First Session - Thirty-Third Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 35 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Myma A. Phi/lips Speaker ISSN 0542- 5492 VOL. XXXIV No. 24 - 2:00 p.m., WEDNESDAY, 11 JUNE, 1986. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Third Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ASHTON, Stave BAKER, Clarence BIRT, Charles T. SLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARSTAIRS, Sharon CONNERY, Edward J. COWAN, Hon. Jay CUMMINGS, J. Glen DERKACH, Len DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent L. DOER, Hon. Gary DOLIN, Marty DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert DUCHARME, Gerry ENNS, Harry J. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. FILMON, Gary FINDLAY, Glen M. HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Hon. Harry M. HARAPIAK, Hon. Leonard E. HARPER, Ho n. Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Ho n. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton McCRAE, James C. MERCIER, Q.C., G.M.J. (Gerry) MITCHELSON, Bonnie NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte L. ORCHARD, Donald W. PANKRATZ, Helmut PARASIUK, Wil son PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Hon. Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John ROCAN, C. Denis ROCH, Gilles (Gil) SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Q.C., Hon. Victor SCOTT, Don SMITH, Harvey SMITH, Hon. Muriel STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill WALDING, D. James WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Hon.

Judy CONSTITUENCY Thompson Lac du Bonnet Fort Garry Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli River Heights Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose Roblin -Russell St. Boniface Concordia Kildonan Arthur Emerson Aiel Lakeside Charleswood Brandon East Tuxedo Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Swan River Rupertsland Logan Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson St. James Elmwood Morris Brandon West St. Norbert River East Assiniboia Glads tone Pembina La Verendrye Transcona Selkirk Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Springfield Burrows Rossmere lnks ter Ellic e Osborne Flin Flon lnterlake St. Vital St.

Johns PARTY NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 11 June, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Present ing Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I beg leave to file the Annual Report of the Manitoba Human Rights Commission for the year ending March 31, 1985. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Education HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report of Manfor for the period ended March 31, 19 85. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. R. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 23, The Charter Compliance Statute Amendment Act, 19 86; Loi de 1986 mod ifiant diverses dis positions legisla tives afin d'assur er le respect de la Charta. HON. J. STORIE introduced, by leave, Bill No. 24,

An Act to amend The Teachers' Pensions Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la pension de retraite des enseignants. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEA KER: Before we proceed to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 36 students from Grade 5 from the J.R. Reid School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Cliv e Taylor, Mrs. Gross, and Mr. Sawatzky, and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Brandon West. We have 45 students from Grades 5 and 6 from the MacGr egor Elementary School, and these students are under the direction of Mrs. Ro berta Stone.

The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member tor Gladstone. We have 27 students from Grade 5 from the Chappan School. The students are under the direction of Mr. Robert Weber, and the school is lo cated in the constituenc y of the Ho nour able Leader of the Opposition. We have 24 students from Grade 6 from the St. Andrews School. These students are under the direction 778 of Mrs. Barbara Tanner, and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable First Min ister. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon.

We also have with us this afternoon in the Speaker's Gallery Mr. Roy Romano, who is the former Attorney­ General of Saskatchewan and the former MLA for Saskatoon-Riversdale. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Multicultural Advertising Program - financial participation by province MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Min ister of Busine ss Development and Tourism.

In January of this year, the Federal Minister of Tourism announced a pilot project for the promotion of a multicultural tourist combination in Manitoba. That project annou ncement was to have inv olved the participation of industry, the City of Winnipeg, cultural gr oups and the province, as well as the Federal Government. My question to the Min ister is will the Provincial Government be participating financially in this project? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Business Development and Tourism. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I ass ume that th e mem ber is refer ring to the advertising program, Multicultu ral Advertising Program, I wonder if he mentioned that. First of all, I'm very interested in that advertising program. We're very interested in promoting multicultur alism as one of our major promotions for tourists in the Province of Manitoba, so we're interested in a program of that kind. We have a few problems with that particular program, and I mentioned them to the Min ister , to Mr. Murta, when I met with him about two weeks ago.

Those concerns that we have are, first of all, it's very late in the year to be beginning a project, it's sup posed to start on June 19 was the designated day. We're very concerned that it's a little late in the day to catch people More impo rtantly, my major concern about the project is that there was no participation or involvement of the lntercultural Council, and we were very concerned that a program of that nature . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. We are having some difficulty with the sound system. I understand someone is looking into it. What is the will of the House?

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 Obviously, it won 't be recorded on Hansard. I am not quite sure whether it's everyone's mike or ... A MEMBER: It's working now ; we're hearing it. MADAM SPEAKER: Is it working now ? Okay, would the Honourable Minister like to try again? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Madam Speaker, I would like to try again to get the points across .

We are interested in a multicultural advertising campaign for the Province of Manitoba because one of our major tourist attractions is the marvellous multicultural nature of this province, but we want to make sure that the money that's being put into a program like that, ours and everybody else's, is being put to good use. I indicated that we were concerned there had been no involvement or participation of the ethnic community particularly through the lntercultural Council.

I am in the process of consulting with them, Madam Speaker, and letting them review the promotional and the advertising package to see how they feel about it in terms of promoting multiculturalism in Manitoba. I expect to have a response from them about their reaction to this although it's late in the day. I wish it had been done much earlier and I indicated that to the Federal Minister. It should have been a basic part of developing the program. I expect a response from them very soon and that will have an effect on our final decision about whether or not to participate and put our money into it.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I recognize that the Minister may have been involved late in the game partially because of her own appointment to the position, no doubt; but I know that the Minister met on the 16th of May with federal department officials . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: Absolutely, Madam Speaker. Given that the project is intended to begin on the 19th of June, when does the Minister intend to make a decision on the matter? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, I thought I was quite clear on that. The lntercultural Council is moving and, in fact, I think is calling special meetings in order to review the material, and as soon as I have had a response from them so that we can make sure that we're not proceeding with a major advertising campaign that promotes multiculturalism for the Province of Manitoba without any agreement or support or involvement of the ethnic community ; as soon as we have that response and that agreement that it's a good campaign and we should proceed with it, we are prepared to make a decision and to give them our answer.

MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether or not she expects to have a decision before the campaign begins. 779 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Madam Speak er, it was not us that set the date of June 19, it was the Federal Government that had set the date and they are saying, we are going on the 19th whether your money is in there or not. Our money will be in there if we are satisfied that it's a good program, that it's good promotion, and that the ethnic and the ethnocultural communities are in agreement with it, Madam Speaker . MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the City of Winnipeg has agreed to participate in the package and has accepted it; given that various different cultural groups that have been involved in it have accepted the package, albeit not the lntercultural Council; there are other cultural groups ; given that industry people and the Federal Government are all participating, is the Minister suggesting that the province has different criteria from all these other groups? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Developmen t and Tourism . HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, first of all, when he mentions representative of the cultural community , I think there was a representative of the Folk Art Council on the consortium that made the decision, which is representative of a group of people but in no way could be considered broad representation of the multi-cultural community, or the ethno-cultural community. That wasn't the only concern that we had .

I mean , having it very late in the date , starting on June 19, we think that most of the people in the target populations that we're appealing to will have previously made their decisions on where they 're going in the summer. To do it two or three weeks before they 're going to start, the holidays are going to start, and think that you're going to catch them , I think it's very late in the day. So we are concerned about that. We think it's too late, but we have other bigger concerns. It's a one­ shot deal and we don 't agree with that.

We think that we should be building a program over a period of years and establishing a base, and this is a shot of money that's going in very late in the day, only for one year with no follow-up, and we think it's poorly designed . We've communicated all of our concerns to the Federal Government . When I said late in the day, Madam Speaker, it wasn't late in the day for me because I have just taken over this portfolio; it was late in the day for the involvement of the ethno-cultural community, who must be involved in making decisions like this. MR. G.

FILMON: Given all of those concerns that the Minister has now expressed, can we take it that the province will not be participating in the project? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, I think that I have given enough information to indicate that this is not the best designed promotional advertising program that we could have. It is not one that we would design and it does not have the elements we would want to have . However , because we want to promote multi­ culturalism in the Province of Manitoba , we want to participate whenever we can to help that. If the lntercultural Council believes that the representation

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 is done well , is accurate in the good reflection of our community and ou r culture, then we 're willing to consider it. If they think it's not , then the answer will definitel y be no. WMC Research Associates - tabling of contract MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speake r, my quest ion is for the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology . I have asked him several times in this House whether or not he would table the contract which has been table d before the Freedman Inquiry, between WMC Research Associates and the Manitoba Energy Authority.

MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Industry , Trade and Technology . HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, Madam Speaker. I hear the Member for Pembina mumbling th at , "You just happen to have it." I hope I do have it. I had intended to bring it this afternoon, but it appears tha t I don't have it here now. I will ask my office to send it so that it is here before the end of this question period . Farm Start Program MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture about the Farm Start Program .

It was highlighted in the Budget Speech, where agriculture was called the priority. Urgent funds are requested for that program under the Emergency Money Bill, 13. In answer to my questions in Estimates last night, he indicated that 50 percent of the young farmers applying to MACC have been turned down this spring, twice the decline rate of a year ago. Since in the Bill 13 discussion Monday night , there was no indication of criteria . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G.

FINDLAY: I would like the Minister to indicate to the House what he has instructed his staff to do regarding the drafting of criteria for the Farm Start Program. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, the honourable member being an observer in this House should in fact wait for the second reading of the bill which will be before the House this afternoon, and he will hear the principles in terms of the amendments to the Manitoba Agricultural Corporation which will be the legislative 780 authority granted to the government to make provision for the Farm Start Program .

I am hopeful , Madam Speaker, th at members on the opposite side who were critical about the apportionment of $5 million for the program and wanted us to remove it will now change their minds and be prepared o support . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Membe r for Virden . MR. G. FINDLAY: ... the criteria. We want to know when the criteria will be made available to us. HON. B. URUSKI: Mad am Speaker , I indic ated to the honourable membe r the other night that we were working on the criteria . There were several options being conside red and the work is continuing.

Home Economics Directorate - status of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you , Madam Speaker. My question is to the First Min ister. It's my understanding that the Home Economics Directorate was a matter of some considerat ion today at the Cabinet meeting . Can you tell us what is going to happen to those four positions? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. It is not in order to ask what has proceeded in Cabinet . Would the member like to rephrase her quest ion ? MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

Can the Honourable First Minister give us an update on what is going to happen to the four home economic positions? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture will respond to that. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I thank the honourable member for her question . As the member knows, consultations with the Women's Institute , the Home Ee Association and other parties dealing with the provision of those services are continuing and some options are being considered at the present time.

When those consultations are concluded, an announcement will be made , Madam Speaker . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementary question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, Madam Speaker. Can you tell us exactly what the duties of these four home economists are at the present time , or will he keep me in suspended animation? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, the duties of the home economists that the member speaks about, those positions are in place and the staff are carrying out

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 their normal functions. That review is undertaken and a number of possible mandate approaches are being looked at. But th at's an ongoi ng discussion and consultations are being undertaken. Chaildren's Hospital (old) - power failure MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Health . Yesterday, in response to a question in the House, he said there will be more . . . (inaudib le) . . . Can the Minister indicate in fact . . . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Yes, Madam Speaker , what I said yesterday that I heard if there had been any change at all, and I inquired as I had promised and I have the answer. This is the information that I was given. Remedial work at the new Children 's Hospital Building envelope is essentially complete with the exception of some brick work and the building fan syste m controls which will be complete in commission by the end of June . Occupancy of Levels 1 and 2, the clinic areas , is scheduled for July 19, 1986 and of Levels 3, 4, and 5, the in-patient wards for the last week of Jul y, the first week in August .

No date has been set for the official opening of this building. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Madam Speaker , I have a new question for the Minister of Health. Given the fact that the Minister stated he was not made aware of the second power failure at the Children 's Hospital almost three weeks ago, what communication mechanism does he have in place to ensure he will be kep t fully infor med as to the realiability of the electrical system at this facility, to ensure the safety of those children that could be placed in a life-threatening situation, should another power failure occur? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I think the honourable member and the members of the opposition will have to realize that the governmen t doesn 't run all the institutions. We are responsible for the financing. There is a board made up of reasonable peopl e, responsible people in the community; a good example is the Chairman of the Health Sciences Centre. Then there is a commission which is, up to a certain point , arm's length from the department ; they deal with the day-to-day.

I am informed of anything that is felt that should be brought to the attention either of Cabinet or of myself , and I try to keep abreast of all developments. It is very difficult . I don't know what's happening to Concordia Hospital at this very minute. I don't know who 's being admitted ; I'm very sorry for that. Now we've got the information and they don 't have to wait till the Minister of Health tells them, you're going to do something. We have people ru nning these hospitals in Manitoba that are responsible people , that are just interested in keeping people well and taking 781 care of the children.

They don 't have to be told by politici ans or they don't even have to have people in opposition try to make "Browni e points " by bringing inform ation like that. I can tell you that the Chairman of the Health Sciences Centre is just as interested as the Memb er for Pembina to see the people well. And I have some informati on. You aske d a question; you don't want the answer. I'll give you the answer anyway . I'll give you the information that was prepared for me by the commission .

Part of the work included in the renovations of the old Children's Hospital for the neonatal intensive care unit was the upgrading of the emergency pow er service for the bui lding. This work was in no way related to the new Children's Hospital, as the pediatric critica l areas will remain in the old building for several years, until the next phase of the redevelopment is comp lete . Although it is still not known with certainty wha t caused the pow er interruptions, the equi pment manufacturer, West inghouse, has identified minor difficiencies in the breakers in the automatic transfer switch.

They have replaced all four breake rs and since that work was done , there's been no recurrence of the problem. They have been unable to make the problem recur in testing under simu lated conditions. Since the last power interruption, on the 23rd of May, a 24-hour watch has been maintained by the equi pmen t manufacturer and Health Sciences Centre maintenance personnel , and will be maintained until the Health Sciences Centre is satisfied that the system is reliable. It is doubtful that it would be necessary to evacuate the entire building , should a prolonged pow er interruption occur .

Only 12 to 15 patients are on life ­ support apparatus at any given time. Medical and nursi ng staff would evaluate the risk of moving those pat ients to another portion of the centre, as opposed to keeping them in the building and using manual life­ support systems. Temporary lighting with alternative power sources has been provided in critical care areas . The Health Sciences Centre has in-house generating capability for the critical care areas in the Centre, and is in the process of upgradi ng the emergency power system, increasing the reliability of the stand-by power, increasin g generat ing capacity.

There are numerous primary sour ces of power from the utility, Winnipeg Hydro, to the Health Sciences Centre complex with automati c alternative feeders . At the second level of supply , there are 14 transfer switches which would allow switchover of various buildings to the emergency generator . The third level of supply and the battery -powered lighting in most critical care areas which provides minimal lighting to the interval between normal and emergency power. There is - (Interjection) - I thought you were interested to see that those kids were taken care of.

Members want to know what kind of people run the hospital. I thou ght you wanted to know who ran these hospitals. For those who are inter ested, there is currently - (Interject ion) - the facts . What the hell do you think that is? There is currently approved within Manitoba 's Health Science s Capital Budget approximately a $5 million program of upgrading the emergency power system at the Health Sciences Centre besides increasing the reliability of the generator system controls and automatic transfer switches.

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'm finished anyway . MADAM SPEAKER : Perhaps when Ministers have lengthy answers, they could consider tabling their answer. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you , Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health and it follows on his answer before he read the letter before he prolonged question period.

Madam Speaker, when did the Minister of Health change the ministerial responsibility of himself, as Minister of Health, where he no longer takes any initiative so that his departmen t informs him of life­ threatening situations at the Children's Hospital , which have been repeated? When did he remove himself from the ministerial responsibilit y from that? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I think that I take my responsibility very seriously .

Right now , I am busy trying to, as much as possi ble, work with the responsible people in Manitoba to make sure that we try to keep, as much as possible , the best health system in the world. I think that we also have staff and people in the hospitals who are there to run, some of them, the everyday business, and report to the Commission if there's any problem and to the Minister . But I will not pretend that I am as smart as the honourable member in front of me that I can run the whole thing, nor do I want to be a dictator in this field .

It takes an awful lot of people to work together and this is what I'm trying to do. MR. D. ORCHARD: Would the Minister not care to share with the House why his staff , and why he would not insist his staff , would keep him informed of life­ threatening situations? Is that, all of a sudden , not the Minister of Health 's responsibility in his new rules of responsibility in Cabinet? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Would the honou ra ble member like to rephrase his question without asking for an opinion? The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. Bridge, North Selkirk MR. D.

BLAKE: Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister .

Considering the fact the Minister of Highways, in committee last evening, indicated that the decision to loca te the new bridge on the north of Selkirk locatio n, there was a political decision approved by Cabinet, the land acqui sition, would the First Minister consider it fair treatment to Manitobans and, particularly , to his constituents for the offers that they have been made for land that's required for the new bridge property - $77,000-some for a three-and-a-half acre site with good buildings, outbuildings, treed, well landscaped - would he consider that fair treatment for Manitobans, and particularly his constituents? 782 MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

Would the honourable member please like to rephrase his question so he does not seek an opinion? Whether the Honourable Mini ste r cares or not is irrelevant. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa . MR. D. BLAKE: Would the First Minister undertake to obtain fair and adequate treatment for his constituents in the acquisition of their property for the new Selkirk Bridge? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: First , Madam Speaker , the honourable member has his constituencies a bit mixed up. It's the constituency of Gimli, not the constituency of Selkirk .

But under the provisions of the existing legisla tion, there is a fair and proper process that provides for land acquisition, the determination of value in respec t to land being acquired by the government and also, Madam Speaker , a process for appeal in the event of dissatisfaction by a claimant. MR. D. BLAKE: Madam Speaker , in view of the fact that it was indicated last eveni ng in committee that other bridges could not be buil t because they hadn't been able to acquire the property, why was the property for th is bridge site location not acquired before construction of the bridge commenced? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, it's my understanding that the process was the normal process that is followed in respect to the acquisition of lands for public works. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa with a final supplementary. MR. D. BLAKE: Madam Speaker, final supplementary. The proper ty that is being acquired for this bridge , there were eviction notices issued which gave them about 30 days notice to acquire a suitable location to move into, which has been extended in some cases to the 1st of July.

Would the Minister feel that this is adequate time for people to acquire another home site and to move from their existing property? MADAM SPEAKER: Would the hon ourable member like to rephrase his question, what the Minister feels is irrelevant? MR. D. BLAKE: We have an indication of what the Minister feels in this connection , Madam Speaker . Would the First Minister undertake to intervene in these cases where there is extreme hardship being placed upon these people to find a suitable location in order to move? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speak er, the norma l process is the one that is being pursued in this particular instance to the best of my knowledge. I think it's best that we permit the normal processes to proceed , rather than calling upon government intervention, requesting abnormal pressures to be brought to bear. To the best

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 of my knowledge, the people involved had much more than a 30-day notice in respect to the particular circumstances involved. Forgiven Loans MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I had taken as notice a couple of questions. I would like to respond to one. It was on May 28th from the Leader of the Opposition with respect to an Order-in-Council providing det ails of businesses that had loans deemed uncollectible by the governmen t and thus written off . I have a copy of the listing of those loans that I'll provide for the memb er.

In addition , I also took a . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. We can't hear the Honourable Minister . WMC Research Associates contract HON. E. KOSTYRA: They may not be interested in the reply, Madam Speaker. The other question I took as notice was on June 5th, also from the Honourable Leader of the Opposition , with regard to the amount of money paid out in fiscal year 1985-86 to WMC Research Associates.

The amount of money paid out during that fiscal year was $26 ,921 , which was paid out on behalf of three departments : the Department of Cooperative Development, the Department of Labour and the Department of Northern Affairs . Bridge, North Selkirk MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister and follows on the questions of my colleague from Minnedosa.

The First Minister, having inspected that property that is being expropriated from the Partridges for the construction of the Selkirk Bridge, does the First Minister not believe that a fair offer should be made during expropriation wherein . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. What the Minister believes or not . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh yes, I forgot . Madam Speaker , I forgot that you cautioned me the First Minister doesn't care. Madam Speaker, let me rephrase the question.

Would the First Minister, in view of the fact that an offer has been made to the Partridge family of some $78,000 for over three acres of river front property - house, garage, outbuildings, completely landscaped - and the nearest replacement property, not river property, of one-half acre, the same sized house, no 783 landscaping and outbuilding, is costing them $103,000, would the First Minister not take it upon himself, as he has promised to these people, that he will intervene on their behalf and ensure that they are treated fairly before they are evicted from their property on July 1st?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Ministe r o f Highways . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker , the Memb er for Pembina is quite aware that there is an expropriation process that is standard and deals with all of the situations whenever a property is required for public need. In this particular case, that process has been followed, an initial offer is mad e that is based on market value , 100 percent of market value .

If the individuals do not agree with that value they can appeal to the Land Value Appraisal Commission ; if they do not agree with that, they can appeal to the cou rts , Madam Speaker , and their legal expense s are paid by the province . That is the process in place. In all cases, the people have been given greater lengths of time to be removed from their property, or leave their property, than is required under the process and the regulations that are in place . This has been done to ensure that they do have ample time to make further arrangements.

It should also be mentioned , Madam Speaker , that the individuals that are affected by the location of this bridge were aware some time over the last two to three years that the bridge site was going to be in their vicinity. There were public hear ings held , meetings held in the area and, certainly , they were aware that the bridge was going to be constructed in that area and should be making other arrangements for additional property.

Madam Speaker, let me just say that expropriation is never a pleasant process but it is a necessary process in order to accomplish major public projects for the public good, and that is unfortunately the only system that is in place to ensure that the public inte rest is protected, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: The Member for Pembina with a supplem entary? MR. D. ORCHARD: No, Madam Speaker, since the First Minister couldn't answer the first one, I will pose a new ques tion to the Minister of Government Services.

Can the Minister of Government Services indicate why the Land Value Appraisal Commission, in view of the fact that the Partridges own six acres of property, why the offer is being made on only 4.38 acres, leaving a strip of land adjacent to the river which the government has offered to take off the hands of the Partridges at no compensation . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . The question is (inaudible) and may I also remind the honourable member that he should not cast aspersions on any member of the House. Would you like to rephrase your question without getting into a debate, to obtain information and not give it?

MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, the

preamble to my question has to contain certain information, and I beg for leave . . .

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The honourable member knows that a supplementa ry doesn't need a

preamble. Do you have a supplementary question? MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, I am posing a new question to the Minister of Government Services in which a

preamble, I believe, according to your rules is permitted. Thank you, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: If it's a new question, proceed. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: As I indicated earlier, it was a new question, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina should not enter into arguments with the Chair. If you have a question, ask your question. MR. D. ORCHARD: You are absolutely correct, Madam Speaker; I am attempting to pose a question. Madam Speaker, my question is for the Mi nister of Government Services.

In view of the fact that the Partridges own six acres of land, which is riverfront prope rty, and the expropriation order is for slightly over four acres, and the government has indi cated to the Partridges that they will not compensate the Partridges for the balance of land, of riverfront property, but will take it off their hands at no cost, does the Government Services Minis ter believe, and is he following, or is the department following the rules of expropriation where they are offering no compensation for the extra parcel of land? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minis ter of Government Services. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I explained this whole process to the Member for Pembina yesterday during the Estim ates process. The Min isters, the Premier or the Mi nister responsible, or any of my other colleages do not get involved in the exprop riation process. We have professional people that are involved in doing that. The same procedures they are applying in this particular case is applied in all expropriations. Those rules are being applied and it is not a matter of a political decision. I indicated there is an initial offer that is subject to negotiation; that is what can take pla ce.

The individuals can accept the initial offer without prejudice to the final settlement, and I outlined the process that was in place. Clear ly, it is there and it is as fair as it can be under the circumstances, and it applies to all expropriation processes. NRC Building - status of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Mini ster of Indus try, Trade and Tech nol ogy. 784 Has the Minister had any discussions with the Federal Government over the half utilized - oh well, it's almost empty - NRC building in Winnipeg.

What is the status of the - is it 25, or what is the status of that building now? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Industry, Trade and Technolo gy. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We are having some discussions at the moment. We have indicated, from a provincial perspective, that we are prepared to participate in staffi ng the place.

Obviously, we still think it's unfortunate, and I am sure the Opposition does, that a project which the previous government, this government, labour , the Manufacturing Association of Manitoba and so on, the university commun ity, the research commu nity, all felt it was very impo rtant as a national centre for excellence is being apparently downgraded somewhat. Nevertheless, we are prepared to work to ensure the best of success for what we now have left there. MR. H. SMITH: Can the Mi nister tell us how many scientists o r emplo yees are there in that building presently? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: I take that question as notice. I know that there is one scientist and at least one or two caretakers in there, but I can ... (inaudible) the honourable member with that. While I'm up, Madam Speaker, if I can table - (Interjec tion) - If you would just be quiet for a bit, you would be able to hear . . . MADAM SPEAKER: May I inform the Honourable Mi nister that his microphone is one of the ones that are not working. If he could speak loud er, we'd all appreciate it. WMC Research Associates - contract HON. V.

SCHROEDER: I have here a copy of the WFC Research Associates contract which the Leader of the Opposition had requested. I would like to table that. Lake Winnipeg levels HON. V. SCHROEDER: While I am on my feet, as well, there was a question asked by the Member for Lakeside yesterday as to the current lake level of Lake Winnipeg as of yesterday. As of yesterday, the lake level was 71 4.96. Western Canada Games in 1991 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speak er, I wish to direct a question to the Mi nister responsible for Sport.

Madam Speaker, in today's Brandon Media the Ho nourable Mem ber for Brandon East, and the defeated New Democratic candidate in Brandon West,

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 says that I, the Member for Brandon West, all by myself scuttled Brandon's chance to host the Western Canada Games by forcing the Minister for Sport to answer yesterday. Madam Speaker, aside from the fact that I don 't believe anybody in this House forces any Minister opposite to answer, and they often don 't, can we take it from what the Member for Brandon East says that up until yesterday Brandon's interest in the games, which the Minister of Sport claims to have had no knowledge until recently, would have been considered.

MADAM SPEAKER: Is the honourable member quoting from a newspaper report? MR. J. McCRAE: No, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Sport. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I don 't know what's going on with the news media in Brandon, but I answered that question before and I hoped you would understand that we did not ask for any application for site. It is not - (Interjection) - Just a minute . Let him answer for himself. I don't know what . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . HON. L. DESJARDINS: I don't know what he said in Brandon . In the Canada Games you do; in the Manitoba Games you do also.

In the Western Canada Games , it isn't. The city is designated by the province. It was always understood that it would be in Winnipeg . There's no participation from the Federal Government. It is a question of cost also for the facilities and also that Winnipeg would not qualify, unless they changed the rules for Canada Games, nor Manitoba Games. Brandon had the last games, so I think it perfectly fair. Now, it was said yesterday, why didn't I let him know? Nobody was invited to make application. I received a call from the mayor, as I said. last week or a week.

I instructed my Director of Sports to tell him that fine, there was no point in coming because we were not inviting applications . This was done. The mayor wasn't there. I checked with the Director of Sports today and he did relay the information to his secretary, I was told . MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I thank the Minister for that answer, but I make the point that I believe the message did not get through. Can the Minister table any correspondence between his department and the City of Brandon , confirming the games would be held in Winnipeg and that Brandon need not bother submitting any bid?

Was this decision and the announcement, did the Minister allow all Manitobans to know where the games would be held , particularly those people in Brandon? Did he let them know in writing? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I will not let them know in writing because I never received anything in writing from them. I've checked with my office today again. There was a phone call . My Director of Sports phoned, the mayor was absent, he left the message with the secretary . I get a lot of messages from my secretary. 785 I think that he must have got it.

Besides , the Honourable Member for Brandon West tells us that he represents Brandon. Sure enough , you can give them a phone call. MR. J. McCRAE: I have a new question for the Minister. Yesterday, Madam Speaker , the Min ister said something about having recei ved a letter a week or so ago and I wonder if he brought that letter with him today? From whom was the letter and will he table the letter in the House today? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That is correct, Madam Speaker .

I did say yesterday that I thought I'd received a letter from the mayor and, checking, it was a phone call and the phone call - (Interjection) - Well, well, the people that never make any mistakes. If you 're going to sing, why don't you sing in unison? At least you won't be off key. I apologize - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa . It wasn't a letter. It was a phone call and the phone call was returned . MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. I would like to bring to honourable members' attention that we are having difficulty with the microphones.

There's approximat ely eight micropho nes that are not working . We have sent for the technicians to try to find what the problem is. It's suggested that perhaps we consider recessing for about half an hour if honou rab le members see that as a problem. We cannot record certain members ' comments on Hansard. What is the will of the House? Does the House want to proceed under those circumst ances? The Chair is seeking some direct ion . The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Perhaps, Madam Speaker, I can consult with the Opposition House Leader for one moment and we can give you some direction forthwith . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker , I believe we've reached an agreement which will allow the continuation of the House. With your approval , what we would like to do is have second readings on Bill No. 11 and Bill No. 22, in that order . It would be my intention to call Bill No. 4 at that time .

We would then go into Estimates and we would have Estimates outside the House as per we have in the last couple of days for Highways and Transportation ; Esti mates inside the House for Agriculture , but what we'd like to do with your permission is seek approval to have the speakers sit in mikes from the Member for St. Boniface down so that you would get the audio portion for Hansard, so they would be speaking not from their seats but from seats with operative mik es until we have the rest of the mikes repaired. MADAM SPEAKER: Do we have leave of the House then to have people sit in other than their own seats

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 for the durat ion? (Agreed) We must have the same electrical system as the Children's Hospital. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speake r, would you please call for Second Reading, Bill No. 11,

An Act to amend The Planning Act; Bill No. 22,

An Act to amend The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act; and then Bill No. 4, The Family Farm Prot ection Act , in that order ; and we will then, upon completion of that business, move the House into Committee of Supply. SECOND READING BILL 11 - THE PLANNING ACT; LA

LOI SUR L'AMENAGEMENT DU TERRITOIRE HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK presented, by leave, Bill No. 11,

An Act to Amend The Planning Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'am:aenagement du territoire , for Second Reading . MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to provide members with a brief

summary of the amendm ents proposed to The Planning Act. Particularly for the benefit of those who were not here last year, this bill had been previously introduced and it's being reintroduced this year.

Part VI of The Planning Act deals with the subdivision approval process. After 10 years, the department , mos t municip alities and the planning districts , have come to realize the need the clarify this process . The department , in particular, has altered its review process in order to respond as eff iciently and fairly as possible to applicants, and to ensure the provincial resources are adequately protected . However , there are still provisions in

Part VI which should be amended to better achieve these objectives. Many of the revisions are of a minor nature, such as the reordering of sections or rewording clauses to clarify the intent. Some of the revisions are more significant. To summarize , the significant changes being proposed to

Part VI of The Planning Act are as follows: First of all, the provision which permits the Minister to delegate subdivision approving authority to a single municipality will be removed. Subdivision approving authority would be delegated by the Minister solely to planning districts . However, districts will be able approve subdivisions only if they have first been approved by council. Secondly, a provision is proposed to perm it a municipal council to add, alter , or cancel any conditions included in a previous resolution approving a subdivision application .

This provision would allow councils to make reasonable changes to subdivision proposals . Provision 786 is made to allow app licants to appeal these conditions to the Municipal Board in order to pro tect the applicant from unreasonable conditions . The third significant change: The Act was amended five years ago to permit the regulations to require that a municipality give notice of a subdivision application to surrounding landowners . However, no such regulations were made. The departmen t feels that this type of provision is very fundamental to the subdivision process.

Therefore, the notic e requirements will be clearly outlined in the Act, rather than in the regulations. This provision would apply only to municipalities which do not have an approved plan. The fourth significant change is a new provision which will authorize the approving authority to grant conditional approval for a sub division . This conditional approval would be valid for a 24-mo nth period. Once the applicant fulfills all conditions of approval , the approving authority will be required to issue a Certificate of Approval.

This condition will clarify our curr ent use of tentative approval as permi tted in the regulations. The proposed change would clearly define the scope of conditional approval and clearly list all the types of conditions which could be attached. Currently , the var ious conditions are scattered through severa l different sections of the Act and regulations , and would not be clearly evident to the applicant. The approving authority will now be able to apply only those types of conditions provided for in the Act.

The fifth significant chan ge, a number of substantial provisions currently included in the regu lat ions pursuant to the Act , would be transferred to the Act itself. The scope of the new regu lations would be confined prima rily to procedural matters. It is expected that persons applying to subdivide land would generally be more satisfied with the amended legislation. The amendme nts would outline more clearly the steps involved in the subdivision review proce ss. Some minor amendments to other parts of the act are also being proposed primarily to clear up procedural matters.

I should also indicate that I will provide a more detailed synopsis of the bill to the members of this House, which will enable members to debate this on second reading and to deal with this matter at the committee level. Thank you . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, M. Dolin: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wonder if the Minister could answer a couple of minor questions for clarification befor e I adjourn the debate. The question for clarification , Mr.

Chairman, is has the Minister had communication with the Union of Municipalities, and the loca l jurisdictions dealing with this, in development of this legislation? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: My understanding is that my predecessor had reviewed thi s with the various municipal bodies. As I indicated , this one had been introduced in the House last year and I believe it had been withdrawn because it had not been transl ated. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Morris , that the debate be adjourned .

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next item is Bill No. 22,

An Act to amend The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Societe due credit agricole . BILL 22 - THE AGRICULTURAL CREDIT CORPORATION ACT; LA

LOI SUR LA SOCl~T~ DU CR~DIT AGRICOLE HON. B. URUSKI presented, by leave , Bill No. 22,

An Act to amend The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Societe du credit agricole , for Second Reading . MOTION presented. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Agriculture . HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce for second reading Bill No. 22,

An Act to amend The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act. The act amends existing legislation in order to allow my government to fulfill one of our party's campaign commitments to rural Manitobans, namely, to assist with the orderly transfer of farms between ret iring farmers and their successors. In Manitoba, approximately 500 to 1,000 new entrants try to establish themselves in farming each year. This is more than offset, however, by the exodus of some 1,500 others leaving the industry . Even more critical to the future of Manitoba agriculture is the age distribution of those remaining in the industry.

Statistics Canada estimates that approximately 16 percent of Manitoba's 29,922 farmers are 65 years or older and more than 40 percent of our farming population are over 55 years of age . In the area of financial assistance to farmers, my government's focus has been and will continue to be on the younger and beginning farmers, especially those who expanded during the period of high interest rates . The Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation has been a central element in this endeavour and the vehicle for delivering many of the specific programs designed to target such assistance .

Because of its eligibility criteria, MACC 's clientele is predominantly young and beginning farmers, with the average client age being 28 years. Consequently, MACC's programming is especially tailored to meet the often unique needs of this group of Manitoba farmers . I'd like to take this opportunity to briefly describe for this House some of the programs to which I am alluding . MACC offers direct loans at rates fixed for the full term of the loan, at a maximum of $200,000, repayable over a period of up to 31 years.

Over $200 million has been loaned in this fashion to more than 10,000 Manitoba farmers for the purchase or improvement of land, the purchase of livestock or machinery, and the consolidation of debts . During the 1985-86 fiscal year, 775 fixed rate loans totalling $32.3 million were made under MACC's direct lending programs . Sir, in 1983, a Guaranteed Operating Loan Program was introduced which secures a portion of the operating credit provided by banks to relatively high-risk clients ; 787 550 farmers received guaranteed operating loans for $32.2 million in 1985-86.

Over the life of the program, roughly 700 Manitoba farmers have received $97 million in operating credit which they might not otherwise have been able to obtain. The Manitoba Interest Rate Relief Prog ram has provided approximately $12 million in aid to 1,200 farmers facing difficulties associated with high interest rates. Last year 206 farmers received $1.2 millio n in second-year assistance under that program. Rebates are made to MACC clients under 40 years of age who are not in arrears to the extent of 4 percent of the value of their land, up to a maximum rebate of $2,000 per year for a period of five years.

Mr. Deputy Speake r, because I guess of the work going on and some of the noise, I refrained for the time being from continuin g with my remarks . I indicated to the members of the House , that for those clients who are under 40 years of age who are not in arrears, 4 percent of the value of their loan , up to a maximum rebate of $2,000 per year, is made for up to five years; $2.2 million was returned to young Manitoba farmers last fiscal year as a result of this program.

The Interest Rate Reduction Program enabled 640 farmers to buy down interest rates on MACC loans for savings to these farme rs o f over $18 million based on the amount of credit tha t they had borrowed during the period of high interest rates. The total amount of borrowings during that period was some $54 million, I believe , Mr. Deputy Speaker . I did not have the exact amount in my notes. Last year, the Comprehensive Refinancing Program was introduced to assist farmers in financial distress .

This program provides for loans of up to $200 ,000 to individual farmers for the consolidat ion and restructuring of their debts. For the first five years of the loan, the interest rate is at 9. 75 percent. At the end of the five years, the interest rate reverts to MACC's regular rates at the time the loan was made. This past year, 77 loans were made for $8.2 million. As of May 16, 1986, MAGG had another 52 applications on hand for approximately an additional $7 million of debt consolidation and restructuring.

Many of MACC's clients , like producers throughout this country , continue to encounter serious financial difficulties. For the second year in a row, the interest rates on MACC's direct loans were reduced to 8 percent for the 1985-86 fiscal year. This was done with the objectives of both providing much needed assistance to MACC clients most of whom, as mentioned earlier, are younger or beginning farmers with limited equity , and to demonstrate to the Federal Government and other lending institutions that provision for meaningful assistance to farmers is both desirable and possible .

An estimated 3,500 Manitoba farmers received $10.7 million in assistance from MACC over the past two years due to the int erest-rate write down on approximately 5,200 loans . Loans for Part-Time Farmers is a new program started in the latter part of 1985 which will provide loan assistance for part-time farmers who intend to become principally occupied in farming. Along with the sensitive and flexible credit arrangements , the best insurance against future difficulties is to equip young farmers with good financial

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 management and decision-making skills. Our staff have provided about 1, 000 in-depth consultations during the past year for farmers who want to accurately assess their financial situation. To date approxima tely 3,500 farmers have benefitted from this service. Intensive farm financial counselling is now the main extension thrust of my department. As well, farm business groups have been established and the concept has proven to be highly successful.

The two-year program, Sir , aims to upgrade farm management capabilities, primarily of young farmers in the early stages of becoming established. Both spouses in a farming operation are encou raged to join and learn. Fifty-five farm business groups offered assistance over the past year to almost 700 Manitoba farm famil ies. Despite recent declines in farm land values, farming is still a very capital intensive activity. Acquiring a land base can be the most difficult hurdle facing a young and be ginnin g farmer .

Retiring farmers wou ld sometimes be prepared to make concessions to assist the buyer who is often a dear relative. However, for many, the purchase price may represent some or all of their retirement fund. Such farmers would, we believe, be willing to consider selling to young farmers, acce pting payments over a time at a below-market rate of interest in exchange for a guarant ee of the purchase price by some third party. This is the premise behind our Farm Start Program.

Recent estima tes from Agriculture Canada and the Farm Credit Corporation tell us that private individuals account for between 10 and 20 percent of the long­ term credit extended to Canadian farmers. However, in Man itoba, less than 7 percent of the long-term farm credit outsta nding is financed by private individuals. lt is our belief that through the amendments now proposed, young and beginning Manitoba farmers will have available to them another source of mortgage cred it, and at lower than prevailing market rates.

The lif e cycle of the family farm begins with the beginning farmer trying to accu mula te the necessary capital to become established in farming and ends with the retiring farmer, withdrawing labour , management and capital from the farm business. The high capital investment required to enter farming, along with the double-digit interest rates, has made it increasingly di fficult for the young beginning farmer to become establis hed in his or her chosen occupation. At the other end of the family-farm cycle, is the retiring farmer who is divesting or selling his or her life's ac cumula ted assets.

These assets often are the primary or only source of retirement income and, therefore, the retiring farmer cannot afford to invest the proceeds where there is potential of losing part or all of his or his lifesavings. If part or all of this risk of loss is removed, a sign ificant numb er of retiring farmers or those leaving agriculture would be willing to sell their farms to young beginning farmers, taking back a mortgage with a lower in terest rate than is available from private and government lending institutions. Mr. Deputy Speaker, MACC will be the vehicle by which this risk will be removed or reduced.

MACC will provi de a gua rantee to the retiring farmer, the vendor, assuring him or her of rece iving the mortgage payments with the provision that the rate of interest to the purchaser or the beginning farmer is more favourable 788 than available elsewhere. This will reduce the start-up costs to the beginning farmer, remove the risk of mortgage payment default to the retiring farmer, thus facilitating the inter-generational transfer of farms. The amendments proposed, Sir, as members can see, are relatively simple and straighforwar d. A new

section is added to The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act, authorizing the corporation to guarantee losses sustained by individual lenders, as well as banks and approved lending institutions, as is presently the case. A loan must be for one of the purposes outlined in

Section 27 of the act, which purposes are generally the purchase and/or improvement of land, the purchase of livestock or farm machinery, and the consolidation of existing debt. The amendment makes loans authorized under the Farm Start Program subject to Sections 28, 29 and 30 of the existing act, as is presently the case, where MACC guarant ees a loan made by a bank or approved lending institution. The guarantee will not become effect ive following the purchaser's default until the vendor has itself taken all reasonable measures and procedures to enforce collection.

Without MACC's approval, the vendor may not alter the terms or conditions of the guaranteed loan or do anything to alter the liability of the borrowers. Where a loan guarantee is paid out, MACC becomes subr ogated to all the rights which the vendor formally possessed, in order to colle ct on the guaranteed loan. MACC's Board of Directors and the Lieutenant­ Governor -in-Council are given additional regulation­ making power, in order to allow them to legally prescribe the terms and conditions for loans to be gu aranteed under the Farm Start Program.

Finally, the annual reporting date for the corporation is changed from June to September of each year. While all the programmatic details of Farm Start Program have not yet been final ized by staff, I wish to briefly describe for members of this House, the salient features of its operation as they are presently envisaged. To be eligible for a gu aranteed loan under the Farm Start Program, a potential purchaser must be 18 years of age or old er, a Canadian citizen or landed immi grant residing in Manitoba. The purchaser must have, or intend to make farming his or her principal occupa tion.

At the time of the application, the purchasing farmer's net worth cannot exceed $1 85,000.00. As is the case for all other MACC applicants, an asse ssment will be done and the farming operation must be shown to be potentially viable. The vendor of the farm unit being sold must have been personally involved in its active operation. The maximum loan amount under the guaranteed program is $200,000, with the full amount of the principal guaranteed.

An MACC direct loan may be required in conjunction with a gu aranteed loan, however the maximum amount of the guaranteed loan and direct loan to the same individual borrower cannot exceed the $200,000 limit. Loans within the $200,000 limit may not exceed 80 percent of the appraised value of the security taken for the loan, nor can the purchase price exceed MACC's appraised value for the property. Where there is a direct loan made in conjunction with the guaranteed loan, MACC will take a first mortgage on the land purchas ed. Assets, such as machinery and livestock, may also be

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 used as security, but collateral secu rity will not be taken from anyone other than the applicant or the purcha ser and no second mortgages will be taken. Where there is not an MACC direct loan in conjunction with a guaranteed loan, the vendor will hold the first mortgage, but will provide MACC with a registrable transfer of mortgage to be used in the event of default and subrogation. Mortgage payments will be made by the purchaser farmer to MACC, so that payments can be monitored by the guarantor. In turn, MACC will make payments to the retiring farmer or the vendor.

In the event that the retiring farmer requires a lump sum immedia tely, in order to pay off debt oblig ations on the property being sold or to relocate, the applicant purch aser may arrange for an appropriate combination of di rect and guar anteed loans. The interest rate charged by the vendor must be fixed for the full term of the loan; as well, the interest rate charged on the purchase price of the farm unit must represent a sig nificant concession to the purchaser in order for the vendor to acquire the security of the loan guarantee.

The young farmer rebate will continue to be available to borrowers who take out a direct loan in conjunction with a guarant eed loan, further enhancing the financial benefits to such purchasers. Where the purcha ser defaults on loan payments, prior to any foreclosure action being initiated, the vendor will have the option of paying out MACC, terminating the guarantee, and re-acquiring the property.

Among the potential benefits of the Farm Start Program are the following: firstly , the expansion of reasonably priced, long-term credit available to young and beginning farmers; second ly, lower start-up costs to new entrants as a result of interest rates below market rates; third ly, provi ding retiring farmers the opportunity to retain a secure investment in agriculture; and fourth ly, the retention of capital generated by the farm sector within the farm sector. I certainly hope that members of the House will participate and will provide the necessary approval for this legislation.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to thank the Minister for introducing some details here today. I move, seconded by the Member for Ste. Rose, that we adjourn further debate. MOTION presented and carried. MADAM SPEAKER: On the Debate on Second Readings on the proposed motion of the Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture, Bill No. 4, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FIND LAY: Stand. HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, first on a matter of House Business it is our intent to call the Commit tee 789 of Public Utilities and Natural Resources next Tuesday to consider the report of CEDF. Moose Lake Loggers and Channel Area Loggers have had discussions with the Opposition House Leader and we're agreed that those reviews will take place on Tuesday next. There will be no Standing Comm ittee meetings this Thursda y, the commit tee having fin ished Publ ic Accounts previously. Madam Speaker, I move . . .

MADAM SPEAKER: Before the Honourable Min ister makes his motion, I would just like to make a comment to the House about the sound system. lt seems that it's temporarily fixed. There's been some confusion with the public about the process and I just want to clarify that we have had audio difficulties, that we have not tried to censor question period in any way whats oever, whether it be questions or answers and, hopefully, as the day proceeds then tomorr ow the sound system will be back in order. I hope that's clear for all those in the public who are interested in our proceed ings in an ongoing basis.

The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COW AN: Yes, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Municipal Affairs that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, the Estima tes for Agriculture in the House and the Hig hways and Transportation in the Comm ittee Room.

MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transporta tion. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSP ORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Comm ittee will come to order. I think we have a quorum, so we'll begin. We are on Item 3., Resolution No. 92, 3.(

a) Planning and Design. Does the Mi nis ter wish to make a statement? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Morris on 3.(a). There's going to be lots of questions on Planning and Design. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Mi nis ter if he could - and maybe he's covered this previously - but I would like to know what the present plan is with respect to the twinning of Highw ay 75. Can the Minis ter give me some indication whether the ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: The present plan, Mr. Chairman, is the completion of the paving to St. Agathe which is in the program. There is some acquisition and survey

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 plans that are being completed for the next sections of 75 and discussions with the City of Winnipeg - that's south of St. Agathe - and there are currently discussions going on with the City of Winnipeg for the

section that ties in the twinning portion with Pembina Highway, and that is taking place at the present time . MR. C. MANNESS: Can the Minister tell me why Highway 75 is not proceeding posthaste? Why is not some commitment being made to complete the final stretch, well not even the final stretch, the next stretch from St. Agathe to Morris within the next two years? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, it's obvious . I don't have the cumulative amount spent on that highway up to this point, but it's a question of overall availability of dollars and priorities .

I think it's quite evident from the budget that there are a lot of demands placed on the Highways budget , other major projects taking place, and certainly from that perspective , it's not possible to proceed any faster than we are . We have spent significant sums of money in each of the last five years on Highway 75, perhaps not as much as the member would like to see but certainly significant sums , as high as $7 million or so in some years and as low as $2 million or $3 million in other years . MR. C.

MANNESS: I'm a little bit troubled by the choice of words that the Minister uses when he says, not as much money is spent on the road as I might like to see. Let the Minister know that indeed it's just not to serv ice the constituents of Morris. That's a major trunk highway servicing large numbers of Manitobans, indeed large numbers of people who reside in Winnipeg who wish to travel due south on occasion. I would ask the Minister whether or not he has any time frame in mind with respect to the completion of the Winnipeg to Morris portion. Does he have any idea as to when that might be completed? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Certainly there are other major routes that have more traffic than this particular road . So in terms of answering the statements made by the Member for Morris that it is a major highway , I don't disagree that it is a major highway . That is why we've put some $14 million into that project over the last few years. That is why we've also undertaken to resurface a substantial portion south of Morris that was subject to hydroplaning and some unsafe conditions , it was felt, so it is being redone this year as well.

So there has been a substantial commitment and effort made to improve that particular major highway . But at the present time , because of other major projects that are proceeding such as the twinning of Highway No. 1, particularly west , surfacing of 101 and 100, the Perimeter, which also becomes part of the TransCanada Highway system, it's in terrible shape in many areas and must be done; the efforts that we're putting in on Highway 44 now to begin twinning on that particular road all mean that we're spreading ourselves a little thinner and , therefore, cannot put as much of a commitment.

So I can't give a time frame . The acquisition, as I said, plans have been proceeding but not at the same rate that they may have, had we had the money to do the construction, but we have not cancelled them. 790 MR. C. MANNESS: I would ask the Minister whether it's standard practice not to either invite or at least to inform the local member as to when Planning and Design takes out their existing engineered plan to a local area to discuss with the affected landowners the proposed route . Is it a general decision not to inform the local representative so that he or she may also be in attendance at that gathering?

HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well if there 's a public meeting, usually everyone is invited to attend and notices are made . I understand that there have been visitations to the landowners but not a public meeting . All of the owners were invited to that initial meeting . It wasn't a general public meeting . That is to make the initial

definitions of the plan, and there would be subsequent meetings later that the public generally would be able to make comment on. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman , we're discussing Planning and Design . Can the Minister at all indicate whether the department is any closer to being able to indicate to the Morris Chamber of Commerce as to how Highway 75 in time will proceed through the town of Morris? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , insofar as the area in Morris, specifically, that is in a subsequent

section of design because the next

section would take it up to 205. So it would not go all the way to Morris. So really we're talking about another phase yet and we haven't got to that stage other than to advise the mayor and councillors that did meet with the deputy and Min ister to discuss this matter. We're advised that it would be a number of years and that we could not give them a definitive answer insofar as whether there would be a by-pass around Morris. Probably initially it would go through, but this would be looked at, at a time when it became more imminent that the work would be undertaken .

But we still have another phase to go, up to 205 before that would take place. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'd ask the Minister if he really believes that's a fair way of handling a situation like this . Obviously , some day the highway will be totally twinned to Morris, and there will have to be a decision made as to how it's either going to proceed through the town or around .

Can he tell me what possible set of circumstances might arise so as to cause any decision that might be made today , with respect to a proposed route, to cause that decision to be reversed and to, therefore , cause a change in the routing pattern that maybe could be decided today and allow that community to plan toward a future , realizing that there are many decisions that are dependent upon the route of the highway? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairma n, I guess what the member is suggesting is that it would be ideal to have all of the plans for future highway development in the province, no matter how far along the way they might be from now, outlined so that local communities could plan their land use in those areas . Obviously, that would be ideal.

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 However , we cannot do that with the Morris situation anymore than we could with the Virden where the Chamber of Commerce and the community , the council there are making representation regularly , asking whether a route has been decided and so on and saying they want to be a part of that planning process . We have consistently said when we get to that decision , when we are at the point that design has to be undertaken in that area that we will ensure that they have all of the input that they want into the decisions .

In the same way, we would do that and we have made that comm itment to the municipalities , to the mayo r and to the Chamber of Commerce at Morris. It's a question of priorities and where the staff are putting their time . There are a number of other major projects that are under way at the present time . Since we don 't project that would take place for at least five years from now, i t seems rat her prematur e to g et involved in t hat process. As I sai d b efore, you have to draw the line somewhere . We can't ju st p rovide all of these plans for every future route that might be requ ired well into the future.

It's just not poss ible . MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairma n, the Min ister has given me the rationale for his view and I accept it. Can he tell me whether the departm ent has a preference or a specific proposal with respect to that part of the route that goes through St. Norbert crossing the LaSalle River which, I take from the Minister 's answers, is being discussed in some detail with the City of Winnipeg at this time ? If he does have that proposed route , can he share it with me? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Since this is a city responsibility in that area and there are negotiations being undertaken to have the province build that portion of the road and have the maintenance continued by the City of Winnipeg in the future, the negotiations involving trade-offs on other routes that the province presently has jurisdiction over and which we would like to have turned over to the city. Those kinds of negotiations and proposals are being formulated .

We have not gotten to the stage yet of being able to say definitively what the pre ferred route across the LaSalle River would be, but the city has some plans on that. They have done some preliminary work. As well, my understanding is that there have been some consultant studies in that area previously done, and they will also be plugged into the planning process there . There will be some difficulties encountered but they have not been worked out as yet.

I would just say that if an agreement can be reached , that particular connection would probably , in my mind , be the highest priority on 75 as opposed to going further immediately , and that's another complicating factor in terms of getting on with the twinning . That

section should really be done, I believe, first . MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minis ter might give us an update on some of the roads in my area. On 250, I wonder if they could bring us up-t o­ date on where we stand with acquisition of right-o f­ way from No. 16 north of 45. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No. 16 is the . 791 MR. D. BLAKE: Highway 250 from 16 is 45. MR. CHAIRMAN : I am just wondering if the mem ber would wait. 8.(

e) is Acquisitions , etc . We are presently dealing with Planning and Design. HON. J. PLOHMAN: It' s okay. Usually . MR. D. BLAKE: No, this is under Plann ing and Design. The road is under planning and design now. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Usually under Planning and Design we discuss various stages of plann ing for highways, and this can be done eithe r u nder 8., Con struction, or Planning and Design . MR. CHAIRMAN: I see. The Minister of Highways . HON. J. PLOHM AN: We have progress charts on acq uisiti on for various roads that we may be ab le to obtain for the next sitting . We won 't have a lot of tim e yet tod ay.

We don't have the exac t prog ress of that acquisition but , certainly, there has been no effort to dow ngrade the impor tance of getti ng that propert y acqu ired and the work is ongoing in the proces s at the presen t time. MR. D. BLAKE: The pro gress chart would also show 354 and 355, wha t's happ ening the re? HON. J. PLOHMAN: 354 , 355 in that same area , as well as 250? MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, in the area .

Highway 262 south - that's the old highway, the old No. 10 that runs south of Minnedosa parallel to No. 10 some six miles west, or east rathe r - that roa d i s an asphalt surface road but in very bad condition . That road I thin k has been surveyed , I don't know , five or six times with stakes , and it's being done aga in. When I ques tioned the boys on it, they said, well , it was done in imperial , now we have to do it in metric . HON. J. PLOHMAN: You're kidding! MR. D.

BLAKE: But there are certainly higher priorities on roads other than redoing that one, although what happens on that one , the truck traffic, the surface of the road is in such a state that the trucks are just continually - you can barely hang on to the steering wheel and stay in the cab . So what happens, the grai n truckers move over to a municipal road that runs parallel and , of course , in adverse weather conditions, they are knock ing the municipal road into a pretty bad sta te of disrepai r.

I'm just wondering , the Highways Department in Minnedosa tell me that the reason they would like to see that road done ahead of some of the others is that the maintenance costs are very high in patching. I travel the roa d quite a bit and even with a car it's quite rough and I can imagine what it does to someone in a three ­ ton truck with a load of grain or a small car with a short wheel base . I'm just wonder ing what priority a road like that might have over a new-grade; I'm thinking of 250 , that's in desperate need of being refinished from Newdale to Sandy Lake.

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, relative to 250, 254 and some of those other major PR's we have dis cussed in the past, this would not have nearly the same priority and I think that's been reflected in the efforts to continue major projects on those other routes each year because they are a much higher prio rity. This one has been in the program for some years and has not been proceeded with on a priority basis in the same way that the work is being done on such major PR's like 250. So it would have much lower prio rity .

Really, it's not the major route any longer; High way 10 would be the major route there and receives most of the traffic, obviously. Because of that, 262 would not be as high a prio rity. MR. D. BLAKE: That leads me to the question of the priority of 466 from No. 16 into the villa ge of Franklin. I think the Min ister mentioned that was in the program this year. I realize it's an access road. HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt's part of the paving program MR. D. BLAKE: From the Yellowhead route? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. lt's being done at the same time for efficiency purposes. MR. D.

BLAKE: There's an elevator in there and I realize it would be nice for the farmers to drive in on a little better road than they've got, but it's in about the same position as 262 and doesn't handle that much traffic. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to take you back on the question of the Member for Morris with regard to Pembina Hig hway, from about Rue des Trappis tes to the city limits south, the

section inside the city that you're dealing with; can you explain again just at what point the negotiations are? lt's my understanding the City has a formal request before the province to undertake four-laning of that

section of highwa y. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, we met with the City last October and rece ived, just previous to that, a response to a proposal that had been made to the City a couple of years before, in response to theirs initia lly. So this has been going back and forth a couple of times and we are in the process of determining what our position should be in response to the City's latest proposal, and have not final ized that as yet.

But I can tell you that the proposal the City put forward was very much beneficial to the City and much more expensive to the province in terms of a trade-off and therefore we will have to have some movement there. We expressed that to the City delegation at the Urban Affairs meeting that was held about a week or two ago. So we were in the process of putting forward an alternate proposal to the City and do not have that quite final ized as yet. MR. J. ERNST: To the Min ister, Mr. Chairman.

What's the rationale for determining whose jurisd iction a piece 792 of roadway is? lt appears to me that, for ins tance, Portage Avenue west inside the city limits is, in fact , a provincial respon sibili ty from the Perimeter to Heading ley; and yet, presumably Pembina Highway, from the Perimeter Highw ay to the city limit is not. Can you tell me how that's determined? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm sure there must be some his tory involved in why those decisions were made. I'm advised, Mr.

Chairman, that these decisions were made in the Sixties, when Metro was set up there and the Deputy Min ister at present was probably involved in some of those decisions. But there are a number of anomalies that we would like to clear up and that's why we're trying to utili ze this opportunity on Pembina Hig hway, to indeed clear some of those up and turn them back to the Ci ty, where they are more appropriately dealt with, I would think. MR. J. ERNST: On a different subject, Mr. Chairman, the northeast "unfinished"

section of the Perimeter High way; can you tell me where that is in the long­ range planning? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I had mentioned this the other day when that question was asked by the Member for River East, I believe. We had mentioned that we were in the process of getting Treasury Board approval for the consultant to be appointed. A provision was placed in the Budget last year; it's in carry-over to have a consultant appointed to determine the best route and the precise requirements for future tie-in of the Perimeter Hi ghway in that area. MR. J.

ERNST: Presumably then, the land acquisition is limi ted, if non-existent? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, there is some acquisition as we went over the other night on this matter; some of the land was acquired when the Perimeter was built, but it was only a general basic right-of-way. lt did not take into consideration the additional requirements for right-of-way and the detailed survey plans were not comple ted at tha t time, so it wasn't a precise determination of the amount of land required. This will give us that information, so we can make decisions on futur e ac quisition. MR. J.

ERNST: Do you have a projected time line on these things? I appreciate it's difficult, dependent on funding and everything else, but is there an antici pated time line, as it were, to see construction take place? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we have had cert ain circums tances that have occurred in the past, where cha nges have been made in provincial jurisdiction or in city jurisdiction, where there perhaps should have been more consultation and that is one of the reasons it will take a little bit longer in this particular case because we want to ensure that the City of Winnipeg has people on the study team and the municip alties that will be affected are also involved. We anticipate at the present time that to get the functional plan completed with thes e consulta nts, it would take approximately to the end of the fiscal year; and then

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 we will have to react to that internal ly, as to how quickly we should proceed with the kinds of recommendations that are made in that report. MR. J. ERNST: If everything went according to Hoyle, would a five-year time limit be . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe that could be conceivable. lt would seem that we would have to determine the priority for completing that ins ofar as construction is concerned. lt would be quite an expensive project with overpasses requir ed for the relatively short dis tance and that means it would be consid ered in terms of the other priorities that we have.

In terms of moving forward with the acquisition, we could do that within the next year or two. MR. J. ERNST: Mr.

Chairman, I have a concern that when major transportation projects are built - and we are seeing it happen more and more frequently all the time - that when they are built in anticipation of development, as opposed to after development has occurred, they are much easier to put in and people then can recognize the inherent problems - being adjacent to a major transportation route - where it comes after the fact, after development has taken place and that's what's occurri ng in the east end of Transcona at the moment, that development is occurring right up close to that hig hway. it's going to make it a lot more difficult to complete that

section of the Perimeter, if you have all kinds of people running around scream ing, "We want noise attenuation barriers," and/or whatever else and/or not having the hig hway at all. So it seems to make some sense to put it in first, if at all possible. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Charleswood raises a very good point. Obvious ly, there is a balance as to how far you can go ahead with major expenditures at any particular time.

That is why we felt it was necessary to go forward now or last year in making the preparations and plans for identifying the route and acquiring the land before there is more extensive development in that area. lt perhaps was left a little bit too long, but it's something that we're addressing at the present time. We will build in, as part of the studie"6C5ind of requirements for nois e barriers in those areas where it is already built up, and the responsibility would be part of our construction program at that time.

In other areas, where they're not built up, to identify where noise barriers may be necessary as part of a developer's costs in those areas, development plans, where they should be included. So that will be part of the function of the studies that will take place. MR. J. ERNST: One further qu estion in that regard, has the department considered identifying approximate rights-of-way so that those who look to that area for their accommodation might be able to determine that, in fact , there is a potential hig hway going to go through? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: That's precisely what this functional study is all about, and that's why we'r e doing it now. There was some righ t-of-way protected 793 previous ly, but that's why we're doing the study now, to determine exactly what will be required so we can acquire and protect that right-of-way and make it known to future planners and developers. MR. J. ERNST: I was less concerned about the planners and developers and the precise right-of-way than I was in terms of the general right-of-way and of somebody going out in that area to buy a home.

If they go out there to buy a home and see a nice piece of grass and the real estate salesman happens to tell them that it's going to be a park, they don't check - and very often, they don't unfortunately - then all of a sudden, when a hig hway appears, they get all excited and I don't blame them. Has the department considered putting up a sign in the general area of the right-of-way - we have a general right-of-way, I gather from earlier questions - putting up a sign that says "Future Perimeter Hig hway" or something along that line so that at least it's known to people and they don't get ... HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we'll look into the feasibility of doing that. I will look into the feasibility of following up on that suggestion. MR. J. ERNST: Okay, thank you. Yesterday we talked briefly about a couple of highw ays in our Whiteshell Provincial Park area, which we could talk about either under Planning or under Construction. Now that we're on Planning, maybe I can ask the quest ion. Firstly , High way 307 which is the north Perimeter route from Seven Sisters to Rennie, are there any planned improvements on that

section of roadway? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we do have two projects in the carry-over program for the 19 86-87 year, as lis ted in the program that the members received . From Whiteshell Provincial Park gate to the Rennie River, there are 6.4 miles of location study, survey and design that is being undertaken this year, as well as from PTH 11 to Whiteshell Provincial Park gate, west side, 8.3 miles of acquisition of right -of-way. As I explained the other day when we were discussing the process, the survey and design is the first step in the process and then the acquisition of right-of-way.

So these are in the first and second stages of approval. The next approval for the sect ion from PTH 11 to the Whiteshell Provincial Park gate would be for the construction or grading job. The other section, from Whiteshell Park gate to Rennie River would be subject to acquisition next year, if it's completed this year. MR. J. ERNST: Could the Mini ster advise what kind of work this is antici pated in? I'm talking on four-lane, two-lane, widen shoulders, that kind of thing, the replacement, for ins tance, of the existing roadbed widened or something along that line. Is that . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I understand there are a lot of drai nage problems in that area on the one section, PTH 11 to the gate, and it may compl icate matters there, but there is no intention of course to put a four-lane facility in there. The traffic count east of PTH 11 , it's quite high, up to 860 average daily traffic

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 and, in other sections, as low as 200 to 600. So that is significant traffic in some of the areas, but it would certainly not warrant a four-lane road. MR. J. ERNST: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. The concern I have is this. That roadway for four or five months during the summer carries an inord inate amount of traffic on a couple of peak period times, Friday night, Saturday morning and Sunday night primarily, very high traffic volumes of people commuting to and from their cottages in that area.

The shoulders on that road are not very good in terms of pulling off if you have a flat tire or car trouble , those kinds of things. I have been concerned for a long time and an organization that I belong to has had a great concern for a long time that somebody's going to get killed along there just by not being able to get off the road to either cond uct tire repairs or service their vehicle. My concern would be that at some point, given the great volume of people there, that some widening of that road or at least greater shoulders could occur. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That, Mr. Chairman, is precisely what would happen.

There's no question that the shoulders would be widened. I'm not certain as to the exact condition of the road and the pavement as it exists at the present time as to whether the road would have to be reconstructed comp letely, but obviously widening would be one of the major purposes of the work that's being undertaken at the present time to provide a safer road way, as well as one that will stand up longer because of support from wider shoulders. So that would be a major function of the upgrad ing. MR. J. ERNST: That's fine for the price that is listed.

Is it antici pated to continue with that kind of a program into the future, so that - the problem isn't just in the locations described, Mr. Minis ter. The problem is almost throughout the whole length of the roadway, which is about maybe 70 miles, 80 miles, some thing like that. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, it is quite an extensive hig hway. There are a lot of miles there, and we will obviously give attention to those areas that have the heaviest traffic first, and then move to upgrade the others. I'm not certain when this was last constructed or reconstructed, and it is probably many years.

There may be some sections that have been done and obviously that would assist us there. There will be qui te an extensive amount of money have to be spent on that project overall, if we were to complete the whole extent of the road, and it will have to be considered in terms of priorities overall in the province. As I indicated the other day, we have demands and plans for some $300 million worth of roads each year and we can only do $80 million or $90 million worth. So it's not an easy problem and we can't address all the priorities, however imp ortant they each may be.

I appreciate the member bringing this particular road to my attention and we'll certainly give it some extra attention as a result of this discussion tod ay. MR. J. ERNST: I thank the Mi nis ter for that, Mr. Chairman.

That's welcome news. 794 One other consideration that might be given is that ins tead of considering having to widen the entire road way, whether the possibil ity exists that from time to time along the roadway, there could be turnout areas or widened shoulder areas where people could pull their vehicles off in order to get out of the stream of traffic, particularly those hauling large R.V . trailers and things of that nature. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, at the present time, in going over the three-year projections for planning for highway construct ion, the department has identified this road as requiring upgrading throughout its extent, to the tune of some probably $15 million or $20 million. Cost would be the limiting factor. I think that the member makes a good suggestion in that we should be considering other ways, inno vative ways of providing some means of passing in some of the straighter sections. Obviou sly, there are a lot of curves.

The vertical align ment is bad and it may be that because of the extent of upgrading required if we were to do the whole length of the road, and therefore because the cost would be prohibitive, that we should not wait for that but to do some other imp rovements that would alleviate the greatest problems. I think that suggestion is worthwhile and I can assure the member that we will follow up on that, particularly for this road. Unique circu mstances. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Another sect ion of roadway in that vicinity is Highway 44, Rennie to West Hawk Lake, which is presently promoted by Tourism as a scenic route or an alternate to the No. 1 Hig hway. That

section of roadway is as bad, or worse, than Hig hway 307. Again, it's narrow; it's similar in terrain to the countryside that 307 traverses as well. Is there conside ration to widening or , again, improvements to that road? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The plan for over a few years, depending on priorities, would indic ate that we would be looking at the acquisition of right-of-way there - there is about 21 miles that the member is referring to - for grade widening and construction and paving in the future, again, approximately a $20 million project.

We will have to consider that in next year's program as to whether we should get started with that particular project. I noticed, though, from the traffic counts on that the portion of 44 east of PR 307, which is what the member is talking about, is only 191. Compared to come of the others that we've discussed in other areas on this hig hway, it's relatively low and that would mean that it would automatically get a lower priority than some of the other routes. MR. J. ERNST: I know why the traffic count was low . HON. J. PLOHMAN: That argument, Mr. Chairman, is one that we get.

An interesting point that the member raises, that if you drove on it, you'd know why the traffic count is so low. We find that all through the province people will say after being told what the traffic count is, well, we know why that is, because of the condition and if you upgraded that road, there would be much

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 more traffic. than there is at the present time. Unfortunat ely , that's di fficult to project, so the department tends to work on existing traffic as opposed to projecti ons which may not be reliable. MR. J. ERNST: I understand that point and certainly the traffic, as I know it, doesn't begin to compare with 307, the kind of traffic that it takes. lt was more the image route again, the tourism-related aspects. You know, maybe Tourism can cough up a little money to enhance some of these roadways if they are going to plan on sending traffic down them.

One further question with regard to the No. 1 Hig hway from, I guess, a mile west of Falcon Lake to the Ontario border, or Lyons Lake, if you will, the portion that is not presently four-laned. Are there plans to four-lane that? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't believe we have that in the program plans. We will check that right now. lt's not one of the top priority sections at the present time. There's the

section west of Brandon that is being dealt with this year, a

section that was still two-laned in that area just west of Brandon. That is being proceeded with this year and we are also attempting to put some emphasis on resurfacing portions of the Trans-Canada, mainly in the Perimeter, and the Perimeter East. Then, as well, there is a major project of resurfacing around Oak Lake, a

section of the by-pass of Hig hway No. 1 there. So those are the priori ties on Hig hway No. 1 at this time. I see that the department has again put ttiat one forward for conside ration over the next three years or so and look at 2.5 miles there - probably $5 million to $6 million is the present projec tion. lt's in there but, again, not the highest priori ty. MR. J. ERNST: One final question.

The Perimeter Hig hway north in the vicinity of, I guess between No. 6 Hig hway south, it's fairly rough and what happens is highway trucks avoid using that and use ln kster Boulevard instead, which is an asphalt road and really not, in my view, conducive to carrying those kinds of truck rates of/or - no, I'm sorry, I got that mixed up - it's Saskatch ewan Avenue and Stur geon Road ins tead of using the Perimeter and ln kster Boulevard to get into the area north by the airport.

Is there some consideration of resurfacing that portion of the Perimeter Hig hway to maybe encourage truckers not to use Saskatchewan Avenue? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, we have, Mr. Chairman, undertaken some major work on the Perimeter in the last couple years, and we are continuing it this year. I think we have two major projects. We did one

section of the north Perimeter which has the highe st truck traffic, and traffic generally. That was com pleted last year with the barrier. We are also doing a

section between Hig hway No. 2 and Waverley which is also heavily travelled, and the Wilkes to Roblin Boulevard area which is also in the program. Those are the hig hest priorities and then we'll follow up with other sections. We realize that there are a numb er of sections of the Perimeter that need redoing, but we certainly are putting, I think, a sizeable amount of our resources into it. 795 MR. J. ERNST: I appreciate that; I knew those were under way. The

section I am refi:ming to is between Saskatchewan and ln kster Boulevard. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't think, Mr. Chairman, that

section has been programmed at this time, but we will look at that in terms of the other priorities on the Perimeter in light of the Member for Charleswood 's comments. MR. J. ERNST: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman, as long as the department and the Minis ter are aware that there are other factors causing the concern other than necessarily the exact condition of the pavement. The alternate route creates a lot of difficulties because it sends a lot of heavy trucks through Crestview, a residential neighbourhoo d on the south side of Saskatchewan Avenue.

Even though it was built as a regional street under the old terminology in the city and is a part-time truck route, that traffic still creates some difficulties for the homes that are built along it, and if they can be contained on the Perimeter Hig hway so much the better. lt's the choice of the driver, I appreciate, but there would be other problems too, I think, in sending those trucks down Sturgeon Road over a period of time as well, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought the Member for Charleswood was going to cover it all the way to 4:30.

I have a few questions I want to raise in terms of Planning and Desig n. When the department expands or extends a PR road, what is the criteria that is being used? Tq make it easier, I am talking of extension of the 302 from No. 12 down to Marchand. HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . understand what criteria is used in taking over a municipal road as a provincial road? MR. A. DRIEDGER: Is it strictly political or is it based on municipal involvement or is it based on traffic? HO N. J. PLOHNIAN: They are pretty well non-existent at the present time, Mr. Chairman, no matter where they are located. I can tell you that.

We have not over MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, 302 was extended. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, we have not undertaken a lot o f them. There was one commitment made by the former Min ister, I believe, on 302 in 19 82 or'83, and it was honoured and we have taken that over. At that time, the procedure was somewhat different in that the Mi nis ter simply made the decision on the basis of representation made to him by the municip alities and perhaps the MLA or whatever the case may be. A MEMBER: Strong Minis ter. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That may be, although it did cost the province a lot of money. The Member for Morris

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 can talk about strong Ministers, but you have to consider the fact that every time a decision like that is made, there are many maintenance dollars and construction dollars required to follow up on tho se decisions which are quite easy to make in isolation.

So we have taken that position that it's important to understand the implications of taking over sections of road and not to make those decisions in isolation from the actual maintenance and upgrading costs and demands and pressures that will be put on the department by MLA's and by municipalities as soon as the road is taken over to upgrade it and pave it and everything else .

So, generally speaking, interconnections with other provincial road s connecting to communities of a certain size, and there are a number of other criteria that have been established and would be followed if it meets those criteria - major traffic gene rators in the area, a provincial park that may co ntr ibute to traffic there as opposed to a municipal development or park . All of those things contribute to the final decision but, as I said earlier, we have been very r~luctant to add miles to the PR system and are pretty well limiting it to tradeoffs where we take over a road , we want to give up some road.

I think tha t's a responsible way to do it considering the fact tha t we have all of the pressures that we do have oh our budget. MR. A. DRIEDdER : .So what the Minister, in a sense , is saying, he . is criticizing the previous Minister of Highways that made the decision to extend 302 and is ind icating that I.he criteria has changed ~ow and it's virtually impossible to get an extension of a PR road at the present time? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman , I am not criticizing the previous Minister; I am saying ttiat we have changed the policy on the basis of what we feel are realistic circumst~nces at the present time . It wasn't just the previous Minister who used that process ; it was other Ministers who added miles in previous governments to the road system too. As I _said, I think in reviewing it, the program, the policy that we havi:J now is much more realistic.

As a matter of fact, if it does meet all of the criteria, the final decision is not made until Estimates time at which time the Estimates are presented with the dollars for that additional piece of road and the decision is made at that time by Cabinet whether to add or not. I again thin k that's a responsible way to do it. It does not reflect on previous ways of doing things; I think it reflects current realities in terms of the number of miles under our responsibility. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30 p.m ., it's time for Private Members' Hour. Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: This

section of the Committee of Supply is called to order. We have been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture on Item No. 3, Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. 796 The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS : Mr. Chairman, am I correct that the Minister was about to respond to my last question? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hon ourab le Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I think I would ask that the honourable member repeat it if he wouldn't mind from last night at 10 o'clock and we'll try and respond. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr.

Chairman, I think the Minister is trying to see if my memory is any better than his. The question that I was posing to the Minister was in regard to the - and if I repeat too much of what my last series of questions was I hope you'll indulge me - my question was regarding the direction that MACC is moving in. It seems to me that MACC is becoming a vehicle whereby plans, aid programs to the farm community are being delivered on a more regular

schedule ; we see more of it under the Farm Start Program and that, in fact , might be a suitable program to be associated with MACC . But I was speaking in relationship to the Interest Rate Relief Program and the fact that we are now attracting a lot of applicants to MACC and a lot of those applicants are coming for reasons other than simply looking to an institution for funds.

There are also many .applicants out there that I'm aware of on a personal basis from their contacts who are interested in becoming clients of MACC because they see that as a future possibility of relief if the government institutes short-term relief programs such as was done in the last couple of years. That is not tq belittle the amount of money that was used or the fact that a program was brought in, but I really wonder if the ministry has laid out the guidelines and the future plans for MACC?

It seems to me that perhaps we've now had just about enough ad hoc changes in the MACC _ mandate and I would like to know what the plans, if any, the department has for MACC in terms of delivery of programs other than those that are related to strictly the financing of capital assets for agricultural endeavour? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, maybe the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose may want to elaborate a bit more on what he is referring to when he speaks about ad hoc and maybe he wishes to elaborate on what he believes in terms to identify the problem that he's speak ing about because , Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to know which of our programs that we've instituted in the farm com munity he considers ad hoc and that are just ad hockery. Mr. Chairman , we've heard in this Session requests from members opposite time and time again on two fronts, 1) to lower the deficit and saying the deficit is too high, control your spending, and on the other side saying, we want more money made available and make sure that you put more money available whether it's for health care, education, whether it's the farming community, wherever , those requests , if we totalled them up , Mr.

Chairman , our deficit would not be $500 million

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 a year, it would be much closer to $1 billion a year, Mr. Chairman . I, for one, we have been very flexible in terms of the corporations to try and meet the emerging needs of farmers as the crisis has deepened, unlike, Mr. Chairman, the national approach to this situation . Mr.

Chairman , just to give him an example, in November of 1984 we had a new Conservative Government, a new Federal Governmen t, that 10 Ministers of Agriculture of Canada , along with the Federal Minister of Agriculture made 12 recommendations - and I will only deal with one of them - to provide and complemen t provincial programming by a national operating loan guarantee program to top off and complement or replace for provinces that didn't have any operating loan guaran tee programs.

That recommendation was made and at that time the vast majority of Agriculture Ministers in this country were Conservative - they were not Liberal or from other political stripes - they were Conservative Ministers of Agriculture . Mr. Chairman, that one measure which would have, in fact, assisted many thousands of farmers across this country was rejected out of hand by the present administration. Mr. Chairman, I want to predict something ; that in light of the discussion that was undertaken by the Premiers last November in Halifax, a number of reviews began as a result of consultations.

I want to tell my honourable friends I believe that what will occu r we'll be back recommending that there be a national operating loan guarantee program because we haven't been able to recommend any1hing other than spinning our wheels and studying the situation. We had 12 concrete proposals for national action in November '84.

I venture to say that we will come around and make a full circle, although it will be two-and-a­ half to three years later , we'll probably end up recommending the same situation when it should have been acted on - and the recommendations were not only made from the Ministers of Agriculture but there was a consensus then - but all national financial institutions. In my meetings with all the banking and credit union people they said, yes, this is one aspect that should be put into place right across this country . So Mr.

Chairman , I want the honourable friend to clarify his remarks as to what is ad hockery and which program he is now saying we'd better get rid of. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, I identified the one program and that was the Interest Rate Relief Program . HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Interest Rate Relief Program was a commitment made in the 1981 election. It was a two-year program and applications have ended and the program is ended . All that is being administere d right now are the repayment schedul es under that program; the program is finished . MR. G.

CUMMINGS : The point that I was trying to get the Minister to address was the general direction of the corpo ration and whether or not these type s of programs are going to be an ongoing part of the corporation's mandate .

I made the poin t, and I believe I made it last night also, but perhaps I should make it a little more succinctly, that the Minister has referred 797 several times in this House to the growing number of people who want to be MACC clients and he has attributed reasons which I'll debate perh aps at another time - I don't want to get into that debate at this particular moment - but I'm suggesting that there are also a lot of people out there who would like to be client s of MACC because they have seen these types of programs added on and I'm asking a question in a very general way.

I don't want to debate federal issues this afternoon , and we can probably lead into that area if you wish. I'm an FCC client and can quite personally tell you that there's refinancing funds out there that have been at a fairly acceptable level and able to be achieved when MACC was unable to be in the mar ket to service the particul ar loans that I'm talki ng about . But the concern that I have is, what are the fut ure plans of the corporate body MACC and the policies that will evolve from that? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , I appreciate the honourable member's comments, but I want to indicate that there is no getting away from the question of deb ating federal and provincial issues. I say it for this reason : MACC 's manda te has been and has continued to be throughout the years to provide credit to young and beginning and older producers , but up to a certain limit , basically filling in the gaps where other institutions have not provided adequate credit , long-term stable credit . That 's really been the mandate of MACC .

We have not deviated from that mandate at all, whether it was during your colleague's years or during my term in office. That is the basic mandate of the corporation . But, Mr. Chairman, when you find a third of your applications or just about a third of your applications in this year coming from FCC clients and I'll tell you why - .75 percent to 1.5 percent differen ce in interest rates.

If you've got a $50,000 or $100,000 or close to $200,000 loan, you're going to think twice about whether you 're going to stay with a lender that's charging you 1 percent to 1.5 percent higher tha n what's available at a provincial lending agency. Tha t has been consistently prov ided throughout these last number of years. We don't go out and announce our rates every time they change and say we've lowered our rates. Our rates have consis tently shown that much difference. And right now, in terms of the number of applications approved , we're the only game in town in terms of long-term stable credi t, Mr.

Chairman. The Member for Arthur says that's a stupi d statement. Last year we appro ved over 700 loans; Farm Credit approved 120 loans. Mr. Chairman, they have far more staff in Manitoba. I'll repeat it as I did last night, they took $50 million more out of the agricultural economy last year in Manitoba than they put back in. Now is that leaders hip ? Is that support for the farm community? In terms of our mandate, we have stuck to our mandate historically, although we have had many requests to say why don 't you increase your limits of lend ing and go beyond? Mr.

Chairman , !'m also advised that, traditionally, FCC has provided about three times the lending activity of MACC in our own province; three tim es. Now they're roughly one-third and even below one-th ird the activity that we have had over the last number of years. We were up to over 2,000 loans in the last couple of years.

Wednesday, 11 June, 1986 They've dropped back to where I guess one would say they've almost shut their doors. Quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, that does concern us. It is a major concern, because we have trad ition ally held a certain clientele , group, in the corpora tion with the limits that we have put into place and that limit was increased about five or six years ago. I believe the Member for Arthur was Minister at the time . I believe the limit may have been increased somewhat , to $200,000 during his term. I think he might recall the lending limits . We brought them up.

But we're basically trying to separate and dovetai l the clients below the FCC clients in terms of the lending limits there . That's the mandate we've had and that's the mandate we're continuing on. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman , on that particular point, I think it should also be reme mbered that , given the last four years of decline that we have seen in the agricultural economy , your higher net worth farmers are not expanding at the same rate that they were.

I'm certainly prepa red to acknowledge the difference in interest rates , but you also have to acknowledge the difference in the net worth of the clients that you're talking about in terms of who would apply. Obviously , business sense would dictate that anyone wanting to borrow funds to get into agriculture would go at the best possible and most advantageous place . With the Young Farmer Rebate Program that was instituted under the Conservative adm inistration, obviously that's where young farmers would be directed and that's where I would encourage them to go.

But I still would like to hear a statement from the Minister as to what the stated mandate of MACC will be in terms of its actions and policies within the lending field in Manitoba. If I could expand on that a little bit, Mr. Minister, perhaps you could talk in terms of any anticipated changes in loan limits. Are there any anticipated changes in the Young Farmer Rebate Program? Those types of changes are what I'm referring to . HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the last question, there are no changes anticipated in either of the two programs that the member mentions.

I want to indicate to the honourable member that I guess one of the main reasons, and I've just been advised of that , one of the main reasons that we can attribute to having so many applications from FCC is that there are clients of FCC who are being held to a 14 percent interest rate for a five-year period, somewhere in that 14 percent range, and are being held over the term of their loan and, of course, are saying, hey, the rates are now at, I think, between 10.5 and 10.75, making it quite an attractive move if they can make it. They 're not refinancing those clients at the lower rate.

The mandate of the corporation is and will continue to be to provide long-term credit at stable interest rates to the farming community of Manitoba, as well as to provide programming on an ongoing basis to meet the changing credit dates that arise in the farm community, such as the Part-Time Farmers Program, which members on their side voted for and approved . I expect that they will want to vote for and approve the Farm 798 Start Program as well in terms of a new and innovative measure. That's gi