Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Monday, February 19, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 7

February 19, 1973 1 Tape 151, Pagel -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.rn. P"r. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER, Order please! HON. F.D.MOORES (Premier), Mr~ Speaker, I would like to pay tribute at this time to Mr. Harold Mifflin, who passed away yesterday at the age of 62. In the passing of Harold !4'ifflin, Newfoundland has lost a well-k-nown and great son. His activities in the fishing industry have made him a recognized leader. I pay tribute to his dedicated promotion of the salt fish industry and his outstanding service with the Fish Trades Association and the Newfoundland Association of Fish Exporters.

On behalf of the government I move that this House eo on record as recording its sympathy on the death of Hr. Mifflin, and that this expression of sympathy be communicated to his family. HON. E.N.ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in behalf of my colleagues I am happy to second that motion and to associate ourselves with the sentiments advanced by the Premier. This is the second time in as many days in this House that we hnve been called upon to note the death of a prominent citizen, }fr. Harold Mifflin was a relatively young man.

Bishop O'Reilly had lived his three score and ten and indeed ~as a year or two beyond that,

whereas Mr. Mifflin was I believe sixty-two at the time of his death. I think he was probably well-known to most members of the House. He was not only a leading figure in the salt fish industry as the Premier has reminded us and in the fresh fish industry,through the family enterprises, he took a leading

part in the community life of Catalina and of the whole area,that whole tip of the Bonavista Peninsula. I believe he was,for a number of years, Mayor of Catalina. (Am I correct?) and he served in a number of other civic capacities. I had the pleasure to know him fairly well over the years. He was the sort of man of whom Newfoundland could be proud and I am sure 467

February 19, 1973, Tape 151, Pate 2 -- apb all Newfoundland will mourn his loss. I helieve his widow survives as well as his brother, Fr. Justice }lifflin of the Hir;h Court. I would hope the Clerk will send resolutions to hath of them. I assume the motion will pass unaniwously. Motion, that the House go on record as recording its sympathies on the death of Harold }l'ifflin and that this expression of sympathy be communicated to his family~ carried. PETITIONS: MR. f.J .AYLWARD, Hr. Speaker, I beg leave to present n petition from the residents of Arnold's Cove.

The prayer of the petition is for the upgrading and paving of the road from the Trans-Cnnadn to the Town of Arnold 1 s Cove. The petition itself is signed by over 500 individt.mlR, Mr. Speaker, and the prayer of the petition reads ns follows; ''He the under;signed residents of the Town of Arnold's Cove hereby affix our names on a petition. The request is for the upgrading and paving of roads in our town~ This request applies not only to the r.iain road which is under the control of the department hut also local roads and branch roads which provide access to the various sec.ti.ons of our town.

Sarne of these roads are under the control of the Town Council of Arnold 1 s'Cbve. The condition of the roads in this municipality is one of the most pressing and hazardous problems which confront the residents. In several places the sides of the roads have become dangerously eroded .and culverts have been broken dmm. Eroded roads, broken culverts, plugged drains and potholes all play a contributing factor to making our roads impassable. 11 Then they find out, Hr.

Speaker, and I will not delay the House with all the details, but they hrint! or ask to have brought to the attention of this honourable House two very important factors which 463

February 19, 1973, Tape 151, Page 3 - apb merit consideration from the Department to which this petition will relate and that is the pronounced increase in the population of this municipality. In fact, Arnold's Cove in 1961 had a population of 213, in 1966 a population of 378 and in the last census~in 1971, it had a population of over 919, which shows an· increase of over two hundred percent since 1961, and in the last five years another increase of one hundred percent in population. This pronounced increase, Mr.

Speaker, results from a large number of people moviniz from the islands in Placentia Bay and also.of course, from individuals seeking or obtainin~ employment at Procon$ Because of the increased 469

February 19, 1973 Tape no. 152 Page l - Mm/ population and also because of the proximity of the town to the Come-by-Chance complex, it is imperative that the road in this municipality and in particular, of course, this main road from the Trans Canada to Arnold 1 s Cove be upgraded and paved. I ask that this petition be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. S.A.

NEARY: I support the petition presented by the hon. member for Placentia East on behalf of 500 residents of Arnold's Cove to have their road upgraded and paved from the Trans Canada Highway down through the community. The irony of all this, Mr~ Speaker, is that Arnold's Cove is a community that never should have been. The people moved in from the islands in Placentia Bay against the wishes of the resettlement people and it is probably a good thing that they did because they have built up one of the most prosperous communities, I suppose, in that part of Newfoundland.

Now, of course, it has become all the more important because of the construction of the oil refinery at Come-by-Chance. I think it is a very reasonable requestJ Sir. Unfortunately, the Minister of Highways or the Minister of Transportation and Communications is not in his seat today but I am sure the petition will reach his desk. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that the government will see their way clear to grant the prayer of the petition. On motion petition received. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES HON. A. J. MURPHY (Minister of Social Assistance) Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to table a copy of the Child Welfare Amendment Regulations, 1972. NOTICE OF MOTION HON. T. A. HICKMAN: {Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, 11An Act Further To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act. 11 470

February 19, 1973 Tape no. 152 Page 2 QUESTIONS MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Highways but he is not here. I assume he is in Corner Brook attending - AN HON. MEMBER: He is snow bound. MR. ROBERTS: He is snow bound. Well that is appropriate - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I assumed he was in Corner Brook at His Excellency's funeral. Perhaps in his absence the hon. the Premier could take the question as notice. I doubt that he has the answer but he could find it out. By way of explanation, S~r, I have had a number of phone calls from the Cormnunity of Hampden.

Apparently the community has now been cut off by road for four days. The one tractor in the area, I am told, is at The Beaches which, as the Premier knows, is a community not far from Hampden. It is out of fuel. There is no fuel in Hampden. I am told that the nearest fuel depot is Deer Lake. The people are wandering what can be done to give them communications. The matter has become m9re urgent. There was a death there. The doctor, Dr.Misikt an employee of the Department of Health or the Minister of Health, died and 1 gather it was a fairly grim task of moving his remains to Deer Lake and on the town for burial.

AB always there was a pregnant woman who was coming into labour and it took eleven hours to move her, to, I assume, Corner Brook. The problem is a real one. I wonder if the Premier (I realize he can only take it as notice) would find out and perhaps let the House know. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition said, I will have to take it as notice but in the meantime, in the absence of the Minister of Highways, my office will follow through and find out what can be done so that the Minister of Highways will be in a position to answer the question on tomorrow. MR. P.S. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. ls it correct that the minister 471

February 19, 1973 Tape no. 153 Page 3 Mr~ Thoms now has in his possession the Cook Report and if so could the minister inform. this House if and when this report will be presented to this House? HON. E. MAYNARD (Minister of Agriculture and Forests): Yea, Mr9 Speaker, it is correct that I have a draft copy of the Cook Report. It has not been done up into final form. I assume it could not take any more than two or three weeks before it could be presented to the House. MR.

NEARY: Mr~ Speak.er, I wonder if the Minister of Mines and Energy would indicate to the House when he plans on making a statement on the situation at the Buchan's Mine? HON. L. BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energy): Mr. Speaker, I had this ready for this afternoon when an opportunity arose. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Bell Island requested information concerning reports with respect to the phasing down of Buchan 1s Mine~ I believe this is the tenor of the question. radio reports. I assume this arose from the newspaper reference and Mr.

Speaker, as I am informed this is a perennial question that has arisen many times over the past years, the question of 4.., •) I !.

February 19, 1973 Tape 153 how the Buchan's Mine would continue to operate and presumably in the past as today the matter has revolved around the ore reserves available to the mine. The information supplied me by my officials is that there are proven reserves in the Buchan's Hine for another five to six years. In fact there is a continuing exploration pro~ramme in effect there and really it is only when the reserves are proven and there is no exploration programme that you can get any idea of when the mine will close. The exploration programmes in the past have managed to find additional reserves.

We are hopeful that the exploration programmes in the future uill find other reserves and really that is the only information I could give. Other than that the officials of my department will be in continuous touch with the company so as to obtain adequate notice in the event that there is any change or any foreseeable time when the mine will be phasing out. .JM - l MR. S.A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the hon. minister a supplementary question?

Does the hon. minister know or is he aware and perhaps if he is not he could find out from his officials if exploration and diamond drillinp at Buchans has been discontinued because I think this is how the rumors started that somebody found out that the exploration in Buchans had been discontinued? MR. BARRY: No, the infonnation that I have from my officials, Mr. Speaker, is that the exploration programme will be continuinr, at least for another year and the way it is worded here, another year or so. So that is about all I can say.

I can check and if there is anything different to report I could report back to the hon. member. MR. NEARY: Well I would appreciate it, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. m:i.nister would double check and I thank him for answerinp: the question. I would like to direct a question also to the hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. I would like to ask the minister what time the minister or the government intends to table the Hattenhauer Royal 473

February 19, 1973 Tape 153 JM - 2 Commission Report on safety and health hazards at the phosphorous plant in Long Harbour. MR. SPEAKER: I would like to rule this question out of order since I feel it could be placed on the Order Paper. I do not think the answer is an urgent one that requires the answer at the present moment. So I feel that this question should go on the Order Paper. MR. P.S. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. Could the minister inform this House as to what has been the rate of increase in the Hoyles Home each year since 1966?

MR. SPEAKE~: I think the hon. member's question can be placed on the Order Paper as well. MR. E.W. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the hon. the Premier? Is he in a position to infonn the House if there are discussions going on between the PsOVernment and Spencer Lake regarding the development to take place at Bay d 1 Espoir and if so, what kind of developments are proposed? MR. MOORES: Hr. Speaker. to answer that~ sometime ato I was involved in discussions along that line. Since that time for some months 1 have not but I understand that the Minister of Industrial Development has 474

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 154 NM - 1 MR. MOORES: had discussions. At what level they are right now, I do not think they are certainly at any conclusive stage but if he would care to bring the House up-to-date on where they are or whether he thinks it is in the best interest at this time to carry on negotiations privately, I think I would ask him to reply to the question. HON. WM. DOODY, MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT: Sir, the discussions are on on-going with the Lake Interests with regard to the Bay D'Espoir development.

They are not sufficiently concrete at this time to be able to give a difinitive answer to this House. We have had proposals which we are considering. We are discussing them with the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Association. We want to get the federal people involved in this. It is a pretty large and far-reaching area of concern that would be of tremendous benefit to that area of Newfoundland if indeed we can get it moving. I undertake to keep this House informed of progress when we have anything tangible to report. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Premier.

Would the Premier indicate to the House if the government or the Premier have had any discussions with the officials of the phosphorus plant at Long Harbour concerning production problems or lack of production? If so, will the Premier indicate to the House what action is going to be taken about these problems? If there will be an increase in the work force or if there will be a cut back in the work force or just what the situation is? If the Premier has the information, J would like for him to give it to the House? MR.

SPEAKER: I think that the same information might have been in the honourable member's question before and as such should very well go on the Order Paper. 475

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 154 NM - 2 MR$ THOMS: Mr~ Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. In view of the report which the minister tabled in this House, I believe it was on Thursday, would the minister consider subsidizing the rates that are now paid by eleven, at least eleven of the occupants which are I believe $617 per month? MR. OTTENHEIMER: I do believe the honourable gentleman's question is one, very specifically and clearly of government policy which I think would be precluded as a question in this area - MR. ROBERTS: On a Point of Order, Mr.

Speaker 1 the honourable gentleman is completly wrong. The citations in Beauchesne say that an oral question on the precedents mey be allowed if it contains an area of government policy that is very large. I mean, it is quite in order for Mr. Speaker to rule that the question should be for the Order Paper. It is quite in order for the honourable minister to decline to answer - both of those. But the honourable gentleman from St Mary's is completely out of order if he thinks a question may not be asked on a matter of government policy.

As a matter of fact many of the questions that are asked are a matter or are directed towards the matter of government policy. If the question period is not, Your Honour, to be allowed to deal with matters of government policy, then let us end what would then be only a charade. If we are going to develop a meaningful question period in this House, let us not have this nit-picking from the honourable gentleman from St Mary's. I think his point of order is specious, Sir* MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, before your ruling if I may, again I I think a consulation with authorities will show that questions which are anticipatory of government policy are in a somewhat different category. Naturally both the honourable gentleman and I both await your ruling.

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 154 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER: I think this is quite correct, questions that are said to anticip.ate government policy a.re out of order. I think the honourable gentleman's question was such. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the impending negotiations between the union and the company 477

February 19, 1973 Tape 155 PK l at the phOFrphorous plant in Long Farhouro I wonder if he would he in a position to ma'ke a statement which I consider to he urgent. as to whether or not there has heen any negotiation hetween the government and the plant concerninp; production problems at Lonp: Harr>our? I thank the honourable member for Bell Island in raising the question. It requires 'rasi.cally the same answer as before, and thus could he put on the Order Paper. AN HON. ?,,!EHTIFR: Inaudible. HR. SPEAKER: Order please! ORDFRS OF TUE DAY HR SPEAKFR: Order, please. On motion of the Fon.

Pinister of Provincial Affairs. a Rill. "An Act Respecting An Administrator For Lake Apartments'" carried. PR _,Sf_EA~.f~" When ;;hall thi;;, h:ill be read a second time? HON. F.M. ROBFRTS (Leader of the _D_pyosition): }1r. ~peaker. we do want to know exactly the reasoninp, hehind the hill, vhich of course the minister. in second reading, T ass1w.e will explain. If that is so, and if it is what we understand it rnay he, we are prepared to consent on our side to allow it to go winp-ing through today. We certainly do agree to second reading, in any event.

On motion hill ordered read a second time now, by leave~ HON. T. HICKEY: (MINISTFR OF PFOVINCIAL AFFAIRS /\ND ENVIF:,,ON?-ffNT): Mr. Speaker, the principle of this bill is to provide for the administrator for Lake Apartments. The reason for the hill coming before the House is hecause of the situation which exists in that apartment building at the present time. I could give detailed information. Mr. Speaker,as regards to the operation there, but there is a case before the courts and that 1 he.lieve precludes g-vinr, certain information for fear it would prejudice one side or the other.

However. 1 can inform the House that the situation is such that it is urgent. The tenants are unable to decide to whom they should pay their 473

February 19, 1973 Tape 155 PK - 2 rent. The tenants have been, certain tenants have been threatened. They have heen harassed. There is a state of chaos existing at the moment. This bill all it would do and it provides that it he done only in this particular case,it is not as though it were to remain a statute or apply to any other. It is a one time issue so as to speak. It provides for the appointing of an administrator to receive the rent~~ to hold such rents in trust, to adminiRter the normal affairs of that apartment building, to use what monies that may be necessary,from the rents collected, to provide for nonnal maintainence and services. 479

February 19, 1973 Tape 156 IB-l Mr. Speaker. it is only out of the urgency of it that the bill comes before the House.

We attemped tn sort this matter out bv other means and as I said,hecause of the fact that the case is before the House. that the case is before the courts rather, thnt was impossi.ble. ! might also point out that one of the claimants in the case before the courts made anp1ication and the courts refused that application. ~y understanding is that it was refosed on the basis that it might nrejudice the case, So, we hnve no alternative if we are going to ;rotect the rights of the tenant!'!- but to take this step which we hesitated in taking but it has reachfd the stage where the hydro mav be cut off at anv time, where neople are being threatened with eviction and certainlv the r1.ghts and the genernl well-he1ng of the tenants is not being protected and I feel that the only responsihle reove is to move in this direction.

It is with pleasure" Mr. Speaker, that I move second reading. ~R. SPEAKER: The hon. member from St. John 1 s South. MR. n. WELLS: The m:i.nister having introduced this bill and explained it, I feel that having perhaps :more factual knowledge than any.other member of the House about this narticular matter,because I happen to be acting in the case before the courts, 1 think J ought to speak. I think I ought to make clear at the verv outset that the principle and the matters set forth in this bill rlo not confer any advantap:e on anv party before the court. Therefore~,! have no hesitation in speaking on the bill.

The gist of the matter i~, Mr. Speaker, that there is an action before the Supreme Court of Newfoundland which is poing on at this time and is to resume again shortlv, to decide who owns Lake Apartments~because that fact has been disputed for some months past. As the hon. the minister has said, the fact that there is a dispute has put hardship on the tenants of Lake Apartments,Limited. I 480

February 19, 1973 Tape 156 IR-2 think we have got to - we are at the stage at the moment where approximately eighty-five percent of the tenants are paying rent to Lake Apartrnents,Limited. The other fifteen percent are paying rent to the other purvorted owner. This is an intolerahle situation. A lot of tenants 0r a certain number of tenants have decided and I cannot blame them in the circumstances,that thev ought to nay no rent at all. Of course that is also a ridiculous situation because there are heavy mortga~e commitments to he made on this apartment building.

Also, Newfoundlan1 Lipht and Power have to he paid and the other people who Provide services have to be paid, snow clearing,etc.

I feel that although the case, the actual hearing of the case 1n court may well conclude within a matter of three or four weeks, it may be the iudgement may not be rendered for a matter of perhaps months because it is a very complex matter t feel on the question of principle nf thi.s bill, I feel there is not any doubt that it ought tn be passed, I can see no case or no way there it can confer an advanta~e on either of the parties before the court. 1t simplv nrotects the tenants in that thev can then pav their rent to the administrator t•ho would he apnointed under the act.

The administrator could then pav the mortgage payu.ents which are quite heifty and have to be met from the rents~ The administrator can provide for snow-clearing, for oavment of Newfound·· land Light and Power, alJ these hills which must be paid in a regular fashion otherwise the apartment grinds to a halt and the oersons who suffer most in that case would be the tenants. So, I have no heB:i.tatlon in sunporting the principle of this bill, Mr. Speaker.

It occured to me just before the hon. minister introduced the bill, and I will deal with this in detail vhen we come to clause three, that I think perhaps something should be added. Yes, that is a point that I would deal with too when we come to clause bv clause consideration of the hill. The other point is at the 481

February 19, 1973 Tape 156 IB-3 end of clause three subsection one. all matters arising during the period of the administration and I would add, and any acti.ons now outstanding against anv tenant for non-payment of rent shall be stayed tmtil the determination of ownership by the Supreme Court. The reason that I would ask the House to include that

section is 482

February 19, 1973, Tape 157, Page 1 -- apb this, that I understand,even as late as this morning, that certain actions have been taken in court against tenants for non-payment of rent. I can appreciate the position in which the tenants find themselves,being sued and not knowing to whom they should pay the rent and in fact the court having great difficulty in determining the outcome of such an action anyway. I think that all actions for payment of rent should be stayed, actions that is by any or either of the claimants.

But of course, if the administrator (and this is implicit in the act anyway) ns appointed by the minister wants to take action for rent, of course he would have every right to do so. I will, in some detail.when we cor:ie to that particular clause deal with it and propose that that also should be added. I think the honourable Leader's point about negligence, that could be something else that could be considered also. I would like to stress to the House that for the sake of these tenants in Lake Apartments, I feel that this bill ought to be passed and an administrator enabled to be appointed. l'R. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, from our point of view, we have no objection to the bill and we are quite prepared to support it havinp, heard the explanation of the minister and even more helpfully, the honourable gentleman from St. John's South. I know nothing at all about the affairs of Lake Apartments Limited or whatever the company is actually called other than what I have read in the newspapers. I may say that it is one of the more interesting and Graustarkian cases of which I have read in our courts in sometime. I have no idea what the rights and wrongs of it are and in any event that is not our function as a legislature.

I am naturally somewhat reluctant in ordinary circumstances to see the government or this House act in respect of any individual action before the courts. 483

February 19, 1973, Tape 157, Page 2 - aph I think it is a precedent that should be approached very warily because it would be very easy to get to the stage where any contestants in an action before Her r"ajesty 1 s Court could come to us and ask us to resolve it by le~islation. _ 1 see the 1-finister of Justice is nodding in agreement. I think that it is a principle that we could all agree on ouite heartily. In this case however, there does not seem to he any other way out of it. Perhaps we should have generic legislation of this sort.

As I understand it, all we are beinp, asked to do here, we have a case where two parties claim each owns all or part of the estate,the Lake Apartments Limited or whatever the company is called. There is quite a considerable squabble as to owes and who owns ~ow much, what and to whom. The tenants are caught in the middle. I assume the tenants are quite vtilling to pay their rents if they could only find somebody who could receive the rent and give them a good receipt therefor. Also, as the gentleman from St. John's South has pointed out, somebody must pay the various mortgagees.

I assume that it is Central Mortgage. Does Mr. Bootwals hold a number, a whole series of mortgages, the second to the sixteenth inclusive or to that effect? He puts then forth as mortgages. Also of course, for the utilities, the hydro and what have you. We go along with it. I do hope it is not a precedent. I do hope that we do not get into this sort of situation again. If we do in Newfoundland, perhaps the government would wish to look at generic legislation. We are now getting a number of apartment buildings around. We have had the "trot around the block" with Mr.

Craig Dobbin's enterprises, where the honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs and latterly the gentleman from St. Johnts East Extern, the Minister of Provincial Affairs,sort of looked at something for months and in the end,much like nHumpty Dumpty",came out about wher.e they started. 484

February 19~ 1973, Tape 157. Page 3 -- apb We are goinr: to have more and more prohlems with apartments in this province because we are going to have more and more anartments. I assume the Landlord And Tenant Act will be back on the Order Paper this session if it has not made its appearance yet. But it is - is it back? 485

February 19, 1973 Tape 158 I am sorry. We need not have given it a second reading in a fit of weakness but it is basically a good piece of legislation and we may need more along these lines. JM - l The only other point I will rr~ke is to follow up the point made by the gentleman from St. John's South, Sir.

As I read section (3), although there are specific words it may touch the principle of the bill and I put it forth in that hope~ As I read it,and I do not claim to be that learned in the law, the administrator. the gentleman acting as administrator can act negligently but as lon~ as he does not act maliciously he is held harmless against any action. I do not agree with that.

I think anybody should be required to act as a reasonably prudent man would in the circumstances and if whoever is to be appointed the administrator acts negli~ently then I think he should be prepared to take the consequences just as any other citizen would in the normal course of any business dealings. So perhaps at committee stage we could look at that in addition to the point the ~entleman from St. John 1 s South has made about actions being taken in respect of grants that are claimed to be owed. The only thing I would ask. Mr.

Speaker. is if the minister in closing the debate, whenever that romes. could perhaps indicate what type of administrator he intends to appoint. I am su~re he has given it some thought. Would he appoint a lawyer? Would he appoint the Re~istrar of the Supreme Court, I do not know if that is possible or not? I am concerned about the question of fees to make sure the)t. are reasonable. I assume they will be horned by Lakeside Apartments Limited. These are points which should be dealt with as we do not want large fees being run up by somebody who is not qualified, Ye do not want large fees being run up by anybody.

I think it would be helpful if the minister could assure us as I am sure is the case that he has a qualified administrator in mind whom he intends to appoint. 486

February 19, 1973 Tape 158 JM - 2 MR. NEARY: Another S20,000 a year job. MR. ROBERTS: No, it should not. That is the whole point it should not be another $20,000 a year or even a $10,000 a year job. Also since the fees in the long run will come out of the estate. out of Lakeside Apartments Limited - Well~ I will yield to the hon. gentleman for St. John's South. MR. SPF.AKER~ Before the hon. gentleman for St. John's South continues maybe the hon. members have noticed a group of students in the public galleries on my left. I intended to welcome these earlier but it was not possible for them to arrive.

Amongst this group are twenty-five students from Neepawa Area Collegiate of Neepawa, Manitoba. This ~roup with their teachers,Mr. and Mrs. Peter Isaac 1 are ~uests of twenty-four student city schools here. It is indeed a pleasure on behalf of all members of this hon. House for me to welcome you here today and trust that you will come hack and see us again sometime. MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour would perhaps like to remind the students in the galleries that our clock is a gift of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba when we became a province.

I guess that is why the buffaloes are there, it is Manitoba's provincial symbol, MR. SPEAKER: That is right. That is correct. MR. R. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, on the point raised by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, it is not covered in the act and I am sure the minister will make it clear. My thinking in this matter,after it was raised, was that all costs,of course, of this would be borne by Lake Apartments Limited or by whomsoever owns the apartment after the court decides that.

I certainly should not imagine and should not think that this ought to be 1 in any sense the cost of this borne by the public of this province. MR. ROBERTS : I thank the hon. gentleman. I was not saying that but I want to make sure the costs are reasonable because it is like arguing 487

February 19, 1973 Tape 158 JM - 3 pver a well. In the long run it is what is left in the estate that pays for it and we have all heard about and perhaps it has not been a practise but we have seen cases where when the various parties into the well were through there was nothing left for whoever got what was there. MR. WELLS: Well, if that happened in a case like this,whichever party was held to have ownership 1be seized of the apartments,would have the right to go to court to have the size of the bill adjudicated upon if there were any fees. MR.

ROBERTS: It was that right to go to court to try to determine things arising out of Lake Apartments Limited that got us into this in the first place, Mr. Speaker. The whole point about Lake Apartments is it is obviously~from reading the newspapers,such an incredibly - you have mortgages, second mortgages and promissory notes and shares being issued or not being issued, You know it is worthy of a corporate law course. MR. WELLS: If the hon. leader could yield for a moment I think and I propose to have something to say about this perhaps in the throne speech debate.

The sort of thing that allowed this to develop is section (5) of the Conveyancing Act. In my view that is something that we ought to take a look at because it seems to me that we ought not in this province,as things become more complex, apartment buildings. large mortgages etc., there ought not to be the right to go by way of the Conveyancing Act or foreclosure. The right should be limited to foreclosure in my view because it was the use of the Conveyancing Act, whether it was .1ustified or not, which led to this sort of thing happening. MR.

ROBERTS: Well, the hon. gentleman and I do not agree on a great deal but we certainly I think agree~ 488

February 19, 1973 Mr. Roberts. Tape no~ 159 Page 1 - MRW I cannot speak with detail on the Conveyancing Act4 My one acquaintance with it was a brush during the exams administered by the benches of the law society~ I came off ahead but I will not say how much ahead, enough ahead that they have admitted me to the bar. The point is and I think it is a very sound one that our law in- Newfoundland is· not sufficiently sophisticated to deal adequately with these problems because up until very recently we did not have them, Mr. Speaker.

I am not sure where the honourable gentleman and I got in our - all I was doing was closing the few words I had to say and to ask the minister, when he closes the debate,(! assume he has an administrator in mind when one drafts the bill and has it brought in and all these things) perhaps he could indicate to the House whom the administrator is to be and any other relevant terminology. Is he to be paid by the day? How is he to be paid? In the long run it will be the tenants who will pay.

There is nobody else in this with any money except the tenants and whoever collects what, when, from whom or how, it will be the tenants living in those apartments now or in the future who pay whatever the costs of this are~ There is no suggestion to my mind that it would be from the public till nor should it. We will support the bill. It is an unusual one but under the circumstances it seems to be justified. MR. SPEAKER: debate. MR. HICKEY: If the honourable minister speaks, he closes the Mr. Speaker, I can inform the Leader of the Opposition that we do have an administrator in mind.

However, there has been nothing settled in terms of a fee. I can clear the matter of as to who should pay the fee. Of course, it would be paid by the apartment people 1whoever the owner will be determined to be. I would suppose that it would be paid by the court, when the case is disposed of, as opposed to being paid by any one else or to be taken out of the monies that are collected. I feel 489

February 19, 1973 Tape no. 159 Page 2 Mr~ Hickey. that the proper way to do it would be that the bill would be presented to the court rather than the firm paying themselves. On the matter of the fee, we are presently getting what is considered to be an accepted rate from a trust company who are experienced in this kind of situation and who manage apartments and so on. I would suggest that he would follow this figure. MR. ROBERTS: Is the thought to put a trust company as administrator? MR. HICKEY: No, it was not intended that we appoint a trust company, Mr.

Speaker, for the simple reason there are a number of things that have to be done. There would have to be a fair amount of time spent initially to attend to a number of things. I felt that a large trust company would not necessarily be required. Most of those people are very busy. My main concern is that some kind of decent service is provided to people who live in that building and that a number of the real problems should be sorted out immediately. I will say that I had a small accounting firm in mind. I feel that they would do a creditable job there. I do not think it is a job for a large trust company. MR.

ROBERTS: Could the minister name the accounting firm? MR. HICKEY: No I am not in a position to name them, Mr. Speaker, because as I said the matter of fees has not been settled. Therefore, I feel that it would be improper for me to name them at this time. With regard to the involvement of the administrator, it would be as simple a matter as I have indicated when I opened the debate,that the rents would be collected, the services restored and any urgent matters of maintenance be attended to.

It is not the intention to ask the administrator to get involved in previous disputes with any of the tenants or previous disputes that the tenants might have had with either of the claimants who are before the court. It would be a simple matter of administering the affairs 490

February 19, 1973 Tape no. 159 Page 3 of this apartment building from the date of apointment up until the time the matter is sorted out by the court. There is one other point, Mr~ Speaker, that 1 want to make and that is' that the reason for the urgency of this matter; in addition to tenants paying to two different prospective landlords and some tenants not paying any one, there are other tenants who have retained lawyers, who are paying the rent to those lawyers, I would ask the administrator to collect this rent that is now being held until the disposition of the case.

There are bills, charges, accounts which are outstanding and this is what is making the situation rather difficult at the moment. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting An Administrator For Lake Apartments," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House now by leave. MR. ROBERTS You can have leave only on the condition that the honourable gentleman tell ua whom he has in mind. 1 am not saying that there is anything wrong but we do get inherently suspicious at this state.

I can understand the honourable gentleman not wishing to name an individual or firm until he has sort of consummated an arrangement with them but I might add that his administration have appointed Mr. Nutbeem and only now has Mr. Nutbeem's salary been negotiated,a fortnight later. If the bill is urgent we will consent on our part t,o committee at this stage, on the condition the minister tell us whom he proposes to name. Surely, there is nothing to hide. MR. BARRY: My information is (Interruption) MR. ROBERTS: I do not feel any need to give any explanation for my conduct to the hon. gentleman from Placentia West.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • _MR. ROBERTS: I shall anyway. 491

February 19, 1973 Tape no~ 159 Page 4 The hon. member for St. John 1 s South. MR. SPEAKER: _MR. WELLS: Mr~ Speaker, if the honourable member would be satisfied, if the minister named perhaps as a generic term, like a chartered accountant or a lawyer or somebody of this sort, not the individual's name, because obviously that would have to be cleared~ AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). _MR. WELLS: If it is a recongized chartered accountant - I mean after all, to name someone who might turn it down - _MR. ROBERTS: It la a mountain out of a molehill~ Cannot the minister go out on the telephone and

February 19, 1G73 Tape 160 PK - 1 We could come hack to this later today at cmnmtttee stage it wil 1 take ten minutes to put the bill throuP-h. The administrator presnmahly, I do not know if His Fonour is 1n town or not. The minister is not hidinr, anythinr Tam sure, wellilet him tell us. MF. HICKf]'._, Hr. Speaker, I have already indi.cated why I nm unahle to sny who the administrator is going to be or may he. I have no assurance that the gentleman or the gentlemen who Tam goini;:: to ask to act as the administrator will accept. I have been unable at this tJ;,;e to determine the fee to he paid.

Surely no one is ,lust going to say; "Indeed we will administer that apartment building. We do not care how much you will pay us, maybe pay UR five dollars. 11 Hr. Speaker) if the passage of this hill depends on my beinp. out on the spot to ~ive information or to act hastily or to act irresponsihly, that I have no intentions of doing it. Tf the honourahle gentleman on the other side wish to hold up the tenants in Lake Apartments for another day, ~,ell then that is fine by me. MR. RORERTS: Hr. Speaker, the honourahle gentleman is the one who wants haste. This hill has sat on the Order Paper since Friday.

It was not called for dehate on Friday. AH HON. MEMBER· ---~-_, ___ - Thursday. Thursday,it was on Thursday. The honourable gentleman has ohviously no desire for haste. The honourahle gentleman is the one who was in here asking us to wave the rules of this House. Well, we are prepared to wave - he is trying to hide somethinf;. Well then fine we will wait the extra twenty-four hours.if that is vhat he wishes to do, But let him not accuse us of delay. Sir. E'e stand ready on nur part to expedite this by agreeing to wave the rules.

But if he is the one who wants the haste, it was the honourable gentleman who came in and wants to put this through in one day, in all stages, Your Honour. not us. We are willing to have it go the normal course. But if he thinks it is urgent, let him do what little is necessary to make it urf;;ent. We can adjourn until 493

February 19, 1973 Tape 160 PK - 2 later this afternoon,come back at a quarter of six on this matter, put it through by six 0 1clock if it is that urgent. But let him - a shame! Ah, listen to it. Listen to it. The little fella. Right,it is petty. We are bein!! asked to wave the rules. Well what is he tryiniz to hide? This is the government, Mr. Speaker, this is the government - MR. HICKEY: To a point of order~ Mr. Speaker, I take exception to this phrase !'what am I trying to hide." The honourable gentleman has a bad mind. He drinks, sleeps and eats corruption those days.

When he looks at his farnily 1 does he think of corruption? He must, because he thinks ahout it when he looks at everybody else. I have no intentions of heing forced to make a decision which I am not able to make, I am not ready to make at this time. Does the honourable gentleman realize that I only gave notice on Thursday, that on Friday I was unable to bring this bill before this House because the honourable gentleman and a few more were discussing a matter of urgent public importance namely; the steel mill. What is he talking about? I have nothing to hide.

But I am not going to be pushed in a corner by making a decision that I am not ready to make. I will make it when I am ready, MR. SPEAKER: f1R. MARSHALL: Order! Does the honourable gentleman have leave - On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the _government heartily endorses the position taken by the hon. the Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. We will not he pushed into anything and therefore we will withdraw the request. We shall proceed in the normal course of events and we will look forward to passage of this bill at the earliest possible opportunity. }ffi.

SPF.AKER· Will this hill be referred to a committee of the whole !louse on tomorrow? Agreed. ADDRESS IN REPLY MR~ SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bonavista North. MR. P. S. THOMS: Mr. Speakert may I first before I go into detail congratulate the honourable member for Port au Port for his appointment 494

February 19, 1973 Tape 160 PK - 3 as Deputy Fipeaker of this House. It is indeed a privilege to see you sittin~ in the Chair. I feel assured that you will carry out your duties as your duties ought to be carried out. 495

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 161 NM - 1 It is a little disappointing though, Mr. Speaker, to see that the former Deputy Speaker or that the Deputy Chairman of Committees was not elevated to this post. I thought for sure that the honounable member for St. George's would be promoted to this post. I trust that does not throw any possible influence upon the member in question. I hope it does not indicated that this government fee] that he is a little imcompetent like the rest of the ministers are. MR. NEARY: He is not a member of the Bar Society. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, I was somewhat a little disappointed and I thought it should have been in order for this honourable House at its opening to at least recognize the passing of one of the greatest Canadians that we have known, of course I speak of the honourable Lester Pearson. Mr. Pearson 1 s death most definitely was a loss to all Canadians. He was an outstanding Canadian, a true Canadian, he was a national figure and indeed he was a prominent international figure. Last Friday, the fifteenth, was the eight anniversary of Canada's present flag.

I thought for sure someone on the government side of this House would indeed recognize that date and pay tribute not only to Mr. Pearson but to the fact that we do at this date possess that flag. Mr. Speaker, may I make a suggestion to you or to this House? Would this House consider bringing into this honourable House the Canadian flag? Maybe at the same time we could also bring in the Union Jack. A,~ HON. MEMBER: A good idea. MR. THOMS: Indeed, Mr. Speaker, it would be a worthwhile tribute to the former Prime Minister of Canada, Lester B. Pearson.

Now, Mr~ Speaker, the Speech from the Throne does not really call for much comment, because there is not much there to comment upon. The mover and seconder of the Speech from the 496

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 161 NM - 2 MR. THOMS: Throne did as admirable a job as they possibly could, but I was very distrubed, very disappointed, at the comments from the member for St. John's South. Mr. Speaker, his comments really disturbed me as I am sure they disturbed most Newfoundlanders.

If this honourable House will allow me, I would like to refer you to the comments which the honourable member hade made, and I read from Hansard of January 31, 1973 on page 15, last paragraph. ''In the 1960 's I believe that our greatest obstacle to progress was a fear of government, a wariness of government, a fear that to offend the government would be to impair one's chances of a job. 11 Mr.

Speaker, I wonder was he thinking about the two jobs that were lost when the Tories took over on January 18, 1972, when the honourable member's Minister of Provincial Affairs immediately fired two members, two people from this building, Mr. Cousens and Mr. Fitzgerald. Was that what the honourable member for St. John's South was thinking about, Mr. Speaker? Impair one's chances of a job," Whose jobs were impaired? The member, Mr.

Speaker, goes on to say,"would also impair a businessman 1 s bid for a contrac:L II Today we do not have any bids for contracts. 11 a labour union •s right to exist or impair the chance of an industry to grow and prosper. 0 These fears may have been in::ational and of course what he is really saying - MR. MURPHY: Ask the member for Bell Island abOut the MR. NEARY: As the minister about the case tractors. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, did something I say irritate the honourable member for St. John's Centre or did I touch a sore spot. MR. NEARY: You touched a nerve. MR. THOMS: He who shouts loudest is guilty.

It is so, and the honourable member ahouting' is evidence of that this evening. He 497

February 19, 1973 Tape No .. 161 NM - 3 HR. T!lO!{S : also goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, that these fears may have been irrational. Reall7 what he is trying to say, Mr. Speaker, is that these fears arc senseless antl unreasonable and that is the only word t~at I can possibly agree uith him on. They were senseless and unreasonable. Mr. Speaker, a little later on during the day, we also got the words of wisdom from our honourable Premier, who I am very sorry to say is not this afternoon in his seat, It is too bad because I am sure he would enjoy this. The Premier says, Mr.

Speaker. as was mentioned by the member for St. John's South; 11there is one thing that has been accomplished thia year that had never been done before and that is a feeling of democracy in our province, this Island of Newfoundland and the Mainland of Labrador 1 of freedom of speech, Of freedom of people, where they are not afraid to criticize the government, 11 Can you imagine that? 11 Where they are not afraid to criticize anything nor anybody. There is a freedom in this country, and that is something that was not here before." Amazing words, Mr.

Speaker, amazing words indeed when we think about what went on here last :t1onday in this honourable House and the press release that the Premier of this province niade, amazing words indeed. They are also more amazing when you think back only a few months ago and you find that one of the reputable citizens of our province was sitting in a chair on the eighth floor of this building and was hoisted by the police on orders from the Premier, or was it the Minister of Justice? When you think, Mr.

Speaker, that just last week a group of citizens from the Town of Bonavista, who were definitely a well-disciplined orderly group - AN HON. MEMBER: Seventy per cent females. MR. THOMS: were watched over by a contingent of police here in the lobby of Confederation Building. Is that what the Premier is talking 4!l8

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 161 NM - 4 MR. THOMS: about when he says, 11 freedom of speech,'' 1 'freedom of our people." Can we from now on, every time we get a delegation at Confederation Building, expect them to be met by a contingent of police? Are we talking about a democracy or a police state? Then, Mr. Speaker, to go back a little further - MR~ CROSBY: Back to the IWA. MR. THOMS: Let us go back to it. You will have your chance to speak and you can speak 499

Tane 162 IB-1 what you like then. Or are vou poing to sr,eak? ~fR NEARY: \\'hat about the steel nlant? Let us go back to the steel nlant. 'l,fR SPEAKER: Order~ The hon. member for Rona.vista North will refer to another honourable memher as honourable member - HTZ THOMS: Thank you, }f r. Sneaker. ~av I sav that the hon. the iunior member for Harbour Main will have hts time to speak. He will have a full ninety ninutes of it if he can find anvthing to sav in thi.~ ninetv minutes. Mr.

Sneakert when t.1e talk about democracy nf speech, democracv of our people~ freedom of our peop] e. freedom of sreech. freedom to criticize and vhen we think about the members of the Torv Party searching versonal files tn this r,rovince of onrs, when "t<·e think about the police robbing personal homes, bank ofHces and all the rest thnt went on, how can a Premter 1ustifv such words ns fref'dnm of speech ,1nd freedom of people. This word frned0m from fear, Mr. Snea¥er HON. LEO n. BARRY: ('l,flNISTER OF MINES AND ENEttr.Y)_:~ "'r. Sneaker, to a 11oint of order.

The honourah1e member 1 s reference to rohbi.np: by the police force is a reflection on civil servants or perscns who cnnnot ;mswer for themselves 1 and should not he nerm:i tted. AN HONOURABLE 'M:FMBER: Thnt is not anoint of order. MR. THOM~: I did not say robbing, I said searching. If I said robbing; I withdraw it. I meant se.archinj!. Order please. The honourable member mnv rephrase his statement if he Pi.shes. If the ·word rohbery were used, he may wish to replace it. MR. THOMS: I rephrase the question and I place in the word "search". 1-1r.

Speaker, this old nuestion of fear, being afraid of the ~overnment, afraid of the minister, being afraid of the Premier, this is just a continuing programme by the Tory P11rty of Newfoundland to try to discredtt the previous administration. There one and only aim is the previous premier. If all the members of the Tory Party in this House, Mr. Sneaker~ could even be as equal to a small finger 500

February 19, 1973 Tape 162 of the previ.ous nremier they would be indeed vorthy of their existence. TR-2 Mr. !foeaker, their fear that has been imheded in the minds of neopJe of the nrovince today is quite evident, rruite evident indeed. Hr. Speaker, it is so evident that 1 t even made one of our television corrmentaton; sav _iust a )itt1e ,,:hile ago, "it is p.:etting a little scary around here these davs. ' 1 Now, '!-'r. Speaker, when thiR turn of events comes about things are really gettinp. had~ Never in New­ foundland's history hnve our neon le been afraid of politicians, premiers. the press or :mvone else.

In Newfoundland we fear Cod and ve have no other fear. Mr.__ NEARY: What ahout the welfare officer down in Burgeo? PR_._.J]lfJMS_:< Yes, tell us about the poor little welfare officer? Mr. Speaker~ on !-londay of this week, the Premier made a state­ ment and this statement was followed un in this House of Assemblv hv a most vicious attack, and irresponsible attack, a vicious and vile attack bv the member for St. John's East. ~r. Speaker, in this countrv of ours where we are supposed to have freedom of speech and freedom of peonle,we also have ~hat is called freedom of the oress. Now, Hr.

Speaker, we have our news media and I assure you they must have n very difficult .iob, difficult indeed. The job of our news media is to report, to renort the news, to report the weather, to report anything they see fi.t to report. It is also their job to provoke a discussion if necessarv. It is also their job to amuse if necessary and at sometimes they even irritate us or annoy us hut all in all, Mr. Speaker, their discussions, their irritations, their amusements~ it is all in formation. The newspapers relay to us information that we could never possibly get in any other way. Now, Nr.

Speaker, if I as a member of 501

February 19, 1973 Tape 162 rn-3 thi.s ARsemblv polnp: to be irri.tated because of what some newspaper said or because of what some radio and television network said, well rett1Jv, i 1r. Sner1ker, I should not nuhliclv sav anvthing at all because v!here vou have different renorting,quite different no two stories are going to come out exn.ctly the same nod no matter how manv different stories come out, I am going to he able to nick out something within that 11tory that I <lo not ngree with. Now, Mr.

Snenker, the loni'.! and the short of this whole controversy hetv.•een a nortion of our news media and anv other memher of this House or anv other segment of out population is simp1v this: if vou cannot swim get out of the wnter and if vou r:.nnot take criticism get out of nolitics. Mr. Sneaker, T am iuFit n little s;i,rldened this afternoon when I see that the hon. Premier is n0t in his sent. As a matter of fact, well mavhe we should get him. It is really to bad because rerdlv, l.fr. SnenkP.r. the Premier of this Province has quite a lot to answer for, ouite a lot indeed. During the early part of last year, Hr.

Speaker, our Premier took

part in some discussions. I helieve it was in Halifax. His discussions centered around the off-shore mineral resources of the Atlantic Provinces. The Prem:i.er came back to this province and he made a state­ ment, Mr. Sneaker, to this hon. House,on Mondav, June 19 , 1972 and on nage two of that statement 1 for you. the fifth nara)Zraph 1 I would like to quote HThe second benefit :i.s the joining of the Province of Ouehec with the Atlantic Provinces in this matter and the common dicision of each of the five provinces that futher meetings should be held soon." 502

February 19, 1973 Tape 163 PK - 1 I would like to repeat this sentence. Mr. Speaker, 11 the second henefit is the joining of the Province of nuebec with the Atlantic Provinces in this matter and the common decision of each of the five provinces that further meetings should he held, soon.n Mr. Speaker. it is hard to understand how the Premier could make this statement. It is very difficult indeed. I would like to think, Mr. Spenker. that our Premier was ill-informed or misinformed or that maybe some of his ministe~or,minister or someone else had misinformed the Premier. Because, Mr.

Speaker, this statement is not true. This is not a true and factual statemenL I y1ould not say it is a lie hecause that would be unparliamentary. Recause it is not true that this is not the first time that the Province of Quebec had taken

part in these discussions. tt is not true whatsoever. Ouehec was involved in the offshore discussions ever since 1961,. Mayhe the Hinister of Econordc Development. Mr. ~peaker, i.s correct. I trust he is. AN HON. HFPBER: lnaudihle. MR. THOMS: Four years after what started? AN 1:0,!l: MEMBER: Inaudihle. MR. Tl-!9~..:., Mr. Speaker, the discussions with the Joint Mineral Resources Committee have been going on continuously since 1964. Is this not correct? Mr. Speaker, the discussions of this committee had involved the Province of Quebec way hefore 1972. Is this not correct?

And if this is correct,then the Premier's statement is wrong. AN HON. HEHBER: Inaudible. I have read it twice for you, you should have heard it. Mr. Speaker, prior to January 1972 the chairman of the 3oint Mineral Resources Committee was the hon. William Callahan of Newfoundland, Prior to him was the Minister of Resources from (1uehec, I believe his name was John Paul Allard. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, this is evidence enough to prove that Quehec was involved in these discussions before the Halifax meetinp; of last year.

I want to make this abundantly clear because it gives an indication that we were not talkinr with the Province of 503

Fehruary 19, 1973 Tnpe 163 PY - 2 nuet>P.c. We were. RARRY· The Premier was sayint, thnt there was an agreement at ti-int time to operate in a joint approach to the federal government. The Pre~ier stated,in his statement 1 the second henefit is the .ioininp; of the Province of Quehec with the Atlantic Provinces • . :P-·- nA_~Y: That is right. A commitment there, that is a lot different than the initial discussions held,tryinp. to work out something~ Witsh the orevious minister available, there was no such common approach. NR. BARRY• There was no common approach. No joint approach until that statement.

ViL Well, Mr. ;)peaker, it nppenred t'oth in the news media of this province that this was the first time thnt Quebec: had join such discussion. :~HP!· ❖ ME!·tflER· Please do not ca11 the Premier to accourt for the news ;nerl in - he has Made that qui tf'!

c) e;i r. lh1s is the statement 1 am referring to. Anyway, Hr. Speaker, I want to make it ahundantly clear that the five Atlantic provinces have heen involved in these discussions for quite some time. J may also add that consider ah le progress was l"'lade. Hr. Speaker the rliscussions previous to January 1972 several of these discussions took place in relation to drawinp_ up the boundaries between the five Eastern provinces. Hr.

Speaker, this was done and aµreed upon by 1968, HR.-_J}.05!_~_:,, nid your adr'linistration take responsibili.ty for these boundaries? ~'!.,~_JHO!<Ji:: ·~ They were Pack to 196fL fiR._J1_0,op,2~ Well did the previous administration tnke responsihility for the defin1tion of these houndaries? 1 nm asking you now. AE _fl,l)!:_,. r1n-1BER~ How much did you give away on that? HR·~ :0.£!,9DY :- Now answer the question. You can make an accusation, answer the question. ?'fR· ?£.!::'KFE..:_ Order, please! Would the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development take his seat.

February 19, 1973 Tape 163 PK - 3 MR. DOODY~ I am sorry , Your Honour. MR. THOMS: Mr~ Speaker. any minister of this crown, or this gove_rnment or anyone of this Hoose of Assembly will have their time to spea~ and they can ask questions and they can get answers at that time. They can make vhat accusations they liket but the very fact remains that these discussions were carried out before. These boundaries were drawn up and agreed upon by the five Atlantic Provinces. Hr. ~peaker, the old question of offshore mineral rights have been brought to the forefront time and time again. Mr.

Speaker, the previous administration took the nosition that in Newfoundland's claim to offshore mineral rir,hts that we claimed one hundred per cent of any"henefits that were derived from these offshore minerals. Now, Hr. Speaker, it seems unfair that we should give up any of this claim or give up any of this right or even that we should talk about the flexible, about the one hundred per cent ownership claim of the offshore mineral rights. The present government's policy apparently is somewhat watered down when you think about the policy of the previous administration. We have. Mr.

Speaker, territorial rights over all the minerals on the Continental Shelf. We have legitimate claims to these rir,hts. They are ours. We should not give up one per cent of our rights. We should stick by th1 s arr,ument and claim one hundred per cent of the rithts of all offshore minerals. Now, }tr. Speaker, some people may not think that this should he BO. Some people think that maybe, just maybe that the federal ~overnment should have some portion of our offshore mineral rights. They may say that this is the first time that we have had such a case as the offshore mineral rights in Eastern Newfoundland. But, Hr.

Speaker, it is not the first time. He have mined minerals under the North Atlantic for years. I refer of course to the Iron Mine of Bell Island:le mined iron ore three and a-half miles out under the sea bed·off Bell Island for at least seventeen years after Confederation 505

Fehurary 19. 1973 TR.pc lf• 3 PK - 4 and the federal government had no claim '1-'l:rntsoever to any of these minerals nnr did they collect any royaliti1.2s. T say the same principle that applied on Bell 1s1and also anpli.es 506

February 19, 1973, Tape 164, Pagel -- apb on the Grand Banks of both L:,,hrodor and Newfoundland, 'Mr. Speaker, while I agree that the Federal Government has certain jurisdiction, the Federal Goverrnnent' s ,iurisdiction starts at high-water nark and goes out over the floor of the ocean. The federal jurisdiction, Hr. Speaker, is all around the offshore drilling rigs and the Federal Governrnent 3[10uld control and regulate these drillin~ rir,s. But, Mr. Speaker, once that drill strikes the bottom of the ocean you are in provincial jurisdiction.

If you were not in provincial _jurisdiction on Bell Isalnd.you are not on the Grand Banks. MR. L. BARRY: Nonsense! You are in the same jurisdiction when you are on the top too if you have to be on the top to exploit the bottom. MR. THOMS: No not at all. AN HON. HEHllER: All the way down. MR. THOMS: Provincial jurisdiction starts at the ocean floor only. Above the ocean floor you have federal Jurisdiction. MR. BARRY: Why are you giving awny most of our jurisdiction to the Federal rsovernment by that statement? HR. THOMS: Government. HR. BARRY: fight .•• MR.

THOMS: I am not giving nway any jurisdiction to the Federal TI1e government cannot accept that position. We have to The North Atlantic, Hr. Speaker, is federal jurisdiction because it is international. The ocean floor on the Grand Banks is provincial jurisdiction~ MR. DOODY: There might be untold riches in the water out there. We cannot afford to give it away. MR. THOMS: Maybe the honourable member, Mr. Speaker, will tell us about all these untold riches. But, Mr. Speaker, on the bottom of the North Atlantic, particularly on the continental shelf, once you strike 5 0 '7

February 19, 1973, Tape 164, Page 2 -- apb the bottom you are in provincial jurisdiction. You do not enter provincial jurisdiction until you strike that bottom. The moving sea is federal jurisdiction. }fr. Speaker, this is one thing that our Provincial Government should keep in mind~ when they are negotiating, if they are negotiating with the Federal Government. Are, you saying: that we need the Federal r::overnment 's nermission to go out and get it? rm. THOHS: The Ferieral Government can have permission to go out ~------ put whatever they like on the surface of the water. HR.

DOODY: Do we need the Federal Government's penrdssion to P.O out and put what we want on the surface? "'tR • TilOlfS • You are within the Federal r,overnment's jurisdiction when you are on the sea 1 rnost definitely. }lR_._B_AR_Rc=Y.c.: -- That is with respect to sh:i.ppinv and navigation. }!JL TllOHS : MR. BARRY: MR. TFOMS: ______ , With shipping, oil transportatlon and the rest. But not with respect to exploitation ... Not with respect to the drilling, but once that mineral comes above, into the ocean,you are in federal iurisdiction. }fr.

Speaki;or, hP-frire January 1 q72, we heard that the ''Tory Party· if electcd,were goinf!: to draw up all different kinds of regulations to reµ_ulate the offshore drillinr, to rerulate the offshore exnloitat-f.on. But, Hr. Speaker~ at the present time there is no f!Overrnnent in the world that have more rigid rei:;ulations than the Federal rovernment of Cnnnda. They have the best rules and regulations for offshore drillinp: thatare possible. MR. THOMS: ?-1r. Speaker. this is why the present administration has seen fit not to draw up any rep;ulations. l·rR. OTTENHEIVER: Why hnve the Federal Government ..• NR.

THm~s: Put it on the Order Paper, that is what I was told this 508

February 19, 1973, Tape 164, Page 3 -- apb afternoon. MR. NEARY: Well done. MR. THO}'!S: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few comments on our forestry. To date, we in Newfoundland do not have a proper forest management programme. We,to date,have no control of one of our greatest natural resources, the forests, We,to date, ar¥ going about harvesting our forests in a haphazard condition. We are in fact, in most instances,crucifying our forests. !-1r.

Speaker. before the present administration took office, there was planning underway to control the harvesting of our forests, to have a proper systematic system to harvest the wealth of our forests. It was cast aside because of a political fluke, that happened la.st year~ Hr. Speaker, there was an agreement with the linerboard mill, Bowaters and Price Brothers and with the loggers of our nrovince to throw all the forest assets which we have, that is all the forest­ lands, to throw everythin~ into one pool. Mr.

Speaker, with this pool each of the parties would get together with the Provincial Crown Corporation and each wnuld say to the corporation; "Look, I want 500 cords of wood this year. i- Bowaters would ask for so many, Price would ask for so many, the linerhoard mill would ask for so many, different sawmills would ask for so many more feet of wood. Mr. Speal,er, under this proposed co-operation the corporation would tell the various interests where to cut and how much they were to cut. Only under such a system, Hr. Speaker, can we control the forest products of our province.

This of course would take a great responsibility off the two large paper industries in our province. Of course, this would mean increased stumpage. An agreement by these people for other royalties or taxes as you may call them and the monies collected from these different royalties or taxes or stumpage would he spent back into the 509

February 19, 1973, Tape 164, Page 4 -- apb forestry itself. Every cent taken out would be put back in. Mr. Speaker, it would go in for access roads, forest improvements. thinning and reforestation and many other things. Only under this system~ Mr. Speaker, are we going to be able to properly manage.control and harvest our forests. It is too bad, Mr. Speaker, that this proposed co-operation was another casualty of our political fluke. Mr. Speaker, leaving the forestry but staying within the forest, I am almost compelled to say a few words on the Gros }iorne National Park. 'Mr.

Speaker, this park hns been kicked around from daylight to dark. Nothinp: really substantial has happened to the park this past fourteen or fifteen months. One of the main excuses that hnve heen hrought forward for not rassinr over lands to the f-ederal Government, is that the present povernment just do not lr,now where the different lands are~ That is, they do not know where Bowater 1 s leases are, where Price lenses are or private lands. ?-fr.

Speaker. if they would only take the time to po doi.:n to the basement of this buildinr., they would find rnnns that are there indicating the boundary of the park and indicat:inp the various leases and tirr:ber leases within the park boundary. From such a plan, Mr. Speaker, within a matter of days you could pass over the necessary lands to the Federal Government for this park. It is interesting to note, Mr. Speaker I that much work hnd been done on this. even devm to the square miles of land that are within the park boundary. Mr.

Speal·er, within the park boundary there l're seventy-six square miles of Bowater's timber leases, thirty-eight square miles of Reid lots, 7.5 souare miles of mineral grants. There are 290 acres of surface grants and leases. This is roughly, }{r. Speaker, 120 snuare miles. MR. NEARY: 1'R. THO!<S, Are you charging the minister for this information? No, I did not charge anyone for this information. Mr. Spea~er, I note that the park itself is approximately 510

February 19, 1973, Tape 164, Page 5 -- apb 700 square miles. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, it is very easy~ very simple and cnn be done within a matter of a few 9ays, to pass over whatever land is necessary to be passed over so, that this Gros !'1orne National Park can become a reality. Mr. Speaker, this park has been going on or trying to go on for some time. To date we have only ei!!hteen people employed on the park, when we should have around two hundred. Last year, !-A'r~ Speaker, the total payroll for that park should have been ahout $2 million but it was practically nil. This, Fr.

Speaker, is a gross neglect on the: part of the present administration. This has certainly retarded the growth of this park and certainly influenced drastically the economic conditions of the West Coast Area. Hr. Speaker, we have heard Ministers of the Crown speak of delays, more delays and more problems, but still they have not yet come up with a proper procedure to ,!et this park started. 511

February 19, 1973 Tape 165 JM - 1 I believe it is about time for the present administration to get off their big fat fannies and do something about it. Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to note that there was a report done on the Gros Marne, the benefits, its potential, its cost and its impact upon the economy of the area.It was to give an evaluation of the benefits and costs of the proposed park and this, Mr. Speaker, was supposed to have been done by Hildebrand, Younp, Associates, if I have the name correct. As far as I am aware~ Mr.

Speaker, this report has been submitted but this report has not yet to date been made public. Mr. Speaker, in the estimates which were brought forward last June in this House there was an allotment in there of $200,000 for the improvement of blueberry lands in the Province of Newfoundland, $200,000. It is going to be very interestin~~ Mr. Speaker, when the estimates come about to find out where this $200,000 was spent. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. THOMS: Maybe they all went alon~ with the restructuring programme. Mr.

Speaker, my Disttict of Bonavista North is one of the greatest producers of blueberries in Eastern Canada and I mean Eastern Canada. In Newfoundland last year over fifty per cent of the blueberry production was produced in the District of Bonavista North and that the hon. minister cannot deny. Now, Mr. Speaker, the blueberry industry is a base industry. It is where the base dollars come from. There is no service industry attached to it whatsoever.

It is all base money and of the two million one hundred thousand pounds that were produced in Newfoundland last year exactly one million fifty thousand pounds were produced in the District of Bonavista North. Mr. Speaker, this House allotted $200,000 to be spent on the blueberry industry of Newfoundland and to date to my knowledge I can only find where there was $2,000 spent in the District of Bonavista North. Now, Mr. Speaker, where the 512

February 19. 1973 Tape 165 other $198,000 was spent is going to be a very interesting answer. A.'l HON. MEMBER: Harbour Main. MR. THOMS: I would not doubt that. I would not doubt that a bit. AN HON. MEMBER: I will not do any good. The hon. member will not pay his nomination fees the next time. JM - 2 MR. THOMS: But, Mr. Speaker, I can only say that this is a total neglect of a viable .industry by the present administration. Ohe would almost think that they would like to see it go the way the STELCC plant went. Mr. Speaker, the blueberry industcy in this province is barely touched.

We have only scratched the surface and unless this government comes up with a good,sound policy of aiding the industry, of updating the industry 1 then I am afraid the industry will be like the others we have in this province, it is about to die. Mr. Speaker~ I feel I should at this time .iust touch on for a brief moment that fabulous and atrocious effort that this government made as far as restructuring. Of course, when I think of restructuring I think of what one of the college students told me the other day.

He said, 11 Sure I could have done as good as that on a long weekend plus or minus a couple of days." Mr. Speaker, the restructuring of this government is really an outstanding work of art. This present government,apparently they have been quoted as saying that it took months to restructure. months to plan, months of research. Do you know, Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge, to my knowledge,to date we do not have a deputy minister of Forestry and Agriculture and possibly we do not have an assistant deputy yet. MR. NEARY: Another Tory hang-around get a job 1 maybe. MR.

THOMS: It is goin~ to be interesting to find out who they are. Mr. Speaker, we had as the Deputy Minister of Agriculture one of the most able men in this province as far as agriculture was concerned, one of the most knowledgeable and most able and I am sure the former 513

February 19, 1973 Tn.pe 165 Dcputv Minister of ~incs and Agriculture will agree with me,an<l that is in the person of Mr. Gerry O'Rei11v. Hr. O'Reilly's knowledge of agriculture in this province is second to none and,Mr. Speaker. I am afraid that he was again a causalitv of the restructuring pror,rarnme, not only re, Pr. Speaker, but pnrt of that department. The previottR department 1,,1as made up of mines. agricu.1 ture :md resources and, Mr. Speaker. within our resources 'Wf..' have the wildlife of our province. Now, Mr.

S~eaker, I fail to see how you can separate the wildlife of this province from the forest of the province. HR. NEARY: If anybody can separate the wildlife,it is that crowd over there. They know all about wildlife. J),I - 3 ~~-T.BPMS: Mr. Speaker, in my opinion it is lunacy to separate wildlife and our forestry. Just imagine, Mr. Speaker. what department we put it under, tourism, What are we going to do? Give it to the Tourist Minister,.so he can give it to the tourists? That is his only reason for ex:istin~, to please the tourists who come into our province. Mr. Speaker.

I see a great danger here. 1 see a danger that the Minister of Tourism will undoubtedly lean towards the tourists who enter our province and that we will in some way, shape or form increase the volume of license~ the big game licenses that ~o to the tourists who enter our province and believe you me the percentage of license:, that go to the tourists now,in my opinion, is too ~reat and I am sure the previous Minister of Hines, Agric~lture and Resources must ,agree with me.

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 166 NM - 1 MR. THOMS: While I agree, Mr. Speaker, that a certain percentage of these licences should go to the tourists, Yet I disagree with the present percentage.

I believe it should be cut and cut drastically because even though some reports coming out of the wild life division seem to indicate that our game population, our moose and caribou population are holding their own, there are ever- visible signs to indicate the contrary jl< Vfo:ile 1 do not blame this necessarily on the previous minister or even the present minister, I believe he should take a very close look at the present population of big game in this province. It is certainly disappearing from the roads of our province. It is certainly disappearing from the wild accesses of our province.

This is quite evident, quite evident to anyone who might travel the barrens or our forests. Therefore I say, Mr. Speaker, that this indeed is a bad move to place our wild life under the Tourist Department. There is a very great danger there indeed. There is a great danger, Mr. Speaker, and even in Labrador last year, they opened the season, I am not quite sure but I believe it was August 23, Just so that they could accommodate people coming in, just so that they could accommodate the tourists, who did not want to suffer a little bit of cold in September and October and so it was opened in August.

This, 1 am afraid, is a very poor policy indeed. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this should indeed be corrected. Mr. Speaker, within my district we poasess thirty-three beautiful settlements. Not all of these settlements, Mr. Speaker, are what you call water and sewerized. AN HON. MEMBER: Infrastructure* MR. THOMS: No, they are not completely. You would not yet consider t~em completely part of our infrastructure, because there has been no infrastructure put in them. We need, Mr. Speaker, a vast programme of water and sewexs. We need a vast programme of highways. Hr. Speaker, 515

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 166 NM - 2 it is disheartening to henr,only a couple of weeks ago. the Premier of this Province say that very little attention would he be paying or his administration be paying to such programmes as water and sewer and highways. The basic need in Newfoundland today, Mr. Speaker, is still water and sewers and a good highway system. Unless our provincial government is willing to undertake a v~st programme of water and sewer, and highways, then life in Newfoundland will not rise to where it should. Hr.

Speaker, before the present government became - was elevated to power. the present Premier was going around this province promising many thinm:;. One of thP things. Hr. Speaker, that he promised was free transportation on the ferries within our province. !"!r. Speaker, this promise was made on Hell Island. I would like to read you one of the portions of his talk, he said, 11 all ferries operating within the province will offer free transportation if the Progressive Conservative Party forms the government after October 28, 11 This, Mr. Speaker, was made bv the Leader of the Tory Party, at that time Mr.

Frank Hoores. Now it ls some fourteen months since the Tory Party took office in this province and to date since they took office, we have not heard anything of ferry service in Newfoundland. We only witnessed the continued acceleration in fares on these services, continually climbing. Mr. Speaker, the cost of this is borne possibly by the lowest income people of our province, MR. NEARY: No income on Bell Island. MR. THOMS: If the present Premier had any interest at all in his heart for the people of Newfoundland, he would immediately try to overcome this difficulty which is beset upon our people.

The price paid on this ferry service is somewhat outrageous, Subsidies are necessary not only from the provincial government but also from the federal government.

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 166 NM - 3 MR~ THOMS: Mr. Speaker, promises were many before January 18, but the fulfillments; of these promises have been very few since January 18. This winter we witnessed one of the greates ice blockades in our history. Never before have the smaller islanas around our province been isolated by ice as they have been this year, never have they been isolated for such a long period of time. Mr. Speaker, the only transportation to these islands is by plane.

This is possibly the most expensive form of transportation~ I believe sincerely in my heart that this form of transportation should be heavily subsidized by either the provincial or federal government. I wrote a letter on June 14, 1972 to the honourable Ank Murphy, Minister of Provincial Affairs, June 14, 1972,requesting that the fares between the Island of St, Brendan's in Ronavista Bay and the mainland be subsidized. Hr. Speaker~ it was only a simple request. It would not cost the provincial government very much but Mr. Speaker, To date that letter has not been answered. MR. NEARY: What? MR.

THOMS: It has not been answered. MR~ NEARY: t:rot answered. ~IOMS: That is the arrogance of this present administration. MR,. NEARY: Resign. The minister should resign. MR. THOMS: That, Mr~ Speaker, is the thinking of this administration as far as the poor people of our province are concerned. AN HON. MEMBER: We have to bring in government to the people. MR. THOMS: If it were a request from some of the larger centres theY would have been on their hands and knees. But because there are a few little people out on St. Brendan's Island, what does he say about them? Nothing, he could not care less. 51 '7

February 19, 1973 Tape No, 166 m-1 - 4 HR. MURPHY: They should be looked after 1if we had the way to do it. HR. NEA..~Y: Why did you not reply to the letter? MR. THOMS: It is really immaterial whether they are LihcrnJ or Tories, they are still Newfoundlanders and better than some people ! know. HR. MURPHY: Why did you direct your letter to the Minister of Provincial Affairs? MR. THOMS: Because it is a provincial matter. MR. MURPHY: It is a provincial matter. MR. THOMS: Whom else was I going to address the letter to? 518

February 19, 1973 Tape 16 7 PK - l MR. THOMS~ Xo, no, no. Here is the promise,the Tories are going to take care of the ferry service in Hewfoundland. The two of them go together. Mr. Speaker, this is just another example of the arrogance of the history of the present adminiatrntion. h-1iat do they care ah0ut the people of Newfoundland? They could not care less. Mr. Speaker - AN HON. HEJ:!~.~ This is arrogance for you. MR. THOMS: You know, Hr.

Speaker, if the honourahle Minister of Provind.al Affairs at the time would have even answered the letter or even if he were t..o give me an answer after the restructuring progrnmme and said. "welJ. we do not have any money. If he had done it befo-Pe the restructuring prop.ramme and told me what the restructuring programme contained,! could have showed him were he could have ~otten enou!!h money to subsidize the St. Brendan's fare, Little Bay Island fa.re and the Fogo fare. NR. !:IF..ARY: And not forgetting Bell Island, MR. THOHS: And not forgetting Iiell Island. Mr.

Speaker, during the restructuring fiasco the present administration saw fit,in their grent wJsdom, I do not know how they came up with this idea, but they saw fit to retire at least four civil servants hefore the proper retired a?.e had come about. These four civil servants 1 undoubtly, Hr. Sneaker. were good men. I do not question that whatsoever. But I cannnt for the life of me see what was the reasoning behind the present administration to retire these four gentlemen. One of these gentlemen. Mr.

Speaker. will cost this government, the taxpayers of this province,in the next four years $19,R2Q per year, which is a total in the next four years of S79,316. The next gentleman, f,fr. Speaker, in the next two yea.rs will cost the. taxpayers of this province $35,640. The third gentleman, ~r. Speaker, will cost this province in the next four yen.rs $82, 424. The fourth and last gentleman, Hr. Speaker, will cost the taxpayers of this province and St. Rrendan 1 s $173,205, hringing a grand total for the four gentlemen, Mr. Speaker. to $370,585. Now, Mr. Speaker, 5LJ

Fehn1ary 10, 1071 Tape 167 PK - Z HR. Hl'RPIIY· Hould the honourable memhr,r permit - ~1R. TPOH~:_ No. You are p.oing to hnve your afternoon to speak and you can speuY all you like then. At-; HON. Hft!flER 0 Sit down. ~,fR. ~PF.AP.:FR _:_ Order! NR ._ HURPHY: :\hsolute d1 stort1on of facts. AN_ l!ON. ~1EMBFR: P rrogance. ~~Fi:. -~'Y.R.:PPY: Get it right in Hansard. Someone will read that some day. HR. TilO!'IS • !>fr. Speaker, this is not a distortion of facts y1hatsoever. This is factual. YR. I·'ll'RPJIT:.

No not at all. r_r~ fEY!-Jf'R"L Order. plense: The honourahle gentlerr:an for eonavista North does have the r:fr,ht to he heard in silence. J11F. TPff.,1S· Thank you, Hr. Speal:er. T trust the honourahle member for St. John 1 s Centre will recofnize that. Fow, "fr. Speaker. the air suhddlt:!S to these small islands. I am sure Hould he a trivial amount. nut very much to give these peop.le a proper connection with thP. mainland portion of our ii::land. !>fr. Speaker, hecnuse of the isolation this year every resident in f,t.

Brendan 1 s had to pay seven cents more on everyth:i.np: that they hour.ht in the stores, because seven cents was the nrnount that was charged for air freirht from Pinrnt Side to St. Brendan's 1 seven cents pe.r pound. Fverythinp. that was a pound. thf>y ha.rl to pny seven cents more on it. Hr. Speaker. this in somethings could c:ome up to an increase of somethint like thircy-five or forty per cent in thP cost of 1-ivinp; on St. Rrendan 1 s. Now this Jam sure the previous honourahlP rn:1.ni.ster v111 agree td th me Ls a serious matter hecause in this day and age. Mr.

Speaker. it is not lH:e it was in thP old days. they do not store up enou~h in the fall to last all winter, they live from ·peek to week and they hnve to he resupplied every week. When this ice hlockade came about :i 2 0

February 19, 1973 Tape 16 7 PK - 3 the only way to supply the island was through atrcraft. This indeed was a very 1 very costly thing. i-;ow, ~.fr. Speaker, I an not goinr to go on too much longer because the honourable members on the government side of thts House are really getting a little jittery. I would hate to disturb too many of them because sorac ofi them, Hr. Speaker, have not had their nap yet this afternnon. I wm1ld like tn see the honourahle mcwbe::r mnke a speech as good .a,:; that. AN HDN. Mfilmrm: Oh, oh; We uill vait. We will see. ?',IR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker HR.

NEARY: h'e have not heard him speak yet in the House. Th:is whole administration., 'Hr. Speaker. before it was elected was going to he the godsend to the people of Newfoundland. They were vo:fnp: to turn the province around overnight. There was going to he milk and honey all over the place, Johs here, jobs there~ wages here, vages somewhere else. lot of jobs at STET.CO. AN HON. HEMBFR: f:heapn· beer. t--m. THOHS: Cheaper heer. Everything was going_ to be a beautiful thing, Mr. Speaker. But. ~1r. Speaker, AN FON. MF'.HBFR: Inaudible. Order! im. TI!OHS ! nut, Hr. Speaker, AN ,_!_:ON. MEFBER: Innud:ihle. MR.

NEARY: What ahout the supervisor over in Boy De Verde? MR. SPEAKFR: Order. please! ifould the honournble memhers on hoth sides refrain from butting in while the honourable member is speaking or I will have to take further action. Thank you, 1,!r. Speaker. If it were not for the Speaker of this House we would not get a word in edgeways here. 521

Februnry 19, 1973 Tape 167 PK - 4 Mr. Spenker. we heard this Tory Party for years hnw they criticized the previous administration for nnt huilrling roads, for not doinp thi!l and that, for not doinp this aml thnt. Then_ ~fr. :::penker, all of a sudden they pot in pnwer anrl thin~s were different. 11r. f:rieakcr. T do m1t knov to this day but there are some ninisters you cannot even pet a hold off hy phone. ?--!any of them do not even answer their mail. If you phone up they nre in conference or they nre at a meeting, you cannot even speak to them. None of our community councils can get a hold ol the-,.

Tt is a F.hnm, Hr. Speaker. IRa;?ine heinr; electerl to govern, by the people, nnd th("' not p:nverninr at all_. 1-iopi.ng thnt the problems of today "'ill disappear! Apparentlv this is the philosophy of th':' minister. Tnnu<lihle. !-lR •. ~Tl-10_2:C::_ Whv. Mr. ~peak er. when our people of Newfoundland have advanced projects for this government to do, when they have come up with ideas to he hrought forward and to ~e implenented, the only thing that they hear is excuses, more excuses arid more excuses.

They say; 11 Well. we canm do that bec:mse of the previous nrlministration.'' They say that the previous administration put this province in the hole. They horrnwerl tno much money. They say, we cannot do that water anrl sewernre pro,iect, we have not got the money. tfhnt T would like to knm•, ?fr. Speaker, is what happened to the ?1RH mi] lion that the ttinir;ter of Finance has borrowed tlds last thirteen monthM, lthat hns happened to it? 1 nm sure George !-'cLean did not take it all. He r:ot a p.:ood slice of it. »~!191.'~ Mr. Speaker. this is ridiculous.

There are monies in this province for everything else but for the thinv,s that our people would like to see come ahout. Now, Hr. ~pealrer, the fishermen of this province have been a sorry lot for a long, long time. They have tried to earn a lfving hy the sweat

February 19, 1973 tape 167 PK - 5 of their brow and by the courage of their hearts. They have challenged the North Atlantic to send towards them whatever it could possibly and they have accepted that challenge and met that challenge quite well. Mr. Speaker, in the Throne Speech debate of 1972 we heard that there was going to be a bip: fisheries pror,ramme. We really did not learn how big it was 523

February 19, 1973 Tape no4 168 Page l - MRW Mr. Thoms. before we got the Throne Speech of this year, when someone came up with the figure of $40 million for a big dragger programme. Now. Mr~ Speaker, it might be all very well to place upon the banks of Labrador and Newfoundland some moderni~cd draggers. It might be all very well. Mr. Speaker, the backbone and the guts of the Newfoundland fishery is in our inshore fishery. It is the men who go out in the small boats, day in and day out, who are the real backbone of the Newfoundland fishery. Mr.

Speaker, unless we pay more attention to our inshore fishery, I am afraid that we will have no fishery at all. Let me give the hon. Premier (I am sorrv to see that he is not in his seat this afternoon) a very good, constructive suggestion. Take $20 million of the $40 million and buy modern draggers with it. Take the other $20 million and buy some ice-making machines and make sure you toss three of them down in Bonavista North. Take part of that $20 million and provide more slipways.

All over the coast of our island today, we have long liners frozen in the ice because our fishermen do not have the adequate facilities to take these boats out of the water. Let us install some big depots for our inshore fishermen, not these huge, great cadillac type depots but very highly sophisticated but small and modern depots, small units that can service a couple of hundred fishermen or more. When you do that, make sure you drop two of them in Bonavista North. Mr. Speaker, another aspect of our inshore fishery which we have yet to embark upon and that is fish farming.

All over the world today people are fish farming. They are doing it in Japan. They are doing a magnificient job in Mauritius • Why cannot we do it here in Newfoundland? We have some of the nicest inlets that you could possibly imagine in this world. We do not have to spend a yen on construction to

February 19, 1973 Tape no. 168 Page 2 Mr~ Thoms create these because they are there~ All we have to do is properly use them, properly manage them and properly farm the fish from them. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, this indeed could give a big boost to our inshore fishery. Now, Mr. Speaker, as far as the fishery on the Grand Banks is concerned, I agree with putting draggers out there. We should be grabbing a certain percentage of the harvest of the Grand Banks. We most certainly do. I would certainly agree with this present government spending money to build these draggers. But remember, this, Mr.

Speaker, the only benefits that will come from these draggers are a few fishermen who will operate them, but the greatest benefit will come to the fish merchants of this province, unless, Mr. Speaker, there is some system of rental put on these draggers so that a return from the fish merchants, the fish plants or whoever else the fish is caught for - unless there is some adequate return to the province otherwise really it is only giving someone else the fast buck. Now, Mr. Speaker, our government have been encouraging the experimental,experimenting and seining of caplin on the Grand Banks. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I agree with taking the caplin on the Grand Banks, because if we do not take them, the international countries will. Now, Mr. Speaker, the caplin on the Grand Banks represent the link in a long chain, from the plankton upon to the whales, they represent one chain. Mr. Speaker, the plankton is the smallest thing in the ocean. Of course, the whale is the largest. AN HON. MEMBER: Is the whale the largest? MR. THOMS: Yes, to my knowlege, the whale is the largest thing in the North Atlantic, that is unless George McLean learned how to swim this past couple of days or so. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the caplin are the food for the other fish

February 19, 1973 Tape no. 168 Page 3 above it in this long chain. Mr~ Speaker, if we collect up all the caplin on the Grand Banks~ we are going to break that chain. Once that chain is broken, it is going to be difficult to replace it. It is going to take tens of years to replace it. If we break down this one link of that chain, we also automatically break down the other links. Afl HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. THOMS: No, we cannot get the caplin and the cod offal, unless - well we just take so many caplin. AN HON. MEMBER: Can we have the -whales? MR.

THOMS: Yes, we can have the whale, Most definitely we can have them, but we cannot take every whale. This would be very foolish~if that is what the honourable gentleman is insinuating. We must control our harvest, put a tonnage on all the harvest of the sea so that we can have all species of fish. We should not and we dare not destroy any one harvest. AN HON. MEMBER: in· have to get the co-operation of the other countries. _MR. THOMS: Naturally, we must get the co-operation and international co-operation. Of course, I believe most definitely that it is very important.

We really cannot have any co-operation at all unless we have the good will of the good people of the United States. These are the people to whom we sell our fish. This is our major markeL As a matter of fact, without that market our industry in Newfoundland would virtually collapse over­ night. This is one of the reasons why I disagree with the Premier when he says that we should have further processing. We cannot have further processing. We must sell in blocks, because the States will not accept further processing. MR. SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that he has approximately five minutes left. 526

February 19, 1973 Tape no. 168 Page 4 MR THOMS, What, Mr. Speaker, only five minutt;.a left; I have just begun. Mr. Speaker, I trust that any negotiations which the provincial department of fisheries will be carrying on with the federal government, would bear this in mind. Now, Mr$ Speaker, as I was saying before, this present administration seems to be giving a reason why they cannot do anything in Newfoundland this past fourteen months and it is because of 527

Vehruary 19. 1973 Tane 169 rn-1 the terrihle mess thev found themselves in and becau~e nf the actions of the previnus ndmin'istration. ''r. Speaker, th'is indee<l :ts ;i verv weak nnd a sick excuse. This is vnverning by excuses, Xr. Speaker, in Hctoher, 1971 and Mnrch, 1972 we witnessed in ~iewfoundland two ma_ior political flukes ;md Hr. Speaker, the peonle nf Newfoundland are ?ninp to hnve to suffer for the next three or four vears because of these nolitical flukes. ~r. Speaker, I never witnesset1 in all my 1 i fc such a hunch cf misfits, such an arrogant nick of Tory misfits.

I never witnessed such a clique r,f Torv misfits but,'.'<fr, Sneaker, l ask vou when. oh when are thev goi.ng to i:;tart i,overning? ""iP. C. BRETT: Hr. Sneaker, first thin!! that I have tn <ln is to concur wtth the hon. member for Rell Island. I certainlv coulcl nnt hone to talk thnt lon!l, for as long as the hnn. mem"rer from Bonavista North, and not sav anvthinr-.. Vin,t of rill, "lr, ;:;pec1ker, I would like to welcome to the House the hon. memher for Labrador South. I might say, Sir, that I have a great deal of re.c;pect for his predecessor or the former member for that district.

I still feel that the constituents of that area will he well represented hv the new memher even though he is sittinf? on the opposite side of the House. Pr. Speaker, I think it would be in order also to congratulate mv hon. friend and colleague, the member for Port au Port, on his appointment to the nosition of Deputy Speaker of the House. As usual. Mr. Speaker, I think our Premier has made a very wise choice. Sir, hefore commenting on the Throne Speech, I would like to make some reference to some rernn.rks made by the hon. member for Bell Tslnnd on February,12 HR. NEARY!

Tell us about the supervisor over in Heart's Content. MR. C. BRETT: No, I will not, Si.r. You talk to the minister concerned. 1 would first of al 1, Sir, like for the memhers of this House to understand that I hnve no desire to keep this particular incident to 528

February 19, 1973 Tape 169 IB-2 which I arn going to relate alive or to start any undesirable dialogue with the hon. memher. However, iust to set the record straight and to inform my constituents of the real facts, I would like to elaborate for a few moments. 1 felt a little while ago that maybe I would not be able to say this be.cause as I looked in the galleries I saw the hon~ member, well I do not know if he is honourable or not any longer, but at least he is still a gentleman, I saw the gentleman to which I am going: to refer and I had sort of second thoughts,hut I notice that he has gone. First of all, f-'r.

Sueaker, the position of the parliamentary assistant which was talked about by the hon. memher for Bell Island and some of the newsnapers, this iob was created hy the former administration for the memf'er for W1lite Bav North, at least the now memher for White Rav North and the Leader of the Opposition was the first ~onourable gentleman to hold that nosition. The second hon. gentleman was Captain Uriah Strickland, my Liberal predecessor, Now, 1 would like to reiterate here that I have the utmost respect for this gentleman anrl this is no reflection on him in any v-•av. However 1 Mr.

Strickland was the member for Trinity North for which he received his constituencv pay of $10,0(0, the same as I receive 1md other members in the House. His salarv for parliamentary assistant. I think, was $6,000. He was also apnointed to the fire commission, the salary and again I stand to be HON. MEMBER: No, No. corrected, I think it was $6,000. 'MR. C. BRETT: It was not? HON. NEHBER: You better check it again. That is not right. MR. C. BRETT: Well.all right., it was a salarv • .!:!911· MEMBFR: He was never in the fire commission. MR. C.

BRETT: All right a member of the Bell Island Transportation Commission. 529

February 19, 1973 Tane 169 rn-3 MR. NEARY: Well that is about enough. Tbe government sut-sidized. All ri~ht, the government suf'sidi.zed, MR. NEARY: The federal government subsidized - Mr. C. B~ETT: Public is right. All in all I would assume that this gentleman 1 s salary was cnnsiderrl~1v higher than mine is at the moment. AN HON. MEMBER: It could still be more. ":.R. C BRETTj He was. That is vour opinion, Sir. However, Hr. Speaker it armears that what is sauce for the r;onse is not Rattee for the gander. No, there is no gander.

Tf T coulO sav, Sir, T entered nublic life to mnkc n contribution to mv province. 1 v,1s nsketl to ;iccept the riosit1on of parliamentary assistant and by accepting the position I hope that I can make some contribution. Jf I Aatate it was a marvelous :intention. Dkev, vnu <lo not have to listen to me, Sir. !_!ON_~_ "1E"11_1~_R}_ On grounds nf good taste I nerfer not to. }<fR._C. __ RRE'IT: '-Ir. Sneaker, mv first comments on the Throne Snee.ch are to praisP mv p:overnment and the restructuring nrogramme.

And I do not have a kev in mv flnC'k, The opnositi.onts criti.cism to the oroRramme was expected but ;is ustml it t..1as nnvthin~ but constructive criti.cism. 1/y r,overnment, Hr. SnPnker, sees the nitfnlls in progn1mmes instituted in a hasty fashion which nerhans solvp nresent nrohlems hut do not necessarilv .allow any consideration for future renercussions.

The establishment of olanning task force subcommittees will do so much to alleviate the sour of the moment decisions and will allow for constructive and well planned nrogramnes that w.1.11 he greatlv concernerl with the future therehy giv1np, our orovince a sound base of operation. vr, Speaker, the effectiveness of rironer plannin;,? hv the r,overnrnent can onlv result in long term benefits for the peonle. Mr~ Speaker, in spite of the continuous crv of the onnosition. that this government has not done anvthin~ in the vast year. I would like to 530

February 19. 1973 Tnne 169 rn-4 commend our Pre.nd Pr and the cabinet, or his cahinet on one of the hest ye.;n•s this nrov:ince has ever seen. I sneak in general terms, Sir but T am thinking sriecificallv of my district. 1 can sny, Nr. Sneaker, that durin~ the :ras t vear anyone who w;,nted a ,ioh in Trinitv North could get one :md the future looks even better. There was more road construction. Hr. Sneaker, and paving dnne in Trinity North last yenr th.an in any previous vear, other of course. than election vears when the onposi.tion vns in power. Mr.

Sreakcr, mv whole district is prosperinr,.anrl whnt it. more important, Sir, nnd I would like to stress very strongly to this House is that the neon!e foel free once agaiu, free to criticize or praise the novernment ns n whole or nnv individual member thev represent. If you like, Sir, there ls a riifferent atmosphere. 1'-1r. Spe;:ker, I commend our r-_overnment for bringing this freedom to the people. ~lr. Sriealrer, I am pleased that our government has tnken a common sense apnronch tn our human resources.

The thought that our human resources w-111 be: developed wlselv and for the m,rx:imum henefit of our nnwince makes one realize that our p:overnment is concerned for the welfare of its people. The possihle discovery of oil on our Continental Shelf will brinf': untold and undreamed of benefits to our peonle. Already the nossih1Htv of a commercial find of oil and gas has created negotiations for a new company in Clarenville that may do pipe fabri.catin!! for a \fain1and f:irm. Sir, should these negotiations prove successful this comnanv would hire more thnn twenty peonle.

In connection with the possible d"iscnverv of oil and p:as, I am very nleased to see that our p,ovemment is taking steps to ensure that the very i.rnnortant fishing industry is not impaired~ Also, that a satisfactorv solution is heinr. sought vith the federal government. the Province of Quebec and the Atlantic Provtnces, Nova Scotln. New 'Brunswick, P.E.I. with regard to the ownershi.n of minernl right~, 531

February 19, 1973 Tape 170 JH - 1 this asset to our province. I am encouraged. Sir. bv mv government's decision not to move hastily on the proiect and T am further encouraged hy my ~overnment's approach which ensures that our province will derive maximum benefit based on terms most favourable to Newfoundland. This kind of thinking. Mr. Speaker. will prorluce the best results for our province.

This is but one example, ~ir, of the ~overnment's approach to the development of our province's natural resources, for only through lon~-term planning now can we develop our natural resources for the future in the best possible way. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR~ BRETT: We have to plan for the future, do we not? Mr. Speaker, I welcome our government's foresight in setting up a task force to formulate plans for better utilization of our forest. Somebody condemned this here a little while ago. It is a little disturbing.

Sir, to any true Newfoundlander, to see millions of board feet of lumber imported into this province annually while we have the raw materials rotting on the ground. This brings home true to me, maybe more so than some because many people in my district make their living in the sawmilling; and lo,z:p,inr, industry. I believe, Sir, that you will find many people in my district say that for the first time in their lives they have a government that is concerned with their future.

Our greatly expanded forest access road programme will prove very beneficial to several areas of my district and I am sure, Sir, that the loggers look forward in anticipation to ~reat co-operation from this government. It is interesting to note 1 Mr. Speaker, that as a do-nothin, government we spent $600,000 lnst year for the provision of forest access roads,whic:h is twelve times as much as was spent the previous year. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to see our ~overnment's continued 532

February 19, 1973 Tape 170 intention to put special emphasis on the fisheries programme, Fishing is very important in many narts of my district particularily in the areas between Soillnrs Cove, Bonaventure, as well as the South West Arm Area. There is a desperate need in this area for hetter f:ishlng facilities and most of them I know will come. I understand that plans are being made nt the moment for the construction of a lon~liner slipway in a certain area and details of this I assume will be released as soon as plans have been finalized.

There is one particul,:;r point concerning the fishery that I would like to stress, Sir, here and that is that in my district there are three large modern fish plants and they are all within probably a mile radius of each other. Out of the three fish nlants there is one that is operating,not rea11v on a full-time hasis,only on a seasonal basis and that is the fresh fish plant.

I do understand, Sir, that one if not two dragp.ers are to be added to the present fleet that unload their catches or ship their critches at this fresh fish plant and this, of course. will result in the possible opening of the plant on a year-around basis or otherwise~ Well in any case it would certainly incrense the number of people working there. The other two plants, Mr. Speaker, are salt fish plants and they are I would say the most modern salt fish plants on the Northeast Coast. Afi a matter of fa.ct in this House this afternoon we henrd the Premier 533

February 19, 1973 Tape 171 and the hon. Leader of the Opposition pay tribute to one of the pentlemen that owned one of these salt fish plants,in the person of JM - l Mr. Mifflin. Should these plants be reopened they would create somethin~ over three hundred permanent jobs in my district. N0w suggestions have been made to the Department of Fisheries that midwater trawlers should fish out of Catalina thus reviving these plants. I am encouraged, Mr.

Speaker, by the fact that the hon. l,linister of Fisheries is seriously studyinr, the prospects of reopening the plant and again this indicates my government 1 s emphasis on the fisheries pro~ramme. There is a desperate need, Sir. -for wharf building and repairs in several parts of my district. However. after almost twelve months of trying to get through to the Liberal Government i.n Ottnwa they are still turning a deaf ear. But perhaps now that we have a liberal representative for the Federal riding of Bonavista-Trinity-Conc-crtinn 1 we can expect to see new wharves ~oing up nll over the place.

MR._ BRETT: I hope so. ~r. Spcrrker AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). tt~:__.l:R!.:,T.!_: I bet it w11 l he r:nod. It will not be a libernl budget though. MR. NEARY: Oh it will. ·-----·- --- NR. BRETT: Yes, it will. Mr. Lewis's budget. Mr, Sneaker, our government in the Throne Speech have reiterated their intentions to further develop the tourist imhmtry. 1 laud the 5t.>ttinp up of the Department of Tnurism under the very cnpable ministership of the hon. member for Ferryland, unfortunatelv he is not here toriav. There is a desperate need for tourist development in the District nf Trinity North.

Sir, particularily in the Trinity-Port Rexton Area. I am very pleased, Sir, that the association for tht' restoration of the Deep Hi_ght water

February 19, 1973 Tape 171 JM - 2 wheel are making some progress with their project and I hope we can see a small rest park created in the area in the not too distant future. I feel, Sir, that the govern.~ent's move to licence homes for tourist accomodations will do much to expand the tourist potential in my area. It is the type of programme, Sir~ that will appeal to the people of Trinity North as well as bring added revenue to the tourist operators in my district. Mr.

Speaker, our government 1 s concern for our natural resources is manifested in our rural development programme which is proving to be such a success,again under the leadership of the Minister of Rural Development, the hon. member for Trinity South. I fail to see how even the members on the other side of the House can criticize this prop;ramme. Hundreds of new jobs hnve heen created. As a matter of fact I checked with the department before I went into this and they tell me that there have been 1~012 jobs created at a cost of $1,567,000. I would say that it is comparably low. MR. NEARY: Would you read out the list?

MR. BRETT: No, I do not have it, Sir. 1 am sorry. AN HPN. MEMBER: Would the hon. member like to have a list? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, I would. AN HON. MEMBER: Would the hon. member get us a list? A.1 HON. MEMBER: Have you asked for a list? MR. BRETT: I am not the minister of a department. Sir. I am sure that you would get it from the minister concerned. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. BRETT: You will get it from the minister if you want it. In my district alone, Mr. Speaker, fifty-eight new jobs have been created. MR. NEARY: Tell us where? MR. BRETT: No, I do not think 1 should but assistance 535

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 172 NM - l was given to thirteen saw-milling firms, one frn·m expansion firm and one bar manufacturing firm, would you not love to know? The people of Trinity North are grateful, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity given them by our government to develop resource based industries. This programme, Sir, will be an on-going one. Mr. Speaker, the establishment of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation by our government is another step in che right direction.

We would like to assure you Sir, that there are many people in the District of Trinity North who have waited long and are still waiting for the corporation to get moving. The delay was not caused by us, Mr~ Speaker, and it was most unfortunate that it was used as a political football for so long. I guess they were afraid in Ottawa that we just might get the credit for it. Hr. Speaker, I am pleased to note in the Throne Speech that our government is concerned about the basic health services in our province. In my district, Sir, there is a desperate need for a regional hospital.

I have every reason to believe.Sir, that this will become a reality in the not too distant future~ There is a need for doctors and for dentists. There is need for a doctor, particularly at Trinity which I understand will be taken care of shortly. There is only one dentist in the whole district, Sir, we need at least three. The problem, Sir, is not one of cost. This government is prepared to cover their share of the cost and they will do so. The problem, Sir, is in acquiring the dentist or the body,if you wish, the person who will serve our people.

I know that the Department of Health is working on this prohlem with the Dental Association and I have every confidence the problem will be resolved as soon as possible4

February 19, 1973 Tape NO. 172 NM - 2 Mr~ Speaker, I feel that I would be remiss in my duty if I did not offer some words of praise, still speaking on health, for the people of Trinity North, in the Clarenville and surrounding areas, who,through their own initiative and Yithout government assistance, constructed a very modern medical clinic. This clinic is presently staffed by two very competent doctors, a laboratory and x-ray technician. This clinic serves a very large area and is providing a much needed service to the people. Mr.

Speaker, the one thing, the most important thing that I would like to point out: about this clinic is that, Sir, this is a prime exa."Ilple of what people can do without hand-outs from the government, when a lot of initiative and hard-work is shown by the people concerned. Mr. Speaker, the people of Trinity North are proud of that particular accomplishment. Too bad the honourable member for Bell Island left. The honourable member for Bell Island, Sir, was very upset over the fact that our government has issued less short-term assistance this year than during the previous year. This, Mr.

Speaker, is typical of the nature of things that usually upset him. He chose to take one part of the Throne Speech out of context and refer to that alone, Sir. What he did not say was that the saving was due in part to a programme begun in September 1972 to assist social assistance recipients to locate and take advantage of employment opportunity, The special project, Sir, which was carried out in St. John's and Corner Brook, resulted in over five hundred social assistance recipients being placed in jobs.

Perhaps, Sir, the honourablE member for Bell Island would rather see these five hundred persons remain on welfare, quite possible. Being a welfare officer, Sir, for ten years, I feel I can speak with some knowledge, probably a little bit more knowledge than the 537

February 19, 1973 Tape No. 172 NH - 3 minister, speak with some knowledge of the past welfare ~rogrammes in this province, Sir. To say the least they have been and they still are inadequate. I am very happy to see that our government is taking steps to bring in a more adequate incentive-geared programme. 1 am not suggesting, Sir, that you did not try to do this. It is a very difficult problem. AN HON, HEHBER: Inaudible. MR. BRETT: Not at the moment, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, I feel that I must make mention of our government 1 s intention to pay close attention to our existing school curriculum, which Sir, and again I have some knowledr,e of this, is absolutely out-dated and as the Throne Speech indicates, must he more diversified. 1n the field of education, Sir, I am sure the teachers of our province are pleased to note ttwt iforing this sess-1or. of the House, the government intends legislation setting ur: procedures for collective bargaining with the Newfoundland Teachers Association. Personally I am very

February 19, 1973, Tape 173, Page 1 -- apb happy with this action on the part of our government, since I had the pleasure, Sir~ of working with a large number of teachers for a period of three years. Hr. Speaker, the opposition have been very vociferous over the lack of co~operation from the :Minister of Punicipal Affairs. In my opinion. the honourable m:tnister has the task of administerinp; one of the most difficult departments in government. He is doing an excellent job, Sir. To the best of my knowledge, no complaints have been received fro111 Trinity North regarding this department.

Believe me, Sir, we do have quite a number of municipalities. I am very pleased with this department. I am pleased that they have seen fit to continue three large water and sewerage programmes beinr carried out in Clarenville, Catalina and Port Union. I have no doubt. Sir. that other programmes of this nature will be started in the foreseeable future. Another very important point in the Throne Speech, Hr. Speaker, was the intention of our government to increase the maximum loan of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corpora.ti.on, from six thousand dollars to nine thousand dollars in rural areas. This, Hr.

Speaker, is ;mother step forward. Many people, Sir, in my district, as I am sure they have in other districts,have taken advantage of this programme and since housing is a problem in rural as well as urban areas, this programme should do much to alleviate the situation. }'R. NEARY: That is an old Liberal programme. Are there any new programmes? HR. BRETT: Well we increased it, did we not? Why did you not do it? SOMF. HON. J.''E!'1BERS: (Inaudible) HR. SPEAKER: Order please~ The honourable member has the rip:ht to be heard in silence~ HR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I feel certain that most memhers on both sides 539

February 19. 1973, Tape 173, Page 2 -- a.pb of the House are pleased with the povermncnts decision to redistribute the electoral districts of the province. You know, }'r. Speaker, we do not have too many cnr>inet minlsters, we have too few districts. ·t-1aybe this would solve the problem. AN HON. J,t'filffiER: Another joke. FR. BRETT: Of course, from your noint of view. There are, Sir, over 7,000 voters in the District ni:' Tdnity North, scattered over a very large geographical area. (That is a very interesting question).

It is d:i.fficult, Sir, and l said this in riy speech last year, althouih the honourable centleman from Bell Island said he has not heard me speak in the House. I do not know where he was last year at the openinf:;. It is difficult. Sir, I rcpeat,for one person to adequately serve such a large area and do just1ce to the people concerned. P,edistribution will hopefully take care of such situations. Hr. Speaker, I would like to say that my district is anything but unioue when it comes to the needs, the basic amenities.

Sir, we need road construction in the arens l-,etween Trinity and Trouty, Southwest .hrm~ Random Island an<l the Smith Sound Area. We need water and Sewerage facilities in many of our larger communities. We need better fishinp. f,,cilities. I could go on and on, r11r. Speaker, hut we have all heard them so many times in this House. Suffice it to say, Sir, that we have a goverITFlent that is cognizant of the needs of our province nnd this government is formulating long-range plans to see that these needs are met. Nr.

Speal:er, in closing and I did not talk for an hour and a­ hnlf, I could not possible conjure up that much wind, I would like to refer to my address in reply delivered during the first session of the Thirty-Sixth General Assembly on April 19, 1972. In that speech, Sir, I made reference to the beginning of a new era, a periodof reform. I stated, Sir, that I was proud to be a part of that reform group. !'r. Speaker, I am still proud to be a part of that group. I believe, Sir, that our government is trying to establish an administration that will 540

February 19, 1973, Tape 173, Page 3 -- npb hopefully yield the greatest quantity of happiness to the greatest number. We hnve been accused of heing arrogant, but I feel that this is far from the truth. We as a government uant to plan well to establish a sound and beneficial plan for continued progress in the future. AN !!ON. MEMBER: You do not de .a