Manitoba Hansard — 30 June 1978 (Sitting 75, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-75

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

-... .. • • • ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS VOL. XXVI No. 75 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker 10:00 a.m.Friday, June 30, 1978 Printed by P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

Manitoba Legislati ve Assembly Thir ty-First Legislatu re Membe rs, Constituenc ies and Politi cal Affiliati on Name ADAM , A.R. (Pete) ANDERSON , Robert (Bob) AXWORTHY , Lloyd BANMAN , Robert , Hon. BARROW , Thomas A. BLAKE , David R. BOSTROM , Harvey BOYCE , J.R. (Bud) BROWN , Arnol d CHERNIACK , Saul M., Q.C. CORRIN , Brian COSENS , Keith A., Hon . COWAN , Jay CRAIK, Dona ld W., Hon . DESJARDINS , Laurent L. DOERN , Russell J. DOMINO , Len DOW NEY, James E., Hon. DRIEDGER , Albert EINARSON , Henry ENNS , Harry J., Hon. EVANS , Leona rd S. FERGUSON , James R.

FOX, Peter GALBRAI TH, James GOURLAY , Douglas GRAHAM , Harry E., Hon. GREEN , Sidney, Q.C. HANUSCHAK , Ben HYDE, Lloy d G. JENKINS , Willi am W. JOHNSTON , J. Fran k, Hon. JORGENSON , Warne r H., Hon . KOVNATS , Abe LYON , Sterl ing R., Q.C., Hon . MacMASTER , Ken, Hon . McBRYDE , Ronald McGILL , Edward R., Hon. McGREGOR , Morris McKENZIE , J. Wally MALINOWSKI , Donald MERCIER , Gerald W.J., Q.C., Hon . MILLER , Saul A. MINAKER, George ORCHARD , Donald W. PARASIUK , Wilson PAWLEY , Howard , Q.C. PRICE, Norma Hon . RANSOM , Brian , Hon . SCHREYER , Edward R.

SHERMAN , Louis R., Hon . (Bud) SPIVAK , Sidney , Q.C. , Hon . STEEN , Warren URUSKI , Billie USKIW , Samuel WALDING , D. James WILSON , Robert G. Constituency Ste. Rose Springfield Fort Rouge La Verendrye Flin Flon Minnedosa Rupertsland Winn ipeg Cen tre Rhineland St. Johns Wellingto n Gimli Church ill Riel St. Bon iface Elmwood St. Matthew s Arthur Emerso n Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone Kildonan Dauph in Swan River Birtle-Russe ll Inkster Burrows Portage Ia Prairie Logan Sturgeon Creek Morris Radisson Charleswood Thompson The Pas Brandon West Virden Roblin Point Douglas Osborne Seven Oaks St.

James Pemb ina Transcona Selkirk Assiniboia Souris-Killarney Rossmere Fort Garry River Heights Crescentwood St. George Lac du Bonne t St. Vital Wolseley Politi cal Affiliati on "" NDP P.C. Lib. P.C. NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP NDP P. C. NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP NDP P.C.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, June 30, 1978 Time: 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER, Ton. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Before we proceed I should like to apologize for the tardiness on the printing of the Order Paper. We seem to have had a little bit of technical difficulties . Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing "' and Special Committees . . . • • .. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs . HON. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker , I should like to make a statement to the House with respect to the financial report of the Manitoba Lotteries Commission for the year ending March 31 , 1978. According to statute, Mr. Speaker , this report is to be completed and in the hands of the Minister by June 30, and tabled within 14 days thereafter , if the House is in Session . Because of a temporary vacancy, Mr. Speaker , in the position of accountant at Manitoba Lotteries Commission, this report has not been completed and we expect that it will be completed within a month to six weeks . Mr.

Speaker , if the House is still then in Session, I undertake to table that document at that time. -(Interjection)- This is not normally , Mr. Speaker, been a problem since the House has normally not been in session at this period of the year . But, Mr. Speaker, I do make that undertaking, that if the House is in session, it will be tabled as soon as received, and if not in session , then at the next session of the Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills.

Before we proceed with the Oral Questions, I have waited for a short while, waiting, hoping that 1 would have the honourable members concerned in the House, but seeing as how it is the end of the month I did,a little over a week ago , take a matter of privilege under advisement. On Thursday, June 22, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge raised a point of privilege relative to remar ks made by the Honourable Member for Inkster. I refer members to Pages 4156 and 4157 of Hansard of that date .

The subsequent explanation given by the Honourable Member for Inkster did not satisfy the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge , at which point I, as Speaker , took the matter under advisement for a perusal of the records of Hansard of June 22 as well as June 15. After a very careful review of the speeches of both the members concerned , I must state that I failed to find any substantial evidence to support the contention of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge .

I also feel that I should point out to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge the rulings on matters of privilege as recorded in Erskine, May 18th edition, Page 343, which states : " The matter of privilege must be raised at the earliest opportunity." I find that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge has based his matter of privilege of June 22nd on a statement taken from a speech of the Honourable Member for Inkster of June 15th. I believe he should have raised the matter of privilege at a much earlier date.

I must, therefore, rule the matter of privilege raised by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge to be out of order. However, in my perusal of Hansard of June 22nd and the speech of the Honourable Member for Inkster, I do find remarks made by the Honourable Member which might have caused concern to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge who, not having the benefit of the printed word in front of him, might indeed have been uncertain of the exact remarks and consequently erred in referring to Hansard of June 15th.

In fact , I find the remarks of the Honourable Member for Inkster in the first line of the second paragraph on Page 4156 may indeed be untrue, wherein he says, and I quote : "He says that I am a liar." 4683

Friday, June 30, 1978 have carefully perused the remarks of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge of June 22nd and April 11th, and fail to find any instance where the member has used such words as are attributed to him by the Honourable Member for Inkster nor, in my humble opinion , have 1 found such inferences. There are numerous citations in Beauchesne , May , Bourinot , which list unparliamentary expressions.

In particular , I refer honourable members to the bottom line on Page 419 of Erskine, May 19th edition , and I quote : " A member is not allowed to use unparliamentary words by the device of putting them in someone else's mouth ." I therefore request the Honourable Member for Inkster to withdraw the remarks of Page 4156 and I suggest he should apologize to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge for having incorrectly attributed such remarks to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge when I turned to him and said , "Will the honourable member believe me?

" He said , " I don 't believe you ." It does not appear on the Hansard record but that is what he said and in that respect , I said , " Then the honourable member says I am a liar ." I merely now say that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge said he did not believe me with regard to the sincerity of my remarks and I accep t the Speaker 's ruling. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. EDWARD SCHREYER (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker , I have before me an Order-in-Council which has to do with $6 million of capital author ity and borrowing being carr ied out , based on four previous years' capital authority which was not spent. I would like to ask the Min ister of Finance if the Order-in Council 631 of the day before yesterday is the $6 million which is supposed to relate to the Manitoba Water Services Board, whether that amount of $6 million that will be spent , presumably in the current fiscal year, is being raised on unused , unspent authority of the period 1973 to 1976 inclusive. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance .

HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Well , Mr. Speaker , as the Leader of the Oppos ition may be familiar with, the practice has been of the Manitoba Water Services Board , the M anitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation, and I guess probably other corporations that borrow short -te rm from the government for their operations , periodically and from time to time collect all the short-term borrowings together and make it a long-term issue. What this order does is take the past short-term !endings to this particular body and turn it into a long-term loan which amo unts to the $6 million , and also , Mr.

Speaker, there has been one other change , in that from time to time the interest rate on it will fluctuate according, and automat ically now, with the prime bank rate . With regard to whether or not as last year , it comes out of this Uncommitted Carry-Forward Capital, no, I'll check on it; I don 't believe that it's in any way related to the Capital Carry-Forward , but I'll double-check it to make sure . Had it been in that , I would have included it in the breakdown of the Carry-Forward which I gave to the House in a formal way at an earlier date .

I'll double-check it, but the member can rest assured for the time being that there 's no relationsh ip between that and any Capital Carry-Forward. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker , the next question would be more appropr iatel y add ressed to the Minister of Agriculture, but in his absence to the Minister of Finance then , and that is to ask whether the $6 million of Capit al spending which has been approved by Cabinet the other day is to be related to the $3.5 million which the Minister of Agr iculture advised this House during his Estimates , would be the Capital spending requirements of his department , or is the $6 million in addit ion to the $3.5 million, or does it subsume it? MR. CRAIK: Well, the order that the member has before him, Mr.

Speaker , is the order which collects all the former borrowings . The $3.5 million-plus, whether it's grant or loan , would be for a new program , 1978-79, and on those water services Water Services programs , there 's a third category, and I guess , I think you 'd call it a third category , where the commitment is made this year for cash that will flow in 1979-80 . So there 's really three things here. This one catches up, the former ones convert short-term former into long-term , then there is this year 's cash flow , which is, I think , the three-and-a-half referred to by the Minister of Agriculture .

There is about an equal amount , though , that is earmarked as being available for commitment by the Min ister of Agriculture in 1978-79 for cash flow 1979-80 . 4684 ...

• • .. Friday, June 30, 1978 MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, it becomes technical and necessary to peruse Hansard with respect to the statement made by the Minister of Agriculture. 1 leave that then for the moment and ask the Minister of Finance with respect to another Order -in-Council , passed the other day, which provides for $30 million in Capital Spending to be carried out and authorized by virtue of using last year 's Capital authority voted but not used to the extent of $30 million .

I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if he will check Order-in-Council No. 630 to ascertain whether in fact of the $82 million of Capital authority general purposes voted a year ago, whether $30 million that was not used, is being used by virtue of this Order-in-Council this year . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, it may or may not be, but the total carried forward and committed is $30 million . So whether some of it falls in that, I'll check it and make doubly sure.

But if it is of concern to the Leader of the Opposition that somehow there may be funds spent in 1978-79 that are being brought forward and doesn't show up in the Estimates, we've indicated that the total amount of that is $30 million. The uncommitted amount is somewhere in the order of $38 million and this was gone over pretty thoroughly in Estimates again as late as last night in Room 254 under the Executive Council.

In any event, whether all of the $30 million that has been discussed and referred and debated about here, if it is not all spent and we fully expect that the figure will be around that, it could be slightly less than that, we do not expect to spend any of the uncommitted $38 million, but in any event, whatever the case may be, it will all lapse the end of the 1978-79 year, which is what we've said all along, and it will all be attributed by the Auditor to the current year.

When the books close at the end of this current year, the Auditor will take whatever is carried forward and whatever is new committed Capital and he will charge it against the 1978-79 year. So I want to dispel any concerns that the Opposition may have about somehow this being charged against 1977-78. Such is not the case. We're simply doing what's been done for the last 20 years in Manitoba . The amoun ts of carry-forward Capital under the Leader of the Opposition's government ranged in excess of $100 million and were not committed but were carried forward under

Schedule B. available Capital but not committed. This year, the uncommitted happens to be roughly $37 million or $38 million . If a dollar of that is spent in this year, the Auditor will charge it against this year. The argument is really pretty academ ic because it all comes out at the end of the line in the Auditor 's Report anyway. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, there is no argument involved as far as I am concerned.

I am asking the Minister of Finance for confirmation, that of the $82 million of Capital authority that was voted last year, that in fact in the order of $45 million was spent or committed and $30 million, slightly more , was not spent , not committed, and available for transfer of Capital spending authority which will be spent this coming year, out of last year's raising of authority. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, there would be more than the $80 million . . . MR. SCHREYER: General Purposes . MR.

CIK: .. . there would be more than the $80 million, it wouldn't be just what was voted last year but there was a carry-forward from the year before which you add in altogether all together. But the total amount of carry-forward , part of the $80 million he's referring to would have got spent last year in 1977-78 but the net of it all is that when we came into this current year, 1978-79, we committed $30 million. We did not commit, roughly , $38 million .

The total though that he is referring to, the $80-odd million would have, in addition to that, a carry forward that the former government carried in out of 1976-77 . But regardless of how you look at it, and how you boil it down, it all comes out that that is spent in 1978-79 will get charged against 1978-79 by the Auditor . MR.: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Labour.

In view of the fact that the const ruction industry strike is now in its third month, would the Minister of Labour consider appointing a conciliation board so that the public may be made aware of the demands being made by the Builders ' Exchange , the unreasonable demands, to change working conditions which have existed in this province for many , many · years? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. 4685

Friday, June 30, 1978 HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker , there are meetings going on continuously between the two parties . I don't think it's a case of unreasonable demands on one side any more tn the other, but I think at this point it would be not the wise thing to do to interfere . This is their free collective bargaining that we respect and at this point we have no intention of interfering. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , does the Minister of Labour consider conciliation services and the appointment of a conciliation board to be the interference with free collective bargaining? MRS.

PRICE: Not necessarily, Mr. Speaker, but I do feel that the conciliation services that are being offered by the Department of Labour to the two parties are top rate , and I don 't think we could improve on them at this point. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , is the Minister aware that conciliation services include the appointment of a conciliation board and has never been considered by either management or labour or government, as I understand it, as an interference with the free collective bargaining process.

It's merely a means of getting the possibility of a public report so that the public is aware that the strike is being caused by the Builders' Exchange making unreasonable demands on its employees. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. PETER FOX: Yes, Mr. Speaker . I'd like to direct my question also to the Minister of Labour in charge of the Civil Service.

In view of the 6 percent negotiated and announced wage increase to the MGEA, subject to their ratification , would the Minister of Labour be prepared to recommend to the Cabinet committee reviewing the minimum wages a similar increase for the 30,000 people working at that level? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker , as I mentioned to the honourable member yesterday , that we will be calling a meeting of the Minimum Board and we will listen to what they have to say. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan with a supplementary . MR. FOX: No, Mr.

Speaker, I am directing my question to the First Minister . Since the minimum wages are generally in a unilateral position of having to await the Cabinet decision , even with the recommendation of the alleged Minimum Wage Board , can the First Minister indicate what parameters are being reviewed and how soon those reviews will take place and when the people on minimum wage can expect an increase? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. STERLING R. LYON, Premier (Charleswood): The question was " could I indicate the time ~ limit; " the answer is "no", Mr. Speaker.

I repeat for my honourable friend 's edificat ion a fact with which I am sure he is familiar , the minimum wage in Manitoba is either the third or the fourth highest in Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker , earlier the Honourable Member for The Pas asked me if 1 could provide him with the latest statistics on the number of unemployed employables for the last month for which I had statistics . I can do that , Mr.

Speaker , for January 31 , 1978 as compared to January 31 , 1977, and advise the honourable member at the same time that 1 have more current information and statistics being compiled at the moment which would bring the figure up to approximately March 31 or the 1st of April and I can give that to him as early as possible next week . In the meantime , Sir , the total on Municipal Assistance , which mainly comprises unemployed employables , as of January 31 , 1978 was 4,233 cases , comparing with the figure a year previous of 4,393 cases , for a reduction of approximately 160 cases.

I can make that sheet of inform ation available to the honourable member ; it 's broken down by region and if one of the pages would take it, I would send it over to him now, Mr. Speaker , with the undertaking to provide him with more current information as early as possible next week , to the Honourable Member for The 4686

• Friday , June 30, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker , I have a question.

I suppose in the absence of the Minister of the Environment or the Minister of Urban Affairs , perhaps the First Minister might take it as notice, and that is to confirm whether there are reports of new outbreaks of Dutch Elm disease in the province, particularly along the Winnipeg and Brokenhead River, and to what degree that will affect the extent and damage that would be occasioned by elm trees in the City of Winnipeg, and what steps the Provincial Government may be contemplating to respond to these new outbreaks? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker , I will be happy to take that question as notice for the appropriate Minister. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, perhaps to the Minister of Finance, who could answer this, whether the province has now decided to provide assistance or support to the City of Winnipeg in its Dutch Elm prevention program, considering that it has not yet made any offer or any commitment for this year 's budget? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker , I'll have to take the question as notice and refer it to the Minister of Urban Affairs. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker , earlier this week , the Honourable Member for St. Boniface asked me for a breakdown of the deficit being carried by the Health Sciences Centre which had been reported at $724 ,825.00. The honourable member asked me for the breakdown from April 1, 1977 to November 1, and then November 1 until the end of March of this year, and then the first three months of this new fiscal year .

I can 't give him the breakdown for the first three months of this fiscal year; the figures have not been compiled yet, but the deficit reported in total, the other day in their annual report, was $724 ,825; the deficit as at December 31, 1977 was $234,292, leaving a figure of $490,533 representing the deficit that has accumulated from January 1 through March 31 of 1978. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Health and flows from the answer that he gave to the Member for The Pas.

Given the fact that unemployment levels in Manitoba are running approximately 3,000 higher on a given month this year compared to the same month, 12 months earlier, can the Minister indicate on what basis he is indicating that unemployment - that the number on provincial as well as municipal welfare caseload is less than a year ago, because unemployment, in absolute numbers, is running higher? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would have to ask the Honourable Leader of the Opposition to repeat the question .

I'm not certain whether he's asking me how I account for that, or what the figures in relation to provincial assistance are. I wonder if he would mind repeating it. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Given that, in absolute number terms as opposed to proportion or percentage , that in actual numbers of unemployed, that it is running on a given month this year compared to the same month 12 months earlier - it is running on the order of 3,000 actual numbers of unemployed higher .

Could the Minister of Health indicate whether it is possible that the level of welfare caseload is actually lower , on a month-to-month comparison, than a year ago? Because that was what I assumed the substance of his reply to the Member for The Pas was. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker , the Honourable Leader of the Opposition will appreciate that the figures I was providing were the figures for January 31, 1978 as against January 31, 1977; I ~ do not have the figures for the five months since that time , but I am attempting to obtain them as quickly as possible for the first three or four months of that period, anyway. Looking at January 31 , we are looking at 160 fewer cases in the province , in the tota~ number of eight regions, in total, of approximately 160 on municipal assistance. Now, that fact leaves a number of possible questions and ramifications to be explored .

We're talking here about those on municipal assistance, and we're 4687

Friday, June 30, 1978 talking about January 31, which is five months ago . I would have to ask the Honourable Leader of the Opposit ion if, on the basis of the current information, or more current information that I hope to obtain by next week, he and I could then examine the subject matter that he is pursuing . MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, just for clarification to the Government House Leader ; I believe he indicated informally earlier that we would be going directly into Supply this morning.

I would like to ask for clarification's sake , whether in the afternoon , in the event that we complete Supply , whether it would be the intention, if we do, to revert to bills, the consideration of bills .? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker , it was my intention to first of all, call the Resolution that is standing in my name with regard to the hours of sitting . I don't anticipate any great diff iculty in getting that particular Resolution through ; it's been the pract ice in the past few years to pass it expeditiously .

Then we will be going into Supply to, hopefully, conclude the Estimates that are currently before the House, and it was my intention to not proceed any further with government business once the Estimate or the Supply has been concluded. However , if my honourable friends want to go into Private Members' following that , then the government would be happy to accommodate them . But it would be my intention that as soon as Supply is concluded , that we would adjourn for the weekend . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker , I wonder if I would be allowed to make a comment on the question directed to the Minister of Health regarding the unemployed level . The Leader of the Opposition, in his comments to the Minister of Health , made reference to an additional 3,000 unemployed over the similar month last year. I wanted to indicate that the stat istics , although I think that's probably about the figures that come out of the statistics , that there are also 16,000 more employed than there were a year ago or in that same month referred to.

So what it really says is that out of an additional work force of say 19,000 , that 16,000 out of the 19,000 additional from last year have found work , that there are 3,000 that have not . I want to point out that one of the major points being made by the Federal Government at this time is that Canada's participation rate is growing at a much larger rate, including Manitoba's, of people wanting to get into the work force which is causing a great deal of the problem with regard to unemployment . I simply want to point out that

whereas the 3,000 unemployed difference is higher than last year - I think , about the right number - there are, at the same time, an additional 15,000 that weren 't there last year that have got employment . MR. SCHREYER: Well , Mr. Speaker , since information is always welcome , I did not rise on a point of order .

The statement made by the Minister of Finance is not one which related to any question that 1 had directed , but in any case, Sir , since it has been raised presumably as some point , let me respond by saying that I acknowledge full well that there has been an increase on both sides of the ledger, an increase in$ the numbers employed and an increase in the numbers of unemployed. There is nothing new about that phenomenon and indeed , in the period 1972 to 1974 inclusive, we had larger numbers joining the labour force and being gainfully employed .

At the same time, the increase in actual employment was proportionately and in percentage wise, much higher than even today , or last month, or the month before . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce . MR. BANMAN : Thank you , Mr. Speaker. Several days ago , the Member for Lac du Bonnet asked me some questions dealing with the mov ing of the Massey Ferguson parts distribution centre to consolidate their distribution centres in Saskatchewan . I understand there are some 15 employees involved in this particular facility here in Winnipeg .

Three of them have been redeployed , one has taken early retirement , one has resigned to take employment somewhere else and 10 of the jobs will not have a change in status , I'm informed . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker , I would like to address a question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. The question I asked him about unemployed employables was to assist me to understand the serious negative effects of the government's policy in remote northern communities .

Since the figures given relate only to municipal assistance and not to provincial 4688

Friday, June 30, 1978 1 wonder if the Minister could tell us whether in fact he does have a breakdown of provincial assistance in terms of unemployed employables or whether they don 't keep those particular figures. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. peaker, I can supply the honourable member with figures relative to those on provincial assistance but that doesn 't specifically or necessarily cover the category of unemployed employables.

It covers all those persons who are on provincial assistance by category, whether on mother 's allowance or special dependent care or long-term or short-term disability, categories of that nature . I would not have the figures specifically for unemployed employables . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate whatever figures the Minister has, if he could outline the limitations of those statistics.

I assume that it is possible to get some indication from those figures in terms of the remote northern communities although they would be somewhat incomplete without Indian Affairs ' statistics in that regard to help us understand some of the negative effects of this government's program in those areas. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister of Health for the information that he gave us. It's not exactly what I wanted . I wanted to know the deficit in the hospital for the months since October 24th, let's say November 1st.

Now the Minister has lumped up the full calendar year and the figure was 234,000 . I wonder if that can be broken down further into November and December. Also , I would imagine that the Minister would have at least the month of April now and I wonder if we can have it, at least the deficit that we have under the hospital for the month of April as soon as possible . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: It may be that the deficit for the month of April is available, Mr. Speaker.

It would, of course , be an unaudited figure I'm sure that the honourable member would appreciate that and I'm sure that he appreciates also that in terms of the Commission's commitment to meet all or part of those deficits , the deficit position is presented by the health facilities concerned to the Commission and justification is pursued and then a decision is reached .

That process is better done , I think, Sir, between the two parties involved, the health facility and the Health Services Commission, than under the scrutiny of the Legislature, whether it be under the scrutiny of my honourable friend or myself . I haven 't been enthusiastic about injecting myself into that process which is under way at the present time . I perhaps though could provide him with unaudited figures on the deficit for April. I'll do my best to get a November figure for him . That is probably possible but obviously it was more practical to deal in terms of the annual deficit. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate all these things and I appreciate an answer even more . I'm sure that the Minister, if he wants any co-operation from this side of the House, he would get it. I'd be very pleased to assist him if he wished to see if the hospital can live within a 2.2 or 2.0 percentage average. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minster of Consumer Affairs . MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, earlier this month I took as notice a question from the Honourable Leader of the Opposition with respect to a sign which was posted in the River East School Division, ._ in a new development, stating that a new school would be built on that site. It was the suggestion , Mr. Speaker, of the member that the sign might not conform to advertising standards and truth in advertising because no school had been built on that site. I have had the matter investigated , Mr .

Speaker, and I wish to advise the House that it appears that there was no intention or desire on the part of the developer to mislead the public . At the time the sign was posted , the developer had deiicated the portion of the development as a potential school site and a park site as it is required by law. The developer had checked and t obtained confirmation from River East School Division that this was the potential site of the school in the new development .

The building of the school did not proceed for reasons outlined by the Minister of Education in his response to the Leader of the Opposition on June 19th. From the information we have received , Mr. Speaker, we would conclude that the developer had acted in good faith and when he found that the school would not proceed, he removed the sign 4689

Friday, June 30, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, it would seem as though everything that has been said by the Minister in that reply could be accepted as being basically correct , taken at face value .

But then, in which case, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister whether he would take under consider ation , the advisability of either legislation or some policy change that would give some practical recourse and redress of grievance to those who did purchase, in good faith , a home in that area - or in any area which is in similar circumstance - and which matters do not proceed according to the sales and promotional advertis ing that attach thereto .

It would seem as though no one is at fault and yet property has been purchased , with good money , in a way that does give some people a sense of grievance , and it would seem no practical redress . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs . MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker , the suggestions of the Leader of the Opposition of course will be considered . He would agree , of course , that it's very difficult to ensure that all of the proposals or all of the indications given by the optimistic views of people involved can be necessari ly fulfilled . And he would agree, I think , Mr.

Speaker, that when he, as First Minister of the province, agreed to advertise his province as "Sunny Manitoba ," he would not wish to have been responsible that the sun would shine every day in Manitoba . We believe that since the law, Mr. Speaker , requires that a cer tain proportion of new developments be allocated for school building sites and park sites , and where ther e i s some intent indicated to use those sites for that purposes , it would not be reasonable to restrict the delineation of such sites as having been allocated for that purpose . Nevertheless , Mr.

Speaker , we accept the suggestions of the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: My question to the Minister is prompted only because he used an analogy which would equate acts of God with acts of men. Sunniness or lack of sunniness in Manitoba on a given day or week, for which a tourist may have paid out good money for a vacation, has to be viewed in the context of

an Act of God , but we're talking about a subdivision development and there is really

an act of men , whether it be the developer - and I'm not suggesting that he is at fault - or whether it be the Publ ic School Finance Board , but one of the two groups of men, it's their act which caused the advertisement to be false in the final analysis . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation .

Since the bids are now in on the lots in Inkster Gardens, could the Minister inform the members of the House how many lots were sold to private developers and how many lots were sold to individuals in the Inkster Gardens development? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Housing. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker , I can tell the member that slightly over 60 percent of the lots were sold . Of that 60 percent 25 lots were sold to individuals before they were sold to contractors . I would have to give him the figure of the exact number that the contractors purchased .

I will get that for him and give it to him on Tuesday . MR. PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . A supplementary ques tion to the Minister , who I thank for his answer . Could he inform us whether in fact some stipulation has been put in place to ensure that the private builders purchasing these lots will not mark up the price of the land further in the selling price of the house?

Specifically , will the public be made aware of what the private builders paid for their particular lots, so that a prospective purchaser in six months or so can determine what the price of land was when that person is going to purchase a house? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , the package that is given to people who make application for lots in Inkster Gardens all the lots are listed and the price of the lots are listed in that package . I would be quite willing to table in the House on Tuesday the package that is given to each person as they make application for a lot in Inkster Gardens .

We have nothing to hide regarding our prices . As far as the contractor selling them at much higher prices, I think he'd be very foolish to do so because if he gets his houses too high he won 't 4690 -.

Friday, June 30, 1978 qualify for our program of assistance. MR. PARASIUK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I'm concerned about people coming forward in six months or so who would be purchasing the house, not from the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation, or the lot from the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation , but from the individual builder.

And I think that if the builder , in his selling brochure , was asked to put down the price of the land, that he had to pay to the MHRC, then I think the consumer would be in a very good position to determine what he's paying for land and what he's paying for the exact house itself. Would the Minister agree to check into that? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would agree to check into that for the honourable member. But 1 can tell the honourable member it is not the philosophy of this side of the House or the government to start telling people what they own and how much they should sell it for .

If the man is foolish enough to put the price of his house so high that he doesn't sell it that will be his fault. The price of the land is available to anybody who wants to ask that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: The Minister of Labour, during the course of her Estimates, indicated to the Committee that she would be providing us with further statistics having to do with staff numbers, etc. I wonder if she's in a position to table those relatively soon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MRS.

PRICE: They are just in the process of being compiled now , Mr. Speaker, and I'll have them for the member shortly. MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speaker . One other undertaking on the part of the Minister had to do with the amount of welfare assistance available to people who are working for the minimum wage. We have yet not had a statement of clarification on that one, as well. MRS. PRICE: I believe I did tell the Member for Lac du Bonnet that I would refer that to the Minister of Health, the welfare not being under my jurisdiction. MR. USKIW: Well , Mr. Speaker, it matters not to me who responds to the question.

We had a discussion here on a number of occasions and in Committee of Supply. Both the Minister of Health and the Minister of Labour indicated that they would be prepared to bring that information forward. Could the Minister of Health, then, inform us just what forms of assistance are available to people who find themselves working for a minimum wage but are unable to maintain a household and family? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker , could I ask for a clarification?

Is my honourable friend attempting to suggest to the House that all people working for the minimum wage in Manitoba are entitled to welfare benefits? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker , for the benefit of the First Minister, it was his Minister of Labour that indicated, in Committee, that should incomes be insufficient to maintain household and family, that there is welfare assistance available , and we have been attempting to get a clarification of that ever since . MR. LYON: But, Mr.

Speaker, obviously it would depend on each individual case as to what the circumstances were, and no general answer to my honourable friend's question is possible. 1-lR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker , I would like to ask the Minister of Health whether he can indicate to us whether people, who are on the minimum wage, are eligible for welfare assistance, in any form, and what that amount of assistance is, in what form it is provided? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. 4691 M

Friday, June 30, 1978 MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Lac du Bonnet , I think, is cleverly trying to seduce me into . . . -(Interjection)- It is preferable that it be me and not the Minister of Labour. Perhaps it isn't preferable, but perhaps it more politick. . . . into compromising my colleague, the Minister of Labour, if I haven't compromised her already in this answer , Mr. Speaker, and I don 't intend to be drawn into that web. I was not present at that particular committee hearing .

I am not sure what the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet thinks he got in the way of a promise or an undertaking or a commitment from the Minister of Labour. But I will discuss it with the Minister of Labour and try to determine her inclination with respect to the Honourable . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker , I don't know what the inclination would be on the part of members opposite with respect to seduction.

But let me then ask the government and perhaps the First Minister may want to respond to that - is it the policy of the government to purposely maintain lower minimum wages in order to provide a low-wage work force to the business people of Manitoba , and to, at the same time, provide supplement and subsidy through the Welfare Department to those individuals who are working at the minimum wage? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of going over time , which I think we are ... -(lnterjection) Leave.

I can only say to my honourable friend what obviously passed over his head, but we make excuses for everyone on Friday mornings , that the minimum wage in Manitoba is the third or the fourth highest in the nation today, notwithstanding all of the elephant tears and so on that are being shed opposite in trying to set up a false impression among the people of Manitoba , that they are hard done by with the third or the fourth highest minimum wage in Canada . ORDERS OF THE DAY BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER : The time for questioning having expired . The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, I should like to move , seconded by the Minister of Consumer , Corporate and Internal Services THAT for the remainder of the session , the House have leave to sit in the forenoon from 10:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m ., in the afternoon from 2:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m., in the evening from 8:00 p.m. and each sitting to be a separate sitting , and have leave to sit from Monday to Saturday, both days inclusive, and the Rules with respect to 10:00 p.m. adjournment be suspended , and government business take precedence over all business of the House .

AND THAT for the remainder of the session, the operat ion of sub rule (3) of Rule 88 of The Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceedings of the House be suspended but the report stage of any Bill shall not be taken into consideration prior to twenty-four hours$ following the presentation of the report of the Standing or Special Committee with respect thereto. :. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker , I move seconded by the Minister of Education , that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MOTION presented and carried. SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kvvnats: I would direct the honourable members ' attention to Page 76, Main Estimates, Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs . We are on Resolution 111, Clause 3. Cultural and Recreational Services Division, (

a) Community Recreation Services ,

(1) Salaries-pass - the Honourable Minister. 4692

Friday, June 30, 1978 MR. BANMAN: I wonder if before we go ahead, I have an Annual Report dealing with the Legislative Library and the Provincial Arcves , and I wonder if I could get the page to distribute that to the gentlemen opposite . MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)

(1) Salaries - pass - the Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: This whole area has received a reduction in funding of some $200,000, and it would strike me that th is is an area where at least a plateauing if not an increase of servicing is required . We are talking about community recreation and we have got an expanding group of young people and I am wondering if the Minister can indicate why there has been a reduction in priority for community recreation in Manitoba in his department. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have reduced the number of SMY with regard to this particular

section . There was some mention a little while ago about the closing of the Gimli Training Centre . That dealt with a number of people. We have, and I am happy to report, made an arrangement with the Gimli Development Corporation , which is now running that particular facility and it is open for the public . It is running on a break-even aasis, and has been functioning the last little while very satisfactorily and is looking after the groups that are involved in there. Hence, we will not be providing a subsidy or hiri ng those people through the department and that reflects some of the cost savings and also some of the expense savings with regard to this particular

section . The rest is dealing with some contracts. There was a conversion of three contract positions for the assistance and the recreation specialists field, and that about covers that particular decrease . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman, I am disappointed that the Gimli Recreational Centre was closed down. And even if it is being run by the Gimli Development Corporation, I am wondering if it's the same service that was provided in the past. The service that used to be provided by the Recreation Centre was for various groups that ut lized it.

Groups like the 4-H groups . I can recall , when I was a member of the 4-H Club , that we went there to a 4-H Youth Camp and it provi ed an opportunity for people from different parts of the province, young people , to get together and to further their progress in that particular field . Now I think the same thing holds true with respect to sports development, 4-H, and with respect to various youth groups. There used to be a program of taking people from the inner core of Winnipeg out to places outside of Winnipeg.

And I'm wondering whether in fact that's continuing or not, because when you have a type of reduction in the public provision of these types of community recreation services coupled with an attitude on the part of the government that somehow we shouldn't be spending money , you are going to have private groups coming in and trying to provide some of these services at a profit. We have a member here introducing a private member's bill which would embellish one private recreational service with a bar .

Now I think the reason why that's happening is that maybe these things can 't stand on the ir own feet privately, that recreation and parks is best provided through the public domain , and that if in fact we are cutting back on the public prov ision of a lot of these community recreation services , we are going to find ourselves in a really mixed bag where we are going to be doing a lot of weird things to try and support more exclusive, more elitist, private community recreation undertakings . And this is the concern that I have in the whole community recreation area.

I don 't think we have enough community recreation in Manitoba . I think we made tremendous strides over the last eight years but I certainly don 't think that we've got sufficient community recreation .

And I would like the Minister to indicate whether he is sat isfied with the level of community recreation development in Northern Manitoba ; whether he is satisfied with the level of community recreation and development in rural Manitoba; whether he is satisfied with the level of community recreation deVelopment in the suburbs , which sometimes don't have a community to tie into because they are a new expanding suburb; and most iortantly, whether he is satisfied with the level of community recreation development and activity in the centre of Winnipeg, in the inner core, where I think the problem is greatest and most pressing.

But there are tremendous problems in places like Churchill , and Moose Lake , as well , where you have a lot of young people with very little to do and I am really concerned that the Minister is cutting back in this area, which I think should be a high priority rather a than a low priority of the government. Could the Minister indicate whether he is satisfied with the .levels of community recreation? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman , first of all to deal with the Gimli Training Centre , it is my understanding 4693

Friday, June 30, 1978 in talking to staff and to people that have been out there, they are happy with the level of service. It is the same level of service that was provided before. The operation of this particular facility, the fees charged , are done so to try and cover the operation and maintenance costs of the building. There is no rent charged from the province towards that . And we have people in our Department of Recreation that are monitoring the situation closely, are in touch with those people out there, and are also providing assistance, technical assistance , wherever .

There is a recreation specialist who is stationed out in Gimli and serving the Interlake area. So they are monitoring it very closely and so far it has been a very good working relationship, and we hope that that can continue, because the service is still being provided at the same level it was before and is not causing us to hand out any subsidies. The levels of recreation throughout the province, this is a problem of course , Mr. Chairman, that we have been addressing ourselves to over the years. I guess the age-old problem is the proper utilization of existing facilities, such as in the school systems.

We have had debates in the last numbers of years that I have been here to try and see if there wasn't some better utilization . We have got a lot of facilities that are under-utilized as far as regional schools and different areas are concerned. I think that in very many areas there is even overlap . When we met with the Federal Minister about a month ago , we expressed our concern that in the area of physical fitness, as well as the area of recreation, that we did not have another level of government entering that particular field .

Because very often what happens is many of the programs that are initiated by the Federal Government, whether it be Canada Works grants and other programs that are developed , what happens is they are developed to create immediate employment but they go on to a field where there might already be some people involved in it. In other words, there could be some programs started up which might be much better handled by the municipality involved and the City of Winnipeg , that could be co-ordinated, and there are funds being expended at maybe all three levels of government where there should be better co-ordination.

This was feeling of all the Ministers across Canada and that is something that we will try and work to consolidate . So there are certain areas of concern . The biggest problem , I guess, is to try and co-ordinate all the different efforts from the different areas . We have got some pretty good policies in place that have been there for awhile . The assistance to regional recreation districts in hiring a full-time recreational director. We also give a small assistance to towns or villages , or municipalities , that go it on their own.

There is a small grant but there is encouragement for - and this is financially - for municipalities to get together and form a recreation district , and thereby attribute a small amount to a full-time recreation director in the province and fix up the rest . So there is a development. I think there is something like two recreation districts which are in the process of being formed right now, and these are in the Robl in-Russell area in rural Manitoba, and there is another one, I believe, in the Gimli area , which is being formed right now, too .

So the municipalit ies and school boards are getting involved and we hope to have a co-ordinated effort in trying to maximize the dollars and the facilities that we do have in place. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I'd like to MR. PARASIUK: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman . My point of order was that it was fairly traditional if people were asking a set of questions for the Chairman to recognize the person who had been asking that question.

And if in fact you are changing that procedure, I thought you were doing that in the past and I had a couple of more questions in th is particu lar .. . MR. CHAIAN: On the point of order, in fairness the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge had risen prior to the Member for Transcona originally on the second question that he had asked the Honourable Minister , and I thought in fairness that we would give the opportunity to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. If that's not fair, then I will recognize the Member for Transcona , with the permission of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. AXWORTHY: Well Mr.

Chairman, I am quite prepared to defer but I would point out to the Member for Transcona that on previous occasions in these Estimates, I have also had a line of questioning interrupted by members of his caucus. MR. PARASIUK: I can appreciate the concern that exists, but sometimes what happens is, when you 're looking at the Minister , you 're not sure if he's going to sit down , or if he's just bending over to get some more advice from his staff, so you 're not leaping up - you don 't want to be sitting here on a spring for the entire afternoon or the morning . 4694

Friday, June 30, 1978 had two quick points I wanted to make in response to what the Minister had indicated. First, I think he is saying that in the Gimli Park recreational facility they are now charging, where before they weren't , and I think that that is a change in the type of service that is being provided. So he is now saying that they always charge but yet they 've reduced the amount of money that's being spent there , and yet they're providing the same type of service.

Again, I think we might have a chemist at work here that's changing lead into gold; I really don't think that can be the case, and I have not received an explanation on that.

Secondly , the other comment I wanted to make is that this particular area is something that has been developed over the last eight years, and I noticed that the Minister easily slipped into the pattern of saying, "Yes, we've been looking at this problem for a number of years," and I can appreciate that, because the staff in the department have indeed been looking at the problem for a number of years and I think have been developing, in an evolutionary manner , a systematic program to try and provide community recreation across the entire province.

I also know that the staff, or that the program, has always been scrapping , in a sense, in the Estimates process for a proper share of funding, because often community recreation, especially when you're starting it out, is more of an intangible. It's not as tangible as a bridge or a road , so there's a tendency on the part of decision makers of whatever stripe, to tend to go for those hard, tangible items and to in fact gloss over some very important investments, social investments, like this one is, in young people.

And despite what the Minister said about continuing on with the program, when all is said and done , there is still a reduct ion of $200,000 in the funding in this program, which means that there is a decrease in priority relative to what it was in the past and relative to other programs that exist, and I just want to point out that difference in priority, because I think it is there; I think it's substantial and I think it could have some serious longer run implications.

My final point is that community recreation provided a set of opportunities for new careerists, and this is especially so in the north, and especially so in the inner core of the city, and I think that new careerists did exceptionally well in these positions . And I gather that the New Careerists program is having some difficulty in continuing. I think it's proved itself over the past .

But what's been happening is that there have been cutbacks in those areas where new carerrists, who have had an intensive training on the job program for two years, should be graduating into them; they should be graduating into positions associated with community recreation ; they should be graduating into positions tied into the provision of home care, and it's precisely in those areas where we've had cutbacks by this government.

I think it must be incredibly frustrating for those people who feel that they probably could do a better job, provided they got some skills, in providing community recreation assistance , being catalysts in communities up north, for example, to go through this intensive two-year program and then find that because the government has changed its priority with rspect to the level of community recreation services, that they have no place to graduate to.

And I'm wondering if the Minister can confirm whether in fact his government will continue to place a high priority on utilizing community recreation services as a place where New Careerist trainees can graduate into? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, that particular policy, we are reviewing it. I can point out though that there have been , in the last little while, four New Careerist people added to the staff; one at Cross Lake, one at Manigotagan, one at Wabowden and one at Thompson. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just wanted to really make arequest of the Minister, maybe preceded by a question , about the kind of community recreation that is being offered in the province . I would start with the observation that I hope will be taken in its proper vein, but I think that we are suffering from a time lag in responding to the demands or needs or interests of people in the province for different kinds of community recreation facilities, and over-emphasizing the organized games sort of thing which was very popular.

I think we got caught up - you know, the Pan-Am Games happened here in Winnipeg and then the Olympics and everything else and everyone thought that in order to have recreation, you had to centre it around a whole sort of highly organized system of games, and every time you turned around, someone was having another system of games. But at the same time you'll find - and this is a parochial comment - that in certain parts of the province at least , there is a much higher demand now for individualized recreation facilities, things like cross-country ski trails, bicycle paths, jogging areas.

People are beginning to require and demand those kinds of services . It's the one area in which we seem to be investing very little money, very little time or effort. I would invite the Minister , if he is ever in the city on a weekend, to come along Wellington Crescent and find that it .is probably a more intense traffic jam with bicycles between two and four in that area, than it is on Portage and Main at five o'clock; that it's now getting to the point where you almost have to reserve your lane just in order to maintain 4695

Friday, June 30, 1978 it. And I think that that 's a healthy thing, and people are enjoying it, but it's indicative, I think, of a much stronger demand. At the same time, in the winter areas , that if you try to go to places like La Broquerie and Birds Hill Park , and some of the other parks - City Park - closely accessible to the city, they are terribly overcrowded . There is far more demand than there is facilities for them, and yet, at the same time, it's a healthy development because these are individualized sports that particularly people of all ages can take up with relatively little expense .

It seems to me that what we are increasingly in danger of doing is putting more and more money into the more highly organized game type structure of recreation , orienting ourselves towards these kinds of intense competitions and ignoring the requirements to provide much more individualized sports areas , recreation areas , particularly in our urban areas , I would suggest.

And I'm not in any way try ing to denigrate or say that other areas of the province don't need recreation , but I am suggesting that 600,000 people live in the City of Winnipeg ; they probably have less access to open spaces and to recreation areas than any group. I know that in my own area of central Winn ipeg there was a study done , . oh, I guess a couple of years back ,tthat it has less open area space per capita than almost any other major city in Canada. There 's just no place to go and people are beginning to find their ways.

I mean , there have been some small improvements made , opening up streets for bicycling and so on. But it does seem to me that in looking at the kind of program of community recreation that the province really needs in the future , there could be some very fascinating opportunities.

And I would just mention one that comes to mind, as I know that there has been , for example , a number of decisions taken recently to abandon railway lines and rights of ways throughout the city, which would provide , with some proper restructuring, very accessible and very useful kinds of bicycle trails, cross-country ski trails , and other things , with a very minimum of work . Rather than putting our money into the big parks, and again I don't want to sound like lmm against big parks , but in terms of getting maximum use for dollars , we're . ..

I know that Parks Canada and the Tourism, your branch , is working with a major downtown park area , which again I approve and applaud , I th ink it's great , but in the meantime , where does the community recreation facilities fit into those plans and what is going to be made available in the near future for increasingly large numbers of people who want to undertake these kinds of areas of acti vity. I say that , Mr. Chairman , in response to the report that was done by the Department of Education last year which pointed out that most young Manitobans are in awful shape.

We can point out that some 70 percent of high school girls are fat - I guess is the word . I think they used the word overweight or obese , but it comes down that they simply weigh too much . They didn 't comment upon young Manitoban males but I'll just simply say that they were obviously in need of some more exercise than they were getting. Let's maybe put it politely . MR. ENNS: I don 't like that fat word . MR. AXWRRTHY: In deference to members of this Legislature , none of whom are, including myself , are paragons of virtue in this area, and that , by the way , Mr.

Chairman , - if I may digress - the reason is, and I blame it totally on the Minister of Public Works , that our only food outlet is a junk food depository in the members' lounge rather than providing more healthy and nutritious outlets , which we've been arguing about for two or three years , that we only can eat potato chips and chocolate bars in those long nights that we're asked to spend here - but that 's a digression .

The point I want to make to the Minister is that in the planning of the park facilitie that are going ahead in the downtown area of Winnipeg and in the kind of abandonments that are taking place with railway lines and other areas , I think that the emphasis for community recreation planning and activity in the next few years should be simply to provide the limited and really very small cost areas where people can go and do their jogging and their skiing and their bicycling and the places where they can provide that kind of access .

I think the equipment is relatively inexpensi ve and they can take care of themselves . I would really simply like to urge upon the Minister that that be the kind of priority that we put in the urban areas in the future , is to prov ide those kinds of opportunities which I think are rapidly becoming overcrowded and overused right now in the City of Winnipeg . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.-pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman , there 's one thing that concerns me. I think that the previous government was lax in that.

I think they finally moved and I haven 't heerd any of the Ministers say anything about that and I'm referring now to some kind of an interdepartmental comm itt ee, I think that is highly needed. You know , the people are talking about , well for instance, one of the things was fitness and amateur sports in community recreation , that it should be together . I don 't think 4696

Friday, June 30, 1978 that this is necessarily true but I think that there is nothing that prevents the same government, especially different departments, to get together. I know that we were in the process of setting up an interdepartmental committee with the Fitness and Amateur Sports Branch in the Department of Health, a community recreation group that definitely must work together. Also, and this is a very important part of it also, is the Department of Education .

What reminded me of that is the Minister said that for many years we've talked about many facilities that were paid by taxpayers and that were under-utilized and I think the Minister was probably referring to gyms in schools and so on, and there's no doubt that this is the case. You know, if it was were to start all over again , 1 would suggest that we don't have community clubs. I think they should be in th schools. We should have them but not separately. They should be in the school and the school should be constructed in such a way that this could be used.

You know, you have the same people when we're talking about restraint, spending wisely, and we have a . .. I'll always remember I think it was in Snow Lake that they wanted a kind of a gym and they had a gym in the school and they said , "Well, the principal says no. After 3:30 you can't use it.

It's got white tiles there and it will only get dirty ." So I would hope that - it might be that this is still going on - that there will be a committee grouping all these groups together, the nutritionist and so on, the Department of Health and the Education and the department of my honourable friend, and I hope this will be done. Now, I agree with what the ... - mind you, I didn't like his choice of words - but I agree with what the Member for Fort Rouge had to say. I was a little disappointed If he feels that something should be done at the detriment of the Games .

I think the only games that we have here are the Manitoba Games and that, I think, fills another need. I think it fills a need of organized sports and leadership training and community participation and I think there's quite a few people involved in that and I would hope that the government doesn't feel that this should be cut in order to provide more in this field. I wonder if the Minister can report. I know that at one time they were doing exactly - there was a movement to do exactly what the Member for Fort Rouge was suggesting, some facilities where the unorganized recreation could take place.

I think that we were looking at that at the time of the Floodway and the Perimeter. There was one of the areas near Birds Hill that I think is very very popular now. The intention was, and the Minister had stated that there was no planning in this department and that can't be any further from the truth, because there was a lot of planning in this area and I know that some of these facilities like the one I mentioned, the one I referred to around the Birds Hill area on the Perimeter, that there were others in the planning stage and I wonder where this has gone. This is a question now .

I wonder if the Minister can tell me how many divisions they have, community divisions , with a recreation specialist and also the percentage, if that could be done roughly, the percentage of work that is done with the senior citizens . I think that there was a movement and I think that this has improved an awful lot, but I would like the Minister to tell us what is being done, what is contemplated for the future in trying to provide some form of recreation and recreation could be everything. Most of it is found in this department. It could be a library; it could be watching T.V., it could be anything.

But what is being contemplated and what kind of co-operation do we have with senior citizens' groups, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: We have eight regional offices throughout the province and the staff informs me that the regional offices have worked closely with the senior citizens and there has been some very good results. At the Senior Citizens' Olympics, there was very good participation in that, and they are working closely with them and there has been a tremendous response .

I think the Federal Government has also been providing some funding to the New Horizons Program which has mobilized a lot of the citizens in the province, where they have set up their own particular little place where they maybe have a pool table and some other games, so they're working with that. The recreation specialists in the different areas are monitoring that very closely. Mentioning just a few points that the Member for Fort Rouge raised, I think that one of the reasons we've seen a phenomenal growth, especially in the racquet sports, is that people want to get in there and do something themselves.

Racquet ball has really caught on because it doesn't require the skill and yet you can go out there and have a quick game and really get a lot of exercise in a very short while . So I can see a trend towards more participatory sports rather than spectator sports because people like to get involved. With regard to the abandonment of right-of-ways, I will take that point. It's well taken.

We are negotiating with the Federal Government right now, in my other department dealing with transportation, with the Canadian Pacific as well as with CNR and we have indicat ed that before those rights-of-way are given away to anybody, that we would like to have a look at them, anywhere in the province, whether it be for road construction, but it could definitely have some interesting 4697

Friday, June 30, 1978 concepts in the City of Winnipeg if they could be des ignated bicycle paths or something like that . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I have a few questions for the Minister and I'm not sure where all of them fiteexactly in the process here , so maybe his staff would want to take note of it and he can answer those questions when we get to the appropriate sect ion to answer them . Mr. Chairman , the first one is the New Careers Program for train ing communi ty recreation workers . The department had a program under way .

It was tra ining workers for a number of remote communities and it seemed to be working quite well , it certainly was one of the first efforts of the department to get involved in the remote communities which had pretty well, always in the past , been ignored by the prev ious government and even in the early days of our governmen t in terms of the recreation needs , there was that sort of a problem . There were a number of people in the process of being tra ined.

I wonder if that training program is completed , whether that training program is still going on under New Careers and whether or not those persons that were trained under the New Careers Program have now been hired by the department to continue their work in the Indian and Metis communities in Manitoba . Mr. Chairman , in relation to that , I wonder if the Minister would care to comment.

I know a number of very small communities that certainly didn 't have much in the way of funds , were using the employment creation program or the winter works program to finish off their ball diamond, to clear brush for their playing field , to put up some swings, etc ., for the children in the communities, and I know a number of communities that use this source of funding , somet imes combined with some federal winter works, Canada Works programs , who have been able to upgrade their recreation facilities .

These are not the communities that have the kind of fund s to cost-share under the capital facilities recreation grants , but communities where the loca l bingo s and stuff raise not enough to really improve the recreation facilities , and they are the commun ities that really took advantage of what members opposite called the make-work programs , the prog rams that prov ided employment in areas of high unemploymen t. I know that near The Pas, t he com munities of Umperville and the Big Eddy Metis settlement there .

I know of some commun ities like Reedy Creek in the Amaranth area , the small communities that used these kinds of funds in a very effect ive way to improve their recreation facilities and this work was far more meaningful in terms of the commun ity than having a recreation specialist or whateve r. The people knew what they wanted to do. They had the init iative to develop programs for the children the re and for adults , and they just needed this little bit of extra funds that they got through the employment creation programs to get those facilities launched.

So I wonder if the Minister would care to comment on that , tell if there is any such program still in existence or whether they have all been totally elim inated by this government , and whether he understands that that is going to have a harmful effect on the development of recreation in these very small communities . The other question , Mr. Chairman , I have is in the way of grants . I was not too pleased with the department last year befo re the change in governmen t. There is a grant that has gone to the Indian Day Celebrations at The Pas.

The department told me that there was some delay and that within two or three weeks there would be a cheque and th is was in August . When I called them in September, the cheque still wasn 't ready to go; when I called in November , the cheque still wasn 't ready to go and then I think it was January I got another call from the people at The Pas responsible for that event and they still hadn 't received the funds yet . I wonder whatever could have happened . It was supposed to have been approved by the department and just a matter of processing . Similarly , Mr.

Chairman , I wonder if it is the intent ion of the Min ister of this government to continue the grant for the handicraft display at The Pas Trappers ' Festiv al, a grant that was first started when the Conservative member represen ted The Pas area and a g rant that was cont inued all the time during our term in office , to allow for a northern hand icraft disp lay with hand icra fts com ing in from all over Northern Manitoba to compete with each other and then an actua l sale of hand icrafts that takes place from those people who wish to sell their hand icrafts at that time. Mr.

Chairman , I wonde r if the Minister is able to answer any of those questions now or whether some of them at points later on. I would also , Mr. Chairman , maybe the staff could start preparing . I would like some more detailed information on the numbe r {a)(4}. I will be asking the Minister for a detailed explanation when we get to that section. I will also be asking him how much was recoverable from Canada last year as opposed to th is year . What is the decrease in the amount recoverable from Canada? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . 4698

Friday, June 30, 1978 MR. BANMAN: First of all, dealing with the New Careers Program, I answered a number of those questions when the member was out before. There have been four New Careerists hired in the last month. month: Cross Lake, Manigotagan, Wabowden and Thompson. I understand there is something like 12 people that are training right now throughout the province, so the program is continuing. At present the province is making grants as far as recreation equipment for northern communities to supply them with some basic balls, bats, gloves, that type of thing.

That grant, 1 think , just went out not too long ago too, to a number of rural communities , who, as the Member says, don't have the funds to buy that particular equipment. The art display and art fair that takes place in northern communities is included in the Estimates again. It is the same amount as it was last year, and the festival grants come under the Department of Tourism, they have been included in the Budget again. So maybe the problem that the member talks about might have been an accounting problem or something, with the filing of a statement or something.

I would have to check that for him, but it has been included in the process. Dealing with The NORTHLANDS Agreement , Mr. Chairman, the formula is the same as it was before . It is a 60/40, 60 Federal, 40 percent provincial split on the recovery of it, and if the member wants some other detailed information, then I would request that he ask for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I asked some questions and made some comments in terms of the employment creation programs and the worthwhile effect those had in some very small communities .

Some of those communities, as a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, the ones that took the most advantage of it were communities that didn 't fall under The Northern Affairs Act, but small Metis commun ities that actually fell with in Local Government Districts are the ones I know that made the most benefit of that program , and I wonder if the Minister fought or objected when that particular prog ram was cut.

Because to those communities , some of the small communities within the LGDs, that and Canada Works funds were the only funds that they were able to make use of to develop their recreation facilities , and use the employment intensive nature of the program to construct facilities to use loca l mate rials to put together their recreation facilities . So Mr. Chairman, I think that item could be quite appropriately dealt with under this

section by the Minister. On the NORTHLANDS I wanted to get a breakdown and I can wait until we get to that section, as to exactly what program in detai l it is being used for and how much was recovered last year under this program , as opposed to recovered this year under this program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman , just before we leave th is section, there was one other item in the community recreation area I wanted to bring to the Minister's attention , and that has to do with the access of recreat ion facilities for people who have different kinds of handicaps.

It came to my attention in particular last year when a new school or gymnasium was being constructed in my constituency, and there was efforts made by the Home for the Deaf, which is very close to it, to try to include within that gymnas ium certain facilities that would allow people with hearing difficulties to become invo lved and use that facility for their own purposes. They literally tried to find funding or support from every group, but the School Board said "It's not our responsibility. " Recreat ion said , "It's not our responsibility.

" No one was preapared to take up the responsiblity of providing just a small increment of addit ional support so that specialized equipment and facilities cou ld be built into that gymnasium to allow people with hearing difficulties to have access and use of th at new recreation area. hat prompted me to hold some meetings with the Advisory Group on the Handicapped and talk to them about it, and they do indicate that there is a virtual absence of facilities in the province that are spec ially designed or redesigned to allow people with different kinds of physical difficulties to make use of it or to undertake proper recreation .

There are some efforts, I know, again, that there are certa in games being held but if you look at the need again to find proper recreation areas that have the appropr iate equipment and the appropriate physical reconstruction to allow people to go into the gymnasiums, to go into playing fields, and so on, it is just not available. -(Interjection)- Swimming pools are another good example, as the Member for St. Boniface points out. It would seem to me that one of the reasons for it is there just doesn't seem to be any clear direction being given in that particular area.

It may go back to the point that the Member for St. Boniface brought to our attention , and that is that there are three or fuur different organizations within government , each of which have a little piece of the action and no one really has the combined responsibility for it. I would really like to ask the Minister if he intends to take any initiatives in this field, to review 4699

Friday, June 30, 1978 exactly what the recreation opportunities are for the physically handicapped in the province and what would be required to start upgrading and improving facilities to provide that kind of access , how long it would take and how much it might cost. MR. BANMAN: 1 have met, Mr. Chairman, with the Manitoba Advisory Council for the Physically Handicapped . They were requiring a home , so what we did is we did give them some space in the Provincial Archives Build ing, and that's where they are operating out of right now.

They are working closely with the depar tment and with the staff to try and identify these differen t areas that the member has mentioned and try to overcome those particular problems, especially when new construction is undertaken by any particular facilities. So they are, at present , getting space from the department right in the building and are working closely with the department .

I have, as I mentioned , met with them to discuss some of their concerns and we will be working closely with them to try and formulate not only policies dealing with recreation for the physically handicapped , but also try and alleviate some of the problems that they do have. So that there is an ongoing process of consultation , as well as implementation that will be taking place . MR. AXWORTHY: Well , Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to hear the Minister say that the meetings are taking place .

Can he indicate at the present moment what financial support there may be for the redesign or alteration of recreation facilities in the province in order to make them more accessible for those who have physical handicaps. Is there any place where one could go in particular to find that kind of support to make those changes? MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman , there are no funds per se in my Estimates that deal with the changing of physical structures in the Province of Manitoba , but what we're trying to do is to get a set of guidelines together, whether it be dealing with the Department of Public Works or dealing with other departments of government , as well as building code requirements .

As the member can appreciate , up until a couple of years ago there were no requirements for community facilities as far as washrooms to accommodate wheelchairs, and this has been changed in the building code so that when a small hall renovates - I just had one renovate in my particular riding - the ramps have to be put in place and facilities have to be provided for people in wheelchairs . Small things like curb cuts on the sidewalks, which I think are being changed whenever there is a public work being done somewhere , so that there isn't that sharp drop.

So these are the areas that are being identified and the department is then passing those particular concerns on to whatever jurisdiction is required to make the changes. But there are no moneys per se for going out and doi ng the actual work within this particular budget . MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, in that respect, when the department provides capital grants, either through the lotteries , allocations to community groups as they do when the City of Winnipeg builds a swimming pool or do someth ing, is there a requirement within that that those facilities include access and availability for a handicapped?

I don 't mean just widening the washroom doors , but also if it's a swimming pool , for example , that there would be the proper steps and handles , and bars , and things like that so that programs could be operated and allocated within those new constructions . Are there guidelines available or required as a condition of receiving those grants? MR. BANMAN: The staff , Mr. Chairman , works closely with the people involved in that and there are guidelines that are set out that we want to see implemented when a new facility goes into place. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass - the Honourable Member for Gimli or for Selkirk .

MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , the Minister of Education isn't present; he might not appreciate your reference. I would like the Minister to indicate whether or not there is any evaluation of the present grant program for recreation in respect to the larger regional centres. At the present time, municipalities are more or less under the grant program, Lotteries Grant Program , treated as one to the next, regardless of whether the municipality is a regional centre or population , location , etc.

I know that Portage , for instance , has been desirous of obtaining some added recreational facilities that will serve the entire area . Certainly that's the case also with other regional centr es in the province of a significant size. I am wondering if there is any evaluation insofar as ascertaining whether extra assistance can be obtained for those reoional centres that are serving not just their own community but are serving other communities in the surrounding area. 4700

·' Friday, June 30, 1978 MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman , back in 1972 and 1973 there was a policy implemented which dealt with capital recreation grants to municipalities throughout the province. There was a formula that was established which gave , I believe, 12 community recreation centres in Winnipeg $20,000 a year so that there was some funding for the city groups, as well as for the rural areas.

I think one of the objectives of that particular program was to try and help the smaller municipalities, or the smaller centres within a municipality, to try and upgrade some of their . . . whether it be the local hall or whether it be a curling rink facility or some other local facility. The series five, phase two is coming to an end and there has been no commitment made to further proceeding with this particular capital grant system. We are in the process now of trying to develop a new policy dealing with that.

One of the problems that we faced with that particular grant is that one municipality could maybe be eligible for six or seven grants because of the little different hamlets within the municipality,

whereas a bigger centre like Portage Ia Prairie would get one grant and that was all. So that you could have a population of 10,000 people get $20,000 and then you could have a . little hamlet of 250 people also get a $20,000 grant and so there were some inequities . But I think the thrust of the program , and the gentlemen opposite might be more acquainted with it than I am as far as the philosophy behind it, was to try and upgrade some of these facilities in rural Manitoba to help the stay-option program and other$ things, and I think it did that to a large extent .

One of the problems that we did encounter however is that by giving a fairly substantial grant to a smaller community, what happened is that in some areas they were overbuilt to a certain extent with not having enough foresight as far as operation costs are concerned, and I think in many instances now the recreation facilities , if you're talking about a pool or something like that, the municipality might be able to afford the capital cost , but the continuing operation costs are very , very expensive .

So we are look ing at that particular program , we're dealing with the applications that are coming in and going to be process ing them , and once that is done we hope to come up with a new policcy which will use some of these lottery revenues that we are receiving right now in a program to help recreation facilities th roughout the province . MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for St. Bon iface . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman , I want to say a few words on that because I believe that I was the Minister responsible when we started this policy and I want to defend this policy.

No doubt , the Minister might want to bring in another policy, and I th ink any program should be reviewed and I think it's high time that this prog ram was reviewed . But initially we weren't dealing with municipalities at all. It was the program that we had, and the way it had to be done, it was 25 percent to a maximum of $20,000 , so that meant that the municipalities or the project , or whoever, the sponsor of the program , had to bring in three-quarters of the total funds.

Now, I don 't think that there has been too much abuse in the smaller areas having $20,000, because they had to have - don 't forget that th is was a maximum of $20,000, and that was 25 percent - so that meant that they had to have anoth er what? - $60,000.00. Now, I said that we dealt with the project or the sponsor ; we also dealt with the municipality exactly , so what the Minister said might happen would not happen .

We would not get an application form , a sponsor , only, but they had to go through the mun icipality and it was impressed on them that there was no money for the maintenance of this, that it couldn't be a white elephant or the municipality would be stuck , and we requested a motion from the mun icipality saying that they understood that and they approved it. Now, later on, it was slow in getting off the ground . Some of the municipalities took care of it and probably many projects in the one municipality where others waited.

And then it became very very popular and everybody wanted to get on the bandwagon, and I think if you said Series 2, i t would probably be closer to Series 22. I'm exaggerating, but there has been a lot of series. And then things were changed and I think they talked about the maintenance which I don't think that they should have, but anyway , that's beside the point. And then the government started to look at the different municipalities that were trying to get more uniform, or to spread it out more . I think in those days also, there was quite a survey made in the Research Branch of your department, Mr.

Minister, where they knew exactly where every facility , any facilities that you have, and maybe it would be good idea - this was done with the Federal Government - and it might be a good idea to just take that , brush it up and bring it up to date, because they could tell you, they had all the master charts and so on, where any auditorium was, where the arenas were, where there was artificial ice and curling area and so on , and I think that this was done.

Now, there is no doubt , I wouldn 't want the Minister to feel that , I th ink that only that policy, because it was done by the former government, is a good one . But I think it served the province very , very well. I think it is though, I agree with the Minister that it should be reviewed again to 4701

Friday, June 30, 1978 see what could be done. And this is the area also that it wouldn 't be very diff icult to do something for those that are handicapped . Now , as far as the City were concerned , it was the same thing . There was an area, there was a certain amount given to the City, committed to the City , for their Centenn ial, and I think that was used for around the - what 's the area? - t he park , anyway they've got a new swimming pool and a gym and so on .

And what happened is that every one of the community commiteees were given the same right as anybody else, and they had to go on through the Council of the City of Winnipeg , and they also - again , it was this thing of participation , of forcing them to put some of their money in. They wanted something , and there was a max imum of $20,000 again , which was 25 percent , and then some of the communities were allowed to work together. For instance , they got a fantastic swimming pool; they got a Bonne Vitale or something between St. Vital and St .

Boniface , and I think that this is a program that should be looked at also , and any of these facilities I think are really working well in the city, and this would go a long way to answer some of the questions suggested from the Member for Fort Rouge . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , I would like to thank the Min ister for his prev ious answer and I am pleased that there will be a review of the existing program . I certainly concur it's been a good program , but I do believe that there have been areas that deserve improvement.

If I could just again mention that the tax burden , insofar as the regional centres are con cerned , from Brandon to Dauphin to Selkirk to The Pas to Portage, are all well above the average mill rate in the province. In fact , The Pas, with the highest mill rate , I believe, in the Province of Mani toba , and right down to Brandon with the second, third highest , each and every one of the regiona l centres have very high mill rates, and much of this is the result of their having to provide certain serv ices to those that reside in rural municipa lities surrounding those centres .

And I have not been too happy with the fact that the centres , plus the City of Winnipeg , have in the main not recei ved as much benefit under this program for the ir respective populations as have the RMs throug hout the province , and I want to thank the Minister for his indication that he is giving serious review to this question , because I do feel that it's a serious one. I might just ment ion too, that the regional centres do have the higher percentage of children , younger peop le, who require this type of recreational service.

So, I thank the Minister and I look forward to a report from him next year as to what improvement has taken place in this respect. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass ; (2)-pass ; (3)-pass ; (4)(a)Salaries- pass - the Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman , very briefly , this particular area is the support staff , the recreation facilities that are being carried on in the northern areas . In other words , it goes for travel , it goes for personnel , it goes for stationery , and that is being cost-shared with the Federal Government under the NORTHLANDS Agreement. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (a)-pass ; (b)-pass - the Honourab le Member for St. Boniface . MR. DESJARDINS: I wonder if the Minister can give us a breakdown of this comparable to a breakdown of last year 's, also? MR. BANMAN: There was a grant for a full-time recreatio n direc tor, which was $16,000.00 . There are grants to regional recreational councils , $5,000 last year , $5,000 this year , and grants to communities for the Arts Education equipment which was ment ioned befo re for $2,500.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)-pass - the Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Is this 3.(b)? MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on 3. (4)(b), under (a).

MR. PARASIUK: Isn't it 3.(b), Cultural Grants? I'm a bit confuse d on the numbering . -(Interjection)- Oh, sorry . Okay , fine . I understand it; it' s okay. Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)- pass ; (c)-pass ; (4)-pass ; (a)-pass ; (b), Cultural Grants-pass - the Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: This is a fairly large item ; I see that the re's a reduc tion there of $600 ,000; I am 4702

Friday, June 30, 1978 wondering if the Minister can give us a breakdown for the expenditure of $3,715,000 last year, who the grants went to , and what the grants will be for the year 1978-79 , and who will be receiving the grants, so that we can get an idea of where the cutbacks have teken place in grants under this program? MR. BANMAN: Museum of Man and Nature received $1,327,000 last year; we will receive $1,261,000 this year. Manitoba Arts Council , $584,000 last year - and I'm rounding this off now, Mr. Chairman - and $537,000 this year. Winnipeg Art Gallery, $561,000 last year, $541,000 this year .

Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium, the one in Brandon, received $48,000 last year and will receive $48,000 this year. The French Cultural Centre in the Member for St. Boniface's constituency received $100,000 last year and will receive $100 ,000 th is year . The Manitoba Centenn ial Corporation received $909,000 last year and will receive $589,000 this year. The Ukrainian Cultural Centre received $25,000 last year and received $22,500 this year . The Multicultural projects, which was $159,000 has been transferred and will be funded from Lotteries . MR. PARASIUK: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I notice that there are cutbacks in a number of areas ; I think that those groups are feeling the pinch . I have yet to hear a very good explanation from the Minister as to why those cutbacks have taken place, other than they do reflect a difference in priorities , possibly. But I do have one specific concern , and that relates to the whole topic of multiculturalism . You talk about multicultural studies ; I don 't know where those are located . Could you just indicate where those are located , beca use there have been cutbacks in multicultural studies. -(Interjection)- Yes.

You see, because I'd like to point out that your cutbacks to the Museum of Man and Nature, which is a museum that I think is an excellent museum in the province and a lot of people are going to it now , the cutbacks the re have resulted in the Director of the Multicultural Studies being term inated , being let go , and the program being left without any type of adequate direction. Now , 1 think that this runs against the general character of the Province of Manitoba, and I think that we should be promoting multicultural studies.

I think that the attitude of the Minister, when 1 had asked him quest ions in the past on this matter in the House , was incorrect. He took the position that the Board had made that type of deci sion and he was going to leave it in their hands entirely . Now , it strikes me that th is is an area that the Minister should in fact interest himself in directly , that he should ensure that that progra m i s going to be carried out well and expeditiously, and that he review the situation , because the situation isn't as bland as the Minister would like to project.

There has been a lot of controversy ; the people have come forward and put their names forward and the Board composition has changed somewhat directly as a result of the decrease in priority on multicultural studies in the Museum of Man and Nature . I wish that the Minister would assure us that that program will be re-established or put back to its original priority that it used to have last year and previous years , and I want the Minister to assure the members of the House that he will re-establish the prio rity of mult icultural studies in the Museum of Man and Nature. MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman , I have spoken with members of the Board and also with people involved in the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature , I understand that they are going to be establishing a process where they can do some fund-raising and hope to be able to raise some of these funds to try and hire some of these people back . It was not as though a whole

section was laid off; in other words, the four or five people that were laid off were not all from one multicultural section, and they still have a certain amount of expertise in that area and are dealing with that . With regard to the multicultural projects that I mentioned in the funding , that funding level will be maintained in order that these different projects and groups will be able to continue to function. So, the Museum of Man and Nature are going to be doing some of their own fund-raising, going to people to try and get additional funds to maintain that level. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman , I'm not satisfied with the responses of the Minister of Tourism. I don 't think it should be left up to private fund-raising to ensure that multicultural studies in the province get sufficient priorities . I think that if he's going to say that we're going to be providing a cont inued level of grants here and there and other places , but that when it comes to multicultural studies werre going to leave that somehow to private fund -raising , I think that that is really putting the whole concept in a very precarious pos ition . 4703

Friday, June 30, 1978 And 1 think that the Minister can't give us that type of response, saying, " Well, I'm going to trust in private fund-raising with respect to multicultural studies, because that's the type of priority I'm giving it. " 1 don't think that that's sufficient.

I think that if there are some other areas where private fund-raising may in fact be applicable, fine , but I don't think that something as essential to the character of the Province of Manitoba , like mult icultural studies, should be given the decrease, or the meagre funds th.at would somehow have to put the Board of the Museum out into the general public, in a sense, begging for money to try and continue on with that type of a program.

And I think that if you do release the Director of that type of program, especially since the Director, I think , has built up that program , has been in consultation with the Federal Government, has arranged for federal cost-sharing, I think that the cost-sharing has been put in jeopardy as a result of his termination, and I think it reflects the type of attitude that certainly I don't think the Mnnister would want to project; I don't think that the Legislature of Manitoba would want to project that to the public.

So I would like the Minister to give us a very concrete assurance that he will sit down with the Board, that he will ask them to re-establish the multicultural program within the Museum of Man and Nature to its past level, and that if, in fact , cutbacks are going to take place, that they take place in areas other than multicultural studies, given the particular nature and characteristics of the Province of Manitoba. MR. BANMAN : Mr.

Chairman , as I mentioned in the House previously, there is a Board of Directors out there that is running that particular facility ; are doing a good job at it; they are faced with certain budgetary constraints like all the other groups are, and like the hospitals are, and different groups are and as a result they will have to make their own determin ations out there .

I've got an open ear to listen to any problems that anybody has, but right now they are running that particular establishment and they have been charged with that responsibility , and I, as the Minister , am not going to go and start overriing all kinds of different decisions that the Board makes .

So this is the approach we've taken , we reduced our Budget from $1.327 million to $1 .261 million- a $66,000 decrease this year - and we hope that they can provide a level of service to the people of Manitoba at that particular facility which will be at a level which the majority of Manitobans will be able to take advantage of. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Chairman , we've had a $66,000 reduction, which is actually more than that given the level of inflation , it would appear to members on this side of the House that that reduction has been translated entirely, or virtually entirely , onto the multicultural program within the Museum of Man and Nature, and I think that it is a question of values at this particular stage .

I think that the Minister can 't say, " Well, you know, I don 't have a particular value position on this." I think that we should make it clear to the Board that the members of the Legislature have a very high value for multicultural studies , and that it's imperative that the Minister sit down with the Board and ensure that that program is given sufficient priority.

I think to hide behind the Board is unfair, and I think the Minister surely has to determine where the values and prior ities lie with respect to something like that , and he hasn't answered that , and I think hiding behind the Board is insufficient . I think that it is very clear tha t the members of this Legislature value multicultural programs within that Museum very highly , and I think that the Minister should relate that to the Board, and should sit down himself and sort it out so that program isn't decimated . MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I couldn't agree more with my colleague from Transcona . I think the Minister is either missing the point , or is less than interested . The Minister made a comparison to the hospital when he said , " Well, they have a global budget, " well, he didn 't use the words global budget , but this is what he meant , " and it's up to them . We have a very good Board ." But I think and I wonder if the Minister doesn 't agree with me, that the Government of Manitoba has certain responsibilit ies. For instance , if the St.

Boniface Hospital was to say, "We have a global budget , so we're going to close the facilities - there's no more open heart surgery , or heart surgery , or any of these ." I know that the Minister or the government would stand up flat and say, " No way are you going to do that. " In fact , this government mentioned it in the Throne Speech , and everybody in the House and everybody outside the House that I spoke to, thought that there would be some money for the heart surgery. But the Minister said , " No, no, there 's no more money , that is not even going to be taken into consideration.

That's part of the 2.2 percent, " but you're going to do it. You know , it's okay when we're trying to unite Canada , we're giving a lot of lip service to bilingualism and multiculturalism . I think that for a long time now , in Manitoba at least, we agree that it wasn 't biculture , it was bilingualism , yes, but multiculture , and we've given an awful lot of 4704

Friday, June 30, 1978 lip service to this . And that's the nature of Manitoba - we have all these different groups that form Manitoba. I think that this is what my colleague from Transcona was saying, that the government then should say, " Well , fine . . You've got a global budget , but this is something you have to maintain, because this is something that we feel is a priority and a commitment of the province ." Either that or the Minister should tellus , "Well, then, we've given up. We're not interested in multiculturalism.

Sure, we wish them luck , but that 's all." I think that it has to be more than that, so the Minister at least could make a commitment today, to see what he can do with money from the Lottery. I know that there's quite a bit of money being made on the Lottery, but something has to be done .

It might be that the Minister could tell me now, "Well, if you are a little patient, under the Dominion-Provincial Cultural Relations Secretariat , we have something there." I think that this is where you have an Advisory Comm ittee on mult iculturalism , but the intent of promoting mult iculturalism in Manitoba , I hope will remain a high priority for this government. Especially in this time when we are trying to unite the country, and we're telling the people that we respect this .

This is not the melting pot that we find in the United States but we are encouraging them to keep their culture , and this is what makes Man itoba and Canada so rich . A few years ago we organized a mosa ic congress of Manitoba, and everybody thought , well , you know , it's political - it's political suicide - but the people got along very well together, and it was the start of something and it has been progressing from there.

I think that it would be very very bad, and I know, personally , that the Minister is just as interested as I am in multiculturalism , and I would hope that he will insist that this should be a high priority in Manitoba . Especially, in these years , as I say, when we're trying to meld this - to strengthen our country, and make it a place where we can go on and keep our culture , and in fact I think this makes us much richer , so I wou ld hope that the Minister could at least tell us, " Well , fine, I'll have another talk with them ." But please , don 't blame the Board , beca use the Board has a global budget.

And it is not their priority - they were not elected - and I would not knock the Board if they say, "Well, we've got enough. We've got other things that are more of a priority ." Maybe for the Museum they are, but for the Province of Manitoba , and if it's not going to be done there , then it's got to be done somewhere else, and the Minister should not evade his responsibility in this field. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. BOYCE: Mr.

Chairman, in sitting listening to the debate , I couldn 't help but think that really we have a debt of gratitude to express to an individual who was primarily involved in the advances that have been made in this particular regard over the past fifteen years , Maitland Steinkopf. And only but that he was in the present government to see that the order of priorities should be changed somewhat , that even when it comes down to putting up with a few bumps in a road, that perhaps the necessity of facing up to the fact that the better people understand our cultural differences, the better people will get along .

But in listening to the Minister's statement that he wants these organizations to raise private funds , I would commend to his reading the Task Force Report of the Federal Government, which was prepared in another field, on the delivery of Correctional Services by non-government organizations, which some peop ie like to call the private sector. And some of the difficulties facing these organ izations because of the change of milieu , that even some of the organizations which relied heavily on bingo games are in difficulty because of the infringement of lotteries and other such endeavours in the community .

It is getting harder and harder to attract non-government dollars to these areas which, even at the best of times , are considered frills by many . I would ask the Minister to take a look at that because I think he will find that it is going to be more and more difficult for these organizations, and he won 't reach that goal that he said that he was striving for. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)-pass ; (cX1) Salaries-pass; (2)-aass; (3)-pass ; (c)-pass; (dX1)-pass; (2)-pass; (d)-pass ; (eX1)-pass; (2)-pass ; (e)-pass; (fX1) Salaries-pass; (2)-pass; (3)-pass; (f)-pass; Clause 3.-pass.

Resolution No. 111: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,086,200 for Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs, Cultural and Recreational Services Division, $7,086,200 .00-pass. Resolution No. 112, Clause 4. Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets-pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface . MR. DESJARDINS: I wonder if the Minister could give us a breakdown? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: Park Development, $1.5 million; Land Acquisition for the ARC Agreement, $249,000; 4705

Friday, June 30, 1978 Request authority for . . . MR. DESJARDINS: The Minister, to save repetition, could he give us a breakdown to compare to last year and we won 't have to have him repeat it? MR. BANMAN: Total Park Development last year was $2,085,000 - this year $1,500,000; Land Acquisition was $215,000 last year - $249,000 this, that excludes the ARC Agreement; Assiniboine Zoo was $70,000 last year - $56,000 this year; Equipment Purchases last year, $83,000 - this year, $155,000; for a total of $1 ,960 ,000 .00.

Then there's Historic Restoration Construction, $110,000 last year - $100,000 this year; Museum of Man and Nature, $100 ,000 last year - $100,000 this year; Centennial Corporation, $100,000 last year - $105,000 this year ; Ethnic Cultural Projects , $100,000 last year - $70,000 this year; The ARC Agreement, $400 ,000 last year - $550 ,000 this year . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman , I don't want to be repetitious , but I think that we made our point, that we're concerned with some of the cuts that they've made , the Assiniboine Park is included in that, so there would be no point in repeating, especially at this time . We are trying to co-operate with the Minis ter and finish the Estimates before the hour of 12:30. But, Mr. Chairman, I'm sure you would allow me to mention a sad note of something that happened to Manitoba. And I'm referring to the untimely death of Dr. Robert Painchaud , who is certainly a loss to this department.

I think that he's co-operated with this department and to Canada and Manitoba , in general. We know that he was accidently killed while performing this duty , and that he was buried yesterday, so I think that all the members would, I'm sure , join me in saying to the family of Dr. Painchaud that we're very saddened by his untimely death . MR. CHAIAN: The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the Minister could very briefly tell us what the future developments will be for riverbank deveoopment.

Riverbank acquisition and development , I think , is very critical to the future of the City of Winnipeg . I think that we're at a particular stage , where a lot of land is underused , and badly used , adjoining right along the river , and I think that it is at this stage that the public has to act , in a sense , to regain the birthright for the general public, regain access to the rivers .

I think that if we can provide more public access to the rivers and as little public building as possible right on the riverbanks , so that people will have access to the rivers , it will really be a tremendous investment for the future of Winn ipeg, not only for 10 or 20 or 50 years but really for centuries .

I think it is really critical that we look at examples like Ottawa , or some of the European cities , and ensure that the riverbanks are kept open , made accessible to all, because I think if we could do that, we would make Winnipeg a far more beautiful city than it is right now, and we would also make it a much more pleasant place, and really reinforce the neighbourhood aspect of Winnipeg if we really pushed that program of Riverbank Acquisition and Development. MR. CHAIAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. BANN: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the remarks made by the Member for Transcona .

We are at present completing the Land Acquisition for Series I, dealing with the the Arc Agreement. Since Series I and Series II were not included in the original Arc Agreement , what we have don is we are trying to negotiate those two Series into the Arc Agreement structure . That means that that would become a cost-sharing phase , which it wasn 't before , with the Federal bgovernment , and would be advantageous to the province . So I understand that negotiations are coming well , there is also a piece of property that is south of the junction in St.

Boniface , that there has been approaches made to try and negotiate within that particular agreement , and the negot iations are com ing along well, and we hope to have that in place in the very near future. MR. PARASIUK: One final comment on this . I would hope that the Min iste r would sit down with the Minister of Urban Affairs so that we can work out a polic y with the City of Winnipeg, so that whereever possible , we can acquire riverbank property , or at least take an opt ion on it, so tha t it isn 't, in a sense, kept in the private domain with a lot of buildings that cut out access to the riverbanks .

I think that we are right at a very favorable time to pursue that. I don 't think that the Arc Agreement with the Federal Government will be sufficient to carry it out . I think it will require some additio nal provincial initiative and it will require some additional city initiative , so I think that the Minister of Tourism and Park Development , and the Minister of Urban Affa irs should sit down with the city to reinforce the strategy that had been developed last year , to at least acquire whatever 4706

Friday, June 30, 1978 riverbank property with in the City of Winnipeg could be acquired, so that it could be preserved for the public domain and preserved for future park development . It might not be possible to do all the park or riverbank development right now, because it is an expensive process, but if you can acquire the sites, you can preserve them for future development, because if you don 't have the sites you really can't talk about future development at all. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.-pass .

Resolution No. 112: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,885,500 for Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs, Acquisition n/Constructio of Physical Assets , $2,885,500-pass . Page 74, Resolution 109, Item 1.(

a) Minister's Compensation -pass. Resolution No. 109: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,940,400 for Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs, General Administration Division , $1 ,940,400-pass . To the honourable members , this completes the Estimates for Tourism , Recreation and Cultural Affairs . Comm ittee rise. The Chairman reported upon the Committee 's deliberations to Mr. Speaker . IN SESSION MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson . MR. KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker , I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member f

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-75
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 75.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a5f34ee23163fb88d76e476ef07215b9dcaad922

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