VOL. 2 NO. JQ PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, APRIL 28, 1980 iJ:I

April 28, 1980 Tape 1073 EC - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. sPEmR (Simms)": Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. s. NEARY : Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the hen. the Premier. I really do not know how to phrase it. I suppose I am going to give it a little bit of a

preamble. Reports have been reaching my desk of late that a lot of NewfoWldlanders have been burnt by investing in the stock market and buying stock on oil, but the thing that disturlls me about it - and I am not sure if it is ethical or illegal or conflict of interest, but I want to find out about the government' s fiscal agents, . ~ Young Weir. They recently established a brokerage office in St. John's. They are now dealing in buying stocks and .bonds and a lot of Newfoundlanders - well, IIIAybe not a lot; that is not a fair statement - but some Newfoundlanders have been taken in by this company.

They are the government's fiscal agents, and I am wondering if, in the Premier's opinion, he would consider that to .be ethical?- "because th.ey have to do business with the government, they have to talk about revenues from offshore, they have the inside track.- Is it ethical, is it morally right for the government's fiscal agents to open up an office in St. John's to deal in stocks and bonds 1 mainly oil stock? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, Mr. Speaker, we are into a .bit of a grey area when you talk about is it ethically - you know, it comes down to one's opinion, I guess.

So the question the way it was phrased is very difficult to answer. I think the question implies a number of things that should .be set right. McLeod Young Weir are one of the Province's fiscal advisers in the canadian market, that is fact number one. The other formal fiscal adviser is Dominion Securities and then there are a whole bunch of other people also who participate in the bond issue in the Canadian market. 2a4n \' ~

April 28, l980 Tape 1073 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Then there is another group who au our fiscal aqe:]lts in the United States market and another qroup who u-e fiscal agents· for us iil Europe. 'l'here is no information flow from us to McLeod Young Weir or the other way around as it relates to revenue, as it relates· to offshore yet because there is no determinat:i.on as to whether in fact there is going to be a co=aercial develOpment or not. So that is hiqhly speculative and therefore, McLeod Young Weir are in no better position than are th111 other people who are in the market today as it relates to information.

They get their information the same as Greenshields do or the same as Merrill Lynch do or whatever. And the logs and everything are a.ll :made public by the coJDPany before, anyway 1 at the same time as we get them. So there is no information that I. can 1;hink of off the top of my head that would give them ant advantage in advis ·ing prospective clients on invest:aent in a particular oil company over and above what other so-called houses have in St. Jolm's right now. 2841

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1074 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAXER (Simms) : Supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would gather from the han. gentleman's answer that he would have preferred that the firm, t.~is government's fiscal agents, McLeod Young ,Weir were not in this business, I think it would be better if they were not in it. Now Greenshields( and McLeod Young Weir and wood Gundy have taken an awful lot of Newfoundlanders to the cleaners. Merril Lynch, by the way, I am told so far have been playing it fairly straight.

They have been accepting orders on the telephone without checking the customers' credit. their past performance as far as credit is concerned. Is the han. gentleman aware of this? if he is, could he tell the House whether or not this is ethical? According to the Ontario Securities Regulations,is this legal or ethical to accept order;on the phone, take these people in without checking their - ~ because I understand there are a number of writs alTeady issued and there will be a number of writs issued today or tmrorrow or sometime this week, that is the situation?

Does the han. gentleman know this is going on and~if so, how does he feel about it? MR. SPEAXER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I must say, I am overwhelmed by the hon. member's opinion of my opinion. And all I can say to the han. member for LaPoile is that,yes, I am aware generally that there are individuals in the marketplace who have made a lot of money. I am also aware from rumors strictly rumors- I do not know if it is true or not;- that there are other people in the marketplace who have not, who have lost a lot of money.

I do not know, I honestly de net know '"'hether the practice :,eing operated by the various people- Merril Lynch, Wood Guney, Greenshields, ~cLeod Yo~~g ;~e±r - is legal, illegal or whatever. I only can say that, you know, for anything that has come to my att~ntion that what these people or firms are doi:1g .in the Province is legal and aboveboard ., lf not, then somebody would have been after either taking some action against 2842

I; e. April 28. 1980 Tape No. 1074 so - 2 P~XIER PECXFORD: them or whatever. You i<.now, ! have not gone out of II'IY way to try to find out whether in fact anyt..'1ing is illegal.

I have no evidence to S\.'flport any personal investigation on ~ey part. to try to find out sorr .Erthing that they are doing that is wrong,out I ~~ow ~~at there are a lot of people - so I hear- who have mace a lot of roney. lind I also haar that there are sol!"! ;?eople who have lost money,but as far as I know everyt.!Ung that has been done to date has been fair and square and aboveboard. evi dence to sh .ow other.,isc from these companies . I have no HR .

SP!:A..~R (Si mms) : Order, please: Before I rec ognl ze the hon . merr;er for La?oile,perhaps I should poin t somethin g ou t with reference to procedure ~or asking questio ns in order t.':.at members ·o~ill not think that it has been overlooked. There is a reference b 3eauchesne that says that ~ uest.icr~ asked du_Ying Question Period ,, should not: require an oM.swe r involving a leqal opinion. I bring t.':.at to the attenuon of the hon . rr.e!llber in case he might wish co rephrase his question. ~lR. S . ::-r::!I.RY: l-!R. SPEA.."<E~ : !:..a.?c ile . ~lR . S. NEARY: Supplerr.entary, Xr. Speaker.

Suppletr.entary, t!le ho n. meli'J:le r for ~ •.rould harclly expect the hon . t.he Premier to giv:e me an illegal opinion, ~lr . Speaker, but I appr eciate your drawing that to my attention . I would have thought, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. 9entleman would have been ve .ry concerned 2843

•' April 28, 1980 Tape No.l075 EL - 1 MR S. NEARY: about these matters because it is the government that has created this boom atmosphere that has caused an awful lot of Newfoundlanders to get into the trouble they are in. One, I am told, this morning had a writ served for $900,000, close to a million dollars. Other writs will be served today or tomorrow involving SlOO,OOO, $56,000 and so on, by the government's fiscal agents and this is the thing that concerns me.

I asked the hon. gentleman before, and I am going to ask him again if he is aware that the resident manager of this company, McLeod Young Weir is flagrantly violating either the law or the spirit of the law by not observing certain traditions or regulations particularly dealing with credit practice and credit checks of their customers who placed orders on the telephone?

Now, if the hon. gentleman is aware of that, and I mean, if it was the government that created this atmosphere in this ~evince by their statements and by their faith in oil and so forth. would they not be concerned enough to check with the Ontario Securi~ies Commission to see if there has been a violation of the regulations of the Ontario or the Quebec Securities Commission? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFOFD: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of points that come up as a result of the member for LaPoile's (S.Neary) question.

One is, the questions to date, from the member for LaPoile have not directly centered on the questions concern Obviously, I am, or government is, or all, I suppose, Newfoundlanders would be concerned if anybody loses ~oney in this way. So, the concern, the question earlier had to do with legalities, ethical opinion and so on and I gave my opinions on that. If the hon. the member for LaPoile wants me to give my opinions on whether I am concerned or not, I can give him my opinions on that too. Yes, I am concerned, obviously, if any entrepreneur 2844

fi April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1075 EL,- 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : or businessman or individual in the Province loses money in this way. "" So there is no question about the concern, there is a question of what you can do about it and whether J that is part of the market process. Secondly, no ques~ion,I do not- I ·. am not familiar or do not know, I do not travel in those circles, I do not know about somebody losing $900,000 or somebody else losinq :$90,000 .That is out of my leaque altogether.

I am just the poor, lone little boy from South Brook, Halls Bay, Green Bay who is trying to do a job and,you know, if the member for LaPoile (S .Neary) knows something about people who lose $900,000, you know, that is big news to me, that is out of my league altogether. And I am not familiar with those figures or, you know, I am not familiar with those names or those firms.

Thirdly, on the question of atmosphere being created in the Province, let me say to the hen. member for LaPoile tbat,if I remember correctly, that whan the first pronouncements on the Hibernia discovery came out , most of the · pepole that I have talked to in the street or who called my office - I do not know if anybody from the Opposition; there might have been one or two from the Opposition, just afterwards , commented upOn it or asked ~e more questions about it, privately , was tnat we were playing it down and 'What is wreng? You know a lot more than the companies know and you will not say.

You are really hiding inform- ation.' And we, 2845

:-; April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1076 ow - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: deliberately,right from the beginning, right from day one, before day one,tried to pro- vide factual information and no more. Not get into the area of opinion,because we knew that th"': was fraught with dangers, fraught wi"th the kind of thing that we are now seeing in the marketplace by individuals who were taking ·the advice of stuff that was coming over the wire from companies which was completely wild and talking about Saudi Arabian kind of structures and so on, it was on that kind of basis that a lot of investments were made.

The public pronounce- ments by government were very reserved and cautious and will reaain so until additional information becomes available which will, in fact, give us reason to be more optimistic than we have already we are. MR. S. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the situation has changed drastically since then because of the involve- ment of the government's fiscal agents .

And I cannot help but goinrr back to my original question, that some of these people who went to McLeod Younc Weir, who went to see the local manager,and they only opened an office here recently, I understand, felt that these people were in the know because they were the government's fiscal agents. And from the information supplied me, it would seero that this company is not following tradtional practices or regulations laid down by the various security commissions. And I am asking the hon. gentleman would he not be concerned about that particular aspect of it?

We are talking now of the government's fiscal agents getting into the business and I am sure that people out there and the reason they come to me, Sir -I do not hobnob in that circle either,as hon. members know - they have no recourse, they cannot go to the Ombuds- 2846 '

April 2B, 1980 Tape No. 1076 ow - 2 MR. S. NEARY: man, they cannot go to anybody on the government side, they get no sympathy, they come to the unofficial Ombudsman for the people of this Province, they come to me. And so I am asking the hen. gentleman again 1 is he not concerned that the government's fiscal agency would have placed themselves in a kind of a conflict of interest situation in this matter? MR . SPEAKER (Simms) The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: - - Two points, Mr.

Speaker; first of all the reason why McLeod Young Weir has an office in the Province is because we demanded that they put an office in the Province if they are going to be our fiscal agents. And when we went out to the various individuals in the marketplace the various bond houses, we indicated that one of the conditions of being a fiscal agent of the Province was to provide services locally too and to have a local office.

So I am pleased and proud that these people as well as others have an office in the Province and that is how they got here, if you will, and hope- fully they will ~elp put some additional competition into the marketplace. Number two, on the whole question of whether there is a conflict of interest as it relates to our fiscal agents, the statements by the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) are extremely general and vague and in no way substantiate some of the allegations that he is making or implying,and that is that the fiscal agents are not abiding by the rules laid down by the Ontario's Securities Exchange Commission. So unless and until the hen. member for LaPoile can either, in this forum or in some other forum,demonstrate to me some legitimacy to the allegations, then it would seem that it is inappropriate for me to pursue the matter all that much fnrther. It gives me some concern on the one hand,and then on the other hand 2847

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1077 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: that is sort of subtracted from because the member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), in his usual manner, does not provide any substantial information to give any credence or validity to the statements that he is making. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the It is something of a hypothetical question, but I would like to ask the Premier if he feels that it would be wise for him, and his associates, to examine the possibility for the future.

I would assume at some stage down the road it is conceivable, indeed we all hope that it is likely, that there will be a prospectus prepared with regard to bond issues or something of the sort, which will involve oil and gas information or revenues or the things of that kind?

Now accepting of course the Premier's assurances that there has been no flow of information to this moment,I think this is one of those cases where it is not enough to be right, one must appear to be right, would the Premier look at the validity of having fiscal agents at some point in the future who must of necessity embrace in a prospectus information which conceivably could have an effect on the market? MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Finance and others in the government have over the last number of months been contemplating when is an appropriate time to do that. You see, the problem is on the one hand members of the Opposition are alleging that we are creating a false atmosphere and we respond by saying that we are not, we are trying to be factual, but by the very nature of the questions that are now being asked gives rise to additional inflation of the expectation.

So it is difficult then to answer without once cautioning yourown self that by even answering the question you are going to be left bare for additional allegations daily from members of 2848

•:( April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1077 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: the Opposition because of statements you made in answer to the question which originated from other than the government. So therefore I qual ify any answer I make by sayin g that I hope that: anything I say does not be miscontrued as crying to once again create an additional op tim istic ac::r.osphere,and we are not trying co do that.

At an appropriat:e time,in government's opinion,there will be addit:ional information provided and appropriat:e applications to t.l1a lending agencies and all the rest as it relates eo this. aut at: chis point i.n c:iJne you have one well called Hibernia P-15 which flo ws at somewhere over 20,000 barrels a day, sweet crude, and you have two additional step oue wells being drilled,•.,hich are not completed, and a thud well on a wild cat: called Sen Nevis being drilled . So there is not really sufficient information . All the information that is available has been produced or released now.

At some point in time, after additional information comes in from those wells,! think the hon . the Leader of the Opposic:ion's (Mr. Ja.ntieson) queseion is •1alid, that government must then put out either an appendix or a full scale prospectus as it: relates to the overall development opportunities in the Province generally,and included in that: would be a ma jor component dealing wi~~ the offshore oil and gas. And that I would suspect would be done sometime laeer chis year. 284~

April 28,1980 Tape 1078 AR-1 MR. SPEAKER (Sinuns): The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn) and it is related to the hiring practices an~ procedures for people acquiring work on the offshore rigs. In view of the. length of time that is required to be on these rig.s, four weeks on and four weeks off, and in view of the fact that this oould be quite new work for a lot of Newfoundlanders, I am wondering what procedures are used to screen workers to ascertain their suitabili~y and adaptabilitv for this kind of work? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manp9wer. MR. DINN: Well, Mr. Speaker, hopefully the screening process is one where a person who has the necessary qualifications to do any partic:. .. ,0 P: job in the offshore is hired. If they cannot do the job, if they prove that they cannot do the job while they are out there, then I guess they choose to come in. Now the fact of the matter is there is a twenty-eight day on, twenty-eight day off operation in the offshore that we are currently looking at.

The present contracts that have been signed with the drilling companies and the supply vessels etc., are ones where we do have that sore or a situation . We are currently looking at it so that in our upcoming negotiations we can discuss with the companies whether or not it would be preferable to them , number one, and more advantageous to the workers, number two, as to whether the length of time out and in could be cu~ in half to, 3~y, two weeks out and two weeks in. MR. LUSH: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon.member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I was hoping that the minister would have said that there was some sort of looking into,if you will, some sort of searching into a person's background to ascertain whether or not the person might be mentally or physically suited for this kind of work because,as I have said again,it in many case~ it would be a new type of work • And I tcok note of the minister's answers that a person could come in. Now the next question is how long will it take for a person to get in? 2850 *' I

i\pril 28 ,1980 Tape No. 1078 AH-2 ~m. LUSH: Are helicopters readily available in the event that it is discovered tha~ a person is not psychologically suited ~o ~s kind of job or a person migh~ have men~l health problems or whatelfer? How quickly can a person get in from one of these rigs once it is found out that: the person is experiencing prob~ems of whatever nature? !·m. S?EAKER (S i=s): :·:R. OINN: P.on. Minister of Labour a.nd Manpower. ~lr. ~aker, there is a fairly routine shuttle back and forth by helicopter on a daily basis.

I ~~ve known of, r believe, one individual that landed on the drill ri c ~n d decided that it was not the place :'le ... anted to w-ork and came back immediately. 1 would think that if he stayed there that night that he could get out: the next day. But t:here is a fairly r~lar shuttle back and Eorth by helicop~ ·er to the rigs and I have not heard of any people who complained that they could not 2851

-r I April 28, 1980 Tape 1079 EC - 1 MR. J. DINN: get off when they basically wanted to get off. So it is one where we have a control. We do not generally request people to . take a psychiatric examination or anything for the work offshore, as I sappose half of us would not want that type of an examination for people who ran for the House of Assembly or ·half- of the hon. members would not make it. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. '1'. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Si.mals) : A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. T.

LUSH: Re the recent drowning on the rigs just a short while ago, the first, is it the minister's intention to set up a Magisterial Inquiry to look into this particular incident? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I have many things that I am responsible for in the Province. I have a full case load of problems that I am endeavouring to solve. It comes within the purview of the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) if there is an inquiry or if there is not an inquiry into the death offshore.

We are very concerned about the offshore with respect to occupational health and safety and we are wondering what, if anything, can be done in the next drilling season. We are attempting to get a programme together so that we C?.u;.~-~EO~~ibly do something with respect to it. 'lbere does not seem to be any other jurisdiction that looks into it.

The Canadian Government appears to have a hands-off attitude when it gets outside twelve miles, so we are currently attempting to look after all the problems that may arise with respect to the offshore and I will inquire when the hon. the Minister of Justice gets back as to whether there will be a Magisterial Inquiry. There certainly will not be anything with respect to the inquiries that we have had in the past. I do not think there is any wrongdoing in this case or anything like that.

The possibility of a judicial inquiry with respect to the offshore is in the competent hands of the hon. the Minister of Justice and his department and he will report to the House in due course. 2652

April 28, 1980 Tape 1079 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (SiJmns) : Tbe hon. the ~ember for Windsor - Buchans. MR :· s·:-NEARi :- - __ You reall.y ••~- a fool of yoursel.f that ti.me. AN HON. MEMBER: Terribl.e, terrible! MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of ConsUller Affairs and Environment (Mrs. H.

Ne.whook) • The minister may be aware that it is a stated · policy of Abitibi Price to ~>pend $180 million in a five-ye~ progrilllllljt, and that $180 million is to be spent in environmental control in .~ ~ious holdings. ·I would presume that the bulk. of it wUl be spent in _~ -_t4~r liO~di~q~- .. --~•ir millS~ eouid the minister indicate whether or not she is aware, _as minister responsible, how muc:h of those dollars, of that $180 million that wil.l be spent by Abitibi in enviroiilllimtal central over the next five years will be spent in this Province in view of the considerable holdings and the considerable areas that they own in this Province and the environmental d.ulaqe they may or may not be doing in NewfoUI;ldland?

MR. SPEAKER: 'lhe hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Envirolllllent. MRS • 1i. NEWHOOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker , just recentiy we had a meeting with 285

April 28, 1980 Tape No. lOBO SD - 1 MRS. H. NEVIHOOK: Abitibi Price; they were in my office and outlined a programme. I really can not remember the amount of money that they will be spending this year,but I can certainly go back and check my files and I can bring it into the House. It is a very large amount but I am not sure just what the figure is right now. MR. G. FLIGHT: HR. SPEAKER (Simms): Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Supplementary, Hr. Speaker.

Supplementary, the han. member for Could the minister indicate to the House if Abitibi Price have indicated at this point in time exactly what areas in the Province of Newfoundland they will be spending that m::mey?

To give an example, will it be to cut back on the pollution going into the Exploits River; Will it be to cut back on the pollution or environmental disturbances that are existing in the various cutting operations] Would the minister indicate exactly­ I will accept the fact that she does not know how much money they are going to spend in the Province out of that :?180 million they are spending in the country, but ~ill she indicate as to what areas any money spent by Abitibi Price for environmental controls will be designated for spending? MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Hinister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. HRS. H. ~WHOOK: Yes, Hr. Speaker, if I remember correctly,! think most of the money will be spent with regard to the effluentgoing into the Exploits River. And they will be putting in some new equipment and I think they are planning to convert to a high - what do you call it? - output or something like that of the pulp. I forget exactly what they call it now,but this is, I think, under a two year period and then there will be also some renovations, I think, or some improvement to the air quality around Grand Falls.

I am not sure about what will happen in the wood cutting in the woads,but I will get all that information and give it to you at the next sitting of the House. 2854

·.Ji.~ Ap:-il 28, 1980 Tape No. 1080 so - 2 HR. G. <LIGHT: Final supplenentary, Mr. Speaker. - MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Fin .al supplenentary, t;he hon. member for Windsor - Buchi!l!.s. MR. G. FLI~T: It is common knowledge, Mr.

Speaker, to the minister that ]!l)itibi Price is spencling a vast <llltltmt of money in the next coup ,le of years f~r conversion purposes in the mill and they have stated that publicly and they have .eaz.arlte.d the a.DDun .t of money to be spent ,but they have not at this point in time indicated how ~y dollars they are going to spend in environmental cont:"Ol in Newfoundland and whether those dollars are to be spent ---- --- on the cutting back on the effluent . the pollutant, that is now going intQ the Explo its !liver.

And I would suggest that the minister, since Abitibi .E'rice has indicated that they are going to spend this money in the country, then we should, when we l,ook at the lack of environmental controls that is being practiced right now in that in(lustry, that the minister should determine that this Province gets a share of that =ney . · I agree with her that they should pl.n them down and see just ·how much money is going to be spent on cleaning up the ExPloits River. 285 5 ...;

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1081 NM - l MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, they have not indicated what they wil~ be doing over a period, I think it is of two or three years, and it will reduce substantially the affluent going into the Exploits River and I will be able to tell you just how much. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

I have an awful situation down in my district, In the Summer fishing station,I suppose as it is known now of Blue Beach, there are some 100 fishermen down there and they cannot get to their fishing boats because of the condition of the road. Now I understand the road is now no longer classed as a fisheries access road, but under the minister's department. Unless you have a four wheel drive, or some sort of a track venicle you cannot get to your boat or to your gear. I was wondering if the minister could offer some help for those fishermen because it is the biggest fishing area in, I suppose ,the whole Bay St.

George area at the present time. They have not caught their herring quota yet and the fishermen are eager to get to their boats and cannot get there. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, this has not come to my personal attention before. Is that the road to Blue Beach? MR. HODDER: Yes. MR. BRETT: I would assume that it is reacting the same as most of the gravel roads in the Province, you know.with the frost coming out of the ground it is breaking up and really it is better that our maintenance forces not go in and try to grade, you will only tear it up more.

The only thing I can tell the hon. member- you know,I will take it under advisement and have a look at it and if there is anything we can do,then if we are 2856

t April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1081 NM - 2 MR. BRETT: responsible for the road then we will do what we can. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: I might point out to the minister that some of the local highway people were down there with shovels trying to fix the road because I understand the grader was broken down. But there has been $2.7 million spent on a federal breakwater down there, the road is now deterioriated totally, completely. The fishermen cannot get to the area.

Federal constructipn work is supposed to start, the tender is about to be let in a week or so, is time, and I make this my final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, there was ~250,000 budgeted three years in a row for this particular road: Is there any chance that we may be able to get some of this money because every single year at this time of the year we have the same problem?

It is going on year after year that in the height of the fishing season the fishermen cannot get to their boats and we are talking about 100 fishermen, we are talking about thousands and thousands of dollars being lost to the economy of my district. MR. SPEAl<ER: The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker,I do not know- the hen. member mentioned a figure of ~250,000, It was probably budgeted by Fisheries, you know,I assume,because the road was not our responsibility up until this year, But in any case I can only repeat what I said, Mr.

Speaker; as soon as the weather conditions improve and the road dries up we will do what we can to keep it passable so that the fishermen can get over it. MR. SPEAKER: has expired. Order, please! The time for oral questions 2857

v- ' ' April 28th., 1980 Tape No. 1082 DW - l ORDERS OF THE DAY On.motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply on Head III, Executive Council, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please! I would like to point out to all hen. members that we have four hours and thirteen minutes remain- ing in committee. Before recognizing the first speaker,with respect to the point of order that was raised by the hen. member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms) I have since checked Hansard and I would rule that there was no point of order but the hen. member took the opportunity to clarify remarks attributed to him. We are on Head III, the Executive Council. Shall 302-01 carry? The hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTs: Mr. Chairman, I have largely said what I wish to say on the topic we were o~ on Thursday and Friday, but there may be some hen. gentlemen on the other side who wish to get into the debate and we would certainly welcome that.

I think thereare saveral of us on this side who would be quite prepared to carry it on for the four hours and twelve minutes, roughly,that areremaining. !,however, wished to make just one point that I did not get an opportunity to say on Friday because we we:te treated to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) inter- vening in the debate and he, of course, has a right to do it so we listened to what he said. But I simply wanted to make one point with reference to this letter which the former Pr~me ~inister, Mr. Clark,sent to our Premier. The letters have been made public, of course, they are quite important.

The letter from our Premier was sent the 23rd. of August and the letter from Mr. Clark was sent, I believe,on the 14th. of September 285A ... -:

... April 28th., 1980 Tape No. 1082 DW - 2 MR. ::. ROBE?.'l'S: and t~ey have been made public. And I hazarded che view in the House that in my opinion these letters were not worth the paper they were written on and I simply want co say that they are not. The t~inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) goc quite uppity about that and h~ felt that I was, I think, casting aspersions on the paternity or upon the descendancs of the Prime ~inister, as he then was; he is now the Leader of the Opposition, of course , where he pr esumably will rest for a little while. I have no such thoughts in mind .

The ~inister of Finance, I suppose because he is unable to come to grips with the issues,has to twist and to try wriggle these thi ,nqs around. But I will rest my case - you know, I could go on any length - I do not know- thac bon. gentlemen wishes, but r have no hope of con - vincing the Minister of Finance-! would not atcempt that -but I will rest my case very simply on one fact,that when we come to talk of the valu e of this lecter, this 285 9

April 28,1980 Tape No. 1083 AH-1 M.'l.. ROBERTS : exchange of letters and it is an exchange of letters between heads of government. Now I co~+d do a textual analysis of it which would show exactly what i$ or what is not in it,and there is not very much in it, but I do not even need to do that. I will rest my case simply-on the actions of the Premier who,during the recent federal election when the then Prime Minister,Mr. Clark,came to St. John's in his quest for votes 1 had a meeting with him. Now we do not know what passed at the meeting. We,of course,were not there.

As far as I know it was only the Premier and the Prime Minister who were at the meeting. MR.F.ROWE: the Confederation Building. MR.

ROBERTS: We know they had a row on the steps of we know about the row on the steps of the Confederation Building and it is reasonable, I think, to infer that what went on at the meeting was not all sweetness and light,to use a phrase that is much in the public print these days. we do know what happened afterwards, that the Premier emerged from the meeting with the then Pri~e Minister and said - and I believe I am reportin~ correctly the gist of what he said,although I would not attempt to reproduce the word2- that he had asked the Prime Minister for something more secure , more meaningful, something more real than the letter from the Prime Minsiter dated September 14th,the famous letter allegedly giving us our offshore rights.

As the r1inister of Finance (Dr.Collins),I am sure,will recall, and I am sure the Premier recalls too, there was some difference of opinion. In fact,it got to the point where the Prime Minister, as he then was, that night . at a public meeting held at Holiday Inn here in town had to go to this somewhat unusual and I am sure unwelcome length of saying publicly that really the Premier seemed to have misunderstood or had perhaps reported it not quite correctly,but in fact that nothing more was going to be done nor could anything more be done.

Well, all I wish to say, and the only reason why I raise the incident,although I am delighted to talk about it,the only reason I raise the incident is to say to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) that if the letter was really worth anything at all, the letter 2860

.L. ~~ April 28,1980 Tape No. 1083 AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: from tha Prime Minister, 1~hy did we go through that exercise? Well of course the answe~ is that the letter from the Prime Minister, as ev~n the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) will have to accept - I know he does not want to accept it, I know that, I can understand that,but even he will have to accept that the letter was not worth a~ything and that is why in the middle of an election campaign the Premier found himself in a position where he ~ad to take an action that turned out to be potentially embarrassing to the Prime Minister.

I~ may or may not have embarrassed him because certainly the Prime Minister wten the election was over was out of office. It might or might not have been the re~ult of that. When the election was over the Liberals had more seats in Newfoundland and Labrador than they have had since 1965: It might or might not have been the result. When it was over the percentage of the popular vote won by Liberal candidates was the highest it has been since 1965: It might or might not have been the result 1 I do not know.

These things often are not simple cause and result 1 but I will simply say to the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) that if he really thinks those letters are· worth anything 1 he might stand up and address himself to the question of why then the Premier ~ad to undergo this exercize. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) ,I suspect, cannot answer because there is no answer. Tte fact remains the letter from ·the then Prime Minister, the rich hon. Joseph Charles Clar k, P.C., M.P., member for- where is it?- Kicking Horse Pass or something?- what is his seat called? AN HO N. MEMBER: He got ~:ic~:ed out of it. MR.

ROBERTS: Well anyway a Northern Alberta seat, to the West of Edmonton, up in the mountains around Jasper. The letter from Mr. Clark to our Premier is really nothing more or less than a statement of political intent and I have no doubt if it made - MR. BARRY: We will want the aame thi ng fr om Mr. Trudeau. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. Min ister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barr

y) says he '"ant s the same thing from Mr. Trudeau. I will deal wit h that whenever we want to deal with it but I will say - the minister was out in Alberta, I think, making a speech. :-IR. BAR..'<.Y: Be honest now. 2861

;:( April 28 ,1980 MR. ROBERTS : Tape NO . 1083 AH -3 I am ah;ays being honest. The minister may not recogni ze it: because he may have difficulty knowing honesty, hut I am always honest . ~I:R .SARRY: Would you accept that Mr. Trudeau giving the same statem en t of intent would be a step forw ard? would you accept that? !'IR. ROBE.~S: No, I would not accept it as a step fo~d because the lener is not ·~orth the paper it is written on. ~. BARRY : Oh my ! Oh my! MR. ROBERTS: I will go back to talking ,if the minister so wishes .

I "''Ould be delighte<:i to talk some more about exactly ...,hat: I believe he should be doing. The Province has no"W revealed th .at tt;ey a:e talking about control and not oloolllership,and this brings us right back - !1R. Bi\RRY: :-t.~. ROBERTS: Sad . Yes, I think the lllinis~er· s performance is vezy sad and that is what: I have been saying at some length. But, ~lr.

Spea~er, I ·~ant to come back, if I may, just to finish demolishing the Finance ~tinister (Dr.Collins),because in the absence of the heavyweights in the Cabinet, the )Unister of ~lines and Energy (11r . 5a:rry ), the Premier, che ~linister of ?isheries (M!:. Morgan ) , the big three ir. the CabJ.net, the Minister of ?inance (Dr. Collins ) was left to carry the can on Friday,and he did,as best he could, which was not very good in my view. But ! simply want to say that: the letter from Mr. Clark is not worth a t:J.nker' s hoot or a damn if that is a par liamentary ... ·ord- it is not o,'Orth a tinker's damn.

If it is not pa..rlJ.amentary I ,;ill draw it back. MR . JA.'1IESON: 1-IR. ROBERTS: may not have carried It is 0-A-H. If l·lr. Clark stayed in office , :1e may or 2862

. t· I April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1084 EL - 1 MR. E. ROBERXS: through with it. Let us assume he meant to carry through with it,but his record of promises as composed with actioru.~spoke for itself. But all I will say is that Mr. Clark = · is not in office 1 and the people of Canada, including the people of this province, took the decision to put him out of office very decisively, very dramatically, very effectively and very quickly. So I simply say to those on the other side that the letter from Mr.ClarW is an interesting historical document.

When the Minister of Mines and Energy(L.Barry) is back teaching law or practicing law after the next general election,and whether he will be or not depends on whether he seeks re-election in his constituency >··.~f£ he does, I predict he will be back teaching law or p~acticing law or otherwise adding - MR. BARBY: Come on in to Mount Scio. MR. E. ROBERI'S: No' come on in to the Strait• 'of Belle Isle. I live in Mt. Scio. Come to the Strait 'of Belle Isle. And I would think the hen. gentleman has about as rnuch chance of being elected in the Strait of Belle Isle as I have in Mt. Scio. SOME liON.

MEMBERS : Oh , oh • MR. E. ROBERI'S : And that is why he is running there and I am running in Mr. S cio . PREMIER PECICFORD: And that is why you are living here and not there. MR. E. ROBERTS: That is right. And the Premier, of course, is running in the district in which he was born, Bellevue. MR. JAMIESONz Hear, hear! MR . E .. ROBERI'S : The Premier will be standing in Bellevue . PREMIER PECKFORD: I have lived a lot longer (Inaudible) - MR. E • ROBERI'S : The Premier has certainly lived a lot longer down there and they voted for him, they voted for him three times.

I give them full marks for that ,and the y may even vote for him a fourt h time and I think this litmus test is very, very much in place. We are 2B63

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1084 EL - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: going, now, to go the point of view where where one runs depends on where ones mother happens to be at the third trimester when the thirty-sixth week cometh and passeth, and where ones mother happens to be, not where ones father is, but, I, Sir, I would say to-the Premier, I have always accepted the theory that if a cow has calves in a china shop, that does not make them soup plates. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , haar I MR. E. ROBERTS: So that takes care of that particular argument. MR. D. JAMIESON: It might make th- a bull in a china shop. SOME . HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hearl MR. E. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to simply say that if the Minister of Finance (J.Collins) has any,_ any desire to retain the least shred of credibility, he will get up and say that he was humbly and contritely sorry· for what went on on Friday. ... MR. THOMS: He is only going to grossly misintrepret what you are going to say. MR. ROBERTS: Well, the sad thing about the Minister of Finance is he believes what he is saying. I mean, that is the pathetic

part 1 and I think' it is pathetic that the man gets up and exposes his inability to participate in this type of debate. Let him stick to fi~ance. I mean, we know what the troubles there are and we know what little the Minister has done to correct them. We will talk about that when the government calls the Budget de~ate. But, I do want to say that my time - oh, how quickly it goes by when one is engaged in such pleasant discourse with such intelligent, reasonable and altogether pleasant gentlemen and ladies as we have on the other side, Sir, that,you know, the letter from Mr.

Clark•- was a political promise,in my view ---incapable of implementation, and I might say there are an awful lot of people across Canada including an awful lot of Tory ministers that were in Ottawa who feel it 286L

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1084 EL -3 MR. E. ROBERTS: was incapable of implementation, whatever the intent, and I would simply say that promises by Mr. Joe Clar~- -were never kept in any event. It is hard to believe any one single - it is hard to understand or recall any one single promise made by Mr. Clark · before he became Prime Minister that was later transmitted into action. And 1alas, we will never know on this one, because of course, Mr. Clarw~· for at least the next three or four years, is out of office. We will see what happens down the road. We will see __ ___ _ what_ happ~n~ here pown the road.

Now, if we want to carry on with this, I would love it. 'lbe Premier was -ay, he was, I think over in Halifaa c;ivinq us a uew theory on Confederation. llN liON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Na, not last veelj:,I believe he was in Halifax last week. -·of Ynity. I saw a report ot a most interesting speech at the CoWlcil ------· -~ - -- - - - MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Order, please. MR. E. ROBERTS: I shall carry on. so quickly. Ah, wel.l, another time, Sir, MR. CHAIRMEN(Butt): The hon. the Premier . PR&~ER PECKFORD: Mr.

Chairman, it is difficult to know how to respond to people who get ?aranoid about a particular issue as the Opposition,obviously have •gotten paranoid about this one. And I cannot help it if they are on the wrong side of the fence. I mean, on this iasue •• I just cannot help it and I feel sorry for them and I apologize for their position - I apologize to this House and I apologize to the people of Newfoundland. It is not my fault that they have built them- selves into a corner.

It is not the people on this sides' fault that they built themselves into a corner 1and i-t is going to take more than the hon. the member for the Straits of Belle Isle(E.Roberts),given all his pontificating, his all egotism, his so-called pretentiousness, his effort , always, since I have been in this House, to try to put everybody on a level ten times down from where he is; 2865

April 28, 1980 Tape 1085 EC - 1 PREMIER PECICFORD: let me tell the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. E. ROberts) that all his little so-called substantial arqume.zits, the bottom line of which are all very teclmical, refined and· do not really grace the issue at all, are without really any foundation, they really should not be answered at all. And as the member for the Strait of Belle Isle says himself, if the people on the government side of the House want to continue this a.rqument - and here, he _)_iJ the one who is really pursuing the 111atter. We have not pursued any further.

I just ask• the Leader of the Opposition, I just ask the member for ------ the Strait of Belle Isle, I ~ all members of the Opposition~ 'l"he proof of the pudding is in the eating. One of your own members had to leave your party, had to leave your side of the House, get out, because you people would not come down firmly on the whole question of the ownership and control of the mineral resources on the Continental Shelf. I mean, there is the proof of it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! P:REM.IER PECICFORD: Yo11 cannot keep your own members on your side becallSe you will not come out on the principle. And, Mr.

Chairman, they can weasel all they like.

And the IIISIIlber for the Strait of Belle Isle can talk about the former Prime Minister and try to use his lack of delivering on certain promises - allegations to that effect on thAt -&nd try to dismiss the legitimacy of our claim by talking about a former Prime Minister whom he did not happen to like,or talk about the fact that the Premier has only lived for ten years in Green Bay and therefore, for some strange reason, does not have the same validity to be the member for that district u _ somebody else from somewhere else for some reason brinqs -it, I do not know what his motivation is. 'l"hat will not colour the fact that the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, the Leader of the Opposition and the members on the opposite side have not got the intestinal fortitude to come down heavy and strong saying in principle we agree with Newfoundlanders having ownership of the mineral resources on the Continental Shelf.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: That is the question, Mr. Chairman :· Let us not muddy it with other little tiny sidelights. 286R

f/ April 28, 1980 Tape lOSS EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : Let us not try to evade it. Let us not try to capture some kind of headlines with flimsy little arguments. Let us deal with it head on, Mr. Chrlrman. And the Opposition will never, as long as I: am in this hon. House, '- they can attempt all. they like to ·get away with the situation'- but they are not going to qet away with the situation, because people on this side will not let them.

Let every member of the Opposition stand in his or her place and say, 'We agree with the principle that Newfoundland has ownership and control of the ainerals on the Continental Shelf.' Now, they are saying different things. The Leader of the Opposition, members opposite, join~ ~~~~-the pcesent Prime Minister on the stage over yonder at the University and tried to say that the only way around this issue was by going to the Suprelll8 Court of Canada, and that is diluting the whole case that we are trying to establish. You know something, Mr.

Chaill:lll&n, ~n going across Canada and in talking to Premier Bennett of British Columbia, in talking to Premier Lougheed and some of the Opposition members - Liberal Party - in both of those provinces, in talking to both the N.D.P. and the Liberal Party of Saskatchewan, in talking to the N.D.P. and the Conservative Party and the Premier of Manitoba, in talking to the various political leaders in ontario and in Quebec, in talking to Premier MacLean and the Liberal Party of P.E.I. 1 in talking to the Premier of New .Brunswick and the Liberal Party of New Brunswick, in talking,as I did,with the Nova Scotia leaders the other day, the only place I get any opposition to ownership and control is in my own Province.

It is right here. SOME l:lON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECI<FORD: Let me inform the hon. members opposite, it was not insignificant or unimportant, it was not by accident that last week or the week before that the four Premiers of the Western Provinces came out saying that they want a new federalism. And did the hen. members opposite happen to notice?

I thought it would be a que&tion i~ Ques~on Period today, that the first question would be to the hon. the Premier, Did the hon. the Premier hear the statement made by the four very powerful Premiers of Western Canada last week as it related to a renewed federalism, in which there was very significantly put a phrase 'including the offshore rights for mineral resources' when they talked about a renewed federalism. 2867

April 28, 1980 T~ 1085 EC - 3 PBEMIER PECKFORD: Because we have succeeded in qarner~ng to our cause all the political parties and forces from Manitoba out to Vancouver Island. 286R

April 28, 1980, Tape 1086, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: That is what I thought would be the first question today, Mr. Chairman, that we have been able to garner people in British Columbia, in Alberta, in Saskatchewan and Manitoba to our cause, that they do agree with us that ownership and control- of the mineral resources on the Continental Shelf or continental margin are a principle that should be embodied in any new constitution.

And I would ask the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) to stand,when I sit down,and endorse the following - I challenge the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, I challenge the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Jamieson) to get up and acknowledge without qualification these four principles: Number one, Newfoundland should own the mineral resources of its continental margin in the same manner as if those minerals were located in the onshore portion of the Province and should have the same legislative competence with respect thereto insofar as that is consistent with international law; Two, the legislative jurisdiction and responsibility of the Government of Canada in such areas as the protection of the environment, national defence, customs and excise, shipping and navigation and external affairs must be .fully recognized; Three, the mandate of the Government of Canada to regulate the national economy, international trade and inter-provincial pipelines through such mechanisims as the National Energy Board must be fully recognized; Four, confirmation of Newfoundland's ownership of offshore minerals will be effected by the signing of an agreement between the two governments and the subsequent confirmation of that agreement by appropriate legislative action. 2869

~~ April 28, 1980, Tape 1086, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: Those are the four principles that I challenge the Leader of the Opposition, I challenge every member opposite to get up, not only to acknow~edge but to agree with totally, without qualification. Because if that is so, there is t6tar and absolute agreement in this Province of our ownership and control so that we can move on toward getting that effected through the proper means, as outlined in those four principles. AN HON. MEMBER: They cannot do it. PREMIER PECKFORD: But they cannot do that. You all have taken different positions on it. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: You do not. You are against the Province having ownership and control of our mineral resources on the Continental Shelf. SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : the member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Oh, oh! There go the paranoids. A point of order. Sit down! Order, please! A point of order. The hon. The Premier is completely distorting something which was clarified last week by the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), spelled out point blank, accepted by by everybody who was on the other side, in his absence.

He absolutely clarified the position and so he is completely distorting the position. I mean, he is having enough problems with his own position, his non­ position, and he has had a lot of fun, but he is completely distorting the position of the Liberal Party. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. 2B7n

April 28, 1980, Tape 1086, Page 3 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon.·the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: To the point of order. That just shows the bankruptcy of the Opposition, because they cannot even make a point of order. That is not a point of orde·r - that is nothing. And that is like their position on the offshore. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order. I would rule that there is no point of order but merely a difference of opinion. And in this particular case, the hon. the member for Bonavista North took the opportunity to put forward his point of view. The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Obviously it is just a stalling tactic because they do not like to hear the truth. I ask the member for Bonavista North to, this moment, leave his position in this hon. House - and I think all members will agree - move toward his office, sit down and write a letter to me as Pr~~ier of the Province - he has copies of the correspondence that I had with the former Prime Minister - and put down in writing,and sign his name to it, that he concurs fully and supports those four principles and pass it to me before the House closes at six o'clock. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: The onus is on the Opposition not to get up and from time to time give different statements by different members. I challenge every member of the Opposition - we will close the House down for a half hour and ask them to take a copy of this correspondence and write and sign their names to what is here. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 2871

" ~;· April 28, 1980, Tape 1086, Page 4 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: I challenge you. I will agree to close the House down. We will have a recess for a hq.l .f hour until that can be typewritten. MR. STIRLlNG: You cannot do it. PREMIER PECKFORD: No problem! MR. F.B.ROWE: Who are you? PREMIER PECKFORD: Is that the problem? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: There is no problem? Put it in writing. Put it in writing. In the minute or fifty seconds I have left, Mr.

Chairman, let me just say that if any of the members of the Opposition think that we have been somehow derelict in our duty in pursuing this matter further, so that they are trying to use that as an argument - they are trying to forget about the principle now - 'Now you are not doing what you can to ensure that this comes about with the present federal government'. We are in the process of talking with the federal government. We will be putting forward the same situation as we have here. Number two, my second point is that we are pursuing this matter with the present federal government.

Thirdly, as it relates to the former Prime Minister, 287?

·( April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1087 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: and that meeting that I had with th~_former Prime Minister, I put that forward Mr. Chairman-, as an example of the non-partisanship of this particular administration to try to fight for Newfoundlanders regardless of­ political stripe or colour in Ottawa. That is what I put that forward as. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: What I was trying to do was not only get that enshrined in writing from the then Prime Minister, but I was trying to push him even further and to say to me, "Give me dates on which we can have the first meetings pursuant to these principles, in writing,l 1 so that we could then have a number of meetings held before the federal election actually occurred on that particular date to show him.

That is what I was trying to do and that was for all Newfoundlanders -ilO NDPs, no Liberals, no Conservatives, but all of Newfoundlanders-to try to get a better deal even out of what I would classify as my Prime Minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It is hard not to get on your feet after you have heard such - AN HON. MEMBER: Garbage. Trash. MR. THOMS: - trash, rubbish, naive, inane, silly, stupid statements coming from the Premier of this Province. Now I do not want the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) to look at me like that either. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: Because every word that I said in trying to describe the Premier of this Province applies equally to the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Thank you for the compliment. 2873

f' i April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1087 NM - 2 MR. THOMS: I would suggest if you want to be stupid and silly and ignorant and inane and full of rubbish and garbage, like the Premier of this Province, then be my guest. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to the Premier of this Province that he go back either to Thurs~ay or Friday and read Hansard, read what my friend from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) had to say. MR. BARRY: Where is the writing? MR. WHITE: It is in writing, in Hansard. MR. THOMS: It is in Hansard. MR. BARRY: I will ask him now to put it in writing. MR. THOMS: I will put it in writing.

I do not mind putting anything that I say in this House in writing. Anymore than anything I say in this House 1 I will glady repeat outside this House any day of the week, any day of the week. MR. BARRY: Why it is that the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) is saying that ownership is not important? MR. ROBERTS: Can I answer that, 'Les'? Let me simply answer that question. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): If the hon. member wishes to give leave - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! If the hon. - MR. THOMS: I yield. MR.

CHAIRMAN: - member wishes to yield to the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Sir, I simply answer the question for the benefit of the school boy debater, to say that ownership is not the issue; he and I resolved that in this House four or five years ago. The issue, as even he and his colleagues have now come to realize,is control. Control is the issue, not o~ership. MR. BARRY: Control is (inaudible). 2874

i" l'.pril 28, 1990 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman - PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. ROBE:aTS: Tape No. 1087 NM - 3 No, Sir. As far a:s we are concerned, (Inaudible} • The Premier is not only spe~g l~ke a child, he is acting like a child. I would simply. ask pbn to stay quiet for a moment. The question of ownership was settled in this House back in 1975. MR • .BARRY: Follow thr ough on it. MR. ROBERTS: We ha ve foll owed thro ugh . The probl em - MR. BARRY: :tou are not: i:he gove.r:nment . ~!R . ROBERTS: Mr . Cha irman , I have only - ~!R . Cs:JURMAN: Order , please ! Orcie r , pleas e ! MR . aDBE:RTS: Mr . Cha irman . Mr .

Chairman . ~!R. BARRY : (Inaudible) all che time . MR . CR:AIRMJ\.N·: Order, please ! MR. ROBERTS: Mr . Chairman . ~!R. Cl:IAIR.'1AN : 0rde.r , please! Ord er, ple a se ! ~IR . ROB.ERTS : As Your Honour please s. ~1R . CHAIR!1AN: The ho n . membar for Grand Bank (Nr. Thorns ) as I - the h.on. melnber ... ishe s to yield t o hi.s colleague to speak on a point • I would as)~. him if he would please not im:errupt him while he is sf)eaking. ~!R .

ROBERTS : I will get back on the floor in a moment or two and my friend can car r y on with his speech. , but I simply want co lay thi s base , de liberate dis t o~ion, or chis incredibl e neqligence on che ,pa..-t of the Minister of Mine s and Energy (Hr . 3arryl ; own.ership is not che is sue ,and wheth e r he agrees with chat or not ·the fact remains mat in chis !louse ownership is not the issue . The fact reJnains i t i s control is the issue ,!lJld all the twisting s and rneanderings of the minister, the school bo y deba1:.e.1: and the kindergarcen debater •,rill not change that, Sir . 2875

i • April 28, 1980 MR. CHAI.RNAN (But:t): liR. TEO.'IS: MR . -ROBERTS: he does not: control it. ~!R . TE.OMS: Tape No. 1080 NM - 4 The hon. member for Grand Bank . 11r . C!'lairman - Harold Duffett owns the land d.owntown, - I have said it in this HOuse before and I will say it again and I will say it aqa.in today, t:hat I •..tant Newfoundland co own, t:o obtain the max .imum benefit; whatever phraseology you want to use I am prepared t:o go along with. Now as far as I can under stand basically 287 6

April 28, 1980 Tape No.l088 SD - l MR. STAGG: . . Write the Prime Minister now. MR. L. THOMS: - not basically- that is the position of this caucus. Now, the red herring is this, and I say this to the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) 1 that you d!J not want to hear it because then all of your ammunition is gone. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. L. THOMS: You do not want us to agree with you on it. You will not accept it. I could put it in writing - red, white and blue ink - and you would not accept it because you would have nothing to talk about. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. L.

THOMS : And that is the position that this gov~rn!l'ent and this administration is taking. MR. BARRY: !:ffi.· CHAIRMAN (Butt): Are you critizing (inaudible) Order, please! I have difficulty understanding the hen. member for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms). SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. L. THOMS: The member for St. John's West (Mr. H. Barrett]- is it?- says he has difficulty understanding me. We own the offshore resources. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. L. THOMS : MR. BARRY: MR. L. THOMS : MR. S. NEARY: MR. L. THOMS: Hear, hear. we own them. Is Mr. Trudeau in on that now? No. We are not Mr. Trudeau. I am not Mr. Trudeau.

When was the last time you talked to Mr. Trudeau? MR. BARRY: Have you critized him or his stand on Newfoundland? MR. L. THOMS : For what? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. L. THOMS: Since February 18th you have not asked the Government of this nation whether or not they will sign an agreement or what they would do. 2877

April 28, 1980 MR. I?ECKFORD: question. MR.. L. THOMS: ~1R. J?ECXFORD: MR. L. THOMS: SOME BON . !o!E}!BERS: MR . L. THOMS: SOME HON • MEMBE !'S : MR. PECl<FORD: politics. MR. E. !lOBERrS: MR. PECl<FORD : MR . L. THOMS: MR. CHA,IRMAN (Butt) : MR. L. THOMS: MR. CHAIRMAN: J1R. L. THOMS : SOME HON. MEMB!:RS: ~· CHAlRMAN: MR. L. THOMS: Tape No. 1088 SD - 2 No, we have not, that is not the · You have not asked the~n 1 (Inaudible) Fine. Oh, oh. important. Okay, it is business as usual, Oh, oh. (Inaudible) still into Political posturing by the Premier. (Inaudible) we want you (inaudible) . Mr. Chai%'111an. Order, please!

If I may, Mr. Chain:wt - 'nle hen. 111elnber If I may, Mr. Chairman - Oh, oh. O:tder, please!' 'Ihe reason why they are taking this position is because this adlninistration has done nothing for this Province - SOME BON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR, L. THOMS : - since June 18th. So what do we get? I read out the list of legislation the other day that is going to co~ne before this House, anendment to a~nusement rides and that is probably one of the biggest things to come before the House. MR. E. ROBERTS: Yes , they are taking us all for amusements rices . M.R. S . NEARY: ~lit. L .

THOI•IS : Do not forget the l!'mbalmers Associat.ion. An anendment to the Elnbalmers Association, or whatever it is. What else has happened in this Province since June 18th? 287A

,. April 28, 19 80 SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR . THOMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN (But ti : MR. L. THOMS: Tape No. 1088 Oh, oh! Nothing more - Oh, oh! Order, please! so - 3 Mr. Chairman, nothing more has happened in this Province since June 18th than a few little bits of legislation that we have seen go through this House. So what is the oil and gas problem all about? MR. FLIGHT: MR. L. THOMS: What is it all about? They are playing politics. I mean, this caucus, this Party is for ownership of the offshore oil and gas. 'l'he Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L.

Barry) goes on radio and says, "Well, why are the Liberal Party ~ot up in Ottawa trying to get Pierre Trudeau to agree that we own it?" Well, I would like to remind the Minister of Mines and Energy and the Premier of this Province that on June 18th you were elected to govern,not this Party - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. L. BARRY: MR. CHAIRMAN : MR. L. THOMS: MR. CHAIRMAN: time has expired. MR. L. THOMS: Hear, hear. - you were elected to (inaudible) . Order, please! Get off - Order, please! The hen. gentleman's Thank you very much, Hr. Chairman.

All I would say is that I would like to ask j:hem to get off their butts and do something about it . ~~. D. JAMIESON: (inaudible) MR. CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible) getting up, I have Before I recognize the hon. the Premier, I would just like to make one brief comment that it is rather mind-boggling to listen to about forty people speaki~g at the same tim e, so perhaps we could restrain ourselves. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, look, the question here, and I know the Opposition are all uptight about it,but the fact of the matter is that obviously since the day that the member for 287g

April 28, 1980 Tape No, 1088 so - 4 RRE;!illER PECKFORDi a.tie Ve:r::te - White Bay (Mr. T. RiCieout) crossed the floor that the~ ue having a change of heart on the opposite side of the House, There is no question about that. The me :mber for Btie Verte - White Bay was not comfort.Wle with the pos ·ition that the Liberal Opposition and the Liberal Party of Newfoundland were taking as it related te offshore because they were wishy-washy, 01;1e day one member was 28 80

April 28th., 1980 Tape No. 1089 ow - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: saying that we should go to the Supreme Court of Canada, another day the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) was talking about control as being all important, another day another member was saying _some_thing else. And I have challenged, Mr. Chairman, the _Opposition now here today that I will recess this House, I will agree and I am sure all the members here on this side will agre~ that we will recess the House and we will ask only because, not for playing politics, Mr.

Chairman, playing legitimate politics for Newfoundlanders because we want to be unified in this House as it relates to our ongoing battle and fight with the federal bureaucrats and the federal politicians to ensure that we get the oest deal possible and the stronger you are when you begin that the better off you are. So let us be totally unified on this issue and let us now recess the House and ask the Liberal caucus to go into meeting and to e~dorse in writing - ~- STIRLING: Check Hansard. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr.

Chairman, there is a whole bunch of things in Hansard by different members and that is why the member for Baie· Verte - White Bay had to cross the House, that is the reason. Because you are confusing, you are not clearly establishing that you are in favour of ownership and control,and it is a lot better to go with fifty-two members totally unified in talking to Ottawa than it is to go with thirty-four, even though we speak as a government. We would love to have, we want to have the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White), we want to have the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), we want to have the member for Grand Eank (Mr.

Thoms) we want to have the members for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) and Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock), we want to have the member for " St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett), we want to have the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) with his name signed on those princi?les. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No way! ~o way! 2881

_,. April 28th., 1980 Tape No. 1089 DW - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: The member for Fogo (Mr. T~lk), stand up and be counted, the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde, (Mr. Rowe) stand up and be counted, the member for Windsor - Buchans (M~. Flight) 1 stand up and be counted, all of you stand up and be co~nted not by wishy-washy statements 1one· me~ber saying one thing, another member saying something else. Put your money where your mouth is and that is commumicate! Put your name to it, put your name to those principles! Put your name to those principles that you agree with ownership! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh!

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, may I speak in silence? MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) Order, please! The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : I mean , if the hon. member for the Strait of Be~le Isle (Mr. Roberts) is serious 1let him put his name to it, that is the final support mechanism that the Liberal Party can use. You would think, Mr.

Chairman, if the Liberal Opposition is so paranoid on this issue, if they are so supportive of the government's position, introduce a reso­ lution and we will suspend the normal Orders of the Day. we, the members of the House of Assembly, overwhelmingly or enthusiastically support the government's position on the offshore so we can send it to Ottawa tomorrow morning. Let us do it now this afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Ten after four: let us suspend the normal Orders of the Day, Mr.

Chairman, and have a member of the Opposition, preferably the Leader of the Opposition, introduce a resolution into this House calling on all members to fully support the government on those four principles! have a vote. SOME HON. MEMBERS: I challenge you to do it! Let us Hear, hear! 288?

April 28th., 1980 Tape No. 1089 DW - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: Let us have a vote, Mr. Chairman. Do I hear applause from the opposite side? Do I hear the member for Terra Nova ·tMr. Lush), sitting in the wings there now, will he agree with that? Will the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) agree with that approach? Let us suspend tbe normal Orders of the Day! The member for Windsor - Buchans 1 do you agree with that approach? MR. G. FLIGHT: No, no~ PREMIER PECKFORD: Bingo! Bingo! Does he agree with that approach? The member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), does he agree with that approach? MR. J.

HODDER: PREMIER PECKFORD: No, no! No, no! There you go, there is dissension, he does not agree with our approach. The member for Trinity Bay de Verde (Mr. ~owe),does he agree with this approach? Do you agree with this approach? We will suspend the normal Orders of the Day and put in a resolution supporting those four principles. The member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk),does he agree with that approach? The member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling), does he agree with that approach, y.es or no? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Qh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: I have the floor. Yes or no? The member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms) ,he is coming to his seat, does he agree with that? The great citizens' man, the man from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), the unofficial Ombudsman, does he agree with that? Let us suspend the normal Orders of the Day,intro- duce a resolution supporting those four principles that we have ownership and control of the mineral resources,and it will go forward from this day forward. The member for Lewis- port (Mr. White),does he agree with that approach? No comment. How about the han. the member for Labrador 1 does he agree with that approach? No comment. 2883

April 28, 1980 Tape 1090 EC - l PREMIER PECKFORD : So there you have it, Mr. Chaizlun., that is what I have been trying to demonstrate, that there is dissension. Some people in the L!beral Opposition are saying 1 yes 1 , some people in the Liberal· Opposition are saying 'no 1 , some people have to cross the floor to show their dissatisfaction. There is total and abs-olute disarray on the opposite side of the House on one of the most important issues ever to come before it. SOME HON, MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Ah , Mr. Chairman, how easy it is to flush them out! There is the confusion.

It lies there, it is festering there and it is hurting Newfoundland. And I ask the Liberal Opposition to come out of hiding. Come out and show your true colours, show us you are Newfoundlanders, true, blue Newfoundlanders. Let us go forward from this day totally united that we own and control the minerai resources •o we will have a chance one day to be as good as somebody who lives in Toronto or Hamil ton. That is the whole answer. Come on 1 out of your caves , come out into the sunshine of Newfoundlandia and let us go forward and be together as we fight this great cause. Come on! Let us go! SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hen. the member for Trinfty - Bay de Verde. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. F. ROWE: The Premier is gone berserk, completely berserk. He is gone out of control. He is the one who is uptight, it is not the members of the Opposition who are uptight. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. F. ROWE: And the reason the Premier is uptight, Mr. Chairman, is because we, if we ever were, we are out in the open, we are out of our caves,if we were ever in a cave. We are out of hiding if, in fact, we were ever in hiding.

We have stated our stand when he was not present in the House of Assembly. We are for ownership and control of our resources off our lands. MR. WARREN: Right on. 2884 ~~

April 28, 1980 Tape 1090 EC - 2 MR. F. ROWE: And he hangs his hat on a turncoat from Baie Verte - White Bay. SOME HON. MEMBERS c Hear, heart MR. F. ROWE: Well, let the record stand, Mr. Chairman, lat the racord speak for itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. F. ROWE: The member for Baia Verte ~ite B!i-Y (Mr. T. Rideout) did not make one public statement except once in the Housa a week or twn before he crossed the floor, did not make one single policv stat&ment on behal.f of the Liberal Party or the official. Opposition for the whole time that he was the spokesman for Mines and Enargy on the Opposition side.

Not once did he speak up except in the House shortly be fare he crossed OVIU4 Sir, not one speech except the speech he made which we did not know he was going to make. And, Sir, let the record also speak for itself. That same bon. member,whom the Premier is hanging his hat on, the big red herring, the same hen. member, was the same member who campaigned openl.y for William Rompkey, the member for White Bay - Labrador - Grand Falls -White Bay - Labrador, or whatever they call it now- campaigned openly for that Liberal M.P. who was endorsing ~~e stand of the now !'rime Minister of Canada.

He campaigned openly for that member. Let that speak for itself. And, Sir, let one other thing speak for itself; that same hon. turncoat - if I can call him that - that same hon. member, the only thing - and I hope I am not breaching a caucus sac;:_re_cy ~ere - not one statement in caucus except, 'I am uncomfortable.' A few weeks before he crossed the floor, he let us know that he was uncomfortable, the only word we heard from him. And that was the same hon. member, Mr. Chairman, who over twelve months ago was then talking about crossing the floor or not running for the Liberal Party.

And in fact, a deal was almost struck, and then when he heard that a certain hon. member was coming back, he gutsed out and he did not consumate the deal on the other side. MR. PECKFORD: lbat is your problem • . _.:: • .- ~ .-·--- ·- -- SOME BON • MEMBERS : Oh, ohl MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Premier has the problem. MR. HODDER: !t is your problem. 2B85 ,· ~.

April 28, 1980 :rape 1090 EC - 3 Ma. F. BOWE: Now we ruwe gotten rid of the hon. the Dlelllber for Baie Vert~t - White Bay (Mr. T. Rideout) , I say now he has the probl-, not us in this hon. House. Now, look, Mr. Cba.izman, the fact of the matter is how many t:imas do we have to stand up in thiS Ho"Use of Ass$1bly ~d State & - We. oD DOt beliew We thJ.M We own the oil and gas - we have an historic right, we own it, there is DO question about it. It is the methodology of control and 110 forth. Now, the hon. the P~er asked us to Support hi.s stand, The member for LaPoile (Mr. s.

Neary) "':do~ ·t~~--- · has stood up in this House and eataloqued off five different positions enunciated by the government opposite. 1Now, I challenqe the P~er, 1!1bich one of these five positions do they stand for? Which position do they stand for - extending boundaries, or the other four that escape my memory? 'l'here are five or possibly six different positions. What do they 288

j!l'i April 28, 1980 Tape NO. 1091 EL - 1 MR. F. ROWE: stand for?And now, Mr. Chairman, when the Premier finally realizes that we agree with the principles he is talking about, he drags this foolish red herring,or whale,across the floor by gallopi~g o~t in the common room and signing a sheet of paper to send off_to the Prime Minister of Canada. When we say that we agree with ownership, then the Minister of Mines and Energy(L.Barsy) wants us to get up and critize the Prime Minister of Canada. What is that going to achieve? What is that going to achieve? Hon.

Members opposite say,' Talk to pour buddies in Ottawa and straighten it all up.' Have hon. members opposite forgotten that they were elected to administer this Provinc e in June last? It is governments who negotiate with governments, Mr. Chairman • Oppositions do not negotiate with governments. Our political friends in Ottawa happen to be the Liberals. They also happen to be the government. But they are not going to entertain neg­ otiations and agreements being worked out between the Opposition of this Province - MR. LUS H: I wish they would! 1~. F.

ROWE: • - and the government of Canada, that is not the way it works. It is governments negotiate with governments. Governments make agreements with governments, no matter what the political colour. You do not have oppositions going up working out the negotiations- MR. LUSH: Fi rst Minister (inaud ible ) • MR . F. ROI'IE : - and making agreements. It is too stund to talk about, Mr. Chairman. The fact of the matter is, the Premier now, Sir, has realized that the people of this province recognize the phoniness of the argument. They thought they had us backed into a corner.

They thought they had us backed into a Oorner. They thought we were dis­ agreeinc with them. We support ownership- MR . LU SH: The y want us to disag re e. 2887

'•'( April 28, l980 Tape No. l091 EL - 2 MR. F. ROWE: - the concept of ownership. They want us to disagree so they can go to the people sometime, in the near future, ·I would suspect. MR. HODDER: To keep the issue alive. MR. F. ROWE: Now, Mr. Speaker, how more sacred can you be than get up - how more sacred can it be than - MR. STAGG: Tell us about the Supreme Court. MR. HODDER: You tell us about it. You are the guys to negotiate. You tell us. MR. F. ROWE: How more sacred can it be for hen. members to get up in this House and say we agree that we own the oil and gas off our shores in this hen. House?

How more sacred can you be? MR. HODDER: got time. MR. F. ROWE: We would negotiate for you if you have not Do we have to swear it on the Bible? We said it in the House of Assembly and we will continue to say it. We· do not have to criticize Prime Minister Trudeau. We can see what happens when he has criticism. We saw the spectacle of the members opposite - the Premier opposite - before the last election getting into television fights with the Minister of Fisheries. What good did that do our fishery?

We saw the spectacle of the Premier of this Province going out on the Confederation Building steps and saying, "There is some misunderstanding. Oh, Joe, I did not say it." "Brian, I did not mean to say that." What a spectacle. The worst sort of thing you can do, Mr. Chairman, is to negotiate in public, and the Premier should learn that and learn fast.

The best way he can get any agreement from Ottawa, whether it is a PC Government or a Liberal Government, is to go up and negotiate in good faith, not try to play politics here in the House of Assembly, sending out little pamphlets, getting his puss on TV every other night, going around talking about unity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: What a man to talk about unity! 2BBR

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1091 EL - 3 MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, we do not stand a ghost of a chance in this Province if hon. members keep pursuing this foolish politicking on the other side. Now, I will restate it once again. And, by the way,all this foolishness about- and I was just about to say the right thing- all this foolishness, Mr. Chairman, about going to the Supreme Court. I will tell you about that . The Supreme Court is the supreme authority in the nation. Now, just one second Mr. Chairman, if they will allow me to finish - MR. STAGG: Aha! MR. F.

ROWE: No matter what governments agree to what, no matter what governments do, it can still go before Supreme court. Now, the han. the Premier knows that~~d if anybody ~as some sense over on the other side, the y realize that. The present Prime Minister of Canada said if there is a referral to the S~preme Court, it will go-how?· Uncontested~ PREMIER PECKFORD: No, no . MR. F. ROWE: Yes, yes, uncontested. That is what he said. And at least he had the guts to face a few thousand university students who can filter out around this Province and give the Prime Minister 's message to the people of this ?rovince.

And the result of it was five Liberals being elected to Ottawa. That was th e result of it . Now, I will say, Mr. Chairman, use some sanity here. Forget about the politics about trying to paint us into a corner. MR. LOSH: You will not do it. MR. F. ROWE: You will not do it. While the han. the Premier was away, we told this House, the most sacred place in this Province, we told this House that we are foursquared behind ownership of our offshore oil and gas. Now, what else does he want to hear? What we would like to hear is what is their position- of these five positions ennunciated - what is their posit ion?

When are they goin g 2889

t Apri .l 28, 1980 Tape No. 1091 EL - 4 MR. F. .ROWE : to go up to ottawa and negotiate something in the best interests of this t>rovincei! When are they going to stop negotiatinc; in pub _llc· - MR. FLIGHT: And bring back a position (inaudible) . MR F. ROiiE: and starting figh -ts in pUblic? Because 'l;h,at will get them ~solutely nowh~re. I experienced some joy, Mr. Chaizman, during the last el:ection in seeing: a bunch of Tories, prov­ incially, fighting a bun~ of Tories federally.

I experienced a bit or got my political jollies out of that, but I was a little bit sad as far as the welfare of this Province was concerned 1 because what they were up to was not 4oing this Province any good whatsoever. Now, they have a Liberal government up in Ottawa. Forget about the politics. If you want to get your political jollies, do it some other time, but for God's sake do not do it over the issue of offshore oil and gas. There is not anything as important as that and it is going to be jeopardized if _the hen. I1Jeltlbers keep on 289 0

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1092 AH-1 MR. F. ROWE: with this foolish strategy they are playing opposite. So I suggest give up the foolishness you are getting on with, we are foursquare behind with respect to ownership, get up to Ottawa and negotiate in good faith. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the member for Trinity- Bay de Verde (Mr. F.

Rowe) if he would only agree - now I thought this parliament, as the han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde has indicated, is, as he says, a sacred institution in the Province, the highest body in the land. Now what better way, the whole reason for Private Member's Day, the whole reason for resolutions is to try to put - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, may I be heard in silence? May I be heard in silence, Mr. Chairman? MR. THOMS: King Brian! King Brian! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The han. the Premier wishes to be heard in silence. MR. STAGG: Name, Mr. Chairman! Name him! MR.

THOMS: (Inaudible). PREMIER PECKFORD: May I be heard in silence, Mr. Chairman? The member for Grand BAnk (Mr. Thoms) persists. they are so - AN HON. MEMBER: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. CHAIRMAN: AN HON. MEMBER: PREMIER PECKFORD : so all I am saying to the Opposition, because A republic. Mr. Chairman, may I be heard in silence? order, please! (Inaudible). Because - Mr. Chairman, I asked for silence because I want to make a few important points. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The han. the Premier wishes to be heard in silence. PREMIER PECKFORD: I think this House would wish that every member be heard in silence, Mr.

Chairman . That is one of the rules of the 2691

April 28,1980 PREMIER PECKFORO: that it be enforced. Tape No. 1092 AH-2 House. I did not set it. I am just asking Members of this House hold it sacred that when it comes to issues of major import for this Province we have on occasion, sincei have been a member of this House, since 1972, resorted to a very, very, appropriate lever. we have done it on fisheries, we have done it - I do not know -if it was on the railway we did it, two or three times over the last years, passed an unanimous resolution because that is the only way it can be spoken - MR. F. ROI'IE: That has been done (Inaudible) PREMIER PECKFORO: Mr.

Chairman, I am trying to be heard in silence. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORO: I said nothing while the hon. member for Trinity- Bay De Verde (Mr.F.Rowe) spoke. I kept quite. I tried to listen to him, I tried to be a reasonable member of this House,and now I find that they do not want me to speak, Mr. Chairman, they do not want to hear what I have to say because they will not let me say it . MR. MOORES: I do not want to hear you. PREMIER PECKFORO: Well then,the hon. member for Car~near (Mr . Moores) will have to leave because that is one of the rules of the House. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER PECKFORO: Good . Good. I am asking all members of this House of Assembly to vote on those four principles for two reasons . MR. ROWE: Let us see them. PREMIER PECKFORO: Mr. Chairman, once again I am being interfered with an d 1 cannot get on with my flow of debate. The y were circulated at the time that the thing was released. It is a public document. Because it covers , number one, it displa ys unequivocally the support of all member s of this House on both sides. That is number one,total and absolute . And that is the reason why we are here,because we pa ss resolutions and laws.

That is the reason why we have Private Member's Da y. It is the member s of the apposition who over the la st seven or eight years have said, but if you could vote for this resolution, vot e for the air 2892

April 28,1980 Tape No. 1092 AH-3 PREMIER PECKFORD: ambulance in Labrador. That is what a resolution if for. You said a couple of weeks ago in the Private Member's Day, vote for it. That is what it is all about. Democracy is based on vote. Democracy is based on that kind of thing. That is what it is all about. So, I say not just a general - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, I am into my flow of debate and I do not want to be interrupted. Look, Mr.

Chairman, I am asking not just for a general support of the Province's ownership stand, I am asking for the endorsement of four principles which will then put every member on the record and,secondly, it will take care of that kind of cute way that the Liberal Opposition are trying to get out of giving the support,which is to say, "Which of the four or five ways do you prefer? You are saying you can do it through the courts, you are saying you can do it this way, you are saying you can do it that way." The fourth principle tells you which way the government supports of those four or five.

But we have said to the Opposition, we have said to Newfoundlanders, we have said to the federal government, there is not just one way, Mr. Chairman, there are many ways to do it. Now you can do it this way, (a), (b), (

c) or (d). But the way we would prefer is in our principle four. That is the reason why those principles are so important. Principle four says-~hat?- the above principles, the previous three, will be further confirmed and implemented by the signing of an agreement between the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland and by appropriate legislative action and constitutional change. It is 2893

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1093 NM- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: all contained in the fourth principle. What we say is one step at a time. We have an e~change of letters between the two leaders of the respective governmen.ts, step number one. Step number two is the formalizing of that letter of intent by an agreement covering those principles and going into more detail. Step number three is to pass

an act of the House of Commons as well as

an act of this House, simultaneously. And step number four, if necessary 1is to provide changes in the constitution through the natural review process which is now presently underway. You see, Mr. Chairman, I do not know if the members of the Opposition recognize but there is a continuing committee on the constitution presently in its session, looking at changes to the constitution. So that is the methodology. It is clear,it is in principle four.

Principle one recognizes our ownership of the mineral resources on the Continental Shelf in the same way as we have our iron ore on land, in the same way as we have our trees on land. Principle number two, at the same time says, "Hey, you guys, hey, Canadians,we are not trying to be selfish or poor Canadians." Number two says"such ownership of and legislative jurisdiction over offshore resources by Newfoundland will be consistent with and subject to the division of legislative competence as between the Parliament and provincial legislatures on the constitution of Canada.

Thus the legislative jurisdictive and responsibility•and so on. So we are being clear and precise in the way we want to proceed not only to enshrine the principle but also to demonstrate the methodology by which it can occur. It is all contained in the four principles, and that this would demonstrate beyond any - because you see, Mr. Chairman, the members of the Opposition cannot - I mean they might as well forget that. They might as well forget trying to win this kind of silly debate either in this House or outside.

I do not care about inside or outside as it relates politically, It does not make any difference to me. All I am interested 2894

( April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1093 GH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: in is seeing the Province move ahead on this issue, and I am quite sincere about that. Because the member for this one and the member for that one are saying different things, the member for Gander-Twillingate, a Liberal MP who sits on the government side of the House, who is a part of their caucus, is asking for us to take it to the Supreme Court of Canada, and we say there is a more simple way to handle those things.

If there is a will, there is a way, and all we want is for the Federal Government of Canada to confirm those principles again that were confirmed by the previous Prime Minister, let us move on to a formalized agreement, let us move on to legislative action, let us move on to constitutional change, which thereby eliminates in the agreement to those principles any reference to the Supreme Court of Canada and takes it out of their hands, because, Mr. Chairman, as we all say in all parliaments in this free world 1the parliaments are above everybody else. We are the highest court in the land.

Do not let us suddenly say that the supreme Court of Canada is the highest court in the land. The Parliament of Canada and the Parliament of Newfoundland, if they want to change things, all the Supreme Court of Canada does is speak on laws that were prepared by us, prepared by the Parliament of Canada, and we are above them, so that, there~ore, if we want to, we can change the law so that all the Supreme Court of Canada would do then, if it was referred to, it would be confirmed that we do own them. So it is totally and unquestionably one which begs any further debate on it, Mr. Chairman.

It is one that is clear and simple. Those four principles not only include the principle of confirming our ownership and control in the same way as we have the trees but gives the methodology by which it can be done. So let us not try to get the Opposition trying to pick me up or pick some member of the government up on, "Hey, you are not sure on which way you want to do it". We are totally clear. All I did at the time, Mr. Chairman, was to try to broaden the mandate that was available and the options that were available to the Federal Government. Here is one, two, three, four, five ways you can do it.

We have already decided on the way we want to go. The process is in principle four and it says, "Let us have a formalized 2895

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1093 GH-3 PREMIER PECKFORD: agreement as a follow-up to those letters, legislative action", but I ask, Mr. Chairman, and I challenge the Opposition members to join with us in endorsing those four principles because we think they are all encompassing and give meat to an otherwise empty kind of statement by the Opposition that they agree with our position: MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) The hon. member for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we have had an awful lot of arm waving again this afternoon, and the Premier seems to be rather uptight over this situation.

I would gather, Sir, that he heard about the debate in the House on Thursday or Friday, he heard about his government and his ministers getting creamed by this side of the House on their stand on the offshore and he is back now from a so-called trip to the mainland in connection with Canadian unity. I wonder, after reading the reports, if it was not Canadian disunity he was talking about. He used his speech in Halifax to attack the Government of Canada.

He attacks Quebec in this House and various other places outside the House, on the mainland, attacks Quebec and then goes off to the mainland and attacks the Fed~ral Government. He has attacked just about everybody in this Province that he can attack, and now he is gone off to the national arena. If the han. gentleman is interested in Federal politics then let him quit, let him get out, he has not gctanything done here in this Province, yet, has not done a thing, no action yet in this Province. But he goes off to the mainland talking about changing the constitution, attacking the Government of Canada.

You would not know but all the problems of Newfoundland were solved. I think he did more here in this House a week ago, ten days ago, and more on the mainland to cause disunity than he did to help unify canada. Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman arrives back in the House, 2896 7 '

April 28, 1980 T~pe 1094 EC- 1 MR. S • NEARY : heard about his ministers not being able to defend the government's policy illld their position, illld now today he comes in rantiilcj illld raving again. The next thing now we will have the !tinister of Mines illld Energy (Mr. L. Barry) in the debate. He has to get up illld state his position which will be totally different from the one the Premier just st~ted. And then we will have the !tinister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) getting back ~gain into the debate illld he will further confuse the issue by giving his position. And the President of the Council (Mr. W.

Marshall) is not in the House today. If he were here, he would give us a fourth position . Then we have the Clark for~~~ula that the hon. the Premier keeps waving, this piece of paper, at us from over there across the House. Well, now , Mr. Chairman, we h~ve heard quite a bit today about a resolution that was unanimously passed in this House - amended, mind you, but passed - on March 6, 1~7~. Well, nobody has taken the trouble to read the resolution.

Let us see what the resolution says. 'On a IJ¥)tion of the hon. the Minister of Mines illld Energy, seconded by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, it was unanill¥)usly agreed that the resolution be amended to read as follows, to be submitted to the House of Assembly in relation to the position of canada at the forthcoming - no, that is the Law of the Sea Conference, I do not have the right resolution here now. Hold on now. No, that has to do with the fishery; that is not the right resolution, but I will have it.

Later on in the debate, I will get the right resolution and I will read it, because wh~t th~t resolution stated, IJ¥)Ved by the Leader of th .e opposition, incidentally, and then later taken over, amended, IJ¥)ved by the Minister of Mines and unanimously passed in this House, was a resolution stating that all members on both sides of the House felt that Newfoundland owned the offshore resources. So that matter has been put to bed already. There is no further debate on that; that matter has been resolved to the satisfaction of members on both sides of the House. But the question that arises, Mr.

C:hurman, is this, that the Premier seeiiiS to be unsure whether or not the Government of canada has the right to give Newfoundland something that it does not own. The question that arises is that if there were a negotiated ~qreement or if there were 2897

April 28, 1980 Tape 1094 EC - 2 MR. S • NEARY : concurrent legislation or if - did use the Clark formula, could the oil companies somewhere down the road take the matter to .the Supreme Court? I believe they could take it to the supreme. court and then it would have to be settled by the Supreme Court. Now, I have heard the· hon. gentleman over there ranting and raving this afternoon, and I have _ no probl- - I do not think I do - if I follow him correctly, I have no problem with the four points that he outlined.

If that is the route - and I caution the hon. gentlemaA to think about it very carefully - if that is the route that this government wants to take, if they want to bring about the control or the ownership through a Constitutional amendment - and I cannot quarrel with that ~but the ra~on I caution the hon. gentleman is that in order to bring about a Constitutional amendment, in order to bring about a Constitutional change, you have to get agreement of the other nine provinces of Canada. Now how long is that going to take? liow long will it take, Mr. Chairman?

Is it possible to get unanimous agreement of the other provinces of Canada? If it is, I am all for it. Now, the hon. the Premier challenged the memhers on this side of the House to put their position in writing. Well, here is my position in writing and I am going to send it across to the hon. gentleman. I did not have a piece of paper, I had to put it on the Order Paper.

The Order Paper is dated Tuesday, April 24th - April 28, 1980 -"Premier Peckford: I support the Liberal Party's resolution that Newfoundland owns the offshore resources." Now, would you please tell the people of Newfoundland how the goverrunent is going to confirm this control or ownership - AN HON • MEMBER : Hear, hear! M.R. S • NEARY: one, Supreme Court case, two, Constitutional change; three, concurrent legislation; four, the Clark formula; five, negotiations with the Government of Canada? Now, 2898

~'. ·• April 28, 1980, Tape l095, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman; I ask the page to bring this over and lay it on the Premier's desk. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: All he has to do it he does not want to write me a letter is just put a tick by the option, by the route that the government is going to take in order to confirm the offshore ownership, because it has to be confirmed. That is what the argument is all about. We can stand in here day in and day out and we can rant and rave and we can shout and .roar at each other, but the fact remains, Mr.

Chairman, that nobody, but nobody in this House is sure who owns the offshore resources. MR. BARRETT: We are. MR. NEARY: No, you are not sure. If you were sure you would just plough on and go ahead, ignore everybody else, ignore the Government of Canada, ignore the Opposition. You were elected to govern, why are you so concerned? Why are you so concerned about where I stand ori the offshore? And I have already told you there in my letter - MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: You are knifing him. Mr.

Chairman, would the hon. gentleman please elaborate, please explain that remark that is typical of the hon. gentleman, low remark, low-level remark that the hon. gentleman just made? The fact of the matter is, Sir, that nobody, but nobody in this House is sure that if Newfoundland ploughed ahead saying, 'We own it. We do not care what the Government of Canada thinks. We do not care what the oil companies think. We do not care what anybody on the face of this earth thinks', if we plough ahead saying we own it, somewhere down the road will it be guestioned 1 2899

~:! April 28, 1980, Tape 1095, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: will we be hauled into court? And will the court decide or will somebody else decide, some other jurisdiction decide that in actual fact we do not own it? So it has to be confirmed and therein lies the confusion. There is where the confusion is arising. The han. the member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) is like myself, he is not a lawyer, he is not a constitutional expert. The hon. gentleman would get up and he would fight to the last breath, the same as I wou1d. I would go to Ottawa and I would say, 'Look, Ottawa, we own the resources off­ shore'.

I am prepared to do that. If the han. gentleman wants fifty-two members to go, I will go. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, I will go. MR. NEARY: Charter a plane and I am sure every member of this House will go up to Ottawa. And I challenge the hon. gentleman now, I challenge him, to charter an EPA plane and see how many members will refuse to go to Ottawa and say to Mr. Trudeau, and say to the Government of Canada, and say to anyone else, 'Look, we own the offshore resources'. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Right on! Right on! MR. NEARY: See how many members will refuse to go.

I will bet you 100 per cent of the members of this House will go. And I challenge him now to put it to the test. He is talking about rising the House for five minutes, ten minutes or a half hour so we can make a decision - ~I_R. CARTER: letter (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Why do you not sign the I just signed the letter. But I would say the hon. gentleman was the one who threw out the invitation. He said, 'Let fifty-two members go 2900

April 28, 1980, Tape 1095, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: up to Ottawa and tell the Government of Canada, and tell the people of Canada we own the offshore resources. No problem with me. I cannot speak for my colleagues, but let him charter an EPA flight and I will be aboard of her tomorrow morning, I will be the first one on, headed for Ottawa. MR. FLIGHT: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Right on! (Inaudible) Ottawa? To tell the Government of Canada that we own the offshore resources.

But, now, whether we can prove it, or whether we can confirm it is a different matter and therein lies the problem and that is wh,;!re the hon. the Premier is dragging in the red herring. Now, if he wants to take the constitutional route, amend the constitution to get the ownership, let him say so and then we will decide whether that is the right route, then we can take positions. MR. CARTER: All the Prime Minister has to do is say, 'Yes' .. He does not (inaudible). MR. FLIGHT: Why do you not as·k hlin? Why does the Premier not ask him? MR. NEARY: I believe, Mr.

Chairman, somehwere along the line during the last federal election I heard Mr. Clark say, after the row down on the steps of Confederation Building Mr. Clark said, 'What I mean in my letter is that you have to get agreement of the other nine provinces of Canada, then we will bring about a constitutional change and we will give you the ownership or control, whatever you call it'. That is what Mr. Clark said. So, Mr. Chairman, there is no argument. All he has to do is tell us that is the route he wants to take. 2901

April 28, 1980, Tape 1095, Page 4 -- apb MR. CHAiru1AN(Baird): I wish to remind the han. member his time is up. MR. NEARY: - and we will tell him whether we agree with him or disagree with him. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 290? "l. ,:•.

J April 28th., 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. THOMS: DR. J. COLL-INS: I am always affable 1 really. Tape No. 1096 DW - l The hon. Minister of Finane•· Hear, hear! He is very affable. I can be very affable. Actually It is just you and I h~ve ~ little argument about

interpretation every once "in .a while. Mr. Chairman, we are giving the Opposition a pretty hard time over this. There has been - I think this is the third day of the debate now and we are really pressing them and on occasion they sort of flare up a bit and feel they have a good point going and then we sort of answer and then there is a somber silence an the other side and then someone mentions something and then they flare up again. So we have been giving lthem a pretty hard time on it. However, I think what you should do is look at it in a positive light. What <~e are trying to do is to test y;ou.

We are trying to test you with a baptismal fire and just like iron is im- proved by coming out of ~ir~ believe me, you will feel betta~ when it is all over, You will feel better when we really test you, we knock down your arguments, you have brought up all of the spurious points you can think of1 and finally you really get down .to bedrock and you finally agree with our case because we thought through our case very, very carefully, Ndw, the Opposition 1 really, they are just talking off the tops of their heads, You know, when something oc~urs to them they jump on that as the great big point tnat will win the day and then when that does not come about then they jump on another big point.

This has all been thought out very carefully, very thoroughly, very closely. And what we are trying to do now is to put you through the same, almost agonizing process that we went through ourselves to reach what we feel is nedrock truth. And we are just doing the same to you now and I will tell you you will feel better at the end of it so do not be too downheartened. 280.3

f:;· April 28th., 1980 Tape No. 1096 DW - 2 SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! DR. J. COLLINS: The Opposition seems to be making a big point out or, you know, 'confi~m it' that seems to be sticking in· their throats, 'Why do you not get on and confirm it?' I did bring · up the examp.le the other day and I am going to mention it again, Just at the risk of repetition I am going to make the same point again. If you own something you do not then turn to someone who comes in and questions your ownership, you do not say, 'All right, let us negotiate and decide what the end result is'.

If you own it you say, 'You take the action, If you question my ownership you take the action: If I own something and you question my ownership you do not expect me to take the action. Possession, I think, is nine points in the law. I mean, why do we ,when we own t~e offshore resources, have as the Opposition would have us do go around and try to prove we own it? We know we own it! There is no doubt about it, we own it!

And we have said to the Federal Government, 'If you want to go along with us we are not going to change, we are quite clear in our own minds , we have thought it through, we have got the legal precedents, we know what we came into Confederation with, we are not going to change it. Now , if you want to go alonq with us here are some suggestions for you. Now there are a number of ways you can go on this;here is the way we want you to go, this is the one that would satisfy us most, this is the way we feel would make it clearest that you are going along with us.

Now there are other ways, we are not going to be pig-headed about it. We are not going to say, 'You have to do it our way or not do it at all'. We are just saying that having thought it through this to us seems to be the most transparent way, the way that everyone will clearly see that you are going along with our position. Why do you not follow these steps we give you? If you do not want to follow these steps and you want to make up some new steps, if they satisfy, reach the same objective , I am sure we will not disagree. 2904

.7 April 28th., 1960 Tape Mo. 1096 DW - l DR. J. COLLINS: No w, the Opp osition are sayi_ng, 'Oh, no you cannot do that, you cannot do that. What you have to do, you have .to go up - and I do not know what they want us to do, perhaps grab the Prime Minister by the throat and stand on his chest and force out of him some admission-that we ow n it .They want us to take some vigorous, £irm, radical action. That is not the way it goes. The way it goes is you own something, someone questions it so you ask the other fellow, then. i£ he has a doubt in his min~ let hi~ take the action and that is what we are sayinq.

The bon. membe r who just sat down-again,as I say, they are clutching at st~aws really - is clutching at ano ther straw . 2905

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1097 SD - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: He said, "Here is the way we will · win the day now. We will challenge h.i.m to put us all on a plane and take us up to Ottawa "· -- AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. BR. J. COLLINS: You know, he did not mean it seriously. You know, he has been in th.i.s House for umpteen years and he knows when he wants to make a good point he makes it in a certain way, when he makes a sort of frivolous point he does not expect to carry it the day, but 1anyway,it is something to say, makes it in another way and he made that.

You know, I have been in here long enough now to know he has made that point in that sort of secondary frivolous way, he really did not mean it. Becau:;e if you wanted to do '"hat a plane ride would 1 do just as well, do what the Prem ier said. The Premier merely said, "Everyone in this House, either individually, take the four principles that are laid down there, i.e. our preferred method of having the federal government conf irm our ownership, that is our preferred way, have every individual member in this House sign a letter to that effect either do it that way or the second way you can do it SOME HO N.

ME ~.BERS : Oh, oh. MR. CHAiffi.!AN: (Baird) Order, please! DR. J. COLLINS: - is to bring up a resolution that d~es the same thing, includes in the resolution the same four SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. CHAIR!9N: Order, please! DR . J. COLLIN S: - principles and that resolution in the whole Assembly,?erhaps, not individually,out that would do just as good, the whole Assembly then will agree to the thing.

That is the way now, that is a much better way, a much clearer way a much more straightforward way of achieving what has to be achieved than going up on a plane because what going up on a plane, if one could take it seriously, what going up on a plane would do would be to prod L~e federal government to get off its you-know-what and do the sort of thing that we require. That is what a trip on the plane would do. And we are saying that there is every good chance 2906

April 28, 1980 Tape No. 1097 SD - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: that if a resolution was brought _ into this House with those four princ;ples in it,or if each individual member wrote o~ a piece of paper the four principles and signed his name to it that he agreed with · it, that would be a satisfactory prod to get the federal government going. AN HON. MEMBER: DR. J. COLLINS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: DR. J. COLLINS : MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): right to be heard in silence. That is right. However, I will say this. Oh, oh. If the hon. members want to take - Order, please! The member has the DR. J.

COLLINS - a trip to Ottawa for this purpose I will say this, if hon. members opposite will do one of those two things, either do it individually or do it through a resolution in this House, if they do this I will tell you this, I will use my best efforts to have the Premier also agree to take the whole lot of us up to Ottawa and go in to see the federal government with this communally signed resolution or thirty or fifty-two we will all go up - MR. S. NEARY DR. J. COLLINS: in our hands • SOME F!ON. MEMBERS: DR. J. COLLINS: we will all go up. - all with the same signed resolution Oh, oh.

I give my promise that I will use my best efforts and I think my hon. colleagues here on all benches of this side, we will try to prevail on the hon. the Premier to go ahead and take us up to Ottawa on block. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. DR. J. COLLINS: Now, Mr. Chairman, there is another point that came up. and I could go into great detail on this but I do not thi~~ I will, in actual fact,I will just mention it.

The other point that came up on the opposite side is that we had unanimity of thought over here on ownership, you know, there is no dissension amongst us, we all speak in the one voice on ownership and I think the hon. member for Grand Bank (l".r. L. Thorns) thwnped the desk and he said, "We own 2907 ;!I

April 28, 1980 Ta,pe No. 1097 SO - 3 OR. J. COLLINS: it, we own it, we own it." I accept that, I am sure he mea!lt it - excelle.~;~t. So~one else made the same type of statement but is fudging over th.ere, there really is fudging. NOw if you wanted to, I could read Hansard from Friday where the hen. House Leader opposite (.Mr. E. Rober..

s) fudges on own.ership. A.'l RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. DR. J. COLLINS: Now, how does he fudge on ownership? toes he say that we &l not own it? No, he does not say it. He is too clever a debate.r to say that we do not own it . What he says is that ownership is irrelevant. It does not matter who owns it, cone off ownership. He i s trying to fudge the issue, he is trying to becloud the issue, he is trying to muddy the waters so ·that when we make the very important point - AN HON, MEMB£R: (Inaudible) OR. J. COLLINS : re.s, that is right .

When we make the very important point that we must establish ownership to go on to the next step - !o!R. L. STI.RLING: What is the next step? DR. J. COLLUIS: the hon . member .for aonavista North keeps asking me, "What is !:he next step?" The iirst step 29 0A

.... April 28, 1980, Tape 1098, Page l -- apb DR. COLLINS: is to achieve ownership. The hon. House Leader opposite, he fudges, he clouds up, he distracts, he distorts, he cannot really,in his own heart and . soul say, 'We do not own it' ,but he says, 'It does not matter', you know, 'come off it, let us ~et on to something else'. We cannot do that, we must establish ownership first. Then after that - now, this is where the boys are separated from the men, this is where the goats are separated from the sheep, this is where the P.Cs are separated from the Liberals - MR. STAGG: Hear, hear! DR.

COLLINS: - after you establish ownership then you have to go onandexercise that ownership. You have to be firm about it. You have to stand up for your rights and you have to say, 'I am not just going to say I own it', and then let someone else do it and run off with all the profits and all the benefits and let someone actually exercise your ownership. We on this side are saying we establish ownership then we take firm control of our ownership and ~e go on and we do the things that are necessary to make sure that the benefits accruing from that ownership come to this Province.

Now that is where we have a quarrel with the Opposition. Firstly, on ownership they will not stay in the one spot, they are moving all over the shop. You can hardly get at them. When you think you have them in one place they slither out and go in another place. PREMIER PECKFORD: AN HON . MEMBER: DR. COLLINS: Like Mohammed Ali. And they are cowards. Yes, they are. They think they can (inaudible)it. Corne out and stick firmly on ownership. Say, 'I will not fudge on it. I will not say 2908

April 28, 1980, Tape 1098, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: ownership is irrelevant. I will not say there is a dozen different ways of doing it, therefore, it does not matter'. That is really fudging. Stick with ownership. Say, 'We claim ownership and nothing will shift us off that'. The second po~nt is that having claimed ownership and been immovable on our claim to ownership, then we firmly get together and say, 'This is what we have to do to make sure that we get the benefits from ownership'. And this is where the Opposition will not stand still on the issue. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN(Baird): Port au Port.

MR. HODDER: Hear, hear! The han. the member for Mr. Chairman , the realization is growing on me more and more and more, day by day, that there is something amiss in this House, that for the first time, now, I have a perception that I am not going to be in Opposition very much longer. I feel that we are going to be over there pretty soon. MR. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. HODDER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. ST'IRLING: MR. HODDER: MR. STIRLING: MR. BARRY: who came over. MR. HODDER: They do not want the job. Come on over. Come on over. I said we. Come on over. They do not want the job. We! We! We!

They cannot handle the job. (_inaudible) a few exceptions It seems, Mr. Chairman, that never before as an Opposition member, and I have been here for four years, never before as an Opposition member have I had such pressure, or seen such pressure put on the Opposition to - it is almost as if the government were not sure about the next step they were making and they want 2 91 n

L April 28, 1980, Tape 1098, Page 3 -- apb MR. HODDER: our concurrence. It is almost like you were afraid to answer a question in an exam unless you asked the guy behind you,for sure,whether it is right or not. In other words, tney do not seem to have made up their minds as to exactly what they are doing - MR. BARRY: Stop undermining the (inaudible) provincial claim. SOME HON. MEMBERS : That is low. MR. STIRLING: The young people are going to begin to wonder about your plans. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible) being done. MR. CHAIRMAN(Baird): Order, please! MR. HODDER: Mr.

Chairman, what I have seen here in this House in the last three or four days, and I do not really see any sense in standing up and talking about it, to tell you the truth - I made a speech the other day and I said to you all, If you want us to go up and negotiate for you we will go up and negotiate for you. If that is what you really want~ I heard the Premier come in today with a piece of paper that