LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 24 July, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee, come to order. We are on Page 56, Resolution 53, Item 8.(

b) Capital Grants, Universities and School Divisions - the Member for Fort Garry . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, we were at the close, located in 8.(b)(2), I believe . If leave of the committee , I would like to suspend that for a moment and move to 6. in the departmental Estimates . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, just for the record, the committee isn't approving this . There has been a request that we make some accommodation for a number of members who have to leave. There is every willingness on my part to accommodate their needs .

I wouldn't want this to be as a precedent. We normally do follow a much more rigid routine in committee . MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, so it was my understanding. We will then deal, if all are agreed, with Item 6., is the one you wished to move to? MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman , I would just like to put on the record that we appreciate the cooperation and kindness of the present Minister for allowing us to traipse through the financial Estimates of Education without any prearranged order, and we are indeed thankful for his cooperation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Item 6. is the one you wish to deal with at this point? MR. C.

BIRT: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN : Okay, we are on Item 6., Resolution 51, Universities Grants Commission , Page 55 - the Member for Brandon West . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman , I join with my colleague, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, in offering thanks to the Minister for his kindness and the accommodation he's made . We may sound just a little more grateful than we really are at this point , Mr. Chairman, and the Minister may wish he hadn 't made the accommodation later on. Anyway, I thank him for that. Mr.

Chairman, in the last little while, the matter of the Brandon University has occupied some of the time of the House. During the course of the discussions we've been having in the ques tion period , there have been some comments made , notably by the Minister but also by the First Minister, which require a little bit of rebuttal. Rebuttal is not really allowed in the question period but this isn 't question period , so I'll take this opportunity to rebut a few of the comments the Minister has been making.

At one point in one of the question periods , I asked the Minister about the discontinuance of a lawsuit against Mr. Errol Black , discontinued by Dr. Perkins . I asked the Minister if the timing of that discontinuance was not somewhat of a coincidence . The Minister responded that it was probably because Dr. Perkins cares more about the institution of Brandon University than I do. Well, I certainly take offense to that comment. For a number of years, I have been very much a supporter of the activities of the Brandon University. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, when I was quite a lot younger , I went to the Brandon University for my music lessons and Mrs . Smart taught me my lessons well, although the fact that I don 't play very well today cannot be blamed on Mrs. Smart , because she was a very fine music teacher. After she passed on, she was very generous to the university. But later on, Mr. Chairman, as a member of the Brandon City Council, when pressure was applied to remove the grant that the Brandon City Council makes annually to the Brandon University, I was a member of that council and was there to oppose such a move .

The council of the City of Brandon is one of two or else three in the whole country that grants monies to universities, and I must tell the Minister that I've been supportive of that. If I was still on the council, I would continue to be supportive of that. Also when it came to an effort on the part of Dr. Tyler, the interim president at Brandon University, and the efforts by Dr. Mallea, the present president of Brandon University, to attempt to get back on stream private fund-raising efforts for Brandon University, Mr. Chairman , I as a member of a committee of Kinsmen in Brandon took an active

part in seeing that the Brandon University was the recipient of a $150,000 grant from the Kinsmen Club of Brandon. I just point those things out to remind the Minister that I do indeed care about Brandon University very much, and I take offense at statements like that. The other one was the allegation concerning the lawsuit against Mr. Black, the allegation that the dropping of that lawsuit might have been part of the settlement with Brandon University . The Minister claimed that allegation was a spurious one . I asked him about that yesterday, and he repeated that was a spurious allegation .

He says that he gets his information from a member of the Board of Governors . Well, isn 't he lucky! Nobody else seems to get information from the members of the Board of Governors on the settlement at Brandon University . So someone is not telling us the entire truth here because, as we read in the Brandon Sun or in the Winnipeg Free Press, Dr. Perkins does claim that it was no coinc idence that these matters were all settled at the same time. The Minister also said that I suppo rted the change in the presidency at Brandon Unive rsity. That is patently untrue. The fact is, I definitely support Dr.

Mallea and any president at Brandon University who works as hard as Dr. Mallea does to repai r damage done in our community, damage done by a government-appointed Board of Governors at Brandon University. 2199

Thursday, 24 July, 19 86 The other point is that apparently the Min ister would say that, out of the goodness of Dr. Perkins' heart, he discontinued his suit against Mr. Black . I don't understand how someone can claim to be defamed and then, out of the goodness of his heart, drop a lawsuit against that person. The Mi nister talks about me and members on my side of the House doing a di sservice to Brandon University by asking questions.

Later on, I'll be asking the Min ister just what his philosophy is when it comes to the expenditure of pu blic funds because, when an opposition party and its mem bers ask about the spending of taxpayers' dollars, I don't think that's a disservice, Mr. Chairman. Really, I wonder why we're here if it's not to find out just how taxpayers' dollars are spent.

The Mini ster might do well to take a lesson in parliamentary democ racy, he might unde rstand that we're here, he's here asking this House, the members of this House, who are representatives of the people, for money to run his department and to run the institutions in this province, and to throw the answer out that we're doing a disservice by asking questions, does a dis service to the parliamentary system. The other point I want to make is that, at one point, the Min ister told the House that the settlement with Dr.

Perkins, no matter how generous or not so generous, will have no impact on programs at Brandon University. Well, I would like him to explain that statement and how that can possibly be. Su rely, if money is there to pay a wrongful dism issal settlement, that money, if there had not been a wrongful dismis sal, would have been available for programs at Brandon Univ ersity. So, Mr. Chairman, I might start by asking the Mini ster just a little bit about the autonomy socalled of the Board of Governors at Brandon University.

Repeatedly, he and his leader have told the House that it's an autonomous board and apparently, by extension, need not be responsible for the spending of taxpayers' dollars, and I just wond er, I'll give the Min ister an opportunity to tell us just why it is that the Board of Governors, this Min ister or his leader, have no responsibility for the spending of taxpayers' dollars at Brandon Univ ersity. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I don't suppose there is anything particularly new or insightful in the member for Brandon West's comments.

I certainly need no lecture from the Member for Brandon West about the role of the government vis-a-vis the universities, and perhaps the Member for Brandon West has yet to learn some things about the nature of the relationship between governments and univ ersities historically in this province. MR. J. McCRAE: That's why I asked. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the member raised a number of issues, I suppose, not specific ally for the purposes of review of the Estimates of spending, but raised them as issues of concern.

He professes to have a great concern for Brandon Univ ersity and I accept the fact that he does have a concern for Brandon University as I do. I want to reiterate that some of the comments he's made, with respect to the damage done to Brandon Univ ersity by government appointees is a pretty unfortunate - there are other words one could use - kind of remark. I have pointed out to the member, on a number of occasions, that the Board of Governors is 17 individuals, only 10 of whom are appointed by the government.

I have pointed out, and the member should und erstand something about leadership, particularly of an institution like Brand on Universi ty. He cannot say, nor do I believe any member around this table can say, in any defini tive way, what the result of not changing the presidency would have been.

I point out to the Member for Brandon West that there was turmoil at Brandon Univ ersity before the decision was made to replace the president; that the Studen ts Associa tion, that students, facul ty, the commu nity was concerned about the relationship between the president and the board, and the president and other groups in the univ ersity. There is no telling at this point what the result of not making a change in leadership would have been. I don't know all of the details or the history of the decision that was made. I do know that there were legitimate concerns expressed; a decision was taken.

Obvious ly, that decision was concurred in by the majority, if not the entire Board of Governors. So I don't think it's fair to say (

a) that the government­ appointed members created the problem. They were part of what I believe was the solution, and that was a change of leadership. I think there's a certain amount of partisanship creeping into the Member for Brandon West's comments, and that is unfortunate. I ind icate, as well, that the settlement which was negotiated between the Board of Governors and the president, as a result of lawsuits which were initiated by the president, has been resolved.

I suppose that Brandon Univ ersity, and I've ind icated so previou sly, took advice from legal staff that there were some costs to pursuing that to its ultimate conclusion through the courts, the legal costs, which continue to add up, given the protracted nature of the dispute. There were costs in terms of the ability of the un iversity to move ahead with its fund- raising activities, given a rift in the community, a continuing one; and there were costs in terms of the atmosphere surrounding the university and the community of Brandon that needed to be resolved.

The member has raised the question about whether the decision to negotiate a settlement was a wise one. I suppose only the long term, and whether in fact Brandon University gets back onto an even keel, will resolve that issue. There is no simple answer. However, having made the decision, rightly or wrongly, that a change needed to be made, they had two choices, either to make the change or they suffer the consequences. They felt that the consequences were too great not to act, the consequences of leaving that growing problem in the university to fester. I'm not trying to impute any blame.

Who knows why those kinds of problems develop, but it was quite obvious, I think, to all and sund ry, that problems were developing. A decision was made. The board then had another decision, to pursue through legal means this to its conclusion or, as I believe they did on the advice of legal staff, negotiate a settlement which was satisfactory to both parties. Negotiations, if they are to be successful, ultimately have to be satisfactory to both 2200

Thursday, 24 July, 19 86 parties. The alternative is to pursue the only other option, and that is have the courts resolve the dispute. So they made those decisions. Now, if the member is telling me in good conscience, that given his breadth of knowledge of the issues, given his unlimited understanding of what the implications of not acting were, this was a horrendous mistake, then let him say that. I don't think the issue was nearly as clear-cut as the Member for Brandon West pretends, nor do I believe that the decisions that were taken were necessarily not in the interests of Brandon Univ ersity.

I don't think the member can, in good conscience, say likewise. Mr. Chairperson, I find it a little frustrating that the member should refer to the relationship between myself, the Department of Education and the government, in the way that he did. Clearly, there are other autonomous bodie s, qu asi- judi cial bodies in the Province of Manitoba, who get their authority from the Government of Manitoba, who act independently and have acted independingly for many , many years.

In the Province of Manitoba, it would be unheard of for the Provincial Government to start dir ecting the University Board of Governors on whom to hire, whom to fire, whom to negotiate with, what courses to offer, what courses not to offer. I ask the Member for Brandon West: if the Member for Brandon West supports this di rect intervention of un iversity affairs at this level, then where does the Member for Brandon West stop? The member knows as well as anybody else that the issue was raised with respect to the Engineering Faculty at the Univ ersity of Manitoba and its funding. Do I interfere?

Does the Mi nis ter responsi ble for Education, the Mi ni ster responsible for the Un iversity Grants Commission interfere at that level? I can tell the Member for Brandon West that the university presidents, collectively, appreciate the fact that the autonomy of the University Board of Governors has been maintained. The president of the University of Manitoba has ind icated that to me persona lly, because to start pursuing the kind of precedent that the Member for Brandon West has asked for would be, I think, leading us down a new path and perhaps one that, on reflection, we would not want to entertain.

Having said that, I have said in the House; I have said publicly; it was reported in the Brandon Sun, front page, that I believe that the results of the negotiations should be made public. I have maintained that from Day One; I have said it in the House. The First Mini ster has corroborated that position, and that position has been communicated to Brandon Universi ty. I believe that Brandon University Board of Governors will be making a decision to release that information.

I believe that is in the best interests, as perhaps the Member for Brandon West does, of the un iversity community and the univ ersity, so that this issue can be put behind us. But let's be clear about who continued to raise this issue, and for what purp ose. The uni versity community, whether this is made publ ic or no t - and again, remembering what kind of issue we're talking about, not programming, but personality issues around which there is no clear right or wrong in all likelihood. I suppose that is why the decision to negotiate a solution.

I pointed out, not in defence of the University Board of Governor's decision to attempt to maintain some 2201 privacy with respect to the agreement, I point out that talking about the terms of the settlement begged the question of why it was necessary to initiate the action in the first place. Why was it necessary to change leadership, which gets back into the debate of what was wrong at Brandon Univ ersity. Who was right and who was wrong? lt is a vicious circle, if you will. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, the Minister accuses me of partisanship.

You know, this is the place for partis anship, right here, right in this building. Partisanship should not be taking place on the boards of governors of our univ ersities in this province. That is the bottom line here. That's where the partisanship is, Mr. Chairman. For the Min ister to sit here in this committee and pretend that he doesn't know that there's partisanship going on at Brand on University is a shocking admission of his failure to grasp what's going on in his department. I agree, he hasn't been the Minister very long.

He has my condolences to have inherited such a mess from his predecessor, a mess that his predecessor and his leader were key in creating in the first place. What we have here is the bail-out Minister of Education, trying his darnedest to bail out the sullied reputations of certain people in this province who have taken active political roles at Brandon Univ ersity, as well as their political masters here in Winnipeg. Mr. Chairman, the Minister should know, if he doesn 't, full well that the Board of Governors in existence in 19 83, at the time of the firing of Dr.

Perkins, was put together for a specific purpose. In December of 19 83, the comment made at that time was that the Minister at that time, presently the Mi ni ster of Bu siness Deve lopment and Tourism, made the appointments at Brandon Univ ersity on the Board of Governors with the knowledge that there was a faction on the university campus anxious to see the president removed and chose the people who were willing to side with this faction against the president. So we can't just sit here and say it's an autonomous board who made a decision which they thought was in the best interests of the un iversity.

We can't say that it's an autonomous board when the people who put those people on the board were very knowledgeable of the situation, very knowledgeable of the partisan feelings going on in the university, and most specif ically, the Economics Department of the University. The Minister, if he doesn't know that, then he really should know that and why he doesn't I don't under stand. The Honou rable Minis ter of Employment Services and Economic Security is here. Do these Min isters never talk? Do the Mi nisters in this government never consult?

Sur ely the Min ister of Education knows exactly the scenario behind the firing of Dr. Perkins. The Minister tells us that it was wise for a settlement. I agree. lt was very wise because this matter could have dragged for another couple of years and hurt the reputation of Brandon University even more. it's better that it be over with. But we don't know that it's over with until we see the terms of settlement. Has the Mi nister seen the terms of settlement yet? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson, the Member for Brandon West ind icates that it's not over until we

Thursday, 24 July, 19 86 see the terms of the settlement. I'm not clear whether the member is saying that changes any decisions that have been made. MR. J. McCRAE: lt doesn't change any decisions, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. STORIE: That's right, Mr. Chairperson . . . MR. J. McCRAE: But perhaps it's not too late to correct the situation. HON. J. STORIE: . . . that is exactly the point. The issue has been negotiated and a settlement has been reached.

The only issue that coul d be raised by discussing the details of a very personal, in one case, and a very di fficult issue in both cases, follows that the only dispute would be whether it was adequate or inadequate in that sense. I point out, as well, and the member has raised the issue, that there was turmoil, that it wasn't simply this government's board appointees who felt that there was a need for a change.

That feeling was pervasive in the university community amongst the students, the faculty, and some members of the community at large. lt wasn't simply a partisan, political issue as the Member for Brandon West would have us believe. I know that there were people, staff at Brandon University who were not necessarily sympathetic to the government, who did not support the continued tenure of Dr. Perkins. Now, what those reasons were or whether they were valid, as far as I'm concerned, at this point is immaterial. I appreciate the member's comments about the need for a resolution to that continuing conflict.

The member asked whether I was aware of the terms of the agreement. I indicated to the House, and the situation has not changed to date, that I am aware of some of the terms of the agreement. I have not seen the agreement to date so I cannot say with any certainty that I know all of its details.

Wh ile I, too, am curious, I believe that I have enough knowledge, and knowledge that I have provided to the members, that I'm satisfied that while the resolution has been completed, and it is an unfortunate event, that for all intents and purposes, Brandon University has indica ted to me that the resolution has not been at a sacrifice to their operations or the interests of the students that attend Brandon Universi ty. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster says he is aware of some of the terms of the settlement. How did he become aware of some of the terms of the settlement?

If it was through the newspapers, that's what everyone is aware of, but the Min ister seems to be in a position to tell us which ones are wrong and which ones are right. How did he become aware? Did someone from the board tell the Min ister what those terms were? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, yes, I have ind icated on a numb er of occasions that I spoke to the chairp erson of the Br andon Un iversity Boar d of Governors after the negotiations had been concluded. I have confirmed on a number of occasions, essentially the details that have been reported, but again, I reiterate that I have not seen the agreement.

I do not feel that it is my position to make any determination on the merits of the agreement. I have indicated, as well, that I believe the university should be making those public and I indicated, at our first conversation about the potentia l res olution of this issue, that I felt that disclosure was the best option. The decision not to was the University Board of Governors. I believe that the decision to will be the Board of Governors, and hopefully that decision will be forthcoming. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, on September 26, 19 81, there was a meeting at Brandon Univ ersity, I understand, a meeting attended by certain members of the faculty and students at Brandon Univ ersity, a meeting with the then Leader of the Opposition, and now the First Min ister. I understand the Minis ter of Employment Services and Economic Security may have been there and the other candidate at that time in Brandon West, Mr. Henry Carroll, and others. Out of that mee ting came certain assuranc es, according to press reports, that there would be changes to the Board of Governors. Mr.

Black, whom we've heard about, said that we have a commitment from him. If the NDP come to power, I hope he quickly implements some kind of change. Can the Min ister, after consulting with the Member for Bran don East and the former Minister of Education, and the Premier, tell us what commitment there was made at that meeting? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I was not at that meeting, nor was I aware of it for that matter. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I refer the Min ister to a story written by a Mr.

Black in the May, 1983 edition of "Canadian Dimension." lt was a story about one Patrick Moone y, and how the Board of Governors won its battle with the administration at Brandon University to bring Mr. Mooney in to do lectures at Brandon Un iversity. This was, of course, after changes made to the board, the kind that were asked for at the time of the meeting of 19 81. Mr. Black writes in the story, he says: "But the issue that rallied campus people to the NDP was the expectation that election of the NDP Government would lead to a resolution of the problems on the campus. The logic ran something like this.

The election of an NDP Government would lead to changes in the Board of Go vernors and the new board would act to resolve outstanding grievances and introduce constraints on the powers of the president ." We can only assume, Mr. Chairman, what kinds of constraints those faculty people and others in Brand on had in mind.

Then it says: "With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that this was very naive logic but at the time it seemed plausible, especially when the Leader of the NDP and the two NDP candidates in the Brandon riding assured us that there would be quick action to deal with the board. lt lured unprecedented numbers of campus people into the campaigns in Brandon East and Brandon West. As it turned out, the NDP won both Brandon seats, Brandon West for the first time . and so forth. 2202

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 Then shortly after that election, Mr. Chairman, there was a submission made to the governmen t and the first request on that submission was the immediate replacement of all Tory appointments to the board . The Minister talks about partisanship - immediat e replacement of Tory members of the board. Is that partisansh ip here or is that partisanship on the campus at Bra ndon University, Mr. Chairman? HON. J.

STORIE: This may come as a shock to the Member for Brandon West , but the replacemen t of members of boards and commissions who are appointed by 0 /C at the change of a government is not that unusual. I point out that the member, in discussing the - now, I do not know Mr. Black ; I don 't know if I've ever met him .. . MR. J. McCRAE: He's the former president of Brandon East NOP Association . HON. J. STORIE: .. . I don't believe I have . However, the member for Brandon West makes . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . HON. J. STORIE: .. my point. There was turmoil; there was dissatisfaction at Brandon University .

It was there before the appointment of any new government appointees to Brandon University Board of Governors . That is the fact of the matter, and the membe r has not given me any indication as to whether he believes that things would have been as normal had there not been a change of leadership . I believe that what he has just put on the record indicate s that there was a need for a change; and there is only one way for that change to occur - two ways.

Eithe r that change occurs on a mutual understanding and a handsha ke and it's a mutual parting of the ways or the board wre stles with a decision on how to relieve one of his/he r responsibilities . I understand that there wasn 't tha t willingness to

part company on mutually acceptable terms in the first instance. But the Member for Brandon West makes the point that there were problems and they were deep and they were continuing and they required solutions . I point out that the reference to change at Brandon University can also ind icate a number of other needs for change and that is this government, over the last four or five years , has contributed pretty significantly to Brandon Universi ty.

Increased operating funds - not only to Brandon, but other universities - after some horrendou s years, increased miscellaneous grants, increased major capital projects, so I think it' s safe to say that there has been some improvement in the position of Brandon University as a result of the change from government, not only a change with respect to the boar d , although I grant the member that change occurred . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman , Item 4 on the shopping list of the people who put forward this submission was the selection of replacements for the Tory members of the board , from a list of NOP members , compiled by the groups on campus , a list which included trade unionists, women and progressive farmers. Later , Mr. Chairman , three of the people named on that list were indeed appo inted to the Board of Governors, accor ding to Mr. Black , and not too lo ng after th at, Dr. Perkins was gone . Mr. Chairman , I make the point that th e polit ics is not just here and the Mini ster seems to have agr eed with me.

He says ther e was a pro blem and since the firing of Dr. Perkin s, there have been vast impro vements . Let me tell the Mini ster that within th ree months of this progressive move of firing Dr. Perkin s, one pledge to the Brandon Univ ersity from a private individual or from the private sector of $750 ,000 was stopped , was remov ed. Anoth er one .. HON. J. STORIE: I'm sorry, I didn 't catch that reference . MR. J. McCRAE: According to the media , three months later , after th e firing of Dr. Perkin s, there were applications for re bates of donation s a mounting to $125,000 requested from donors.

Two con tribut ions of about $750,000 and $500,000 were put on hold bec ause the donor s wer e upset about the Perkin s dismiss al. The Minister tells us tha t's an approvement. I fail to understand how people, being so upset about wh at happened at Brandon University, being so upset as to take back hundreds of thousands of dollar s in private donations to the university , I fail to see, Mr. Chairman , how that is an improvement . But the bottom line to the whole issue , Mr.

Chairman , is that never have we heard from t he Board of Governors , never from their political masters here in Winnipeg have we heard why Dr. Perki ns was fired; there have been no grounds released that would justify the firing of Dr. Perkins . Dr. Perkins had considerable support in the City of Brandon. Dr. Perkins was brought to Brandon Universi ty to reduce deficits and to increase enrolments. The feeling in Brandon , the perception - (Interjection) - It was the Schreyer Government.

The Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security mak es the point it was the Schreyer Government that was in power when Dr. Perkins came to Brandon and he gives that government all the credit for that. Just a little while ago, the Minister of Education told us it 's the Board of Governors that makes the decisions at Brandon University . Now which Min ister is right, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for Inkster on a point of order . MR. D. SCOTT: On a point of order .

The Member for Brandon West is manipulating words coming out of another member's mouth , and I don't apprecia te him doing that to myself or to any other person . When a person sitting around this table takes a comment that another person makes , in reference to the government, the stripe of the government th at was in office, when that board - and therefore that government would have appointed that board - it would have been , as the Member for Brandon West claims , to be an NOP board , therefore . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: On the point of ord er, that is not a point of order. That is a dispute of the facts .

The Member 2203

Thursday, 24 July, 19 86 for lnkster has no point of order.- the Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Ch airman, the Ho nour able Member for lnkster will go to great lengths to try to defend what appears to be indefensible, which indeed the Board of Governors in Brandon will admit is indefensible, by virtue . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. J. McCRAE: . . . of the fact that a settlement has been made. The Honourable Minis ter from Brandon East tells me I don't know what I'm talking about, but MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. The Member for Brandon West has the floor.

Excuse me, I think the Chairman will interpret the rules - the Member for Brandon West. Does the Member for Brandon West still have the floor or . . . MR. J. McCRAE: Yes, I hope I do, Mr. Chairman. With all these interruptions . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, has the Universities Grants Commission been consulted during the process of settling with Dr. Perkins in an effort to get authorization for funds to flow to Dr. Perkins for this? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: I'm sorry, I missed the last part of that question. MR. J.

McCRAE: Has the Universities Gr ants Commission approved of the expenditure of funds to bring about the settlement with Or. Perkins? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the Univ ersities Grants Commis sion does not appr ove of the expenditure of monies to any one, any individual, any cause, any program. Those decisions are made by the Univ ersity Board of Governors and the administration within it. The Universities Grants Commission is responsible for the global allocation of funding, capital and operating, to the univ ersity.

They, on their own, make the decisions with respect to where and under what circumstances those funds are spent. I do want to add to the member's comment about the loss that occurred, or the potential loss, of money flowing to Brandon University as a result of the change in presidenc y. I hope the member is not suggesting that a number of benefactors, no matter how significant, should determine the policies and the direction of a univ ersity.

I've ind icated that far be it from a few benefactors who were disappointed, disturbed by the happenings, that the University Board of Governors is responsible for un iversity life in its entirety, the well­ being of its faculty, its students and its ability to function. While it is regrettable that some bene factors may have perceived the change as undesirable, I don't think the member is suggesting that because a num ber of benefactors were prepared to provide substantial dolla rs that that shoul d change or rearrange the priorities of the University Board of Governors.

Their priority, obviously , has to be the long-term health of Brandon Univ ersity. The member has tried again to make the point that there was no need for the confrontations. I point out that what the member read into the record, and certainly from anything that I have heard about the situation in the future or recently, ind icates that there were some serious problems and that a number of allegations have been made. lt wasn't a select few of Board of Governors' appointees who determined that it was time for a change, that was a feel ing that was much broader than that. I raised the question again.

The member seems to be indicating that if nothing had been done, if the situation had stayed the same, that Brandon Univ ersity would have resolved its problem. I think it was a question of leadership and I believe that the change has been satisfactory in the respect of gaining again the confidence of the staff and students and the community. In that respect this issue is better behind us. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I obviously disagree with the Minister.

There are significant problems at Brandon Un iversity which remain to be sorted out and I do not have confidence that the present government­ appointed members to the Board of Governors are the ones to sort out those problems. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, if the Member for Brandon West would care to sit down and discuss any of the outstanding issues at Brandon University with me, I would be more than happy to listen and act. The Memb er for Br andon West has not raised any su bstantive current issues, future issues.

He has raised an issue which began some years ago, has the potential for being resolved and put to rest so that Brandon Univ ersity can continue. Some members opposite raised the question of the cost and I point out that not making a decision when it comes to leadership also has a cost and no one can quant ify what that might have been. There were problems and those problems were continuing and had continued over a number of years. The Board of Governors made a decision and it's perhaps too late to judge very accurately whether it was a right or a wrong decision. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, in some of our discussions, the Min ister said that he hoped that the Province of Manitoba was not spending dollars to settle lawsuits with private individuals. I wonder what the policy is. Is that a matter of government policy that Brandon Univ ersity Board of Governors should not be paying the legal bills of private individuals? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I have answered that question before and said that I hoped that was not happening. I ind icated at the first opportunity when it was raised, that I had checked with the vice-chair and ind icated to him subsequently that was not the case.

Su bsequent to his raising it again, I inquired further and I had the same assurance. 2204

Thursday, 24 July, 19 86 MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, might I ask the Minis ter just what that assurance was from the vice-chairman of the Board of Governors? HON. J. STORIE: lt is the same assurance that I put on the record in the House. MR. J. McCRAE: That the settlement between Dr. Perk ins and Mr. Black formed no part of the settlement between Dr. Perkins and Brandon University? HON. J. STORIE: I believe the member's question was whether public funds had been expended to resolve that issue. The answer to that, on both occasions when I had checked, was no. MR. J. McCRAE: In view of those answers, Mr.

Chairman, when the Min ister does get a copy of the terms of settlement, I hope he won't lose his courage and that he will see that it is tabled in the House. Mr. Chairman, in view of the policy of the government respecting paying the legal bills of private individ uals, I will tell the Min ister that on February 28, 19 85, the Board of Governors passed the following resolution: "That the board , having heard the particul ar circumstances, agrees to pay the out-of-pocket legal expenses to date for Mr. Rogosin and Dr. Paton." Now, Mr. Chairman, those legal expenses would have been incurred by Dr. Paton and Mr.

Rogosin as a result of a motion they moved in the Senate of the Brandon University, a motion of no-confidence in Dr. Perkins and outlining certain allegations, after which I presume Dr. Perkins had threatened to file a lawsuit against those two indiv iduals. The Board of Governors paid $1,200, according to this motion - $1,200 of legal expenses - for matters, I assume, leading up to what might have been a lawsuit, but which never did materialize. So I wonder if the Mi nister might look into that and report at some stage as to what he intends to do about that. HON. J.

STORIE: Well, I certainly was not aware of that and I have ind icated that I do not approve of those kinds of expendit ures. The Un iversity Board of Governors, as I've indicated, obviously made that decision. I don't know whether that was followed through or whether it was su bsequently changed, or whether in fact the facts the member refers to are accurate. However, I will review that matter. Mr. Chairperson, let me just clear that up. I'm referring to the activities of a board of governors as a private indi vidual.

If the member is acting in his capacity as a board member, then clearly the respo nsibility is somewhat di fferent. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, for the Minis ter. Dr. Paton is presently a senate appointment to the Board of Governors, but the actions complained of by Dr. Perk ins at the time were actions that were taken in the Senate and not on the Board of Governors. I think the Mi nister should see the distinction there. HON. J. STORIE: I will check into that. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to understand a little better the accounting procedure at Brandon Univ ersity.

I would like to know what contingency is? What fund is contingency? What does that mean? HON. J. STORIE: Essentially that's a fund that is set aside to respond to emergencies unf oreseen. I understand all of the univ ersities have contingency funds, sometimes in more that one area of their department. MR. J. McCRAE: Can the Minis ter show me, in the Auditor's Report for the year 19 85, where there might be an account called "contingency"? I haven't been able to find it.

I did find, in the Provincial Auditor's Report, a Note to the Financial Statements about a contingent liability and I wonder if that's the same kind of account. HON. J. STORIE: I'm informe d that it isn 't, Mr. Chairperson. MR. J. McCRAE: The reason I ask, I guess, is because at that same meeting of February 28, 1985 there was a motion to move $4,500 from Contingency to the Faculty of Arts for student assistance. I just wondered what contingency was. HON. J.

STORIE: I'm told that it's common practice for the univ ersities to have both; in some cases, identi fied contin genc ies for specific pu rposes, fluctuations in heating, or whatever, and contingency funds available within departments that are unspecified for use to resolve smaller issues. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, getting back to the legal bills of Dr. Paton and Mr. Rogosin, what will the Mi nister do if he finds that they've used public monies to settle a threatened lawsuit with these two gentlemen? HON. J.

STORIE: Well, before making any fina l determination of what action I would take, I would want to verify th at in fact happ ened and un der what circumstances; and what possibilities there were for action, either on behalf of the Universities Grants Commission, or whether there needs to be some firmer policy developed in that respect. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, if after checking twice now with the vice-chairman of the Board of Governors about the di scontinuance of the lawsuit against Mr. Black, if the Mi ni ster finds that was part of the settlement between Dr.

Perk ins and the university, what will be his action at that time, if he finds that what Dr. Stewart has told him turns out not to be the truth. HON. J. STORIE: I don't expect that to be the case. MR. J. McCRAE: it's too hypothetical for the Mini ster. Mr. Chairman, recently the university has been engaging in having consultant studies done. I'd like to ask the Min ister, since the firing of Dr. Perkins, how many dollars have been spent on consultant studies and how many during the tenure of Dr. Perkins, in terms of dollars. Is that information not readily available? I take it's not. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, we are here to review the Es tima tes for the yea r 19 86- 87. The 2205

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 information the member requests would obviously take some review, not only of this year's, but previous years' budgets going back some 10 years, I understand. So if the member would like to issue an Order for Return for that kind of information, I can certainly attempt to provide it. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that any purpose would be served by pressing an issue that far, any useful purpose. If it had been available, that would have been an interesting thing to know.

But I wonder if the Mi nister has been made aware of the Marchak Report; a report commissioned for Brandon University by Professor Patricia Marchak, respect ing the Arts Faculty. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I und erstand that the Marchak review is kind of a quality su rvey that all universities undertake from time-to-time and that is not out of the ordinary in that sense. I would indicate to the member's previous question that I'm informed that there have been very few consultant reports at Brandon University over the last number of years. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, I sugg est he might be interested in getting his hands on the Marchak Report. lt's a pretty interesting report about the Faculty of Arts. As you may already know, Mr. Chairman, Professor Errol Black has been quite a vocal individual in the Brandon area. You might find his name in the Editorial column of the paper quite often. In fact, he writes also to the Winnipeg Free Press and he wants the whole world to know what his feelings are. He's active, I would say, in the Economics Department at the Brandon University. Mr.

Chairman, just as a matter of interest, when we talk about the politicizing of the Brandon University HON. J. STORIE: I haven't been talking about that. MR. J. McCRAE: . . . I have. Dr. Marchak criticized the Economics Department for its lack of cooperation in the study; and for its one-sided Marxist political and economical bias. The whole news report of the Marchak Report is filled with comments about political wrangling and political difficulties at Brandon Universi ty. You just have to wonder how these things happen when the board is so non-political, as the Mi nister would have us believe. HON. J.

STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson, the member refers to an individual faculty member. Obviously each faculty member is entitled to their own particular views. I'm not sure that is dir ectly relevant to his overriding concern about the appointments to Brandon University. MR. J. McCRAE: There may be some truth in what the Mi nister says, Mr. Chairman, but Mr. Black just happens to be the Senator who moved the motion in the Senate to ask the Board of Governors to pay the legal expenses incurred by Dr. Paton and Mr. Rogosin.

After a little while you kind of get the feeling that there is something going on down there that perhaps the Mi nister should be aware of. If he ha sn't been aware of it, really, why hasn't he been? Does he not consult with the Honou rable Member for Brandon East, or does the Honourable Member for Brandon East not think these matters are important? I take it that's a question that the Mini ster shouldn't have to ans wer. HON. J. STORIE: I do take the member's concern seriously. If I can avail myself of a copy of the Marchak Report, I would be most interested to read it.

I would also indicate that I hope to be able to set aside considerable time to inform myself of the affairs of all our univ ersity campuses and to ensure that my working relationship with the Presidents and the Board of Governors thereof are cordial and fruitful. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, another study commissioned by, I believe, the Board of Governors and the Brandon University . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. lt's getting very di fficult to hear the member who's trying to pose the question. MR. J.

McCRAE: And the Br andon Uni versity Foundation, the Gordon Goldi e Report , a firm of consultants from Toronto, was asked to look into why it is that Brandon University is having so much trouble raising funds priv ately in the Br andon area and everywhere else. The report made the case. or made the point that the reason money couldn't be raised, or couldn't successfully be raised in this way, was the attitude taken by members of the Board of Governors. What response would the Minister have if he received a report like that? What would the Min ister do if he received a report like that? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I am not sure that Brandon Univ ersity, throughout its history, since 1957, has had much success fund-raising. I don't attribute that failing to an individual on the Board of Governors, or the Board of Governors themselves, I think if the member considers it for a moment, he will find that virtually every university in Canada has had trouble raising money from the private sector and arranging donations and contributions in endowments, etc. I don't necessarily find that surprising and, unless I knew what the word "attitude" meant, perhaps then I could comment.

I reflect only on the member's earlier comment that a numb er of endo wments, or contributions which were promised to the un iversity, were not forthcoming as a result of the change of leadership. If the university is concerned, the Board of Governors is concerned about leadership and the direction of the university is the result of that lack, perhaps if that's the attitude that the people are concerned about, that they're more concerned about the students in the university than in indi vidual !under's priorities, then that might make sense.

I guess I'd have to know more about what the attitude was that was causing the concern. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, the report was received, I suppose, shortly before May 8, 1985, over 2206

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 two years after the firing of Dr. Perkins when , as the Minister says , relationships were improving so much in Brandon. The report lays the blame for the problems of raising money squarely on the shoulders of the Board of Governors for alienating potential sponsors following the firing of former president, Harold Perkins. The Minister wants concrete facts.

The report said that there could be more than $400,000 in untapped donations in the local bus iness community , untapped and not there and not available to the university because, according to the report commissioned by the university, because of this alienation brought about by the actions of the Board of Governors. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , I remind the honourable member that the previous president had been in place and operating for a cons iderable perio d of time , some five years , with virtually no particular results, or outstanding results.

I point out again that the member keeps referring to the issue of $400,000 in potential donations. I raise the question, and one that he has not addressed in any of his comments to me, the issue of what price do you attach to the issue of leadership? How important is a cohesive faculty and student body? How important is it that a university have a sense of direct ion that everyone feels is adequate and appropriate? What price tag do you put on that? Is the member suggesting for $400,000 that that isn 't important? That's another question that has to be asked. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, according to the Gordon Report, many alumni said they felt humiliated by the controversy at Brandon University and would not support the university until the leadership of the present Board of Governors is changed , or changes in its attitude toward representation by the business community in Brandon .

The Minister must remember that prior to the changes that were made by his government to the Board of Governors - these are the problems that the Gordon Report tells us about, this study commissioned by the Board of Governors - I can 't quite understand what the Minister is saying either, I guess , because we seem to have a very clear reason here, as reported to us by the Gordon Report, as to why there are difficulties there. By this time, Dr. Perkins was gone for over two years. HON. J. STORIE: My point was exactly the one the member raised. Dr.

Perkins was there for some five, six, whatever number of years, seven years. There was very little money raised during that period of time. The problem spans many presidents, many Boards of Governors, many universities. It isn't a problem solely related to Brandon University. The reflection the member makes on the attitude of individuals in the Brandon community in 1985, I believe he said, there were other excuses, obviously in 1979, or in 1973. There simply have not been substantial funds coming forward by way of donations. You raised the issue of the report being done since the changes in presidency.

I can only assume that the new president is actively pursuing, once again , given that there is a more cohesive atmosphere surrounding the university, the opportunities that may be available for fund-raising outside the university. Mr. Chairperson, just before I continue, I should indicate that one of the concern s of the Board of Governors , in reaching a settlement with Dr.

Per kins , was the issue in the community of the lingering dispute that, in fact , there were people, not only on the Board of Governors, but alumni who felt that was an outstanding issue that needed to be resolved and I'm sure, at this point , are applauding the fact that's been resolved. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Attorney-Genera l. HON. R. PENNER: Just a brief note.

The member should be aware that corporate donations to universities throughout North America have been steadily declining since the end of the Second World War, to the point where many universities, particularly in the States where some of the most prestigious have depended for their existence on such funding, are in serious financial shape . The Membe r for River Heights will know that the student fees at Harvard are somewhere close to $20,000 a year in order to maintain Harvard , because it can no longer depend on the corporate donations , and this in the richest coun try in the world.

I think that it's perhaps a bit simplistic to suggest that corporate donations go up and down depending on the composition of the board. Indeed, if that suggestion were to be taken seriously , then what is being said is that you can sort of purchase a university and that would be far, far more dangerous , it seems to me, than the loss of income from the corporate sector from time to time. This is not to say that I'm opposed to corporate donations. In fact , the corporate donations that are best received by universities are those that are given for research in different areas.

There they tend to be, because they are for research, free from strings and the dangerous tendency to influence the independence of thought , which should be at least something that is cherished in the university atmosphere. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman , I appreciate the comments made by the Attorney-General, but perhaps he didn 't hear earlier when I made the Minister of Education aware that, almost immediately after the firing of Dr. Perkins, one pledge of $750,000 was cancelled. Another one for $500,000 was cancelled, and one for, I believe I said - (Interjection) - were held back which MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order please . The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE : And a third donation was asked to be returned in the amount of $125,000 , I think I said. So that in this situation, I point out for the information of the Attorney-General, we're talking about something just a little different than the ability of all universities to raise money. Here we had money almost in the hand, which we lost because of the dealing s of the Board of Governors with the then president of the university. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , I'm still not clear what the member is saying.

Is the Member for Brandon West suggesting seriously that , if a change of leadership 2207

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 was required in the interests of the community and the students of Brandon Univ ersi ty, for a sum of pledge of $750,000, it shouldn't have been made. We should have jeopar dized the un iversity; we should have jeopardized the ability of the un iversity to cope; we should have jeopardized the relationship that needs to exist between the university and the community and the uni versity faculty and the students. Is that what the member is saying? MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster is assuming that I agree that a change of leadership was required.

I thought I straightened that out at the very beginning this even ing, when I said the Min ister was putting words in my mouth. At no time have I said that a change of leadership was required. This was a decision taken by the Board of Governors, for which it's now paying dearly, for which the people of Manitoba are now paying dearly. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'll be brief, because I'll be putting the same remarks on the record that I put the last time the Education Estimates were up.

I had the opportunity to spend most of my summer with Brandon people and I know many people in Brandon through my previous experience in my work, etc. Until the Mini ster faces the fact that the alumni and the people of Brandon, the majority of people of Brandon, are not going to donate to the University of Brandon until you change the chairman of the board and the board, you will not get that many donations. So you may as well face the facts.

If you're not going to face them, you're not going to get donations. it's the same thing I put on the record last year and, if you're going to ignore it, you'r e just going to be in trouble. HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I'm not as MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Member for Brandon East knows it, too. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I recognize that certain individuals, perhaps because of their . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mi nister of Education has the floor, please. Can we have some order? Can we have some order, please? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I und erstand that there are certain individuals who, for partisan reasons, would choose not to . . . MR. J. McCRAE: I'm getting a lot of calls from NDPer's these days, I have to tell you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. HON. J. STORIE: . . . would not choose to honour their pledges or wish to donate. I suppose that, in itself, is regrettable. I don't know whether that is, in fact, the case. I do know that the Member for Brandon West and perhaps members of the opposition do not accept the view that the Brandon University Board of Governors took, that a change was required.

I have not heard the Member for Brandon West deny the fact that there was strife at the Brandon University, and it was not simply individuals on the Board of Governors. it was students; it was other faculty members, not necessarily in a partisan way, but concerned about the direction. I think those facts are fairly well recognized. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, in 1985, this is two years after the firing of Dr. Perkins and after the situation at Brandon University, according to the Minis ter, was stabilized and improving, one member of the Board of Governors decided that he couldn't take it anymore and he quit.

He wasn't a government appointment, Mr. Chairman. He was the alumni appointment, and the chairman may know the gentleman, Mr. Gary Mi ller. He left the board in frustration and he said: "I feel there is a certain amount of manipulation on the part of the board, particularly with this issue," this issue being The Brandon University Act issue which I'll bring up and raise up in a little while. Mr. Miller said the following: "The very things Mr.

Potter and the present executive were criticizing the previous administration and the previous executive for doing, they have multiplied tenfold." Now I can assure this Min ister that Mr. Miller is certainly not a member of the Progressive Conservative Party. Neither is he a member of the New Democratic Party. Mr. Miller said also that what they have at Brandon University was a three-person show with decisions being made unilaterally by Bill Potter, Bill Paton and Bev Peters. Now, Mr. Chairman, it'll be known by some here that Bev Peters is no longer on the board.

Bev Peters ran for nomination in Brandon West to seek the NDP nomination to run against me, although she didn't make it. She lost that nomination, and she went on to her reward. I believe she's now making more money than an ML A as an assistant to the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Securi ty. I think she makes $37,000.00. The Mi nister tells us that she's a very competent person, but these are the remarks we hear from Mr. Miller, presumably one member of that board who would likely be the least partisan of the two sides involved.

We get comments that the criticism of the previous administration has multiplied tenfold with this board. I'm just wond eri ng, I'm really trying hard, Mr. Chairman, to make a point here, but the Minister doesn't seem to grasp what I've been saying for the last hour and 15 minutes. We're facing a very serious situation at Brandon Univ ersity. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek tried to tell the Minister what the problem is.

The Minis ter is an alumnus of Brandon University and, as a visitor to Brandon University occasionally, should be able to see what is plain to everyone else, as plain on the nose on anyone's face, what is happening at Brandon University. There's a heck of a lot of politicization going on there, politicizing of the Board of Governors. The responsibility for that rests with this government which has been making all the appointments. 2208

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 Mr. Chairman, one of the present vice-presidents of Bran don University, according to a Brandon Sun

article in March of 1985, one Meir Serfaty made the point that the government was responsible for a univ ersity crisis. This time, it had to do with government restraint. That was in 1985. I'm telling you there was no Bill C-96 in 1985, and this government was in power in 1985. Mr. Serfaty was another one touted to run for the nomination in Brandon West for the NDP; he didn't. I'm just trying to make a few points with the Mini ster so that he'll under stand that everyt hing is not all right at Brandon University. I've been trying to tell him for the last three weeks.

He pretends not to hear; he pretends not to listen. He's protecting certain people in Brandon ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I would suggest to the member that he is imputing motive. I would suggest that he not use unparliamentary terms. I would also suggest to the member that it is not in order. This is not the House where you're going to yell from the back. The fact is the member has put unparliamentary references on the record. I would ask him to withd raw them. I think the member has enough experience to understand what he has done. Would the mem ber withd raw tho se remarks and continue. MR. J.

McCRAE: May I ask the Chairman which specific remarks it is and if they were un parliamentary I'll certainly withdraw them. MR. CHAIRMAN: You were suggesting the Min ister was pretending which is imputing a motive, as one factor. I would ask you to withdr aw that. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I will do your bidding and with draw if I have said something that's un parliamen tary, but I didn't kn ow that the word "pretendi ng" was in the list in Beauchesne's Citation 320. MR.

CHAIRMAN: You were suggesting that the Mi nister, who is a member of the Legislature, was pretending, which is imputing a motive to the Min ister. I made a ruling. MR. J. McCRAE: I've accepted your ruling, Mr. Chairman. I am asking . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West, would you please continue. MR. J. McCRAE: I've withd rawn any offen ding comments but I ask in what way is it imputing motives, anything that I've said tonight. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Pretense is an opprobrious term to say that someone is acting as a matter of pretense which means that they're misrepres enting, that they're being disho nest; that is pretense. The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: The Memb er for Springfield, referring to yourself, as you were talking, said oh, you shit. MR. G. ROCH: I never said that. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, you did and I demand that that be withdrawn. MR. G. ROCH: I did not. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. G. ROCH: A point of order.

The Attorney-General has said something accused me of saying something which I did not say, and I want him to withdr aw it right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General has made a comment accusing the member of something which I did not hear. I will peruse Hansard tomorrow and, if necessary, will refer it to the Speaker as appropriate. I would sugg est to the member . . . MR. G. ROCH: Do you have to peruse Hansard? Mr. Chairman, peruse the remark of the Member for Brandon West, as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: I have made an order on my in terpr etat ion.

If you look at Rule 64(3) it says: "Chairman of a Committee in the Whole House shall maintain order and decide all questions of order." I have made a decision on a question of order. The member has accepted it, let us continue with the business of the Estimates. The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, just in case I wasn't clear. At no point have, or would, I ever impute improper motives on the Mi nister of Education.

The Min ister of Education is stuck with a very bad situation and if I said pretense I should not have said that, but it will serve no good purpose for this government to ignore what is happening in Brandon and what has been happening in Brandon. I'm just trying, in the best way I can, Mr. Chairman, to bring to the attention of the Min ister that there is a problem and we cannot say there is no problem because there is a problem, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to refer briefly to The Brandon University Act which has been a matter of discussion in Brandon among people interested in matters at Brandon Univ ersity. There was a draft act sent to the department. I unde rstand it is now in the hands of the Univ ersities Grants Commission. I und erstand when it first was sent to the Univ ersities Grants Commission it was returned to the Board of Governors of Brandon University asking for certain clarifications, changes or whatever, and the Chairman of the Board of Governors alleged that the Universities Grants Commission was nitpicking.

Well, I'd like to know where we're at with The Brandon University Act now. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, it, like the act relating to the University of Winnipeg are being reviewed and, although it was not possible to introduce them for the current Session, upon that review, it is certainly possible that they will be brought forward in the coming year or years. 2209

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 MR. J. McCRAE: Does the Mini ster propose any changes to the act before it is presented to the House? HON. J. STORIE: I have not reviewed the act sufficiently to indicate where there may be need for changes. I would like to make the acts consistent across the uni versities so that there is an understanding and equal footing on all universities, and that they all are operating on a similar, equivalent basis. Until I've had a chance to review the proposed acts and the current acts governing the College Universitaire de St.

Boniface and the University of Manitoba that we will await further clarification. MR. J. McCRAE: I'm not sure I'm as familiar as I'd like to be with the composition of boards of trustees, boards of regents, boards of go vernors at other universities. Perhaps the Minis ter can tell me, on other boards in this province, how many of the appointments are government, as opposed to appointments by other groups in terms of percentage. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I can and that is one of the reasons why I ind icated in my earlier response that I would like to make them consistent because there is no consistency.

Currently the University of Brand on has 17 appointments, 10 of which are from the government. The University of Manitoba has 23, of which 12 are authori zed by the gov ernment. The University of Winnipeg has 10 out of 32. Again, historically a different configuration because of circumstances when it was created as the University of Winnipeg. The St.

Bon iface College has no appointments from the government. lt creates a set of circumstances where, while you have the same responsibility in many respects to each of those university bodies, you don't have the same input, nor do they reflect necessarily the opinion of the wider community. MR. J. McCRAE: By the numbers the Mi nister gave us, if my arithmetic is correct, it appears that on none of the boards, except the Brandon University Board, do we have a majority of government appointments to the boards. HON. J. STORIE: I believe 23 out of 12 at the University of Manitoba represents the majority. MR. J.

McCRAE: 12 out of 23. HON. J. STORIE: 12 out of 23, you stand corrected. MR. J. McCRAE: I told you not to trust my arithmetic, Mr. Chairman. In any case, I think in the case of Brandon University where you have 10 of 17 being government appointments, you have rather more of a majority of government appointments. I've made statements about my feelings about the composition of the Board of Governors, Mr. Chairman, and I think the statements I made, and I believe the Mini ster who represents Brandon East will back me up on this, that my comments were non-partisan comments.

During the election campaign when I was asked about the make-up of the Board of Governors my response was that if a Progressive Conservative Government had formed a government, that the Liberals and the New Democrats for Brandon and area need n't feel that they would be left out of important decisions respecting Brandon Univ ersity. I would only hope that maybe the NDP would adopt the same kind of policy and make non-partisan appointments in consultation with people in the community who know the university best.

Here I don't refer to conferring with the present government appointments on the Board of Governors, I refer to business and civic and school trustee-type leaders in the City of Brandon when it comes to making appointments. I don't know they've been done in the past, I didn't ask the Mini ster that question, maybe the Mi nister can tell me how appointments are made.

I know that some were made directly as a result of the submi ssion made by those people I mentioned earlier just after the 1981 election, but I really would like to see a less politicized Board of Governors and I would like to hear what the Mi nister has to say about that. HON. J. STORIE: Well, I'm not sure whether the Member for Brandon West is enunciating a new policy on the part of the Conservatives. I can assure him that, in 1977, there were changes to the appointments of the Board of Governors. MR. J. McCRAE: And no doubt there always will be, but that's ... HON. J.

STORIE: Well now, the member raises the point, no doubt, there always will be. I want to indicate that I have some sympathy for his point of view. That's why I take very seriously the responsibility of changing or introducing acts governing universities, because I think there is some requirement for a careful look at the relationship between the board of governors and the broader community and how it represents the communi ty.

I can indicate that I have communicated that feeling and that concern to the presidents of the univ ersities in a meeting some month-and-a-half ago or two months ago, where the issue of appointments and the need for appointments to reflect differing segments of the community was raised with me. I have some sympathy for that. I hope that, when we do make changes to the acts, perhaps some of the comments from the Member for Brandon West will be reflected in that. MR. J.

McCRAE: I sincerely hope my comments will be reflected in that, and that the Minister will join with me in working towards helping to heal the rift that has developed over the last number of years. Whenever it started, we can argue about all day and all night. But the point is that the problems have not gone away yet and I believe, when the Mi nister does see the settlement and when it is made public, there will be very good reasons for the Mi nister to take a very, very serious look at the composition of the Board of Governors of Brandon Univ ersity.

I plead with the Min ister to do that and, as terms expire or before if necessary, changes be made to that Board of Governors so that it accurately reflects the feelings of a broad cross-section of the people in Southw estern Manitoba. Let's not forget that Brandon University serves a very wide area and it also serves foreign students and 2210

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 students from all over Canada as well. Let's try to make Brandon University a univ ersity that does reflect the concerns and the feelings of the people in the area, ins tead of one narrow, som ewhat lef t-lea nin g perspective. HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson , I thank the Memb er for Br andon West for that extremely nonpartisan review of the current situation at Brandon University.

I certainly wouldn't want to reflect on his closing remarks in any formal sense, other than to say that I believe the member und errates the interests of the current Board of Governors in Brandon Universi ty. There may be differences of opinions. However, Mr. Chairperson, I recognize the member's concern; it has been registered. I have not said that the current situation at Brandon Univ ersity has settled satisfactorily. I recognize that there are some continuing concerns, and the member has raised a number of them.

I do intend to review that issue, and perhaps become better informed of what people perceive to be the problems and where there are potentials for solution. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if we might move to that portion of the Estimates dealing with small schools. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, if that is agreed, we will move to 4.(h), under Regional Services, Page 52 - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In the Small Schools Grants that fall underneath Regional Services, what you are indicating to us is that would be where the funds would come from. My question would be regarding the changes that came about regarding the assistance to Hu tterite colonies. Can the Minister or the department tell me if there was a serious number of requests from Hutterian brethren regarding rent for their facilities that they provide for schools on their own colonies? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I und erstand that the previous Min ister met with the elders of the Hutterian Brotherhood in Manitoba.

That concern that was raised, was raised as an issue in many different areas of the province. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, D. Scott: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess the question then becomes whether it was ever determined if these colonies had, in fact, had any discussions with their local school boards before they made presentations to the Min ister. I'm wondering whether or not they should be getting additional rent for their facilities. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chai rper son, not to my kno wledge. There is no cir cums tance where the 2211 province pays rent.

Now, school divisions may in some instances; in some. I guess they don't. But those arrangements are made, I guess, with school divisions directly, I suppose sometimes at the request of the Hu tterian Brotherhood. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Perhaps I should take the question back one step then. lt seemed to me that this was a situation that perhaps got blown out of proportion, possibly in a haste to make brownie points with the Hu tterian brethren, or to direct an answer at a question that maybe was not clearly und erstood when the question came forward.

There are some school divisions that have paid rent over the years to the Hu tterian brethren for the schools that are used on the colonies to educate their children. lt varies, and I know that there have been no specific ground rules. it's always been a case of negotiation between the divisions and the colonies.

I guess I'm trying to understand why the department chose to put it in such a way where, in a letter to the Hu tterian colonies and to the school divisions that had colonies within their borders, to indicate that there should be rent paid or that, rather than to indicate to the brethren at the time they made contact with the department that perhaps their first line of approach would be directly to the divisions involved. lt seems to me that - if I could just take it one step further - there were a lot of divisions who weren't even aware that they had a problem.

In fact, the elected trustees have always been elected to represent all of the people within their wards and there seems to be a short circuiting of the system and rather special terms were inserted between a legitimate group in the community and the school divisions. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I have indicated and the member is probably aware that the nature of the communication that took place was not adequate, and that the member is quite correct in that school divisions should have been obviously informed of the changes in policy and direction.

However, the member also is aware that not only the Hu tterian Brotherhood comes to raise its concerns with the Mi nister of Education, the parents' rights or the superintendents have their own agenda which they raise directly with government and the Minis ter of Educa tion. There are many individual groups who may or may not have got their concerns directly to the school division who see government as an avenue for redress of their concerns.

I'm assuming that some of the issues that were addressed in the letter had been raised with one or some of the school divisions, perhaps not all; but given again the structure of the Hu tterian community, I suppo se it made some sense to them to address them as a group directly to the Mi nister. I certainly wouldn't want the member to be left with the feeling that I support the circumvention of the system.

I think in many cases we have indicated, as the department has indicated, representatives from the department have indicated, that the normal routine for requests is through the school division in the first instance. That should, as a matter of policy, I think, continue. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I appreciate the Min ister' s remarks, because I think that he has perceived what

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 I'm leading up to, because I think it would be a very dangerous situation if every time a group within the community approached the department and made a request that information came back to that group directly and was not communicated to the divisions, perhaps even ind icated to them for further discussion.

I would also point out, as I'm sure the Mi nister has realized that I've raised the issue when the House first opened, that the letter that went out during the writ period of the election, directly to the Hu tterite colonies, was, as far as I was concerned, a dir ect affront to the school boards of this province and certainly was very likely an affront to the Hutterian Brotherhood, the way it went out indicating changes that should be brought about in their relationship with the school divisions and changes that would be coming forthwith regarding funding, regarding allocation of funds for furnishings and all of those things which the Reverend Kleinsasser had presented, I believe, on behalf of his church.

I don't object to the fact that he made the presentation and that it was heard by the department. In fact, I don't even resent the fact that the department even tually responded and acted. The concern was that the action, if every question that came before the department, were treated with the same reaction, I think we very soon would have almost no responsibility as far as locally autonomous boards are concerned. HON. J. STORIE: I'm chuckling, Mr.

Chairperson, because I think I raised this same issue with the Member for Brandon West only moments ago, the question of autonomy of groups out there who try to run their own affairs. The member makes my point and I'm going to try and be consistent and agree with him as I ind icated with respect to the Board of Governors. I believe, Mr. Chairperson, that the member has a good point. I would also ... MR. G. CUMMINGS: You're putting words in my mouth, Jerry, now just a second. HON. J. STORIE: lt certainly wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth. I recognized the words in your mouth.

I am trying to put words in my mouth and I do it correctly sometimes. Come on, words. lt seems to me that the member should und erstand that this response, which I acknowledge did come during an election period, was not simply addressed at that one meeting; that, in fact, this issue had been raised on a number of occasions over a number of meetings and that the meeting at which this issue was finally resolved was, I believe, established long before the calling of the election. So the timing of our meetings, of course, as Ministers, is scheduled months and months in advance.

I ended up in Roblin-R ussell the day before the election and I can assure you, a coincidence, a meeting that had been established for some time. lt simply happened. So I wouldn't want the member to read into all of these things implications which are not there. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess the concern I have about the local autonomy and the responsibility of the boards: there are very few appointed boards of trus tees and they are locally elected, and they therefore have that responsibility which they take upon themselves on part of the electorate.

I guess the reason that I wanted to make sure that I raised my point regarding the direct communication that went out during the writ period was that it wasn't until June that that letter was in fact legitimized by a following letter that went to the school divisions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I recognize the member's point about the different structures of school divisions and University Board of Governors.

I do point out that, in terms of the their responsibilities, they are essentially the same, that they are autonomous and that they were provided with sums of public money to allocate as they see fit, in essence. So there are some similaries. Howe ver, that is not the point of the debate. I want to ind icate that while the original letter went out in here, I believe, and I think I've saicl so, without the appropriate notice to school divisions. But the member is incorrect in that school divisions were notified by letter of the error and informed of the decisions by letter of March 17.

Subs equently, the full details were provided in June. But there was some correspondence. I wouldn't want to leave the impression that something happened in March and no effort was made to resolve the oversight until June. There was a subsequent letter that went out March 17 indicating that there had been an error. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'm quite prepared to let the Mi nister start with a clean slate, although he appears to have inherited a few thorns along the way here.

Regarding the statement or the policy statement, if you will, that went out, the message is out, not only to the divisions but also to, I suppose the colonies would be part of that information as well, that the funds allocated for small schools should be allocated in a manner so that the parents of those particular schools have some inp ut on how those fund s should be allocated. I have a little trouble with that thinking, Mr. Chairman, and I wonder if the Min ister can tell me why we would choose that route.

We have certainly no qualms about parents - after all, it's their children who are in the schools - but your elected officials are charged with the responsibility of delegating or delineating where funds should be spent. I really wonder what is the intent behind this type of an idea, whereby there are now particular funds that should have a parental council of some sort - although that's not spelled out - but should have some other method of decision-making applied to their expenditure. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I can only indi cate that obviously the concern was th at, gi ven the importance of the school to that community and to all communities, there was a desire to ensure that the projects that, as they were developed and prepared, were seen as prioritie s, and I believe that school divisions, by and large, do that. I guess the issue that was raised with the Min ister at that time, there was a perception, rightly or wrongly, 2212

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 on the part of some elders that they and their communties weren't as intimately involved as they would have liked to have been; and what the Mi nister was indicating was that we would hope that could be addressed in some way. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I don't question the fact that concern may have been put forward by the colonies, but while the sums of money are not large, I certainly have no knowledge of where school divisions have misapprehended - if there's such a word - small schools funds and used them for pu rposes in the small schools that were not sound educational reasons.

The reason that I flagged this, Mr. Min ister, is because there is an option, as I und erstand it, in small schools grants whereby those funds could be used for additional staff. If the community is also involved, and certainly the trustees represent that community, then it becomes very difficult for the people charged with the educational responsibility to be able to allocate those funds in areas that they are conv inced would have the most educational value in those schools.

I see there could be a considerable amount of difficulty in some of the small schools in coming to agreements which will be easily put into place on the expenditure of these funds because the addition of equipment, as opposed to the addition of perhaps an aide or part-time staff, is a decision that's very difficult to make and parents who have students of greater or lesser capabilities, for example, within the same school, will have very divergent views on how this money should be spent; and the decision has been taken out of the hands of those who were originally charged with the educational responsibility. HON.

J. STORIE: I'm afraid it must be getting late, Mr. Chairperson. I think I missed the member's point. The fact ... MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'll put it more simply. My point is that it makes the decision process on how to allocate those funds very complicated. The decision process is being changed in the way it's handled within the divisions. What reason would the department have to have made a decision such as that? MR. J. STORJE: Mr. Chairperson, I don't think that was the intention.

I believe the member remarked earlier that the decisions that are being made are being made in the best educational interests of the students that they serve. I would point out that the practice in terms of small school grants has not changed, in that the expenditure categ orie s which can form the parameters for application include from microcomputers to industrial arts to special education to human resources, so that there is a range, and it depends on the priorities as seen by the school board.

I think the only emphasis that was placed on it was because this is small schools and small schools tend to be th ose that are thr eatened or potentially threatened, that the imp ortance of communi ty involvement, involving the local community, was seen as more of a priority in this area than in some others, although it's recogn ized that boards seldom, if ever, 2213 act in a uni lateral, heavy-handed fashion, that they do in fact . . . The Member for River Heights is smiling. School boards obviously wish to represent the interest of all of their constituent communities. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: In the English as a Second Language aspect of the funding that has been allocated to the Hu tterian schools, is this going to be a situation where those funds will all be allocated for expenditure there and, in fact, regardless of any eval:.lation of the ability of those students to speak English, the funds will be spent there for staf fing. Will there be an evaluation of their ability to speak the language? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, the consultants within the department review, I guess, the language capability, if you will, in that the grants are not automatic, that in fact there has to be a perceived need for English as a Second Language grants for that to be approved. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Then how is that different from the - why is it specific now? Is that not virtually the same regu latory system that's always been in place for English as a Second Language? HON. J. STORIE: The difference, Mr.

Chairperson, is that originally the ESL Grant Support Program was only for immigrants and this is an extension into the Hu tterian school system. MR. G. CUMMINGS: One other odd situation that I encounte red - and perhaps I stand corrected if this has changed recently - but it seems to me that if a student of French speaking parentage moved into an English community and wished to attend that school, there would not be funding for English as a second language. Is that correct? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, that issue hasn't been raised, but the member raises an interesting point about whether it wouldn't be appropriate. I've indicated that originally the program was designed for immigrant children, that this was extended because of kind of unique circumstances in the Hutterian communities, the member raises another question. Clearly we would be talking about exceptional circumstances there, probably only applying to one child or two children, and the school division might be in a better position to provide assistance without resorting to an overall change in polic y. But he raises an interesting point.

MR. G. CUMMINGS: Well, the hiring of an aide, of course, would be an additional cost, but it would be one way of addres sing it. I wonder - and it just struck me now in this line of questioning, Mr. Min ister - if the department hasn't possibly opened a can of worms here, because there are other communities besides the Hutterian communities who have a sincere desire to teach their ancestral language in the home.

What better way to teach it than to speak nothing but the ancestral language at home, and then send the children to school and have English as a second language funding kick into place, so that their children will become fluent very quickly in the English language. My concern here

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 extends to what could happen down the road because of this rather unique situation than try to be addressed on an ad hoc basis. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I think the member is perhaps reaching somewhat in that speculation. I think it would be unlik ely that a parent would - particularly a parent with a capacity in English to do that - given that the ESL grants are only for two, and possibly three years, and perhaps he's putting considerable more faith in the ability of the ESL Sup port Program to compensate for the fact that English isn't a first language than is actually the case.

MR. G. CU MMINGS: I gu ess that's a matter of judgment, but I can think of at least three or four instances in communities of single ethnic background, where this could be a considerable difficulty when the children come to school. I hope it doesn't backfire on the department because I think the possibility lies for that to happen. The question of the Small Schools Grants, are they going to continue to be an ongoing part of the department's funding? I see they're here, obviously for this year, is that a direction the department is satisfied that it would like to continue to go on? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, I think it's safe to assume that this is likely to continue for some time. I want to say, at this point, that the Small School Grants have been extremely well received. They, I think, fill a very real need in many of our small communi ties with supporting small schools. I think it's certainly enhanced the likelihood that small schools will remain and that many community small schools will be able to provide a better level of education. I certainly believe that it's been well received. I don't know if the member is suggesting otherwise, but I think it's been well received. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: One last comment, Mr. Chairman. I admit, as being a trustee, that I was a little startled when this program came into place, but I would agree that it provides an opportunity for small schools to obtain aides - that's a person - and the equipment that sometimes might not otherwise be able to be afforded within individual schools. As long as there aren't too many decisions that are made to add to the program, like the ones that I've been talking about in the last few moments, because I think that could very seriously upset what started off to be a reasonably well-conceived program. HON. J.

STORIE: Just on a point of clarification. recognize the point that the member was raising with respect to Small School Grants. He mentioned earlier, the ESL grants are not part of those; they're part of an ongoing program separate from that. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I feel that they're getting linked together in a rather inseparable way, although they're cert ainly ob viously sepa rate in the eyes of the department. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I don't think that member's concern is warranted. The ESL Support Program is, by and large, a Winnipeg phenomena.

There are other ESL Su pport Program grants being offered throughout the province, but the vast majority does still relate to the immigrant population which tends to focus and centre in Winnipeg. There are ESL Support Program grants going to those schools with perhaps Native populations, etc., but the vast majority fall into the parameters within the perimeter. MR. CHAIRMAN: To mention the time, it's 10 p.m., does the committee wish to continue? MR. G. CUMMINGS: Continue, Mr. Chairman, if we can. MR. CHAIRMAN: If you're physically able, we will continue. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: I'd like to put one comment on the record. The Mi nister has been very cooperative in moving around on these topics and I appreciate that. HON. J. STORIE: You're more than welcome. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to get into the whole area of Small Schools and Regional Services. Would the Min ister confirm that there is, in fact, a decrease in staff years in this particular area for the 1986-87 budget? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, there is a decrease of one staff person. That represents a transfer to Appropriation 4.(

j) Inner-City Education Initiative. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Well, I'm delighted to see the Inner City get an additional staff year, however I am somewhat dismayed at the fact that the budget for Regional Services has gone down dramatically, from 1983-84 where the actual was some $727,000, down to this year, where it will be some $578,000.00. Can the Mini ster explain why such a drastic cut, when everything else in the costs of education seem to be increasing? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, there has been a reduction, the member is quite right, there have been a couple of in ternal trans fers subseque nt to the Estimates preparation. One was a transfer into Regional Services from Curriculum Branch; the second was an additional responsibility flowing to the department which is cost-shared by the Secretary of State 75-25. So there are some additional dollars for programming, but the member is right that there has been a reduction and it's reflected in the 1985-86 to 1986-87.

Again, the reductions have, I suppose, like all reductions, reflect the highest elimination of the lowest priority and that's a phenomena that's not unusual. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: The small school's concept, particularly as it relates to the elementary grades, is one which I have a great deal of empathy for. Perhaps the greatest concern about this budge t is, not so much the staff year drop, but the Other 2214

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 Expenditures drop. Because I would assume that the money used in Other Expenditu res is, for the most part, used to travel consultants to small schools to provide aid and assistance to teachers who were dealing with multi-level classes and small classes. HON. J. STORIE: I want to be clear with the Member for River Heights that the dollars spent on the Small School Program have not decreased. The dollars spent on the Small School Program have actually increased from 1985-86, so the actual money going to the small schools has increased.

What is done is some of the in-department expenditur es have been curtailed and there have been some, as I've said, transfer of staff. MRS. S. CAR ST AIRS: I did assume that the grants were not, in fact, part of this particular grouping, but that does not solve my problem which is that you seem to have cut back on consultant services to small schools. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, while there has been a reduction in the di rect consulting services' dollars that we are paying, in fact, what we've been able to do in part has been pay secondment dollars, in effect.

So what we pay is a lower rate than what we would normally be able to achieve through the hiring directly of consultants by the department. So we've been able to achieve a little more with a little less. An interesting phenonenon you say. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: Incredible, I might say. I put the Mini ster on notice right now that one of my grave concerns with regard to our education is what we do with consultants in the Province of Manitoba, and I can honestly say that, in my years of teaching throughout Canada, I've never had a consultant in my classroom - ever. I think that is not untypical.

I'd like to believe ... HON. J. STORIE: it's a reflection of your good teaching ability. MRS. S. CAR ST AIRS: Well, one would love to think that, however, I know that I could have used consultant services and I didn't have them. I am particularly concerned, therefore, in the small schools where you have teachers who do not have contact with universities for the most part; they don't have contact with their own local consultants, because many of these school boards do not have consultants.

I am therefore dismayed that there would be less in the way of direct help from the Department of Education to these particular schools. HON. J. STORIE: I would want to make clear that the Regional Services Branch does not deliver all services to small schools, that in fact the curriculum consultants, the child care and deve lopment - I can't get used to be CDSS, I could handle that, but CCD isn't as easy.

The services through CCD are in fact del ivered in that way and so consulting services, while there has been a reduction in this area, we are essentially obtaining the services in a different way which makes it less expensive. But there are many other services that are provided. 2215 I think, just to comment on the general question that you raise about the visibility of consultants, that perhaps is a concern amongst teachers, that divisions seem to hire consultants, and the depar tment provides consultants, but you never really see them.

That is partly because, in most instances, their jobs are not as directly related to the in-class teaching as to contributing to the materials and to the development of materials that come into use in the classroom. But I certainly believe that the reductions that have taken place in Regional Services aren't going to have the impact on the other areas that the Member for River Heights is referring to. MRS. S.

CARST AIRS: I will get into it later in the whole area of Curriculum Development, but I would like to make the point now, because I think it's particularly im portant for the small sch ool, that un less that curriculum consultant is out there in that classroom on a fairly regular basis and has contact with the specific needs of that small school in the multi-level, multi-grade classroom, that it's going to be very tough to produce curriculum materials in a vacuum. HON. J. STORIE: To this point, Mr.

Chairperson, there has not been a great deal of curriculum work done specifically for small schools, although there are consultants now wo rking on adapting curricu lum material and that school divisions have done, and actually some interesting adaptations. Some small schools are offering an array of courses that would astound people when you learn that the scope of the school is 50 to 80 students and they have done that on their own, through local initiative and the initiative of teachers. lt simply isn't possible for the department, given the larger concerns, to be everyw here and do every thing.

But the support that we are providing through consultants and through the various branches, I think the small school grants, etc., have improved the situation. There is a lot more hope out there in some of the small schools than there was four or five years ago. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to say to the Mi nister that the small schools grants that are being provided are, in fact, a positive aspect for many, especially rural small schools, and it's a concept which I would hope that the Minis ter will continue.

But there is one other area that is of concern in terms of small schools. Might I also say the allowing of small schools to use the small schools grant flexibly has become a positive element there. The concern that we have in some of the small schools is that, when you have to close a small school because of inadequate numbers, or because in some instances perhaps a segment of the population may pull out - the Mi nister may know of the Native situation. We are still required to give two-years notice to that school before we can close it and that has become a problem.

I'm wondering whether the Min ister will be taking a look at this two-year closure aspect and making it a little more flexible to allow school divisions to perhaps close a school where it isn't feasibly practical to run in less than two years.

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: The question of the small schools closure or the school closure guidelines have been raised on a number of occasions, and they have been reviewed. I, in my meetings with MAST and in meetings with school divisions directly, have not heard that the guidelines are a specific concern. There can be ex emptions. There are particular circumstances which occur from time to time that preclude a school division doing that kind of planning.

I think the principle behind the guideline - and I think it is a sound one - is that. because of the importance to a community of the school, it behooves the school division to do the kind of planning that would allow for an adjustment period for an acceptance of the inevitable, for the arrangement of alternative plans, all of those things. I think the small schools closure guidelines have worked to the advantage of many divisions. it's given them something to work with as they plan for the future. Two years, in educational terms, is not a long time.

In planning terms, when you're talking about something as important as a school, it isn't a long time. So I don't think they're unrealistic. I recognize that it has put an additional onus on the school division to deal with it in an open way, making the decision I guess somewhat more painful in that it's extended, that there has to be that process.

But I think it's a fair requirement of school divisions, and certainly the feedback we've received from the other side, who have had a chance to question and learn about the rationale for those closures, has actually led to a lessening of tensions and perhaps made it easier, in some respects, to make the decision. MR. L.

DERKA CH: I don't want to get into a long debate about this, because basically what the Mi nister says is correct in terms of the principle of the guidelines, except that there are situations - and I think that has to be recognized - throughout the province where it becomes almost impractical to run a high school, for example, with 14 students. At that point, I think the inevitable has to take place. This again is where the bound ary changes come in, because I've gone through several school closures in the time that I sat as a school board member.

I've gone through school closures before the guidelines were in place and after the guidelines were in place. Of course, it takes the onus off school boards to some extent when you have guidelines as they were set up by the province. But there are the exceptions that, I think, have to be recognized. The problems that occur are that you have to have complete consensus by the parents before you can close a school, even if the num bers are as low as 14 to 20 students.

I think that there has to be some flexibility built into the guidelines where, when a school becomes impractical, the school board and the parents have some alternatives such as looking at changing the bound aries of the school division where students can go to a high school perhaps which is actually closer, but may in fact be in a different school division. The problem, of course, becomes when school boards have to lose tax revenue dollars from land assessment and all those kinds of things.

I don't think there's any easy solution, but I certainly would hope that the Mi nister and his department would take a positive look at perhaps allowing the guid elines to be more flexible in special, extenuating circumstances. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the remarks I think of the Member for Roblin-Russell are instructive, and I don't disagree with some of what he is saying. I think he referenced schools where there are 14 or 20 students or whatever. In a high school situation, that is simply untenable. I have a lot of faith in school boards.

I have a lot of faith in their ability to come to rational, reasonable, financially responsible decisions. What this does, I think, is allow school boards to present those reasons, saying, we're going to close the school and here are the reasons and people will understand it. There's always a tendency in politics, whether it's school board or otherwise, to make the decision in a hurry and hope that it will get behind you. As the member knows as a school board chairman, that seldom works. Parents want to know why the decision has been made, and it's an emotional issue.

So what the guidelines do is, in effect, give school boards a process in which those things can happen. I don't think there's very often a situation where there are 14 or 20 students in a high school, when the board hasn't been aware for a considerable period of time that there was de clining enrolment. That decision was inevitably going to have to be made. lt doesn't seem to me that two years is much of an onus or is too onerous on school boards in terms of planning and preparing the community for the upcoming change.

I'm told that in fact there have been instances in the province where schools have been closed without the two-year - was it in your area? - but by consent. Basically, everybody said, yes, I'm sorry, it makes sense. I think that, in reference to the ability of school boards to provide clearer rationale for what they're doing, that in most cases you're going to be able to do it with the understanding that it's inevitable and it makes sense educationally, and all the rest of it. MR. L. DERKACH: Just to refresh my memory, what is the figure in terms of students for a school to qualify as a small school? HON. J.

STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, a small elementary school is considered less than 15. I would like to correct that statement. The formula that's used to define a small elementary school is number of students enrolled divided by the number of grades taught. If that number is less than 15, then it is a small elementary school. High school, it's fewer than 200 students from Grades 9 to 12 . I don't know why they couldn't have a fancy formula, but they don't. MR. L. DERKA CH: In the rural areas, we run into a bit of a problem with the definition of a small high school, because ... HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, on a point of order. Would the Member for Roblin-Russell care to talk to himself for a few minutes while I go to the washroom? MR. CHAIRMAN: Le t's take a five-m inute recess. lt is now 10 :20 p.m.; we'll return at 10:25 p.m. The Member 2216

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 for Roblin-Rus sell can put his questions and line of questioning in order, a five-m inute recess. Take a break, back at 10:25 p.m. HON. J. STORIE: To withdraw that, there was no intention to be cruel or mischievous in those remarks - (Interjection) - okay, maybe a little. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell is entitled to a small shot, thrust and parry. The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

With respect to high schools in rural Manitoba, I think there's a bit of a problem in that 200 student figure because, as I'm sure the Mi nister is aware, rural Manitoba is becoming depopulated. I'm wondering whether there is any consideration to have that figure even change to include schools that have more than 200 students? HON. J. STORIE: That's something that could be considered. I would just point out that, right now, the grants are in the neighbourhood of 1.7 million. That money is distributed now between the 275 small schools in the province, both high school and elementary. Some E.D. 1 are high schools.

To the extent that you change the criteria, you probably would reduce the effect iveness or the scope of the projects that could be undertaken. So there is a down side to upping the limit. Certainly, I recognize that there are many schools that are beyond the criteria by X-number that also would like to be taking

part in it. MR. L. DER KACH: The reason I make that point, Mr. Min ister, is that, if you compare the programs that are offered in urban schools in Manitoba . . . HON. J. STORIE: I'm sorry, I just found out something that was disturbing me, and I corrected it. MR. L. DERKACH: As I said before, the reason I make this point is that I'm sure the Mi nister is aware that, in the rural high schools in Manitoba, students are not able to take the kinds of options and the types of programs that are offered in the more populated urban schools.

There is no way right now, under the present funding formula, where programs can be enhanced because of the numbers. Perhaps this is one way in which high schools in rural Manitoba could perhaps even improve the quality of education that is being offered in their schools, by increasing that number from 200 students to includ e more schools in that small schools category. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I'm going to circulate a couple of documents that have been prepared by the department.

One is called "Small High School Study," and the other one's a "Small High School Study - Descriptive Data," which talks about small high schools in the province, very instructive. I mention this in response to the member's comme nts which , I acknowledge , he's quite right. There is that potential for providing extra options beyond what is available by additional grants to the high schools through the Small Schools Program. I was quite taken by the kinds of options that are being developed in rural small high schools. In fact, the number of different options that are being prepared here are quite surprising.

I wanted to reference one, in particular, and unfortunately right now I can't find it. it's in the course options, Small High School Stud y. I'm sorry that I didn't have it marked earlier. However, I wanted just to relate some of the options that are being offered. In one of these, there is a full set of options that has been prepared by the local school in an area that's called agricultural vocation, Page 19.

As an example, in Fisher Branch Collegiate, we have a series of different courses which comprise a vocational agricultu ral program, and we have: Agricultur e, Theory and Practice, 105; Introductory Farm Skills, 105; Farm Machinery Op eration and Care, 205, recognizing that there are some interesting options that are being provided at a small school. So the potential for small schools to do innovative, appropriate kinds of things is there, obviously assisted by the Small Schools Grants Program. lt just gives you an interesting overview of what's going on in the area.

I should say and this is, I suppose, an important part of the Estimates process, is recognition to staff in the department from the Curriculum Branch and Regional Services and other parts of the department, where staff have worked very hard with small schools, to make these kinds of things possible and to assist local initiative, if you will. The fact is that we are getting calls from all over North America right now, inquiring about our small schools initiatives and the Small Schools Grants Program, because it is quite innovative and has been well received. MR. L.

DERKACH: I'll just conclude my questions and remarks in this area by indicating that I personally support the small schools concept, the support for small schools. But I know that small high schools especially are finding it more and more difficult, perhaps those that don 't fall necessa rily into that small schools category are finding it more and more difficult to offer comparable options as schools that are in the urban centre, in the City of Winnipeg.

I'm hopeful that, within the time that you are responsible for this department, you will pay some attention to that area and perhaps, in some way, see to it that these schools in fact do not lose ground in the courses that they are able to offer, and perhaps even offer courses that are perhaps even more practical for students as they are about to enter the work force and higher education. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I hope likewise, and I appreciate very much the member's comments.

I, too, was fortunate enough to receive my high school education in a small school, certainly by this definition a very small high school. The point the member raises about the ability of small high schools to offer the same range of options is a legitimate one. I think what I would like to say as well is, do not confuse the issue of smallness and options with quality of education necessarily. What we will be working to do is making sure that, where small schools are viable and the community wishes to maintain them, the quality apart from the options is maintained as well. 2217

Thursday, 24 Ju ly, 1986 When I look at the kinds of expenditur es through this program, if I could just break them down for the member, it's rather instructive that some of it of course has gone to providing additional options, but also money has gone for - and I suppose this relates to the abili ty to pr ovide options - microcomputers and accessories, to audiovisual equipment, to li braries, to phys-ed equipment and again human resources to help deliver quality education. So it's being used in a variety of ways, not just to increase the options, which is desirable.

But I believe that, even to the extent that options aren't available, there is still the possibility of good quality education being delivered in small schools. I had a very inte resting conversation with your colleague, the Member for Ste. Rose, the other evening about other benefits that aren't always recognized in small school education. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have just a couple of questions on small schools. Dr. Nicholls had recommended, evidently, a more comprehensive study of small schools. I'm wondering if one is being undertaken. HON. J.

STORIE: it's interesting that the Member for Kirkfield Park should raise that issue, because I have raised that issue myself just recently with the department. I hope your colleagues will share some of that information on what is going on in small schools - and have asked for specifically, is the question of how small schools do in terms of the achievement of their students beyond the secondary system, because I think that's an important aspect.

Once we und erstand how well relatively small school students do then we can speak more directly to the quality of the education, the appropriateness of the education they're receivi ng. So yes, we are going to be reviewing that issue and trying to come to grips more definitively with the benefits of or a lack thereof of small school education . MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'll ask the question on behalf of St. James-As sinib oia School Board.

They had requested the study include an evaluation of additional staff costs and high maintenance costs of und erutil ized buildings and if those two issues would be included in the stu dy. HON. J. STORIE: That hadn't been raised, I hadn't raised that issue but certainly there are a number of questions, I think, that will have to be raised or need to be raised with respect to small schools.

I, at fir st, wanted to come to some better und erstanding myself of where we were at in terms of what we were providing and, to some extent it's an intuitive feeling, and to some extent it's a result of my own experience in the school system, a small school system that were more successful than we believe. I want to have that confirmed in some objective way by reviewing the results, the post-secondary results, in particular, of our small high school graduates. So once I see whether my assumptions are right, then obviously we want to explore further what benefits there may be for additional resources. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, Mr. Chairman, to the Min ister. As he well would understand that you still have a building to maintain in a small school. We certainly in St. James have tried to consolidate as many as possible, but even at that you end up with some schools that we still had the same high costs of maintaining the building and with a much smaller complement of students. So that turns into quite a cost factor for a school when you're trying to keep your costs down. HON. J.

STORIE: Just while I'm waxing nostalgic about my own experience, I want to ind icate the small school in the rural community - and perhaps my rural colleague will confirm this - I recognize there's a community spirit in urban Manitoba as well, but the small school in rural communities is and northern communities are very much mo re the focus and the emotions and the involvement, in some respects, is qualitatively different I guess.

That's a feeling, anyway, I don't know whether the Member for Roblin-Ru ssell would confirm that, but it's a vital issue to so many small communities that I think it has to be a priority to resolve the outstanding problems if we can that they face. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Just one last comment on that. I did live in a small area too for a number of years but I don't think the feeling is any less in the community that I live in, which is very much like a small community within a larger one in relation to schools.

The schools are just a vital part of our area and as the Mi nister knows, one of the reasons that actually the policy on small schools on the closure came out was probably because of Columbus School that closed in our area, and the amount of consternation and heartache that went on in our community, even though St. James at that time did have a policy of school closure that wasn't too different from what was brought in. But the parents, certainly I think in any community, it doe sn't matter whether it's rural or city, have a very strong feeling to a neighborhood school whether it be high school or elementary. MR.

C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that we revert back to

Section 8.(bX2). MR. CHAIRMAN: Like . . . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, there are, I believe, other services relating to it. We just wish to discuss that small school aspect. We'll take it though that the small school question has been passed and we won't come back to it. I can appreciate staff have to come for that purpose. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Where would you like to proceed? MR. C. BIRT: Then let's revert back to Page 56, which would be 8.(bX2), which would be School Divisions and Capital. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ok ay. 8.( b)(2) - the Member for Roblin-Russell. 2218

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 MR. L. DERKA CH: I would like to come back to the Accelerated Program area. The question here is: is this accelerated program concept one that is going to continue in the following years as well or is this done for this one specific year? Will the Accelerated Program concept be one that is going to be continued in the following years? HON. J. STORIE: I've answered that question earlier this afternoon. The Accelerated Capital Program has been in effect for two years.

The original decision to accelerate was actually made in the Estimates process in'84, final decision in'85; another decision to continue it was made after the election when the curr ent Estimates were being reviewed, and I cannot comment on whether it will be necessary, as I've ind icated that we have put in substantial, $75-80 million, over the last couple of years, and that in fact we should be reaching a point where much of the backlog, the urgent and necessary backlog, of r