May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 985 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Tuesday, May 14, 1985 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: PRESENTING PETITIONS DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to present a petition bearing the names of some 7,843 students from junior and senior high schools across Alberta. The petition, which also bears the signatures of some teachers and a number of University of Alberta students, expresses the concern that the world is threatened by the possibility of nuclear destruc­ tion.

It also expresses the concern that when governments make decisions, there's a risk that the youth of today are often not considered seriously. Mr. Speaker, the petitioners humbly pray that the Alberta Legislative Assembly give favourable consideration to pol­ icies which will make Alberta a nuclear-free zone where nuclear weapons are not developed. It also asks that Alberta be made an active and positive force in achieving world disarmament. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. head: PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. MUSGROVE: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the report of the Standing Committee on Law and Regulations. Pursuant to the resolution of the Assembly dated November 9, 1984, the committee has had under consideration certain reports of the Institute of Law Research and Reform. Since receiving instructions from the Assembly, the committee has had 12 meetings, at which the institute presented information on the reports under consideration. The committee has approved the recommendations in many of the reports, with amendments in some cases, and it is suggested that one of the reports be referred back to it for further consideration.

The committee wishes to compliment the institute, and in particular Mr. Hurlburt, for the way in which the reports were presented. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm tabling the annual report of the supervisor of consumer credit for the year ended December 31, 1984. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to file with the Legislative Assembly the annual report of the department for March 31, 1983, as well as the annual report of the Heritage Scholarship Fund for March 31, 1984. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure to introduce to you, and through you to the members of this Legislative Assembly, a visiting travel writer from Utrecht, Holland, Mr. John Albert Boor. Mr. Boor is representing a number of Dutch travel and hunting magazines with a circulation of over 35,000 throughout Europe. It's his first ever visit to Canada, and he has been visiting in the province of Alberta for the last 13 days. He has just returned from an extremely successful spring bear hunt in the land of the mighty Peace. Accompanying him are Joyce Ingram, my executive assistant, and Ken Townsend from Travel Alberta.

I would ask them to stand and receive the welcome of this Assembly. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to introduce to you, and through you to the Assembly, four people in the public gallery. They are Mr. Cleveland, the father of Shauna Cleveland, chairperson and one of the petitioners; Mr. Jordan, the father of Julie Jordan, vice-chairman of the petition; Miss Jordan; and Mr. John Younie, a teacher at the Ardrossan school. I'd like them to rise and receive the recognition of the Legislature. MR.

SPEAKER: Mes collègues, c'est pour moi un plaisir et un honneur de présenter des élèves de l'école Rio Terrace dans mon circonscription. Presque tous les élèves de Rio Terrace peuvent parler français. It's an honour for me to introduce to hon. members a group of students from the Rio Terrace school in my constituency. Most of the students in Rio Terrace are able to speak French, as I have observed on visiting the school. They are accompanied by Mrs. Millions, Mrs. Chase, and Miss Chamberland. I would ask them to stand so that they may be recognized and welcomed by the House. MR. PAHL: Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, 26 exchange students who are visiting Edith Rogers school in the constituency of Edmonton Mill Woods from École Jacques Rousseau in Longueil, Quebec. They are accom­ panied by Nicole MacDonald from Edith Rogers school, and by Ms Marie-Lise Aubertin and Ms Louise Aubut from the École Jacques Rousseau. They are in the public gallery, and I would ask them to rise. Simply to recognize the fluency of the Speaker in two languages, I would like to say to them: je veux donner une chaleureuse bienvenue chez nous en Alberta. MR.

DROBOT: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, 17 grades 5 and 6 students from the Mallaig school. They are seated in the public gallery and are accompanied by their teacher, Thérèse Viel, and parent Irene Christensen. I would like them now to rise and receive the welcome of this Assembly. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, it's a real pleasure for me to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, 19 enthusiastic and bright-eyed grade 6 students from Ryley school in the Vegreville constituency. They are accompanied today by their teacher, Mrs.

Pepper, and parent Mrs. Bonham. [as submitted]

986 ALBERTA HANSARD May 14, 1985 I would ask them to rise and be recognized. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD University of Calgary PCB Spill MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the Minister of the Environment about his favourite topic, PCBs. In regard to the recent University of Calgary spill site, is it true that PCBs in a concentration of over 6,000 parts per million have been discovered in a drain which leads from the pump house to the Bow River? MR. BRADLEY: Mr.

Speaker, specifically, the information relating to the levels which were found at the site at the University of Calgary has been released by news releases to the media, which confirm the sampling the department has undertaken. With regard to the specific as to whether the drain leads to the Bow River, that has not yet been confirmed by my department. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. Is the minister saying, then, that he is unaware, after he has put out a release, whether the stream does lead to the Bow River? He's not sure of this at this point? MR. BRADLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the department is aware that there is a drain in the pump house facility. They have requested information from the university with regard to the design of the drain, as to its location and where it ends up. As of today I've not received advice from the department as to that specific in their investigation. I think I relayed to the House that the matter with regard to the spill at the University at Calgary is under investigation. I have not yet received the final report of the department on this matter. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. If there's a drain there, I think we have a pretty good idea.

But as a precaution, have the minister's officials taken samples of the water in the river near the drain, and if so, will he table those results as soon as possible? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, it has not been confirmed that, in fact, the drain goes into the Bow River. MR. MARTIN: I take it from that that there's been no precaution. There's been no sampling of the river at this particular time. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, we'll have to confirm whether or not the drain, in fact, drains into the Bow River. That has not yet been confirmed. MR.

MARTIN: I wonder if the minister could tell us how long it's going to take to figure out whether a drain goes into the river: weeks, months, years? I'm serious. It seems to me this drain is a pretty important issue. My question is: how long is it going to take to know a simple thing like whether a drain is going into the river? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I've advised the House that the matter is under investigation by the department. They've asked for the specific plans as to where the location of the drain is and where the drain may end up.

That information is unclear at this time, as I've already reported to the House. With regard to monitoring, if we find that the drain ends up in a place where further monitoring should be conducted, we will undertake that monitoring. I think it should be clear to the House that we're dealing with very small amounts of a substance. I think that's been referred in the House on many occasions. The conditions under which the spill occurred was a cold day in February. I can advise the House that the substance was in a very congealed state. It wasn't in a runny, liquid state.

As to how far the substance may have flowed, that is under review, and we are attempting to find out where the drain ends up. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question to the minister. Besides asking university officials to clean up the site — and the minister is saying we don't know where the drain goes — what specific action has been taken to stop the flow of water from the drain with the possibility it might be going into the river? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe there is a flow of water in this specific drain. As I say, the matter's under investigation.

The department has issued, under the authority it has, a chemical control order in terms of the specific contaminated area within the pump house, but I'm not aware of water running through that contaminated area into the drain at this time. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. The news release we just got before we came in says: The department will be continuing its investigation into this spill to see if charges should be laid under the Clean Water Act. I've raised this with the minister before.

Why would we be looking to see if charges should be laid under the Clean Water Act if, in fact, we're not sure where the drain goes? Surely this must indicate to the minister that there's a possibility of its leaking into the river, or we wouldn't be going by this Act. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, the exact reason for the investigation is to determine where the drain goes. If, in fact, the drain does discharge into a watercourse that would be affected, the department then will be considering what further action they may take, depending on results of sampling which may be undertaken at that time.

The inves­ tigation has not been completed at this time. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I certainly hope they'll get around to finding where the drain goes in the next week or so. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this. MR. MARTIN: The minister's department, as I understand it, has issued cleanup orders, but it seems to be very vague in the press release. Could the minister tell us the date by which this cleanup will be finished at the University of Calgary? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, that's under the terms of the control order.

The specific date was that after receipt of the control order the university would advise within 72 hours as to how they intend to proceed with the cleanup of the contamination, and after they've received the approval

May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 987 of the department for their course of action, they have seven days in which to carry that out. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. In terms of the problem of the sewer, could the minister indicate whether the problem rests with the university or the city of Calgary not being able to produce the plans of the sewer, or is it because the minister has not sent somebody to Calgary to investigate the matter on- site? Or is the government waiting for the material to come to Edmonton, be examined, and then be sent back to Calgary? Is that the problem?

MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of the specifics in terms of the investigation, other than to advise the House that the matter is under investigation and what information the department is seeking. MR. R. SPEAKER: A supplementary question. Could the minister indicate who is investigating, and because it's such an important issue, why doesn't the minister go and look at the matter on-site? At Nisku we had the very same thing. The minister couldn't take time to go out to look at the Nisku airport and find out . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question was complete without the appendage. MR. BRADLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I have as much concern about the environment as the hon. member has. SOME HON. MEMBERS: More. MR. MARTIN: Don't heckle him. MR. BRADLEY: That's perhaps debatable. But I have concern about the environment. There are people within the department charged with responsibilities, in terms of inves­ tigations of this type, in the waste management branch and the pollution control division, and they are carrying out their responsibilities. Hazardous Materials MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, also concerning a PCB problem in Calgary.

What follow- up has the minister done on the discovery of, I think, something over 50,000 parts per million of PCBs around the transformer at Fire Park to ascertain if anybody actually came in contact with the substance at that site? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, with regard to employees of a paving crew, I believe the Minister responsible for Workers' Health, Safety and Compensation could advise the House with regard to the follow-up there. His department was contacted with that matter, and in terms of the follow- up there, that is under his particular responsibilities. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the minister indicate when the test will be finalized with regard to the Nisku site that I itemized the other day, and when will those results of the test be tabled in the House? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, there were continued follow- up tests at the site. The information should be available in the very near future. I note the question is a matter on a motion for return which will be coming forward in the House today. Royalty Rates MR. MARTIN: I'd like to direct the second question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources.

During discussion of his estimates last week, the minister estimated that once various incentive programs are added up, the province is currently receiving royalties of about 20 percent on depletion of our nonrenewable oil and gas, which, I might point out, is equivalent to what we used to get in the early '70s. My question to the minister is: is it one of the goals of the government, as it reviews the whole system, to improve on the royalty return for the resource owned by the province of Alberta? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr.

Speaker, in the course of determining an appropriate royalty regime to have in place in the province, there are a couple of factors that have to be taken into account. The first one, of course, is the one the hon. member alludes to in his question; namely, an appropriate and fair return to the owner of the resource, the people of Alberta, of which this government acts as trustee in that regard.

By the same token, that very appropriate goal has to be measured in the context of an economic regime that ensures there is a proper incentive and an opportunity for the explorers and developers of the resource to explore and develop, to pursue the development of the resource in the fashion that is appropriate in this province. So it's a matter of weighing those two factors. That's an ongoing process, and that will certainly be the approach we take into the current incentive review. MR. MARTIN: I appreciate the way the minister evaded the question.

I'll simply ask: does the government believe at this particular time that roughly 20 percent, in the minister's estimation, is enough revenue coming back to the provincial government for the people of Alberta? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, with respect, I don't think my response was vague. I think it was a fair reflection of the approach that must be taken by a government.

If, by his question, the hon. member is inquiring as to whether or not it is the intention of this government to take away some of the incentive that currently exists for our industry to explore and develop and create jobs in the way that they can as an engine of growth in this economy, the answer is unequivocally no. MR. MARTIN: In the estimates, I think the minister would agree that he estimated we are getting roughly 20 percent. We pointed out that that was roughly what we were getting in the early '70s, when I think we would all agree we had a boom.

My question to the minister very simply is: in the review that's going on at this time, will there be any effort to increase that 20 percent? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, with respect, the hon. Leader of the Opposition can't have it both ways. He stands in the House and advocates job creation initiatives on the part of this government, and he is suggesting today that we at the same time take away some of the incentive that currently exists for private-sector job creation. You can't have it both ways. We're going to continue to provide an

988 ALBERTA HANSARD May 14, 1985 environment that will create thousands of new jobs in this province and lead us on into the '80s and '90s. [some applause] MR. MARTIN: The backbenchers can pound all they want. The point is that the minister is well aware that there are different ways to come at the same problem, because we've had this discussion . . . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The only short description of the minister's answer is "debate". Under the circum­ stances, it has to be even on both sides. MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate that.

Let me come at it in a different way. It was once a policy advocated by this government that in exchange for the resource it owns, it gain some 50 percent of incremental increases on old oil and 35 percent on new. My question is: is that still the policy in this area, and if not, what is now the goal? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, for the accuracy that's required for the record, I think it would be something of an oversimplification to suggest that the royalty objectives of the government are as narrowly defined by the hon. member.

The government of this province has consistently taken the approach that we have to monitor the economic regime on a regular basis to ensure that there is an incentive to see the development of the resource. It is for that reason that we have from time to time introduced various incentive programs, royalty holidays for example. That in fact has been the approach of this government. That continues to be our approach. The hon. member inquires as to what the approach will be in the future. The fact is that we are going to be going through a review of our incentives.

We have invited the industry to provide their views to us by the end of May, after which we will assess the situation and make a decision, promptly, I expect. So it would be quite wrong to prejudge the results of that assessment prior to having received all that input. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this line of questioning. MR. MARTIN: I have to go over four questions, then. I'll come back another day. Mr.

Speaker, last week in Calgary, as I'm sure the minister is aware, an economist by the name of Ted Haner, president of BERI, an economic forecasting service well known throughout the world, predicted a rather startling 25 percent collapse of the world price by 1987. My question is: has the minister had his officials do any study of what impact a rapid decline would have on the Alberta energy industry and Alberta's economy in particular? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr.

Speaker, when inquiries have been made with respect to predictions and the direction of world oil price, I've said in the past that perhaps the most important tool a forecaster can have is an eraser. I think that continues to be the case. There are a variety of predictions and forecasts as to the direction of the world oil price. I think that the appropriate approach of our government must be and is to monitor these various assessments.

Certainly, we're mindful of just how important the health of the oil and gas industry and the revenues flowing therefrom are to this province, but to zero in on a particular study is not the approach we would take. We are, of course, monitoring the situation on an ongoing basis. Ski Resort Development MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question with regard to the new Canada-Alberta agreement on tourism yesterday is to the Minister of Tourism and Small Business.

I want to say to the minister that I see no problem with sections 3 to 6 of the agreement, the areas of market development, training and professional development, and gaining industry and community support. The area I'd like to question the minister on is with regard to the private alpine ski devel­ opment that is part of that agreement. First of all, my question to the minister is: on what basis was it decided to spend taxpayers' money to improve the ski facilities owned and operated by those private ski operators? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, that is not unique to the other parts of the agreement as well.

They relate, in part, to any of the private-sector operations that are affecting the tourism industry. If I might just spend a moment on that particular one, I identified by name those particular areas on the Eastern Slopes that are and have the potential to be inter­ nationally known, and I'll repeat them: Fortress Mountain, Marmot Basin, Lake Louise, Mount Norquay, Westcastle, and Sunshine Village.

The basis for the program is that they would be able to use this particular agreement to cover 35 percent of the capital costs, to a maximum of $1 million each, for upgrading facilities that will bring them in line with what has occurred over the last five years of the existing agreement in British Columbia, where the private-sector ski operators have had the same program and are basically our competitors. We've been working for some time to try to get something that would be equal to that particular program and give our private sector the opportunity to at least compete. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the minister indicate what type of cost/benefit and use studies were done to arrive at the conclusion that public dollars should be invested in these ski facilities? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, the same bases that were used in all the agreements that have been signed by all the provinces across Canada. By our signing the agreement yesterday with the government of Canada, we are now basically brought up to the same level. Our agreement would provide assistance to the private sector to in fact do a number of things. I'll use some examples, if I may, Mr. Speaker.

The possibility of doing some work toward snow- making; ski lifts — the lighting, for example; trail devel­ opment; food and beverage facilities: basically what is already in place with our competitors. As a result of signing that agreement, we're now in a position to be able to say to our operators in this province that we have a program to assist you if you make the decision to in fact improve or to accelerate the development of either snowmaking, the lifts, the lights, or any of those other things I just mentioned. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Could the minister indicate that the items that have just been mentioned are deficiencies in terms of these ski facilities

May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 989 as listed in the contract, or is it a matter of government placing the dollars there in the hope that the private entre­ preneurs will use them to improve the facilities and more tourists will come in? Are we using the present facilities up to maximum, or are the facilities overutilized, so that we have to improve their ability to handle the ski trade? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, two things should be put in proper perspective.

Number one, the industry — in this case, the private-sector ski industry — has been asking for this particular type of program since the signing of all the other agreements that took place. At that particular point in time I gave them a commitment to attempt to obtain the same kind of agreement for them. We have that as of yesterday. The decision is still to be made by the individual ski resort operators as to what they want to place as their priority.

If they choose to go with snowmaking, fine, that's what the application would be based on, and they would receive 35 percent of the capital costs, up to a maximum of $1 million per application, one time only, sometime during the five-year life of this program. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, what effect will Mount Allan have on the ski facilities in the Banff area? Has the minister looked at the effect of that? Is this particular program salve on the wound to these private ski developers, saying: "Well, the government is building Mount Allan.

We're prepared to give you some money now to come up to the same standards as Mount Allan"? Is that correct? MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, some element of what you've said certainly has some bearing on it, because the decision to apply to government for some assistance first arose as a result of the agreement signed with the province of British Columbia and Canada — that was a five-year agreement that saw $50 million, I believe, going directly into the ski industry, starting with Whistler and a number of the other ones that are in direct competition with the province of Alberta — coupled then with a couple of what we will call dry years along the Eastern Slopes.

Contrary to what appeared to be only Mount Allan having no snow, the Eastern Slopes had a deficiency of snow from Marmot south to the border. All of those factors certainly have a bearing on the decisions that will be made by the private sector relative to what they may be able to do by using this program to upgrade the decisions they see, whether extension of lifts, lighting, snowmaking, or whatever the case may be. Under this agreement they now have the opportunity to put that in place and, obviously, then to attract more international visitors to those particular ski resorts.

If more visitors come, more dollars are spent in Alberta, and if more dollars are spent in Alberta, it improves our tourism product. MR. R. SPEAKER: I certainly agree with that, Mr. Speaker. That's part of my next question. Could the hon. minister indicate whether that alternative was looked at, in terms of the tourism promotion that's going on in sections 3 to 6 of this agreement, where we are attempting to bring more people into Alberta to use our facilities, to have more tourist traffic in through the prairies, the mountains, the plains, or whatever?

If that occurs in the promotion of the agree­ ment, would that increased traffic into our mountain areas not be adequate enough to assist the private promoters to improve their ski facilities, without government subsidies? MR. ADAIR: That may, Mr. Speaker. But in the same sense I think one of the difficulties we've had is when other provinces get into agreements. I'm not trying to defend the other provinces getting into agreements, because we have spent a great deal of time over the period from my colleague the hon.

Bob Dowling's days until yesterday trying to put in place something that is equitable for Albertans as well as the rest of Canada. We were able to do that.

One of the answers that will obviously come from this if they in fact utilize the program — the choice is theirs; it's here, and we have it there for them — is number one, we will be able to attract new international visitors, and number two, we will be able to attract Albertans back to Alberta who presently have been going to British Columbia or down into Whitefish, Montana, or wherever, for a number of reasons: one, lack of snow; two, better facilities as a result of another agreement already passed in the province of British Columbia, our major competitor.

We're attempting to assist our side of the industry to reach that level where they are totally and equally competitive with the rest of the ski markets in North America. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this topic. MR. R. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. Could the minister indicate what arrangements have been made in terms of the funds allocated to this specific area for the improvement of the ski facilities under conditions whereby the private operators do not use the funds? Can those funds be used in other areas, such as training Albertans to meet the touring public? MR.

ADAIR: Number one, Mr. Speaker, there's a sunrise clause in the agreement, if you've had the opportunity to read it. That sunrise agreement allows the two parties, Alberta and Canada, to put together the terms and conditions on the various application forms and promotional material that will go out for that. In essence, the start-up time is September 1, I believe, and we will then pursue the program.

At some stage in the evaluation of the five years, if there is an excess of funds in one section, we will have the opportunity to review and possibly make the suggestion to each party that they be shifted to one particular segment or another. That has happened in the past, and I assume it would happen in the future. Vehicle Safety Inspection MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Transportation.

It's regarding the recent announcement that Alberta Transportation's safety division will implement regulations requiring a safety inspection for any salvaged vehicle or any insurance write-off vehicle. Can the minister expand on how the department will carry out these regulations? MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, some time ago the hon.

Solicitor General and I received representations from certain groups in this province who were concerned about the number of written-off vehicles that were being repaired by so-called backyard auto mechanics and then put back on the road looking rather good on the outside but having some serious, major mechanical defects underneath. We undertook to see if there wasn't some possible way that this problem could be remedied. With the insurance industry

990 ALBERTA HANSARD May 14, 1985 we put in place what we hope will be a system that can operate on the basis of the insurance industry providing the Solicitor General's department with information relative to the serial number, make, and model of written-off vehicles, which will then be checked against applications for licence plates. Before purchasing a licence plate for it, someone who has repaired one of these written-off vehicles would be required to obtain an inspection from a licensed inspector. I should say, Mr.

Speaker, that we haven't finalized all the details of the program yet, but it would be our intention to license private automobile body shops in the major centres to undertake this inspection and to have some kind of final appeal to perhaps our department safety inspectors in the event that the individual who repaired the written-off vehicle felt that he was not being fairly treated by the body shop operator. So we believe that we can put the program into place with very little cost, and it will be effective in keeping some very badly repaired automobiles off the roadways. MR. PURDY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The minister indicated in his answer that they would be using auto body shops for the vehicle inspection. I'm concerned about the mechanical end of the vehicles. Is the minister not also considering using certified automotive mechanics for these inspections? MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, the qualifications and training of body shop operators in this province and those engaged in that trade is sufficient insofar as the kind of inspection that's being required.

We're not dealing with whether or not the motor is running well and things of that nature; rather, we're dealing with the safety parts of the automobile, which generally refer to braking, steering, cor­ nering, and the kind of thing that body shop mechanics are trained to undertake and pass judgment on. MR. PURDY: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to either the Minister of Transportation or the Solicitor General. Will the police have additional powers to seize vehicles if they have reasonable and probable grounds to believe that the vehicle is not roadworthy? DR. REID: Mr.

Speaker, it is not the intention to expand this program into a general inspection program for vehicles, such as was operated in the 1960s, I think. At this time, the police can in actual fact remove a vehicle that they consider to be grossly unsafe from operation on the highway. MR. PURDY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister of Transportation give serious consideration to compulsory vehicle inspection, therefore removing many other vehicles from our highways and making the highways a lot safer than they are now? MR. M. MOORE: No, Mr. Speaker.

We have considered that matter at some length and believe that the best approach with regard to all those other vehicles on the road is to ensure that drivers are well educated on the need to maintain their automobiles in a good state of repair and, as the hon. Solicitor General just said, to utilize the authority that exists under the statutes for law enforcement officers, other safety inspectors in our department, and so on to remove unsafe vehicles from the roadway when they find them. I personally think that the existing system serves us well.

The accident statistics will indicate that the number of vehicles involved in accidents because of malfunctions in the vehicle is very, very small compared to the accidents that occur as a result of driver error. Lubicon Lake Land Claim MR. GURNETT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the Minister responsible for Native Affairs. I understand the minister met last week with the Honourable Davie Fulton. I wonder if the minister could outline for the Assembly what position the federal mediator advanced at that time on the need for a land base and monetary compensation for the Lubicon Lake Band. MR.

PAHL: Mr. Speaker, I can simply report to the House that the discussions are under way with the federally appointed mediator. While I'm on my feet, I might simply outline a chronology of the events that led to this point. That might assist the hon. member in terms of gathering a perspective of where we are with the federally appointed mediator. MR. SPEAKER: I'm wondering how long that recital of previous events will take. We're running out of time, and we still have two members who have not yet asked their first questions and an hon. minister who wishes to supplement some information previously asked for. MR.

PAHL: It starts in the 1930s, Mr. Speaker, so perhaps I might simply say that the discussions with the federally appointed mediator/emissary are undergoing what I consider a critical stage. I do not feel it up to me to report what he presented or what the band presented or what we would present, but as soon as all parties have come together with something livable, I will happily report to the House on the progress. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I think it would be encouraging for many people to know what is pending.

In any case, the minister has said that he's co-operating, and that's good to hear. I trust that'll continue. Given that the federal mediator is on record as stating that the band is entitled to both a land base and monetary compensation, could the minister outline any action he intends to take immediately with regard to these areas, even before there's a final solution to the entire affair? MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, I think the nature of that question outlines the necessity to explain to the hon. member the history and the chronology of a land claim settlement.

Our position always has been that until a land claim is advanced, we can't respond to it, but we are discussing in a manner to help that claim be advanced. MR. SPEAKER: I certainly wouldn't want to interfere with an hon. minister giving a full and necessary reply to a question. As the hon. minister may recall, there is provision for an hon. minister to suggest that a question be placed on the Order Paper, and then, of course, a fairly lengthy answer is quite in order.

But to have a review of history from 1930 to the present, especially if there are many events included, would seem to be stretching the purpose of the question period. MR. GURNETT: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. We'll try to stay clear of things that require an historical review. The mediator is also on record as expressing a concern about the lack of compassion for the legitimate

May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 991 complaints. Without going into history, does the minister have any plan to investigate the basis for that concern and to act in a compassionate rather than in an historically justified way to make some gesture to the band of this province's sincerity in the issue? MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, the representation is duly noted. I would simply correct the hon. member's characterization of the federally appointed representative. He is not a mediator as such; he is a representative of the federal government, with a very broad mandate to try to bring the matter to a successful conclusion.

It is not a mediation, and I will let the federal representative's statements stand on their own. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this. MR. GURNETT: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that, as I understand, as long as a year ago the provincial government was asked to at least supply the 25-square-mile reserve that's been talked about for some years, is the minister now prepared to at least provide to the band that 25-square-mile land area, with the mineral rights, while waiting for the final report from Mr. Fulton? Fort Saskatchewan Correctional Centre DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the hon. Solicitor General. This has to do with the proposed cor­ rectional centre in Fort Saskatchewan. In light of the fact that there seems to be some concern about the operators of the chemical plants in close proximity to the site for the new institution, can the minister indicate at this time what consultation and discussion as to the siting of the new facility the minister has had with the industrial site operators? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I have met with the industrial concerns mentioned by the hon. member.

There was a meeting of the town council in Fort Saskatchewan, I think, last night. I haven't had a report on that meeting, but I understand the major concern is that the proposed site for the correction centre is one of the most suitable sites for light industry using the products of the petrochemical indus­ try. The concern has been expressed to me that if we were to use this fairly large area that is already zoned light industrial for the correction centre, it might pre-empt the possibility of the development of secondary and tertiary industry based upon the petrochemical industry.

Unfortu­ nately, the Minister of Economic Development isn't here today, but he may be able to answer the concerns of the member. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Solicitor General. Can the minister indicate if there is sufficient land available at the present site to move the facilities west and keep them basically on the site where the old facility is? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the difficulty with the present site is that it is involved in the rail relocation economics. Were we to use the present site for a replacement facility, it would adversely affect those economics.

There is the possibility of another site within the town boundaries that we are currently addressing, in order to free up the zoned light industrial land and have it available for future devel­ opments, and that's the most likely answer. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Drayton Valley, and the hon. Minister of the Environment has some further information on a question previously raised. Highway Traffic Regulations MRS. CRIPPS: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of having him dominate the question period, my question is also to the Solicitor General, with regard to the highway traffic patrol.

Drayton Valley is policed under the highway traffic patrol by Edson, Wetaskiwin, Rocky Mountain House, and Leduc, who all try to outdo each other. Is there any possibility that we can have a local detachment and stop this rivalry? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I understand several members have concerns about the function of the Highway Patrol. The Minister of Transportation and myself have had under discussion the present enforcement of the regulations under the Highway Traffic Act. The combination of the mobile Highway Patrol and the weigh scales operated by the Minister of Transportation is being addressed.

We hope to have some form of rationalization of the two systems in the relatively near future. MRS. CRIPPS: I'm happy to hear that. If the Wetaskiwin department likes Winfield so well, maybe they should move out there. My second question is: is it the policy that the inspections should be held off the road or on an extra-wide place on the road and do a total inspection; that is, is it the quality or the quantity of inspections that are held? Quite often I see those inspections being held in a narrow place on the road where they can catch people, and I'd like to know if that's a policy. DR. REID: Mr.

Speaker, it's not a matter of policy; it's a problem that is addressed by the Highway Patrol on a given occasion. Some are moving offences. Some are related to the size of loads, overhangs, heights, and on occasion, weights. Therefore, they have to take the opportunity that arises. If there is a wider spot in the road, then obviously they will pull them over in that location.

On the other hand, if it's a road where there is no wider area, road junction, or other suitable place, it may well be that the truck has to be pulled over and stopped where there is not a wide shoulder, and indeed there may be some obstruction to other traffic. It just depends on the circumstances of the individual occurrence. MRS. CRIPPS: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, my question had to do with the roadblocks set up by the highway traffic patrol, where they stop every truck that comes along.

Are safety stickers given as a matter of policy once the vehicle is checked, so that it doesn't have to be checked again, and if not, why not? DR. REID: The concern of the hon. member has been brought to my attention by others as well as herself. Among the items being reviewed at the moment is some system to avoid multiple checks of vehicles that have already been checked on the current run with the particular load that is being checked at the time. There has been some difficulty with some vehicles being checked as often as four times while traversing the province, either from east to west or north to south.

992 ALBERTA HANSARD May 14, 1985 MRS. CRIPPS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the minister given consideration to rescinding the instant, triple 8 traffic summons and going back to a charge which has to be approved at the office by someone else, in more rational circumstances? DR. REID: I'm sorry I don't quite understand the question as put by the hon. member. MRS. CRIPPS: The triple 8 traffic ticket is an instantaneous traffic ticket which may list numerous little, not necessarily infractions, but deficiencies.

As I understand the situation, a warning ticket was given saying that it would be followed by a ticket which was in fact a ticket. Now it's done instantaneously and causes a lot of negligible considerations to be listed on the traffic ticket. DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, in a large number of cases the highway patrol issue only a written warning. Where the deficiencies in safety or other equipment are such that it's felt that the potential for danger to the rest of the travelling public or to the vehicle itself is sufficient, then a ticket is often issued on site.

It is true that on occasion there are multiple deficiencies, and in those events multiple tickets may be issued. In recent history the number of warning tickets as opposed to infraction tickets has been increasing quite considerably. This goes along with the philosophy of attempting to improve safety on the highways and not just issue infraction tickets. MRS. CRIPPS: A supplementary question. Could the Min­ ister of Transportation indicate the purpose of the three lights in a cluster on vehicles? MR. M. MOORE: Mr.

Speaker, I'm having some difficulty understanding exactly what part of the vehicle or what kind of vehicles these three cluster lights are on. Perhaps the hon. member could expand. MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps she could take a sample to the hon. minister's office. MRS. CRIPPS: Well, actually I apologize to the minister. I deliberately asked him instead of the Solicitor General, because nobody knows what the three cluster lights are on the back of a truck, yet we're giving out tickets. Actually, it means the truck is over eight feet wide.

In that regard, would the Minister of Transportation make representation to the federal government to review the Act as it specifically applies to oilfield trucks and service rigs? MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I'm having some difficulty understanding what Act and how the federal government gets involved. The Highway Traffic Act is a responsibility of this Legislature and me as minister. Perhaps the hon. member could expand on where the federal government is involved. MR. SPEAKER: Room for expansion is rather limited. We've come to the end of the question period.

Perhaps we could have a brief supplementary and answer, and if the Assembly agrees, we might then recognize the hon. Minister of the Environment. MRS. CRIPPS: Our Highway Traffic Act is in concert with the federal Act in order to make all the Acts similar. I understand representation needs to be made to the federal government because our Act is in concert with theirs, and that's why we have it. MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, that's not the case at all. This Legislature and our government are in full control of legislation regarding the operation of motor vehicles and trucks on our highway system.

In consultation with the Solicitor General, I presently have the Highway Traffic Act under review. The Solicitor General is reviewing the motor vehicle Act with the view that we make those two pieces of Alberta legislation as compatible as possible. We could expect to have amendments in the Legislature in that regard. While we do try to be compatible with other provinces in our highway traffic laws, there is no requirement in that regard, and I'm not even aware of a federal Act. MR. SPEAKER: We're just a little over time.

Does the Assembly agree to have the Minister of the Environment supplement some information previously requested? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. University of Calgary PCB Spill (continued) MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to further supplement an answer I'd given in the House earlier with regard to the drain at the University of Calgary. I recently received information in the House. The department advises me that the drain goes into a sand filter and then into the ground and that there is no direct discharge into the Bow River.

I should also advise the House that PCBs do not dissolve readily in water, so the concern, if there was discharge into a rivercourse would be that the PCBs would bind in the sediments in the rivercourse and then somehow get into the food chain. There is not a concern with its solubility in water. I should also advise the House that I've received infor­ mation with regard to monitoring, which the department does on treated water supply and river systems in the province.

Specifically with regard to the water distribution systems in the city of Calgary, there have been no PCBs found in the treated water from either the Glenmore or the Bearspaw reservoirs. Similarly, with regard to results I have to date of monitoring the Bow River itself downstream from Calgary, there have been no detectable levels of PCBs found in the river. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Might we revert briefly to Introduction of Special Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MRS. EMBURY: Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure today to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assembly, 45 students from all across Alberta. These stu­ dents are here in Edmonton as members of the Forum for

May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 993 Young Albertans. They're here for a week of hard study of all aspects of the provincial government and the Edmonton city government. As members are aware, we have repre­ sentation from the members of the Assembly on their board of directors. The director, Miss Linda Ciurysek, is with the students.

I believe most members are aware that Linda lives in the constituency of Calgary North West, has been involved in this particular organization right from the beginning, and each year has worked very hard in the organization to see that so many students have the opportunity to come to Edmonton. Linda has done this as well as continuing her studies at the University of Calgary, where she recently completed a master's degree and soon hopes to enter a third degree in law. I believe her destination is still a question in her mind, but she fortunately has a couple of places to choose from.

On behalf of the members of the Legislature, I'd like to commend Linda most highly and most sincerely for her dedication to this project and also to wish her well in the future. Linda is also accompanied by Darlene Strauss, one of the other people with the high school students, and Blair Stolz. Some might recognize his name. Blair, of course, is the youngest alderman in Canada, from the city of Medicine Hat. He has been a director for the Forum for Young Albertans for three years and was a page in this Legislature, in the fall of 1983.

I would ask all the students, the director, and their assistants to please rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. MR. SHRAKE: Mr. Speaker, I have the privilege of intro­ ducing to you, and through you to the members of the Legislature, eight students in the public gallery who are all the way from Calgary. They're from Victoria community school, which is one of the finest community schools in the province of Alberta. They're accompanied by their teachers Mr. Dave Baxter, Mr. Noel Aberrgoush, Mrs. Phyllis, and Mrs. Lawrence.

I wonder if they would rise and receive the warm traditional welcome of the Legislature. MR. McPHERSON: Mr. Speaker, it's a pleasure for me today to introduce to you and to our colleagues in the Legislative Assembly 40 grade 6 students from the Fairview elementary school in the constituency of Red Deer. It has become somewhat of a custom in the short period of time that I have been in this Legislature to welcome the students from Fairview elementary school.

I would like to commend their teachers Greg Atkinson and Dave Stewart for continuing to bring the students to the Legislative Assembly to witness their government in action. The students today are accom­ panied by parents Judy Radtke, Judy Andres, Darlene Megill, and Kerry Megill. Mr. Speaker, the students are seated in the public gallery, and I ask them to rise and receive the recognition of the House. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assembly, 16 grade 6 students from Sacred Heart community school in the constituency of Edmonton Highlands.

I am past arguing with my colleagues about which is the best school in the province, but clearly this is one of the better schools in the province, Mr. Speaker. I'm delighted to have the students here this afternoon with their teachers Mrs. Austin, Mrs. Burghardt, and Mr. Howrish. They're seated in the members' gallery. I ask them to rise to receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, before calling questions and motions, I would ask that motions for returns 138, 141, and 142 stand. [Motion carried] head: WRITTEN QUESTIONS 143. Mr.

Martin asked the government the following question: What is the government's best estimate of the total value of royalties that were not collected by the Crown due to the loss to the atmosphere and fire of sulphur and condensates from the Lodgepole blowout well (Amoco Dome Brazeau River 13-12 — 48-12) between October 17, 1982, and December 28, 1982? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, the government has con­ sidered Question 143 appearing on the Order Paper and has come to the conclusion that the question is unanswerable in its current form and, therefore, cannot be accepted.

Very briefly, the reason for the question being unanswerable is that royalties are both calculable and payable at the time of sale of natural gas. Therefore, in order to calculate royalty, one must know the price at which that gas would be sold, at what time the gas would actually have been sold — it may have been shut in for a period of some years — and the actual volumes of gas and gas products that would have been sold. None of that information, of course, could be determined prior to a sale being concluded. For those reasons, Mr.

Speaker, we have concluded that the question cannot be answered and, therefore, could not be accepted. head: MOTIONS FOR RETURNS 139. Mr.

Martin moved that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: Details of all travel (excluding, in the case of Members of the Legislative Assembly, travel to, from, in, and around their home constituencies) paid for by public funds, for Members of the Legislative Assembly, members of the Executive Council, Executive Council staff, staff of the office of the Premier, and the personal staffs of all ministers, including ministerial assistants, for the period March 1, 1984, to March 31, 1985, inclusive, showing: (1) dates of departure and return for each trip, (2) destinations, (3) transportation used, if it was commercial or charter aircraft, train, bus, or car, (4) total cost for each journey, including transportation, accommodation, and entertainment/hospitality, (5) list of persons accompanying the principal traveller, and (6) purpose of travel.

MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to propose an amendment to Motion for a Return 139. It deals with two matters. One is that it's the view of the government that in assembling information in respect to travel, it serves little purpose and is out of all proportion to the amount of checking with individual members that would have to be done in order to include travel within Alberta. So the proposal is that that portion of the main paragraph relative to details be changed. The other change is in subparagraph

994 ALBERTA HANSARD May 14, 1985 (5), the "list of persons accompanying the principal trav­ eller." The suggestion there is that that should relate only to where such persons are travelling with their expenses paid by public funds. I move the amendment accordingly, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, on the one part of it, I can accept section (5). That makes sense, because we're worried about public finances rather than people paying their own way. That's their business. As I understand it, the minister is saying it would be too much trouble to find out the travel in Alberta.

I suggest that we were not talking about all travel to begin with. We were talking about: excluding, in the case of Members of the Legislative Assembly, travel to, from, in and around their home constituencies. We were not asking for that. Surely part of our role here, Mr. Speaker, especially in times of restraint when we expect other groups to restrain themselves, is that we know what we're paying for travel within Alberta.

I appreciate that we're going to get travel outside the province, but there were some pretty harrowing experiences of travel within the province — $1,000 here, $1,000 there, the Treasurer, $1,800. These are the sorts of things I think should be public knowledge. I for one am not satisfied with that change. I can understand that when people travel back and forth to their constituencies, that's a needed part of the job.

But it seems to me that the other we're asking for should be easily available to determine our jobs here in checking the public purse, especially, if I may say so, in a time of restraint that we talk about. So I am not happy about that particular amendment. I don't think it's appropriate there. I would have hoped that the government would accept the whole motion. As I said, we weren't asking about constituency travel. [Motion as amended carried] 140. Mr.

Gurnett moved that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: Copies of the results of all water and ground sampling undertaken by the Department of the Environment at and around the site of the Kinetic Ecological Resource Group Ltd. storage facility at Nisku, Alberta, since the inception of the sampling program. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say something about that motion and also move an amendment so that the commitment of the minister in question period today can be fulfilled. Depending on your definition of a site, there is more than one site at Nisku. There is more than one building.

In question period the other day I gave the minister an address of a site that belongs to Kinetic Ecological Resource Group that is three or four blocks away. At that site there is water that's being tested. As the motion now stands, it talks about "around the site". Mr. Speaker, I would like to move that the letter "s" be added to the word "site" so that it is in the plural rather than the singular form. MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member speaking to the amendment? MR. GURNETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

In the interests of the minister's being able to provide us with as much information as possible, I'm happy to support the amendment. [Motion as amended carried] 144. Mr. Martin moved that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: Copies of the report on Abacus Cities Ltd., identified and quoted by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs at page 818 of Alberta Hansard (May 6, 1985). MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, in responding to this motion, I ask all hon. members to reject it for the following reason. It is not customary to order materials that are a matter of public record, and this is.

Just to refresh the hon. member's memory, last summer when I spoke to the press and made available copies of the document in question, the opposition's office was also provided with a copy. But if the hon. member no longer has one, I'd be pleased to supply him with one. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, on that order, we thought it was a different . . . MR. SPEAKER: If we're going to debate it, may the hon. leader conclude the debate? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. MARTIN: I apologize to the hon. minister.

I thought she was referring to a different document, so I accept that there is no need for this motion. MR. SPEAKER: Does that amount to a withdrawal? MR. MARTIN: Yes. [Motion withdrawn] head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 216. Moved by Mr. Hiebert:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly urge the government to establish a school of international business education at the University of Alberta. MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to propose Motion 216 this afternoon to the Assembly. The main thrust of the motion comes from the challenge that faces Canada in the area of international trade. It's an area where Alberta needs to examine how it can link its economy to world economies.

Canada's and Alberta's prosperity and new job creation will depend to a great extent on the effectiveness and sophistication we have with regard to dealing in world trade. Most recent estimates show that Alberta's major commodity exports come in the areas of our natural gas, crude oil, and petro-products, and also from our agricultural products. With the worldwide economic downturn, many of the assumptions upon which national trade policies have been based are open to scrutiny. In fact, the traditional models of how a province or country deals with another country or with foreign markets can be open to question.

We all recognize that world trade is going to play an ever-increasing role in Canada and that competition is going

May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 995 to be very fierce with regard to competing for the world economic pie. Certainly, access to these markets is there. However, we need to arrive at some sophistication in terms of how we develop our managers and businesspeople in dealing with different countries. Therefore, Canada must develop new structures and new approaches so that different strategies can be used in international marketing. The whole motion, in suggesting the establishment of an institute or school of international business, is in order to make Alberta more competitive internationally. Mr.

Speaker, it's necessary to develop this sophistication so that our knowledge and sensitivity to other countries will induce a better business climate and thereby result in deals that are going to be profitable and also very vital to our economic growth and prosperity. As we've all seen, international growth has certainly been exploding throughout North America, and many com­ panies have at least 40 percent of their sales in the inter­ national marketplace. The change is qualitative and quantitative in form.

Domestic positions have become different, and with many firms we can expect managers to have to deal with people from other countries. In fact, they have to deal with different nationalities, cultures, and languages. Effective management within organizations will have to be very sen­ sitive to this particular expertise that is going to be required by Alberta businesses. If we're going to develop this expertise in Alberta and deal effectively on the international level, we need to look at our educational system so that it can start supplying young people who have the expertise to deal in such a marketplace.

This is especially true when we see that many of our products do not have a clear technological advantage over, let's say, other products in the world. Then the difference between developing markets will be in the contact made between our businesspeople and those that are dealing in the international trade scene. The nature of this expertise generally falls into two categories. One is substantive knowledge, where the firm and the individual need to know something about the country in terms of its economic, social, and political conditions.

If companies are going to make investment decisions and do some long-term planning with regard to international trade, this knowledge is going to be paramount. Secondly, international expertise means that the knowledge of how to do business with other countries has to be attained. It's not only necessary to know something about the other country; it's important to know something about how they do things, how they approach problems.

Firms and businesspeople will have to become familiar with such things as business prac­ tices and methods of trade, differences in customs and language, differences in ideologies and politics, historical backgrounds, or anything to do with the background of that particular country. I think we can take as an example the China trade show last spring in Edmonton. The Chinese people had difficulty marketing some of their products. The products were all for sale, yet they did not put any price tags on particular items. They wondered why they were not doing any business.

In our country people do business in a different way from what the Chinese are used to, and many sales were lost as a result of their inability to relate to how businesses actually do trade in North America. Many times the dealers found the bureaucracy challenging. There was a problem with delivery; it was time-consuming. In fact, there was so much red tape that there was a frustration level with some of them. I know that some American firms actually tried to place orders of $150,000 to $200,000 in value, yet the people at the trade show could not go over the ceiling of $50,000 in any transaction.

They had to be confined to that kind of limitation. So I'm sure the reverse is true when our people go to foreign markets. The way they do things in Japan or China will be quite different from how we conduct business in Canada and in Alberta. In trying to develop that international expertise, I feel it is not possible exclusively through experience or through an educational program.

It has to be a blend of experience and education so that our young people, who may be in short supply right now in dealing with the international markets, will be able to cope with that as future graduates, because in the long-term future many of the excellent job opportunities will be in the area of international trade. So I envisage the institute trying to blend education and experi­ ence in a co-operative way. The institute would reach out into the private sector to try to get a co-operative venture going whereby both goals could be achieved.

In the short-term there could be outreach programs to provide some of this expertise to government and the private sector. But in the long-term, if we're going to attract the appropriate kind of people from the international community, it is going to be necessary to have some structure in the program and also to offer something beyond just the experi­ ence component. That is where the institute could come in, trying to provide that infrastructure of learning on a broader base. In terms of the institute itself, I envisage three specific objectives. One would be to establish an educational pro­ gram, Mr.

Speaker, that would develop the skills of our young Albertans to meet the strategies the government has proposed in the white paper. Secondly, it would be to develop a policy function whereby information and policy options could be presented to the government for future directions in economic development. Thirdly, it would be to set up an information service that would gather and transmit economic and other information to make our private sector competitive on the international scene. The educational program, Mr. Speaker, would address two audiences.

The first objective would be to focus on the development and expansion of existing programs, be they degree programs at either the first level or the post­ graduate level. These programs could be allied or connected with a faculty such as the Faculty of Business, but they would not be exclusively involved with that faculty. They would outreach to other faculties to try to give a greater breadth to the offerings.

One could see, for example, that the linguistics department of the Faculty of Arts could become involved, or the agriculture department could be involved in developing parallel programs that would augment the program they're taking with the Faculty of Business. Priority would have to be given to the recruitment of people with some international expertise. It's my under­ standing that these people are at a premium. They are very difficult to find, and therefore it would take some time to develop the institute so that we would have the appropriate expertise.

Provision could be made for such things as student exchanges and exchanges of instructors from different coun­ tries. Private-sector experts could be involved. There could be scholarships for students from other countries or countries that we do a great deal of trading with. It would be a situation whereby students would become familiar with Alberta and the way we do business in Alberta, and likewise if we

996 ALBERTA HANSARD May 14, 1985 had students on the other side of the ocean, they too would learn some of the ideologies and cultural factors that are involved in how countries trade. The second educational objective would be to set up a program that would probably benefit Alberta business in a more direct way. This could take place in the form of seminars or workshops for Alberta businessmen dealing with international trade. These programs could be year-round. They could be outreach programs. There could be summer workshop series. They would assist Alberta businessmen to upgrade their expertise in this area.

I noted, for instance, that the University of Alberta has programs going on this summer trying to attract people from the international scene. One is with regard to gov­ ernance in postsecondary education. It's an international institute for postsecondary administrators that's taking place in June of this year. The Alberta summer institute for petroleum industry development is another one that is taking place at the university.

Again, it's an example of the programs that are offered to cater to the business sector or the educational sector so that people from all over the world can benefit from the experiences we've had in Alberta. Conferences would be an area of interest, I think, to Canadian business interests. There could be exchange pro­ grams where individuals from the private sector in Alberta would be allowed to gain some employment or experience abroad.

Likewise, the private sector could probably become involved by providing employment opportunities for foreign students so that they, too, could have a direct way of experiencing how the private sector operates in this part of the world. Another aspect that could be involved with regard to assisting the private sector would be briefing conferences. If we had trade missions coming to Alberta or Alberta businesspeople going abroad, they could benefit from having a specific kind of briefing

section before they went to that country so they would be more effective in marketing their goods. I mentioned the one function being education. The second function is policy. If we're going to have policy formation, of course, this would encourage research. The institute could prepare background papers on specific topics. It could recommend alternatives for government consideration.

I think research would play a very important role in how the institute would operate, because it's an ever-moving target and it's important that different strategies and mechanisms are there to ensure that we're keeping abreast of the changes that are occurring in the trading scene. The research could be done on a contractual or noncontractual basis, and the private sector could thereby be vitally involved with the institute throughout its existence. I had mentioned policy options for government. Certainly, that would be an active area to participate in.

We've all seen how the white paper has generated a great deal of thought. With the institute being involved in this area, we would have many options and alternatives being presented to government for their consideration. A third function could be the whole area of data gathering or information dissemination to ensure that business firms and the institute would have updated materials with regard to international marketing. The institute certainly could develop a data base which would list the international economic projects that are taking place.

It could collect business information for government and the private sector to provide a basis on which they could make some invest­ ments. The information could certainly be stored by com­ puter, and this computer could be accessed by businesspeople throughout the province. One could look at how the institute would operate. There are different thoughts on how the institute should be set up. It could be freestanding. It could be located on the campus of the University of Alberta. It could be satellited throughout the province.

As to where it should be placed, I think the institute requires a core, and then different satellites could be developed in the other universities through­ out the province or the Banff School of Fine Arts or wherever. The institute could be semiautonomous. It could be done with an endowment like the medical research foundation — not necessarily the same dollars but the same concept. It would be my view, as I've stated before in the resolution, that a core area has to be named. I think the most appropriate place, of course, is right here in Edmonton, near the seat of government.

I know I'm going to get some debate on this question from my friends to the south, and they'll be stampeding another way. But I'm sure their allegiances are with Edmonton tonight and also with this motion this afternoon. I envisage that the institute would have a board made up of people from the private sector. To involve other countries, there could even be an advisory board with representation from the countries we're actually trading with. That would give us the cross-referencing and the sensitivity to some of the things we're trying to do through the institute.

Certainly, the private sector would be asked to assume a leadership role, and they could be front and centre in the program development. That way the institute would be very responsive to the needs of our private sector. Another way of doing the institute would be by endowing certain chairs. We can look at the Institute of Law Research and Reform; they operate that way. Some members of the institute are members of the faculty and others are in private practice. They work together co-operatively with regard to making reports and recommendations for consideration by government.

Another would be that the institute could be attached directly to a faculty or department. This is not an approach I would prefer, because we all know the dollars in the global budget are very scarce. There would be competition for them, and there could be a conflict where the university's interests and needs would take preference over the institute's. Of course, the institute has to have objectives broader than just the institute's; it must look after Alberta's needs and the policies cited by the government of the day. My reasons for saying that the siting should be at the U of A are specific.

It is the oldest and largest university in terms of scope of activities. We need to have faculties other than business involved. We have areas like agriculture. The whole question of the medical research taking place at the W.C. Mackenzie hospital — that could have a role to play. We have an excellent school of East Asian studies and linguistics; that is an important component with regard to the institute.

It's also important to have it sited at an institution like the University of Alberta because if you're going to draw people from the international community, it's important that the program be given some structure and depth, that it not be just in the form of seminars or conferences. It should tie in with a program that will lead to some culmination. Also, the university scene sets an environment, both cul­ turally and in terms of research-oriented activities, and this would provide an attractive setting for our international

May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 997 people when looking at the options available through this institute. Third, the U of A resources library is recognized as one of the best in Canada. The University of Alberta has the largest economic development library. So some of the infrastructure is there; we just need to capitalize on what is available. The University of Alberta has nationally rec­ ognized manpower. Two new faculty with international expertise have been hired, one in international law and the other in international finance. As I mentioned before, these people are very difficult to find.

However, with a long- term commitment and a recognized endowment, the institute certainly has only one place to go, and that is forward. It could be a very attractive program for our young people. As I mentioned before, the U of A has an extensive East Asian language and literature program, and that par­ ticular program is very important to the international student. The U of A presently has the largest population of inter­ national students. In 1983-84, 20 percent of the students registered in the Faculty of Graduate Studies and Research were foreign students.

The U of A already has considerable international expertise. It has well-established business con­ tacts and international contacts through its international briefing centre. Another factor for placing it at the University of Alberta would be its close proximity to the seat of government and the various departments. We all recognize that many of the countries that send foreign missions or trade groups tend to come to the capital city or where the seat of government is.

With the University of Alberta being within five minutes of the Legislature and many of the government departments, there would be easy access to these particular departments so that government, the private sector, and the institute could work co-operatively together. The University of Alberta has already recognized the importance of international studies, and they have already hired some people to deal with this question on site. One, they've appointed a new associate vice-president in academics to be in charge of international affairs.

Secondly, they've set up one of their planning groups to deal with international development, with specific reference to the Pacific Rim as one of the university's top priorities. I've given an overview of what the institute could be. I've also argued for where it should be. I don't think we're looking at it exclusively in Edmonton. The core ought to be placed at the University of Alberta — it's a natural — but it should be satellited to other places in the province so that it is not sited at just one place but rather is working together in all parts of the province, with the core or prime location being here.

I urge all members, even those from Calgary, to look at the merits of the motion. I look forward to their support and debate. MRS. KOPER: Mr. Speaker, I'm delighted that the hon. Member from Edmonton Gold Bar has provided us with an opportunity to discuss this today. I think this motion inevitably recognizes Alberta's indisputable position as one of Canada's most vital economic centres. I also feel that the growth over the years and the demand for our resource- based industries make Alberta a prime site for the estab­ lishment and development of secondary and service indus­ tries.

I feel that Alberta has a strategic location in terms of access to the markets in the Pacific Rim, and for this reason this motion is most timely. It follows the strategy proposed in the white paper: Our objective should be to assist our companies [in Alberta] in exposure to market opportunities and where necessary, provide incentives for industry to take risks in [essential] export marketing. [Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair] The hon. member already mentioned that western Canada depends on trade and trade investment. It's a fact, too, that one job in five in Alberta is now export-dependent.

Accord­ ing to provincial government figures, Alberta exports are growing at the rate of 15 percent annually, with a value of $11.4 billion or 22.4 percent of the provincial gross domestic product. Mr. Speaker, I feel that that's a result of a focus and an attempt by our government over these years to develop new and pragmatic marketing strategies for our major exportable products and services. This is a real result of attention and commitment over the years. Mr. Speaker, I believe the plan the hon.

Member for Edmonton Gold Bar has introduced reflects a lot of the intents of a proposal made in October 1981 to the Alberta government with the idea of establishing a centre for inter­ national trade. The net benefits to western Canada from future development in international markets will depend mainly on the ability of the businessman to operate more efficiently and profitably in a changing global environment. This centre was proposed with the objective of equipping policy- and decision-makers with the skills and know-how necessary to improve their abilities to manage effectively in the international area.

As such, it intended to accomplish its mission with three main thrusts very similar to the ones proposed by the hon. Member for Edmonton Gold Bar: first of all, providing management training and education; secondly, developing research and publications; and thirdly, developing counselling and consulting services. They would be delivered in an integrated manner according to a plan which ensures more of an interdisciplinary approach, more practical than theo­ retical.

While I think a sound conceptual basis is essential, particular importance is placed on the integration with the community and the practical application of the strategies in the businesses that presently exist. This type of centre would give a high priority to trading and investment partners. It would give a high priority to training executives and exchange programs. It would seek mutually beneficial forms of collaboration between the centre and the business schools in Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and, of course, the Banff Centre.

It would emphasize co­ operation and co-ordination of activities with the trade development branches of our Department of Economic Development and the international marketing branch of the federal department. These objectives were proposed in 1981. In 1982 there was a crystallization of plans. An actual strategy was arranged and proposed to our government.

It was decided that the centre should be affiliated with the University of Calgary but be established as a legally incorporated entity with financial and administrative autonomy, with the com­ petence, through a board of directors, to enter into agree­ ments and collaborate with other institutions in the conduct of these activities. Mr. Speaker, this proposal meant that although the location would be in the geographical centre of western Canada, which is Calgary, it would also include membership from other areas — for instance, the leading businessmen with international business experience. It was proposed that

998 ALBERTA HANSARD May 14, 1985 there be eight members: two senior officials from the government of Alberta, the academic vice-president from the University of Calgary, the director of the Banff Centre, the dean of the Faculty of Business from the University of Alberta, the director of the centre, and two members at large, representing other collaborating institutions. A director and four associates would be responsible for managing the centre, and a core of four faculty members would be recruited initially to work on the implementation of the programs.

It was decided that the centre would have to develop an excellent working relationship with the business com­ munity, government departments, universities, and all other institutions both within and outside Alberta. The purpose of those links would be to enable the centre to determine needs and expectations, to seek contributions to the process of planning its activities, to mobilize additional resources to help disseminate knowledge about the centre and its work, and to evolve a mechanism for appraising the effectiveness of the centre. These plans were presented in 1982.

A further com­ mitment to this was presented by our Premier when he addressed the Canadian Pacific Rim Opportunities Confer­ ence on October 7, 1983. The Premier said: Let's start to develop a sophisticated Canadian strategy for selling technology. We're starting to do this here in Alberta. For many of our smaller companies, it is just too difficult for the return, so we're trying to think through an entirely new approach.

Alberta will organize seminars with the private sector, starting with the oil and gas industry . . . [and] present a proposal to the private sector for a new approach by the pro­ vincial government to assist in the area of selling technology. The object is that many smaller or inter­ mediate size companies should be able to participate in this field in a much more coordinated way.

With the initiatives shown in that paper — distributed in 1981, presented in 1982 to the government, and, I guess, reaffirmed through those words in 1983 — the 1984 pres­ entation of the white paper by our government was no surprise to Calgarians. If we look at some of the things that have happened since, I would like to draw the attention of hon. members to our airport. It is within the city limits, has 11 major airlines, has direct connections to most major cities in North America, and is possibly — I don't have the exact statistics — one of the most frequently used airports in Canada. MR.

SZWENDER: They're all leaving. MRS. KOPER: No. I've looked it up; I wish I could remember the exact statistics. At any rate, it is also right on the Trans-Canada Highway and, as I said before, in the geographical heart of the four western provinces. I should also mention that we have other initiatives in Alberta. There are some 400 companies of exporting pro­ ducers in Calgary with about 20,000 employees doing about $3 billion worth of business. They are doing this business outside Canadian borders, and they are able to retain their sales volumes, industry, and work forces.

Recently a survey was done of small businesses, high- tech companies, in Calgary. There were 250 surveys mailed out and 104 responses. Of those 104 responses, it was found that 82 percent had their head offices located in Calgary. Eighteen percent were located in other places in the world. Seventy percent of the research and development facilities of those 104 companies were in Calgary. I think it's crucial to know that about 45 percent of these high- tech companies were employing from zero to 10 people and 49 percent were expected to expand by double within one year.

Their activities right now make the future look very bright for them. In addition to those two factors, the June 1984 Canadian Business magazine listed Calgary as the third city in Canada in terms of location of the head offices of various companies. Toronto had 187 companies, Montreal had [77], and Calgary had 55. I was pleased to find out that Edmonton had seven. We are also in Canada's top 500 industrial forces. Mr. Speaker, I felt that those initiatives were very important to mention, because, first of all, they reflect something crucial.

When someone from another country comes to do business in our province, as the previous speaker mentioned, it's important for them to talk to people who are knowledgeable in the area and who understand their country. But it is also very important for them to talk to people who have the authority of their company and are able to show exactly what is going on in the particular companies that wish to do business. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make a few other points about the location of this venture.

We have no argument at all about the existence of an institute such as the one proposed by the hon. member, but I think the location bears very close scrutiny and examination. Presently in Calgary a building called Scurfield Hall is being constructed. This building represents a major commitment of the business communities in Calgary, with 50 percent of the capital and operating costs being covered by the private sector. This has not happened very many times. I think it's a remarkable initiative. A significant proportion of this contribution came from the Scurfield family.

I think the late Ralph Scurfield was a symbol of the business enterprises in our community that worked so hard with the university to establish an integrated service delivery. Mr. Speaker, there's space in Scurfield Hall for this institute. There's space for the plans that were laid so long ago in 1981. When I think of the university and the initiatives taken there, I feel it is also important to mention the entrepre- neurship program of the faculty of business. The program has recently graduated 10 students with three or more courses in entrepreneurship.

This is quite a distinction, because they offer far more courses in entrepreneurship than most uni­ versities in Canada. They have a unique situation where speakers in this innovative program are being asked to address audiences all over North America; indeed, they've had an invitation to Britain. Of these 10 graduates, eight are currently developing ventures along with their partners that are responsible for directly employing 90 people. Their annual revenues vary from a low of $40,000 to $15 million. The projected 1984 sales for the eight ventures were over $16 million. Mr.

Speaker, I only mention this because this faculty has taken a creative approach, a really active, concrete symbol of what can be done in the business community as far as initiating projects and delivering serv­ ices. [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] Another initiative that happened very recently in Calgary is that Canadian Pacific Enterprises is now located there. This is a major incentive for delivery of contacts throughout the world. Mr. Speaker, when this motion came up, I thought I should take a look at what we are doing in the city and

May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 999 see if I could do some follow-up on some of the initiatives that are being talked about and how effective they are. I called another resource we have in this area, Dr. Talaat Abdel-Malek. Dr. Abdel-Malek has been working at the University of Calgary ever since 1981, when these first initiatives came out. He formerly worked with the Banff School of Management and has qualifications that I guess label him as an expert. Indeed, he has even helped the University of Alberta get their courses started. He lectured a few times there. I was delighted to see that. Dr.

Abdel- Malek received guests yesterday from Xian University in central China, and tomorrow he's leaving for a six-week stint at that university to lecture on international marketing. I believe this is a very concrete example of what can be done to get our knowledge of the frontiers expanded through ties across the ocean. Dr. Abdel-Malek set up a course, an innovative learning experience, designed for top government officials and vice- presidents — senior executives, so to speak — on Managing Future Challenges: a Canada/Asia Senior Executive Seminar.

Out of curiosity I phoned several people who participated in that seminar, and I asked about Calgary's potential as a base for an international school of business. These people were almost unanimous in their support. They felt that one definitely should be instituted. They felt that it was important that Calgary be considered, because Calgary has the head offices of most people involved in export trade and most of them want to meet the people involved in the program. Mr. Speaker, many of them are in Calgary. In Calgary there is great community support of the point of view that the government should be involved.

It is easier to send government people down to these conferences than to send all the people who have come to visit the head offices up to a centre in another location. It appears that the excellent resources that are accessible at the University of Alberta are as close as a computer away. I hope that the resources of Calgary are that close too. Another person I phoned was signing a co-operative agreement with China for offshore oil development and engineering. He was not available to discuss the situation with me, but I found that the company is receiving a design team from Dong-Huang.

This design team will be spending four weeks in Calgary working on the preliminary design for an export oil pipeline of approximately 250 kilometres for their country. After the preliminary design, the detail and automation system will be done by people here in Alberta. There is a real tendency to use the business community in Calgary, too, to implement the programs that are offered in other universities in the province.

I feel it's vital that we continue this co-operative effort, recognizing that field experience opportunities are there in Calgary and perhaps the focus should be that it would be most convenient for the people participating to be there as well. Aside from our resources, such as our university, Mr. Speaker, I think we should also mention the super C computer. In a recent bulletin I noticed that the super Cyber computer is affiliated with other university sites that have a super Cyber.

Of course, this would be readily accessible to all universities in Alberta, but we have the University of Amsterdam in Holland; the University of Georgia in Athens, Georgia; Ruhr university in Bochum, West Ger­ many; Colorado State; the Karlesruhe university in West Germany; Manchester university in the United Kingdom; Purdue University; and Florida State University. These hookups are there, and hopefully the super C will promote a long-term relationship with other super Cs.

There is potential here for widespread use of knowledge that will spring through these technological connections that are now surfacing in Calgary. Mr. Speaker, we've got the BOSS system, mentioned by our minister in his estimates. We have services available to small businesses through the import/export development programs of Tourism and Small Business. We have the market forces that I've already mentioned are in Calgary. Further to that, I have two more initiatives I feel are important to mention.

An advertisement was recently placed by the Calgary Economic Development Authority in Fortune magazine's 1984 area development section. It pulled in more replies than any other advertisement. A total of 712 requests for information about doing business in the city of Calgary were generated by a single insertion of that ad. I think that's tremendous proof of the interest in Calgary's future, especially noting that the second largest response was to the French industrial development agency, followed by the Berlin economic development corporation. In closing, Mr.

Speaker, another factor that I think is important in consideration of the location is that our Mayor Klein is presently visiting China. Tomorrow he will be signing a twinning arrangement with Daqing that was initiated by the tremendous similarity in climate, geography, and the need for transfer of knowledge in oil technology. We are related in very many ways. That agreement will be signed tomorrow. The purpose of this trip was to do that, plus to follow up earlier initiatives with Hong Kong investors. Mr. Speaker, I feel that a great deal of work has been done.

I know Alberta's oldest and largest university has contributed significantly to this development, and I would like to see some sort of arrangement for a team, a co­ operative, approach. I think a satellite idea is excellent. I suggest that the University of Alberta should be the agri­ cultural satellite community that contributes to the agricul­ tural export business. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I feel it's extremely important that we have this institute, and I suggest that we closely examine the location and debate that very thoroughly in our Legislature before we make any decision as to the location. Thank you.

MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak in support of a school of international business education, I would like to first of all commend the Member for Edmonton Gold Bar for bringing this very important motion before the Assembly. I think it is one of the more important ones we've had. I can see the need for it, and it's timely. First, I would like to go back in time. When I was a young man growing up in the rural area, our contact with the big city was very, very minimal. We held all the sights of the city in awe on those rare occasions when we got there.

I'm sure the city folks gawked at the country bumpkins in return, because we probably looked out of place. As time went on, urban and rural contact grew. The life-styles today are comparable. My grandchildren from the farm could pass for a city kid anytime. There are no differences between them now. Mr. Speaker, you are asking what this has to do with international business? Well, like the country bumpkin of 50 years ago, we are going to be out of place in the international cities if we don't have the knowledge and expertise to fit in, and we will be viewed as backward and rural.

Our young people who are going to be involved in international business must be prepared for it, and that

1000 ALBERTA HANSARD May 14, 1985 means they should be able to prepare at home in their own province. Mr. Speaker, our international trade is growing, and we are an active province in world business. Because the trend is toward increased international contact, more and more of our population is going to be involved in active partic­ ipation. They need the opportunity to be trained in inter­ national business and management techniques.

Because there is no such training in Canada and no university on the prairies offering international business programs, our youth are at a disadvantage and must either forgo such training or seek such training abroad. Why should they travel abroad for an education that we should be providing right here? The other loss to us is that many of these young people may move elsewhere to get an education and then remain there to work, depriving us of educated and progressive businesspeople. Mr.

Speaker, because the University of Alberta already has extensive facilities — libraries and so forth — it would be a good location for such a school. That way even people who will not be actively involved in international business can pick up some courses in order to improve their under­ standing of how international business works; and that knowledge can then be transferred to other areas. Several years ago, Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Municipal Affairs was the Minister of Education, a team came to Alberta to view the educational process.

I very well remember the Minister of Education of that day asking what possessed them to come to Alberta, seeing that there are nine other provinces and 50 states in North America. They said it was highly recommended that they come to Alberta. That is a good indication that our education here is viewed as the highest on this continent. I think this addition would go very far. Mr. Speaker, our forefathers recognized the need for an education, and they made great strides in that area. Today we recognize the need to go beyond our borders and participate in the world community.

International business rules our very existence, and people in all walks of life are affected by it. Being from a rural area, I recognize that international markets affect the farmers I represent. They must be knowledgeable about world markets and prices for their grains, because it affects what they grow and when they'll sell. Their success depends on their understanding of the world commodity situation. In order to participate in the work in the community, Mr. Speaker, we must be well prepared and well armed for the competition.

We will have an edge on other regions if we have people trained for it, especially if they are trained in our own locale. For these reasons, Mr. Speaker, I strongly support this motion and urge other members to support it. MR. SZWENDER: Mr. Speaker, I as well would like to rise this afternoon and add a few comments on Motion 216, proposed by the Member for Edmonton Gold Bar. I must commend the member for bringing forward the motion and elucidating in such able fashion the many pertinent points regarding the establishment of the international business education school.

Possibly I could address this motion in two parts: that of urging the government to consider certain action and, the second part, that the school be located at the University of Alberta. After listening to the Member for Edmonton Gold Bar, I have to ask the rhetorical question, "Would you buy a used telephone company from that man?" I was rather unconvinced before he rose in his place and spoke at length. I have to say that his arguments convinced me that the University of Alberta is the best place. However, I will elaborate more completely on that point in a moment, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly we have to consider the University of Lethbridge as an alternative. The city of Lethbridge has two very capable members of this Legislature who may wish to rise and speak on behalf of Lethbridge. I don't think that's really necessary. I was pleased to see that the Member for Vegreville also was able to rise and add some very important and pertinent points. I'm relieved that he didn't suggest we establish a University of Vegreville specifically with the intention of locating the business school at that site.

With regard to urging the government of Alberta to consider this action, I believe the departments and ministers that would have the greatest involvement and input in establishing the school — that is, Advanced Education, Economic Development, and Tourism and Small Business — are quite aware of the very important necessity of taking action in this matter as quickly as possible, without allowing any more time to pass by. We recognize that we are in a really crucial period of time in the history of our province.

If we permit the competition — and that includes other provinces and other countries, on an international level — we will further fall behind in competing for the markets that are so important in protecting the livelihood and economy of our province. I am confident that the ministers involved recognize the crucial decision-making that's involved and the action we expect as quickly as possible. If there are members who may not be convinced of the recognition accorded this resolution, I could bring up a couple of very salient points, one raised by the Hon.

Hugh Planche, Minister of Economic Development, who in his 1984 estimates stated: Someone asked about an international business school. I have long been an exponent of that. I think it's essential for anyone who is going to be a player in the Pacific Rim . . . If we're going to be a partner in that trading basin, it's absolutely crucial that we have some business leaders who are familiar. So the Minister of Economic Development, as one example, recognizes that importance. Next, the Premier has also endorsed the concept of the international business school.

In his speech at the Pacific Rim Opportunities Conference in October 1983, he stated: Let's look at the longer view in Canada — let's reassess our education and training course content, particularly in the post-secondary area, to assure that the younger generation can, as they must, compete in this dynamic and different world marketplace by the late 80s and early 90s.

Finally, as recognition of the necessity for the estab­ lishment of the school is the government's own white paper, which is really a compilation of ideas from various depart­ ments into a proposed course of action for the next five years of this decade, 1985 to 1990. If we don't establish a firm foothold in those international markets, supported by such an international business school located here in Alberta and specifically at the University of Alberta here in the city of Edmonton, then we will further lose ground to other parts of the world.

In response to the white paper, the University of Alberta has put forward another proposal for an Alberta institute of international business or international affairs. It would have much of the infrastructure necessary to support such an institution. I won't go into all the details

May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1001 about the school itself, as the Member for Edmonton Gold Bar has very capably outlined that. I think the key word we should look at at this point, Mr. Speaker, is "education", because that is the key to unlocking many of the difficulties we have faced in the past and opening doors of opportunities for the future. Education is so very, very vital to it. The changes in our world are occurring so very quickly. They are symptoms of a shift common to all industrial countries. That shift is from blue-collar production of goods to white-collar knowledge-intensive work.

The greater emphasis in advanced industrial societies is in creating wealth rather than distributing it. That was possibly a popular notion of the '60s. Economists from other parties have brought those ideas of distributing wealth rather than creating it. I believe our government has come to grips that the only way we're going to improve the economic standing and standard of living of our province is through increased activity at so many very different levels.

Again, that takes us back to education and preparing our students to take an active and important role on behalf of our province and the business community in meeting those challenges. Certainly a lot has been said about Edmonton's partic­ ipation in this business school, and the Member for Edmonton Gold Bar has pointed out many, many very strong reasons why the school should be located in Edmonton. In addition, the private sector, in conjunction with the government, has done a lot of very important work at this point in setting the stage for the development of such a school.

For example, the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce is extremely active in the international arena, not only in setting up seminars and bringing to the city knowledgeable and internationally known speakers but also in committing funds, particularly a $50,000 endowment at the University of Alberta's business faculty. We have corporations like Edmonton Northlands, which is the home of many international shows, some of which have already been mentioned. They are always acting strongly in support of Alberta's position in the international mar­ ketplace.

Very soon, Edmonton Northlands will become a member of the world trade centre organization, which will give them even more access to information on trade shows and events of that nature. Very quickly, there's the Asia- Pacific Foundation, which is doing extremely good work. Of course, the natural advantage the University of Alberta has is its proximity to government centre, right across the river, in which much of the support from government departments would be located. I can see that one of my colleagues from Calgary is not taking too kindly to my words.

I don't know why he is making certain motions, unless he wants me to cut my remarks shorter than I would like to. He's possibly of the nature that the school should be located in Calgary. I've already taken the position that Edmonton would be the proper location, and there's one very good reason for that, Mr. Speaker. Calgarians are going to be extremely busy over the next three or four years preparing for the Olympics. I just don't think they'll have the time to put in to establish this particular school.

That will take the full-time concen­ tration and efforts of people located here, the support provided by the government. In that respect I think Cal­ garians should be pretty happy to wait for 1988 and prepare all the necessary arrangements prior to that. That will keep them busy. It's a full-time job, and I certainly wouldn't want to overburden my colleagues and their constituents in Calgary. Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to briefly go over once again the benefits of an international business school.

Some of these points have been looked at by previous speakers, but it's important to recognize why Alberta would benefit so greatly from this type of facility. First of all, it would improve the skills of Alberta businesspeople in international business and thus improve their performance in the inter­ national arena. Clearly that's the most important objective. It would allow young Albertans to take international business training, which would enable them to move into business opportunities requiring a knowledge of the international scene. More and more future jobs are going to lie in this area.

There's no other comparable school of this type at present in Canada, and so once again Alberta would be taking an innovative leadership role. The only question I have, Mr. Speaker, is regarding the scale of involvement for this school. It's been identified in the resolution as an international business education insti­ tution, but I'm still not clear what that means. Would the school operate on a scale to provide opportunities for Albertans only and to meet the needs of the Alberta business community and the Alberta government in going out and selling the province of Alberta and its products?

Or would we try to establish an international institution with an international reputation, attracting students from wherever in the world or from other parts of Canada and having a high calibre or reputation? That may be difficult because of the very fierce, competitive nature of business schools in the United States, which are larger, serve a larger market, and are often in a much better position to pay the kinds of salaries people with skills, reputation, and academic training are attracted to.

That is a difficulty I see if we try to make it too large or expand its jurisdiction in too great a fashion without more information on this matter. We would not want to see it fail to meet the expectations of people supporting it. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate once again that the location is extremely important. The previous speaker from Edmonton Gold Bar indicated why he believes Edmonton would be most suited for it, and I have a number of reasons I would like to add to that. But in view of the time and the fact that the next motion is extremely important, I move that we adjourn debate.

MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is it agreed that the debate be adjourned? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is so ordered. 203. Moved by Mr. Oman:

Be it resolved that the Assembly urge the government to consider new systems for the delivery of medical services that would (

a) allow nurses and other health care professionals to authorize the provision of health care services, and (

b) recognize the use of private clinics and other services which might be more efficient and thus less costly than the traditional doctor/hospital orientation. [Adjourned debate March 26: Mr. Gogo] MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, the last day I spoke on this motion, I made comments relative to the high cost of the

1002 ALBERTA HANSARD May 14, 1985 present system we have in place. I'd like to continue from there and perhaps explore some options. First of all, I think the Member for Calgary North Hill has displayed a certain empathy to the whole area of medical care that not many of us fully appreciate. I've learned from experience that he's a man who has a particular interest not only in people but in people's problems, and I think he put a lot of thought into this motion.

The Calgary North Hill area of the city in particular has a significant number of senior citizens, and when he put the motion forward, I think he put within that motion some words that tend to aim at a particular group of our citizens. And I think he's right on. For example, if I may repeat part of the motion, he wants to "allow nurses and other health care profes­ sionals" to be authorized to provide health care services. He hasn't really defined the other health care professionals, but I'm sure I know what he means. I think the second

part is really the operative part: recognize the use of private clinics and other services which might be more efficient and thus less costly than the traditional doctor/hospital [relationship]. Mr. Speaker, I think that over the years we in this country have been very fortunate with regard to medical care, with or without the medical care system. Last Saturday I was at a function with a 74-year-old retired physician who was telling me the miracles of medical care. He moved to Lethbridge in 1972. He has about 14 letters behind his name, which probably racks up with most everybody in the province and the country.

He was saying how well he felt he did in 1962, which was four years after medicare; he earned $12,000. As members know, the average payment today is in excess of $12,000 per month, so medicare has obviously rewarded people pretty handsomely. If one takes the annual report of $609 million paid out to practitioners and takes out chiropractors, optometrists, podiatrists, and the other so-called practitioners, you'll find that some $475 million has gone to medical practitioners — i.e. physicians — in this province, which indicates that on balance they're probably adequately compensated. They obviously wouldn't agree.

I made a suggestion in the esti­ mates of Hospitals and Medical Care that maybe it's time we published, like British Columbia does, a book showing what each physician in this province has received, in much the same way that members of this House have payments published, indicating what they have received from the public purse. That's not the gist, though, of what I want to talk about, Mr. Speaker. At the outset I want to point out that in Canada we have some 42,000 doctors, of which 60 percent, or some 25,000, are located in two provinces.

So before we move too hastily with regard to changing the system, we should probably give some thought to those parts of the country outside the 49th parallel that really don't have too much access to physicians as we know them. As has been said before in this House, we are faced with an ever increasing aging population. We know that aging people tend to make five or six times the average claim that young people do against the health care system.

Again, that brings in a certain element in terms of cost, because if we look at the occupancy of our hospitals, we'll find that the majority of those seniors in certain locales — Wetaskiwin is the highest per capita in Alberta with seniors, followed by Lethbridge and other areas — are in our hospitals. So it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that we tend to always relate to why the health care system is going to fail. I don't know why it's going to fail, but the proponents of the American system are going to convince us it's going to fail.

I don't know of any bankruptcies in this country last year because they couldn't pay a health bill. America has 25,000 of them. They spend 10 percent of their gross national product on the system, and we're still under 8. Yet for some reason, if we're not careful, we're going to end up like England. We keep hearing these gloom and doom stories, and as a result of that, we in the House are very reluctant to experiment. The Member for Calgary North Hill has brought forward an excellent proposal, I think. What an opportunity to experiment! We fund our health units. We sure print some big stories about them.

They're the greatest thing in pre­ vention since sliced bread, yet we give them probably the postage budget of medicare — about $92 million — and expect those health unit nurses to do everything. Here we're dealing with a budget of some $2.3 billion, and that's where the problem is, if it's a problem financially. We seem to be reluctant to look for ways to reduce that. The Member for Calgary North Hill has a proposal before us that I think can reduce that in a very real way. We have excellent physicians in this province, probably some 3,500 very capable people.

I think we also are told that of the 95,000 claims — it's not published in this year's annual report; maybe it's embarrassing now. We used to have 95,000 claims a working day at health care. I suspect they're over 100,000. There are people who make claims against the health care system, payments only to be received by practitioners under the Act. I'm told that maybe as many as seven out of 10 walk into physicians offices for problems above their shoulder blades. If that's true, if it's psychosomatic, do we really need a qualified physician, a member of the College of Physicians and Surgeons, to determine that?

Could we not use somebody that the Member for Calgary North Hill proposes? I think there's a lot of merit in that. We've come out with medicentres. There's one up the street. Has it really reduced the health care cost? I think there are referrals to the University Hospital. It's probably an add-on cost. The criticism of the member's motion that I've heard around this House is that it's another add-on cost. Is it really? We're so quick to make judgments without trying it. The member is simply saying to us, "Why don't we try it?" In that context, I'd like to make three brief comments.

First of all, we've seen the utilization study done in this province — the green book that no one's been able to unravel. I think we paid $300,000 for the answers, and we haven't got them yet. Why are surgical procedures 50 percent higher in Alberta than anywhere else in Canada? Nurses, by the way, don't do surgical procedures, so let's not blame the nurses. We haven't got the answer to that. We went as far as Toronto to hire some brains to determine it, and we still haven't got the answer. That's a fact. You cannot argue with pathologists' findings that surgery takes place.

The separations from that book tell you. Nurses don't do that, and yet for some reason, we're reluctant to say, "Hey, how about trying nurses in the health delivery system." Oh no, it's an add-on cost; you don't dare. Secondly, Mr. Chairman, under Dr. Blair and others, the Calgary General hospital, the greatest rehabilitation centre west of Toronto, has a very excellent system of rehabilitation for those who are unfortunate enough to have lost limbs and so on. What do they do? They use a team approach of four or five people, and a nurse is very prominent within that team.

So she or he plays a very significant role. They're obviously qualified for that.

May 14, 1985 ALBERTA HANSARD 1003 It seems to me that we're looking at more and more of our population aging. In America they say two-thirds of the Medicaid system — that's for aging people — is paid in the last 10 months of a person's life. I think it's something like $20 billion. Does anybody in their right mind think they're getting good mileage using dollars for that in Amer­ ica. As members know, the governor of Colorado spoke some time ago about their having to priorize expenditures for health care in America. He was almost hung in effigy for endorsing euthanasia.

It seems to me that we continue to get all kinds of experts who know all the answers, and yet the people in charge of the system, the College of Physicians and Surgeons on the one hand and the medical specialists on the other hand — my figures indicate that 18,000 members of the Alberta Association of Registered Nurses have put forward a proposal simply saying, "Why don't you give us a try?" That's all they're saying. It seems to me that we really couldn't go wrong if we got nurses — not in the technical diagnostic area with CAT scans and so on; that's not what they're saying.

They're saying that a significant number of problems today are going via the physicians office and are ending up at either the Lethbridge Regional hospital at $300 a day or the University of Alberta hospital, the largest hospital in Canada, at $850 a day. That's where they're going. If we could only take 2 or 4 or 6 percent of these people who perceive that they have problems and let a health professional such as a nurse look at them, maybe we could save untold millions of dollars. As I indicated before in this House, Mr. Speaker, we have some 50,000 births in this province.

To me, hospitals are synonymous with illness. Birthing has to be one of the most natural functions in the world. Even we didn't invent that. Yet we insist in putting it in a structure called an illness centre at heaven knows how many dollars a day. We still have the proud record, I think, of being 15th in the world in infant mortality; it's a long way from the top. And we think our medical system of deliveri