Manitoba Hansard — 6 July 1993 (Sitting 95, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-95

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Fourth Session ·Thirty-Fifth Legisl ature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL XLII No. 95 • 1 :30 p.m., TUESDAY, JULY 6, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE. ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglsll:�ture Members, Constituencies and Poli tical Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARST AIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LA URENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Hei!�hts Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine Riv,er Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordis1 Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon E:ast Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Bonifa<:e Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point DOU!Jias Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Greek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin lac du Bo nnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mou1ntain Broadway Kirkfield Pa1rk AinAon La V erendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan Rive1r Rossmere Rupertsland The Maple!s PARTY.

Liber al NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liber al PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

51 40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, July 6, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would rise on a Matter of Privilege. Mr. Speaker, in accordance to our rules, it is imperative that when a Matter of Privilege or a violation of privileges has occurred, one has to bring it to the attention of this Chamber at the first opportunity. This is in fact the first opportunity that I have in bringing the attention of this particular issue to the Chamber . Last night, Mr.

Speaker, in the Com mittee of Supply, in one of the committee rooms outside of the Chamber, we saw a deviation from the rule book, which I believe is very undemocr atic and very unfortunate for all members of this Chamber. What occurred was-Rule 64.1 (9)(

c) provides that "the estimates of a department shall not be introduced after 10 :00 o'clock p.m." We know from the past , when the government House leader has stood up and asked for leave, unanimous consent to allow for other departme nts to in fact be introduced and got that unanimous consent from within the Chamber, not within the committee, Mr. Speaker, the gove rnment House leader himself knows full well that what occurred last night was in fact a violation of a very important rule. I want to comment in terms of what actually took place.

Yesterday, I, myself, had done some consulti ng with the Clerk' s Office just for a clarification of a rule. I felt that it was important that we are assured and know in terms of what the proper procedures are of this Chamber. The rule book is very clear if you read Rule 64.1 (9)(c), very clear. After ten o'clock, you cannot introduce any other departments. Mr. Speake r, what had happened was there was Civil Service and Housing inside the Cham ber.

It was after ten o'clock, and once those department s had gone past ten o'clock, the gove rnment in the committee room took advantage of a situation in which one of the opposition parties was not in attendance , and received unanimous consent to bring in another department. This is something that should be protecting all opposition parties. Mr. Speaker, you yourself, if you walk outside of this Chamber after we break into Commi ttee of Supply, quite often you will see the minister and the Chairperson sitting in the Chair.

If the Chai rperson asks , is there unanimous consent that all the departments in this committee room be passed , and bec ause there ar e no opposition parties-and that happens-then the gov ernment can do that. No, they cannot do that. The rules say they cannot do that. The Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) yesterd ay, inside the Chamber, was stand ing up giving his opening remarks as the Minister of Housing, and there was no opposition member in here.

Had the Minister of Housing and the Chairp erson said, is there unanimous consent to allow the Department of Housing and two or three other departments, because there was no opposition member in here, you are sa ying, and you might be arguing that the gove rnment had the ability to do that. * (1 335) Well, Mr. Speaker, that should not be allowed to occur, because the moment that we say what happened last night in committee room, we are setti ng a very danger ous prece dent. We are allowing a gove rnment of a majority to be able to shaft every right, every member's rights inside this Chamber.

I was very dis appointed when I raised it as a point of order. I was disappoint ed-because the concern is, if the right has been violated, the committee continued on in debating Industry and Tra de. Hours went off the clock because of Industry and Trade. I would argue, Mr. Speake r, that Industry and Trade should never have been allowed to come in. The rule book itself says that. The gov ernment House leader might try to justify this by sa ying, well, the rules do not necessarily take into account every possible scenario. Mr.

51 41 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 Speak er, the rules do protect the minorities inside this Chamber. It is important and imperative as legislators that we follow the rules. If you do not want to follow the rules, at least have the tenacity to get the unanimous consent of the Chamber. Do not try to hide around a rock and to change the rules because you, as a gov ernment House leader, might be frustrated because you are not getting things the way you feel you should be getting them. Mr. Speaker, we, too, want to see co-operat ion.

We do want to see the busi ness of this Chamber proce eding, but we are not going to put into jeopardy the rules of this Chamber that we need to rely on in order for this parliamentary process to work. Mr. Speaker, I really and truly believe that the committee should not be meeting again until this matter has been clarified. How can we allow Industry, Trade and Tourism to continue to burn off the hours- Han. Darren Praz nlk {Minister of Labour): Where were you? Mr. Lamoureux: Where people were is irrelevant, to the Minister of labour, Mr. Speaker.

What is relevant is that you have a committee that violated a very serious rule. Mr. Speaker, you are the only one who can defend the rights of the opposition parties, and, in fact, not only the opposition parties but eve ry member inside this Chamber. I ask with all sincerity that you do not allow-or you get an opinion imme dia tely before the comm ittee continues. I do believe that the two hour s or however much time should be taken off the clock, for example, because that committee did not have the mandate to sit last night. They could have had the committee rise.

I, too, want to get into Indu stry, Trade and Tourism . Jobs are very important to the liberal Party. We have been commenting on the economy since this session has been going, but nothing prevented the committee from rising and then we could have gone on. let us not bend the rules and twist the rules of this Chamber in infringing upon the rights of members of this Chamber. It is completely unacceptable, and I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that you review quickly in terms of what actually occurred last night, and come back with the ruling so that what we will see is that the rights of each member are in fact protected .

Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) , that this Hou s,e refer the events which occurred during the meeting of the standing Comm ittee of Supply, July 5, 19 03, which were contrary to Rule 64.1 (9)(c), to the St anding Comm ittee on Privil eges and Elections. *( 13 40) Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leadt.r): Mr. Speaker, certainly the government and I take this issue very seriously, although at times I am kind of bemused at the goings -on of the Li beml Party.

You have a situation where the gove rnment House leader is trying to exert some type Clf lead ership, because obviously there is a leadership void now within that party. That was played out in sp ades last night at appr c•xim ate ly 10 :1 0 when big sm iles were provided by certain members, critics of the Lib eral Party, once they had achieved the ten o'clock-plus time, because, of cou rse, their desire was to frustrate the responsible review of the Estimates as called by the rules of our House. Mr. :Speaker, the leader of the liberal Party (Mr.

Edwards), of course, wants to go back to pizza and beer, as is the liberal trad ition whenever there is a long sitting. They have a long-st anding course of action, of course, whenever we sit late to follow that approach. let me say, Mr. Speaker, again, the member gives his version of what happened last night. I, too, ha1ve read very seriously the rule. I asked for leave of the House yesterday to consider new departments, and yet there are times, from time to time, when sets of circum stances pr esent themsE•Ives which the rules do not contemplate. Mr. Speaker, I say last night was one of them.

We had a situation where a department did not finish. The reason for this rule, "the estimates of a department shall not be introduced after 1 0:00 o'clocl( p.m .,• is to safeguard the fact that a department cannot be run through in a very short period •Jf time with the absence of a particular critic and/or ;a particular party. Now, Mr. Speak er, last nigh t mo st of the membE•rs of this legislature wanted to do work. They wanted to do the people's work. They did not want tc• rise at 10 after 10 , like the liberal Party

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 51 42 want ed to. They want ed to con tinue the examination of certain departments of government. Mr. Speaker, when the Chair of the committee, pr esented with this unprecede nted set of circumstances, asked the committee for direction, those in attendance unanimously supp orted the moving into and the review of a new department, not to complete it, but to consider. Now, Mr.

Speaker, realizing that there were some uncertainties with respect to the approach that was being taken, I personally went and told the critic-1 am led to believe the Indus try, Trade and Tourism critic-that indeed was what was hap pening and tha t we wer e considering the department, and that is indeed of the Liberal Party. So when the member says that we did not let them know, he is not speaking the truth. The reality is he is not speaking the truth. I personally delivered that information to the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), so the third party did know that there was a consideration.

So I say to him that it is important that he provides the truth. Mr. Speaker, I indicate to the individual now, and the memb er s of the Hous e as, indeed , the Chairperson ruled, the Cha irperson ruled to the largest extent possible as under Rule 64, I believe it is, that the rules of the Hous e for the most part should apply to com mittee when these sets of unforeseen circumstances come forward . Indeed, that is what happened-the rules of the House.

Unanimous consent was sought in the committee and was provided by the memb ers ther e in attendance and indeed we now have considered another department. * (1 345) Mr. Speaker, let me make one final point. The memb er says , well, there may have been a problem and therefore he would like to play the whole third period over again, because maybe the referee erred or maybe there was not any rule and until we ge t a rule, let us play the game over again-typical Liberal. I re member the former memb er for Fort Ga rry who wanted to have retroactive insurance, crop insurance.

It seems to be the Liberal bent, that if you do not like what the rules are at the time, let us play the game over. So, Mr. Speaker, I say to the member, he has a poi nt. This is a rule that should probably be revisited, given that there is not a rule that takes into acco unt these sets of circums tance s. Whatever the House wishes to do on this area, but I say as far as the events last night, certainly from the government's point of view, no rule was broken, because the rules did not contemplate this set of events that occurred last night. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of issues raised in the matter of privilege. I first of all want to deal with the procedure. Our rules, Beauchesne is very clear in terms of a matter of privilege. It is not something that is enforced by the Speaker. Your role is to dete rmine strictly whether there is a prima facie case. So I disagree with the Liberal House leader in that regard, although the enforcement of the rules of the Ho use is within the very clearly unde rstood parameters of a matter of privilege.

To the extent to which the Liberals are raising this matter as a breach of the rules of the House, I would suggest that there is a prima facie case. I want to deal with a couple of other issues though, Mr. Speaker, that I think are quite relevant. Let us recognize that this problem arose in this case because the Liberals had no members in the committee. Beauchesne Citation 289, under the heading of Attendance of Member s states, Standing Order 15 states that "every Member is bound to attend the service of the House unless leave of absence has been given him or her by the House." Now, Mr.

Speaker, in practice both in the House of Com mons and in this House, it has been accepted in practice. Beauchesne states that: "The duties of Members have become extremely varied and Members must travel frequently." That rule has not been enforced. I would point out that the difficulty that arose last night in the view of the Liberal Party would not have happened if the Liberals had had a member in that committee. There would have not been a difficu lty in terms of the unanimous consent. I want to deal with another qu es tio n, Mr.

Speaker, that is also relevant because what you are essentially dealing with in this particular case is the question as to whether we are bound by the rules as they appear -and the Liberal Hous e leader (Mr. Lamoureux) is quite correct in terms of the rule that states that departme nts should not be called after ten o'clock-or whether the fact that committees do have control over their own sitting

514 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 and do in many ways have the powers, subject to a number of limitations, of the House. I point out that Beauchesne's Citation 18 deals with the unanimous consent within the House, Mr. Speaker, and I want to state very clearly, the question here is whether this also applies into Comm ittee of Supply. Beauchesne's Citation 18 ,

Section (1 ) says: "Within the ambit of its own rules, the House itself may proceed as it chooses; it is a common practice for the Hous e to ignore its own rules by unanimous consent. Thus, bills may be passed through all their stages in one day, or the House may decide to alter its normal order of business or its adjou rnment hour as it sees fit." I would also point out that Beauchesne's Citation 19 states very clearly that: "Whenever the Hous e proceeds by way of unanimous consent, that procedure does not constitute a precedent." So, Mr.

Speaker, let there be no doub t that what happened last night did not set a prece dent, regardless of the House's ruling. [interjection] Well, if the Liberal Leader (Mr. Edwards) wishes to read Beauchesne, the point is that regardless of what happened yester day, whether it was in order or not, Beauchesne is very clear that it does not set a precedent. I think there are a number of questions that have arisen out of what happened yesterday. I would point out that unanimous consent was reached in a com mittee not to pass the Ci vil Service Commi ssion.

At that point in time it was not passed until the end of the committee hearing to make sure that there was ample opportunity for all members to be there. • (1 350) I point out that the department, Mr. Speaker, did not complete its considerations. There may be some ques tion that arises as to whether it was in order to pass motions. It may or may not have been in order to have de bated , by le ave , essentially, the matters of I, T and T, but I think there is some question as to whether any motions that were passed yesterday were in order.

I think there also are some questions in terms of the time allocation, but I do think that this is not the NHL. We do not have instant replays, and we cannot wind the clock back quite the sam e. I would suggest that the Liberal motion, while I do not agree with all the arguments put forward by the Liber al House leader (Mr. Lamoureux), would perhaps be of assistance here in the sense that this is something that should be referred to the Rules Comm ittee. I point out, Mr.

Speaker, that the Rules Comm ittee has not met, I think, for something like nine or 10 years, and I would sugg est that we might want to consider it. I know ther e have been discussions between all parties, perhaps dealing with the many ambiguities that occur in our rules, and I think this is indic ative of it, where you have a rule, you have clear precedence in terms of unaniimous consent. The real question here is whether the com mittee had the ability, through unanimous consent, to do what it did. Mr.

Speaker, the correct thing I would suggest to you i:s to deal with it as a prima facie case of privilege which I believe it is, to put the motion to the Hc)use and the House will deal with the motion. I thin�: the appropriate way would be for the House to send this to the Rules Commi ttee. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank all honourable members for the advice on this matter. Indeed, a matter of privilege is a very serious matter. I will take this opportunity to advise the House that I am going to tak e this matter under adviSE1ment.

I will be perusing Hansard as to what was said today on this matter of privilege, and I will return to the House with a ruling on said issue. PR ESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Dave Chomlak {KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to' present the petition of Deborah Nytepchuk, Joann Shields, Marie Killbery and other s requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restori ng the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. Mr. Jim Maloway {Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Richard Tytgat, Dan Desautels, Phillys Barnes and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) consider restoring the Child ren's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. REJ�DING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. S1)88ker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Storie). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed)

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 514 4 Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHER EAS there is a very serious solvent abuse problem in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS according to the RCM P over 1 00 crimes in Thompson alone in 19 92 were linked to solvent abuse; and WHER EAS there are no facilities to deal with solvent abuse victims in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS for over three years, the provincial gove rnment failed to proclaim the private member's anti-sniff bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize minors buying solvents even though there are no treatment facilities in northern Manitoba; and WHER EAS for nine years, the 25 Chie fs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, su pported by medical officials, police and the area Member of Parliament, have proposed a pilot treatm ent project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and WHERE AS su ccessive feder al Ministers of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and WHER EAS the Manitoba provincial gove rnment has a responsibility to ensure that there is adequate treatment for solvent abuse.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Asse mbly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the est ablishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. * * * Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Plohman). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and WHERE AS several studies have pointed out the cost sa vings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Prog ram; and WHERE AS the Children's Dental Program has been in effec t for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WHER EAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 de ntists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and WHER EAS preve ntative health care is an essential component of health care reform.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Asse mbly of Manitoba may be pleased to req uest the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restor ing the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Santos) . It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highes t rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Progr am; and WHER EAS several studies have pointed out the cost sa vings of preventative and treatment health care progr ams such as the Children's Dental Program; and WHERE AS the Children's Dental Program has been in effec t for 17 ye ars and has been recognized as extremely cos t-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WHERE AS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 de ntists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and WHERE AS preve ntative health car e is an essential component of health care reform .

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Asse mbly of Manitoba may be pleased to req uest the Minister of Health (Mr.

514 5 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 Orchard) consider res toring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. * (1 355) Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Clif Evans). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed) Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Progr am; and WHER EAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Prog ram; and WHERE AS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WHER EAS the provincial gove rnment did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 den tists, nurses and assis tants providing this service; and WHER EAS preven tative health care is an essential component of health care reform.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisla tive Ass emb ly of Manitoba may be pleased to reques t the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider resto ring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. PR ESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairper son of Committees): Mr. Speak er, the Comm ittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. *** Mr. Jack Reimer (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Economic Development): Mr. SpeaktH, I beg to present the Sixth Report of the Commii ttee on Economic Development. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Com m1ittee on Economic Development presents the follc,wing as its Sixth Report.

Your committee met on Thursday, June 17 , at 7 p.m.; Friday, June 18 , 19 93, at 1 p.m.; Tuesd ay, June 2:2, 19 93, at 9 a.m.; Thursday, June 24, 19 93, at? p.m.; Friday, June 25, 199 3, at 1 p.m.; Monday, June 213, 19 93, at 9 a.m.; Tuesday, June 29, 19 93, at 9 a.m. and 7 p.m.; Wednesday, June 30, 19 93, at 4 p.m. iin Room 255; and Monday, July 5, 19 93, at 9 a.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to conside•r bills referred. At the June 17 , 19 93, 7 p.m. meeting, your committee elected Mr. Penner as chairperson. At the June 18 , 19 93, 1 p.m. meeting, your committee elected Mr. Reimer as Chairperson.

Your committee adopted at its June 17 , 19 93, 7 p.m. moeting, the following motions: MOT ION: THA T as a result of the la rge numb er of Manitobans wishing to make public representation to this s:tand ing committee considering Bill 22, and given that all presenters should be given a fair allocatie>n of time, at a reasonable hour of the day, THAT a.ll presenters be allocated a maximum of 15 minutes: for their presentations, including the time required to ask and answer all questions put by membe1rs of the committee.

MOTIOiN: THAT tlhe motion before us be amended to allow presentc9rs not a maximum of 15 minutes, but 20 minutes for presentations and questions on Bill 22. MOTIOIN: THAT this committee not sit past midnight at any future sitting in regard to Bill 22, and that out-of town pn�senters be accommod ated first, wherever possible• at the beginning of committee hearings. Your committee adopted at its June 29, 19 93, 7 p.m. meeting, the following motion: MOTIOIN: From this point forward for the consideration of Bill 22, no person who has ind icated their desire to present to this committee, shall have their name,

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 51 46 their organization's name, or a combination of the above, called more than twice. Your committee heard representation on the bill as follows: Bill 22- The Public Sector Reduced Work Week and Com pens ation Management Act;

Loi sur Ia reduction de Ia semaine de travail et Ia gestion des salaires dans le secteur public Len Howell - Private Citizen Kathy Ducharme - Private Citizen Nancy Riche - Canadian Labour Congress Bria n Ar den - Thompson Tea chers' Assoc iation Enid Leskiw and John Cha laturnyk - Retired Teachers' Assoc iation of Manitoba Evan Casse lman- Turtle Mountain Teachers' Association John Rennie and Barbara Keh rste phan - Portage Teachers' Association Jud y Se wer - Bir dtail River Teachers' As sociation Peter Dyck - Private Citizen Darryl Ger vais - Pelly Trail Teach ers' Association Alan Schroeder - Private Citizen Steven Roznowsky - Private Citizen Bill Vail- Private Citizen Ron Mclean - Canadian Federation of Labour Bill Featherstone - International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 2034 Lyle Stevenson - Private Citizen Robert Dooley - International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers Local 435 Peter Olfert - Manitoba Go ve rnment Employees Union Jeff Brown - Private Citizen Deborah Jamer son - Private Citizen Patti Pugh - Private Citizen Gail Wat son - Manitoba Association of School Trustees Ron Tummon - Private Citizen Ron Kristjansson - Private Citizen Mel Willis - Private Citizen Kelly Ivory - Private Citizen Ray Benoit - Private Citizen Lillian Bouderlique - Private Citizen Myrna Phillips - Private Citizen Ron Wally - Man.

Assoc. of Health Care Professionals Brenda Froese - Private Citizen Clarence Clarke - Private Citizen Susan Har t- Kulbaba - The Manit ob a Federation of Labour Neil Harden - Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada George Bergen - Private Citizen Maureen Hancharyk- Manitoba Nurses' Union Glen McCoubrey - Private Citizen Diane DeDelley - Private Citizen Gaynor Powell - Te lecommun ic ati ons Employees Ass ociation of Manitoba (TEAM) David Turner - Manitoba Teachers' Society Bob Davies - Winnipeg Teachers' Society Levi Reimer - Seven Oaks Teach ers ' Association Marilyn von Stein - Charleswood Jr.

High Neil MacNeil - Lakeshore Teachers' Association Ge off Tuckwell - Transcona -Spring field Teachers' Associati on Dave Normandale - Private Citizen David Lerner - Private Citizen Bob Bastable - Regional Su pport Ce ntre Daerwood School Jim Nickarz - Private Citizen Rollie Gilles - Interlake Teachers' Association Richa rd Rober tson - Manit ob a Sch ool Councillors Ass ociation Bill Smith - Private Citizen Joan Seller and Jud y Darc y - CUPE - Canadian Union of Public Employees Denis Fitzpatrick - Private Citizen Chris Thain - Private Citizen Linda Geary - Private Citizen Bill Hales - Private Citizen Lewis Coelho - Private Citizen Bernice Bryan - Private Citizen

514 7 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 Debbie Meilleux-Reid - Private Citizen Blair Hamilton- Private Citizen William Sumerlus - Private Citizen Patrick McDonnell - Private Citizen Sel Burrows - Private Citizen Mark Olafson - Private Citizen Ed Blackman - Private Citizen Dave Hardy - Private Citizen Barry Hammond - Private Citizen Richard Orlandini - Private Citizen Paul Mois t - CUPE - National Research Department George Harris - Private Citizen Don Sullivan - Private Citizen Nicole Campbell - Private Citizen Stephen Holborn - Private Citizen David Johns - Private Citizen Marie Speare - Private Citizen Dr.

Dan Gietz - Private Citizen Mark Golden - Private Citizen Jessie Vorst - Private Citizen Paul Forti er - Private Citizen Paul Phillips - Private Citizen Tom Booth - Ma nitoba Organization of Faculty Association Richard Park - Private Citizen Dr. lan Goldstine - Ma nitob a Me dical Association Jim Silver - Choic es Aian DeJar din - Private Citizen Ken Guilford - Private Citizen Dr.

John Loxley - Private Citizen Tracy Libi tka, S hauna MacKinnon and Twilla MacDonald - Private Citizens Mark Gabbert - Private Citizen Micha el Sha w - Canadian Union of Educational Workers Kenneth Emberley - Private Citizen Robert Chernomas - President , U of M Faculty Association Diane O'Neil - Private Citizen Jettie Zwiep - Private Citizen Barry Wo lfe - River Eas t Teachers' Association Mary Wallace - CUPE Local 500 - Hospital Unit Richard Sparling - Private Citizen Robert Hilliard - Private Citizen Lau rie Todd- Private Citizen Kerniel Aasland - Private Citizen William Seymour - Private Citizen Bernie Lopko - Private Citizen Ostap Hawaleshka - Private Citizen Written Submissions: E:ster Fyk - Private Citizen Oiale Yeo - Private Citizen Hazel Anderson - Private Citizen Jack Boyko - Private Citizen Alvin Fu nk (Chair pe rson) - Intermountain T4 9a cher s' Association Prof essional D49Velopment Commi ttee Bc>ris Bugera - Private Citizen TEtachers - Goose Lake High Barb Grexton - Private Citizen Staff - Rorketon School Katherine Bellemare - Private Citizen Staff - Gilbert Plains Collegiate Staff - Reston Collegiate Institute Carole Free - Resource Teacher, St.

George School Rc1bert Rondeau - Private Citizen V. Stephenson - White Horse Plains Teachers' As.sociation Sharon Woodman - Private Citizen RLiss Reid - Private Citizen Jan Chaboyer - MGEU, Local 2003, Brandon University Bo'b Babey - Agassiz Teachers' Association Er rol Black - Brandon Univer sity Faculty Association John Blaike - Private Citizen Jo:seph Dolecki - Private Citizen Be·tty Granger and Mr. Krahn - Winnip eg School Division No. 1

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 51 48 Barry Wittev rongel - St. Vital Tea cher s' Assoc iation Your committee has considered: Bill 22- The Public Sector Reduced Work Week and Compe nsation Management Act; Loi su r Ia reduction de Ia semaine de travail et Ia gestion des salaires dans le secteu r public and has agreed to re port the sam e with the following amendment: MOTION: THAT

section 16 be renumbered as su bsection 16 (1 ) and that the following be added as subsection 16 (2) : Arbitration proceedings void 16(2) On the com ing into force of this act, no arbitration proceedings relating to compensation for medical practitioners for the 19 93-94 year may be comme nced or continued, and any such proceedings, including any decision by a board of arbitration, are void and of no effect. All of which is respectfully submi tted. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honour able memb er for St. Norber t (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of The Surface Rights Board for the 19 92-93 year. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I dir ect the attention of honourable members to the loge to my right, where we have with us this afternoon Mr. Bob Banman, the former member for La Verendrye. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon, sir. Also with us this afternoon, sea ted in the Speaker's Gallery, we have Mr.

Guy Brown, the MLA for Cumb erland Cen tre from Nova Scotia, and also !'honorable Marcelle Mersereau, deputee de Bathurst. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. We also have seven adul t student visitors from The Original Women's Network. They are under the dir ection of Ms. Doreen Emms and Rhonda McOrister. This training centre is conducted in the constituency of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes).

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. * (1 400) ORAL QUESTION PE RIOD Home Care Program Homemaking services Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, it has been more than a year now that this go vernment has been talking about a rational ap proach to health care reform and putting community care in place before cutting institutional care. Regrett ably, we have seen very little evidence of that to date. Mr. Speaker, today I am tabling a letter from the head of geriatric medicine at St.

Boniface General Hospital in which he says: • . .. many patients are independent in self-care but need some help with domes tic care in order to achieve independence in the co mmunity. This, presuma bly, is the very objective of our curr ent health care policies. Removing these community supports will jus t keep people in institutional care longer and is the very negation of all that we are working for." Dr. Powell goes on to say that this gov ernment's changes to Home Care mean giving a greater sense of gloom that "Health Care Deform" has actu ally disi nteg rated into a money -sa ving operation. Mr.

Speaker, given that very serious letter, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today if he can as sur e this House and the people of Manitoba who depend on Home Care services that there will be services available so that people who may not be able and should not have to pay for private homemaking services- which is something his own Minister of Health has advocated-can be dis charged from hospital and can achieve an independent life with dignity in their own homes in their own community? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, that is exactly the intent of the progr am, and that continues to be the intent of the program.

514 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 Now, Mr. Speaker, I find it quite interesting that, again, the member for St. Johns was around the cabinet table that established Support Services to Seniors in 19 85, wherein senior citizens assessed for home care , for housecl eaning, for meal preparation, for laundry services, would be referred to buy those services, to purchase those services from Su pport Services to Seniors groups which would be started up with mo de st volunteer co-ordinator fundi ng. That policy is exactly the policy that is in place today .

I find it quite interesting that my honourable friend the member for St. Johns today says that policy of Howard Pawley, when she was in cabinet deciding for that policy, implementing that policy, advocating that policy in 19 85, all of a sudden she finds it to be contrary. Mr. Speaker, that is not so. Mr. Speaker, the NDP in 19 85 saw the need to invest in more intensive service deliver y in home care, and that where possible seniors would be referred to outside, paid-for housecleaning, meal preparation and laundry where they had the ability to arrange that.

That policy has been in place since 19 86 under the NDP. It works except ionally well. It has allowed the NDP and this government to continue to purchase more needed services to maintain the independent living all of us so desire for our senior citizens under the auspices and the assistance of the Home Care Progr am . Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Again, for the record, the minister should know, and I hope the Premier knows, that back in 19 85, the go vernm ent su pported a community-sponsored initiative. It did not make a single change to Home Care, did not cut anyone off Home Care services.

Let me ask the Premier, since again the Minister of Health is so evasive about what changes they are making, what is the real story? According to Dr. Powell, a meeting took place on June 23 where case co-ordinators were informed there would be no homemaking service for clients from Septe mber henceforth. Is the homemaking service being cut completely, or will home support services only be provided to clients who have medical care requirements? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speake r, exactly the same assessment criteria will be made today as was made in 19 85, 19 86, 19 87, 19 88, where this is a single service for the individual, and the individual has the ability to arrange for those services. Be it from Sup port Ser vices to Sen iors or oth er providers, the individual will be referred to alternate servi,oes and will purchase those services, just as the policy under stood and committed to do in 19 85 that my honourable friend do es not want to acknowledge was par t of her cabinet decision-making process in 19 85. Now, Mr.

Speak er, my honourable friend, I look forwtud to seeing the geriatrician's letter because while we are on the topic, one might consider the comments of Dr. Stuart Hampton, geriatric medical consultant, and his quote is: I think it is obviously sending a message out that people have to be more self-reliant and utilize other resources in the community. I would hope that it could stre ngthen other aspects of Home Care which are the nursing, the bathing and the personal care kinds of things that Home Care really does very well indeed. Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the policy we are following.

That was the policy that my honourable friends the New Democrats put in place in 19 85, followed diligently, with many seniors having to purchase housecleani ng, meal preparation and laundry, 19 86, 19 87, as a result of the policy they put in place. Thtrf only thing that ha s ch ang ed is New Demc•crats are now in opposit ion. Ms. Wasylycl a-Lels: Well, Mr. Speaker, what has chan�1ed is that thousands of people have been cut off of IHome Care by this minist er. Let me ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) again, since we am getting no clear answers from the Minister of He al1th about the fact tha t this is such an inexptmsive, preventative part of the Home Care Progr am. I want to ask the Premier if he will look into th e basis for which Home Care was established to begin with and consider the words of one of the founders of that progr am, Jean ette Block, who states that the homemaking component is an essential par t of Home Care. It is an inexpEmsive component and it is preventative.

How does thi s Pr emier ju stify cutting or eliminating a mos t cost-ef fective , preventative aspect of our health care progr am? Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr. Speaker, you know, my hono u rable friend keeps aski ng for mo re information on the Home Care Progr am, which I provided in a great amount of detai l, although my hon ourable friend was not presen t for that

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 51 50 discussion of the Estimates, but I provided a sub stantial amount of detail as to exactly what we expected the shifts in care to be in the Home Care Program this year over previous years. Mr. Speaker, that is why the program has grown from $34 million when we first came to gov ernment to $68 million today. That is why we purchase continually more volumes, more hours of nursing services, more volumes of VON services, and that continues this year.

My honourable friend the New Democrat-and I will provide her with information as soon as I can put it together in my office, but in 19 86, there were literally thousands of Manitobans, seniors, who had to buy housecleaning services, laundry services and meal preparation because of the policy my honourable friends the New Democrats put in place in 19 85. Mr. Speaker, it allowed the program to deliver medic al care, which is what Dr.

Hamp ton is referring to, which is exactly wher e we have re inves ted tho se dol lars, back into mo re sophistic ated, mo re needed care , to maintain independent living for a longer period of time in a senior's own home. * (1 41 0) Home Care Program Homemaking Services Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, if the minister had provided that information, why does the good doctor's letter therefore state that no information was provided, and why were caregivers not provided with it? But my question to the minister, Mr.

Speaker, is: Why does the Manitoba League of the Physically Handicapped have to have a special meeting today to find out whether their members are going to be cut off from the minister's program ? Why is he not telling us who is being affected and how many thousands are being cut off? Will he simply state that information? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Well, Mr. Speake r, while my honourable friend is wanting complete information, first of all, my honourable friend might reconsider the phrase he has used that 1, 500 home support workers will be laid off.

That is inaccu rate , and that was a state ment of my honourable friend in Question Period. Mr. Speaker, I have told all who have asked that that is not an accu rate sta tement by the New Democrat. There will be reduced hours which I explained in the Es timates process, as it was the year before, as it has been every year that Sup port Services to Seniors has been put in place by the New Democrats.

Secondly, I want to indi cate to my honourable friend that there will be a number of Manitobans on reasses sment as of Septe mber 3-not immediately as my honourable friend the New Democratic critic has alleged-who will have Home Care services, which involve, singly, housecleaning, laundry, meal preparation, referred to paid-for suppliers, as has been done since 19 86. That process will take place from now until Septe mber 3. It is not today, as my honourable friend the New Democrat has alleged in some of his sta tements inside and outside the House. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is to this minister.

Can the minister advise me whether or not individuals who are living independently, disabled individuals who are living indep endently, in focus and clus ter housing, su ppo rted by Ten Ten Sinclair, whether or not their home care will be cut off?-because Ten Ten phoned me this morning to ask whether or not that is the case from this minister who is supposedly so forthcoming and has provided all this information and has changed the policy dramatically since 19 85. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend said I have changed the policy dramatically si nce 19 85.

At least my honou rable friend is now recog nizing that in 19 85, Su pport Services to Seniors was introduced by the government of the day which happened to be Howard Pawley, which happened to be New Democrat, which happened to bring in the process where housecleaning services, meal preparation and laundry would be paid for by those individuals assessed by Continuing Care as needing that service, and the individuals would pay for that service since 19 85. Finally, my honourable friend has acknowledged that new prog ram. Now, Mr.

Speaker, discussions with Conti nuing Care, Ten Ten Sinclair and all user groups are in process now, and those very que stions will be answered in collaboration with those organizations. But let me tell my honourable friend that we value the su ppor t that Ten Ten Sin clair provides to

51 51 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 independen t living, to the ability for disable d Manitobans to enjoy a very, very more complete lifestyle through the provision of services that are available through Ten Ten Sinclair, and that will continue. Mr. Chomlak: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister at least outline for us, if this program is so valuable in keeping people independent in the community, why he has cut $3 million from this bu dget, why thousands of people are going to be cut off this prog ram, why all of the caregivers, the doctors, the service providers, nurses who are writing us, did not know the program was being cut, why he is doing this and why he is changing the program that has been the most effective and recognized in Cana da since it was brought in? Mr.

Orchar d: Why, Sir, might I rhetorically ask, has my honourable friend already forgotten what he stat ed, that in 19 85, that was the intention of the New Democrats in gov ernment, to allow, where the services can be su pported by Support Services to Seniors, for sen iors to purchase housecleaning, meal preparation and laundry? Now, that is what we are continuing to do. We have since 19 88 and we did in this budget. Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend asks why. Why did we remove those $3 million estimated services?

To reinvest them into nursing services which is expected to be up by 11 percent this year over last, to reinvest them into home support work which is expected to increase by 8 or 9 percent, all of which I shared in full detail with my honourable friend in the Esti mates process, outlining the increased number of people to be served, the increased number of hours of service provision by nursing, by home support workers, by therapy, all of which is an increase in service. I will provide my honourable friend the page number in Hansard so he can refer to that and refresh his memory of week-old information.

Property Classifications Large Lots-Rural Mr. Paul Edwa rds (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs. In Februar y of 19 92, when we were discussing in this House the Hea din gley secession bill, the minis ter sta ted : Many had cr itici zed the gove rnment's decision to allow Hea dingle y to sec erde on the gr ounds that it signalled the beginning of the end of Unicity and that that was a wron!g perception.

He went on to say : Given the very special circumstance of Headingley, I would suggest to the members that ther e is no legitimate basis for conclluding that allowing Headingley to secede means othe r com munities will be permitted to withdraw one by one over time. I can assure you this in not the government's intention, nor will that hap��n. Now, Mr. Speaker, since that time, we have now learnt�d that the minister has indulg ed in threats , which can only lead to a further escalating of the diviskm between St. Germain, Vermette and the City orf Winnipeg. Mr.

Sp eaker, my qu estion for the ministe r: Based on the sta tement yesterday from the deputy mayor that they proposed that the province create a sepa rate classification for large- lot properties in 19 89, did the province, in fact, get that request from the '�ity in 19 89 to crea te that sep ar ate classi fication? If so, why did they turn it down? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minis ter of Urban Affairs): Mr. Spea lker, yes, indeed, the City of Wi nnipeg did provide a request to change or to add another residetntial category to the three categories already exi stEmt in the portioning and classification of property.

The1y wanted an R-4 classification for large-lot residential property to apply, not just to Winnipeg. They wanted that to apply to the entire province of Manitoba, that all of a sudde n, now, large-lot properties in the Rural Municipality of Woodlands or in the Rural Municipality of Dauphin or in Swan River 'or any place in rural Manitoba would have the same applicati on, whether or not there was a problem and whether or not new problems would be c1reated by pro viding a classifi cation province-wide over all those municipalities.

So I sugges ted at the time to the City of Winnipeg that this was not necessari ly a classific ation probh�m , as far as that was concerned, but a taxation problem related to Winnipeg, and that a taxatic>n problem related to Winnipeg required a Winnipeg solution. There was no point in attempting to maneuver a new classification and apply it province-wide to create a whole new set of problems elsewhere in

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 51 52 our province, Mr. Speaker, rather than trying to deal with a Winnipeg problem with a Winnipeg solution. Mr. Edwards: That is absolutely ridiculous. We have

an act called The City of Winnipeg Act. This is the Minister of Urban Affairs. There is one urban centre under his jurisdiction. It is Winnipeg. Mr. Sp eak er, he could have dealt with this problem in Winnipeg for Winnipeg and for the people who were in Winnipeg until he created other jurisdictions. My question for the minister: Why is he refusing to do what would solve this problem accord ing to the city, according to the people who live in the outlying regions who are frustra ted with their taxation situation? Why is he passing the buck?

Why does he not solve the problem, instead of being a problem creator by making this type of threat, which can only make this situation worse? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) sugg ests I should read The City of Winnipeg Act. The member for St. James ought to read what legislation there is in this provi nce, because all asses sment, classification included, is included in The Ass essment Act that applies province-wide, not just to the city of Winnipeg. All assessments are equal across the whole province, not jus t in the city of Winnipeg. What has happened, of course, Mr.

Speaker, is since that time, as well, we are addressing the situation of problems associated with differences in residential cate gories, the fact that re ntal accommodation is diff erent from a condom inium accommodation that is different from an ownership, rental or occupied in a single-family residence situation. What we are doing over a period of time is trying to meld those together so that all residential properties pay a single rate of portioning. The problem, as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, and I understand his naivety, the member for St.

James, that he does not unde rstan d how municipal government works and so on, but the fact of the ma tter is it is a taxation proble m, not an assessment one. It is a Winnipeg problem, not a Manitoba overall problem, and it needs a solution related to the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Edwards: This minister is abrogating his responsi bility. He knows full well that The Mu nicipal Asses smen t Act exem pts cer tain sections and defers to The City of Winnipeg Act. The City of Winnipeg Act, itself, specifically sets out provisions dealing with taxation, dealing with these issues.

He could very easily deal with this matter under his jurisdiction in The City of Winnipeg Act, Mr. Speak er. Is he saying that this reason, which I believe is a false reason, is the only reason he can come up with, that he will not act to solve this problem for the people of this city? • (1 420) Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Second Opposition Party had bothered to follow this issue at all, he would have known that two years ago, I wrote to the City of Winnipeg-! have been writi ng to them ever si nce-p roposi ng alternatives to deal with this specific issue .

I offered to the Ci ty of Winnipeg a potential solution, legislatively created under The City of Win nipeg Act, that would have allowed them to solve not only the problem with respect to St. Germai n, it would have solved the problem for Headingley without having to take the kind of action that ultimately was taken. It wou ld have , and still would, resolve the problem with respect to south St. Norbert, to the south Ch arles wood group of peopl e, south Transcona, east St.

Boniface and Old Kildonan, all of the areas where there are large-lot, unserviced residential properties, the cost of which would have been approximately $900,000, about half of what they lost when Headingley left Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, the City of Winnipeg turned that down flat and dreamt up this idea of a new category for assessm ent which had nothing to do with the problem. I offered them a solution; they turned it down. Pharma care Reimbursement Delays Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway) : Mr. Speaker, since variety is the spice of life, I am going to deliver this quotation in a different way.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under Heaven, a time to get and a time to lose and a time to have and a time to cast away. Mr. Speak er, there is a time to file a Pharmacare refund claim, and there is a time to expect the reimbursement cheque. We know one claimant who sent his claim, registered mail, by the

51 53 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 6, 19 93 beginning of April, and when he checked, they had no record of it. We also have another claimant who delivered his claim by hand, and when he called to find out, the clerk there blamed the Post Office and said it is now taking about eight weeks. When we phoned Pharmacare, 786-71 41 , we were told there were two to three weeks additional backlog. Mr.

Sp eaker, to the honour able Minister of Health: Given this go vernment's ca llous and unforgiving treatment of seniors with respect to deadl ines in filing Pharmacare claims, how does this ministe r ju st ify this double stan dar d of unreasonable delay to seniors who are now waiting for their reimbursement? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the song-making of my honourable friend leaves me speechless, but not willing yet to recommend him to a record company. Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend persists in indicating that seniors are the ones who failed to file before April 30.

I want to tell my honourable friend that when he says that, he does a disservice to seniors. Very few se niors missed the deadl ine of April30. My honou rable friend mentioned two specific circums tances, one of them registered mail and the other one a hand-del ivered application dropped off pr esu ma bly at the Pha rmacare offi ce. Mr. Speaker, I would very muc h apprecia te my honou rable friend sharing both of thos e circums tances with me so I can investigate them, because something would seem to be amiss, particularly with a registered mail delivery if it was on time. Mr.

Speaker, I want to indic ate to my honourable friend that with the April 30 deadl ine, a vast majority of our claims are filed in that last week or so period of time. We bring on additional staff for a shor t period of time to expedite claims, but, yes, there is an additional two- to three-week lag time in getting refund cheques out because of the substantial increase in claims at the end of the year. Mr. Santos : Mr.

Speaker, in view of the gove rnment's workweek and wage reduction policy whereby certain employees who want to work on Fridays cannot, what steps will this minister take in order not to force seniors to suffer this kind of unreasonable delay? Mr. Or chard: Well, Mr. Speaker, the one thing we did as of 19 88, one of the very first things I did when we came into govern ment on May 9 was to authorize additional staff to clear up a backlog which the previous adm inistration-my honourable friend was not part of it at that time-had allowed to build up, so there were three- and four-month delays: as of 19 88. Mr.

Speaker, at this time of the year, yes, we have a longer period of time for refund, but we have for the' last six filing years brought on substantial additional part-time staff to expedite the refunds. Many of them are received in the month of April, and probably two-thirds of our claims go out in a short period of time. We have consistently brought forward additional staff ever since I first walked into the office on May 9, 19 819, to expedite that refund to all Manitobans, Sir. Northe rn Manitoba Emergency Telephone System Mr. Jetrry St orie (FIIn Flon): Mr.

Speaker, the events of last week have been quite disastrous for a lot of co mmunities. Unfortunately, they could have been more disa strous in terms of personal welfaret in many communities in northern Manitoba. Apart from the difficulties experienced in Lynn Lake as a result of the fire, the flooding in Swan River knocked out the telephone system in virtually all of northeastern Manitoba . On Su nday, on Monday, it was almost impossible to reach any community in the northeastern part of the province.

My question is to the Minister responsible for MTS, the acting minister, or perhaps the Minister responsible for the Emer gency Me asu res Organi;�ation. Why is there no alternative co mmunications networl<, microwave network, some other network available to northern com munities so they will never again be isolated the way they have been as a result of the incidents in the last week, so that in the ev•ent of an emer gen cy, for exam ple, the medical air flight evacuation plane can get into a community to rescue someone? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Government Servlcets): Mr.

Speaker, I will take down some information for the Minister responsi ble for Teleph<>nes. HowEtver, I would like to instruct the member for Flin Flon that there was a temporary syste m set up very, VEtry shortly after the main tower went down

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 51 54 and after the main cable, as I explained yester day, was severed. What they have been doing is mo nitori ng the calls and ma king sur e the emergency calls were handled. Under my leader ship, we are now doing a mobile study that will try to connect the highways and all emergency measures throughout the province. I wish the member, when he was in cabinet, had looked at an emer genc y situa tion, and these people would not be inconvenienced today, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, there is no com muni cations network.

The people in South Indian Lake, for example, did not know that they were to use an alternative. When they dial zero, they get no resp ons e . They sim ply cannot, and that is ·o ccurring for more than 24 hours. My question is simple. I am not placing blame. I am asking the minister respons ible, what is going to be done to ensure that an alternative means of emergency communication is available in remote co mmunities, sign ificant-sized commu nities in northern Manitoba?-a simple, straig htforward question. Mr. Ducharme: Mr.

Speaker, what I explained yesterday and explained outside this House was that we are looking at a mobile syste m. As the member can realize and is yelling across the floor, put in a 91 1, well, 91 1 is not the answer when you cannot have an immedi ate rescue to the situation. A mobile system is being looked at. I disagree with the member. There was access to the mobile lines and to the telephone lines as a result of emergencies. They were handled very, very fast by EMO. • (1 430) Disaster Assistance Lynn Lake Area Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon) : Mr.

S peaker, given that there are likely to be literally hundr eds of individual and community-based claims as a result of the fire in Lynn Lake , can the minis te r responsible for emer gency measures tell this House when represe ntatives from the Dis aster Assistance Board will be available or whether they will be available in Lynn Lake, so people will have a face-to-face opportunity to explain their circum stances and to seek compensation and redress in a reasonable fashion? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Government Services) : Mr.

Speaker, the member well knows that there is a process in place, a cost -sharing agreement with the federal gove rnment. I have notified the federal go vernment in regard to the disasters in the northern area. That is done by this minister. He also should know, with his experience, that local municipalities have these types of forms to fill out, and also our EMO, Dis aste r Assistance constantly works with the municipalities in the area. They work with them, and some of them are working in those particular areas now. No-Fault Auto Insurance Top-Up Insurance Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, one of the consequences of the government's policy to reduce benefits available from the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation is the creation of a private market for what the gove rnment describes as top-up insurance. I wonder if the Minister responsible for MPIC can tell us whether or not he has had discussions with private insurance companies about filling this gap. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the adminis tration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act) : Mr.

Speaker, I have not met on a one-to-one basis with the companies, but I have made inquiries about the availability of additional income insurance, and I made inquiries regarding the availability of this type of insurance or the demand for this type of insurance under the Quebec sys tem. As a matter of fact, the dem and under the Quebec system has not been very high. Mr. Alco ck: Mr. Speak er, could the minister describe for us the esti mated size of this market here in this province, given the workup that they did prior to introducing this new policy? Mr.

Cummings: As I indi cated, I made inquiries as to the demand for this service in the one other jurisdiction that uses this syste m, and the demand was not high. Our plan does cover a much greater percentage of the community to 90 percent of their net income. It seems to me that leaves a fairly small market that would be potentially covered in this province. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, the information the government sent out promoting its new policy is adve rtising the need for top-up insurance.

51 55 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA July 6, 19 93 Is it the government's intention to have MPIC provide this insurance? Mr. Cummings: No, it was not our intention that MPIC would venture into this area, but I would assure you and Manitobans that we will be watching the development in this area. It certainly seems to me that the demand will decide whether or not there is an increase in competition for this type of service or whether in fact-and if the member is advoca ting that MPIC should expand its services, then perhaps that is something he might want to advocate when we get the bill into committee.

Senate of Canada Abolition Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Su pport for abolition of the Senate is growing every day in this province and indeed across the country. I was intrigued to note that seve n or eight Premiers su pported the abolition of the Senate, Su nday in Vancouver. What position did the Premier of this province take, and did he agree with the abolition or not? Hon. Gar y Fllmon (Premier ): As usual, the member for Elmwood does not have his facts right. There were only eight Premiers there, and Premier Bourassa, Premier Klein and I did not support.

So he can take his figures from there. I also happen to know that Premier Wells does not su pport abolition, so there could not poss ibly be seven or eight who su pport abolition. Mr. Maloway: If he does not agree then that it should be abolished, would he su pport saving the taxpayers over $50 million a year, and would he agree that abolition of the Senate should at least be put on the ballot along with the federal election? Mr. Fllmon: I know that the abolition of the Senate has been a long-standing New Democratic policy tradition.

I for one, though, believe there has to be an alternative voice for the less populous provinces of Canada in the Gove rnment of Canada, Mr. Speaker. I would not be willing to just simply abolish the existing Sena te without having an answer (interjectlon] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the New Democrats are serious about this. If they were, they would want to listen to the answer. Disaster Area Public Inquiry Lin e Ms. nosann Wow chuk (Swan River) : Mr. Speaker, the flooding situation in Swan River is still very serious; in fact, communities continue to be evacw:ated.

There are many communities stranded and ahso with no telephone service. Yesterd ay, the ministnr gave us a state ment and a briefing, and we apprec:iate that. However, he said that things were well under control and that a public inquiry line was set up so that people who have relatives who are strand4�d could get information. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister why these calls a1re going to the legion hall and a caretaker is answelring the calls, rather than to EMO. It is a very se riol.IS pr oblem. They are not ge tti ng the information. Has this situation been corrected? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Government Service s): Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that they are go1ing to another location. I just talked to the memb4�r who talked to my department late this morning. She could have made the department aware of that at the time instead of waiting until 2: 30 in the afternoon to make them aware. I fulllf briefed the member from across the way, and sh1� has a briefing again at 3:1 5 this afternoon, so I am sure she could bring her concerns, and we will get that question answered for her when she gets he'r briefing at 3:1 5. Ms. W1e>wchuk: Mr.

Speaker, I hope the problem can be corrected because it is serious. Disaster Assistance Swan River Area Ms. Rc)Sann Wowchuk (Swan River): I want to ask the mi nis ter responsible for Disa ster Assistance whether staff has been brought in, whether cabinet has taken the proper steps to allow that disaster assistance be offered in that area and whether there are going to be people in the area very soon to offer assistance to the hundreds of familia�; who have had flood damage to their homes and who are not covered by insu rance at this time. Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Servlct .s): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, the provincial and thn federal governments work with the local

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 51 56 municipalities on a cost -sharing basis. When it is all reassess ed, each municipality is on a per capita basis. I think it is a dollar a head. Anything over a million dollars up to the first $3 million is 50-50 share. After $3 million, it is 75 percent share with the federal go vernment. We have people who are asses sing the situation, and they will be receiving the applications that are avai lable in the different municip alities. They usually come forward to our department and then pass through cabinet through Treasury Board.

So that is how the claims are handled. Disaster Assistance Crop Loss Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Rive r) : Mr. Speaker, the next question I have goes to the Acting Minister of Agriculture. Since there are thousands of acres of crop land that are flooded at the present time and will be in that state for many days to com e, is crop loss covered by Disaster Assistance, or are there any steps being taken to offer assistance to farmers through ano ther channel because of the tremendous loss they are facing and the difficult situation they are facing right now? Hon. Jame s Downey (Act in g Minis ter of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, let me first of all ind icate that any time this kind of dis aster situation takes place , it is very dif ficult for the farm community or anyone to have to deal with it. At this time, it is too early to assess the damage that has taken place on the farm co mmunity. However, let me assure you I will bring it to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) as soon as pos sible. That is why farmers buy crop insurance, and cove rage of that nature is available to the farm community. * (1 440) Child Protection Centre Government Funding Mrs. Shar on Carsta lrs (R iv er Heigh ts) : Mr.

Speaker, my ques tion is to the Minister of Fam ily Services. In 19 92 -1 993 , the Child Protecti on Centr e received $807, 000. The budgeted amount this year was $578,000 because they had a surplus. The government has now clawed back that surplus. Will the minister today confirm that the grant to the Child Protection Centre will not be $578,000, which is what he said in Estimates, but will be $776,000, which is 3.8 percent less than they received last year? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Mi nister of Family Services) : Mr. Speaker, our funding to the Child Protection Centre is as I had indic ated in Estimates.

We are provid ing them with a grant. We are asking them to use the accumulated surplus they have had for some time. There has been an issue of the level of that surplus, and I have indic ated we are going to address that. Their total funding will be 3.8 percent less than it was last year. Mrs. Carst alrs: Mr. Speaker, they have taken back the surplus. The figure should be $776,000. Will the Child Protection Centre have $776,000 in money to spend this year from the provincial gove rnment? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr.

Speaker, I have indi cated the process that we went through in terms of est ablishing the funding for the Child Protection Centre. I indica ted that in Estimates, that they will have the grant at a certain level, the surplus that has been accumulated. We are cur rently in the process of meeting with them to determine the exact level of that surplus. Their funding will be consistent with what I have ind icated, 3.8 percent less than it was the previous year. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statement Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St.

Norbert have leave to make a nonpolitical state ment? [agreed) Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norber t) : Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in the Ho us e today to rec ogn ize the out sta nding achievement of the graduates of two high schools in my constituency, Fort Richmond Collegiate and St. Norbert Collegiate. These two schools saw over 200 students graduate this year. Mr. Speaker, it is not too often that we have the opportunity to have one of our graduates present on the floor of the House.

This particular graduate had an outsta nding scholastic record and set a fine example for all the students to follow. She

51 57 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 graduated this year from Fort Richmond Collegiate magna cum laude with a 90 percent average and received the proficiency award for the highes t mark in History 300 with 98 percent. This gr aduate also received the Gord Hub er Memorial Scholarship for interest in go vernment and current affairs, with a value of $500. She also received a Carleton University scholarship for $6,000 over four years, as well as a University of Manitoba scholarsh ip, Mr. Speaker.

This young woman is certainly an inspiration to all students in the province of Manitoba and across Canada. She has demons trated perseverance and dedic ation to her studies while at the same time serving the members of this House in an efficient and courteous manner. Mr. Speaker, today I ask all members to join me in congratulating one of our Pages whom I am honou red to represent as the member for St. Norbert, Karen Tymofichuk. Committee Changes Ms. Beck y Barrett (Welling ton): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Fri esen), that the comp osition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia -Leis); Broadway (Mr. Santos) for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), for Tuesday, July 6, at 7 p.m. I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resour ces be amended as follows: Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) for Broadway (Mr. Santos), for Wednesday, July 7, 7 p.m. I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friese n), that the composition of the Sta nding Comm ittee on Law Amendm ents be amended as follows: Thompson (Mr. Ashton) for Transcona (Mr. Reid); St. Joh ns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), for Wednesday, July 7, at ?p .m. I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that the composition of the Standing Com mittee on Public Accounts be amended as follows: Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for Broadway (Mr. Santos), Thursday, July 8, 9 a.m. I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar); and Brandon East (Mr. Leon ard Evans) for Rin Flon (Mr. Storie), for Thursday, July 8, 9 a.m. Motions agreed to. Mr. Jflck Reimer (Niak wa): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mr s. Rend EH), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Economic Development for July 6, at 7 p.m., be amended as follows: Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) for Emerson (Mr. Penner); Kirkfield Park (Mr. Ste fanso

n) for St. Norber t (Mr. Laurendea u); St. Vital (Mrs. Render) for Morris (Mr. Manne•ss); and Riel (Mr. Ducharme) for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger). I als�o move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mr s. Render), that the composition of the Standing Commi ttee on Public Utilities; and Natural Resources for July 6, at 7 p.m., be ame nded as follows : Sturgeon Cr eek (Mr. McAipiine) for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer); Morris (Mr. Manness) for Emerson (Mr. Penner); River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) for Ste . Rose du Lac (Mr. Cummiings). Motions agreed to. Mr. Ke•vln Lamou reux (In kster): Mr.

Speaker, I move, 1seconded by the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: River Heig hts (Mrs. Carstairs) for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), and that is for Tuesday, July 6, 7 p.m. I also mo ve , seconde d by the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), that the composition of the Standing Commi ttee on Economic Develo1pment be amended as follows: St. James (Mr. Edwards) for River Heights (Mrs. Carstai rs); again, that is for Tuesday, July 6, 7 p.m. Motions agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. [)arren Prazn lk (Deputy Go vernment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would ask if you could begin by please calling for introduction for second reading, Bill 54. As well, if you could call for continuation of debate on second reading in this order, please: Bill 41 , Bill 34, Bill 20, and Bill 32.

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 51 58 Following the completion of that business, I will have further announcements for the House. SECOND READINGS Bill 54- The Mun icipal Assessment Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Leonard Derkach (Min is ter of Rural Development) : I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), that Bill 54, The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'evaluation municipale, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Derkach: This amendment to The Municipal Assess ment Act before this House today could be described merely as a housekeeping change. It is sim ply extending the authority provided to the municipalities when The Municipal Assessment Act was first introduced in 19 90. The pro vision in que stion allowed municipalities to phase in tax increases resulting from the 19 90 reasses sment.

As some members of this House may recall, through this provision, the new assessment act provided municipalities with a means to phase in reassessme nt-related tax increases which they believed to be unreasonable for ratepayers to absorb in one year. The provision provided them with the ability to deal with localized increases which were unique to their municipality. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) This sec tion is perm issive in that it allows municipalities, at their discreti on, to phase in reassess ment-rela ted tax increa ses to local taxpayers which may otherwise be difficult to handle in one year with only a few months notice. Madam Deputy Speaker, several municipalities in rural Manitoba used the provision for the 19 90 reassessm ent, and the City of Winnipeg has already ind icated their desire to use this authority for the upcoming reasses sment.

Accor dingly, Madam Depu ty Sp ea ker, our department is putting forward this amendment to ensure municipalities have the tools they need to deal with changing asses sm ents within their jur isdictions. I say again that this particular amendment to The Municipal Assessment Act befor e this Hous e cou ld be viewed as a housekeeping matter which would accommodate municipalities in dealing with their reassess ments which are occurring for the 199 4 tax year. It is something that municipalities, indeed, have expressed an interest and a desir e to have as a tool in dealing with reasses sment.

So, I recommend this bill to the House. Thank you. Ms. Rosann Wowc huk (Swan River): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that debate be adj ourned. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 41- The Provin cial Parks and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading, Bill 41 (The Provincial Parks and Consequential Amendmen ts Act; Loi concernant les pares pro vinciaux et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Enns), standing in the name of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wow chuk). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to permit the bill to remain sta nding? [agreed] Bill 34- The Public Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools Governan ce) Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second rea ding, Bill 34 (The Public Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools Governance) Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques (gestion des ecoles frangaises )), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodr ey) , stan ding in the name of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Fries en). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to permit the bill to remain sta nding? [agreed) Bill 20-The Social Allowances Regulation Valid ation Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 20 (The Social Allowances Regu lation Validation Act; Loi valid iant un reglement d'appl ication de Ia

Loi sur I' aide sociale),

51 59 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), standing in the name of the honourable memb er for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). Is ther e leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: No. Madam Deputy Speaker: No? An Honour able Member: No leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: No leave? Leave has been denied. Is the Ho use ready for the qu es tion? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 20. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed.

Madam De puty Sp eaker : Agreed and so ordered. Bill 32-The Social Allo wances Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: Bill 32 (The Social Allowances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'aid e sociale), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Fam ily Ser vices (Mr. Gillesh ammer), stan ding in the name of the honourable member for Flin Flon. Mr. Jer ry Storie (FIIn Flon) : Madam Deputy Speaker, this in many ways follows on the heels of some comments I made with respect to Bill20. I do not have to tell anyone on that side that this is one of those pieces of legislation-m embers on this side are going to be opposed to this piece of legislation.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I am going to try and explain as carefully and as dispassionately as I can why I think is a terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible mis take. This piece of legislation, I think, symbolizes what is wrong with the current thinking of the front bench and perhaps even extending back into the back bench. I think probably that thinking has escaped or perhaps not touched the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns). The member for Lakeside is his lucid self; he remains untouched. * (1 450) But I think this is a serious, serious flaw on the part of the Conser vative Gov er nment.

There seems to be an impression that everyone who is currently being given a hand is somehow, No. 1, undese ·rving; No. 2, that person is almost incapable of bein!� helped, or that person is not deserving of help. It ha1s become apparent in virtually everything that thi!� gov ernment has done in terms of the social service1s that it has lost touch with the notion that the economy and social well-being of Manitobans are inextricably linked. They have forgotten that, when it comes to health care.

They have forgotten that, when it comes to educati on, and now we see that they have forgotten that, when it comes to our young p•eople. I havE• watched as time after time after time when questions were raised, when ind ividual cases were prese nt·ed to the Legislature, first the Minister of Educ at1ion (Mrs. Vodr ey) , then the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) and then the First Minister (Mr. Rlmon) stood in their place and said we are the only province that has this program, therefor•e it should go. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are not the only provinCE• that has a similar progr am.

We may be the only· province that has this unique individual progr am, but that in and of itself should not be justification for eliminating it. The question you would h1ope that government members would ask themselves, the qu estion you would hope the Ministe1 r of Ed ucation, the Minis ter of Family Service!l, yes, even the Minister of Finance (Mr. Mannes1�) would ask themselves is: Is there a net benefit tc> Manitobans through this progr am?

It reminds me of an argument that we had in this Chamber back in 1984 -85 when the legislation on daycare standards, The Day Care Standards Act, was introd uced in the Legislature. I remember the cries from this side saying that we cannot afford it, it does not make sense, it is simply a drain on taxpayers and on the socia l envelope of the province of Manitoba.

But, thank goodness, there were some individuals who were not necessarily of the New Democratic Party persuasion who were interested in getting to the truth of the matter, who were inter es ted in really asse ssing the net economic benefit or the net economic costs of social pmgrams. Well, to my surprise, the Winnipeg Chamber of Commer•ce, a body which I have often disagreed with, carne to the gove rnment and said we are going to study the issue of child care. We are

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 51 60 going to try and determine whether child care, the pro vision of not universal child care , Madam Deputy Sp eaker, but the bes t that we could possibly provide at that time. And the president of the Chamber of Comm erce during that period was a Mr. John Doole, someone whom I respect a great deal, who is an independent thinker, undert ook, on behalf of the Chamber, to do the study.

Appro xima tely a year later, the Winn ipeg Chamber of Com merce came to the Minister of Educat ion, the Minister of Family Services, and said that they had completed their study , and su rprise of su rprises, the Winnip eg Ch amber concluded that there was in that economic benefit by providing child care, that in fact, in terms of the social and economic benefit to the province, this was a reasonable course to take. I think that the govern ment should apply the same logic to every decision it makes. It should ask itself: Where is the sense in this; where is the economic sense?

We are not sta nding here saying this is simply a matter of us being more right, more morally corr ec t, mo re compas sio nate than members opposite, although that happens to be true. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that members opposite, by and large, want to do the right thing, but wanting to do the right thing means being respons ible. It means not simply going with what your colleagues may think is true or what the conventional wisdom of the Conser vative Party happens to be at the moment. Reason means assess ing the pros and cons, looking at a balance of probabilities, doing some objective analysis.

So I have to ask the member for Roblin-Russ ell, the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), whether he is aware of any objective study that says this is going to save taxpayers money now or in the future. We know that the sa vings that the government is su pposedly going to have by this program are going to be assu med by other programs, by other levels of government. The vast majority of the savings are simply going to disappear and be assu med by some other level of go vernment. That is the fact of the matter.

What we are doing is saying to someone who is getting an education and on social assi stance, you cannot do that. Do not educa te yourself; do not improve yourself; do not improve your potential. We are saying to that person, no, what you can do is go on welfare, that is what you can do essentially that is the choice that is being give n-or we are sayi ng, go and return to your family if that is possi ble. In many cases it may not be, but go and retu rn to your family and despai r, essentia lly despair. The fact of the matter is that programs of this ki nd-and I include many of the ACCESS programs.

The programs that were specifically designed and targeted to move people from a position of disadvantage to a position of opportunity and hope, have been success ful. There is a great deal of evidence to suggest that it is a progressive and an economically viable option. The governmen t si mply cannot talk about investing in people while at every turn taking out from under them the programs that they have to turn to to survive, that they have to turn to to take advantage of the opp ortu nities that pr esent thems elves.

They si mp ly canno t be taken seriously when they talk about the importance of having an educated population. They cannot talk about the importance of education as part of our indus trial infrastructure and then cut back on the opportunities for people to become educated, to gather training. It does not make sense, particu larly for the weakest, for those most dis advantaged, but we have to look at it in a more positive vein. These young people stand to gain us economically the greatest benefit if we invest in them.

Who knows what impact the decision of the gove rnment to withd raw su pport for hundreds and hundreds of young people is going to have ultimately on their lives? They are now relegated to watching reruns in their parents' livingroom or relegated to moving on to assistance with the City of Winnip eg or moving from place to place as opposed to gaining the education and the self-esteem that they are going to need to be contributors to our society. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer) has given us some indic ation of what the Student Social Allowances Program offers per individual. I can assure the minister that it pales into insignificance the cost of su pporting someone for a lifetime and then perhaps su pporting their children, all because of a lost opportu nity, all because we said, no, it makes more sense to cut these people off than

516 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA July 6, 19 93 have them getti ng an education. I just cannot believe that makes sense. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have said the same thing about many other programs. It does not make sense to me. It never did make sense to me that we should tell people who are unemployed, no, you cannot go to school and upgrade your training, you must be unemployed, that is your job now. It is a waste of money. It is a waste of opportunity. Madam Deputy Speaker, this government is honing that to a fine art.

They are basically sayi ng, we are not going to give anybody an oppor tunity, we are not going to invest in people, particularly people who requ ire the investment the mo st. These hundr eds, these thousands of students some thousand students are affected-are those people. Madam Dep uty Speaker, maybe one of the things that is lacking on that side is experience.

I do not know how many members on that side have had an opportunity to attend the graduating class of the Winnipeg Education Centre, of the BUNTEP centre, of the training programs that were put in place by the previous Core Area Agree ment, training programs that took people who saw no hope, who had lived on welfare in some cases for many, many years, who were in many cases single parents su ppor ting children-! do not know if anyone could ever really understand the sense of accomplishment that these people feel when they have succeeded. • (1 500) An Honourable Member: I do. Mr.

Storie: The former Minister of Education says he does . We ll, Madam De puty Speaker, it di sappoi nts me to hear tha t he says he under sta nds, knowing that the Minister of Education was the minister responsible when many of these programs began their decline. That is the problem. I see the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) shaking her head in dismay that I would say such a thing. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am quite certain that the Minister or Education does not know whe reo f I speak. We know the Minister of Education's backgr ound. We know where the Minister of Education is coming from .

I would hazard a guess that the Minister of Educati on has not seen a soup kitchen in some time. Madam Deputy Speaker, the fact of the matter is that m•any of the people who this government is turfing out of the Student Social Allowances Program came from there. They have been on Main S·treet. They have been part of the homeless. They h1!1.Ve been the unemployed. They have been those in despair. That is where they came from. This gc>vernment is relegating those people to certainl·y a life of uncertainty from this point on.

We can only hope that it does not go beyond that, that somehow they are able, with their own resources, their own strength of character, to find their way out of their current situation. Ma dam De put y Sp ea ker, I think the government's decision to close this program for lack of Lmderstanding the real value of the program is the real tragedy. The government does not appear and none of its member s appear to recogni2:e the value of the progr am.

What is even more startling is that none of them seem prepared to do the analysis, to say, what does it cost to provide a student with assistance for a year versus what it is going to cost if we do not educate and offer hope and opportunity to those students over the long haul. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that this program paid dividends to the province of Manitoba, and I happen to know and have as a friend someone who has been involved in this program for a long time.

I can tell y·ou that there are not many jobs in the civil service, in the Family Services department that are cons iste ,ntly reward ing but working with these students in this program has been, because it is positive and it does work and it does change people's lives for the better. What the gover nment has chosen to do is to take away that hope all in the name of some sort of perceived economic responsibility, when it is a dou ble-edged sword and when all of the evidence points to the fact that this will not save money, it simply offloads the cost and destroys hope in the meantime�.

So I will be opposing this legislation. I know that my cofle,agues as well will be op posi ng this legislation. I would have wished that there would have beEm some more independent thinking by some of the members opposite. I want to assure members opposite that these are the kinds of actions, these are the kinds of

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 51 62 symbols that people grasp on when they come to vote. I can tell the members on the gove rnment front benches that when I talk to people on the street and say, does this make sense, the answer is a resounding no. What the government is doing is going to make sure that they do not get re-elected. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to read finally from a Free Press

article of June 13 , and it says: "P remier Ga ry Filmon is putting himself into Manitoba history as the premier who kicked poor people out of high school and into welfare. Why he wants this reputation he alone can explain." Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that is a ques tion tha t needs to be answered. Wh y does this government want this reputation? Why has this gove rnment consistently failed to look at the facts? Why has this go vernment and its minis ters consistently refu sed to acknowledge their obliga tion- the Minis ter of Educ ation (Mr s. Vodr ey) , the Min iste r of Fa mily Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer), the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) -their obligation to ensure that young people in this province get an opportunity, that they get a chance at an education, that they get a chance to move thems elves out of the cycle of poverty and despair and abuse and so forth. That is the history and the role, the lot of many of the people who are involved in this progr am. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I say, I had the privilege of knowing someone who worked with these young people, these people in the progr am.

For all of the people that worked with them, who shared sometimes their successes and many times their failures and successes, this is a real traged y. The government is not going to be left off the hook by the people of Manitoba, particularly the people who su pported this kind of program ming. People can have a long memo ry. In the end result, I believe that the elimination of this program and Bill 32 is going to come back to haunt them. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bill 32. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: No. Madam Dep uty Sp eak er: No? All those in favour, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Madam Deputy Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Madam Deputy Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Steve Ashton (Oppos ition House Leader): On division, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker: On division. *** Hon.

Darren Prazn lk (Deputy Go vernmen t House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would ask if you could now please call in this order, Bills 26, 27, 35 and 36. Bill 26-The Expropriation Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second rea din g of Bill 26 (The Expropriation Amen dmen t Act ; Loi mo di fiant Ia

Loi sur !'expropriati on), on the proposed motion of the honour able Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCr ae), standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martinda le). Is ther e leave to permit the bill to remain stand ing? [agreed] Mr. Pa ul Edwards (Le ader of the Second Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, it gives me some pleasure to rise today to speak to Bill 26, The Expropriation Amendment Act. I do not intend to have lengthy comments. It is the position of our party that this bill should move to committee.

It is a bill which deals with the expropriation process and, of course, that is a very important process in the province. It is an important public power to be able to expropri ate property. It is a power that has on occas ion been abused by government authorities and mus t be used very carefully. This bill essentially provides for the Land Value Appraisal Comm ission to have the final say for both the expropria ted person in addition to the expropriating authority. Cu rrently, of course, the Land Value Appraisal Comm ission decision is only binding on the authority.

This does take away that second look of the Court of Queen's Bench with

516 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 respect to the appeal which could have been launched by the expropriated person. However, it is important to remember that both parties, both the expropriated party and the expropriating authority, still have recourse to the Court of Appeal as a final court of decision making on those issues of law, in fact, under the normal rules of judicial review, which are restricted grounds of appeal.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to put on record again that one of the things which disturbs me about the no-fault bill before the House, and I have some concern about this bi ll, although I look forward to further discussion in the committee on this point, is that we are moving increasingly away from the impartial, learned decisions of judges and toward the decisions of politically appoi nted individuals whose terms are set by politicians, whose pay is set by politicians, who do not have all of the sa feguards of neutrality that the courts offer.

Now, the courts have become, in many cases, cumbersome and too expensive. I acknowledge that; almost everyone in the system acknowledges that. That is why I proposed the quick cou rt solution. What I see here, and I see in particular in the no-fault legislation, is that we are moving away from the neutral decision making, the guarantee of neutrality in the courts and more and more toward final adj udication power in the hands of tribunals which are much more tied to the political syste m.

I know from working with the Workers Com pensation Board Appeal Comm ission that it is not the same, it does not give the same hearing, it does not offer the same fairness, it does not offer the same neutrality that courts do. * (1 510 ) So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do have some concern about moving generally away from courts and towards politically appointed tribunals. I do note that this does not appear on its surface, and I have simply read the minister's comments in this regard, and I am trusting him in that respect that this does not do that.

It still allows for the Court of Appeal to be the final court of review; however, it does simply provide for a binding decision from the Land Value Appraisal Com mission to both parties, the expr opriat ed party and the expr opriating authority. With those comments, Madam Deputy Speake r, I look forward to prese ntations at the committee stage on this bill. Madam Deputy Speaker: As previously agreed, this bill remains stan ding in the name of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martind ale). Bill 27- The En vironment Amendment Act

(2) Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume de bate on second rea ding of Bill 27 (The Environment Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 mod ifiant Ia

Loi sur l'environnement), on the proposed motion of the hon ou rable Mi nis ter of Environment (Mr. Cumm ings ) , sta nding in the name of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). Is ther e leave to permit the bill to remain standing? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Madam Deputy Spea ker: Leave? Leave has been granted. Mr. Paul Edwa rds (Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today to speak to Bill 27, The Environment Amendment Act (2). This is

an act which is of particular importance to me, because I, since being elected in 19 88, every year raised this issue with the government and every year was told that there would be no recourse, there would be no ability to control the abuse of burning stu bble. I do not say and I have always said that the agricultural commu nity itself should always be involved in reaching a consensus solution. I have said that the vast majority of farmers who did stubble burn I am sure did so respons ibly. There were some who did not, and that was by and large the genesis of the prob lem. I represent an area, the St.

James area, and I am sur e my either colleagues who represent ridings in that area will attest to the fact that that area has consistently over the years been parti cularly sub ject to large clouds of stubble smoke. (Mr. M�ucel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Mr. Acting Speaker, it is not that it causes an unpleasant odour for people for a period of time. That is not my concern. My concern stems from the fact that this poses a real health risk to many thousands of people. Just ask Dr.

Chochinov, the head of emergency at Grace Hospital, just ask the people in the field who have to deal with the dozens and dozens of children with as thma, seniors with emphysema who show up and need treatment, and

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 516 4 they are sti ll needing treatment long after the smoke has cleared. They start feeling the medical effects before perhaps you and I have even noticed that it is in the air. The sens itivity in people is wides pread . Those with any dif ficulties with breathing feel the effects of this. We needed to do somethi ng. I stood up year after year and greatly resented the go vernment sa ying, you do not under stand, you are from the city. You do not unde rstand . You want to restrict farmers from doing their job. Mr. Acting Speaker, no such thing.

I stood up year after year because it was a health hazard. I stood up because in fact I had spoken to the people in the agricultural community. They agreed with the approach that I advoca ted, which was one of stru ctu ring a comm ittee includin g the farming community, coming up with some ability to restrict stubble burning in a sensibl e, common-sense, reasonable way. Tha t is in fact wh at the government did at the end of the day, and I am pleased that they did that. We now have a set of regulations. It is going to be tested for the first year this year. I have some concerns about those reg ulations.

I have expressed those to the members of the committee, but I am very willing and desirous of giving these regulations a test run. Let us see how it works. I am very concerned that there are adequa te enforcement provisions there, and for that reason I am pleased to support this bill, which does allow the RCMP to act as the enforcement officers and does , the minis ter adv ises, assist in the enforcement of those regulations. So I am pleased to do anything to expedite this so that we can put it in place, so that the mechanisms can be there for the fall burning seaso n. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I hope that if there are flaws in the regulations, and I am sure there will be some, that after we have had a chance to see how this works in the fall season, we will look at revisions to improve the syste m because we have, for the first time in the last year, come to a common goal, that we do have to provide some re lief to those thousands of people in this city, and indeed I think in many other locations around the province, who suffer greatly because of this practice. It is preventable, and there are ways to work around it, and that is what we are working towards.

So I am pleased to say that we would like this bill to move to committee. We look forward to hearing any comments at that time, but we do want this framework in place in sufficient time to do all that is necessary to regu late this effectively and efficiently in the coming fall season. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I want to speak on this bill. I can testify first-hand to the problems from stubble burning under the current syste m. My son has as thma.

I still remember driving down Highway 6 last fall with the suf focati ng smok e on Highway 6 from stubble burning, the unrestricted stubble burning at that time, and the diff iculties that placed my son in. I know, having seen the impact on many residents of Winnipeg and surrounding areas, particularly children with as thma and others with asth ma and other breathing problems, the terrible impact that unrestricted stubble burning has had on them. Mr. Acting Speak er, it is unacceptable that we have not had proper controls on stubble burning and that we are only now dealing with this bill.

I say that all have to accept some responsibility for this fact. I go beyond that and say that, in my view, it is not a question of trade-o ffs or compromises. I believe that the onus in the case of this has to be on those who will stubble burn, to do it in such a way that it is not a health hazard. I feel too often in the past we have treated it as something that is sacrosanct and something that is essential to agr iculture , the unlimited right of stubble burning.

That is not the case , that is not acceptable, and I will be looking very carefully at this particular bill, any regulations that follow and any enforcement that takes place, because this bill should be enforced in its entirety. I think people have to unde rstand that this a serious health problem. I feel that some who have said that they will ignore the law should be fully prosecuted. That is not acceptable. We live in a society where I think we all recognize the impact of pollution on individuals. Stubble burning is a form of pollution.

It is like any other form of pollution, it can create major he alth problems. Like any other form of pollution, it needs to be restricted, eliminated wherever pos sible, and where it cannot be eliminated, it needs to regulated and regulated very stric tly. I hope that this will happen with the passage of this bill.

516 5 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 I mus t say, Mr. Acting Speaker, given some of the politics that sometimes surrounds this type of issue, I am skeptical. I really am, but this issue should not be driven by political compromises. It should not be driven by political lobbying. The fact is, we saw this past fall in particular and we have seen in other years how serious a problem it is. One has to remember that those who suffer from as thma, particularly children, that there is an increase in our society in the number of people with asth ma.

This is actually despite the reduction in many other disea ses and health conditions. In terms of as thma, there has been an increase and there has been an increased number of deaths from asth ma. It is a very serious health concern. * (1 520) I will say, Mr.

Acting Speaker, having driven through some of the densest smok e I have seen, worse than half the forest fires I have seen up North in terms of the amount of smok e that was produced and having seen the entire city of Winnip eg su rrounded by this haze and knowing my son, who is only eight years old, and the fear that smok e put in him because he knows he is susceptible as being an as thmatic in terms of his breathing from smoke, I just imagine the terrible bur den that placed on people, the many people in this city and surro unding rural communities who have far more serious asthma than even my son does.

So in conclusion, I want to say there should be no politics with this bill. There shoul d be no unnecessary compromises, Mr. Acting Speaker. Any stubble burning that is in place should take place only under the strictest of conditions, and we should seek every possible way of eliminating it as a practice where other practices are available of an equivalent. That has to be the me ssage from this Legislature, and I hope it can be a three- party message, because I have never seen a more clear example of a health problem that has not been dealt with, a problem that needs to be regulated.

It is up to us now, and it is the many people in Winnipeg and surrounding rural communities that have as thma and other breathing problems that are depending on us. Let us not let them down. The Ac ting Speaker (Mr. Laurende au) : As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martinda le). Bill 35- The Fisheries Amendment Act The A.ctlng Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): On the propm;ed motion of the honou rable Minis ter of Natu ral Res our ces (Mr. En ns) , Bill 35, The Fisheries Amendment Act; Loi modif iant Ia

Loi sur Ia Peche, standing in the name of the honourable membEH for Flin Flon (Mr. Stor ie). An Honourable Member: Stand. The A1::: tlng Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau) : Is there leave that this matter remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Flin Flon? [agreed] Mr. Pl!IUI Edwards (Le ader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Acting Speaker, I want to thank the member for Flin Flon for allowing me to put some very brief comments on the record. I will, of course, look forward to reviewing his comments as well.

This bill, of course, changes the quo ta entitle ment SJ{Stem in the inland fisheries industry in this province. There is a departmental admi nistrative practiCEt which this is formalizing and to that extent it does put into legislation what I unde rstand is alread}' the practice in the indus try, Mr. Acting Speaketr, and that is that individual quotas are handed out in the major lakes.

Of course, there are lake quotas for the lesser lakes where fishing is done, but those individual quo tas are then of some value, s;ome considerable value, I would as sume, in some• circums tances, perhaps something like a quota for milk production in this province or other such quota syste ms. Mr.

Acting Speaker, this is formalizing that process: in legislation which, of course, then will allow those who have the quotas to sell them, and becauso presumably there will be some limit, there will be a limit on the amount of individual quotas so that there can be a control of the amount that is harvestEid from the lakes.

Now, that is moving from a system where the lake has a quota, which then allows E!Veryone to fish, everyone to participate, and then it is simply controlled by, whomever has taken it out, whenever the amount that is dete rmined can be taken out, has been taken out, that is it That is the end of the season. Mr. Acting Speaker, that syste m allows everyone to participate and sets a quo ta for the lake. This syste m, like the milk syste m in this province, other marketing schemes, allows only certain individuals to harv•:�st again up to that certain level. It is certainly· easier to regulate, to make sure that no

July 6, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 516 6 mo re than is allowed is act ually taken out. Why?-because you have a set number of people who are fishing at all. They reach a certain point; then it is over. The difficulty is, of course, that it does restrict the number of people that can get into the industry. The argument, of course, in favour of that is, well, you set quotas at a level that someb ody can do this and earn a reaso nable Jiving, one hopes. One has a quota that is based on what is necessary to purchase the start-up equipment to get into the business.

If you just simply stick with the Jak e quotas on the larger market basis, the larger lakes, then you may sacrifice that and there may not be people who are going to do this on a large enough scale to maintain the industry. So there are pros and cons to both of these sys tems. I generally, of course, like, I am sure, the minister, favour free enterprise. Obviously, in certain sectors of our economy, it is not a perfect sys tem.

If we want to maintain an industry, we have to deviate from that, and I look forward to some discussions at committee about what this system has meant in terms of people getting into the industry, specifically, how difficult is it for those who want to, to get a quota. I would like to think that we are prepared , of course, to have the industry expand if the market is there. I unde rstand that it has not been a very good market in the recent times, and so that problem has not arisen. I do want to have some discussion at the committee with respect to the overall way that the minister sees this industry going.

It is a very importa nt indu stry to cer tain sec tions of our province, certain communities. It is the mainstay of those communities, and we all, I believe, in this House want to do whatever we can to reasonably, within the bounds of a sus tainable approach to this, have people enter and be able to earn a living. I have every faith, Mr. Acting Speaker. I can tell you, many of those in the Freshwa ter Fish Marketing Corporation whom I have dealt with from time to time-a nd I believe that they as well have done a good job in this area.

I think that corpora tion has worked, can work, but I also know that it is very important that we maintain the ability to do what we can to maintain the ability of those who are committed to this indus try as a way of life to be able to provide for themselves, to be able to have a reasonable standard of living because, otherwise, they will not be in this busi ness and there will be no industry. I would not want this ind ustry to simply be one where it was populated by people who did it from time to time as a hobby. I think that it is an important way of life for many communities.

I think that we want to respect that. If this bill formalizes a sys tem, and the minister seems to indic ate in his comments that it does, which is beneficial and the commercial fishermen's associations are in favour of this, and he indic ates thatthey are, I look forward to that being made clear at the committee, Mr. Acting Speaker, then we are certainly prepared to have this go to com mittee to have that fuller discussion with those comments about the concern for the indus try overall being noted on the record, and we look forward to some detailed discussion at the committee st age. Thank you. * (1 530) Mr.

Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Acting Speaker, I appreciated the comments of the member for St. James on this bill, and I think he raised a number of questions that needed to be raised . I intend to raise a cou ple of other considerations for the mi nis ter' s review prior to this bill going to committee. Mr. Acting Speaker, while this is a very thin bill, I think it does have major reper cussions for fishermen across the province, but I think more than fishermen it has major repercussions for many of our communities.

Representing an area where there are literally millions of pounds of whitefish taken from our lakes, I am very concerned about the di rection the ministe r is taking us in this legislation. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I know that the minister has indic ated to one of my colleagues that the intention here is to simply open up and allow the sale of quo ta, to allow quota to become a com mercial entity in the Lak e Winnipegosis-Lake Winnipeg area.

Unfortunately, I think that this legislation certainly leaves open the door that the areas that are going to be prescribed under which this legislation will have sway is going to be left to the minister's dis cr et ion, and the Lieuten ant-Gove rnor in-Council' s discretion.

516 7 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 6, 19 93 Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to put on record the case against moving very quickly to do what the minister intends to do through this legislation. I know that the indus try and particularly some of the larger quota holders, fishermen who have experien ce , some would say the wealthier fish ermen to the extent there are any wealthy fishermen today, are anxious to have this quota entitlement be considered a commodity in effect.

We all recog nize that there are certain beneficial aspects to having it a commodity because it will, as I am sure the minister suggested in his remarks, make it easier for fishermen to access capital, to get operating loans if there is some sort of certainty to the allocation of fish quotas. That is in itself a legitimate goal.

Cer tainly, from another perspective, you have fishermen who have been fishing a lake for a long perio d of time, who like mo st small-b usine ss people, ar e lacking in signi ficant financial resources, who see the sale of, someday, their fishing enterprise as a nest egg, like farmers see selling their lands. They see it as an opportunity to retire by selling their business.

As it stands , that is someti mes a di fficu lt proposition, because, although you may sell your boat and your equipment and your nets and all the rest of it, the fact of the matter is that until we implement a system like this, you cannot sell the qu ota, that in fact the Depar tment of Natu ral Resources can allocate the quota to whomever they wish. There is no search fee for the individual operator, and that is a legitimate problem for some operators. I want to simply ex press concern over the potential that the spread of this particular syste m would have for a lot of Manitoba.

I know that the minister's intentions may be honourable, but the fact of the matter is that we are now amending The Fisheries Act so that the regulations now cover and give the minister more opportunity to impose his own will and the dep artm ent's will and the go vernment's will over what is actu ally mo st beneficial to the fishermen themselves and to the fishing community. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think there are two dangers in this.

If the minister is going to stand and say, no, this is simply for Lake Winnipeg and Winnip ego sis, I am not sur e that all of the fishe rmen in those two areas are going to be su ppor11ing this legislation. I would certainly like to think that if it is the government's intention to have this particular bill affect those two areas only, what we do is enshrine

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-95
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 95.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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