Resource Committee — 20 April 1994

1994-04-20

Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees

April 20,

1994 RESOURCE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Kay Young, M.H.A.

(Terra Nova) substitutes for Beaton Tulk, M.H.A. (Fogo).

The committee met at 10:00 a.m. in the House of

Assembly.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Penney): Welcome to the second

meeting of the Resource Estimates Committee. Today we will be dealing with the

estimates of the Department of Tourism and Culture and I welcome the minister,

the hon. Chuck Furey and his officials. I welcome, as well, the members of our

committee who will be deliberating with us today. Let me first introduce the

committee members: My name is Melvin Penney, I am the Member for Lewisporte and

I will be Chairman of this committee for today. Sitting at my immediate left is

Mr. Rick Woodford, the Member for Humber Valley, Vice-Chairman of the committee.

As well, we have Mr. Don Whelan, the Member for Harbour Main; Dr. Bud Hulan, the

Member for St. George's; Mr. Paul Shelley, the Member for Baie Verte - White

Bay; and we have with us Ms. Kay Young, the Member for Terra Nova, who is

filling in this morning for Mr. Beaton Tulk the Member for Fogo. I'll introduce

to you also our Table officer for this morning, Miss Elizabeth Murphy.

I shall do this very quickly - for those of you who

are not familiar with the procedures, this is an extension of the House of

Assembly except that it is a much more relaxed format. We have a relaxed dress

code and we are not restricted to identifying members by the districts they

represent, we can refer to them by their names. If any member of the committee

or the minister's delegation wishes to have a copy brought into the Legislative

Chamber, it's just a matter of asking our Page to do so.

The procedure we will be following is that we will

accord the minister twenty minutes to make an opening statement. I am reminded

that when we met with the same minister last night and he was wearing another

hat as Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, he decided that was not

necessary and we went immediately into questions. I'm sort of anticipating that

he may do exactly the same thing today. Anyway, the procedure is that we will

accord him twenty minutes to make an opening statement. We will then accord the

Vice-Chairman twenty minutes to make a statement as well. We will then go into

questions. Members will be given ten minutes each to ask questions of the

minister and rather than ask a lengthy ten-minute question, we will follow a

procedure very similar to that followed in Question Period in the House of

Assembly - short direct questions with direct answers. Each member will be given

his ten-minute period and if he hasn't finished the line of questioning he had

in mind we will give him another opportunity later on.

For the benefit of Hansard, who will be recording

this for posterity, I ask that the minister's officials identify themselves as

they speak because Hansard is not familiar with the voices of other than the

elected officials who sit in here on a regular basis. Recognizing, that you will

be speaking from a sitting position as opposed to speaking from a standing

position, which is what we are used to, I ask that you lean into the microphones

as well, and that you watch the monitor on the microphone; as the light comes

on, that's your cue to speak, you then identify yourself and you answer the

question.

Questions will be asked only of the minister, but

the minister can delegate any of his officials to answer in his stead. Having

said that, Mr. Minister, if you would introduce your officials and then proceed

to your opening statement.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much

for making provision for me to appear here this morning. I know that members

rearranged their schedules because I'm going to be out of the country next week

and that's why Industry, Trade and Technology and Tourism and Culture were

brought forward to the Estimates Committee first. I want to thank members for

rearranging their schedules and allowing me to appear.

I should point out that I appear here only in an

acting capacity. I have been the Minister of Tourism and Culture in an acting

capacity for some seven weeks now. I enjoyed the role before where Tourism used

to sit in the old Department of Development but, as you know, under the

restructured government, post-June 1992, under the SEP, there were two new

departments created, and this particular department has a very broad mandate

which impacts upon the economy in a substantive way. It isn't just tourism

anymore - it's culture; it's historic resources; it's parks; it's wildlife. A

great many things are cast into the net of this department, which is a key,

cornerstone department for the economy.

On my left is Mr. Robert Jenkins, the Deputy

Minister of Tourism and Culture; on my right is Mr. Sid Blundon, the Assistant

Deputy Minister of Tourism and Culture; on my far right is Mr. Rick Hayward,

Director of Financial and General Operations; behind me is Wayne Comeau and Ian

Chaytor, both of Tourism and Culture.

I don't have any major opening statement, Mr.

Chairman, except to tell you that in the short time I have been here with

Tourism and Culture it has been exciting. Things are moving along at a rapid

pace. There are some exciting developments happening throughout the Province,

the least of which is our preparation for the Cabot 500th Anniversary and, of

course, the millennium celebration beyond that, the 50th year of Confederation

which is coming up. There are a number of interesting celebrations that we are

preparing for, but we have targeted and highlighted as the centre piece as we

move toward the turn of the century, 1997, to be a national celebration which is

occurring in Newfoundland and Labrador, and which will take place over a

twelve-month period, so we hope to generate a lot of excitement. The master plan

of Cabot Corporation was just approved by Cabinet. We are in the midst now of

beginning negotiations to find some structural funding to proceed on this event.

Our tourism agreement has unfolded as it should,

minus the cutbacks from the former government, and sustained by the current

government. Within the limitations that we find ourselves, most of the projects

are moving forward at a very good pace.

I thought I would open it up, Mr. Chairman, and

allow for questions, because I could go on and ramble and eat up your time, and

no one wants to listen to me. I think it would be more helpful if we just turned

it over and had pointed questions at specific issues.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. In that

case, then, I will turn it over to Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

One of the topics as of late, the last year or so,

especially by the Department of Tourism and Culture, is, what's going to happen

to the Arts and Culture Centres in the Province. Has there been anything as of

late pertaining to those, or any agreements with any particular - my

understanding was that they were going to try to get some municipalities to take

them over and so on. I know, in Stephenville there has been some talk recently

pertaining to that particular centre, and Corner Brook has had some discussions

as of late. Is there anything that the minister or his officials could report as

it pertains to the centres?

MR. FUREY: The only thing I can report is in a

general sense, that the government, in its budget, determined that Arts and

Culture Centres best reside in municipalities - we have taken that as a position

- or in the communities where they are. Because these Arts and Culture Centres,

in fairness to those people who live in other parts of the Province that don't

have Arts and Culture Centres, you can't really call them provincial Arts and

Culture Centres. The Province has maintained them, sustained them, and carried

the cost for them, etcetera, but just take, for example, Deer Lake and north.

There is no Arts and Culture Centre in the hon. member's riding, and all the way

up the Northern Peninsula right to St. Anthony, most concerts and groups who

move around the Province have to rent schools and people come and pay those

costs, so we can't really say in truth that they are provincial Arts and Culture

Centres. The communities where they reside gain the most benefit for them, for

the most part.

Last night, the Fish and Folk group were in Plum

Point, and they had to perform at St. Augustine's School because there is no

Arts and Culture Centre there. So the Province is carrying these costs of

maintaining the employees, the overhead. The deficits created in each of these

centres is borne by all of the taxpayers of the Province. So we came to the

conclusion that if it resides in the community, perhaps the community is best to

run with it. That is not to say that we wouldn't continue to pay costs of

bringing in events from around the world - we would still do that, and we would

still pay a proportionate cost for programming and that kind of thing. But we

think where the centres reside, the community should drive what goes in there

and the cost and that kind of thing. So, what we were looking for, was a

devolution period to put them into the communities. We have targeted two areas

to start with, Gander and Stephenville. There have been a number of discussions

with the mayor and the council in Stephenville, very positive discussions I am

told, and we are just waiting now for a formal written proposition coming from

the Town, because the way that they would see it, Mr. Woodford, is that the

building ought to be put in top shape, we can't leave them for example, with a

leaky roof and that kind of thing.

If we are going to pass it to the community we have

to do certain structural repairs and then there would be a period of decreasing

subsidization possibly over a three-year period. So we have had good discussions

with Stephenville, we are waiting for a formal proposal. We have had good

discussions with Gander, a formal proposal has come in - I was briefed on it

some minutes ago. I am not very happy with it because of certain clauses in it,

so we are going back to the table to talk further with them. But it is our

intention over the next number of months, over the next twelve months, to try as

best we possibly can to turn these centres over to the communities in which they

currently reside.

MR. WOODFORD: So possibly by the end of the

next fiscal year then, government will -

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: Wherever there is an Arts and

Culture Centre in any municipality in the Province, you are going to try to have

an agreement with them.

MR. FUREY: We are going to try, and that, as

you know, may be a difficult and ambitious plan over twelve months, but I have

broached the subject with the Mayor of Corner Brook now, we intend to broach the

subject with the Mayor of St. John's, to get them thinking about it, because I

think it has a better opportunity to sustain itself economically, to make it

more viable if the community themselves are in charge of it. Because sometimes

red tape and other things will stop certain events from going into these centres

because they need a decision out of St. John's or wherever.

I think if they are community-driven and the

Province participates as a partner, in that we would still do our programming,

still pay for certain events going through there and that kind of thing, that,

in that kind of a partnership, with ownership at community level, we can

probably see it as a fruitful exercise.

MR. WOODFORD: Last night we touched on the

Marble Mountain contract, or the allocation of funds for this particular year -

I got it mixed up there with the Tourism and promotion one - especially as it

pertains to the travel generators, which is what it comes under in the

Estimates, 2.3.03 and the figure is $5,557,000. The minister stated last night

that those contracts - I believe there were four or five contracts called there

now or tendered and let I believe, I know there is one started.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible). But there are five or

six waiting to be let now, is there not?

MR. WOODFORD: Could the minister tell us what

else is planned for that particular area right now? I am hearing certain things

with regard to an all season resort, four seasons and so on. I know that there

is a new chalet, a new lodge and the groundwork for water and sewer and stuff

like that is going to be done, a parking lot and so on. Could the minister just

expand on that?

MR. FUREY: Sure. In that project we flowed $3.5

million last year to get the land assembly ready, which included water and sewer

hook-ups, because you couldn't - what we are trying to do is prepare the hill so

that we can offer something of substance to the private sector so they could

come in and invest. We don't want to build the chalets, we don't want to build

the hotels we don't want to do any of that, but what we want to do is prepare

the groundwork so that when they come in they say: Ah, the infrastructure is

here; it is a good place to invest. The marketing programs and all of that ties

together.

What we have done so far is flowed $3.5 million.

There sits on the estimates, I think, $5.57 million, roughly $5.6 million, that

will complete the base lodge as of February, 1995, we hope. There are five

contracts pending that will be let this week, I think, to the tune of $900,000

and that's for mechanical, electrical, foundation work all that kind of stuff.

There is a master plan that was developed by the former government and reviewed

periodically by the board at Marble Mountain, and the plan does talk about a

four season resort. In the future, we're looking at golf course development

across the Humber River, salmon lodges on the river, the current gondolas that

are used - not gondolas but ski-lifts that are used now to take summer tourists,

elderly people, that kind of thing, up the mountain to see the vista - and on a

clear day, as you know, you can see Gros Morne National Park right up the

Northern Peninsula - it's just amazing! The plan calls for a restaurant at the

top of the lodge, developed by the private sector, from what I can remember; bus

tours from the lodge up to Gros Morne; cross-country skiing out of the hotel

which would eventually be developed in Gros Morne National Park; increased ski

hills, down-hill skiing; cross-country ski trails in the back of the hill;

heli-skiing, where they bring people in from around the world in choppers to go

ski the Serpentine Bowl and other areas.

There's a great plan in place but it has a price

tag and the government wants to make sure that, as it moves, it is moving in a

very methodical way to prepare the foundation and put the infrastructure there

so that when we seek investment - and by the way there's unsolicited proposals

coming in periodically as well. We're trying to slow that down a little bit

until we get everything in order and then allow it to move forward but I think

we have established that a four season resort can happen out there. We have put

a lot of dollars into it and it is 100 per cent owned by the taxpayers of the

Province. If my memory serves me correctly, there were over 100 direct jobs on

the hill last year and there is something like a two or three to one - depending

upon which economist you talk to, and as George Bernard Shaw said, you can lay

all economist down head to head across the planet and still not reach a

conclusion - but depending upon which economist you're talking to, Mr. Woodford,

there is a two to three multiplier effect. Now, I see it in the cabs in Deer

Lake, the airport, the travel, it really has a fantastic winter take-up, an

economic engine in the wintertime out there on the West Coast.

I don't know if I've left anything out. Please feel

free anybody here who wants to add to that, but that's basically where we are.

So a total of $9.1 million will have flowed last year, this year and at the end

of the next fiscal year.

Mr. Blundon, the Assistant Deputy Minister of

Tourism wants to add something. Go ahead, ask him to feel free.

MR. BLUNDON: The only additional thing we're

doing - the minister mentioned that, I think it was in 1988, the overall master

plan was developed for Marble Mountain. One of the exercises we're carrying out

over the next two or three months is to take that 1988 report and update it to

1994 information, as well as have our consultants look at the various types of

opportunities for all season and to put a price tag on it in 1994 dollars.

MR. FUREY: I should add one other thing, we're

in the process now of trying to leverage some money from the Development

Planning agreement to update the business plan for the mountain and to do a cost

benefits analysis to show the taxpayers, well here's what we put in but here's

what is coming out and coming back to the Treasury. We collect a lot of taxes on

that hill - the future hill.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes. For the first time in years,

I would say since Marble started, I have had some negative reports this winter

about Marble Mountain. When you're going on innuendo, rumours and so on - well,

some of it came to be true, because only last week it was reported in the paper

out there that there were some problems with regard to the Marble Mountain

Corporation. Now, I got the information, and I guess the minister knows quite

well and too well that there's no problem getting it in my area. I mean, all the

taxis operate from Deer Lake, all the rent-a-car companies operate from Deer

Lake, the airlines operate out of Deer Lake, so if there's anywhere to get

information on Marble Mountain, you'll get it out there. But getting information

second-hand and getting it first-hand is something different and I would be the

first to admit that it didn't come from anybody associated with the Marble

Mountain Corporation, but I am sensing some negativity there. In fact, as the

minister knows, Air Nova pulled out this year for different reasons. Air Nova

pulled out as a sponsor of Marble Mountain, and it remained for Air Atlantic to

hold what was left, and I have heard other things since. So, if that's the case,

what is the cause of it? Is it coming from your directors there? What is it, I

wonder?

MR. FUREY: No, I've heard some of those same

complaints. Let me deal with Air Nova. When you say they've pulled out, there is

MR. WOODFORD: As a monopoly.

MR. FUREY: Pardon?

MR. WOODFORD: Go ahead.

MR. FUREY: The Marble Mountain Development

Corporation, as we moved forward, put in place a marketing plan called a

partnership plan. Air Nova wasn't very happy with the substance of that plan,

but I should tell you, in fairness to Air Nova, I've met with them, and the

Premier's met with them, and my senior people have met with them, just as

recently as two weeks ago, or was it last week - last week - and we had a very

good and frank discussion. We have had follow-up meetings since, and I think

we're on the road to putting that back on track.

You see, when the mountain - and I don't want to

get into the whole history, but let's just say this: it has become a big

business, and if you're going to run a big business you have to change certain

things you used to do in the past. You can't be sloppy about things, and you

can't just do things haphazardly, and that's not a criticism of any one person,

but rather it's a constructive criticism of the fact that it has grown so

rapidly. So we have put in place a board of directors and we brought on a new

executive director. The role of the ski club changed substantially, and so did

the role of the corporation. We see it as a Crown corporation now and a business

that is moving towards becoming a big business.

Change always generates pain - always generates

pain - not just at Marble Mountain. Anywhere you take something that has been

developing and going a certain path, and restructure it and change it, there is

bound to be pain falling out of that, and negativity and criticism, but I can

tell you that last year, 1993, there were 79,000 skier visits. That was up 6 per

cent over the previous year. Now, this particular year, because of the

climatology, the lateness of the snow and the weather conditions and stuff, we

would have been, we projected, very lucky to break even over last year. Now, as

it turns out, we're going to be perhaps about 1,000 skier visits over, so

there's something going right while, at the same time, we're trying to iron out

the negative wrinkles, but I've heard some of the criticisms that you've heard.

In fact, I've had some of them shared with me by the Member for Humber East. We

had the opportunity to fly out to the West Coast together one night, and we had

an hour on this subject.

We're moving to do our best. These are all

volunteers who sit on the board - none of them are paid, and they are all from

the West Coast. So you're working with volunteers in a structure that has now

become big business - a big business, and trying to manage that and manage the

affairs and the personalities and everything that goes along with it is a

difficult task, and we're trying, Mr. Woodford, to deal with each of the

problems individually as they're brought to our attention. Some of them we can

solve; some of them we can't.

MR. WOODFORD: I can appreciate some of the

problems they have there. Being a volunteer is one thing, but with a business

such as Marble Mountain you need excellent volunteers, I can assure you. You

said big business, and getting bigger, there's no end to the extent of the kind

of business that can generate and bring in in direct funds and revenues to

government.

Has there been any agreement - I guess the minister

would know about it - with regard to the... Marble Mountain, to my

understanding, is in the planning area of Corner Brook. It is not in the actual

municipal plan of Corner Brook. There was some friction there with Steady

Brook's community plan. Did that ever -

MR. FUREY: No, the whole of Marble Mountain is

excluded from both jurisdictions. It is directly owned, controlled, and operated

by the Crown through the corporation. We consult with Steady Brook. We see them

as a major partner. In fact, in this particular base lodge agreement there is

provision, as I recall, to make sure that the sewage treatment that will be at

the base of the hill for the customers and clients through the lodge, we're

going to make sure Steady Brook accesses that and we're going to make sure there

is funding provided through the municipal capital works to ensure they are given

priority so that if we are going to do this, Mr. Woodford, the town has a

benefit as well.

Second point: the Steady Brook... when Mr. Barrett

and the former government set up Marble Mountain Development Corporation they

ensured - there is a provision in that particular regulation or act. I can't

remember, is it

an act or a regulation?

AN HON. MEMBER: It was a regulation.

MR. FUREY: It was a regulation. There is a

provision stipulating that Steady Brook have one voting member appointed from

the council to the board, and we have carried on with that tradition and

honoured that regulation. And there is provision for Corner Brook to have one

person, because they are the critical players in terms of the towns adjacent to

the area that take benefit from it. So they have had input and have offered up

some very good people. In Corner Brook's case, Patricia Pye, the economic

development officer, has played a critical role on the board and I think, a Mr.

Thistle - Don Thistle, does that ring a bell?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Yes, he has been there for a number

of years. So in that sense both communities have voting rights at the board

table and can bring any problems that arise to the direct attention of the

board. They have in the past and we have dealt with them, but none of the land

per se, comes within the jurisdiction of either community for planning or other

purposes. It is directly owned, controlled, operated and directed by the

government.

MR. WOODFORD: But it was in the planning area,

and in any planning area outside a municipality, as you know -

MR. FUREY: It is not any more.

MR. WOODFORD: So they actually took that out.

Did they actually survey it or just leave it under the Crown, period?

MR. FUREY: Yes, there was a survey done. There

was one piece of property, though, Mr. Woodford, within the context of this land

which we required - where the old tower line came down -

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, right.

MR. FUREY: - called The Dogwoods. It's a

triangle of land right inside of there which was owned by Kruger and which we've

just negotiated into the Marble Mountain Development Corporation.

MR. WOODFORD: So that's into it, is it?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: Is that right? So they got title

to that Crown?

MR. FUREY: Yes, it is being finalized now and

it was done by way of a long term ninety-nine-year lease.

MR. WOODFORD: Would that come -

MR. FUREY: But now we are going to take direct

transfer and control.

MR. WOODFORD: Now, would that come under this

1.6 million acres that you just brought back? Because if that's the case, that

would possibly come under that first half and then you could get title to it?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, because some of those

concerns, as the minister stated earlier when talking about the infrastructural

part of what's going in there now, I mean, this will be the foundation for

everything else to go on. If you have problems with lands, as anybody knows, if

any municipality around this Province has problems with land, especially in

planning areas, that could throw a monkey wrench into the whole works. So it's

good to see that the proper titles are secured and the foundation for something

to build on is going to be put in place. I understand my time is up.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Woodford, the housing

corporation had the same concerns.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes.

MR. FUREY: They identified that as a concern,

even though we instructed them to proceed with the land assembly, but we have

had discussions with Kruger, and in the early part of the discussions before the

land agreement was constructed, they wanted to deal in a ninety-nine-year lease,

but as you know and I know, if there's a Jedd Clampett or something happening

under that triangle, they don't care about Marble Mountain, in they go. So we

wanted to isolate it - you're quite right in your argument to get full title and

control; that's where we are headed and the final agreement should be done very

soon.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Hulan.

DR. HULAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. acting Minister, I must say I was indeed

impressed with your somewhat detailed knowledge of a department that you haven't

been really closely associated with in recent years and with the exception of

one question, I think, to one of your associates, you handled the questioning

very well and I was indeed impressed. I'm sorry I missed the meeting last night

- sorry?

MR. FUREY: Easily impressed. I hope you're not

easily impressed.

DR. HULAN: Not quite, as you probably already

know.

I have a few questions on line items. First of all,

I was interested in an item on page 173, and there is probably a very simple

explanation for it - a considerable drop in Purchased Services under Craft

Development - marketing, design and promotional activities, gifts and apparel

and so on, over $100,000.

MR. FUREY: Subhead 2.2.03.

DR. HULAN: Yes, 2.2.03.06.

MR. FUREY: Mine are done differently from the

assistant's here. Okay, Craft Development, is that what you are looking at?

DR. HULAN: Yes.

MR. FUREY: Purchased Services?

DR. HULAN: Yes.

MR. FUREY: What you are seeing, the reduction

there, is reflective of the Rural Development Agreement which expires March 31

of this year, 1994. It expired, in fact, just a number of weeks ago. What you

are seeing in there is a drop on the project side. Under that agreement we had a

stand-still clause where we froze all of the project side of the agreement so

that no monies could flow out for - in the case of crafts they used it for a lot

of journeys and marketing and that kind of thing, and trade shows.

What we did was roll that project money forward

into administrative funding while the task force of Dr. House and Gordon Slade

go about their work looking at the seventeen zones for the next six months,

which is what that is reflective of.

DR. HULAN: Fine.

I am going to skip over some of the little things I

had noted, but one that I noted in particular, and you can imagine why it caught

my eye, coming from the West Coast of the Island where salmon rivers are very

important, and the Salmonid Enhancement program to us is very encouraging, in

view of what has happened in the past, and I think it is going in the right

direction, but there is a tremendous drop in grants and subsidies.

If we look at 4.2.07, Grants and Subsidies for the

Salmonid Enhancement program dropped from $412,000 to $85,000.

MR. FUREY: 4.2.07, I'm sorry?

DR. HULAN: Page 187 - 4.2.07.

MR. FUREY: And which area were you looking at?

DR. HULAN: Grants and Subsidies.

MR. FUREY: Oh, yes, okay, $535,000?

DR. HULAN: Yes.

MR. FUREY: That was funnelled - we had that for

awhile, Salmonid Enhancement, but if you look in the fisheries estimates you

will see an increase in the same area.

DR. HULAN: Okay.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: The deputy just points out that we

are - the whole agreement, I guess, sat with us for a little while, did it?

AN OFFICIAL: Some parts of it.

MR. FUREY: Some parts of it. We now just look

after enforcement of the rivers and the planning for the river use. All the

rest, stock assessment, salmon enhancement, habitat restoration, and the

communications and administration component of the Salmonid Enhancement

Agreement, rests now with fisheries, so with the decline in our budget, you

would see an incline in theirs.

DR. HULAN: On page 179, gentlemen, item 3.3.01.

MR. FUREY: Page 179?

DR. HULAN: Page 179, 3.3.01. I have a

particular interest in historic sites, having been the owner of one, actually,

on the West Coast of Newfoundland, my ancestral property.

I notice here there is a tremendous change in the

1993 budget of $30,600 to $13,300 for Transportation and Communications. Is

there some reason for that?

MR. FUREY: The $13,300 going to -

DR. HULAN: No, $30,600 going to $13,300.

MR. FUREY: Yes. There, you are seeing travel

costs and communications costs directly related to the tourism agreement.

DR. HULAN: Okay. There is a cut of over 50 per

cent.

MR. FUREY: Because of the agreements coming to

an end.

DR. HULAN: Okay, good. I have a few other

questions.

I am very pleased with the dollars that are going

into the Marble Mountain resort. I again support that wholly; maybe someone

might even suggest I support it wholly because it is on the West Coast. By the

way, I left Stephenville this morning with the temperature at fourteen degrees

and yesterday it was eighteen to twenty degrees out there, so it is a fairly

nice climate, but I have a concern. And I stand to be disagreed with here, but,

other than the Agri-food industry and the manufacturing industry, I suppose

there is no other industry that has as great a potential for this Province, as

Tourism.

I have a concern, though, when I hear that there is

a possibility of developing land across the Humber River into a golf course. If

it is the land I am thinking about, it is some of the best agricultural land we

have in the Province, and I will have difficulties with that.

MR. FUREY: If you have some concerns I would be

happy to hear about them. I think there is very limited growth happening there

now, some small amount of strawberry growing, I think, Rick?

MR. WOODFORD: Where is that?

MR. FUREY: Across the Humber River.

MR. WOODFORD: Oh, yes.

MR. FUREY: There is not much agriculture there.

MR. WOODFORD: No, but what happened -

MR. FUREY: You are right though, it is fertile

land, beautiful land.

MR. WOODFORD: Beautiful land.

MR. FUREY: It will make great fairways.

DR. HULAN: Yes, I think we can make fairways

some other way when we can put our compost together and so on and we can even

make a fairway almost on granite rock with the composting we can do today, just

ask Genesis Organic.

MR. FUREY: Talk about Genesis, I (inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: Nice place for a U-pick.

DR. HULAN: Also, a nice place for an apple

orchard, as Mr. Gerard Beaulieu has already demonstrated. I just want to raise

that flag because I think we must -

MR. FUREY: I want to concur with you that the

Codroy Valley is an absolutely spectacular, gorgeous piece of real estate that

can be developed further into tourism potential and I have committed when I

return from France, to go with you and spend some time with you. You might want

to tell me how the Cormack Trail is doing.

DR. HULAN: That was my next question, Sir.

MR. FUREY: We put a lot of money into that.

DR. HULAN: That was my next question. I had

`Cormack Trail' here.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

DR. HULAN: The Cormack Trail is developed -

MR. FUREY: No, this is a different Cormack

Trail, Mr. Woodford.

DR. HULAN: Yes, this is the -

MR. FUREY: It has no potholes.

MR. WOODFORD: Don't tell me, I happen to be

living there.

DR. HULAN: This is the real Cormack Trail that

was established in 1822. The Cormack Trail is developing very well. I think the

monies that have been put into it - I not only think, I know, have been used

very wisely.

MR. FUREY: The North American Appalachia

Society is involved in that.

DR. HULAN: That's right.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible) the tail end of the

Appalachian Mountains.

DR. HULAN: Yes, the Appalachian Mountains.

I just wanted to hear your views on two things: the

support for the Cormack Trail, which I have heard before, and the whole issue of

Rails to Trails. And I raise that because I happen to be a member of a bicycling

club in Western Europe; I had the nicety of being able to teach at a university

in Western Europe for two years and, as a result, I am still a member of that

bicycle club. I have a lot of friends in Belgium and France and so on, and hear

from them from time to time, and they would just love to be able to come, many

of them, in fact I think thousands of them, would love to come and see this

Province in its entire beauty by travelling it by bicycle from Port aux Basques

to St. John's.

They don't want to compete with the big trucks that

I had to compete with two years ago, but they would like to come and travel the

bicycle-way on the old rail bed. And, you know, I have been saying now since

they started taking up the rails a few years ago, that three of four inches of

pavement, six feet wide would make the most beautiful bicycle-way. It would be a

maintenance-free bicycle-way for the next thirty of forty years because it would

be on six feet of crushed stone - perfect drainage, and pavement breaks up when

you don't have good drainage. You would have no heavy traffic over it and we

would have it for the next fifty years. We have a tourism attraction there -

please.

MR. FUREY: Well,Dr. Hulan, I congratulate your

having biked across the Province.

DR. HULAN: In four-and-a-half days, Sir.

MR. FUREY: That's terrific! When did you do

this?

AN HON. MEMBER: In tenth gear.

MR. FUREY: That's terrific!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FUREY: The Rails to Trails - first of all,

the Cormack Trail, we are big supporters of that in Tourism and Culture, I

assure you. Through the Rural Development movement, a lot of work has been done

out there and I can only commend the local volunteers - they are just a dynamic,

terrific group. I can only sing their praises from the highest mountain top, and

anything we can do to promote and help that development along, I would be just

eager to do it. When we visit your district on my return from Europe I would

love to talk to them out there.

The Rails to Trails: the government, as you know,

has put a freeze on any use of any part of the rail bed from Port aux Basques to

St. John's. Nobody is supposed to touch it, remove a pebble from it, damage it

or, in any way, hurt it. We have taken a strategy that we should look at - it

probably would be one of the largest linear parks of the wilderness in North

America and that is what we want to look at. So we have established that

principle, that there is a freeze on current use.

When I hear some of these people talking on the

radio, as I did the other day, about: what is the government going to do and

where are they now? Some of these people could be very helpful by getting some

of their own neighbours to stop removing things right in their own little areas.

One of the people who was quoted on radio appeared before my committee of

resource policy and told me his neighbour was taking away crushed stone...`What

are you doing about it?' `Nothing' - so you can't speak from both sides of your

mouth. If you are going to be earnest about this then promise, let us all

protect it. In fact, I walk the rail bed every morning at six o'clock with my

two dogs, through Bowring Park winding all the way out towards your district. I

don't quite get to your district but it is a good walk and that portion of the

rail bed is in great shape.

The problem - well, there are a number of problems

and we are just getting ready to address some of these problems in a Cabinet

paper for my colleagues to look at and try to address. The Rails to Trails

study, which was conducted under the Rural Development Agreement, cost-shared

70/30 at a $250,000 cost, came back with various propositions that could be used

for the rail bed to enhance tourism, such as your idea, but the real problem is,

to put the rail bed into a linear park and to do what that study says ought to

be done, the costs are anywhere from $30 million - $45 million in capital costs

and maintenance, so where do we get that money, that is one issue. The second

issue is: Who will control the rail bed? Should it be controlled in pockets and

sections as the study calls for? I think, in their study, if my memory serves me

correctly - and I'm going from two years old memory - there are some twelve or

fourteen zones. Is that right? at least that. Do you remember, Rick?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I think there are fourteen.

MR. FUREY: So they carve up the linear park

into fourteen zones with fourteen separate management groups, who would manage.

Now, is that the right way to go? I don't know.

The next issue becomes one of liability, and a very

serious issue. If somebody is killed on that rail bed, who is responsible? Is it

one of the fourteen zones, depending upon where the fatality happened? Who will

carry the current costs once the capital costs are put in place, the $40

million? Let's say I wave a magic wand and it is completely restructured, the

brush is cut back, the entire rail bed is put back in shape, it is paved, even,

for summer traffic with echo tourism coming out of Europe - you are quite right,

the bikers would come in droves from Europe to ride this wilderness linear park

from end to end, and in the wintertime the pavement wouldn't hurt for snow

skidooing and that kind of thing. Who would get the rights to establish small

little inns along the rail bed?

DR. HULAN: Oh, the Liberals, of course.

MR. FUREY: No, not all the Liberals. Those who

would be the risk-takers would get it, but who determines who will get it? So

when we say there is a linear park, what falls out of that is a whole range of

complex questions and issues, the least of which is the capital cost of

preparing the rail bed, and it is something we are wresting with now. Perhaps we

can find some money through NCARP. Perhaps the feds would do some kind of

special agreement with us. There are all kinds of possibilities. Perhaps the

private sector ought to be brought in, in a partnership, to do this. We agree

with one thing - the potential is outstanding, it is magnificent, but falling

out of that potential comes a whole range of very complex issues.

DR. HULAN: One last little comment, very

quickly: you are familiar with the fantastic bicycle-ways through the Gatineau

Park.

MR. FUREY: I am.

DR. HULAN: And they have a nice -

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).

DR. HULAN: I'm sorry?

MR. FUREY: And Quebec snowmobiling club.

DR. HULAN: Yes, and part of it is under the

National Capital Commission, and I am thinking, here in Newfoundland, a

commission could control it - nationally, I'll go back to prior-1949 days when

we were a nation, but provincially, that is another possibility.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

If you would be so kind as -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Very well, Sir, carry on.

DR. HULAN: I have been musing on the idea of

something like that because I happen to be on the Rails to Trails Committee.

MR. FUREY: You make a good point. Maybe some

kind of - you say the NCC looks after Ottawa and all of that surrounding area.

We have a Pippy Park Commission looking after this particular one. Maybe there

could be a linear park, you know -

DR. HULAN: I cross-country ski and, by the way,

in the wintertime on this final thing we would not allow skidoos, only

cross-country skiing, you see.

MR. FUREY: I'm not sure I agree with you,

because a lot of Newfoundlanders - you see, in Quebec these trails work

beautifully. You wouldn't believe the revenue that is generated by the skidoo

trail.

DR. HULAN: It is tremendous.

MR. WOODFORD: Twenty-five thousand (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: I went through your district last

year, Mr. Woodford, through the Sir Richard Squires Park, the Grenfell run; it

was just spectacular.

DR. HULAN: There is tremendous potential here

to open up our Province, to (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: The only thing I say to you is, I

wish people would refrain from public commentary using bits of information that

they have. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as we all agree. The

government is very concerned about this. We are on top of it, trying to unravel

and unbundle the complex issues that fall out of the policy direction to create

a linear park, and we want to get it right. We don't want to do it half-assed.

DR. HULAN: I deal with it certainly every week

because the rail bed goes right through the beautiful Codroy Valley, and there

are people coming to me on a continuous basis asking if they might develop this

little bit of land.

MR. FUREY: Dr. Hulan, let me tell you

something, now. Since we declared a freeze, and since we declared that it is our

intention to proceed with a linear park - I was going to say national linear

park; wouldn't that would be wonderful - do you realize we have had 1,200

separate requests from businesses?

DR. HULAN: I'm not surprised.

AN HON. MEMBER: A great Province.

MR. FUREY: Yes, it is a great Province, but

you've got to get it right.

AN HON. MEMBER: I agree.

DR. HULAN: I have one more issue I would like

to raise.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Hulan, we'll get back to you,

Sir. You've already gone over your time by almost double and we will get back to

you at another time.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman, if it's on the Rails

to Trails, I don't mind if he wants to have a concluding question.

DR. HULAN: I will get to it later. There will

be a few minutes, I'm sure.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you.

My colleague, Mr. Byrne, had to leave. He did have

a couple of specifics in there; he wasn't too worried about that, but he just

wanted me to ask you one straightforward question, I guess, and that's on the

historic site agreement. He just wanted the status of that, an update on it.

MR. FUREY: Historic site? The tourism

agreement?

MR. SHELLEY: Specifically dealing with historic

sites, I think.

MR. FUREY: Sure, let me take you through it.

Why do I not just table this? Can I table this?

MR. SHELLEY: You could do that.

MR. FUREY: This shows the Southern Avalon

project - Dr. Tuck out at Ferryland. You know that the previous government cut 5

per cent on all agreements so that balanced out to $2.3 million. The current

government sustained that cut because of the budgetary problems they are having

there, but the agreement, and I guess this is what is left to come, was $7.4

million with a $2.3 million cut so you have a real balance of $5 million.

MR. SHELLEY: He wanted to know what was left.

MR. FUREY: Here is what was left. In the

Southern Avalon there is a remaining balance of $1 million to be spent. That is

for the dig out at Ferryland.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is what will be spent?

MR. FUREY: That is what will be spent at the

end. St. John's Early Town, there is $300,000 which is also an archaeological

dig. Boyd's Cove which is the Beothuck

Interpretation Centre is $1.1 million.

That is the total to be spent. Trinity which is the Ryan building, the trade

exhibits Admiral's Point has $375,000, the visitor's centre exhibit centre at

Bonavista has $75,000, the Northern Peninsula has $145,000, and the Deer Lake

Interpretation Centre where we added on a

section to promote the Northern

Peninsula - have you seen it?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. FUREY: Apparently, it is very good. I did

that for the member. He wanted some money spent in his district. Pointe Amour

had $900,000. Now, that is the lighthouse project, the renovations there, in

Southern Labrador. The Seamen's Museum had a big cut, s-e-a, they have a lot of

seamen on display there. That took a substantial cut, actually, and that is

unfortunate. The community museum project which is a series of projects around

the Province, $860,000, and general

interpretation $110,000, so it is read into

the record for you, anyway.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay, I will get it from that and

pass it along to him.

Just to make a brief comment on the railway line, I

concur with the minister that it should be done right, taking your time to do

it. But there is so much interest and so much potential - you can let your

imagination go wild with this one, there are so many people who have so many

ideas on it. I really look forward to at least seeing it get started and

developed. This whole portfolio of Tourism is one that I am really excited

about. I have always been, and I have talked to the former minister on a couple

of things and I thought I would bring it up here instead of going into

specifics. Bud has clarified a few things I was going to ask. Basically the

estimates are fine with me.

As far as tourism goes, and I will use my own

district as an example because I am more familiar with it, but I would like to

relate it to the rest of the Province, really. And I brought it up with the

former minister, as I mentioned. But the idea of theme routes - and, I mean, you

don't have to be an expert in tourism, and I have talked to enough people and

watched it over the years.

I refer to my own district, the Baie Verte

Peninsula. We have a sixty-kilometre, forty-mile route that leaves the

Trans-Canada there. And it is bad enough with the signage on the road. When you

go through Deer Lake there is a sign that says where Grand Falls is and when you

come from Grand Falls on the other side it tell you where Deer Lake is. The Baie

Verte Peninsula is right in the middle and it is not even mentioned until you

get there.

MR. FUREY: I wanted to mention it but the

member for Deer Lake wouldn't let me.

MR. SHELLEY: I will have to fight him, too, I

guess.

MR. FUREY: Are you serious there is no sign?

MR. SHELLEY: No, there is nothing. As a matter

of fact, I have had people from St. John's, in-laws, relatives, coming to my

district for the first time, missed it and they had to stop at Springdale to ask

where Baie Verte was.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Shelley, that is not a bad

thing, that the in-laws can't find you.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, that is the only positive

thing about it. But, in all seriousness, I was really astounded to stop - I

never think about it, because I know where I'm going when I head there.

MR. FUREY: But isn't the Dorset Trail sign

there?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, the Dorset Trail sign -

MR. FUREY: But people sort of don't know what

that is.

MR. SHELLEY: Now, this is the point I am

getting to, the whole signage thing. I mean, it is good enough for me that I

know where I am going, but I have talked to tourists, and even more over the

last few summers - by the way, I try to do my vacationing in Newfoundland; I

think it is some of the best - Gros Morne and all around. I believe that more

Newfoundlanders should be doing that and I think they would if they knew what

was out there. Newfoundlanders don't know what we have here, and that's the bad

part of it.

There is the theme route idea, which I would like

to bring forward again today and I am going to keep bringing it forward as often

as I can over the next two or three years. And I will use the Baie Verte

Peninsula as an example, as I said. Tourists - I mean, let's face it, they come

here in their big vehicles and although they have some major plans when they

come to the Island of Newfoundland like Gros Morne and so on, they also do ad

lib touring, let's call it that. I have caught them at the Baie Verte Junction

asking: `Oh, what's down there?'

All we have for the Baie Verte Peninsula, is a

small, brown sign that says: `Dorset Eskimo Site - 83 kilometres' and you can

barely read it. I mean, that's the problem - that's the sign that is supposed to

attract tourists to the Baie Verte Peninsula.

MR. FUREY: That is a national sign, is it?

MR. SHELLEY: Pardon?

MR. FUREY: Did you say, a brown sign?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, just a small, brown sign that

says: `Dorset Eskimo Site - 83 kilometres'. Now, just out of curiosity, I have

even gone up there purposely on nice, sunny days and met tourists and I've asked

them: Have you ever considered going down to the Dorset Eskimo site? and they

ask: `Why? What's down there?' Then they say: `Drive 83 kilometres to that

site?'

I said, for example: `Fifteen kilometres down the

road there is a salmon hatchery, it is beautiful; you can go in and see that -

great stuff. Just a little bit further down the road there is a beautiful

provincial park' - that nobody knows is down there, none of the provincial parks

have advertised it, as far as I am concerned, and then you have twenty-two

communities. And, I mean, White Bay - there are, for example, the communities of

Westport and Seal Cove. I would like to see, for example, when I talk about

theme routes, major signs for our districts, for the Bonavista area, anywhere.

Because when tourists are driving by, I really believe they do ad lib touring

along with their major routes.

If you had a major sign, and this is just as an

example - somebody brought into my district a sign that says `Iceberg Alley'.

And it certainly is, you can go down there any day during the summer and see

icebergs ten stories high; I have seen them down in Seal Cove and Westport - and

that is not talked about. But the point is, there is no tourist information, and

I would like to see a theme sign for the turn-off to the Dorset site or other

such roads that extend out into the Province, and also a chalet to provide

information for tourists; and in this case, you are talking about twenty-two

communities with nothing whatsoever along the highway to tell people where they

are going.

I know there are all kinds of ways of marketing and

advertising, but when you are driving along the road you are not going to turn

off on to a road that says 83 kilometres to a Dorset Eskimo Site. Although this

is just very general, I think this department should really start looking at the

theme route - I don't know how you want to word it, but a theme route along the

highway that tells you the points of interest down the roads of the Province. We

have so much to offer and we haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg.

MR. FUREY: Let me cut you off now because you

have made some good points, I don't want to lose some of your thinking.

We have a major consultant study under way now

which will report to us in sixty days on general themed routes throughout the

Province and we want to move on that. You made a good point.

MR. SHELLEY: In sixty days?

MR. FUREY: Yes, and the study will come in that

will say, here are the realities, here are the areas that need some help and

here is what we should be doing. Incidentally, in my own district and in Mr.

Woodford's district, we have an area called the Viking Trail - that didn't

happen overnight. There has been a lot of sweat, blood, tears, anger, confusion,

argument over getting that, but I think, Rick, it is fair to say they got it

right. They are doing some terrific work there, and north of there, and it is

bringing everybody together, Mr. Shelley, that's the trick in this whole area.

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: That's right. The Viking Trail is

(inaudible) -

MR. SHELLEY: That is a huge one.

MR. FUREY: It is, but they have really

conquered the whole business of co-operating, and that, believe me, was a big

issue when I first landed on the Northern Peninsula fifteen years ago as a

teacher. I tell you, it was a big issue. What you're saying about the turn-off

and so on, I will investigate that with Works, Services and Transportation. I

think that is most unfair. I think you are quite right; it, too, is a beautiful

part of the Province. I've spent some time in La Scie and in Baie Verte in the

summertime, and like you, I always spend some money touring around the Province.

Sometimes I get called away in the winter the odd time for a bit of golf but

that has happened very rarely in the last ten years of my life. So I, too, spend

a good deal of time here.

Let me tell you about resident trips, about

Newfoundlanders travelling to see Newfoundlanders. We define a resident trip as

somebody who travels 80 kilometres and stays overnight. That is a definition of

a tourist, too, when we say a resident trip we categorize that as a tourist. So

a Newfoundlander travelling, say, from St. John's to St. Anthony, spending

overnight, we follow all that, track it and track our numbers. There were

2,146,000 of those inside the Province, in 1992. At the end of the calendar year

1993, it was 2,274,000. So it grew by nearly 6 per cent from 1992 to 1993, in

dollar value, that being Newfoundlanders spending $310 million in 1992 and the

increase went up to $330 million in 1993. So there are a lot of Newfoundlanders

moving around and visiting each other. I think that is terrific, and it is a big

part of the Ours to Discover campaign that's paying off. Have you seen that

campaign?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MR. FUREY: Let me tell you something else:

Bristol Communications which handled our agency of record for three or four

years, it was the former Saga, then became (inaudible), then became Bristol.

Their advertising was nothing short of spectacular. Now, I heard that in the

consuls and the embassies around the world, that I've travelled in my portfolio

as industry minister - `The Rolling of the Sea', that catchy tune.

AN HON. MEMBER: Fantastic, yes.

MR. FUREY: And the advertising - let me tell

you something else: the new agency of record, Target, I don't know if you're

familiar with some of their work - they do the current Air Nova commercials in

black and white on television which I think are just spectacular. I think

they're great. Now, there is a divergence of opinion, my deputy and I argue over

this, but I just saw their shortcuts on their television commercials. And they

have started a new campaign called, `Imagine That.' It is taking bits of

history, characterizing them in colour, wrapping new phrases around them like

the Far East of the Western World, that kind of thing. A spectacular shot, one

of the finest, most beautiful photographs I have ever seen of Gros Morne, where

their catch phrase is, `Take a walk in our park, we're twenty times older than

the Rockies.' So Target Marketing has done - is it fair to say fellows - a

brilliant job in my estimation and I'm just a Joe Q citizen, an ordinary guy

looking at it from the outside with a little bit of drama experience.

In Maclean's Magazine you see this - and

every one of them ends with the phrase, `Imagine that.' This particular one is

the colourful characters of St. John's. They are talking about the houses at the

Battery and across the harbour and `imagine that' and we have positioned them

beautifully. I don't know if you've seen them in Time Magazine for the

last six weeks - gorgeous. `Take a walk in our park.'

MR. WOODFORD: Western Brook Pond?

MR. FUREY: Did you see that photograph? Isn't

that a stunning photograph? It has the cloud in between the fjords.

MR. WOODFORD: If you were anywhere in the world

and looked at that, you'd have to go.

MR. FUREY: Here is another, a shot of - would

this be Cape Spear?

AN HON. MEMBER: No, the Southern Shore, I

think.

MR. FUREY: The Southern Shore and it is

highlighting the Newfoundland Dog. `It's a land with a strange and startling

beauty, reared up into sunshine and storm, thousands of inlets, coves, guts and

bays carved from 10,000 miles of coastline, a land that lives by the sea - no

wonder our dogs have webbed feet. Imagine that.' It's just catchy stuff, it's

good stuff - `like a duck to water', that particular -

AN HON. MEMBER: In Maclean's and Time ?

MR. FUREY: That's in Maclean's and

Time . We are in National Geographic this year, are we not?

AN OFFICIAL: No.

MR. FUREY: There wasn't time. We are in

Discover - anyway, we're into a whole range.

MR. SHELLEY: A lot of them, yes.

MR. FUREY: Let me tell you this, we have

switched our marketing strategy, too. We have shifted a lot of our dollars out

of the Boston States - what our grandparents and parents would call the Boston

States - the New England Seaboard, into the Ontario market and into the Maritime

market. We think there is a big draw back home there, and I think they are right

to shift.

It happens, also, to complement the weak Canadian

dollar because the strong American dollar is going to automatically cause an

influx of new dollars. It's at - what is this morning's - $1.40?

MR. SHELLEY: It also encourages Canadians to

stay home.

MR. FUREY: To stay home, as well, because our

dollar is devalued across the border. So, it is going to be a banner year for

tourism - I think it is.

MR. SHELLEY: I think so, too.

MR. FUREY: If we can straighten out some of

these strikes and so on that are happening on the West Coast with the ferries. I

know my colleague, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is working

on that this morning. That kind of stuff can really hurt fellows - really hurt.

Oh, let me tell you the non-resident traffic. I

gave you the visitation, so I might as well give you this. Out-of-Province trips

were 268,000 in 1992 - and we're doing something right, it grew to 290,000 in

1993, for an increase of 8 per cent out-of-Province traffic. Remember, most

jurisdictions in Canada were in a negative position, as far as I can recall.

Newfoundland grew in a recession, in the fishery (inaudible) areas, with all

that bloody negative television we get from CBC nationally all the time, we

grew. That had a value. It went from $128 million to $139 million over that

one-year period, from outside traffic, new money, $11 million.

MR. SHELLEY: An $11 million increase.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shelley, we're trying to

restrict the questions to ten minutes per member because we can always get back

to each member the second time and the third time and fourth time. One of the

problems we have been experiencing in the last couple of meetings is that our

minister, because of his total exuberance for the success of his department, has

been taking longer at his answers than we moved the question. Nevertheless, I am

going to have to go to the next member of our committee. We will get back to

you.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman, could I just touch on

one point before I leave it - the Dorset Trail. Have they organized themselves

into a committee much like the Viking Trail Tourism Association?

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Just recently?

MR. SHELLEY: Actually, they are trying to

organize themselves, I should say, and that's where the problem lies. I am

continuing with that, too. They are not organized.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Woodford and I had to beat

people up to get them into the Viking Trail Tourism Association because, as you

know, everybody has their own point of view, their own business, their own

strategy, but once we got them together -

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Boy, I tell you, they are on a fast

track, though, aren't they, Rick, to growth?

MR. SHELLEY: But it is in the makings, the

strategic plan for -

MR. FUREY: If I can help in any way, or the

department can help you in any way, I just didn't want to leave that point

hanging. If you see a role for us, please let us know.

MR. SHELLEY: I will be talking to them in the

very near future and will convey that to them.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Young.

MS. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is

certainly a pleasure for me to be here this morning. Mr. Tulk's misfortune of

having to be away from here was my good luck.

I have been involved in tourism in my own district

and around the surrounding area through the Discovery Trail Tourism Association,

and through dollars from Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador that association

developed a strategic plan for the area. Unfortunately, there are no dollars to

hire a co-ordinator to implement that program, so I'm just wondering what we can

do there; because I did travel the Viking Trail last year and it was really,

really exciting to see how far they have come in the implementation of their

plan. I would like to see the Discovery Trail Tourism Association develop as

strongly as they have.

There is also a move, as well, for Discovery Trail

to get together with the Terra Nova's Discovery Trail Tourism Association and

the Terra Nova National Park. It is really exciting out there, and I guess we

are blessed to have such a wonderful superintendent with the Terra Nova National

Park.

The big concern, though, is the fact that we need a

co-ordinator to draw it all together, because all the people on the committees

are volunteers, with the exception of the Terra Nova National Park. I also want

to compliment our government on providing ENL with tourist personnel there.

MR. FUREY: We have just put one in Clarenville

to service that area. In fact, he is our accommodation specialist, Mr. Bob

Vincent, but we are going to move more into development and project development.

MS. YOUNG: That is what we need there.

With regard to all the wonderful things that have

gone on, it is probably the most interesting, and I guess, the most beneficial

industry right now to our Province. Everything else seems to be going through a

lot of changes, especially with the fishery, but the interest in Newfoundland

from other parts of Canada - they look at us as being so unique and our culture

is so different.

I was a host mother to Canada World Youth

participants and I found, when they decided to do a cultural show, the kids from

Malawi could do their thing, the kids from Newfoundland could do their thing and

it was strictly their own culture, but what we call the Canadians had no idea

what to do. They didn't know how to present themselves as Canadians, because it

is such a hodgepodge, and there was certainly a lot of envy for the

Newfoundlanders. They envied the position we were in, and the Malawians. So we

have a unique culture which we must protect.

I understand there is something else, too, in your

department and that is the sustainable tourism plan?

MR. FUREY: The Adventure Tourism Strategy, is

that what you are taking about?

MS. YOUNG: It is sustainable tourism. Is that

with the Adventure Tourism Strategy?

MR. FUREY: That is part of the Adventure

Tourism Strategy.

MS. YOUNG: I want to know now, how are you

going to allocate the funds, I guess, for all those specific interest groups for

the 500th Anniversary celebrations?

MR. FUREY: That is an intriguing question. The

master plan of the John Cabot Corporation was just accepted by Cabinet two weeks

ago. We budgeted $1.12 million in our budget this year in anticipation of a

Government of Newfoundland to give effect to the organization of this master

plan and to bring it to life over the next three years.

They are talking about a lot of incredible things,

a stamp being struck for the Province, the tall ships coming here. At Bristol,

they are laying the keel of the Matthew, a replica of the Matthew, in three

weeks time, I think, or a months time, and that will sail to Bonavista from

Bristol. There is a whole range of things that will require a lot of volunteers,

a lot of effort, a lot of ingenuity, and a lot of Newfoundland know-how; but

that agreement has to be put in place first and we are working on that now.

There will not be bags of money for community

groups. We want to drive this through the volunteer system as much as possible.

I think 1966 was Come Home Year, one of the biggest events in the history of the

Province, and that generated immense economic activity. We think, conducting

this, as we have asked the Prime Minister's office to do, as Canada's national

celebration occurring in Newfoundland for the year 1997 can reap immense

benefits, bringing the airline industries onside, seeking private sector

participation.

All of those kinds of things are going to be worked

out by this committee led by Miller Ayre, the Chairman of the Cabot Corporation.

It is a terrific board of directors with Barbara Crosbie, Aidan Maloney,

terrific Newfoundlanders and Labradorians participating on this board.

There will not be a one-time bag of cash for

events. There will be events, and they will be structured all over the Province

and there may be some seed money but it is going to be driven by volunteers and

driven by the communities. I think that is the concept so far, but having said

that, there are going to be some spectacular events taking place in 1997 in all

parts of the Province as well.

MS. YOUNG: There is a lot of expectation out

there that big money is being thrown left, right and center.

MR. FUREY: Well, you do everything in your

power to dampen that expectation.

MS. YOUNG: I will do that; I have already been

talking to a number of people.

MR. FUREY: Incidentally, much of our money will

be targeted through international marketing. Remember, Cabot was an Italian and

we are attracting the Italian community of Canada to participate in this. We see

lots of overseas possibilities for visitors coming in here; we are attempting to

engage Royalty as part of the festival. The tall ships, we are working on now,

to come in through St. John's and Corner Brook and these areas. I mean, this

attracts national attention, there are some very big international events we are

chasing to put here as well, but I am not at liberty to discuss all of them

because you just set up expectations, you know.

MS. YOUNG: Another thing I want to ask about -

MR. FUREY: But do me that favour, Ms. Young,

and tell people that there are no bags of money, that this is our celebration

for 500 years of our discovering this place as Europeans, and the onus would be

on us to generate the activity, the excitement, the festivals, and everything

that we can, but the Cabot Corporation will be there as a support system, as

will governments, municipally, provincially and federally.

MS. YOUNG: With regard to the cruise ships - we

had our first cruise ship into our district last summer, and the problem with it

is, it was not well-planned-for in the district, and I don't think the residents

made much money from that particular event, so we need to be more on top of it

out there.

MR. FUREY: Your cruise ship industry?

MS. YOUNG: Yes, and we are planning to set up a

committee to deal with that.

MR. FUREY: Good.

MS. YOUNG: I also want to -

MR. FUREY: Let me tell you, the cruise ship

industry is a growth area for us. We have targeted it along with convention. I

think when I was minister three or four years ago, I recall we had something

like four visits. Last year it was up to thirteen, we are projecting twenty-one

this year, twenty-one separate cruise lines coming in to ports of call. Are

there six of them in Corner Brook or eight?

AN OFFICIAL: I am not sure what it is.

MR. FUREY: A couple at St. Anthony and other

areas.

MS. YOUNG: Further, with regard to the rail

bed, I am very pleased that you are proceeding in a manner that will probably

reap the greatest rewards but it will take a longer process to do that, because

in my district there is some concern from the people in the forestry industry as

to their ability to use the rail beds if it is developed into a linear park. I

don't know what I can say to these people.

MR. FUREY: A multi-use purpose is a real

concern.

MS. YOUNG: That's right.

MR. FUREY: I get it from Environment and Lands,

from municipalities, from the forestry sector, from Mines and Energy around my

rear end all the time about portions of this which they have and they want

access for mineral prospecting so, yes, it is a problem; it is one of those

complex problems that falls into the net in this big issue of how we deal with

the linear park.

MS. YOUNG: I noticed when you -

MR. FUREY: I should welcome the former minister

here now, so if you want real answers you can direct them back there.

MS. YOUNG: I must say, yes, he was always

available for answers as well.

MR. WALSH: I have heard from inside that you

are doing a really good job because the speaker couldn't be turned completely

off.

MR. FUREY: I see, okay. Is the caucus over now?

MR. WALSH: Yes.

MS. YOUNG: I will just let my time go to

somebody else, then; I don't think I have used it all up. I am sure there are

other people who want to speak, but I just want to say it is very exciting to

see all the wonderful things going on in this Province. I was at Hospitality

Newfoundland and Labrador conference when they discussed the promotions that are

going on through Target and it was just great. It makes you feel proud to be a

Newfoundlander and we just hope that people will come here, spread the good word

and have others come.

MR. FUREY: Thank you for your comments, and

with deference to the former minister, I can only hope that if the Premier is

listening somewhere and he is shuffling his Cabinet and decides to put me in

Tourism and Culture, it would be like dying and going to heaven.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Young, you say you will

forfeit the balance of your time for somebody else.

MS. YOUNG: Sure.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have had your ten-minute

allocation and have used eleven-and-a-half minutes, so, in view of the fact that

Mr. Shelley was questioning the minister in the first event on behalf of his

colleague, Mr. Byrne, who had to leave, and Mr. Shelley has informed the Chair

that he wishes to ask just another couple of questions, I'll go back to Mr.

Shelley now and from there to Mr. Whelan.

MR. SHELLEY: I am going to be very brief now -

I'm trying to be. I thought I was going to be brief the last time, but I guess

when you see such enthusiasm in this department - everybody seems to be

enthused, and that's a good sign. I'll try to be as specific as I can. There are

three things I'm going to mention.

First of all, outfitters - what plans are there for

the summer for any new licences? Is there a possibility of a new licence as it

refers to big game licence to go with outfitters? Are there any plans for this

summer for an extension of that to include new outfitters camps in the Province?

MR. FUREY: Shall we go back and forth?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, please do. That was the

original intent, anyway.

MR. FUREY: I can tell you with certainty there

will be no new outfitters. I have put a freeze in place on all new licences for

at least two years.

MR. SHELLEY: Two years?

MR. FUREY: At least two years. I am not going

to have done to the moose and caribou population what has happened to the

Northern cod. It is like four-legged Northern cod in our woods. We have no idea

what the population is. Nobody can tell me, as minister responsible for

wildlife, what the population is out there except in selected pockets where our

wildlife people have done some surveys, and I am thinking particularly on the

South Coast where over an eight-year period there were two-and-a-half moose per

square kilometre and it is down to .5 per square kilometre now. That sends alarm

bells off in my head.

I am asking government, and we have approved in

principle, a major comprehensive study. I just have to work out the financial

details of where we get the money for that now, and I hope to go forward on that

soon. I know the previous minister was working on it as well.

I am not prepared to licence new outfitters or to

increase licences. In fact, I'm only prepared to decrease licences as Wildlife

tells me certain sectors of the Province and areas of the Province are in

trouble. So, to answer your question straightforwardly, no new entrants, no new

licences, and decreases for the future until I get a handle on the population.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, that is why I wanted to ask

the question. Now I will be frank. I agree with you as far as controlling the

wildlife population is concerned. I am all for that. Anytime, I would support

that, but I think there have been some problems already. Again, it is better to

use your own district because you are more familiar with it, and I will use

that.

We are down on the Baie Verte Peninsula, which is

Zone 14, I think, of the moose area. The population seems to be good. I am only

guessing at that, it is speculation, of course, and what I have been hearing,

but there is not an outfitters camp on that peninsula. Meanwhile, on both sides,

towards the Humber Valley area and the other side towards Green Bay, there are -

and I don't know what the complication is; that is what I would like to ask your

department to check out in particular. And I will follow up with it because it

really bothers me that it seems as if there are outfitters camps all around us

and somebody has the right, or we are being cut off - there is a complication

somewhere. But the Baie Verte Peninsula takes in all that area down there, you

know the geography of it, and there is not one there. It seems they are crowded

into certain pockets of the Province.

MR. FUREY: But at the same time, bear in mind

that the take-up rate domestically is 100 per cent in that area. There is a high

demand for usage by private residents in your area.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, I know.

MR. FUREY: So, if I have to put an outfitter in

there I am taking from the locals to give to a special person.

MR. SHELLEY: I realize that, but I still think

it can accommodate one outfitters camp in that area.

MR. FUREY: And you may be right. Talk to me in

two years.

MR. SHELLEY: In two years, yes. Okay, that's it

for outfitters camps. I had to ask the question.

MR. FUREY: It is a good question, an honest

question, and I say to you that I can't look any Newfoundlander or Labradorian

in the eye and tell him what our moose and caribou population is. I can't do it.

And if I can't do it, I am blindly giving out licences, and I am not prepared to

do it.

MR. SHELLEY: I agree with you. I'm glad you are

looking at it in that light, and the only suggestion I make is that I think it

should be looked at, it should be reviewed around the Province against where the

outfitters camps are, and it should be asked: are they being concentrated in

some areas too much and not enough in other areas? That is the point I'm making.

MR. FUREY: And the reality is, if the

comprehensive study comes back saying there are more moose than we ever thought

there were, maybe then we can increase licences and look at your area; but if it

comes back with what I think it might come back with, that there are some major

problems, we are going to have to start cutting camps out.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay, very quickly again on the

historic sites, and this is just a specific final question. I mentioned earlier

about the Dorset Eskimo Site. Last year it was embarrassing, I tell the minister

now, and I've spoken to the former minister about this; we had people - and I

happened to be in the district at the time. In Fleur de Lys there is a Dorset

Eskimo Site. Now, the carvings are in the rock, it is a beautiful thing to see,

and everybody should see it. A family from Ontario was there visiting, and did

drive all the way down after having seen that small sign. And there is a

boardwalk going in there that has rotted. It was embarrassing - their little

girl was with them, and she fell through the thing, and I don't know if she

broke her leg or fractured her leg or whatever. It was embarrassing because this

is a Newfoundland historic site, and it was unsafe for anybody to even go down

there.

MR. FUREY: The deputy just whispered in total

agreement with you. He said it's shocking, and I can only tell you that if there

is a new historic resources agreement, he also whispered to me that that is a

priority area, that we would love nothing better than to get in there and

correct that, put a proper little

interpretation centre there, make the visit

worthwhile and meaningful. So I commit the government to that as a priority.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay, I thank you for that. That

was the last question I had, and just to clue up, by the way, it would take very

few dollars, just a small boardwalk and just a small

interpretation centre, as

you said.

MR. FUREY: Is it really dangerous there now?

MR. SHELLEY: Well, I went down to see it just

after I heard the news and it broke in our local paper out there. Basically, it

is rotted wood.

MR. FUREY: You went to see it. It's not very

good, eh?

MR. SHELLEY: No.

MR. FUREY: We will send somebody in to have a

look.

MR. SHELLEY: It is just an old boardwalk that

could be fixed very easily.

MR. FUREY: We will see if we can't do something

with that.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

In conclusion, to cut the time as short as I can -

I am really interested in this particular department.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman, I can't let the hon.

member off the hook that easily. He has to talk about the ski club out there.

MR. SHELLEY: Oh, I had -

MR. FUREY: That is just ridiculous!

MR. SHELLEY: I have to do that, but I was

trying to be brief, because he was giving me signs here. I said it would only

take five minutes, and I was right to the end of it. If you would just give me

the two minutes, if you wouldn't mind.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: That's why I was trying to rush,

and that was the thing I was waiting for since I started this, but you got me on

a little rush here.

Just to add a few comments - because the minister

is very familiar with it, being a sports person and having a physical education

degree, actually, and background, and I am sure he will concur that downhill

skiing is one of the fastest growing family sports - and that's the key, family

sports - in this Province.

What is happening in Baie Verte at Copper Creek

could be a model for not just skiing but anything in this Province - to see the

people go out and cut that hill, to see a 75-year-old lady across the street

from me come over and say: `I am not going to ski, obviously, but here is my

$225,' I mean, that's commitment of people. And of all the citizens I went to -

as the minister knows, I was on the committee earlier, I was the vice-chairman

of that committee when I first moved back to Baie Verte six years ago. I said:

`Boys, look, we have the two things that no government can give you which is the

snow, we don't need snow machines and we have the hill and the atmosphere is

there. It is just great, it would be a small type (inaudible) which would

enhance Marble Mountain and enhance Clarenville, and you could show it as a real

role model of a good, solid project that will take care of itself. I will just

give you one little (inaudible) I guess the association will give you later, but

we just had the bunny hill opened this year and they opened it late. We had

3,000 passes through here; we rented the skis in shifts so that people wouldn't

argue so much at the bottom of the hill, which is fantastic, and I really hope

the minister will support us on that, as he did earlier.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Shelly, I can tell you that I am

really excited about it, too. I remember speaking to the Chamber of Commerce out

there last year and committing $2,000 from the Department of Tourism and Culture

for a little bit of seed money. Was that last year or the year before?

MR. SHELLEY: The year before.

MR. FUREY: Yes, and Tourism never delivered so

I delivered it through Industry, Trade and Technology. I think they even gave

you the cheque, but we also gave you another $5,000 this year which you took out

to them -

MR. SHELLEY: And very much appreciated.

MR. FUREY: - and I also met, just about a month

or maybe a month-and-a-half ago, with Mr. Wiseman and Tom Rideout's brother -

what's his (inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible) brother-in-law.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible) lots of lies about you

anyway.

MR. SHELLEY: - and your (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Good, excellent. Keep those bribes

coming. But on a serious note, you have a lit hill, too, you ski in the

nighttime up there, I was just blown away by that.

MR. SHELLEY: The mines supplied lights for the

hill.

MR. FUREY: Yes, it's terrific. The community

spirit, this is what Mr. Woodford and I were talking about earlier, in terms of

getting people to co-operate, form themselves together, see a common goal, focus

on it and go like the dickens at it.

Baie Verte, I can only tip my hat to them, I can

support them as much as I can. They sent me a proposal by the way and they have

Tony Abbott involved who was a terrific fellow on the Marble Mountain Ski Hill.

He is now involved with this hill at Copper Creek and you have a real winner in

this fellow, boy, I tell you that - and he happens to be a personal friend of

mine as well, but that notwithstanding, he did some terrific work at Marble

Mountain, so you have a winner there. And the community, I can only tip my hat

to them, praise them as much as I possibly can.

I have sent their proposal through the SIID

agreement now, it is a fair chunk of change they are looking to get, but I mean,

if we can do it all and it makes any sense, because through SIID we helped

Marble, through SIID we helped White Hills and I am trying to build a case now

to help Copper Creek. Mr. Blundon who is an avid skier, whispered in my ear that

they are actually sitting in their cars in lineups waiting to use the hill up

there, and that's just terrific, and that may be a real, central lure for the

winter tourism, you know; it will help the hotels and the restaurants and the

gas stations and the economy generally, and I commend you for your work on it,

too. You have just been terrific. Everywhere I go I hear people say you have

been a real dynamic supporter of it and I give you full marks.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shelley, Mr. Minister? Mr.

Minister, have you any specific questions you would like Mr. Whelan to ask you

when it comes his turn?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Whelan.

MR. WHELAN: Just a few points, Mr. Minister.

I have a question mark here behind one set of

figures, page 174, under Tourism Development, 2.3.01, line 10, Grants and

Subsidies, $205,500 and I was just wondering if you could possibly elaborate on

that - how specific -

MR. FUREY: Yes, we are just going to dig out

the specifics for you. The Tourism Research Institute which is operated -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Oh I am sorry - okay. There are

$54,000 approved for local information chalets, where we provide operating

grants of $5,000 each, to twelve chalets located throughout the Province. One of

those is yours, it is in St. George's.

DR. HULAN: Yes.

MR. FUREY: That is the beautiful, new one we

built two years ago?

DR. HULAN: Actually, it is built for

Stephenville, it is behind St. George's, but -

MR. FUREY: Right, but they promote Cape St.

George -

DR. HULAN: Oh yes.

MR. FUREY: - as far as I can tell; so each of

those little chalets gets a $5,000 grant and that has been historically the case

for a number or years. Is Dunville - no Dunville doesn't (inaudible). Anyway, I

can't think of any others right off. The Corner Brook one, Signal Hill Tattoo

which, as you know, has been conducting from Signal Hill every summer, where we

hire students to go through the Tattoo. That's $30,000 mostly tied up in

salaries, and under there you'll see a grant made to Marble Mountain for

operating, corporation for operations, of $121,000. Also, the LSPU Hall - no,

that wouldn't be under that one; I'm sorry.

You want to hear where these little chalets are

that we support?

MR. WHELAN: Yes, sure.

MR. FUREY: Twelve.

MR. WHELAN: There are only twelve, yes.

MR. FUREY: And that is because we don't have

major provincial operations throughout the Province, so what happens is these

little communities or towns or municipalities take it upon themselves to do it.

We give them a one-time grant and supply them with literature.

St. George's, as I mentioned, Gander, Corner Brook,

Marystown, Springdale, Grand Falls, St. John's, Labrador West, Goose Bay,

Goobies, Hawkes Bay and Southern Labrador.

MR. WHELAN: So $121,000 of that goes to Marble

Mountain as well.

MR. FUREY: Yes, that's the operating grant

that's sustainable over the years that goes into Marble Mountain, which helps

them run their office, secretarial help, heat, light, board meetings, that kind

of thing.

MR. WHELAN: Okay.

With regard to the White Hills facility, what role

does the Provincial Government play in that facility? I notice quite a bit of

money is spent in Corner Brook, and White Hills is noticeable by its absence.

MR. FUREY: White Hills is 100 per cent private.

MR. WHELAN: I see - okay.

MR. FUREY: However, a considerable amount of

public money has gone in over the past ten years for development and so on. In

fact, just recently we put an equity position in there for $500,000 through ENL.

We, as we would do for anybody, promote all of these destinations in our

brochures, in our advertising, in our marketing program, as well, in the winter

product, along with the airlines; but bear in mind, when we put dollars into

Marble Mountain, everybody in the Province owns Marble Mountain. Not everybody

in the Province owns White Hills, and there has been a substantial amount of

public money gone into White Hills - a substantial amount of public money - 90

per cent federal, but lots of dollars. But we are trying to engender the private

sector to carry on and grow and produce, and it had a good year, by the way.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Ms. Young wanted to say something?

MS. YOUNG: I was just going to say it is the

best year, I think.

MR. FUREY: The best year this year, yes, and it

is good for the economy of that area but, I say to you, it is 100 per cent

private sector but a good deal of public money has gone in there.

MR. WHELAN: There was another question I wanted

to ask you. Wilderness and ecological reserves, you have appropriations provided

for the planning and establishment of such reserves. Are there any active plans

at present -

MR. FUREY: Pardon?

MR. WHELAN: Are there any active plans at

present to create wilderness reserves on the Avalon Peninsula? The reason I'm

saying this is because in a number of areas -

MR. FUREY: How about George Street? That would

make a good wilderness reserve, would it not?

The only one that is in active consideration is the

Lewis Hills in Serpentine.

MR. WOODFORD: City Hall.

AN HON. MEMBER: Well, that's wildlife, yes.

MR. WHELAN: There is an area on the south side

of the Trans-Canada, out around Roaches Line, from Brigus Junction along the

track to Ocean Pond and to the south towards Colinet. It is a beautiful area, a

natural area for a wildlife setting.

There was a problem in there in that they have

clear-cutting. The Department of Forestry is clear-cutting a lot of it.

MR. FUREY: The Department of Forestry is?

MR. WHELAN: Well, they are allowing it to be

done. There is a small area in that general vicinity -

MR. FUREY: Who is cutting it, Don?

MR. WHELAN: There are a number of local millers

down probably around Bay Roberts and towards Harbour Grace, that area.

The area was a beautiful spot, and -

MR. FUREY: I don't know why we are - we should

be farming our forests, not mining them.

MR. WHELAN: That's true.

It is like a man-made blight when you go in there.

I have been in there since the 1950s and what was once a beautiful, natural

setting is now just indescribable to look at it. There are people who have been

in the area since the 1050s, who go in and walk through it just to enjoy the

setting, and I know they must be tormented mentally.

I was wondering if there was any consideration, or

if the possibility existed to have a look at that? As far as I am concerned it

is a beautiful area.

MR. FUREY: I will take that question under

advisement because you have laid out a specific piece of geography and we will

have to check it out. I know WERAC and the wilderness reserve group in our

planning department are looking at the Lewis Hills in the Serpentine area.

MR. WHELAN: The small ruin is an area in there

and what is going to happen fairly soon, and they have plans for more clear

cutting, is the clear cutting is going to go right to the wilderness area, there

is going to be no buffer zone.

MR. FUREY: What I would like for you to do is

put down on paper in a letter to me, as acting minister, the exact area. Define

it for me and we will certainly look into it. With every environmental thing we

do, and we do this on the basis of environmental protection, every environmental

thing we do has an economic consequence. Bear that in mind.

MR. WHELAN: Well, relatively speaking, the

entire Avalon Peninsula area does not have enough timber to support one

good-size mill so the financial consequences should not be all that great.

MR. FUREY: I agree. I am just saying to you

that if we protect it those sawmillers are out of there.

MR. WHELAN: I realize that.

MR. FUREY: Those jobs are gone. And that's

fine, if it were the right thing to do we should do it.

MR. WHELAN: I am just talking about one

specific area. There are other areas probably on the other side.

MR. FUREY: That is why, Mr. Whelan, you need to

define that area on paper for me, and I will be happy look at it.

MR. WHELAN: Okay. There is just one other

question, getting back to the rail bed, do you have a time frame in which to

work?

MR. FUREY: When I get back from France, I hope

to have a formalized position paper to announce to the Province.

MR. WHELAN: Okay.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman, do you think we might

be able to break for five minutes?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, that is not a bad

idea. I originally put that down on hold because I thought we were having a

caucus meeting.

MR. FUREY: If you don't mind I am just going to

dash out to the washroom and come right back.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will recess for five minutes.

Recess

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Since we returned from our recess we decided there

would be a slight change in our agenda here. We are going to go to Dr. Hulan and

when he has completed his line of questioning for the minister we will turn it

over to Mr. Woodford. We man conceivably clue up the proceedings at the end of

that time.

Dr. Hulan.

DR. HULAN: As a first comment, I am very pleased

that you have considered an approach, that the Federal Government are making the

500th year celebration a national celebration. We must think nationally and

globally if we are going to go where we want to go in this Province, and that

applies in every aspect of our life, as far as I am concerned, including

Agrifoods.

I was very glad to hear the Minister of Industry,

Trade and Technology mention the word farming; that is a step in the right

direction. I know you have mentioned it before, Sir, but I just thought I would

throw that out.

The two questions I have, so that the support staff

with you will hear the questions, are on the extension of the season of certain

parks. Last year, Barachois Pond Park was identified as an extended season park.

In a letter previously I raised the fact that it created a problem for tourists

coming on the evening crossing because Barachois Pond Park is about two hours

from Port aux Basques and arriving at Barachois Pond Park, they had to set up in

the dark after mid-September.

Now, there is no question that Barachois Pond Park is

an excellent park, one of the cadillacs in the Province. The Grand Codroy Park

is also an excellent park, fully equipped, and only about twenty minutes from

the evening crossing, so they can be at the Codroy Park and set up before dark.

I just wanted to raise that, and I know in my letter

to the minister last year over the issue I got a very positive letter back

saying that would be taken into consideration in the coming year. I just wanted

to raise it again to make you people aware of it, and I don't really need a

comment from it. I know it is being looked at.

The other area is more important, however. We have a

very, very serious problem in Western Newfoundland right now, and that is the

wood supply of the Corner Brook mill and, in particular, the Stephenville mill.

There is a fairly large area of wood standing in the area of Little Grand Lake.

It is part of the model forest, and it also encompasses the pine marten reserve.

As you know, gentlemen, and the minister knows, we

will have a meeting some time later in Paris, I think it is. He suggested that

we all go where he was going for the meeting, because I said that it was

impossible for us to leave it too long, so he suggested that -

MR. FUREY: It wasn't Paris I suggested, it was the

French Riviera.

DR. HULAN: Oh, the French Riviera.

Anyhow, gentlemen, there is a serious problem there.

Right now, the Stephenville mill has two years of wood supply left - that's it -

and we have to address that problem with regard to some coexistence of loggers

and pine marten.

We had a very hot meeting in Stephenville a week ago

Tuesday past, and I was able to convince, as it came out in the paper, the

loggers not to go out into the pine marten reserve and kill all the pine martens

this past week. That would solve their problem, as far as they were concerned,

but again I wanted to raise it here where I have everybody in front of me so

that we can be all thinking about how we are going to handle that problem.

MR. FUREY: Tell me a bit about the pine marten,

Dr. Hulan.

DR. HULAN: Well, the reserve is there, has been

there for a number of years -

MR. FUREY: We are going to visit that, are we?

DR. HULAN: We will visit the pine marten reserve.

I am told by the loggers there are very few pine

marten there; they very seldom see a pine marten. Other people tell me they have

multiplied, so I don't know. We had people from Wildlife there at our meeting,

and the gentleman who was there couldn't really give us an indication of what

the population of pine marten is there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: He is just explaining to me that - this

is new stuff to me.

DR. HULAN: Yes, I know it is.

MR. FUREY: I don't propose to be an expert. Mr.

Jenkins was saying that when clear-cutting happens, I guess that wrecks the

habitat for them?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. HULAN: There is also the argument that the

pine marten habitat is in older stands, which is not necessarily correct, and

that is where the problem lies. There is evidence now, I am told, that as soon

as the wood starts to show signs of decay and death, the pine marten will move

to newer stands.

So what the loggers are asking is: Why aren't we

allowed to go in and cut into the older stands? the pine marten are already gone

on. This is where the department is coming from.

MR. FUREY: I would like to hear Mr. Woodford's

view of this, too.

MR. WOODFORD: I have always found that the pine

marten is supposed to love the older timber stands. The older timber stands in

this Province are not cut, can't be cut - there is no access to them. That is

Abitibi. You mentioned one last night - Harbour Deep - a prime example of

over-matured timber. We have more over-matured timber between Baie Verte and

White Bay. Why aren't they in there? The question I always ask is: Why aren't

the pine marten there? If they lose a habitat, usually they gravitate. When you

look at a bear or moose or caribou, they gravitate to an area, a habitat, that's

good for them. Why don't the pine marten go? Because, as far as I'm concerned,

there are very few pine marten. Now, I would love to see more, all kinds of

them, and the Little Grand Lake area is one reason why, as far as I'm concerned,

the argument - everyone I have asked, simply put, they just can't give me a good

argument for it.

MR. FUREY: Are there any left?

MR. WOODFORD: There are some -

DR. HULAN: There is evidence that in the major

pine marten reserve on the West Coast, just west of Corner Brook, there may be

200 there.

MR. WOODFORD: And all around them there are

trappers, especially around the Hughes Brook area and all up around on the back

part of Sheffield, the back part of Birchy and so on and down through Grand Lake

itself. So I don't know where the protection is, for it.

DR. HULAN: I raised it because I know the

gentleman opposite will be thinking about that in the next number of weeks

before our meeting, because it is getting to be a very serious problem. We have

another problem that involves the Minister of Forestry moreso, that is, we are

completely devoid, basically, on the West Coast, of Newfoundland, of spruce, and

40 per cent spruce is necessary in order to get a good paper fibre; that's

another problem that will come up. But the pine marten issue is a major one. I

like animals very much but I also like to see my constituents putting food on

the table.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

MR. FUREY: Do I conclude or deduct from that, that

you want the reserve to remain?

DR. HULAN: I absolutely want the reserve to

remain, and I firmly believe, knowing a little bit about animals, that there is

a co-existence that can be developed having a model of control cutting and the

co-existence between loggers and pine marten, and I think it can be done.

Loggers who know a lot more about logging and the woods than I do, tell me: yes,

indeed, they believe it as well. So I think we have to explore all of these

ideas. It is also in and near the model forest. And the model forest is exactly

that, it is to demonstrate that you can indeed have co-existence between species

of trees and animals and everything else and harvest them, but it is not being

used on those terms today, we haven't gotten to that point and again, we have to

explore that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Dr. Hulan.

DR. HULAN: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Young has indicated that she has

a question she wants to ask before we turn it over to Mr. Woodford, by leave of

Mr. Woodford, because the Chair has already recognized him. Mr. Woodford? Ms.

Young.

MS. YOUNG: Thank you. I would like to have some

information regarding the Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage Foundation. I think

that is a very worthwhile project because we see so many of our old buildings

just being torn down in rural Newfoundland and I think it is very, very

important that we continue to put funding into the foundation. I see that it has

remained the same at $98,500 since last year; it is still in the estimates for

this year. Is there any thought of increasing the funding for that foundation?

Is there much of a demand?

MR. FUREY: If I could, Ms. Young, I would ask the

deputy to deal with that, because he has been dealing with that issue

specifically, himself.

MR. JENKINS: The Newfoundland and Labrador

Heritage Foundation is established pursuant to the provisions of the Historic

Resources Act of the Province. It is an arm's length organization with the Chair

at present being Dr. George Story of Memorial University, I think now since

retired, and the funding for the foundation has been at that level for some

time, but some years ago, and I don't know the exact period of time, we received

think, was the federal minister.

That funding was earmarked for the foundation, the

money was given to them over several years, they invested the funding and, at

this stage, the foundation is making money off their money and they are using

that, for the most part, when they designate Heritage sites to provide funding

to the applicants from the interest they are making from the capital funding

deceptive and that would perhaps help to look after the staff person they have,

and some travel for members of the foundation who meet on a regular basis, but

the funding for the Heritage properties comes, for the most part, out of this

pot of money they have invested, and it goes back to 1975 when we celebrated the

25th Anniversary of Confederation and the Federal Government provided, as I

said, $1 million. It was intended to be for a Heritage village but couldn't be

decided, so we gave it to the foundation and the foundation are using the

interest from the investments that they make on that money to help. We would

love to have more. That goes without saying. Our heritage and our culture are

very significant and important to us in the development of tourism. It is a

piece of the infrastructure. We are fortunate, I guess, in the way that with so

many reductions the foundation remains intact, and the funding that we provide,

but they could use a lot more; there is no doubt about that.

MS. YOUNG: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Chairman, page 183, 4.1.06,

under Capital, Park Planning and Development, Professional Services - this is

under the Canada-Newfoundland Co-operation Agreement - there was $167,000

budgeted last year and only $50,000 spent. You can go into Purchased Services,

asking the same question. There are only two headings there, 05 and 06, $167,000

versus $50,000 spent, and yet there was $2,053,000 budgeted in Purchased

Services with only $350,000 spent. What would be the cause of that? Why wasn't

it spent?

MR. FUREY: There are specific reasons for that. Do

you mind if I ask the ADM, he has the note there in front of him, to give you

the -

MR. BLUNDON: Last year we had allowed for the

provision of Fitzgerald's Pond Provincial Park to be completed. Through all of

the cuts that materialized over the last year or two it became obvious that

Fitzgerald's Pond couldn't be done, so the monies were allocated to complete

Dildo Run, an additional $275,000, and the remaining funds in Fitzgerald's Pond

which, like I said, just couldn't complete that one, and were transferred to the

Cape St. Mary's Bird Sanctuary.

In terms of the Professional Services amount of you

see there, because of delays and so on the Cape St. Mary's Bird Sanctuary

interpretation master plan is only now being finalized, and that's why you see

the money in 1994-1995 versus 1993-1994.

As I indicated, where you saw the $2,053,000 budget in

1993-1994 for Purchased Services, that was caused by delays in getting Dildo Run

and Fitzgerald's Pond done.

MR. WOODFORD: So the monies allocated this year

under Purchased Services, which would be $1 million, versus the $350,000 spent

last year, you will still have a shortfall there of approximately

$700-and-some-odd thousand.

MR. BLUNDON: That is basically the cut in the

agreement.

MR. WOODFORD: That is the cut in the agreement?

MR. BLUNDON: And that's parks component. We lost

about $4 million in total out of a $20 million agreement. Two million dollars

came out of historic sites; $1 million came out of provincial parks, and the

other million came out of an assortment of other programs.

MR. WOODFORD: Minister, you mentioned earlier that

there would be a freeze on all outfitters camps for the next two years, a freeze

on licences to outfitters, and a freeze on licences domestically, anywhere in

the Province I would say, (inaudible). I stand to be corrected on that one, but

I think you included any increase in licence whatsoever anywhere with regard to

wildlife in the Province.

On page 186 of the Estimates, under 4.2.05, Wildlife

Monitoring, last year there was funding allocation there for - look at salaries

alone, $292,600 but yet $145,400 spent. That would be for various ventures for

the monitoring of ptarmigan, caribou and other species, and I would say the

other species would include moose. Now, if that problem - that existed last year

because I asked questions last year of Mr. Hancock in Wildlife and there were

some assessments being done because I knew of some being done up around our

area. Those concerns were there then, they were there the previous year and they

are there now moreso because of what you said this morning. They are more

serious then ever I would say or at least you're suspect. So why wasn't that

money spent? When you go down to Professional Services and Purchased Services,

which would be monies that would be allocated for such a monitoring system, why

wouldn't that money be spent?

MR. FUREY: Now there are some good reasons for

that and I will just pass it over to our financial director because a lot of it

involves cost-sharing and take-up. But just on your other point, I think for

years we have been giving out licenses blindly, to be perfectly frank, and that

isn't a criticism of any government or this government, it is just a criticism

generally that we haven't been doing it right. I think we really need the data

to start looking at it properly and do it right, otherwise we are just blindly

marching forward just killing perhaps a resource without really even knowing

we're doing it. So that's the reason why I want to proceed on a comprehensive

study and I think it is the right way to go.

On that particular issue you mentioned, there are some

specific reasons and I will ask Rick to take you through them. Do you want the

specifics of them?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, because that would - unless I'm

reading it wrong, that would encompass the monitoring of some of those herds.

MR. HAYWARD: The wildlife monitoring activity

consists of probably twenty or thirty projects ranging from projects under

comprehensive Labrador dealing with George River and Red Wine, parallel

agreements with the national parks in the Province, projects with Abitibi-Price,

the Department of National Defence low-flying in Labrador and mostly they are

parallel or cost-shared agreements. The amount of resources that go to each

project would depend on the forecast they put in the year before, then the

resources that would go into that project in the next summer, and these are

estimates at best and Treasury Board gave us the authority to transfer around

our money. So in last year there was $1,194,000 budgeted and we spent

$1,050,000. So the difference in that would be that some projects didn't get off

the ground, that partners might have pulled out of projects, that it might have

been spent on Professional Services instead of Salaries. So the intent of the

program, based on the estimates, I think were met. But all of the projects just

didn't get off the ground, and if you look at the historical allocations of this

wildlife monitoring, you should see that these projects have grown over time. I

think two years ago it might have been around $600,000 and it's moving. So there

is more research going on and the Province is spending more and I think it is a

result of the cost-sharing and function.

MR. WOODFORD: So is it possible, then, looking at

the estimates for 1994-1995 and when you look at the minister's concerns with

regard to this - and I agree with him, totally, on this particular subject - am

I led to believe that some of those fundings in the estimates for this year will

be used for the actual monitoring and the assessment of the herds?

MR. FUREY: In fact, no, what I'm proposing to do

is come for a separate vote to do this right and in order to do that, I have to

take a full budget to Cabinet, get it approved, bring it through Treasury Board,

then table it in the House and that's what I intend to do. I just don't have the

numbers now and didn't have them at Budget time because it is quite a

comprehensive thing.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, it is, because if I can recall,

in 1988, I believe there was some talk of doing a very comprehensive study and

count at that particular time.

MR. FUREY: Rick, just to point out to you, on page

188, 4.2.08 under Wildlife Research and Inventories, when you say monitoring,

that is really where we check out the herds and the expenditures are used to

look at pockets around the Province, and that is where we studied the South

Coast. If you look at that budget $686,100, all of that was taken up and used,

and they could have used $3 million.

MR. WOODFORD: So there were pockets dumped?

MR. FUREY: Oh, yes, and it is on that basis that

we are saying, hold on here, there are red flags going up. What is going on on

the South Coast that the animals have gone from two-and-a-half animals per

square kilometre to half-an-animal over an eight-year period?

Incidentally, two years ago, the total allowable

licenses were 31,000. There is a 10 per cent threshold for outsiders or

outfitting use. In the last two years we have reduced that from 31,000 to 29,500

and that has caused a corresponding reduction to outfitters. We have taken 173

licenses out of the system in the last two years and I am recommending more in

the next little while.

MR. WOODFORD: Out of the outfitters?

MR. FUREY: Out of the total system we have taken

from 31,000 to 29,300 and that 10 per cent threshold therefore drops

correspondingly and what that equates to in outfitting licenses is a reduction

of 173 outfitter licenses over a two-year period, and there are more coming.

MR. WOODFORD: I asked the question last year -

there has been some concern expressed to me over the last few years with regard

to some outfitters in the Province not utilizing their assessments and quotas.

They were holding onto them and somebody else needed them and so on.

MR. FUREY: Let me tell you, I announced a policy

three years ago in Deer Lake that was called `use 'em or lose 'em' and they had

a two-year period of grace. I am transferring them this year. This is the first

year I am moving permanent transferred licenses on historic use patterns, and

where there are people who, for two or three years, had twelve licenses and

didn't use them, I am taking them away. I am going to give them to people,

reward people, who have used them, who have sold them, who have generated

marketing opportunities, and that is the way we should be doing it.

Now, there are going to be some angry people, but

that's life.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, they are sitting on licenses

that are not being utilized.

MR. FUREY: Well, they are not going to be sitting

on them anymore, Rick, I can tell you that.

Incidentally, I should point out, that since we

announced that policy three years ago, we have gone from 60 per cent utilization

to over 90 per cent and we have doubled the value from $3 million to $6 million,

just by instituting that policy. If you don't use them you certainly can't sit

on them and call them equity to your company. That cannot be done anymore. I can

tell you that we are going to transfer them and I appreciate your support in

that regard.

MR. WOODFORD: It should be done as far as I am

concerned. There are dollars tied up just because of greed, that's what I call

it.

I have lots of other comments, but I have to comment

on the caribou herd, and you are familiar with the point I am going to make.

Down your way, just off Cow Head, you can't move in the fall and winter because

of the caribou herds moving closer to the road and so on. We have what I call

the Hampden Downs herd and probably tied in with some of the Buchans herd and so

on, moving down now into the Sir Richard Squires Park not only in the wintertime

but in the summertime, staying down around in the summertime. Now, we have the

caribou along the Trans-Canada up along Junction Brook, around the Marianne bog

area, moving to their old habitat, in their old crossing areas there, moving

right back in.

There definitely has to be an increase in caribou

herds in those areas because there is no license allocation for the Hampden

Downs herd, none whatsoever.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Woodford, we expect that may well

be the case. You are quite right, in my own district they are coming right down

on the coastal plain now and the herds are actually standing right on the edge

of the highway.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, right on the highway.

MR. FUREY: It is fascinating to see. We are just

waiting for some more intelligence and research, from Shane Mahoney in

particular, who has been monitoring that situation. If it is the same herd that

we think it is, in other words, that we are not counting different herds - if we

are not double counting, if it is the same herd, it may well be a candidate for

increased licenses and more activity.

MR. WOODFORD: It is a shame if it is not utilized

because what is happening is there is poaching taking place and they are down

there being harassed. One time you had to go up on the downs or on the back of

the hills and you would see thirty-five or forty caribou but you can go in there

now and see 100 caribou any day.

MR. FUREY: The assistant deputy tells me that when

we seek and get approval, hopefully, for this comprehensive study that is the

first study, the first, and if we get what we think is coming out of there, we

will make provision to -

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, because if it isn't an

increase, it is definitely a change in their migrating pattern.

MR. FUREY: Habitat, too.

MR. WOODFORD: Habitat, yes.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, true, because one of the

biggest problems that forestry has now, I know over in our area, and especially

MR. FUREY: Eating the seedlings?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes.

I was going to say, with regard to moose, I mean,

moose feed on young seedlings, and where thinning is taking place and so on, and

silviculture programs, moose are having a field day, so I wanted to make

reference to the pine marten. If you can't go in and cut because you're going to

do away with the pine marten, if you can't go in and seed, are we going to do

away with all the moose? So there is a relationship.

MR. JENKINS: A good point, Mr. Woodford, because

we recall, particularly in the Sandy-Badger area, several years ago where there

was a lot of new silviculture, the paper companies were having significant

difficulty in keeping the growth because of the moose, in particular, so our

Wildlife division bowed to the wishes of the industry to some extent and reduced

the number of moose in the area by increasing quotas.

Just two weeks ago, Shane Mahoney had to attend a

meeting in the Grand Falls - Windsor area where 250 people came out to discuss

the issue, because right now the number of moose per square kilometre in

Sandy-Badger has diminished dramatically, and we have reduced the numbers of

licences from 600 or 700 down to 250, so you are always in a balancing act and

how much it can sustain. Sustainable development is the mood of the day and you

have to keep that in mind.

MR. WOODFORD: Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I am going to

stop my questioning there, and I suggest that you call 1.1.01 to 4.2.08

inclusive.

On motion, Department of Tourism and Culture, total

heads carried.

MR. FUREY: Thank you all very much for

accommodating my concerns. I really appreciate it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before you all leave, I would like

to take the opportunity to thank the minister and his officials for coming this

morning and for answering questions in the manner in which they were answered.

As the Chair, you can appreciate the frustration of my

not being in a position to ask questions on some of those types of issues that I

have been concerned with for a number of years, but I will say, and I say most

sincerely, that I am quite impressed with the attitude that has been displayed

by the department here this morning, particularly as it relates to the

recognition of the importance of doing a thorough census of our caribou and

moose populations. I have recognized, and so have some of my colleagues, for

some time, that maybe the population levels are in trouble, and maybe we have

been indiscriminately giving out licences without knowing what we are doing. I

am pleased to see that we have had a look at this and that the minister is

considering bringing to Cabinet a recommendation that we get funding to do a

thorough and comprehensive census.

I am also pleased, as well, to see the importance that

the minister and the department places on tourism. I believe that the Department

of Tourism and Culture is probably the future, will represent the very future of

this Province.

I come from the district of Lewisporte where,

combining the Beothuck

Interpretation Centre in Boyd's Cove, with the projected

movement of tourists between Lewisporte, St. Anthony and Goose Bay - this is an

issue that we discussed some weeks ago - with a world class marina, funding for

which has been requested now through the infrastructure program, I believe that

will materialize. I believe we will see the development of Lewisporte as the

tourist capital of this Province, and I look forward to working very closely

with the minister, or whoever his successor happens to be, and the officials of

that department.

MR. FUREY: Do I detect a slight tinge of bias?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just a very slight tinge of bias,

Mr. Minister, yes, very slight.

I would like to thank the committee members, as well,

for their co-operation with the Chair, for the manner in which the meeting has

gone. I thank Elizabeth Murphy, Mr. Oates, who has been recording what we have

said here today, and Krista Gregory, the Page who has been delivering coffee to

us all morning.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman.

Yes, Mr. Minister.

MR. FUREY: May I also thank the officials who are

here this morning, and tell you that they have been operating under extreme

pressure.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Operating under duress?

MR. FUREY: Extreme duress and pressure, because we

had an ADM retire three months ago; we have had another ADM move out to look

after the Cabot celebrations, so you had a deputy and three ADMs where you now

have a deputy and one ADM, and they are covering all the bases with remarkable

speed and diligence. They punch long hours, and sometimes they get whacked over

the head becau

Document details

Collection	Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees
Citation	1994-04-20
Type	committee
Volume / chapter	committees_standingcommittees_resource_ga42session2_1994-04-20_rc-tc_.htm
Language	en
Format	html
Source	PROVINCIAL
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