PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 54 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MAY 4,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 4 1970 Tape f1749 Page 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER: Order! HON. J. R. SMALLWOOD (Premier): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all hon. members of the House, I would like to · extend a very warm welcome to some fifty students who are here from Grade V111 of St. Peter's High School in Upper Island Cove. These fifty students are accompanied by Mr. Greeley their vice-principal, and the Rev. Mr. Rowsell their rector. They are most cordially welcome here to the House, oh for a number of reasons.

One is they come from a very famous and historic place, one of the best known place names we have in our Province today, Upper Island Cove. People by·- colourful and strong personalities, who have been noted down throu~h the years for their common sense, and their sense of humour and their great wit. In fact I suppose Upper Island Cove is known more than any other place in Newfoundland for its native wit. Some very eminent men and women have been produced by Upper Island Cove, and I think every citizen of that famous place is very proud of the history and the back- ground of Upper Island Cove.

We are glad they are here also because we are always happy to have students, young Newfoundlanders visit us, and we have had now in the . present Session, something between 1200 and 1300 young Newfoundland men and women, boys and girls from a great many schools, about half of them from St. John's and nearby, and the other half from places farther away. I am very glad too, that the Vice Principal of the school Mr. Greeley could come along with them ~rid above all, I am very proud and very happy that the rector of Upper Island Cove, the Reverend Mr.

Rowsell , who is a personal friend, is able to accompany them here today. I do not know frankly, if they are going to see anything very exciting here today in the House. We have legislation, we have laws we are going to talk about and discuss. And there will be some debate on these and I hooe that all these students will find the proceedings interesting. One thing please they should remember, and that is that the way a House of Assembly operates 3318

May ~ 1970 Tape #749 Pa~e ~ is not something that was invented in Newfoundland, certainly it was not invented by the House of Assembly. It was not invented by anyone in Newfoundland, The way this House proceeds and does its business, is a way that was not discovered, but evolved over a period of centuries in the Mother country in England in the House of Commons and the House of Lords at Westminister. And you have to watch it for awhile. You have to see it in operation for awhile before you begin to make head or tail of it. So do not judge us just by what you have seen and heard here today.

It will be necessary to do that more than once. I hope that in these students who will one day sit here as members of the House, elected to represent their districts to sit in this House to make the laws ~f the land. In the meantime, I know the Leader of the Opposition is ea~er to get and tell the students how happy he is and his Party are to have them here. I am sure the whole House unite in extending a very warm and cordial greeting to them. MR. A. J. MURPHY (Leader of the Opposition): Well Mr.

Speaker, I would like to join with the hon. the Premier in his words of welcome to the fifty students of Grade Vlll from St. Peter's High School in Upper Island Cove, and particularly to Mr. Greeley and the Reverend Mr. Rowsell. ·As the Premier said the Upper Island Cove people have a distinction all their own for theirngreat sense of humour and great wit.

During this past year I have had two or three occasions to go down and visit the beautiful place, and I was quite surprised when I discovered that perhaps I knew it before, but had a'·great number of Upper Island Cove people,were formerly working on Bell Island. I think it was a great source of employment for them. ~fr. Premier it has produced some splendid men taking their place in the affairs of the country, and I think today, I am very proud to say that one of their native born sons in the person of John Lundrigan, Covservative M.P. in Ottawa and doing a tremendous job for our Province.

He is a native born son of Upper Island Cove. His family are still there, so as the Premier has said, that he looks forward to seeing some of these young pupils take their place in not only our Parliament here, but perhaps 3319

the Parliament of Canada. I am sure they will follow with great interest their own personal member in Ottawa and feel quit~ proud of him. I am very pleased indeed Mr. Speaker, to welcome these young gentlemen, Mr. Greeley and the Reverend Mr. Rowsell, and I trust the few minutes or hours th~y have to spend with us will be very enjoyable. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I want to associate myself with the hon. the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, in extending a warm welcome to the Grade Vlll pupils of St. Peter's High School in Upper Island Cove, also the Vice Principal Mr. Greeley.

I am very pleased as well to see Reverend Rowsell here this afternoon. Reverend Rowsell was always a great hockey fan in Harbour Grace at the Stadium there, and I hope that he will enjoy his visit to the House this afternoon. Mine of course, if a personal welcome. Upper Island Cove was one of the larger towns in my district. To give you some information Mr. Speaker, there are some 550 pupils Grade Vlll and under attending St. Peter's High School, classed by seventeen teachers. In addition of course, Grade Xl, X, and Xll attend the Ascension Collegiate in Bay Roberts.

That will give you some idea of the number of young Newfoundlanders attending school in the town of Upper Island Cove. I trust that your visit to the House this afternoon will be pleasant and enjoyable, and trust that you will return to your classrooms tomorrow refreshed and inspired by what you hear here this afternoon. I am also pleased to see in the gallery Mr. Speaker, a delegation from the town council at Spaniard's Bay. I welcome you here, · and I trust that your visit to St. John's will be very fruitful. Thank you very much. ~m. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, we would like to join in welcoming the students from St.

Peter's High School at Upper Island Cove - Reverend Rowsell and Mr. Greeley, And we trust that they will see or hear something of interest here today. It is not bound to be interesting every day in this House of Assembly. And although our procedures are rules are supposed to be based on those that originated in the United Kingdom Mr. Speaker. 3320

May 4, 1970 Tape /1749 Page 1 I think there are enough differences observable here that anybody interested in parliamentary procedure would be quite taken aback almost to how this House is conducted and how these rules are changed, how the customs have changed over the years in the present House of Assembly. As a matter of fact there is a Resolution on the Order Paper that suggests that the Standing Orders be reviewed Mr. Speaker, which we consider to be a very good idea.

So we are not prepared to concede that the rules in effect in this House are those in effect in most of the Parliamentary Legislatures in the United Kingdom. But still at High School I doubt whether the students are likely to note that there are any differences or not. But we trust they will en_1oy their stay here . this afternoon. MR. ROWE (W.N.) Mr. Speaker, before you call Orders of the Day, I would like to mention an event of unspeakable sadness and sorrow for myself personally, and for the wife and family, relatives and friends of Mr. Prince Dyke who met his death by drowning over the weekend.

This young man who was in his early thirties was on the staff of my department and was undoubtedly loved and respected by all ministers and Civil Servants who had any occasion to deal with him. He played Sir, a very major role in our negotiations with Ottawa over the DREE program, and he had undoubted brilliant career in the development planning ahead of him. And that promise that he showed Sir, makes his tragic death all the more heartbreaking. I am sure I express the sentiments of this entire House in extending our sincere sympathy to wife and family over his tragic death. MR.

MURPHY: I rise to my~eet also to express my sentiments and ours with those of the hon. minister, but I am sure for such a young man with such a promising career in our Civil Service, I know it must be a terrible blow indeed, and we join with the minister in extending our sincere sympathy, to his relatives and to all those who suffered by his grave and tragic death. MR. CROSBIE': Mr. Speaker, we also would like to associate ourselves with the minister's expression of condolences to this young man's family. The minister of course, would be in the best position to know how valuable a 3321

May 4, 1970 Tape 0749 Page ~ Public Servant he was, and the minister has said that he was indeed a very valuable public-servant, and is a great loss not only to his family, but the Province, and we joing in expressing our sympathy. Presenting Petitions: HON. J. R. CHALKER (Minister of Public Works): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition on behalf of 600 residents of St. Barbe North from the settlement of Anchor Point to Savage Cove, which includes some seven settlements in my district.

The petitioners pray that we the undersigned from Anchor Point to Savage Cove inclusive, request you as the elected representative of St. Barbe North, to assert all the influence and pressure at your command to aid us in obtaining the necessary funds to begin construction immediately of a new elementary school planned by the integrated school board for the Straits of Bell Isle and Flower's Cove. The school approved by ~epartment officials has had to be postponed two years due to lack of funds. It is desoerately needed to upgrade our backward educational system at the elementary level.

The obtaining of the necessary funds to build this school would do much to offset the lack of assistance for our educational system over the past years. if the Mr. Speaker, in presenting this petition and said petit~on is granted it will mean the acquisition of a modern elementary high school for the Flower's Cove ~rea, which would include the proper education of all the children from the seven settlements concerned. It would be a centralized elementary school with most of the students bein~ transported to this school at a central locati~n. It would also mean Mr.

Speaker, the closing out of some eleven classrooms, which to say the least, are outdated even without proper facilities as one is used to ?ractically everywhere else today. In conjunction with this Mr. Speaker, this morning I was very fortunate to receive a petition from the Straits of Belle Isle School Board, who on their, at their own expense came into town this morning. At this meeting this morning, I was fortunate in ha,ing official~ from the 3322

May 4, 1970 Tape #749 Department of Education, Community and Social Development, and representatives from the denominational education council. The Board who arrived in St. John's last night have done magnificent work in winning over the people to the idea of centralizing the school system. And I may say Mr. Speaker, a few years ago I did not think this would be possible, but evidently through their persistant efforts they have done so.

The Board wholeheartedly endorses the prayer of the petitioners as they only know too well the deplorable conditions of the existing one and two room schools that this new elementary school at Flower's Cove will eliminate. Mr. Speaker, I can personally vouch for these poor conditions of those one and two room schools, and the lack of modern facilities such as water and sewerage facilities. Library and playground facilities, as well as many other facilities now common in elementary schools throu~hout this Province. I make a special plea to this bon. House Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the residents of my district, to wholeheartedly support this petition, when a very low income in my district is prevalent at the time, and where an education must be the best to assist the children to better themselves academically and through a good educa~ion to better themselves economically. I give my strongest support to the prayer of the petitioners, and ask for this petition to be laid on the Table of the House and referred to the department coneetned. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition he received and referred to the department to which it relates. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker~ I have great pleasure indeed, in supporting the prayer of the petition. I am not sure that this House is the right objective or the right place to address the petition. But the petition essentially is one that prays as all petitions must do of course, for · school improvement in the great northwest coast of this Island home of ours, and what Newfoundlander could fail to approve and support such a petition as that. Mr. Speaker 3323

May4st., 1970 Tape no. 750 Page 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, in every part of the.Province today, I suppose, with very few exceptions, people are demandinr, asking, requesting, petitioning, prayinr, and demanding, most schools, better schools, bigger schools and more transportation and more facilities for the children to get back and forth to these schools, because, Sir, there has settled down into the minds of our people in Newfoundland and into their hearts a very powerful conviction that education must be made more and more available and that it must be better and better, if the children, if the young generation of Newfoundland are to have the opportunity in life to which they are entitled for O!O reasons entitled: one the fact that they are born and that they live and the other the fattthat they are not Canadians.

Because of these two adequate reasons, every child born alive in Canada, no matter where, should have an ample opportunity. Here in this Province almost . from the beginning, the Minister of Education could tell us more about that, he has written a book to give the history of Education, but almost from the beginning of Education in Newfoundland, it has been the church or the churches who have provided it with more and more, as time passed, more and more the Government paying the cost.

This House voting the money and passirtg it over to the churches and the churches dividing it up among their various school boards. Nevertheless, it is here on the floor of this House that the money originates so far as the authority is concerned. It does not really originate in this Chamber at ~LL• It originates in peo~le's pockets.

People earn it and the Government gets a share of it and it comes into the coffers and in this Chamber, the House votes money to be paid over to the churches - the churches and it is to the churches that the money is paid and the churches divide it up among the various school boards and, I suppose, technically this petition ought to have gone to the - would it be the An~lican School Board or Integrated School Board and the Integrated Schoel Board would worry about it and become tormented about it and they would scratch their heads 3324

May 4st., 1970 Tape :no 750 Page 2 and possibly they would come to the Government and demand that more money be given to the churches so that different school boards would have a bigger share. No one can deny the justice of this request and I give it my most hearty support. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, may I say that I find myself in the same position today as the bon. member from St. Barbe North who just presented the petition on behalf of his constituents for improved classromm space in his area, and I would like to draw to the attention, Mr.

Speaker, if it is permissible, that seated in the members' gallery is a dele~ation from Bell Island who just left my office a few moments ago with a similar request. and I just finished explaining to them how the Education! system in Newfoundland works, and I think the Premier just summed it up and has verified what I had said to the delegation. I am very happy to support this petition .. Mr.

Speaker, and I hope that if the delegation from the people of Bell Island, in my own district, have to being a petition before this House for the same reason that my hon. friend just presented the petition, I hope he will give it his support. I am very happy to see the dele~ation here today in the House, Sit and I want to say that our meeting was very friendly and congenial and that I wish them the best of,Juck and I say, ''God bless them'· for fighting ,, for their rights. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by the hon. member from St. Barbe North.

Thereis no doubt that the district of St. Barbe North,in the area he speaks off,needs centralized school facilities and better school facilities, if the children of the St. Barbe North part of this Province are to have an ·equal opportunity to eome kind of a good education here in the Province. 3325

May 4th., 1970 Tape no. 750 Page 3 I do not agree with the hon. the Premier, when he says that he is not sure whether this House is the right place for the petition. I feel sure, }!r. Speaker, that this House is the right place for the petitioa, because no matter what the legal fiction is: the denominational authorities will only be able to construct schools if the Government of this Province or the taxpayers of this Province provide the money for it and this is where the money has to come from.

This business of the Government always attempting to get the praise when is the school constructed and finished, but avoid the blame when there are not sufficient funds for schools to be built,is a bit · ludricous. If the people of St. Barbe North are to have this centralized school that they wish to have, there is only one place they are going to be able to get the money from and that is from the Government through this hon. House. No matter, if afterwards,the money has to go to the Integrated School Board or committee or not •. So I feel sure, Mr.

Speaker, that this is the right place for that petition, and I notice that theret,are not any extra monies voted this year by this House for school construction. There are additional sums under the DREE program, which I do not believe cover the bon. minister's district. In any event, I am glad to support this petition.II think it is a good petition and it would be a step in the right direction. Also, Mr. Speaker, I would like to welcome the Bell Island delegation that the ~~nist;r of Social Services and Rehabili.tation mentioned. They, also, have their problem on Bell Island with the construction of a new R.

C. school to replace the one that was destroyed by fire. I am sure we hope that they will be successful in their endeavors in dealing with the school board, and we have no doubt that the hon. minister will attempt to help them all he can. We hope that he does. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to add my support to the petition. It is not my desire at this time to go into a debate on 3326

May 4th., 1970 Page 750 Page 4 this matter, but with reference to the petition from St. Barbe North, and alao the lovely ladies here today from Bell Island. I know this House has the greatest of sympathy with reference to schools, and I am sure that when the proper time comes, this House will fac~ up to its obligation and do all in its power to further the cause of Education in many of these districts. But, Mr.

Speaker, as everybody else has pointed out, this Government up to this date anyhow had not accepted responsibility and we can le~ally say, it is not our responsibility but the various school boards, but I feel the time is rapidly approaching, where with the great dew~nds and the small monies available to these boards that some means will have to be found, and I think we are beginning to think on the Federal level now for huge amounts of assistance for these school~ boards to assist them in meeting the great demands of our young people and up-to-date education.

I am very pleased, indeed, to support the petition and also with the hon. member for Bell Island to extend a very warm welcome to our beautiful ladies and lovely gentlemen in this House. I am very happy indeed, Sir, to see that they are sat in this Chamber today to hear this matter discussed. MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the questionl MR. ROWE (F.W.): Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to rise at this particular time, because a~ · the Minister of Education, I think it is assumed,passibly,by everyone that I am in support of anythinp, that would benfit for imppoved Education in Newfoundland.

It has to be taken for granted, that is my business, my duty, my responsibility, constitutionally responsibility. I would, however, in giving my general support to these two matters that we have heard about here today - again, I would remove the possibility of any misunderstanding arising from the statement made 3327

May 4th., 1970 Tape no. 750 Page 5 by the hon. member for St. John's West.

Yes, the;e could,very·well be a misunderstanding arising from it and it is simply this, and I am just voicing a constitutional matter here: that we all agree, of course that ~ore money is necessary for Education and this is one of the reasons thatwe have worked so hard to get Ottawa into this business of Education and it is a great triumph, a gr~at victory for us, a great victory for the Premier of Newfoundland who first voiced and fought for it at the Federal/Provincial conferences, a great victory for Newfoundland, because \-7e have hammered on this for this last twe?ty yea-rs and Ottawa has consistently avoided it until this present administration.

The misapprehension wh~eh might arise, Mr. Speaker, is this: that if this House were to vote today, $500 million for the building of schools in Newfoundland,this House,neither this House nor the Government can decide where or when or how those schools would be built. That is the constitutional right in the Education Act and in the terms of union which is part of the British North America Act;; that is the constitutional right of the churches of Newfoundland. MR. CROSBIE: Point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Han. members opposite keep us always getting~up on Point of Orders, Mr.

Speaker, and this is now becoming an invitation and if the Speaker is going to permit the bon. Minister of Education to debate the constitutional aspects of Education, · then we will have to insist on our right to debate it also • .... The bon. Minister is not speaking to this petition. I, therefore, ask your Honour to rule him out of order • . MR. S~ALLWOOB: Mr~.s,~aker, I would like •• MR. SPEAKER: These petitions, as a matter of privile~e, are being presented to t~e House anyway. It is a-- custom that has grown up, no other House ever had the system of a petition being presented.. Our 3328

May 4th., 1970 Tape no. 750 Page 6 rules say that these peti.tions may be presented, wpich has grown up by custom over the years. Five minutes is permitt~d for the person presenting a petition. Now·the custom is growing up where ·every.single person in the House has the right to support the petition for the obvious reason, but that turns into a debate in general, which has happened long before the bon. Minister of Education stoodup, and as I understand it, he was entering a door that had already been opened by one other speaker.

Will the bon. minister continue, but we must Dmember that nobody has the right to speak for more than five minutes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has already spoken to the petition. MR. CROSBIE: I spoke to the petition. The hon. minister is not speaking to the petition. MR. SPEAKER: If the bon. member w:f.shes to ask a question by way of explanation of the person speaking, I still feel that it would not be the best thing to do, but be will have the right to do it, if the bon. member resumes his seat and he could ask him any question he wishes. !'ffi· ROWE (F.t-1.): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will simply content myself by repeating again the last·-sentence which I was making at the time the bon. member for St. John's West interrunted me. If this House were to vote today $500 million for the building of schools, neither this House nor the Government could decide where, when or how those schoob t.7ould be built.

It is the constitutional right of the churches whether they are represent~ by a single board, by a single educational committee as is the case with the Roman Catholic Church and the Pentecostal Church or by an Integrated Committee as is the case with the Anglican, United and Salvation Army churches. It is their constitutional right, under our legislation passed in this House, only repassed last year, first passed in 1876, passed again last year, and contained in every Education Act since 1876 and that right is crystalized in the terms of 3329

May 4th., 1970 , Tape no. 759 Page 7 union and is part of the British North America Act. In other words it is part of the constitution of Canada that the churches decide, when, where and how the schools will be built. This is not to evade responsibility, Mr. Speaker. It is not to disclaim responsibility. It is to ennunicate once more a principle ~-.wliich a lot of hon. gentlemen 1 apparently, on the other side of the House are not prepared or do not like to have to accept. It is there. I did not make it. It is there. as HR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, r the former board chairman, I have great sympathy with the gentlemen and ladies who are present here today and who have presented these petitions, and I have great pleasure in supporting them. The petition that was presented by the hon. the member for St. Barbe North and the ladies whose attendance here is brought on by their desire to improve the situation on Bell Island. Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to review all the reasons why these petitions should be supported other than to say that I do support them, but I must take isaoe with the statement just made by the hon. Xinister of Education.

As I read the terms of Union, that statement is not correct. Under the Terms of Union of Newfoundland with Canada, monies voted by this House for Education must be distributed on a non-discriminatory basis~ There is nothing in Term (17) that I can find which says that it is the exclusive and soie prerogative :.of the Inte~rated Committees or the Denominational Educational Committees to decide when , where and how schools are to be built. This is a convenient misapprehension that seems to be fostered from time to time in this hon. House. It is not correct, Hr. Speaker.

As far as Education is concerned, the buck stops right here in this House and nowhere else. We are given the sole and exclusive responsibiity to 33.30

May 4th., 1970 Tape no. 750 Pare B provide funds for improvin~ and maintaininp, our Educational services in this Province, and Mr.

Speaker, as bon. members who havespoken, whilst we support this petition and support it very much indeed, when we look at the Estimates and when we see the statement of the Integrated Denominational Committee to the effect that unless there was an increase in vote this year for capital account, for elementary and primary schools, that no new schools could be built and then we look at the Estimates and we see $4.3 million precisely the same that was voted last year, then I say that our sense of priorities is all"wrong, that they are all out of whack, and I do not believe, Mr.

Speaker, that we are going to be able to find or this House is going to find or this Government is going to bring to this House a vote for sufficient funds to meet even the barest minimum or requirements for school accommodation this year. Mr. Speaker, if these hon. gentlemen and our visitors continue to sit in this House this afternoon- there is a debate on a Bill presently in progress that is very closely allied to their problems and which, in my opinion, will indicate very clearly where this Province is going, insofar as school construction.

I do not like the way it is heading. 1 think it is headed on a very disastrous course, and we cannot expect our 3331

;::-.~·:77. May r~, 1970, Tape 751, Page 1 apb MR. HICK~IAN: People to sit back for year and years and years and say, your priorities are different from ours. I do support these petitions. MR. SPEAKER: I think we have gone just about as far as we should on this side issue altogether. I was possibly very much amiss when I allowed the matter to be introduced right at the beginning. Having allowed it then we had to hear two or three members, which is the danger on every single occasion •. ;Once you open the door the slightest little bit we can go on.

Every bon. member knows right n0\-1 that .the issue before the Chair is not the petition presented by the bon. member for St. Barbe North. If those in favour of the motion that is made by the hon. member for St. Barbe North re:-· this petition please say" aye," contrary" hay," carried. FURTHER PRESENTATION OF PETITIONS: PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: NOTICE OF MOTION: ANSlVERS TO QUESTIONS : HON. J.R.SHALLWOOD (Premier): Mr. Speaker, question no. 457, on the Order Paper of April 17, in the name of the bon. the member for St. John's Centre. The answer to the first

part is as follows; power distribution district of west Newfoundland $85,000. twenty years. Town Council of Baie Verte $195,000. forty years. Town Council of Baie Verte $314,000. (I am rounding out the figures) forty years. Town Council of Bay Roberts $65,000. twenty ·years. Town Council of Bishop's Falls, $315,000. forty years. Town Council of Botwood $45,000. twenty vears. Town Council of Burin $176,000. forty years. Town . . ~ouncil of Channel - Port aux Basques $550,000. forty years. Local imrpovement district of Dark Cove $39,000. forty years. Town Council of Deer Lake $34,000. thirty years.

Town Council of Dunville $270,000. forty -.. years. Town Council of Gander $37~,000. forty years. Town Council of Grand Falls $742,000. forty years. Town Council of Happv Valley $585,000. forty years. Town Council of Barbour Breton $270,000. forty years. Town Council of Harbour Grace $90,000. forty years •. Town Council of Jerseyside $36,000. twenty vears. Town Council of Lewisporte $220,000. fifteen years. Town Council of Mount Pearl $108,000. tweaty years. Town Council of Wabana $40,000. twenty years. Town Council of 3332

~y:-~ 1970, Tape 751 1 Page 2 -- apb Wesleyville $203,000. forty yeara. Town Council of Windsor $120,000. twenty­ five years. Power distribution district of South Newfoundland $1,259,000. twenty years. Power distribution district of Labrador $66,000. twenty years. Power distribution district of West Newfoundland $303,000. twenty years. Power distribution, district of West Newfoundland $40,000. twenty years. Power distribution, district of West Newfoundland $45,000. twenty years. Power distribution, district of North-east Newfoundland $360 1 000. twenty years.

Power distribution 1 ,district of North-east Newfoundland $47,000. twenty years. Power distribution, district of North-east Newfoundland $22,000. twenty years. Power distribution, district of North-east Newfoundland $99,000. twenty years. Town Council of Badger $578,000. forty years. Town Council of Baie Verte $245,000. forty years. Town Council of Burgeo $750,000. forty years. Local improvement district of Centreville $100,000. forty years. Town Council of Channel-Port aux Basques $300,000. twenty years. City of Corner Brook $250,000. twenty years. Local improvement district of Dark Cove $42,000. forty years.

Local improvement district of Flowers Cove $167,000. forty years. Town Council of Gander $190,000. forty years. Town Council of Grand Bank $200,000. twenty years. Town Council of Winterton $600,000. forty years. Rural District Council of Badger's Quay, Valleyfield. Poole's Island. $240 1 000. forty years. Local improvement district of Buchans $65,000. twenty years. Town Council of Burin $110 1 000. forty years. Town Council of Carbonear $96 1 000. forty years. Town Council of Channel -Port aux Basques $267.000. five years. Town Council of Deer Lake $65,000. twenty years.

Town Council of Fortune $67,000. twenty years. Town Council of Gander $334,000. forty years. Town Council of Happy Valley $500,000. forty years. Town Council of Glovertown $750,000. forty years. Town Council of Harbour Breton $170,000. forty year~. Town Council of Stephenville Crossing $60,000. twenty years. Power distribution, district of Labrador $250,000. twenty years. Power distribution, district of North-east Newfoundland $74,000. twenty years. Power distribution district of South Newfoundland $176,000. twenty years. Power idstribution, district of South Newfoundland $695,000. twenty years.

Power distribution, district of West Newfoundland $255,000. twenty years. 3 3 3 3

May 4, 1970, Tape 751, Page 3 -- apb h loans run from six and three The rates of interest charged for t ese ' quarters per cent to seven an d One quarter per cent up to eight and one-·.quarter Which is the highest rate charged. The total of it is not given per cent, column and it runs to some figure between here, but I ran quickly through the lli loans made by the Newfoundland Municipal Financing $14 million and $15 mi on Vari ous town councils and power distribution districts throughout Corporation to the Province. These are two amounts here. I have read both of them.

As at Decem~er 31, 1968 and December 31, 1969: One other anslo~er: 494 On t he Order Paper of April 30, Question No. , in the name of the bon. member for StJohn's West: Section (1): The. first

part is "yes". The second

part is 6,000 sq. ft. and the third

part is;"not yet determined". These are the answers to the first

section of the question·. f h ti · The answer to the second

part is; The second part o t e ques on. 1 i The answer to the first part of

Section October 1, 1969. I wi 1 repeat t. (1) is "Yes", the answer to the second

part is 6,000 sq. ft and the answer to the third

part is not yet determined. MR ROWE: Mr. Speaker I have the answer to Question No.353, on the Order Paper of April 10, asked by the bon. member for Fortune Bay: "What was the total amount of the government's contribution to the highschool for indians at North West River, in Labrador?" The answer is that the total cost was $842,000, and the Newfoundland Government's share of that was $488,280. The Federal Government's share was $353, 620. I have not added these up. These figures were given me by our officials. I assume that those two figures will add up to $842,000~ total cost.

The second question: "What is the estimated total cost to the Government toward the building of the new school and dormitory for the Grenfell Mission at North West River, Labrador?" The answer, to avoid misunderstanding 1 will say that this is not the indian school referred to in the first one. I know my bon. friend knows that, but for the benefit of the public. This is another school, on the other side of the river, in the Settlement of North West River itself, as distinct from the indian settlement on the south aide of the river.

The estimated total cost of the school, that school at the Grenfell Mission, is $701.490. That was a new school. 1 do not have the answer in 3334

May 4, 1970 Tape 751, Page 4 apb. regard to the dormitory because that does not come under the Department of Education in any case, it comes under the Department of Public Welfare, the dormitory itself. And I am quite sure that any question concerning that, that department will be happy to answer.

The third question is: "How much did the Central Government contribute to each of these buildings?" Well, to the indian school the Federal Government, as I said a moment ago, contributed $353,620, to the North West River School the Federal Government have contributed nothing as yet but I believe there is an estimate of appropriation in aid in our estimates this year, part of which I think would apply to that. No. 4, "How many children are served each year by each of these buildings?" The answer is that the indian school has, according to our records in the department, now 165 children in it.

My recollection is and I opened that school, I think two years ago, and my recollection is that ·all of these are indian children. The hon. }linister of Labrador Affairs nods in confirmation of that. These are all indian children. It is owned, incidentally, by the Roman Catholic School Board. All the indians in Labrador are belonging to the Roman Catholic Church, all the indians in our two indian settlements. It is 165. In the North West River school, I do not know the answer. There are 208 children. You see that school is not finished.

I do not know how many it will be taking in, because it is planned to take in more children from the coast than is now the case. Right now there are 208. children, most of whom are local children but some of whom ' - come from the coast and are boarded in North West River. My understanding is, and this is not a confirmed figure but-I believe they hope to bring in an additional seventy-five children and board them; from the coast. So, that being so, the number of children we might estimate for that school when it does go in operation would.probably be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 280 or so.

ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, I am not a reader of the "Adver.tiaet~ issued at Grand Falls, but my attention has been called to an item in that paper, of date April 25, which I think unfairly criticizes Your Honour. 3335

--.J -., ..... ..., --r- ._, .. , Gi'U The sentence is in an

article entitled "Twixt you and Me, '1 and the paragraph reads as follows: "We thought the questions asked by the members on the Opposition side of the House were sound an·d logical," he is referring to the question of the Shaheen group who were here the week before. "And we feel that in every instance the answers could have been precise and concise with no need to hide behind Law (86)." Then the following paragraph appears: "The only person in the House of Assembly who could have helped get these answers which were sought after, was His Honour the Speaker.

But for some reason,he chose to let this Shaheen party be as evasive as they wanted to be." Now Your Honour, we all know that Your Honour was in the Chair at that time with the witnesses that were giving answers to questions. They were not witnesses that had been summoned. These gentlemen were under no obligations to answer any questions, as the House knows. It would have been highly improper for Your Honour to have interfered and required them to answer any questions. I feel quite sure that the item in the paper which I am passing the Clerk was not done maliciously.

I think it was done in ignorance of the true position, but I think now that it has been called to the attention of the pap~r in question, that that paper will be glad to withdraw the reference it made. MR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER.: Before we get to the Orders of the Day, I have a question for Before this matter is concluded, if the bon. member does not mind. I juat want to say this, if the Speaker is as defenseless here in the House as he outside of course, he cannot speak in his own behalf, one way or the other, either in a public statement neither can he defend himself actually in the House.

This is the first time that I ha!e seen an instance of this kind take place where the integrity and the honesty of the Speaker of this Legislature has been brought into question in the twenty years of which I have had any knowledge, either reading or sitting here as a member of this House. It has been done, and 3336

ua.y .. "".u • .L~'v .a.ape J:J~ .t"K.- ~ MR. SPEAKER: and are done in my opinion, of course, most unfairly. But as I say the Speaker's is completely defenceless and it is one of these instances where a breach of privilege would be raised. I said the other day, that a breach of privilege ought rarely to come to the House. I say the same thing today. But it is one of these things, where the Law provides most conclusively for a reflection upon the integrity and the character of the speaker to be dealt with, I am not asking • I do not want it to be dealt with.

It is also a reflection on the whole House, because obviously, if the members of this House, or any other house, they feel that the Speaker is a person who should not be in the Chair, that his conduct and his behaviour is not as it should be with regard to his imparticality, his honesty and fair play, then it is a reflection on the whole House to say, that they have not the ability to either stand up for him, or put him where he should be, which is altogether outside.

So they have two remedies, one to support him, or the other -.: :.one, use the Law as it is, to put him where he should be 0, and that is outside the Chamber altogether. And I feel very strongly about this, and if it is something that is allowed to go on completely, it brings the House itself into disrepute. Yes, the bon. gentleman. MR. MURPHY: May I speak on this, Mr. Speaker. I am at a lose to understand just what position we are in as such.

I know the integrity of the House is at stake, and the reason I did not stand before, because I thought that when the Minis~er read the statement, I thought it would be treated in some manner, is there any other way that t~ just bring it to the attention of the House and that we regret that this action, or is there any formal way this could be treated. I mean, I feel much in the same position that the integrity of the Speaker has been inpuned~ if you like. and this is a reflection on the whole House.

And if it is the feeling I think here, that we agree with the article. then there is only one thing we can do, is just ask the Speaker to perhaps.~£ he cannot. then we will get someone else who can. I think basically this is what it amounts to, and I mean, I !eel the Speaker is in a very unenviable position he is there, and unfortunate at that time, I use the word unfortunate in a sense, the whole proceedings were exposed and people 3327

May 4th. 1970 Tape 1':>2 l'K - 2 MR. MURPHY: were concentrating, with perhaps minds made up on one thing or another, and figured that the Speaker could take action which the rules of the House did not permit him to do so. Basically, as I say what action as the Leader of the Opposition I can_ take, I must agree with the reference of the bon. Minister of Justice to the thing, I think we deeply regret it, and as he said the

article should be taken back more or less. I am in perfect accord with the suggestion that was made by the Minister of Justice MR. SMALLIVOOD: Mr. Speaker, If I may, It has very rarely happened in our history, it has happened before, but it has rarely happened that an attack has been made in_.print on Mr. Speaker. The Hous could I believe order the arrest of the writer, have .. him arresred and brought to the bar of the House. Very rarely is an attack made on Mr. Speaker in print, very rarely, this is I think the first_time since the restoration of self-government to our tountry~ to Newfoundland.

The first time in twenty-one years, this has happened. Now, Sir, I have not for one moment any thought that the author of this piece in question was malicious, I think he wrote innocently, I am quite sure of it, He probably does not know the enormity of what he was doing. I am sure he did not understand he was laying himself open to a pretty serious action on the part of this House, an action that the House has not taken for a long time. it can always take. he did not understand that. And to him Your Honour was just another politican.

Here again, but of course while that is true of every . politican in this House, it is not true of Your Honour or whoever occupies the Chair. Mr. Speaker is not liable to attack, except for some grievoawhere he deserves attack. And if he deserves attack, it is not .... an attack from outside that will be effective, it is an attack from inside a simple motion to remove the Speaker from his office would be the punishment of an offence serious enough to warrant that punishment. This would be the punishment.

Now I think the Grand Falls Advertiser is a fine newspaper, well edited, well produced. has not in the lest any thought of being offensive to consciously and deliberately offensive to the Speaker. And I think Mr. Speaker if this incident is properly reported, that paper will follow the customary journalist ethetics and express its regret. And it think that would be the end of it, and I think it might be then a long time before on 3338

MR. S}~LWOOD: radio, or television or in the press, the printer ~ress another attack, another unjustifable attack, unwarranted attack is made pn the Chair of this House which comands the respect of all hon. members. No hon. member likes to have a ruling from the Chair that is against him, every hon. member likes tq have a ruling that is in favour of his position.

But the momentary pleasure, the momentary anger is very momentary indeed, very transitory and Your Honour enjoys the respect of this House, I believe, every hon. member of this House has nothing but respect for Your Honour, and the high position that Your Honour occupies. MR. JOHN C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have not read this article, I do not know a third what the bon. Minister of Justice has read. I think, the hon • . the Premier says it is very rarely has an attack being made on Mr. Speaker in print. Mr.

Speaker, it is very rarely that this House is televised, and the debate in question over two days was televised. If there was any fault arising out of thesituation. it lies just as much with this House because the order of procedure for those two days was confusing in any event. The order of questioning was confusing, and it is very easy to see why anybody watching the proceedings of this House on T.V. could get confused, as to what the position was in the House, and what the Speaker's powers were. So I think Mr.

Speaker that much too much can be made of what the writer said in his column there. and it was very lightly confused as to what confusion between Your position and that of a judge, when a case is on in court. But. Mr. Speaker, as for myself there has been several breaches of privilege brought before this House in this session, and I do not like, and I would not support any imputation that if anybody outside this House criticizes the dignity of the House at all, that their arrest might be ordered.

It is certain very rare that anyone's arrest has been ordered in this century anyway for a breach of a privilege of this House, and it would have to be an extremely heinous event before I would lend any support for the arrest of anybody in bringing them before the House.

In this particular instance, I think, the writer is probably being confused by the procedure used during the two days of questioning the Shaheen group, and I have rio doubt that the writer would correct his misimpression, but it is easy to see how that impression arose, and how anyone not used to the procedure in this House, would be confused by what they saw during those 3339

MR. CROSBIE: two days. MR. F. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I think I would like to make a comment on this, a matter raised by the bon. Minister of Justice. As Your Honour knows this paper in question is published in my district, and indeed the writer of that

article is a constituent of mine, but I should say in fairness he is not a support of mine, at least he has been ve~ critical of me publicly, and he is a supporter of another group in the House. But I want to go on record as saying this, }fr. Speaker, that I am quite sure, I do not know this gentleman intimatley at all, but I am quite sure that he wrote this not understanding or appreciating the seriousness of doing a thing of that kind, and therefore I would go along entireiy agrieyed, not for any political reason obviously, but I would entirely agree with the point made by the hon. Premier and I think the bon.

Leader of the Opposition that in this particular case, that no further action be taken, other than to expect the normal courtesy that would follow this. But I also do say, Mr. Speaker, that I think, we should take advantage of this opportunity to point out to the public the seriousness, and no matter what anybody might say, the fact of the matter is that a criticism or any impuning of a speaker in any part of a democratic '"orld is regarded as a very, very serious offence .. And in some as Your Honour knows,in some jurisdictions he has been treated very severely. MR. HAROLD COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I had a question for the Minister of Justine, now that the wage demands of the Newfoundland Constabulary and the Firefighters of St. John'~ has been met from the Provincial Treasury, I would like for the minsiter to indicate to the House, if the Government has any plans for extending the jurisdiction of the responsibility of the Newfoundland Constabulary to include another municipalities. And if not, are there any plans to provide financial assistance to the municipalities who might_have to hire their own police force, and firefighting force? MR. L. R. CURTIS: I have considered, Mr.

Speaker, for some time the possibility of extending the St. John's police force to Grand Falls and perh~ps Corner Brook, but my investigation has satisfied me so far that it will cost as much more than it is costing us now. It is the amount that ve pay for the R.C.M.P. outside St. John's is much more than we pay for 3340

~tay 4th. 1970 Tape 752 PK- 5 MR. CURTIS: police there. But, they supply a lot of essentials that we have not got, they supply cars, they supply boats, they supply planes, and they operate on a basis under which we could not afford. And for the moment, I would not suggest any change. MR. COLL·INS: Mr. Speaker, one supplementary question, notwithstanding what the minister has said, are there any plans to provide financial assistance to the mumicipalities who are r~quired to hire their own police force and to provide their own firefighting force? MR. CURTIS: I am afraid that is a question, Mr.

Speaker, which I would ' want to have some notice to it, to have a change to consider it. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister of Fisheries a question, or Acting Minister of Fisheries, has the bon. minister or any member of the Government received any representation from the fishermen and ship owners of Bonavista North who proscuted the Labrador fishery last year unsuccessfully, have there been any recent representations received from them as to _the possibility of financial assistance, so that they can presue the fishery again this year?

And if so, what has been the Government's decision? RON. E. WINSOR: (MINISTER OF LABRADOR AFFAIRS) Mr. Speaker, I will take note of the question, if the bon. member would care to put it on the · Order Paper, I will endeavour to get what information I can. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of a Bill,

An Act To Consolidate And Amend The Law Relating ~o The Raising Of'Local Taxes Bor Schools. MR. H.R.V. EARLE: This debate was adjourned by a member who is not present here this afternoon, and it is not fair for us to go on. MR. CROSBIE: The member for Humber East is concluded anyway, Mr. Speaker. ~m. EARLE: On this particular Bill No. 19, Mr. Speaker, I think all members\ of this House will agree with the princ£ple of this Bill, 3341

May 4th, 1970 Tape /)J .JJ."l - .L HR. EARLE: one or two minor matters in it which we can deal with in committee which are ., not serious. I would just like to refer to the matter of notification of districts and areas where they have decided to come under this local school tax. In my experience there was always a certain amount of dissatisfaction in different areas because a number of people always claim that they were not aware of what was going on. I note that in this Bill there is only the same provision for notifying them by the public Gazette and in the local newspaper.

I think that when we get to that stage in the Bill to discuss it that further means of publicity should be given so as to avoid this argument which arises constantly. A point later in the Bill where sums of money collected under this tax can be authorized to be used for different purposes, I think is a good one and certainly should free the school boards to spend the money in perhaps areas where it is more advantageous if they should happen through some good fortune to accumulate a bit of a surplus. I think this

section of the Bill would have all of our approval. Generally speaking on the principle of taxation, the commission on education and youth, I have a lot to say about this and I am sure all members of the House have read their reports pretty thoroughly, but there is altogether something like sixty-four pages on the subject of school financing and the. financing of education in Newfoundland. They made some definite recommendations in this report particularily along the lines of the foundation program which is prevalent in other Provinces.

Their recommendations as contained on page 166 of the second part of this report, recommendation 132 says, "We recommend that ' a real property tax be levied at a uniform rate on equalized assessments throughout the Province.

The levy should be collected by the Province and applied to the cost of the foundation program, of course, this is assuming that a foundation program might be set up. '1 There are several pages of arguments why a foundation program should he set up in this Province and actually at one point in their recommendations they come to the conclusion that question of property taxes in not altogether desireable. On page 136, the question that therefore arises··is whether the property tax is a particular appropriate source of revenue for financing a 3342

MR. EARLE: education will undouhtly rise at a very,very steep rate.Therefore the whole idea of taxation to pay for education lvill invariably have ~o he brought into some sort of a systematic form. The piece-meal way in which we are going at it now whereby certain areas can apply ~o become local tax areas and so on,it seems to me to be extremely unfair to some of those areas that cannot afford to follow that pattern.

There- fore it would seem that these areas must be gi':'en a chance to enter into the financing of education in their own areas to the extent of the ability that they can according to the circumstances in these areas. Now you might say that they are already doing it, that through the churches and so on they are contributing very heavily.

This is undoubtly true but it is terribly, to my way of thinking, unfair and unsystematic.and because we are tied to it by history and by the constitution, I do not think bars us from possible negotition particularily in the frightening circumstances which are evident through the increasing cost of education. For our own salvation as a Province and for the salvation of education as a system there ~-1ill have to be, undoubtly there ~"ill have to be a great getting together, a great joint effort and some of the things which we have held to very dearly in the past must necessarily have to go out the door. MR.

ROWE: Would you mind repeating that last item, I did not hear that last statement he made I was trying to follow him. MR. EARLE: The last few words I said, is that all. MR. ROl-1E: Yes. MR. EARLE: Yes, I said some of ~.he things which we have been tied to historically and which I suppose are also great sentimental value, will have to invariably go out the door. The necessity of revising the system of financing education will undoubtly bring about the necessity of a more modern approach to it.

No; • we cannot claim I do not think in all justification that while we stand alone in this Province we are completely right, the other nine Provinces of Canada have differing and varying systems. They are gone into in great detail in this report. Perhaps some of the systems or part of the systems could be adjusted to Newfoundland but certainly we will have to make adjustments. 3344

MR. F.ARLF.: I think when the Government brought in the "abolitfon of school fees this, although it was not intended as such, had quite a depressinp. influence upon the public mind at that time that the Government was assuming a great cost of education, a great portion of the cost, and that was so, of course, through assuming the abolition of school fees but it seemed to go too far in the public mind.

There seemed to be a feeling that well this was a step whereby the Government would be assuming the total cost of education and I think areas that were ready to investigate the possibility of the coming school tax areas hesitated at that time and held off because they thought the systemMas changing and possibly they would not be called upon to take the local responsibility which some other areas '"ere assuming.

Well, I felt that this was a backward step at the time,that perhaps it was not explained carefully enough to the people and the result was, I think, to delay school taxation for several years in the many, many areas of the country.

On top of that, of course, there was another great iniquity which grew up immediately out of that and that was the fact that although school fees were abolished in all the elementary and high school grades the denominations and the school boards found themselves in such strikes that they immediately had to replace a lot of this by so called assessments. ihey raised money for capital purposes through what was known as assessments.

Here again in the public mind and particularily in the parents mind call it what you will, an assessment or a school fee, it is all money out of their pockets, assessments were most certainly considered by most parents the same thing as school fees. It was not long after the abolition of school fees that many hoards found that they were in such straitened circumstances that the assessments themselves were greater than the original fees so the parents shrugged their shoulders and said, ..

"what is all this about, we are supposed to be getting away with the abolition of school fees yet here we are paying assessments which amount to the same thing or more." So I do not think a great deal was accomplished there. It did take a tremendous burden of the school boards in so far as particularily many school boards had previously . not been 3345

MR. EARLE: collcctinr. one hunclrc>d per-cent of thtdr Rchool fci'R in fnct nornt' of thl'm wc-rl" down to as low ns forty por-ct•nl of the school ft•es lwJnr, colleC"ted.nnd hy the Government taking over the responsibility at least the Board was assured of the collection of one hundred per-cent of the school fees which was an automatic boost to them. But all of these steps as good as they were and the warrant commission or the commission on education and youth thus stressed in its report that the abolition of school fees is a desireable and was a desireable step.

All of this put together did not by any means solve the problem and . this Act today of setting up school tax areas and allowing a little more freedom to do so perhaps is in itself not going to solve the whole question because the cost of education is expanding at such a terrifying rate. Now we have all heard with a great deal of satisfaction that the DREE program will plow in some money for the construction of schools. This is excellent. We are all very happy to hear it. !:am rather afraid that some of the areas which do not get the advantage of this DREE program may feel very much left out in the cold.

We may find areas which have been designated to be helped by DREE will themselves be able to construct very fine.schools, larger schools and perhaps much better equipped schools but there still is going to be a hugh

section of the Province that can- not afford to keep up to this trend and I think the citizens of those areas are going to feel extremely neglected and extremely dissatisfied. This all - .... 3346

this all brings back to the point with which I started that the only logical solution in my opinion which there seems to be in all this terrifying problem is suggested in sixty-four pages of the commission's report on Education and Youth. And while in a sense I am wandering away from the discussion on school taxation, this is so important that 1 feel the Department of Education in its reorganized form should study very very closely indeed and should have itssstafflconcentrate on that

section of the commission's report which in my opinion is the only possible solution to the tremendous demands of education which we are bound to have from hereon. MR.IIICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, if I may have a few words in support of this Bill. which I understand has been brought in at the request of the school tax, association of school tax authorities and is basically a consolidation of the school tax act and amendments that we have had in this House in the past. are Mr. Speaker, there are few matters that/clos~ly allied and arise out of the purpose of this Act.

Obviously if you pass the school tax act you pass it with the intention of conferring on various abthorities the right to impose taxes for the purpose of raising funds to build schools. Now, Mr. Speaker, no matter how we look at it and no matter what the constitutional niceties are the simple fact of the matter is that we are faced in this Province right now with an absolute crisis in so far as the construction of new schools in Newfoundland is concerned.

The inte~rated education committee has notified school districts tha~ unless, this is before this year's budget was brought down, that unless the Provincial Government substantially increased the capital grant no new school construction projects can be initiated this year. And one can safely assume that the same applies to the other two denominational authorities who are involved in education in Newfoundland at this time. The simple fact Mr.

Speaker, is this, that over the past few years the various denominational authorities who have been charged with the responsibility of spending the capital grants th•t have been approved_ or brought to this House by Government have been obliged to pledge and 3347

mortgage that money for the foreseeable future. And the estimates of the Department of Education that are presently before this Houae indicates that $4.3 million . will be voted again this year for the construction of schools throughout the Province. The actual amount for the construction school building construction is $4.350 million. That Mr. Speaker, is the same, that is the figure that was referred to by the integrated education committee and they said unless there was an increase this year, a substantial increase, no new school construction would be possible in this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that leads us as I see to a question of priorities. It is a word that apparently is not in vogue in certain .circles in this Province. But I do not care what you call it whether you use the word priorities or whether you say the Government has a responsibility, a sacred responsibility to decide where the money must be first spent and where the greatest need is at this time. I do not believe there is any social service that is so much in need of priority treatment at this time as is education and in particular in the field of school construction. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I cannot and will not accept the suggestion that the department of Education or that the hon. minister of Eduaation does not know where schools are going to built or why. I placed a question on the Order Paper a few weeks ago concerning the promised construction of a school in Fogo, and I was chided most severely by the hon. the minister of Education when he answered the question. He thou8ht that as a former school board chairman, I shou~d know that the department of Education had nothing to do with the construction of schools, or when or where or how they will be built. And Mr.

Speaker, that has nothing to do with the constitution, it has nothing to do with the Term 17 I think it is, of the Terms of Union of Newfoundland with Canada. All that ~erm says that all schools shall receive their share of such funds in accordance with the scales determined on &.nondiscriminatory basis from time to time by the Legislature for all schools then being conducted under the authority of the Legislature , and it also makes the same non-discriminatory provision 3348

for oolleges. Now Mr. Speaker that is a far cry from saying that the Department of Education has no responsibility for the construction of schools. Surely this Legislature and surely Government is not going to sit back and allow and permit the children of this Province to be deprived of adequate accommodation and then say we cannot do anything about it we have nothing to do with this, this is the responsibility of the Denominational Edo~a~~onal Council. That is absolute unadulterated nonsense.

The sole and exclusive responsibility for providing adequate accommodation for providing adequate curriculum, for providing adequate teachers salaries, fo.r providing adequate maintenance grants rests Tight in this House and nowhere else. You cannot run away from that responsibility Mr. Speaker, and it is grossly unfair and not in accordance with the facts to say that this iacthe responsibility of the de~ominational educational council.

The denominational educational council as I 'understand it was set up to act in an advisory aapacity to protect certain rights of denominations and churches who have made a great contribution to education in Newfoundland over the past 200 years. The reason why the churches became involved in education as everyone knows is historic. It is a simple fact that a couple of hundred years ~go in most of our isolated areas in Newfoundland at least, probably everywhere, isolated and unisolated, if there was such a thing as an unisolated area then.

The clergyman was the leading educationalist in that community, and he took it upon himself and through the churches to start to provide a semblance of instruction for Newfoundland students of that day. Arld year by year the duty and task of the churches in Newfoundland grew, but Mr. Speaker, in 1970 we cannot, whilst we have to be very grateful to these leaders in education over the past 200 years. We cannot bury our heads in the sand now, and say that someone other than the Government of this Province is responsible for education in Newfoundland. That is not correct, and Mr.

Speaker, this crisis that we are now facing is a crisis that ·can get completely out of hand is a crisis that our children will be paying for for quite some time to come, We hear Mr. Speaker all sorts of 3349 ,·

talk about priorities and where money should be spent and that you cannot· have schools, you cannot have welfare, you cannot have health services unless and until you first provide the industrial base that will sustain it. So what are we going to do Mr. Speaker.

Are we going to look, the students of Newfoundland who happen to have been born in the fifties and in the sixties, and in the seventies, and say to these students it is your touch luck that you happen to have been born during this part of the twentieth aentury, because our great emphasis in the sixties and the seventies and may be in the eighties, will be providing a firm industrial base. You will .not be able to get theeducational training, you will not be able to get the exposure to education or the school accommodation that other North Americans get because our priority, our first is industrial development.

That is not very con~oling.~r • . Spe~ker,• to a grade X or a grade Xl boy in Port au Choix this year. In fact he is not going to accept that standard, he is not going to accept that philosophy if it is a philosophy of hit and miss priorities. Mr.

Speaker, if the Warren Commission report is read carefully, if the report of the Economic Council of Canada is read carefully, and if we are looking at the greatest return, if we want to forget emotions, if we want to forget our social obligations, if we simply want to look at it and say, what will yield the greatest return in dollars;and cents tn this Province, obviously,it is education. The development of a complete and full educational programme in the Province of Newfoundland will yield more benefit to Newfoundlanders than the oil refinery that may or may not go at Come by Chance.

The development of a sound found~tion programme that is not new, everyc•~ther province, every state of the union discovered it years and years ago and have implemented it there is nothing new about that. The implementation of it whether you call it a foundation or a basic system or whatever you want to call_it, the implementation of a system of education that will say to the boy in Frenchman's 3350

Cove you are going to be discriminated against because of your place of birth. And they are, make no mistake about tt. The gap is just as wide today Mr. Speaker, as it ever was. The facilities have improved but the gap has not . been closed. And Mr. ·speaker, there is no point in sitting back and saying give us a chance to lay a great industrial base then Mr. Speaker, you will get your foundation programme. Then you will have a chance an equal chance with the boy in Corner Brook or Grand Falls or St. John's or Labrador City. That time will be too late Mr. Speaker, and this is, in education there is no tomorrow.

There is no second chance you cannot postpone that, you cannot say to somebody who is ~ twelve or thirteen or fourteen years of age wait for a few years because he or she cannot wait. Their day has passed and this is why parents, and students, particularly students who fall almost in the category of drop-outs have become very very angry and justifiably so with the downgrading or the place on the totem pole,for want of a.better word, for -education in this Province. And Mr.

Speaker, when I hear this talk of Government, the Department of Education has no constitutional right to decide where schools are going to be b"uilt • Now Mr. Speaker, again if I refer back to this question on Fogo. In a recent issue of a newspaper that is put out on Fogo Island by the Rev. Ivan S. Jesperson, who i_s a very prominent theological personage on Fogo Island and who also is very concerned and is giving great leadership in the development, the social development of Fogo Island. He apparently does not agree with the hon. the minister of Education.

He does not agree that the sole and exclusive responsibility rests other than with Government. He draws attention to the fact that in the Newfoundland Government Bulletin there was an announcement that construction and presumably that announcement that comes from . the, emanates from the bulletin is an announcement of Government policy. There is an an11ouncement that construction is to begin in the spring on a new school in Fogo. And this prompted the Rev. ~entleman to publish 3351

an open letter to the Hon. the Premier • . And that letter says as· follows: "The above issue of the Newfoundland Government Bulletin states,Sir,that our Fogo Island High School, (quote) construction is to begin in the spring. which Spring Mr. Smallwood? Is the bulletin merely a kettle of propaganda to keep up the people's hope in a faltering government? Or is it a statement of the fact? If it is the former please omit me from your mailing list. If it is the latter put some money in the budget for capital construction of schools so we can get on with the job, and make sure Fogo Island gets some.

Remember, (quote) construction will begin in the spring. I want you to know that Fogo Island has a school population of 1,356 students of these, 673, six hundred and seventy-three must use outdoor toilet facilities, and 897 have no hygenic facilities to wash their hands. More than one thousand cannot quench their thirst at school, three hundred and eighty-four must use the public higway for a playground, two hundred and sixteen are in classrooms with more than forty-two other students, and one hundred and thirty-nine are in classrooms with five grades taught by one teacher. Fogo Island people Mr.

Smallwood have raised $20,000 in the last ye•r, mqney which was hard-earned,/~g~ly needed but have earmarked it for our new school. How much can you raise1 Yours very truly. Rev. I. Jesperson. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the sort of thing that, that is the sort of letter that one would expect to read or to find around the turn of the century in Newfoundland. But this Mr. Speaker, happens to be Newfoundland-in I9qo. Now, Mr. Speaker, when we look .at this year's estimates and we find that the amount to be voted for school:.construction in Newfoundland is precisely the ~ame as it was last year.

And when we read together with that the statement of the integrated education committee that unless there is a substantial increase there will be no new school construction in Newfoundland this year. Then Mr. Speaker, I say, what happens to the 1356 students in Fogo : Now, Mr.Speaker, 3352

May 4, 1970 Tape 11755 Page 1 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, in the Hudget Speech reference was made to the fact that there would be an increase in the amount spent on school . construction in Newfoundland this year, thanks to DREE. And that Mr. Speaker, is quite correct. It is ~rue that this year in Newfoundland, . the F~deral Government will spend $5,642,000 on school construction, and that the Government of Newfoundland would somehow have to borrow $2,369,000. But Mr. Speaker, these schools are not all elementary or high schools, that would be built out of these funds.

Three of the schools will be built in the City of St. John's. One will be built in Grand Bank, two will be built in the Marystown - Creston area, one at Stephenville and one at H~ppy Valley. The rest of that vote will be spent of that DREE money will be spent on the extension of Vocational schools at Gander, Burin, Seal Cove and the construction of a vocational school {it is not going to be much construction, a total of $564,000 for the vocational school in Happy Valley). Well Mr.

Speaker, that does not even come close to meeting the needs, number one; of the _people who reside out of the designated areas under the DREE program. And secondly, it does not take care of the admonition and the warning that had been issued by the integrated educational committee to the Province of Newfoundland. Now Mr. Speaker, what are we going to do? It is all very easy for someone to stand on this side of the House and say, more and more money should be spent on education in Newfoundland.

But the obvious question that any responsible Government has to ask, is say "fine, what are we going to do, where are we g9ing to get the money?" Now Mr. Speaker, there are two or ~hree ways that we have to get money. One, I believe is hidden somewhere in the depths of this legislation in this Bill that is ·now under debate. Because if it is envisaged and I suspect that this is not too far off, the thirty school districts in Newfoundland will ultimately become also school tax authorities. This will provide at least a down payment, and it will do somethin~ else Mr. Speaker.

It will enable school boards to borrow monies for the construction 3353

May 4, 1970 Tape 0755 Page 2 of schools on a long term basis. This is somethinp, school boards have been unable to do in this Province. True it is that a school.board goes to the Department of Education, and I have been with .groups that have gone to the Department of Education and say we desperately need a school in sqch and such a place.

We would like to build that school this year. nte necessity for it is very urgent, and after negotiations and advising the Minister of Eduation, and advising the Department of Education, they eventually have been shuffled off to what was then, the denominational superintendents of education. And if they then could convince this other group, they would eventually not get the sixty percent or the seventy-five percent, or whatever the percentage is they are entitled to for an elementary school or a high school.

They would simply be told,"you go and borrow the full cost of that school, or close to it, and we will give a letter to your bank, saying that over the next five years or seven years, there will be paid out of Government funds, to your particular denomination, X number of dollars, which that denomination has assigned to your bank." Now Mr. Speaker, that is not the way you pay for schools. The life expectancy of most school buildings in this Province at least, is twenty to thirty years.

I understand in the United States, they indicate that a school building is antiquated after ten, but I doubt if we are ever going to reach that Utopia where we can afford to demolish schools after such a short period. But the simple fact is this MR. WELLS: Do they demolish them in the United States? MR. HICKMAN: No they do not demolish them in the United States, but in a good many instances they stop using them in the wealthier areas. But Mr. Speaker, the situation that we have in Newfoundland is this.

That school boards, churches, groups that are building schools have been obliged to build a school with a life expectancy of twenty to thirty years, and pay for it besides, and this does not make sense. The practice that is followed as bon. members know in other jurisdictions, is that a duly constituted school tax authority, has the right to go in to ~he bond market, 3354 ~

Hay 4, 1970. Tape #755 Page 3 float a bond issue, borrow money say for twenty or twenty-five years, almost for the life of the school, so that that school is paid for b~ than one, not one r,enerati.on, but paid for by more than one ~roup of people in that particular age group. Now Mr. Speaker, that Rill should, the Bill that is presently before the House, should in my opinion, enable school boards to go out and borrow their share, their community, or their area share of the funds that are necessary to construct the schools. Well Hr.

Speaker, let us not try and lead our people down the garden path by silly comparisons with what was spent on education ten years ago, and five years ago, and twenty years ago, because Mr. Speaker, that is not what we are concerned about at all. \~at we are concerned about in the Province right now, is the amount of contribution that is being made by our people through Government to education. And Hr. Speaker, that is not a very pretty picture.

The Budget Speech that was read here last week said that the rich Province of British Columbia is spending on education, two point eight percent of its gross provincial orofit. That is to say the amount of spending on education in that great province is just under three percent of the total value of all the goods and services produced there. In Ontario they spend three point eight of their GPP. In Newfoundland, this Government are spending on education. se~en point nine percent, practically eight percent of the Province's gross provincial profits. Now that makes great reading, if this was correct. Mr.

Speaker, it is what is left out of that statement is r~evant, what is left out of this statement is that in the Province of Ontario, the Provincial Government itself provides approximately fifty percent of the educational cost and the other fifty percent comes from the municipality or the school tax authority. And the same applies in most Canadian Provinces, all Canadian Provinces except New Brunswick, including New Brunswick up until two years a~o. So Mr.

Speaker, the relevant question, that has to be asked is not how much of the gross provincial profit is being spent on education in Newfoundland - that is completely and absolutely misleading yardstick. What has to 33~5

May 4, 1970 Tape 11755 Page 4 be asked Mr. Speaker, is how much is being spent by Newfoundlanders on a per capita basis on education in Newfoundland? And then Mr. Speaker, you get the whole truth which does not do, does not put this Government in a very good light, Somewhere ~n the Warren Commission Report, I think it is on Page 128, Volume (2), there is a breakdown of the contribution of various, of th 'eople of various provinces toward education. Page 112. Now Mr. Speaker, I have lost the table - would the hon. the Minfster of Education, he can put his finger on the table, he knows where it is.

It indicates that Newfoundland, either ranks lowest or second lowest in its per pupil contribution to education in Canada. Now maybe that is all we can afford Mr. Speaker. Maybe that is all the money that we can lay our hands on;· But what I say Mr. Speaker, is this. We should not mislead the people of Newfoundland by continuous and silly references to the past and by comparing the contribution of the gross national product of other provinces with ours. That is not Mr. Speaker, the yardstick that has to be used in deciding whether or not our contribution to education in Newfourldland is a commendable one. Hr.

Speaker, there is, I think I have found it now, on Page 132 of the Volume (2) of the Warren ~mmission Report, an indication~ of the amount of money spent, or the percentages spent by the ten provinces in Canada on education. And we find for instance that the total expenditure on public, elementary and secondary education per capita; Newfoundland forty-nine, 1963; Prince Edward Island fifty-six; Nova Scotia, seventy-one. Well it goes all the way up to Saskatchewan, 109, Quebec LOB, and some of the other provinces, ninety­ three and ninety-two dollars. Now Mr.

Speaker, the Commission in its Report says that, Newfoundland's total provincial and local expenditure per pupil and eXPenditure per capita on elementary and secondary education were much less in 1963 than for all provinces. And Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you, that that figure, that ratio has not changed since the Warren ~ommission compiled this Report. And all 1 say is this Mr. Speaker, that if our school board, our Newfoundland parents are not scared to face up to their responsibilities, if you give 33~6

May 4, 1970 Tape 6755 Page 5 them the facta. But there is not much poirit in trying to paint a pretty picture of the edueatiortal needs of this Province, and tnring to suggest to the people of Newfoundland, that we are well out in front in our contributi .on to education in Newfc>undland, then the simple fact is that we are far, far, far behind, and getting further .... 3357

May 4, 1970 Tape 11756 Page 1 MR. HICK!-!AN: and further and further behind. Because if we give them the challenge within the limits of their resources, and within the limits of our resources, they would probably and would be prepared to try and project their requirements, to project their financial need and to try and involve their area in raising the necessary funds that are so desperately needed for the construction of schools in Newfoundland right now. Mr. Speaker, there is a very good

article carried in the April 3, 1970 ' issue of the Educator's Gazette. And it deals with the problem that has been set forth by Integrated Education Committee and the demands of that Committee for further and more funds by way of capital vote. And then it g~es on to say this Mr. Speaker, there can be no denying that provincial spending on education has shot dramatically upward in the last two decades. From $4 million in 1949 to $81 million in the present year.

Comparisons between expenditure in the pre-Confederation period and the present can be most deceiving, and may well precinitate a complacency about the matter which is quite unwarranted. Nor are we competing with the past. If there is one great encumberance, for want of a better word, insofar as Government philosophy is concerned at this time, is this insatiable competing with the past. Who cares about the past if it is going to be mean that by competing with the past and comparing with the past, we are impeding with the progress of the future, and this Mr. Speaker, is surely what has been happening.

And this is surely what :f_s happening right now in the field of education. If I continue to Quote, . . "nor are we competing with 'the past, it is far less flattering but more to the point, to compare our present spendings with the amounts we should be investing if we are to upgrade our educational programs to the Canadian average. The real eye-opener comes when we compare Newfoundland's allocation for capital expenditures in education with those in other provinces. Here is an example.

The Newfoundland Government and the school boards are together providing this year, an amount just in excess of $5 million for capital expenditures. The erection and equipment of school facilities. 33r;8

May 4, 1970 Tape 11756 Page 2 The metropolitan Toronto School Board which caters to 380,000 students, as compared to our 150,000, budgeted for last yeat for capita~ expenditures, $200 million. The Budget Speech tries to show us in a good light, to the whole of the Province of Ontario, and when you read that statement · you realize how nonsensical that statement in the Budget Speech really is.

The argument, and again I quote from the Educator's Gazette, " the argument that we must first develop indu~t~, build more roads, provide more municipal services, is frequently advanced to justify the pittance which has been budgeted for school construction. Those who pursue that line of reasoning forget one basic and crucially important factor. They forget or choose to ignore the fac~ that the boy of thirteen in some make- shift classroom, or over-croWded basement cannot waste five years for Newfoundland to develop industrially. He cannot have maturation stand still.

His time is now - five years hence he may not be too tolerant when told I am sorry, we had to choose between you and roads, and chose roads. If he is robbed of a high school education of the opportunity of well adjusted happy adult life, he may not understand when we tell him that 1969's tight money was to blame. Factors of human need not those of political expedience must dictate our decision to allocate provincial revenue.

The case where an immediate quadrupling of the provincial allocation for capital educational expenditures watertight - to hold the budgeted amount to the present $4 million would be criminal and irresponsible. We make an appeal to the provincial legislators, not to sell the youth of Newfound~nd short in this critical matter. It often takes more political courage to do that t.rhich deserves your re-election, to than that which guarantees your re-election. And that Mr. Speaker, I say "Amen, amen and amen." And that is precisely what we are doing in that vote in this year's Estimates.

We are selling the youth of Newfoundland short. We are not quadrupling the ~rant. We are not increasing the irant one iota, not a penny. The only schools that we are going to see built this year out of provincial funds, or outside of provincial funds 33ri9

May 4, 1970 Tape #756 Page 3 or in these areas that I mentioned that come under the DREE program, which involves as well the borrowin~ by the Province in order to meet its shares, Now Mr. Speaker, when we talk about these great traditions, the time honoured traditions, it seems to me that the Government of Canada is not quite as concerned about the Constitutional niceities as the hon. the Minister of Education. It seems to me that the Government of Canada is prepared to invade the sacred provincial field of education. They are doing it through the DREE program.

I have been told by officials of the Government of Canada who are negotiating the DREE program, and this comes as a bit of a surprise, but the hon. the ·~ Minister I am sure will have to agree that it is correct - that their negotiations for the erection of the six schools or the seven schools that are being built in Newfoundland this year, under the DREE program is being carried out · by the Department of Education, is being carried out with the Assistant Deputy Minister. He has being doing the negotiating. Where has all the great tradition gone now? What has happened to the denominational educational council?

Where is the responsibilities of the churches now? Are the Government of Canada to come down, and the Government of Newfoundland to commit the unpardonable sin to talking to them about schools, and wh~re schools are going to built? It seems to me that another tradition is dying and the old tradition is trotted out to suit political purposes. Mr. Speaker, let me tell you that it is a fact. It is not nonsense, it is a fact, that the negotiations were carried out with the Assistant Deputy }linister of Education ' and the DREE officials. And then they went MR. SMALLWOOD: Will the hon. gentleman allow me?

The schools are being built by the Newfoundland Government and owned by the Newfoundland Government. Not owned by the churches. MR. HICKMAN; Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier obviously does not know his facts at all. He does not know his facts. He has completely overlooked the facts, that the churches still are the denominational educational committee - still has an involvement, and a very 2ffective involvement. 33GO

Tape IJ756 Page 4 1 do not have to crawl out of it a.t all. You try and crawl out of it. The hon. the Premier is the one that spread this nonsense in the Budget Speech, nonsense, absolute unadulterated nonsense, that is what it is Mr. Speaker. And the people of Newfoundland are not going to be fooled any longer. What about this letter from the Reverend clergyman in Fogo, is that nonsense? Is it nonsense when there are 1350 pupils in Fogo that do not have adequate accommodation? Is that nonsense? No Mr.

Speaker, ·nor is it nonsense that twenty-five percent of the amount that comes under the DREE program, the responsibility for repaying it has to come under our present scheme of things through the De'!lominational~Educational.\Connc!l. Nothing nonsensical about that, but still the bon. the Premier says, that it is going to be the Government's schools. The Government of Newfoundland are going to build the schools. MR. SMALLWOOD: And own them, MR. HICK}~: And own them? No Sir, that is not so Xr. Speaker. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, yes, and own them. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the hon~ the Premier, I realize his knowled~e of the rules leaves a great deal to be desired, but surely he knows by now, that if he wants to speak, he has to ask the bon. member who is speaking, to yield, and secondly, he cannot open his mouth unless he is sitting in his seat. Or is there another rule? I know no other rule. MR. SMALLWOOD: Crawl out of it now. MR. HICKMAN: I do not have to crawl out of it. All I have to do is - crawl out of what? Crawl ~ut of the fact that there is $4 million?

Crawl out of the~fact that the Government of Canada has delightfully, delightfully broken this great tradition, and is now dealing with the r~vernment of Newfoundland? MR. SMALLWOOD: It has not. It has not. MR. HICKMAN: Crawl out of the fact that less than three weeks ago, the bon. the Minister of Education stood in this House and said, ''do not ask me where we are going to build schools, the De~artment of Education, the 3361

Hay 4, 1970 Tape 0756 Page 5 Government of Newfoundland has no constitutional right to decide where schools are going to be built, or how or when or ~hy. That is the Churches." That is what he said. Absolute nonsense. MR. S!iALLWOOD: Will the hon. gent-leman yield? . MR. H,ICKMAN: I will not yield until this is sorted out. I am telling you Mr. Speaker MR. SMALLWOOD: He does not want the tru~h. MR. HICKMAN: The truth? I can give you the truth. MR. SMALLWOOD: I have it. I will give it. Now sit down and I will give it. MR.

HICK}~N: That the Government of Newfoundland is dealing with the Government of Canada for the construction of the DREE schools, and yet we are told that the Government in Newfoundland does not know where schools are going to be built? We are told that that is a matter for the churches. Of course it is when a school is not built. If a school is not going to go in Fogo this year, blame the churches. But if a school is built, who will be down cutting the ribbon? Who will be down there sayin~, that the Government built this school? I know what I am saying is right.

The hon. the Premier knows what I am saying is right, and he knows that the youth of this Province are being sold short. And they are being sold short for political expediences and nothing else. And Mr. Speaker, the day of reckoning, the crisis has arisen in Education in Newfoundland, and you cannot run away from it. And you cannot say that Come-by-Chance comes before Fogo. It does not.' Because Mr.

Speaker, Come-by-Chance, or St~phenville or Churchill Falls will be . of no use to a fourteen year old in Fogo, or a fourteen year old from the bottom of Fortune Bay, who is deprived of adequate schooling because there not sufficient funds to build a school. And Mr. Speaker, this is not the only crisis that is presently being faced in education in Newfoundland right now. The reduction that started last year and is continuing - the reduction in the teachers' grant, is resulting in the schools, these schools that commendably were built 3362

May 4, 1970 Tape 11756 Page 6 out a philosophy of consolidation are being cut back. Where is all this progress? Where is progress, when one school in Newfoundland today will have an increase next year, one high school, and this is a fact. It is not a supposition. An increase of sixty pupils next year over the present year, and will have one less teacher. Progress? Where is the progress that is requiring, that is not the word, compelling the school boards to curtail many of the programs that have been brought in here in the last ten years. Programs that were ten years behind, but they came in.

Go to any school board today and ask them about the statement of the hon. the Minister of Education . that was made in this House when he introduced this Bill, and commendably so when he referred to Section (46) which allows the school tax to be used for the provision of salaries of snecial teachers and staff in respect of which salaries are not provided by the Province. Ask him about that and he talked about it and told us about the need for reading specialists. Of course there is a need fon reading specialists. Of course there is a need for reading specialists in Newfoundland.

There was a survey done within the past three years of the reading capabilities of the Newfoundland student and it is not fair to particularize any one area because - but there was one a large area, a large student body in Newfoundland. And the findings Mr. Speaker, we~e not something that you could be proud of. It showed that the reading capabilities and the reading capacity of these students considerably below the Canadian average. And Mr. Speaker, if a student ;annot read, and I do not mean simply being able to pick up a piece of paper and know the alphbet.

But if a student cannot read, or comprehend, then the rest of it goes by the board, because if he cannot comprehend, it is not just his course in reading, it is his course in chemistry and physics and everything else that suffers. Now Mr. Speaker, that was the sort of program. These specialists programs - programs for slow learners. It was suddenly realized by two boards in Newfoundland, not the Department of Education. It would have been there 3363

May 4, 1970 Tape #756 Page 7 for another century if we had waited for the Department of Education. But two school boards in Newfoundland about ten years ago, or three, I think Grand Falls was first, suddenly said, "we should not accept this philosophy that simply because a boy or a girl is not in the top half of the class, that he or she, must become a dropout when they reach the end of the compulsory attendant age and become a drug on the label market. Surely something can be done, surely.

And it was suddenly discovered, that if you could find teachers who were trained to teach slow learners, if it was suddenly discovered that you could find the funds to reduce the teacher-pupil ratio down to I think, about twelve to fifteen per classroom.

But out of all these boys and girls who were heading for sure and certain dropout at the age of fifteen, could be rescued and whilst they might never come out with an honour matriculation diploma, they could at least find a school leaving certificate and they could at least gain the necessary prerequisite to enter the Vocational school or the Trade schools throughout the Province. And this program started, Mr. Speaker, to be implemented. It was a progressive one. It was one that the present 1 Minister of Education approved, and he still approves it. He mentioned it here the other day. But Mr.

Speaker, these programs are being · · ~ restricted, because the grants to school boards are being cut back. They are not making - they are not keeping pace with the demands of our school boards, the demands of our teachers, and the demands of our pupils today. Now this Bill Mr. Speaker, will confer on school taxes already, the right to raise funds, and ta ·use some of these funds to pay these specialist teache•s. But the point I am trying to make Mr.

Speaker is this, that it is totally wrong to try and spread a gospel that is untrue, to try and soread a word throughout Newfoundland that we have nothing to worry about insofar as educational programs are concerned. We have a great deal, and we are going back. We are not going ahead ri~ht now. And it gets me back Mr. Speaker, to the whole question of priority. And if we start downgrading education. If we start putting education at the bottom of the ladder. If we start saying you have to have roads and industrial development first, 3364

May 4th., 1970 Tape no. 757 Page 1 and education second, then Mr. Speaker, this will cause the exodus from this Province that politicians cry in their beer over. Mr. Speaker, in this Act, there is a clause that I would almost wish was mandatory, but I realize it cannot be because we are not that sufficiently well-organized, municipally throughout the Province. The hon. member for Humber East said that he would like to see Newfoundland divided up and organize .a county system, but that probably is not realistic as yet.

I cannot see, for instance, the countJ system working along the south coast from Terrenceville to Port aux Basques or on the northeast coast or Labrador and other parts of Newfoundland. But we will have and we do have now large school districts which presumably could also become the same areas for school tax authorities. And in these school tax authorities, we -find many well- organized municipalities.

This Act envisages and properly so that, if for instance we say in the city of Corner Brook the school tax authority decides to impose a property tax, it uses the tax rolls and permitted to use the tax rolls of the city of Corner Brook to assess the property to be taxed and this is as it should be and this can work in Corner B~ook, because I suspect the boundaries of the school tax authority and that of the city of Carper Brook are pretty similar. It could work in St. John's. It could work in Grand Falls.

It was the intention to work it in Fortune, when they set up a school tax authority two or three years ago and then came the announcement of ' no school fees and that was end of the school tax authority. But it can work in certain areas. Section (50) says: that a school tax authority may appoint a council as a collecting agency for school taxes. the I say, Mr. Speaker, that in areas where the boundaries of school tax authority and municipal council are almost one in the same, that nothing could be more prudent than for the school tax authority to use that council as a collectiap agency. Because 3365

May 4th., 1970 Tape no. 757 Page 2 otherwise, Mr. Speaker, and this is happenin~ riRht in Newfoundland now, as the hon. minister knows. You have two taxing authorities growing up side by side, under the same roof, both competing for the same taxed dollar, one threating a summons this week, the other threating a summons next week. The administrative cost is doubled. It would be far simpler and far more efficient and much, much cheaper, if the school tax authority in these areas would see fit to provide the town council as its agent for the collection of the school tax.

True it is you would have to pay the town council the cost of doinr, this work, but it would be nothing like the cost that is being incurred by school tax authorities themselves, separate and apart from the municipal council. Section (50) of the Act gives this authority. My hope would be that in any area where the boundaries are quite similar that the school tax authority would very much avail of that provision and would appoint the municipal council as the collection agency for the school tax. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there has been rreat debate during the debate on this Bill over the provision in the Act concerning the taxing of governments. There has been great talk·about the principle that Crown cannot tax itself. But, Mr. Speaker, and that this is a great tradition and that this tradition emanates from the power of the purse. If you take away the power of the purse from parliament, you take away parliament. The Parliament of Canada three years ago, in its wisdo~, I think, decided to give the right of collective bargaining to Civil Servants. That was a restriction on the 'arltament of Canada's power of the purse.

The Parliament of Canada has not collapsed since that occurred. The ~rovince of New Brunswick, I think it is New Brunswick and I think Saskatchewan done the same thing. There are indications that other provinces will follow suit. These general principles that stood Pitt the younger or Pitt the elder in good stead, when they were in Parliament, ~~tnot necessarily in keepinr. with the demands and the tim~ of the Province 33G6

May 4th., 1970 Tape no. 757 Pap,e 3 of Newfoundland today or of any other parliamentary form of government. Because, Mr. Speak~r, if you have collective bar~aining, what you simply do is you say to your Civil Servants, if you start your.bargaining now, May, June, July so that this will be completed before the brinSng do~~ of next year's budget. You cannot sweep them under the table by saying, do not touch the power of the purse. l{,ese people have to be recognized. They have to be given the right to collective bargaining and, Mr. Speaker, the same thing applies to Crown corporations.

The Government of Canada and the governments of some of the provinces still mainta~n this principle that you cannot tax the Crown. What they do, at the same time, is set forth policy decisions which has the same ~ffect has taxing : the Crown. We had examples in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. We have in Gander, school tax authorities. Most, not most, but a great deal of the property in Gander is owned by the Crown in the right of Canada, and the Crown, in right of Canada, will not accept the principle that the school tax authority in Gander cannot tax the Crown.

But what it does and what it is negotiated to do right now with the Armed Forces installations is that: you go out, make an assessment and assess what the taxable income would be from this property, if we were not a Crot~ corporation or if we were not part of the Crown as members of the Armed Services, and we will ne~otiate with you, a prant in lieu of taxes. The C.K.R. do it, all over Canada; they make grants to municipal councils. They make grants to school tax authorities in lieu of taxes, but it is a pretty fine distinction, ~r. Speaker. It is a distinction so fine that you cannot find it.

Certainly the distinction has never bothered the taxing authority, because they do not care, if they get a cheque from C.N.R. and say, here is a grant in lieu of taxes that is $5,000 or whether they r,et a cheque for $5,000 which says, here is our 3367

l-tay 4th •• 1970 Tape no 757 Page 4 .· property tax. All they \-Tant is the $5,000. Mr. Speaker, this is what we are looking for in this House. It is not a sudden declaration from the Government of Newfoundland that we have departed from the principles that the no one can tax the Cro~m, but what \-7e are saying is this: f.fr.

Speaker, when the Crown is engaged in commercial enterprises and when the Crown is receivin~ municipal benefits and municipal services that t·Then the Crown is receiving, as for instance.in Happy Valley where the Crown in right of Canada is bein~ provided educational facilities for the children of servicemen stationed there, that when this is being provided, we believe that it is a matter of policy rather than a matter of principle, that you sho-uld contribute to these municipal services.

This is why, for instance, there was a policy, up until a few years ago in the town of Clarenville where Newfoundland Hardwood~ for fifteen years 1 paid a grant to the municipal council of Clarenville, I think, it was $5,000 a year. They paid the tax. They did not call it a grant at all. They paid the tax.

Because they are receiving and we are receiving from the town council of Clarenville municipal services, the same as any other corporate entity ·tn that town and then su~denly it was stopped and then the inability of taxing the Cro~~. that great principle was waived and you have these institutions benefiting from all these municipal services. You had, for instance .. AN HON. HEMBER: Nothing in return. MR. HICKMAN: That is ri~ht. Nothing in return.

You have not got the message, because I would have to give it to you in baby talk, and if I gave ib to you in baby talk, it will get through, and I have not got the time to give it to you in baby talk. The simple fact is, Mr. Speaker, that these corporate entities are demanding and their employees who come in, the Armed Services and others who come in are demanding the same facilities as anyone else, and I say, Mr. Speaker, that whether you 3368

May 4th., 1970 Tape no 757 Page 5 can avoid destroying this principle upon which the very foundation of Parliament stands by simply making a policy decision that we will make a grant in lieu of your ability to tax. Everybody else has thoup.ht about it except the hon. member for Bell Island. It has not sunk in yet. MR. CROSBIE: He does not think. The hon. member does not think, except in baby talk. ~UIC~~ Mr. Speaker, again ••• MR. NEARY: The bon. member for St. John' toTes t •• MR. CROSBIE: Let it all hang free. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

HI~KMAN:_ We shold never have cut out that slow and learned program, Mr. Speaker. Never should have done it. MR. CR~SBIE: We needed the Chamber here. MR. HICKHAN:_ Well, Mr. Speaker, ar.ain if in the - oh! no, you do not like to hear the Warren Commission Report. The Warren Commission Report played great emphasis on school construction, location of schools, design of schools, assessment of needed schools and recommended the appointment of a construction school desi~n and construction branch of the Department of Education. Very simple thing, but a very essential thing, because we cannot afford any longer, Mr.

Speaker, the luxury of having·schools built in the wrong place, the luxury of having redundancy in Education .• HR. COLLINS: ----- You say the wrong place. You do not mean the wrong settlement~ ... MR. UICKHAN: The wrong place in the settlement and you may find, too, Mr. Speaker that in these large consolidated integrated areas, that you may h~.-.·.te. a school in the wrong settlement. MR. NEARY: I am way ahead of the hon. p,entleman. MR. HIC~N: Oh! you certainly are. }fr. Speaker, that apparently does not commend itself to the bon. Minister of Education. Because, Mr.

Speaker, a great deal of money has been wasted by school boards made up of dedicated ~ort 3369

May 4th., 1970 Tape no 757 Page 6 who do not have the foggiest idea as to what is required within the four walls of a school building. They came to the conclusion that if you put up the walls and you whi!cked in ten, fifteen or twenty classrooms that you have discharged your responsibility to the students in that community. They wouldcome to the conclusion that if you - on the other hand, if you decided that this is what is needed and you put up a monument and called it a school building that you are getting ~ood value for your money. Hell, Mr. Speaker, this is not so. But, Hr. Speaker •• MR.

NEARY: Surprise for the hon. gentleman. MR. HICKMAN: Oh! you have all sorts of surprises for the hon. the member, I am sure of that. But, Mr. Speaker, one thing that you have not - one surprise that has not been forthcoming from the Government benchersand it would be a very delightful surprise is the fact that there has been a change in thinking, insofar as the professional status of teachers in this Province are concerned. Now I do not mean the recognition of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. I do not mean referring to the profession of teaching as such. But what I say is this; Mr.

Speaker, that we have yet to see evolved in Newfoundland, a position where we will look to the teachers for the professional advice that we must have in our educational policies. It is very difficult to understand. If, for instance, a person is ill, he decides to go t~ a doctor and you ask for his professional advice as to the treatment and cure that is needed.

If you decide that you want to build a bridge, the design and whatever it is that they use, you go ·to a professional engineer. ~ut too often decisions, policy by the teachers decisions on educat~on are heard for the first time,•when it is announced over the radio. If for some reason, we believe that this House .• MR. NEARY; Has the hon. member ever heard of the N.T.A7 ---- 3370

May 4th., 1970 Tape no. 757 Page 7 MR._!IC~ If for some reason we believe that this House is competent to d.ecide educational policies out-of-hand. MR. NEA~~~ Ever heard of the N. T. A.? MR. HICKMAN: I have heard of the Teachers' Association. I have a great deal more to do with the N.T.A. than I suspect tbehon. member for Bell Island is likely to have had. MR. NEARY: Vdid not get a fee for it. MR.. HICKMAN: Nor did I get a fee for it. Not a cent.

But if the ho.n. member for Bell tsland will spend as many hours in Government, as I spent working gratuitously for school boards during the pass fifteen years, h.e has got a long, lon,g caree-r ahead of him in politics. Butf unfortunately this is not going to happen to him. What I say, Mr. Speaker 3371

~m. HICK}~: Mr. Speaker, is this that no one could stand in this House, and say that tomorrow or the next day, we are going to have in Newfoundland all the teaching aids, all the classroom accommodation, all the school buildings, all the educational programs, that you will find probably in some of the wealthier areas of North America. But what I do take issue with is an attempt to try and convence our people that we are receiving, and we have something which we have not, and I will repeat what I said earlier Mr.

Speaker, that when I see there has been no change so far as the priorities are concerned in Government spending, when I see that the, .. if the ,bon. member for Bell Island whether Gov,rnment has been listening to the professionals, all he had to do is think back two or three months ago, the factual statements and the professional statements of the integrated education committees on school construction. And when I see that Mr. Speaker, and when I see that the vote this year is the same as it was last year, then I say, Mr.

Speaker, that if tradition as to be broken, if no matter what it is, we cannot crawl out from in under by saying that we have not the right in this House or the Department of Education has not got the right to decide on where schools are going to be built, the type of schools that are going to be built, the curriculam t~at is going to be used in these schools, and the grants that are going to made available to teachers and teaching aids.

And if there is ever, not since 1949, has the generation of Newfoundlanders, in my opinion, been told a short, as they are now being sold right now in this Province in the field of education. HR. ROWE: F~W. Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: Just read this from Fogo, just read this from fogo. Do not tell me the gap is closed, it is widened. MR. CROSBIE: What about Bell Island? MR..- ·HICI01AN: Or Bell Island, or Bell Island MR. NEARY: .Honesty is about the ••••• the best school that was destroyed by fire. MR. CROSBIE: It does not matter. MR.

HICKMAN: Or the Straits of Bell Island, that we had in here today, or the Bottom of Fortune Bay. And what I am saying is this, and I will repeat it Mr. 3372

· --.~ ......... .,.., I~ .&.Gl-1'-' IJIJ ... '" - "" MR. CROSBIE: Speaker, that I am not sugeesting that Government come into this House and say that we have money to do all this, this year, obviously they have not got it. But do not come into this House and paint a rosy picture when the picture is not nearly that rosy and when our people sold right down the drain. MR. RmvE, F. W. Nonsense, nonsense. MRrSPEAKER Is the House ready for the question? HON. G.A. FRECKER:(MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS): Mr. Speaker, I am amazed, Mr.

Speaker, at some of the statements made by the hon. and learned member who just sat down. I do not intend to go into a long speech, but I just want to give you Mr. Speaker, and the hon. members of the House an example of what I mean. Just a few minutes ago, I am not quoting him exactly, but he thought that one would expect a professional body, such as the teachers to be consulted on matters of educational policy.

Whereas according to the speaker, or the hon. speaker who just sat down, usually referred the teachers here of Government policy, is a statement in this House. Now this is arrogant nonsense really. I first went to the Department of Education in 1934, and even then, Mr. Speaker, there was such a body as the Council of Higher Education. Now that Council of Higher Education was:_made up of thrity-three members, and most of these were teachers, leading teachers. And at that time, they dictated practically the syllabus upon which was based the exterrial examinations of this Island, it was not a Province then.

But in arriving at these policies the Council of Higher Education consulted with a number of sub-committees on various subjects dealing with ~ducation. And these sub-committees were made up of representatives again, of the teachers and of members of the University College, as it was then, and of the Department of Education. Now that was way back in 1934.

Later this policy was continued and curriculum committees were set up, and subject committees, so that we had perhaps sixty or a hundred teachers working on all phases of the curriculum throughout the period from 1934 to the very present, and never in my experience, that more than a quarter of a century in education was there any lack of consultation between 3373

MR. FRECKER: the teachers as an association and the teachers as members of school faculty, and teachers as members of the faculty of education, or members of the faculty of science, or members of the faculty of modern languages at the University. ~m. EARLE: Would the hon. minister permit a question? MR. FRECKER: Certainly. MR. EARLE: Could the hon. minister inform the House what consultation there was between the N.T.A., the members of the teaching profession on the subject of the abolision of school fees, or the matter of pre-tutition to the UMiversity or the payment of salar~es of the University? MR.

FRECKER: Mr. Speaker, that might be a facet of what the hon. member might call educational policy, but it is not education in the real sense that I am pre-dealing with it here. The teachers as a professional body dealing with education were consulted and are consulted and in the matter of their salaries they have been consulted right throughout the field. I have heard this statement by teachers, I have heard it from my own children who come home and tell me that, teachers had said to them in school, that they are not consulted.

It is absolutely false, and a member who have been Chairman of one of the leading school boards in this Province, to make ~ statement such as that, seems to me unpardonable. It just does not make sense. He speaks about the schools being built haphazardly, without consultation. What responsible school board, for instance the one that he was Chairman of, would go and build a modern school with consulting architects or without consulting people who are experienced in the field of school building, and that has been done throughout.

We have schools in Newfoundland today, including the leading schools that the hon. member had the privilege of being Chairman of the board, that comparely favourably with anything anywhere, and Newfoundland need not be ashamed of itself, because in certain areas distance from the amentities of life. there are school lacking these amen~ities. It might be just as fair to say that we have made no progress with school buildings because some little isolated cove has a rocky road such as it had fifty years ago. This goes on all the time, to say that we have not made educational project.

Well it is appalling that we should hear such a statement. I do not want to say any more at this time, Mr. Speaker. 3374

MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now, he will close the debate. MR. ROWE, F.W. Mr. Speaker, I hesitated, because the last thing I want to do in the world is to prevent anyone who wants to speak on th~s important subject. I do not know where to start , Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman who just sat down said he was appalled at the arrogant nonsense that he has heard here this afternoon, coming from an bon. gentleman who should know better.

And I am convenienced does know better to get up here and give us apart from anything else he was wrong in.fact, after fact this afternoon, fact after fact he was wrong, completely wrong. Wrong,for example, in the terms of union. I can only assume he has not read the terms of union. He says all the terms of union say·is, that we got to make sure we do not give the money out in an undiscrematory way.

Here is what the term of union says, and I never met any lawyer who did not know what this meant, who knew anything about Newfoundland's history and tradition, and our educational legislation prior to 1949, here is what it says," In and for, and I realize, Mr. Speaker, I realize I am wasting my time in. drawing attention or trying to point out what is the fact, and not what some people would like it to be. The bon. gentleman does not like our system of education, the demonominal system.

Why does he not be man enough to come out and go to the churches and say, if I get in power, I am going to destroy the demononinal systems, try that out, why does he not say that. Why does he not say it. This House, Mr. Speaker, could repeal all the legislation we have, we could repeal it, and then ask the Parliament of Canada to repeal this what I am going to read here, and then in turn would ask the Government of Westmin~ter to repeal that portion of the British North America Act, we could do it, will this House do it?

Will this House do it, I ask you? friend is always Have the people of Newfoundland ever demanded? My bon. ranging that people are demanding this, it is time for us to stop de~eiving the people and so on, he is a spokeman for me, regardless of the spokeman for the people. The