March 16, 2005 Alberta Hansard 243 Legislative Assembly of A lberta Title: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 1:30 p.m. Date: 05/03/16 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Let us pray. Give to each member of this Legislature a strong and abiding sense of the great responsibilit y laid upon us. Give us a deep and thorough understanding of the needs of the people we serve. Amen. Please be seated. head: Intro duction of G uests The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. Mr. VanderBurg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On your behalf I’d like to introduce to you and through you 17 grade 6 students from Neerlandia public Christian school, which is located in the Barrhead- Morinville-Westlock constituency. Th ey are accomp anied this afternoon by teacher Mr. Jim Bosma, parents Mr. Eugene De Groot, Mrs. Carol Elgersma, Mr. Kevin Gelderman, Mrs. Karin Siegle, Mr. Ken Wood, and Mrs . Anita Veldhuise n. T hey are seated in the gallery this afternoon. I’d ask them to please rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Leduc-Beaumont-Devon. Mr. Rogers: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly 46 students from New Sarepta elementary school accompanied by their t eachers, M rs. Lynn e C halmers an d M iss Tessa H ornbeck, assistant Mrs. Horv ey, an d p arents Mrs. Li nda H arke, S herry Metrunec, Mrs. Koziol, Mrs. Dykstra , Mrs. De Pew, M rs. Sloan, Mrs. McKinney, and Mrs. Ogonoski. They are seated in the public gallery, and I would ask that they rise and re ceive the warm and traditional welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Cypress-Medicine Hat. Mr. Mitzel: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my honour and pleasure to introduce to you and through you to the hon . members of this Assembly a gentleman seated in the members’ gallery who has been a friend of mine for many years. He’s been a councillor for the MD of Taber for the last 10 yea rs. For s even years he’s been on the Alberta board of FCSS, and he’s recently been elected as president of the AAMD and C. This man has been a good friend of mine and worked many years in municipal politics with me. I’d like you to please ask Don Johnson to rise and receive the warm and traditional welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Glenora. Dr. B. Miller: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . It is an honour for me to introduce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly 16 students from NorQuest College, loca ted in t he Edmonton- Glenora constituency. They are in an English as a second language program. Their teacher is Debbie Stephen. Just to give you an idea of th eir ba ckgrounds, t hey a re from A fghanistan, Iran, Ch ina, Taiwan, Rwanda, P alestine, R omania, T urkey, U kraine, I srael, Russia, and Pakistan. I invite them to stand and recei ve the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly.

The Speaker: The hon. leader of the ND opposition. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It ’s my sincere pleasure to introduce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly the new chief of staff for the NDP opposition, Debbie Clark. S ome of y ou m ay kn ow D ebbie through h er work as executive administrator and registrar of the Alberta Assess ors’ Association. Joining Debbie today are her parents, Mike and Lorette Spilchen, long-ti me New D emocrat supporters and formerly of Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview, where they owned a business. They now reside in Canora, Saska tchewan.

I would ask them to please rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: Are there others at this time? A little later there will be some additional ones. Vignettes from Alberta’s History The Speaker: Our historic vignette of the day, hon. members. On March 16, 1967, the portrait of Roberta Catherine MacAdams Price was p resented to th e A lberta L egislature to ho nour he r a chieve- ments. She was one of the two first women elected to the Alberta Legislative Assembly on June 7, 1917, and she was the first woman to introduce a piec e of l egislation in what was then known as the British Empire.

She was elected as Roberta Mac Adams as a nonpartisan MLA to represent the province at large in the 1917 election. head: Oral Quest ion Peri od The Speaker: First Official Opposition main q uestion. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Ambulance Services Dr. Taft: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. Albertans expect good management from their government, but they are struggling to find it. Not only did this government mismanage the transfer of ambulance services, now they’ve made a mess of their makeshift $55 million solution.

Seventy-seven of 149 Alberta municipalities will be facing a budget shortfall because of the failed ambulance transfer. To the Minister of Municipal Affairs: what is this government going to do to help these 77 municipalities climb out of the financial hole this govern- ment’s ambulance transfer has dug for them? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Renner: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. This government takes very seriously the role and responsibilities associated with munici- palities and see ourselves clearl y as partners with municipalities.

With r espect to the issue of ambulances Municipal Affairs and myself as the minister of that department are working very closely with the minister of health to ensure that issues related to municipali- ties are dealt with as fairly and equitably as they possibly can be. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you. Well, then, to the Minister of He alth and Wellness: given that ambulance services cost more to deliver in rural areas, why did the government put rural Alberta at a disadvantage by providing assistance on a per capita basis? Ms Ev ans: M r.

Speaker, we spent a v ery i ntense several d ays examining options, looking at per capita funding, looking at actual costs submitted to regional health authorities from the municipali-

Alberta Hansard March 16, 2005244 ties, evaluating the way to manage it most effectively. Some of the municipalities, rural and medium- and small-sized municipalities, in fact did not deliver ambulance services. They contracted it from somebody else. T o give carte blanche funding without carefully having an opportunity to examine the impacts may have been unfair, but the best way to do it was on a per capita basis and to look at the opportunity this year with the technical committee, to examine each and every case and see whether we could improve upon it for the next year. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr.

T aft: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. So, t hen, to the Minister of Restructuring and Government Efficiency: given that the transfer of ambulance services is such a glaring example of failed restructuring and government inefficiency, what role will this minister’s depart- ment play in improving the efficiency and structure of ambulance services? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Ouellette: Thank y ou, Mr . Speaker. I think that the health minister had a very tough decision to make and did a very good job on the decision she did make. I want t o u nderstand f rom s ome questions t hat w ere a sked yesterday.

A t the time when the ambulance review was done in 2002, total ambulance cost in the province of Alberta was around $115 million. Of that, the municipal portion was roughly $40 million. Forty million from the province, $22 million from patients that took rides in ambulances, and about another $9 million to $10 million that came from the federal government, which was mostly aboriginal. That’s the $115 million, and that was the total cost at the time. But remember that $40 million of that was all that municipali- ties paid. They’ve never been paid any different for that, and now we’re giving them $55 million.

The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. 1:40 Restructuring and Government Efficiency Dr. Taft: Thank y ou, Mr. Speaker. According to its website the Ministry of Restructuring and Government Efficiency is focused on “how government and its reporting entit ies can better provide services to Albertans.” This minister so far has refused to look into the m ess s urrounding t he budget p rocess, refused t o l ook i nto taxpayer dollars wasted on flights, and now apparently is refusing to look into t he transfe r of ambulance services.

So to that same minister: other than SuperNet what files is his department working on, and what is their cost? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Ouellette: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want you to know that SuperNet i s g oing t o b e a huge advantage to A lbertans. I t is especially going to be an advantage to rural Alberta, and i t goes along with the rural initiatives that this government has. At t his point in time it’s so important to ge t the SuperNet done that I am focusing most of my energies and time on the SuperNet. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you.

To the same minister: what was the cost of establishing the Depart ment of Restructuring and Government Efficiency? Mr. Ouellette: Mr. Speaker, that, I think, is a budget item, but I will say this. I don’t know if the members across the floor understand that this ministry wasn’t a brand spanking new ministry. It’s new in name and it’s new in form, but there w as some restructuring done before t he ministry sta rted. W e h ave a l arge p ortion, Alberta Corporate Service Centre, that’s in this ministry, that we’re working on diligently to find efficiencies in.

The corporate chief information officer was also moved over, and that was about 1,350 employees. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Premier: why won’t the Premier himself take responsibility for governm ent structure and efficiency, cut the taxpayers’ losses by transferring SuperNet back to Innovation and Science, and simply eliminate the Department of Restructuring and Government Efficiency? Why won’t he do that? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, the department of restructuring is moving along very well indeed.

I’m pleased with the progress and anxiously await the minister’s report. Perhaps he can update us, bring us up to date on what the department is all about. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Health Resource Centre Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In October the Calgary health region contracted with the Health Resource Centre to do hip and knee surg eries.

Despite the fact the se procedures would cost more than they would in the public system, the Premier called this contracting out “a health care success story.” Bu t it’s now been revealed that not only do these procedures cost more, but the wait- lists are longer at the Health Resource Centre. My questions are to the Minister of Health and Wellness. Given that wait times for hip surgery are longer at the Health Resource Centre than in any other facility in Calgary, does the minister consider this contract a health care success story? Ms Evans: Mr.

Speaker, I appla ud the Calga ry health region for making ev ery attempt to re duce the l ength of ti me p eople were waiting for surgery. While there are still issues with the wait list, those are issues that the health regi on is working t o address. We haven’t d one a complet e e valuation o f t he effectiveness of th at contract. To be critica l of a region who is attempting to move patients forward into the system to get the service they require is really not the way to approach improving the health care system. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you.

To the same minister: are the wait lists longer at the Health Resource Centre because its private clients like the WCB, who pays a premium, are being served before patients from the public system? Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, that has always been the case. Ms Blakeman: Again to the same minister: given that procedures

March 16, 2005 Alberta Hansard 245 that are done at the Health Resource Centre cost more and waiting lists are longer, will the minister do the logica l thing and increase capacity in th e p ublic s ystem an d c ancel thi s pr ivate s urgical contract? Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, that’s jumping to conclusions, and this minister isn’t prepared to jump to conclusions. We have to take a look at all of th e issues surrounding the health care sy stem. Number one, this is a very good health care system. Number two, the r egion in Ca lgary i s planning t o a dd be ds.

T he exponential growth i n Alberta is p robably u nprecedented anywhere else in Canada. Number three, the issue of levering some of these surgeries in an attempt to reduce waiti ng lists was something – if the hon. member opposite really had a case, wouldn’t we have heard about it when it happened during the election? The Speaker: The hon. leader of the ND opposition, followed by the hon. Member for Cardston-Taber-Warner. Ambulance Services (continued) Mr. Mason: Th ank you very mu ch, M r. Speaker. W ell, t hey certainly heard about it from us. Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I informed the House that the city of Red Deer is short millions in provincial ambulance funding. Today the Alberta Urban Municipalities Association is saying that the Conserva- tives’ so-called $5 5 m illion f ix an nounced la st w eek s till l eaves Calgary $4.3 million short and Lethbridge $2.7 million short. I n fact, more than half of AUMA’s member municipalities are facing shortfalls because of Tory ambulance bungling.

To the Premier: can the Premier explain why this government has so badly botched the ambulance transfer tha t mu nicipal taxpay ers will end up being saddled with at least $12 million in extra ambulance costs come the 1st of April? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the hon. member, a botch of the ambulance service changeover to make it part of health as opposed to a transportation service, which I don’t know if that’s what the opposition wants, would have been to go to the $128 million program.

Had we proceeded with the program at the costs that had escalated so dramatically, I suspect there would have been yelling and screaming and stamping and fuming and storming on the part of the opposition. Mr. Mason: Mr. Speaker, given that during the election we brought it to th e g overnment’s an d t he public’s attention tha t t hey w ere lowballing the ambulance costs, why is the Premier now perplexed that the costs are in fact so high? Mr. Klein: Perplexed? B ecause it was to be really quite simple.

The original context – and I’m sure the Official Opposition agrees – i s that ambulance services are no w an integral pa rt of he alth services, the front line, the first responders, and ambulances for the most part are travelling hospitals. The paramedics and the EMTs are highly t rained indivi duals able to administer certa in kinds of medicine an d c ertainly m ore t han pr imary f irst a id. S o i t w as decided that ambulance services should be part of the health system as opposed to an array of services offered throughout the province.

Some were municipal services, some were in conjunction with fire departments, s ome w ere vo lunteer servic es, s ome w ere pr ivate operators, and what we wanted to do was to achieve a co-ordination of services under the regional hea lth aut horities. That’s all we wanted to do. That was the first step. I don’t know where it would have taken us from there. To me, that di dn’t require a tremendous amount of rocket science. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker .

When will this government admit that its own shoddy research led to the lowballing of ambulance transfer costs, and when can municipalities expect to see a funding plan that doesn’t leave their citizens facing property tax increases to pay for the government’s mistakes? Mr. Klein: If that question is to me, Mr. Speaker, we’re doing our best to compensate municipalities. The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness has this file on her table, and I’ll ask her to respond. Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, over this next ye ar while we look at the discovery p rojects, I think more of the information will come to light.

We hope to keep progressing. But I think that what we are doing today and a very rational assessment of it will illuminate why many of the earlier reports that w ere filed with Municipal Affairs from municipalities did not account for all of the costs that were made available to the regional health authorities at the time that the transfer was intended to be complete, and that is part of the crux of the problem. So we will elucidate that over these next few months, and we’re working very diligently to get that in place. 1:50 Mr.

Speaker, m ay I remind this A ssembly that last ye ar $65 million, $55 million that we gave to municipalities and $10 million that we gave to the discovery projects, was in fact not paid to them, so there is extra compensation for ground ambulance to municipali- ties this year. The S peaker: Th e h on. M ember fo r C ardston-Taber-Warner, followed by the hon. Member for Foothills-Rocky View. Definition of Marriage Mr. Hinman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

B ack in June 2003 our Premier spoke out for Albertans, and he said: The law in Alberta is v ery clear, n otw ith standing how some people might fee l ab out i t, it ’s very cle ar. I t’s a s c lea r as cry stal. If the re is an y move to san ctify an d leg alize sam e-sex m arr iag es, we will use the no twithst andi ng cl ause. Peri od . E nd of s tory. On March 23, 2005, this government’s Marriage Amendment Act will expire. My question is to the Premier.

Regardless of what the courts and th e federal Parliament are doing, will this government show leadership by re-enacting the Alberta Marriage Ame ndment Act, renewing the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman and using the notwithstanding clause before it expires? Mr. Klein: Relative to the hon. member’s stand on the traditional definition of marriage, we agree with him entirely. I’m go ing t o h ave the hon.

Mi nister of J ustice a nd A ttorney General respond relative to the legali ties of this case, but t he hon. member knows full well that whether the notwithstanding clause stays or whether it goes, it can’t be defended, and th at’s what I’ll have the hon. minister talk to. I would like to just take a mom ent, Mr. Speak er, to talk about what we have done. Perhaps I can do that during the second supplementary. Mr. Hinman: I s t his g overnment p repared t o c learly s tate t hat

Alberta Hansard March 16, 2005246 notwithstanding any federal court or parliamentary decision it will not solemnize any marriage within Alberta other than those which are between one man and one woman? Mr. Klein: A very interesting question. I agree wit h the tone and the intent of the hon. member’s question, but relative to the legalities I’ll have the hon. minister respond. Mr. Stevens: Thank you, Mr. Premier. Mr. Speaker, last December the S upreme C ourt ru led in a M arriage A ct reference th at was brought by the federal government.

In essence, that case says this: the fed eral government, not the provincia l government, has the jurisdiction with respect to the definition of marriage. That is why at this point in time the federal government has before its Parliament

an act relative to the definition of marriage. It is also very clear that a province cannot use the notwithstanding clause rela tive to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms with respect to matters that are not within its jurisdiction. Theref ore, the province does not have the power to use the notwithstanding clause in the Charter relative to the definition of marriage. Mr. Hinman: Will thi s government stand up to Ottawa for the traditions and customs of Albertans by just saying no to changes in the definition of marriage, just as Quebec has said no to Ottawa in defence of its traditions and customs? Mr.

Klein: Quebec has sai d no to Ottawa rel ative to a number of issues over which it has constitutional authority. Mr. Speaker, again, we agree with the tone and the intent of the hon. member’s questions. Relative to the legalities he’s quite clear on the legal matters, and the Attorney General and Justice minister has explained them quite well. Mr. S peaker, we have continually d efended t he traditional definition of marriage. We believe that it’s deeply rooted in history, culture, and religion. We hav e continually fought changes to the traditional definition of marriage, now a bill before the House of Commons.

I have personally written to every MP – every MP; all 300-and-some-odd MPs – I’ve written to the Prime Minister asking him to allow a free vote, and I’ve urged all members of the House of Commons to vote no or to at least amend the legislation to include a n otwithstanding c lause. W e a re also e ncouraging al l A lberta people to contact their MPs, and I would encourage this member to talk to the Libera l caucus and have the Liberal caucus talk to the federal government. The S peaker: The hon. Member for Foothills-Rocky View, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Métis Hunting Rights Dr.

Morton: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The spring grizzly bear hunt in A lberta is based on th e s cientific m anagement of ou r b ear population, and the number of permits issued each year is st rictly limited to achieve a sustainable grizzly population. My concern is the effect that the new interim Métis harvesting agreement may have on Alberta’s grizzly conservation programs, specifically next month, when the male bears come out of their wint er hibernation. So my question is to the hon. Minister of Sustainable Resource Develop- ment.

Under the new interim harvesting agreement what restrictions are imposed on the Métis’ ability to hunt grizzly bears in Alberta? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Coutts: Thank you very mu ch, M r. Speaker. S ustainable Resource D evelopment’s ro le in im plementing this agreement is again to make sure that the ongoing theme of c onservation and monitoring and enforcement, if necessary, prevails. That is some- thing that was discussed with the Métis during the time of the agreement. Mr.

S peaker, o ne of th e most im portant th ings to no te is th at Alberta’s careful and cautious approach to the grizzly bear hunt this year alrea dy includes a modest aboriginal harvest. Like the aboriginal harvest, SRD will closely monitor any grizzly bear hunt or an y gri zzly bea r h unting that might oc cur un der th e M étis agreement, and we will share those results with the public as we always do. Dr.

Morton: To the same minister again: given the absence of any or at least very minimal restrictions on Métis hunting of grizzly, would the minister consider cancel ling the spring grizzly hunt for legally registered hunters in order to prevent Métis or anybody else from hunting or killing grizzlies this spring? Mr. Coutts: Mr. Speaker, under the federal government’s Powley decision, the Supreme Court decision, and with the interim Métis harvesting a greement th at’s in place, if the h unt w ere cl osed to anyone, the Métis would still be permitted to hunt for subsistence reasons.

As a result of that and to ensure the conservation measures that we abide by and that were put into the interim agreement, those measures and education, we will continue to work with the Métis associations a nd under the lea dership of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. Dr. Morton: Again to the same minister. I don’t know how many people hunt grizzly bears for subsistence, but last year there were six grizzly bears killed by licensed hunters in this province.

Does the government have a plan to monitor the number of bears killed by unlicensed M étis hunters th is s pring t o e nsure t hat ou r g rizzly population does remain sustainable? Mr. Coutts: Mr. Speaker, we do want grizzly bear on the land, and definitely the grizzly bear hunt is closely monitored and checked and researched every single solitary year. Th at’s why we do tha t: to make sure that the bears are kept on the land. By regulation, the hon. member is wanting to know that every single hunter, in cluding Mé tis, m ust r egister their gr izzly be ar harvest with our officials.

We have these measures in place so that we can keep those conservation concerns that we talked about earlier in check and we can take act ion on our licensing and our ultimate rollout of a grizzly bear strategy each year. So we do monitor. We do it on our best research available. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, followed by the hon. Member for Peace River. Access to Information on Enron Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is no doubt that this Progressive Conservative government and Enro n t alked and talked and talked often.

En ron Canada was a generous financial donor to the Progressive Conservative Party, and even one of their Houston official s was quoted in a government of Alberta news release that was bragging about the power purchase arrange ment auction in the year 2000. My first question is to the Premier. Given that over 5,600 pages of records of communication between Enron Canada and Alberta Energy were denied the Official Opposition’s

March 16, 2005 Alberta Hansard 247 access to informat ion request in 2002, will this government now release these documents to the public immediately? 2:00 Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, the market surveillance administrator has asked the federal Competition Bureau to investi- gate this matter. I’m sure any files that they require will be turned over to them, and once they make their findings, perhaps – I don’t know for sure – those papers will become public. I don’t know. Nor do I know the reason – but I’ll attempt to find out – why the Liberals were denied access to the files.

I can only surmise that they didn’t fit within the context of the FOIP rules and guidelines. Relative to the hon. member’s

preamble, I’ll address that in the second supplementary. Mr. MacDonald: I’ll be pleased to hear it. To the Premier: given all the damning information the American authorities have uncovered on Enron’s activities in Alberta through Project Stanley, why is this government refusing to release these records now? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, as I said before, I have no idea, but perhaps what the hon. member is requesting doesn’t fit within the guidelines of the FOIP rules and regulations. Relative to his first

preamble, Mr. Speaker, where he alleges that Enron has talked and talked and talked to the government and had these secret, behind-closed-door discussions, I don’t recall any discussions whatsoever with Enron. None. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you. Again to the Premier, Mr. Speaker: how many of these records relate to Enron’s unethical activities and price manipulation at the Power Pool of Alberta? There are 5,600 records. How many of those relate to these activities? Mr. Klein: Mr.

Speaker, if in fact the allegations being made by the hon. member are true, then that information undoubtedly has been obtained by the market surveillance administrator, and he has passed that information on to the federal Competition Bureau in order that they may conduct their investigation. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Peace River, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Mountain Pine Beetle Control Mr. Oberle: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The mountain pine beetle has had a devastating impact on the forest industry in British Columbia, already resu lting in th e l oss of m ore t han $9 bi llion in fo restry revenues and threatening 80 per cent of their pine fore sts. Recent reports indicate that the number of mountain pine beetles in Alberta has increased this year over last and that the forest pest has been found in areas where it hasn’t been found before. Can the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development tell us what he’s doing about this alarming trend in the increase of mountain pine beetles and their locations in Alberta? Mr. Coutts: Mr.

Speaker, this is a very important question because as far as our forestry industry and Sustainable Resource Develop- ment are concerned, the great est threat that we have to our pine forests is the pine beetle that is coming in from British Columbia. That’s why we’ve continued over the past three years – it’s a three- year project at this point in time – to look at surveys to see if there’s any significant increase.

We do know that there are some areas in the p rovince th at are s tarting t o e xperience so me p ine b eetle infestation, but let me be clear: there is no epidemic of mountain pine beetle at this particular point in time. We do continue to do aerial surve ys as well as on the ground surveys. What we do when we find a patch of pine beetle destroying our pine forests is: we go in there, we identify the trees, we take and log the trees, and we burn them to make sure that the p ine beetle does not infest other trees. This is a strategy . . . The Speaker: Thank you. The hon. member. Mr. Oberle: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, and thank you to the minister. Can the same minister tell us, in light of the fact that there are more beetles found in more places than ever before, if his department is co-ordinating with British Columbia to help keep beetles out of Alberta and, if so, how? Mr. Coutts: We have 2 million acres of pine forest in Alberta, and our priority definitely is to work with the British Columbia govern- ment to learn f rom their dire situation over there. W e constantly share information.

As a m atter of fact, I plan on talking to my British Columbia counterpart within the next two days when we’re in Cranbrook, British Columbia, at a joint cabinet meeting between Alberta and B .C. We know that these beet les come in, as I said, from B.C., and we’re monitoring those areas on a very, very close basis. We will continue to work together with the British Columbia government to eradicate this pesky little beetle. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Oberle: Thank y ou, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister tell us what, if any, role he’s taken in consulting and co-ordinating efforts with the forest industry? Mr.

Coutts: The industry is definitely involved because it’s their future that’s at stake here. As well, we have different government departments and the federal government being involved with this as well. We also involve municipal governments in this because it’s part of their com munities that are devastated by annual allowable cuts that are affected by pine beetles. For example, Alberta Infrastructure and Transportation conducts random checks for barked wood coming in from British Columbia at their weigh stations.

Com munity Deve lopment doesn’t allow B.C. wood to be burned in their park s, and their conservation officers continually check on that. So I’m quite proud of the fact that these and other efforts have earned the Alberta team a Premier’s award of excellence in the past year, and we will continue to work on it. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie, followed by the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills. Apprenticeship Training Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday in this Assembly the Minister of Advanced Educat ion said: “There’s no shortage of place in our advance d education institut ions for apprent iceships. The shortage is in placement.” Yet the apprenticeship and training board’s own figures show that for 2003 of the nearly 40, 000 apprentices registered i n Alberta, barel y half were attending technical training institutions. Can the minister explain why?

Alberta Hansard March 16, 2005248 Mr. Hancock: Most of those who weren’t attending institutions at the time were probably building thei r workplace hours. Part and parcel of the apprenticeship training program is that you work and you go to school. W hen you’ve built up the work hours, you’re eligible to go to school. We don’t have a compulsory aspect in the program that says that once you’ve acquired the work hours that are necessary, you have to go to school.

That depends on the students determining w hen th ey’re av ailable t o g o t o s chool a nd th eir employers determining when they can release them to go to school. It’s very much a co-operative effort with students, their employers, and the system. I can assure the hon. member that we have contracts with the postsecondary institutions that are in place, the techn ical institutes, to provide ap prenticeship programs for everybody that registers. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If it is as the minister says, then I w onder if th ere’s an y pro tection f or th e a pprentice i f a n employer continues to say to the apprentice: “I can’t release you to go to school. I can’t afford to. I need you here now.” The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Hancock: Thank y ou, Mr. Speaker. We have a very strong apprenticeship system in this province, and we have fieldworkers in the department who work with the employers and the apprentices in order to co-ordinate this. I can assure you that that has not been brought to our attention as a problem in any way, shape, or form. The Speaker: The hon. member.

Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: why is the government of Alberta pushing to allow temporary foreign workers in to work in the oil sands when we actually trained 1,700 fewer apprentices in 2003 than we did in 1982? Mr. Hancock: Well, Mr. Speaker, whether or not the hon. member is correct in his assertion, the two have no relationship to each other. The re ason w hy w e h ave th e o pportunity fo r f oreign workers to come into this province is that there is a skill shortage. There are lots of jobs. This province is operating at full steam.

Not just in the apprenticeship area but in skills right across the province there is a need for well-qualified people. There is a place for every qualified Albertan, and there’s an opportunity for Albertans who want to be qualified, but that’s still not going to be enough to fuel the opportu- nities that are available in this province. So we welcome others to come to this province to help build this province and to create a home here. The Speaker: T he hon. Member for O lds-Didsbury-Three Hills, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. 2:10 Health Regulations for Rural Community Halls Mr.

Marz: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This past week I met with several rural co mmunity as sociations th at due t o a bo undary adjustment find themselves now in the Calgary health region, and they all expressed the same conce rns. The way the y’re being classified by the health inspectors, also known in rural Alberta as the pie and perogy police, they fear that they ’re going to have to shut down their community hall s. The number of specific conc erns raised were far too numerous to mention within the guidelines of a brief

preamble, so I’ll go directly to my question to the Minister of Health and Wellness. Why are small rural community halls that put on one annual turkey supper or serve annual rodeo lunches classified the same as full-service restaurants by health inspectors? Ms Evans: Well, Mr. Speaker, for public health reasons, obviously, facilities that serve food are classified under very different catego- ries. The category a facility is placed in depends upon the frequency and the kind of food that’s served and whether or not the venue is open to the public.

Wherever food is served, public health regula- tions apply equally regardless of any other factors, including size and frequency of use, and this is to ensure that Albertans can be confident that public health is protected. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Marz: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: given that these functions are little more than a c ommunity picnic held indoors, should there not be a separate designation for these small rural community halls? Ms Eva ns: W ell, M r.

Speaker, in li ght o f t he hon. member’s concern I contacted the Calgary health region today, and the Calgary health region is looking into the matter of how frequently regions and municipalities may feel that there are some impediments to how well they can serve. A number of people have suggested that there are clear guidelines in place.

If a region is planning an event, if they’re planning some kind of community activity, they can contact the health region, and the health region will come and work with them to ensure that public safety is maintained, that the proper rules and regulations are in place, and they work with the groups to ensure that guidelines are followed. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Marz: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: given that these complaints were not nearly as prevalent in the health authority that they found the mselves in before, is there a standard level of inspection between one health region and another? Ms Evans: Mr. Speaker, in most regional health authorities the level of in spection var ies w ith th e a mount of co nfidence t he health authority has relative to the ty pe of food and the t ype of facilities, the frequency, an d so on.

While I recognize t hat und er the new regional authorities there may be variances, I encourage community groups to work with the health authority, to work with the public health inspect or to make sure that t here is in fact a safe event possible under the guidelines. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-McClung. Health Reform Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier has huffed and puffed for months about the so-called third way in health care, yet he refused to talk about it during the election, and four months after the election he’s still refusing to level with Albertans. Meanwhile, the NDP opposition has just finished province-wide public hearings on health care reform, and believe me, grassroots Albertans have lots of ideas on how to fix problems that in many cases were created by this government. My questions are to the Premier. W hy i s the Premier still refusing to consult with the Marthas and Henrys of this

March 16, 2005 Alberta Hansard 249 province to get their input on how to strengthen a nd sustain the public health care system in this province? Mr. Klein: Mr. Speaker, that will be done. This is a three-pronged approach to achieving sustainability in health care, which has now reached proportions of – what? – $9.1 billion a y ear. If the hon. member feels th at is ac ceptable, th en he can s tand u p a nd te ll Albertans that he thinks that that and an 8 per cent increase each and every year is acceptable. I’ll let him do that. I’m not about to do that. Mr.

S peaker, t he answer t o t he question i s: the fir st s tep w as actually to put more money into the health care system to eliminate all th e d eficits of th e r egional h ealth au thorities an d t o a lleviate waiting lists fo r certain common procedures, primarily bone and joint procedures, some heart procedures, some cancer proce dures, and to accommodate some capital. The second ph ase o f t he program is to ho ld an in ternational symposium to find out what works in other jurisdictions, including socialist republics where there is a mix of public and private.

The third component, of course, is a public consultation with the people of this province. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Premier again: why is the Premier and his government huddling with hand-picked interna- tional health care experts at an invitation-only symposium in Calgary in May while freezing out seve rely normal Albertans who have many worthwhile ideas for improving the health system? Mr. Kle in: M r. Speaker, I und erstand t hat 50 0 s everely nor mal Albertans have b een invite d. W e c an’t i nvite th e w orld to th is symposium.

We’re inviting representatives from around the world to share their experi ences, from jurisdictions around the globe representing countries that espouse to the free-enterprise system and representing countries that espouse to the system that they espouse to. Dr. Pannu: My second supplementary to the Premier, Mr. Speaker: with his so-called third way why is the government ripping off a slogan from the United Kingdom in order to import a health care system from the United States? Mr. Klein: Well, first of all, I don’t know to what slogan the hon. member alludes, Mr. Speaker.

If he’s talking about the third way, I didn’t know that. I just thought it was a good slogan, and if they’re using it in Britain, great . Britai n happens to be governed by the Labour Party, which is the equivalent to the NDs. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-McClung, followed by the hon. Member for Stony Plain. Enron Activities in Alberta Mr. Elsalhy: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The office of the Utilities Consumer Advocate rece ived a $1.7 million increa se in funding overtop of its last year’s $2.6 million budget.

This expensive office supposedly has the charge of defending Alberta’s consumers against price go uging, market manipulation, and pr ice-fixing b y uti lity companies. Unfortunately , it has been silent. To the Minister of Government Services: has the Utilities Consumer Advocate looked into the current case against Enron and its affiliates price gouging in Alberta? Mr. Lund: Well, Mr. Speaker, as has been answered in this House many times, there is an investigation going on by the Competiti on Bureau of the federal government, and that will get into all of the angles.

T he Minister of En ergy has on many oc casions cl early demonstrated what the provincial government’s role has been, and certainly the Co mpetition Bu reau will be c oming o ut w ith th eir report, and we’ll have a complete answer when that is done. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Elsalhy: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: why is it, then, that the Utilities Consumer Advocate’s own website posts consumer u pdates about En ron’s activities in A lberta, P roject Stanley? Is it just functioning as a propaganda machine when it’s not really investigating anything? Mr. Lund: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I haven’t seen where Enron is on the website at this time. Enron is now not an identity. Mr. El salhy: T o t he Minister of Restructuring and Government Efficiency: given that the Utilities Consumer Advocate is refusing to look into something that affects all taxpayers, which is really his main reason for existence, what’s your ministry doing to ensure that the Departme nt of Government S ervices is investigat ing the consumer rip-off? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Ouellette: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My understanding is that the utilit ies advocate has been travelling all of Albert a doing investigations, and to my understanding he’s saying that he’s posting them on the website. Thank you. Mr. Melchin: I wo uld like to say, M r. Speaker, that there is an investigation going on, and I think it’s not fair to characterize it that the appropriate authorities aren’t doing their work. That’s why you do put in bodies like the market surveillance administrator. That’s why th ere i s a Competition B ureau. T hey have been given the jurisdiction, they are taking the authority, and they’re doing their work.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for S tony Plain, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Decore. 2:20 Wabamun Provincial Park Closure Mr. Li ndsay: Thank y ou, Mr. Speaker. The Wabamun Lake provincial park is closed now for the remainder of 2005 to upgrade the water and sewer sy stems. My question is to the Minister of Community Development, responsible for parks. Is it necessary to shut the park down for the entire summer? Could the work not have been d one incrementally o ver t he winter a nd s pring o r l ater t his winter and fall? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Mar: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There is an enormous amount of work that is being done, and to be clear, some work has been conducted over the winter and the spring. That work, which is now completed, has b een t he installation o f n ew s howers a nd n ew washroom facilit ies. The next step is to install and connect the sewer and waterlines. There is a significant amount of work to do

Alberta Hansard March 16, 2005250 in this, and the reason why the park was closed was for public safety reasons. So the park will be closed and then remain closed for the balance of the year 2005. The total cost of this project is about $1.5 million. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Stony Plain. Mr. Li ndsay: Th ank you, M r. Speaker. To th e same minister: knowing how popular this camping and fishing getaway just west of Edmonton is, what are some alternatives for campers this summer? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, only the park itself is closed.

People should know that the village of Wabamun and the marina that are there will remain open, so people will still be able to use some of the amenities in the area. I should say also that once these renovations are done, I think people are going to be very, very pleased with the work that’s been done. With re spect to ot her pl aces to go , M r. Speaker , t here a re a number of other campgrounds within a 100-kilometre radius of this area.

Two of them would be Miquelon Lake and the Pembina River provincial parks, and Albertans can visit the department’s website to see other park sites and camping venues that may be available to them, perhaps an opportunity to see a part of the province that they wouldn’t ordinarily see. Th at website can b e accessed relatively easily, and y ou can check for campsites both geographically and alphabetically. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Lindsay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: are there plans to upgrade or develop a more serviced campsite at this park in the near future? Mr. Mar: Mr.

Speaker, any further improvements to this park or any others will be considered in the next fiscal year, but again this is a major investment of money into the park at Wabamun Lake. In addition to what I indicated in my previous answer, I have a list of things th at are being done. W e’re r efurbishing th e water t ower, replacing the water main valves, establishing a new potable well, constructing four new septic fields, and relocating the recreational vehicle sewage disposal station. But eve n if we move forward on other improvements for this park, I don’t anticipate it will ever need to be closed again.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Decore, followed by the hon. Member for Leduc-Beaumont-Devon. Game Farming Mr. Bonko: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This morning our Member for Calgary -Mountain View along with the Alberta Wilderness Association were calling upon this government to ban game farming in Alberta. This is because of the ongoing threat and contamination of wildlife from chronic wastin g d isease. My question to the minister of agriculture. For 12 years this Premier has been promis- ing a public inquiry into this industry. When will this happen? The Speaker: The hon.

Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. Mr. Horner: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, there has never been a case of CJD that has been linked back to CWD, or chronic wasting disease, and I think that to suggest that there’s a health risk when there’s no science to support such a suggestion is somewhat ir responsible. I t’s ir responsible to th e i ndustry. It’s irresponsible to those producers who have taken the entrepreneurial attitude to get into this business. It’s irresponsible to suggest that there’s a health risk associated with these producers’ animals.

We’re currently testing about 10,000 a year, and only three cases of CWD have ever been confirmed, and none of that has ever hit the human food chain or, for that matter, the feed chain. As with BSE, Mr. Speaker, effective surveillance is the key. As with BSE, more science is re quired, which is why this government has already announced $38 million for a new prion research centre, which will study the folding proteins that cause this disease. I might also add that there is no CWD in our wild herd as well. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Bonko: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the same minister: given that such a small area on the border is being culled, how will this government prevent cross-migration between Alberta and Saskatche- wan? Mr. Horner: Again, Mr. Speaker, the department of agriculture as well as the Department of SRD are monitoring that situation very, very closely. The cull is a prevent ative measure to ensure that we don’t have a spread of disease in our wild or domestic herd. Again, we are testing the wild animals, and chronic wasting disease has not been found in wild deer or elk in Alberta despite testing over 5,400 animals during the last seven hunting seasons.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Bonko: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: given that this industry cannot survive without government supports, will this government shut down the industry by providing compensation to all the game farmers? Mr. Horner: Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. Our intent is to encour- age this industry and build this industry.

Our intent is to continue to support t hose producers, which w e have done through p er head payments – we are still waiting for the federal government to come forward with their portion of that per head payment – which we have done through dollars to market enhancement programs, much the same as we have done with the beef industry. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, this industry has been hit hard by the border closure in the United States as well as some border closures in K orea.

Our department a s well as t he Minister of Eco nomic Development and his department are working to reopen those borders and to reopen those markets. This is a very valued industry in the province of Alberta. The Speaker: Hon. members, in 30 seconds from now I’ll call upon the first of seven membe rs to participate. In the interim might we revert to Introduction of Guests? [Unanimous consent granted] head: Intro duction of G uests (reversion) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Cardston-Taber-Warner. Mr. Hinman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure

March 16, 2005 Alberta Hansard 251 to introduce to you and through you to this Assembly my first school group to visit here since the House has been sitting. I have 28 enthusiastic students here from Taber and their teachers and a few parents. I’d like to introduce to this gallery their teachers, Mr. Pyne and Mrs. Siemens, and their parent drivers are James Heal, Lori Cudrak, Bonnie Elliott, Miss Jordan, and Tony Machacek. I’d ask that they rise and we give them the regular warm welcome of t his Assembly. head: Recognitions The S peaker: W e’ll s tart w ith t he hon. Member f or R ed D eer- North.

Red Deer College Kings Volleyball Team Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s an honour for me stand in the Legislature of Alberta today to recognize the Red Deer College Kings men’s volleyball team dynasty. Mr. Speaker, what do you get when you win 38 straight matches in provincial and national volleyball championships? You get six consecutive national volle yball championships and a claim to a national dynasty. Thanks to the exceptional direction of head coach Keith Hansen, the C ollege K ings vo lleyball t eam ha s won a nother national championship.

The national tournament was played in Fredericton, New Brunswick, where the College Kings set a national record for the Canadian Colleges Athletic Association men’s volleyball with six straight championships, the eighth in 11 years. Congratulations to all the coaches and players of the Red Deer College Kings and a special congratulation to tournament MVP and the Canadian Colleges Athletic Association player of the year, Joey Martins. Mr. Speaker, I ask that all members of the Legislature join me in congratulating the Red Deer College Kings men’s volleyball team on their six straight national titles.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. Tom Baldwin Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is with great regret that I rise today to rec ognize the lat e Tom Baldwin, the executive director of the Northern Alberta Development Council. Tom suddenly and unexpectedly passed away on Sunday, March 13. He was 48 years old. Tom was well known throughout the north and respected for working miraculously in his quiet articulate fashion.

His knowledge, leadership, and accomplishments can only be marvelled at, and his expertise can only really be a ppreciated by those who had just a fragment of his understanding. As a chair of the North ern Alberta Development Council I was fortunate enough to be able to work closely with Tom, and I was always amazed at how hard he worked to improve communities. He was on countless committees and associations and never missed an opportunity to use his great charisma and tireless energy to promote northern Alberta. Tom’s commitment to excellence was apparent in all aspects of his life and his work.

He will be dearly missed by his family, friends, and colleagues. Thank you very much. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Wetaskiwin-Camrose. 2:30 Jared Potts Jennifer Ross Mr. Johnson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Every year the Great Kids awards honour ou tstanding yout h f or th eir co ntributions to th eir schools, communities, and families. This past Sunday two of m y constituents received the Great Kids award. The firs t c onstituent is J ared P otts, a 14 year old a ttending Griffiths-Scott school in Millet. Jared is known for kindness and thoughtfulness. Jared’s parents passed away when he was young.

Despite that, he has shown perseverance and tenacity through his actions in the community . He’s recognized for his kindness and bases his success on what he gives to others as opposed to what he receives. The other recipient is Jennifer Ross. Jennifer is a 17 year old from Camrose. It’s been said that Jennifer has displayed some extraordi- nary feats throughout her life. When Jen was four, she suffered from a virus which sev erely damaged her liver, which required a l iver transplant.

From that point on, Jen became a passionate spokesper- son for organ donations and served as the Stollery children’s hospital child c hampion in 2003-2004. Jen displays great strength and generosity and will continue to be a leader in the community. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Stony Plain. Stony Plain Atom Hockey Double-A Team Mr. Lindsay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to recognize an outstanding group of young a thletes aged nine to 11 from m y constituency of Stony Plain.

The Stony Plain atom double-A hockey team pa rticipated i n t he provincial c hampionship to urnament in Barrhead over the past weekend. By exhibiting a high level of skill, teamwork, and sportsmanship, this team, coached by Mr. Malcolm Berndt, won the gold medal and are the new provincial champions. I ask my collea gues to join me in congratula ting t he play ers, coaches, and manager on this outstanding accomplishment. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. School Lunch Program Mrs. Mather: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my privilege today to talk a bout th e E dmonton s chool lu nch pr ogram.

T his program provides a well-balanced lunch to children so that they can concen- trate on their schoolwork and not on their hunger. The program, which feeds nearly 2,300 children in 12 participa ting schools, provides on e-third of a c hild’s da ily n utritional re quirements. Lunches are prepared by t he Misericordia and Edmonton General hospitals.

In addition, the Edmonton school lunch program also offers young chefs groups, collect ive kitchens, snack in the shack, and the nutritional snack program where funding is given to parti cipating schools to provide a mid-morning nutritious snack to 6,300 children in 33 high-needs schools. And the breakfast club: a junior high school provides a healthy breakfast each morning. Teachers recognize the benefits of the lunch program, indicating that there is a positive influence on student behaviour, attendance, morale, concentration, and learning ability.

The Edmonton school lunch program is a cost-efficient investment in our children and our communities. Its con tinued growth depends upon generous dona- tions from all sectors of the community. Thank you.

Alberta Hansard March 16, 2005252 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Safeway Support for ArtStart Program Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. During February Safeway grocers across Alberta and western Canada kick-sta rted the Show Your Heart campaign, which raises upwards of $15 million a year for local charities. Here in Edmonton-Centre the Oliver Safeway is supporting ArtStart throughout the year of 2005, thereby making an incredible d ifference in our co mmunity. I’m ve ry pl eased to acknowledge the remarkable efforts of the Safeway staff and volunteers in Edmont on and across the province.

T he particular enthusiasm of those Oliver Safeway staff like Adrianne Brown and store man ager Dan Kolba and their work for ArtStart should be applauded. ArtStart, headed by J acqueline B iollo, i s a p rogram th at gives inner-city children the opportunity to produce art portfolios, learn a variety of m ediums, p articipate in c hoir and m usical theatre. They’re introduced to creative movement through dance and are invited to learn the violin or viola. The value and importance of this program is priceless. On Saturday, February 12, the Oliver Safeway raised $2,000 for its cause.

Pl ease join me in congratulating the hard-working volunteers of Oliver Safeway and ArtStart and commending them on their efforts for this wonderful charity. Thank you. head: Pre senting Pet itions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. Mr. VanderBurg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to present a petition from approximately 670 constituents of Whitecourt-Ste. Anne urging the Legislative Assembly to increase the funding for long-term ca re facilities so th at our senio rs ca n r emain in th eir communities when they no longer can look after themselves. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview. Mr. Martin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two petitions to table today. The first is a petition with 324 signatures urging the govern- ment to “institute a fair and equitable . . . floor price for cattle.” The second is a petition with 648 signatures calling for increased funding for improvements to Highway 63. Thank you. head: Introduction of B ills The Speaker: The hon. Member for Cypress-Medicine Hat. Bill 11 Stettler Regional Water Authorization Act Mr. Mitzel: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I request leave to introduce Bill 11, the Stettler Regional Water Authorization Act, 2005, which would ensure a safe, secure water supply for approximately 6,000 Albertans living in the communities of Donalda, Big Valley, Rochon Sands, White Sands, Byemoor, Endiang, Erskine, Nevis, and Red Willow. Thank you. [Motion carried; Bill 11 read a first time] The Speaker: The hon. Government House Leader. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d move that Bill 11 be moved onto the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Bill 28 Municipal Government Amendment Act, 2005 Mr. Renner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to request leave to introduce Bill 28, the Municipal Government Amendment Act, 2005. The bill introduces two new tools for municipal revenue genera- tion. The first is a property tax increment financing tool which will help municipalities address infrastructure and other costs associated with redevelopment in designated areas. The second will provide the authority for municipalities to pass a bylaw to collect a levy from sand and gravel o perators to address som e of the impacts of the extraction activity.

The bill also clari fies taxation stat us for certain Crown lease properties to ensure consistent taxation rules and equitable property tax treatment. In particular, this affec ts certain Crown lease assessments associated with parks and recreation areas. Finally, the bill will allow for clarification of the administration of the linear assessment process. [Motion carried; Bill 28 read a first time] head: Tabling Retu rns a nd Reports The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Ms Evans: Thank you , M r. Speaker.

I ’m ta bling t he requisite number of copies of the Northern Lights health region annual report 2003-04, the Alberta Cancer Board annual report 2003-04, and the Alberta Mental Health Board annual report 2003-04. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Gaming. Mr. Graydon: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I wish to table with the A ssembly the appropria te number of co pies of th ree an nual reports. The first is the Alberta Gaming and Liquor Comm ission 2003-2004 annual report. The second document is the Charitable Gaming in Alberta review 2003-2004.

Finally, pursuant to the Horse Racing Alberta Act I would like to table today the Horse Racing Alberta 2003 annual report. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Red Deer-North. Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to table five copies of a document from the Epp family in Red Deer in support of Bill 202, PCAD. This document states that all five members of this family “have suffered unspeakable pain and grief and trauma” as a result of the drug and alcohol addictions of their daughter and sister that began when she was 13 years old, when she was a bright and gifted straight-A student.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings this afternoon. Both of these documents have b een uncovered by

March 16, 2005 Alberta Hansard 253 American authorities, and they’re in regard to Enron’s activities in Alberta through Project Stanley. The first is a backgrounder that was prepared on behalf of the compan y a fter the Competit ion Bureau had initiated an investigation of certain transactions involv- ing Enron and Powerex during the period fr om June to October of 1999. The second tabling is again from Enron’s legal advisors to some of their operators in regard to Project Stanley, and they’re asking the question: were the Project Stanley tapes destroyed? Thank you. 2:40 The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Calgary-Varsity. Mr. Chase: Thank y ou, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table four documents that were e-mailed to my constituency office today. The first is from Frances Plaunt, the second from Bettie Yanota, the third from E. Seidle, an d t he fourth fr om To m Y anota. They ’re all expressing concerns about the lack of consultation between the province and their community with regard to the 16th Avenue road expansion. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-McClung. Mr. Elsalhy: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am happy to be tabling the a ppropriate number of copies of the front and second pages of th at website th at I r eferred to in qu estion period. I t’s utilitiesconsumeradvocate.gov.ab.ca on the index page, and it refers to the consumer advocate’s investigation into Project Stanley. Thank you. The S peaker: The hon. Member for Edm onton-Highlands- Norwood. Mr. Mason: Thank y ou ve ry much, Mr. Speaker. I have two documents t o t able today. The first i s f rom t he Alberta U rban Municipalities Association entitled AUMA Frustrated with Provin- cial Funding Formula for Am bulance Transitioning.

The release details AUMA’s frustration with the funding formula proposed by the government after the con fusion relative to the tra nsfer of responsibilities for ambulance services. The second I would like to table is the appropr iate number of copies of the Far Side cartoon by Gary Larson enti tled The Real Reason D inosaurs Went Ex tinct. I t s hows, o f c ourse, d inosaurs smoking. Government members may wish to take note. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. head: Tabl ings t o the C lerk The Clerk: I wish to advise the House that the following documents were deposited with the office of the Clerk on behalf of the hon.

Mr. Stevens, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General pursuant to the Legal Profession A ct: th e A lberta L aw F oundation 31s t a nnual report, 2004, for the fiscal year ended March 31; the Alberta Law Foundation audited financial statements and other financial informa- tion for the year ended March 31, 2004. head: Statem ent by t he Speaker Committees of the Whole House The Speaker: Hon. members, in just a f ew seconds I’m going to say, “Orders of the Day,” and then something really neat is going to happen for the new members. The Clerk will then say, “Commit- tee”; the Speaker will depart.

A lot of members ask, “Why is it the Speaker has to leave?” other than the Speaker really likes the fact that he has to leave. So I’ve done some research just to give you some of these historical vignettes. In 1641 in Great Britain during a Parlia ment that was called a Long Parliament, a particular individual was appointed Chairman of Committees so as to get him out of the way so that he might not obstruct the ordinary business of the House by too much speaking. So that was a pretty neat thing.

In those day s the Speaker was too often the spy of the King, so it was considered that if you wanted to get rid of him at certain times, this could be best done by turning the House into a committee and putting some other mem ber into the chair. From another book, The House Was My Home: Then t he c om mittee sys tem ca me into bei ng and w ork w as sent out to c om mittee s of M ember s to be de alt with and r epor ted ba ck.

The M em ber s st ill fel t a sense of r est riction impo sed by t he for mal rules of pr oc edu re i n t he H ou se un til s ome pa rliame ntary ge nius s ug- ges ted t hat if the Spe ake r w ere t o l ea ve t he Chai r and t he M ac e be rem ov ed fr om t he T ab le t he w ho le H ou se w ou ld t hen b ecom e a com mittee and cou ld p roceed und er the m ore infor mal rules w hich the M em ber s f ou nd so usef ul i n the com mittees est abl ished t o act outside th e H ouse . . . [A s a m atte r o f f act] c ommitte es o f th e w hole H ouse, to co nsid er im portan t su bjec ts su ch as m oney bills [in G rea t B ritain ], we re first recorded in 1607, whe n it w as affirme d for the first time that i f M r Sp eaker w ere absent t he who le H ou se mi gh t be a committe e, to consider th e details o f a B ill.

But at that time the Speaker did not nec essarily have to leave the Chamber. That really didn’t evolve until about 200 years ago, but it was a great evolution. So you’ve now become a little more informed. In a minute or two you can get up and walk about, and you can visit somebody on the other side of the House, and you can doff jackets and things like that. head: Orders of the D ay head: Committe e of Supply [Mr. Shariff in the chair] The D eputy Chair: Hon. members, we’ll call the committee to order. As the Speaker indicated to you, this is an informal session.

However, for any member who wishes to speak, you have to be at your own chair to be recognized to speak, but you can move around in the Assembly at this stage. head: Int eri m Supp ly E stimates 2005- 06 Offices of the L egi slative A ssem bly, Governm ent, an d Lot tery Fun d The D eputy C hair: Would anyone like to be gin debat e on the interim supply? The hon. Government House Leader. Mr. Hancock: Only insofar, Mr.

Chairman, as to put forward that, as is the normal practice of the House, of course, the estimates which were voted last year, supply which was voted last year through the appropriation bill, cease as of the end of March of this year. So interim supply is necessary in order to allow government to pay its staff an d t o p rovide the grants funding t hat w e p rovide to government-supported o rganizations s uch as s chools and he alth authorities and others around the province.

It’s a normal and routine manner with which to ensure that the life of the province goes on insofar as it’s supported by the citizens through their government. Interim s upply that’s be ing r equested at th is po int i n t ime i s

Alberta Hansard March 16, 2005254 basically a rough estimate of the first part of the yea r and in some cases slightly more than that for a department where grant funding is paid out early in the year. Of course, the fullness of the discussion around supply and the fullness of support of supply will come as the budget is tabled and we move into Committee of Supply with respect to the regular estimates.

So I’d encourage the House to support interim supply estimates so that as we get into the fullness of debate at Committee of Supply for each department, as this House w ell knows we will, the on going operations of government through schools, hospitals, the mainte- nance of ro ads, an d a ll the o ther things w hich are neces sary to provide the infrastruct ure and capital and huma n support for Albertans continue. The Deputy Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. M acDonald: Thank y ou very much, Mr. Chairman.

It’s a pleasure to rise and get the opportunity to participate in the discus- sion, in the debate in re gard to interim supply estimates for 2005- 2006. C ertainly, everyone recognizes that the government has to receive interim funding. We can describe this as normal and routine, but many citizens in this province do not consider this government’s spending n ormal n or ro utine, a nd w e c annot be ca valier w ith government spending. Since I have become a me mber of this H ouse, government spending on the total budget has increased from roughly $14 billion to $22 billion.

As I’ve said many times before, we still have the same problems in regard to access to health care, closure of public schools, roads, bridges, sewers, the maintenance and the construc- tion of our infrastruct ure. So we have to be careful whenever we describe things as normal and routine. 2:50 Perhaps this interim supply, the amounts to be voted here, Mr. Chairman, would not nearly be so large if this government would plan their annual budget so that the budget would be tabled or presented to the Legislative Assembly before the end of the fiscal year.

Now, I don’t know if that is too much to ask, but I know that in some fiscal years that has been accomplished. Now, this year, for reasons th at are no t k nown to th is me mber, t hat’s no t g oing to happen. Certai nly, this is a rough estima te, and when we use the words “rough estimate” to describe a budget process, it makes one want to have a closer look at this list of i nterim supply estimates. Mr. Chairman, whenever we use rough estimating for budgets, there can be problems.

I d on’t want to go ba ck to a t ime in rece nt hi story wh en this Progressive Conservative government used to use special warrants to fund their habits, but that use of special warrants was, in my view, because m aybe our e stimates were rough. M aybe our b udget estimates need to be refined. But we have to be cognizant of the fact and all hon. members of this Assembly recognize that we do only have one taxpayer, and we have to show a great deal of respect and restraint. As this budget process, which the hon.

Minister of Advanced E ducation e arlier e xplained t o t he House, i s g oing to unfold, and we’r e g oing to ge t t o t he main es timates of ea ch department eventually, we have to have a look at what we’re doing here with interim supply amounts to be voted. If we loo k a t the schedule, we’re looking at support for the Legislative Assembly of $12 million; the offic e of the Auditor General, 4 and a h alf million dollars. Th e Ombudsman is to get $700,000. The Chief Elec toral Officer is to get $700,000.

Mean- while, in supplementary estimates we have an amount that was to be voted because of the Senate elections that was greater than what was previously estimated. That Senate election must have been one of those rough estimates that we were talking about earlier. We have $100,000 for the Ethics Commissioner, and we have the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner to receive $1.1 million. That would be a total in the LAO budget of a little bit over $19 million. Now, for the government here it’s all neatly listed alphabetically, A through S.

The Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development department is to get $10.6 million. Advanced Education is to get two am ounts. Th e f irst i s for e xpense a nd eq uipment/inventory purchases of $255 million and nonbudgetary disbursements of $20 million, so that’s a total of $275 million. Ag riculture, Food and Rural Development is to receive $160 million. Children’s Services is to receive close to $350 million. Community Development. I’m sure that as time progresses, we’re going to see the Community Development budget scrutinized with a great deal of interest by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie.

The hon. member has been in his office, I noticed, poring diligently over not only the previous annual report from that department, Mr. Chairman, but he’s gone back four or possibly five fiscal years by now. It’ll be interesting to see what is uncovered in that department. But at the momen t that department is to receive through interim supply an amount exceeding $100 million. Economic Development. Now, that’s not the department that has the aircraft fleet. No; I’m mistaken. That’s Infrastructure. Eco- nomic Development us es the a irplane o n o ccasion. E conomic Development is to get $14 million.

Education, a very im portant an d s ometimes un appreciated department, is to receive over $660 million. Energy is to receive in interim supply $59 million. Environment is to receive a little bit over $22 million. I don’t know what the total budget will be for the Department of Environment, but I would think, Mr. Chairman, that it would be significant. Executive Council is to receive at this time over $5 million. Finance in two budgetary items is to receive over $31 million. Gaming is a player, certainly, in interim supply.

F or expenses there is going to be an amount allocated of $38 million and lottery fund paym ents of $316 million. I would love an update on just exactly where these lottery fund payments will be going in the first quarter of the fiscal year. That’s a lot of money. I’m sure some of it is going to th e d epartment of he alth, some w ould be go ing t o Children’s Services. When and where in those departments would that money be going? Government S ervices is to receive over $17 million. Now, Government Services is a very interesting department.

Certainly, in question period earlier today there was a discussion about the role of Government Services and the role of the consumer advocate. There was also a discussion in question period today about grizzly bears in hibernation, and there would be those th at would say that the consumer advocate is in hibernation, and there are those that would say that they hope the consumer advocate comes out of hibernation. The consumer advocate: I don’t know whether it’s a shared office. I don’t know exactly how this works. Some view this as a conflict. “Some” would include this hon. member.

The Government Services assistant deputy minister or deputy minister, I forget which, is one and th e s ame a s the c onsumer advocate. I th ink that if it’s an important jo b, which s ome p eople think it i s, th ere s hould b e a dedicated individual hired to do one job. 3:00 Now, I’m certain that the consu mer advocate is not going to be paid out of this amount of $17 million because, of course, the budget for the consumer advocate is coming from the ratepayers, from the

March 16, 2005 Alberta Hansard 255 natural gas customers in this province and the customers of electric- ity. There is a little bit of a levy, a tax, you name it, on consumers. They’re paying f or th is of fice, a nd th is is ge tting to be , as w as mentioned in question period, a very expensive office. Now, Health and Wellness is to receive in the next short period of time over $2 billion. Certainly, we want to ensure that our hospitals and our regional health authorities are receiving adequate funding.

At this time perhaps we could get an update from the government members as to exactly how that budget process works. Do the health authorities p resent t heir b udgets i n a dvance? If s o, how f ar in advance before the provincial budget is set? I think it would be interesting to find out how many of the health authorities are setting their budgets well in ad vance before the province sets the global budget. Human Resources and Empl oyment is to receive $136 million, again for expense and equipment/inventory purchases.

Infrastructure and Transportation is to receive – oh, here we go – expense and equipment/inventory purchases, $485 million. I hope that they’re not going to buy a new airplane with that, maybe a jet. I hope not. Why not? Because there’s no need of any more aircraft. If I could mak e a suggestion to the government, perhaps y ou should reduce t he size of that fleet and maybe hire or buy an a ir ambulance that could take sick Albertans from rural Alberta into Edmonton and C algary to r eceive medical t reatment i n a tim ely fashion.

We could reduce the size of the government fleet and increase the number of air ambulances, maybe a helicopter, perhaps, or m aybe a f ixed-wing ai rcraft th at would b e s uitable for th at purpose. Infrastructure and Transportation is receiving a lot of money, and one of the areas I certainly hope that they don’t spend any money is on new airplanes. But I certainly hope that they do maintain the ones we’ve got, for obvious reasons.

I wouldn’t want any of them to be crashing or have to stay at an airport in anot her province or another cou ntry and have to charter back because that, as we all know, can get really expensive. Now, Innovation and Science is to receive $35 million. I don’t believe the SuperNet is involved with Innovation and Science. That has been moved over to the RAGE department. International and Intergovernmental Relations is below Innovation and Science, and they are to receive $3 million. The Justice department is to receive $67 million.

Now, the Justice Department is certainl y not involved in the construct ion of the courthouse in Calgary. That would be Infrastructure and Transporta- tion. Justice is mos t certainly involved in the planning of it, but they’re no t p aying fo r i t. Ok ay. T here a re in s upplementary estimates amounts for the courthouse in Calgary, but perhaps we’ll get to that late r on this afternoon. So J ustice is going to ge t $67 million. Municipal Affairs is to receive $31,600,000. Restructuring and Government Efficienc y is to receive, to my astonishment, $66 million. I t hink I n eed g lasses.

I saw in the quarterly report that was released where the RAGE department had received I believe it was $37 million. In a very short period of time that department has been very efficient at spending tax dollars, and now we see that it is to receive an interim supply amount of over $66 million. What are we going to use that money for? Cer tainly, in question period this afternoon the only file that seemed to be open on the hon. minister’s desk, as I understood it, was the SuperNet. There was no talk of studyi ng any re structuring or government efficiency.

It was just, “I’m going to deal with one file,” and that was it. So I don’t know what all thi s money would be for, and I would really appreciate an explanation at this time. After the last election when the government caucus grew, the size of cabinet grew. This is not a government that is concer ned about reducing the size of government, as some would be led to believe, because certainly the number of government members increased in 2001 and the size of the cabi net increased dramatically. Well, the government shrank in the election last fall.

Ev en the odd cabinet minister lost their seat, yet we see that, again, the size of government continues to expand, this time not by seven or eight ministries but by one, this RAGE, Restructuring and Government Efficiency. I think that when taxpayers get a look at this amount, they may be enraged with the RAGE ministry for spending far too much money without any adequate explanation as to why. Now, Seniors and Community Supports is to receive $347 million.

Certainly, there have been some initiatives recently by this govern- ment to finally admit that some of the past government policies have reduced significantly the disposable income of many of Alberta’s seniors. If a person or a couple has been retired for 10 ye ars, 15 years their disposable income, unfortunately, has not kept up – the cost of utilities, the cost of insurance – and that has really affected a lot of seniors. We want to encourage seniors to live independently in their own homes for as long as possible. The government has sort of admitted that, yes, they have been maybe a little bit stingy.

I think we can afford to give our seniors an adequate disposable income through the Alberta seniors’ benefits without breaking this province. When these individuals retired, they didn’t know that this government was going to, for instance, proceed with electricity deregulation, and a power bill now is a big expense at the end of the month for many retired seniors. They come into the constituency office, I see them in the coffee shop, and they tell me that, Mr. Chairman.

If we can use some of this money to increa se the Alberta seniors’ benefits, I think it would be wisely spe nt and would be respectful of the citizens who helped build this province. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Deputy Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Rutherford. 3:10 Mr. R. Miller: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It’s my honour to have the opportunity as well to speak to the interim supply estimates. I n m y mi nd, w e shouldn’t e ven be he re having t his discussion today. W e should be discussing a budget today, n ot interim supply.

I u nderstand f rom p revious L egislatures t hat w e normally s it starting somewhere around the second week of February. Nobody has yet made clear to any of those of us on this side of the House why we were not here the second week of February. As you know, there are many, many new MLAs in the Legislature this time around. Elected November 22, we were anxious and ready and willing and able to go to work. We’ve been chomping at the bit literally for months now.

Obviously, on e o f t he first ta sks that we lo ok fo rward to i s debating the budget, planning the fiscal priorities for this province for the coming year. Here we are two weeks away from the end of the fiscal year, and we don’t even have a preliminary budget in front of us to begin debating. Now, the hon. Member for Edmonton-Whitemud indicated that this is a normal process. My point would be, Mr. Chairman, that this does not have to be a normal process, and in fact it’s not necessarily a normal process in other jurisdictions. It certainly has become a normal process here in Alberta.

We’ve got a one-week break coming up at the end of next week. We’re going to take a break for spring break, and I understand that many members are looking forward to that, but I question whether or not that’s appropriate given the fact that we don’t have a budget.

Alberta Hansard March 16, 2005256 I think we should be here, debating the budget as opposed to going skiing or whatever it is that some of the other members m ight be planning on doing. I know that I’ll be working on budget prepara- tions. Mr. Chairman, after three and a half weeks of work we’re going to take a one-week holiday. Now, I don’t know, but in my mind that seems an awful lot like the severance packa ge that Mr. West received for working only six months as the chief of staff and ended up with a huge severance. An Hon. Member: Relevance. Mr. R . Mi ller: It ’s very rel evant, I ’m af raid.

Th ree an d a ha lf weeks of w ork, and he re we ar e gett ing a on e-week ho liday. I honestly don’t believe we should be taking a break at all. Now, it’s amazing to me, Mr. Chairman, that we’re asked to look at interim supply esti mates with one or two lines only per depart- ment. There’s absolutely no information there that tells us what this money might be used for, and in fact as we rise to speak in this debate in committee today, we’re left to guess at what the various ministries and their ministers might be wanting the money for.

I don’t know what you would expect us to tell our constituents when we go back to the constituency on Thursday afternoon or Friday and meet them in the office, and they’re going to ask us: “Where is the budget? We ’re a lmost a t t he end of th e f iscal year, an d w e’re wondering what the government is going to spend the money on this coming year.” An Ho n. Me mber: They ’re not going t o ask y ou that question. You’re not in government. Mr. R. Miller: They do ask us because it’s their money. You know, the hon. members across the way, Mr.

Chairman, perhaps should remember that this is not money that belongs to the government. This is money that belongs to the taxpayer, and I can assure the one hon. member that every single time I meet with a constituent, they express concerns to me about their tax dollars and the way that their tax dollars are being used. So for somebody from across the floor to suggest t hat it ’s no t m y mo ney because I’m in op position, he’s missing the boat entirely. This is money that belongs to every single taxpayer, and they have a right to know how the government plans to use it over the coming fiscal year.

As I say, here we are two weeks away from the end of this year, and they’re asking us for 5 billion and some dollars without any more than a single line in t erms of telling us what they might be using this for. Mr. Chairman, I’m not sure that I’m going to do what my colleague from Edmonton-Gold Bar did and go through line by line, although I might. Certainly , as the Finance criti c I wonder abo ut finance in particular, and I see in here – I always find it interesting that I get up to mention finance, and the minister gets up to leave – that there’s $32.3 million. Mr. Dunford: Point of order.

Point of Order Referring to the Absence of Members Mr. Dunford: You know what? I don’t know what the item is, but we’re not to comment on people’s attendance or nonattendance in this House. Mr. MacDonald: Citation? Mr. Dunford: You know the answer. The Deputy Chair: Hon. mem bers, t he chair did not hear those comments, but if they were made, they are not appropriate. As a convention we do not comment on a fellow m ember’s presence or absence in the Assembly. Okay? Mr. R. Miller: My apologies to the hon. member, Mr. Chairman. Debate Continued Mr. R.

Miller: As I was saying, $32.3 million estimated for the Finance ministry: a simple two-line explanation. There’s nothing to tell us what it’s for. Now, I’m wondering, and I had hoped to be able to ask the Finance minister – perhaps I will later – if 1.4 million of those dollars . . . Mr. Dunford: He just did it again. Mr. R. Miller: I did not. I said that I may ask the minister. Mr. Chairman, I hope you were listening this time. Chair’s Ruling Decorum The Deputy Chair: Hon. members, please. Please speak through the chair. Y ou h ave to h ave some decorum i n t his Assembly.

Although we are at committee stage, I think there has to be decorum. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Rutherford has the floor. Debate Continued Mr. R. Miller: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m sure if yourself or anybody else would like to check Hansard, I indicated that I may later ask the minister this question.

I’m hoping that $1.4 million is included in this $32.3 million so that we can explain to Albertans through some sort of an advertising program why they should feel good about being asked to roll over and take their medicine by this government and the auto insurance industry as we continue to pay record high auto insurance premiums and the insurance industry continues to collect record high profits.

Last year , as you well know – and it ’s in th e s upplementary estimates, which we will be debating later today – this same ministry spent $1.4 million trying to explain to Albertans, with a very slick advertising campaign I might add . . . Mr. MacDonald: How much did it cost? Mr. R. Miller: One point four million dollars, Hughie. . . . to try to convince Albertans that the insurance reforms were a good idea. Maybe it’s just me being cynical, but it also happened to be just before a provincial election.

S o I’m really hoping that there’s $1.4 million included in this $32.3 million that might go now towards Albertans to help them feel good ab out the fac t that the insurance industry is making record profits at their expense. Now, someone will have to explain to me – I’ve said it several times, and I don’t mind saying it again. I am relatively new to this process. I do no t un derstand w hat no nbudgetary d isbursements mean in the Ministry of Finance.

I know there’s a two-line explana- tion in the estimates that talks about “non-budgetary disbursements consist of the exchange of cash for another form of asset, or for the reduction of a liabi lity.” I note here that out of the $32.3 million about one-third is for nonbudgetary disbursements. I’m sorry. I just don’t understand what that means, and I’m hoping that at some point somebody will have the opportunity to explain that to me.

March 16, 2005 Alberta Hansard 257 There are a couple of other ministries that I flagged because they create some interest for me. The ministry of health as an example: a little more than $2 bil lion for expense and equipment and $5.6 million on capita l investment. Now, I’m curious. W e had some discussion earlier today about the health symposium that’s going on in May. C ertainly, there was discussion of the fact th at this is an invitation-only event, and I believe the Premier said that there were some 500 invited guests, hand picked by the government.

I’d like to know just how much of this money is going to put on that event. Albertans have exp ressed a n i ncredible a mount of in terest i n health care and are very, very concerned about whatever the plans might be by this government for the future of health care, whether it be a third way or a s econd way or no way at all. I ’d be very curious to know just how much money that particular event is going to cost. Again, Mr. Chairman, we’re not going to find out now until probably sometime in the middle of April, which is shortly before that symposium takes place, how much it’s going to cost.

I think it’s unfair to my constituents and to the rest of Albertans to be left in the dark o n t hat pa rticular ex pense. T hey’d li ke to kn ow w hat it ’s costing. 3:20 I’m going to e cho the comments of the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar on this one, but I had exactly the same thought: Restructuring and Government Efficiency, $66.2 million, and this afternoon the minister stood in the House and told us that the only file t hat he ’s co ncentrating on righ t n ow at al l i s the S uperNet.

Given that t his i s an estimate that’s supposed to run only to the beginning of June, $66.2 million seems like an awful lot of money for one file, as the Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar suggested. I’m wondering if we shouldn’t perhaps call it the supersize Internet as opposed to the SuperNet because somebody is certainly supersizing the budget there, Mr. Chairman. There were a couple of others here that certainly caught my eye. Advanced Educat ion, $255 m illion for expense and equipment/inventory purchases. I have no idea what that might be. Certainly advanced education is a concern.

I heard it time and time again at the door. People are very concerned about the future of their children, especially if they have school-age children or children that might be ap proaching universi ty ag e, a s I d o m yself, M r. Chairman. I have two children that are approa ching u niversity age, and certainly postsecondary education is something that I’m very, very concerned about, and ma ny of my constituents are as well.

You know, actually, Friday afternoon I have a meeting with a constituent who has a concern about a high school student, a child of theirs, and this is going to most likely be a concern of theirs as well. It’s just really, really hard for me to sit down and try to explain to somebody why we’re being asked to approve $5 billion, and there’s nothing more than a single line to address that. Now, a couple of other comments.

I mentioned earlier that the Member for Edmonton-Whitemud talked about this being a normal practice and a usual practice of this Assembly to approve interim estimates, and I couldn’t help but notic e a report from Canadian Business and Current Affairs, the Canadian Parliamentary Review, that last y ear in Saskatchewan, which is the lovely province next door to ours, a sister province of ours, in their spring session for the very, very first time in that province’s history they approved some interim funding because they had yet to pass the budget.

Interest- ingly eno ugh, in th at particular case t hey a ctually had a b udget before them which they were deliberating. They had the information in front of them but did not have time to pass the budget before the end of the fiscal year, so they had to move to interim funding. But this was the first time in that province’s history. We’ve talked about the centennial a lot, Mr. Chairman. You will know, as will other members, that Saskatchewan is as old as Alberta.

Now, I wish I had had time this afternoon to check and see how many times in Alberta’s history we’ve had inte rim supplies, but obviously it’s certainly more than once. I was able to look back through several of the most recent years, and it seems year after year after y ear, as the Member for Edmonton- Whitemud suggested, interim supply is a normal practice for this government. It certainly is not and has not been a normal practice in Saskatchewan, so that would cause me a great deal of concern as well.

Now, I would like to s ubmit th at maybe Saskatchewan has s ome p ractices th at this Finance minister an d this p rovince s hould b e l ooking at ve ry carefully. Well, I’m at about the stage, Mr. Chairman, where I’m going to start doing as my colleague from Edmonton-Gold Bar did and go through line by line. The first thing that appears on here is $12 million for support to the Legislative Assembly.

Like most working stiffs in th is pr ovince I n eed a p aycheque, s o I ’m no t g oing to question too seriously the $12 million that’s being asked for there, because my wife would probably give me a hard time when I came home tonight if I didn’t have a paycheque coming. Office of the Auditor General, $4.5 million. Office of the Ombudsman: it lo oks like this gentleman is actually quite frugal. It’s only $700,000 between now and the 1st of June. Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, $700,000. I’m not sure what they’re doing right now over at that office, Mr. Chairman.

Perhaps they’re still counting ballots or something. I’m really not sure what that might be. Office of the Ethics Commissioner: I’m surprised, quite frankly, that that budget isn’t a little bigger than $100,000. Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner: well, $1.1 million to o perate t hat o ffice f or t he next two months. I can understand that because it certainly appears that they have a very big job on their plate in terms of FOIP legislation and the work that they do limiting access to information by A lbertans, it seems, at every turn.

T hat’s been qui te evident, most r ecently es pecially wi th attempts to get information on the flight logs with the government aircraft. Now, A boriginal Affairs an d N orthern D evelopment, $ 10.6 million. I would like t o think that some of that m oney might be contemplated to go towards holding s ome public hearings on the Métis harvesting rights, alt hough it doesn’t appear as if that’s the case. I d o u nderstand t hat th ere is a m eeting coming u p i n Bonnyville soon, and I a pplaud the minister f or h olding th at meeting. I wish there had been m any more across the province.

Perhaps, contemplated in this $10.6 million, Mr. Chairman, that’s what the minister is planning. Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, $160.6 million. It’s an awful big number. I ’m not sure what’s in there. I ’m hoping that there may be some BSE relief in there for our farmers. Certainly, the federal government came through this week with some more relief for farmers, and I’m hoping that the Alberta government might do so as well. Community Development, $90 million between now and the 1st of June.

Again, a pretty big number, although I understand that we have some celebrations coming up somewhere around the May long weekend, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps some of that $90 million is earmarked for the royal visit that is contemplated. Economic Development, $14 million between now and the 1st of June. I’m not sure, again, what that might be for. We had a motion that moved through the House yeste rday, through second reading and into committee. I think it passed committee, actually, and is now at third reading. It’s the motion on the hotel tax.

That money is being raised through the private sec tor, so I’m not sure what the $14 million might be for there. It would be good to know.

Alberta Hansard March 16, 2005258 Just going through here. Five point three million d ollars for Executive Council. Again, being new to the game, I’m not sure. I expect that means those in the front row across from us, and again it’s a pretty bi g number. Gam ing, $316 million for lottery fund payments. I’m not sure what that is for, if that’s winnings that are being paid back to people aft er the money has been collecte d or what. Again, an awful big number. Health and Wellness. Well, Mr. Chairman, $2.044 b illion for Health and Wellness . I have to be honest with you.

I ’m a s mall businessman, and I’ve told people that when I look at numbers as Finance critic, I often have to add three or four or even five zeros to the numbers that I’m used to dealing wit h, and $2.044 billion is a very, very big number. It’s bigger than anything I’ve ever dealt with before. I think it is a recognition by this government of the concerns that the citizens have for health care, but then we heard some very good questions this afternoon on healt h care and the private delivery of some services.

I n fact, the minister indicated that she was q uite comfortable with farming out surgeries to private companies that charge more to the government than we’re able to deliver those same services for through a public system. As much as I’m in favour of giving Albertans the very best health care possible, I’m wondering if that number has to be as big as it is there. M aybe if w e were delivering services through the publicly funded system, which many studies have shown to be more efficient, perhaps that number could be a little smaller than it is in this case. 3:30 Infrastructure and Tr ansportation.

W ell, I have a pa rticular concern with that, Mr. Chairman, beca use my constituency of Edmonton-Rutherford happens to encompass the interchange at 23rd Avenue a nd Ca lgary T rail. A s you well k now, th at particular interchange is in the news a lot, especially as it regards the $1 billion that was supposed to flow through to Edmonton in infrastructure payments. Now that $1 billion appears to have morphed into $750 million, and there is some concern that perhaps the construction of that interchange may be delayed as a result of that lesser amount of funding that’s coming through to the city of Edmonton.

Innovation and Science: $35.4 million. Mr. Chairman, I b elieve my t ime is u p, and I ’ll b e happy to complete running through the book at a later point. Thank you. The Deputy Chair: The h on. Minister of Agricult ure, Food and Rural Development, followed by the hon. Member for Edm onton- Strathcona. Mr. Horner: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was listening intently to the hon. member’s dissertation there, and I wanted to correct him on a couple of things as it related to the agriculture portfolio.

He mentioned that the federa l government ha s c ome through recently with more aid for our producers, and if that is indeed true, I w ould lo ve to s ee the annou ncement th at was made fo r t hat because the only announcement that I am aware of that was made was a repeat an nouncement of th e $ 50 m illion t hat th e f ederal government had committed to the beef marketing initia tive. The only reason, I would like to point out to the hon. member, they did that was on the heels of our $30 million contribution to that same fund in order to diversify our markets.

I would like to point that out to the hon. m ember be cause he m ay be ab le to he lp m e w ith lobbying his federal cousins for some additional funding that was promised to us in some way, shape, or form on the other ruminants in our province. We had a question this afternoon in the House on the other cervid industry in this province.

It should be noted that this government has stepped up to the plate and offered a per head payment as well as marketing dollars for the other ruminant industry based on some indications from th e f ederal government th at they were going t o actually step up to the plate and help that industry out as well. To date – to date – Mr. Chairman, we’ve not seen any dollars in that respect. Another item that I would like to point out, Mr. Chairman, is the $38 million announcement which we have made to tackl e the research component of this crisis that we are involved in, in better understanding BSE.

M y understanding is that to date the federal government has not come forward with any matchi ng funding in that, and I would love to have them come to the table with us on that one. In addition, Mr. Chairman – and these are only a few of the things that come to mind as I sit listening in the Hous e – we’ve already announced $7 million in research and development funding for the SRMs that a re going to cause a serious problem for us in the province and ar e c urrently an is sue.

We w ould ap preciate v ery much if the federal government would see fit to use some of their surplus to help out the producers in this province who are struggling. Quite frankly, Alberta is probably the best place to be in the cattle industry today given the crisis that’s going on across the country and the supports that this government has provided to our industry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Deputy Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona, followed by the Minister of Health and Wellness. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I rise to speak to the motion to approve the interim supply estimates for 2005-2006. I look at the document before us and am impressed with the numbers, first of all, the overall aggregate numbers just for the government departments. For one-sixth of the y ear, beca use these estimates are for two months, the months of April and May, into the next fiscal year, the total amount for 24 government departments that’s being asked for approval for here is close to $5.52 billion.

Multiply it by six because this is only for two months and if you were to use this as the average bimonthly expenditures, the total budget for these 24 departments would likely come close to $33 billion. Now, it w ould seem to me, although I don’t have the numbers before m e – and that’s why it would have been hel pful if the Minister of Finance had provided last year’s interim supply estimate numbers so that we could have a g eneral idea about the relative increase or decrease of the money being asked for by each of the 24 departments and get some idea about, then, why that is the case.

But that information is not there. Notwithstanding, it is the case that this budget if calculated on the basis of the average expenditure of $5.52 billion for every two months will come to about $33 billion or more. I understand that for last yea r, the fiscal y ear that’s just ending, 2004-05, the total amount would be close to perhaps $28 billion. So that’s a huge increase if I ’m correct in that. Th en the increase is close to $5 billion or $5.5 bill ion over the previous y ear of $28 billion, and that amounts to about a 16 to 18 per cent increase. I’m just making these calculations in my head as I go along.

It doesn’t seem to make much sense when you have huge increases proposed by way of this interim supply. I’d like to ask the Minister of Finance if she would like to comment on this increase, and maybe she will have some justification for the very, very radically different numbers for this year than last year. As I said, I can’t help but simply make some estimates here. It would have been nice if we had last year’s numbers mentioned there as part of the interim supply so that I wou ldn’t be accused later on of making wild guesses. That’s all I’m left to do at this moment.

March 16, 2005 Alberta Hansard 259 That is certai nly something that’s I think a concern since it’s a huge amount of money as part of the next year’s budget, which is not before us yet and won’t be for, perhaps, another three to four weeks. Who knows? Maybe the Minister of Finance will tell us the exact date on which that budget will be coming down so that finally Albertans and we here in this Assembly will have an opportunity to take a close look at next year’s budget and the government’s plans to spend taxpayers’ dollars in different ways.

Regardless of when we get the budget and when we finally have a vote on it so that the government has the legitimate right to then go ahead and start spending that money, close to 5 and a half billion dollars are being asked for our appr oval right now without any details available to us with respect to how this money is going to be spent as part of the next fiscal year. I don’t think that’s an appropri- ate way to seek this Assembly’s approval to spend such huge sums of money without accounting in any detail as to where this money is going.

When you look at the different departments, the one that strikes me as the one that deserves, you know, the closest of scrutinies is the new D epartment o f R estructuring a nd G overnment E fficiency. Other members have spoken on the supply estimates requested by different departments, so I won’t go into details on any of those, but this on e i s a d epartment th at seemed to be fr om th e v ery, v ery beginning, from the get-go, terribly redundant.

This government has be en busy restruc turing this government since 1993, yet come 2005-06 it is asking for $66.2 million just for the first two months of the next fiscal year for this department’s expenditures. Multiply that by s ix and the restructuring ministry, which I said is to m e redundant, us eless, not needed, will be spending between $375 million and $400 million on something that this government has been busy doing for the last 13 years without the help of such a ministry. It looks like a make-work arrangement, one that will cost Albertans dearly, to the tune of $400 million.

It could be that much, although it’s difficult to be exact on this. 3:40 So I think there’s a need for this Legislature and certainly for us to raise questions on this. I’m sure the minister responsible or the Minister of Finance will have some comments to make in response to the questions that are being raised here, some of these by me as I look through the different estimates. I have questions about the Seniors and Comm unity Supports, which I suppose is responsible now for AISH recipients. I stand to be corrected if that’s not the case.

In the throne speech the govern- ment made some promises with respect to making adjustments to the AISH payments and to restoring seniors’ benefits related to dental care and eye care. I’m wondering: if those benefits are the responsi- bility of the Department of Seniors and Community Supports, then what amount of this $347 million that are being reque sted for approval for the first two months of the fiscal would go towards increasing the AISH payments and the payments for restoration of seniors’ benefits with respect to dental care and eye care? Similarly, let me take one more case here, Advanced Education.

Since the Minister of Advanced Education will be happy to answer some questions on this, let me pose some. There are $20.3 million under the nonbudgetary disbursements being asked for for the first two m onths of th e n ext fi scal year, f iscal 20 05-2006. P ro-rated annually that comes to about $121 million or more under nonbudget- ary disbursements.

Nonbudgetary disbursements are defined in this document, and the definition is very sparse, I must say: “consist of the exchange of cash for another form of asset” – that’s one category – “or for the reduction of a liability.” Now, ta lking s pecifically about the interim s upply, I w onder: under th ese t wo ca tegories of the no nbudgetary d isbursements what’s the proportion of the $20.3 million that’s going to each? It’s these kinds of questions that need to be addressed.

Also to the Minister of Advanced Education, as part of his Bill 1, I have a fear that the burea ucracy will grow in order to implement some of the propos als relate d to centraliz ation of provi nce-wide admission arrangements and for setting some common standards, the minister calls them, which is part of the language of the bill. What kind of new expenditures are being planned to pay for that necessary bureaucracy that will inevitably be spawning thanks to the proposal that he’s making as part of his Bill 1? So those ar e some specific questions here related to Advanced Education.

I don’t t hink the re is ro om he re to as k t he minister because t he departmental requisi tion h ere, t his supply re quest, relates only to Apr il and May while the academic y ear at the universities and colleges this year will not start until – the classes won’t start until September 1. The academic year started, I suppose, on January 1. Are there any hints in this request that some of the money is being now asked for continuing, with the tuition freeze, into the 2005-2006 academic year?

If so, it would be nice to know what’s roughly the a mount th at’s being re quested in or der to continue to implement the tuition freeze, or is it not on the table at all? I think the minist er sh ould be contri te on this. Over 80,000 Albertans will be enrolling next year, again, into our postsecondary technical institutes, colleges, and universities, and they’re expecting and they’re hoping that this government will continue with a tuition freeze, but they want to be assured about this.

I w ould like the minister, perha ps, to give some s ignals here in response to the monies that he’s asking for as part of his department’s expenditures, whether that includes that consideration of continuing the freeze for those students. I’d much rather be asking these questions in relation to the debate on the budget, but the budget has been delayed so far into the future that these questions must be asked even though the budget is not before us. The fact that the budget is not before us is not the fault of the members of the Assembly.

It falls squarely on the shoulders of this government, which is finding it very hard this year to come up with a budget, which normally is one of the m ajor t asks of the Assembly before t he sp ring session. We’re dealing with tens of billions of dollars of taxpay ers’ money, and we still don’t know when the government plans to spend that money are going to be available to the public and to this Assembly. With that, Mr. Chai rman, I would take my seat, and I will give other hon. members the opportunity. The Deputy Chair: The hon. Minister for Health an d We llness, followed by the hon.

Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Ms Evans: Thank y ou, Mr. Chairman. I t’s a privilege to get up today and defend the supplementary estimates of the Department of Health and Wellness. At the out set I want to remind the hon. member opposite from Edmonton-Rutherford, who spoke about the expenses, that in the introduction of the bill yesterday, the Minister of Finance clearly illuminated why the interim supply estimates were as high as th ey were.

Although the hon. member opposite made much comment about the $2,044,200,000 for expense and equipment and in ventory pu rchases, b y def inition this ex pense in cludes “salaries, supplies, grants, amortization of c apital assets and debt servicing costs.” In short, Health employs just less than a hundred thousand employees, and for two months this amount helps run the health system, for April and May. So an extraordinary wild cost? No, of course not. It is the responsible governance and pay ment

Alberta Hansard March 16, 2005260 through the regional health authorities for the salaries of people that serve the patients of this province. 3:50 Now, Mr. Chairman, in terms of the supplementary estimates that are being debate d, I will comment later, b ut t hat I think was a reference point and a suggestion as well that we should be discussing how much would be spent on this year’s international symposium.

I’d like to remind the hon. member opposite that although it was not a budgeted amount for this ye ar’s budget, we are doing our best within the resources available in the administration of the Depart- ment of Health and Wellness to provide supports for the symposium, to make sure that we have provided monies for those 500-some-odd people that will attend. They will represent every stakeholder group in the hea lth-related field, from opticians to ophthalmologists, physicians, n urses, li censed p ractical nurses, r egional health authorities. T he members of the opposition have been invited to attend as well. Mr.

Chairman, although I’m aware that this attendance might run into conflict with activities in this House, clearly it is being arranged to be pr imarily co nvenient f or th ose m embers of th e p ublic, including physicians, who will evaluate the effectiveness of those treatments. So, quite honestly , the best practic es that will be displayed have been very carefully selected, and we are managing that symposium as parsimoniously as possible. It will be located in Calgary at t he Westin. T he costs that I ’ve s een th at have b een advanced thus far are frugal indeed.

I’m not able now to report what the totals will be, but I will report at some time later. Mr. Chairman, another reference point from the hon. Member for Edmonton-Rutherford was that the minister, if I refer to the Blues, was quite comfortable with expenditures that were made by a private provider for health care service. Those were not words that I stated. I said that evaluation of that had not come forward.

What I am comfortable about and what I can assure this Assembly my comfort relative to is that 500 people who had pain and suffer- ing, who had endured long waiting lists – we were able to alleviate their di scomfort by gi ving th em an op portunity to advanc e t heir surgery in a fashion that made sure that they were attended to. From many of those people I have had either verbal comment or comments from people within the city of Calgary who are family members associated with those particular patients who have said that that was the best thing that happened because it gave them an opportunity to go back to work.

Mr. Chairman, I don’t think there’s more to be said on this interim supply amount to be voted, but this particular reference point is for management of the health care syst em. At some point later when you want to speak about additional operating and capital funding for the years 2004-05, I will identify how we expended the additional funding of $350 million provided to the health authorities to defer or defray their accumulated deficits and provide additional operating funding to enable them to advance the cause on waiting lists. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Deputy Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie.

Mr. Agnihotri: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I rise in the Legislature today to speak to interim supply. The focus of interim supply is to make sure the government has operating grants when they have not yet completed the budgeting process. Even when this government has a budget, they end up overspending. How foolish can that be for a government that cannot organize its time? Once again they want us to write a blank cheque without any detail. It tells us that there is progress in place to start planning, and that’s what’s critical if we are going to be fiscally responsible and fiscally prudent in this province.

We have got to signal them so that the proper budget planning can be undertaken so tha t we can have a reflect ion of the needs of the agencies that are going to be doing the expenditure planning on our behalf. Mr. Chairman, last year Dr. Nicol said this. I gues s one of the t hings that ’s rea lly di fficul t as we go a bout talking with A lber tans about i nterim s uppl y i s f ocus ing on t he ki nd of debat e ar ou nd : what expend iture s are ther e? I know that the no rmal answer to th at is: w ell, w ait till t he budget. And it’s still the same thing today.

But if w e are supposed to w ork on th is ju diciously and in th e spirit of appropria te government re cognitio n of expenditu res, w e need to hav e th e deta il that’s as so cia ted with bein g able to say that th ese are the t yp es o f ex pen ditures. Mr. Chairman, a little further he said: The ques tion t hat comes up i n m y c om muni ty most of al l, you know, is: w hat is go ing to hap pen to the ex pen ditures for se nio rs? The seniors lo st b oth th eir dental a nd optic al b enefits . . . And it’s still the same. . . . or s om e of t hem , in recen t b ud get s.

W ill t hey be re store d through this program? This is the question. Is that going to be p art of t he fo cu s t hat w ill be t here for seniors? The f ocus also that comes up in a num ber of other discus sions wou ld b e: w ill ther e be do llars i n the b ud get and are they i ncl ud ed in t his i nterim s uppl y t o initiate a nd expa nd t he i nves tigat ion of compl aints of al l A lber tans about abus e of el der s?

Y ou know , the elder abuse si tuat ion is real ly get ting to be cr itical when w e loo k at it from the poi nt of view of the number of conce rns that come t o our office s a nd g et raise d ab out: are se niors g etti ng p ro per c are ? A re seniors b ein g lo oked af ter ap propriate ly in th eir h omes an d in ca re faci lities? These are the questions. Thes e are the kinds of things that indi vidual s want to know and w ant ans wers to.

W hen we see just m ajor lines w ith dep art men tal expen ditures, we don’ t know w her e thes e are goi ng, so how can w e c om ment on them ap prop riately w hen individuals ask us? If my constituents ask me about this interim supply, I think they will laugh at the government. Here I have the list of interim supply for the fiscal year ending this year, March 31, 2006. It’s a huge, huge amount. My friend the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar explained all the departments right from the beginning. It’s really a huge amount and without any details.

I want to ask the Minister of Community Development, because I’m the critic for Community Development, to see the breakdown of the $90 million which the government mentioned in this supply list, $90 million they are spending on expenses and equipment/inventory purchases, whatever they call it. How much money will be spent on the programs or t