Manitoba Hansard — 14 April 1977 (Sitting 39A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-39a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBL Y of MAN ITOBA Thursday, April 14, 1977 TIME: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions. PRE SENTIN G REPOR TS BY ST AN DIN G AND SPEC IAL COMM ITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Honourable Member for Radisson, I beg to present the third report of the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR.

CLERK: Your Committee met on Thursday, March 31 , 1977, and Thur sday, April 14 ,1977, to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insur ance Corporation for the Fiscal Year ending October 31 , 1976. Your Committee made certain recommendations with respect to certain information which was considered desirable for inclusion in future Annual Reports. Assurance was given that the information requested will be included in the next and subsequent reports.

Your Committee received all information requested by any member from the officers of the Corporation and the staff with respect to the operations of the Corporation. By resolution of the Committee, the Annual Report of The Manitoba Public Insur ance Corporation, 1976, was adopted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Radisson, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MIN ISTERIAL STATEMEN TS AND TABLIN G OF REPO RTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HONOURABLE SAUL A.

MILLER (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I want to make a statement on the Property Tax Credit Plan for 1977. Each year since we introduced the property tax credit credits in 1972, the government has been able to announce increases in property tax credit deficits ... MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. Does the Honourable Minister have copies? MR. MILLER: There are copies here.

This year, we are departing from tradition and making an early announcement to provide municipalities with this information to facilitate the early processing of the 1977 municipal property tax statements for all those mun icipalities who wish to do so and are in a position to do so because they finalize their budgets. Before dealing with the specifics of the Property Tax Credit program for 1977, Mr. Speaker, I would like to take the opportu nity to commend those school divisions and those municipalities in the province which have exercised restraint in the preparation of the 1977 budgets.

As all honourable members are aware, the resu lts of this restraint in concert with the major increases in provincial supp ort, particularly on the education side, have been to provide minimal increases in some cases and in some cases actual reductions in the total mill rates facing many Manitobans. For example, I understand that residents in five of the twelve school divisions operating within Winnipeg are in this position. In many other cases the mill rate increases will be kept to a minimum.

In addition to the real moderation ach ieved on the mill rate side we are, as all members are aware, facing an extremely tight fiscal situation largely the result of cost-sharing cutbacks by the Federal Government and, more recently, by the estimated $10 million loss in Manitoba tax revenue resulting from the recent March Federal Budget. In the context of the cu rrent situation I su ppose some might be inclined to question the necessity for any property tax credit increase this year. This may be par ticu larly the case for the Of ficial Oppo sition, Mr.

Speaker, which is on record as favouring the abolition of tax credit. Nonetheless, the government has decided that some increase in property tax credit benefits is desirable as part of a continuing program to help Manitobans cope with living costs. Accordingly this year, for the fifth consecutive year, I am pleased to announce a further extension of property tax credits of $25.00 bringing the maximum benefits to $375.00 and the minimum benefits to $225.00.

As in previous years, the benefits are related to ability to pay with the maximum benefits reduced by one percent of taxa ble income until the $225.00 minimum is reached at a gross income level of approximately $20,000 for a family of fou r. Now, for a home assessed at $6,000, Mr. Speaker, the expanded Property Tax Credit Plan will provide benefits equ ivalent to a mill rate reduction ranging from 37.5 mills to 62.5 mills, depending on income. As in previous years, the expanded $225 general minimum credit will be made available to eligible 1855

Thursday, April 14, 1977 resident homeowners on their property tax payments this spring and summer , that is, as soon as they get their tax bill. All such homeowners with incomes under $20,000, tor a family of four, will be entitled to further benefits of up to the new $375 maximum. Those additional benefits, of course, will be claimed on the 1977 income tax returns when they are filed. Any resident homeowners not eligible tor the $225 advance payment, such as tenants, will continue to be able to apply for fu ll benefits through the income tax system.

These increased entitlements will bring the total annual benefits under the Property Tax Credit Plan for 1977 to $98 million. This is an increase of 12 1h percent over the 1976 benefits of $871h million. It also preserves Manitoba's position of providing by far the most generous tax credit system in Canada, with benefits roughly twice as generous on a per capita basis as Ont ario's tax credit system, which is probably the second best in Canada.

Some $45 million of the increased benefits will be delivered almost immediately through direct provincally-financed deductions on the property tax statements issued to resident homeowners this spring and sum mer, and this should prove to be a sub stantial benefit, not only to the homeowners concerned but also to the municipalities which shali, of course, be guar anteed payment of the entire advances by the end of June and therefore help their cash flow and help in their collection of taxes. Thank you very much . MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, we thank the Minister tor the statement. I'm not qu ite sure whether the taxpayers in Manitoba will be very happy with the amount. -(I nterjection)- Well, the Honourable Minister says that he thinks so. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. SPIVAK: I sugge st to him that in introducing this, he should have introduced this as a statement to the Legislature on the minimum 1977 Manitoba Property Tax Credit Plan; that is the minimum amount of money that could be given under this plan, to jus tify its rationale. Mr.

Speaker, one of the problems with the plan is that it is supp osed to have a progressive feature to it. It is really supposed to assist and help the people who require the assistance of government and it is to be directed on a basis of abi lity to pay. But in reality, Mr. Speaker, what really happens is that each year the province contributes directly to the municipality an amount of money which is deducted from the tax bill, which in effect is a direct grant. And what the government has done in this particular situation has increased the grant by $25.00.

In effect it is a pattern of payment to the municipalities which is expressed in the name of the taxpayer but is realistically directly appliable to the municipal tax bill itself. Then in addition to this, Mr. Speaker, we have what is the progressive feature but as I sugge sted over and over again and I sugge st again, in the amount that is brought forward again, would only su pport the position, it is realistically a minimum amount and the progressive feature of this really is a question - a question that can be arg ued and will be argued.

And one of the constant concerns has been whether there is another way, a better way, of dealing with rising escalation of school costs and whether, in fact, even if restraint is exercised we are not going to reach a point where the plan, as it is now perceived, if it was to continue, will get into ridiculous figur es and ridiculous numbers. So to the extent that the taxpayers will receive some benefit from the provincial tax pie, the moneys that are available to them , that I think is something to be at least commented on as something that the taxpayers will be thankful for.

But to sugge st that this has really in any way shifted or in any way affected the direct burden that the real estate taxpayers in this province are having to bear with respect to education costs is wrong, and in the final analysis, if the shift that must have to come in the years to come will be an absorption by the province, by the provincial treasury, of a greater portion of the school tax, so in effect, the little charade that we go through with today which only indicates that budget time is corning close, and that the little charade we go through will not be carried out.

And in effect there will be a real progressive tax measure introduced which will directly affect and hold the escalation of school costs insofar as the real estate owner is concerned in terms of the kind of payment and the abil ity to be able to manage his own affairs, to be able to provide shelter for himself. RETURN S TO OR DER S MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HONOURABLE IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I would like to file Or ders for Return Nos. 13 , 14 , 15 and Orders for Return Nos. 26 and 27. The Clerk has copies to distribute. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Public Works.

HONOURABLE RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I would liket o submi t aReturn to an Order of the House No. 7 by the Honourable Member for Morris. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Tabling of Reports or Ministerial Statements? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. 1856

Thursday, April 14, 1977 ORAL QU ESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Environmental Management. Can he indicate to the House what the present level of Lake Winnipeg is at this particular time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HONOURABLE SIDNEY GREEN (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, I believe it's between 71 1 and 712 but I can't give you the exact level.

I can tell you that the level without regulation in the summe rtime would have been somewhat lower than what it will be under regulation. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister anticipates my sup plementary question. My understanding is that the lake level has dropped rather seriously in the last several months. My question to the Minister is, will the regulatory structu res at the north end of Lake Winnipeg be so operated to assure and maintain a minimum level of Lake Winnipeg and if the Minister has the information, at what level? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is correct.

The regulatory structu res were operated this year in accordance with design, and that is to allow water to run out of the lake during the winter months, the months of Januaryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy the regulatory program will be to retain ' February; that water in Lake Winnipeg during the summer vacation season; that it will be somewhat higher than it would have been under unregulated conditions which, of course, is the desirable features of Lake Winnipeg regulation which were indicated when the program was announced. For the actual level, I can get a predicted level for my honourable friend.

I think that he will understand that it will only be a prediction, for the actual we will have to wait until the events actually take place. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Speaker, my question is fort heHonour able the Minister of Mines and relates to the Shellmouth Reservoir on the Assiniboine. I' m wondering if the Minister can tell the House if his department has undertaken special operating procedures in order to ensure minimum flows to those cities and towns down stream of Shellmouth. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, when we met with the Drought Committee earlier this week it was indicated that all of the water resource fixtur es that are available are being utilized in an overall drought condition to try to deal with drought conditions. As to the actual steps that are being taken with Shellmouth , I'll ha ve them available for my honourable friend within the next few days. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: A suppl ementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder then is the Minister able to give some assurance at this stage that if sub-normal precipitation conditions continue, that minimum flows will be assured for those downstream users? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that is the case. What I can assure him is that if the precipitation levels are such as to cause us the problems that are obviously before us at the present time, that the Shell mouth will be operated in such a way as to deal with those conditions. I believe that what the honourable member said with regard to the minimum close is correct.

But as to the specifics I will have them available in several days. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question also to the Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management. My qu estion is based on the news report indicating that there are extremely high mercury levels found in fish in the Red River from Oslo to the Canadian border as reported by the Department of Health in the State of Minnesota.

My question to the Minister is, does the Canadian Government have a similar standard of detecting mercury content in the fish as they do in the United States or alternately, have they passed a regulation or an Order-in-Council forbidding mercury contaminated fish from entering Canadian waters? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I don't know as the honourable member was seriously saying, is there a regulation that was passed to prevent the fish from swimming into Canadian waters? He was serious. MR.

JORGENSON: Let me clarify it for the Minister in case he missed the first part of the question. The first part of the question was, do the tests that are conducted on fish to determine mercury content, are they similar to that of the Un ited States? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, leaving aside the question of immigration authorities at the sub water levels, I believe that the scientific methods of testing are similar. I believe that there is some understanding as to what levels of mercury content would render fish not acceptable for commercial marketing. I have not read the

article my honourable friend has read, but I will check as to whether we are experiencing similar resu lts with the testing of fish in the Red River insofar as mercury is concerned. I'm not aware of it. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, the question is that the report indicates that there is no reported incidence of mercu ry contamination in fish in Canada. But I wonder if the Minister could also, while 1857

Thursday, April 14, 1977 he is determining the previous question, find out when the last tests were conducted to determine mercury content? MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we'll do that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker; I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Corrections and Rehabilitation, and also if the Attorney-General would listen to the question ' perhaps he could give his response to it as well. I preface the que stion by a short explanation, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Phelps, the Regional Director of Penitentiary Services, Western Region, has made the statement that if a referendum was held in the Town of Selkirk as to whether or not a prison should be located in the town, he thinks that it would go nine to one against the proposed construction of the prison. So my question to the Minister is, in view of the fact of the large scale of opposition in the Town of Selkirk to having a prison constructed within the town limits, would the Minister use the power of his office to try and persuade the federal authorities to put the prison elsewhere? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Corrections. HONOURABLE J.R. {Bud) BOYCE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it would be highly improper if I used the position of the office to try and influence the location of the federal institution one way or the other. Our position has been and will continue to be one of co-operation with the local communities to provide them with the information that they can make up the ir mind. I, by the way, would disag ree with Mr. Phelps assessment that that would be the outcome but nevertheless that's my personal opinion. I have had pe ople approach me from both sides and I' m sorry, Mr.

Speaker, I don't think it is proper for me to try and influence them one way or the other. So I really couldn't accept the import of the member's question that I should use the influence to prejudice either way. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I ask the Minister, Mr. Speaker, it is not a fact, that the Minister is on public record favou ring the prison in the Town of Selkirk. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR.

BOYCE: I believe in a question that was asked of me relative to the location of the facility in Selkirk, I expressed an opinion that it seems to make sense that it be located in that community, other things being equal. One of the locations that was proposed for the exchange of public property, I am also of the personal opinion that it is a little too close to the Mental Hospital but there was a suggestion that it be located further away. But here once again I don't tl")ink that we should try and influence the location of the Instituti on.

I've had representations from various communities, including a resolution from Stuartburn. I notice in the press that The Pas wants it. These are other communities that have indicated an interest, and we have been but an instrument in funnelling these requests to the proper author ities. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Another question for the Minister, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister either formally or informally indicated to the Federal Author ities a recommendation as to where the prison should be located, and will he tell us what that recommendation was? MR. BOYCE: I repeat what I said earlier.

I had expressed an opinion that if things proceeded that they could get the co-operation of the community, that it seemed to make sense that it be located in Selkirk. I have indicated no preference as far as where it should be located as far as the Provincial Government is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage La Prairie. Final qu estion. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, this will be my final question on the su bject but I direct it to the Minister of Health.

Could the Minister state the policy of his department with respect to a proposal that would locate a penitentiary adjacent or near to the Selkirk Mental facility? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HONOURABLE LAURENT L. OESJARDINS,{St. Boniface): Well we have no set policy - it's not every day that this is being done - but I can tell you that as far as the Department of Health, we wish that it was a little fu rther not qu ite that close to the Mental Institution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Due to a study done by Doctor Dean Berg , a cancer researcher who claims that adding fluorides to drinking water causes cancer, can the Minister tell us whether his department is prepared to take another look at fluoridation of drinking water in Manitoba? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think this might be one of the occasions whe1e the members should indicate what kind of doctorate this gentleman has - I don't think he's a medical doctor for what it's worth. I don't think that it's something that will be done provincially.

The Federal Government and the Cancer Society, the medical profession and the dental profession are looking at that, and we're trying to get all the information possible where we are concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. 1858

Thursday, April 14, 1977 MR. L.R. (BUD) SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable the Minister of Urban Affairs, and I would ask him whether he or officials of his department held any meetings this week with officials of the City of Winnipeg related to the decision of the City's Executive Policy Committee, announced today to stay in the Land Banking and Expropriation busi ness? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, a meeting was held yesterday morning with a delegation from the City of Winnipeg.

The matter was discussed, and I wasn't aware of this particular announcement but I' m pleased that as a result of that meeting the City has decided to continue to stay in the expropriation. MR. SHERMAN: A supp lementary, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to ask the Minister whether there will be any opportunity for initiatives by the province, by his department or officials of his department to try to expedite the machinery that's involved and in place in that whole area, and I ask the question, Sir, with reference to a number of residents in Winnipeg, many of them in my own constituency, whose land has been frozen for the last two years? MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the expropriation and the acquisition of land is being handled by the City of Winnipeg because it was at their request that the province participated.

I ag ree with the member that everything should be done to facilitate it, and that was one of the matters discussed that the city would do everything in its power to bring those matters that are not settled to the attention of the Court so the Court can make the necessary jud ication. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HONOURABLE EDWARD SCHREYER,{Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, in further reply to the Honourable Member for River Heights with respect to questions he has asked relative to Polar Gas, I would indicate to him that - though I'm not asking him to accept the figur es - indeed the province is not necessarily accepting these figur es as being definitive but for the information of my honourable friend it is contended by Polar Gas, that by virtue of a difference of 510 miles approximately in the respective routes, that there is an added cost of operation - they contended the order of $40 million per year by virtue of having to pump that extra distance for the qu antum of gas for the pipe, which taken over twenty years, discounting the fact that present value does mean some few hundreds of millions of dollars.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Attorney-General. I would like to ask the Attorney-General if he or any members of his staff will be testifying before the Judicial Committee of the Law Society at its closed hearing this coming Monday, dealing with the Tony Pilutik case? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY, (Selkirk): Certainly I will not be, Mr. Speaker, and I'm not aware of any of my staff giving evidence to the committee.

I will double check though to ascertain whether or not any staff members will be providing information to the committee vis-a-vis the hearing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister, I thank him for his statement. I wonder if he's in a position to indicate the difference per unit mile, that is, the difference in cost per unit mile of building the pipeline in Manitoba, and building it in Ont ario? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm in a position merely of being a conduit for information which we have but which we cannot vouch for the accu racy of, but nontheless for the information of my honourable friend, it is contended that the difference in the capital cost of construction as between the - let's call it the northeastern route or the Long Lac route and the Interlake route - in terms of capital cost, the difference is insignificant but because of the cost of pumpin g additional mileage, and the reason for that is because of the uti lization of existing Trans Canada pipe.

To make a long story short, Sir' extra pumpin g is estimated to resu lt, according the their figur es of $40 million per year in extra operating costs, and they estimate that this will mean something in the order of 10 percent additional cost to the consumer at the receiving end. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister in his position would indicate whether in the computations that were given to him there was an indication of what the reduction in cost would be if it was located in Manitoba if in fact natural gas was to be exported into the Mid-Western part of the United States as part of the proposal for the building of the pipeline itself. MR. SPEAKER: We are getting into a very hypothetical area. The Honourable First Minister. MR.

SCHREYER: Indeed, Sir, and furthermore it is precisely at the National Energy Board that these figur es which can be taken as contentious will be analyzed in the most painstaking way. I would assume that my honourable friend, the Member for River Heights, will either directly or indirectly be wanting to obtain information there and perhaps even maintain a watching brief there of his keen interest in the matter. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. I wonder if he could indicate whether at the 1859

Thursday, April 14, 1977 present time, within the government, there is a capacity to analyze the information that will be furnished or whether it's going to be necessary tor the government to hire consultants to act for them? MR. SCHREYER: I don't dismiss the possibility, Mr. Speaker, that there may be the retaining of consultants, although I'm sure the Member tor Morris would want us to ensure that they are not Texas based.

But, in any event' if it is felt that there is insufficient capacity, not because of lack of competence but because 9f inadequate numbers within the department of my colleague, then it may be necessary to retain MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. Final. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. I wonder if he can explain the basic contradiction in the information that he has presented today with the information presented a few days ago, as to the reasons for the decision to go through Northern Ontar io? MR.

SCH REYER: I indicated to my honourable friend on more than one occasion that in the words of Polar Gas there was a significant cost differential and now I have given him the specific numbers which they have given us. The cost differential is in the order of magnitude, so they contend - the National Energy Board and we assume other Canadians will want to get to the definitive bottom of it - they contend is $40 million per year. So, it is sign ificant. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, I have a qu estion for the Honourable Minister responsible tor Tourism and Recreation. It was indicated by an official of the Provincial Parks that travel restrictions will be implemented in the provincial parks. Can the Minister indicate in what parks travel restrictions will be implemented and when? Can also the Minister indicate what other precautions are being taken at the present time to prevent fires in the parks? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Tou rism and Recreation.

HONOURABLE BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): My department is well aware of the need to take extra precautions in view of the lack of rainfall during the spring season, particu larly in Spruce Woods and the Whiteshell parks. No decision has been made at this point in time as to travel restrictions or any restrictions upon the uti lization of the parks or the park facilities but if need should arise to impose any restrictions well that will be announced in ample time for the users of it. But it is qu ite unlikely that this would have any effect upon the owners of cottages within the Whiteshell area. MR.

PATRICK: A suppl ementary. Is the Minister or his department assessing the situation and does he have extra staff at the present time to monitor how serious the situation is? MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am not quit e sure what the honourable member means, his question with respect to wanting additional staff. But we are certainly keeping a close eye on the situation insofar as the weather conditions are concerned and the degree of fire hazard and the public will be accordingly informed. MR. PATRICK: A supp lementary, Mr. Speaker.

My question to the Minister is: Are the fire towers being manned 24 hours a day and has there been any statement from the Minister to the farmers about burning brush and so on? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I believe that now the honourable member is going beyond the boundaries of Provincial Parks and that question has been asked on two or three occasions over the past week or so and, to the best of my recollection, that question was answered. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor River Heig hts. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance.

I wonder if he can indicate whether the government supp orts the Federal New Democratic Party's request for tax cuts for m idd le and low income earners as a result of the unemployment figur es issued yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the member is asking a question dealing with a national issue at the national level, something that is beyond the jurisdiction of this province and I would not want to answer him as a member of this government in that regard. MR.

SPIVAK: By way of supple mentary, I wonder if the Finance Minister can indicate whether he su pports the proposition of the need for tax cuts for low and middle income people in Manitoba because of the unemployment situation. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, about ten minutes ago I announced a fairly sign ificant tax cut to the people of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Op position. MR. STERLING LYON (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, a qu estion for the First Minister or the Minister of Finance.

We had an indication last week from the First Minister that the Budget would be brought down either Thu rsday or Friday of next week. Without trying to impose on government secrets, are we close enough now to that fateful moment for the Minister to advise the House as to when it will be, Thu rsday or Friday, so that we and all the people in Manitoba can prepare ourselves properly for it? 1860

Thursday, April 14, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't want the Honourable Leader of the Op position to hold his breath that long and therefore I am ple ased to announce that the Bu dget Address will be Friday afternoon. At the request of the Li beral Party I was asked notto have it on Thur sday evening and I am acceding to their request. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Op position. MR. LYON: A supple mentary, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Finance.

In view of the fact that he is taking advice from the Liber al Party as to the time of the Budget, would he mind taking some advice from us as to the content of it? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opp osition feels that common courtesy is taking advice, I am guilty. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct a qu estion to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, and ask him a qu estion from the questions posed by the Member for Assiniboia.

In view of the towers that are set up in the Provincial Parks, I would like to ask the Minister, can he inform the House as to whether these outlook towers are being manned 24 hours a day to take precautions to make sure that if any fires do start that his department is notified? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tou rism and Recreation. MR. HANUSCHA K: Mr. Speaker, I am qu ite confident that whatever precautionary measures ought to be taken are being taken insofar as fire prevention is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

I have a qu estion for the First Minister or perhaps the Minister of Mines and Resources. About a month ago, in a question asking whether there was any intention to meet with municipalities to discuss gu idelines for water use or rationing in the province, I asked the First Minister if the province had taken any steps to call such a meeting and begin discussions with municipalities concerning the use of water as we beg in into the spring and summer season when water use goes up by about 28 percent. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, to answer the qu estion more precisely it would be necessary to know if my honourable friend is referring primarily to urban water users or to water users in rural and town, village Manitoba. With respect to rural Manitoba I am pleased to say that there has been a lot of systematic work being done qu ietly by representatives of the Water Control Branch, the Department of Ag riculture, and that in the context of really qu ite a variety of different alternatives. About all that can be reasonably expected and maybe a little more than that, Sir, is being done.

There have been meetings with locally based people. Now, insofar as the City of Winnipeg , if that is what my honourable friend is referring to, there is no doubt that gradually each year the City of Winnipeg is working itself towards a time when it will have to undertake significant pub lic works, to at least build some water storage cells in the Deacon area. And if that is not done it merely hastens the time when the existing aqueduct will have to be twinned. Of course, they hope and we hope that construction of water cells will postpone for a considerable time any need of twinning a 10 0-mile aqueduct. MR.

AXWORTHY: A supp lementary, Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. In respect to the rural area, the municipalities, has the Provincial Government or the Water Resources Board identified those areas where there may be a shortage of water, particularly in the ground water level, and in those municipalities or settlements where water must be trucked in, to identify any particular problems in those areas and what contingency plans there might be to provide for those if the dry season continues? MR.

SCHREYER: That is precisely what is being done, Sir, and as I've indicated it's not possible to point to any one single dependancy, in terms of method or mechanism. In some cases it is a case of providing for better tankage and storage at the site of one of the 70 or so community wells; other cases it is a matter of putting in in-channel impoundments; in other cases it is a matter or organizing, hopefu lly together with PFRA, for the laying in of two and four-inch pipe, etc. I can assure my honourable friend that's all being done in local liaison.

My colleague, the Minister, may have a detailed report in a few days that goes beyond this. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can take from that qu estion that these are not just contemplated actions but that actions are now being actually initiated and implemented.

Then with respect to the qu estion of overall water use, particularly in the urban areas, does the provincial government, in co-operation with, say, the City of Winnipeg, the City of Brandon, and others, intend to issue any specific gu ideline to consumers of water, concerning uses that should be made and do they intend to develop any plans concerning alternate days for things like, oh sprinkling of grass, and other sort of non-essential water uses? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I assume and I think my honourable friend on reflection will assume, that those kinds of practical common sense considerations the city fathers of Winnipeg and 1861

Thursday, April 14, 1977 Brandon are not unaware. What is helping, by degree at least, solve some of the problem is that the City of Brandon is well along with, as I recall, a $3 million to $4 million watert reatmentfacility and that combined with the flows in the Assiniboine due to the controlled release at the Shellmouth, will I think put Brandon in a position to cope with contingencies later this year.

If I may, while I'm on my feet, Sir, indicate to the Member for Brandon West in reply to his earlier question, some elaboration of my colleag ue's answer, that my understanding is that the reservoir management at Shellmouth shall be such as to provide in the range of 200 to 300 cubic feet per second, which supply will look after Brandon's needs well. My honourable friend, I'm sure, will recall that at its worst the Assiniboine had a low flow of 5 cubic feet per second back in the late Thirties or early Forties. And so the orders of mag nitude, I think, are reassur ing.

And with respect to the Member for Lakeside, my last recollection of the level of Lake Winnipeg was 71 1 %, and as of ten days ago the control gates have been operated so as to start impoundment. Of course, that depends on what there is coming in to impound , and that in tur n is also a function of the - let me give my honourable friend an example.

Dur ing the glorious July and Aug ust days, no clouds in the sky which only Manitoba has, the glorious summer days, cloudless skies, the rate of evaporation and water loss from Lake Winnipeg can be in the order, from evaporation alone, in the order of 30,000 to 40,000 cubic feet per second, and as such is almost breathtaking. And that further complicates the factors involved. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: I'll defer to the member from ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the Honourable Member from Wolseley.

My SLipplenientary question, the obvious one, to the First Minister is how much have we left out of the lake before the impoundment began? And we'll decide that, I supp ose, dur ing those cloudless summer days of July and Aug ust. MR. SCHREYER: Well, yes, Mr. Speaker. I wouldn't pretend otherwise but, again, to help my honourable friend recall a standard of measure on this, that Lake Winnipeg has been as low as 709 and that at a time when precipitation factors were no worse than they are now, arid have been for the past ten months.S So there is, at least, some margin. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Talking about the weather, Mr. Speaker, prompts me to ask a question to the Minister of Tour ism. Wou ld the Minister confirm that tax sup ported newspaper ads of April 11t h regarding Gull Harbour, "whether you choose to snowshoe, cross-country ski," are misleading in that the area may have no snow? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tou rism and Recreation. Order, please. Order' please. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, in the first instance' the ads are not tax su pported.

They are paid for out of the revenues of the operations of the lodge at Hecia Island. Number two, the ad made no specific reference of any particular season of the year, and there are times of the year when one could engage in those particular activities that the honourable member was referring to. And I think that he has lived in Manitoba for some time, he ought to be aware of that. MR. WILSON: I have a supplementary, then.

Could the Minister give us the estimated cost of these, to the taxpayer, of these flat ads each week and could we look forward to receiving up-to-date brochures and rate sheets to help advertise your government resort hotel? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, l'ni sure that the honourable member need not ask for estimated costs. We can give the honourable member a specific cost, if you would file an Order for Return and we can give him the specific figur es.

Or, if he chooses, when the debate of the Estimates of my department come up in this House or in the committee of this House, he could ask that question and obtain a specific answer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister in his capacity as Minister reporting for Manitoba Hydro. Can the Minister indicate whether he has received any direct commun ications from Mr. Gordon Spafford in regards to the charge that the Conservatives used, namely the waste of some $605 million. There is an

article in yesterday's Tribune, and I'm sure the Minister read ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Has he received any communication from Mr. Spafford in this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would reply to the Member for Radisson res ipse loquitor. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. Or der, please. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry, do you have a question? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Continuing Education and 1862

Thursday, April 14, 1977 Manpower, and it relates to a question that I had asked him earlier, Sir, having to do with the status of the ai rcraft maintenance course at Red River College. In view of the fact that the Minister told me some time ago that he wou Id have the information for me on Monday, I wonder if I could ask him now whether he meant last Monday, next Monday, or Saint Swithin's Day? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Continuing Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: I wish to apolog ize to the honourable member that I did not respond to the honourable member's qu estion earlier.

Insofar as the particular course that the honourable member is concerned about, I want to assure him that the course is continuing and those presently enrolled in it will be able to complete it.

Insofar as the future of that course is concerned, that matter is presently under review by my department and, I believe, the involvement of the Department of Labour, and as well as the Advisory Committee consisting of representatives of government and employers of graduates of that particular course, in order to determine the best type of course that should be offered to train the type of personnel that are requir ed to service aircraft, and so forth.

And that is presently under way and no decision has been made at this time as to the nature of the type of a course, or whatever variation, if any, may come about in the time to come. It's still under review. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his information. I would ask him by way of supp lementary whether he and his department have entertained representations or consultation from the aircraft industry itself. There have been various spokesmen of the industry who have had comments on the condition of the course. MR.

HANUSCHAK: As I have indicated there is an advisory committee attached to my department which has representation from the aircraft industry. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co-operative Development. HONOURABLE RENE TOUPIN (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer a question posed of me yesterday by the Member for Mor ris in regard to an advertisement appearing in the Winnipeg Free Press April 11 th and sponsored and hopefu lly paid for by Parks Davis, Auctioneer, of Texas.

I would like to say that the advertisement pertaining to the auction made no reference to the Public Uti lities Board as such . It made no reference to the Securities Commission as such, was not licensed under either. The intent of the advertisement I am told, after checking, was meant to invite Manitoba Publi c Uti lities and Winnipeg area contractors in and around Winnipeg to participate in the auction. They are not licensed by the Public Uti lities and/or the Securities Commission - presumably would be licensed under the mun icipality, being the City of Winnipeg.

That is now being checked and once confirmed I will inform the honourable members. In regard to the possible reciprocal arrangement between Texas and the City of Winnipeg or any other municipality in the province, that is equally being checked. To our knowledge there is not such a reciprocal arrangement in force. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Po int Doug las. MR. DONALD MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Minister of Ag riculture but because of his absence I would like to direct my question to the First Minister.

In the liability concerns expressed by my honourable friend, the Member for Lakes ide, is it correct that all the subsid ized black beans were grown in Tory constituencies? · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYE R: Mr. Speaker, I don't know where the black beans have been grown. It was an experimental program. My honourable friend is sug gesting that beans have been grown only in Tory constituencies; I don't think that was deliberate. I would rather have thought that in the constituency represented by my honourable friend, the Member for Lakeside, it was more a case of ...

I' d better not say it, Sir. MR. MALINOWSKI: A suppl ementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could we deduce from that that the free enterprise Tories do not mind feeding those god less Cub ans so long as they get subsidized for doing so. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. HANSARD COR RECT ION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Northern Affa irs. HONOURABLE RONALD McBRYDE (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, could I just make a correction in yesterday's Hansard, Page 18 43. I was developing a positive example of a leader in Northern Manitoba and it reads Chief Gordon Lawson - it should read Chief Gordon Lath lin. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Industry and Commerce. HONOURABLE LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, the other day the Honourable Member from Minnedosa asked me a qu estion with regard to the distillery at Minnedosa, whether we were working with any groups -(I nterjection)- I shall not comment. At any rate, I have a very short answer and the answer is yes. And you asked how many inquiries we had' and the answer is we've had two inquiries and we're working with both. 1863

Thursday, April 14, 1977 ORD ERS OF THE DAY SECOND RE ADINGS MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Hous e Lead er. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, maybe there will be more inquiries now. I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that we proceed with the Second Reading, Bill No. 54 and then with the Adjourned Debates on Second Reading, starting with Bill No. 5. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Bill No. 54. The Honourable Minister for Corrections. BILL {N O. 54) -AN ACT TO AMEND THE INTOXICATED PERSONS DETENTION ACT. MR. BOYCE presented Bill No. 54 -An Act to amend The Intoxicated Persons Detention Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR.

BOYCE: Mr. Speaker I intend to be very brief in introducing this bill. It is more of a technical nature than it is a significant change. It was found in the operation of this particular Act which is being amended that certain difficulties arose, the main one being that there is really no legislative authority for dealing with people in an institution other than a lockup or a correctional institution per se, so the intent of this particular amendment is to make it possible to have the Intoxicated Persons Detention Act include facilities other than those I mentioned.

In the detoxification units it will be defined in a way in which will allow for people to be dealt with in these facilities as they exist in the province or as we are able to add them throughout the province or find it necessary to add them. Dou btless my colleagues in the House are aware of some of the things we have done in this regard. For example, in The Pas, in co-operation with St.

Anthony's Hospital Board, the detoxification unit is operated as a component of the hospital itself, administratively and in an accounting way and yet it is staffed by people who are familiar with dealing with people suffering from this kind of a problem. So that the necessity of getting some kind of legislative protection for the people that work within the system is another nuance of this bill in that you will see that one of the clauses holds that no action need proceed against those people who act in goodwill in performing their duty.

So by and large that is the pu rport of this modest amendment to the Intoxicated Persons Detention Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BAN MAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Morris, that debate be adjour ned. MOTION presented and carried. ADJ OURNED DE BATES -SECOND RE AD ING MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 5. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 22. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 28. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Bill No. 33. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 44. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Stand. BILL {NO. 45)-AN ACT TO AMEND THE VACATIONS WITH PAY ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 45. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a few observations to make on Bill 45,

An Act to amend the Vacations with Pay Act. There are two principles involved and I have no arg ument. I believe that Bill 45 provides that when an employee is entitled to receive a three weeks vacation but has terminated before that time, he gets six percent instead of fou r and it's only reasonable because without this amendment somebody that is entitled to three weeks holiday, in actual fact would be only getting the four percent which would be two weeks. So, he would be certainly short changed and so I have no 1864

Thursday, April 14, 1977 arg ument and I agree with the principle because he is entitled to the six percent under our present legislation. What the Minister is doing is clarifying and I have no argum ent. The other point provides that a firm becoming insolvent will be deemed to be holding vacation pay in trust for employees and I'm sure that the Minister remembers we've had considerable amount of debate in the House on prior occasions about this same problem and again I hoped that this could be accomplished. I'm not so sure that it can, perhaps the Minister can explain it more to me.

I'm sure the House is aware of my position as far as vacation pay is concerned. I have taken action in this House fighting for the three weeks vacation with pay and it even took the present Minister some three or tour years to be convinced that he should move in that direction and I know when he was on this side of the House he said that that would happen pretty qu ickly but when he got on that side, it took some time. It took something liketour years or ... I'm not so sure if it happened in the first term or beginning of the second term.

So it was accomplished but the point that I'm trying to make is that sometimes things don't happen as qu ick as they can as it is for the sometimes opposition members to say that it should happen. So, Mr. Speaker, I would indicate that both principles in the bill are good and I supp ort the changes but, at the same time, perhaps there are other areas that maybe the Minister has overlooked and I would like to point out to him. I believe there are also traps in the legislation that innocent employees get caught in and perhaps sometimes do not receive their entitlement that they should.

And again, I would like to point out the definition of a year of service, in my opinion, under the legislation is somewhat restrictive. An employee must work 95 percent of the regular work hours of the year to be counted as having a year's service. Admittedly, vacation time and up to 30 days of sick time must be verified by the physician . That's the way the legislation is at the present time. The point that I am trying to make, it still means that someone with an extended illness or an injury, Mr.

Speaker, may not get any vacation with pay and it is an area that has been brought to my attention - if an employee is a malingerer, perhaps he should be dismissed and that settles that question but, on the other hand, if an employee is say sick over the 30-day period and perhaps on compensation, I still feel that he should be entitled to vacation with pay. I am sure the Minister has had those representations to him as well. So my concerns are, why a 30-day maximum, Mr. Speaker? Why a 30-day maximum for verified sickness by a physician and perhaps other autho rized leave of sickness as well.

My other point would be, why allow only five percent of the regu lar hou rs to be missed due to sickness and what happens is the entire vacat ion pay can be lost, or vacation time can be lost. So there is a concern that has been brought to my attention under

Section 6(2) of the present legislation. I hope the Minister will have an opportunity to take a look at it. I think that handling of the time off due to on-the-job accidents perhaps is somewhat unfair, in my opinion. I think if the worker has such an accident, his time and compensation, it says, " may be considered" and I think that perhaps a very small amendment "shall be considered" would perhaps correct this. So I have some concerns. I think that if the worker is on compensation, then it shou ld be considered as he is working. I don't know if the Minister is catching what I am trying to tell him.

If the worker is on compensation, in my opinion, it should be considered as he is working. So there are concerns. Someone with a month off with sickness and is recovering because of an on-the-job accident automatically loses his vacation. I'm saying, extend it more than 30 days. If he has sick leave verified by a doctor of th irty days and he has to take another fifteen days or a month to recover, then he wou Id lose his vacation comp letely, he would get his tour percent for the time that he has worked and that is my concern. I wou Id hope that under

Section 6(2) it should be "shall" - if the word were used "shall be entitled to his vacation" perhaps the Minister would have better legislation. On the other two points, I concur and I believe that they are good changes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Labo ur will be closing debate. HONOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY {Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I always appreciate listening to my honourable friend, the Member for Assiniboia, particularly when he is in a mood to reflect on statements that he has made in the past in respect of, not only labour legislation, but other legislation as well.

He is so right when he says that while in opposition, I made many propositions that are ju st being accepted or are now accepted in legislation as the result of the change of positions between the previous government and this government.

And while I accept his admonition that sometimes these things take a little longer than we anticipated to bring to fru ition, I am sure that my honourable friend, the Member for Assiniboia, may be in a position to either reintroduce in some future Hansard his remarks about sickness insurance and basically what he is talking about is the loss of income, in this case vacations with pay, as the result of illness.

Maybe my honourable friend will have an opportunity before too long to give supp ort to a measure that may provide tor universal sickness insu rance to all wage earners in the Province of Manitoba and I can jus t visual ize that while I may not be in the Assembly and possibly my honourable friend will be, I can visual ize, Mr. Speaker, the possibility of his standing up and saying, "Well I told the Honourable the Minister of Lab our, Russ Paulley, back in 1977 that more consideration should be given to the plight of the worker insofar as vacation with pay who happens to be ill or happens to be 1865

Thursday, April 14, 1977 on workers' compensation." And' of course, my honourable friend will recognize that I am criticized from time to time particu larly by the employers' group because of the provisions under Workers' Compensation that while workers are on compensation, it is conceivable that he is really receiving more in wages than he does when he is on the job due to the fact of the non-taxable income and the likes of that.

So I just say to my honourable friend, I appreciate the points that he has raised and I also appreciate the fact that it appears to me that he is giving general supp ort to the contents of the bill that is before us at the present time. As far as may and shall, those two words, Mr. Speaker, in legislation, I am sure that you will agree with me that this has been the sub ject matter of many long debates as to what wording should be used and I will take a look at it.

He also raises the que stion, a similar qu estion, at least I think he implied almost the same point raised by the Honourable Member for Fort Ga rry insofar as priority of claim for vacations with pay. When I introduced the bill, Mr.

Speaker, I drew to the attention of the House or at least I thought I did - if I didn't, I do so now- that ju st within the last two orthr eeweeks, similar legislation to which I am now presenting for the consideration of this Assembly was before a court in the Province of Saskatchewan insofar as the status of an employee and the court ruled that that took precedence over the position - the payment of the vacations with pay took precedent over other creditors insofar as bankruptcy is concerned. I also indicated , I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that this has been one of my objectives with the federal authority that under the provision of the Bankru ptcy Act, the payment of wages to an employee should take precedence over other creditors. When we talk of the question of vacation with pay and the pay aspect of it, I don't think that there is any difference really between the actual payment and payment of wages for vacation pu rposes, only earned, because of the input in the worker and I cannot see any rea sons why there should be any differentiation in the payment of wages and vacation with pay.

Now the Honourable Member for Fort Garry raised the point dealing with preferred creditors and as I was reading Hansard which came on our desks a few moments ago, I read the statement of the contribution of the Member for Fort Garry and among other sentences, he says, "I assume that the Minister is not sugges ting that we are going to be legislating that vacation pay would take a preferential position over the claims of those preferred creditors." I sugge st to my honourable friend that it is only fitting and proper that the wages, be they vacation with pay wages or wages actually earned on the job, should take precedence over other preferred creditors.

We argued this long and hard in this House when we were dealing with the matter of the Payment of Wages Act and we ag reed -a t least I believe that the majority agreed -w ith the principle that I am extolling that the wage earners income should have preference above all other creditors in bankruptcy and this is a position, Mr.

Speaker, that I believe that I have been able to convince the Federal Legis lators that in the amendments to the Bankrupt cy Act which has taken too darn long to finalize, that that is the position that the payment of wages - and I would include vacation wages in that category - should take precedence over the priorities which now prevail and the first three priorities, if memory serves me correctly are federal taxes, provincial taxes, municipal taxes. I am of the opinion that the preference should be for the wage earner above those three and other so-called preferred creditors.

So, I say to my honourable friend, I make no apologies, that my intention and the intention of the government to rec ognize that the wages, vacation wages and other wages take preference and precedence over other creditors in bankruptcy. If my honourable friend is desirous of making changes when we get to the committee, of course, Mr. Speaker, that is his right and the right of his party. I ju st indicate that as far as I am concerned and as far as the government is concerned, this is consistent with the position we have taken insofar as claims in bankruptcy as far as the worker is concerned.

I thank the two members for their contributions and I suggest to them that there is no real requirement for much amending of this particular bill in committee but in closing, again I say to my honourable friends, that is their right and I would want to attempt to deprive them of that right, Mr. Speaker. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 57. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Stand please, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the 1866

Thursday, April 14 , 1977 Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair for Northern Affai rs and the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell in the Ch air for Public Works. 1867

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MANITOBA Thursday, April 14, 1977 CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUP PLY ESTIMATES - PUBLIC WO RKS MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Mr. Harry Graham: We have a quorum, the Committee will come to order. Resolution 101 (a) (1}-pass. Resolution 101 (a) (2} . The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. Yesterday he told us he had four persons employed in this particu lar category and he indicated the types of persons that were employed there and so on. Would he tell us what the $9,400 in Other Expenditures is spent on please? MR.

DOE RN: Well, this is a small amount , basically $5,500 for printing and stationery and then it is all in bits and pieces, postage, autos, publ ications, travelling, miscellaneous. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. The $9,400 is the administrative costs for the four persons involved with this division, right? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. STEEN: That's fine. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, there was a question asked yesterday for some details on the Snowdon Building on Henderson Hig hway, or what used to be the Snowdon Building.

There are some 21,000 squar e feet being leased and the basic cost that we are paying to the owner is $1.45 a square foot, which is really almost a warehousing price, or is a warehousing price. Our operating cost total is $2.95 a square foot. It is about $1.45 basic plus $1.50 operating, to $2.95. Period of lease five years and option to renew two years. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. Was the Minister referring to the Elmwood properties that were under discussion yesterday? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, since we are talking about leased properties and the Minister brough t it up again ...

Yesterday the Minister provided us with a detailed report of the properties of 5,000 square footage and over, the Department of Public Works lease from various leasing agencies and companies, and was kind enough to indicate which departments are using that space. In a conversation I had with his Assistant Deputy Minister, I asked if this listing would-include the properties in the St.

James area, particula rly a lot of what I would consider commercial store-front type operations and so on, and the Assistant Deputy Minister gave me the impression that my request of two evenings ago was for District No. 1, within the District No. 1,. If the Minister will recall the other evening, when I asked for this information, I said that I was not particularly interested in a piece of property, for example, in the Town of Carman, Morden, or so and so. Can the Minister tell me, within the City of Winnipeg boundaries, how many districts they have?

I sort of was under the assumption the other day that all leased property in the City of Winnipeg would have been perhaps under one district and when I received this information - And I might say, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, I appreciate the material and I thank the Minister and I thank his people for preparing it as rapidly as they did do - I didn't know the other evening that there could have been and there may have been other districts within the Greater Winnipeg area. One area of concern that I did have was the St. James-Dublin industrial park area.

It is my understanding that some of that information is not within this and I would therefore ask the Minister if it is possible that that information be suppl ied at his department's convenience. MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): The Honourable Minister. A MEMBER: I've got a fighting chance now Jim that you're back there. Harry Graham wouldn't let any questions go by. MR.

DOE RN: This list we gave you, District No. 1, this is almost 100 percent District No. 1, the only exception is - and almost 100 percent Winnipeg - just the Red River Community College is District No. 2, plus, I gu ess, some areas near the perimeter. For all intents and purposes it is District No. 1. MR. STEEN: So therefore, Mr. Chairman, District No. 1 is virtually the City of Winnipeg, other than - for lack of a better term at this time - on-campus sites like the Red River Commu nity College and so on, eh? MR. DOERN: Or jai ls, etc. MR. STEEN: Other public institutions. MR. DOERN: Right. MR.

STEEN: Yes, okay that's fine then. I just wondered whether, in my request the other night, that perhaps there was more than one district in the Winnipeg area and that maybe I didn't ask for all the information that I thought I should have asked for. That's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 101 (a) (2)-pass; (a)-pass. Resolution 101 (

b) Central Provincial Garage (a)

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. Can the Minister indicate to the 1868

Thursday, April 14, 1977 Committee the numb ers of persons that are employed under this salary bracket? MR. DOERN: Fifty-one and that is unchanged from last year. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. The 51 persons, are they primarily employed in the Central Garage or are some of the 51 persons employed in say, Dau phin and other Highway Department garages and so on? Can you indicate to us, are they the central pool people only or are they in other areas? MR. DOERN: All in Winnipeg. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister.

Under this item, if a person with a government car, who could be outside of the City of Winnipeg area, has a problem with the car, can they go to say the Highways' garage in Dauphin and have that car repaired? MR. DOERN: Right. MR. STEEN: Are those persons who are working on that car under the Public Works budget or the Highways budget? MR. DOERN: They would be under Hig hways primarily. MR. STEEN: Is there a transfer slip that is transferred as to man hours, parts and so on, between departments? MR. DOERN: Yes, a charge-back. MR. STEEN: There is a charge-back.

The 51 persons that you speak of, they are all in the Central Garage. MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. STEEN: And in the Central Garage, of the 2,287 vehicles that are listed in your report, the 2,287 vehicles primarily, are they serviced through the Central Garage? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. STEEN: But a vehicle, for example, Mr. Minister, that might be in the hands of a department employee of another department or your department, in Flin Flon for example, and needs repair, does that vehicle come to Winnipeg for repair or is it shopped out in Flin Flon or done by government people in Flin Flon? MR.

DOERN: The sequence is that it would be handled by Highways and secondly commercial. Under extreme conditions it might be brought to Winnipeg but that obviously wouldn't make good sense. MR. STEEN: If you have a government garage - and I know there is one in Dauphin, am I correct, Mr. Minister, for Highways? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. STEEN: If a car used by say, the Public Health nurse, is in need of repair in the Dauphin area, is that repaired in the Dauphin Hig hways Branch (a) , or (b} , done outside of government services, or (c) , brought to Winnip eg? MR.

DOE RN: Again, the preference is to do it with in the Highways' garage. However, let's say they are busy or occupied, then in that case it would be sent into a private garage in town. So if we can do it in-house we do, if not it is done commercially. It certainly wou ldn't be brought to Winnipeg, again, unless it is some extreme case because it would jus t cost too much money. · MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, some months ago the Minister made announcements of major government expansions for facilities, and one was a new government garage.

I would ask the Minister now, the 51 persons working in the Central Provincial Garage, is the provincial garage too small to handle the 51 persons and the fleet of cars? MR. DOE RN: Well, without question. I think that the efficiency ofthe Central Provincial Garage is hampered because of the present facilities. That facility was built, I don't know how many years ago, it must be at least thirty or fourty years old. And I don't knowwhat the fleetwas then but, you know, it has grown and, as a result, people are literally bumping into each other or they are unable to, you know, do their job properly.

So what we intend to do is keep that facility for very minimal purposes, mainly say gas, oil and grease. I assume washing will still be donedowntown. And the result is that we will primarily do the servicing on Logan Avenue. Now I could give you an example. Twenty-five years ago, 1952, there were 491 vehicles and there has ju st been a continuous growth and consequently you are now dealing with a fleet that's four to five times as great, in twenty-five years. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. In his opinion how many vehiclesdoes hef eelthat the Central Garage can handle in this day and age? MR.

DOERN: In the new building? MR. STEEN: No. MR. DOERN: The present one? MR. STEEN: The existing garage. MR. DOERN: I'd have to have my su perintendent here. He isn't here. MR. STEEN: Well the reason I asked that question, Mr. Chairman, is that the Minister just said that in 1952 there was approximately 450 vehicles; today we have 2,287 vehicles. I gather the reason why the Minister has chosen the dating of 1952 is because perhaps that was the day the garage was bu ilt. 1869

Thursday, April 14, 1917 MR. DOERN: No. My information goes back to 1935; the year I was born. Mft STEEN: Well, when was the garage bu ilt? MR. DOERN: The year I was born, 1935. I'm old enough to be your dad. And in 1935 there were 12 9 vehicles but I'll just give you a couple of fig ures that might be of interest to you. In '58 when the Roblin government came in, there were 668 vehicles. By '69 when they left office, there were 1, 450 vehicles, so it more than doub led. MR. STEEN: I must speak to my friend, Walter Weir, for letting such extravagance take place during his tenure.

And from '69 to today, it's 2,2 87. Right? MR. DOERN: 2,287 to '76; 2,366 to '77. There are a number of ways of operating fleets, and one way is to simply pay people so much money to operatetheir bwn cars. Now I think that's done in Alberta is it, where they have no fleet? Now, they've gone to a fleet. Well, for the last few years, and God knows how long, they paid people to operate their own vehicles. And at some point there is a break even point when it's sort of worthwhile to continue to pay your employees money to operate their own car, and then there's a ...

At that other side of the point, it's in your best interests to provide vehicle. And I just forget what our break-even point is. How many thousand miles we feel it's in our ... At 12 ,000. So we feel definitely that it's worthwhile to pay up to 12 ,000, and then after a person is driving mor e than 12 ,000 that we're better off, considering all costs (operating, maintenance, amortization, etc.) to provide a vehicle. And don't forget that a lot of our vehicles are pooled and shared. So it's not a case of, you know, all we have to do is wipe out the fleet, have no cars, and ju st pay people.

I submi t that would cost us more money. MR. STEEN: I would agree with the Minister that wiping out the fleet of cars would not be the answer to the problem. The pu rpose of this particular item in the Estimates is to find out whether we're getting our dollar value for the provincial garage and the fleet of cars. I don't think anyone at this table would argue with the Minister, or differ with the Minister, on whether we should have government cars or should n't have government cars.

The pu rpose is to get the maximum use of government cars and have them being used by particular persons within the civil service that are using cars to a maximum degree and therefore need them. I would be the last person that wou ld ever say that we should contract out to the employees and have the employees using their own cars.

This morning the Chairman will recall that we were discussing Public Insur ance Corporation Estimates, and I would think that it would be rather bad business for the provincial government, at any time, to have employees who would be using their car for four and five and six thousand miles per year, using their own vehicles on the job constantly. I don't think that would be a wise move. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to provide the committee with some interesting statistics. If we take the 1975-76 fiscal year, there were some 48,790,000 miles driven; so let's say 49 million miles.

If we use the government fleet at 12 cents am ile it would have cost us, and did cost us, $5,850,000.00. If we had paid employees to use their cars at 16 cents a mile, which would be an average cost varying from 19 to 11 cents depending on mileage, but if we paid them to use their cars it would have cost $7.8 million, which would be up $2 million. If we used leased vehicles at 25 cents a mile, based on our experience, including fuel and minor damages, it would have cost us $1 2.2 million.

So we take this to indicate that there is a saving of some $4 million realized using a government fleet over leasing and subsid izing employees for the use of their vehicles. Four million dollars over paying employees and I gu ess about a saving of $6.3 million compared to using our own fleet. So I think it's clearly demonstrated that it's in our best interest to provide a fleet. But bear in mind, as well, that we db, at the same time, pay employees for mileage. You know' there is also an amount of money paid to employees for using their own car.

And, as one of my aides tells me, Alberta didn't have a government fleet, now they have gone into it. They must obviously feel it's economic to operate a government fleet. MR. STEEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member from Minnedosa says that the Province of Alberta take it from the Heritage fund. I just say that they have good common sense in that province. MR. DOERN: And plenty of oil. MR. STEEN: And plenty of oil and fuel. Mr. Chairman, to the Minister.

Can the Minister tell us, the members of the committee, and perhaps he has done this last year - and as I said to him early in our meeting during his Estimates, I was not present for his Estimates last year - but can he tell us the rate charged to an employee for personal mileage, and what is the normal procedure for a government employee that has a government car who perhaps uses it for personal use? MR. DOERN: These rates are set by Management Committee of Cabinet and it starts getting pretty complicated. How much is it again - $1 3.65 bi-weekly, that is what we all pay and a surcharge for personal mileage. MR.

STEEN: What is the surcharge, Mr. Minister? MR. DOERN: Thirteen to eighteen cents a mile. 1870

Thursday, April 14, 1977 MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. Can the Minister tell us what he personally would have paid in the last twelve months for the use of a government car tor personal use? MR. DOERN: Well, I drive very little. My car is about twenty months old and I think that I have 16 ,000 miles, so I am averag ing 800 miles a month . But, I haven't paid any surcharges that I am aware of. MR. STEEN: Mr. Minister, when does the su rcharge come into effect and when does it go out of effect? You pay the basic $13.65 bi-weekly and then when does the surcharge come in? MR.

DOERN: The old system was $20.00 bi-weekly; now we are into a new system which is ju st being phased in, which is $1 3.65 bi-weekly plus a declaration of all mileage, I gu ess, for personal basis. You have to figu re out the number of miles to your home and that is your base. There is a minimum, I think, of five miles so everybody gets at least five miles one way. This has been negotiated with the MGE A apparently to their satisfaction.

Essentially what we are doing now is you are charged so much, you are given the amount of miles to your home and I gue ss whatever is on business is on business and everything over and above that is to be recorded and paid for. So we are going to now have a lot of people with clipboards recording their mileage. MR. STEEN: Mr. Minister, surely the going to and from home, in the case of yourself, is not considered personal mileage, is it? MR. DOERN: No. MR. STEEN: I had always been of the opinion, Mr.

Minister, that you were always on call to the people of Manitoba and that as you travel back and forth, home or through your constituency, to these buildings, that you are working for the people of Manitoba. MR. DOERN: The $1 3.65 covers that, which is obviously part of your business. MR. STEEN: I would say, Mr. Chairman, that if that were the case then I would recommend that the Minister move back to the Lincoln Towers so that he wouldn't be charged for all that mileage between his constituency and the bui ldings. I don't think that any Minister should pay ... MR.

DOERN: I have to tell you that, on that point that you are making, I agree with you. The Member for Crescentwood makes a point about the application to Ministers and I agree with him entirely. I think that the system should be revised in regard to Ministers of the Crown. But the other

part is to the satisfaction of the MG EA. They have asked fort h is, hammered it out in negotiations and they find it satisfactory. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. I can understand why the Manitoba Government Employees Association would have such an arrangement with the government, a bi-weekly charge and then a mileage charge, and I don't quarrel with this, I think it is perhaps a good idea. Getting back to the Minister himself, has the Minister in the last twelve months ever had to pay a mileage charge? He said he drives very few miles. MR.

DOERN: I would have to ask my secretary, I ju st don't know, I may have but I ju st really don't recall. But bear in mind, as I say, my mileage was extremely low. As I say, I am averaging 200 miles ... Well, as I say, I drove 16 ,000 miles in about twenty months so I am driving 800 a month, say 17 5 miles a week. · MR. STEEN: You are likely costing the government a lot of money in battery charges and recharges. Mr. Minister, the Annual Report says that 47 ,OOO-plus miles were driven last year by government vehicles. MR. DOERN: Forty-seven million. MR. STEEN: An average of 20,000 . . . MR.

DOERN: Forty seven million. MR. STEEN: Fo rty seven million, my apology. An average of 20,000 miles per vehicle. There was a day that the government used to trade their vehicles every two years and they used to feel that it was economical, with the tax savings and the tax write-offs and so on, and the savings on maintenance and so on, that automatically, at the appr oximate period of 24 months, it was advisable to trade in a vehicle. MR. DOERN: Right. MR. STEEN: What does the Minister and his department feel is the economical factor today? MR.

DOERN: We have been, for the last number of years, on a three year, 60,000 mile trade. But , because of our Restraint Program , we have now gone, for the next year at least, to a four year, 80,000 mile and there is a feeling that we will be saving on capital cost but we are going to have to weigh the saving on trades and capital cost against the maintenance. I am not totally certain of how that will come out. We are optimistic but we will only know when we have had the experience. So we are extending by one year and 20,000 miles the present practice. MR. STEEN: Therefore, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister and his department are of the opinion that persons using the vehicles are caring for them perhaps better than ever before and that with proper maintenance through the Provincial Garage and other places, that you can extend the life of a 1871

Thursday, April 14, 1977 vehicle, on average, to four years or 80,000 miles now. MR. DOERN: That is our hope. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, it is not uncommon and I have this referred to me often by the rural members of my particu lar political persuasion and the Honourable Member from Pembina drives a car that is nine years old and has 16 0,000 miles on it, and he tells me that is dollar value.

I know we have heard many speeches in the Leg islature from the Honourable Member from Pembina and we know how conservative he is and we have seen, and I have witnessed him practicing conservatism in the use and operation of that vehicle. MR. DOERN: I didn't realize he had traded in his Model T. MR. STEEN: But the Honourable Member from Minnedosa says that the particular Member from Pembina has been retreaded personally so he is okay. Mr. Chairman' to the Minister. I would like to have the Minister tell the members of the Committee about the electric cars and I know that we are about to close.

If he wishes to leave this to this evening, I have a number of questions about the electric cars. Would he like to start on that item now or would he prefer to delay it until later? MR. DOE RN: It is one that I have a considerable interest and enthus iasm for but I think perhaps we should adjourn and then we could start out on the right note tonight. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, maybe we could sneak in a short que stion from another member of the Committee on any other item other than the electric cars. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member from Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr.

Chairman, my questions were on the electric cars and we haven't qu ite got to that object yet. The Minister mentioned mileage and cost per mile- is he including the capital cost of purchasing the vehicles for the fleet in that? Is that worked into the cost per mile? MR. DOERN: Yes. MR. BLAKE: I assumed that it would be and I ju st wanted to clarify that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOERN: All costs, all overhead costs and capital costs are worked . MR. BLAKE: Twelve cents a mile is including the capital costs compared with leased costs. MR. DOERN: Right. MR. BLAKE: I assumed that is true.

My questions, Mr. Chairman, were to do with the electric cars and we cou Id maybe cover that this evening when we reopen again. I wou Id I ike the Minister to maybe have at that time - he might want to take note of it - any costs involved under Salaries, under the next item in the Central Garage, any costs involved in training drivers to drive electric cars and to service electric cars if there is any. I don't want to belabour that point, it is time for Committee to rise and we will go into that this evening when we reconvene. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

In accordance with our Rule 19(2) , I am interrupting the proceedings for Private Members' Hour, to return to the Chair at 8:00 p.m. this evening. 1872

THE LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY of MAN ITOBA Thursday, April 14, 1977 ESTIMATES - NOR THERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMA N, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): I refer all the members to Page 48 of their Estimates Book. Resolution 94(a) (1). The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs has twenty minutes. HONOURABLE RONALD McBRYDE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

When I was speaking in historic terms the other day in the history of many hundreds of years ago, the Member for Lakeside remarked, "This was all prior to 1969, you gu ys." So I thought I had better briefly ju st summ arize what the situation was prior to 1969 and bring it within the context of my other remarks. I think the very basic policy, the very basic attitude of the Conservative Government of the day, Mr. Chairman, was to just ignore the remote communities, just not to bother with them and not to spend too much time or effort in relation to them.

I think that was the basic position except perhaps when there was an outside need that the gov ernment of the day felt. For example, the commun ities of Easterville and Moose Lake and Grand Rapids were not ignored because the province and Manitoba Hydro wanted to build a hydro dam in that area that would affect those communities. I think that reflects another attitude in that the commun ities affected by that Hydro development didn't get a very good deal and didn't get a very reasonable deal from Manitoba Hydro or from the Province of Manitoba.

In fact, the effect on Easterville especially was a very drastic effect with the relocation of the commun ity and some disintegration of the social structure or the community structure itself which is now, in more recent years, being overcome and the community is beginning to work together and to develop and to have some say in determining what happens to it. But the effect at that time was pretty drastic and pretty serious.

There was some efforts by the previous government when John Legasse brought in the report on the situation of Indian and Metis people in Manitoba and there was a community development program developed by the Conservative Government with federal cost-sharing 10 0 percent in the cases that related to Treaty Indians under that program.

Then the next step on the part of the previous government was the Commissioner of Northern Affa irs and I think that the present Leader of the Opposition, Sir, was the first one to serve in that capacity and basic ally, the Commissioner of Northern Affairs at that time as I explained, was a municipal role but basically it worked to keep control over those areas that really had no local government and it developed very qu ickly, very quickly into a colonial administration of remote commun ities.

I think that basically the approach used by people dealing with the communities then was to go into the commun ity, do something and then say, "Look what the Conservatives, or look what Premier Roblin or look what Premier Weir is doing for you. Isn't this good? You should support him." I think that was basically the approach of the Commissioner. I was very distu rbed to see that approach certainly after I was elected, when one of these same people came in and made the very same speech, except he said Premier Schreyer in the place of Premier Weir. But that was the basic type of approach that was used.

I think a good example, when communities did beg in to question the role of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs at that time and the role of the colonial system that was in place, I can remember the case of Cross Lake when they wanted to send a delegate to a meeting in Winnipeg to the, at that time, Indian and Metis conferences in Winnipeg, and the community got together and elected a representative to send to Winnipeg to this meeting.

One of the things the representative was supposed to do was to comment upon how the commun ity felt about the operation of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs in their community, and the community raised the money to be able to send the person to the meeting. The officials working in the Commissioner of Northern Affa irs at that time then went to the community, found someone who was very positive towards them - I think someone who had been in their employ - and paid his way to Winnipeg.

So they weren'tthat interested in the community's, as a whole, feeling, but they were interested in protecting their own selves in their own colonial type of administration. I think another thing that happened prior to 1969 that still remains in the minds of no.rthern people, or people in remote commun ities, was the resig nation of the then Conservative ML A, the late Gordon Beard.

The basic reason given for his resignation was the inaction of the Conservative Government, the inability of the Conservatives to do anything constructive with the very many serious problems that he perceived in northern Manitoba and in remote northern Manitoba. So this feeling about the Conservative Government and the Commissioner of Northern Affairs of the day was there in 1969, and I think some commun ities - ones that were beginning to grow and develop - reflected this come election time. I think specifically of Norway House.

Wabowden or Moose Lake or Easterville where they overwhelmingly decided that they'd had enough of the colonial system in their communities and decided the only positive way to do something was to bring about a change in government. So, Mr. Chairman, it has taken us the eight years, I think, in our work with the non -treaty 1873

Thursday, April 14, 1977 communities to beg in to help them to get to the stage where they are involved in solving their own problems. I think that the process is moving very well, although the process itself is very slow. Whenever I hear, thoug h, the Conservative Leader I always get the feeling that he wants to go back to before 1969, that he thinks that that kind of situation was the desirable situation and that that's where he would like to retu rn us to, should he have the opportunity to form a government. Mr.

Chairman, I don't think that there's anyone on the other side that really understands the remote areas or really understands the kinds of problems and the kinds of things that have to happen in remote areas. I know that on this side of the House there is the Premier and the Minister of Renewable Resources, the Member for Thompson, the Member for Churchill, the Member for Ste. Rose who have had considerable experience and considerable knowledge in dealing with those communities and have a considerable understanding of the kinds of things that have to happen.

But I don't even see that the candidates that have been selected by the Conservatives have any understanding of the remote areas or the ... -{I nterjection)- Well, I'm waiting anxiously to see how the desperate search of the Conservative Party turns out in my own constituency. Maybe, hopefu lly, some of my remarks will help them to understand a bit better, so I would like to get back to where I left off yesterday.

Of course yesterday I was talking about - when I concluded the structu res for economic development and I think that the important part when I talked about the structu res is that the commun ity has to be involved in choosing the kind of economic development structur e that's going to work for them. They have to select one that fits the situation of their particular community because each community is qu ite a bit different.

Each commun ity has different groups within it; each commu nity has different factions; each community has a different political reality; some different backgrounds and a different sort of psychological outlook on wha t the development means to them. So that that community has to be the one to look over the options. As I explained yesterday I think that the present government is the only one that says ... My party is the only one that says, 'There are a number of options in the way you go about economic development and you can take your pick of those options"'

whereas the Liberal and Conservatives tend to say, "There is only one option and if you don't like that one then you're out of luck." Of course economic development, as I described it yesterday or started to describe it, is one part of an overall package in terms of employment creation and people being able to go to work. I would ju st like to retrace qu ickly the other part of that approach or the other part of that package.

One of the things we have to be doing - and I think we've been talking about this since 1969 and there's been considerable action in this area - is to reinforce, to rebuild, to make viable the traditional occupations in remote northern Manitoba. To make sure that the fishery is a viable industry, and we've had considerable discussion of that particular topic in recent days. To make sure that the trapping is a viable or worthwhile industry and to strengthen these activities so that people have the opportun ity for employment in them .

I can remember saying in one of my very early speeches in the House that if we created CFI in those days at The Pas and created 500 jobs in The Pas area, it could be, if we didn't manage to control the pollution from that plant, that we would affect thirty fishermen in The Pas, or forty at Moose Lake, or sixty at Cedar Lake at Easterville, or forty at Grand Rapids. So in the creation of some jobs we might lose other jobs, and I think we have to be qu ite carefu l to protect the fishing and trapping industries and to help those grow and develop.

Of course, within the Department of Northern Affairs the special ARDA Program is one of the ways of giving assistance to those particular ventures. Of course, there are a number of other programs within the Resources Department such as the Wild Fur Program.

Another thing that has to be done is to assist people to take advantage of existing opportunities, so that they can take advantage of employment in the mines at Thompson, if that's their wish, so they can take advantage of working for ManFor if they wish, but to take the existing jobs in urban communities if that is the desire of people to move and try and take advantage of those opportunities.

In this regard we have the Tawow Project at Leaf Rapids and the Relocation Program in agreement with the Metis Federation at Thompson, and we are negotiating right now with the Hud son Bay Mining and Smelting Company at Flin Flan to instituting a package of relocation assistance in that area.

Another thing we have to work on is the - or another variation I gu ess of that is the opportun ity to do the sub-work - you have a large complex like ManFor in The Pas and the mining industry at Thompson, is there some way that the community people can be part of that operation but not the regular employees at that operation? I think this is where Moose Lake loggers, for examp le, comes in or the Mistik Creek Logg ing operation which provide pulpwood to Man For on a contract basis.

But the majority of people working on those operations are from the local native community and the management is a little bit different, so they are able to work more effectively. For some reason, or for many reasons - and I don't think we know them all - a lot of the people from remote commun ities have not been able to make it, have dropped out of those industries. People, for example, that were trained at the Cranbe rry Portage Logg ing operation would work at 1874

Thursday, April 14 , 1977 Man For tor awhile and then go back to their own commun ity. The turnover rate of these people was no worse than the tu rnover rate of pulp cutters that came in from Quebec. But the tact is that the others went back or went on to another pulp cutting operation; the people in northern Manitoba went back to their own commun ity and became unemp loyed. A lot of them came back, tor example, to the Cranberry Portage Loggers training operation and asked tor employment again.

They had been good producers but tor some reason in the camps that existed at Man For, they weren't able to survive in that situation. So right now we have Mistik Creek Loggers which is basically an employing body. The training function has been completed and we are providing employment to people through that operation which hopefu lly will be at least a break-even operation to provide employment and to contract with ManFor to provide pulpwood.

I gu ess that this particu lar option is one that Farley Mowat, our famous consultant we had a few years, talks about in his book on Siberia, that a lot of the original residents in Russia provide a support system to the other industries and have viable economic activity doing that.

The other thing that has to be done and is being done is that whenever there is other works in the area, when there are public works or private works in relation to the remote commun ities such as schools, such as roads, or winter roads, or housing, when these types of activities are going on, that we have to make sure that the people in the local communities take advantage of those opportunities.

It's no longer acceptab le that an outside contractor come in to do something in those communities, bring in his whole crew from outside and then leave again, so that the people only observe the work going on rather than take

part in the work going on. The other method is to make sure that they take advantage of some of the existing local services. There are some stores in remote commun ities that have been bought out by residents of the remote communities or by the communities themselves, and there are some new stores that have gone into competition with the existing stores in the remote commun ities. There are a number of tourist camps that have been developed to provide services in that area.

At Granville Lake they have tu rned over a small cottage and put bunks in it so that the civil servants coming in there would pay them so much tor staying over and they cou ld have a source of revenue through that activity. The other method is the new operations that are viable, or can be viable within a short time. I think that there's a lot of these in the area of lumbering and pulp cutting and fence posts, sawmilling.

One of the examples that my department hasn't been very directly involved in, a pretty successful small operation, is the Bloodvein Foundation, which has a sawmill which cuts logs and produces logs and employs people in their own community. They also contract out and they also take advantage of, or they have been involved in the construction of winter roads and construction of the airstrip in that community and made themselves a pretty viable operation using local labour. I think that the prefab housing in a number of areas is another example of this type of economic development or employment creation.

Another method is, of course, the providing of sub sidy to continuing operations that are not going to be money-makers. But when you examine the total cost of that operation it is in fact in the benefit of the people of Manitoba to subsid ize that kind of operation. The kind of analysis that is done- and I'm not an economist, Mr. Chairman - the cost benefit analysis is done by the worfd bank and other international agencies when they're aiding under-developed areas, to use a cost benefit analysis type of study. Or another way is just to examine the provincial costs.

What does it cost the people of Manitoba it that development doesn't take place in terms of welfare and other kinds of payments that have to go in there? And what do we get back it the development does take place in terms of income tax and other benefits and whether or not the cost benefit analysis shows that it's worthwhile in some remote commun ities to actually sub sidize a continuing operation?

The final option in terms of - yes, that would fit in with what the Member for Churchill calls the "welfare to projects and not to people" approach, which he uses to sum marize that kind of activity, where you make the project go by giving a sub sidy instead of having people dependent upon welfare. The other option that is open is the make-work project. I know that the Conservative M.P. for Church i 11 ti I ls the newspapers of the north just about every week with a sum mary of all the make-work projects that are coming on stream.

I su ppose he does this because that's the only thing he has any effect on, is those projects, in terms of his role as an M.P. But those projects, although they are the least desirable of the options that I've outlined, are certainly better than people being in receipt of welfare or welfare payments. So when there is no other option I think the make-work is still a worthwhile or a necessary aspect of the development. MR. CHAIR MAN: We will now proceed to the second item 94(a)

(2) Salaries and Wages. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, just by way of a brief response to the Minister's somewhat lengthy dissertation of what is taking place in the north that he started yesterday and concluded today, let me at least ag ree with him to this point, that when he says that even prior to the white man's first arrival in the north, that things weren't all that rosy for many of the isolated commun ities then, and obviously from what he is telling us, they still aren't that today. 1875

Thursday, April 14, 1977 I will pass over the more partisan political comments that he makes about what great changes have in fact been effected and taken place during the past eight years under his and this government's administration as compared to a previous ten-year period. I can only comment that the situation for remote commun ities and northern people really didn't change all that much in, say for instance, that uninterrupted 20-year period of socialist government that the sistering Province of Saskatchewan enjoyed, or indeed in Alberta.

I think the problems of northern communities and more specifically the problems of our native northern commun ities have been with us tor a long time and will continue to be with us for a long time and deserve the kind of attention that I think - not because of the change and color of politics of any particular government from time to time - simply more so because of an awareness that we have towards the development of all our people, of all our citizens within the province.

And of course the means wherewith to do things are, I would indicate to the Honourable Minister, considerably different when you consider the scale of budg ets that we now have as a result of reasonably buoyant and prosperous times. When the budget that consis ted of $80 million for the total provincial budg et - which was the budget in 1958, for instance, the last Li beral administration in this province - obviously just in straight dollar terms the kind of things that the Minister was talking about simply weren't physically conceivable to engage into or enter into tor the lack of simple dollars. Really, Mr.

Chairman, what I want to ask the Minister and which I re ally didn't get is that we're dealing with his Estimates; we're dealing with what in effect amounts to in this department alone, an average of $19 0 spent on every man, woman and child in the north. Just this department is spending that money. That, Mr. Chairman, is equivalent for instance to the annual flow of dollars that was required to introduce and implement the FRED ARDA Interlake Program , developmental program that is ju st now concluding in its 10-year operation in the Interlake.

What I missed from the Minister - in fact I don't think the Minister mentioned it in his introductions - is his concepts and his direction and specific goals and objects that are contained, for instance, in the North lands Agreement. We have heard about the North lands Agreement for some time. We know that there obviously is some dissatisfaction among northerners themselves as to the nature of that Agreement or how it was arrived at. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Chairman, I can recall the boycotting of certain signing ceremonies at the time of that meeting by local leaders and local people within that area. Mr.

Chairman, I note and I have the broken-down figur es for this department, there has been in many instances, a pu lling back or some reduction in many of his requests for programs for specific departments of the Northern Affairs portfolio. It's not my intention, Mr. Chairman.to engage in a question and answer period with the Minister during the course of his Estimates. I would like to, and I would invite other members of the House to do likewise, to concern ourselves perhaps a bit more with the Minister's concept about what he wants to do in the North, and what in fact he is achieving in the North.

I quest ion, and will be questioning seriously and severely, what looks pretty good on paper, what sounds pretty good when you are s_peaking about it - but what in fact, is happening? I would like to indicate to the Minister that I will be asking him specifically the concern that I think that you hear throughout the north, and that is notwithstanding the fact, Mr. Chairman, that as the Minister noted, this government has enjoyed a somewhat unique position in the past eight years.

All northern seats are held by members that are part of the Government caucus, and as such one would expect a very major influence and major impact that the nor th should feel as a result of that kind of representation. Mr. Chairman, certainly I can't sugge st or fail to recognize that there has been a sub stantial increase in money dedicated to the north and to the Northern Affai rs generally. Those are facts that cannot be argued with or that cannot be disputed. But, Mr.

Chairman, what can also not be disput ed is that throug hout the north the concept, the feeling, the belief, that so many northern residents have, and have expressed to us - and yes, they do speak to us. I would caution the Minister, particularly the Minister personally, not to talk about who can and who cannot speak for the north I assume that his particular routes don't go that far into the north as such, and I would hesitate to sugge st that geography prevents any member from at any time carrying out his responsibilities that he has been assigned to or given from time to time. Butth rougho ut the north, Mr.

Chairman, there is an awareness that extra dollars are being spent, there is an awareness of extra people being concerned about the northern interests and welfare of northern commun ities, but the most common complaint surely is that so much of it seems to benefit the southern bureaucrat, the southern government person that is sent up, very often with the expanded facilities of our airport; that come in and out of communities with increasing numbers, and certainly these salaries and these costs within this particular department reflect the very thing that I'm talking about; that while we are talking about an expenditure of some 14 millions of dollars here in Northern Affairs - how much of that - to what extent does that percolate down to the local level, to the actual projects within the commun itiies, and how much of it is simply carried back out in the pockets of southern bur eaucrats and government 1876

Thursday, April 14 , 1977 employees, study groups, or consultants. Well, Mr. Chairman, those are just some brief comments that I bring to the Minister's attention at this time. I believe that there will have to be a real serious questioning of the fir direction of some of the programs, and I will be asking the Minister his views or his approval or lack of approval of certain kinds of specific projects that have been undertaken in the north .. I recognize, Mr.

Chairman, that in some of these instances the Minister will be prone to sugge st to me that it's either a matter of federal ju risdiction as is the case of the rapidly deteriorating mess the Northern Fisheries industry is in. I suggest to you that when I wish to raise and ta lk to the Minister about the desirability of the kind of development such as Thu nderbird Lodge, and the manner in which it were carried out, that he will sugge st to me that that is a federal jurisd iction involving in many instances substantive federal dollars.

I would sugg est that when he talks about the North lands Agreement that he will, like other Ministers before him have sugge sted to me - and it distu rbs me greatly that they have indicated - and I refer specifically to comments made by his colleague, the Minister of Renewable Resources, while we were dealing with his Estimates, that the impression left, in fact the statements made, that in essence Manitoba is represented through its Ministers in dealing with Northern Affairs and in carrying out the programs under the Northlands Agreement have virtua lly abandoned any hope of carrying out Manitoba priorities of assisting on inputs in terms of the direction of the various programs that the Northlands Agreement encompasses.

I can quote from some particular statements that were made several weeks ago by the Minister of Renewable Resources which reinforces that - he says for instance on Page 794 in Hansard that "we are somewhat at the mercy of the OREE officials in the sense that they have the dollars, and we are trying to negotiate with them for the things that we believe are priorities." In other instances he indicates the very weak kind of position that Manitoba seems to have left for itself in carrying out and establishing the long term projects, the long term goals, and the priorities of that program. Mr.

Chairman, I recognize that this isn't the item that we should be discussing it on; the Minister may wish to indicate to committee members, under which particular

section of the Estimates he would like the Northlands Agreement discussed. It does come up in different areas .. I, at least for my part, don't particu larly wish to worry about or to talk about it in its individual specifics - I would like to engage in a serious discussion with the Minister as to where the North lands Agreement is at at the moment. We have never had placed before this Legislature any hard and specific information as to what the North lands Agreement covers, and we certainly haven't been told specifically as to what the goals and objectives of that agreement are. Mr.

Chairman, partly because of experience, I have to make references to my immediate past knowledge and information as to how a developmental agreement of that nature worked in another circumstance.

I refer to the agreement that was sig ned with the same federal authorities into the Interlake country, where we had at least very clearly established goals, very clearly set out objectives, in most instances painstakingly arrived at by two or three years of necessary work at the local level, and I find that so much of this kind of work, this kind of spadework that had to be done is absent in the formulation of the Northlands Agreement. . Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of this government cannot say they have not been provided the ample time to do it - they have been government for the past eight years, and my suggestion to the Minister is, if he feels that the agreements that he is working under with the federal authorities are not to his liking or if he feels that the OREE officials or the federal authorities are too often establishing priorities for us, then Sir, I say it's a reflection on this Minister, and a reflection on the government's inability to cope with a senior or the Ottawa ad ministration.

The fact that in many instances, Ottawa or the federal ju risdiction is putting in more dollars doesn't buy with me either, because again I refer to the Interlake program - in many of those programs, it was 60, 70 percent federal funding, but with the province very clearly having its hands on the programs and deciding what programs, what projects would be undertaken, where, and when. Well, Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister could in a brief response indicate to us under which particular program, whether it is under Item 2 of the Estimates Special Programs or at some other particular stage we can discuss it.

I supp ose right now the first item does indicate that we are under General Information. We are talking about providing the general policy direction program for development co-ordination supp ort, but if the Minister would want it on another occasion, then fine, we can do it at that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage La Pr airie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, ju st a few words in response to the Minister's opening statement.

I wonder if, as we go through item by item, if he could give us a breakdown, especially when it comes to Salaries and Wages, and that is in nearly every item - if he could tell us how many are in each sub-department or unit, and how many of those live in the north and how many live in the south. I think most of Canada is qu ite resentful of the fact that the vast majority of Civil Service jobs and senior jobs are centered in the Ottawa -Hull area, and for many many years various politicians at both levels of government, provincial and federal would say that there should be some 1877

Thursday, April 14, 1977 decentralization of government departments. And just in this past year it finally did happen. The announcement was made the Department of Veterans' Affairs were being moved in its entirety to Prince Edward Island. Now I'm sur e that will do a great deal for the economy of that great province, it's always been a job prob lem there.

I think there have been various statements made by Federal Cabinet Ministers that there is hope to "push" if that's the term, the bureaucracy with which they have to work, to do some more decentralizing, of taking departments completely out of the Capital and putting them in another part of the country.

Now we have the uniqu e opportu nity here to do the same thing right in our own province, that it should be conceivable that a Department of Northern Affairs should be located in its entirety in the north, not having what we have going on now - where on a Monday morning, the airplanes to Thompson, Lynn Lake and other places are jammed with Civil Servants ... Friday night the same thing' coming back to Winnipeg.

I'm sure my honourable friend, the Member for Churchill will perhaps support this idea within his own caucus, that we have a chance here in Manitoba to take some of the Civil Service employment completely out of Winnipeg and put it in the north where it belongs. Also, I'd like the Minister to tell us his hiring policies, when he's hiring people for the department - what evidence is there that there is a definite effort made to hire northerners to work in the north?

Because even in the urban areas of of the north, like Thompson and Lynn Lake, there's a great deal of job changing - people coming from southern Manitoba or some other part of Canada, going up to Thompson and a year later they don't like it and they leave. They may not like the climate or they may not like the completely different environment.

So I wonder ifthe Minister could also tell us what is the rate of job turnover in the department because of this, where southern people were hired, and admittedly many of them will have to be hired because they have probably more qual ifications when it comes to some technical field, that there must be a certain number of these people hired. So, I'd like the Minister as he goes through his department here, when it comes to Salaries and Wages, tell us how many, and how many are located in the north and how many are located south of the 53rd parallel. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR.

McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the Member for Portage la Prairie for raising those particular points, because I think that within any government in Canada' Federal or Provincial, that the Provincial Department of Northern Affairs in Manitoba has done more than anyone else in terms of both decentralization of staff and in hiring northern staff within the department. I have an immediate breakdown of field staff - I'll get a breakdown of all staff, as we proceed

Section by Section, but maybe I could just quic kly go over the

summary of the field staff of the Department of Northern Affairs. Within the Northern Development Corps for example' there are 17 located in Thompson; 20 in The Pas; 5 in Chur chill; 13 in Leaf Rapids; 9 in Norway House. And that's the field staff, that's located only in those communities. In the Extension Services: there are 9 in Thompson; 7 in The Pas; 3 in Churchill; 8 in Dauphin; 5 in Selkirk-and there are none of those field staff in those areas located anywhere else. In the Commun ity Services Section, or the Local Government Development Section, there are 7 in Thompson; 4 in The Pas;7 in Dau phin; 6 in Selkirk, and 14 in the other isolated remote communities. In the Tr aining

Section of the department there are 3 in Thompson; one in The Pas; one in Dauphin and one in Selkirk. And There are two ways that decentralization came about; one is that existing staff was required to move north, and this was done at some hardship to some, and some were already located in the north. As Minister of Northern Affairs, I th ink the only

section that I wasn't successful in motivating the people to get excited about moving north was in Air Division, and now we don't have it any more, so I don't have that poor a record in my books. There are some technical fields though where we have to bring in outside people and I think of our Engineering Services Division, where if you go in there where there are engineers and engineering aid, there are a number of northern people in training in those positions. The staff that is already trained though it's like a little United Nations - there are people from all over the world in that particu lar operation.

So that the department, I think, is the most decentralized of any in Canada, and it was a deliberate effort on our part to do that. The member mentioned whether there would be Civil Servants on the planes Monday morning and coming back to Winnipeg Friday night.

There are unfortunately, Civil Servants on Friday night flying from Winnipeg up north, because there are still a lot of decisions made in the central system, and we have to get our staff ... well like today for example, I didn't bring in the ADMs or the the heads of the various sections from my Estimates because they are located all over the north and they wou Id have had to make a special trip into Winnipeg for the presentation of the Estimates.

So we have a bit of a problem in the other way that there are people moving in and out of Winnipeg from northern points because a lot of decisions, a lot of activities take place within Winnipeg. The program of hiring northerners, there are a number of steps that have been taken and I think again we have done more than any other department of any government in Canada that I am aware of. 1878

Thursday, April 14 , 1977 We started with a Native Advisory Comm ittee of native people within the department with them meeting directly with myself and saying, "Here are the various ways that we can increase northerners within the Department of Northern Affairs." Of course, we already had a number of people in already so we were able to draw upon them as a resource to do that.

One of their recommendations was a native employment or native personnel officer which we do have in place and one of his jobs is to ensure that all the advertising or bul leting of positions are one easily available to native people in northern Manitoba so that they are well aware of the competitions that come up. I think that what happens is that as a

section o

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-39a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 39a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a54de9f45e17f87d749c58663686657a1d94b63f

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).