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June 18, 1996

36th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

L090 - Tue 18 Jun 1996 / Mar 18 Jun 1996

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

OBSTETRICAL CARE

LOVE TO READ WEEK

UNCLE TOM'S CABIN

IN-LINE SKATING

MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGER

DURHAM HUSKIES

NORTHERN ONTARIO

MALPRACTICE INSURANCE

JIM ROBERTSON

ANNUAL REPORT, OFFICE OF THE OMBUDSMAN

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

ONTARIO WORKS

ORAL QUESTIONS

YOUNG OFFENDERS

VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION

YOUNG OFFENDERS

HOUSING CONSULTANTS

AGRICULTURE INSPECTION

WORKFARE

WINE INDUSTRY STANDARDS

VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS

AGRICULTURE INSPECTION

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

MALPRACTICE INSURANCE

PETITIONS

FAMILY SUPPORT OFFICES

MINIMUM WAGE

JUSTICE SYSTEM

LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD OF ONTARIO

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

INJURED WORKERS

SERVICES DE SANTÉ ET DE SÉCURITÉ AU TRAVAIL

DRINKING AND DRIVING

EDUCATION FINANCING

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION

BEAR HUNTING

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

DELZAP CONSTRUCTION LIMITED ACT, 1996

BANK OF NOVA SCOTIA TRUST COMPANY ACT, 1996

SAFETY AND CONSUMER STATUTES ADMINISTRATION ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR L'APPLICATION DE CERTAINES LOIS TRAITANT DE SÉCURITÉ ET DE SERVICES AUX CONSOMMATEURS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE RATE STABILITY ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LA STABILITÉ DES TAUX D'ASSURANCE-AUTOMOBILE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 MODIFIANT DES LOIS EN CE QUI CONCERNE LE MINISTÈRE DE L'AGRICULTURE, DE L'ALIMENTATION ET DES AFFAIRES RURALES

MINISTRY OF NATURAL RESOURCES STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 MODIFIANT DES LOIS EN CE QUI CONCERNE LE MINISTÈRE DES RICHESSES NATURELLES

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L'ÉDUCATION

The House met at 1333.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

OBSTETRICAL CARE

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): The Minister of Health has announced he will restore the government's contribution towards malpractice insurance for Ontario's 23,000 physicians. I hope the minister's actions are not too late.

I asked the minister: "What took you so long? Why did you make women worry? Why didn't you listen to the advice you were given?"

Last December, over six months ago, the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario warned you just where your actions regarding the removal of CMPA would lead.

Last month when I raised the issue of the obstetrical crisis you had created, I suggested that you immediately reinstate malpractice payments, yet it took you until today, June 18, to make this announcement. I guess when you're a hothead and you think you know all the answers, like the Minister of Health does, it is very difficult to take advice offered and to admit you made a mistake.

Minister, your dictatorial Bill 26 scrapped negotiations between the Ministry of Health and the Ontario Medical Association, but today you say that this announcement is the first step stemming from a renewed dialogue between the ministry and the OMA.

I only hope that the minister was not too late in understanding that if you want to have a good working environment, it is better to sit down with your partners and try and negotiate rather than arbitrarily imposing what you feel is best and then being forced to recant.

I hope the minister will learn from his mistakes and stop creating crises. I only wonder if your mistake on user fees for drugs and your arbitrarily imposed cuts to hospitals will wind up being an even larger crisis.

LOVE TO READ WEEK

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): On June 7 I joined the grade 7 and 8 students at St Ann's school in my riding of Hamilton Centre to celebrate Love to Read Week, and as a team we created a top 10 list of why students in Ontario should learn to read well.

I want to advise my colleagues in the House that the students are watching today's session live in their classroom and I know you'd want to join me in welcoming them to the provincial Parliament here in Ontario.

The top 10 reasons why students in Ontario should learn to read well:

(10) For your legal and personal protection.

(9) To help you use your imagination.

(8) For entertainment and fun.

(7) To learn different things.

(6) To extend our knowledge.

(5) To know what's going on in the world.

(4) Job and life skills.

(3) To expand your vocabulary.

(2) Writing and communication.

(1) For a better education.

I want to thank the students: Melissa, Daniele, Don, Joseph, Ferdinand, Mark, Jason, Andrew, Nicholas, Anna, Stephanie, Nicole, Izabel, David, Anna, Kathy, Daniel, Cory, Amanda, Brooks, Luigi, Joseph, Kaila, Huy and Jennifer; and principal, Carolyn McCann; principal intern, Sandi Annibale; and the teacher in the classroom, Pat Codispoda.

I want to thank the students who are watching right now and the teachers for the opportunity to be with them. It was an excellent session and I know they've learned a lot by participating and appreciate the welcome that the members here have given them today.

UNCLE TOM'S CABIN

Mr Jack Carroll (Chatham-Kent): A few weeks ago it was my pleasure to attend, along with the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Tourism, the Honourable William Saunderson, the official opening of Uncle Tom's Cabin historic site in Dresden.

Rev Josiah Henson, a slave in the United States for the first 41 years of his life, escaped to Upper Canada via the Underground Railroad in 1830. With the aid of abolitionists and church groups, he was able to purchase 200 acres of land near Dresden where over the years he established a refuge for other fugitives of slavery.

Under Henson's leadership the British American Institute was established, Canada's first industrial school, dedicated to the advancement of slaves and others in the general population.

As many readers know, the life of Rev Henson provided the inspiration for the novel Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe.

Now operated by the St Clair Parkway Commission, the Henson home and other buildings on the site have been restored in recent years.

The restoration, complete with historic artefacts and improved facilities at the site to accommodate and educate visitors, has resulted in a significant increase in tourists at the location over the past three years.

I'd like to take this opportunity to encourage all members of this Legislature, indeed all Ontarians, to take some time this summer to visit Uncle Tom's Cabin in Dresden with their families, to see at first hand the importance of black history and culture in this province.

IN-LINE SKATING

Mr Robert Chiarelli (Ottawa West): Members will know that Friday marks the first day of summer, the prime season for the fastest-growing leisure activity in North America, in-line skating or rollerblading.

Unfortunately, 80% of the growing number of injuries in this activity are to skaters not wearing full safety equipment.

This reality hit home with the recent tragic death of Carl Gillis, a young man of 26 years who died of massive head injuries after falling while in-line skating in Ottawa. Carl was not wearing a helmet at the time, a factor which quite probably could have saved his life. Our hearts go out to the friends and family of Carl, a respected staff member of federal cabinet minister John Manley.

It is my view we must do much more to promote proper education and provide more information to the public.

I have in my hand a video recently produced by the Canadian In-Line Skating Trade Association in cooperation with St John's Ambulance and others. Entitled Get in Line, this video includes important safety tips and promotes the use of full safety equipment and the selection of safe skating areas.

This valuable safety video should be widely circulated. I have therefore arranged to have it distributed to all members for their use, and I strongly urge the Minister of Transportation to initiate a province-wide in-line skating education program to help protect our youth.

MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGER

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): I must say, as an opposition MPP it has been a great concern of mine that this government makes announcements in our constituencies without notifying local members, without inviting local members to be part of those announcements. The latest announcement in Windsor where that was the case, where I was told less than 24 hours before the announcement was to be made, was by the Attorney General for the courthouse in Windsor which, in fact, is the courthouse that we had approved and was already under construction and this government put a halt to. This government put a halt to it, and now they're backing away from full funding of that courthouse.

Today it is my pleasure, because I know I won't be invited to the event on Thursday, to announce that the government will be reaffirming the announcement that our government had already made that an MRI will be funded with operating dollars in Windsor. This is a project that MPPs in the Windsor area have worked for for a long time as part of the reconfiguration announcement, and was funded by the previous government. The government's going to reannounce it on Thursday. The government will be putting $150,000 into operating costs and the local community will be raising $2 million for the capital.

I'm pleased to make this announcement today because I know the minister will be playing the typical Tory game and will not be inviting any of the local MPPs.

DURHAM HUSKIES

Mr Bill Murdoch (Grey-Owen Sound): I rise today to crush the fear of Ontarians that our great sport of hockey is picking up and moving south to warmer climates like Tampa Bay and Anaheim. In fact, hockey is alive and well in this province, especially in my riding of Grey-Owen Sound. To prove this, look no further than Durham where a new Metro Junior "A" franchise is preparing for its first season. The Durham Huskies have just been approved by the league and will start competing this fall.

Although the team may be new, the name isn't. In fact, the nickname "Huskies" is well known in local hockey circles and is a tribute to almost 70 years of hockey tradition in Durham.

The Huskies will be scouting local talent to fill this team. This should be an easy task, as the hockey talent pool runs deep in Grey and Bruce counties.

For the past seven years, the Owen Sound Platers of the Ontario Hockey League have been delighting fans with exciting hockey action. In fact, five Platers, including Kirk Maltby of the Detroit Red Wings, have moved on to careers in the NHL.

Owen Sound also has the Greys, who recently made it to the finals in midwestern Junior "B" hockey; and in Grey and Bruce counties the western Junior "C" league is booming, with seven teams competing in towns like Hanover, Mount Forest and Wiarton.

Other teams wooing fans belong to the Grey-Bruce Highlander Triple-A system, which operates across the two counties.

So I would like to congratulate the Durham Huskies for joining the proud tradition of hockey in Grey county. Skate hard and keep your stick on the ice.

NORTHERN ONTARIO

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): The north is angry. They are finally listening to me and the other northern Liberal caucus members. Today, over 180 mayors and reeves from all across northern Ontario have been invited to meet in Sudbury to discuss ways to deal with the Harris government's unfair treatment of the north. These leaders have been drawn together, by necessity, by Sudbury mayor Jim Gordon, a former Tory member and cabinet minister.

This government does not understand how truly different the north is and how their unfair treatment of the north is hurting all northerners.

Northern Ontario has 31% less tax assessment per household than the south.

Unemployment in the north is 18% to 20% higher than the south.

Social and family services programs are 22% more costly in the north.

Winter control costs are 23% higher.

Storm sewer costs are 46% higher.

Parks and recreation service delivery is 57% higher.

Health service costs are 57% more in the north.

The mayors and reeves of northern Ontario realize the damage the Harris government is doing to our cities and towns and are angry over the Tories "Who Does What Panel" because it has no elected northern members. Who better understands who should be doing what in the north than the elected representatives of northern Ontario?

It's time this government listened to the north. Change the composition of the "Who Does What Panel."

MALPRACTICE INSURANCE

Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt): I rise to comment on the decision of the Minister of Health that he would now be paying the premiums for the malpractice insurance for all physicians in the province of Ontario.

I can understand why the minister didn't make his announcement here in the Legislature because there would have been injury to ourselves as we fell off our chairs laughing at the minister. He's been told far and wide that what he should have done was waited until Chief Justice Dubin had made his report on the whole issue before he arbitrarily cancelled the government payment for those premiums. But no, no, this minister went ahead. He doesn't believe in consultation.

I've heard government members on the other side say: "We're not going to make the mistake the NDP government made of consulting with everybody before you made decisions. We know what we want. We're going to go ahead and do it."

Well, here's the Minister of Health; he arbitrarily made that decision, didn't consult with anybody, created a crisis for women in this province, entirely of his own making. He didn't consult on the appointment of members to district health councils all across the province, arbitrarily goes ahead and puts his hacks in those positions without consultation with the district health councils. He didn't consult with anybody when he made changes to the regulations on public laboratories in hospitals.

This is a good lesson, I hope, for the minister and I hope it's the last time he'll be allowed to create a crisis of his own making.

JIM ROBERTSON

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): I rise in the House today to honour an outstanding teacher in my riding, Mr Robertson. Jim is a member of a team of educators which recently received Nortel's National Institute Award. This award is given to those who encourage interest in science and technology in Canadian schools.

Jim was instrumental in the creation of the NewsOntario project along with his counterparts from the city of London Board of Education and the Simcoe County Board of Education. Jim worked at Ingersoll District Collegiate Institute while creating the project and is presently on staff at Glendale High School.

NewsOntario gives students of all ages an opportunity to produce their own newspapers and newsletters via a province-wide computer network. Through this unique project, students become news gatherers, reporters, analysts, editors, typists, layout artists and publishers of their own publications. Not only do students write articles, they post them on the network to be shared across Ontario.

Through NewsOntario students are also able to access stories written by other students to use in their own school newsletters and newspapers.

Through this unique project students from the most isolated parts of the province can get up-to-date news information from schools throughout any of their ridings.

This project is an excellent means for students to not only learn more about their own communities and schools but across Ontario.

Jim has been recognized by Nortel for his efforts to improve the educational opportunities of our children. On behalf of all the residents of Oxford and throughout the province, I would like to congratulate him and all the members of his team for their efforts.

ANNUAL REPORT, OFFICE OF THE OMBUDSMAN

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): I beg to inform the House that I have today laid upon the table the annual report of the Ombudsman of Ontario, 1995-96.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

ONTARIO WORKS

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Minister of Community and Social Services): I'd like to bring forward to the House today this government's vision of the social services system of the future, one that invests in people and helps them to break the cycle of dependency on welfare.

Last week, we announced Ontario Works. Today, I'm announcing the supports that, together with our work-for-welfare program of community service, will help people receiving welfare get back to work.

The total Ontario Works package is built on a vision of people actively working towards becoming self-sufficient and full participants in the life of their communities.

There are three ways Ontario Works will help recipients get paid jobs. The first is a new approach for government that focuses on results -- positive results for people on welfare. Job agencies will be contracted to help people on welfare find jobs, but they will only be paid when they produce results. That means recipients must be placed successfully into jobs.

The second will give people receiving welfare the support they need to find a paid job on their own.

Thirdly, my ministry will restructure existing employment programs to focus energy and resources to better serve people on welfare in getting jobs.

It comes back to our belief that we have to move social assistance in this province from a handout to a hand up. With the right supports, welfare recipients can find their way to self-reliance.

I'd like now to review some of the specifics. Under Ontario Works, job agencies will be paid a deposit of $200 up front to find a job for a recipient. The deposit must be paid back if they are not able to place the person into a job. The job agency receives two more payments, one after the recipient has been working for three months and another after six months. The payment will be a percentage of the welfare savings realized. The job agency will receive a maximum of $1,200 for successfully placing a single employable person into a job.

This is truly a new way of doing business in Ontario.

This government believes in small business, and we know many people on welfare have good ideas for their own businesses that would get them off the system.

Ontario Works will refer recipients with potential business ideas to agencies that specialize in helping entrepreneurs. These agencies will be paid only if they produce results and the recipient's business becomes established.

Through Ontario Works, recipients will also have access to the tools they need to find a job in the 1990s, including computers to generate résumés, fax machines and computer job banks.

The recipients will also be given the chance to participate in job clubs and workshops on ways to find the jobs or to get information about their local labour market. They'll also be referred to available job openings and have access to training staff who will be available to offer advice on finding a job.

Some recipients may need basic education or skills training. These people will be referred to proven basic education and training programs that are already available in their communities. Basic education could include taking courses to complete high school, improve language skills or upgrade reading, writing and math skills.

Skills training must be linked to jobs available in today's labour market. We will not support training for the sake of training.

We know only too well that many employment programs just have not got the job done. Ontario Works is not only a new way of doing business, it's a better way of doing business, because it meets the needs of welfare recipients.

Ontario Works will start up this summer in 20 municipalities that make up phase 1. Building on our experience, we will announce the second phase of Ontario Works this fall, and by 1998 the program will be fully implemented across the province.

Two years ago, we made a commitment to introduce a new vision for welfare for this province. We are delivering. The steps we are taking mark the beginning of the end of the cycle of dependency and new hope for people living on welfare.

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): I am somewhat perplexed to hear the minister talk of this being a new way of doing business. What you've announced today is clearly the rehashing of a program that has been in place in municipalities across Ontario. I'm pleased that the minister takes great pleasure, along with the minister's and the Premier's staff, in handing out campaign literature. Maybe I want to remind the minister as well that the program he's talking about already exists throughout Ontario.

Three years ago, when I was chairman of health and social services in Hamilton-Wentworth, we, along with the Minister of Community and Social Services, Tony Silipo, had a program in Hamilton called JobLink. Do you know what that did? It was a job club. It did exactly what you are talking about today as being a new way of doing things.

What you've acknowledged today is clearly a failure of any new ideas. What you've announced today is a failure of any new way of dealing with the welfare problem in Ontario. You have taken programs that municipalities have worked on over the years, that previous governments have worked on over the years, and repackaged them.

You talk about the 10 lost years, you love to do that, but you have no problem going back to the programs that worked in those 10 lost years, reintroducing them, repackaging them, and making it look like you're doing something to help welfare recipients. What you've announced today is a joke. It is an absolute joke. You have no new way of helping welfare recipients. You just continue to beat up on welfare recipients. You continue to perpetuate the myth that they're lazy and don't want to work, and you're going to fix them.

You understand clearly from what you've announced today that the failure of this government when it comes to dealing with welfare reform is clearly the failure of this government in relation to job creation. You again fail to understand that the way you deal with the welfare problem in Ontario is by ensuring there are jobs for welfare recipients. We have job centres; we have access to fax machines right now throughout this province for people on welfare; we have access to computer job links; we have access to photocopiers. What we don't have access to is jobs, and this is where you're failing once again.

It's interesting, as we see the announcement, to talk about the bounty you're going to pay to agencies. Two weeks ago, you and your senior hacks and flunkeys denied that there was going to be a bounty, that there was going to be a headhunting fee paid. You denied that you were going to bribe agencies and the placing counsellors into placing people into employment opportunities. What do we see today? You're going to pay agencies a bribe of up to $1,200 when they place an individual into a work setting.

Two weeks ago you said we were wrong. Well, you were wrong. You were wrong when you said welfare recipients could earn back their cuts. In effect, they weren't able to until we forced you to change your legislation. You were wrong when you said seniors and the disabled were not going to have their benefits cut. Still today there are 11,000 seniors and disabled who have had their benefits cut, and continue to, because you have not moved them into a protected category.

Minister, how can you sit there and justify a headhunting fee, how can you sit there and justify an outright bribe to municipalities, to agencies, to place individuals into programs? You have not put one cent into new training dollars for agencies. You have not put one cent into incentives for the private sector to hire welfare recipients. You've done none of that. All you've talked about is giving agencies 1,200 bucks if they can place somebody and displace a paid job. Then you have talked about painting swings and park benches and pavilions, again without really understanding the real welfare problem in Ontario today.

The minister thinks it's funny. The minister laughs. The fact that there are hundreds of thousands of welfare recipients who are unemployed and want a job -- this minister thinks it's funny. Minister, maybe you can point out to us today how many jobs this is going to create. Maybe you can point out today how many new opportunities there will be for welfare recipients.

You have once again failed. You've failed miserably. You've failed welfare recipients in Ontario. What you have done today is very simply repackaged old programs. You have no new ideas. You're totally bankrupt when it comes to finding new ways of dealing with the welfare problem in Ontario. Frankly, I'm flattered that you'd go back to your bag of tricks, pull out a program that we announced three years ago along with the provincial government, and use that as your big announcement. This is disgraceful and it's a shame.

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): It's a great disappointment that the minister, who says his government had this all envisioned and has been working on this for a year, comes before the Legislature last week and then this week -- and today was supposed to be the overall solution. This was going to be the announcement that would link the philosophy of workfare with the actual workplace. And what has the minister announced today? He's announced JobLink, which was announced by our government several years ago. The Tories said it wouldn't work, couldn't work, they wouldn't support it, and that's exactly what they've put in place today.

The link between the workplace and the community and those who need assistance makes a lot of sense, but I don't know why the minister didn't have the courage to come here today and say, "It was the right thing to do. We're going to take what the previous government was doing, we're going to build on that and we're going to keep JobLink in place," instead of trying to be phoney and using all the statements that things are going to be done in a different way.

The other part of the announcement, where he says they're doing things totally differently than has ever been done before -- take a look at Jobs Ontario Training. The fact of the matter is, the payments that are being made were made in stages. The difference between what this government has announced today is that they're going to give agencies money in order to place individuals in jobs that will last maybe six months. There's no guarantee that they're lasting or permanent jobs whatsoever. There's nothing that's provided in terms of direct on-the-job training.

There are no targets that are announced today in the 20 communities. How many people are going to be placed? How many jobs are going to be created? You don't tell us that at all. How much money is going to be saved? You're talking about only reinvesting the dollars saved. How much money is going to be saved? If you're going to do things in such a different way, why don't you come forward, why don't you just level with the people of this province and tell them that this has nothing to do with the real strategy, that this has everything to do with politics and the attack on the poorest people in this province?

The fact of the matter is, if the government was serious about getting people into the workplace, they would be looking at creating jobs. Let's take a look. When this government was elected in June 1995, there were 504,000 people unemployed in the province and the unemployment rate was 8.8%. In May of this year, there are 526,000 people unemployed and the unemployment rate is 9.1%.

The fact of the matter is that the underlying significant problem is job creation. This government's doing nothing about it at all. They're instead more interested in public opinion polls and a tax on the poor because they know it will deliver votes to them. It's sad.

This minister's incompetence on this file, this minister's incompetence on the file dealing with young offenders that's being raised in this House clearly shows he's not competent enough to be a minister. He should be out of cabinet and somebody who has compassion and a strategy to help poor people in this province should be the Minister of Community and Social Services.

Mr Tony Silipo (Dovercourt): What a difference a year makes on what was Mike Harris's central plank in the election, that they had all the answers around workfare, around getting people back to work. We see today a pitiful announcement from the Minister of Community and Social Services that will do nothing to decrease the number of people who depend on social assistance in this province.

We have seen the very strong position taken during the election watered down to a point where the very best the minister can do today is to come in and announce diluted versions of programs we had put in place, and not even have the decency to give us the credit for the good things we did. He waters those down even more by ensuring that all he's going to do with his six months' work program is move people off welfare and on to the unemployment insurance rolls, so he's shifting off his responsibility to the federal government.

That's not going to help people who are on welfare. That's not going to help people who need to get support. What is going to help them are the jobs you promised to create, and that you are not creating, the 725,000 jobs you promised during the election, which are not coming, and the people of this province will be the worse for it.

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Mr Speaker, point of order.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): The member for Sudbury on a point of order, briefly.

Mr Bartolucci: During the response to the ministerial statement, the member for Hamilton East was constantly heckled, Mr Speaker --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. There's nothing out of order. The member will --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Sit down. I've heard the member's point of order and he doesn't have a point of order.

Mr Cooke: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: The member had the courtesy to wait till after the statements to raise what is a legitimate point of order. Every day we're now having responses to ministerial statements where you keep order for the minister's statement and you let the Tory benches go wild in our responses.

The Speaker: Time for oral question period.

ORAL QUESTIONS

YOUNG OFFENDERS

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services. It again concerns the coverup surrounding the beating of youths at the Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre.

On February 29, teenagers were beaten while they were in the custody of your ministry. You, Minister, did not order a police investigation until more than three months later. You've told this House the reason you moved so slowly to deal with the beatings at Elgin-Middlesex is because nobody told you what had happened. You say your deputy knew about the beatings, but didn't tell you. You say your staff knew about the beatings through phone calls from a parent, but they didn't tell you. You say the Deputy Minister of Community and Social Services knew about the beatings, but that minister now claims he wasn't told either.

So I want to again pursue the issue of who knew what. I ask you whether your acting deputy, your full-time deputy, or the Deputy Minister of Community and Social Services, any one of those, informed the secretary to cabinet, Rita Burak, about the beatings and whether Miss Burak then informed the Premier.

Hon Bob Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): I've indicated -- the Leader of the Opposition suggests we moved very slowly with respect to this matter -- I think it's been indicated by the child advocate that everything that could have been done was done with respect to a response to the incarceration of young offenders in an adult institution and the concerns she had with respect to maltreatment of those young offenders upon arrival at Elgin-Middlesex.

To suggest that there was some sort of slow reaction or coverup with respect to that, I think again I can simply advise her to have a chat with the child advocate, who once again has been saying this for at least two and a half weeks now, but the opposition parties, for whatever reasons, are declining to have that conversation.

With respect to any conversations that may have occurred related to the acting deputy minister and the cabinet secretary, I'm not privy to those sorts of communications.

Mrs McLeod: Minister, the question, a very straightforward question which you rather studiously avoided, was whether or not essentially anyone with political accountability, whether you, the Minister of Community and Social Services, or indeed the Premier, was made aware of what had occurred at Elgin-Middlesex.

Last Thursday, Minister, you appeared to be quite certain when you told this House that the Minister of Community and Social Services had been briefed on the beatings at Elgin-Middlesex. The minister now says that he was simply informed on March 4 that there had been a riot at the Bluewater facility for young offenders. I find that a very strange story, Minister, because the Bluewater riot occurred on February 29.

The Minister of Community and Social Services, on March 4, was called by a deputy minister who had just been informed of the very shocking, very disturbing allegations of the beatings at Elgin-Middlesex. She called her minister to brief him on that fact and yet, in spite of the fact that clearly there was a potentially explosive situation, she chose to tell her minister only of a riot which had taken place some five days before and which everyone knew about. Surely even the minister had read about that riot in the newspaper.

Minister, last week, when you answered the question about when your colleague the Minister of Community and Social Services was informed about the beatings, it did not appear that you were simply talking off the top of your head; it didn't appear that you were making assumptions; in fact it appeared that you were reading from a very carefully prepared note, speaking on behalf of your colleague.

I ask you, Minister, on what basis did you make the statement last week that the Minister of Community and Social Services had been briefed on the beatings at Elgin-Middlesex and do you now know whether the Minister of Community and Social Services or the Premier or anyone with any political accountability was in fact told about this very shocking occurrence on March 4?

Hon Mr Runciman: Just to clarify the record with respect to a question from the member for Timiskaming, and I'll put it again on to the record -- "What I want to know is, when did the Deputy Minister of Community and Social Services talk to your deputy minister, and when did the Minister of Community and Social Services talk to you about this incident?" -- I indicated in my response that it was indicated in the letter from the child advocate that she had had a conversation with the acting deputy in my ministry and the deputy at Comsoc with respect to her concerns, and it was indicated to my office that the Minister of Community and Social Services was briefed.

But I indicated in a scrum outside of the House that with respect to the details of that briefing and how extensive it was, they would again have to address those questions to the Minister of Community and Social Services.

Mrs McLeod: This story just seems more and more incredible. The acting deputy for the Solicitor General knew about the allegations of the beatings, the deputy minister in community and social services knew about the allegations of the beatings, the Minister of Community and Social Services was briefed, but the deputy minister somehow forgot to mention that the beatings had taken place and would be in the report of the child advocate. Nobody, including the minister responsible -- yourself, Minister -- the Solicitor General, the minister of corrections, was told about this shocking disturbance.

Minister, I have to tell you that your claims to ignorance seem to be following a pattern. On three very sensitive, potentially explosive issues in your ministry, you have claimed that you are not responsible because nobody told you what was happening. You say that you knew absolutely nothing about the deployment of some 200 heavily armed OPP officers at Ipperwash, which resulted in a fatal shooting, and you claim ignorance even though your staff were present at a top-level meeting the day before the buildup of force took place.

You've said that you knew nothing about the OPP riot squad being called in and subsequently battering civil servants on the grounds of the Legislature, and now you say you knew nothing about the beating of teenagers at a correctional facility, a beating of young people within your custody, even though your deputy minister knew about it and even though your hand-picked staff knew about it.

Minister, in all of these sensitive issues you have claimed ignorance. Time and time again your answer to questions is, "Nobody told me." We have to wonder how it is possible for you as a senior minister of this government to be so much in the dark on these important issues. Is this going to be the pattern for the future? Is your response on every sensitive, difficult issue in your ministry going to be: "Don't blame me. Nobody told me what was happening"?

Hon Mr Runciman: I think again everyone who believes in due process should be offended by what the Leader of the Opposition has just said. She said I knew about beatings. Those are allegations and there's a police investigation under way. For two days in a row the Leader of the Opposition has found these people guilty as charged, without respect of due process.

In respect to the other suggestions that the leader is making reference to, she would be the first on her feet to condemn me and condemn this government if we in any way, shape or form involved ourselves in the operational matters of police services across this province. I think what I've said in respect to those is quite appropriate. It's a process that has been followed and has been respected by Solicitors General of various political stripes and of governments of various political stripes. It's a policy and a principle that I believe in and I would hope that members of the opposition continue to believe in.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): New question, the member for Timiskaming.

Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming): To the same minister, last week I asked you for the complete report of the child advocate's report on this matter. It was released to you and to the Minister of Community and Social Services. You responded, and I'd like to quote: "The Ministry of the Attorney General advised my office and me personally that it would be inappropriate, given the criminal investigation that is under way at the moment, that if we released the reports, that we may indeed jeopardize those investigations."

Yesterday, we learned that the superintendent of the Elgin-Middlesex institution released the report to the managers accused of those beatings. The child advocate has stated that she only released this report to the two ministries. The question is, Minister, how did the superintendent get that report, who gave it to him, and doesn't this release, like you have previously stated, jeopardize the police investigation?

Hon Mr Runciman: I've indicated on a number of occasions that the responses of management with respect to the receipt of the report from the child advocate are a subject of the internal investigation. When those issues were raised related to the response of managers, I indicated that I was broadening the investigation and bringing in a senior counsel from the Ministry of the Attorney General to ensure that all of those very real concerns are addressed by the internal investigation. That's part of the process.

Mr Ramsay: But Minister, this incident happened after you were informed of all of this and said you were taking charge of this, that you were not satisfied with how your officials were carrying out this and that you were taking charge. Minister, you've been grossly negligent on this and continue to be so. Day after day it's getting worse.

Minister, back to the Piper case: You wrote to the Speaker of the day of your concern about the lack of security of the records that the police wanted to investigate. I'll quote from your letter: "Surely it is reasonable and fair to expect that once it is decided and announced that the police will investigate a former employee's conduct on the job, his office would be sealed immediately to protect, to secure all possible evidence for said investigation." Those are your words, Minister.

We know on June 10 that the superintendent, George Simpson, objected to the police having access to his records. How is it that not only did you leave the institution's records unprotected, but also you did not instruct your staff to fully cooperate with the police investigation?

Hon Mr Runciman: As I've indicated in the House, I haven't changed my opinion with respect to the Piper situation or with respect to the concerns expressed related to this matter. That's why I have broadened the investigation to ensure that those kinds of allegations are looked at and thoroughly investigated. If indeed inappropriate actions were undertaken by managers, they will be appropriately addressed in due course.

Mr Ramsay: Minister, this situation is out of control. Your handling of this scandal is getting worse, not better. Your action, or lack of action, has potentially contributed to an obstruction of justice. You obviously no longer have control of what goes on in your ministry. While there is a police investigation as to the alleged beatings at the Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre, there needs to be an inquiry as to how your ministry has handled this situation. Ultimately, the government is accountable to the people through this Legislature. Minister, I ask you today to refer this matter to a legislative committee for a complete legislative review.

Hon Mr Runciman: Again, I'll raise the issue that it's interesting that this particular member, whom I have some respect for, is raising this issue, given his own history in this ministry, the corrections side of this ministry. I quoted in the past about allegations that were raised that he was unaware of.

"I was not pleased with the history," said Ramsay. This is 1988. He immediately referred this to the Human Resources Secretariat for formal investigation. "Ramsay said he plans to issue another directive stipulating his office should be notified in writing whenever such allegations are received through the deputy minister's office."

In another column by Lorrie Goldstein: "Ramsay said he was depressed and horrified when he first learned of the allegations. `Before this,' he said, `I didn't understand how serious this is and what it can do to people.'"

The Speaker: New question, third party.

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): My question too is to the Solicitor General. Minister, yesterday I raised here in the House the very serious issue of managers at Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre who may be the subject of ongoing investigations having read the child advocate's report, a report which you have refused to release to the public because, as you have said a number of times, it may jeopardize the ongoing police investigation if details are known to potential witnesses and those under investigation.

When questioned yesterday, you refused to comment about this disturbing series of events, and today you seem to be suggesting that these are just allegations. But you, Minister, have received a letter from the lawyer who has been retained for the managers at EMDC in which he agrees and admits that those managers indeed did have access to that report and did read it. I assume you've had an opportunity to read that letter and also to read the letter signed by Mr Simpson, which clearly was sent to all the supervisory staff at Elgin-Middlesex, giving them access to the report and calling them to a meeting, presumably to discuss the ongoing crisis at EMDC.

Let's be really clear: I'm not asking you to comment on the ongoing investigation; that would not be appropriate. But surely you can tell us who authorized the release of this report to the very managers who are alleged to be the centre of this police investigation when it couldn't be released to anyone else. Did you know about that action? Did you authorize it?

Hon Mr Runciman: As I indicated in an earlier question from the official opposition, the responses of the management staff to the receipt of the child advocate's report are part of the internal investigation. We will act according to the reports that we receive related to that internal investigation. I'm not happy. I've indicated from the outset that I wasn't happy with the response of managerial staff. This is a problem that in my view has been systemic within the ministry of corrections for some period of time. We're going to address it, and we're going to address it quickly.

Mrs Boyd: Minister, that's just not good enough, and no one is going to consider it good enough. The real issue here is that by your inaction, you're essentially condoning the actions of managers in reading what they knew to be a confidential report. It is yet another example of the fact that you're not aware of what's going on in your own ministry.

You are also the Solicitor General and part of your task is to protect the integrity of police investigations. How can you possibly suggest you are behaving in a competent way, as a minister who is the Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services, when you allow this kind of thing to go on in the middle of a very serious investigation?

Hon Mr Runciman: I think the government has acted in a most responsible way with respect to all the concerns brought forward by the child advocate and the concerns raised in other forums with respect to the actions of managers in response to the receipt of the child advocate's report.

Mrs Boyd: Minister, I can assure you that had anyone else, any other minister in any other government or anyone else anywhere down the line in a ministry taken the kinds of inaction you've done over this, you'd be screaming obstruction of justice, quite frankly. You would. And you did many times in your role as critic.

How many times do we have to raise the inappropriate actions of your ministry officials, and by you as the minister, before you finally admit you're just not in control of what's going on. The people of Ontario and the staff in your ministry don't have any confidence in you and you know that because we get copies of the letters they're sending you every day.

Yesterday, when questioned by the media, you said: "I think it was on the 30th. I think the Elgin-Middlesex folks received a copy of the report. I think it was delivered directly by the child advocate, but you can confirm that." In fact I did just that and I too, as my colleague from Timiskaming, have the assurance of the child advocate that only the deputy ministers in the two ministries involved received a copy of that report.

Those managers at EMDC now have had access to a confidential document and have had an opportunity to read the evidence against them before they are investigated by the police. They could establish alibis and prepare a defence as a result, and that is an obstruction of justice. These investigators cannot reach conclusions that anybody's going to have any faith in when the evidence may have been tampered with and may have been tainted prior to the investigation.

Again, how did this report make its way to the very managers who may be the subject of an ongoing investigation?

Hon Mr Runciman: I've already answered that question in response to some of the other rhetoric. I think it's quite clear that the people of this province have a great deal more confidence in the way this government is going to respond to justice issues than they had in the predecessor government.

The Speaker: New question.

Mrs Boyd: This is a new question to the same minister. Let's go back to another issue that is very similar and has very much to do with the same issue of obstruction of justice.

It's our understanding that managers at Elgin-Middlesex were directed -- were directed -- to gather ministry documents on the weekend of June 8 to prepare a report for you. It's been alleged that documents were shredded during that weekend while those managers were in the institution, and they point out quite clearly that those are allegations that haven't been proven.

By the way, it's also reported that these managers are begging to be released from that institution, to be reassigned elsewhere, and I have on numerous occasions raised with you concerns about the managers remaining at Elgin-Middlesex and have asked you to reassign them outside of the institution, not only for the good of the young people in that institution, not only for the public good in terms of an assurance that there is no further interference with the investigations, but also for their own good.

You must have known that your officials were gathering information on the allegations that young people had been beaten at Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre because the information was for a report to be written for you, and in fact you told us on Monday, June 10, that you assumed that was what was going on and that you assumed those gathering that information had the authority from the ministry to do so.

We've asked you over and over again and you've refused to answer, so finally again, Minister, were you aware that managers who might be under investigation participated in this information-gathering session and did you approve it?

Hon Mr Runciman: No and no.

Mrs Boyd: It's getting worse, because you sounded quite calm and assured on June 10 that this was what they were doing. You told us, "Well, it's part of the investigation," and of course they were doing that. It's very interesting that you say you didn't know that.

I understand that there are many different investigations going on into the allegations of ministry staff abusing people in the care of your ministry, but it is really a simple and direct question that we're asking you to answer: Is it your understanding, as it is ours, as it is alleged by those managers, that they were directed by the ministry to go into the institution and gather this information, and is it true that those managers objected to that exercise because they believed very strongly that it might be seen as an effort to interfere with the investigations?

Hon Mr Runciman: When the member for London Centre raised this issue some days ago, I shared her concerns with respect to the allegations. I indicated to her, and I've reaffirmed on subsequent occasions, that this is going to be very much a part of the investigation with respect to how managerial staff responded to the receipt of the child advocate's report. I take those allegations very seriously. Indeed, I'm not going to speculate on who directed whom in respect to these kinds of situations and what happened. This is part of an internal investigation, and I'm sure a former Attorney General will respect that investigation.

Mrs Boyd: As a former Attorney General and a minister in other ministries, I know very clearly how important it is to secure the evidence when there are serious allegations. I can give you example after example where that was the first concern and ought to be the first concern of a minister when informed of a critical incident.

You were informed on June 5, according to your information -- which frankly becomes increasingly more difficult to believe -- of all this sort of thing, and on June 8 and into June 9 those managers were there. They agree they were there. They say they were there at the direction of the ministry and they say they objected to being there because they felt it was inappropriate for them to be there, and they were still ordered to do it.

You cannot escape some responsibility for this. While you claim the cloak of ignorance, perhaps we can believe you didn't know, but you knew and you admitted you knew by June 5. Why on earth, as Solicitor General if not as Minister of Correctional Services, didn't you insist that steps be taken to protect and secure the evidence, or the possible evidence, and certainly the records in a very serious incident? It's beyond my belief that you did not know that those people were being directed to collect that information, but if you say you didn't know that, surely you admit you should have known that.

You should have been on top of this, you should have been securing those records and you should have been ensuring that there was no possibility that people would suspect an obstruction of justice. You are responsible, and you can't keep trying to avoid that. Will you do the honourable thing and resign?

Hon Mr Runciman: No.

VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION

Mr Joseph Cordiano (Lawrence): I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services. It concerns a constituent of mine, Mr Jim Wade, a civil servant who was just terminated by the Ministry of Housing. Mr Wade has cerebral palsy. He had worked for the people of this province for the past 22 years. He had been supporting his wife and a granddaughter.

Twenty-two years ago, an enlightened minister of the then Progressive Conservative government of Bill Davis, the Minister of Social and Family Services, Mr Tom Wells, had the common sense to sponsor a vocational rehabilitation program that gave Mr Wade the opportunity to live and work in this great province. Why have you and your government terminated Mr Jim Wade and robbed him and his family of their future?

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Minister of Community and Social Services): I believe I'm correct in hearing -- it was hard to hear; my apologies, I just couldn't hear, but I think you said that this particular gentleman was working for the Ministry of Health, did you not?

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Are you answering the question or referring the question?

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: No, no. I didn't hear, Mr Speaker. If I could have the member repeat the question, because I really did not hear that part.

Mr Cordiano: I can't believe this. Do you want me to repeat the question, Mr Speaker? Okay.

I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services. If you would listen, it concerns a constituent of mine, Mr Jim Wade, a civil servant who has been terminated by the Ministry of Housing. Mr Wade has cerebral palsy. He had been working for the people of this province for the past 22 years. He has been supporting his wife and a granddaughter.

As I pointed out, 22 years ago an enlightened minister of the then Progressive Conservative government of Bill Davis, the Minister of Social and Family Services, Mr Tom Wells, had the common sense at that time to support a vocational rehabilitation program that gave Mr Wade the opportunity to live and work in this great province. I asked the minister why he and his government have terminated Mr Wade and robbed him and his family of their future. It's a simple question.

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: I suppose the part of that question that applies is the vocational rehabilitation program, because that gave this gentleman his start. We have not made any adjustments to that particular program. We are working right now with the disabled community to give them more opportunities to assist them to get to work.

Mr Cordiano: It is clear that the true and ugly face of the revolution has now been revealed, a revolution which has become a war against the underprivileged and the vulnerable of this province. Mr Wade and thousands of other disabled people across this province have become the victims of your war. What the former Premier Bill Davis gave Mr Wade -- the opportunity to work and the dignity that goes with a job -- Mike Harris is now stripping away.

Mr Wade is desperate to work, but you and your government have refused to hear his plea, and now Mr Wade and his family are being forced on to welfare. Where's the common sense in this? Clearly this government is engaged in what can only be described as an effort at downsizing.

When are you going to show the people and your colleagues that you're not some sort of incompetent pushover of a minister, that you will stand up and clearly --

The Speaker: The question has been asked.

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will consider the source.

We have a number of programs right now to assist disabled people to get back to work.

Interjection: Workfare.

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: It has nothing to do with workfare, because workfare does not require people with disabilities to participate in the program.

Once again, we are working with the disabled community to provide them with a better range of employment programs to assist them back to employment. That's what I suggest, that we not only have the same programs, that we're looking at how to improve them and provide better programs for the disabled because they're demanding them right now.

YOUNG OFFENDERS

Mrs Marion Boyd (London Centre): My question is for the Solicitor General and the Minister of Correctional Services. We understand that the superintendent of Elgin-Middlesex Detention Centre, George Simpson, was reassigned on June 13 by letter by the deputy minister of your ministry. Can you tell us whether reasons were given to Mr Simpson for this reassignment and what they were?

Hon Bob Runciman (Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services): I indicated yesterday that this is a delicate situation and I am not at liberty to discuss the details surrounding the reassignment of Mr Simpson.

Mrs Boyd: There are a number of suggestions as to why that might have happened. We're led to believe that Mr Simpson was reassigned because of comments he made regarding the alleged shredding of documents at the Elgin-Middlesex centre. On the other hand, we also understand that Mr Simpson objected to the procedures that were going on in your ministry around this investigation on the grounds that those procedures were damaging to the whole process and were in fact possibly damaging to the integrity of those investigations.

So it's rather important to know exactly why someone who was objecting to the very processes that frankly all of us are objecting to might have been reassigned, and whether there was another reason why he was reassigned or whether he was simply reassigned because he was objecting to the processes that appeared to be obstructing justice in your ministry.

Hon Mr Runciman: I can indicate clearly to the member that the reassignment had nothing to do with any objections Mr Simpson may or may not have had with respect to the other processes.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): The Minister of Housing has an answer to a previously asked question.

HOUSING CONSULTANTS

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I rise in the House today to respond to a question put to me on June 11 by the member for Cochrane South. I told the member I would look into the details of a situation whereby a manager in the housing ministry recommended that non-profit housing groups use the services of a particular private sector firm.

I'd like to advise the member that this issue has been investigated and appropriate action has been taken and we agree that it is totally inappropriate for ministry staff to recommend suppliers of goods or services to any non-profit housing group.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Supplementary, the member for Cochrane South.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): No supplementary, Speaker.

AGRICULTURE INSPECTION

Mr Pat Hoy (Essex-Kent): My question is to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Minister, in Bill 46 you've gutted the Farm Products Grades and Sales Act, you've cut produce inspectors by 80%. In the agricultural magazine the Grower you say that these changes were the result of your table talks and you go on to say that the bill reflects the input of the agrifood industry.

Later in the same article, the executive secretary of the Ontario Fruit and Vegetable Growers' Association says that they are concerned "that the government didn't listen to the horticultural sector, which identified integrated pest management, advisory services and inspection as core business activities for OMAFRA." He goes on to say that the association told your ministry in February "that inspection services preserve orderly marketing, instil consumer confidence, prevent mislabelling of product and protect buyers and sellers from fraudulent activity."

Mr Minister, if the association representing the fruit and vegetable growers, who are most directly affected by this legislation, do not agree with it, tell me, whose input does this bill really reflect?

Hon Noble Villeneuve (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, minister responsible for francophone affairs): I want to thank the honourable member for allowing me the opportunity to set the record straight and indeed that food and safety in this province is not being compromised. Let me be perfectly clear: The government in no way has reduced its commitment to food safety. The role these inspectors have played was never one that was dealing with health and safety. The provincial Ministry of Health and the federal Department of Health have inspectors out there.

What these inspectors were doing was taking random samples to establish any pesticide residues in order to advise farmers as to what pesticides they should be using and indeed what amount of pesticide they should be using. It may have had some influence, but it was primarily the reason to advise farmers as to what materials they should be using when spraying.

Mr Hoy: Back home we don't turn on the manure spreader until we leave the building.

I'd like to point out that produce inspection not only protects the public from possible harm, but it protects the producers from fraud and hysteria. These inspections give the consumer the confidence that the produce they are purchasing is safe. When these safeguards are not there, the people who are hurt are the farmers themselves.

Mr Minister, how can you tell the consumers and the producers of this province that the government is no longer interested in ensuring consumer confidence in an industry for which this is so crucial a component?

Hon Mr Villeneuve: I will reiterate that indeed the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs was taking random samples to establish the grading and the quality of the products used. When the member mentions about a manure spreader, the verbal effluent coming from over there would fill those manure spreaders.

WORKFARE

Mr David S. Cooke (Windsor-Riverside): I have a question to the Minister of Community and Social Services. We already know from your ministry's 1995 study that 95% of all employable social assistance recipients were involved in either working full- or part-time, going to school, taking job training, doing volunteer work or searching for work. Even 41% of single parents were searching for jobs while 15% report they were also doing voluntary work.

Last month in Ontario there were more than half a million unemployed people actively looking for work. Right now, the Ministry of Education and Training is out briefing school boards about new requirements that grade 11 and 12 students will spend 20% to 40% of their time with work experience. We won't even mention community service work being done for inmates of correctional services.

I'd like to ask the minister a very simple question. Of the 54,000 social assistance recipients who are participating in the 20 workfare pilots, how many of these people will be placed by the end of this year and how much money are you going to save in welfare?

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Minister of Community and Social Services): There are a number of people who were actually participating in a number of activities prior to this year, and of course the member knows that job search is mandatory under his government's policies as well. So I would assume that because it was mandatory to job-search, that they were job-searching and I hope it was a higher percentage than that.

But certainly we hope to have as many people from the 54,000 cases to work as possible, but it also depends a lot on the business plans. We're working with the various communities right now. That's part of what they're coming forward with, to indicate what the particular community placement programs are going to be and what the employment and training programs are going to be as well. That's part of the business plans. That's because we're working with the communities. We're looking for community solutions and that's what's quite different about this program.

Mr Cooke: We know that when the minister goes to treasury board, he has to come up with numbers that say how much he is going to be paying for programs, how many people are going to be on social assistance, what he has budgeted for. So all of this garbage today that he doesn't know anything, he's been studying this for a year, he can't tell us how many of the 54,000 people are going to be placed, how much money's going to be spent on training and how much money's going to be saved is nonsense. What have you budgeted for? How many dollars are going to be saved and how many people are going to be placed?

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: I think we'd be willing to match track records of this government to yours any time in terms of welfare reforms.

We've indicated clearly that we're looking at a program that's going to cost about $450 million over the three-year period, and this money is money we're getting from savings that we've gotten already from social assistance and redirection of the training dollars.

Clearly we have a mandated program here, and the program we're talking about today with the training programs are accountable programs that really are tied to success that in the event that people are successful in placing people back to work, they will get paid. In the event they're unsuccessful, they don't get paid. That's the big difference.

Clearly we've set out what the costs are. We are doing community planning, and the bulk of this does depend on the programs and resources and what the community demands.

WINE INDUSTRY STANDARDS

Mr Tom Froese (St Catharines-Brock): My question is to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. There was a report last night on the TV news that indicated that Health Canada, the federal ministry that regulates food and drugs, is proposing to change the Food and Drugs Act regulations to raise the acceptable levels of pesticides allowed in wines. Minister, could you please inform the House of your ministry's position on these proposed changes as they affect wine consumers in Ontario?

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations): I know the member for St Catharines-Brock, representing a good part of the wine country of Ontario, is extremely concerned about these kinds of issues. I'm pleased to inform the House that we've been following closely the developments in this area and the LCBO currently conducts tests on all products sold through the LCBO stores.

We are quite concerned about the proposed changes in the federal regulations as to new levels, whether or not they are appropriate. As a matter of fact, in one instance the proposed increase would allow 100 times more pesticides than are presently acceptable in wine products sold in Ontario. However, under our particular act the LCBO has the authority to maintain stricter standards than those required by the federal regulators. Consequently, the province can set and maintain its own standards regarding allowable levels of these substances, and we intend to continue to do so.

Mr Froese: Minister, I understand the motivation behind these federal changes to the Food and Drugs Act is related to trade issues relating to GATT and NAFTA agreements. Doesn't this mean that Ontario will in turn be pressured to raise acceptable levels of pesticide residues in wine sold in this province?

Hon Mr Sterling: The primary concern of my ministry and the LCBO is that we provide products to wine consumers in Ontario that are safe and do not pose any health risk to the people in the long term. We feel it is better to proceed cautiously in these kinds of matters rather than jump out and allow these excessive increases in pesticides which would be in the wines we are serving the people.

The LCBO has found, not surprisingly, that wine is consumed much more frequently and in greater quantities than grapes and therefore the LCBO feels that the residue levels should be much stricter in dealing with this product.

Finally, I'm pleased to inform many members of the public and the House that the LCBO has stricter standards than the federal Food and Drugs Act in many, many areas, and therefore we don't feel this is a departure from that policy.

VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS

Mr Gerard Kennedy (York South): I have a question for the same minister, the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. This is concerning the act entitled the Alcohol, Gaming and Charity Funding Public Interest Act, which, as in so many of the acts coming from this government, doesn't mean what it says. But I would like to give this minister an opportunity to tell us about the slot machine proliferation plan for this province.

The Minister of Finance, in this minister's absence, talked about the amount of revenue being incidental to the needs of the deficit, and Mr Eves also referred on May 15 to the introduction of slot machines as going in only controlled environments, into racetracks and into charity sites. Yet on June 13 he's talking about any room that is not accessible to minors, and it seems like an escalation only in that one month, perhaps after the minister has done his calculations on his budget requirements.

As the minister responsible, could you tell this House and the public the real scope of slot machine activity, what you call VLTs, that you're planning for this province? What number of machines, what kind of revenue and how much increased gambling activity have you planned for this province under this act?

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations): This legislation was introduced to meet an existing problem where we had some 15,000 to 25,000 illegal machines. We are trying to develop the introduction of these machines to fight those illegal machines in a most measured and controlled manner, and I think we've outlined that in our policy by introducing them into very controlled atmospheres first. We will learn from that and then proceed on to the next step if those first experiments prove successful.

Mr Kennedy: It's very evident that the minister is planning to fight this problem in every neighbourhood in the province, because that's what it's going to take, to have bars in every neighbourhood in this province, with slot machines, to meet some of the revenue projections this government is making: your statement to the Toronto Sun that there would be 20,000 machines in this province, and an average yield, based on the machines in Manitoba, suggests over $400 million; the other statements of your ministry that all we're assured of is that the lowest per capita incidence of machines means we could have 40,000 machines in this province.

I refer you also to the budget document of the Minister of Finance that $180 million will be going to charities in their 10% share. That suggests $1.8 billion.

When we're talking about neighbourhood bars, the prospect of combining, for the first time in this province, alcohol and gaming side by each, this is already in your bill. People in the province need to know this, that this discussion of controlled environments means people who are drinking using these machines and spending the family groceries. Again I ask you to come clean and tell us exactly how many machines you have planned, at what rate, and what will happen in this province in terms of bringing gambling to every neighbourhood bar?

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): Do you know the answer, Norm?

Hon Mr Sterling: In fact, I don't know the answer to that question because the approach this government is taking is that we will only introduce these machines in a controlled atmosphere where they can be controlled, where we can ensure they are not being introduced and being played by minors. The fact of the matter is that's the approach we should take. We will say this: We will have fewer of these machines than the eight other provinces in Canada which legally have them, per capita, and therefore we will have fewer machines in our province than eight of the 10 provinces of Canada.

AGRICULTURE INSPECTION

Mr Howard Hampton (Rainy River): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs to follow up on the question that was asked earlier. The Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs has laid off 80% of the province's agricultural inspectors who used to check for pesticide residue on our fruits and vegetables.

At a time when people are worried about health and food quality because of recent problems with American strawberries, at a time when Europe is confronting huge problems with respect to food quality because of issues like mad cow disease, as the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, how do you justify, first of all, putting the markets of fruit and vegetable growers at risk, and secondly, putting a lot of doubt in the public's mind about the quality of food that's being produced?

Hon Noble Villeneuve (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, minister responsible for francophone affairs): I want to reiterate to the honourable member, and indeed to all members of this Legislature, that what the inspectors did was simply verify that the grades and standards of the produce were indeed what they were advertised as. They did some random sampling, and between 96% and 98% of the samples had well within the tolerable residues of pesticides and herbicides. The role of these inspectors was never one of dealing with consumer health and safety. The Ministry of Health and Health Canada are involved in those.

I want to make it perfectly clear that the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs was doing some random sampling, and it will continue to do that, with fewer people but they will continue to do that, to advise farmers as to the use of pesticides and the volumes. That was their responsibility.

Mr Hampton: I believe what we got from the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs is that since they've laid off 80% of the fruit and vegetable inspectors, the province is less concerned about food quality and the province is less concerned about pesticide residue. That's what we just got from the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs.

The minister told the press, "Any individuals who feel that there may be a problem are welcome to send their samples in for testing." Is this the new regime in Ontario? Is this the new regime, that people who get food they don't think is up to quality, who get food they feel may have higher pesticide residues than is appropriate, that it's now their responsibility to send it in? Is the minister saying his ministry no longer has any responsibility for food quality or for ensuring that pesticide residues are kept within the limits? Is that what you're saying?

Hon Mr Villeneuve: The honourable member does have some difficulty. When he uses California strawberries and mad cow disease, he is fearmongering. He is fanning the flames of mistrust. He is telling the consumers of Ontario, "Don't trust our food producers." We still have inspectors. They will still be monitoring and they will still be looking at the residues. The fanning of the flames of fearmongering, coming from these people, is simply saying that they do not trust the food producers of Ontario. The food producers of Ontario have a record I am proud to support.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): New question.

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean): My question is to the same minister, the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Like my colleagues opposite, I think there's a concern across the province, particularly over the weekend when it was reported in the Globe and Mail with respect to the quality of pesticides used in California produce. This points to the need for some national leadership in this area. I wonder if the minister could tell the House the status of the 1995 federal budget. The federal Liberal government in Ottawa promised to move forward with a national food inspection agency to deal with all those involved in the production of food and the import and export of food.

Hon Mr Villeneuve: The strawberry problem is very much that of American strawberries coming into Ontario. Ontario strawberries are not on the market yet or are just now starting to come on the market. I can assure my colleagues that Ontario berries are very safe to eat, and yes, I will be going next week --

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I want to hear this out of the other side of the mouth.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Villeneuve: I'm simply trying to reassure the consuming public in Ontario that Ontario strawberries are very safe.

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): You fired all the inspectors. How do you know?

Ms Marilyn Churley (Riverdale): How do you know?

Hon Mr Villeneuve: How do I know? Quite obviously the doubting Thomases over there want to fearmonger. How do I know? Simply, the American berries are inspected federally. Yes, they did come in with a problem, and that has been made public. If you're going to consume American berries, make sure they're very well washed. There is no problem with Ontario strawberries.

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

Mr Mario Sergio (Yorkview): My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. The minister has publicly stated that this ministry intends to sell off more than 64,000 public housing units. Very simply, I was wondering if the minister would update us on the progress of the sale and if the minister has encountered any problems in his dealings.

Hon Al Leach (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Actually it's 84,000 homes, not 64,000. Obviously, as the members can realize, it's an extremely complex situation. The federal government has advised us that it wants to get out of its housing program and it wants the province to take responsibility for the federal program. We want to take a look and see what effect that has on our plans. The staff are working on it now. There are certain units that would be easier to put on the market and give the current tenants the opportunity to buy. We're looking at that. We'll be bringing a more in-depth program forward in the fall.

Mr Sergio: I appreciate the answer by the minister. However, I have to say that it's quite typical of a Conservative answer -- without any factual data. I would like the minister to give some specific information, if it's possible. Is it not true that most of the units are built on municipally owned lands which are leased to the province at very low rates? Secondly, is it not true that many of the buildings were jointly funded by the federal government, which makes it an equal owner of the property?

It appears that the minister wasn't made aware of the situation until only recently. We on this side of the House would like to know when you were made aware of this. Secondly, I wonder if you would provide me with the details of the number of units involved, specifically the number of provincial units on municipally owned lands and the number of joint ventures between the federal and provincial governments. I would appreciate that information.

Hon Mr Leach: That's very public information. I'd be glad to provide the member with that information. There are three or four categories. There is some public housing that is owned and operated jointly by the municipalities, the federal government and the provincial government. There are other projects that are operated just by the federal government and the provincial government, and others that are operated just by the provincial government and the municipal governments. There are also some that are operated solely by the provincial government.

The ones that we have control over we'll be dealing with in a certain way. On others we obviously have to negotiate with our partners in the project. We're doing that. We have ongoing negotiations with them. The numbers of the various categories are public, and I'm surprised that the member would have to ask for them. They've been public for years.

MALPRACTICE INSURANCE

Mr Floyd Laughren (Nickel Belt): I have a brief question to the Minister of Health. It was with some amazement that I read his press release today announcing that he's going to pay the malpractice insurance for not just the obstetricians of the province but all doctors in the province. What astounded me was the opening paragraph in his press release, where he said, "Having succeeded in forcing a full review of the Canadian Medical Protective Association, Health Minister Jim Wilson today restored the government malpractice insurance...."

I would remind the minister that this review was announced on May 2, so I'm not sure what he's saying he forced anybody to do. It takes me back to the days of Larry Grossman when he had a deal with the doctors. He was accused of wrestling the doctors to the ceiling. This minister has set a new standard: He's wrestled them through the ceiling, into the attic and up on the roof, because not only has he given them a raise -- I'm now speaking of the obstetricians -- he's now picking up the malpractice insurance as well.

When is the minister going to learn from his mistakes of not consulting with anybody before he makes a decision, whether it's the doctors, the district health councils or the public labs in this province? He thinks that because of Bill 26 he can just go ahead and do everything he wants arbitrarily because he now has the powers. When is he going to stop creating these crises because he doesn't consult before he makes these important decisions?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Health): The honourable member knows full well that I spend all of my time -- I don't have a family; I don't have time to see anyone else -- talking to doctors and health care providers, literally, although I'm happy to announce that I'm working on the family thing as we speak.

The fact of the matter is that there are few facts here that we have to put on the record, and that is that I spent five months consulting with physicians when I first became minister. In this House we said many times, and I wrote a letter to all the doctors in the province saying: "Look, there's a $1-billion reserve there. It would be irresponsible for this government to pay a 20% increase, $48 million into a fund that has no accountability mechanisms whatsoever." We asked for those accountability mechanisms.

Dr Stuart Lee, the secretary-treasurer of the CMPA, would not return our calls for five months. A funny thing happens, though, when you pull the money. All of a sudden everybody gets worried about the same things the government is worried about on behalf of the taxpayers of the province. So we went through that, and now the CMPA has agreed that Justice Dubin will do a full arm's-length investigation of the whole malpractice fund.

Secondly, the honourable member forgets to read the last paragraph -- very, very important: finally, an indication from the government and the OMA that after having gone through this over the past few weeks and months, we are going to work together in a new era of cooperation. The OMA walked out on you in February 1995. We have them back at the table and we're working together to improve the health care system in this province.

Mr Laughren: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. It perhaps could be construed by some as an apology to the Minister of Health, because I think perhaps over the last month or so I have not really understood why it was he created the crisis with the obstetricians. Now I understand.

Mr Pat Hoy (Essex-Kent): On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: Yesterday in the House the Premier of Ontario, Mike Harris, said in response to a question, "What I saw while I was at home not very well, perhaps having eaten strawberries at the wrong time...." Mr Speaker, he did not say US strawberries. There is no problem with strawberries in Canada, and if anybody's fearmongering, it's the Premier of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Order. Oral question period has expired. Motions. The member for Oriole.

Mrs Elinor Caplan (Oriole): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I'd like some clarification from the Minister of Health, who I believe made a ministerial statement instead of answering the question, that he has now recognized --

The Speaker: Order. The member take her seat. You can ask that question tomorrow. You'll get a clarification, I'm sure.

PETITIONS

FAMILY SUPPORT OFFICES

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the centralization of the family support plan in Toronto will result in the closure of the Sudbury family support plan offices and a loss of 40 jobs to the regional municipality of Sudbury's economy; and

"Whereas access to the service of the family support plan will be more restricted for many social assistance clients with the introduction of a 1-900 telephone line; and

"Whereas the offices in Ottawa, Windsor, London, Whitby, Thunder Bay and Hamilton will be closed, resulting in a transfer in excess of 100 jobs and the permanent elimination of 78 employees; and

"Whereas the family support plan collected $416 million in support payments in 1995, of which $50 million was returned to the Treasurer of Ontario, and the annual operating costs of the family support plan are approximately $23 million; and

"Whereas legislation and regulation can be introduced to make the program more cost-effective, such as the proposals included in the Sudbury support plan document;

"Therefore

be it resolved that the Attorney General of Ontario be requested to review the business plan to centralize the family support plan in Toronto; and further, that we petition the Legislature of Ontario to cancel the centralization plan."

I affix my name as I agree with this petition.

MINIMUM WAGE

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I rise today to present a petition that was collected primarily by my constituent Genesio Paccioco in Sault Ste Marie, and it says this:

"Whereas the Progressive Conservatives are attacking the working poor by freezing the minimum wage; and

"Whereas this will bring hardship to the working poor and their families; and

"Whereas the Progressive Conservatives make no mention in their Common Sense Revolution about this; thus this government has no mandate to freeze the minimum wage,

"Therefore we, the undersigned, request that the Premier and the Minister of Labour repeal the freeze and increase the minimum wage to $7.50 an hour. If this is not acted upon in a reasonable time, the Premier and the Minister of Labour should resign from their positions and call an election."

This is signed by a number of people from the Sault, not least among them Tony Zimbarro, who also helped in collecting it from 43 Henrietta Street. Also, if anybody wanted to speak to Genesio about this, he's in the visitors' gallery today and will be in my office, 325-4014, afterwards. I present this to you and sign my own name to it.

JUSTICE SYSTEM

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Simcoe Centre): I'm presenting this petition on behalf of the member for Simcoe West. It is addressed to the assembly of Ontario and reads:

"The undersigned wish to see a revision of the judicial system, which we do not think reflects the rights of the victim in dispensing justice.

"

(1) We request that the criminal receive sentencing which adequately reflects the nature of the crime in cases of sexual assault. We have enclosed examples of sentencing which insult the intelligence and integrity of the victim and further violate the victim who has had the courage to go to court.

"

(2) We request that reliable statistics in comparable sentencing be made part of the judicial process across Canada. In other words, sentencing of criminals is not made at the discretion or on an ad hoc basis by the presiding judge.

"

(3) We request that the judicial process be made as simple and as straightforward as possible, without delays and, especially where children will be required to testify, that they have adequate support and that the use of videotape testimony be allowed as evidence. Crime victims are not on trial and are victimized until proven otherwise.

"

(4) We request that the media be allowed to publish the names of known sexual offenders as long as the victims sign an informed consent release which would not allow them to sue the media for damages.

"

(5) We request that the victims of sexual assault receive automatic compensation from the criminal or, failing that, the victim compensation fund, so that the victim is spared the indignity of having to file a civil lawsuit for compensation for pain and suffering.

"

(6) We request that the victim be present during any appeal process when the victim feels that the offender's sentence was unjust or inadequate."

There are more than 100 signatures attached hereto, and I put my signature to it.

LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD OF ONTARIO

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): The petition reads as follows:

"To the government of Ontario:

"Whereas the government of Ontario appears to be moving towards the privatization of retail liquor and spirits sales in the province; and

"Whereas the LCBO provides a safe, secure and controlled way of retailing alcoholic beverages; and

"Whereas the LCBO provides the best method of restricting the sale of liquor to minors in Ontario; and

"Whereas the LCBO has an excellent program of quality control of the products sold in its stores; and

"Whereas the LCBO provides a wide selection of product to its customers in modern, convenient stores; and

"Whereas the LCBO has moved forward with the times, sensitive to the needs of its customers and its clients; and

"Whereas the LCBO is an important instrument for the promotion and sale of Ontario wine and thereby contributes immensely to the grape-growing and wine-producing industry;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that the government of Ontario abandon its plan to turn over the sale of liquor and spirits over to private liquor stores and retain the LCBO for this purpose."

I present this petition from Ashley Snell of St Catharines who attends Dalewood public school in the north end of St Catharines.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre): I have further petitions to add to the thousands I've already presented from workers concerned about this government's attack on workplace health and safety. This is from the United Steelworkers of America, Local 7135, in my home town of Hamilton.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas it is vital that occupational health and safety services provided to workers be conducted by organizations in which workers have faith; and

"Whereas the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers have provided such services on behalf of workers for many years; and

"Whereas the centre and clinics have made a significant contribution to improvements in workplace health and safety and the reduction of injuries, illnesses and death caused by work;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to oppose any attempt to erode the structure, services or funding of the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers.

"Further we, the undersigned, demand that education and training of Ontario workers continue in its present form through the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and that professional and technical expertise and advice continue to be provided through the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers."

I affix my signature in support.

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

Mr Ed Doyle (Wentworth East): This petition reads:

"We, the undersigned tenants of Stoney Creek Non-Profit Housing Corp, a community of seniors, families and single persons, including those with special needs, are concerned that:

"

(1) Our homes will be lost because of the government's cuts to non-profit housing projects which will undermine their financial viability; and

"

(2) Low-income families and the most vulnerable in our communities will suffer devastating hardship because of cuts to the number of needy people receiving rent-geared-to-income assistance, and the increased rents for those currently receiving such assistance.

"We call upon you to stop these government actions that seriously jeopardize our futures and the ongoing viability of our non-profit housing communities."

INJURED WORKERS

Mr John C. Cleary (Cornwall): I have a petition to the Legislature of Ontario.

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to reject the Harris government's proposals to attack injured workers of Ontario.

"We, the people of Ontario, did not intend to vote against our neighbours. We want to build a better community. Injured workers are a part of the community.

"We say no to the Harris plans to cut injured workers' benefits; cut injured workers' pensions and future economic loss (FEL) payments; introduce a waiting period for benefits after injury; refuse compensation for disabilities like repetitive strains and occupational diseases; shift the responsibility from the WCB and employer to the taxpayer; and privatize the WCB at the expense of the injured worker and the public.

"We call on the Harris government to solve the WCB's problems without attacking injured workers.

"The government must put an emphasis on a safer workplace and stop rewarding employers who ignore work hazards; give injured workers the right to rehabilitate and return to meaningful work; give all workers the protection of workers' compensation, especially at the banks, which must finally start paying their fair share; and hold employers accountable for evading their WCB obligations.

"Give workers and injured workers at least an equal say in the system."

I've signed the petition.

SERVICES DE SANTÉ ET DE SÉCURITÉ AU TRAVAIL

M. Tony Silipo (Dovercourt) : J'ai une pétition qui s'adresse à l'Assemblée législative de l'Ontario.

"Attendu qu'il est crucial que les services de santé et de sécurité au travail à l'intention des travailleuses et des travailleurs soient fournis par des organismes auxquels les travailleuses et les travailleurs font confiance ;

"Attendu que les Centres de santé et de sécurité des travailleuses et des travailleurs, CSST, et les Centres de santé des travailleurs de l'Ontario, CSTO, assurent ces services de façon fort efficace depuis plusieurs années ;

"Attendu que le CSST et le CSTO ont fait une contribution importante aux améliorations en matière de santé et de sécurité au travail et à la réduction des blessures, des maladies et des décès liés au travail ;

"Nous, soussignés, soumettons la présente pétition à l'Assemblée législative de l'Ontario et l'engageons à rejeter toute initiative visant à affaiblir la structure, les services ou le financement des Centres de santé et de sécurité des travailleuses et des travailleurs ou des Centres de santé des travailleurs de l'Ontario ;

"En outre nous, soussignés, exigeons que des services d'éducation et de formation des travailleuses et des travailleurs de l'Ontario continuent à être offerts sous leur forme actuelle par les Centres de santé et de sécurité des travailleuses et des travailleurs et que des conseils professionnels et techniques continuent à être offerts par les Centres de santé des travailleurs de l'Ontario."

Cette pétition nous parvient de beaucoup de citoyens de Hearst, Mattice et Kapuskasing et je l'appuie. J'y ajoute ma signature.

DRINKING AND DRIVING

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean): I have yet another petition signed by residents from all over my constituency of Nepean, some 40 in this one.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas drinking and driving is the largest criminal cause of death and injury in Canada;

"Whereas every 45 minutes in Ontario a driver is involved in an alcohol-related crash;

"Whereas most alcohol-related accidents are caused by repeat offenders;

"Whereas lengthy licence suspensions for impaired driving have been shown to greatly reduce repeat offences;

"Whereas the victims of impaired drivers often pay with their lives while only 22% of convicted impaired drivers go to jail, and even then only for an average of 21 days;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"We urge the provincial government to pass legislation that will strengthen measures against impaired drivers in Ontario."

I have affixed my own signature thereto.

EDUCATION FINANCING

Mr Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre): I have a petition signed by hundreds of people to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, which reads:

"Whereas the government of Ontario has embarked on a program to reduce the expenditures for education in the province,

"We, the undersigned, wish to state:

That we are opposed to the reductions in funding for schools across the province;

"That we believe that these reductions will affect classrooms across the province;

"That educational spending is a most important investment in the future of all the citizens of the province and needs to be redressed."

I submit this petition, which would include my signature as well.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr Len Wood (Cochrane North): I have a petition here that's signed by hundreds of workers, submitted to me by OPEIU, Local 166, in Kapuskasing and also from the IWA, Local 1-2995, in Kapuskasing. It's addressed to the Legislative Assembly.

"Whereas it is vital that occupational health and safety services provided to workers be conducted by organizations in which workers have faith;

"Whereas the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers have provided such services on behalf of the workers for many years;

"Whereas the centre and clinics have made a significant contribution to improvements in workplace health and safety and the reduction of injuries, illnesses and deaths caused by work;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to oppose any attempt to erode the structure, services or funding of the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers.

"Further, we, the undersigned, demand that the education and training of Ontario workers continue in its present form through the Workers' Health and Safety Centre and that its professional and technical expertise and advice continue to be provided through the occupational health clinics for Ontario workers."

I affix my signature to the petition.

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION

Mr Bill Grimmett (Muskoka-Georgian Bay): I have a petition on behalf of the member for Simcoe East. In accordance with the standing orders, I'll summarize it. This petition relates to the interaction of the freedom of information and privacy act and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's signed by one constituent in the riding of Simcoe East.

BEAR HUNTING

Mr Frank Miclash (Kenora): I have a petition that reads:

"To the Parliament of Ontario:

"Whereas bears are hunted in the spring, after they have come out of hibernation; and

"Whereas about 30% of the bears killed in the spring are female, some with cubs; and

"Whereas 70% of the orphaned cubs do not survive the first year; and

"Whereas 95.3% of the bears killed by non-resident hunters and 54% killed by resident hunters are killed over bait; and

"Whereas Ontario still allows the limited use of dogs in bear hunting; and

"Whereas bears are the only large mammals hunted in the spring; and

"Whereas bears are the only mammals that are hunted over bait; and

"Whereas there are only six states in the United States which still allow a spring hunt,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario to amend the Game and Fish Act to prohibit the hunting of bears in the spring and to prohibit the use of baiting and dogs in all bear-hunting activities."

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

DELZAP CONSTRUCTION LIMITED ACT, 1996

Mr Murdoch, on behalf of Mr Stockwell, moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill Pr62,

An Act to revive Delzap Construction Ltd.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

BANK OF NOVA SCOTIA TRUST COMPANY ACT, 1996

Ms Bassett moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill Pr63,

An Act respecting the Bank of Nova Scotia Trust Company, Montreal Trust Company of Canada and Montreal Trust Company.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

We have two deferred votes. By unanimous consent, there will be a five-minute bell. Call in the members.

The division bells rang from 1525 to 1530.

SAFETY AND CONSUMER STATUTES ADMINISTRATION ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR L'APPLICATION DE CERTAINES LOIS TRAITANT DE SÉCURITÉ ET DE SERVICES AUX CONSOMMATEURS

Deferred vote on the motion for second reading of Bill 54,

An Act to provide for the delegation of the administration of certain designated statutes to designated administrative authorities and to provide for certain limitation periods in those statutes / Projet de loi 54, Loi prévoyant la délégation de l'application de certaines lois désignées à des organismes d'application désignés et prévoyant certains délais de prescription dans ces lois.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Will the members take their seats, please. We're dealing with second reading of Bill 54 standing in the name of Mr Sterling. All those in favour will please rise one at a time until their name is called.

Ayes

Arnott, Ted

Grimmett, Bill

Preston, Peter

Baird, John R.

Guzzo, Garry J.

Rollins, E.J. Douglas

Barrett, Toby

Hardeman, Ernie

Ross, Lillian

Bassett, Isabel

Hudak, Tim

Runciman, Bob

Beaubien, Marcel

Jackson, Cameron

Sampson, Rob

Boushy, Dave

Johns, Helen

Shea, Derwyn

Brown, Jim

Johnson, Bert

Sheehan, Frank

Carroll, Jack

Johnson, David

Skarica, Toni

Chudleigh, Ted

Johnson, Ron

Smith, Bruce

Clement, Tony

Jordan, Leo

Spina, Joseph

Cunningham, Dianne

Klees, Frank

Sterling, Norman W.

Danford, Harry

Leach, Al

Stewart, R. Gary

DeFaria, Carl

Leadston, Gary L.

Tascona, Joseph N.

Doyle, Ed

Martiniuk, Gerry

Tilson, David

Ecker, Janet

Murdoch, Bill

Tsubouchi, David H.

Fisher, Barbara

Mushinski, Marilyn

Turnbull, David

Flaherty, Jim

Newman, Dan

Villeneuve, Noble

Ford, Douglas B.

O'Toole, John

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Fox, Gary

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Wilson, Jim

Froese, Tom

Palladini, Al

Witmer, Elizabeth

Galt, Doug

Parker, John L.

Wood, Bob

Gilchrist, Steve

Pettit, Trevor

Young, Terence H.

The Speaker: All those opposed will please rise one at a time.

Nays

Agostino, Dominic

Cooke, David S.

McGuinty, Dalton

Bartolucci, Rick

Cordiano, Joseph

McLeod, Lyn

Bisson, Gilles

Crozier, Bruce

Miclash, Frank

Boyd, Marion

Curling, Alvin

Morin, Gilles E.

Bradley, James J.

Gravelle, Michael

Patten, Richard

Brown, Michael A.

Hoy, Pat

Phillips, Gerry

Caplan, Elinor

Kennedy, Gerard

Pouliot, Gilles

Chiarelli, Robert

Kormos, Peter

Pupatello, Sandra

Christopherson, David

Kwinter, Monte

Ramsay, David

Churley, Marilyn

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Sergio, Mario

Cleary, John C.

Laughren, Floyd

Silipo, Tony

Colle, Mike

Marchese, Rosario

Wildman, Bud

Conway, Sean G.

Martel, Shelley

Wood, Len

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 66, the nays are 39.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Shall the bill be ordered for third reading?

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations): The justice committee.

The Speaker: Is it agreed that Bill 54 goes to the justice committee? Agreed.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE RATE STABILITY ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 SUR LA STABILITÉ DES TAUX D'ASSURANCE-AUTOMOBILE

Deferred vote on the motion for second reading of Bill 59,

An Act to provide Ontario drivers with fair, balanced and stable automobile insurance and to make other amendments related to insurance matters / Projet de loi 59, Loi visant à offrir une assurance-automobile équitable, équilibrée et stable aux conducteurs ontariens et à apporter d'autres modifications portant sur des questions d'assurance.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Now we're dealing with Bill 59, second reading, standing in the name of Mr Eves.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry for second reading?

All those in favour, say "aye."

All opposed, say "nay."

The members are here. Do we have unanimous consent to proceed with the vote? Agreed. Would it be the same vote? Agreed.

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 66; the nays are 39.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Shall the bill be ordered for third reading? Agreed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1996 / LOI DE 1996 MODIFIANT DES LOIS EN CE QUI CONCERNE LE MINISTÈRE DE L'AGRICULTURE, DE L'ALIMENTATION ET DES AFFAIRES RURALES

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 46,

An Act to amend or revoke various statutes administered by or affecting the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs and to enact other statutes administered by the Ministry / Projet de loi 46, Loi modifiant ou abrogeant diverses lois appliquées par le ministère de l'Agriculture, de l'Alimentation et des Affaires rurales, ou qui touchent ce ministère, et visant à édicter d'autres lois appliquées par le ministère.

The Speaker (Hon Allan K. McLean): Mr Hampton had the floor last.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Cochrane South): Mr Speaker, I believe we have unanimous consent that I take the place of the member for Rainy River for the opening speech.

The Speaker: Is it agreed that the member for Cochrane South continue with the debate? Agreed.

Interjections.

Mr Bisson: I will allow the members of the chamber to organize themselves into a little bit of more quiet around here, I guess.

I'm glad today to be able to participate in the debate. It is with pleasure that I have the opportunity today to be able to speak on this bill, as it has a number of effects and consequences, I would say, to the agricultural industry of northern Ontario.

I think a lot of members of this assembly, and I would say probably generally a lot of people within the population of Ontario, sometimes take for granted that the farming industry is mostly located in southern Ontario and that the north may, in the minds of some, not play a very large role when it comes to the question of the agricultural business of this province.

I can say, Mr Speaker, as I'm sure you understand and other members of this assembly do, that the north has, through the communities of Earlton and Sudbury and Timmins and Rainy River and in around Thunder Bay and Sault Ste Marie and Manitoulin, various large and very prosperous farmers in those communities. In fact, a number of communities in northern Ontario are agriculture communities, as you would well know.

There has certainly been a lot of interest in regard to this, which I would consider another omnibus bill on the part of the government bringing forward a number of what the government would call housekeeping orders when it comes to how the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs deals with farmers and farm issues across the province of Ontario.

I just want to say at the outset of this debate that there are some farmers and there are a number of people within our party, and I'm sure the other opposition party -- that there are some things in this bill, quite frankly, that need to be done, and those we will support and we will work with the government on. But there are other directions that the government is taking in this bill in regard to a number of initiatives and repeals of certain acts that are going to have an effect on the farm community and will have an effect on farmers in this province, and I will say not a positive one. I will deal mostly with those. I think the positive ones speak for themselves.

I'm here to bring the concerns of the people of northern Ontario and the constituents of Cochrane South, and I want to do that. In the 52 minutes that I have to bring that forward, I'm going to limit my comments to those particular things.

I guess the first point I would want to make is the whole question of what's happened to the budget of the Ministry of Agriculture. You will know that the Ministry of Agriculture, under the previous government, the New Democratic government of Bob Rae, was headed by Minister Elmer Buchanan, who was a tireless worker. Most people would recognize that Minister Buchanan was commented on, by many people in the farm community, as being the most progressive and hardest-working minister they had seen in a long, long time in the province of Ontario.

This is not to take away from our current Minister of Agriculture, but I think he walks into a ministry and, quite frankly, into the shoes of a minister who really worked hard at protecting and speaking out on behalf of farmers.

I think the farm community looked at this government being elected in 1995 because a lot of farmers politically are of a Conservative stripe. Party politics being what it is, a lot of farmers would understand that you vote with the people you belong to, and they voted for the Conservative government in the belief that the farming community would be well served under a Conservative government. They didn't believe that electing a Conservative government would change negatively the initiatives that the NDP government had put in place; in fact, they felt a Conservative government would be fairly sympathetic.

But I can tell you, speaking to farmers across my communities, through Iroquois Falls, through Matheson and Timmins, through Earlton, which I drive through every week to get to Queen's Park, and various farming people in northern Ontario in around the Sudbury area, they're finding in effect that they're being somewhat surprised by the outcomes of what this government has done when it comes to agriculture.

I guess the first thing, where the rubber meets the road, is that the commitment of farming is based upon two facts. A person looking at the Ministry of Agriculture will say, "In regard to policy and the implementation of policy, is the government serious?" Another way you're able to gauge the seriousness with which the government takes the issues of farming is by the funding of that ministry.

You will know that since this government came to power it has cut literally millions of dollars from the budget of the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, and this after the Premier of the province, prior to becoming the Premier, as a member of the third party and the leader of that party, travelled and made promises to the people in the agricultural community that agriculture would not be touched.

If you voted for the Conservative government, they would slash all those other budgets, would cut welfare payments -- yes, they said they'd do that -- would cut unnecessary program spending in all kinds of ministries, from the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, to the ministry of tourism, to the Ministry of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation.

They would touch all those other budgets, but they took great pains, the third party, the Conservative party of the day, with trying to reassure and making promises to farmers of this province that they would not -- I repeat not -- touch the budget of the Ministry of Agriculture. That was sacrosanct, that was the holy of holies, that was the one thing the Conservatives of the day, in third place in this House, said they would not touch. That was one. Others were obviously health care and education, but that's for another debate.

But what did they do upon coming to government? Some people would say they lied. I can't say that here in the assembly. That would be unparliamentary. But certainly the government has moved in a completely different direction than what they promised during the election of 1995 and what they promised the people of this province prior to that election. They promised they would not cut the Ministry of Agriculture, and what do we find?

In July 1995, the ink hadn't even dried on the cabinet documents that swore in the ministers of the crown when the ministry announced a cut of some $13 million from the Ministry of Agriculture. The Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs himself had not been sworn in for more than 60 days, and what is one of the first things he does? He offers on the altar of the Conservative government the Ministry of Agriculture budget as his way of taking

part in the Common Sense Revolution's economic agenda. That, after he said and his party said -- because he was also a member of this assembly between 1990 and 1995 -- that they would not touch the Ministry of Agriculture.

Sure, the Minister of Agriculture went around the province and said: "Don't worry. It's only $13 million. We can find it in efficiencies. We're not cutting. We're not going to cut the Ministry of Agriculture any more. These are all things we can absorb within the Ministry of Agriculture budget." I was told by certain farmers in the north, "Oh, well, it's only $13 million, and the minister assures us that they can deal with that without affecting programs that are so necessary to the farm community and to farm businesses across this province."

I remember talking to my friends in Matheson, farmers who operate various farms in the Matheson area and in Timmins, who told me: "Gilles, you're a nice guy, but the Conservatives, that's where I've been at; my family's voted Tory all these years. And it's only $13 million, and that can be absorbed." I said: "Well, watch. This government is bent on the idea that they are going to dismantle many of the services we take for granted in this province because they don't believe government has a role to play when it comes to public services. You watch. You think you're protected at the Ministry of Agriculture?

I would bet" -- I said that in July 1995 to my friends in the farm community -- "that the government would cut again."

What happened in November? Minister Eves came to the House and made a statement of finances to this Legislature. What did we find inside that statement? Yet another cut to the Ministry of Agriculture.

I remember the election. Do you? Most people who are watching this debate remember the election. "Not a cut to agriculture" was said in the election. Mike Harris swore on the holy of holies that he would not cut the Ministry of Agriculture, yet when this budget statement came in, in the fall of 1995, in November, what was contained in that little document? Yet another cut to the Ministry of Agriculture -- $13.1 million. Now we're up to $26 million. The minister said in November: "Don't worry, you farmers. Don't worry, people in the farm community. We can absorb these cuts.

We can deal with them in efficiencies, efficiencies, efficiencies, efficiencies. Don't worry. Everything's fine. Trust me. Don't worry."

What happened? Yet another budget cut in April. We're getting pretty thin here in the amount of money left at the Ministry of Agriculture. We're getting pretty thin as to how many efficiencies can be found, because the reality is that the Ministry of Agriculture, under the NDP government of Bob Rae, like every other ministry, had been going through for a period of three to four years a restructuring to save dollars.

That ministry had not got an infusion of new money over a three- or four-year period and in fact had lost some money as part of the restructuring we were doing as a government under the social contract. The ministry was already fairly lean when the Conservative government took power, because our government under the New Democrats had, as part of our cost-cutting measures in regard to the restructuring plans of our government, dealt with a lot of issues at the Ministry of Agriculture.

I remember the today Minister of Agriculture standing up in this House in opposition and chastising the Minister of Agriculture of the NDP government and saying: "Oh, the NDP can't do that to the Ministry of Agriculture. You cannot impose the social contract on the employees within that ministry because it's going to affect the delivery of services to the farm community. It cannot be part of any cost measures in regard to the NDP government. If we get elected, we'll never do that."

In the budget of 1996 what did we find? We found yet another cut -- $56.7 million. Altogether we have $56.7 million plus $26.1 million that has been cut up to date in the Ministry of Agriculture. How is the Ministry of Agriculture going to be able to deliver the programs to the farm communities of the farmers in northern Ontario and all over this province without the dollars to deliver those programs? Because there won't be any programs is part of the answer, and the other answer is that there won't be any staff, because most of the staff within the ministry are also being laid off.

You would know that in the budget statement of the Ministry of Agriculture back in May or April of this year, when the business plans were announced in this House, of 1,850 employees within the Ministry of Agriculture, 954 of those employees were going to get pink slips -- half -- gone, finis, partis. How is the Ministry of Agriculture going to be able to deliver those services? They won't. They can't. They won't have the staff and they won't have the dollars.

I come back to that party in third place in the Parliament of 1990-95, the Conservative Party of that date. I remember them so well. They stood in this House and said: "We will not touch agriculture. We make a solemn pledge. We promise agriculture will not be touched." We find out the Conservatives are sheep in wolves' clothing --

Mr Joseph Spina (Brampton North): Wolf in sheep's clothing.

Mr Bisson: Something like that. It sounded good anyway. But the point is, we're finding out that they're really chameleons -- very good -- when it comes to how they operate in opposition to how they operate in government. They told people in opposition that agriculture would not be touched and, as a consequence, a whole bunch of rural members were elected across the province on the basis of the pledge and promise made by the then leader of the third party, Mike Harris, and the then critic of agriculture.

What do we get now? If was a rural member in the Conservative Party, I think I would say, "Well, I've got a pretty good base of vote and support in my riding, because it's voted Tory for all those years." But I can tel