Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 7B (25th Legislature, 1st Session)

25-1-7b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE AS.SEMBLY OF l>'lANITOBA 8:00 o'clock Friday, October 31st, 1958, Opening prayer by Mr. Sneaker. Presenting Petitions Keading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Renorts by Standing and Select Committees Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills Orders of the Day MR. R. SEABORN (Wel lington): Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to point out one or two errors in the Hansard of October the 29th.

At the outset, I might say that I am probably responsible in some measure for some of the changes that occurred in the Hansard, because after all it was my maiden speech, but as the changes do in.some respect change the serise of some of the sen tences, I would beg to bring them to your attention at this time. On page 24, in the second naragraph, it should r'ead "Mr.

Sneaker,· one of the greates·t socialist. 1 s in England once said: that the dominant issue of the twentieth century 1§. socialism". and further down about 11 lines from the bottom of the page of page 24 , it should read: "In a large modern community the public cannot own property directly as it is only in the most ludicrous sense that the 180 million Russians own the Russian railway; or the 50 million Britishers own the public - (pardon me) - own the British coal mines, when the Attlee Government was in power".

And over on page 25 , Sir, about nine lines from the 'bottom, I said: "I would like to suggest, Sir, that the Conservatives be lieve with the. C. C. F. Party that there is much that is' evil and unjust in our social order ". And here is where the change is Sir: "But we believe that the big and hazy" (not the big and easy) projects of the socialist party of the C .C . F. would bring to us not betterment, but confusion and impoverishment. I thank you f�r your kindness. �ffi. R. W. BEND (Rock wood-Iberville): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to draw to the attention of the House that sitting in the Sneaker's gallery is the 85 year old mother of the Honourable Member from Radisson. She has come down here to not only see that her son says the right thing, .but that he does the right thing. �R. L. STINSON (Leader of the C. C. F. ): ��. Speaker, I should like to welcome the mother of our honourable friend to the gallery, and say to her that her son always says and does the right thing. 1

MR. SPEAKER : Co mm ittee of the Who le Hous e. HONOURABLE GUR NEY EVA NS ( Mi nist er of Mi nes an d Na tural Resources) : Mr. Sp eaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Ho nour able the Attorney-General that Mr. Sp eaker, do now leave the Ch ai r, and the House resolve itsel f into a Com m ittee to consider th e fol lo wi ng Bil ls: No. 4,

An Act to ame nd the Mu nicip al Act ; No . 5,

An Act to ame nd The Co mpan ies Act ; No. 6,

An Act to ame nd the Ci vil Service Supera nnuation Act ; No . 7,

An Act for the relief of Denis Beaudry; No . 12,

An Act to autho rize the ma king of agre emer�ts between the Go vernme nt of Can ada, th e Go vernment of Man itob a and Mu nicip ali ties , for the purpos e of in creasing em pl oyme nt of person s in the wi nter . Mr. Sp eaker pu t the qu estion , and aft er a vo ice vote declared th e mot ion carried. W(. SPE AKER: Will the Ho nourab le Mem ber for St . Ma tth ews ple ase take the Ch air . DR . W.G . MARTIN ( St. �atth ews ) : Bill No. 4,

An Act to ame nd The Mu ni cip al Act.

Section 1, Cl ause ( e ) , Sub-clause ( i ) , Sub clause { ii ) ••••• MH .• EVANS : . JVlr. Ch airm an, I thin k I should begi ri by ap olo gi z in g to the Co �ittee , I undertoo k this mor ning to see that copies of ame ndme nt s to this Bill and No . 5, were pr ovided to the Mem bers before we met in the Co mm ittee of the Whole . I negl ected to do that and I off er my ap olog ies . How ever, the on e ame ndwent that I am about to pro po se is a sim ple mat ter and I hope that the Mem bers wi ll not have diffi culty in fol lowi ng it . I'd like to mo ve, JVw.

Ch ai rma n, that in pl ace of ( ii ) as prin ted in the Bi ll, the follo wi ng be substitut ed: Where a gra nt exceeds an amount that is eq ual to the amount that woul d be rais ed by a rate of on e mi ll on the do llar on the taxable nrop erty in the mu nici pa lit y , the ma king of the grant receives the assent of the resi dent ratepayers in the nanner prov ided in

Part 5, wi th respe ct to by-laws that require th e assent of ratepayers under th at part . The eff ect of that, of cours e, is to .require that where the amou nt to be donated to these develop ment corp oratio ns exceeds one mill on th e taxable prop erties, that it is subje ct to a vot e of th e ratenay e rs, as suggested by my ho nourable frien d fr om Flin Flon • . MR. F.L. JOBIN (Flin Flon ) : ..•••..•.. the Mi ni ster is fin e and dandy, and fol lowi ng furt her to what I sai d this mo rni ng, I know that it wi ll happen that on occasion there wi ll not be ti me to give the ame ndme nts to us .

I'd sug gest that some time during the Session ,at least af ter th e Bill is pass ed, that these ame nd me nts be ma de av ail able, for the same reason that I gave this morni ng, and if that could be don e it wou ld be fi ne. Bill No. 4. was read SACtio n by secti on, clause by clause and passed . 2

Mi'-. CHAIRMAN: Bill No. 5,

An Act to amend The Companies Act.

Section 1 of the Bill (Passed) ••• l05(a) ••• MR. EVANS: ••••• as amended I think, lYlr. Chairman, in line 19, the fourth word "private" has been crossed out. Bill No. 5 was read

section by section, clause by cJa use, and passed. lYlR. CHA IRMAN: Bill No. 6,

An Act to amend The Civil Service Superannuation Act. Bill No. 6 was read,

section by section, clause by clause, and passed. 1Y1R. CHAIR!vlAN: Bill No. 7,

An Act for the Relief of Denis Beaudry. Bill No. 7 was read

section by section, clause by clause, and passed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill No. 12 ,

An Act to authorize the making of agreements between the Government of Canada, the Government of Manitoba and Municipalities, for the purpose of increasing em ployment of persons in winter. Bill No. 12 was read

section by section, clause by clause. MR. CHAIRMAN: Clause (

c) sub-clause (

i) As amended, adding the word "clearing" following between fencing and trimming. HONOURABLE JOHN THOMPSON: (Minister of' Labor): I move that the following be added as subsection (5) of the Bill: "Where a

schedule under The Fair Wage Act would, except for

Section 31 of that Act, apply to a person who has been provided employment under this Act, that

schedule shall not withstanding

Section 31 of the Fair Wage Act, apply to that person and to the employer of that person." This clause respects the Fair Wage

schedule which was agreed upon in special Committee this morning. / M.�. R. PAULLEY ( Radisson)� Mr. Chairman, I wonder if you would be kind enough to explain

Section 31 of the Act. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman,

Section 31 of the Act refers to exemption from The Fair Wage Act, the municipal employees and government employees. M"q_• STINSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a comment on the.inclusion of this clause. I think it demonstrates the im portance of having public hearing, at which time representations ca,n be made. This morning a representative of the Winnipeg and District Labour Council appeared and urged that this be included in the Act, and that was done very quickly. And I think, Sir, it also demonstrates the fact that things move more quickly when 3

there is a minority government. MR. EVANS: It depends on the minority. HONOURA BLE DUFF ROBLIN (Premier): Well that1s an interesting comment -- perhaps I should take some

part in the discussion. I · quite agree with my honourable friend as to the value of public hearings -- I'm not aware that anyone in this Chamber anywhere has any doubts on that score. As for things moving very quickly, they'd move a lot more quickly if my honourable friend and his friend would revert to the proper position in Opposition. M�. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I take it the Honourable the First Minister means that W3 •.•ouldn 1t have any arguments or dis...;. ·cussions if that was the case. MR. ROBLIN: No, I just want to get rid of the limpets • . 1 MR. STINSON: Mr.

Chairman, I1ve been insulted by experts, and I can take anything that my honourable friend may say. ��. ROBLIN: Oh, I'm an easy fellow to get along with. I use nothing but the best advisors. MR. STINSON: \ivell, in this case his advisor i's the editor of the Winnipeg Free Pre�s. MR. ROBLIN: I'm doubtful of that, Sir. I'm hoping that you'll take his advice on this particular point. MR. CHAIRMAN: Subsection (3 ) as amended. It was amended this morning in Committee. A.MEMBER: What is the amendment then M'!.". Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: ••• Well here, that in "by a favourable vote of three...;.quarters of the Members thereof, that was instead of a unanimous vote; and the other amending clause was: Following the Minister of Municipal Affairs, with the approval of the Treasury Board. A MEMBER: Is there not an amendment to subsection (2) "Where the •••• does not exceed the percentage allowed in The Municipal Act11? That's to take care of those municipalities that a.re now under the Public Utility Board. MR. THOMPSON: on this morning. MR. ROBLIN: No, there was no amendment proposed or voted • •.•••• discussion, and I don 1 t think it does.

Balance of Bill No. 12 read to

Section 9 and passed. �R. D.L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition): .Mr. Chairman, - 4

I note that there is some two suggested amendments here, but the ·one doesn't appear to me to be the one that was agreed to in Committee this morning. Have you an .:tmendment in the Bill before you, Mr. Chairman. '·· MR\ THOMPSON; Mr. Chairman, if I may refer to the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition. There was no amendment on t!lB.t section" this morning. As I recall, the amendment was defeated in Committee. MR.

CAlvlPBELL: The amendment was defeated -- there 1 s an amendment moved on one of the sections that we have now passed on the same subject, but I'm quite clear and I remember that on this question of the Minister that the amendment carried •••• • MR. ROBLIN: ury Board. MR. CAMPBELL: MR. CHAIRMAN: The one that carried was the one on the Treas- That's right. •••• This amendment was defeated. MR. CAMPBELL: I believe that 1 s correct� V/ell now, if it was defeated, it was the one that you proposed a little while ago that was in the Bill, and that one was carried. This.one was de feated on a vote.

Well, Itm not going to go over all the argu ments that I used in the Committee this-morning, because after all, the Committee is a Commit·�c;e of all the Members of the House, and it1s a little different from one ••• MR. ROBLIN: ••••• would it not be better to allow the Honourable Minister to •••• MR. CAMPBELL: Yes •• • I'm sorry. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, I move that

Section 9 of the Bill be amended as follows: That the words 'the Lieutenant Governor...,in-Cou ncil or,' be added after the word "intent" in the second line, subsection (1 ), and that the following subsection be added as subsection (2) of

Section 9 - If regulations made under subsection (1 ) are of a legislative nature they shall be made by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, but if they are of' an adminis trative nature, they may be made by the Minister. .And further, that subsections (2) and (3) as printed in the Bill. will be re printed as subsections (3) and (4) . .I think, Mr. Chairman, that these amendments speak for themselves. MR. haps the line his trative, it. � R. TEILLET (St.

Boniface): •••• I was wondering, per- Minister mi.�ht ··just, .take just a minute or two to out own thinking on this division of legislative and adminis- so that we might get a clear picture of his thinking on 11/JR. THOMPSON: ¥w. Chairman, the intent of the amendment is 5

simply to try and assure that anything which pertains to po licy or has the characteristic of a legislative amendment, shall be approved by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. For example, under this Bill a matter such as the formula which involves the financial share of the Province, might be considered to be a matter of policy, and in my opinion, would come under a legis lative regulation. But there could be several administrative regulations, such as the type of form necessary, the type of ap plication for a project, those routine administrative matters could be approved by the Minister himself. M.�.

CHAIRVJAN: There 1 s one other point here in connection with No. 1, and that is that it should begin with subsection (3): "Then for the purpose of carrying out". • ••••••• Right at the beginning of 9 •••••••· Yes, it was suggested by Legislative Council it would be best to begin with those words ••••••• Yes. MR. STINSON: A happy compromise. The silence on my right here indicates that. MR. CAMPB ELL: I wasn't going to remain silent, Mr. Chair man. I was going to say the same thing that the Honourable the Leader of the C. C. F. Party has said.

This time I'm in ccmplete agreement with him and I think it is quite a reasonable and happy compromise. Like my honourable friend, I'd rather have had my own way exactly, but I thirik this is a fair and reasonable com promise. :M.R. CHAIRJviAN:. section? MR. CAMPBELL: We're agreed subsection (2) as the new Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN:

Section 2 is now 3 ••• subsection (3) , (4) , (

a) and (b);

section 9 of the Bill passed.

Section 10 of the · Bill. MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Unfortunately I wasn't able to be ••.•• to the Committee •.••••• I would like to ask three questions. One is, when the Bill is passed will the Department start working on it right away, or wait until the winter months, which is January. No. 2. If a municipality refuses to co-operate and there is an unemployment situation there, will the Government or the Department still do what 1 s possible for that municipality? No. 3.

If there's no work available and the unemploymentinsurance is exhausted, is there any :-:>rogram by the Government to assist financially, or otherwise, those who are unemoloyed during the same period? lJfi(. THOMPSON: Mr. Chairm'ln, in answer to the Honourable Member from Inkster, the answer to the first question is Yes, we will proceed immediately with the execution of thi_s plan. Question 2. If a municipality refuses to co-operate and doesn't apply to come under the plan, I'm afraid that we have no authority to 6

./ enter that municipa lity and prooose tha.t they entertain a certain project. The onus oT applying rests :,vith the municipality. Number J. If no work or emoloymen� is available and_the insur ance is exhausted, h:�ve we -any other :-)lan, \11.7as that the question? No, we have no other plan, other th1.n social welfare reiulations which have been in force for some time. IVL.'Z. CHAIRM/\.N:

Section 10 of the Bill • • . . • t\e.3.d

section by

section and oass�d ••.•.••.• Will the Commit tee rise and report? Jvl.H .. Vv.C. MILLER (Rhineland): Before the Committee rises and re::1orts, and while we're in this more or less informal at mosphere, I note that the Minist er of Mines and datural Resources, and also the Minister of Agriculture, undertook to inform the Members of the Commit tee as to the content of the proposed, any proposed amendments, and I was just won dering whether the Minister of Education intends to follow that example. HONOUR\.BLE STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education): Mr.

Chairman, we'll have our amendments ready for Co rnniittee meeting Ivionday morning at 10 o'clock • MR. MILLER: ••..• ·and we will have them before the Commit- tee considers the Bill? MR. McLEAN: Yes •.•.• the first thinrs the Committee meets. MR. MILLER: Fine. After a voice vote the Co mmittee rose and reported. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General, that Bill No. 5,

An Act to amend The Companies Act, be now read a third t ime and passed. After a vo ice vote, Mr. Sp�aker declared the moti on carried. M.r\. ROBLI N: Mr. Speaker, I be� to move, seconde d by the Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources, that Bill 1W. 6,

An Act to amend The Civil Service Superannu��tion Act:, be now read a third time and passed. After a vo:Lc e.vote, Mr. Spe3.ker declared the motion carried. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, I mo've, seconded by the Honour able the Attorney-General, . that Bill No. 7,

An Act for the relief of Denis Beaudry, be 1l.ow read a third time and passed. After a voice 'vote; Mr; Speaker declared the n1otioh carried. �\. THOMP30N: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able the Attorney-General, th3.t Bill No. 12,

An Act to authorize the making of a.•:?;reements between the :; overnment of Ca.lada, the Government of Manitob·'l. and j\·Iunicipalities for the purpose of in- 7

creasing employment of persons in winter, be now read a third time and passed. After a voice vote, ��. Speaker declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: for St •. George . Orders of Return. The Honourable the Member !viR. E. GUTTOHJ.,!SON (St. George): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Hono urable Member for Ste. Rose, that an Order of the House be issued for a return, showing the names and addresses of'all fishermen sold commercial licenses for Lake Manitoba dur ing the 1957-58 season. MR. GRAY: Now , I think it's a good motion, but I think the members would be interested to know for what purpose? MR.

GUTTORMSON: Mr. Speaker, I have my own reasons. They· will be revealed later on in the House, perhaps. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a vo�ce vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPE AKER: Adjourn debate. The Address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in answer to the Speech at the opening of the Session; and the amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for Pembina. ·MR. M.E . RI DLEY (Pell}bina): Ivlr. Speaker, I am glad to join with the pre·rious speakers to wish you well and congratulate you. I have no hesitation to say that we will be proud of you in this Chamber.

I also am .glad to take the opportunity to welcome all the new .Members in this Chamber. 1 am sure you will enjoy the work. As I just came into this House last year, and I certainly look· for ward to coming back into the Session this time. To you Members that are in the Opposition groups, I hope and I am sure you will, receive the same co-oper1.tion and goodwill fr om all Departments, from the Government, that I received when I was sitting aver where you are. I do not intend to speak too lonf's on my constituency, as I gave you quite a run of it last year; it has now changed a bit.

I1ve taken in a little larger territory. I have a few things that I want done, but I 'm not going to say anything about them now because .I am quite sure that I'll never see the day when they'll be able to say to me, "Why didn't you do it when? I hope I'm never asked that question. I hope they will be done, and I'm sure they will. · There is a few pieces of this Hansard that I wanted to read to you.

This is volume No. 2, page 25, the last paragraph - where the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition was speaking: "Then they establish a province-wide water control and soil conserva tion, that has been a great friend, a great policy of the Honour able the Minister of Agriculture, and yet, our Government put

legislation on the statute book. I understand that. I am afraid that my honour::�.ble friend, like his Minister of Agricu ltu r e, doesn 1t understand it. Yes, and no attempt, so far as I know, has been made to act on that very, very useful progr::�.m that was m::�.de possible at that time". Well now, as you knovv, when you read in the paper� shortly after the government took office, it wasn't very long that this Board was appointed on the Water Com mission Board. There were four men appointed: Mr. Peters, Mr. Ed Pulford, Mr. A. A. Hamm and Mr. R. Epson.

Now this Board is functioning, they were ::�.ppointed, they set up, and it is called the Lower Red River Valley Water Commission. They have appointed a secretary, Mr. D.K. Friesen. Now on October 2nd, Mr. Friesen wrote the Honourable Mr. Gurney Evans, the Mi·niste r of Industry and Commerce: "Dear IV!r. Evans: At a meeting of the Lower Red River Valley Water Commission, held on September 30th, 1958, the following resolution was passed: That insofar as it has been deemed necessary by the Government to set up a water commission, under

section "C" of the Water Supply Districts Act, therefore,

be it resolved that the Government, give to the Commission, the services of a department to do all engin eering and techni cal re search for the Commission. I was requested to forward this re solut ion to you ." Now, in the answer to that, Mr . Evans, on October 15th', that was 13 days after, he wrote Mr. D. K. Friesen: '"I am glad to acknowledge your letter of October 2nd, in which you quoted the follovving resolution approved: At the September 30th, 1958, meeting of the Lower · Red :::'.iver Valley Water Commissio." Mr. Evans says: "I am pleased to advise yo u that :tvlr. R. B.

Hogarth, Director of Water Research Br anch of the Department of Mines and Resour ces, is presently, (was already out working on it when he wrote this letter), presently ca rrying out a study of the pos sible sources of water supply . I understand that the stu dy in cludes an evaluation of the cost of using all possible so urces of supply such as the proposed Stephenfield reservoir, the Grea.ter Winnipeg Water District, the Roseau River and the Pembina River. This study will implement - supplement Mr. Hogarth1s re port of September 6th, 1958, dealing with the Morden Reservoir.

I understand that a copy of this letter has been forwarded to you by Mr. McMulle n. " So, I would take by that that the Department is taking some action and that there is an attempt being made. " The •.• I just didn't get the question. MR. MILLER: My understanding is that there was a report by ·Mr . Hogarth on September 6th. :rv�. RIDLE Y: On September 2nd. This will supplement Mr. Hogarth1s report of September 2nd, 1958, dealing with the Morden Reservoir. There was a report on the Morden Reservoir Which was tied in with it.

Now also, due to the Water Resources Branch, they were down and studied the area of the Pembina Triangle, and they rep orted back and said that the dugouts were very low in that whole area. This was reported to the Honourable the Minister of Ag riculture, and he immediately wired six municipalities in that area, asking them if they could help them in any way, that they had pumps and 9

pipes, that the water could be pumped out of the river into the dugouts. He did receive replies from two of them, who replied that they agreed they would get together, and he has had no word since from them. But the pumuing eq uipment is here, the pi pes are here. After all, for a Government that's only been in three or four months, I think they are taking very swift action in the matter. I also, at this time, must commend the Honourable Man ber from Dufferin for bringing up the important question of our water through the Carman area and all throu gh that area, Fanny stelle, ri,sht down to Morris.

I had intended bringing it up any way. This summer I travelled with Mr. George Muir who is the Federal Member for Lisgar, with some of the Town Council of Carman, and we spent a whole day go ing down through that area. It's not that eith er· one of us is any man to say where a dam could be built but we wanted to see the area. \·ve di d find in that area, ten or eleven miles west of Carman, where there were streams that run th e year round. And there's millions of ga llons of water that come down through those hills right back from St. Lupicin through to Grays ville and past Carman.

Now as we know, there was a resolution went in from this Government last year --' I 'm sure it was proposed by the Honourable Member for Dufferin -- to urge the Federal Government to do something on that matter. And, if I recall, I go t up and asked the question, nwhat would the Provincial Govern ment do if there was no action from the Federal Governm ent ?!I Now, I' m go ing to press for it, and I'm sure that every Member in this House knows the situation is serious, and I know the ·Minis ter will give us every co-operation in th at review. After Mr.

Muir and I made that whole day trip, we came in to see the Premier and the Minister of Ag riculture, and had consider able talks with them. Mr. Willis, in the past month, I am gl ad to inform yo u, has talked to P. F.R.A. twice a week, asking them to bring in recom mendations to solve this problem. Since that time,, he has informed me today, that the P. F. R. A. are making studies right now and are working on the project and he is waiting for· their report.

I am sure that every member in this House that kn ows the situat:ion involved, kn ows it is serious, very serious, for the towns and the farmers, and every one that has livestock in that area. I would just like to wind up, in passing, a few words, that we, on this side of the House, are very interested in this water project. My area is not involved very much qut I am in the area of Winkler south of there, and right down to Altona and all throu ·"';h there$ And I am sure the Honourable Member from Mo rris is vitally interested.

And I think that with the co-operati on of every one, the P .F .R .A . and our .own provincial go vernment, that we are going to get action. An I am sure we will all keep pressing for this action. MR. E. PRE FONTAINE (Carillon): Mr. Speaker, in spite of the few rema rks that I made at the time of the - the first day of this Session - when the time came to choose a speaker, I would like to assure yo u, Sir, that there was nothing personal in the stand that I took. I would like to cong ratulate you on having achievffithis 10

high office. I have full confidence that you will treat us '-"�.11 with equal fairness and I would like to offer my most sincere· congratulations also to Mrs. Harrison. I am tempted also to offer my sympathies to you, Sir, because I believe that your work will be quite difficult. This Session is only a few days old, and already quite a few have had to go to you for assistance. You've had a few difficult decisions to make. You have had to call to order quite a few of the members of this House, who were apparently imputing motives.

And I might say tha,t this is not surprising to me because they received a very bad example on the first day of the opening of this House. On that day, I made a suggestion. I made the suggestion that when we think of choos ing a permanent speaker, that it might be desirable to look'at all the possible qualifications and that outside of having ability and experience and good judgment, it would not be bad, it would be desirable, that a permanent speaker should have a certain knowledge of the two official languages of this House.

I did not say that he must be a bilingual person, or a French-speaking person, as I was quoted in the newspapers; I just said that he should have a certain knowledge. And one, in another senterc:e I said, "some command." I had in mind, not necessarily a French Canadian - Canadian of French origin - and I said that if the choice had been left open throughout the House that there might have been other possibilities than yourself. I had in mind for one, the Honourable the Member for Rhineland, who has a certain knowledge of the two official languages.

I had in mind the Honourable Member for Rockwood- Iberville, who has the same quali fications. I had in mind the Honourable Member for Radisson; my good friend, who on that particular day, had greeted me oo well in the French language when I got into the building. And, of course, there were also the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose; I did not take the time to name all these persons.

The Honourable, the Premier knows that these persons have a certain knowledge; but he chose, when h� spoke, to insinuate that I was preaching for a call, and that. he will take me into consideration later. I think that was showing a bad example, Mr. Speaker. If the Honourable, the Premier, did not like my suggestion, he should have said so, and not impute motives to me that I was preaching for a call. Possibly, Mr. Speaker, when there's no speaker in the Chair, it is permissible to forget the elementary principle of parliamentary etiquette.

There was only some hundreds of people in this House at that time when the imputation of motives was made. And I say to you, Sir, that I offer my sympathies. I might appear to be very hurt at the Premier; I was at the time; but now that I have cleared the record, I would like to say to him that, in his favour, there was the fact that we were delaying proceedings on that the great day when he was for the first time . appearing on this floor, and he had quite a program arranged. I bear him no ill feeling. I would like to compliment him for hav ing achieved the position that he has now.

I wish to wish him, in his new way of life, all the happiness possible, and to l.tlrs. Robliru also. I would like to present my congratulations to the mover of 11

th e Sp eech of the Address in Reply . He is a you ng man of energy , abili ty, who wi ll do well in this House . As far as the aecon der is concerned, I wou ld like to say th at very seldom have I been im pres sed as I have been by hi s sp eech on that day . I'm not th e on ly on e . I had, go ing back hom e on th at day, Hrs. Pref o nta in e and fo ur girls of grade 12 , St. Pierre Central School, and wit h respe ct to th at address, they had very, very kind .wo rds .

It is refreshin g, I am sure, to hear a ma n get up in this House, stress th e im por tan c e of sp iritu al values as th e Ho nourable Mem ber has don e . He wi ll. be a credit , not only to his par ty, but to this House. I wou ld like to congratu late my leader, the Leader of the Opp os1tion . He has been re-elected for the n1nth ti me , j_f I'm r1ght , in his constituen cy. Now, I have been re-elected mys elf six ti m es. As th e years go by, th e peo ple seem to get ti red of us . It seems to be a litt le bit more d1ffic u lt .

Alth ou gh I was able to end up ahead, it seems th at th e peo ple say : rtwel l , it 's tim e for a change . Th ese pers on s do not rule by Di vi ne Righ t." And I know that the Ho nou rable , my leader, Leader of th e Opp os1- ti on, has not treated his constitu ency as well as ma ny ot her constitu encies; in fact , th ey were left behind in ma ny , man y 1n stances . I say th at he was too humb le when he attribut ed to him self th e fact th at his par ty had not come back on to p after th e general election.

If it had not been for him in the ci rcum stances, i nstead of a slight defeat , it wou ld have been mu ch wo rse. Because this election, Mr. Sp eaker, was not foug ht on the bas1 s of Man 1t ob a pol it i cs, it was fough t on the basis of Federal po lit1cs . And I'm go1 ng to pro ve that before I'm th roug h . The re was a federal electio n, as you all know, on Ju ne th e lOth, 195 7. On elec t1o n n1ght , it was apparen t that th e Lib erals had been defeated . Mr. Die fenbaker had been elected with the largest group in th e Federal House of Co mmo ns .

Leader of th e Opposi tion in Ma nit oba , at th at ti m e, chal lenged Prem ier Cam pbell to an elec tion. A few days after some of us who had the chance to meet Prem ier Cam pb ell , sugge sted to him th at he shou ld accept th e chal lenge , and go to the peo pl � righ t away . I was on e of tho se. And my argume n t was this . Mr. Di efenbaker had ma de, has ma de a lot of pro m ises . This I was t?l lin g to my leader. He hasn't got the ma jo rity . Th ere mu st be anothe r Federal Election so on. He wi ll call the Federal Pa rliam ent and 1m pl em ent so me of his ma jor pr om ises .

He wi ll in crease old age pen sion s . He wi ll gi ve cash advan ces and the n it wi ll be mo re di ffic ult for us , because the credit th at wi ll go to I�. Diefe nbaker and th e Con servat ives wou ld wo rk agai nst us in �h nit oba . And ��. Cam pbel l answered, th e answer of a true statesm an� l.V.Ja.ybe you ' re right . But the jo b of a go vernme n t is to go vern, and to go vern as lon g as the law states it shoul d go vern un less th ere are some out stand ing circum stances wit hi n th e pro vin ce, and we have a year to go . Mr.

Sp eaker, I for one , am sure th at Prem ier Ca m pb ell is a ma n of wh om it will be mid , th at he was not a po liti cian but a statesm an. And do you know the differ ence bet·ween a state sm an an d a poli tici an? It is this . The statesm an is on e who believeg th e nati on belon gs to him . And I have said , and I repe at , th at this election of last 12

Ju ne was fo ug ht on th e basis of federal politi cs. I have wi th me certain qu otat ion s of ou r dail:- newspape rs . I wi sh I coul d have had brou ght these pa pers here; I thin k that the headlin es woul d _be big enou gh for you to be able to read them from you r plac es, mo st of you . I went to on e pa per and I was tol d that they don 't keep them for mo re than four mo nths . So I had to copy fro m the scrap book of th e lib rary, by a secretary, certain stateme nts that were ma de in th e last pro vin cial election . At Arborg , on Ma y th e 22n d , J:vlr. Roblin was sp eaking .

The Tr ibun e repo rts :;;ome of his stateme nts un der the pen of Mr . Peter Desbaret , if that 's the way to pron ou nce it . The headli ne i• this : Ba ck One Part y, Declares Rob lin . In the story, foll owi ng throug h his attack on the C.C. F., }.Jr. Roblin called for a l\·!arch th e 31 st vo te, on Ju ne 16th. Vot e as you vot ed on J:v!arch 31st . He ma de a stron g bid for sp lin ter-party vo tes, as he pl a. :::c>d the Cam p bell Government in th e shadow of the ol d Lib eral regi me at Ot tawa .

I'm qu otin g there are qu otat ion ma rks on this, "T he Howe-Gardiner Go vernme nt refuse d to giv e cash advances to farm ers and stable prices for f1.rm prod ucts . 11 The sp eaker was trying to revi ve these me n who had been defeated by the po lls, to fight the pro vin cial election on the bodies of Mr. Howe and J:vir. Ga rdiner. "I t coul dn 't be done," continues the sp eaker. And the, the writ er writ es this un der the titl e , th e new ti tle , "Ple dged Co -ope rati o n." J:vlr.

Ro blin said his party backed the policy of lon g-term farm credit - vol un tary crop in surance; pro vin ce-wi de so il and water conservat ion me as ures and mo re agricul tural research . He pr om ised the co-oper atio n of th e Tory Govern me nt in Ottawa in im ple me nting th ese schem es. Mr. Roblin pro mi sed the co-ope ration of the Tory Go vernme nt in Ottawa in im pl eme nting th ese schem es. And this mu st hav e been very successful. The heir apparen t to th e federal thrpn e certain ly shou ld carry a lot ofV�Bight wi th th e federal go vernme nt .

And he pr om ised th e co-oper ation of th e To ry Govern ment in Ottawa in im pl eme nti ng these schem es. Bu t th is is not al l , J:vlr.· Sp eaker. In th e Free Press of Ma y 31st , 19 58, a repo rt by Go rdon 3in clair, about a' me etin g in Gra ndvi ew. Qu it e a me etin g. I read it, I rem em ber very well that J:vir. Roblin stated th ere, th e repo rters stating, that th e Co nservat ives keep their pro m ises at Ottawa, they wi ll keep th em in Wi nnipeg .

And there is so mu ch alon g that li ne that the editori al writers at th e Free Press here, writ e in big headlin es, fla shy headli nes : "IF YOU FOL LOVlED JO HN, FOLL OW J:viE. 11 I th ink that that was qu it e some thoug ht . It 's to sayth at it was th e federal election really that June t.he 16 th, !v !anit oba election . There 's another one here from Dauphi n . It 's un der the pen of Peter Desbarets, Ma y 14th, 195 8, in the \r1Tin nipe g Trib un e ; "DAU PH IN Giv es Du ff a Diefen baker Welcome . Tri umpha nt En try" ••• Go sh, I forgot a qu otation here ••• You 1re clapp ing now.

I wou ld 1 ike to qu ot e fro m Ji mmy Hayes, I believe, �,,,hen he says that Die fenbaker has a mu ch great er app eal than J:vlr. Du ff Roblin , ·but I haven 't got it wi th me right now . MR. ROBL IN : It 's true . I have to admit . It 's true . J:vR. PRE FONTA INE: The second headline is trium ph ant entry. 13

Mr. Robli n 1 s campaign opener here res embl es Prime :t<linister Diefenbaker' s triumphant vis it la st }.·larch 17th, when he made an unsc heduled st op here in res ponse to a petition si gned by hun dreds of yo ung Conse rvatives . Hr. Roblin sp oke here becaus e of a similar petition si gned by 250 supporters. And here are the words by Mr. Roblin, as reported: "The people of Manitoba deserve a better government; a government which has watched the example of John Dief enbaker , who has sh o"m us the wayn . Sure, he has sh own us the way.

Everywhere in Manitoba very many Cons ervatives M.P . , also preaching the same go spel, that the Conservatives had done marvel ous ly well in Ottawa -- that they would do marvelo usly well in Ivlanitoba. And, they were in every ·part 0f the Province - in my own Const ituency - reviving Mr. Howe and lvlr. Gardiner. So that I would like to sa y to my Leader, that if it hadn't been fo r him that we would not have nineteen. And their victory is not so great after all •.•. so great. They did not receive nearl y as many votes in Ivllinitoba as Diefenbaker received on Iv1arch 31s t. Not nearly as many .

And the cry of "time fo r a change" has al ways an appeal to certain people, and that is the cause fo r so me votes go ing to the C. C.F . party; but I don't think that it was su ch a vic.tory fo r the Conservatives to come bac k here with only the number that they had. And I woul d li ke to say to Mr. Campbel l that the people of Manitoba co ns ider him as a great sta tesm an . To me, in spi te of the fa ct, and I will be told that I oppos ed him at certain times - and I· did, I thought that after nine years in co ali tion that the Leader of the Liberal party sh ould withdraw from coal ition.

But, I resp ected the man all my life and I say that the peopl e of Manitoba today have confidence in him , and I would n't be a bit su rprised if they would re-el ect him if we had an ele ction now. It is possi bl e to have one; if this motion passe s we'l l have one by Dec ember 15t h. And, I would li ke to of fer my good wishes to him and to his charming wif.e.

I would li ke to offer my co ngratul ations to the new cabinet minis ters , and here I will use first the French la nguage: Je desire offrir mes feli citations les plus sinceres a mon dis tingue corn patriote qui occupe maint enant un sie ge d1 avant clans cette Chambre en qual ite de Se.cretaire Provincial . Je sa is qu 1 il est un homme digne, dis tingue; 11honneur qui est le si en rejaillit sur tous les Canadiens- francais . I would li ke to sa y tha t I have been here fo r quite awhile , 23 years, and it1s the firs t time that I have se en so many new men occupy the fron t benches .

That proves that the crop of men that we have after this ele ction is the best crop that we have ever had . There are good men, not only in the front se ats , but al so in the back rows . I think it 's the best crop of men, by their actions up to now, that I have se en in this House in the seven le gisl atures that I have had the honour to si t in. In all parties - yes - definitely in all parties . I 'V':ould like to sa y to the young members that they sh ould be true to their party .

That we are operating in this Province under the party sy st em and that they sh ould stretch th eir cons cience to quite an extent, to fo ll ow their party . We can't all get what we want all the time . 14

But I might sa y, that if the time comes that on a ques tion of princ iple you feel that you cannot follow your party anymore, you sh ould hav e the courage to follow your conscience. It pays in the long run. Now, on comi ng to the amendment before us - want of confid ence motion. The Honourable, the Leader of th e CCF party, was ill at ease when he got up to spe ak on th is motion the oth er day. He says it's a "phoney" amendment; a clever manoeuvre. Mr. Spea ker, may I read from his address. (interrupti on) No, let me read, and we'll see who is right or wrong.

"It is a phoney amend ment" (that's on page 2 of the Hansard of volume I, Number 3) . "It is a phoney amendment designed so late for par tisan advantage. It was no doubt thought by th em" -- Oh, pa rdon me! •• ...•• ''by them of designs to be a clever manoeuvre". Yes, I was wrong! I admit th e co rrect ion ••••.• It wasn't the •••••.• O.K. I'm glad I mentioned that term anyway. It's not , Mr. Speaker, a phoney ame ndment. 'IJI1hat is the job of the Opposition in the legislature? The job of th e opposition is to oppose. It is to defeat the Gov ernment (hear! hear!) in order to become the Government.

And that's what we've been trying to do , and that's what we're trying to do now! Absolutely. And we banned an amendment that would do that purp ose, tha t would not force th e CCF to renege their princ iples to support; becau se the CCF have always claimed that the protection of farmers was the provinc ial responsi bi lity. They claimed th at all over the country during the election that they would take care of farmers; that they would protect the farmers if they were in office here. And, th e Conservatives have claimed the same story.

I would like to quote here from a spe ech delivered in Swan River by Mr. �oblin on May 30th, rep or ted by Jim Hayes. Headline, "Farm Polic y Rapped". Mr. Roblin concentrated his fire here on the Liberal farm policy, charging tha t the Campbell Governm ent had reJ>E?atedly declined opportun itie s to ai d the faltering agri cul tural ind us try. Quote: 11vv'e have asked the government to do so mething to help the farmers caught in the cost pric e squeeze . The Premier replies that very little can be done'', implying th at they could do very much provincially.

Quote again: "v,.e asked for a Mani tob a crop in surance program". (Interuption) That's what you said du ring the election. We asked tha t. You said, they appoint a commission and then tell tha t commission it can't wnke a recommendation; and then the reporter adds "The Conservative Leader promised action in B.C". Vvhat action has been done with respect to th is crop in surance? With re spect to soil and water conservation? \Vhat action? I don't see any action at all at the present time. And, as I quoted before, agriculture rese arch v,ms merit ioned.

They were supposed to get co-ope ration from the Tory Government. vie haven't seen any action. But, wh en I repeat that the duty of the opposition is to oppose and try an d get the government to bring ab out an election in order to become the government, we planned an amendement that you of the C.C.F. party, O·�r. Speaker, pardon me if I'm addressin g myself to people) that they would supp ort, because you ha ven't got among these eleven members, to renege your prin ciples. ��. Speaker, the C.C.F. party pretends that they are the 15

party that people of Manitoba want but the y are af rai d t o go to the people. They are afra id , absolutely. They are tr yin g to stay in office here. We are not afraid! (Interuption) Laugh as you may. Nothing proves it as well, lvlr. Speake r, as th e v-,rording of this resolution; and I 1m telling the C. C. F. that if they would get off th eir program ::�.nd policies and bring a res olution that would not force us to become socialists, we would support it. Their resolution the other day was this: "vie regret that the governmen t has not implemented socialism".

And, they expected that we would support that? (Interu ption) Yes. You converted one man. They expected that we would blame the Con�ervatives for not having implemented soci alism; we're not socialists. They knew very well that we could not support tha t. It is ridiculous to expect it, but we can expect that they will support ours, at least they can, without having a remor se of conscience, because they have alway s preached that the help of the farmers shbuld be prbvided provinciallyi I know they are saying now on the air the other day that this government now is not doing eno ugh for th e farme rs.

And in the House, th ey don't want to support us. 'V1e 1 re not straining their c onsc ien�es at all; we're asking them to suppor t us. And, I say that the job of an opposition is to defeat th e government, to become the government! And, if it doesn't become -- if we would not be come th e government after December 1 5th, if they would support us, it will be the will of the people and it would be good for this province. Absolutely! Good for this prov ince. I believe that is the ••••• of every statement in this House. Stateme nt. and that party that pretends that it is a party, that it has a program !

You're sure they fo und tha t prog ram not on the floor of this House, as was stated by the Honourable, the Leader, but on the hustings of this provinc e. I was surprised to ••• Oh, by the way, before I quote. I might say that I was astounded that the Honourable, the Leader of the C.C.F. party said the other day about this amendment. In th e cir cumstances a vote for this amendment would mean th at we favour putting the Campbell Government back into office. �hat a surprising statement fr om a man who has been in this House for 13 years! \vhat a surprising statement.

Of course, being in the position he is now, he is not himself anymore! Not himself, anymore. I do not recognize the man, �:r. Speaker, I do not recognize •.• He used to be so happy, to be able to able to criticize all the time and always vote 11no11• Now it is very embarrassing. Very embarrassing . He knows very well tha t vot ing for this amendment means a general electi on. Does he think we wi ll come back? I think we would make a darn good show; but why would he say that voting for this would put !V.tr. Camp bell in office? I just can't understand it.

But, he go es on to say - he goes on to say -- he didn't know what to say really on that famous day when he moved his amendment and spoke. We believe, Sir, th at it is our job in this group to promot e our own pro- gram. His job, as Leader of an Oppos it ion, is to defeat the governme nt and go to the people and promote his program and come back and be the government and establish socialism in this pro vince. That 1 .o his job. \\'e were elected on a certain platform 16

an d that is what we are here to fi ght fo r . He 's here to fi ght for his ·pl atfo rm . He n of th is pa rty have been here now since I'm here, and they have repeat ed the same stories� but th ey are here to defeat th e gove rnme nt, if they pretend that they are a par ty , and to try an d be come a governmen t th ems elv es as soon as possi ble . That 's what . They 're not here -- no body -- none of us is here to pro p ound a pl atfor m. To fi ght for a pl atfo rm . I can't understand that . vve 're here to consider th e laws brough t in this Hou se by th e go vernme nt .

Vve 're here to submi t pro pos al s and bill s to this House . Let th em do so . But , to state that th ey are here to fi ght for th eir pl at fo rm seems to me not very, very go od . Now , .tv�r. Sp eaker, very surpris ing to see that th e C.C.F. pa rty comes to th e re scue of th e gov ernme nt . Mi nd you, th e go v ernmen t is not anxi ou s to be rescued . Oh, no . I know that th ey wou ld possi bly consider an election . Yes, absolute ly . Bu t th e jo b of th e Opp ositi on is to op po se, to repl ace the gov ern me n t . The jo b of th e go vernme nt is to go vern .

The jo b of the governmen t , (and I comp li me nt th e go vernmen t , th ey are bringin g fo rward legi slat ion and they are go vernin

g) it is to govern un til th ey are defeated . Stat esme n do that . Like .Mr. Carrtpbell , Leader of th e Opposi ti on . He could have call ed an elect io n fo r poli ti cal pur poses ri ght af ter Ju ne lOth, 195 7, but he said : "I 'm not here to pl ay po li t ics, I'm here to go vern" . That 's what he did . Laugh as mu ch as you ma y, that 1 s what v.ras don e . And, I say that th e jo b of th e governme nt is to go vern. Th ey mi ght hop e to be defeat ed, but it 's no� the ir jo b to dis solve th e House and call an electi on on their own .

Th ey mu st go on as if they have the full conf idence of this House . It 's to o bad if th ey did not get a larg er ma jo rity . They wi ll go th roug h dif ficult periods , but that 's because they didn 't get mo re elect ors to vo te for them. Their jo b is to go vern as lo ng as th ey've go t th e reins of offi ce. And, I'm qu it e sure that th e Prem ier wi ll go vern as lo ng as he 's not defeat ed, un less the re is so me very imp ortant ma tt er, out standing matt er, that necessitates a pr ov incial electi on .

But , I say to th e C.C.F. , that it is not th eir jo b to go vern, it 1 s th eir jo b to op pos e .· The Leader is not very com fo rtable in th e posi tion of having to supp ort . I'm wond ering at ti me s if th ere have been an y pro mis es, but I'm sure that the Honour abl e, the Leader of th e C.C.F. wi ll fin d out, un less th ere has been pro m ises , that th ey migh t be goin g fo r th e peo ple any way. Now I can see why th e C.C .F. pa rty is not anxio us to go to the peo ple now .

I can see an d I kno�r why , becaus e the re are two pa rties of the left now in Ma nit oba and they 1re goin g to be swal lo wed by the other one . They are being sv.Jallo wed by the other one . Of course, not th e men , but I mea n th e vo te that elect th e me n. 2v en this af ternoon, the Ho nourable Mem b er for Radisso n ma de this sp eech. He v1as nearly crying to see how th e Conservat ives have mov ed forward and have adop ted the ir ideas.

As far as I'm concerned, it wa s a shock to me , wh en I heard the Ho nourable, the Mi ni ster of Healt h and �elfare th e ot her day app rov e hol us -bolus the resolu tion of th e , of th e C.C.F. mem ber for Inkster, wi th respe ct to ol d pe op l e; I'm qu it e sure that 17

some ol d Con servatives that hav e parted an d left us ye ars ag o, must be turnin g in their gr av es. Abso lutely ! Abs olu te ly ! You may say : "Well , yo u of the Li beral p:1.rty, yo u sup port this amend ment ''· Yes, we hav en't got the job of findin g the mone y, it1s yo ur job now to find the money ; it 1 s not ou r job . And , wh en for all this legislat ion ·was promised to come next sprin g, to im plement the three points, broug ht by the C. C.

F. , I can see, \'.rl).y the member for Radisson wa s lamentin g that fact, to quite an .exte nt, becau se they 1 re st ea lin g the ammunit ion from the party . Ther e are tw o left side parites in lvianitob a no w. This one has no chance to be el e cted, so the people wi ll vote for th is left side party . And, th is afternoon the member for R.adisson sug gested that the label of the Conser va ti v� party shou ld be ch an ced . Well, that party certainly has a new look . I do n't know if we ca n cal l it the new loo k pa rty or the Pro gr essive Conserva tive ' Soc ial ist party ; I don't know .

But * certainly it's no t theparty th at we wo uld expect from a pa rty that call s it sel f Conser vati ve . Oh, yes, po ssib ly -- yes possi bly . To a certain exten t. I n itself to me that's a contradiction . (Hav e I got the wo rd rig ht ? Yes . Tres bien .) It's a contr adiction to call onese lf Co nser vati ve and Pro gressi ve at the same time. But wh en we add so ciali st to it, it adds more con fusion, bu t th ere are a lot of peop le wh o are confu sed by the statement made by the Honourab le, the Minister of Hea lth and Welfare the other day.

But I say when there are tw o parties of the left, it is qui te comprehensible that the C.C. F . doesn't wa nt to go to the people now . Oh no, they wa nt to wa it for a tim e, as lon g as possi ble . I do n't ·want to impute moti v es, I' ll not •..• • they want to wait for a wh il e . But, Mr. Spea ker, I pr edict very short life to . many members of the C. C.F. pa rty . M"L STI NSON : Will the hono ur able gent leman permit a question ? MR . P� EFO NTAI NE : Yes, certa inly. MR . STI NSON : Does my honou rable friend reca ll the pre dict ion th at he made to me ju st before the last election ? M� .

PREFON TAI NE : Yes, yes . I did but -- the ac t io ns of the Liberal Gov ernment in Ottaw a, the old Lib eral Go vern ment, wh ich I did not su pport fully, \\'as instru ment al in cr eatin t-3 an atmosphere in this pr ov ince, of dou bt, and the people did not kno"'' exactly wh ere to go. They we re not quite satis fied, some thin g sho uld be chan ged . Some vo ted for yo u, th e majority voted for the Conservatives . But now th at the Conser va tives hav e promis ed the wel fare state in this prov inc e, they voted to aban don yo ur par ·ty . I Vias wr on g in my las t predict ion .

I v'ill be ri ght in this one . MH . . STINS ON: Hr. Speaker, may I put another ques tion in order to clarify this matter ? HiL P'-zEFONTA I NE : Not too many -- my time, IJ.Y time . M,�. STIN SON : Oh, the Speaker won't cou nt th is tim e. Wil l the honou rab le gentlema n recal l the prediction he made wi th res pect to the number of seats th at ';ve vm uld ha ve in this House ? MR . P':\EF ONTA INE : I think I did say five . Is th at. ri ght ? fiv e ? vJell , my predi cti on stand s for ne xt time . hr . S?eaker , we have tw o left side parties in Ma nitob a and one party Qf the 18

cen tre . M�L STI NSON: The ri ;_;ht! l,i;�. P: R.EFONTAI NE : �light , th e pa rty of th e rig ht . Thi s part y th at follo ws th e part y that pa ss ed the legisl ation th at th is party has pa sse d? The party th �t la st year raise d th e allo wanc e of th e old age pen s io ner s or th e co nt r ibu t ion to mu nic ip ali t es . Th e party th at 1.A.rent ahe ad immedi at ely itihen the federal party in crease d the ir old age pens ion by ni ne dolla rs , we nt ah ea d imn1e di at el y to con tri but e it 's share in a fift y-fifty basis rig ht off the bat .

The party th at in cre ase d thei r re ven ue s, that 's the party of th e ce nt re . Rea son abl e. �ea son able . Not on th e ex tr eme side . The part y th at sp en t f. J,�t y mi llion do llars on ro a ds . The bu dg et of one hun dred an d five mill ion doll ars . The part y th at pr ovided th e bes t Manit oba Telep hone Syst em in an y provin ce . Ar e you up to stop me� l"iR. SPE AKE R : No , no . I was keepin g an eye on so me of the other mem bers , he re . MR. PZ t:FON TAI NE : The party th at ha s provid ed rural electri fica tion in this pro v inc e? Is th at a party to th e ex tre me rig ht , Br .

Speak er? Th e party th at ha s bro ught in this nev-1 re distr ibut ion syst em? That 's prog ressi ven ess , Mr . Sp ea ker . I sa y th at vve are th e party to th e ri ght . And , I sa y thrlt so me

part ie s in Mani t oba wil l have to se e th at aft er all th e gov er n me nt is no t th e mi lk .c ow on whi ch so me body can draw end less ly and inex hau st ively th e money that th e ta xpay ers pay; that so me stop wil l have to be brou ght so me pl ac e. And , I sa y th at th ere wil l be a lot of voters v:ho vdll vote for th e ce nt re party next elect ion . The soo ner it co m es , the bette r . And this is our party, th e pa rty of th s cen t re . In two

part ie s of th e lef t , th e C. C. F. party is go ing ov er th e way si de. Jlily pr edic ti on st and s for next elect ion . I' m not th e bett ing ty pe . But , I am very mu ch sur pr ise d to se e tha t the C. C. F. party "''ould pl ace the ir con fiden ce in the Cons er vati v es at this ti me . �ight aft er th e elect ion of June 16 th, th ey we re th e fir st to call us an d ex- · ami ne the si tua tion . They wo uld give no promi �e of su pport for sese ion . Not at all , no . We want to run our ovm boa t ou rsel ves . 0. K. That wa s th e larg e st gr ou p .

It \·Tas on ly pro per th at �Ne should han d over th e rei ns . Now , v.re1r e si tt in g in this si de , and th ey are sittin g over the re . If th er e we re en ou gh sea ts, they sh oul d be all sitt in g on th at si de . Too bad that there aren 't an y mor e se at s over th ere . But , ]t.fts surp ri si ng , in th e li ght of what th ey sai d abou t th e Con se rvat ives , dur in g th e elect ion , ( and I have a fe "'' choice qu ot ati ons he re th at I vJOuld li ke to gi ve you at this ti me ) .

It 's surpr is in g how th e Hono ur abl e, the Le ader of th e C.C.F. pa rty ha s beco me a fri en d of th e Tribu ne . In bi g hea dlines the othe r day , "N imble To ngue d St ins on"- -on e -inch col umn , ri ght on th e fro nt page . They ce rtai nly trea t him well now . But he did no t tr ea t the Conser vat ives ve ry well du r ing the last provin c ial electi on, and I have he re , a nev\rs sto ry fro m th e \' ,in nipe g Tr ibune , May 28 th , 19:8 , und er th e pen of Pet er De sbar et , ,fr or:1. Grand vi ew : th e he adl ine - "S ti nson sa ys Li ber al P.C. 's san e. " Here is the sto ry :.

"s pe ak in g to si xty peop le in the par ish hall he r e Tu esda y nig ht , Nr . 19

St inson in di cated his awaren e ss of the gro wing Tory st J;"en��t h in th e curr en t ele ct io n campa ign , by cri ti ciz ing the Cons ��vat ives even mo re stro ng ly th an th e Campb ell Go vern men t ". Qu ot e. "It doesn 't mat ter wheth er th ey call th ems el ves Lib eral Pr ogre ssi ves or Pro,;ressi ve Cons er vat ive s", he sai d , "th ey 'r e both Con ser vat ive s, an d neither one is pr oc;ressi ve" . But , he re . is a choicE! stat eme nt th at th is ni mble- ton gue d Nr . St inson made : "I f they we re el ec ted , th e Torys ·w ould be no diff eren t tha n th e Lib eral s, at that sep arate s the

part ies ri ght now is a pa ir of horn -ri mmed gla sses an d a mu st ache ". At leas t , bet we en th e le ader and th e dep uty lea der , there are tw o pairs of glass es - horn-ri n@ed . MR . SPEA KE R: I sh oul d li ke to inform the Ho nour abl e Eemb er for Car illon that he ha s spoken his fo rty mi nu tes . J:.:R. RO BLIN : can t inue , llr. 3peaker , he is makin g a mo st in ter est in g arg ument . Ivi..:\.. Pi\.EFO��TAINE : I wish to than k th e Hou s e. H,'\. . :STTi'iSOi'l: Sin c e he qu ot es my speech es, I thin k he sho uld con t in ue . l-lR .

P: \.EFO NTAI NE: 1dell , I 11 1 carry on th en, just quo ti ng your spe ec hes . And the v.rrit er of th e st ory go es on now : "The C.C.F . Leader charged th e Tor ies have lost an y co nsisten t po li ti cal phil os op hy , when the Robl in Gov ern ment wa s vo t ed out of of fice in 1915 . At th at ti me , they we re op po se d to vot es fo r wome n, co mpul so ry edu cation and any kin d of refo rm" . Here is a qu ota tion : "Since th at ti me th ey 'v e been veer ing wit h the wi nd . Th ey re verse th ems el ves o� ever y maj or pol icy exc ep t th ei r pro fesse d lo yalt y to th e Br it ish Cr own .

I n rec en t sess ions of the legisl ature .," Mr . St in son sai d , "Cons erva t ives have vot ed against the C.C.F . res ol ut ion s advo catin g su pport of th e co -op e rat ive mov eme nt s, hos pit al insu ran c e, farm se cur ity le gi sla ti on, la rger gov ern ment rev en ues fro m Man it oba 's na tur al re so ur ces , free di agn osis and tre atmen t of can ce r, and the pro v in c ial Civ il Serv ic e Right - Civ il Righ ts Bill . That 's the pa rty th at he want s to su ppor t in of fic e at th e pr esen t ti me .

At th e ex pen se of th e chan c e of for min g a so ci ali st gov ern me nt in this pr ovi nc e. Carr y on . Their vo t in g reco rd sho ws they are ag ains t th e we lfare of th e peop le an d in support o f big bu si n ess . Now, th at 's on e of the -- it 's the Lead er of th e C.C.F . par ty and th at 1 s his opinion of the part y th at he vvant s to carry on in off ice. One othe r sta t emen t here - I think th a.t I' ve had en ough qu es tio ns . I hav e a lo ng speech to r.:take and ••• t� . STIN SON : Oh , bu t this is a good one .

Ml:L P \.EFONTAINE : Vv'ell , no , I don 1 t thin k so , I 11 1 give you not this next ti me , I' m sp ea kinc ab out the -- your co ll eag ue no�r. I co nsi de r th ere are th ree str on g men in the C.C.F. par ty , I 1v e qu oted fr om on e . I vmnt to qu ote from a rad io addr es.s - in the Tr ibune , rep ort of Tr ibune on May 29 th, 195 8 . Th e he ad li ne 11Rob lin Called Dief Imi ta tor" . "Ass ini boia C.C.F. candi dat e Don avon S\·mi l es , liv'edne sd ay , unc losed a sca th in g at ta ck on the Cons er vat ive party - Leader Duff �ob lin in partic ular , in a radio .spee ch .

Th e Conse rv at iv es, he sa id , as a mo st dis orga ni ze d part y in th e pr ovin ce ; an d Lea der Duf f aobl in is tr ying to co n duct a one -man shm,..r, tr yi nJo].; to be the can di dat e in every co n st ituen cy . It is antu sin g, 11 Hr. Sw:Jiles sa id , "to watch th e pe r- 20

for ma nce of l:1r . Robl in as he tries to copy the election · tactics of Jo hn Dief enbaker. It vm ulcl be interesting to fin d out '''here all the mo ney 's ·coming fro m that they are sp ending so freely " - (I was interested \·lit h that too ·· !) ''Duff Roblin'' (and I 'm read ing fro m that

article ) "Duff R.Obl in .Just Hasn 't got a Tea m, " the C.C.F. candidate said , "they are ju st a gr oup of di sorganiz ed indivi dual s. The leader of the Conservo ti ve part y should be the last person on earth to crit icize the inef ficien cy of the 'Camp bel_l Go vernmen t .' Bes ides, the C.C.F. is the only gen uin e alt er nativ e to th e pr esent admi ni stration" , in a coupl e of centuries, I gu ess. I wou ld li ke to quo te now , wor ds fro m the third strong man of the C.C.F. and th at to my min d , th e mem ber for H.adi sson.

In the Free Pr ess of May 26 th, 19 55, under the headline : ''Tories Ar e Bam boozl ers," Paul ley says . Now th e story : ''The Co nserva ti ve and Liberal

part ies were·r enamed the bam booz lers and the bam boo zled by R.uss Paull ey, C.C.F . candidate in th e Radi sson constitu ency at th e week-end me eting of camp ai gn wor kers . The To ri es, he claimed had li ttle re spect for th e me ntali ty of th e average voter . The y bam boozle d and befuddled, he said . Th is method is their only hope . They certainly can 't stand on thei r past record or on their non -existen ce of pol icy." (I nterupt ion ) You don 't seem to think so . Now , I wi ll not qu ot e any mo re, Jvlr.

Speaker, I ju st want to show to you , that it 1 s not go od for dem ocracy when the poli tical part y abandon s all that it believes in . Even soci alis m to carry on a gover nme nt th at they have no real con fid ence in . The y are the pa rty that wo uld give Manit oba the kind of govern me nt that Ma nit oba needs ; th ey say so, th ey 've said so in th is Hous e and in th e pr ovin ce. And I .say they should repeat the same story, all the husti ngs , and to save th e time of the House a l ittle bit .

They have been us ing so mu ch ti me in th e 23 years that they have been here, preaching th eir progra m and pol icies , and accus ing us of speaking from thei r pol icies to put thin gs into pr ac ti ce. Well , they have been advo cating everythin g under th e sun , and vre 1 re go ing alon g -- some say slo wl y, but v\'e 1 re a dem ocracy and we 1re goin g alon g qu it e qu ickly . And th is pa rzy is go ing along also .

And, I mig ht say, that I am surp rised by the anti cs being played by that pa rty at th e pr esent ti me . v\hen they in sist on recording the vot es wh en there is not a single person op pos ing it . I hav en't seen that in th e 23 years that I1 ve be en here. I s that statesma nship , or playin g politic s? I do n 1t kno'tt \'Jhat the purpo se is . Mayb e it wil l carry on the tradition and en courage the Free Pr ess to show a certai n youn g ma n in his kil ts, I don 't know; at least to keep the impr ession that th ere is some thin g child ish. It Be ems to me , Mr .

Spe aker, the Oppos iti on is here to defeat the govern men t at the ti me , at the prop er ti me , on a want of conf idence mot ion . And this is the time and we are rig ht on it , not here to defeat every bill . It 's here to try and impr ove the bill . That 1 s \'That vie have done VIhen there is som ething good , we go along, and that 1 s v1hat we did . But the C.C.F. and the oth er party seem to ta ke fun in wo rk ing to geth er, not al·v1ays , not ah ,,ays . And I '-'.'ould advise th e 21

Leader of the c.c.F. to be. mo re CClreful . He has emba rrassed th e Prenier, the other ni ght . He has emba rrassed the Premier twic e. And that 's pr etty risky because th e fi rst th ing that he knows that he wi ll be called . The Leader of the Hou se, the Prem ier got up wi shing to pr event an adj our nm ent .

I thin k the hono urable memb er fo r Fisher had mov ed an adj our nmen t and I thin k the Hon- ourable the Pr emi er got up, "n o we shouldn 1 t all ov.r this ." The hon ourable mem ber for Lac du Bonnet , there are t"''o occasions - I don 't remem ber the ot her occasion · th ere are two occasions , lately that th e Leader of the House wanted an adj ournm ent , the Leader of the Oppo sition op po sed it . The Leader of th e C.C.

F . got up , not wi th to o mu ch energy , bu t he go t up , and said that maybe it wo uld be better to allo w ti me , that an adjo ur nmen t was pr oper and it was quit e humi lia t ing for the Pr emi er to allo w th e adj our m nent when he had me ntion ed that he wa s against it , and I warned the Leader of the C.C. F . not to do th at to o oft en, fo r his sake, but fo r our sake too . No , it 's not pl easant to lead a governmen t when you haven't got a ma jo rit y.

But it 's becaus e th ere is no ma jo ri ty, and democracy \Jirill endure as lon g as men wh o belong to a party v!ill think of th e state before th inking of the party. I trust that the Leader of the gov ernme nt will do that . And I have ju st one mo re word to say. Success is never fi nal - and these wo rds go to the Prem ier ; fa ilure is never fa tal : The se wor ds go to the Leader of the Oppo sition ; and the la st words, it 1s courage that counts ; and .these word s ar-e for the Leader of the C.C.F . , when there is no courage there is no success. MR.

SP EAK ER: Bef or 3 ::::: rut the que stion, I ·would just li ke to say that the Honou rable Me mb er fo r Cari llon, that I' m goin g to try to ma ke him happy and be able to say fr om the Spea ker 's chair , Ici un pa rle Francais . MR. C.E . GR EEN LAY (Portage la Pra irie ): I ju st have a very few remar ks that I'd like to ma ke at th is parti cular ti me . And, Mr. Speaker, I feel at a li ttle disadvantage in ri s ing aft er such an eloq uent address as \Jile -have heard ju st now .

However, · I thin k this is the pro per pl ace to bring in some of th ese po int s and I ri se to do that at the pr esent time . Mr . Spe aker, I wish at the out set to congratula te you , Sir , at you r election to th e hig h of fic e th at you have attain ed and to wi sh you every success in that po siti on. Now , Mr .

Spe aker , I somet ime s get qu it e a li ttle bit of pl easure and self -satisfact io n, if you li ke to put it that v.ray, satisf action in the pa rty which left the other side of the Hous e as of the first of Ju ly , when we pick up the pr ess and read some of the stori es which are included in it an d I wo uld go back to the , for instance , to the \v'inni peg Tr ibune of Saturday, Sep t emb er the 13th , in wh ich there is qu ite a li ttle headline , qui te a headline : "Tory Tea m Scores , But Big Te st Still To Co m e." And we run down th roug h th e story th'lt 1 s included there and it 1 s very interesting and very gratifyin g to see the , \JIIhat is being done wi th th e mat erial wh ich th e party on this side of the House lef t , and pre pared , and the fo undation that they built to carry on from .

And I would refer to a few of those 1;Je have th e Hono ur able the Mini ster of Agri culture, \JI�o mad e qu ite a play go ing 22

around the country in this summe r, and qu it e just ifiably so , 1t'ith regard to th e pr ograffi th at he set up fo r the transpor tatio n of fodder , and I wond er if you sit do,,m and ju st take a li ttle look at that pr ogram . \Vhat did it do? V./hat wa s it ? It was the old Lib eral pr ogram carried out by th e Con servativ e Min ister. The only th ing th at he ac comp lis hed, !vir. Speaker , was getti ng in to uch wi th Ottawa and ma king , aft er some mi sunderstandin g, ma k ing an agr eeme nt wi th th em , for them to pay a p<lrt of th e cost . Hr .

Speaker, \'le go on in this pa rticular it em, and we fin d th e Min ister of Health and Pu blic Welfare has ma de arrang eme nts for a fin e bi g Salk Vaccine Pr og ram . Well , it was carryin g on the progra m that was so ably started and set up by th e Honour able Memb er fo r Rockwood-I bervi lle . Then we go do\1\>n to the Mi nister of Public Util it ies and there 's a nice little story here. I'd li ke to read this one .

The re 1 s a nice li ttl e stor y here: "A not her new-comer , Publ ic Util it ies Mi nis ter Ja ck Carrell , moved qu ickly on the Natural Gas Enq uiry Co m mis sion report , adop ting step on e of the repo rt . He gav e Winnipe g and Central Gas Company 45. days fr om publ ica ti on of a report to pr oduce a 90 cent per cubic foot , thous and cubic fo ot gas rate fo r Winni pe g" . The interesting �art of th is is, who set up th e comm issi on? Who pr ovided th e inf orm atio n on which he pro oeeded?

And anot her interesting sidelight is that , I was fo llo wi ng the pr ess fai rly closely along about that ti me and it seeme d to me that up until th is

part icular story, that it was the Firs t Mini ster tha:t was ma king all the announc ement s and setting out that they had to this and they had to do that . But when you come alon g to this story it s th e team and it 's the Hon ourable Mi nis ter of Publ ic Util Lties that has ma de th e, has don e the whole thi ng . Now, Mr. Sp eaker, the po int I want to ma ke is this , that he woul dn 't have been gett ing anywhere if it hadn 't been that thi s adm ini stration set up the Gas Enqu iry Co mmi ssio n whi ch coll ected th e dates and forme d the basis on wh ich they could pr oceed. Mr.

Speaker, th ere are one or two oth er thin gs here that· I'd li ke to ment ion . One is, another gent leman here in the, that 's in th is

part icular story , the Ho nou rable Mi nister of Mine s and Natural Resources. And I doubt very muc h, kno1t1ing him as I do , I doubt very muc h if he said thi s and started it off in the way that it is written up here. �ut the st ory is that he in stitu ted, he in stitut ed an enquiry int o th e operat ion and th e proble ms of , wi th re ga rds to the timb er in the south:-eastern part of Manit oba . I wo n der wh o inst ituted that ? I wo nder who it was? The re was a rep ort that had ju st come to hand befo r e this governmen t left off ice wi th regards to th at pa rti cular pr oblem .

Th ere had been a cormn ittee wor king on it fo r som e , fo r about a year, and the repo rt wa s in our hands, and the commit tee was still wor king to work out som e kind of a progra m to fo llo w throug h . And he had all th at to start off wi th , and yet th e story is here, he institu ted a progra m, or investig ation in south eastern Ma nito ba . That 1 s ri ght , that 1 s right but go ing on •••• HON . GU:tNEY EVA NS O·iinist er of :tviines and Natural Resources) : You hadn 't done anything wit h your report . It had been lyin g there for mon th s. 23

MR . GR EE NLAY r That rig ht , going on from wh0re we lef t of f and with the inform ation that we had prov ided. MR . EVA NS: You never even me t on that rep ort . J.,L{. GR EEN LAY : lilr. Spe aker, I do not wi sh to contradic t th e gentl ema n to his fa ce, but , Mr . Speaker , th at stateme nt is in correct. And so we go on do wn through th e story , this being repeat ed over and ov er ag ain. Mr . Speaker , the ot her th ing that I vi ew with some concern ahd I think the peop le of the pr ov ince should view wi th some concern is this . We heard muc h th is mo rning in commi ttee , ¥� .

Spea ker, about this stream lin ing � we 1ve heard abou t it in the pr ess. You not ice another name that they call that , the stream li nin g , and that is concentration of authorit y. Mr. Spea ker, when you streaml ine it in th e 1.•'�.Y that thin gs are being set up here, th e mo st of th e Mi nis ters ov er there become chore boys fo r th e central group , the Tr easury Board . The story in th e pr ess is the Jr easury Boa rd is the bi g- shot . They 1re the group that say what you do and what you don 1t do , and th e rest of th e fell ows run arou nd and do the chores . Mr .

Sp eaker, that is a concentration of authori ty, because the authority all fu nnels through to one or tw o peop le . 1Nhat does that lead to ? Dic tato rship , Mr. Speaker, and that 's the way it come s about . Pr obably th e people that ar e do ing it are not conscious of it , but I say, Mr . Sp eaker, that , as one of th e honou rabl e memb ers said th is mo rning in the comm itt ee, that it is well to have more heads si tting in on those pr oblems than two or three.

And every one has his li ttle bi t to contribut e, whoever he ma y be to the deliverati ons , and th e thou ght s, and the consideration of the vario us proble ms that come up in Cab inet . Now , Mr . Sp ea. er, I wa nt to pa ss on to say a li ttle bi t abou t some of th e pr oblems , one of th e pr obl ems , which I th ink faces agr icultu re, and we heard some of this this aft ernoon from th e honou rable memb er fro m Du ffer in, wi th regard to the lack of mo isture, and the lack of wat er. Mr . Spe aker, I th ink this is not peculiar only to the south ern port ion of this pr o� vin ce.

You wi ll fin d that up th rough the central part of the pr ovinc e, even in arou nd Portage , that there is the question of lack of wat er and we have , the one th ing which brin gs th is particularly to your attenti on is if you look at th e flo w in the Assinabo ine River . The flo w I th ink , is as low, or almost as low as any time that I have ever seen it and I have seen the river continual ly for all of my li fe . And it seems to me , Mr . Spe aker, that one of th e th ing s that should be considered, this ha s already been sp oken of to the P.

F.R.A., the mat ter ha s been dis cussed wi th them about a year and a half ago , then at later int ervals , and this year the Portage Coun cil pa ssed a resolu tio n requestin g the pr esent admini stration here, in th e pr ovin ce, to try to do some th ing ahout the construction of a dam at Po rtage la Prairie for th e pur pose of storing water to assure a goo d per mane nt and continuous supPly of \'rater fo r the city of Po rtage la Prair ie . Now , �lr. Spe aker, this is n1t only a ma tter of im medi ate city concern. Mr .

Speaker, you wi ll know that adjacent to Po rtage la Prair ie th ere are two ai rp ort s wh ich are served, serviced with wat er fro m the city wat er plr�nt . You wi ll also 24

know that qu ite recently th e construction has begun on the Campb ell soup pl ant in the city of Po rtage la Prair ie and, one of the th ings which of course is im portan t to them is a go od continuous supply of goo d wat er. Though it ha s never occurred yet , that the city and people dependent on that water supp ly , hAve been short .of water; but there is a po ssible chanc e that if the drough t pe ri od should come about , and a mor e severe drought perio d than any we have had so far , that there might be some difficu lty in supply ng a suffic ient qua ntity of wat er.

So it seems to me that it would be very, very , a very advantageous pr oje ct, one which would be in accordanc e with the gen eral oPer ation s of th e P.F .R.A. to construct a dam at the city of Port age la Prairie at a poin t just west of the ci ty it self , in order to build up a reservoir of water at th e in take to th e wat er po rt . Mr .

Sp eaker, I thin k that th is is extremely impo rtant at the time , because, I don 't know wh ether the honou rable me m bers are in th e Hou se, know that the city , the agricul tural area adjacent to Portage has always been very pro g ressive in adop ting some kind of new crop, wh ich th ey can gr ow, and which do not com pet e directly with the grain gr owers. We have had the advanc e in the gr owing of peas , .and that not so pr evalent as it wa s a few years ago .

We have had· qu ite a large acreage of' sugar beet gr own there; we 've had som e soya beans , and now wi th the comi ng in of th e Campb ell sou p plA nt there is qu it e an interest taken by the pe ople of' that lo cal it y in growing crop s wh ich wo uld be , which could be sold to the plan t ; and would thus take some of' th e pr o duction of this land out of comp etiti on wit h the grain gr ow ers. I thin k , Mr . Speaker, you wi ll agree that th at's one of' th e pr ime ob jectives, one of the very f'ine obj ectives of any a�-.:ricultural po licy in th e prov ince.

That is to tr y to get diversified crops , wh ich can be ma rketed in some other v..ray, and not in comp et itio n to grain . So I think that on e of th e im portan t th in:";s would be , to go ahead with a dam wh ich wo uld assure a goo d water sup ply , so that th e plan t would never be in a po sition of' having to say; well we can't opera t e because we haven 't got suf'f'icient wat er and theref'ore we can't take yo ur pr oduce of'f' th e f'arm .

Not only a v� getable crop that can be gr own ther e but the fact that th is plan t is lo cated there wi ll me an that there wi ll be qu ite a con siderable ma rket f'or f'owl and oth er meat produ cts, whic h can be used in th e pr eparation f'o some of' the soups from that plan t . So , M r.

Spe aker, I want ed to ment ion that particula r pr oje ct, because I th ink it is impor tant , and I wo uld suggest that the admi nistra tion should ap proa ch th e P.F.R.A. and urge them to loo k into this pr oje ct, very, very closely an d as soon as pos sible , becaus e it seems to me , that th ere are many ot her pr oject s undertaken by that org aniz ation wh ich wo uld not be of' as muc h benef'it as th is

part icular one . Now , Mr. Speaker , I woul d go on f'rom that just f'or a few mome nts , to men t ion somet hi ng about another ma tter of' wat er con trol. Over the years I have always heard and we have ob served that in the area south of' Lake �hni toba, as f'ar sout h as Port age la Prairie that if' you get a prol onged hi gh north wind as follo w ing a pro lon ged hig h south wi nd , that you wi ll f'ind qu it e a dif'ference in the wat er level in the well . Now , Nr . Sp eaker, 25

that seems almo st unbelie vable but it has been ob served over the years in our

part icular area, and it- seems to me , Mr . Sp eaker, that one of the big thin gs that should be loo ked after in this Provinc e, and we have now a report here wh ich is very compr ehen sive , the Lake Winnipeg and Nanit oh a $oard Reoort , it 1s very com prehensive , there 's a lo t of info rm at�on in it. but rather strang ely in that

part icular report. I do n 't thin k there's very mu ch reference to the benefi t s that Lake Hanit ob a has on the agricultural area extending back fro m the la ke to th e south. The pro blems here, that they have dealt wi th are mor e

part icularly tho se of th e area directly surroundin g the mar gin of th e lake . And those are prob lems , of course, and oart i cularly they ap pear to be probl ems at th e time of hi gh wat er, wh ile peoole crowd in in the dry years , then wh en it becomes wet they say well th e water shouldn 't come back there and it seems to be that

part icular pr obl em th at focus es the attenti on of peo ple , mor e

part icula rly , on the fluctu ation of th e lake. But I ventu re to say, Mr. Sp eaker, and I th ink this view is held by a good many people in Mariitoba , in this central pa rt of the pr ov ince and by some people who have li ved many year s close to the lake, I venture to say this, Mr . Speaker, th at the re would be fa r mor e dam age , and far mor e loss , th rough out that port ion, all of th e central po rtion of Manit ob a , if Lake Man ito b a were to recede a great deal mo re or dry up , whi ch is not a rem ot e po ssibili ty , Mr .

Sp eaker, wit h the tr end • .If it were, I th ink th e effect on that who le area would be muc h mo re detrement al and a great deal mo re lo ss than any hig h wat er has ever done durin g my li fet ime . Mr . Sp eaker , I th ink that one of th e th ings that we should be pa rticularly concerned about in Man it oba , is th e conservation of water .

And I th ink that I would expect to spea k a litt le mor e on the pa rticular proble m wit h regards to th e lake and the con trol on th e lake on th e resolu tion wh ich I see is on th e Order Pap er; I had int ended to do it now , but I th ink that I should leave that for a lit tle later on, but I did want to me ntion what I thin k is a serio us pr os pect of the lAke receding fu rther tha.n it has at the pr esent time . I think in

part icular of an elderly gentl eman wh o has been well acquain ted v-lit.h Lake Manit oba fo r , Oh, I don 't know how many years, well over seventy, in th e oerson of Dr . Cadham , Sr ., and he tells me th at during his lifet ime , he can go to plac es in that le.ke., many plac es in th at lake, wh ere the bo tto m of th e lake has built up , and where there is not nearly th e same depth of water th at there were some years ago .

And he said , in his op inio n , and this is backed up by some of the fis herme n who have fi shed on the lake over a goodly numb er of years, that th e lake is gra dually becoming shallo wer . And I thin k , Mr. Sneaker, that while thi s resolut ion wh ich is on the Order Paper and a great deal of thought and a gr eat deal of this report deals wit h th e ma tter of control at the lo wer end of the lake, control of the out flo w. Mr .

Sp eaker, I don 't th ink the pr oblem is so pa rti cularly the one wit h regard to out flo w, but I thin k the big proble m is, where are you goin g to get any wa ter put into it'l Tliat 1s the pr ob lem. The re 's not , there have be en tim es, Mr . Spe aker, back in the early fo rti es, wh en the lake was down pr etty nearly to th e level that it is at thP. pr esent time , 26

when there wa s hardly any water flo win g out at Fairfo rd, hardly any water fl owin g out at Fairfo rd, and yet the lake is recedin.!!. becaus e th e evaporation on thAt large exp anse of water is so gr eat, that it tat.es a lot of wat er comin g in to offse t the evap orat ion dur ing the sum mer mon th s . Well, Mr . Sp eaker, I thin k one of the bi g pr obl ems is to get water into it , and I not ice in here they have the reference to the Assinaboi ne Riv er and the diversion from the Assinaboi ne River . We ll , Mr .

Sneaker, I thin k that when you lo ok at it and read it , you will fin d that th e wat er that wo uld be diverted fro m the Assinaboi ne Riv er to Lake :Ma nitoba would , I'm not sure, I wo uldn 't li ke to qu ot e it other than I thin k that they say would increase the level nrobably an inch ••••• it ' s very , very li ttl e , prob ably abou t equiva lent of two days evapor ation in th e sum mer . Th ey fi gur e th at it wi ll evaporat e about a half an inc h a day in th e mi ddle of th e sum mer , in the heat of the s umm er. No·w, Mr .

Speaker , the po int that I would li ke to mak e with regard to the Assinaboin e River, I do n't th ink that the diversion is wor th th e paper that they have drawn the plan on , becaus e they fin d that when you want th e water in to Lake Ma nit ob a as now , there isn 't any water in the river . The re isn't any there that you could put over , Th ere isn 't any mor e than a trickle comin g down the Assinabo ine Riv er now .

And so I thin k that th e tro uble wi th the Assinabo ine Riv er is , mak ing a diversion fro m it , that the time wh en you don 't want the water in the lake pr obably there 's lot s in the ri ver and the time you want lots of water in to the lake there isn 1 t any in th e river to send ov er, I th ink there are other sources .and I wo uld sp eak a li ttl e mo re on it a li ttle later on, on the other resolu ti on, but I do th ink that it is a very impo rtant thin g , not wi th reg ard to fi shinP, not wit h regard to summer resorts, or any of those things , but wi th regard to the eff ect that larg e bo dy of wat er has on the surroun ding area, and I say on all sides of th e lake, the eff ect that it ha s on that , by way of havin g mo istu re there, and it seems to me that it is one of the mo st im portan t assets there is in the Pr ovin c e of J:vlanitoba and I th ink it shou ld be prot ected , and I th ink that th e wo rk on the Assinaboi ne Riv er should be pu shed ahead if at all po ssible by way of a dam , in order to be assured that the mark e t for thos e agr icult ural pr oducts will be conti nued • .MR.

K. ALEXAN DER .(Roblin ) : J:vir. Spea ker, I agree in pa rt, wi th th e sentiment s echoed by the Honoura ble Memb er fro m Car ill on when he states that po ssibly this pa st pr ovin cial election was fo ught wi th a little bit of federal amu nit ion, becaus e I can re mem ber Lib erals goin g up and dow n th is prov inc e fro m one end to the ot her saying : Don 't vot e fo r the Cons ervative s, they 're in to o strong in Otta·wa, we don 't v\rant a sweep in Ma nit oba and they knew very well that the strengt h in Ottawa had not hi ng to do wit h th e strengt h of the Cons ervativ es in Jvlanitoba .

And I think po ssibly th at camp aig n had a li ttle bit to do with th e fact that we have a minor ity govern ment on thi s side of the House . And regardless of l\!r. Swaile s, th e Hono urable Mem ber f'or Assinibo ia says , I thin k po ssibly we could have a lot better gov ernme nt if we had twic e as many Cons ervativ es on this si de as we 1ve got now. Thli ce as go od a gov ernmen t . (I nterupt ion ) I think I wi ll see that 27

we have twic e as ma ny on this side as wh at we have now in the ·.Hous e that com es, if we have an election in the mean time . (Inter jection ) I beg yo ur pardon, Sir . Comp ared to what we 1ll get af ter . wards, I af1:ree wit h you. I was very surp rised to fin d the Honou rable Leader of the 'Oppos it ion mo vi ng this amendm ent in the .terms that he did . ·I would li ke to take him back to a meet ing in the constituen cy of Roblin , in the town of Rob lin, this snring .

I for get the exact .date, but I 111 remin d him tha t it wa s the Liberal Nomina ting Con vention, for th e pu rpos e of nom inat ing a candidate� The Honour able Leader of the Oppo stion, or the Pr emie r, as he wa s then, was the gu est sp eaker . One of hi s then cabi net min isters wa s also pr esent , who was then representi ng the constituency . Also pr esent was the candidate who hope d to rep resent th e constituen cy, and I mu st say at that. me eting that there Wa.s po ssibly 450 people there. Mayb e I should expla in why 450 pe opl e in Roblin went to a Liberal me eting .

They weren 't all Cons ervatives , they proved that at the pol es, but there wa s 450 pe ople the re, and I thin k the fact of that a bit of curiosi ty on the fact th ere wa s a cab inet representative leaving th e constitu ency an d a lo t of pe op le wanted to know what was th e reaso n why ; and there wa s a lo t of curiosi ty seekers there to fin d out and hear wha t was go ing to be said . And I mu st admit that I was on e of th e curio us Cons erva tives th at was there.

Con servat ives , Pro g ressives if you want , my good neig hbou r, but , becaus e I, fo r two reasons , I want ed to hear the Prem ier of Ma nitob a was goin g to say . I had never had the ho nour of hearing him speak befo re, and I wanted.to take this op por tunity in my home to wn . And I also thought it vJas go ing to b�'an excellent op portu nity to hear the Liberal ag ricultu ral pr ogra m .

Here ".re had the Premier of th e Provin ce, here we had a cabinet minis ter rep resenti ng the constituenc y as another gue st speaker, and I th ought , what a wo nderful op por tu nity to fin d out what I'm goin g to have to fi ght agai nst this comin g camp aign . Well , ·I .fo und out .

That me eting lasted fro m rou ghl y eig ht o'clo ck, ,quarter aft er eight , I belie ve , it was calle d for ei ght , but it was goin g about qu arter after eight , ti ll a quart er to twelv e at night , and hon ou rable mem bers, there wa sn it one thing men ti oned during th at whole perio d abou t th e prob lems of ag riculture . I t is true that the Pr em ier claime d that he li t un Ma nitoba ; but that was in 19 48, I th ink that that ma in progra m go t �oin g.

And dur ing that whole Jengt h of time , we heard not hin g on either th e plat .for m of th at pa rty fo r the comin g election and that wa s his ma in sneech in the constituency of th e ho nourable memb er of th e opp osi ti on . Nothin g of thei r pl atfor m, not hing of the proble ms that were fac ing the farm ers at that ti me . Now we fi nd that to quo te "t hey ignor e the many oth er imm ediate and seri ous probl ems facing the farm ers of Manit oh a." Well , Mr .

Sp eaker, I don 't know whether the farming condit ion s in Manit oba have deteriorat ed so muc h this spr in g and this summ er; or has the Hon ourable Leader of the Oppo sit ion changed his min d in th e la st fev-.r month s . It is a gr eat change -- one way or the oth er. I thin k , Mr. Sp eaker , wh en we comp are that meet ing in Robl in and the feel ings that mem bers of th e Liberal pa rty had at that time on the pr oblems of agri cultu re, and take a look at th is 28

amendm ent, I do n't know who the ho nourab le me.l"!l.bers or the Hon our able Leader of the Onpo sit io n th inks he is fool ing . I can as sure him , howev er, th:=�t th is amendmen t is certain ly not go irig to fo ol th e farme rs of .1:-lanit oba on th e stand that the Lib eral party in the past has taken on th e pr obl ems of agri culture in th is pr ov- ince. MR . SP EAK ER : The qu estio n before the Hou se. MR. s. ROBER TS (La Verendrye): I haven't pr evio usl y had the op portun ity to congratula t e you , Sir , on your election to the hi gh of fi c e wh ich you now hold .

You hav e had and Pr obab ly wi ll have many mor e occasion s to fi nd fault with our ma nner of conduct ing our selves in th e House , but I '-'Tish you muc h lu ck, Si r, and I am sure yo u wi ll do your usual fin e jo b . I would li ke to congratula te the new gov ernme nt and al ready we have had clashes, we have had heated discuss ions but I am sure the First Mi nis ter hims elf and all the other mem bers of the. gov ernmen t wi ll be the fi rst to agr ee that we mus t have onpo sit ion for a go od go vernme nt to be health y .

I would li ke to cong ratul ate the mov er and seconder to the Thr one Sneech, gl ad the hon ourab le mem ber for Roblin got iri in time fo r me to con gratula te hi m fo r his fi ne address, and I am ple ased of cour se that he is a farmer, and I am always happy wh en a farm e r speaks up for the fa rm prov ince. Now , in this ame ndmen t to the Thr one Sp eech, I would li ke to , ju st li ke to, ju st br iefly poin t up some of the th in�s , some of the probl ems in ag ri culture and I wo uldn 1 t in any means try to poin t out th em al l because it 's impo ssible .

But some of th e gl ari ng th ings facin g the farr.l'>r today , the thi ng s wh ich this govern ment on the hust ings only a few mon ths ag o proc laimed th at they coul d fi x up .

And I don't know par ti cularly where to start but I could wi th all sin cerity start with the agr icultu ral credit pln n and congratula t e the · gove rnment for bringin g it in and once ag ain I 1m nerfectly si ncere when I say to the Honou rable Mini ster of Agr icultur e that I am pleas ed to hear that the resolu tion s wi ll be coming to us in commi ttee in a for m wh ich he feels is · better than the form th at it is in now and we will be mo st hanpy to support it when -- if it is in the fo rm that we feel is necessary, And I mo st sincerely hear that there wi ll be im pro v e me nt s ma de in the bill v.rhen it come s .to th e corrunittee .

Now , unf ortunately there are many , many ot her pr oblems fac ing the farme r to day, and unf ortun ately again these probl ems are not of his own mn Jdn g . The pr obl ems of the farme r are prob lems that are ma de off of th e farm er. They are pr ob lems not of his own oper a tion , but proble ms pa rticularly of his hig h cost, and the reasons for his hig h co st are not necessari ly of his own mak ing ; and in particular the ma in re asons for the hig h cost on the farm are decisions ma de ent irely away fro m th e farm .

And I can poin t out the mo st gl aring of all of the reasons for th e hig h cost to th e farme rs op e;('_ations , a,nd poin t it up as being that the pr ot ection gi ven to industry by' tarif fs . And I th ink that it is a very general stateme nt but it is nevertheless true that th e western farme r is at all ti me s in compet it ion wi th th e eastern ma nufa ct urer fo r the dol lar of th e im nort and export : And ma ny , ma ny estimat es have been gi ven as to th e amount of mone y th at the

tariff costs the peo ple of Canada each year in extra spendi ng a,nd I1m not sug gesting the farm ers , fa rm ers spend all th is, or even half of it , but nevertheless it 1s an astoun di ng fig ure and the estima tes come all the way from J400 ,0 00 ,000 to here I see in an

article by Blair Fraser in this is sue of lvlcLeans lviagaz ine , where he quot es Dr . John Young , a Cana dian economi st nov1 on th e facu lty of Yale Univ ersity, who calculates that the tariff adds H,O OO ,O OO , OOO a year to th e cost of li ving in Canada . And I say that wh ile this money naturally doesn 't al l wo rk back onto the farme rs extra costs but I suggest that a gr eat deal of it does .

The ma chinery the farm ers buy , too ls , equip me nt, the tires , no ma tter what it is he uses in the farmin � of his land -- all of it , the pri c� of it , is increased by the prot ection provi ded to the manufa ctur ing industri e s that ma nufacture these pr odu cts. And the ot her side, th e ot her hand of this pr obl em of tariff s, meanin g th at other countries can 't ship to th e Do minion of Canada the prod ucts th at they wi sh to ship to Canada because of · this tariff prot ection, me ans that th ey have not got the dollars to buy Canadi an pr oduce, wh eat , pork , beef .

They have no t got the dollars because they were not allo wed to sell in Canada suffi cient of thei r pro ducts and I think that we cannot underestima te the -- ov erestima te -- the costs, th e ob stacles plac ed by th e tariffs of this country . And th is , I sugge st , is one field where the Pr ov ince of lvianito ba , the gov ernme nt of Manit oba , thr ough representation to the Federal Go vernmen t could pr ess, pr ess fo r an easing of the trade which woul d ease the farm situ ation .

And I hope sincerely th e Go vern me nt of Manit ob a is contir,ually pr essing the Federal Gov ernme nt to keep th is flo w of cattle wh ich is goin g into The United States at the pr esent time a fr ee flo w, so that we do not do anythin g t0 th e Am eric an peoPle so th at th ey could come back on us and stop this won derful source of doll ars ...,. Am erican do lla rs - int o Ca nada in th e form of Canadian cattle . And then th ere is th e oth er subj ect that we heard so much abou t in th e hu stin gs , th e crop insurance pl an .

And I certain ly don 't need to tell the peop le of this Hou se th e value of crop in surance pl an becaus e we 've heard so mu ch of it . All I can say is we haven't seen it yet , haven 't seen any sign of it yet and we were pr omi sed it as so on as th e gover nment wa s elected .

I don 1 t need as I say , to give all th e reasons for th e need for crop in suranc e pl an , but I sugge st that the lack of stability on the Manit oba far m , th e pr oblem of continual Peril s of the eleme nt s beyond the farm ers' control , weather and th e li ke, is some thin g that is of treme ndous impor tance to the farm ers of l·•ianit oba .

And I sug gest that eith er th e Prov ince of Manit oba convince the Federal Gov ernmen t to establis h a pr oper crop insu ranc e pla n in M anit ob a or else they mu st the msel ves be wi ll ing , be prep ared to establish it , because they have pr om is ed it that we wo uld g�t it . And then we talk so muc h about th e pr ices that the farmers re ceive fo r th eir produ cts because we hav e fi nish ed - we have jus t considered th e cost that th e farme r wa s involved in as he pr od uces hi s pr oducts. The ot her half of the barga in of course is what pr ice does the farmer receive fo r his pr oducts?

Because if the fa rme r receives a suf ficien t pr ice fo r his pr oducts then of 30

course he can afford to pa y the hi gher costs wh ich he is bein g -- whi ch he is encount ering at the pr esent time . 'l;,,e all know that the costs have gon e up SO% on the farms in th e last seven or eight years ; at the same time , the pr ice of th e pr oducts that the fa rme r has been selling have remained abou t stable . \ve know that the Cons ervative Gov ernme nt at Ottawa , on the hu stings , as they were elected , told us of th e Pr ice Stabili zation Sill , of th e pr ice sup port wh ich they would enfo rce onc e they were elected. And now we should see this bi ll .

The ho nourab le me mb er fo r Fisher in his resolu ti on , wh ich unfor tu nately he wi thdrew th e other day, discussed , or me ntioned in the pr eamb le of the resolu tio n, how the pr ice of hogs doesn 't seem to have ri sen to o gr eatly wi th the new Pr ice Stabiliza tion Bill . I would ju st like to poin t out to the memb ers of this House another inc ident of how th e Pr ice Stabiliza tion Bi ll has affected the peop le of Man it oba . And I'm thin king, at the mom ent, of th e pr ice of eggs .

Now th is is one of the prod ucts that was brou ght int o the bill and wh en th e bill became -- took action on the pr ice of eggs -- set it s laws on the pr ice of eggs , -- it increased the pr ice of eggs three cents per dozen to the Ma ni toba farm er. At the time the bill -- befo r e the bi ll -- befo re the Con servatives were elected , the pr ice of eggs at the floo r pr ice here -- a year ago -- tw o years ago to day -- was 30 cents for "A" large and 28 cents fo r "A" me dium.

And so th e Cons er vative Gov ernme nt broadcast from Co ast to Coast , 11w-e are rais ing the pr ice of eg gs th ree cerits per dozen" . And now you look in the newspap er and see what th e pr ice of eggs is , - after they have raised the pric e of eg gs th ree cents per dozen. It is 31 cents for "A" large and from 21 to 23 cents a doze n fo r "A" med ium . Me aning on the usual pro port ion of eggs that the fa rmer man age s to ma rket fro m his flock, he has naturally a certain numb er of egg sma lls , me diums , cracks and so on, - but th e ma jo r ity of his eggs are "A" larg e and "A" me dium .

We will say the ratio is two to one , - t wo 11A11 large to one "An med ium . And at the old floor pr ice with th e pr ice of eggs at 30 cents a dozen· for 11A11 large and 28 cents a doze n fo r "A" me diurp., if he had ma rketed tw o doze n of "A'1 large and one of "A" medi um, his aver age pri c e wo uld be 29 1/3 cents per doze n fo r his eggs .

But now , wit h the new bi ll 23 7, th e Stabil iza tion Bill whi ch wa s to in crease th e price of eggs , if you ma rket still two do ze n of "A" large and one dozen of "A " med ium, you r average pr ice would be 28 cents a doz en, 1 1/3 cents per do ze n less than he V>rould hAve received under th e ol d no good pr ice suppor t act. And so I suggest , has th is go vernme nt lo oked int o the th ing? Has it taken action ? Has it ma de repr esentation to Ottawa as to the situat io n as it exists? Do es this gov ernme nt know wh ere the three cents per doz en increase in fl oo r pr ice went?

And this is one of the things which I feel that this govern men t , in all hon est, to the fa rm ers of Ma nito ba , should bri ng in to atiy Spe cial Session ·f)f this Hou se. I don 't want to go on wi th any fu rther po ints, Mr . Speaker, but I would li ke to sugge st th is . Th is go verm nent is at thi s time , in this Session, this Snecial Session , ignor ing �11 except one of the ma jor pro blems affect ing our ag ricult ural eco nomy . 31

MR. R.W.Bend (Rockwo od-Ibervi ll e): Mr. Speaker, sin ce it mi gh t be th at I did not sneak on the Thr on e Speech it self , I would lik e to ta ke th is oo oo rtun it y of congratu latin g you , Sir , on your electio n ro th e high office that you hold , th e hig hest of fice that this Hous e can gi ve . I thin k it is a tr ibu te , Sir , to the years of fait hfu l service that you have rendered to your const ituency; and certain ly I, for one , conq;ratulate you mcs t sin cerely, and I hop e that you wi ll fi nd your new duties pleasant ones indeed.

I wou ld like to congratul ate as well , lv'lr • Sn eaker, the Mover and th e Secon der in re ply -- for their address in reply to the Soeech from the Thron e . In the case of the Mov er, I know exactly how he felt , becaus e it wasn't too long ago si nc.e I, Sir , had th e pleasure of takin g pa rt in the same way in th is Hous e. And certain ly his chore was even mu ch mo re diffi cult than mine , because of the fa ct th at he had ma ny mo re people and gu ests, and · certain ly I th ought he conducted him self in a way that was a credit to this Hous e. I also wi sh to congratulat e, as I say, th e Seconder.

I was not surpr ised , because I knew the ho noura ble gentl eman had not on ly experi ence as a pr iv ate mem ber, but as well , exoerience as a Cabin et Min ister, and so, as I say, I exp ected hi s address to be a go od on e and I wa sn't disap poin ted. I wo uld li ke, Sir , to congratu late as we ll th e Ho nourable the Prem ier . I know he ribbed me go od-naturedly the other night wh en I was out of my pl ace in the Hous e, sitt ing back in this very seat , and he referred to me as a ''back-bencher" or some such term in a frien dly way, of cours e. But I woul d lik e to draw to his ------� HOU.

DUFF ROBLIN ( Pr em ier ): I just said you weren 't in your usual seat , the seat you are in now. lv'�. BE ND : Well, I th ink there was a li ttle in sinuat ion. I didn 't mind it a bi t - because I'd like to draw his . att enti on to the fa ct th at that 's th e seat I believe he started from. MR. ROBLIN : A very good seat too .

don 't need to dwell very lon g . In noin t of servi ce he is the mo st seni or mem ber in the Hous e, and wh en he was ta lkin g abou t takin g the resoonsi bi lit y for th e loss, I want to assure him pu blic ly that he ne edn't feel th at way at al l.

In this dem ocracy of our s if the day ever come s when we can't go out in the country and put fort h what we th ink is ri ght , and both sides of th e Hous e fi ght a battl e , go down wit h flags flyin g, ei ther one way or the other - then it wi ll be a so rry day indeed for democra cy as we know it , and he need ap ol og ize not one whit for th e battle he put up . And so, Mr . Sn eaker --Oh, on e mo re th ing --I would like to congratul ate all the new Me.m bers in th e Hous e.

Of course, I am not a senio r Mem ber, but still I have seen three Hous es, and I know th ose three, and I wo uldn 't won der but what thi s stateme nt · cou ldn 't be ma de equa lly trut hful of ma ny Houses - that I haven 't seen, or it hasn't se en, as ma ny new able Mem bers come in, and I refer to all si des--all polit ical Parties . Pow erful addition s have been made as has been demon strated here in a very sh ort Sessio n bv new-come rs coming in from all

Part ies and acquitt ing them selves well . And It hin k that that stateme nt cannot be contradict ed an d certain ly it is one , at least , that has imp ressed me . To the new Min ister of Health and Welf are. I wa s pl eased ag ain that th ings weren 1 t qu ite as bad as they were, be cause we still have a Liberal , I beli eve, as the Mi ni ster of Health and Pub lic Welf are. How ever, I wou ld li ke to say th is , th at he wi ll not ice that I have not criticized him in any way, th is Session .

I ca n rem em ber only ·t oo well si tting there - lack of exnerience -w ith three heavy departm e nt s - because that is what they are and he knows it as well . The re is health ; there is welfa re; there is ho so itali zat io n. And I know that hi s ti me is well taken up in deed. And so, be li eve it or not , when Id rove by th e other night and to ok a short-cut through here, qu ite late, and I saw his car sitt ing out th ere, and I th ought , "W ell , gee , isn 't it nice to be able to drive right on hom e" .

And so, to the other new Mem bers as well , as he him self , I congratulat e th em on comin g up to th e fron t benches . It is an onerous duty and a respon sible po siti on, and one , I th ink, which carries wi th it a great deal of satisf action in th e work that you are able to do for your fel low-citizen s . And so I wi ll not prof ess that I wi ll al ways ag ree wi th th e st eps th at you take, but I will say this mu ch, that af ter having been th ere just a wee whi le , I know the probl ems and the di fficult ies you fa ce. And now, Sir , it is not my pu rp ose to sneak very lon g .

And indeed we have sp oken at considerable lengt h in th e va rio us stands that we have ta ken in th is Hous e. But I think the record--and I would like espec ially now that we have a Hansard and that we can put on the record and even take a copy home wi th us -- and as the Hon ourable Mem ber fro m Mo rris says , "keep it for our mem ories ''- that I wo uld like to be quit e clearly on record where I stand as an indi vi dual and where our Part y stands as was mu ch mo re ably stated by my fried and colleague , th e Hon oura ble Memb er from Car il lon .

I don 't believ e that a person should sit in th is H0us e ten 33

mi nut es lon ger tp�n he thin ks the ma jo rity of the people at home don 't want him here. I th ink that dem ocracy de pen ds upon th e fa ct that the me m bership of this House should reflect as accurately as po ssible the feelings of the peop le back home . And as far as I'm con cerned in suppor tin g this ame ndme nt , and if it me ans an election, that is n't the pr oblem that faces my self as an indiv idual . I know trat the Honourab le the Leader of the Hous e, the new Prem ier has sa!id, "If you have a new election, see where you 'll be" . Maybe that 's so. I know that our frien ds to the lef t , Mr.

Sneaker, have said "N ow you know what it me ans -and if it is an election you wi ll come ba ck here a lo t wo rse off than we are" . In fact they have been so uncharitable as to sugge st that ma ybe when they said that "y ou" th ey me ant it , not me pers on ally , but the Party. Well , ma ybe that 's so, but is that th e im portan t is sue , J'.Ir. Sp eaker. I don 't thin k it is , at 'ill. I thin k th e im por tant is sue is this - and I wo ul dn 't want to thin k on th e other hand or anyone to thin k that we are criticiz ing, as we have done th e pa st few days, just to be obstru ctio us .

I beli eve that if you take the sp eeches from this side of th e Hous e, su re, I don 't pro fess to say th at they were all ma sterpieces, but certainly in th ose sp eeches you could fin d, I th ink, an idea , a sugg estion . I hop e a constructi ve one . You wi ll not ice that when we had sa id our pie ce, Mr. Speaker, an d wh en we had ma de it perfectly clear, what we th ough t , th 'lt the Bills went on thei r way. I do not expect, or indeed, ma.ybe we wouldn 1t be ri ght , or it woul dn 't be ri ght if we ·had wo n every poin t , l:Ecaus e ma ybe, indeed, we could have been wrong in some .

But if we we re, it was not because we knew we were . It was because we tho ught our critici sm s were ju stified . Now let 1 s ta ke a loo k at the two ame ndme nt s that were pla ced before thi s Hou se . I am not goin g to go into th e ty pe of sp eech th at I might have if the Ho nourable Mem ber from Ca rillon hadn 't already ma de the poin t s that Ivvuld have wanted to establ ish, in his own way, far superior to the one I could have, and so I wi ll content mys elf wit h sp eaking only briefly , and on ly saying this ; I ask any ho nourable me m ber to read th e ame ndme nt that we have pr op osed .

Was that pr op osed in order that certain th ought in this House because of a certain pa rty po licy could not support it? vvas it fr 'imed in any way that anyone could say '1Well here is a ma tter of prin cip le I can't go alon g wi th" . Certa in ly we know the Go vernment can 1t go alon g with it . We know that . I'm not sp eaking about that . Is there anythin g there?

It ways we regret th at \ITith re:�ard to agr icultur e, Ma nit oba 's basi c industry, th e Sp eech fro m th e Th ron e ref ;rs to on e mat ter only and i,gnores the ma ny oth er imm ediat e and serious probl ems that are facing the farme rs in th is Provin ce. Mr . Sp eaker, it was my good for tu ne to do a great de al of ca mp aig ning , as mu ch as one could do .

And we ran into this criticism and I fe lt it when a pe rson would say to me , "Y ou are do ing nothin g for th e farm ers. �i/ha t are you doin g? 11 And I used to say , 11Well it mu st never be forgo tten tl1at a Provin ce, Prov i ncial Govern me nt , cannot do what a Federal G.Jvern men t can11 • No , you are pa ssing the buck. 'V'/hat about pr ices for our goods . What a bout the fact that everything we buy is !�oin� up and everythin g we have to se ll is eith er 34

r.old ing even or goin g down. vvhy don 't you boys do some thing a bou t that . V'{hy don 1t you do some thin g about crap in surance. Vie felt then, and we still do , that crop in suranc e on a pr ovin cial scale on ly was no other wi der base to vrork fro m . We do not believe it can \\Tork on a vo lun t3.ry ba sis . I am not goin g into a lon g discus sion why. We felt th at way then; we feel that way now . How ever, the Honoura ble the First Mini 0ter and his colleagues said qu ite clearly , !tVJe th ink we can do so me thin g about th is . No , we not on ly th ink we can, we know we can" .

All right , th e argu ment waxed qu it e strong and there were ot her it ems I'm not goin g to me ntion at the pr esent ti me . And the election saw th e ••• • ••• of the Con servative Part y with mo re Membe rs . Now t hen, we were havin g a Spe cial Session. Woul dn 't it be ri ght and pr op er when during that wh ole cam pa ign the po int was ma de th at so me thin g could be done at a Provin cial level for the farm po siti on? Woul dn 't it be rig ht and pr op er to se e that pr og ram here?

Sur e we were ready to c ome in and say "W ell , you didn 1t do it 11 • But we expected to see what we had heard so mu ch ab.out. I am not goin g to belittle the Bill that you put here. Not a bit . But I am goi ng to ma intain that that is not the mo st serious problem that th e fa rmer has . And I know I have agreed wi th my leader ma ny ti m es, but I never was more in agre eme nt wi th him when he said this , rrisn 1t the ma in thing to try and put the farmer in a po siti on where if he borro ws mon ey, some day he can pay it back.

Isn 't the main pr oblem th at fa ces him is to put him in a posi tion where he can ·expect to go ahea d" . Where is crop insurance, where are the other thin gs that sp eakers on that si de of th e House said could be done and should be done . Well , may be , ma yb e indeed the other side of the argume nt is th is - we didn 't have ti me . You can't expect us to do al l that . But I haven't heard it sai d thou·gh , in this Session. And so th ere is our ame ndme nt .

Exactly what we feel - that in the lig ht of what was said in the election cam pa ign - in th e li ght of th e criticism s that were levell ed a.t us , because we did not do t his or we did not do th 3.t. And in the li ght of I th ink as far as defin it e prom ises that th e new Go vernment could and wo uld do any of those thin gs that we were un able to do . And so here is our ame ndment . And if any Mem ber sitt ing to the left of me can say where th ere is any pr inciple in th at ame ndment that he cannot support , I wo uld like to know what it is - because it just ,isn't th ere.

I'm not go ing to qu ot e speeches that were ma de. You don 't need to go back any fu rther than wh en the Hon ou rable Leader of the C.C.F. Part y sp oke on th is and poin ted out that he wasn 't sati sfied ,,fith th e farm prog ram . (conti nued on next page ) 35

HR . BEND ( Cont'd ) : vJhat about th e amendment he br ought int o this House - and said why it's all right for you over th ere to yell about this and that - why didn't you suppor t our amend ment '? \'Jell cer tainl y the ins inu ation wa s there . Now th en , Mr . Speaker , could you honestl y expect members of this group to sup por t th at res olution? Could you honestl y ex pect , whe n you had at le ast five parts to it , that yo u might go down and say , "Well , I'l l take one and I'll take two, and I'll take part of th ree.

But ce rta inly th ere would be one there th at th ere wa s a fund amental dif ferenc e between the two schools of th ought . There is no fundamental di ffer ence in thw tw o schools of thou ght in our amendment . When the charge was levelled agai nst it as being a pho ney amendment - is it phoney to say th at there ar e many oth er immediate and seri ou s pr oblem s facing agriculture in th is Prov ince '( Is that pho ney? The re, Ivlr. Speaker is th e di ff erenc e between th e two amend ment s we are faced "lllit h.

I have no hesitati on and no tr ouble at all suppor ting the one that' s in fron t of us now ; but I cer ta inly could not support the other amendment - and there is n't an honoura ble member in this House that does n't know why I couldn 't supp ort it. hR . B. CORB E TT ( Swan River ) : Mr . Speaker , in line wi th ordinary proc ed ure , I am very plea sed to co ngratulate you on your elevation to the speaker ship of this House . I am sure you wi ll do honour to th e po si ti on and al so bring honour to th is as sembly chair by occupying that posi ti on .

I al so wi sh to con gratulate the mov� r of th e add res s repl y , of th e ad dre ss to the throne , who happens to be in a neighbo ring cons tituenc y of mine , and natura lly , being in such cl ose prox imity to my con st itu ency , he must be a good citizen as well as a very able speak er . And I al so wi sh to congratul ate the hono urable member for St. Mat thews for his in spiring seco nding of th at addr ess .

I could go on and con grat ulate you co nsi der ably , and that is a very good way of putting in ti me , I believe - congratulat ing peo ple rather than commiserating with them , or rev il ing th em. But as you're supposed to say something when you get up here that means someth i ng , well I wi ll cea se the co ngratu lation s I believe it is usual to give a more or le ss ent husi astic eulogy of th e di st rict from which you come · fro m .

We ll, I have been adv ised in my younger day s th at a good debat er doe sn't need le ssly reiterate a well known fact , or a cer ta in fact , so I will ta king advan tage of that sage advice - I will pa ss lig htl y on the merit s of my own constit uency by merely sta ting what is an esta blish ed fact ; that th e Swan River Valley is th e fin es t di st rict in Canada , combining as it does , great ferti lity wi th great beauty , wi th maximum fe rti lity , and which ha s bee n splend idly dev eloped by a ve ry fine cl as s of resi dent s.

As st ated be fore, th is is a well es ta bl ish ed fact , and I will modestl y ref rain fro m any fur ther elaborat ion . I might say, th at I wa s rath er surprise d when the honour able member for Fis her gave us such a glo omy pict ure of his co nst i tuenc y . I have happened at va rious ti mes to be �p in that cons tituenc y and I thoug ht it wa s a ve ry fine countr y . And , Mr . 36

Sp eaker, he almo st had me in tears when he tol d me of the dep ressed condit ion of the pe op le , the water level , and I don't know what all , I couldn 't rememb er it all - but it was very sad. And I mus t say 1that it wa s wi th some diffidence that I rose to sp eak.

Dur ing the few days that I have had the plea sure of si tting in this Hou se, of occupying a seat in this Hou se, I hav,e lis tened with some awe - in fact I'v e been fr ig htened - by the various rules on pa rli amen tary pr ocedure as quoted fro m the various wri tten authoriti es, and elaborated and confi rmed, and compo unded some times too , by the vario us experts sitt ing on both sides of the Hou se.

And I had some grave mis givin gs that if I op ened my mouth to sp eak that I mig ht be , me tep ho ricall y speaking, put ti ng my foot in it , and be strictly disciplined for breaking some of the rules of parl iame ntary pro cedure. How ever, Mr . Sp eaker, I am treading li ghtl y and carefull y so as _to try not to of fend . I mig ht say, Mr . Sp eaker, th at man y th ings I have listen ed to ha ve been enlig htening , and also surp risi ng.

I believ e in the fiel d of letters that the unauth orized cop yi ng of arti cles of copy ri ght ed lit eratur e is - of any sort - is called plag iarism, I thin k that is the wa y to pr onou nce it - I'm not sure of it - And if convicted of such

an act, a perso n can be penal ize d by law qu ite severely . From my observations in lis tening in this House , I'm alway s ready to believ e that the Ho nou rable Leader of our Party and his Cabin et, and the bound s of his hum bl e sup port ers have been gu ilty of somethin g clos ely al ike to plag iarism . A large par t of the legisl�tion now before us , according to var ious honou rable memb ers of th e Opp osi ti on, was conceived in the hearts and minds of those now in Opp osi ti on, and only required a li ttle more time to be brou ght into the li g ht of day .

Unfor t unately , the electors of th e pr ovinc e, on June 16th, af ter wa it ing man y years for the lion to bring forth some thing gr eater than a mou se, pr evented the fo rmer govern me nt from put ti ng int o effe ct the legi slation no w before the Hou se. I am afraid that there is no leg al redress that the late governmen t can ob tain, but I 'm ple ased to observe that they are not entirely re pudiat ing · the pr esent legisl ation wh ich they have fath ered. I was listen ing wi th some interest to the hon ou rable memb er from Car illon .

He want back into the old days , whe n I wa s a yo ung boy , and there was a certain gentleman in the Hou se, who is now deceased, fo rwhom I had a gr eat adm irat ion - that was the Ho nour able Albert Prefon tain e , who I believ e wa s the father of the pr esent memb er of C arillon . The only po int that I've no ti ced about him was at the time I admire d him so greatly , I believe he was sitting on the Conser vative side of the Hou se .

I also heard him take considera�le credit for bringing into effe ct, and that the Li beral party had brought int o effect the hydro and telep h ones, and some oth er things . But I beli eve, if my recollectio n serves me ri ght , and it 's a pretty fa ir recoll ecti on, alt houJh I'm getting kin d of grey haired and a little weak in th e knees. But I believe , lvlr. Sp eaker, th at th e hydro wa s developed by a farm er's non-pa rti san party in th e first pl ace. It later on, sort of slip ped a lit tle I gu ess, and has since - I wa s go ing to say degenerated, but I gue ss that 's not a pa rliame

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	25-1-7b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	25th 1st hansardpdf 7b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a576dfb3a8c11094201f9338e26b096966b6f41f

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).