Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 55B (42nd Legislature, 5th Session)

42-5-55b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session – Forty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXVII No. 55B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 16, 2023 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-Second Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALTOMARE, Nello Transcona NDP ASAGWARA, Uzoma Union Station NDP BRAR, Diljeet Burrows NDP BUSHIE, Ian Keewatinook NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy Kildonan-River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Roblin PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GORDON, Audrey, Hon. Southdale PC GUENTER, Josh Borderland PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah, Hon.

Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek, Hon. Interlake-Gimli PC JOHNSTON, Scott, Hon. Assiniboia PC KHAN, Obby, Hon. Fort Whyte PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLEIN, Kevin E., Hon. Kirkfield Park PC LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Tyndall Park Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas-Kameesak NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Malaya Notre Dame NDP MARTIN, Shannon McPhillips PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice, Hon.

Seine River PC MOSES, Jamie St. Vital NDP NAYLOR, Lisa Wolseley NDP NESBITT, Greg, Hon. Riding Mountain PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle, Hon. Turtle Mountain PC REDHEAD, Eric Thompson NDP REYES, Jon, Hon. Waverley PC SALA, Adrien St. James NDP SANDHU, Mintu The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron Springfield-Ritchot PC SMITH, Andrew, Hon. Lagimodière PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Vérendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC TEITSMA, James, Hon. Radisson PC WASYLIW, Mark Fort Garry NDP WHARTON, Jeff, Hon.

Red River North PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC Vacant Morden-Winkler

2379 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 16, 2023 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker: Good afternoon, everybody. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Madam Speaker: Introduction of bills? Com mittee reports? Tabling of reports? Ministerial statements? MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Matthew and Shawn Thompson Hon. Janice Morley-Lecomte (Minister of Mental Health and Community Wellness): Madam Speaker, Matthew and Shawn Thompson are siblings who attend St. Norbert Collegiate and have been actively involved in sports for the last nine years.

Their love of sport and dedication to being the best in their field have earned them positions in their respective sports to represent Manitoba at the North American Indigenous Games in Halifax this July. Matthew will be graduating high school this year and will be attending North Dakota Williston State College baseball program in the fall. He started play- ing baseball at the community club level at the age of eight. At the age of 11, Matthew began playing AAA baseball for the south Winnipeg wolverines. He has competed competitively in Grand Forks, Fargo and Minneapolis.

Matthew excels as an outfielder, and in the last few years has also started pitching. Matthew attended Home Run Sports academy fall and winter programs, which led him to participate in the Canada Summer Games for Team Toba last year. Matthew tried out for the North American Indigenous Games and, as they say, the rest is history. Shawn has also enjoyed playing baseball. After playing at the comm unity club level for a couple years, he tried out for the south Winnipeg Wolves AAA team and played there for four years. This year he decided to devote his time to basketball at the South Winnipeg Community Centre.

Shawn, at six foot tall and only 15, practises three times a week and plays at the elite level with the Attack Basketball Club. Shawn's exceptional skills have earned him a position to represent Manitoba at the North American Indigenous Games. I would like to welcome Matthew and Shawn to the gallery and ask my colleagues to join me in wishing them all the best as they represent Manitoba in Halifax this summer. Book Banning MLA Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): It's outrageous that in 2023 we find ourselves standing up against book banning in Manitoba. But here we are.

The removal of books from libraries, schools and other public spaces because someone doesn't like the ideas within those books is a dangerous practice that has no place in Manitoba. There's a strong connection between book banning and the rise of fascism. Fascism attempts to control the flow of information to shape public opinion. This involves the banning of books, newspapers, and other forms of media deemed to be subversive or dangerous. Book banning is a tool of oppression. It is a way for the small minority to control narrative and shape public opinion to suit their own worldview.

In this case, it's against 2SLGBTQIA that con - tinues to face discrimination, censorship and erasure. As allies, it is our responsibility to s tand up for, and with, the community. That means actively work- ing to dismantle systems of oppression that lead to discrimination, which includes book banning, seeking to erase the existence of 2SLGBTQIA peoples. We, as legislators, must stand up against book banning. This means speaking out when books are being challenged or removed from public spaces and sup- porting libraries and schools and their staffs. It is so disappointing to see this Premier (Mrs.

Stefanson) stand against the human rights of certain Manitobans. It's cowardice to stand by while library–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. MLA Fontaine: –and school staff are called pedophiles and groomers. That is not leadership–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. MLA Fontaine: –and that's not a leader for all Manitobans. Our NDP team supports our schools and libraries– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired.

2380 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 St. James Canucks Hon. Kevin E. Klein (Minister of Environment and Climate): Today, I rise to celebrate the St. James Canucks, for their outstanding achievements this season. The St. James Canucks have consistently demon- strated their teamwork, determination and resilience, which led them to a historic run and a second con- secutive championship. The team has shown great integrity, respect and fair play on and off the ice, which make them role models for young hockey players in our com munity.

The support of fans, families and volunteers has been instrumental in the success of the St. James Canucks. Let me mention just some of the milestones achieved by the team members: capturing their second straight championship, sweeping the St.

Vital Victorias last month; defenceman Rory Neill playing 114 games over two years with 88 goals and 194 points , to be named MVP for the '22- 23 seas on; forward Tyrone Willan won the scoring title in '22-23 with 91 points; captain Kale Price had 63 goals and 159 points in his 87-game regular season, plus 15 goals and 48 points in the playoffs –15 of the goals were game winners; defenceman braid–Brady Whitely racked up 124 points in 103 games; goaltender Noah Gilbert had, in the last two seasons, a .912 save percentage and a 2.53 goals- against average.

And one player mentioned to me that we missed on the list that I want to make sure we include is Magnum Glendale [phonetic]. He mentioned that he scored 60 goals in practice, and some of them actually had a goalie in the net. So, we want to make sure we mention him. Head Coach Blair Mooney picked up his 200th win in the team–with the team and, since his takeover, the team has won two championships. I would ask the members of this Chamber to join me in showing our gratitude to the St. James Canucks and congratulating them on a successful season. St.

James Canucks team roster: Players: Tristen Arnason, Troy Borthistle, Aiden Bruce, Liam England, Noah Gilbert, Zachary Greenwood, Magnum Grindle, Griffin Haight, Liam Johnson, Matthew Mason-Vandel, Dylan Morden, Rory Neill, Caden Ostermann, Jacob Phillips, Kale Price, Layne Richardson, Ethan Robson, Ashton Romaniuk, Jarrett Ross, Matthew Smith, Trent Thorsteinson, Brady Whitely, Tyrone Willan, Cole Younger.

Coaches and Managers: Justin Steeves, president and GM; Gavin Mclachlan, vice-president/treasurer; Mike Mooney, Jerry Jones, business operations; Kyle Brazeau, assistant GM; Sean Martin, hockey operations; Blair Mooney, head coach; Blake Harris, Jordan Mikkelson, Mike Sigfusson, Scott Forcand, assistant coaches; Kira Putnam, Dakota Bruneau- Bushie, athletic therapists; Brandon Hughes, equipment manager. Danielle Adams Mr. Ian Bushie (Keewatinook): I rise today with a heavy heart. I chose today, with my final member's statement of this session, to lift up our colleague, our sister, our friend, Danielle Adams.

Danielle was one of us and will forever remain a part of who we are as legislators here in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, as we come to the end of this legislative session, I think of members past and present who, on their own terms, have chosen to retire and move forward to begin new chapters in their liv es, with everyone hoping to spend more time with family. Madam Speaker, our sister, Danielle, did not have that opportunity. Danielle did not have the oppor tun- ity to say goodbye to her family, her friends and her loved ones.

She gave her life in the hopes of making Manitoba a better place for her family, for Thompson and for all of us. Madam Speaker, the life of a politician is not just a job, it is a lifestyle, and we should all look up to the life of Danielle. Her passion, her commitment and her dedication to family should be something we all aspire to emulate. Sometimes in politics, it's not about what you can do, but sometimes it's about what you've already done. And in her short time with us, Danielle accomplished so much. Madam Speaker, I ask the questions: Did she show us how great her potential was?

Did we get to see how bright our future would be with her as a com- munity leader? Did young Danielle, that overcame so many barriers and challenges in her life, make the most of her time here on Earth? And I say a resounding, yes. Danielle left a legacy that she would be proud of and her husband, her children and her family can be extremely proud of as well. Family was everything to Danielle. Even while working and focusing on her role here in the Legislature, Danielle always thought

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2381 of her family, especially her husband, Bill, and her sons, Nic and Joe. In fact, Madam Speaker, most conversations with Danielle, no matter what the subject would have been, would have always had a reference to my boys. On behalf of myself, all of my colleagues here in the Chamber and all Manitobans, I want to thank her husband, Bill, her sons, Nic and Joe, for sharing your partner and your mom with all of us.

Madam Speaker, as much as I began by rising with a heavy heart, I end by saying how much more complete my life and the lives of all Manitobans is for having been graced with Danielle's presence and influence. Madam Speaker, I ask my colleagues to join me for a moment of silence for Danielle. While she may not be physically here with us in the Chamber, she is absolutely with all of us here in the Chamber. We love you, Danielle. Miigwech. Madam Speaker: Is there leave for a moment of silence? [Agreed] Please stand. A moment of silence was observed. * (13:40) Allied Health Professionals Ms.

Cindy Lamoureux (Tyndall Park): Four days ago, the Manitoba Nurses Union stood outside the Legislature calling for better health care, more nurses, better supports and less clowning around by this government. Earlier today, there was a rally outside the Legislature for allied health. They highlighted the action that needs to be taken immediately and how fixing the staffing crisis begins by negotiating a fair contract with allied health professionals, who have been without a fair contract since 2017. No wonder why health- care retention is such an issue here in the province of Manitoba.

A new, com - petitive contract with a fair salary and good benefits will significantly help attract and retain health -care professionals, and these are just two examples of health- care groups over the last four days that demonstrate the dire need of changes that need to be made to our health-care system. Health-care workers have been disrespected, they have been taken advantage of, they have been over - worked and they have had expectations placed upon them that no one should ever face. This week is Allied Healthcare Professionals Recognition Week.

There are health -care workers in many roles all over our province, many who work in hospitals, clinics, payroll, medical records, lab technicians, paramedics, some working on Manitobans' physical health, others on mental health. And it is overwhelmingly evident that this provincial government has not fulfilled the role that they are responsible for. Madam Speaker, I want to thank those who are working in our health-care field. No matter the depart- ment, whether you're in Winnipeg or rural or northern Manitoba, thank you for keeping Manitobans safe and healthy.

ORAL QUESTIONS Allied Health Professionals Collective Bargaining Negotiations Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): For seven years, this PC government has disrespected people who work in our health-care system, the folks at the front lines who take care of us e ach and every day. Manitoba Association of Health Care Professionals members took a vote to strike. Of those 7,000 members, 99 per cent voted to take strike action. It's a testament to the poor job that this Premier has made in managing– or perhaps we should say mismanaging–our health- care system.

Those workers came to the Leg. today asking for a fair deal. Will the Premier tell the House if she will give allied health-care professionals a fair deal tout de suite? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Premier): Madam Speaker, that is the right of these health -care workers, and it's also their right to a fair collective bargaining process. And that's a process that we, certainly, on this side of the House, are in favour of moving forward on. The Leader of the Opposition will know, and others will know, that we are not –government is not the employer in this; it's Shared Health.

And we encour - age them to come to a swift conclusion, as quickly as possible, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question.

2382 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 Mr. Kinew: Madam Speaker, this government created Shared Health. They appoint the board of directors of Shared Health. They control Shared Health entirely. And, yet, it's under their watch that there's b een no deal. These allied health-care professionals, the front- line heroes, whether they're the rural paramedics or the people working in community-care teams here in the city or lab or X-ray technicians, these are the folks who take care of us.

And yet, this government has forced them to incur debt, taking their cuts onto their personal lines of credit and credit cards. That's the impact–the grinding impact–during a cost-of-living crisis. How does the Premier explain the terrible job she's done with disrespecting these health-care professionals? Mrs. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is disrespecting these health-care pro- fessionals by not respecting the collective bargaining process. We, on this side of the House, don't believe in the fear mongering by the Leader of the Opposition.

We want to ensure that Shared Health, the employer, as well as the union, come to a fair and equitable agreement between all parties. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: I'd like to share with the House that not only do these health -care professionals do a remark - able job of taking care of us on the front lines of the health-care system–they also watch question period.

And so, they've heard these lines from the Premier before and they see them for what they are: a desper- ate attempt by a failing gov ernment to distract from the terrible job that they're doing on health care. And, by the way, these workers see it as disrespect. Not only has this gov ernment frozen their wages for more than half a decade, now they come through and try to throw up their hands and say: It's not us; we had nothing to do with it. Everyone can see transparently through the terrible job this government is doing with health care.

Will they finally give these pro fessionals what they deserve: a fair deal right now? Mrs. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is inflaming the situation and that doesn't help the collective bargaining process. We believe that that's an irresponsible approach. Members of the public should know that all other health-care collective bargaining agreements have resulted in retroactive implementation of those agree- ments, and we expect this to be the same, Madam Speaker. Now, the Leader of the Opposition can fear monger all he wants, but we will respect the collective bargaining process.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. School Libraries Containing LGBTQ2S Content Government Position of Call for Book Ban Mr. Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Madam Speaker, liberty, freedom, justice; these are some of the principles that lead us, on this side of the House, to say that books should not be banned in Manitoba. [interjection] I hear heckling from the PCs right now. Perhaps they'd like to listen because this is a very im portant question.

When we see that two- spirit and LGBTQ content is being the subject of fodder for people with extreme right-wing views in our province, it's impor- tant for reasonable Manitobans to stand up and take a stand against that. You would think, in 2023, it would be very easy for the Premier of this province to say that books should not be banned, and yet we're still waiting. Yesterday, the Premier said it's up to a school division–it's up to school divisions to stand up for human rights.

Can the Premier state clearly today whether she wants to see a book ban in Manitoba or if she's going to stand up for reasonable–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –approaches to defending human rights for all Manitobans? [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Hon. Heather Stefanson (Premier): Madam Speaker, we, on this side of the House, believe in diversity, we believe in inclusion and we believe in supporting a safe learning environment for all of our children, no matter where they learn across this great province of ours.

Madam Speaker, we also believe in local autonomy and when it comes to this parti cular issue, it's –we believe that the school boards make those decisions. We know that the Leader of the Op position, other

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2383 members have said in the past, they believe in local autonomy when it comes to school divisions. Now, all of a sudden, they're not for that. Where are they today, Madam Speaker? [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: I just want to point out to people watching at home that it's the members for Fort Whyte and McPhillips who are heckling during these questions.

When we're talking about human rights, where we are today is the same place we've always–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –been as the Manitoba NDP. We defend human rights. We defend human rights for people in the two-spirit, L-B-G-T-T-T-Q+ communities. Now, unfortunately, some people are calling for books to be banned in this province. It's been a disappointing response from the Premier so far, who says, and I quote, that it's up to those school divisions. End quote. Will the Premier show leadership? Will she simply say today that there should be no book ban of 2SLGBTQ+ content?

Madam Speaker: I am going to call the Minister for Sport, C ulture and Heritage and the member for McPhillips (Mr. Martin) to order, please. Mrs. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, we believe in diversity, we believe in inclusion and we believe that our children should learn in a safe environment within our schools. We also believe in local autonomy, Madam Speaker. And as the leader of –or sorry, the member for Wolseley (Ms. Naylor) has said –and that she believes also in local autonomy.

She said, and I quote: the Premier's decision to dissolve all school divisions eliminates both the democratic system and parents' direct line with trustees to raise concerns. Instead, parents will be forced to take up any issues directly with the Premier. End quote. * (13:50) So, I wonder if the Leader of the Opposi tion agrees with the m ember for Wolseley or is that just another faction in his divided caucus? Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: I think it's very clear why people are sick of the PCs.

People in Manitoba are hungry for a serious approach to gov ernment, and you're just not seeing that in this PC caucus. When we're talking about a potential ban on books with 2SLGBTQ+ content, we're talking–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –about an issue with human rights. This is something that a Premier should be able to speak clearly and unequivocally on. And yet, we know that this gov ernment brought in bill 64, which would have abolished all school divisions in Manitoba.

That's why we can plainly see that this is nothing but an attempt to distract and try to evade answering what is a very clear question. For the second day in a row, multiple questions in sequence, I will ask again of this Premier: Does she believe that books should be banned simply beca use they feature 2SLGBTQ+ content? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Mrs. Stefanson: We listened to Manitobans, and that's why we scrapped bill 64. But when it comes to the member for Burrows (Mr. Brar), who also apparently agrees with local autonomy with our–within our school divisions.

He said, and I quote: School boards are local voices. School board trustees are the people who local people, school parents trust. That's what the member for Burrows said. So I wonder: Does the Leader of the Op position agree with the member for Burrows, or is that yet another faction in his divided caucus? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Order. Riverbend School 2SLGBTQ+ Books and Items Stolen Call for Government to Condemn Actions MLA Uzoma Asagwara (Union Station): Riverbend Community School has recently been subjected to targeted attacks. An entire

section worth at least $600 of books were stolen from a teacher's classroom, including 2SLGBTQ+ books, Indigenous books and affi rming books for girls, and more.

2384 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 As well, the school's 2SLGBTQ+ flag, their Pride flag and pole were stolen over the weekend. This is no easy task. It would have required a ladder and tools, so it's clear these attacks were deliberate and targeted. We stand together–rather, we need to stand together unequivocally against these discriminatory attacks on the community, as well as other equity-seeking groups. Will the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) be clear and condemn these attacks today? Hon.

Obby Khan (Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage): I want to be very clear when I say this: We stand unequivocally with the com munity. We stand unequivocally with the 2SLGBTQAI+ community. We stand for inclusivity and diversity on this side of the House. I don't know how many more times we can say it, but we stand for all Manitobans proudly on this side of the House. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Union Station, on a supplementary question. MLA Asagwara: Actions speak much louder than the words of that P C caucus, including that minister's.

Staff, students and parents at Riverbend Com munity School are reeling from these recent targeted attacks at their school. An entire

section of repre sentative books were stolen from a classroom, and the school's 2SLGBTQ+ flag and pole was stolen over the weekend. This is not just attack–an attack on the school; it's a hate crime, and an attack on the very existence of members of the 2SLGBTQ+ community, as well as other equity-seeking groups. We need to stand with the school and with the community to make it clear that we all support them, and actions need to be taken to ensure these attacks don't continue. Will the Premier provide that commitment today? Hon.

Sarah Guillemard (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): We do condemn any actions that are unlawful within classrooms or within society. And our thoughts are with the school commu- nity if they're feeling threatened. And, certainly, this action is being investigated by the schools, and we will watch for the outcome of this. We are sorry for these events and how they've unfolded, and we hope to hear more details of what has transpired here. But we absolutely support the community of the LGBTQ communities. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Union Station, on a final supplementary.

MLA Asagwara: Madam Speaker, that's the third PC member, including the Premier, who has failed to commit to taking any action to stop these attacks. We have recently seen a movement to ban books in Manitoba, jus t because they feature 2SLGBTQ+ communities. Let's call it what it is, Madam Speaker. These are targeted attacks on equity -seeking groups, and now these attacks have become even bolder at Riverbend Com munity School. [interjection] Even the Premier right now–the Premier herself right now– heckles during this incred ibly im portant question.

Their books were stolen out of their classrooms, and a flag and pole as well. We have to stand up and call out these kinds of harmful rhetoric and actions. We need to take action right now to stop this violence in all forms. Will the Premier commit to taking real action today? Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Mr. Khan: I will reiterate that we on this side of the House, and I think everyone in here, st ands with an inclusive and diverse com munity and supporting all communities in Manitoba.

I want to be very clear to the Leader of the Opposition and his entire caucus and everyone over there: there is no book ban in this province. So, what- ever they 're doing on that side is misleading and putting more false information on the record. There is no book ban in this province. We don't stand for a book ban in this province. On this side of the House, we stand for freedom. We stand for the ability for people to make their decisions, to go to libraries, a welcoming and inclusive space.

What they're doing is just fear mongering and adding more misinformation on the record, like they've always done, Madam Speaker. New School Construction Use of Public-Private Model Mr. Nello Altomare (Transcona): Manitobans know this PC government cannot be trusted to properly fund our schools. They have consistently underfunded public education since 2016, and even hid their secret new funding model. Now, they want to bring back Brian Pallister's debunked model of building schools using P3.

This PC government retained KPMG, Madam Speaker, to do a study on using P3s for schools in 2018, and the results were clear: it was a bad move. Brian Pallister did the right thing and he backed off.

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2385 Normally, the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) loves finishing whatever Brian Pallister started, so she–can she tell us why she thinks he got this one wrong? Hon. James Teitsma (Minister of Consumer Protection and Government Services): Madam Speaker, we're a gov ernment that builds schools. We've already got 14 of them under way or com - pleted. We have nine more planned. The members opposite, when they were in gov- ernment, well, they seemed more interested in building portables, enough to hold 9,000 students.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Transcona, on a supplementary question. Mr. Altomare: Still no coherent answer as to why they're using a P3 model. That's their approach: distract, deflect and don't answer any questions. The Auditor General himself in five provinces found that P3s was the wrong approach. In 2018, we learned the Saskatchewan government had to pay four times more just to maintain schools built using a P3. That same year, this PC government abandoned their own plans to use P3s to construct schools. The Premier knows that P3 models don't work. Her own report told her so.

So, finally, I'll ask again, Madam Speaker: Can the Premier explain why she's committed to using a P3 process even though they cos t taxpayers more money? Mr. Teitsma: Madam Speaker, our priorities are the priorities of Manitoba families, of Manitoba students. They want to learn in beautiful, equipped schools. They do not want to go back to being stuck in hundreds of portables like the NDP wanted to do. * (14:00) So, if the member wants to know, why am I advocating this approach? Because I want to build nine new schools, high quality and quickly.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Transcona, on a final supplementary. Mr. Altomare: So, a minister of consumer and cor - porate affairs defends using a more expensive model to build schools; this creates worse outcomes, Madam Speaker, for kids, families and our communities. Now they're recycling this failed idea. This PC gov ernment clearly cares more about privatization than doing what's best for our public schools. Will the Premier finally commit to scrapping this failed P3 model and properly invest in building schools today? Mr.

Teitsma: Well, Madam Speaker, by now I think Manitobans can see this line of questioning for what it is: a desperate attempt to distract from their legacy and their leader. What I will simply say is that we are building high-quality schools. We're building them quickly. That is our point. We want to ensure that students are taught in these beautiful facilities. That's why we made building schools a priority. We had committed to building 20 schools; now we're going to build 23. We committed to getting them done by 2029; now we're getting them done by 2027. That's three more schools, two years sooner.

That's real results for Manitobans. Health System Workers Deloitte Report Findings MLA Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): For seven years, the PCs have refused to listen to nurses, doctors and allied health professionals. Instead, they paid a consulting firm, Deloitte, to prepare a report on how they could fix the crisis that they created, and the findings weren't surprising. Health-care workers are dealing with the burnout that's forcing them to consider quitting altogether. And then it gets better, Madam Speaker. The Health Minister herself never even read the report that they paid so much money for.

And she still hasn't committed to reading the report. Can the minister and the Premier explain why they haven't read the report that they paid hundred of thousands of dollars for? Hon. Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, health care has always been the top priority for this gov ernment. That is why we created the Diagnostic and Surgical Recovery Task Force, which is providing tens of thousands of additional procedures to improve the lives of Manitoba patients living in pain.

That is why we created the health human resource action plan, which is supporting doctors, nurses, allied health professionals and adding more health profes - sionals to the system. That is why we are making historic invest ments in new health infra structure to allow more Manitobans to get the care they need faster and closer to home.

2386 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 We, on this side of the House, are committed to making health care stronger and more sustainable for all Manitobans. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. MLA Fontaine: If the minister got off her couch and actually spoke to front-line health workers, she would learn that they're facing record levels of burnout that is forcing them to consider quitting a profession that they love, altogether. Instead, they've spent even more money to con - sultants instead of spending it on the front lines.

The Health Minister couldn't even be bothered to read the report that they paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to. That's how little she cares about our Manitoba health-care front-line workers. Will the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) and her Health Minister show some leadership and commit to reading the report that their government paid for, today? Ms. Gordon: Madam Speaker, I'd like to table for the members opposite–and I hope they'll read it–a transcript of an interview from yesterday and the comments from the province of Manitoba head of surgery, Dr. Ed Buchel: We are above 2019 numbers; that's no small feat.

We're recruiting and retaining net positive numbers of surgical specialists. Our numbers are going up. We are recruiting cardiac surgeons–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Ms. Gordon: –thoracic surgeons, and we're being successful at doing this. High-end specialities are getting more people to come and help our people because we're developing the environment that is enticing. Surgeons are coming to our province in spite of signi ficant recruitment in BC, Alberta and Toronto. We're net positive, year over year, in terms of our recruitment– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired.

The honourable member for St. Johns, on a final supplementary. MLA Fontaine: The bottom line is that Manitobans don't believe this Health Minister. Health pro fes- sionals don't believe this minister, and health- care workers don't feel supported by this minister or the Premier. And that's certainly no surprise, Madam Speaker; even when the PCs com mission reports to see how they can fix the crisis –again, that they've created in health care–they don't even read them. They can't even take the time to be bothered to read them. That's not leadership; it is appalling incompetence.

And the Premier and her Health Minister still haven't committed to reading the report that they paid hun- dreds of thousands of dollars for. Will the Premier and her Health Minister provide this commit ment to reading the report and hearing from health-care workers today? Ms. Gordon: Madam Speaker, more from Manitoba's head of surgery, Dr. Ed Buchel: We are recruiting more arthroplasty. We are recruiting more ortho surgeons in general. Again, we're above 2019 numbers; that 's no small feat. We're recruiting and retaining net positive numbers of surgical specialists.

And, Madam Speaker, nurses in this province know that our government listened to the front lines, imple- mented the health human resource action plan, $123 million for nine nurse incentives. I'd like to share some of them: $8.4 million to reimburse the cost of nurses' pro fessional licensing fees, an incentive for nurses who have previously left the profession but choose to return– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Project Nova Budget and CEO Travel Expenses Request to Call MPI Standing Committee Mr.

Matt Wiebe (Concordia): Madam Speaker, the mess at PUB –Manitoba Public Insurance somehow got even messier. A week after we raised the issue of the PCs' hand- picked MPI CEO receiving two raises and racking up $88,000 in travel costs, we've learned that the MPI board chair has now resigned; the same PC-appointed board chair who signed off on these raises and travel costs. It's clear the PCs have lost all control of the situa- tion, and their mismanagement is going to continue to cost taxpayers more. Manitobans deserve answers. Will the gov ernment call a meeting of the MPI committee today? Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): The member will know that when it comes to PUB - approved rate increases or decreases, that they are

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2387 significantly lower under our government than they ever were under the former NDP government. Having said that, I do welcome the new board chair to MPI, Ward Keith, who has more than three decades of experience in the public insurance sector. I know that he's already been well received in terms of his appointment, and we look forward to the work that he'll do at MPI. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Concordia, on a supplementary question. Mr. Wiebe: Chaos is the only word that can sum up what's going on over at Manitoba Public Insurance under these PCs.

Project Nova costs have ballooned $200 million over budget and, at the same time, the PCs' hand- picked CEO received two raises and racked up $88,000 in travel costs. The entire hand-picked board and the minister signed off on all of it. And now, after we raised this issue, the board chair all of a sudden ann ounces his resig nation. Manitobans want true accountability from these PCs. Will the minister commit to calling a meeting of the MPI committee today? Mr.

Goertzen: Manitobans can look at the track record of the PUB-approved rate increases or decreases under our government over the last seven years, compared to under the former NDP government. Manitobans are getting a good rate for their insurance because of good management, Madam Speaker.

However, it is im portant that we continue to en - sure that the people on the board and at the top of the board are the best qualified that we can find, and Ward Keith is certainly among those, having had three decades of ex perience at MPI and getting promoted under a number of different gov ernments, including Gary Doer's government, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Concordia, on a final supplementary. * (14:10) Mr. Wiebe: For months, Madam Speaker, the PCs twiddled their thumbs as Project Nova ran $200 million over budget.

At the same time, the hand-picked CEO was racking up $88,000 in travel costs and received two raises. PCs' hand-picked board and the minister signed off on all of it. Yet the PCs continue to try to avoid any accountability for the mess, and it's Manitobans' MPI rates that continue to go up under this PC government. Will the government simply show some level of accountability and call an MPI com mittee so that Manitobans can finally get some answers from this PC government? Mr. Goertzen: Once again the m ember opposite is wrong.

The track record, when it comes to the PUB-approved rate increases or decreases, speak favourably of this gov ernment. Of course there were times when rate increases under the NDP were 3 and a half, 4 per cent because costs were o ut of control. And, at that time, that member sat in the gov ernment and did absolutely nothing. In fact, what they did was they ended up firing CEOs, giving them big severances, and then turning around and hiring them back days later at a hundred– at hundreds -of-dollars-an-hour contract. That was their view of how to manage the corporation.

Under our government, MPI has been one of the leaders in terms of keeping rates down for customers. Small Cannabis Retailers Black Market Cannabis Sales Mr. Dougald Lamont (St. Boniface): Last week at committee, we heard some eye -opening testimony about the PC gov ernment's terrible treatment of locally owned cannabis stores. The gov ernment charged a social respon sibility fee in the millions of dollars that drove stores out of business and was never spent on protecting the public.

We also heard that those high taxes spent on nothing drove entrepreneurs, who risked every thing, out of business and virtually nothing is being done to crack down on the black or grey markets. We were told there are plenty of local online sales and storefronts that are openly selling illegal cannabis and flooding the market with products that could be tainted. When it comes to being tough on crime, this government is all talk. Why isn't this government supporting local small business, enforcing the law and shutting down black- market cannabis sales? Hon.

Cliff Cullen (Minister of Finance): I think, for the member's infor mation, for the members in the House, their information, we think we have now cornered 50 per cent of the black market in Manitoba through the very robust retail market we have in Manitoba.

2388 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 We've asked the–made the conscious decision to ask the private sector to get involved in retail in cannabis here in Manitoba. We now have 175 stores serving all corners of our province and we believe in delivery of the private sector here in delivering cannabis in Manitoba. Madam Speaker: The honour able member for St. Boniface, on a supplementary question. Mr. Lamont: Madam Speaker, this PC gov ernment charged high taxes for nothing, they drove locally owned family businesses into bankruptcy and there's been a complete lack of law enforcement.

It's not up to the private sector to enforce the law. These are family -owned Manitoba busi nesses that have put everything at risk. Cannabis stores can't use banks. They can't get loans. This govern ment put people's homes and livelihoods at risk by mismanaging the rollout of cannabis sales in Manitoba. When one presenter said he was opening in Point Douglas knowing there were multiple black -market stores selling all kinds of drugs, the minister's response was, hopefully your fight goes well against the black market in Point Douglas. It's not up to cannabis retailers to get rid of a black market.

That's the government and the police's job. Why aren't they doing it? Mr. Cullen: Well, Madam Speaker, I think we should all reflect back that it was the federal Liberal govern- ment that got us into the cannabis busi ness here in Manitoba, and quite frankly, across the country. They have asked us to figure out the retailing of cannabis. That's why we've gone to the private sector. We know members opposite might take a different course and not use the private sector. We're certainly working with the private sector. We're working with the police forces, as well, to reduce the black market.

And I will say, Madam Speaker, once we reduce– eliminate the social respon sibility fee, we will have one of the most competitive pricing for cannabis in the country. Patient Care at St. Boniface Hospital Constituent Request for Meeting With Minister Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, Wayne Robert developed sores on his feet, and his feet were never examined by the home -care nurse in spite of pleas by his wife Susan. The sores progressed. His toes blackened. Months later, the severity was finally ap preciated at the St. Boniface Hospital, but it was too late.

A mix-up meant his wife and family were not able to visit him for a critical week while he was still conscious in the days before his death. In the ICU, the bracelet to identify him had another patient's name on it. Susan was promised a meeting with the Minister of Health (Ms. Gordon), but it never happened. She's in the gallery today. Will the minister meet with Susan after QP? She's looking for closure and wants to do what she can so that no others go through what Wayne went through. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Hon.

Scott Johnston (Minister of Seniors and Long-Term Care): I certainly am very sorry for the situation that the individual that the member references, and I can certainly indicate that Seniors, working with the De partment of Health, continue to evaluate our processes and deter mine what further initiatives we can take to ensure the situations that the member references don't continue to take place. As per the infor mation that the member has brought forward, I would look forward to having some further discussion with this particular issue with the Minister of Health.

Building Sustainable Communities Program Announcement of Recipients for 2023 Mr. Andrew Micklefield (Rossmere): In 2019, our gov- ernment created the Building Sustainable Communities program to support important community projects at a local level. Since its creation, the annual grant stream has been immensely popular across the province and has led to the funding of 1,745 projects, leveraging $185 million from other funding sources, with $82 million in prov- incial government investments.

For the benefit of the House and members oppo- site, would the minister please tell us about this morning's announcement for this year's Building Sus tainable Communities recipients? Hon. Andrew Smith (Minister of Municipal Relations): I'd like to thank the member from Rossmere for that great question. I know I was joined by a number of stakeholders and community groups this morning, the member from

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2389 Rossmere and the Minister of Hea lth (Ms. Gordon), when we announced 25 –in fact, over $25 million in project funding across this great province through the Building Sustainable Communities fund. Our government created this in 2019, and in the past under the NDP government, they had all kinds of confusing streams. We consolidated that into one, and not only did we consolidate it, we upped it to $25 million in '22-23. Some projects that we announced today–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Smith: –was a $600,000 expansion of the Boys and Girls Club in Thompson; $400,000 renovation in Dakota Community Centre; $200,000 project in– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. Drug Overdose Death Reporting Request for 2022-23 Data Mrs. Bernadette Smith (Po int Douglas): The PC government refused for months to release the number of Manitobans who died from overdoses in 2022. Now we finally have the preliminary data, which shows that at least 418 Manitobans have died in the past year. This PC government has failed to take any meaning- ful action.

In fact, they've tried to make it harder for those on the front lines to do their life -saving work. This is shameful. We're four and a half months into 2023 and we still don't have the definitive numbers for 2022. When will this minister release those definitive numbers of overdose deaths for 2022? Hon.

Janice Morley-Lecomte (Minister of Mental Health and Community Wellness): As the member opposite knows, and was informed in Estimates and in prior discussions, those numbers are released by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, and when he has them on his site, once the preliminary numbers are out, he puts them on his site. Once they've been verified, they go on our site. She just needs to wait for him to do his job. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a supplementary question. Mrs. Smith: The medical examiner has been doing their job.

They've now been silenced from releasing any of those numbers to groups that approach them to ask for those numbers. That minister has access to those numbers, and it's under their portfolio, and they have the means to be able to release those numbers. * (14:20) So this time I'll ask: When is this minister going to release the numbers for 2023 overdeaths–overdose deaths? We still don't have those numbers, and we're four and a half months into 2023 already. Ms. Morley-Lecomte: I want to thank all the individuals who do the work in the fields, who go out and meet with the families, who offer the supports.

And I would not want to begin to tell an individual when they should be preparing the numbers, when they should be putting them on their websites. I will wait for the individual–the doctor to do his job. Mrs. Smith: These numbers help guide the front-line workers in doing their work, and they should be guiding this gov ernment in the supports that are needed to save lives here in Manitoba. Manitobans continue to die. We don't even know how many Manitobans are dying with an overdose death, or what even drug they're dying from, because this gov ernment refuses to be transpar ent with Manitobans.

So I'll ask them again: Will they release those numbers, will they commit to opening a safe con- sumption site and will they start to be transparent and release those numbers in a timely manner to the public, along with the drugs that are being overdosed on, so that we can help save Manitoban lives? Ms. Morley-Lecomte: I, again, want to applaud the individuals who are working in the field: t he nurses, the social workers, the peer support workers; all of the individuals who are providing support for individuals seeking support for their substance abuse.

I also would like to say that, had opposi tion sup- ported our Bill 33, there would be a lot more safety in place for the com munity and for Manitobans so that individuals who are seeking the supports for their mental health and their addictions would have them in place. Personal-Care-Home Beds Constituent Case Concern MLA Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): Vince Guay lives in Thompson. He's been unable to leave his bed, apart from medical appointments and hospital stays, for the past four years.

2390 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 Vince lives with a spinal con dition. It's left him unable to walk. He's on a waiting list for the Northern Spirit Manor in Thompson and the Fairview Personal Care Home in Brandon, but there's no end in sight for how long he'll have to wait. PC government hasn't built PCH beds since taking office; in fact, we've lost nearly 200 PCH beds in this province. Will the minister do the right thing for people like Vince: ensure that every Manitoban who needs a PCH bed can actually get one? Hon.

Scott Johnston (Minister of Seniors and Long-Term Care): As I've indicated in the House several times, this go vernment is aware of the needs of seniors in Manitoba and the care of Manitobans. And that's why, Madam Speaker, I've indicated several times that this gov ernment is in design and planning of additional personal-care homes, as well as other initiatives, that we will be bringing forward in the very near future for the betterment of all Manitobans. Madam Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: And I have a ruling for the House.

Prior to routine proceedings on Wednesday, April 19th, 2023, the honourable Official Opposition House Leader (MLA Fontaine) raised a matter of privilege contending that the honourable First Minister and the honourable Minister of Health (Ms. Gordon) had deliberately misled the House by questioning the existence and legitimacy of letters on the subject of health care tabled in the House on the previous day by the official opposition.

The honourable Official Opposition House Leader concluded by moving, and I quote "that this matter be immediately referred to a standing committee of this House for debate and review." The honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Goertzen) and the honourable member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) also offered contributions to the Chair. I took the matter under advisement in order to consult the procedural authorities.

There are two conditions that must be satisfied in order for a matter of privilege to be ruled in order as a prima facie case of privilege: Was the issue raised at the e arliest opportunity, and was sufficient evidence provided to support the member's claim that their privileges or the privileges of the House were breached. On the first issue of whether the issue was raised at the earliest opportunity, the honourable Offi cial Opposition House Leader indicated that the issue was raised at the earliest opportunity, and I accept the word of the honourable member.

On the second issue, whether sufficient evidence was provided, there are a number of considerations to explore, particularly with regard to charges of deliberately misleading the House. The first consideration is that allegations of deliberately misleading the House should be raised as a point of order and not a matter of privilege. Joseph Maingot in the second edition of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada advises on page 241 that, and I quote: To allege that a member has misled the House is a matter of order rather than privilege. End quote.

He goes on to advise on the same page, and I quote: to allege that a membe r has deliberately misled the House is also a matter of order. End quote. Second, as I ruled on April 19th, 2023, the member so accused needs to say on the record that it is their intended purpose to deliberately mislead the House. Short of such an admission, the onus of proof cannot be satisfied.

There is a lengthy body of precedence from Manitoba Speakers supporting this finding, including Speakers Rocan, Dacquay, Hickes, Reid and the current Speaker, as well as the findings from the 50th report of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Third, it was ruled by Speaker Hickes on December 6th, 2005, and March 8th, 2006, and also by Speakers in the Canadian House of Commons that, in situations concerning whether or not answers offer- ed by ministers are false in comparison with their information, it is not the role of the Speaker to adjudicate on matters of fact.

Instead, this is something that is left up to the House to form an opinion on. For all of these reasons, I must respectfully rule that a prima facie case of privilege has not been demonstrated. Although I was not able to rule that a prima facie case of privilege was not demonstrated, I would like to share the observation that it would not be a good look for our democracy if a minister were to say one thing in the Assembly Chamber and then say some - thing completely different outside of the Chamber to

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2391 the media. It could give the appearance that an answer provided in the Chamber was not completely accurate, and it cou ld also lead to confusion as to whether accountability has been provided. PETITIONS Punjabi Bilingual Programs in Public Schools Mr. Nello Altomare (Transcona): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. To the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba, the background to this petition is as follows:

(1) According to census 2021, Punjabi is the fourth most spoken language in Canada and there are 33,315 people in Manitoba whose native language is Punjabi.

(2) Thousands of Punjabi newcomers are coming to Manitoba as students and as immigrants, looking to call this province home. People of Punjabi origin contribute a great deal to the social and economic development of Canada and Manitoba in fields such as education, science, health, business and politics.

(3) In coming to Manitoba, Punjabi new comers make sacrifices, including distance from their cultural roots and language. Many Punjabi parents and families want their children to retain their language and keep a continued cultural appreciation.

(4) Manitoba has many good bilingual programs in public schools for children and teens available in other languages, including French, Ukrainian, Ojibwe, Filipino, Cree, Hebrew and Spanish. Punjabi bilingual programs for children a nd teens as well as Punjabi language instruction at a college and uni versity level could similarly teach and maintain Punjabi language and culture.

(5) Punjabi bilingual instruction will help cross - cultural friendships, relationships and marriages and prepare young people to be multilingual professionals. * (14:30) We therefore petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the prov incial government to take steps to implement Punjabi bilingual programs in public schools simila r to existing bilingual programs and take steps to implement Punjabi language instruction in other levels of education in Manitoba. This petition, Madam Speaker, is signed by many Manitobans.

Madam Speaker: In accordance with our rule 133(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Security System Incentive Program Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) Cities acr oss Canada and the United States, including Chicago; Washington, DC; Salinas, California; and Orillia, Ontario, are offering home security rebate programs that enhance public safety and allow for more efficient use of their policing resources.

(2) Home se curity surveillance systems protect homes and businesses by potentially deterring burglaries, reducing homeowners' and businesses' insurance costs.

(3) Whole neighbourhoods benefit when more homes and businesses have these security systems.

(4) A 2022 Angus Reid Institute poll found 70 per cent of Winnipeggers surveyed believed crime had increased over the last five years, the highest percentage found among cities in Canada.

(5) The same survey reported half of Winnipeggers polled do not feel safe w alking alone at night, and almost 20 per cent of them said they were a victim of police-reported crime in the last two years.

(6) Although the public understands what the criminologists and com munity advocates point to as the main drivers of crime, namely the larger issues of lack of food, addictions and poverty, they support rebate programs like these as they help the most vul - nerable in our com munity by removing financial barriers for personal protection.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the prov incial government to work with municipalities to establish a province-wide tax rebate or other incentive program to encourage residents and businesses to purchase approved home and busi ness security protection systems. This petition is signed by many, many Manitobans. Madam Speaker: Does the member for Notre Dame wish to read a petition? MLA Malaya Marcelino (Notre Dame): Thank you, Madam Speaker.

2392 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Notre Dame. Health-Care Coverage MLA Malaya Marcelino (Notre Dame): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background for this petition is as follows:

(1) Health care is a basic human right and a fundamental part of responsible public health. Many people in Manitoba are not covered by provincial health care: migrant workers with work permits of less than one year, international students and those undocumented residents who have lost their status for a variety of reasons. Racialized peo ple and communities are disproportionately affected by the pandemic, mainly due to the social and economic conditions which leave them vulnerable while performing essential work in a variety of industries in Manitoba.

(3) Without adequate health- care co verage, if they are ill, many of the uninsured will avoid seeking health care due to fear of being charged for the care, and some will fear possible detention and deportation if their immigration status is reported to the authorities.

(4) According to the United Nations Human Rights Committee, denying essential health care to undocumented, irregular migrants is a violation of their rights.

(5) Jurisdictions across Canada and the world have adopted access -without-fear policies to prevent sharing personal health information or immigration status with immigration authorities and to give uninsured residents the confidence to access health care.

(6) The pandemic has clearly identified the need for everyone in Manitoba to have access to health care to protect the health and safety of all who live in the province. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

(1) To urge the provincial government to imme - diately provide comprehensive and free health -care coverage to all residents of Manitoba, r egardless of immigration status, including refugee claimants, migrant workers, international students, dependent children of temporary residents and undocumented residents.

(2) To urge the Minister of Health and seniors care to undertake a multilingual communication campaign to provide information on expanded cover age to all affected residents.

(3) To urge the Minister of Health and seniors care to inform all health -care institutions and pro- viders of expanded coverage for those without health insurance and the details on how necessary policy and protocol changes will be implemented.

(4) To urge the Minister of Health and seniors care to create and enforce strict confidentiality policies and provide staff with training to promote the safety of resident s with precarious immigration status and ensure they can access health care without jeo - pardizing their ability to remain in Canada. This has been signed by Emily Hiebert, Sara Bruce, Taylor Maciejkow and many other Manitobans. Madam Speaker: Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): A couple of matters of government business first.

Pursuant to rule 34(7), I'm announcing that the private member's reso lution to be considered on the next Tuesday of private members' business will be the one previously put forward by the honourable member for Brandon West (Mr. Helwer). The title of the reso- lution is Committing to Balancing Future Budgets While Keeping Life Affordable for Manitoba Families. Madam Speaker: It has been announced that the private member's reso lution to be considered on the next Tuesday of private members' business will be one previously put forward by the honourable member for Brandon West.

The title of the resolution is Committing to Balancing Future Budgets While Keeping Life Affordable for Manitoba Families.

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2393 Mr. Goertzen: After some con sultation with the Opposition House Leader, I'm announcing the cancel- lation of the previously announced Standing Commit- tee on Social and Economic Dev elopment scheduled to meet on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023, at 6 p.m. to consider Bill 230, The Municipal Councils and School Boards Elections Amend ment Act; Bill 231, The Residential Tenancies Amend ment Act (2); and Bill 235, The Employment Standards Code Amendment Act.

Madam Speaker: It has been announced that the – there's a cancellation of the previously announced Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development scheduled to meet on Wednesday, May 17th, 2023, at 6 p.m. to consider Bill 230, The Municipal Councils and School Boards Elections Amendment Act; Bill 231, The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act (2); and Bill 235, The Em ployment Standards Code Amendment Act. * * * Mr. Goertzen: For this afternoon, Madam Speaker, could you please call for a third reading, bills 17, 7, 16, 27, 8, 13, 24, 31, 25, 36, 29, 21 and 22.

Madam Speaker: It has been announced that the following bills will be considered this afternoon: concurrence and third reading of bills 17, 7, 16, 27, 8, 13, 24, 31, 25, 36, 29, 21, 22. CONCURRENCE AND THIRD READINGS Bill 17–The Regulated Health Professions Amendment Act

(2) Madam Speaker: I will therefore start by calling concurrence and third reading of Bill 17, The Regulated Health Professions Amendment Act (2). Hon. Audrey Gordon (Minister of Health): I move, seconded by the Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage (Mr. Khan), that Bill 17, The Regulated Health Professions Amend ment Act (2), reported from the Standing Committee on Justice, be concurred in and be now read for a third time and passed. Motion presented. Ms. Gordon: Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to rise for a third reading of Bill 17,

an act respecting amend - ments to the regulated health professions act or RHPA. This bill will enable the minister respon sible to take action in the public interest to address issues relating to the administration and operation of a health profession regulatory college that has not yet transi - tioned to the RHPA or the s tate of practice of the profession. * (14:40) This will ensure that there are the right tools in the toolkit and, if required, can improve matters related to health, safety and quality assurance in the practice of the regulated health profession.

The work to complete the regulations required to transition a profession to the RHPA is complex and takes a considerable amount of time to complete. Currently, there are five health profession regula- tory bodies under the RHPA, and 17 are still governed under their own professions' specific legislation while waiting to transition to the RHPA.

Resources, including a workbook and a guidance document have been developed to help the colleges complete the work they need to do to transition to the RHPA, and work has begun on the reserved act review process for the professions of licensed practical nursing, physiotherapy and medical laboratory tech - nology. These changes will help keep Manitobans safe and healthy as we move past the pandemic and con - tinue to work to transition all regulated health professions to the RHPA. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Are there any further members wishing to debate?

MLA Uzoma Asagwara (Union Station): I'm happy to put a few words on the record in regards to this bill. You know, I've–I think I've spoken to this bull – bill at length previously but certainly I appreciate the opportunity to put some more words on the record. This bill, you know, it is amending The Fair Registration Practices in Regulated P rofessions Act. There are a few reasons why it's being brought forward and I've had the oppor tunity to ask the minister questions about this, get clarity as to why.

And I've also had the op portunity to meet with a number of organi zations, a number of different pro - fessional regulatory entities, to hear about what their experiences have been, trying to bring themselves up to date, up to speed, in regards to falling under this act. And, you know, something that was raised pretty consistently was the lack of appropriate resources and

2394 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 supports from government in order to support organi- zations and being able to do so. I actually met with a couple of organizations, one in particular, that spe cifically stated that they have reached out to the government in the hopes that they would be able to transition under the act because they are prepared to do so. They've gotten them selves organized; they've done all the heavy lifting; they've done all the work. But, unfor tunately, they were told that–wasn't enough resources to support them in doing so.

So, at this time, they are unable to make that transition even though they're prepared to do so. And I think what that speaks to, Madam Speaker, is the ongoing lack of human resource within aspects of the De partment of Health under this minister and this government. There seems to be a resistance or a hesitancy from this government to adequately resource their own de- partments to make sure that when, you know, bills or amendments are brought forward that are meant to see regulatory entities make that transition, there's enough capacity in order to support those folks to do so.

And I do think that's a really im portant area of concern, again because we know that it's been very slow moving. The ability for entities to fall under the act has moved very slowly in recent years. You know, this is a source of frustration for different regula tory bodies. You know, there are larger organi zations that have made that transition, but there are other organi- zations that are eager to do so but have have not been met with the sort of support and energy that they would hoped from this gov ernment in order to make that happen.

And so I do think that that's a really im portant concern to put on t he record again because we con - tinue to hear it from folks in the community. I do think that, you know, there's some areas that are important for us not to talk about, and you know the area of internationally trained health-care workers has been a hot topic across the country in recent years, but certainly here in Manitoba. And we've seen that, under this government, there's been inadequate efforts made to ensure that internationally trained health-care professionals can work in Manitoba in a timely manner.

I would say, you know, my colleague, the MLA for Notre Dame, is incredibly well versed in this area. She's done a tre mendous amount of work meeting with folks in com munities to listen directly to them and hear about their experiences not being able to put their health-care expertise into practice in Manitoba, especially during a time when we really need every single health -care pro fessional possible working in our health-care system in Manitoba. And, you know, it is–it's very concerning that this government, despite the actions they claim they're taking, continue to fail these health-care workers.

You know, we saw recently that the Minister for Immigration, just as one example to really illustrate what I'm talking about here, took a trip to the Philippines, you know, came back, and the gov ern- ment touted that trip was a success, that we'd have all of these health -care workers from the Philippines, nurses working in Manitoba in short order. Now we know that's not even anywhere near happening. We know that's not going to happen any - where near the timeline that this gov ernment said it would happen. We know that there are some barriers that remain in place that this gov ernment hasn't addressed.

And, again, that speaks to this government bring- ing forward, you know, initiatives or legis lation or making announcements, but actually not having the details worked out or having a plan or strategy in place at all to speak of that would realize what it is that they're talking about. In the meantime, what do we have? We have a health-care system in Manitoba that is, some people say collapsing, some say in crisis, some say on fire; there's a whole lot of ways that people are describing what's happening in health care in Manitoba. What else do we have?

We have health-care workers who are leaving our health-care system in droves still, despite the fact that this government did what it does. They went out and made an announcement, said they hired hundreds of health-care workers. Basically, the same day, almost in the same breath, you've got people who are saying to this gov ernment, you know, you bring forward bills like Bill 36, you make announce- ments like you've hired hundreds of health-care workers, but in reality, you're not doing anything near what is necessary to make those things be realized.

You know, we know that actually we've lost a ton of health-care workers from our health -care system, but this gov ernment won't be honest about that because, you know, they'll do anyt hing that they can to distract from the truth and the reality of things.

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2395 We also know, like I said, in terms of Bill 36, that they don't actually want to do the work to make sure that their own an nouncements and commitments can be followed through on. And so that's just an example–just an example–of, you know, how it is that this government continues to fail health care in Manitoba. And the reality of it is this: that Manitobans are the ones who pay for it.

Manitobans are the ones who have to live wi th the consequences of this government's failure to actually follow through on anything they say that they care about in regards to health care, which is really shameful. You know, this government has a pattern of waiting until they are forced to address a situation to even acknowledge the situation is taking place. And I could give countless, countless examples to illustrate that, Madam Speaker. I recognize, though, that I'm talking about Bill 36, so I want to make sure that I can draw on an example that speaks to Bill 36.

So I guess a good example would be, you know, Bill 36 has different regulatory entities that are required to meet certain standards; for example, complying with regulations as it pertains to English or French language proficiency. That's a really good example. Those are testing requirements for domestic and internationally educated individuals, right? That's just an example of one of the criteria that, you know, would be –needed to be–is needed to be met under Bill 36.

But, you know, we've seen, under this gov ern- ment, that there are folks working who would like to work in Manitoba, who are born and raised and educated in Manitoba–you know, got their education at post-secondary institutions in Manitoba–who unfor- tunately have not been able to practise their profes - sion–in this case in particular, nursing–because this government failed to take the necessary steps to recognize that that is a ludicrous barrier to these folks who want to practise in our province, to the point where some of these nurses–and these are specifically Indigenous nurses, born and raised in Manitoba, educated here–who have not been able to practise in Manitoba actually had to take contracts in Saskatchewan, Ontario, elsewhere.

Because this gov ernment, despite what they say they want to make happen or they are making happen under bills like Bill 36, this gov ernment is actually failing those very nurses and not doing what is necessary for them to be a part of our health -care workforce in Manitoba during a time where we need to retain every single person possible and make sure that we've got a strong health-care system so that, not only are we retaining our health -care pro fessionals, but we're also setting the stage to be able to suc cess- fully recruit health -care workers into the system in Manitoba. * (14:50) And so, you know, I want to make very, very clear that Bill 36 is, you know, making some amendments and changes that are needed and, you know, that will support regulated health-care professional entities in being able to come under the act.

But none of that can actually happen in a timely manner; it can't be realized in a way that really supports these entities, because this gov ernment isn't adequately resourcing the de - partment in order to support them in doing so. And, again, that speaks to a pattern this gov ern- ment has of under -resourcing the essential services that we have which would ensure that our health-care system and the organizations that support our health- care system can function in a way that sees our health- care system be strong here in Manitoba. And so I felt it really important, Madam Speaker, to make those few points.

You know, we're in a time in Manitoba where, you know, even what seems to be pretty st raightfor- ward, common sense legis lation brought forward by this government is met with doubt and scrutiny and a lack of trust by the general public and by organi - zations providing health care or regula tory bodies in this province. And that has been well-earned by this government. They've worked very hard since 2016 to com pletely erode the trust and confi dence of Manitobans across the province.

And, unfortunately, they're working less hard, they're putting even less effort into repairing and rebuilding that trust and relationships.

And so I hear on the doorsteps every day, whether it's–I'm door knocking in Fort Richmond, if I'm door knocking in Southdale or Assiniboia, you know, if I'm door knocking, you know, in Kirkfield Park–I was there a couple of weeks ago–and what I hear from Manitobans is very clear: they don't trust this govern- ment with their health care and they want a gov ern- ment in place that's going to work in partnership with regulatory bodies and organizations to strengthen our public health -care system and empower the pro fes- sionals who provide direct front -line care.

And that team that's going to get that done is our NDP caucus. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

2396 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, this bill, which is now at third reading and has been through com mittee, is basically a bill which sub - stantiates the fact that the government has failed to put resources in to get the organi zations which we're talking about through this process. We've heard again and again from individuals that the gov ernment has delayed and delayed, and that they've delayed because they haven't had–assigned the resources and the individuals to be able to accelerate this process.

You know, one of the examples was provided by a presenter at the com mittee meeting, and this was a presenter who was presenting on behalf of the Remedial Massage Therapists Society of Manitoba. And she said that, with the massage therapists, they were approved for regula tion in 2015 to begin the process, and in eight years, there has been no steps following that. She says in her comments, this is unacceptable. Massage therapists were told the new regulations for massage therapists could take two to three years to complete.

And she also points out that, even if they started today, we'd be looking–they'd be looking at 23 years from when the initial bill was passed to when they are registered. That's not a realistic timeline for processes, even for government. I think it needs to be very clear that the fault here is both with the NDP and the PC gov ernments, that the excuses have been plentiful, but the action has not been. The government has re peatedly used COVID as an excuse, as a scapegoat for things which didn't get done.

And yet, as we have pointed out on this side, that very frequently, that the COVID was an ideal time to get moving on some things which had stalled. Saskatchewan–the massage therapists have gone through processing levels and are on their way to completing the development of their college by the end of 2023. And this compares to what's happening in Manitoba, where the massage therapists are stuck at the starting gate. Indeed, they were dismayed to learn that massage therapists weren't even on the list of–that was provided by the Minister of Health (Ms. Gordon).

It is a sad and 'storry' comment on what's happening in health care in our province, that one of the building blocks which was supposed to be an important build- ing block for health- care pro fessions, for regula ted professions, has gone so slowly and has taken so long. This bill would not have been necessary if the process had moved quickly. It is now being introduced as an alter native to the process, when, in fact, the answer should have been to accelerate the process and make sure that the colleges, the regulated professions, were, in fact, incorporated under the act.

The minister makes the excuse that this is due to the complexity of the process, but it's become quite clear that it's primarily a big bottle neck that the gov- ernment has put in place by not having sufficient staff. And it is a sad commentary that there are, in many areas of health care, not sufficient staff, and that we are being hampered in the delivery of care. There is a suspicion that th e problems that I described with Mr. Wayne Robert earlier today, many of them were related to a shortage of staff.

If you don't have enough staff, you can't get things done well and people will start cutting corners and things don't go as well, and often, they cost a lot more. So the government would've been much smarter to put in place the staff–the staff to get this job done, the staff to get many, many other jobs in health care. Ensuring that we have enough staff in allied health fields is critically important. We had a big rally at noon today, many objecting to the fact that it was more than five years and the allied health union has still not–allied health pro fessionals still don't have a contract.

This is clearly not acceptable, and this gov - ernment is causing problems for itself and for the province, and for health care in our province. Allied health pro fessionals are among the most critical of all. They perform many, many duties which are essential in health care, and this gov ernment should have been paying a lot more attention to them and making sure that they had a decent contract, because without that being settled, more and more are looking elsewhere where they're able to get bonuses and where they're–appear to be better supported.

So this bill is here because it shows and highlights a major failure of this government and the government before them. So, Madam Speaker, with those comments, I will sit down and will pass on. And I hope the government will hire the people and get the job done fast, but I am not optimistic, given their track record. Thank you. Mr. Jamie Moses (St. Vital): I just want to make a few points with respect to Bill 17, the regulated health professions amendment act. And, first, I want to begin

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2397 by saying that, today, we were fortunate to have members of MAHCP here at the steps of the Manitoba Legislature. Brad Michaleski, Acting Speaker, in the Chair That's health professionals in our province who are currently looking to negotiate a contract and get a fair deal for themselves with this province. * (15:00) And these health professionals are looking to work here in Manitoba. They're the folks who are working day in and day out to keep our health- care system working in conjunction with doctors and nurses.

Health-care professionals are the ones who service as the backbone. They're the diagnostic professionals. They're the X -ray techs. They're the paramedics. These are the people that keep our system moving from one spot to the next and they're critical to our health-care system.

They're critical to health of Manitobans, and for them to be ignored by this gov ernment the way they have been for over the past five years without a con - tract not only disrespects them but it hurts Manitobans who a re looking for a robust health -care system, a health-care system that they can rely on and one in which we can all have some confidence in. And that's all in jeopardy because of the decisions of this current government.

Now, with respect to Bill 17, it's important to note, first of all, that there are many health professions that are and have been seeking regulation–to be regulated as part of this act for a number of years. And it's in part due to the under -resourcing of folks within the government that has delayed this process for many health professions. And I know that has a significant impact. I've been a part of organi zations that have rolled into The Regulated Health Professions Act, and it's im portant to understand the amount of work that goes into it, the amount of time that it takes to complete the job.

And even while staffed, it does take quite a signi- ficant amount of work, effort and time. But you can imagine how much more it takes and how much more time eventually is wasted when departments are under- resourced as they have been under this government. I know there's health professions that have been trying to get under this act and be regulated for the better part of the last decade, and it hasn't happened, in large part, due to the short -staffed nature of the Health Department. And so I think that is certainly a frustration for many health professions.

And the other point I want to make on this is, simply put, that many of the health professions and our health-care system in general, has been misstaffed in quite a way. You know, it's a frustration for Manitobans, the Manitobans that I speak to across Winnipeg, across the suburbs of Winnipeg, across Manitoba, quite frankly, who expressed to me their frustration when they see announcements roll out around X millions of dollars and this much going here, but then they don't actually see action taken from this government.

They see, perhaps, numbers, and they don't see that translate into meaningful steps to make our health-care system better, and I think this is a prime example where we've seen health -care workers and allied health-care workers have been left back, been left behind.

You know, when we see health- care dollars go and we see large bureaucracy created, but then those monies don't actually get trickled down to health-care workers; when we see health -care workers not get listened to, or not be respected in the way that they should be, especially since they have been doing the work for many years, not just in the last few years when they've been so incred ibly inundated with shortages of health- care staff, but right through the pandemic.

You know, there's a worker who expressed today her own story of going to work through the pandemic and being feared for her ow n well-being during that experience, coming home when you think you'd get a reprieve from the stress of a work environment , of working in health care during the pandemic, only to isolate, to have to self-isolate from her family just so that she can go b ack out the next day and provide health care to Manitobans. Now, that's dedi cation and that's sacrifice. And what does that dedi cation and sacrifice from our health-care workers get in return from this gov ern- ment?

Well, it seems that they get disrespe ct without having a contract, without having a fair negotiation for over the past five years. And I think it's im portant to note all this with respect to Bill 17, that it's im portant for any gov ern- ment to build a good relationship with health- care workers, with the workers that are asking to do as much of the heavy lifting to support health care in our

2398 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 province, and this government hasn't been able to do that. They seem unwilling or uncapable to do that – perhaps both. I know on this side of the House we take that very seriously, and if we're given the opportunity, I think that we will certainly make those efforts in–for the workers in Manitoba. With respect to internationally trained health-care workers, who also will be impacted by the changes in Bill 17, it's important to note that there have been sig- nificant barriers that the internationally trained health professionals have faced.

It was said very eloquently by my colleague, the member for Union Station (MLA Asagwara), earlier today, as well the –my colleague, the member for Notre Dame (MLA Marcelino), in previous opportun- ities to speak in this Chamber, who've expressed the need to reduce barriers for folks who have been trained in health-care professions and want to come to work here in Manitoba. We all know the challenges around health -care shortages; that's been shared by many members, including the Premier (Mrs. Stefanson) herself, around national shortages in health-care workers.

And so when we have the opportunity to welcome in people into our province here in Manitoba, but also welcome in the people who are already trained in these health -care professions, why wouldn't we take every opportunity to let these people into our province and work in their field in our province?

There are many things, many steps, that we can take to make sure that these people have and can have their credentials recog nized and have any bridging programs looked at and making sure that the path is not just laid out for them and it's–that they don't have to take an assess –but that we simply look at the credentials they have and find ways that they can help to work in our health-care system and at least create a system in Manitoba where they have a shot–a realistic, affordable chance–of actually working in their health profession in Manitoba.

Because, right now, for many internationally edu- cated health professionals, the path is just impossible; it's just impossible with the current system that this govern- ment has set up; it's just impossible. And so we need to make that avenue more clear for people to follow, for internationally educated pro- fessionals to come into Manitoba and ensure that they are not only going to come and live here and raise a family and stay here, but that they can work and help to meet–help our province meet the health-care needs and the health-care challenges that we all face. And, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I also want to mention, you know, discussion I've had with some individuals who have been–who will be impacted by Bill 17. And, in particular, a discussion I had with an individual who's a psychologist. And, you know, she, you know, expressed, you know, some concern with respect to the regulated health professions amendment act. And she expressed this concern with the act in a couple of regards.

I think the concern, first of all, came from her honest inten - tion that–I think every health professional's intention– to do right by their patients and by com munity to ensure that there is healthy, vibrant com munities in Manitoba. Now, she expressed to me the concern about her profession, whether it would–in the future, after this bill passes–whether there would be a master's level requirement for psychologists here in Manitoba.

And I think when we're thinking about any health pro- fession and we're thinking about the requirements and educational requirements and needs to meet creden - tials and accreditation, it's im portant to think about how we can maintain a high level of standard so that Manitobans who are seeking those services know that they're going to be able to receive the best quality care.

And for this professional, who's thinking about the people and the Manitobans that she serves, this is on top of mind: H ow does she continue in the future to serve Manitobans as best as she possibly can, and how can she ensure that her profession is a ble to do this across the board ? Regardless of the region and 'recarless' of the type of service that they're able to provide in her profession, how does she ensure that it's going to be of high quality? And so, you know, this is some thing that she concerned with respect this bill.

And I would urge the government to make sure that all professions who are going to be moving forward in a health–a regulated health prof essions amend ment act are going to be ensuring that there is a high quality of care delivered by health professions and that those requirements are there as well. * (15:10) But I think the concern that this person shared with me when it comes to the ac t and what it meant for her profession, it also stemmed from the fact that she's very hesitant to trust this gov ernment when it comes to changes in our health-care system. And that

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2399 comes from the fact that this gov ernment has, quite frankly, turned its back on many health-care workers over the past number of years, when it comes to deleting positions, when it comes to cutting funding for health-care services, and that's both in the health - care depart ment, but even in the De partment of Education, which funds schools, for example, school psychologists or other health- care services that are provided there.

When there are cuts to other agencies that provide com munity-based health care, that pro - vide services that –for getting –receiving health, that might not touch a hospital. And it's important to recognize that these services play critical factor in the well -being of Manitobans. And so when you talk about how we ensure, you know, quality of care, and how do we ensure that Manitobans are able to rec eive the health care that they need, it's im portant that you also consider the areas that Manitobans might be receiving the type of health care not always directly funded through the Department of Health.

And when we consider all that, it's–I think it's–we would clearly see that this government has failed when it comes to providing a holistic approach to ensuring that Manitobans are as healthy as possible. And I think that, you know, that what we can do better, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is assure that we listen to those front-line staff, listen to the people who are servicing Manitobans day in and day out, understand the conditions within their– that they're working in, understand how we can lift them up and provide more resources for what they do and ensure that we listen to how they best think we can make the system work for more Manitobans, so that we can have more Manitobans access the care that they need, when they need it and where they need it. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'll leave my comments there.

Suffice it to say that we need to do a better job, and we call on this government to do a better job when it comes to supporting health -care workers in our province, making sure that they not only have the resources to do their job, making sure that they are adequately compensated for doing their job, but that Manitobans can accessibly access health-care resources and ensure that they're going to be receiving the best quality of care.

These are the sort of things that the Manitoba NDP will have as a No. 1 priority, and we continue to have as a priority, to ensure that every Manitoban can access the health care that they need. Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Acting Speaker (Brad Michaleski): Is there any further debate on this bill? Seeing none, is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. The Acting Speaker (Brad Michaleski): The question before the House is concurrence and third reading of Bill 17, The Regulated Health Professions Amendment Act (2).

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] I declare the motion carried. We'll now move on to Bill 7. [interjection] Point of Order The Acting Speaker (Brad Michaleski): The hon- ourable Minister of Environ ment and Climate, on a point of order. Hon. Kevin E. Klein (Minister of Environment and Climate): Earlier today, I acknowl edged the accom- plishments of the St. James Canucks hockey team, and I neglected to ask for leave to include the names of all the players on Hansard. And I would ask for that ability now.

The Acting Speaker (Brad Michaleski): Is there leave to –for the minister's request to include the members of the team in Hansard and put it in there after his member's statement? [Agreed] Bill 7–The Liquor, Gaming and Cannabis Control Amendment Act The Acting Speaker (Brad Michaleski): The hon- ourable–okay. We'll return back to Bill 7, the liquor and gaming and cannabis control amendment act. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Cullen), that Bill 7, The Liquor, Gaming and Cannabis Control Amendment Act, reported from the Standing Committee on Justice, be concurred in and be now read for a third time and passed. Thank you. Motion presented. Mr. Goertzen: So, I've put signi ficant words on the record regarding the details of this bill at second reading in addition to taking questions at that stage. The bill really provides for greater flexibility in the framework, allowing more businesses and service

2400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 models. The system in which our liquor is regulated in Manitoba is very complex with a number of dif - ferent licences. And as a result of a number of different business models and those looking for flexibility in how they serve alcohol, it has been shown to be a–not a very nimble system and not very open to new models of business that are being seen in other provinces and that are desired here in the province of Manitoba. There have been a couple of things that have occurred.

As an example, The Beer Can across the street is opened every summer, and there's been a bit of a workaround in terms of how that can work in the current regula tions for licensing of the serving of alcohol, but it's complicated and it's not exactly what the business, I understand, might be looking for. And so this allows for greater flexibility. Two examples came at com mittee. There was a company or an organi zation called the Pedal Pub, which has a very–I try to describe it the best I can –a very large bike where individuals face inward towards the table that's in the centre of that bike.

And in other provinces, they can license, they can serve alcohol on the Pedal Pub and they aren't under our current regula- tions and licensing system. The other company that came forward at commit- tee was Little Brown Jug, and they were concerned about the serving sizes they're allowed at events that are not in line with other provinces as well. So our executive director of the LGCA made a commitment that, with the passage of this bill, regula- tions would be developed that would benefit those two particular busi nesses.

Of course, there'd be many others of–that would be benefiting as well, and they have been–I know the critic indicated that that seemed like a kind of a rash decision, but they've been writing in for many months, if not years, to look for that change. So, with the passage of this bill, I understand that work can begin, and they're obviously desirous of having that in effect for summer and for the festiva l season, which, if you were to walk outside the Legislature today, you would realize is quickly upon us. So I look forward to this bill passing.

I thank those who came to com mittee for their pre sentations and I thank the liquor, gaming and control authority for their work in drafting this bill, which I think had been stalled by the opposition once in a previous session, but is now, I believe, ready to proceed for third reading passage and hopefully royal assent before June 1st. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): I appreciate the oppor- tunity to put a few words on the record. [interjection] And I should allow for all of the applause to conclude because I know, for Hansard, I know it's difficult for them to pick up on.

But, you know, I'm just so eager to speak to Bill 7, and I know that I have the support of my colleagues in doing so, so maybe I will just move forward and put just a few words on the record with regards to Bill 7. We certainly are in support of those busi nesses operating in Manitoba who, as the minister mention - ed, came to com mittee and identified specific issues that, you know, they had with the current regulations, the current legislation as it stands.

And we're certainly encouraged to know that t he government is starting to listen to those in dependent businesses, understanding that they are doing their level best to serve responsibly in this province, to pro- vide a service and to do so in a very responsible way. Any way that we can support them, we certainly want to send the message that we are in favour of doing so. * (15:20) There was some concern, I will add, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that in the com mittee process, you know, a presenter presented a specific situation which then prompted the minister to go over, talk to officials, and sort of come back and, on the fly, announce what regulations may or may not be, which I think is quite unprecedented in terms of the process; is very, very strange for a minister to do–operate in that fashion.

I would imagine there are a lot more people in the industry who have other situations that they'd like to bring forward to this gov ernment who just happened to not be at committee and so didn't get an assurance from the minister that their specific situation would be addressed. And it really does speak to our major concern with Bill 7–I should say one of our major concerns about Bill 7–because I will address both of our major concerns. The first major concern is that the minister is making up r ules on the fly, that it's all being done through regulation.

And at a time when we're trying to seek some clarity about this government's actual motives and intentions for the distribution of alcohol and spirits in this province, that instead of giving us that informa- tion, being transparent about what they're going to be doing, in this case they said, well, just trust us; we'll put it all in regulations. And I guess the minister will, at the public presentation table, take suggestions about

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2401 what those regulations should be and just implement them, you know, willy-nilly. I don't think that's the way that anybody expects government to be operating. I think that people expect that the rules that we set are in the best interests of the public, work with industry that is working collectively with government. I think that's the way that people expect that regulations are developed and legis lation is put forward. But, of course, we don't see that in this bill. What we see is another, jus t trust us and we'll get it right.

Well, Manitobans have seen what this gov ernment's intentions truly are when it comes to alcohol sales in this province. And that's, I think, why–as the minister, you know, indicated–this bill has seen some road bumps, some speed bumps as we've been going through the process. Of course, we work with industry; we want to see this move forward. But the government hasn't shown all their cards.

They've been very, very secretive in their plan, and we know why now because, of course, the other piece of legislation on the order paper–sorry, before this Legislature–that we did manage to kill are bills that specifically privatize our liquor system here in this province. And most Manitobans would under- stand why that's a bad idea. But, just in case they don't, I'll spend some time reminding them, you know, just what kind of benefits we see from having a strong Manitoba liquor control commission that is delivering alcohol in this province in a very tightly regulated way. First and foremost, of course, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, you'll know that the profit that MBLL receives goes directly back to the people of Manitoba. This is a–you know, there's huge profits involved when it comes to selling alcohol in this province, and Manitobans have said very clearly that if we collectively manage and responsibly deliver that, that we could see the benefits, in terms of the profits, going directly back to the things that matter: health care, education and, you know, so on down the list.

The is the kind of thing that Manitobans expect, that if we understand collectively that we can distribute it responsibly, that we should all then share in any kind of profits, and it should be for the benefit of Manitobans. It should be a positive–a net positive. Manitobans also understand that things like safety and security are important, right? So, you know, just in the last couple of years we have seen rising rates of violence; we've seen rising rates of theft, and those were, in many cases, concentrated at our MBLL loca- tions.

Those places in our province were targeted in many cases, and employees were put at risk. The public was put at risk. And we needed to take decisive action because, again, it's distributed centrally by the provincial gov- ernment. We were able to force the government to step in, to listen to those employees, to the MGEU members that represent those workers there, to step in and say, we need to do something differently, we need to make it safer, how can we do that? So it's upgrades to security, it was a whole new system that was implemented in terms of how ID was checked and how it was tracked.

This was all done because we had some level of control over the dis tri- bution at the consumer level. This was, you know, a hu ge change in how we operate here in this province that wouldn't have been possible if it was sold at every single, you know, store across the province with very little regulation. And we know that's what the provincial gov ernment, this PC government, is now trying to do. And, lastly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we know that this prov incial gov ernment, you know, is trying to open up the floodgates when it comes to who can distribute liquor in this province.

And the most damning evidence of that has been t heir recent meeting with executives or represen tatives on behalf of con- venience stores like 7-Eleven. You know, as soon as this privatization legislation was introduced, they sat down right away with people in the convenience store industry. And, you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are very concerned about that. We don't think that that is the way that Manitobans want to see liquor distributed in this province: without regula tion, at convenience stores, in every community throughout this province. That's not who we are.

We understand that we want to serve the customer. We want to make sure that it's a good customer exper- ience. I think most people –well, we know for a fact that it's been rated by Manitobans as a good customer experience at our MBLL locations. That's what we want to promote, and that's the kind of responsible dis- tribution that we want in this province. The government has taken a different track. Now, they're going to go out, they're going to knock on doors and they're going to get–hear from Manitobans. And I think Manitobans are smart enough to say –to

2402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 reject this kind of short-term political play and under- stand that, in the long run, this will hurt us as a province. So, you know, this bill probably would have moved through the legislative process much quicker had the government not been on a priva tization–had a priva- tization goal in mind with regards to dis tribution of alcohol in this province.

And I think that, you know, had the minister been more upfront a bout exactly what regula tions, what changes are being in the legis lation, been more specific, I think there would have been, you know, more support going forward. That being said, we did listen to the presenters at committee. There, I'm sure, are man y more in the industry who are willing to work with gov ernment. I hope that they'll take the initiative to work collectively with them.

You know, listen to the message that they're sending, that they are trying to be partners in this and they're trying t o be responsi ble and they simply want a government that will listen to them. So, we do support this bill moving forward, and we do expect that, you know, we'll hear much more from the industry as times change, as expectations of consumers change and we hope to continue to listen to that as we go out and send a message that we support our public workers, we support those in the industry. And we'll send that message every day on the doorstep in the next election. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Ms.

Cindy Lamoureux (Tyndall Park): I'm happy to rise this afternoon and share a few words about Bill 7, The Liquor, Gaming and Cannabis Control Amendment Act. I recognized it is a piece of legis lation that has been debated and brought forward a few ti mes, and many members of the House have had oppor tunities to debate the legislation, and so I'll keep my remarks short here this afternoon. The bill creates more opportunities for businesses and restaurants to sell liquor with delivery and takeout, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

And I know when this bill was first introduced this time around, the government had made an an nouncement about how this would really help businesses that had been struggling throughout the pandemic. And I actually respect th is, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that is a wonderful asset and part of this legis- lation. But it does make me question why the govern- ment didn't do more during the actual pandemic. You know, during the pandemic, there were many different grants and ideas that could have been brought forward to help more small businesses and businesses through- out the entire province.

And we did see some come from the federal gov- ernment. Here in Manitoba, we did have the Manitoba Bridge Grant. But I think there were m ore that we could be doing at that time, and it's disappointing that we had to wait until now to, sort of, outreach our hands and help the small busi nesses, Mr.

Deputy Speaker. * (15:30) I think it's important that we flag that, when it comes to this legislation and alcohol being delivered, that there is an adequate screening of sorts taking place, ensuring that, when those who are ordering alcohol, whether it through–be through apps or through the restaurants, ensuring that those planning to partake in the alcohol are over the age of 18. And that was not debated here in the House, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and I think it is really important that we have a strong understanding of that, we have the con fidence in the legis lation that those who are purchasing are being adequately screened. I know at com mittee last week, we had a few presenters, and they shared wonderful pre sentations and had many members of the committee questioning different parts of that legis lation, and it was very thoughtful perspective being brought forward.

And I think that this legis lation, it would, if I understand it correctly, help better utilize cups for one, and this could be –go toward being environmentally friendly and using the resources that we have in Manitoba, and it allows for our vendors to actually fill cups. And I'm thinking about, for example, at music festivals. Manitoba, we take a lot of pride in our music festivals. We have Folk Fest, and I'm sure some of my colleagues maybe partici pated in Folk Fest over the years themselves.

And we've got Rainbow Trout and Harvest Moon and jazz fest, and at all these festivals, they will be affected by this legis lation in the sense that they will be able to fill cups differently. And it was just an interesting perspective to learn and hear about at the com mittee stage, and I want to thank the presenters for sharing that with us.

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2403 And I recognize we're May here in the Legislature. That means we're almost in the summer. We can argue it's summer out there right now; it's quite hot. And that means this bill has to be not only passed but imple - mented if we want–very soon, if we want our Winnipeg and our Manitoba music festivals to be able to take advantage of it this year. With those few words, I appreciate the opportun- ity to speak to the bill at third reading. Thank you. The Acting Speaker (Brad Michaleski): Is there any further speakers? Seeing none, is the House ready for the question?

An Honourable Member: Question. The Acting Speaker (Brad Michaleski): The question before the House is concurrence in third reading of Bill 7, The Liquor, Gaming and Cannabis Control Amendment Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] I declare the motion carried. Bill 16–The Domestic Violence and Stalking Amendment Act The Acting Speaker (Brad Michaleski): We will now move on to Bill 16, The Domestic Violence and Stalking Amendment Act. Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Families (Ms.

Squires), that Bill 16, The Domestic Violence and Stalking Amendment Act, reported from the Standing Com mittee on Justice, be concurred in and be now read for a third time and passed. Motion presented. Mr. Goertzen: The legislation, as it is presented before the House, I've spoken to it in detail at second reading.

It really is a response to the work that's been hap- pening within the family court system in trying to ensure that there are more avenues and ways for individuals who are dealing with family issues, sometimes involving domestic violence, but often more resulting in family disputes that have protec tion orders then levelled against individuals, to try to deal with those matters out of court.

We know that dealing with them in court often results in more conflict, certainly more costs and not always the best outcome for the individuals who are in a family court proceeding, and often not the best interests of the children.

So there's been a great deal of effort by this gov- ernment to ensure that there are other avenues by which these disputes can be dealt with, and dealt with in a way that's more sensitive to the families and to the children–so even when it comes to sharing custody or being able to be in agreed- upon mediation, even if there's a protection order in place, for the parties agree to be into–in some sort of a collaborative effort and a family sharing arrangement.

The challenge is that, with protection orders, often folks in the system are finding inadvertent breaches of protection orders where the parties them selves had agreed to partici pate in some sort of a process by which they could try to resolve issues or mediate issues, but an individual who had a protec tion order against them would then be inadvertently breaching the order by participating. So that, again, is one brief example. There were others that I provided at second reading.

But this is a response to the fact that we are trying to, where possible and where appropriate, allow for families and others who are in domestic disputes to move those disputes away from the court system and to find a resolution in a way that often provides a better result. Thank you very much. MLA Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): Well, I want to thank members opposite for the warm welcome to the debate this afternoon, and I am pleased to put a couple of words on the record in respect of Bill 16, The Domestic Violence and Stalking Amendment Act.

So, I did speak to this bill on–at second reading, Assistant Deputy Speaker–or, Acting Deputy Speaker– and I would suggest or I would hope that everybody in this House would appre ciate and concur with the Minister of Justice that we do –you know, when we have opportunities that we can strengthen legis lation in respect of the protec tion of women or families, I think that we can all stand behind that. And so, certainly, as I said in debate on second reading, we are supporting Bill 16. You know, families have enough to navigate when they are in the justice system, whatever that may look like.

You know, either it's custody arrangements or case conferencing at, you know–developing, you know, child maintenance and custody arrangements. And often there are scenarios in which there is a protection order against one of the parents. And so, I think it is

2404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 16, 2023 an opportunity to do things in a better way that hope- fully works to safeguard families and certainly puts the best interest of children at the forefront. As I said in second reading debate, you know, one of the things that I am concerned with–which, you know, I would suggest that the minister hasn't necessarily, you know, put on the official record anything to, kind of, alleviate those concerns –but one of the things is that, you know, when there are protec tion orders, particularly in respect of domestic violence and stalking.

And, you know, now we're putting in legis lation that would allow folks to come into some semblance of contact with one another, my fear–and some of the fears that I've heard from different members in the community–is that, when you create an oppor tunity for contact and whatever that may look like –you know, perhaps those folks are still not talking, or whatever–but an individual knows where another – where the individual that has a protec tion order against them, where they're going to be, it does certainly raise the risk to that individual.

And so, you know, that's some thing that I think we need to be very cognizant of as Bill 16 receives royal assent and becomes law in Manitoba. You know, how do we of fer those pro tections to ensure that if an individual comes into contact, for whatever the reason may be, even though–if that contact is lawful, it does put a person at risk. And we know the nature of domestic violence and stalking is that if somebody wants to get to you, if somebody wants to do harm to you, often people will be very methodical in that. Often they will plan that out.

Often they will obsess on how they're going to see you again, how they're going to get into contact with you, where you're staying, where you're at, who you're with, who you're hanging out with, who you're talking to. * (15:40) And so, you know, that is the nature of domestic violence; that is the nature of stalking. And so, I really hope that alongside this legis - lation, that there are those ad ditional protections and measures to make sure that everybody is safe.

And, you know, in respect of protec tion orders– and I know that the minister will know this–that, you know, we on this side of the House have been raising concerns in respect of protection orders and the ability for predominantly women to be able to get protection orders actually ordered for their very protection.

And we know that just a little while ago there was a lot of concern coming out from community that, you know, half of the protec tion order applications were denied, and they were denied because of, you know, the context or the inter pretation of what constituted, like, imminent danger: Was this individual who was applying for a protection order in imminent danger? And so, I still think that there's a lot of work that needs to be done to protect protection orders.

And I shared during the second reading that I was actually working with two different Indigenous women that were trying to get protec tion orders, and despite them feeling that they were in imminent danger, them and their children were in imminent danger, both of their protection orders–it involved the same individual. So, they both went for protec tion orders. T hey both felt that they were imminent danger. They both felt that their children were in imminent danger from this common individual that was in their lives. Both of their pro tection orders were not approved; they were declined.

And both of those folks had to go again and reapply. They had to get lawyers. They had to pay lawyers for advice, and they had to go again to get protection orders. And they did. But some of those protection orders were not long lasting. And now the individual –which is exa ctly what's being laid out here, is they do have now protec tion orders against them–but this individual is applying for full custody of both of these individuals' children. And so, this legislation will bring in–these women, because of this legislation, will be in some form of contact with this individual.

So, it is certainly some thing that we need to be very cognizant of and certainly something, like I said, we still have a lot of work to do in this province, not only with respect of protec tion o rders but just in general in respect of domestic violence or gender - based violence and stalking. I don't think any of us in this room should be proud of the fact that we have some of the highest levels of violence, gender -based violence, against Manitobans. That's not something to be proud of.

And I would suggest to members in the House that that number has only grown exponentially in–you know, after COVID, like during COVID and certainly after. And those numbers have only grown exponentially. And one of the reasons why–you know, we know what the pandemic did. It forced people to be stuck

May 16, 2023 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2405 together in a residence or in a space. People couldn't leave. We know that, you know, shelters were not allowed to take anybody. Everybody was in lock - down, and it forced you to be with your abuser, with no way to escape that. But what it–but what's also happened, Acting Assistant Deputy Speaker, is that there's been signifi- cant cuts to those social services, or those social services infrastructure, that typically helped folks in–who are facing domestic violence or stalking or gender -based violence.

And so, what we've seen since 2016 is like just these, you know, cuts and cuts. And, you know, here's a really good example, and I remember –I know that members opposite remember this v

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	42-5-55b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	42nd 5th hansardpdf 55b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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