VOL. 3 NO. 21 THIRD SESSION OF THF THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NE1i'7F'OUNDLMTD :ORELH1I!Tli.RY UNEDITED TRJINSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSF'KBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. TUESDAY, APRIL 10, 1984

-4 . April 10,1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m . Mr .Speaker in the C~Air. l-!R.SPEAKER (Russell): !1R..NEARY: MR.SPEAKER: Tape No. 829 Order, please ! Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the ah-1 Opposition, a point of order. MR . NEAR Y: It is not a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, it is more of a point of order. ltr. Speaker 7 I was driving home this morning and I heard the Bobsy Twins responding to a lady who called in to say that I said in the House-or outside the House or somewhere, I do not know how she ever got the idea- that I had said that the Premier was having parties in Confederation Building. ~1r.

Speaker, I said no such thing. '1'7ha t I was referring to yesterday in the House and outside the House was the victory party ~~ey had on Saturday night somewhere here in St. John's. Mr. Speaker, I do not know >'lhat kind of an

interpretation they put on what I said, but the Bobsy Twins certainly should have known better. I did not make any such statement. SO HE HON. ~1Ei'·'1BERS : Who ? r.-1ho ? MR.NEARY: The Bobsy T\-1ins over at VOCM. t-r.r. Speaker, I rise on a point of order merely to clarify the matter. Hr. Speaker, I did not say, have never said that the Premier was having parties in Confederation Building as was reported . Apparently it was some kind of a convoluted report of something I said on CBC that led to this. But I just want to clear that up because that is not what I said nor did I intend it that way. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition did rise on a point of order and explained 2230

April 10 ,1984 Tape No . 829 ah -2 MR .SPEAKER (Russell ): point of order . exactly why he raised this Before we proceed, I understand we have two groups in the gallery from the Labrador Inuit Association·Mr . Willi~~ Anderson and Sharon Edmunds ; and from the community of Herring Neck a delegation of Bar ba ra Richmond, Max Holwell , Edward Blandford and Ro ss Warren . I welcome these pe op le to the galleries today . SOt-I.E RON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! STATEMENTS BY !1INISTERS MR .SPEAKER : The hon . Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. HOME HON.MEMBERS : Be ar, hear' MR . SIMMS : Mr .

Speaker, first of all may I welcome to th e gallery as wel l the Pre sid ent of th e LIA,Mr . Ander son,and Miss Edmunds,part of a group which I had the pleasure of meeting with this morning . And I wish to advi se the Hou se that I did meet with the Labrador Inuit Ass ociation to di scuss the issue of new harve sting plans for the George River 223 1

April 10, 1984 Tape 830 EC - 1 MR. SI.[vi'.MS: caribou herd. Also in attendance at the meeting were my colleagues, the han. the Minister of Development (.[vl'x. Windsor) and the hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie). Interest was expressed, Mr. Speaker, by the Labrador Inuit Association concerning the sport hunt and the need for close consultation during its development and implementation.

In this regard, I have agreed to an annual meeting with the Labrador Inuit Association to discuss in detail all aspects of the sport hunt pertaining to my department, and I have requested input from the L.I.A. on any issue they wish addressed concerning the hunt. I feel that both parties recognize the economic benefits to be accrued. However,it is essential that the programme is administered in a responsible manner. I feel that the open door policy between government and the Labrador Inuit Association will ensure that this becomes a reality. As a result of a proposal, Mr.

Speaker, presented at our meeting by the Labrador Inuit Association, I am pleased to announce today that my department will permit the L.I.A. to undertake a commercial caribou harvest in Northern Labrador to supply meat to communities who find it difficult in obtaining same. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: The merits of this programme were addressed in the recent study recomme~ding the sport hunt, and it was evident from the data available that the resource base, contrary to some opinion, is more than adequate to meet the demands of both programmes.

My department will be preparing the necessary regulatory changes to permit this harvest and I am delighted that the L.I.A. will be immediately 2232

April 10, 1984 T.ape 830 EC - 2 MR. SIMMS: developin g plans to ta~e advantage of this programme, and make it available to serve the needs of our Labrador people. SOME BON. ME~1BERS: Bear, hear! MR. SIMMS: This is a major ~olicy change in dealing with the utilization of a renewable resource. However, we are convinced, based on available data, that the programme can be viable and can be sustained for the foreseeable future . As I have said on many occasions, Mr.

Speaker, resource needs for the people of Labrador \olill be our first priority, and I am sure that all members of this House will agree that this initiative has strengthened this particular position. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! HR. ~'lARREN: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains . MR . WARREN: Mr . Speaker, I rise to respond to the minister 's statement in a very favourable ~~er. The minister has finally seen the light . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. i'mRREN: He has seen what the people of Labrador have been advocating FOr some time. 2233

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 831 MJ - 1 MR. I'TARREN : It is good to know that the minister has given the LIA Permission to go ahead with a commercial caribou harvest. If the minister would only qo back four or five months ago when he brought it in in his Ministerial Statement about the sports hunt, it was without consultation with the peoole. This again shows, Mr. Speaker, that we on this side !"'a.y be sJ:T\all in nUI!lber, but at least we are making t~~ ministers realize that you just cannot run roughshod over the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. I must say, Mr.

Speaker, that I am quite pleased th~t two of the representatives from the LIA arein the gallery and I am sure they are pleased that the minister had the initiative to go ahead with this hunt in a positive manner· that will benefit the people of Labrador first. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEA.T<ER (Russell): The han. the member for F.'ogo. MR. TULK: Hr. Speaker, yesterday evening in the House, on the Atlantic Sall1\on r1anagement Plan 1 I asked the Hiniste.,. of Fisheries (Mr. Horgan) if he would give us a copy of the Telex that he had sent to the federal l~inister of Fisheries U-1r.

De Bane) • He did that yesterday evening and we studied his Telex. I want to make one point now quite clear,that we want to make the approach to Ottawa completely nonpartisan- we on this -side of the House. But there are certain things in the minister's T.elex which I cannot agree with, there are certain things there that I believe are not strong enough and perhaps not pushing enough. For example, the minister, I believe, has agreed with a hTo week delay in the salmon fishery without compensation for 2234

April 10, 1984 Tape No . 831 MJ - 2 ~!R . TULK : the loss of income to fishermen, and that I find somewhat difficult to agree with. But in trying to keep this nonpartisan and in trying to work out a unified position for the Rouse to be presented to the federal Hinister of Fisheries (Mr . De Bane) 1 I want to ask the minister if he ~tTill agree to have a unified posi tion to be established by myself and him, in consultation with our own people, our otvn caucuses, outside the House will he agree that we will sit down and work out a satisfac tory approach to Ottawa on behal f of the fishermen of Newfound land? MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR . 1-10RGAN : ~x. Speaker, I am glad to see that the Opposition accepted my appeal made ye sterdav to them during debate that this matter be aporoached to determine at least once in the history of - indeed not in history,bu~ in the history of my standin g in the House as a member ,that the Liberal Party can show that it has some influence over party policy ~ OttatY"a . 2235

April 10, 1984 Tape 832 PK 1 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, before I go any further I would to table that Telex. I was asked to table it yesterday, table this Telex sent yesterday morning. And I want to say first of all I do not know why the Opposition still leaves the impression that I am agreeing to anything. I merely said that we would consider a 10 per cent reduction. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table this document,first of all, the Telex went yesterday morning to the minister in Ottawa, and to say at the same time that we never did agree, I never did say that I agreed to a two or three week or any period of curtailment or delay except to say that we would consider a 10 per cent reduction reasonable based on a 50 per cent to 80 per cent reduction in the . rest of Atlantic Canada. That is the position we took in the discussions and we take now.

In the meantime,may I inform the hon. gentlemen and the House that this morning we had a lengthly telephone conference hook-up with the minister and his senior officials, Dr. Art May,and his assistant deputy,Mr. Stein 1 and including my deputy and other officials in the department and we discussed this whole issue. He is now in the process of forwarding detailed information to us with regards to his understanding that only 10 per cent will be the reduction in the number ~f salmon caught by a three week delay. We have asked him for the information and a breakdown of regions.

We understand,for example, the Southwestern part of the Province,in LaPoile area, that that would be much greater than 10 per cent, it is more like 60 per cent. That is where most of the salmon is caught - MR. NEARY: yesterday. MR. MORGAN: I told you that -whereas it averaged out around the 2236

April 10, 1984 Tape 832 PI< - 2 MR . MORGAN : Province to be 40 per cent in our estimation, 35 per cent to 40 per cent . Mr . De Bane said this morning that hi s bio logist s and scientist s are saying otherwise . So he has agreed to forward all of the data and information, he is now doing it by Tele x this afternoon to the official s in my department . And he has agreed further to come to Newfoundland over the weekend for a meeting with me to di scuss ~~e whole issue . SOME RON . ~~ERS : Rear, hear! MR .

MORGAN: He wi ll be here this weekend and we have agreed to meet and discuss it, and especially with regards to the content of my Telex sent to him yesterday morning . I am hoping with the combined efforts of all member s of the House , the Opposition with ua 2237

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 833 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: I have no objection whatsoever to the Opposition assigning a spokesman to sit down to that meeting on salmon. I have no objection whatsoever, I think it would be worthwhile to have him at that meeting - on that one topic 1 to discuss the Atlantic salmon policy,and to go over with him his information supplied to us now 1 and to go over what we feel is going to be more than a 10 per cent reduction in certain areas of the Province. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please!

Before I introduce the hon. member I would just like to welcome another group to the gallery, a delegation from ~otwood,wit~ Mayor Elliott, councillors Langdon, Woodsworth and rhompson. I do welcome them to the galleries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: Hear, hear. The hon. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, that was going to be my second question to the minister,that if we could work out a unified position of this House to be presented to the federal Minister of Fisheries (_Mr. De Bane) 1 would we indeed also be included in any meetings that were held with th.e minister?

He has answered that and we certainly accept that once we have worked out a unified position. But I would ask the minister further if we could - there are a number of things wrong with it outside of this House , whether it be today or tomorrow 1 work out a position that i:s satisfactory to both sides of this House, if we can do that, can we at least get together to see if we can do that 1 to work out a unified position that is the consensus of this House? Because there are a couple of things that I want to see changed rn the minister's arguments which I think are somewhat weak, !JI.R •. SPEAKER:' MR ..

MORGAN: 2238 Th.e hon .. Minister of Fisheries. Maybe I will read for the record,

April 10, 1984 Tape No . 833 so - 2 MR . 110RGAN: Mr. Speaker, the Telex which clearly outlines what we are saying, the Telex to Mr. De Bane sent yesterday morning : "The announcement made by you over the \veekend does not reflect the conversation held bet\-l'een us on the morning of Ap ri l 5. In essence ,t he off icial manageme nt plan of your department as announced is must more severe than you had earlier indicated.

"Our discussion of April 5 related to six important issues and you indicated as follows : Number one: r-1axitnum curtailment of ti-I'O week delay in opening date which would result in approximately 10 per cent reduction in commercia l s almon la ndings . Number two: Fart ­ time fishermen would have their licences cancelled and compensation of $500 per fisherman would be provided for a 'once only deal' . Number three: Permit trans~ers of licences between family members. Number four : There would be increased efforts to curtail the Greenland fishery .

Number five; ~here will be increased spendings towards salmon enhancement proar~~es. And number six ) ~here will be increased efforts to reduce poaching and to improve the habitat . 223 9

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 834 NM - 1 HR. MORGAN: '1 The official management policy being carried by the media indicates the opening date will be delayed by three weeks, until June 11, and there is no mention of part-time fishermen having their licences cancelled while the other issues receive minimal coverage. It is my strong belief that this delayed opening date will result in decreased landings by commercial fishermen of approximately 30 per cent to 40 per cent, not the 10 per cent as your announcement indicates.

And this will place additional restriction on full-time fishermen without phasing out part-time salmon fishermen and this is simply unacceptable. "I would strongly urge you to review this matter and to reflect our original discussion. '1I. am further available for discussion upon your request.'' Now that Telex I think clearly outlines the policy that was to be announced on Friday and was not announced, there were some major changes made to it, major as far as we are concerned. So my suggestion now, Hr.

Speaker, is that,based on that Telex, and based on the Telex· sent yesterday by the Opposition, that we indeed sit down and come to an understanding as to what we think is a reasonable position taken by the Province as a whole moreso than any party, to the benefit of the fishermen, taking into consideration these issues I pointed out,with the Greenland fishery 1 about the salmon enhancement programme, and about the poaching and about the curtailment in other provinces. And if we did that,maybe we will be able to persuade Mr. De Bane to change his policy. But I must say, Mr.

Speaker, in adding to that,that there has been input frorr the Fishermen's Union and this Telex from us here and a Telex from the Opposition, and at this time Mr. De Bane is standing firm on the data provided to him from his 2240

April 10, 1984 Tape No . 834 MR . MORGAN: biologists and from his scient ists , and he is still convinced that this delay in opening of three weeks will still NM - 2 only mean a 10 per cent reduc .tion. Now he is basing his information on his biologists and the scientific information avaialble to him and ., as I said earlier 1 that will be relayed to us to be analyzed,and then we can sit down with him on Sunday,and hopefully 1as I say,with the Opposition joining forces with us, and supporting what we are saying on the issues, that we can get the policy changed ,at least not to be as severe.

I-Te have to agree on cons ervation, Mr . Speaker. MR . TULK: Oh,absolutely! MR . MORGAN: Anybody today who stands and says, "No, we are opposed to conservation. No, we are opposed to any curtailment at all , No, we are opposed to what he is trying to do, the concept, " I think would be totally wrong, irresponsible. 2241

April 10, 1984 Tape 835 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: We have to agree to conservation measures unless we are going to see the salmon fishery in the same state as our herring fishery,and we no longer have a herring fishery around our coastline. So, Mr. Speaker, based on that, I think if we can agree together on a reasonable conser­ vation measure, hopefully we can persuade the federal minister (Mr. De Bane) to agree with us. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Fogo. Mr.

Speaker, let me first of all clear up the idea that anybody is joining with anybody to take their plan. But let me say to the minister,too, quite clearly, two things; that we on this side have established our own position; we have it but we are not going to release it to anybody until we have had a chance to meet with the minister, because we think that would not be the way we should negotiate a unified position to take forward to the minister. MR. NEARY: Right on! MR.

TULK: But let me say to him quite clearly that we on this side recognize - and let not anybody be under any illusion that we do not - that we have to conserve the salmon stocks and that we have to perhaps rebuild them, and let that be quite clear to the federal minister. But the one big thing that concerns us on this side - and hopefully we can get together with the minister outside of the House to straighten this out - is that there is nowhere in ~~e minister's Telex the idea that if you are going to delay the opening of the salmon fishery and the fishermen lose income,that they have to be compensated for it.

Now, Sir, that is one of our prime concerns. HR. NEARY: Right on! . 2242

April 10, 1984 Tape 835 EC - 2 MR. TULK: I 1.;ill not get into the rest of them at this point, but I will just ask the minister if, quite simply, we could, perhaps immediately after Question Period or sometime this evening, get together to lay out the groundwork on which we will do the thing that has to be done in approaching the federal minister? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. HR. MORGAN: ~x. Speaker, I see nothing wrong with that; in fact 1I welcome that suggestion. This evening, the Estimates Committee on fisheries starts at, I think, 7:30 p.m.

My suggestion is that maybe we get together around 7:00 p.m. at the Colonial Building. I have some delegations this afternoon, but if at all possible betlveen now and 6:00 p.m.~~ get together for some discussion and then the follow-up this evening around 7:00 p.m., before the Estimates Committee, and hopefully get something in a joint way to sit down with Mr. De Bane on Sunday. MR. TULK: MR. \'I"ARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Mountains. Okay, no problem. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Torngat MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andrews).

Last night in Estimates Committee on his department, I asked the minister about the concern that has been expressed about the German Air Force, the Luftwaffe, going into Goose Bay and the effect of low flyinq on the caribou herds. I would like to ask the minister would his department consider carrying out an environmental assessment on the possible effect of low flying aircraft on the herd? I understand the German Air Force will be increasing their presence in Goose Bay this year and they will be taking in 2243

April 10,1984 Tape No. 836 ah-1 MR. 1\TARREN: a bigger radius. I would like to ask the minister would his department consider taking upon doing a environmental assessment review on the potential that these low flying aircraft would have on the wildlife in Labrador? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Hinister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr.

Speaker, we discussed this last night in my estimates and my reply was and still is that we have reviewed the proposal put forward to us by National Defence through the West German Air Force and discussed it with all agencies that would be concerned, and particularly the ~lildlife Branch of the provincial government,and see no reason to do anything more. We have made some minor changes in the proposed area that the Germans wanted to use. This is satisfactory to the Wildlife people and it is quite satisfactory to us.

But seeing the concern of the member 1 I will certainly review the situation again at this point in time. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.mernber for Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker, in this same respect I would like to ask a new question to the Minister for Forests ·Resources and Lands (Mr.Power). I presume it is the minister who is responsible. I understand that the Canadian Air Force on behalf of the German Air Force is applying for extra land in Labrador to carry out their low flying activities.

I beg to differ if I am asking the question to the wrong ministe~ but could I ask the minister if he has received any requests from the Canadian Air Force for a permit to extend German activity in Labrador? 2244

April 10,1984 MR.SPEAKER (Russe ll ): Resources and Lands. MR .P OWER: Tape No. 836 ah-2 The hon . Minister of Forests, Mr . Speaker, I am not aware of any such application but I certainly will undertake on behalf of the member to find out and bring the answer back tomorrow . MR .NE.Il.RY: MR. SPEAKER : Opposition . MR . NEARY: Mr . Speaker . The hon. Leader of the Mr . Speaker, I would like to direct a question or two towards the Minister of Justice (Mr .Ottenheimer) . I would like to start out by asking the minister what has happened to our once happy Province? Mr .

Speaker , today in Newfoundland people are almost afraid to walk the streets , Service stations and convenience stores ·are being robbed right, left and centre , Armed robbery . There are all kinds of crime, Mr . Speaker, You can hardly pick up your newspaper or turn on a news cast but you hear a report of some violent crime taking place in this Province. {fuat is happening, Mr . Speaker? Has the minister with his policy spread the Ne.,.lfoundland Constabulary now too thin? They have taken in the metropolitan areas around St . John's. Are they spread too thin?

Are they able to carry our the surveillance . that is necessary? 2245

April 10, 1984 Tape 837 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the rate of crime has 'skyrocketed in this Province. Here we were once happy Province, you did not even have to lock your door : Or, Mr. Speaker, is it the direct result of the mismanagement of the economy by the administration there opposite that is causing crime and violence in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, essentially I think, although there is obviously a specific question there in general terms, there are also two sort of sub-questions,and that is is it the government's policy which has resulted in these crimes, or is the Royal Newfoundland Constabularly encouraging them or being complacent about them or something like that? Certainly all han. members regret any violent crime; indeed regret every form of crime but especially violent crime upon or against the person. &~d also, of course, crimes with respect to property. What is happening in Newfoundland,of course , is evident.

Newfoundland follows in terms of behaviour - it is part of North America, it is obviously part of Canada, - as overall North American environment. Pmd in many ways the good things which develop from, if you wish to call it in general, North American culture, I guess, we benefit from. But the unfortunate things, the pejorative things, the negative - that is the right word -the negative aspects of North American culture we inherit as well. As the han. member knows,in the words of John Donne 1 "No man is an island" and t~at is true of Newfoundland in terms of the influences operative here.

Although geographically the Island part of the Province is an island, certainly in terms of influence that is the case. And certainly all han. members in the government, all han. members on both sides· and the Depart:ma'lt of Just ,i ce are very concerned when there is 2246

April 10, 1984 Tape 837 PK - 2 MR. OTTENHEii'1ER: an increase in crime and when there is violent crime and when there is also cr~~es of armed robbery, break and "entry, that kind of thing. But all one can do is do everything possible, number one, to prevent crime. And that is somethi ng which , of course, all of society has a certain role in not only the Department of Justice, but families,educational institutions, the whole social struc~ure obviously has to participate in that because the question of overall values,I think everybody recognizes that.

And the police, the two forces in the Province 1the RCMP and the RNC to the best of their ability prevent it then to the best of ~~eir ability 2247

April 10, 1984 Tape l'Io. 838 MJ - 1 HR. OTTENHEHfER: detect and arrest and charge people who are guilty of it. But it is unfortunate that indeed as part of North American society we inherit the good things 1but we cannot inherit the good 1it would appear,without inheriting the negative as well. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition a supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hbn. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, you know the hon. gentleman there a few moments ago said that so~ewhere in between I indicated that the Newfoundland Constabulary were encouraging this.

Look,I hardly have to reply to it. But I must say that I am flabbergasted at the minister's reply, his reply that Newfoundland is really only catching up now to the rest of North America. ~I. Speaker, I am amazed and flabbergasted at that kind of a statement from the minister. I would have expected him to be more agressive in this matter because people are alarmed at the high rate of violent crimes in this Province. Let me ask the minister what extraordinary measures that he intends to take to try to curb violent crime in this Province?. ~or instance, Mr.

Speaker, the other day we discovered that the Chief of Police has been of£ sick for some time 0 Is he now back in his position? Who is in command now, Mr. Speaker? Could the hon. gentleman give us a few details? Is the morale of the Newfoundland Constabulary now as good as it has always been? Mr. Speaker, it is a pretty serious matter. As I said earlier, one 'time you could leave your door open in Newfoundland 1but today you are almost afraid to walk the street after dark, ~rr. Speaker. That is what it is reaching in this Province. MR. SPE.IIJ<ER: Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition 2248 .

.'\pril 10, 1984 Ta9e No . 838 :1J - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : has made a fairly lengthy

preamble to what was recognized as a supplementary que sti on. The hon. the Mini ster of Justice . MR . OTTENEEIMER: ~x. Speaker , Chief ;oche is still on sick leave, Deputy Cheif ?Andel! is in charge during that period; tha t certainly has nothing to do with any crimes \o/hich have happened in the interim . I mean, certainl .V there is no causal connection or circumstantial connection or any kind of connection toJhat soever in that area. Ni th respect to the morale 2249

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 839 NM - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: of the force, to the best of my knowledge the morale is very high. I attended an induction ceremony, I guess about ten days ago 1 where thirty-three I believe is the exact number, people were sworn in and the morale of the Constabulary is very good indeed. I certainly did not state that Newfoundland is catching up with the rest of North America, therefore hurrah, hurrah, three cheers, now we are cathing up,we have got more crime.

What I did state is an obvious fact, not something to be wished, not some­ thing to be desired but something to be seen, something which is evident; even if we do not like it we cannot deny it. And that is that Newfoundland, as an integral part of North America society,obviously the factors which are operative in North America, the influences which are operative in the rest of Canada in particular 1 in North America in general, obviously are operative here.

It is not as if we were not part of North America in terms of our values, in terms of what comes in television, in terms of what we read, in terms of what we hear, in terms of attitudes of people, attitudes toward authority; in all of these things obviously we are very much a part of North America and are recipients of the North American influence. And those things which are positive and beneficial are operative in Newfoundland; it is unfortunate that those things which are negative are also operative here.

Certainly the two police forces, the RCMP and the R~C, I have a high level o~ confidence, as the government does 1 in both of those forces in their work of provincial policing in Newfoundland and Labrador, 2250

.~pril 10, 1984 Tape No . 839 NM - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: and they are doing everything possible and operating, in my opinion, on a high level of professional conpetence, doing everything possible with respect to the prevention and detection of crime. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Before I recognize the hon. Leader of the Opposition (l1r . NearY) , I would just like to take a minute to welcome a delegation fro m the Kilbride Citiz ens Committe e to the gal ler ies,with Mr. Frank Stanley, Mr . John Weiqer, and Mr . Mark Nalsh . SOME BON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! 2251

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 840 so - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I agree that the RCMP and the Newfoundland Constabulary are doing their job to the best of their ability with the wherewithal that has been provided by the hon. gentleman. But what I would have expected him to say today is that the minister, as a result of this rash of violent crime in the Province 1 was going to step up surveillance, step up patrols, that there was going to be something positive done by the minister to try to curb these violent crimes.

Now the han. gentleman mentioned that Deputy Chief Randell was now in charge of the Newfoundland Constabulary. What has happened to Deputy Chief Coady? I thought there was ·a Deputy Chief. What has happened to the Deputy Chief? Is he on sick leave also? Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman also, because we do not have much time left in the Question Period, let me ask the hon. gentleman what about the Police Commiss-ion that we have been talking about in this H.ouse for several years - past? AN HON. MEMBER: We do not have one. MR.

NEARY': We do not have one, that is the trouble. -!'Till the hon. gentleman nmv, :·l.r. S:?eaker, admit that it was a mtstake to delay the implementation of a Police Commission in Newfoundland here in the city of St. John's, that that would be a great help in these trying time, Mr. Speaker? And I' ask the hon. gentleman now to express his views on that. Does he now think that it is high. time that we had a Police Commission? And would the han. gentleman tell us what extraordinary measures are going to be taken on behalf of his department to restore Newfoundland to the once happy Province that it was?

Or i:s the hon. gentleman just going lay· back and throw up his arms and say, '·There is.· nothing we can do about it anyway''? MR-.. SPEA.KER: The han, Minister of Justice. 2252

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 840 SD -2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, certainly the hon. gentleman should be aware that at the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary the structure has· always been one Chief of Police, two Deputy Chiefs of Police. That has been there for several years. Chief of Police Roche, two Deputy Chiefs -Deputy Chief Randell and Deputy Chief Coady. Chief of Police Roche is now on s·ick leave. One of the J?eputy Chiefs, Deputy Chief Randell 1 who is senior in that he has been a member of the force many more years than Deputy Chief Coad~ is now in charge.

Deputy Chief Coady is still Deputy Chief Coady and nothing has changed there. With respect to a Police Commission ,the fact that we have or we do not have a Police Commission has nothing to do with the rate of crime. If a person is going to sit down and figure out whether he is going to break and enter into the han. Minister of Public Works •· (Mr. Youngl home, he is not going to say, 'Now, I wonder if there is a Police Commission? If there is a Police Commission I will not do it,and if there is a Police Commission I will not do it I·. MR. TULK: He jokes about it. 2253

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 841 MJ - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMRR: Whether there is a Police co:rn.rnission or not has nothing to do with the crime rate. As I have eMplained before.in areas where t~ere is a Police Co~ission, and I suppose the closest one is the most logical one to look at anct that is in ~ova Scotia, in Nova Scotia there are approximately thirteen police forces, there is Halifax, · there is Dartmouth, there is Antigonish, there is Truro,there is Bridgewater, there are several others, there are New Glasgow, Sidney - MR. ~'TARREN: That is North and South. MR.

OTTENHEI~£R: - North and South I am told - so there are about · twelve or thirteen police forces all with their own chief and all responsible to a municipality, because law enforcement in Nova Scotia is regarded as a provincial responsibility. So in order to qet any semblance of uniformity in terms of training, in terms of professional standards, in any kind of conformity whatsoever, any kind of uniform practise,there has to be a Police Commission 'which oversees all of these twelve or thirteen forces.

Now in Newfoundland we only have two forces doing provincial policing, the P.C~...P and the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. So the reason that you have the Police Commission, to co-ordinate and to trv to give some uniformity to twelve or thirteen or fourteen different organizations all with their own chiefs 1does not exist here. There is not need for it .

NK.~ if we were to have one - ~could still have one even if there is not a need- we could say, 'We •11ill have one even though that is unnecessary.' , But that is just another level of bureaucracv, another level of expenditure, another level of red ta9e 1 which we try to eliminate. There is one thing in all governments - and I suppose ours included - red tape is a nuisance and it is very frustrating for ministers and we all try to cut through it as quickly as we can. But we 2254

M>ril.lO, 1984 Tape No . 841 MJ - 2 HR . OTTENHE:LMER: certainly do not want - if there is no need for a Police ComJI'\is .sion - we certainly do not want to cr eate one to have another unnecessary level of bureaucracy and expense and red tape . M.R . NEARY : ~lr . speaker. MR . SP~~R (Russell} : The hon . the Leader of the Opposition . ~1R . NEARY : !-ir . Speaker, I must say that •t~e are shocked on this side of ,the House to see how lightly hon. gentlemen there opposite treat ~~is matter . The hon. the minister does not seem to be concerned at all.

They think it is funny. ~'le are asking the 1-iinister of Justice (Hr. Ottenheimer) some ve ry serious questions about the high rate of crime, the way that violent crime has esca~ated in this Province, and '"e have the seals and the sh eep over there pounding on their desks when the hon. gentleman says something funny. It is not funny, ~tr . Speaker. The hon . gent leman should address himse l£ to the fact t~at people «re concerned a~o u t b~i s ~atter , 2255

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 842 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: And the hon. gentleman should tell the House ... :: let me ask the hon. gentleman again, Mr. Speaker - if his department intends to take any extraordinary measures to deal with these matters, to step up patrols, to step up surveillance? Does the RCMP and the Newfoundland Constabulary have sufficient staff, are they following the proper procedures, or are they understaffed? These are the questions the hon. gentleman should address himself to, Mr. Speaker, never mind poking fun, because it is not funny at all. It is a pretty serio~s matter. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEA...T<ER: to answer the question? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Does the hon. minister have leave No. MR. SPEAKER: Leave has not been granted. PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's North. SOME HON. ME~BERS: Hear, hear! MR. CARTER: Hr.

Speaker, as Chairman of the Committee on Social Services' estimates I would like to report that the Committee has passed Head XII, Environment; Head XIII, Education; Head XIV, Social Services; Head XV, Health; Head XVIII, Culture, Recreation and Youth; Head XIX, Justice: all without amendment~ ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. 2256

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 842 NM - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear : MR . GOUDIE: Mr . Speaker, I want to table the answer to a question posed by the gentleman representing Torngat Mountains (Mr . Warren ), in which he enquires for a list of all reports and studies commissioned by my department since 1980. ORDERS OF THE DAY : On moti on, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Commission Of Offences Against The Laws Of The Province By Young Per sons," read a th ird time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill ~o. 11) Motion, the hon .

Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The District Court Act, 1976," carried. (No . 1) On motion, Bi ll No . 1 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR . SPEAKER : Order 3, Concurrence Motion, I believe the hon . Leader of the Opposition adjou .rned the debate last night . MR. NEARY: Mr . Speaker, we are now doing concurrence on a motion moved by the Chairman of the Government Services Committee, the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross), I think. 2257

... April 10, 1984 Tape 843 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: ~·7e are discussing the estimates of the Department of Public Works, Transportation, Finance, Labour and Manpower and Municipal Affairs. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have a number of questions involving some of these departments that I would like to put to hon. gentlemen. I would like to ask the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn), ~x. Speaker, what he thinks of the recommendation from the Employers' Labour Council on the two-tier minimum wage. Now, we put the question to the minister in Committee but we did not get a very good answer from the han. gentleman.

I believe he should tell the House now whether the government has just disregarded the recommendation made by the Employers' Labour Council. Has it been just tossed into the garbage bin where it should go, Mr. Speaker? Because, as han. members know, we have done away with the two-tier minimum wage system in this Province, and I do not think we should go back to it. I think it would be a very retrogressive step indeed. I would like to hear what the minister has to say about that. I would like to direct a question also, Mr. Speaker, to the ~nister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) in connection with the Bell Island ferry service. Now, han. members are aware that there are severe protests from the people of Bell Island jJecause 1in the next five years, rates across the Tickle will double and, Mr. Speaker, that will be devastating for the people who have to commute back and forth to work. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: The same way with Fogo Island. Yes, and Fogo Island the same way. But Bell Island is getting the highest increase in 2258

April 10, 1984 Tape 843 EC - 2 MR . NEARY : the whole Province . t-1R . TULK : l.Jhy is that? M.~ . NEARY: Wny, I do not know . MR . TULK: aecause they had the lowest increase in something else? MR. NEARY : ~x . Speaker, as far as we are concerned , let me state a policy. Let me state a concept, a policy that I think should be adopted by this House, and that is that tvhere you have islands and communities that are - MR. TULK: Sit doHn and listen to this now. MR. NEARY: The hen. gentleman should sta y, he might learn something.

I happen to think that the Bell Island ferry service and the Fogo Island ferry service should be an extension of the highway system. MR. TULK: Right on, Sir ! MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker , there should be no charge . MR. TULK: Right on! M.~. MORGAN : Where have you been the last twenty years. MR . NEJI.RY : I beg your parcon? MR. MORGAN: iVhere have you been when Otto Lang and all your colleagues in Ottatva \·:ere settin 'J U!' the user -pay concept? MR. NEARY: Mr .

Spea~er, i~ case the hen. gentle..>nan is not aware , or in case early senility has set in and the hen. gentleman is losing his memory and he does not remember, Mr . Frank Moores, when he was campaigning in the provincial election in 1975, went to Bell Island and at St. Pat 's Theatr~where he had a political rally, he told the people of Bell Island that if his administration 2259

April 10, 1984 Tape 843 EC - 3 MR. NEARY : were elected - !P- . DI~l: 'las that not after you headed for La.Poile? MR. NEJI..RY : Pardon? !-!..'1 . DINN : Is that the time you out your running shoes on and headed for LaPoile? MR . NEARY: The hon . ge ntleman was a minister . The hon . gentleman '''as in that administration whe n Mr . Moores told the people of Bell Island that if his administration \vere re-elected that they would make the ferry service a continuation, an extension of the highway system . SOiill BON . ~miSEPS: MR • Nl"_.ARY : Oh , oh! The hon . the member for Exploits (D r.

T\o~omey) supported that administration . And here \ve are nine years later and are they c;oing to k~ that !)ro rrri.se? No . tvna t they are going to do in a cruel and callous way, without going to the Public Utiliti es Board for approval, for a hearing, is they make a decision on the eighth floor do\om in the Cabinet Room to ~.PcrP.aFe the rates. !1R . Al."fDREV7S : Not a bad !'lace to make a decision , I suppose . MR . NEARY : No , the Public Utilities Board always made these decisions and now that right 2260

April 10,1984 Tape 844 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: has been taken over by the Cabinet. The people of Bell Island never had an opportunity to have any input to go and rcise any objection or complaint. They had applications before which always had to be made to the Public Utilities Board. This is the first time in our entire history, I suppose, that an arbitrary decision has been made. And the people of Bell Island have no recourse,or Fogo Island have no recourse except now they are holding meetings of protest and demonstration.

But the fact of the matter is that the rates will increase on the Bell Island Tickle for commuters and trucks, it will double in the next five years. That means, Mr. Speaker, that it is going to discourage people from getting jobs on the Mainland, commuting back and forth to work. It is going to increase the cost of living on Bell Island. And the minister did not even have the courtesy to go to Bell Island when he was invited to attend a meeting - MR. DAWE: That is not true. MR. NEARY: - with the committee. MR. DAWE: I was not invited. MR. NEARY: The minister was invited. MR. DAWE: I was? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I beg your pardon he was invited. As a matter of fact 1 a brief was presented to the minister,and the minister told the Commuters' Committee and the Concerned Citizens• Group that they would be given the answers. Every point in their brief, they were told by the minister, would be answered. And they do not have the answers yet. And the minister has refused to meet with them and to give ~hem the answers that they want. 2261

April 10, 1984 MR. DAWE: MR. NEARY: · ..... Tape 844 PK - 2 I met with them several times. Mr. Speaker, so there is the difference in philosophy and ideology. we on this side of the House feel that all ferries should be an extension of the highway system. MR. TULK: We have our policies on paper. MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. TULK: We put our policies on paper. MR. NEARY: We have our policy on paper. Let me see it, No , you go ahead and read it. Mr. Speaker, not only the intra­ provincial ferries but we think the interprovincial ferry service should be a continuation of the Trans-Canada Highway. MR. CALLAN: Right. MR.

NEARY: Now hon. gentlemen can sneer and laugh at that now all they wan~ but that is the difference in Liberalism and Toryism. We think that is a great reform that should be introduced in this Province. And instead of increasing rates - SOME HON. MEMBERS: · Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - if we are going to be equal 1 and we hear the Premier day in and day out talking about equality, JOU know,if Bell Islanders are ever going to be equal to the rest of Newfoundland,or Fogo Islanders or St.

Brendan's or Gaultois or any of these places where you have a ferry service, if they are going to be equal to the rest of Newfoundland , not alone Canada, if they are going to be equal with the rest of Newfoundland and enjoy the same privileges as the rest of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, then these ferries have to become an extension of the highway system , Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: They have the same rights to travel, have they not? 2262

April 10, 1984 Tape 844 PK - J MR . NEARY: They like to cravel,the same right to go shopping, to go to school, to go to university, go to work, go to hospital to visit sick people. Sick people have a right to travel just the same as anybody has the right to travel over a highway. ~~. TULK: That is right. MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is as plain as the nose on your face 1 but what does the administration there opposite do? MR. TULK : Nothing . They up the rates . MR. NEARY: They up the rates. I managed to keep the lid on when I was there. That is one thing I did .

We did not have an increase in ferry rates on Bell Island, I would say, for fifteen years because I always advocated they should be abolished, wiped out. MR. TOLK: If the minister had given us any indications of what was going to happen there we would have kept the lid on again. 22 63

April 10,1984 Tape No. 845 ah-1 MR. NEARY: Yes,if they had not done it down on the eight floor of Confederation Building in the privacy of the Cabinet Room, if they had allowed a hearing at the Public Utilities Board 1 then hon. gentlemen would have gotten the message, Mr.Speaker, of how violent people are towards these increases in the ferry rates. It is a backward step. The hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews) know that. !fR.TULK: We would have rescued him the same as we are going to rescue the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) on the salmon question. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we have rescued a number of ministers over there now; the minister on the caribou herd, the Minister of Fisheries. We throw out policy suggestions, recommendations, ideas, we put them on the table of this House - HR.TULK: MR.NEARY: The Marystown shipyard. The Marystown shipyard, building ferries, that was our suggestion. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Yes, it certainly was our suggestion. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman should remember when I went on a Province-wide broadcast and telecast, the hon. member should remember one of the things I suggested in my Province-wide broadcast,in a rebuttal to the Premier, was that we should start building ferries at Marystown. And incidentially,while we are talking about building .ferries,the John Guy, operating on the tickle, Mr. Speaker, is twenty-five vears old __ and needs to be replaced. HR.DAY.lE: Says who? MR. NEARY: Says everybody except the 2264

April 10,1984 Tape No. 845 ah-2 MR.NEARY: han. gentleman. The CSI, the inspectors,everybody says it. They had to put a new engine in her last year . The ship should be replaced. The John Guy is twenty-five years old and should be replaced, Mr.Speaker.So they should get a ferry built for the Bell Island-Portugal Cove service. They should get a ferry built with icebreaking capability in the Marystown Shipyard. They will scoff at it. MR.TULK: Yes, but they will probably use the idea next year. MR.NEARY: Now,Mr.Speaker, the han. gentleman has treated the people at Bell Island with utter contempt in this matter.

He sneered at the people on Bell Island, the hon.Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). Unless he can fly over,if it is a fine day he can go over in a helicopter or charter a plane,Mr.Speaker, he will not go over. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Order,please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR.NEARY: it shortly, Mr.Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: f.i.ti..MORGAN: I will have another go at The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr.Speaker, I cannot let this go because,although it has nothing to do with fisheries, it is dealing with the estimates in a number of other departments,but I just cannot let this go without rebuttal.

Because the hon. gentleman stands in his place today and talks about transportation ana the problems we are having in transportation on some of the ferry services, he has the gall to stand and say that the Liberal policy is that these ferry services like Fbgb 1 Island and Change Islands and Greenspond and Gaultois and other places around the Province should be part of the Trans-Canada Highway network. Well, f.tt. Speaker, he was in the same 2265

April LO, l9 B4 Tap e No. 845 ah-3 MR.MORGAN: Liberal Party when his colleague in Ottaw ·a, a very arrogant man by the name of Otto Lang 1 was Minister of Transport for Canada. The people dealt with him in not the last general election but the one before that, they voted him out of office because of his arrogance. I was then the Minister of Transportation here in this Province and for four years I dealt with Otta Lang. Mr. Lang,on behalf of the Government of Canada, on behalf of the colleagues of those today in the Liberal Party in Newfoundland,· forced to take over the ferry services in this Province.

It was not a discussion, it was not a dialogue , it was not consultation, it was a matter of coercion,by the federal government coming in and saying you must take over those ferry services. Where? The one to Bell Island, Fogo Island, Change Islands, Greenspond, Gaultois, Ramea. I think that is all of them. And, Mr. Speaker, on top of that 1 the gentleman says that any ferry services should be part of the Trans-Canada Highway. Well 1where was he when Premier ·Moores and this minister here-at the time in Transportation - ..,ras 2266

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 846 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN; fighting day in and day out for four years to try to get his colleagues then in Ottawa to understand not to increase the ferry rates across the Gulf of St. Lawrence? What is the difference between Fogo Island and the Island of Newfoundland? We are indeed linked to a Trans-Canada Highway system across the country of Canada 1 why should we be penalized b~cause we happen to be an Island? Why should we be penalized? 1i·Te kept asking over and over and over the last number of years. Did we have support then, Mr. Speaker, from the same hon. gentleman who now sat down? Mr.

Speaker, we had no support. We had abs·olutely no support from the then Liberal Party, the same gentlemen in the same party. Who was leader then? Th.ere has· been so many in the Liberal Party over the years~ Let me think back. HR. HODDER: He got money for it. MR. MORGAN: Who was leader, I wonder? Was it Mr. Rowe? No. MR. SPEAKER (]l.ylwardl : Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Was it Mr. Roberts? Maybe. Was it Mr. Stirling? No,. it was not, he came later. Mr. Jamieson? No. Mr. Roberts·,I guess·.

Th.ere was so many leader over the last four or five years it is a job to keep track of them all over there, But1anyway,that same hon. ge.ntleman was then in the House as a Liberal, as he is now 1 and th.e federal Liberal government said, '~·Je are going to increase the fares acros.s-the Gulf, we are goi:ng 'to down­ grade your s·ervi:ces,' because the CN Marine has been downgrading the service across· the Gulf; for the last number of years. We have a seco.nd-clas·s service to the mainla.nd and we are being penali.zed as Newfoundlanders·.

Now after all of these years they can stand in the House and suddenly say, ''We believe that all ferry services should be part of the Trans-canada Hi:ghway system anci the road network i:n the Province,' Well1if 2267

April 10, 19_84 Tape No. 846 SD - 2 MR. MORGAN: the same is going to apply to the Bell Island service and the other intraprovincial services, why is it they cannot push their policy and have it apply to the Gulf ferry services 1where tourists today are deterred from coming here because of the high rates, because of the poor service and the level of service, because of the poor vessel maintenance and vessel arrangements and accommodations, etc. , if we are going to have a cons·tant policy? ~'ou see, Mr.

Speaker, what I am pointing out is this , that the Opposition and the Liberal Party in this Province has had no influence, no influence whatsoever with their own colleagues in Ottawa. They have absolutely no influence, T.hey do not listen to them like they listen to the sheep. My appropriate song, 'Voices in the Wind' is so appropriate to them. I recorded it twenty years ago but it is still appropriate today to the Liberal Opposition, 'Voices in the Wind; because the people in Ottawa keep saying that is all they are, the Newfoundland Liberal Party, ''Voices i'n the Wind •·, we do not listen to them.

Who are the Liberal Party? Why should we listen to these people down in Newfoundland? They have absolutely no influence. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. MORGAN: Today, for example, what is it costing for the Bell Island ferry service? It is costing today the taxpayers of our country $2 million on an annual basis, $2 million to keep a ferry service back and forth to Bell Island, $2 ~illion on an annual basis. Each and every year it is· costing $2 million. Now what are we getting from Ottawa towards the subsidies of all the ferries in the Province? What are we getting?

Are we getting $15 million, $16 million, $20 million, $30 million? No, Mr. Speaker. It i:s going to cost to operate Bell Is-land alone $2 million._ And what are we getting from Ottawa in total to help all the ferri-es around the Province? We are getting a total of $2 2268

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 846 so - 3 MR . MORGA.s.'t : million towards all the ferry services - Fogo Island and Change Island and Greenspond and St. Brendan 's and Ramea and Gaultois and all of these places . We are only getting $2 million from Ottawa to help all the ferry services and it is costing $2 million to operate the Bell Island ferry service alone. 2269

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 847 MJ - 1 HR. MORGAN: It is too bad, Mr.

Speaker, that the party that has been opposite to us in stripe- and otherwise in Ottawa over the years- it is too bad that they did not listen to reason, did not listen to our policies, did not listen to our proposals put forward in 1975, in 1976, again in 1978, a detailed transportation position put forward on these ferry services fully pointing out that the people on these little island communities, including Bell Island, because of the unemployment in these areas, beca .use of no industrialized base, because they have not got any major source to get revenue from in their economy, they are unable to afford to pay high rates and high fares.

We kept saying to the~, 'T•Thy should you remove these ferry services? You have taken away the CN coastal boat services 1well 1do not take away the other service we have, the ferry services. Why are you forcing these ferry services on us?' So, at the time 1 I recall, . ~·x. Speaker, that is the reason why - I do not kno\'T if the word 'hypocrisy' is parliamentary or not - but it is hypocrisy, it is total hypocrisy on the part of the Opposition today, The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) I think rnav be looking for a seat this tine on Bell Island, there is a ns11 seat caning up, and he krlows about the boundary changes. He is not going to be re-elected in LaPoile again, we know that and the hon. gentleman is aware of that,so maybe he will have a Come Home Year, he will come back to Bell Island 1 which he ran away from a few years ago because he cou ·ld not get re-elected. Now he is going to stand up with t..his new policy position on ferry services, w·hich is absolutely ridiculous, a position brand-new now because it is politically wise to do so. That is the whole issue.

It is politically wise now to say that they believ~ because the ferry services are part of the Newfoundland Government and we have to maintain the service to Bell · Island, no1r1 they are saying to us, 'Now, Hr. Minister of ':"ransportation 2270

.. April 10, 1984 Ta pe No. 847 MJ - 2 MR. MORGAN: (Hr. Dawe) ' - my colleague, they are saying now - 'you must provide a policy which makes that ferry link to Bell Island and Fogo and these ulaces part of the provincial highwav network.' Nell 1 why is it they take that position today and they took the very opposite positicn ~.,hen the Trans-Canada Highway, the link bet•,.,een the Mainland and here, could not be linked as part of the Trans-Canada Highway network across our country? ToiJ'hich Premier ~1oores has been saying, Premier Peckford has been saying, 'It should be today.

We should not have to pay any extra fees for crossing a Trans-Canada Highway network to go to ll.lberta or Ontario or Quebec or somewhere else in the great Canada \-le have. ' And we are. We are forced to pay a rate for crossing the Gulf because we happen to be an island. Why should we be penalized because we happen to live on an island as part of the great Confederation we have? ~ 1hy should we?

So when we fought that policy and put forward that position,we had no support from the Opposition because there colleagues in Ottawa would not listen to them and they did not have the courage of their convictions to stand up and say to Ottawa, 'You are wrong in your polic y position.' So they could not stand up and riqht their own colleagues, stand on the courage of their own convictions. !'Tow the han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. ~Teary) stands up and says, 'The Newfoundland Government has now got to pay for all costs, do not increase the fares, do not have any user-pav system, pay for it all out of your own money.' And all we are getting from Ottawa is a total of $3 million.

And, by the way, Mr. Speaker, the ferry services throughout the Island - HR. SP EAKER (Ay lward) : elapsed. MR. MORGAN: Order, please! Order, please! The han. the member's time has By leave, Mr. Speaker? 2271

April 10 1 1984 M...~ . SPEAKF.R (Aylt-T ard ) hav e lea ve ? SOME HON. f1EMBE RS : MR . SPE f\_T(E._~ : lffi.. TULK: MR . SPF.:.!I..KER: rm . HO DD E~ : Tape NO . 847 Does the hon . the mini ste r No . Leave is not gr an ted . Mr . Speaker. MJ - 3 The hon. the member for Fog .o. You wi ll get anoL~er ten minute s afterwards • You will get your chance. t>ffi. . TULK: Mr . Speaker 1 this is not the enn of the debate. The minister can stay and get back in for another ten minutes, if he wants to make some sense, if he wants. to say something that is sensible in this House,. But what he has just put through 2272

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 848 NM - 1 MR. TULK: his mouth is nothing. He used the word, and I let him use it because I want to use it back at him, the word "hypocrisy". What he has just said is the worst political guffaw that ever you heard in your life. MR. NEARY: And it is not true. MR. TULK: And it is not true. It is absolutely not true. What happened to the ferry services in this Province? How come they are not being run by the federal government today? The minister knows exactly why they are not being run. MR. HODDER: He made a financial deal. MR.

TULK: Because he, when he was Minister of Transportation - I remember it qu~te well although I was not in this House, but I remember it quite well - he asked the federal minister to take over the ferry service in ~ewfoundland for a certain price. MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Fisheries. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. MR. MORGAN: On a point of or~er. Now, first of all, han. gentlemen in this House are referred to by the district they represent, not by he or you or that, or something else, number one.

Number two, I want to correct the hon. gentleman that I did not, and it is well known in this Province, that I was the minister who refused to sign this ferry service agreement with Ottawa. I refused to sign a sixty/forty deal on the Trans-Canada Highway, and moved from Transportation to a different portfolio in the Moores' Government. I refused to sign these agreements. They ·were wrong, they were forced on us, they were bad deals and I would not sign them, Mr. Speaker. 2273

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 848 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I submit to Your Honour that that is not a point of order. What the hon. gentleman is doing is saying that the present Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is not as good as he was MR. MORGAN: No, he did not sign it either, MR. TULK: Well, how come we got it? MR. NEARY: - that the present Minister of Transportation did things that the hon. gentleman would not do on behalf of the administration. So, Mr.

Speaker, I know the hon. gentleman is hurting 1because when I get up I have a few things to say in rebuttal to what the hon. gentleman said. I would submit that instead of getting into this debate that he knows nothing about, the hon. gentleman should go out and try to straighten out the salmon fishery. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I in no way cast any reflections on my colleague. He is doing an excellent job. Is our colleague, the Hinister of Transportation, doing an excellent job - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: - an exce-llent job in his port folio? But the fact is back in 1977, 1977 was the year that the federal government forced on the administration in this Province, on the people of this Province, forced on us responsibility for all the ferry services. And at that 2274

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 848 NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: time this minister refused to sign the bad deal put forward by Ottawa and we had no support from the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER (Ay lward) : Order, please! To that point of order,I rule that there _ is no point of order, merely a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the minister can stand and deny and try to weasle out. He has now put his foot into it again by saying that there was a bad deal.

And he did go and ask to have the provincial ferry services transferred to the Province, that is on the record, but he is now standing and saying it was a bad deal. They are only getting $3 million for it or something, for the deal. It is a bad deal. He refused to sign it. Well,who sioned it? MR. MORGAN: Get your facts straight! We are getting $2 million. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: $2 million? Well, it is a worse deal. You were a member of the administration that adopted it. MR. TULK: It is a worse deal. Who signed it? Who signed it over there? If it is a bad deal 1who signed it?

If it is a bad deal will the minister tell us who signed it? MR. DINN: MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: Silence in the Opposition! You will get your ten minutes. Order, please! Well 1tell us who signed it. Was it somebody on this side signed that agreement or was it that minister or that minister? 2275

April 10, 1984 Ta pe 849 EC ~ 1 MR. TULK: The truth is that the provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) today, who was then the provincial Minister of Transportation, has done as he has done so often, to make himself look good, to make himself look like he is grabbing something for Newfoundland or getting something for Newfoundland, put his foot into a place where he really did not have the ability to handle it; the same thing as he did yesterday with that salmon management plan. So he sold out the provincial ferry service - MR. HODDER: For dollars. MR.

TULK: - for dollars, for dollars that really could not do the job. The present Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) knows the dollars were not there to do the job, and it cost this Province a considerable amount. Now, Mr. Speaker, he comes to the point that the ferry services in this Province is a philosophy of that government over there, that it should be part of the Trans-Canada Highway, that it should be free, it should be the same as nor~al. MR. MORGAN: User-pay ~olicy, t~e Liberal Party policy. MR. HODDER: I know it is user-pay up in Labrador 1 I am sure !

One of the most highly subsidized runs in the world. MR. NEARY: Your user·-r::>aY ~olicy is to charter an airJ?lane for the :~inister of Transportation. MR. TULK: He has just said that he believes that it is a policy of his government that ferry services should be free in this Province. He believes that. That is what he just said. It is a policy of the government, a policy of the Premier. 2276

. ,. April 10, 1984 Tape 849 EC - 2 H_-q_ HODDE:r.t: ·:<-:e C.oes not kno"' ~-!ha.t !1e is talkinrr about, t'lhat :1e is involved in. MR. TULK: Nell, you are the government. We are not the government. It is our policy, it has been for years, that you should not have to pay on a ferry to cross from Fogo Island, to cross from St. Frendan's, to cross from Long Island. MR. MORGAN: t'!It. TUL .~\:: ··IT'.. ~10RGAN : How about across the Gulf? Not at all, I aaree totally. It should ~e 9art - \o7hy did you not agree '#i th us :':our years aero, six years 'l<:)'O? ~'lR. HODDE::-!.: ~'ie did. ~-fr,.

TUL:~: T understand that my colleagues did. I was not here at the time, but I understand that they did. MR. MORGAN: No, you did not. MR. HODDER: Oh, yes, tve did. MR. TULK: Let us bring him back to his jurisdiction. The ferry services are your responsibility under your _r 'iniste::- of Trans:ortation (r-tr. Da~.·Je) and I an tl1ankful, as t·Jell, that that minister is not the same minister as before.

But it is your responsibility, so if it is your policy, why do you not implement the policy? vvhy do you not next week-instead of charging the people of Fogo Island in five years double for truckage, double for getting a truck across to Fogo Island, in spite of the fact that you have a shorter run -why do you not nm-1 make it a measure that you will push, that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) will push, along with the Minister of _ Transportation and Cabinet that all ferry services in this Province will be free, if it is your policy? He said it was his policy, so why not push it? Now, Mr.

Speaker, as I said, the Minister of Fisheries, who was the Minister of 2277

April 10, 1984 Tape 849 EC - 3 MR. TULK: Transportation, should stay out of Transportation . Because I presently have - I do not know whether I have it here or not, but I can get it for the minister and certainly can table it in this House ­ ! have a telegram in my possession from the Minister of Fisheries (~~ . Morgan) which states quite clearly that before the Bonavista North Loop Road was paved, he was going to pave a branch road to Ladle Cove and Aspen Cove. I have that telegram. Well, I still have to drive over that un paved road 2278

April 10, 1984 Tape 850 PK - 1 MR. TULK: sothe Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) would be very wise to leave the ~~inistry of Transportation ~o the member for St. George's (Mr. Dawe). He would be very wise to do that, because when he stands in this House and talks about promises made and promises kept 1 then he should realize that,being the type of minister he has been 1that he is threading on very thin ice indeed. Now he is gone.

The Fogo Island ferry rates that are presently coming into effect, i~ will cost in five years­ and the minister will not deny this -it will cost them in five years double the amount to take a truck, to take goods and services back and forth across that run than it is costing now. I think it goes from something like $20 to $40 for a truck. Now what does that mean for the people of Fogo Island? They are paying , as the member for Trinity North (Mr.

Brett) would know, the highest rate for food, for clothing that you will find anywhere in this Province with the exception of Labrador­ Labrador is the highest, Fogo Island is probably the second highest , The cost of lving is higher on Fogo Island than it is anywhere else in Newfoundland with the exception of Labrador, absolutely! And it is because of their transportation system primarily, because you have to store goods and so on.

And here we have a government and the Minister of Fisheries says - he announces policy on behalf of the government the time - he says it is their policy that they will free up the ferry services in Newfoundland and make them free to people. And yet out of the other side of their mouth, and you are talking out of both sides of your mouth, out of the other side of their mouth they are doubling the ferry rates again. Mr. Speaker, as usual this government says one thing and does another. 2279

April 10, 1984 Tape 850 PK - 2 MR. TULK: Now I would like for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) to reply because I would certainly put a great deal more credence in what he says about the policy of the government with regards to ferry services than I do the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). MR. SPEAKER (A ylward) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DAWE: Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. The hon. Minister for Transportation. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker , just a few words to reply and perhaps put this whole thing as it relates to the Provinc~'s acceptance or agreement. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: A quorum call. Forty-four members and not enough to listen to him. MR. DAWE: me. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: They are all inside listening to No one wants to listen to you, boy! Call in the members. Is it agreed to continue? Agreed. Agreed. The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, I checked back through most of the records when I took over this particular portfolio. There were a number of questions outstanding.

Perha~s the largest one,and the one with the largest policy implications as well as financial implications,was that addressing the intraprovincial ferry system in the Province. And we had a study done 1 as members on both sides of the House are aware. 2280

April 10,1984 Tape No. 851 ah-1 MR. DAWE: But I want to go back to the comments made by my colleague,the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) and the comments made by the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) as it relates to what exactly happened with regard to the responsibility for the provision of that service transferring from the federal government to the provincial government. Mr.

Speaker, in this search that I did I found out very clearly,and it was very obvious in the correspondence and in conversation I had with people in the federal administration subsequently and with people in our own Transportation Department,that a decision was made about five years earlier that would have been in about 1972-73- five years before the Province took over the system that in fact the federal government were going to get out of providing an intraprovincial ferry system to the islands around this Province.

They said, no question about it, in conversations at officials'level, in conversation at the political level, 'He are getting out of it.

Now, Province of Newfoundland and Labrador 1 if the people on the islands are going to receive acceptable service,then you are going to have to provide it because we are getting out.' And subsequent Ministers of Transportation in this government thought that during the process of fighting that concept from the federal government, ~vhich was going to abdicate its responsibility as it relates to providing a coastal service specifically to the islands where there are communities still functioning-unlike what would have been the case , I suppose, if their provincial colleagues had been allowed to continue on and there would not have been anyone on the islands so we would not have had this problem; but we do have that problem, we do have 2281

April 10,1984 Tape No. 851 ah-2 MR.DAWE: people still living in places around this Province where they wish to live 1and some of those people live on islands- so we argued with that position, argued violently with that position of the federal government, that they were getting out of providing that intraprovincial ferry system. The argument got down, Mr.

Speaker, and the dialogue got down to the fact that this Province was given an ultimatum as it relates to the provision of an intraprovincial ferry system. 1You either take our deal'-which was to contribute to the subsidy for the provision of service to selected islands-'you either agree to that for a five year period or there will be no service provided. 1 Mr.

Speaker, this Province found itself in a position, ·because of the people on the islands, because a recognition that the people on the islands deserved a transportation link, the Province was forced into agreeing with the federal government to take over the intraprovincial ferry system. It had no choice. The people being served would not have had a service, Mr. Speaker, if the federal government, if the Department of Transport had gotten their way. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.DAWE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, we not only took over the existing intraprovincial ferry system with the operations that were in place, but we also increased that operation. We have increased the frequency of trips to islands where there was an existing operation and we have added new operations to that service. Now, Mr. Speaker, does the federal government contribute to the subsidies, to the new 2282

April 10,1984 Tape No. 851 ah-3 MR.DA~vE: operations, to the operation i.n Gaultois, to the expanded operation to Ramea, to the expanded operation on Bell Island, to the expanded and increased frequency on Fogo Island? Does it contribute to any of the massive expansions that this government has made to the intraprovi.ncial ferry system? None, Mr. Speaker, none. It contributes on a formula that \<Tas based on the existing operations back in 1978.

So we have added numerous service increas.es, nevv service and service increases to the intraprovincial ferry system -vtithout an added assistance in that s~bsidy from the federal government. Mr. Speaker, we have looked at a number of improvements a.nd a number of inequities in the ferry system. We have addressed them all. The standarization of a fare increase in some cases but a decrease in others, but a 2283

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 852 SD - 1 MR. DAWE: standardization of the fares charged on intraprovincial ferries in this Province took about a year and a half to two years to formulate, because we took into consideration all the needs and aspirations of the people on the islands. r·re ha ve established, Mr. Speaker, administratively as it relates to the ferry systems a Director of Ferry Operations, a marine mechanical engineer who takes care of the refitting and various mechanical requirements of the ferries in our system.

We have hired people: in the case of Fogo Island we have an individual who is responsible for the ferry operations. He is responsible for the day-to-day scheduling and the day-to-day operations of that service, a much improved communication network, a very much improved frequency of service in that particular area,and the change in the fares in no way reflect a user-pay concept. It in no way reflects that the people serviced by these ferries are in some way paying an exorbitant fee for deciding in their own minds that they wish to live on an island. We, Mr.

Speaker, as a government, as · a department are providing an excellent service and it will improve over time. In order to be fair 1we phased in what is a fair fare increase. We have phased that in over a five year period. We have indicated to the people serviced by these vessels that we will be doing that over a five year period. There have been so many meeting on Bell Island between me as minister, the member representing the area, the Minister of Communications CMr.

Doyle) _, officials- from my department in dealing w±th the Commuters• · Committee, in conversation with the town council, in conversation with various other interest groups , with individuals who have come to my office 1 with _ me visiting the Island 1 and, Mr, Speaker, I have some paternal connections with Bell Island 1 so I have a personal interest in seeing that the residents of Bell 2284

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 852 SD - 2 MR. DAWE: Island have their needs satisfied historically, so, Mr. Speaker, we have done everything in our power. What kind of fare increases are we talking about? What kind of exorbitant increases are we talking about? Mr . Speaker, the St. Brendan's-Burnside ferry service, in the constituency of our newest member in the House of Assembly, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Greening) 1 well, the present adult fare one way is $3.00 1or it was prior to April 1. Mr. Speaker, what will that increase to? What exorbitant increase has the Province imposed as of April 1 on the people of St.

Brendan's as it relates to their ferry service? Well, Mr. Speaker, they will go up from $3.00 to $3.10. AN HON. ME! •'!BE~: Ho '" I!IUCh? MR. DAWE: Ten cents, One tenth of a dollar, Ten cents. MR. SPEAKER (_Aylward)__: Order, . please! The hon. member•s time has elapsed. MR. DAWE: Oh 1 it is a shame, Mr. Speaker, but I will get back to it again. MR. SPEAKER: The hon, Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, let me pick up on something that th .e hon. gentleman said. ,Just to show you how weak this administration are~ the hon. gentleman is arguing that the federal government threatened to get out of the intraprovincial ferry service in this Province. The previous minister said that he resisted it and he told them to go jump in the lake, Now-. Mr.

Speaker, obviously the present minister caved in and allowed himself to be bluffed and bullied by the federal government by being told that they would withdraw · these . ferries if the hon. gentleman did not agree to let Ottawa buy · its · way out of the intraprovincial ferry service. Mr. Speaker, the hon .. gentleman surel y· does not expect us· to buy that argument. Mr. Speaker, back in the 2285

April 10 ., 1984 Tape No. 852 MR. NEARY: '50s 1 just to show you the difference in Liberal policy, Liberal philosophy and the present Tory philosophy 1 or 2286 SD - 3

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 853 NM - l MR. NEARY: the philosophy of the Tory Party of this Province, back in the 1950s, when the hon. Mr. Pickersgill was Minister of Transport, the Liberal Administration in this Province not only got the federal government to take over the intra­ provincial ferry service, but got the federal government to subsidize the ferry services in this Province, the one to Bell Island, the one to Fogo Island and various other ferry services, got - MR. PATTERSON: That was Mr. Deifenbaker. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, it was Mr. Pickersgill in the Government of Canada. Now, Mr.

Speaker, is that all we managed to get Ottawa to do? No, Mr. Speaker, we got Ottawa to build a ferry for Bell Island in 1957. MR. CARTER: MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: This is not relevant. Where did he build them? They built her, Mr. Speaker, in Canada. Marystown was not even there then. MR. TOBIN: That was before Diefenbaker's time. MR. NEARY: time. MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: trip today or something? MR. TOBIN: Yes, it was before Mr. Diefenbaker's Diefenbaker built the shipyard. Built what shipyard? In Marystown. Is the hon. gentleman on a bad It is true. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the Liberal administration of the day got the federal government to build The John Guy, and turn it over to the Province for $1. That is the difference in the Liberal approach and the Tory approach. 2287

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 853 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: but the minister caved in, allowed himself to be stampedec into accepting a deal that he now apologizes for. He said, "We had no choice, there would have been no ferry service." That is not true. Mr. Speaker, how often did the Government of Canada threaten the Liberal administration? How often did they try to buy their way out of the ferry service in this Province? We would not allow them to do it. We stood firm. We had the courage to stand up to them, and we told them to go take a jump. And we would not allow them to do it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, now that the Province has taken over the ferry service, they have bought out or are in the process of buying out the present operators in this Province. They have made a deal with the Newfoundland Transportation Company, without calling public tenders, contrary to the Public Tendering Act, and have extended their contract for five years without calling public tenders. They have increased the rates to the people of Bell Island that will double over a five year period without going to the Public Utilities Board to hold hearings and to allow the people to protest these increases. Mr .. Speaker.

So that is what we are seeing now, Mr. Speaker, as far as Bell Island is concerned. And that administration used to be so critical! I remember they used to get up and harrangue and harass the previous Liberal administration about ''That are you going to do for Bell Island? They have been over there fourteen years and the only thing they have done for Bell Island is to increase 2288

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 853 NM- 3 MR. NEARY : the ferry rates. MR. CARTER : What happened to the contract that was on Smallwood's desk? MR. NEARY: I reme~e~ once when I was running on Bell Island, Mr. Speaker- I won three elections after that,in case the hen . gentleman is interested -but I remember once I was running against a Tory over there who had run a sweepstake, and the sweepstake was suppose d to be a motor car , the prize was a motor car, and the sweep was never drawn . MR . OTTENREIMER: MR. NEARY: Did he have a lottery licence? No, it was before the lottery licence.

But the ticket was never drawn and that particular gentleman later ran for the Tory Party against me twice on Bell Island. 2289

~- -... -.-.-. -· April 10, 1984 Tape No. 854 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: I remember he put a sign up in his window, 'Where is the contract?' And I went and produced the contract and I put it up in my headquarters window,and all the docQ~entation in connection with it. Then I put a little sign underneath it, '~Tow where is the prize, where is the car?' And he took the sign down the next day, Mr. Speaker. I could say the same thing to the han. gentleman if he wants to get into that kind of a mug's game. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the people of Bell Island are now going to have to suffer because of an arbitrary decision made on the eighth floor of Confederation Building, the camuters are ·going to have to pay double, five years from now they w·ill be paying double what they are paying now, the cost of living will go up on Bell Island 1 and they are being completely ignored by the minister. The minister has refused to deal j,n good faith with the people of Bell Island. A.nd we saw what happened the other day when the member for Harbour Main - Bell Isalnd (l.l:r.

Doyle) tried to defend and justify the actions of his colleagues. \'Ihat d±d the peOJ?le of Bell Island say to the member? They told the member that he was letting them down, that he should be fighting for them instead of agreeing with the minister, that he did not know what he was talking about, that he was a weakling, that he had jellv knees, that he would not stand up for their rights, Now they are over there, 11r. Speaker, night and day they are calling me and they are calling the Opposition to try to get some help to fight against the increase in the rates and to try to get the minister to deal with them.

The minister has refused to deal with them in good faith. MR. TOBIN: Hew corre you area not still representing t})em? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, you knm• that rudeness cannot be tolerated in this House,especiall" if you are not 2290

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 854 MJ - 2 ~L~. N~~~RY : in your own seat. I would ask the protection of the Chair, ;tr. Speaker . ~low, H.r. Speaker, this policy is going to be devastating to the pec9le t·lho live in cow.munities that are ser viced by ferries. Again I ~ave to co~e back to t·lha t I said in my earlier remarks and it is thi.s, that I believe the first mention in ~Jet· Tfoundland a~d Labrador that ferry services should be an extention of our highway system and the Gulf ferry should be an extension of the ~rans ­ Canada ~ .ighway, the first r.:ention of it ~.,as 1!1ade by Liberals in this Province.

I think ! was the first one to Mention it and it is a great reforM that 19lease God one of L~ese days, t.,e will have the privilege and honour of irnple!:lenti.na . Ferry services, ~x . Speaker, should not be a 9rivilegP. but a right for people \tlho live on these islands and in these remote communities. ~fuere were you when all those oeople got turned off Long Island i~ Placentia Bay and Merasheen and all of t~ose? ~~R . NEl!RY : t1r . Speaker, I will tell '!OU 'tthere I Nas .

I wa .s i::~ the same nlace the merr.ber for 9a!' of Islands (Mr. :07ood.rm.,) •·1as when he moved the whole population off an island in !1eNfoundland and sent the bill in to t.!1e Newfoundland Govern.."lent . He bought a truck and a bulldozer and a couple of other ~ieces of equipment and moved the whole population 2291

April 10, 1984 Tape 855 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: without permission, without taking a vote, without anything else, move them off the islandand sent the bill in to Mr. Smallwood. Now that is where I was, MR. DAWE: Did you pay it? MR. NEARY: Yes, unfortunately we paid it. We paid it. MR. DAWE: Of course you paid it. It was part of your policy an :j you had to pay it. MR. NEARY: How could you turn down the parish priest, Mr. Speaker? How could you turn him down? He had the powers of persuasion. AN HON. MEMBER: Let the parish pay it. MR.

NEARY: He had such a power over the politicians , who could you refuse him, how could you turn him down, Mr. Speaker? We helped the hon. gentleman in more ways than that too. Every election the han. gentleman was helped considerably in one form or another. But we do not hold that against the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker. I do not want to divulge any Cabinet secrets We used to sit around the table and say, 'Look, I want to read this letter, Just listen to this, This poor old parish priest-destitute.' And we would always come up with a few dollars. MR. PATTERSON: here to defend himself. MR. NEARY: to defend himself.

Do not go too far now 1 he is not No, that is right. He is not here But anyway, Mr. Speaker, in case the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) wants the answer,that is where I was I was in the same place as his colleague 1 now the member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey). MR. SPEAKER (Russell): 2292 Order, please: The han. member's time has expired. The hon. Minister of Transportation.

April 10, 1984 Tape 855 PK - 2 MR. DAWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to go over a couple of points that perhaps need clarification. The Minister of Communication, the member for Harbour Main-Bell Island (Mr. Doyle), there are members on this side of the House and MHAs who have argued and effectively argued very well for their constituency 1 but I do not know of any other member who has been more successful or who has argued better in this particular case as it relates to the provision of an adequate ferry system for the people of Bell Island than the member representing that particular constituency.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: And, Mr. Speaker, just to get it on record, perhaps it would be interesting to identify some of the improvements that have been made in that particular service since the member now representing the area was first elected. In l978-1979 1and perhaps we should go back further than that, back in the early 1970s, mid- 1970s, a boat was provided, The Katherine as a standby vessel in case anything happened to the vessel that was operating on the service,The John Guy . It was a standby vessel.

It was paid for through an arrangement, a contractual arrangement between the federal government and the company operating the service. It was subsidized. It was paid for. The principal, the interest, the insurance, the caretaker aspects of it were all paid for through taxpayers dollars, but this vessel was stationed 1 I believe 1 at one of the docks in St. John's and it was used when The John Guy went on refit, it was used in case The John Guy had mechanical difficulties and the boat had to be used. She was a standby and that was it. The Province in 1974, the Province, Mr.

Speaker, not the federal government, but the Province worked 2293

·. April 10,1984 -Tape 855 PI< - 3 MR. DAWE: out an arrangement with the company that operated-that particular vessel and the service to Bell Island to provide a second boat service, I think, that was somewhat in the neighbourhood of about $80,000 back in 1974,and it continued to do so until 1978-1979, that amount for the second vessel, for The Katherine 1the Province paid for completely with some $91,000. When my colleague, the Minister of Communications (Mr. Doyle) was elected for that particular district 1in 1978-1979 alone, that subsidy, notthe increase in the number of trips of that vessel,the subsidy itself increased to $160,000. Any increase in fare, Mr. Speaker? Not one. 2294

April 10, 1984 Tape 856 EC - l MR. DAWE: In 1980 - l981 1 that subsidy increased to $239,000 with increased frequency. Was there any increase in fares, ~x. Speaker? None. In 1981 - 1982 it went up to $372,000 subsidy for that second vessel. Again, no increase. In 1982 - 1983, $333,000; in 1983 - 1984, $353,000. Up to that point in time, Mr. Speaker, up to March 31, 1984, the subsidy increased from 1978 - 1979, from $91,000 to $353,000 without a fare increase. But that was not the really important thing.

The really important thing was that the frequency, the use of a second vessel on that service, increased from some five weeks back in 1978 - 1979 to five months - five months, an extra four months, less a week .-of increased service. ~fuen I was talking to the people of Bell Island, talking to their member, talking to the delegations, the individuals, number one on their list was the increase, a two boat service, from what it was operating at to hopefully a twelve-month two boat service.

That was the prime objective of commuter committees, of councils representing the area, of individuals in the area, the frequency of a two boat service for as long in the year as could be provided. They realized in conversation that there would have to be adjustments. I mean, people are not so naive as to think that there would not have to be adjustments somewhere down the road, some fare increases that would have to try to account for it. So now, Mr.

Speaker, that increased from not only five weeks, but as of April l a two boat system will be in place for some nine months of the year, an additional subsidy on a second vessel of some $559,000. Mr. Speaker, $559,000 will be the 2295

..: April 10, 1984 Tape 856 EC - 2 MR. DAWE: subsidy for a second vessel; increase that vessel from that five month period last season to nine months this year. And, Nr. Speaker, what will be the generated revenue, the revenue that will come in from the increase in the fares? Will it be $559,000 to take care of the extra subsidy? Sm.1E HON. I-1EHBERS: No. MR. DAWE: Will it take care of the $2 million overall subsidy that is paid for the use of that vessel? No, Mr. Speaker. It will amount to some­ where in the vicinity of $80,000, Mr.

Speaker, compared to the extra $559,000 that it will cost to provide that two boat service for five months. Mr. Speaker, the fare increases or the fare structure was designed to equalize the fares in all the systems in the Province and it has done just that and will do that over the five-year period. Some will go down, others have gone up, most of them very, very little. But w~at is important, Mr. Speaker, in this debate, I think, is the fact that the Minister of Communications, the member for Harbour tl!ain - Bell Island (Mr.

Doyle} 1 ·sanehow it has been suggested by rrerrbers of the Opposition that he has not been voicing the concerns of the residents, and I think the facts speak just the opposite of that. He has been one of the more successful MHAs in representing the wishes of his constituents and seeing that action has been taken on some of their concerns. And this is an example, a prime example, of what a good MHA can do when he puts his mind to it, 2296

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 8 5'1 SD - 1 MR. DAWE : wh.en he puts his mind to it, when he brings forward the arguments of his constituents and puts them into government policy. And this has been a prime example of that being done. Mr. Speaker, I think the kind of contribution and the kind of awareness that this government has made1through representation from that particular individual, is proof that we are concerned about the life style and the quality of the social needs of the people on Bell Island, the people on St.

Brendan •·s and the people on Fogo Island and other islands serviced by our intraprovincial ferry system. And I am very proud of what has been accomplished, Mr. Speaker, and I think that the people on th.e. islands, by and large-there is always a dis·senting voice, no one likes to see an increase in taxes, no one likes to see an increase in park fees, in licence fees, in any other kind of fees that are charged from time to time ,but they are a fact of life they are a reality that we have to face. What we are doing here, Mr.

Speaker, is· s·tabili zing the fares throughout the system, we are certainly not putting an undue burden on th.e people of Bell Is-land or anywhere else in this system. We have recognized the COI!1IllUter as·pect 1, the people get 50 per cent of the rate; we have recognized s•ome concerns of the people on fixed income1like senior citizens,and senior citizens· are getting 50 per cent of the regular charged rate. We are doing all of these things, Mr, Speaker, because this government has a sensi:tivity to the needs and the aspirations of people in all parts· of Newfoundland, the -.. -. islands not withstanding.

The suggestion the member for LaPoile (}lr. Neary}_ made that the Minister of Fisheri.es· (}lr. Morgan)_, who was then Minister of Transpora tion, would not sign a particular agreement but that I subsequently did, just to set the record straight ,r was not in the portfolio when the agreei!}ent was finally ratified. But I do 2297

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 857 SD - 2 MR. DAWE: know that it would not have made any difference at the time who was in the portfolio because, Mr. Speaker, I have to say again ,and all the information that we have available to us so indicates, that this Province had no choice. The people on the islands would have had no service had not the government agreed to go along with the blackmail tactics that were imposed by the federal government at the time. MR. SPEAKER {_Russell): Order, please~ The han. member's time has expired. The han. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a fe~r words.

First of all I want to note that I am "rearing my flower today. :m. OTTENHED1ER: Flm.;er power~ ~m. CALLAN : On Friday past all ladies and gentlerren opposite wore theirs. ~1R. STET.-7ART: You are behind the times MR. CALLAN: Actually,this one that I have I got it from somebody on the other side, who it was I am not sure. I think it was the member for St. John' ·s· North (.Mr. Carter)_ who gave me this one. But anyway on Friday past 1 of course, it was the second anniversary of the '82 election results, April 6.

Today is April 10 and it is the third anniversary of the wonderful victory that we- and I say we - · shared in ithe district of Bellevue in the Bellevue by-election of April 10, 1981. I am very proud today, Mr. Speaker, to be wearing my flower power 1 as the Minister of Justice (~r. Ottenheimer)_ refers to it - SOME HON ". MEMBERS': Hear, hear. ' ' MR. CALLAN: - and as they did, of course, on Friday, Mr. Speaker, a couple of topics came up here this afternoon and I wanted to h.ave a few words on them. The Minister of Transportation (~r.

Dawe} has left his seat,but I am sure he is nat so far away he cannot hear 2298

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 857 so - 3 MR . CALLAN: what I am saying . I would like to talk about the calcium chloride, ~1r. Speaker. MR. DAWE: I hear you. MR. CALLAN: He heard me. It came up at the estimates and the member for Tt•lillingate CM.rs . Reid) mentioned, or asked at the Estimates Committee, was it not possible to app ly this calciumchloride . I think all hen . members know what it is 1 especially if you have a district, of course, where there are dirt roads .

You know that calcium chloride is laid during the Summer months to keep down the dust, dust control used by t.he Department of Transportation during the Summer months. And the member for Twillingate wondered and asked the minister at the Estimates Committee whether or not it was possible to get calcium chloride spread in between communities. And the minister came back and said, 'No, the stuff is costly and all we can afford to do is through the settlements; tvhere there are people 1 of course 1 who hang clothes on the line and who have their windows opened during the Summer and that sort of thing.

So the idea was to keep the dust down in the communities. But 2299

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 858 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: the minister knows,I think, Mr. Speaker, the minister knows as well as I do that there are some areas which are exceptions for whatever reason. Now the minister,as I know 1 is listening, I just got off the phone not too long ago, Mr. Speaker, talking to a gentleman who travels the stretch of road between the town of Chance Cove in my district , and the Bellevue Beach Park intersection. That area is unpaved. There is another way to get from Chance Cove to the Trans-Canada. There is another route.

You can go the Gull Pond route which takes you to the Trans-Canada,but of course it takes you down the Trans-Canada,and it was paved for the benefit of people who lived in Chance Cove and who were working at the Come By Chance refinery. That is why that was paved and,of course, the other ' stretch was left unpaved. Mr. Speaker, in a letter that I wrote recently to one of the minister's officials,! said, "I am prompted to write at this time regarding the calcium chloride that is used to treat dirt roads around the Province each Summer. 1' And I referred to that

section of dirt road, and I said, "Although the road leading from Chance Cove to the TCH at Gull Pond is paved,all travellers use the shorter route to Bellevue,"and 1of course 1to the Fair Haven Road intersection. They use the shorter route when travelling for example to Whitbourne to go to the pharamacist or whatever, to the bank, or if they are on their way to St. John's, or any point East they use the shorter route. I did not mention it in my letter, Mr. Speaker, but in addition to all of these travellers,there are millions of pounds of fish trucked over 2300

April 10, 198 4 Tape No. 858 NM - 2 MR. CALLAN: that stretch of road during the Summer from the fish plant, Smith's Seafoods in Chance Cove, and of course there are millions of pounds of fish trucked over that stretch of road. Well 1 the answer came back from the minister's official, and the minister's official says, acknowledging my letter and so on, "This

section of road from Bellevue Beach Park to the Town of Chance Cove is not a built up area, that is,an area where permanent residents live and of course is not eligible for the dust control programme." So says the minister's official. Mr. Speaker, what I am asking now, I am asking the minister, would the minister take a second look at this himself? Because I know and he knows that there are sections of dirt road 1 not only in Bellevue by elsewhere,where there are cabins,for example, not permanent residents but cabin owners, who have their sections of road done with calcium chloride.

So I ask the minister to take a second look at that. I was going to write the minister a letter but now that the minister is within hearing distance I want him to take another look at that, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I also wanted to ask the minister a couple of questions regarding that

section of road between Gander and Glenwood. In a recent newspaper

article we were told that apparently $1 million worth of pavement was laid last year, last Fall, and it is all gone to wack, or awry or whatever, and the minister tells us that it is going to have to be redone. And the minister accepts responsibility,by the way. He says in the newspaper article, or I assume that is what he is saying, that it is the department's fault. What happened out there is a fair question, Mr. Speaker. What happened? 2301

April 10, 1984 Ta pe No. 858 NM - 3 MR . CALLAN : Did not the Departm ent of Transportation have qualified inspectors there who were qualified to test the mixture of asphalt that was being laid there, to make sure that it had the proper ingredients so that it would not break up within a four or five month period? Now that is another question that I would like for the minister to address, Mr. Speaker, when he comes back int .o the Legislature. But, Mr. Speaker, we a·lso heard of resettlement. It was mentioned once or twice here this afternoon.and 1 of course,who put 2302

April 10,1984 Tape No. 859 ah-1 MR. CALLAN: and , of course, who put the people off the islands and so on.I do not know if han. members have read today's Evening Telegram yet but there is a lovely letter to the Editor on page 6 and it is titled, 'A claim for foolish money.' And this man, who gives his address as sw.ift Current, of course is not from Swift Current at all. I mention the letter, Mr. Speaker, because he says in his letter, he is talking about the welfare programme, 'A claim for foolish money,' and he calls the Premier everything in the world.

But anyway he says in paragraph 4, 'I hear that Wilson Callan, MHA, came out from wherever he was hiding these last few years or so to demand that the provincial government prevent the scrapping of the Come By Chance refinery by taking it over.' And, of course, he says, 'stupid that I am,' and he uses that phrase about a dozen times throughout, 'stupid that I am,' I cannot understand this and so on. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, this gentleman is not from Swift Current, even though that is where he picks up his mail.

The man's name is Randy Lieb, and he lives out on Woody Island, the only inhabitant of Woody Island that was resettled many years ago,and the only man who wants to be on Woody Island, Mr. Speaker. MR.WARREN: Is he a Newfoundlander? MR. CALLAN: Where is this gentleman from? This gentleman is from Germany .and he is f~om Woody Island. He picks up his main at Swift Current. But anybody in St. John's or anywhere else reading this article, of course, would think that here is a man who lives in Swift Current year-round and, you know, has good arguments and so on. But he has no 2303

April 10,1984 Tape No. 859 ah-2 MR.CALLAN: good arguments against me, Mr. Speaker, I can guarantee you that,because all the gentleman has to do when he comes off Woody Island is ask anybody in Swift Current where I have been hiding for the last two years - or in Garden Cove or any of the area. I visited Woody Island once or twice, not to see this gentleman but to go out and spend the night in a cabin with a former resident of Woody Island who now lives very happily and contentedly in Swift Current.

And, of course, there are hundreds of others who live in Arnold's Cove 1and they are living just as happily and peacefully as my friends are from Swift Current, who did not move off the island because they were forced to but moved off the island - Goodbye Santa! Sm.1E HON. ~1EHBERS : Hear, hear! r.rn. CALLAN: -but moved off the island because they "'an tee. to move. rtr. Speaker, can you imagine the arguments that are used . - ·-- by the Hin.i.ster of Transportation (Mr .Dawe) in his estimates and so on about the ferries and the high cost. What would the member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) if he were in the Cabinet today, what would he be saying about providing public services to people on Merasheen and all of the other islands, Isle of Valen, Woody Island, Sound Island,and all of the other islands in Green Bay and, of course, in Bonavista Bay. MR.SPEAKER (Avlward): Order, please! MR.CALLAN: By leave, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member's time has elapsed. Does he have leave to continue. S01E HON .~m.lBERS: By leave. MR.SPEAKER: Leave is granted. 2304

April 10,1984 MR.CALLAN: SOME BON.MEMBERS: Tape No. 859 I wonder, Mr . Speaker - Oh, oh! ah-3 MR.SPEAKER (AylWard): Does the hon. member have leave to continue? MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAI<ER: leave. MR.CALLAN: Just a coup le of minutes, A couple of minutes,by I thank the han. gentleman and lady opposite , Mr . Speaker .

But I am wondering 1 as I was about to say, what would this government,which cannot afford to do a lot of things, this is the hue and cry that we get, we cannot afford to be doing these things, we cannot afford to pave this stretch of road , how would t!U_s government provide services to these islands , you know, especially under this prese .nt situation - what do we call it? depression or recession or whatever it is that we are suppose to be experiencing? And this gentleman from Woody Island 1 Randy Lieb, who is from Germany originally, is more to be pitied than blamed. And as I said,if he wants to write an

article and use my name in it ,then, of course, I say to him,and I say to anybody ,that I have not been hiding these last two years or so. Anybody t-7ho lives in StoTift current or lives anywhere besides out in the wilderness all alone in a stone house, anybody who has access to schools and churches 2305

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 860 MJ - l MR. CALLA..l\l: knows that I am visible in my visits to the schools in Swift Current and to the churches and the celebrations and all of the other things that I am called on to participate in as the member for the district of Bellevue. I think the members opposite for granting me those extra couple of minutes, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARP-EN: Z..1R. SPEAKER (Avlward) Mountains. MR. WARREN: ~..r. Speaker. The hon. the member for Torngat ~rr. Speaker, nobody on the other side wants to speak this evening? MR. NEARY: The life is gone out of them. r·:e have got the wind knocked out of them.

MR. WARREN: And here we are trying to ~in~ out some reasons why the government are spending much money and why they are showing so much lack of concern! In fact, !~r. Speaker, I an shocked beyond belief that the hon. new member from Terra Nova (Mr. Greening) 1 with one forty-fifth of the budget,has not gotten up and said anything vet. You know,we are anxiously waiting for the member to make his first speech. We are waiting for him to make his first sneech. The member for St. Barbe (!'1r. Osmond) has not spoken yet. Why does he not speak and protect the government that he is a part of? AN HON.

ME!'BER: How low can you get? HR. I'TARREN: No, Mr. Speaker, not ho<;oT low can you get. I am surprised that the han. the member from Baie Verte - Nhite Bay (Hr. Rideout) has not gotten uP, Mr. Speaker. MR. GREENING: MR. WARREN: Actions speak louder than words. I agree with the hon. member that actions do speak louder than words,and I a~ sure that when he does speak in the House he vTill have quite a bit to sa y and 2306

A.?ril 10, 1984 '!'a9e >.·1o. 860 ·~J - 2 ~iR. !·TAR?.EN: hooefully he will get one forty- fifth of the provincial budget for his district. ~ow, Mr. Speaker, some tine ago in this han. Pause I asked the !~ini'>ter of "'inance (Dr. Collins), seeing Ne were discussinc:r Fina!!ce 1 I a.sked the ~~inister of Finance if he '·muld consider placing labels on rum, beer, whiskey 1 on the CC"n :f:niners that contain alcoholic beverages , ~roull~ .he consider that? Now let us face it.

On a cigarette package, the Department of ~Tational Health and ··~elfar.e has a label stating that cigarette s~oking may be hazardous to your health. It does not say it is hazardous, it ra y be hazardous. So I am requesting that the !1inister o:£ Finance ,..Jill look at the same thing. No•...r even if the !~inister of Finance said, 'Well 1 ~ve will look into the matter. ne will look and see if it is possible.' 3ut the minister had the gall to say it would be a conflict of interest.

I got a letter it is too bad I do not have the letter in front of me now - I got a letter fro!!! a chap in Corner Brook ~vho had written the minister about five times in the past tr, ·ro or. three years, and vlho had vTritten to his own rn.ember and still he cannot get past first base ..,.ri th the ~·:inister of Finance and the reason vrh y he cannot get past first base is the Minister of Finance is saying it is conflict of interest.

Because if we put labels on liquor bottles and people pick up their bottle and the first thing the.:• see, 'Drinking Tiay be hazardous to your health', or, 'Do not have an y more than seven shots of this, it may kill you' , or something like that, maybe \¥e •-rill lose taxes. Now which is the greater, to lose taxes or to lose lives? Because one of the most serious Froblems 2307

~ ... April 10, 1984 Tape 861 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: in Newfoundland and Labrador toda~ is the consumption of alcohol. MR. NEARY: Right on! ~~. YOUNG: Not true. MR. WARREN: That is one of the most serious problems. I am surprised that the Minister of Public Works says it is not true, because if the Minister of Public Works would read some of the mail that goes across his desk, especially from the Chairman of the Alcohol and Drug Dependency Commission - MR. PATTERSON: across his table. SOME HON . ME11BERS : MR. NEARY: SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. WARREN: He sees some of the victims Hear, hear!

He sees them across ~s slab, Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, as the hen. the member for Placentia just said, the hen. the Minister of Public Works is more interested in what goes across his table than what goes in and out of the liquor store. Mr. Speaker, I think it is enough to be concerned about and if the minister would read the latest report from Ann Bell, who was appointed by this Province to chair the Alcohol and Drug Dependency Commission, that he would see the statistics that are there and know that government has to do something.

I went into one of the liquor outlets a few days ago and I was surprised to find that beside the cash register and the young lady serving there, there is a little slot with some propaganda about offshore oil. 2308

April 10, 1984 Tape 861 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: I do not know how much this is costing this government. In fact, maybe it could be good literature that is going out to the people, You knOV!, fine and dandyl But if they could put out this propaganda saying that we own the offsl::.ore oil, surely there could also be some literature there telling the people that alcohol may be dangerous to your health. MR. NEARY: Was Brian's picture up there too? MR. WARREN: No, his picture was not there this time but the document was done in blue and white. Mr.

Speaker, I represent a district which has, like many other districts throughout the Province, an alcohol problem. There is an alcohol problem, Mr. Speaker, in my district; there is a problem with alcohol in many other districts in the Province. And I believe that this government is obligated - MR. NEARY: Right on, Sir! MR. li'JARREN: - this government should be committed and this government must take the bull by the horns and try to do something, whether it has to be an educational process. or whether it is bringing back prohibition.

Maybe in many of the communities in this Province the answer would be prohibition, I do not knmv, M.r. Speaker, but I am sure that if this government just sits back and does nothing 1 then we are going to see in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador the lives of more and more people being cestroyed, their health being destroyed by the curse of alcohol. Now, I would not mind, Mr. Speaker, if we had to go back to the old days when you had to bring your little book into the liquor store and get stamped and come back again next month for another bottle. If we got Back to those days, it might be the answer. 2309

April 10,1984 Tape 862 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: It may be the answer. It may affect some of my colleagues,or some other of my many, many friends who have establishments throughout this Province,who may not be able to generate the revenue that they usually bring in. But I am sure that their establishments may be turned into other centres,such as detoxification centres of something like this. I am sure there is always going to be room for a person to go into another field of livelihood. Mr.

Speaker, I know my time has pretty Nell elapsed,but again I would beg this government on behalf of thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who need help, and there is only one way that they can get help is if this government would consider the serious affect that alcohol is having on the lives of individuals and families, the distress and the concern, Mr. speaker, that it spreads throughout this Province. And I believe that the minister definitely should come in and say, 1 Let us start at the beginning.

If ~nada Health and Welfare can put a label on the cigarette packages,let us make it mandatory that a similar label will be placed on liquor bottles and beer cans~ Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : West. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: The goat spoke. MR. TOBIN: Order, please! The han. member for Burin-Placentia Hear, hear! The goat spoke. Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. The Mobile goat.

After listening to the han. gentleman who just spoke here, I am sure that he spoke in a very sincere fashion as it relates to the problems that are associated with alcohol in this Province and I am sure within the world. However 1 I must say to the han. member that 2310

April 10, 1984 Tape 862 PK - 2 MR. TOBIN: this administration and the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) have gone a long way in trying to resolve that situation. I would say this administration just a very few short months ago put in place the Drug and Alcohol Foundation 1 which has a very wide broad mandate of responsibilities,and they are doing a terrific job and they are to be commended for it. And I believe, Mr. Speaker, that surely demonstrates the concerns that this government has to the problems which the han. gentleman just spoke to. Mr.

Speaker, earlier on today there was a great deal of debate on the Department of Transportation. The han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) referred to the present Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) as being some sort of a weakling, of a man who sold out. Well,I would say to the han. Leader of the Opposition that ... the present Minister of Transportation is one of the best that this Province has ever known. MR. STAGG: Right on! Right on! SOME ~ O N . MEMBE RS: Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: Mr.

Speaker, all I have to do is look at my district, I can look at my district since I became involved with the han. minister ,and I can tell yo u that the minister nor myself have anything to be ashamed of in terms of provincial dollars being spent in the district of Burin- Placentia West. The minister has always been available to tra vel to my district,as he has to all other districts in this Province,and to lend total support to councils, to concerned groups. It was just last Summer myself and the minister, Mr. Speaker, spent days on end travelling in Placentia Bay.

Why were we in Placentia Bay last Summer, if he wants to talk about ferry systems? Why did we spend days down in Placentia Bay last year dealing with ferry systems? We spent time down there, Mr. Speaker, because of the contempt and the arrogance that the 2311

April 10, 1984 Tape 862 PK - 3 MR. TOBIN: federal government displayed towards the people of Burin-Placentia West. And, Mr. Speaker, do you know something else? That that action by the federal government to downgrade the ferry service, to give the people of Placentia Bay no adequate service, not the type of service they were used to, that type of display by the federal government was supported by the Liberal Party in this Province. I remember trying to present a petition in this House on behalf of these people and we were rudely interrupted on several occasions by the members opposite. And I can say, ~!!r.

Speaker, that I am proud to have an association with the minister as I am sure all of my colleagues are. And I hope that he has a long stay in Transportation because places such as my district are beginning to get a chance to prosper. Now, Mr. Speaker, we can look at the various departments that comes under the heading of Government Services and I can say Municipal Affairs is another example where water and sewer, Mr. Speaker, in my district, in the last two years since I had some input into the dollars that were allocated; that the 2312

April 10, 1984 Tape No. 863 SD - 1 MR. TOBIN: district of Burin -'Placentia West has recieved hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for water and sewer improvements. Now, Mr. Speaker, we can look at the district of Burin-Placentia West1which has been neglected for so long by the people who represented it not caring one little bit about the people of that area, and I can say, as I have said in this House the other day1that I look forward with a great deal of enthusiasm to within four years, Mr.

Speaker, having spent more money in the district of Burin Placentia West than was spent in the last ten years by all three former members. Why is that going to happen? That is going to happen, Mr. Speaker, because of people such as· the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), such as the Minister of Municipal Affairs C~..rs. Newhook). and others who care about rural Newfoundland. And all it means, Mr. Speaker, is that we have the ability to work with these people to get the opportunity to put our case to these people and th.e end result is· that work has been done in our district. Since I became elected, Mr.

Speaker, we have put water systems in Lewin's Cove. In Burin, Mr. Speaker, we have s-pent in excess of $250,000 last year, Th.e year before that1 I say there was well in excess· of $500,000 spent there. Marystown, Hr. Speaker, I would suggest we are well over $1 milli.on in water and sewer service. Rushoon, Mr. Speaker, we were there and upgraded the water system. We have had several meetings in Rushoon and1 as· a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, on Friday comi:ng the Minister of Fisheries CMr, Morg~nl will be in Rushoon for mee~ings· along with my colleague from Fortune -Hermitage (_Mr. s·tewa.rtr where we will be addressing the needs of the people. We will be travelling, Mr. Speaker, extensively in the distri:ct of Burin -Placentia West as well as the district of Fortune -Hermitage to speak with the pe