Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th . Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, JUNE 6, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL ..... Number 48

June 6, 1975 Tape no. 2157 Page 1 - mw The House met at 3:00 ,·.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair, MR, SPEAKER: I would like to welcome to the galleries today some thirty-five students from Grade IX,_-:( andXf of St, Edward's High School on Bell Island with Mr, Ken Kavanagh and Sister Veronica Lister. On behalf of all the honourable members I welc0111e you to the galleries, and I trust that your visit here is most interesting and informative. Pl-· -:SENTING PETITIONS MR, SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island, MR. S. A. NEARY: You l1ave to recognize me today above all days, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Spe,iker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of 200 residents of the Lunar Sub-division, Mount Pearl in the district of St. John's North. By the way of explanation, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to the House that I discussed this matter already wilh the member for the district. As a matter of fact I offered the memb~r the petition to present in the Bouse if be so desired. I thinl< we held a brief discussion outside the House yesterday on the petitjoo. We both agreed that it seems to be - MR, COLLINS: HR. NF.AB.Y: MR, COLLINS: HR. HEAR.Y: Did yo, have a confab on it? I beg your pardon?

Did yot have a confab on it? Hr. Speaker, the petition like so aany other petitions that have been presented in this session of the House, Sir, deals with the road conditions in the Luoar Subdivision down in Mount Pearl. Residents are bitterly complaining about the condition of their roads, Sir. They are not satisfied with the road conditions commencing a,. the Ruth Avenue extension and continuing approximately four-tenths of a mile to Lindber!1Ji.Crescent, The reasons they give for this petition, Sir, is that in the Wintertime it is virtually impossible to clear the ice and snow off the road.

The road is not apparently wide enough. It creates a bottleneck in certain sections of the road, aad it is impossible to clear the now out of it. 6424

June 6, 1975 Tape No. 2157 They say, Sir, that it is hazardous for an ambulance to P,et over this stretch of road especially 1n the 1hring of the year, and thev are calling for immediate work on this rnad, Sir, an announced programme by the government or the tmm council or whoever is responsible for this stretch of road to try an<l 6425 ""!W - 2 .. ,;::·,,.

June 5, 1975. Tape 2158 RB - 1 solve this problem. So, on behalf of these residents, Sir, in the Lunar Subdivision I respectfully present this petition to the honourable House, I support the prayer of the petition and I understand, Sir, that my good friend from St. John's North will also rise in support of the petition. You might say, Sir, it is almost a joint petition we are presenting. I am presenting the petition and the Member for St. John's North will second the motion. I support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and I respectfully ask that it be sent to the department to which it relates. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. John's North. HR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, in both supporting this petition and in replying to it I would first like to thank the honourable Member for Bell Island for his courtesy in discussing this petition with me at first. It is an unusual petition. By the standards of the petitions presented in this House it is, I would say, a giant petition as well as being a joint petition . However, it was originated by Mr. Melvin Watton of the Lunar Subdivision in Mount Pearl, originally to have been presented to the town council of Mount Pearl.

I understand one very much like that petition was presented to the town council of Mount Pearl. The condition of this road was first brought to my attention by Mr, Watton in late March of this year when all road conditions were at their very worst and I went in to check the condition of the road and could see that because of the high banks of snow on either side and the fact that the road had been salted there was no way of affecting improvements at that time.

However, some of the residents wished to have heavy equipment go over the road to smooth it out and I suggested that that would properly be one of the very worst things they could do unless they waited for the surface to dry out a bit. However, the town council of Mount Pearl, the town clerk there, I was in touch with him and he info:Ellled me that the situation was very much a matter for their concern and they were keeping a close watch on it. I was assured of their good will and their desire to do something about it as soon as 6426

June 6, 1975. Tape 2158 RH - 2 possible. However, I can quite understand the residents being very concerned and I would like to perhaps explain to this House why I believe the petition came to the notice of the Kember for Bell Island. Ur. Watton is an employee of the Trade ~chool on Bell Island and therefore spends probably far more time on Bell Island than in Mount Pearl and therefore quite naturally considers his member to be the Member for Bell Island. Well, I do not think, Mr. Speaker, 1.,e should draw strict district boundaries, particularly with the change of districts that is now in effect.

I think each of us should undertake to represent as many people as possible. MR. NEARY: I am not running - MR. CARTER: However, I do thank the honourable member for discuss:l.Dg it with roe first. I echo the concern of the residents and I fully support the prayer but I do understand that the matter is in hand and I am very happy to be able to say that. MR. SPEAKER.: The honourable Leader of the OppoRition. MR. ROBER'I'S: Mr. Speaker, unless there is some other member who wishes to speak on that petition I would like to present another petition. MR.

SPEAKER: 'The honourable Leader of the Opposition presenting another petition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir. This petition, Mr. Speaker, is on behalf of the residents of the community of Grandois in my constituency of White Bay North. It is signed by approximately 150 residents of the community. The prayer of the petition, ~r. Speaker, is quite simply stated and has been oft repeated in this House though I believe it is the first time a petition has been presented. The prayer of the petition is that the people of Grandois be provided with a road link. Mr.

Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and I support it without reservation or hesitation. There are two co11DDunitiea in that part of White Bay North, Sir, the part of the district between Conche in the South and the community of Main Brock to the North of the Croque and Grandios area, there are tHo commun tties, Sir, which are 6427

JU11e 6, 1975. Iape 2158 RH - 3 located on the mainland which do not have roads. One is Croque and the other is Grandios~ The road would run from the present highway to Mam Brook out to Croque and then tw or three miles beyond that to the comun.ity of Grandios. I have spoken on it a number of times 1n the Bouse on estimates and elsewhere. I have hsd nmnerous communications with the present Min:1.ster of Transportat:f.on,who unfortunately is not here today,and with his predecessors, all of them supporting all of these comunication.s supporting a request to the people of Grandioa that t.he road be built. We were 6428

.Tune f., 1975 Tape 2159 (afternoc·

n) in 111gh hopes, ~r. Speaker, that the ro;,rl would 1-e huilt this year. Unfortunately, the government are not going to buj ld the road this year. They are going to build the road only as far as Ctoque, only half of the jrb will he done this year. It is not too much to say, Mr. Speaker, that !hi~ causes a far greater problem to the peorle of Crandois t~an if thP road was not built ,eit ,eiJl because now the roacl will be by the end of this season, this construction season,withjn two or three miles of the rornrnunity of Grandois.

Whereas now it is unattainable, once this road to Croque is huilt, it ~-rill be tantalizingly close hut still n0t att.dnable at all. l would in presenting thP petition, Mr. Speaker, implore the ~\inister of Transportation and Communication and liis colleagues to find the extra few thousand dollars needed. These people in Grandois, fishermen, about fifty or sixty families I guess in the area now - more jn the Summer. Some people from Green Bay District come North In-I to fish on that part of the coast - these people, Sir, have as much right to a road as any other people in Newfoundland and Labrador.

They are one of the few communities left who can he hooked 11p. They can be hooked up at reasonably small cost. T do not have an estimate. It would only he a numher of a few thousands of dollars, certainly nothing compared to the sums of money which are ~eing spent elsewhere in the Province on the construction of roads and the improvl!ment of roads. I do not begrudge any other resider t of the Province an improved road nr a reconstructed road or a paved road, but I do think the people of Grandois, ~r. Speaker, are entitled to a road link. I present the petition.

I do so reluctantly because I had hoper that the matter would have heen resolved by the government. Unfortunately, Sir, they have not reRolverl it. If anything, for the reason, I have explained, they have made the matters worse. I hope the minister will reconsider it. I hope in the generosity of his heart he will find r few thousands extra dollars and give these people in GrandoiR the same opportunity that almost every other citizen of this Island now has and th~t is to get in his car at hi, front door and drive to where he will. ~1 r. i'!R, SPF /IKER: Are there any other petitions? 6429 I support the petition,

Jtme 6, 1975 Tape 2159 (afternoon) IB-2 NOTICF. OF ..,_,TION: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism. _!ION. T. HICKEY (MINISTER OF TOUPISM): :'-fr. Speaker, I give notice I will on tomorrow introduce 11. bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Tourist Establishment Aet." MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. John's East. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move the following resolution:

WHEREAS many homes within the Cjty of St. John's are constructed upon land leased during the last quarter of the last century for 99 years, many of which leases will expire Within the last quarter of this century; AND

WHEREAS the rights of homeo~~ers under the City of St. John's Act to obtain renewals and acquire freehold ownership to the land upon which their houses are located are hard to realize because of the difficulty, time and expense of locating the heirs or representatives of the origimll. landlord'S and the curi>ersome procedures and expense of arbitration proceedings necessary to determine the fair market value of the land as required by the Act; AND WHEJIEAS amenoments to the Cjty of St. John's Act are necessary in order to enable residents to more easily acquire land upon which their homes are built; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly urges the Government to present to this ~onourable House legislation which will

(1) Require heirs and representatives of landlords who are absent from the Province (th ;it i!', absentee landlords) ,dthin six months from passage of the Act to appoint an ay,ent empowered to act on their behal~ for the purpose of s:lgn:lng all documents required to be signed under the Act and in default of such appointment to constitute the Registrar of the ~upreme r.ourt as agent of such persnns for such purposes; and

(2) To provide easier, les s cumhersome and less expensive means of acquiring freehold titles either by establishing a

summary way of determining fair market value or establishing an equitable formula of ~etermining the value of freehold interests. ~ • SPEAK.El!: The honourable Pfnister of Education. 6430

Jun~ f>, l<l75 .Tee 2159 (aft-emoon) rs-3 • HON. C. OTTENPFI~R (JfIRI~ OF E.DUCATIOR): '41'. Speaker. I give notice that.I will on tomorrow ask leav~ to intrrduce a bill entitled "An Act To .Amend The l-lewfm,:n~Jand Teacher Collective Bargaining Act, 1_973." .!iN llONOURABl.E ~ER: I would thhik that one will go through very quickly. ORAL QUESTIONS: 'HR. SPEAKF.R: Th.e honcmrable "fember for Bell Island. MR. N'EA!!Y: 1'tr. Speaker, I saw the Minister of Tou.ris1D there in hls seat a few momen_t ago.

Si.r, J presume be can ~ear what is going on in the lJouse. l vould lflte to put a question to the M.inister of Tourism, Sir. Pemaps I w.ill wait 1J11til he comes back to his seat, Sir. AN HONOURABLE .Ma"BQ: llere he is. Here he coaes. 6431

., . , . ·, y ·· .. •. ·, ~ .June 6, 1975 MR. NEARY: Tape no. 2160 P88e 1 - mv I would like to ask the Minister of TouriBIII if the federal goveroment has yet paid Cabot Group 4 for arranging a press conference to announce the trip of the Noma od Gladys around the world? Can the mi.nister tell us whether or not they have been paid by the Gover1111ent of Canada yet? MR. SPEAKD.: The Ron. K:lDJ.ster of Touri8111. MB.. RICICEY: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker. I 8111 not their accountant, and I do not have any access to thett books. MR. HBAJlY: Mr. Speaker, a supplm.entary question.

Would the •illister then confirm that the cost of this press conference is being paid by the Government of Canada 'in part or in whole? MR. RICICEY: I have heard rU110urs, Mr. Speaker, that it has not been paid by the Govenaen.t of Canada. But if it is not, I do not know who i  paying it. This goveraaent certainly is not. MB.. RUJt.Y: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question - MB.. SPIADll: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MB.. ·111BA1tY: - a supplementary question to the aillister.

Would the tiini ter confira whether or not Cabot Group 4 was selected jointly by a representative of the External Affairs Depart:aent i>r by the Secretary of State's Departaent od the ainister's own department, if this -a a joint decision to employ Cabot Group 4T Mil. BICKET: Yes, I certainly will confim. that, -Mr. Speaker, deapite or no aatter what the External Affairs Department aigh~ say.

There _. a lady frc:a the Extenuu Affairs Deparblellt who visited this Province on ~t least two or three occaai01U1, who was not, I understand, connected v:l.th the project or at least not comiected directly at this particular tfae. .And, in fact, it vaa her idea, the whole idea_ of a press conference, It vu al~ her idea with regards to the .Japanese luncheon that we have beard ao auch about. And I do not know if the fact that she is not directly involved or connected with the project at this point. in t:IJle has any bearing on views or feelings of soae people in External Affairs.

If the hOllOUrable g-tleman, you knov, is at.tempting to drag saaething out. of ae, I can set. his •ind at ease,. There is no need to try to draw 6432

June 6, 1975 Tape no. 2160 Page 2 - mv anything out of e. What I have stated in this Bouse ia gospel. I will not be proven wrong. I do not know who is paying Cabot Group 4. I can only go on the information that is given me. I can only also go the reco-endations that are made to 11.e vith resards) :lJ1 the first instance of having a press conference, ill the second instance with regards to having a P.R. f:lrlll do it, and in the third instance in approving a recoanendation that a certain fua do it.

Row I regret that this whole project has been saeared as a result of what aa.e people might think to be something wrong. Bat I assure this Rouse, Hr. Speaker, and I woild not deceive this Bouse for one second, I assure this Bouse that there is nothing unpalatable, nothing :laproper or nothing wrong or underhanded with any facet or any part of the Hom and Gladys project in relation to its dealings with Cabot Group 4. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir.

Do I understand the lllin:l.ster correctly that he is sticking by a stateaent that he aade outside of this Bouse, quoted in the Evening Telegr- that the decision to a.ploy Mr. Brown's company, Cabot Group 4,vu a co~rdinated effort between a staff meaber of the External Affairs Department and the minister's department? Ia the minister confiraing that statement?to be correct? MR. HICKEY: Mr. S11eaker, I a not going to get into any wrangling, and I am not going co get into any technicalities. I• silllply saying, and I will restate what I have aaid before that it was not - MR. NEARY: Answer the question. MR.

HICKEY: I will answer the question when I - ready and in my own time and in my own manner, Mr. Speaker, and the honourabll gentleaan, I am not sure which one, should keep his mouth shut and be quiet and listen because people on that side should do a lot of listening and then they will not be mald.ng erroneous stateaents and, in fact, 11.Sldng a~ fool of themselves. It was aprime ezhibition we had last night. Hr. Speaker, I am simply stating that the decision to hire Cabot' Group 4 was not a personal decisinn by me.

I could not give two dllllllS who does the P.R. for the Nerma and Gladys or who conducted the press conference, 6433

June 6, 1975 Tape no. 2160 Page 3 - mw MR.lQWl:Y: Was it co,-01:dinated effort? MR.. 81-CXEY:Now I know what the honoui:able gentleman is up to. I could go on fc,r two hours to tell him what he is up to and I tell him now that he will briJlg forth a mouse and not a mountain, MB.. fflWlY: I am tty.iJlg - Mil. SPBAKEll: Order. please: SOME BON. H]gDQS: (Inaudible). 6434

June f;, 1975 Tape 2161 (Afternoon) PK - 1 !"fl! .• HICKEY: You are trying to drag somethinr. out of me that I am not going to . tell you because I am not going to lie to the House. HR. NF.ARY: Mr. - RON. MF.MBERS: Inaudible • . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the mi.nister a~are of a statement that he made outside of the House that the entire cost of this press conference to Cabot Group 4 would be paid by the Oovernment of Canada? Is the minister aware of making that statement? Was he in his right senses when he made this statement? And is it true? can the minister confirm or deny now whether it is true or false? MR.

SPEAKE!t: Order, please! This question is out of order. It is a statement of fact rather than a question. It has been phrased wrongly by the Member for Bell Island. MR. NF.ARY: Well, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: And it is out of order. MR. NFARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, could I ask the minister, Sir, if he would please give us a simple yes or no answer? MR. RICKEY: Yes, indeed. MR. NEARY: Will the entire cost of this press conference be paid by the Province or by the Government of Canada? And was it a coordinated decision to employ Cabot Group 4, yes or no? That is all. lt is just as simple as that. MR.

RI CKEY : What is the last part? Was it,what kind of a deal? MR. NEARY: Was it a joint effort, you know, was the decision taken jointly by the Province and the Government of Canada to employ Cabot Group 4 - Yes or no? MR. HICKF.Y: According to my information, Mr. Speaker, I have stated it already and now I repeat it. It was,according to my information, it was a joint reco11111endation to hire - MR. NF.ARY: Well that is all I want to know. ----- MR. HICKEY: - or to engage. NR. NF.ARY: That is all I want to know. MR. HICKEY: Number two, the Cabo~ Group 4 will not be paid by my department for this press conference.

MR. NF.ARY: Who will pay them? Who will pay them? 6435

June 6, 1975 Tape 2161 (Afternoon) MR. HICKEY: I assume, I have been told and I assume they will be paid for by the federal government. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know Your Honour if this is the opportune tillle to raise a question of privilege or do I wait until Orders of the Day to raise the question of privilege ., breach of privilege of the House, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. Ml.. NEARY: Can I - I think I have to do it,according to the Standing ltules, Sir, of this House I have to do it iDDnediately, HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. PK - 2 MR. NEARY: at the moment it occurs.

And I would like to have a ruling from Your Honour before I proceed. I mean do we interrupt the Oral Question period, Sir, on a matter of the question of the privilege of the House or do we wait imtil Orders of the Day? MR. SPEAICER.: The honourable member should raise a point of personal privilege in the Rouse at the earliest opportunity. MR. ROBERTS: Right now. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to raise a matter, Sir, that I consider to be a breach of the privilege of this honourable House.

It concerns, Sir, certain statements that were made both inside of th:f.s House and outside of this House by the Hon. Minister of Tourism concerning the involvement of «abot Group 4 Limited in arranging a press conference in which the ndnister announced that the vessel Norma and Gladys would tour the world. The ndnister, Sir, stated outside of the House that Mr. Browne's company, Cabot Group 4 was - MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. What the honourable minister said outside of the House obviously is not a question of privilege insofar as it relates to the questions that have been stated - AN HON.

MEMBER: He just repeated it inside of - MR. NEARY: He just repeated it inside of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: On a point of order - MR. HICKMAN: But if it is within the Rouse - HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable the Member for Bell Island in his comments as I recall said certain statements were made inside 6436

June Ii, 1975 Tape 2161 (Afternoon) PK - 3 and outside of the Rouse. MR. NF.ARY: That is right. The minister made certain statements outside of the Rouse, Sir, and confirmed these statements here in the Rouse this afternoon, Sir, that as far as he knew, and I presume he is acting on the advice, the information given him by his officials, ~- ROBERTS: He cannot hide behind that. MR. NEARY: ----- And he cannot - my colleague is so right, Sir, that is what I was about to say, the minister cannot bide behind his officials. The minister should know what is go·tng on in his department.

Add the minister made categorical statements, Sir, that the Cabot Group 4 ,,,as hired by the minister and his officials, that tbe ,· decision was taken jointly - coordinated - I will use his en.ct words, Sir, he sats it l,•as a coordinated effort between a staff member of the External Affairs Department and a member of Mr. Rickey's staff, and the entire cost~which he said he does not know, is to be borne by the federal government. Now, Sir, I am not allowed to say that is a lie. That is unparliamentary for me to say that. I cannot say it. I only wish I could, Sir.

But the information that I have - ~-=- HICKEY: Call me a liar. MR. NEARY: - the information that I have, Mr. Speaker, from the External Affairs Department indicates that the statement made both inside and outside of this honourable House by the Minister of Tourism in relation to this matter is not correct. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKEY: A point MR. SPEAKER: Order, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: MR. HICKEY: A point MR. SPF.AKER: Order, On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. No it is not a point of order. of order, Mr. Speaker. please! On a point of privilege. of order, Mr. Speaker. please! Order, please!

I would like to inform the honourable Minister of Tourism that a point of privilege takes °!)recedence over a point of order. 6431

June 6, 1975 Tape 2161 (AfteYJ10on) Pk - 4 AN HQN. MEHBE!t: Inaudible. • MR. NEAR"!'.: Mr. Speaker, I might say for the j_nformati.pn of t~ minister U be would just restrain ltimself for a few 1110ment that I 1.ntem to table these two docU1Dents that I have iu my hand Sir. But, Mr. Speaker ·, I have in front of me - SOME HON• l'EMBERS: (Inaudible) • Mil. NEARY:. Ye·s. all relat•- I have in front o·f me,Sir, a lett~ from the Secretary of State .for External Affairs writl!en to my colleague the Lead~r of the Opposition at: my request. 6438

June 6, 1975, Tape 2162, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: I want to read paragraph (3) of that letter, Sir, that contradicts what the minister has been telling this Rouse. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Read you letter. r.o ahead. MR. NEARY: I am going to read it. ~aragraph (3), Sir, contradicts all the statements that the minister has made in relation to this matter. Paragraph (3), Sir: "In connection with the press conference ~twas agreed once a decision in favour of the voyage had been taken that it should be nublicly announced in St. John's and Ottawa, with St.

John's to be the focal point for the announcement, and then my official would collaborate. My department was not in any way connected with the employment of or the cost for services performed by Cabot Group 4 Limited." Let me repeat that, Sir. Let me repeat that. MR. ROBERTS: Some flunky in the department, was it? MR. NEARY: This is a letter from Allan J .MacEachern, minister, minister of the department. MR. BARRY: What party does he belong to? HR.

ROWE: ----- He happens to be the minister who knows what he is talking about. ~ !_EARY: "My department was not in 2.ny way connected with the employment of or the cost for services performed by Cabot Group 4, Limi te<l." Now that was not the understanding that we were given here ' ' this afternoon, Sir, by the Minister of Tourism, and I submit, Sir, that the minister has violated the privileges of this honourable House and that the House should deal with the m:l.nister forthright for either deliberately or otherwise misleading this House and misleading the people of this Province.

The matter, Sir, has to be dealt with right away and whatever punishment is in involved, Sir, should be handed out by this House. And I am prepared, Mr. Speaker, if Your Honour will rule that there is a breach of the privilege of this House, Str, I am prepared to move a motion when Your Honour gives his ruling. MR. HICKEY: Does that work both ways? Will both be punished? MR. NEARY: ---- - Could I table thua documents, Sir? 6439 ..... · , .... ' ... . --,,. ; ., : ... .. "I. \ ~ , t..: -· .• ~ .-i !, . .. ,, .,~ , r - • ::- I ' • . '

June 6, 1975, Tape 2162, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKEY: Would the honourable gentle1nan agree that he be punished if I - AN HON. MEMBER: This ts a point of privilege, sit down. MR. HICKEY: ----- I am speaking to the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable the Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: I suspected when the honourable gentleman rose in his place what he was up to. The Leader of the Opposition did not have the guts to follow through on bis m:f.serable, feeble efforts to discredit this project as he bas attempted from day one. N<M why did he not t:lse in his place, 'lr.

Speaker, and create this onslaught that he started out with in place of his colleague today? No, he did not have the decency or the guts. He is loading the gun, Mr. Speaker, and the Member for Bell Island is going to fire it. Well now, that it too bad because you might get hit wit:h some of your own shots. Let me first of all report to the House, Mr. Speaker, that I ha-ve not this seesion,or ever, or will I ever, state anything in this chamber which is untrue . I will never decieve this House and I have never.

I call on the Leader of the Opposition to table the letter he received under the signature of the Minisc:er of External Affairs, the honourable Allan MacEachern. AN HON. MEMBER: He just tabled it. MR. HICKEY: He tabled it. Great! The honourable the Member for Bell Island should have read the last paragraph in which the Leader of the Opposition, acd I assume if it is the Leader of the Opposition, the External Affairs Department would also include all members of the Opposition in Newfoundnland to lend whatever assistance they can, and such assistance would be most welcome in bringing this project to a reality.

What the federal minister is actually saying, Mr. Speaker, quit this nonsense, quit this petty nonsense, this interrogation, this investigation about nothing and support the project because it means so much to Canada and so much to Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! Hear! MR. HICICEY: But no, Mr. Speaker, we do not hear anything about that. 6440

June 6, 1975. tape 2i62. Page 3 - apb Witch-buntli. MR. HICKEY: We do not bear anything about that• Mr. s~r. We hear a little bit of McCarthyism, a

section of the letter. I a well aware .of the fact that the Leader of the ()p'POSition has been trying desperately to try and paint this project to be s01Detbing it is not to attempt to implicate me because of my friend, Mr. Browne. But let me tell the Leader of the Opposition I will not atop dealing with Mr. Browne because he is a friend of mine and 1'ben 1 have to check with the Leader of the Opposition or indeed this House, to determine who I remain friends with, that lay is 110t going to come, Mr. Speaker: If I have to do that I would rather resign from public life. SOM!_RON. MEMBERS.: Good idea. 6441 , ,• ..

June 6, 1975 Tape No. 2163 NM - 1 MR. HICDY: God knows it - MR. THOMS: We get smeared all day. MR. HICDY: The honourable gentleman opened his mouth last night to change feet. Now be better be very careful because I have something in mind for him today too. Far,better, Mr. Speaker, far better, Mr. Speaker, for this House, the entire House, both sides, to do wllatevd they can to bring about this project to a reality because it means so much. They can laugh and sneer all they wish but, Mr. Speaker, I will state now that I will laugh last before this project comes to a successful end.

Now the External Affairs Department who do not want, Mr.Speaker, who do not particularly want to get into the detail of costing on this project,for obvious reasons. At a time when the cost of living is high, at a tiae when everyone is looking for money, they would rather not get into _the detail. But I have informed the officials of the External Affairs Department that I will only remain quiet for so long.

I am not going to have myself painted and the government of which I am a part as to paying for things that we are not collllllitted or indeed will not pay for, to involve ourselves or to have ourselves involved in aspects of the cost of this project which we did not agree to or bargain for, that in fact we approved this project because of the lopsided coat sharing formula by the federal and provincial govermaent, because of so little a financial contribution by this Province. It is simply the reason why I took this project to my colleagues and urged them to approve it which they did .

Now, Mr, Speaker, when one gives their word they do not like to go back on it, ButI gave my word to certain people,and I will not name th-, . :!,n the Bxternal Affairs Department that I would not get involved in detailed cost and with one qualification,Your Honour, I said unless the External Affairs Department is going to give details then I will not give them, until the project is over or until the project is well underway. The honourable gentleman who occupies the post of Leader of the Opposition, and I say occupy it because that is all he does, occupies it.

He does nothing creditable in keeping with his predecessor to earn the respect or establish its credibility as Leader of the Opposition by involving 6442

June 6, 1975 Tape No. 2163 NM - 2 hiaself in such petty, sniping tactics. He does not say anything about the federal contribution for the exhibit that is in the lower deck of that boat on which the orb;inal estimate, Mr. Speake.r, was $100,000. He made a big statement that their contribution was $80,000 only. The exhibit, Mr. Speaker, only the exhibit c:ame in with an estimate of $100,000. They tried to trim it down and I sat in on a meeting while they were trimming it down.

I think they finally got it to $60,000 and now they are told that they cannot even live with that, that it is going to go to $80,000- ~85,000 before it is finished. The honourable gentleman does not have details and will not get details, Mr. Speaker. on what costs outside Canada are going to be involved by the External Affairs Department in its many consulates and ambassadors abroad, wherever this vessel goes. To begin with nobody at this point in time can even put a handle on the cost. Those areas have budgets and the costs are unknown at this point in time but one thing is not unknown, Mr.

Speaker, one thing is known quite well by us and by me and that is they will pay the cost of all receptions, of all details of whatever arrangements are to be made, they are not to be borne by this Province. The honourable gentleman asked about the seaworthiness of the vessel did not hear anything about that. Because the External Affairs Department simply told them, we have been assured and we are prepared to accept what the provincial p.overnment have told u~ that they have a competent surveyor in the shipping industry who is prepared t~ give, who is prepared to ~ive a certificate to this vessel. 6443

June 6, 1975 Tape 2164 (afternoon) IH-1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable Minister of Tourism the Chair feels is getting into a debate, and the Chair has not ruled yet as to whether or not a bona fide case has been established, prima facie case,rather,has been established for a point of privilege. If the Chair rules that it is, then honourable members shall have the opportunity to present their arguments re that motion,whatever it might be. MR. RICKEY: To continue, Your Honour, there are some other details I have to give - MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, may I say a word to the question of whether there is a privilege - MR. MURPHY: Sit down. (Second

part inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I am asking the Speaker whether I may say a few words. I am not - MR. MDl!PRY: You should be ashamed. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from St. John's Center - MR. MURPHY: Go hide yourself in a glass. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the question is whether I may say a few words, on the question of whether or not a breach of privilege has been committed or not. I ask Your Honour to say whether I - MR. MURPHY: The gall of him standing up. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: - to say whether or not I may address myself to that question. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! No 0 The Chair is not prepared to listen to the honourable Leader of the Opposition or indeed any other member as to whether a point of privilege has been established or not. The Chair has ruled that the honourable Minister of Tourism is being much too long in addressing a few cODDDents to that point, and will permit him just a couple of more 6444

June 6, 1975 Tape 2164 (afternoon) IB-2 minutes to finish up. MR. HICKEY: Thank you, Your Honour. I felt I should give some detail and some background. I will now c0111e to the main point of privilege. The point of privilege, Kr. Speaker is that, the House privilege, whatever you want to call it - it does not make any difference to me - personal privilege, House privilege, not much difference - is that it is alleged that I gave wrong information to the House. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: You and I are deliberate liars. MR.

HICKEY: Now, Kr, Speaker, in any statement I made with regards to the cost of this so called press conference, I stated when asked that as far as I was concerned the federal government would bear the cost. Now, Kr, Speaker, I am not about to go into details how we wrangled money from the federal government because it has been proven time and time again that the other honourable gentlemen who were in sitting on this side of the House did a damn poor job of getting money from the federal government. So, I am not about to go into detail as to how this is done.

I at no time said the External Affairs Department would pay for the press conference, I said the federal government. I will state nothing further today other than to repeat, the federal government if Cabot - or better, Mr. Speaker, I had better qualify it by saying this. If Cabot Group 4 is paid,and I assume they do not provide services for free, if they are paid, they will be paid by an agency or government outside this Province. They will not be paid from public funds. Mr.

Speaker, I do not think I should be asked, and if I am asked, I have n·o intention of going in or providing the detail as to how that might be worked out. I know. I am simply stating a fact. Now, Mr, Speaker, I suggest to Your Honour no case of personal or Bouse privilege has been made against me. I do suggest, Your Honour, very strongly that the honourable Member for Bell Island,who has been used by the Leader of the Opposition, is guilty of a case of personal privilege against me.

I move that the honourallle gentleman be dealt with so that this kind of harangue will stop and cease once and for all because I am getting sick of it. If what the honourable gentleman says, that I cannot hide behind 6445

June 6, 1975 Tape 2164 (aftemoe>

n) IB-3 my officials b t:-rue, t:nen the honoural>te gentl~ ·should be in jail for his affairs on Bell Island with welfare. Mlt. SPEAJCER: «;>rder1 please! Ot:der, please! Order, please! The Chair would ask the honourable the Mi.nister of Tour.ism to withdraw those reldarks - lffl.. NEARY: And apologize to the Rouse. MR. SPEAKER: - with regards to the honoural>l.e member from - SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please!

If the Chair i.s to make rules that are to b.e hope.fully fair to both sides, then I think t.he Chair is entitled to hear what is being said. 'l'he Chair certainly considers the remarks made by .the honourable M.:lnfste,; of tourism with regards to the honourable Member for Bell Island - he should be in jail - as to be unparl.ialQelltaey. I would ask him to withdraw those reniarks. 6446

June 6, 1975 MR. HICKEY: Tape no. 2165 Page 1-- I have no hesitation. whatsoever• Hr. Speaker• in withdrawing those remarks. I simply used thea as an exaaple to prove my point that one is not, is only technically responaible in relying on their officials, and I simply drew a conclusion that if I were guilty, if I had to depend c011pletely and if I were to be found guilty on everything because -of •Y officials so is the honourable gentleman. MR. NEARY: Point of order. MR. SPEAXER: Order, please! Order, please! The Bon.

Minister of Tourism la speaking to a point of prirlleg1t which takes precedence over a point of order, The Chair baa already ruled on that once today. MR. DICKEY: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. SOME BON. KEMBBRS: (Inaudible) • MR. SPF.AICER: Order, please! MR. BICY.EY: I have no hesitation, Hr. Speaker, in retracting what I said with regards to the member for Bell lalSlld. MR. NF.ARY: No strings attached. MR. BICDY: If be were not so touchy, Hr. Speaker• be would accept it in the way in vhich I offer it. MR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: the honourable HR. NF.ARY: MR. DICKEY: (Inaudible). Order, please! Order, please!

I have no desire to tarnish the reputation of gentleaan for Bell Island. (Inaudible). He takes care of that h:buelf ac,st adequately. Mr. Speaker, I s:lmply ask Your Honour - I have dealt with what I said with regards to the aeaber for Bell Island. There is no malice between myself and the member for Bell Island. That is a dead issue. I a:IJD.ply drew a coaparison. And if he wants me to withdraw it again, I gladly will. I bold no malice towards hia. I s:IJD.ply say, Your Honour, thal be is being used in this particular instance, and I ask him to be man enougb)aa I have,to retract.

I ask , 6447 :• (, "\' -'~ : ~ - ;, . •. - .-.. ~ ,_. ~ .· ... ,. ! ti. ...

June 6, 1975 Tape no. 2165 Page 2 - mw him nov to be man enough to stand in his place and retract the charge by inference and innuendo as well as making it quite clearly and clearly stating it against me in terms of my being guilty of privilege of the Bouse. I ask him to do that in all decency. SOME HOR. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPF.AKER.: Order, please!

The Cbai.r will take the point of privilege raised under advisement and rule on it later and advise honourable llelllbers that they have consaed a considerable amount of time on this point of privilege which should be time for the question period and as a result of that there is only five minutes left for the question period. The Hon. Member for St. John's North. Kil. e&nn: I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the Bon. Minister of Justice. At the recent fire in St.

Phillip's where the school was • practically one lmndred per cent demolished, in fact only a very saall part of it vas saved, it was brought to my attention that the firemen there were harassed when they were t:ry1Jlg to put out the fire, In fact, they were atoned and their hoses were uncoupled and tangled. AR HOR. MEMBER: They were what? Mil. RICICHAN: Mil. CARTER: MB.. DOODY: HB.. CAllTEll: People threw stones at them. Threw stones at them. They were not bombed out. They were bombarded with stones. I would like to ask the Hinister of Justice whether he is aware of this?

And if be is, what steps be is prepared to take to see that this can never happen again? MB.. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Justice. MB.. HICKMAN: Mr. s_peaker, I have to admit that I aa. not aware of this. The honourable gentleman mentioned it to me. If indeed there is any substance at all to the sugr;estion made by the Hon. Member for St. John's Horth which I understand is that whilst firemen were fighting the fire ~tber people tried to :lapede their vork. If that is correct 6448

Junll! 6, 1975 Tape no. 216S Page 3 - - there vill be a most thorough investigation and if the evidence diacloses a prbaa facie case awift action vill be taken. KR.SPEAKER.: The Ron. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBEi.TS: In the abaence of the Premier and the Deputy Premier may I ask the Actiug Deputy Praaier, the Hinister of Juatice, whether he could tell the House whether the government have yet decided whether they are going to bring before the Bouse at tbi.s session legislation s:fmilar to the Rova Scotia legislation under vhf.ch the Public Utilities C-ission of that Province recently drastically cut proposed increases in the price of fuel and heating oils? MR.. SPEAKER.: The Bon. Htmber for Bell Island, MR. NEARY: Hr.speaker.

I lilOuld like to aak the H:lni.ster of Mines lPl-d Ene"y what steps have been taken to place the aatter of the applications from the Newfoundland Hydro Corporation, applicatio­ for increases in rates to place it under the juriadiction of the Public Utilities Board· and not have thea ea:mpt as they are now froa any investigation by the Public Utilities Board? KR. SPEADll: The Bon. Minister of Mines and Eneqy, MB.. BARI.Y: Mr.

Speaker, as I have said several tblea in tbi.s House and as the honourable •eaber well 1cnaws it is not the intent of this government to place the Hydro Corporation under the jurisdiction of the Public Utilities Board. It is 6449

June 6, 1975 Tape No, 2166 N'!-1 - l MR. BARRY: our intent to set up a Provincial Energy Board similar to the board which was set up in Ontario, will will have consumer representation, members of the general public on the board and which board will have the power of calling before it the officials of the corporation for explanations with respect to rates, with respect to the efficiency of the operations carried on by the corporation and so on. But, Mr. Speaker, it does not appear to be feasible to have a Crown Corporation subject to the jurisdiction of the Public Utilities Board as you would a private utility.

That is not what the Public Utilities Boawd was created for, We believe the same objective, the objective of scrutinizing the activities of the Corporation, the objective of keeping the Corporation on its toes, of keepin~ it efficient and cost consci.ous, can be achieved by the creation of this Newfoundland and Labrador Energy Board and we are in the process of working out the details of this. It will not be done for this session. I believe the last time I was asked this question I indicated the time period we were looking at was for this coming Fall or early Spring.

We have to give the Corporation time to plan for the method of keeping its information and so on, so that it can be in a position to comply with being under the jurjsdiction of such a board, It is not something that can be done just with the stroke of a pen overnight. The Corporation has been informed that this is going to be carried out and it will be done. But, Mr. Speaker, this will not mean, I want to stress this, this will not mean that the Corporation is subject to the Public Utilities Hoard, It will mean that it is subject to a completely different board, an energy board. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, could tell the House whether his government have any plans to nationalize, to purchase or expropriate the Newfoundland Light and Power Company thus eliminating a profiteering middleman who distributes power in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: I will peru•it the honourable minister to answer the question if he so desires and that will hrinr the question period to an end. 6450

Jun<> f., 1975 Tape No. 2166 NM - 2 '-'R. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member could show me the examples of profiteering that he alleges are being carried out hy this Corporation, I will be happy to have them looked at. The Public Utilities Board scrutinizes the operation of this Corporation, Is the honour~ble member saying that the Public Utilities Board is not performing its function as it should be, is this the point being made by the honourable member? I have said before, I will say again, that - MR. HICKMAN: The most competent Chairman of a Public Utilities ~oard in Canada. MR.

BARRY: Yes, that is acknowledged right across Canada that we have as a Chairman of the Public Utilities Board, the most competent of any of the Provinces. That is not the issue, AN HON. MEMBER: Tha.t is not the issue. MR. 11ARRY: And, Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the issue. MR. NEAR".: The advantages of privilege.- ~'R. SPEAKER: Order, please! XR. NF..ARY: - should go to the taxpayers. MR. BARRY: This Public Utilities Boatd is set up - this Public Utilities Board is set up to scrutinize the activities of private utilities - MR. NEARY: That is not the point. Do not - MR.

BARRY: - to ensure that they do not engage in profiteering, that they rlo not recover any more than a reasonable return on investment. ~m. NEARY: They roade $4.6 million last year. l'IR. BARRY: ~1r. Speaker, I can only assume that this honourable member in his usual underhanded way, through the backdoor, is trying to impui!Ile the performance of this board. Now, Mr, Speaker, I want to express government's confidence in the activities pf this board, I ,~ant to say that we have not been shown why it is of advantage or benefit to the people of this Province to nationalize Newfoundland l.1 r,ht and Power. MR.

NEARY: What did they do in Ontario? ~. SPEAKER: Order, please: 6451 I , ; ..

.:I. r · June 6, 1975 Tape No. 2166 N~! - 3 !lRDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Motion (3). bill no. 72. On motion of the ',onourable Minister of Justice, a bi LL, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Engineerin,:t Profession Act," read a first time, order2d read a second time on tomorrow • 6452

June 6, 1975 Tape 2167 (Afternoon) n- 1 On DK>tion of the Hon. Hi.nister of Justice. a bill. "An Act Further To Amend The lire Prevention Act," read a first t:hl.e, ordered read a second tille on tOB>rrov. carried. !-IR. RICKKAN: Presently by leave. ~- SPEAKER: Presently by leave? MR. NEARY: Ro, Hr. Speaker, we have the whole S..-er to do the business of this House. MR. RICKMAN: Okay. MR. SPEAJCER: On tomorrow. "R. RICKM!.~: Okay. ml. NEARY: The Fall too if necessary. "IR. flICD'.AN : Motion 5 - On DK>tion of the Hon.

Minister of Industrial Developaent, a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Establiabaent Of !be Labrador Coastal Development Corporation," r-d a first t:lae, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. carried. MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEAR.Y: KR. DOODY: Presently by leave. Why not do it nov? We got the whole S~ to do it - :'>OME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: this is a different -tter altogether. fffi.. HICKMAN: That is right. MR. NEARY: Why the priority? MR. SPEAKER: order. please! AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR . HICKMAN: Motion 6. On 11K>tion of the Hon.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Agreement Approved And Confiraed And Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Bo-ter's Na.foundland Act, 1938, And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To That Agreement," read a first time, ordered read a second t:lae,. MR. Nf!,RY: Pres:BDtly by leave. MR. HICK!l'AN: On tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: On tomorrow• carried. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. · 6453 ,.. .-. .: ..

Juue 6, 1975 Tape 2167 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. HICKMAN: Motion 7. On motion of the Ron. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Keeping Of Dogs," read a first time, ordered read a second t1.me - HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: AN HON. MF.MBER: Inaudible. Order, please! The year after next. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair is trying to hear what is heing said and the honourable members to my left and to my right keep interrupting. If they insist I would suggest they leave. A.~ HON. MEMBER: On tomorrow? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. HICKMAN: Motion 7. MR. SPEAKER: We just did Motion 7. MR.

HICKMAN: Motion 8. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "An Act To Provide For Livestock Insurance And To Create A Livestock OW'ners Compemsation Board," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, carried. MR. HICKMAN: Motion 9. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Increase Of Pensions Act, 1974," raad a first time, ordered read a second time - MR. NEARY: Presently by leave. MR. HICKMAN: On tomorrow. KR. SPEAKER: - on tomorrow, carried. MR, HICKMAN: Motion 10. On motion of the Hon.

Minister Of Municipal Affairs And Housing, a bill, "An Act Further 'l'o Amend The Department Of Municipal Affairs And Housing Act, 1973," read a f-1.rst time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 6454

June 6, 1975. Tape 2168 1B - 1 On motion of the Hoo. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Local Government Act, 1972," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act To Amend The R~ulation Of Millea Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time onrt0110rrow. Ola motion of the Hon.

Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act To Limit The F:lnancial Responsibility Which May Be Incurred By The Province In Respect Of Newfoundland And Labrador Hydro Without Reference To The Legislature," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On notion of the Bon. Minister of Social Services, a bill, "An Act To AJnend The Welfare Inatitutiona Licensing Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on toaorrow. On 1110tion of the Hon. Minister of Social Services, a bill, "An Act Respecting Day Care And Bollemaker Services, " read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the Bon. Minister of Transportation and eo-m.tcations, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Motorized Snow Vehicles And All-Terrain Vehicle• Act," read a first time, ordered read a second t:lae on toaorrov. On motion of the Bon. Minister of Fisheries, a bill, "An Act To Rat;ify, Confirm And Adopt A Guarantee Agre-nt Made Between RoyMarine Leasing Limited And The Government Ati8 Fishery Products Limited," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 6455 > • ; '1 .r • ... .; . ~ . ,- .

June 6, 1975 Tape 2l~q (afternoon) IP.-1 On mtion that the Fouse resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on said hills. Mr. Speaker left the r.hair. A bill, "An Act Respecting The Transfer Of Certain J.ands From Reid Newfoundland Limited And Mines And Forests (Newfoundland) T.im1 ted To Her Majesty in Right of Newfoundland." On motion clause (1) through clause (3) carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall cl~use (4) carry? MR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, T would like to ask the minister is there any special reason why the government picked on this date of July 23, 1974? 'Why not, you know, August 23, 1975?

Any particular reason for that date? AN HONOURABLE 'ME~ER: Inaudible. M'R. HICKMAN: Oh, yes. lt was the date of the conveyance, t.'hen the Jands were conveyed to the government. _AN RONOUR,\BLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the recitals carry? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. before they are carried, I wonder if the Minister of Justice could tell us whether Reids have been paid any money yet or will they he paid now once this bill becomes law? Rave they been paid and if so how much have they been paid? MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I cannot answer the exact amount which they have been paid but the amount of money which was negotiated, you knot.', to pay Reid in return for the land is to be paid over a three year period. So, there was a payment in 1974. In 1975 there is a payment this year, and I believe next year. I can get the exact figures for the honourable - MR. NEARY: Is it in the estimates? MR. HICKMAN: It is in the estimates, yes. MR. NEARY: Well, how much was in there for Reid? HR. HICKMAN: I do not re,uember offhand. Motion, that the committee report having passed the h111 without amendment, carried.

A bill, "An Act Respecting The Provision Of Funeral Services." On 1110tion clause (1) through clause (9) carried. MR . CRAIR1".AN: Shall clanse (10) carry? 6456

June 6, 1975 Tape 2169 (Afternoon) MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on clause (10), it is a general question but I think it is in order. As Your Honour will understand, I was not able to ask the question at second reading sta~e. 6457 IB - 2

June 6, 1975 Tape no. 2170 Par,e l - mw I think I know the answer but I would like for the minister please - I guess the Minister of Justice has inherited this one. His new-made colleague seems to have flown the coup unless that is he coming behind. AN HON. MEMBER: He had to leave for the N.M.A. MR. ROBERTS: Had to leave for the N.M.A. Well, I think, the minister then is in better hands than I am at present having to deal with the Minister of Justice.

Would the minister just give us an assurance that-many people, as he knows, feel strongly on this point - that there is no way under this regulatory power or elsewhere in the act that it can be made mandatory in the usual circumstances that a deceased person's remains be embalmed before burial? I understand thst to be the policy but I want to be certain on the point. KR.. HICKMAN: It is the policy, Mr. Chahman, and again I discussed it with the Bon. Minister of Health before he left.

And I was waiting for the appropriate time to give that assurance that there i s nothing in this act which makes it obligatory in any way that the person who wants to proceed or have a funeral in this manner as they always traditionally hold them in Newfoundland, through the church, is obliged to use any undertaker. HR. ROBERTS : I thank the ministet", Kr. Chair111an. And a further question along the same lines. Has there been any consultation with - there is at least one group, I am not sure bow large it is or anything else. I think they call themselves a Memorial Society.

They feel, as do many people, very strongly about some of the issues which can be dealt with in this type of legislation. Have there been any consultation with that group? Have they been sent a draft bill? If so, what is their position? HR. HICKMAN: So I will not mislead the condttee, my understanding and the advice thst I received soae time ago from the Hon. Member for Carbonear was that there were indeed meetings with this group. I think they are sort of centred at Memorial or they meet at Memorial University. 6458

June 6, 1975 Tape no. 2170 Page 2 - mw MR. ROBERTS: Many of the members are active. MR. HICKMAN: And they had no olJection to this piece of legislation. I do not know how many times they 11et or where. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, again I thank the 111inister and, you know, there is no real way he can know of nor can any of us of how many t:lmes th~y aet. Let 11e again ask a further question which could also be dealt with under Clause (17), Sir. Is it still possible in this Province when this act becomes law to have a funeral without engaging the services of a funeral director?

And there is an exception in Clause - no, Clause (17) deals with people acting as funeral directors who are not funeral directors, you know, in certain narrowly defined circUJ11Stances. But what I want to know is if a peraon wishes, and we are dealing,as the ain.ister would appreciate,vith a aatter which has public health aspects, very real public health aspects which has legal or forensic aspects. But those are covered now by t't!,e requirement that there must be a death certificate and magisterial enquiries or coroners' enquiries, you know, in certain cases or in certain circlDIIJt&nces.

But we are dealing with atters that touch upon the very deepest feelings and feelings that come at a time when matters are felt e;ven more deeply by persons than they normally would. Is it still possible and will it be possible for a person or persons to bury deceased people, deceased persons, without recourse to the services of a funeral director? MR. HICXMAN: I believe the honourable gentleman means aa it is today. As I qnderstand it that is a repetition of the first question the honourable gentleman asked. MR. ROBERTS: No, no. The first one was about embalming. MR. HICKMAN: Oh! MR.

ROBERTS: About a law coming in that everybody must be embalmed. MR. HICKMAN: Well again 1 as I said, I felt that that was an all­ embracing question, and I gave an all-embracing answer that to my knowledge there is nothing in this legislation. The Hon. lU.nister of Health assured me before he left that this legislation is to apply to 6459

June 61 1975 Tape no, 2170 Page 3 - mw people who hold themselves out as funeral directors and embalmers. But in so many. not so many any more 1 but in certain areas of the Province where there are no funeral directors or funeral services or licenced funeral directors that if anyone wants to continue to follow the existing tradition of simply going to the clergyman and saying. will you please bury me, here is the death certificate, this act does not prohibit in anyway that that be done. HR.. llOBEllTS: But, Mr, Chairman. the minister has not allayed my fears. MB., BICDIAN: (Inaudible). HR..

ROBEllTS: The laughter is that the minister said that maybe he can but others of us who are mere mortals find it difficult to go to a clergyman, and I think I quote the minister precisely when he says, here is my death certificate, please bury ae. It is like a former 6460

June 6, 1975. Tape 2171 RH - 1 colleague of mine in the House who used to inveigh against, in his words, strikes against the dead and the dying with reference to the hospital disputes. But let me come back because I am not sure I made my point clearly and certainly the minister has not sati•fied me, Sir. As I understand the law, now that is a qualification, it is lawful today in this Province for a person to be buried without engaging the services of a funeral director.

The law requires a death certificate and it requires s0111e very, you know, there are also some rules about where a body may be buried and there are health aspects as well in that. Then as well, there are rules or indeed there is protection of the criminal code governing the disposition of remains, of a person's reaai~s. But the minister said aa I heard him just now, Mr. Chairman, that nothing in this bill would change the siauation in an area of the Province where there is no funeral director. I am concerned with the situation here in St. John's where there are a number of funeral directors.

Indeed, my neighbour for eight or ten years was certainly la well-lcnown funeral director, Mr.Geoffrey Carnell whose firm is a very well known one and very active in this kind of work. The point is,will it be possible for a person or a family, whoever is in charge of the disposition of a person's remains,to bury those remains or to dispose of them by cremation without having to hire a funeral director if that family so wishes. Have I made the question clear? MR. HICKMAN: Yes indeed. HR. ROBER.TS: Okay, and perhaps the minieter could ieal with it. HR~ HICJOIIN: I am looking for, Mr.

Chairman, and I have to confess I am looking for the answer here and this bill, it is the first time I have seen the thing, I draw the honourable gentleman's attention to section (17) • MR. ROBERTS: Section (18). MR. lllCKMAN: (17) • MR. ROBERTS: (17). But that only deals with areas where the services of a licensed funeral director are not available. 6461

June 6, 1975. Tape 2171 RH - 2 MR. BICKMAN: Not withstanding anything contained in this act for the purpose of serving the public in sparsely settled areas of the Province where the services of a licensed funeral director are not available - MR. ROBERTS: MR. BICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS : are available. Yes. Well now, let us take St. John's. The service - Yes, it would not apply to St. John's where services MR. HICKMAN: No, no, I am using it in reverse. St. John's is a place where the services of a licensed funeral director are available, right? MR. ROBERTS: Right. MR.

BICKMAN: The Board may, subject to the regulations, issue permits to perfora the services of a funeral director to persons who are not licensed as funeral directors under this act. MR. ROBERTS: MR. BICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS : persons . ­ MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. BICKMAN! MR. ROBERTS: But that is - I am just wondering if - That only says they can issue licenses to unqualified That is right. - where there are no qualified persons. That is right, yes. But what I want to know is if I die tomorrow and if my fmaily aay they do not wish to engage the services of a funeral director - MR. BICKMAN: Can they go out - MR.

ROBERTS: Is this Board that we are now creating going to say, you shall not, you must retain a funeral director. MR. BICKMAN: Well, all - I cannot speak for what the Board intends to do but - MR. ROBERTS: But have they the power to do it? MR. HICKMAN: Well, a very cursory look at this act here this afternoon, I cannot find a power conferred upon the Board to make regulations in 6462

June 6, 1975. Tape 2171 RH - 3 that field. Now, if the honourable gentleman sees one there that he would like to point out to me - MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I share the minister's - legislation, it can be done, The conclusion of the minister's cursory glance, mine a little more than cursory but still I would not claim, Sir, to be expert in any area of the law, in particular, the proposed act, the section (10) now before the Conmittee. Well, could the minister"give us an assurance that it is the policy of the minister. I mean a lot of people feel very deeply on this issue. MR.

HICKMAN: Right. MR. ROBERTS: And they may not hundreds and thousands of them but it is an important isaue of, really, of hU111an rights because I believe, Mr. Chairman, that a person subject to the criminal law where it is relevant and subject to the - MR. HICKMAN: Health. MR. ROBERTS: - public health requirements, s person has the right to do as he wishes with the remains of his earthly body. I mean that. A nerson should be able to will it to the university for uses, medical, you know, in the anatomy courses. We have

an act now to permit that in Newfound- land. It is standard. It is model act across Canada. I would like to see a provision put in that I may do that by direction that is binding upon my heirs and executives,although I cannot do that now. I can cut them out of my will if they do not do it my way but I cannot make them do it. You know, what is it? The property in, it is an offensive phrase but it is the legal phrase, the property in a dead body,as Your Honour will agree, rests with the personal representatives of the deceased. There is a first year law for a case.

That is about as far as I got in that area of the law. But can the minister assure us that the policy is firm. You see, what we are doing, Mr. Chairman, and what this regulatory power does, the minister is right insofar as he goes whe~ he says that all we are doing is sort of conferring upon a group of men and women who now practice as funeral directors and embalmers, we are incorporating them 6463 .. ' -;~('. ~~ _;. ,I, •• ~ • • r./~· •_; .. .. : i -. '· ·, ·! 1:.- • .. ~ ., ... J•

June 6, 1975 Tape 2171 and that is a good thin~• We are not debating the principle of the bill but we would agree the principle is a good thing - upgrade standards, protect the nublic, provide for disciplinary measures, all very good, But at the same time in most of these incorporation acts ru1 - 4 6464

June 6, 1975 Tape No. 2172 NM - 1 we are getting into closed shops situations.

Now I can see where no man practice as a funeral director or no WOFan, unless he or she has been licenced, I mean that is the pith and substance of the legislation,but I do not want to see the other side of that, whereby this board which under-section (10) has certain powers, and I do not want it to sneak in in any way, where that board can then say it is now mandatory that before a person's remains can be buried in this Province a funeral director must be hired and all I ask of the minister is his assurance as a matter of policy,and that is as far as he can go, that that is not the policy of the ministry and if it should come about that people try to do that, that the ministry will take the steps that are necessary to prevent it.

That is all I ask really. I think it is a very reasonable request. MR. HICKMAN: I have no hesitancy in giving the honourable gentleman and this CoDD11ittee that assurance. Their regulations I presume would have to be approved by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council 1would it not? I hope. MR. ROBERTS: No, Minister only,and I mean we all know how these things get rushed through. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, things are really getting pretty dead in this House now, Sir.

My colleague is absolutely right, Sir, the Leader of the Opposition,that really what he is talking ahout is the high cost of dying and the Leader of the Opposition is merely trying to pin the minister down to making a coDD11itment that once this bill is passed that it will not be compulsory - MR. HICKMAN: Right. MR. NEARY: - ~o employ the services of a funeral director, whether it is in St.

John's or over in Harbour Grace where my honourable and,I was going to say learned, my honourable friend the }!ember for Harbour Grace practices as a funeral director, that it not be compulsory, This is the point the Leader of the Opposition is making that - MR. HICKMAN: That is right. Well,I have given that assurance. MR. NEARY: Right. Okay. Fine. Now so we have that assurance now and we have the minister on the public record as saying that this will not be 6465 ..... • .. . . ''

June 6, 1975 T;,. ·e No, 2172 NM - 2 so whether it is in an urban cu.tre or in the rural part of Newfoundland, that it will not develop into, closed shop. Now, Sir, would the minis tr, enlighten us on paragraph (

b) of section (10) prescribing courses of training ar,d educational requireme~ts for the licencing of persons to practic-,• embalminr in the Province. Where will these courses be run? WiJ ! they be run at the vocational schools, at the College of Trades and Te•·hnology, Will the university that is so strapped for money, who have just introd•,ced a rnusi c course and who run courses in Newfouil.dlan<' folklore at the u1,iversity and all kinds of other courses, will this course be run at Memo··ial University?

Fill they now brinp in somebody frc,m Europe or the UniLed States to run a course in embalrnin!' and funeral direction'? Will thi·se courses be sponsored by Canada Manpower? Will Canada Manpower now set up a branch to nm courses to give students financial assistance to run courses in embalming? Finally, Sir, what about on-the-job training? There is provision here for apprentices.

Will the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations, my friend the Minist.-r of Manpower and Industrial Relations, will he direct his Director of :'mployment,if he has one over there, or Director of Apprenticeship Trafr ing, will he now d lrect this gentleman to run an apprenticeship progra· 11e, on-the-job tl!'aining for embalmers? Just what sort of training will this be? Will the minister tell us what course this training will take and,Mr. Chairman, will the minister also tell us when he is on his feet if there is a grandfather clause in this legislation?

What about all the people now who are practicing funeral directors in this Province, will they automatically be licenced? Do they have to undergo any training? How did they become experts in emblaming and in - MR. ROBERTS: Cosmetology. MR. NEARY: - in providing funercLl services, Did they take courses? Did they just get the knowledge of hurying people from practical experience? 6466

June 6, 1975 Tape 2173 (Afternoon) MR,~ICKMAN: Are you still asking a question? HR. NF.ARY: Yes, Sir. I hope the minister is making notes - I ho~e the minister is aaking notes.I am asking a whole series of questions. MR. RICKMAN: I got all three written down. AN HON. MEMBER: A serious matter. MR. NEARY: Will they have to write tbls exam ·or will PK - 1 they ju&t automatically be given licences? Will they be called in now by the Minister of Education and told that they have to write an exam, and unless they can pass the examination as embalmers that they will not rece;1-ve their licence?

And how can you revoke a licence, Sir? Row can you suspend the licence of a funeral director or an embalmer? On what grounds? Could the minister tell us~for instance,if a licence could be suspended? If the funeral director lost the body, lost the corpse would his licence be suspended?would that be considered to be a violation of the act and of the regulations? The Minister of Industrial Development can laugh at that, but, Sir,- · MR. DOODY: ~- NEARY: I am not laughing. - I have heard - t,N !JON. MEl-fBER: Inaudible. MR.

NF.ARY: - I beard, Sir, that - and my colleague the I.eader of the Opposition made reference to the fact that we now have

an Act whereby you can donate your body to the University for regearch. MR. DOODY: I heard yours was rejected. MR. NEARY: They have a branch in the new Medical School, I think, where they - what is that called _. anatomy? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: A,~ ]'ON. MEMBER: MR. '.l'EARY: Inaudible. Anatomy courses. And two bodies - Inaudible. - I do not know if this is true or not, Sir, but I am told that two bodies were sent from New Yo~k to the Medical School and they were lost enroute and have not heen found yet. HR. DOODY: Yes, they are. They are in the Liheral caucus at Ottawa. 6467

June 6, 1975 Tape 2173 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. NEARY: No. AN HON. MEMBER: Row true. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.Chairman, I am told this,! do not know if it is true of not, and it is very unlikely I guess that it could happen in the Province,but sending bodies in and out of the Province, Sir, is very likely that it could happen. And I am told that it did happen in the case of these two bodies that were shipped from New York to our Medical School here. And I do not know whose responsibility it is. Is it the responsibility of the Medical School?

Were these bodies shipped from New York to the Member for Harbour Grace or to Mr. Carnell or to Caul's Funeral Rome? MR. DOODY: I think they are on the payroll. MR. NEARY: Or ware they shipped - well everybody else is on the payroll over there. I do not know if they had beards - if they had - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: - maybe they are the ones who are teaching folklore, I do not know - well, Sir, I understand - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MR, NEARY: - they are from Brooklyn the two gentlemen who are teaching Newfoundland folklore at the University, or New York, But,Sir,would they be shipped directly to the Medical School? Would they be obligated to take delivery of these corpses at the airport or at the railway station or however they shipped them or would they be shipped in care of a funeral director in Newfoundland? This is a very interesting question, Sir, And if they were lost, as I am told two bodies were, would the funeral director in Newfoundland then lose his licence? Would he be suspended? 'MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: MR.

HICKMAN: MR, NEARY: They would call in the CPR. And what about - I beg your pardon? We would call in the CPR to replace the CN, These are some of the questions, Mr. - SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Ir.audible) • 6468

June "-, 1"75 Tape 2173 (Afternoon) PK - 3 _l~_!!EAR_Y_:_ These are some of the questions, Sir, that I would U.te to see ansnered. Fvery person who is not less than nineteen years of ap,e and has compiled with the requirements of this Act - A~! HON. tnmBER: Tnaudible. !~~- NEARY~ - comolied - and the regulations for the grant of it - ,.,1,y nineteen, Sir? The voting age in this Pro·Tince is now eighteen. The age of majority is n:lneteen, •m. }IF.ARY: And the age of majority is still twenty--one. ''ffi. l'ICK'~AN: No, nineteen. ~"' NEARY: 'lineteP.n is it? Well nineteen. The age of maiority is nineteen. ,m.

ROBERTS: -·- --- - --- You vote before you obtain your majority ••• That is right. You can go out and vote, but you arf' not comddered to he eligible to take a course in embalming or in funeral direction. And what will these courses entail, Sir? I nP.an there is quite a bit of emphasis here on licencing and cour~es, but what 'will they entail? You know, bow would you determine .-},_ether a fun<>ral director has passed the couri;e or not? Would the }1inister of Education or the Minister of ManJ)OWer go down and examine the stiff, look at the body, judge it on the basis of the make-up?

You know, I have often gone to a funeral home, Sir, and T have heard neo!'le say - AN H0N. HF.'IBER: Inaudible. 'ffi.. ~lEARY: - I have heard people say, Sir, and they really mean well .,,hen they say th1.s, that I never saw him look better. That is nro!--ahlv ,,hat we will be saying about the Minister of Industrial flevelo,:,ment, I. never saw him look better. But they do say this, Sir, because the ma~e-un rejuvenates the individual and makes him look very good. Well is this how they will pass their exam? 6469

June 6, 1975 Tape 2174 (afternoon) Will they have to go down, Sir, at the Health Sciences Complex when it is completed and watch autopsies beinii; performed. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No. Then what? AN HONOURABLE MEMRER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Nothing to do with it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. Tll-1 MR. NEARY: All right, Sir. Well, I cannot wait, Sir. I am waiting with bated breath here to hear what the Member for Harbour Grace has to say about these questions I am raising, Sir. Because I am sure that he is a walking encyclopedia on - AN HONOURABLE MID4BER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: He has it on funeral direction. I do not know if he has a license. I do not think there is any such thing as a license yet, is it? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible • MR. NEARY: 'ntere is a license now. Where do you get your license to now? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: In Nova Scotia. MR. NEARY: In Nova Scotia. Well then, the Member for Harbour Grace, Sir, is probably the most qualified person in this Province to talk about funerals. I would say, Sir, before this year is over he will probably be talking about his own political funeral. But, Sir, I will take my seat.

I am anxious to hear what the honourable Member for Harbour Grace has to say in answer to some of these matters I have raised which I think are quite important. MR. YOUNG: Kr. Chairman, yes probably I will get - I do not know if I can tell it in full detail, Sir, but I will do my best. As for training, first I will go back to what the Leader of the Opposition, one of the questions the Leader of the Opposition asked. I was on this committee when these things were drawn up, and there was - AN HONOUR.ABLE MEMBER: Inaildible. MR. YOUNG: This bill was drawn up or prepared - MR, ROBERTS: By fu~eral directors? MR.

YOUNG: Yes. It was done by the Department of Health in consultation 6470

Jnne fi, 1~75 Tape 2174 (afternoon) IB-2 with the Memorial Society. I am sure that ~hey are at least in agreement with just about everything that is here. As for training, Sir, you train here now - In Newfoundland you get the license from the Department of Health. Tf you want to advertise as a certified embalmer, you must practice at least one year as a certified embalmer. Now, there are not many embalmers outside of St. John's who are certified embalmers. Personally I went to - Certified by -}{R. NEARY: ~. YOUNG: By the Jlepartment of Health AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: . Inaudible. MF. YOUNG: Yes, they are.

I am a certified emr.almer. !-JI 'R')NOTTRABLE ~MBER: Ry our Department of Healtl•'? }''P.. YOUNG: Your Department of Health. MR. 'ROllEl!TS: It is not my depart'll!eTlt but perhaps - l'fl'. Ymmr.: By the Department of Health, the Government of Newfoundland Department of Health downstairs will certify that I 811 a certified embalmer. When I get - I have made out an application - ''!R. ROBERTS: When was the honourable gentleman certified? Pardon? }II:. ROP.ERTS: When was the hononrable gentleman certified1 ~'J'. YOtTNr.: Jn 1%9. MP.

RORERTS: ll£-fore i'lex was minister and not - ~- YOUNr.: I no not snppose it matters. ''Tl. ROBF.FTS: gentleman. HP. YOUNr,: there. •irst

part inaudible. I never certified the honourable I wf 11 circumcise you. I went to N0va Scotia. I trained ~- 11on~ When they 'iad the honourable gentleman, they threw away the best part. MJ:- . YOllNr.: Perhaps that :Is :It, yes. I c.!lme bacl , and I wrote an P.XA!ll:lnation, and I was - I cl0 not know, Probably the man, the man , the ex;aminer 1,1'10 I "t·rote the examination for was rrobably afraid to )n0k ~t sorePnne rlean, you know. So - AN JlONOlTPA!lLE ,.,El-'llFF: Inaunihle. HP. YOT ''IC::: Afraicl to look at a remains. So, I no not think he knew ton much ahout embalming, the fellow who certified - you know what I mean. 6471

June 6, 1975 Tape 2174 (afternoon) J.o!R. ROBERTS: Well, there was an examine - MR. YOUNG: Yes. IB-3 MR. ROBERTS: - and the honourahle member was certified following that? :MR. YOUNG: Now, et the present time in Newfoundland, you go up to Carne1l's or some - these people went away and got their training. I am sure every man et Carnell 's is a certifierl - HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. YOUNG: I can practice in Nova Scotia because I learned in Nova Scotia. MR. ROBERTS: Embalming there any different than embalming anywhere else? MR. YOUNG: No - MR. ROBERTS: Could the honourable gentleman go to Ontario? MR.

YOUNG: I cannot. I have to go end write for a license up there, you see. MR. ROBERTS: Well, that is all. MR. YOUNG: Every Province has a different - MR. ROBERTS: Lawyers have the same thing. MR. YOUNG: Yes, that is it. I mean Ism probably not qualified - Now, getting back to embalming, Sir. That is where the training is involved. You are asking - the honourable Member for Bell Island said, what would disqualify you from practicing. Well, there are headaches in this too also. There was one person last year in this Province who should be if we had had this act in, disqualified from practicing as a funeral director.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. YOUNG: No, he was a member of the Atlantic Association, Funeral Directors Association and they - MR. ROBERTS: That is a trade association. MR. YOUNG: Yes, I know. Rut he would be allowed to P!actice in Nova Scotia now because of this act - MR. ROBERTS : practicing. Is somebody now practicing who should not be MR. YOUNG: If we had these rules and regulations, he would not ~e allowed to do it • I would say yes. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: What grounds did they have to do that sort of thing? 6472

June 6, 1975 MR. YOUNG: "'a!le No. 2175 NM - 1 Well, I do not know. It was a court case and I do not know if I should speak of it. But, for instance, look, I know - let me speak about Nova Scotia, no,New Brunswick last year, There was one person, a funeral director who lost his licence by a funeral arrangement made in Toronto with an expensive casket.And it was discovered that after that casket came down for that person to be buried in New. Brunswick, that the funeral director switched caskets and put him in a much cheaper casket. MR. ROBERTS: The New Brunswick ftmeral director. }1R. YOUNG: Yes. MR.

RORERTS: That is criminal fraud. MR. YOUNG: Yes, and therefore he was disqualified and barred from - MR. RIJBERTS: Ile should have been put in jail. MR. ~OUNG~ Yes, well I do not know if he was or not. So these are sorne the thinr.s, Now the requirements with regards to a funeral - MR. ROBERTS: You do not need a board just to take care of that. The fellow should have been put in jail. MR. YOUNG: Well, I do not know if he was or not. But he also lost the ri~ht to practice in New Brunswick and there are quite a few more of these things.

Losinr- bodies and so forth, I do not know - the only requirements that we have in Newfoundland probably by the Department of Health today to ship a remains out of Newfoundland is what TCA or Air Canada or EPA tell us. !Im. ROBERTS: Two first class air fares. t1R. YOUNG: No, I think they require that human remains must l-·e embalmed. MR. POBERTS: Or medically sealed as embalmed. MR. YOUNG: Yes, medically sealed - then, Sir, you were asking - MR. ROBERTS: Two first class dr fares, MR. YOUNG: No we go by air freight now1 All air freight now. MR, ROBERTS: It used to be t1ilo first class air - MR.

YOUNG: Yes, but all air freight now. And something else you asked there, concernfng if you can have a private ~uneral, you know what I mean, do it on your own, Now I do not know if there is anything to stop you from doing it, but where would you in St, John's today and there is no act there at all, 6473

.June 6, 1975 Tape No. 2175 be able to conduct a private funeral, MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. NM - 2 MR. YOUNG: No, you know I mean the services there and who would have the equipment, you would have to go and hire the equipment from your funeral director. MR. ROBERTS: You could go dig a grave in your backyard if you want to. MR. YOUNG: I do not think so. MR. ROBERTS: There is no law against it. MR. YOUNG: I think there is. MR. ROBERTS: Is there a law requiring _you to be buried in a true burying ground? MR. YOUNG: Yes. Yes. MR. ROBERTS: I do not think there is. Who approves a burying ground?

The Health Department Department approves their location. MR. YOUNG: Well I mean I have got no - MR. ROBERTS: I know - MR.. YOUNG: What other question was asked? MR. ROBERTS: ••••••••• if there is any loophole? I know of no law. which says a person must be buried in an approved bu~ing place. It is a good point to check. MR. YOUNG: I do not know. But I suppose we are really on a more or less the religious denominational thing and - MR. ROBERTS: Some people's religion is no religion. MR. YOUNG: Yes. Well I do not know whether - I have never run into these.

Usually on the Mainland now most of the cemetaries are convened and run by civic officials. MR. ROBERTS: The churches do not require a funeral director to serve as - MR. YOUNG: No. No. MR. "ROBERTS: in St. John's. They open the grave. They do not have to hire a funeral director - MR. YOUNG: To open the grave. 6474

June 6, 1975 Tape No. 2175 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: - to open the grave at Mount Pleasant Cemetery, I mean, or Holy Sepulchre or Mount Carmel 1is it,: on Topsail Road? MR. YOUNG: I do not know if there are 1110re I could answer. I mean ask me and I will try to • I am sure that - MR. ROBERTS: I thank the honourable - This is more lively than most of the matters the ministry have brought before the House, Mr. Chairman. I might add it is at least of equal importance with much of the legislation.

I thank the gentleman from Harbour Grace, he and I had passages at ams and at arms length but 1 you know,not on this matter, bat : the Minister of Justice might look into it or somebody who has had occasion . to look up the law on the matter. I do not think there is any requirement in Newfoundland that a body must be buried only in a, or can be buried only in an approved burying place. I know of• now I know of places for example in St.

Anthony I Sir, Wilfred and Lady Grenfell and three or four other people, their cremated remains, but I mean it is still what is left of a human body after the creaation, are buried in a cairn or in a special place across, atop a hill called Tea House Hill and there is a plaque there.

I know in Williamsport, just south of, between Hooping Harbour and Harbour Deep and White Bay• there were four people killed in a plane crash, five I am sorry, four of them were Japanese working at the whaling plant at Williamsport and there is a Shinto Memorial, I use the term memorial, I do not know what the term is in the Shinto belief, but anyway there is a Shinto Memorial there that was placed there by the Japanese because the men who were killed ahered to the Shinto faith. I do not think there is a requirement, 6415

June 6, 1975 Tape 2176 (Afternoon) PK - 1 requirement nor to 111y - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well my friend reminds me, you know, crypts in churches - I know of a case where, you know, a bishop or a high church official has been interr~d in a crypt in a church. I mean that is an old tradition going right back I suppose to the Catacombs and to St. Peter's in - the Popeg, Sir, are interred in St. Peter's in Rome, you know, which is the Pope's church as Bishop of Rome. The - I think it is. Is St. Peter's in Rome, the City of Rome or the Vatican? But in any event, ~r.

Chainnan, you know, there is - AN HON. MEMBER: What about Vestminster? MR. ROBERTS: - whether or not - we111 Westmin.ster Abbey - maybe the honourable gentleman for Harbour Grace could answer this question for me. I have always wondered - he has been - has the honourable gentleman seen Westminster Abbey or some of the English churchesT Well,you knm1, they are covered with - and this is relevant to regulations, Your Tionour. There is a point here about regulations. I mean we should have regulations on this point. You know, the floor is covered with plaques, here lies - well the famous one is Pepys in llt.

Paul's, you know, it is vritten on his tomb "If you would see his monument look about you." He was the architect of that great r.athedral. But bishops and men and women are - you know.- plaques there, some of them very old.

It is a great industry to go along and to make ~rass rubbings to, you know, to rub the brass with a - the same thing "'e used to do with pennies and a bit of lead - Your Honour doubteless out in Boir:;arlos of an evening as a young lad would take a penny or a nickel, depending on the state of affluence at the moment, and, you know, put a bit of paper over it and rub it ~nth a lead pencil and get the impression. I hope Your Honour did not pass it for currenny for Your Honour then would have been open to a forgery charge.

But I have always wondered are people actually buried because the floor is only a foot or two 6476

June (,, 1Cl75 Tape 2176 (Afternoon) PK - 2 deep. You can go underneath the floor of Westminster Abbey down into the crvpt and you pay your - it used to be six pence but they have now gone decimal in England since I was there, and I supnose it is fifty new pence or fifty pence or whatever they call it. Rut, you know, do they actually bury people there or what? Does the honourable gentleman know? I do not know. I always wondered.

But any way, maybe we should have a power - I s upT'o ~e, Your Honour, So anyway, maybe we should have the power I suppose, Your Honour, this is a little digression from the rules and re!!ulations. I would like to come back - where is the Minister of Justice gone? That man needs a seat belt, Mr. Chairman. He needs v.Jue. TTere he is piloting a piece of legislation through Committee stage, the place where there are detailed regulation, detailed discussion. There are only two, four, six, seven - I think we should have a ouorum count, Sir, while we find the Minister of Justice and ask him to return. I am serious.

I mean it is his legislation, '!r. r.hairman. Could we have a quorum call please, there are not fo~rtePn in the Chamber at present. ' fR. ~ORF.RTS: It is three minutes. t'R. NEARY: The time is up, Sir. Adjourn the House. H!l. CT1.A1'0!AN: We have a quorum. ''R. IH'RERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am - MR. MURPHY: Here comes the kindergarten. NR. ROBERTS: - if the honourable gentleman 6417 . ,. ~ t": ... . '' ~ .:. . ~·

June 6, 1975 Tape 2177 (afternoon) opposite - no, Sir, I took a pledge not to engage in provocative debate even with the honourable gentleman - MR. MURPHY: I am glad you took a pledge for something. MR. ROBERTS: - even with the honourable gentleman from St. John's Center. If he wants to play his gutter politics,as always. he w111 play it alone. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, as I was saying - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN (STAGG): Order, please, gentlemen! I would not want this to get out of hand. So, I suggest to Ill-1 honourable gentlemen that they are dealing with

section 10 which is fairly broad. We can have very broad debate on it. However, J do not think it is broad enough to cover insulting remarks between honoura~le members. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the minist:er now that .he is back with us,and I am glad to see him here, could let us know - this is another contentious point - could let us know whether there is any provision in the regulatory po~'er,or for that matter in the act - because I woil.d perfer the minister to deal with it now. If not, I will come hack to it on the title and the general clauses. There are a couple here yet..

For the association, perhaps the gentleman from Harhour Grace might know the answer because I would assUllle he is familar with the act and as he has told us he has been involved in helping to prepare it, you know, have it drawn up and brought forward - whether there is any provision which would allow this board or the association, but I mn particularly concerned with the board because the association of funeral directors is still a private body.

I do not know whether it is incorporated or not but you know, it has not got any existence under this legislation or any other that I am aware of except possibly the Companies Act,if it is under that Act, but whether this board can set the fees which, not which the members pay to have their license. They have that power, Sir. That is quite clearly spelled out in this

section we are DOIi debating. I ._an, that is legitimate enough, twenty-five, fifty dollars a year ·to pay the board's printing costs and the board's other costs whatever they may 6478

June I;, 1Q75 Tape 2177 (afternoon) IB-2 bf'!, but whether they have the power to set fees and if so what power. I think this is a - the minister is looking throur;li the set as am I, but the difference is I am not sponsoring the act. I can find no power in the act but we are a little wary of legislation which the administration bring in. I ha~ a comment today given to me by a gentleman who referred to the Wildlife Act as bring sort of a mini-War ~e89ures Act, _you know, so we are very tender. We are going to •crutinizP very carefully st this committee stage.

Is there any power 1 or if not, is there any thought that we will end up with a situation whereby people, funeral directors,cannot offer their services except at certain minimum levels.

I ask that because there are disciplinary powers, you know, and I would not want the situation where a ftmeral director set up and if the going rate for a funeral was, say, $100, he was able to,by being an efficient operator and perhaps not taking quite the same profit margin, he would be able to offer his services st say $80, I would not want to see the qituation where either that was prohihited or alternately was not prohibited but he ended up being disciplined by the hoard. This is always a danger, Sir, with these closed shop arrangements that this legislature has created and other legislatures have created.

I sometimes thing we should have a generic ~ct to make these things clear because there must be twenty of these statutes on the books of Newfoundland now, Sir. My own profession, Your Honour's profession of the bar is the ultimate example of closed shops, union shop, closed shop, so forth and so on. It is a dangerous power and I think more and more people are coming to feel that these pm-1Prs should be exercised with great discretion or great caution. Perhaps the minister could address himself to that point if he would, <:fr. ~- HICKMAN: Ht".

Chairman, there is nothing in r-his act which gives the Association or members or funeral directors tl'e right to set minimum scale fees. Indeed I believe there is a body of I.aw developing now on the interpt"etation of the Combines Act and also ;1 bill that is either he fore,, tpe _.!!ouse of Commons or - 6479

June 6, 1975 Tape 2177 (afternoon} KR. ROBERIS : The House of Commons. MR. HICKMAN: I forget the number of it - that in order for professional societies to avoid any penalties under that act, they must provide by legislation - rn-3 6480

.Tune 6, 1975. Tape 2178 RH - 1 the Province can confer upon a professional society the right to set minimum scale fees. That is within the competence of the provincial legislature. Unless the provincial legislature does that and they can prove that a group have acted as a combine to set fees, my Wlderstandinp; is that this will constitute defense. Most surely there is nothing in this act at all to give them that power. That is right, keep her going by all means. MR. NEARY: .Mr. Chairman, the minister did not indicate, Sir, any­ where,! do not think,in his answers who would comprise the Board.

How would the Board be selected? On what basis would the - MR. HICKMAN: - - - is a matter of principle - MR. NEARY: No, Sir, no, I am asking the - The Board is referred to all the way down here in

section {10), {11), {12), {17), the Board. Will ~the Board - Is the minister introducing this bill now just to find jobs for defeated Tory candidates after the next election? MR. HICKMAN: Do not be so silly! MR. NEARY: Will they qualify to be memben of the Board? MR. HICKMAN: Do not be so - MR. NEARY: The same as Mr. Peddle became the ombudsman? Will the minister tell us if there will be any - MR. HICKMAN: This is out of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Tory hacks or - MR. HICKMAN: I refer you back to clause (3). MR. NEARY: Clause {10) we are dealing with now. MR. HICKMAN: We are not.

Clause (3) sets forth the constitution of the Board. MR. NEARY: Clause (10) says the Board may subject - the Board, I want to know who the Board will be. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: - Defeated P.C. candidates - MR. NEARY: Will the Board be political party hacks, flunkies? Will the Board be defeated Tory candidates? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! I suspect the honourable gentleman has made his point. However, the point of order 6481

Juue 6, 1975. Tape 2178 has been raised by the Minister of Justice and I feel that he is correct. The Board, the definition of it has been dealt with on second reading and also the claW1e dealing with it in particular has already passed. So, the honourable gentleman is out of order at this point. Ml.. NEARY: Well, I must apologize to the ChaiT, Your Honour. I RH - 2 was not in the Bouse. I was outside of the House on second reading of this bill and I apologize to the Chair. I was in Harbour Grace last night when this bill passed through second reading. MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: Harbour Grace. MR. YOUNG: MR.

NEARY: Arranging the honourable gentleman opposite's demise. I was arranging the demise of the honourable Member for But, Sir, - S0111e choice! And I accept Your Honour's ruling. Perhaps one of my colleaguea would enlighten me as to just how the Board will be picked. But, Sir, - MR. ROBERTS : Wall, after the next election, this side will be picking the Board anyway. MR. IIIEAB.Y: Bo, well, maybe not. But, Sir, I am interested in another matter, Sir. MR. EVARS: Shot down again! MR. CIIAIRMAR: Order, pleue!

MR. l!IIAllY1 Uoless there are no applicants, uuless there are no applicants for exaaiuat:tons, we are told in the act, that the Board shall bold at least one e. .... smfoat-ion in each year. I wonder if the minister would indicate to ua whether the Board intends to travel around the Province? Will the examination of embalmers and funeral directors just merely be confined to St. John's or will the Board be authorized to travel outside of - I know what Your Honour - Your Honour is going to say it is aection

(11) I am dealing with. Well, it is also covered uuder section (10) I think parscribing the procedure of the Board. MR. ROBERTS: It is quite in order, Your Honour. 6482

June 6, 1975. Tape 2178 RH - 3 MR, NEARY: - perscribing the procedure of the Board, perscribing the procedure of the Board or such committee of the Board as may be constituted for the purpose of a hearing of complaints and so forth. So, I will deal with complaints. MR. ROBERTS:

Section _(lO) deals with the place of meetings, MR, NEARY: Yes, I know. But the law clerk seems to think that I am on the wrong, on the wrong - MR. ROBERTS: The law clerk - (Inaudible) - as the honourable gentleman from Bell Island weli knows is accessible. MR, NEARY: That ia right. Well, I do know a little bit about parliamentary procedure and I think I am perfectly within my rights and Your Honour, I think, would probably agree. But if there are complaints, if there is a complaint, for instance, from Corner Brook - MR. HICKMAN: This is an absolute abuse of the rights of the House. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, to a point of order, Sir. The honourable the Minister of Justice just said that this is an absolute abuse of the rights of the Rouse. Now, Sir, that is contemptuous of Your Honour because Your Honour is persiding impartially and efficiently and effectively. If there was any abuse to the privileges of tht• Rouse, Sir, Your Honour would be the very first to, as I can attest with some vim and vigor,to enforce them. I think the Minister of Justice - we on this side clearly heard it, Sir. Your Ronour may well say t!:4t Your Honour did not hear it - but we clearly heard the Minister of Justice Sir.

Now, if he does not understand the act, Sir, then he should welcome the questions, If he does understand it, then he should answer the questions. But in either event, Mr. Chairman, if there is anybody out of order Your Honour is the first to do the right and proper thing. Surely, Sir, the honourable gentleman opposite should be directly to withdraw those remarks and refrain from making them again. We are not particularly concerned whether in his opinion, Sir, this is an expeditious use of time or not. We are concerned, Sir, with the rules of the Rouse with answering to our constituents. 6483

June 6, 1975 Tape no. 2179 Page 1 - 111.w Mr. Chainaan (Mr. Stagg): Order, please: While I thank honourable gentlemen for their guidance and direction.in carrying out the duties of the Chair• I think it all arose as a result of ay appearing to challenge the member for Bell Island in his remarks which appear to be directed mo1:e towards

Section 11 rather than

Section 10 vi.th which ve are dealing. Re then hastened to attempt to make hia remarks relevant, and I was satisfied that he, at least, vas making a good attempt. Ttl2 raaarks of the Minister of Justice may have been intemperate. However, I • not prepared to chastise h1J& other than to say that. And basically at this point it would be a disagreeaent between honourable members and probably the Chair will have to be exceedingly vigilant so that proceedinga do not deteriorate. MR. REARY: Hr.

Cbainaan, I vant to go back to 10 (1) (a), Sir, respecting the holding of aeetings including the place, t:lae, notice aad order of business to be conducted at such •eetings. Nov• Sir• th1a sdaiDiatration, vhen they were campaigning in tvo provincial elections in 1971 and again in 1972 said, made a atateaent, a solemn proaise to the people of this Province that they intended to bring gOYe~t to the people, to bring governaent to the people. MR. BICDIAII: Sir, on a point of order. This Bouse, I am sure, bas beell patient. Your Honour hu been very, very patient.

If to the fev · brave souls vbo still raain in the galleries, if this is not - MR. 'NEAB.Y: There is no quorua in the House, Kr. Cha:Lnaan. _!Ill. BICKKAR: - if this is not an apparent attempt - MR. REARY: Could ve have a quonm call, Kr. Chairman. D. CIIAllHAN (Hr. Stagg) : Ring the bells. We have a quorum. MR. HEAB.Y: Hr. Chaiman - MR. CBAIBIWI (Mr. Stagg): Order, please: The :rulea are silent 011 the ~ents of members duting these quo:rua cslls I R01Jever, I believe ve should not carry on conversations 6484

June 6, 1975 Tape no. 2175 Page ! - aw with people other than those who are certainly within the confines of the Assembly itself. I ask honourable members if they might keep that in mind. MR. NEARY: Kr. Chairman - JIR. CHAIRMAN (Kr. Stagg): The Hon. Minister of Justice was speaking on a point of order. MR. HICKMAN: In committee, we are now getting into a debate on the principle of the bill which cannot be permitted in COD111ittee and is not permitted in conmittee,and secondly the Hon. Member for Bell Island is being irrelevant. It is hard, Mr.

Chairman, it is hard to even believe that we are discussing the bill that is presently before the House. And if ever I have seen an attempt to slow down the business of this House! The Hon. Leader of the Opposition said earlier that this was not a very important bill. He was very critical of the administration by extension for btinging it in. Now we suddenly find a deliberate attempt to take up the whole session of this afternoon's sitting of the House on a bill that went through that was debated fairly and extensively last time.

Why was there a sensible debate - I pose the question: Why was there a sensible debate last night? 6485 .. . .

.·- June 6, 1975 Tape No. 2180 KR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order. MR. CBAI~N: Order, please! MR. h"EARY: Could I speak to that point of order? NM - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: I have all the debate I need on this point of order and I suggest to the Minister of Justice in this case and to other honourable members that rising on a point of order is not an opportunity to make a lon~ speech and a person should - MR. HICKMAN: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: An honourable member should direct himself incisively and concisely to the point and then reswned his place.

Now the point of order raised by the honourable minister is quite correct. MR. NEARY: The length of time it takes me to - MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Bell Island, at least while I act by the Chair, will not be permitted an irrelevant

preamble to a relevant point 'Which is what he was doing. The intimation is that the point he was -king was relevant. Well his points leading up to his relevant point were irrelevant. So the honourable member may proceed b~t with relevant -tters. MR. NEARY: I am not quite sure whether I understand Your Honour's ruling or not but I will try, Sir, to be as relevant as I can. Regulations 10 (1) (

a) respecting the holding of meetings includi~ the place, ti.e 1 notice and order of business to be conducted at such meetings. Now, Sir, so far we have seen no evidence whatsoever of a promise that was made a couple of years ago of bringing government to the people and I sincerely hope, Mr. Chairman, that this will be the first indication by the administration, Sir, that they now intend - HR. BIClCHAN: Mr.

Chairman, on a point of order, Your Honour has just ruled that the honourable gentleman from Bell Island is totally irrelevant, and to get up now and talk about this participatory democracy or whatever it is the honourable gentl-n is talking about and try and relate this to clause 10 of the Embalmers and Fmteral Directors Bill and their power to make regulations, nothing could be W10re irrelevant. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. 6486

June 6, 1975 Tape No. 2180 NH - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please: MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down. Sit down. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The honourable member has made the same point he made before and it has to be irrelevant. I have already ruled that it was irrelevant, now the honourable m"""ber challenged my ruling which would bring in the Speaker and - MR. NF.ARY: I challenged your right to give a ruling before ve could speak on a point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. please!

This afternoon began on a pleasant note and I am still in a rather pleasant mood and it is going to be rather difficult for honourable members to change that. However, tlley certainly seem to be trying to do so snd the honourable member being the experienced parliamentarian that he is, I think that is well a~ledged, knows that the point he is making with regard to 10 (1) (a).does not deal with matters that 10 (1) (

a) is designed to cover. So if the honourable member is irrelevant I may have to envoke

section 45 of the Standing Orders. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, under

section 10. - and I accept Your Honour's ruling, I intend to ask some questions within the narrow outline just given to me by Your Honour- the board may, . subject to the approval of ):he minister. make regulations and consistent with this act or with the Department of Health Act · (1) (

a) respecting the holding of meetings, including the place, time, notice and order of business to be conducted at these meetings. I. sincerely hope, Mr. Chairman, that the minister in his wisdom, Sir, will not merely restrict meetings to - MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, so as we will not get bogged down in Committee, on that point of order again, the honourable gentleman is not askin~ a question, the honourable gentleman is getting into a debate on the principle of the bill which is not permitted in Committee. It is as simple as that.

And I take issue with Your Honour's comment a few minutes ago that the honourable gentleman from Bell Island is a reco~ized parliamentarian. That is not correct. 6487

June 6, 1975 Tape 21~1 (afternoon) rn-1 obviously he ,foes not know the fundamental rule of Committee ~- NEARY: Mr. Chairman, under that point of orrler, Sir, T wouJd submit or suggest to Your Honour the hi:> now envoke ruJe numher t,5 11s Yonr Honour suggested that he would there a few moments ago. MR. HICl{!,l'AN: Rule 45? What rule is 45? ~- CHAIRMAN (STAGG): Orcler, please: Well, the rule which I was referring to actually I was referring to from memory and my memory was faulty. It ie

section 51 (

b) which deals w:l.th persistence in irrelevance and if that - if honourable members wish to persist in irrelevance, of course, Twill involve

section 51 (b).

Section 45 to which I referred I think may have been - MR. NEARY: Your Honour was wishing he was out of the Chair. ~- CHAIRMAN (STAGG): The wish may have heen father of the thought there. That is a motion that the Chairman leave the C:hair. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am trying to get the minister to rive me some information concerning meetings. MR. HICKMAN: All right. Then sit down and I will give it to you. MR. NEARY: Well, the last ten minutes I have been trving the minister has been up ten times on points of order. S<»m HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) • MR. NEARY: With respect, Mr.

Chairman, to the holding of meetings. Will meetings be restricted to St. John's or urban centers along the Trans-Canada Highway or will meetings be helcl all over the Province? MR. HIOCMAN: I have the question. MR. NEARY: Will they be held in Lal,rador City~ Will they be held in Labrador South? MR. HICKMAN: They will be held - AN HONOURABLE NE'1BER: Inaudihle. MR. NEARY: Will they be held over on Rell Island? Wi.11 they be held up in Harbour ~ain? What is the policy? Where will the meetings be held? HR. DOODY: Patching, matching ancl dispatching. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR.

DOODY: Patching, matching and dispatching. MR.. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this is a fair question. Will the meetings be held in a church hall? Will they be held in the courthouse? \-Ji 11 they 6488

June 6, 1Q75 Tape 2181 (afternoon) IB-2 he held in a funeral director's parlor? AN llONOTTRABT.E 1-fE?-'BER: No, in the cemetery. Thank you, Sir. ~"R. NEARY: ~«:!. HICKMAN: This, ~r. Chairman, is the worse evidence of filibustering and wasting of the taJq>ayers money since I came into this House MR. NEARY: ~r. Chairman, I want to remind Your Honour that we are told, Sir, that the House will adjourn today until next Thursday. !-111.

HICKMAN: Right,becauee the Rouse Leader, Your House Leader and J agreed that there are certain pieces of legislation that could be easily, passionately, effectively, intelligently, debated and passed this afternoon. lie and I underestinated the total lack of intelligence - -'MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this is a very important piece of legislati01l - MR. RICl<MAN: - of the honourahle Member for Pell Island. MR. NEARY: A very iillPortant piece of legislation. MF. l!ICKJIIAN: It certainly is. "fl!. NF.ARY: And I am prepared, Sir, to carry on the business of this House without interruption.

But, the government sees fit to adjourn the House today until next Thursday. MR. HICKMAN: Right. l"R. NEARY: Now, that is the crowd are talking about priorities and getting on with th~ business of this Province. The minister perhaps can tell us where and when these meetings will be held. Will they be held in courthouses, public halls, recreation cPnters? MR. HICKMAN: Yes. MR. NF.ARY: They will? MR. HICKMAN: Yes. The ones that yon are going to attend will not he held in any of these places. None! MR. NEARY: Will they only be held prior to a provincial election? AN HONOURAl'L'f. 'MEl'RF'P: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, this is pretty serious business we are talking ah out here. Now, would the m:l.nister give me a couple of answers• Perhaps 6489 • !'.- : I - ,:', I

June 6, 1975 Tape 2181 (afternoon) TR- 3 if I get the answers I am looking for, we can go on to sect:fon (h}. MR, HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, let me try to give the answers. NU!Dher one, any half-wit, any half-wit would kn·ow that a piece of' legislation like this one that silnply confers up.on the board the· power to make regulations, that there is nobody. bat the boa.rd itself when it is duly constituted 1o10u.ld ha-ve the slightest indication or in.tention as to where - MR. DOODY: Not every half-wit. MR, RICKMAN: I said every balf-wit, · MR, DOODY: balf-vit.

MR. llICKMAN: Yes, but it is not every half-wit, It is one No, no. Even a half.....,it, you know, i s an improv ement on no wit at all - would know that a board does not have that power. In the 111eant-.ime, Mr. Chairman, I move that the COllllllittee rise report prognss - and I say that w:ith tongue in cheek - 11nd ask leave to sit again. On motion that the Comn:U:tee rise, report progress and ask leave ·co sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the ChaiT, 6490

June 6, 1975 Tape 2182 (afternoon) MR._C!!_AIRMAN: Hr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them refe=ed and have directed me to report having passed Bill No. 50 without amendment, and have made some progress on Bill No. 52, and ask leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: -- --·- The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole reports that they have considered the matters to them referred and report having passed Bill No. 50 without amendment, and Bill No. 52 with some progress, and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted . MR._Jl_!.CKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I move that when this House adjourns this afternoon it adjourn until Thursday at 3:00 of the clock. MR. NEARY: Boo! Why not carry on with the business of the House? Let us talk about unemployment ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! HR. SIMMONS: They are avoiding Private Members' Day. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the House at its rising do adjourn until tomorrow, Thursday at 3:00 of the clock. Those in favour "Aye", those against ''Nay", carried. MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order. That is not a debatable motion. Is it an amendable motion?

I think there are precedents that that motion has been amended, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: No. MR. ROBERTS: Well, okay. MR. SPEAKER: The motion is carried. MR. HICKMAN: Now let us go back so that the public can see just how interesting these gentlemen are. Ve will ~o back to Committee of the Whole again. The Committee of the Whole. On motion that the House resolve itself into Conmittee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker, left the Chair, COMMITTEE OF TRE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill No. 52. A bill,

An Act Respecting The Provision Of Funeral Services." MR. NEARY: -- ----- Welcome back, Sir, I am very concerned about

Section (

g) of Regulation No. 10 "limiting the granting of licences to residents of the Province." We have se'"" •his happen in the case of 6491 .. ~- PK - 1

June 6, 197S Tape 2182 (Afternoon) the dentists, Sir, and the doctors. I do not know about lawyers, yes, lawyers too. When - HR. HI<XMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wish to rise on a point of order. The honourable aentleman is gettiq in - this is really debating the principle of the bill, and you cannot debate the principle of a bill in Comrlttee. That is such a fundamental rule that has been invoked - we have not invoked it on this side of the House like it used to be. MR. ROWE: The granting of licences. MR. HI<XMAN: Ro, Mr. Chairman, the time to debate that is when you are debating the principle of the bill. And, Hr.

Chliinaan, I ask Your Honour's indulgence and ruling that - Nil. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order , The Minister of Justice, Sir, who raised the point of order may be aggravated, irritated, upset, bored, browned off, may feel that the should be on the Bench and not in the House, but, Sir, that vas not a legitimate point of order. I am dealing PK - 6492

June 6, 1975. Tape 2183 RR - 1 with a specific section, Sir, of this act. That is the whole purpose of Comndttee of the Whole, to deal with the act item by item. I am not debating the principle of the bill, Your Honour. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are. MR. NEARY: I am dealing with limiting the gTdtting of licenses to residents of this Province. I am dealing with a specific

section of the act, Sir, not the general principle of the bill . I will sulmait I am in order -, Sir. This has been the tradition of this honourable House down through the years. MR.HICKMAN: No, completely oppo•ite. Completely opposite. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, it has. The Minister of Justice knows that. If he does not like the heat he can get out of the kitchen. Resign, go away. MR. HICKMAN: There is no heat. I lcnow what - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am speaking to the point of order, Sir. MR. RICKMAN : Have you not finished yet? MR- NEARY: No, I am not. MR. HICKMAN: Oh, good!

But why will one of your honourable colleagues not help you - - MR. NEARY: Sit down. Sit down while I am speaking to the point of order. MR.HICKMAN: - and say something in five words that takes you an hour. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, has the Minister of Justice taken leave of his senses, Sir! MR. HICKMAN: I am - MR. NEARY: Maybe he should call in reinforcements. If he is unable to lead the government in this House, Sir, let him turn his responsibility over to the Minister of Mines and Energy or to the Minister of Education. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

The honourable member may direct himself to the point of order. However, his other comments are irrelevant. It may be that I am trrong, not inconceivable, highly 6493

. ·, ·: J ... ' , ' ~ . .: .... ,'l -.. .. .. ,, ' a ., ,, ~. ,~· June 6, 1975. Tape 2183 RH - 2 unlikely maybe, perhaps, in my own opinion, at least. However, I believe that the honourable member is relevant. If we are dealing with

section (lO)g which deals with the limiting of granting of licenses to residents of the Province and his discussion is pertaining to that, I see no reason why we cannot hear him. I have heard the reverse argument at times when we are speaking to the p-,;inciple of the bill that member should not direct themselves to specifics,and specifics that should be more elaborataly dealt with in committee. So, if ve accept both arguments the honourable members would not be able to speak with anything. So, I will hear the honourable member. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is a matter of life and -~eath, Sir, a far as I am concerned, se~tion {g). But what I 811 asking the Miniater of Justice to clarify, Sir, is why it was necessary to put clause (

g) into this act limiting the granting of licenaea to residents of the Province and what is done in other Province  of Canada? Is this clause in keeping vith what we see in similar legislation in other Provinces of Canada, Sir? Why is it there? Will it be considered as an invasion of peoples' human rights? What will Doctor Bhattacharya, whatever his name is, what will he think of itT Does this restrict the free movement of qualified people in Canada? We are a Province of Canada, Sir. There are no boundaries, no border , no :lJDigration.

Cannot people who are qualified IIOVe back and forth from one Province to another? The Membel' for Barbour Grace took his training over ta Ralifsx and be can practice in Halifsx but be tells us he can also practice in Newfoundland. Well, why is that so? Why ia his license valid here when he did his training in Halifax? la he the exception to the rule? AR HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. Nil. BEAU: Yea, Sir, you do have to answer all of that because these are legitiaate questions. AR BOROORAJILE MEHBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? AR HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 6494

June 6, 1975. Tape 2183 RH - 3 MR. NEARY: So, Sir, what I want to know, Mr. Chairman, what I want to know is why this clause was put into the act. Ia it going to be considered as a breach of Mr. Diefenbaker's constitution, his bill of human rights, Canadian Bill of Human Rights. Can, for instance, a person in Ontario who wants to come into Newfoundland to practice, can he under the Canadian Bill of Human Rights come into this Province and bury people if he is qualified and he has a license and he ia registered in Ontario? Mr.

Chairman, the reason I am making this point, Sir, is because Provinces are getting away from this type of thing more and more. If my friend, the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations was here he could tell you. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is here. MR. NEARY: He is here. Well, he can tell you, Sir, that a n'llllber of meetings have been held with Ministers of Manpower and Ministers of Labour right across Canada to try to get uniform standards right across Canada so that electricians, so that their certificates can be recognized out in B.C.

If you have a certificate in B.C. it will be recognized in Newfoundland. But here we are going right back to the old system again. Should we not be getting away from this? Will the Minister of Justice clarify this matter and give me some answers. MR. HICKMAN: The clarification is very simple, Mr. Chairman. Number one, maybe we are proud. I realize and I am proud to be on the oppoaite side from the honourable gentleman from Bell Island. For some strange reason we believe we have an obligation wherever possible to protect Newfoundlanders, to provide jobs for Newfoundlanders. 6495

June 6, 1975 Tape 21R4 (afternoon) Ill-I I am delighted that the - and I would ask the press to note that an honourable gentleman from whatever side of th