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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 39th Parliament official rePort of Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari Soff, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Tuesday, May 10, 2011 Morning Sitting Volume 21, Number 5

Pro Vince of britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l.

Point, obc Third Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker of the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil .............................................................................................................. h on. c hristy c lark Deputy Premier and Minister of finance ............................................................................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation ...........................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of a dvanced e ducation .................................................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Minister of a griculture ........................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Don Mcr ae a ttorney General ........................................................................................................................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc Minister of c hildren and f amily Development ................................................................................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of e ducation .........................................................................................................................................................h on.

George a bbott Minister of energy and Mines and Minister r esponsible for h ousing.........................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of environment ....................................................................................................................................................h on. Dr. t erry l ake Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations......................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson Minister of h ealth .................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation ................................................................................................................................... h on. Pat bell Minister of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government .............................................................................. h on.

Stephanie c adieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond Minister of Social Development and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism ............................................................ h on. h arry bloy Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ................................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ......................................................................................................................................................a drian Dix Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker ..................................................................................................................................................................Dawn black Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole ...................................................................................................................................Douglas h orne c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ............................................................................................................... craig h.

James (on leave) c lerk a ssistant and a cting c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................. k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary l enz

alP habetical liS t of MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, bill (l) .............................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, iain (l) .............................................................. Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h on. h arry (l) ............................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-fleetwood c adieux, h on. Stephanie (l) ................................................Surrey-Panorama c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c handra h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ................................Vancouver–West end c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, Murray (l) ..............................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ........................................... f ort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) ..............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on. Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington f alcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale f arnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake f oster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee f raser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, c olin (l) ............................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, k ash (l) ................................................................ Vancouver-fraserview h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de f uca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, kevin (l) ............................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, h on. Dr. t erry (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................f raser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (l) ......................................... Vancouver-fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on. Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–f alse creek Mcr ae, h on.

Don (l) ................................................................... c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry, Qc (l) ....................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (ind.) .....................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, ben (l) ..................................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, Dr. Moira (l) ......................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon.

Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant ...............................................................................Vancouver–Point Grey liS t of MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .......................................................................r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ......................................................h on.

Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott f raser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ...................................................................h on. h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope .......................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley...........................................................................h on. Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis f ort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman f raser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de f uca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on.

Dr. t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ...................................................... k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast ....................................................................................bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike f arnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam ...................................................................... iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands .....................................................

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine ........................................................................................Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Surrey-fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................ h on.

Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ........................................................................... Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-fairview ................................................ Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–f alse creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-fraserview ........................................................................k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara .................................................................Dr.

Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ..........................................Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ...............................................................................Vacant Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................................... c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ...............................................Spencer c handra h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric f oster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna .............................................................................ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 48; n ew Democratic 34; independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS t uesday, May 10, 2011 Morning Sitting Page Orders of the Day c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 6815 e stimates: Ministry of Social Development h on. h. b loy S. Simpson n. Simon s Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 6823 e stimates: Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General h on. S. bond k. c orrigan

6815 tueSD a Y , MaY 10, 2011 The h ouse met at 10:03 a.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Prayers. Orders of the Day Hon. R. Coleman: Good morning, Mr. Speaker, and welcome to all members this morning. t oday in this h ouse we will be debating the estimates of the Ministry of Social Development, and in c ommittee a we will be debating the estimates of the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General. [1005] Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of Social De Velo PMent The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section b); D. black in the chair.

The committee met at 10:06 a.m. on Vote 40: ministry operations, $2,339,088,000. Hon. H. Bloy: i'd like to make an opening statement, and i'd like to begin by thanking the ministry staff that are joining me here today: my deputy minister, Mark Sieben, and a ssistant Deputy Minister Wes boyd, Molly h arrington and Debi u pton. The Ministry of Social Development has over 2,000 employees who work with families in b.c. to help them achieve their social and economic potential.

They are dedicated and compassionate professionals who strive every day to provide the best service possible, and i com- mend them for the hard work that they do every day. My ministry is about helping families in their greatest time of need, when they have no one else there to help them. They include providing income assistance and employment programs. My ministry also supports b.c.'s most vulnerable, those who are disabled and people who have many bar - riers to taking care of themselves.

This is done through c ommunity l iving b.c., and it helps more than 13,000 adults with developmental disabilities achieve their goals and live the life that they want to live. They also provide support for the homeless. The homelessness intervention project was launched in 2009 and has housed over 3,900 homeless people across b.c . communities: Victoria, Vancouver, Surrey, k elowna and Prince George. a s the Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism, i'm looking forward to meeting and working with the di - verse cultures that make b.c. the wonderful province that it is.

The 2011-2012 operating budget for the Ministry of Social Development is $2.3 billion. The total budget for income assistance for 2011-12 is $1.5 billion. in the budget for 2011-12 more than $350 million will be invested through my ministry in a full range of employ - ment programs to help build better lives for themselves and their families.

Staffing is also working on new employment programs which were developed after considerable consultation with stakeholders across the province over the past three years and reflect the feedback we've received regarding the need for better services for those trying to find a job. Part of this work includes creating new employment cen- tres in a pril 2012 which will make it easier for people to find work and provide stability for their families.

My ministry is also investing resources through c ommunity l iving b.c. to help those with develop - mental disabilities. c ommunity l iving b.c.'s 2011-12 operating budget is $701 million.

The ministry is also replacing outdated and inflexible information systems used to deliver income assistance and employment programs. integrated case manage - ment is a $182 million capital project being implemented over six years. e xpenditures in the 2011-12 budget are estimated at $31.7 million. [1010] The 2011-12 budget for the Ministry of Social Development focuses on helping british c olumbians build a bright future. i'm looking forward to working alongside the great staff within this ministry as well as the people in b.c. in developing strong families and strong communities. S.

Simpson: it's a pleasure to be able to come and do estimates today with the new minister and get an oppor- tunity to discuss social development with the minister. i do want to thank his staff for the briefing i got yester - day afternoon. That was helpful in preparing since we kind of are a little bit rushed getting into these estimates. They've come a little quicker than we had originally an - ticipated, but i'm sure we'll be fine.

Just so the minister knows my thinking on how we're going to go through today and tomorrow: some general overview to start in regard to the ministry; inte - grated case management; then on to income assistance, poverty-related issues; persons with disability issues — PWD — to follow that. We'll see how our timing is. We'll need to fit in em - ployment programs, then probably multiculturalism or employment programs. We may need to finish one of those off early tomorrow, and then the remainder of tomorrow, the last few hours, will be community living issues.

british c olumbia Debates6816 t uesday, May 10, 2011 That's roughly what we're looking at as timing and pretty much the same, i think, as i spoke to the deputy about yesterday. My first question is in general overview. i see that the budget is at $2.3 billion. c ould the minister tell us: how many fte s does the ministry have today? Hon. H. Bloy: o kay, i just want to let the member know that the government isn't reporting full fte s any longer. There is no plan to return to detailed fte re - porting within the budget document, but i can let the member across the way know how many employees that we have.

This year we have 2,079 employees in the ministry. S. Simpson: h ow many of those employees are part- time? [1015] Hon. H. Bloy: The vast majorities within this min - istry are full-time. There are a lot of flexible work hours by individuals. We have very few part-time employees. a lot of it is by employee choice, mothers returning to work. S. Simpson: c an the minister just tell me…? Does the minister not have a number on how many part-time employees there are? f ull-time — i'm not worried about flexible hours.

People make up a workweek however they make it up, but people work 35-plus hours a week or people work less than that. i'm trying to determine of the 2,079 how many work pretty much full-time and how many don't. Hon. H. Bloy: We do not have a record of the number of part-time employees for the member, but we will en - deavour to get the information. S. Simpson: i am a bit concerned that the ministry isn't able to determine relatively easily how many em - ployees it has of a full-time nature and of a part-time nature. So we'll move to maybe a little more specific question around fte s.

When i look on page 158 of the Estimates, i'm looking at the core business areas. in the income assistance area, one of the areas, i'm assuming, where the largest number of employees are…. They work around income assist - ance — that and community living, i would expect. c ould the minister tell me how many people, employ- ees, work in income assistance? a nd i'm particularly interested in how many employees work around the delivery of income assistance generally to people in british c olumbia. Hon. H. Bloy: The number of people working on in - come assistance is 1,526. S.

Simpson: i might come back to some of these ques- tions, but i'm going to move a little bit because i know we're going to be tight for time today. The minister spoke about it a little bit earlier. one of the ways that i know the government is looking to im - prove its efficiencies and things is the introduction of the integrated case management system and the bring - ing in of a new system to be able to track and be able to manage people in the system. Maybe we'll ask a few questions and do a little bit related to the integrated case management.

That might help me to deal with some of these other matters. [1020] The minister, i believe, said at the start that the inte - grated case management is projected to be a total cost of $182 million over the six-year period. i believe that has increased since the original projection of costs. c ould the minister tell us: when the project was first introduced, what was the anticipated cost that has now presumably grown to $182 million? [1025] Hon. H.

Bloy: i just want to assure the member across the way that the price hasn't risen — the original estimate for the project plan for $107 million. but the firm t reasury board allocation to purchase software and build the system is $182 million. S. Simpson: Well, maybe what the minister could pro- vide…. i'm not going to ask him to explain this in detail right now. We have an original cost estimate of $107 mil- lion. We now have a cost of $182 million. Somewhere in here there's $75 million of differences. That's a real dif - ference.

That's almost — well, it's a 75 percent increase — a doubling of the cost, getting pretty close. it's not done yet, so it may double before we're done. The only way it makes sense for this not to be a dra - matic overspending in this area is if there were a whole bunch of new items that were added to the costs that had not been anticipated at the beginning. i can't im - agine what those would be. Y ou need technology. Y ou need software. Y ou need personnel. Y ou need the work that goes behind all of that. That would be true in either case.

Somewhere in here we have a $75 million cost over - run on what the original cost was. c ould the minister explain what that $75 million is or provide it in writ - ing later? Hon. H. Bloy: first, more functionality will be deliv - ered by the project — more functional services for the two ministries that want to use it — and over time, it will be more adaptable. a more conservative, phased approach has been adopted, increasing the length of the project and in - creasing testing and training costs associated with each

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6817 phase, to make sure that we're getting what we wanted for what we're paying. The outcomes are there, which al- lows us throughout the project to take a step back and have the ability to adapt it. The project contingency was increased to make sure that we would cover the costs go- ing forward and for the system integrator costs. The bids actually came in higher than the original es - timates. a pproximately $38 million has been spent to the end of December 2009.

The overall budget for the project is $181.7 million, with $86.8 million of that, sys - tem integrating services. S. Simpson: Maybe i wasn't entirely clear. c ould the minister tell me what the $75 million is being spent on that wasn't anticipated in the original bid of $107 million? [1030] Hon. H. Bloy: The additional cost was for more func- tionality that will be delivered by the project. a more conservative, phased approach has been adopted, in - creasing the length of the project and increasing testing and training costs associated with each phase while at the same time reducing the overall risk.

The project con- tingency was also increased. S. Simpson: Well, maybe we'll try this a different way. c ould the minister tell me what "more functionality" means? Hon. H. Bloy: We have a better ability to connect rules to benefit the eligibility determination, resulting in better support for more consistent decisionmaking. We have three additional rounds of business process re-engineering, a more comprehensive approach to business information and three additional staff deploy - ments of user training.

Staff will be better enabled to effectively use the tool as it's fully intended to be used. t ogether these will create a better overall solution com - ing out of the ic M project, which will meet current and future needs for the ministry. S. Simpson: Then maybe what the minister could tell me is: if that's what's going to happen that costs an ex - tra $75 million — or a portion of the $75 million; i'm sure there are other things, and we might get back to this — what was going to occur before if it wasn't exactly those things that were going to make the system more efficient?

That was the purpose, as i'm told, for doing in- tegrated case management in the first place. it was to do those things. i would assume that all of that was part of the $107 million. What was the function going to be for $107 million that has become so much better for $182 million, which wasn't just bad projections on costs or cost overruns that got out of control? [1035] Hon. H. Bloy: The $107 million was only an esti - mate based on government's original planning. When we went to the market through the rfP process, higher real costs came out.

We also chose a more conservative approach at that time to phase in over a longer period of time and to increase the contingency to reduce the risk in doing this project. C. Trevena: i beg permission to make an introduc - tion. The Chair: Please proceed. Introductions by Members C.

Trevena: i have the honour today of noting and seeing that there is a very strong political animal up in the gallery. r oger k ishi is from c ourtenay and is very involved both politically and…. i believe he's here to - day for the aboriginal friendship centres. i hope the h ouse will make r oger very welcome. h e's here to ob - serve the proceedings. Debate Continued S.

Simpson: The minister suggested in his answer, i believe, that there was a $107 million budget for this, but it wasn't a real number because they hadn't gone to the marketplace to find out what it would cost. is the minister saying that when the contracts were first let, the number then increased by $75 million — when the contract was first let? i believe Deloitte has the contract to do this; i believe it's Deloitte. c ould he con- firm that? or has it gone up since the contract was let?

Second, the minister talked about contingency. h ow much of that $182 million is contingency, and how much has that gone up since the original projection of $107 million? [1040] Hon. H. Bloy: i want to let the member across the way know that the approved budget was at $182 million for the contract. That was the full amount of the contract, and it didn't rise after the contract was let out. There are five phases of contingency, and each phase has a built-in contingency. in phase 1 it's 10 percent. in phase 2, or years 2 to 5, it's 20 percent. in phase 1 we didn't need to use the contingency. S.

Simpson: Just one more question on this, and then we'll move to some other things. Maybe one more question. c ould the minister explain this to me? in the first year of this, when it was coming in, there was a number put in the budget presumably for integrated case manage - ment. c an the minister tell me the number that was put

british c olumbia Debates6818 t uesday, May 10, 2011 in the budget? Was it $107 million, or was it $182 mil - lion? Was it $107 million, and subsequent to the budget, it was then increased to $182 million? or was there just speculation about $107 million, and the number ac - tually put in the budget was $182 million? i'm trying to determine which one of those numbers was actually in the budget when this started — the first number, the lower number or the higher number. [1045] Hon. H. Bloy: i just want to let you know that the only approved budget to go ahead was $182 million. S.

Simpson: There's a provincial budget, so maybe we'll go back and try again. i don't have the number in front of me. Maybe the minister can help me with this. in what budget year was this budget included in the budget estimates? What was the number included in the budget estimates? h ow much was it? Was it $182 mil - lion in the budget estimates in the first year when this was anticipated, or was it the larger number? Hon. H.

Bloy: i just want to confirm that the $182 mil- lion budget is broken down into five phases. in 2010-11 we spent $28.2 million, and in the current year of which budget estimates are for, we spent $31.7 million. [1050] S. Simpson: Well, i'm assuming the minister doesn't want to answer the question, so we'll move on. i will go back and get those numbers myself, since the minister doesn't appear to want to answer the question. The icM system.

There have been some issues around the responsiveness of the system. i know the ministry was working on that, in terms of it being a little bit slow in its responsiveness. c ould the minister tell us whether those issues around the technical side of the responsive- ness of the system have been corrected? Hon. H. Bloy: The icM phase 1 was implemented on n ovember 29, 2010, on time, slightly under budget and within scope. implementation impacted approximately 1,500 Social Development staff.

During the first few months of icM implementation, staff experienced some challenges with the new system — including learning the new look and feel, adjustment of the number of steps needed to process transactions — and experienced slow systems performance. a s a result, during the first two months delays in service were ex - perienced by employment and income assistance clients due to staff learning the new system.

The system integrator, Deloitte, worked around the clock to monitor and address the icM system per - formance issues, including on-site visits to identify and correct problems. a dditional enhancements were made to systems to improve business processes and reduce the number of steps that staff needed to take to complete a transaction. a dditional icM refresher training is under - way and will be completed by the end of May. t ransforming a vital business system is a huge undertaking, and while undesirable glitches are not un - common in projects of this scope, we are confident that we are now back on track.

The system is stable, and staff are so much more comfortable in using icM. So in response to the member's question, the initial concerns were experienced by staff. S. Simpson: Just so i'm clear — and i appreciate the answer: have those issues now been addressed and cor - rected? a re those issues of slow responsiveness in terms of clients and that, which the minister acknowledged were there in the first phases of the system — whether it be technology, just learning, whatever the reasons are for that…? h ave those now all been corrected, or is that correction in progress now? [1055] Hon. H.

Bloy: Y es, all the technical glitches have been corrected, but we do continue to train staff on an on - going basis. S. Simpson: in regard to the other issue related to icM that we know has been out there. o bviously, there are privacy-related issues in ensuring privacy protection is appropriate. c ould the minister tell us what the role of the Privacy c ommissioner has been in relation to privacy issues? h as the Privacy c ommissioner signed off entirely on the system? Hon. H. Bloy: The Privacy c ommissioner has been involved at multiple stages, with her and her staff.

We did a privacy impact assessment. i just want to let the member know that she does not sign off, and she saw no reason not to implement the project. [l. r eid in the chair.] first, the Privacy c ommissioner reviewed the privacy impact assessment prior to implementation, for phase 1. a full privacy impact assessment will be completed for every phase of the integrated case management project, and a full privacy impact assessment for phase 1, which is posted on the ministry website, was completed prior to implementing the project. [1100] S.

Simpson: The minister is saying the Privacy c om- missioner has raised no concerns about the system and about how the security of people's privacy will be pro - tected by the system. is that what the minister is telling us?

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6819 Hon. H. Bloy: i just wanted to say that the Privacy c ommissioner had no concerns. She is comfortable with the approach that we are taking as a government, and we continue to work with her and her staff very closely through each stage to ensure privacy protection for individuals. S. Simpson: c ould the minister tell us: if that's the work that's being done with the Privacy c ommissioner…? We had an opportunity to speak a little bit yesterday. i spoke a bit to some of his staff yesterday. c ould the minister tell us: what's the role…?

There's a whole array of agencies or organizations, service providers, who are being pulled in now or who will, over the next period of time, be pulled in to this program and become part of it. i believe that as his staff said yesterday, the next big phase is the employment programs that will come in next a pril. c ould the minister tell us how the groups are being involved, how their input is being solicited for the oper- ation of the system and how it will work — all aspects of it? h ow are they being involved, and what is the process for their input, and how are people or organizations be - ing chosen to be part of that process? [1105] Hon.

H. Bloy: We are working with service provid - ers as part of this overall project. They are part of our working group to help design the system, and we asked for volunteers to come forward to help us work with the system. S. Simpson: i guess my question…. Maybe i'll try to be a little clearer with my question.

What are the processes that are in place for groups to have that input? i'm sure it's something. it's more formal than: "Just give me a call if you'd like to talk about it." What are the processes in place to allow groups to be able to help evaluate the system, to have input into how it might affect their ability? i mean, we talked a little bit before; i've talked before. o bviously, there are lots of questions that will get sorted out about technologies, about how systems that are being used by organizations link to the icM system of govern - ment, whether it's through portals or whether it's through a complete transition of the system — lots of those kinds of questions — which, i'm sure, are more than just an in- formal conversation.

What are the formal processes for those groups to be able to be part of this conversation? [1110] Hon. H. Bloy: i want to assure the member across the way that we do have a detailed project plan, and part of that plan specifically includes service provider strategy. We're very specific in detail about what we want to do. c urrently, in the joint application design, they are part of the team. S. Simpson: c ould the minister provide a list of the organizations that have actually been part of the process in a meaningful way — part of the process of icM? Hon. H.

Bloy: i'd be pleased to get the list, and our staff is going to put the list together for you. S. Simpson: i thank the minister for that, and i look forward to the list. i think i'm going to let that lie for the moment and move on a little bit, away from the icM, to talk a bit more about poverty and income assistance and some of those supports, and have a bit of a discussion that's a little more philosophical with the minister.

The minister will know…. i don't think he had his current appointment at the time we had this conversion, but i've had the conversation with his predecessor about how we begin to address the issues of poverty, whether it be for the 38,000-odd kids who are identified as living in poverty in the province, living on income assistance….

There are many more than that living in poverty and in poor households that aren't collecting assistance. but certainly those kids, and other kids and families that are living in poverty…. i know that the minister, in having read his message in the service plan, and i know the comments of Ms. c lark that families are obviously…. The minister has talked about families being a priority, so i'm assuming that part of that priority is to break the cycle of family poverty where it exists in the province. c ould the minister tell the h ouse what the strat - egy he views…?

Particularly for people within his responsibility — collecting assistance. We'll keep it to the people collecting assistance. There's a whole other group of the working poor, but for now let's just keep it to the people collecting assistance and the families and the 38,000-odd kids or whatever that fall into that category. h ow does the minister view the strategies or what's occurring within government and within his ministry? h ow does it get to breaking that cycle of poverty that we're facing?

What specific things in this budget begin to take us down that road where we should be able to see progress in breaking that cycle of poverty? [1115] Hon. H. Bloy: t o answer the member's question, addressing poverty requires a cross-government com - mitment. There are 43,000 fewer children on income assistance now than there were in 2001. Since 2003, b.c. has made significant progress in reducing low-income incidence for all age groups and family types, and the gap between b.c. and other provinces has narrowed. a ccording to the 2008 after-tax low-income cutoff, 11.4 percent of

british c olumbia Debates6820 t uesday, May 10, 2011 the population lived on low income. a lthough it is up slightly — 0.3 percent — from 2007, these are still the lowest rates since 1989. The proportion of b.c. children living in families with low income in 2008 was 10.4 percent, down from 13 percent in 2007 — close to one-half of the rate of 19.2 percent in 2003. This was the lowest rate since 1980. b.c. saw one other remarkable improvement in 2008.

The percentage of children living in female-headed single-parent families with low income declined from 37.4 percent to 18.6 percent, the second-lowest rate in c anada and by far the lowest rate ever reported in british c olumbia. The province supports a focus on strengthening the economy and job growth as the major long-term strategy for reducing low income and poverty.

The government must work with business, communities and families to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to achieve fi - nancial security. t o ensure that the work pays, the minimum wage is being increased in three stages. it is now $8.75 per hour in british c olumbia. on n ovember 1 it will be $9.50, and on May 1, 2012, it'll be $10.25. b.c. will have the highest minimum wage in c anada at that time. in January 2010 the basic personal income tax credit was increased to $11,000 from $9,373, an increase of $1,627, and the spousal credit increased by the same amount. [1120] Provincial income tax has now been eliminated for 325,000 low-income british c olumbians since 2001. british c olumbia has the lowest provincial in - come tax rates in all of c anada and for the first two tax brackets. a lso, in January 2010 MSP premiums were eliminated or reduced for about 180,000 low-income families with enhancements to the premium assistance program.

With the introduction of the harmonized sales tax in July of 2010, a new hS t credit was introduced that more than offset the sales tax paid directly by low-income british c olumbians. We have increased the number of child care spaces in b.c. by over 30 percent since 2003, with more than 95,000 licensed care spaces receiving ongoing government fund- ing. The after-tax income threshold for b.c . child care subsidy for a single parent with a child under six has been raised to about $31,000 from $19,000 in 2001.

This is about $38,000 in before-tax earnings. a single parent with a child under six in licensed group care can save up to $550 per month or over $6,000 per year. S. Simpson: i appreciate that the minister has a list of numbers there, and we can all cherry-pick the place that we want to compare this number to that number. i can pick a number that makes the government look bad, and the minister can pick a number that makes the gov- ernment look good.

We can do that, and that's all fine. i can say that we still have the highest child poverty rates in the country, and the minister can say we've brought them down more quickly than at any time in the past. So we can have that little back-and-forth. but the reality is that that doesn't do anything for the 38,000 kids and their families that are living in poverty. The minister and i having this go back and forth over who's got the number that either shines the best or the worst light on things isn't helping.

My question to the minister is this. c an the minister tell me how he feels about how we move forward as a province — a province that's wealthy in relation to the country; a province that needs to get its head around this issue of how we deal with this matter of poverty for these kids, for these families, for seniors, for all of those people? i know the minister, and i know that the minis - ter cares about this. h ow do we move forward, and how does he see us doing that over the next few years? The Premier has talked about families first.

Well, i'm sure the minister would also say that when you talk about families first, you have to pay attention to those families who are most vulnerable and face the biggest challenges. That's the conversation i'm hoping to have with the minister today as it relates to these estimates and this budget and how the minister spends $2 bil - lion plus. c an the minister tell me: how does he see and view us moving ahead to begin to address these issues of pov- erty in ways that will be meaningful for those kids and those families and not as a debate of statistics between him and me? [1125] Hon. H.

Bloy: Y ou know, i want to say that i know the member across and myself and all colleagues in the h ouse want to see the reduction of poverty day by day, and how we move forward is to ensure both a sound benefit and tax regimes. a s i have just outlined for the member, we are also profoundly committed to ensuring a sound economy that provides jobs for working parents so their children can achieve higher financial and well-being outcomes.

We are proud of the profound achievement of reducing child poverty, even reducing it in 2008 in the face of the economic crisis the province was going through. r esearch shows that a main determinant of low in - come and poverty is economic growth and employment opportunities that encourage full-time….

That is why b.c. supports a focused, strengthening economy and job growth as the major long-term strategy for reducing low income and poverty. income assistance alone is not an adequate response to poverty and low income. b.c. recognizes that a variety of approaches are needed, such as tax measures, subsidized housing options, child care subsidies, medical services,

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6821 disability supports and employment programs aimed at reducing and breaking the cycle of homelessness. k ey to success in reducing low-income rates is ensur- ing that work is a better deal than income assistance. t o this end, we have increased work incentives by continu- ing to provide many benefits and services to low-income families not on assistance. b.c. works with other levels of government and addresses low incomes. f or example, b.c. worked with the federal government to redesign the working income tax benefit for b.c. to better assist clients' income assistance for employment.

S.

Simpson: The minister will know that at least six other provinces have adopted, mostly through legisla - tion but some through regulation, poverty reduction strategies that have some form of targets and time - lines for bringing down poverty in their respective jurisdictions. [1130] The minister will also know that this is something that has been adopted by governments of every stripe. it's not r ight; it's not l eft. it's been governments of every stripe that have adopted poverty reduction strategies, and in most cases, they've legislated them. british c olumbia has chosen not to pursue that approach but, as the min- ister says, to do a number of other things. c ould the minister tell the h ouse: what is the think - ing behind the government making the decision that a legislated poverty reduction strategy similar to or com - parable to what has been adopted in six other provinces — i believe it's six; it might be seven now — is not an ap - propriate strategy or approach for british c olumbia? i'm just trying to understand here.

So the minister is maybe clear on what i'm trying to get at here, i'm trying to understand the thinking behind the decision. i ac - cept that there are many ways to get at this issue. That's an approach that's been taken by a number of jurisdic - tions. it's an approach that we on this side believe makes sense — a legislated poverty reduction strategy with tar - gets, with timelines, where the government of the day can be held accountable for progress. The current government, the b.c. l iberal government, has chosen a different approach. i'm simply trying to understand the thinking behind that.

What is it about a legislated strategy that the minister and his government believe is not adequate, not appropriate, not the right solution for british c olumbia? Hon. H. Bloy: Y ou know, a plan is not a panacea for poverty. We recognize that a number of other provinces have adopted official anti-poverty strategies with multi- year reduction targets.

This approach can help to focus government to achieve objectives. h owever, the recent economic re - cession provides a good example of how the labour market and budgetary plans and priorities of the prov - ince can change unexpectedly, making the targets less meaningful. h aving a poverty strategy does not mean that a prov - ince is more effective by reducing poverty.

Quebec introduced a poverty plan in 2003, but since then their total rate of low income has declined by only 1.1 percent- age points compared to 4 percentage points for british c olumbia over the same period. c hild low-income rates have declined by 0.7 percentage points in Quebec com - pared to 8.8 points in british c olumbia. b.c.'s low-income rate for total persons and children living on low income, without a poverty plan, is only 2 percentage points above Quebec's rate.

The results are similar with the n ewfoundland and l abrador poverty strategy enacted in 2006. b.c.'s decline in the rate of total persons living in poverty has been much higher — 1.6 compared to 0.03 percentage points.

The rate of children living in low income has also declined more in b.c. — 6.2 percent compared to 0.02 percent. [1135] What i'm proud of, with our new Premier, is that we have a lens on everything that's happening now — on families first and a commitment to reducing low income. i'm pleased to be part of the families-first committee and working to help every family in british c olumbia for a better life and especially to help low-income families in british c olumbia. S. Simpson: The minister is reading lists again.

The bottom line is that we have tens of thousands of people in this province, even more than that, living in poverty. a ctually, if you include seniors and people living on the bubble and that, we have hundreds of thousands of people who are living in poverty. it doesn't matter what rate you use. i'd be the first one to say that you can argue whether market basket meas - ures or lico before or after tax makes sense or whether we should have a made-in-b .c. measurement for pov - erty and whether poverty in Vancouver, with housing costs what they are, is a different story than poverty in cranbrook, with housing costs what they are there, and other costs.

The reality is this: we still have way too many people living in poverty. We have those other provinces that have adopted plans that people can measure. That's what i'm hearing from folks in british c olumbia — that people want a way to measure how we're doing. They want a way to know that the government has a plan. The minister talks about the Premier. Well, the Premier talks about change. n ow, we haven't seen much in the way of change, but maybe it'll come. Part of that change has got to be how we deal with our most vulner- able citizens.

Part of that change, if it's about families, has to be how we deal with our most vulnerable families. Part of that change, hopefully, has to be that we have ways to measure whether what we're doing is working

british c olumbia Debates6822 t uesday, May 10, 2011 and whether what we're doing is accomplishing object - ives that we have set.

That's about targets, and it's about timelines. it's about setting standards that we reasonably think we can ac - complish in a period of time that is fair and then moving ahead and trying to accomplish them and, if we're not successful, doing the analysis to say why it didn't work and what we need to adjust to make it work better — or if we're more successful than we planned, then to determine what we did that in fact was better than what we thought, congratulate ourselves for that success and move to the next step, to bring poverty down another step. i haven't heard from the minister yet. i have not heard what it is and why the government doesn't be - lieve that it should set targets and timelines that b ritish c olumbians can understand and can reasonably ex - pect the government to hit or not hit and explain why they had success or not.

Why can't the government set some kind of reasonable targets and timelines for deal - ing with this question of getting kids and families, and others, out of poverty? [1140] Hon. H. Bloy: Y ou know, i want to share the member's concern, in that we in government all have the same con- cerns about addressing poverty for families in b.c . This government's energy and focus have gone to initiatives that work and that we believe will make a difference. i've outlined plans in and of themselves before that don't necessarily reduce poverty in british columbia.

W e do measure poverty reduction. i have outlined these for the member. W e will continue to monitor the progress and report on this. We do not believe in setting artificial tar- gets. We believe in monitoring the number of individuals, families and children in poverty and reducing this. We are proud of our considerable achievements in re- ducing poverty to levels not seen for two decades, and we will continue to reduce poverty further. N. Simons: Thank you to the minister and his staff for being here. i have a few questions.

Does the minister know what the income assistance rate is for a single mom with two children under the age of 12? [1145] Hon. H. Bloy: f or a single parent with two chil - dren, the support allowance is $375.58 a month, and the shelter allowance is $660 a month, plus additional benefits. N. Simons: The benefits — what do you mean by benefits? Hon. H.

Bloy: GS t credit, which is federal, $63.50; b.c. climate action tax, which is $20.13; b.c. harmon - ized sales tax credit of $57.50; c anada child tax benefit of $224.66; b.c . family bonus and national child benefit supplement of $328 — for a total income of $1,769.37. N. Simons: a re any of those deducted from the cheque? Hon. H. Bloy: n one of the benefits are deducted from the cheque. N. Simons: When was the last time income assistance rates were raised for employables? Hon. H. Bloy: The rate was increased in 2007. N.

Simons: i know that the minister has a sensitiv - ity to some issues, and i think it's important to talk about poverty in the context of the current impact of poverty. We could talk about rates years from now, but children are living in poverty today, and they're not going to be the ones benefiting from a plan or no plan that sees results or no results five years or ten years down the line. Does the minister recognize that those who are on in- come assistance are not eligible for a transit pass? Hon. H. Bloy: The member across the way is correct. it's only available for people with disabilities at this time. N.

Simons: i'd just like to inform the minister that there are people with children living on income assist - ance in rural parts of our province who are consequently forced to hitchhike, forced to find unreliable methods of transportation to attend the doctor, to attend the food bank once a week, to attend any event at the school or to get their children involved in programs. [1150] Does the minister think it would be a good idea to provide people who are already on the margins of eco - nomic viability with transit passes so that they can become active in their community? [1155] Hon. H.

Bloy: The ministry does not have a bus pro - gram for people other than people with disabilities and low-income seniors.

We're only one of two provinces that offer a generous bus program issued to approxi - mately 80,000 people a year. individuals receiving bus passes that are eligible to re- ceive them are federal old age security and guaranteed income supplement individuals; individuals aged 60 and over who are receiving federal spouses allowance to old age security; immigrants aged 65 and older who meet all the eligibility requirements for the federal income supple- ment except the ten-year residency requirement; clients aged 60 or older receiving income assistance; clients in

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6823 receipt of disability assistance under the employment and a ssistance for Persons with Disabilities a ct; clients with the persons with disabilities designation; those aged 60 or over who are in special care facilities where the minister is paying neither the facility user charge nor the comforts allowance; and first n ations persons with dis- abilities who live on the reserve and receive assistance from the agency, indian and n orthern a ffairs c anada, that provides assistance on reserves. n oting the hour, i ask leave to report progress and sit again.

Motion approved. The committee rose at 11:57 a.m. The h ouse resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. c ommittee of Supply (Section b), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. c ommittee of Supply (Section a), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. h on. i. c hong moved adjournment of the h ouse. Motion approved. Mr. Speaker: This h ouse stands adjourned until 1:30 this afternoon. The h ouse adjourned at 11:58 a.m.

PROCEEDINGS IN THE DOUGLAS FIR ROOM Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of Public Safet Y anD Solicitor General The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section a); D. h orne in the chair. The committee met at 10:07 a.m. on Vote 38: ministry operations, $605,202,000. The Chair: Minister, do you have an opening statement? Hon. S. Bond: i do; just a few brief comments. but let me do my paperwork first. i'm very pleased today to have the opportunity to present the estimates of the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General.

Very importantly, i want to recog- nize members of the staff that are here today. first of all, our Deputy Solicitor General, l ori Wanamaker. We also have t ara f aganello, who is the executive financial officer, and David h oadley, who is our chief financial officer. Throughout the course of the day we'll be joined by a number of exceptional members of the team. They are very good at what they do, and cer- tainly as the new Solicitor General, it's been incredibly interesting to learn more about the ministry supported by a fantastic staff.

Y ou'll meet many of them throughout the course of the next day or so. a very diverse ministry and incredibly interesting. l ook- ing at issues like public safety and regulatory programs, we deal with issues like law enforcement, corrections, crime prevention, victim services, emergency management and a number of other specific areas.

We're also responsible for the insurance c orporation of british c olumbia, the british c olumbia l ottery c orporation, the l iquor Distribution branch and the Pension c orporation of british c olumbia. a s i said earlier, i am extremely impressed with the dedication of the staff in this ministry and their com - mitment to enhancing public safety in every community across our province. c ertainly, there couldn't be a more important ministry from my perspective when you talk about families in the province. e very family deserves the right to live in a safe community, and that's the job that we're working very hard to ensure is the case in british c olumbia.

With that, hon. c hair, i conclude some very prelimin- ary remarks, and i welcome the opportunity to respond to questions this morning. [1010] K. Corrigan: Thank you for that, Minister. i just want to give you a very brief overview of the order of areas that we're going to go into, which may be helpful so that people may not have to sit here all day long. a very quick look, first of all, at the global numbers for the budget.

Then specifically, we're going to go into policing, which will be the next area, and then c orrections, then b.c. c oroners Service, then fire issues, then victim services and then icbc. i thought that might be helpful. i believe that a request, as well, from the ministry is that we deal with icbc at the end of the day today. That will be as long as i am here. The member for Vancouver- h astings is responsible for gaming. h e will be here tomorrow and will ask questions tomorrow in the area of gaming. i'm assuming we're going to finish all these other areas today.

That's our plan. t o start with, i'm glad to hear that the minister says that safety is important to families in british c olumbia. i would just like to start by confirming that the overall budget for the ministry of $605.202 million is a reduc - tion from $607.425 million last year.

british c olumbia Debates6824 t uesday, May 10, 2011 Hon. S. Bond: The member opposite is correct in the fact that numerically there is a reduction. There is a $2.324 million decrease, and that's primarily due to the change in salary benefits. K. Corrigan: i just want to clarify, then. a re you say- ing that the benefits have gone down that amount — the salary benefits? Hon. S. Bond: That's correct. Salary benefits have moved from 24.5 percent to 23 percent. K.

Corrigan: Going into the components of that budget…. i'll just go through these numbers, then, and seek clarification that i've got it right. c orrections. The restated estimates for 2010-11 were $192.904 million last year, 2010-2011, and for 2011- 2012 we're at $190.443 million, with a reduction of $2.4 million for c orrections. Policing and security programs: from $294.169 mil - lion down to $294.202 million, a reduction of $33,000.

Victim services and crime prevention: $42.140 mil - lion down to $41.857 million, a reduction of $283,000. emergency management: $26.913 million up to $27.793 million, an increase of $880,000. office of the Superintendent of Motor Vehicles: $4.708 million to $4.492 million, a reduction of $216,000. e xecutive and support services: $12.022 million to $11.413 million, a reduction of $609,000. e mergency Program a ct: $14.559 million to $14.478 million, which i'm show- ing as plus $81,000, but i think it's a reduction. So have i got those numbers correct? i just want to confirm. Hon. S.

Bond: We'd have to go through the list again, but the member was incorrect in that policing and se - curity programs have gone up by $33,000, and the number that the member opposite has in executive and support services is not the same number that we have. in fact, we have $11.897 million in 2010-2011 moving to $11.413 million. [1015] K. Corrigan: i'll go back and take a look at those numbers, but we're roughly correct. We'll correct those later. o kay, so those are the numbers.

The first area that i wanted to go into, as i mentioned, was about the rcMP . e very year there are surveys and polls conducted on behalf of the rcMP about the level of public trust in the rcMP . i wanted to talk to you about some of those numbers.

There is a question about whether or not the rcMP is an accountable organization. a cross c anada about three-quarters of c anadians think that the rcMP is an accountable organization. in british c olumbia that number is 56 percent. in asking about professionalism, in 2006, 94 percent of british c olumbians thought that the rcMP demonstrated professionalism in its work, and that was higher than the rest of c anada. [J.

Mcintyre in the chair.] in 2009 that number dropped to 74 percent. it was lower than the rest of c anada. in 2010 the survey indi - cates that only 69 percent of people in b.c. believe that the rcMP demonstrates professionalism in its work, as compared to across c anada, with 84 percent. When faced with the statement "i have confidence in the force's integrity and honesty," in 2006, 91 percent of b.c .'ers agreed with that. in 2010 we were down to 69 percent, which i find really unfortunate.

We have a wonderful rcMP detachment in our community of burnaby which is very responsive to the public and is very well trusted. o bviously, that is not felt across the province. f or nearly all the questions, b.c .'s positive responses were the lowest in the country, with the exception of the Yukon, which consistently showed the poorest responses. i want to ask the minister why it is that the minister believes that there is such a low level of public trust for the rcMP . Hon. S. Bond: first of all, i think the member oppos- ite has to put those statistics in context.

There are also other parts of the survey that demonstrate that british c olumbia does have significant confidence in the rcMP . in fact, 82 percent of british c olumbians said they were satisfied with the rcMP's contributions to public safety. So we have to look at the entire survey.

There is no doubt that a number of very high-profile cases in british c olumbia have caused people to ask some serious questions, and i think there's probably no group more concerned about that than the rcMP themselves. i can assure the member opposite that the vast majority of british c olumbians understand that the men and women who risk their lives every day to serve us in this province do an exceptional job. i think there's no doubt that high-profile cases impact people's views, and that has been the case in british c olumbia. K.

Corrigan: Well, given the numbers, and there are certainly very concerning numbers in the ones that i have mentioned here, i want to know what the government is doing to promote renewed confidence in the rcMP . Hon. S. Bond: Y ou know, the government isn't going to be totally responsible for fixing people's confidence in the rcMP . [1020] it's not something that we can mandate. it's not some- thing that we can simply say: "l et's fix this." it's up to all of us, and we are working very collaboratively with

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6825 police services across the province to look at how we re- build confidence. one of the ways we are doing that is we are negotiat - ing an rcMP contract that will look at accountability mechanisms. We're in fact pursuing the concept of an independent investigation office in british c olumbia, which at the end of the day, i think, police — whether they're the rcMP or municipal police forces — would agree would certainly help in terms of the issue of in - vestigating any misconduct that potentially takes place. but it's not something government can mandate.

We're going to work very carefully and closely together with police services across the province. Generally, again i need to say that where i live and the people that i live next door to have enormous con - fidence in the men and women who serve in the Prince George rcMP detachment. The survey does highlight some areas where british c olumbia has seen a drop in confidence, but it also highlights some significant areas where people in this province compare very favourably to national outcomes. K.

Corrigan: Well, the minister says that this is not a government problem particularly, or it's all of our problem, but there are certainly aspects of this that are government problems. The minister mentioned some high-profile cases, and the heart of the high-profile cases that the minister is surely referring to here has completely to do with government failure, government programs, government lack of oversight being in place.

This government has not acted in cases like the r obert Dziekanski case, which happened four years ago. o ver four years ago that r obert Dziekanski died, and there has been a failure by this government to act on that. i would like to go specifically to some of those cases now and ask a few questions about that. first of all, the b.c. civil l iberties a ssociation at the end of o ctober of last year said that b.c. has the highest number of jail or police-involved deaths per year of any of the six provinces and territories for which numbers were available. b.c. has had 267 police-involved deaths over the last 15 years — twice as many deaths as ontario, which has three times our population.

Would the minis- ter agree that those numbers are correct? Hon. S. Bond: a ny death in custody is one that is an important consideration. There are investigations that are done into every one of those circumstances. There are different

definitions across the country in terms of "death in custody" and what that means and when it be - gins and how it's counted. The number of rcMP officers in british c olumbia…. We have 40 percent of all the rcMP officers in c anada in british c olumbia. [1025] it's really important to be careful in terms of how we compare statistics. a ny death in custody is much more than a statistic. a s a result of the recommendations that Justice braidwood gave to government….

We agreed with the recommendations, particularly related to independent oversight, and we are continuing to put in place the neces- sary work to create that type of office in the province. K. Corrigan: Maybe i'll just ask for a little more clar - ity on the response. is the minister saying that these numbers are not correct? Hon. S.

Bond: The minister is saying that, in fact, we need to be careful to be assured that they are taken in the correct context. every death in custody is a serious issue, and we ensure that there is an appropriate investigation and follow-up. i'm simply pointing out that 40 percent of all the rc MP officers in the country are in british c olumbia, and we simply need to be careful that the com- parisons and the statistics are looked at appropriately. K. Corrigan: Maybe you can clarify to me why it's relevant that we have 40 percent of the rcMP .

My understanding was that the b.c. civil l iberties study simply looked at the number of police deaths. it didn't matter whether it was rcMP or municipal police forces, so i'm not sure why it would be relevant that 40 percent of the rcMP members are in b ritish c olumbia. Hon. S. Bond: i don't have the benefit of the study from the civil liberties group in front of me. i under - stand that there was some discussion about the numbers, and part of the discussion related to the fact that the def- inition of "death in custody" is different in different parts of c anada.

So that, from my perspective — if that is ac - curate — would be a relevant discussion. We certainly today don't want to underestimate a death in custody. it is a serious issue that is followed up in terms of a thorough investigation, and if there are consequences and further action, those are also followed up on. K.

Corrigan: i'm wondering then — because we're probably not going to agree on this, or we're not going to resolve this at this point — if as a follow-up the minister could commit to providing me with what the minis - ter believes is the number of police-involved deaths in british c olumbia over the last 15 years and a definition of what a police-involved death is. i'd be happy to have that at some future point. Hon. S.

Bond: We're happy to do that. a long with that, we will also include a copy of the rcMP media statement that, in fact, commented on their concern about some degree of inaccuracy in the numbers, based most particularly on the definition. c ertainly, there was a reaction once that report had been published. i think it would be fair, certainly, to look at both sides of that issue, and we'd be happy to share those numbers.

british c olumbia Debates6826 t uesday, May 10, 2011 K. Corrigan: c hair, i have an interesting thing to ask about. My understanding is that when we are here in the committee room, it is acceptable to use a blackberry; it is not acceptable to be reading from a computer. i'm wondering what we would call what the minister has in front of her, because it looks to me that it's almost like a hybrid. [1030] The Chair: My understanding of that is that comput- ers and blackberrys are allowable for resource but not to be used while either party is speaking.

When they've been recognized by the c hair, they're not to be used. K. Corrigan: So your understanding is that ministers or members are not to be reading off of…. interjection. K. Corrigan: Well, i've been called on it before. The Chair: e xcuse me, but the minister did stand up. Would you like to respond, or are you happy with my ruling? Hon. S. Bond: i'm happy with your ruling, Madam c hair. K.

Corrigan: i was very pleased that the minister men- tioned a few minutes ago that the ministry is working at looking at the concept of an independent investiga - tion office for policing. i'm a little concerned about that wording.

We know that both the Davies c ommission in 2009 and the braidwood inquiry in 2010 strongly rec - ommended that police stop investigating themselves. a s a result of that, then–a ttorney General de Jong an- nounced in June 2010 that government would create an independent, civilian-led body to investigate serious in - juries or deaths involving municipal police and rcMP . a t that time the a ttorney General said that this civilian- led unit would be in place within 12 months, and that would have been, then, June 2011. it is now May of 2011. i was wondering if the minister could tell me what the progress is and whether or not we're going to have that independent, civilian-led over - sight body in place by June of 2011.

Hon. S. Bond: o bviously, we as a government em - braced Justice braidwood's recommendations and found them to be reasonable and important for the province. The work is currently underway. i fully expect to be able to ensure that the independent investigation office is operating in british c olumbia in 2011. K. Corrigan: Well, i think the people of british c olumbia are getting impatient. The people of british c olumbia do not know why this has not been in place earlier.

The recommendations have gone back as far as Wally o ppal, making the recommendation that we needed to have independent oversight of the rcMP in cases of serious wrongdoing by rcMP or police. That goes back years and years. Mr. o ppal was in government for years, and there was no action on that. Then we have r obert Dziekanski — whose name i have terrible trouble pronouncing — who died on o ctober 14, 2007.

Whatever the investigation and the inquiry into that determined in terms of recommenda - tions, surely that should have been a wake-up call for this government to move forward with recommenda - tions that have been there for years and years. a gain we're being told — probably shortly before an election — that we are going to have this work done at some point in the future. t o quote former Justice Thomas braidwood, who the minister quoted a couple of minutes ago and who conducted the commission into the death of r obert Dziekanski…. h e put it best when he just simply said: "i just wish they'd hurry up." n ow we have, in a pril of 2011 — the work that was promised has not been done; there've been more delays — the tasering of an 11-year-old boy. a gain the investi- gation is not independent.

The investigation is done by another police force, which i'm sure was acting respon - sibly and professionally. but again the people of british c olumbia are not comforted by the fact that we have the police investigating themselves. So i want to ask a few more questions. Why has this government reneged on its commitment to have in place an independent, civilian-led body of police oversight by this summer? [1035] Hon. S. Bond: The member opposite is, unfortunately, incorrect.

We have not reneged on any commitment. in fact, i've been the minister perhaps six weeks or so, and i've been very much impressed with the work that's been done in terms of putting the framework in place to cre - ate the independent investigation office. one of the key recommendations that Justice braidwood provided was that the creation of an office of this nature be entrenched in legislation. That actually re- quires additional work, and it requires the ability to have that legislation brought forward. So there is work being done.

The independent investi- gation office will be operating in british c olumbia, and in no way has this government moved away from that commitment. K. Corrigan: Well, the a ttorney General, in 2010, said that it would be 12 months — that it would be in place within 12 months and that there would be a civilian-led unit by June of 2011. it is now May of 2011. June of 2011 is long overdue, and we have yet another delay.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6827 The minister has just pointed out that there needs to be legislation, so i suspect what the minister is saying is that because this l egislature has not sat for the last year with the exception of a few weeks, there has been no op- portunity to put that legislation together. i would put it back squarely on the government. a gain, this is the ir - responsible government that is unable to do the work that the minister says needs to be done because of the fact that this l egislature has not sat. Hon. S.

Bond: We intend to move forward with an in- dependent investigation office in british c olumbia. i had the pleasure of meeting with Justice braidwood very re- cently, and in fact, he was not only impressed but pleased with the status of the work that has been done. i can assure the member opposite that we intend to move forward with this office. We recognize the importance, and that's why we embraced the recom - mendations that were provided to us. There has not in any way been a diminishment of the commitment we have to providing an independent investigation office in british c olumbia.

The Chair: Just a reminder for the clarification of members. Discussing legislation or the need for legisla - tion is not the purview of the c ommittee of Supply. K. Corrigan: i won't discuss legislation anymore. Thank you for that reminder. Still, every once in a while, having been here almost two years, i get reminded of things that i was either not aware of or forgot, so i thank you for that reminder. i do have some more questions, though, about the proposed independent investigation office.

Will the new independent investigation office have authority to inves- tigate complaints and incidents involving serious harm or death against all police officers in british c olumbia — i.e., both municipal officers and the rcMP? Hon. S. Bond: Well, in fact, we obviously intend to entrench the independent office in legislation, so i'm go- ing to be very careful in my comments about what that might look like. i can assure the member opposite that we intend to honour the recommendations and meet the expectations that were laid out in Justice braidwood's report. K.

Corrigan: c an you just remind me, then, be - cause i don't have the report in front of me: did Justice braidwood recommend that this body have oversight over both municipal officers and the rcMP? [1040] Hon. S. Bond: While Justice braidwood didn't ex - plicitly ask for that, what he did recommend was that a conversation take place with the federal government, because there are obviously issues related to jurisdiction.

That conversation has taken place, but i think it is ab - solutely clear that his intent in those recommendations would have been for the iio to actually have jurisdiction over both municipal and the rcMP . K. Corrigan: Well, i appreciate that. i'm going to assume that the answer, then, to the question about whether or not the iio …. i'm happy to call it that and not say it out every time. it will have authority to investigate complaints related to both municipal officers and the Mounties. is that a fair assumption to make, Minister?

The Chair: a gain, if this is a question about what legislation might reflect, i think we're on a fine line here, because we're really not supposed to be talking about and discussing pending legislation. K. Corrigan: Thank you, c hair, and…. The Chair: is that what you're asking? K. Corrigan: i'm not asking about legislation. i'm asking what the ministry plans are. We have a budget before us for what the ministry plans to do. We've had some public comments about what the ministry plans to do. i'd like to ask the minister what the plans are, not what the legislation is going to contain.

The Chair: That's fine. i was just asking for clarifica - tion. K. Corrigan: i'm not concerned about what the legis- lation is — simply what the plans are. Hon. S. Bond: Well, as i mentioned, i think the in - tent that Justice braidwood had was that there be a conversation with the federal government about any jurisdictional issues related to independent oversight of both the municipal and rcMP police services. That conversation has taken place, and that certainly was the intent of the recommendations. We intend to respond to each of the recommendations that Justice braidwood gave to the government. K.

Corrigan: Thank you, Minister. What consulta - tion is being conducted with regard to the structure, the composition? What is this iio going to look like? Hon. S. Bond: Justice braidwood actually provided 19 recommendations. The iio is obviously an important part of them, but there are 19 recommendations. Work has gone on. in fact, there's been a committee in place that has included a large group of stakeholders, for ex - ample, the police obviously, mental health services, civil l iberties, the crown. So there's been a very collabora -

british c olumbia Debates6828 t uesday, May 10, 2011 tive working committee that has actually contemplated the 19 recommendations. K. Corrigan: Thank you, Minister. it's interesting. i haven't seen anything publicly. is there any public re - porting out of the discussions that are happening with these various stakeholders? Hon. S.

Bond: n o, this is a working committee. in fact, part of their job is to discuss what potential legisla - tion might look like, as Justice braidwood recommended. it's also looking at policy development. i'm told that it's been a very productive working group. a gain, they are working to look at the implementation of 19 recommen- dations, not simply the iio . K. Corrigan: When will the work of the committee, this group, be made public — and in what form? [1045] Hon. S.

Bond: Well, as we work through the develop- ment of the policy issues, we will see them implemented in british c olumbia. in fact, we have sign-off from the committee, the very broad-based committee that have been working on those recommendations and some of the standards, for example. They certainly come as a result of Justice braidwood's first report, the recommendations. There are a num - ber of policy issues related to the use of tasers and a number of other kinds of issues. The policies are being developed. They will be turned into regulation and be brought into force. K.

Corrigan: i believe that one of the recommen - dations made by braidwood was that the government report on the extent to which those recommendations had been implemented two years following the release of the report. i'm wondering if the government will commit to publicly reporting on the progress of the recommendations and the extent to which they've been meaningfully implemented as per that recommendation. i believe the deadline for that would be May of 2012. Hon. S.

Bond: Well, the committee and the min - istry have done a lot of work because we recognize the importance of moving forward with the recommenda - tions. We have every intent to be very public about the independent investigation office, and we certainly will include an update as the policies are defined and put into place. We're happy to report publicly about the progress. We said we were going to take the recommendations seriously, we were going to implement them, and that's exactly what we're doing. K.

Corrigan: The recommendation from braidwood was that the government report on the extent to which recommendations have been implemented two years following the release of the report. That would be May 2012. is the minister committing to that public reporting on the progress that has been made on all of the 19 recom - mendations by May 2012? Hon. S. Bond: a s soon as i have confirmation that all of the recommendations have been dealt with, we will be making that report public. o ur intended target date is early June.

So while Justice braidwood suggested May, we will be…. a s a result of transition, there have been some slight delays in us moving forward with informa - tion to the new minister, but in fact, we intend to make a report public in June of 2012. [1050] K. Corrigan: Minister, you spoke about being re - sponsive to all of the braidwood recommendations. c an i take it from that that what government is planning is an oversight body similar to the structure that was rec - ommended by the braidwood report? Hon. S.

Bond: We received the recommendations from Justice braidwood. a s i said to the member oppos- ite, i had the pleasure of meeting with him very recently to give him a status update. it is our intent to begin a civilian-led independent investigation office in british c olumbia. That was the intent of the recommendations provided to the government. K.

Corrigan: braidwood recommended a model. i haven't read the report for a while, to be honest, but i do recall that he recommended a model that had a mix of civilians and officers in it — former police officers who haven't served in b.c. in the last five years, civil - ian investigators — for the first five years and after that a purely civilian unit. i'm just trying to get a sense of what this will look like. i'm not sure how much the minister can give to me to- day, but i'd be interested in finding out more about that structure. i'm also interested in who will have oversight over that body. Hon. S.

Bond: a gain, i need to remind the member opposite that i am in the process of moving forward with one of the key requirements of Justice braidwood's report, and i look forward to entrenching the independ- ent investigation office in legislation. i can assure that you we have paid very close attention to the model and the work that Justice braidwood presented to us, and we will certainly be honouring the recommendations that he made. K. Corrigan: We are now in the 2011 budget year, and the minister, i believe, said that this body would be in

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6829 place by the end of 2011. i'm assuming, then, that there are budget allocations in place for the establishment and the beginning of the operation of this body. i'm wonder- ing what the budget is for this body, both start-up and then the expected operations of this independent police investigation office. Hon. S. Bond: in fact, we are not able to specifically target today when we will begin to hire the staff, the people responsible for operating the iio . We are con - tinuing to work out those budget details.

The first and most important priority is ensuring that the work is done to create the legislative framework necessary. i don't have a targeted date of when staff would begin to be hired, but those budget details are being worked out. once we have the specifics, we will certainly have the budget in place to manage. [1055] K.

Corrigan: o kay, so the minister said that the of - fice would be in place. i assume from that that it would be operating by the end of the year — the end of 2011. it would be up and running with staff hired and in a pos - ition to provide the oversight that it will be tasked to do. is that correct, that it will be up and running by the end of 2011? Hon. S. Bond: a bsolutely.

The issue is that we do not have a specific start date. a s one could imagine with beginning an organization of this significance and mag- nitude, there will be issues in terms of how we recruit, how we put staff in place, but the intent is to move for - ward with the iio and have it operating in 2011. K. Corrigan: So the intent is to have it operating in 2011, but we don't know how much it's going to cost, and we don't have a budget for it.

Since the commitment was made over a year ago that it would be ready, that it would be up and running by June of 2011, i'm wonder- ing how it's possible for us not to have some idea of what the budget is going to be and not to have planned for it in the budget of the ministry in the most recent budget that was just passed. Hon. S. Bond: it has taken a great deal of work to ac - tually contemplate the model for the province of british c olumbia. The great news is that we're moving forward with an independent investigation office.

The intent is to move it forward in 2011. a s we identify most specifically the number of people — the number of investigators, etc. — attached to that model, the budget and the necessary operating funds will be built around the final framework that's put in place for the office. K. Corrigan: Well, it sounds to me like what has ac - tually happened here, then, is that the government has been dragging its feet. it hasn't done any real work until, perhaps, the last few weeks. There has been no planning.

There's no idea what this is going to look like, despite the fact that this government made a promise a year ago that it would be in place by June of 2011. n ow we're finding out that we're looking at what it's going to look like. We are planning to see what the staff are. We don't know what the budget is going to be for it. We're not sure what the form of it is going to be. e ssentially, what the minister is saying is that the work is starting now, that it's in progress. a fter four years — four years after r obert Dziekanski's death — we have a promise that it's going to happen really soon. Hon. S.

Bond: i will be very happy, very shortly, to be able to take the transcript of the comments of the mem- ber opposite when we stand and deliver an independent investigation office for british c olumbia. This govern - ment took those recommendations extremely seriously, and to imply to anyone in british c olumbia that no work has been done is absolutely inaccurate and very unfortu- nate on the part of the member opposite.

The team of people that have worked in a dedicated way for the past year to put the framework in place has done an exceptional job, and at the end of the day, british c olumbia will have a model which will far exceed the investigative units that are in place in a lberta and in ontario. i look forward to reviewing the transcript of these remarks with the member opposite at some point in the very near future. K.

Corrigan: Well, i look forward to it, as well, be - cause the people of british c olumbia have been waiting for literally years for oversight, and if this had been done earlier, if we'd had oversight earlier and the end of police investigating themselves earlier, we could have avoided some further tragedies and unfortunate incidents. i'm very pleased to hear that this is going to be happening very, very soon and that we can look forward to that be- ing in place by the end of the year.

So i'll see it when i believe it. i'm going to move on. n o, i want to ask another question about this, related to the rcMP contract ne - gotiations. [1100] h as the government used the opportunity of the cur - rent contract renewal negotiations between the province and the rcMP at all to pressure or discuss the creation of this civilian-led independent investigation office to ensure police accountability? Hon. S. Bond: in fact, there have been very product - ive conversations with the federal government about the idea of independent investigation.

We've already seen movement on the policy front by the federal government. We fully expect that the creation of the independent in -

british c olumbia Debates6830 t uesday, May 10, 2011 vestigation office in british c olumbia will be followed by legislation by the federal government that would actually give jurisdiction for those independent investi - gations to take place. We've had a very collaborative discussion about in - dependent investigation. it didn't necessarily all take place in the context of renegotiating the rcMP con - tract. in fact, it was a very productive sidebar discussion that started, probably, before we began the discussions around the contract. K.

Corrigan: i'm pleased to hear that. i'm pleased to hear that it looks like we will have a body at some point that will oversee both the rcMP and the municipal po - lice forces in terms of independent investigation of the police. i'm pleased to hear that. i have a couple more questions with regard to taser - ing policies regarding children. c an the minister please let us know what action has been taken or is going to be taken to develop guidelines regulating the deployment of t asers against children? Hon. S.

Bond: a s the member opposite can imagine, i'm not an expert in the thresholds in terms of the use of force. but i am advised, certainly in the work that i've read over the last number of weeks in particular, that the issue is not about age.

Justice braidwood contemplated the question of when a t aser might be appropriate and the threshold at which it may appropriately be used, and the issue is related to the circumstances. h e made the observation or the suggestion that, in fact, the threshold should be determined by whether or not the person, regardless of their age, has the potential to cause harm to someone else or themselves. [1105] So as difficult as it might seem for us to contemplate whether or not there is appropriate use of a t aser in the case of children, the advice that Justice braidwood pro- vided is that age is not the determining factor. in fact, it is more related to the circumstances and the poten - tial outcome of harm to someone else or harm to that individual.

K. Corrigan: Well, although braidwood did not say that it was necessarily related to age, i believe that there were comments made about it being related to size and, because of that, they could be at an increased risk from t asers. i would be in complete agreement with the minister. i am not an expert on t asers either and don't profess to be. h owever, safety of both police officers and of children aside, there has been huge public indignation about the use of t asers on somebody that's 11 years old, apart from what the physical effects could be, and, i believe, rightly so.

So, again, i'm going to ask the minister: is any action being taken to develop guidelines regulating the deployment of t asers against children? Hon. S. Bond: i think i want to begin by just making a comment about the fact that the member opposite refers to an incident that involves an 11-year-old. That circum- stance is currently under investigation, and for us to make assumptions about what happened there without gather- ing all of the facts first is inappropriate.

We have no idea. a s upsetting as it is for everyone — the concept of an 11-year-old being tasered — there is a process underway. it involves the West Vancouver police department, who are doing the job we would expect them to do, and that's actually to get the facts before we make assumptions about what happened there. That work is underway. We are not developing at this point guidelines related to age because, once again, i'm advised that when ad - vice is provided about the use of a t aser, the issue is less related to their age, the individual's age, than it is to the circumstances.

The threshold is imminent harm to someone else or to themselves. That guides the principle of whether or not a t aser should be utilized, not the age of the person involved. i'm very concerned that we're making assumptions about what happened in the case of an 11-year-old when that is an active police investigation. K.

Corrigan: i'm not suggesting that the minister is saying that it's okay to t aser an 11-year-old. is the min- ister saying that it is okay to t aser an 11-year-old if there is imminent harm, that there's a belief that there's im - minent harm to either that child or someone else? is that what the minister is saying? Hon. S.

Bond: Well, as much as we would like to focus this discussion on an 11-year-old that is currently, the situation, under investigation, what i've said repeat - edly is that the expert advice we've been given is that there is a requirement to contemplate the circumstances in any use of a t aser in british c olumbia. The test is the threshold that says that if the person, the individual involved, regardless of their age, is potentially causing imminent harm to someone else or to themselves, then that is the threshold for the use of a t aser.

That is the expert advice, and the comment that was provided…. i shouldn't quote that because i don't have Justice braidwood's words in front of me, but it's certainly the intent, i'm informed, of the comments he made. [1110] K. Corrigan: What the minister is saying, then, is that the appropriateness of using a t aser uses the same criteria whether or not it is an adult or an 11-year-old child. Hon. S. Bond: a s i've said to the member opposite, experts tell us that what is important is whether or not

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6831 the individual has met the threshold of causing immin - ent harm to themselves or to someone else. The member opposite is correct not to suggest that the minister is saying anything about the tasering of an 11- year-old, as much as it would be tempting for all of us to make those comments. i actually believe there's a process underway, and the most important thing we need to do is actually get the facts before we make any assumptions. K. Corrigan: Just a final question on this particular point then.

The minister seems to be saying that the test for both adults and children is that the t aser would not be used unless there was imminent harm to either an - other person or themselves when a t aser is used, and that test would be the same whether or not it's an adult or a child. Hon. S. Bond: h opefully for the final time, age is not the defining factor. a s difficult as that sounds, the ex - pert advice tells us that the key and critical threshold is whether the individual involved in an unfortunate circumstance like that is at risk themselves or they are potentially causing imminent harm to someone else. K.

Corrigan: My understanding is that it was three days before the West Vancouver police arrived on the scene in Prince George to investigate fellow police officers regarding the incident of the tasering of the 11- year-old in Prince George. Would the minister agree that this again highlights how critical it is to put in place independent investiga - tion of the police as quickly as possible? Hon. S. Bond: The decision to put an independent investigation office in place in british c olumbia long preceded the event that is currently under police inves - tigation.

The member opposite could only imagine that it would be completely inappropriate for the Solicitor General of british c olumbia to make a comment about an ongoing police investigation. K.

Corrigan: one of the things that i know from many, many years ago when i used to practice law was that members of the criminal defence bar were very con- cerned about the fact, when there is a serious incident involving police where the average citizen, a non-police officer, if they were being investigated or charged in a serious incident — say, murder; i mean, that would be the extreme — that the processes would be that immedi - ately that individual would be removed, would not have a chance to speak to other potential witnesses or any - one else.

They would probably be put in custody so they wouldn't have a chance to collaborate and coordinate their stories with anybody else. is it fair to assume that when this new independent investigation office comes into being that one of the fea- tures of that office and the staff that are involved in it is that if police are allegedly involved in a serious incident, they will be treated the same way as the average citizen in terms of investigation in order to protect the integrity of the evidence? [1115] Given that we now have a recommendation of a charge of perjury against four officers who were involved in the r obert Dziekanski death, part of that was the fact — or a large part of that, i'm going to assume — that those of - ficers had a chance to get together and talk about what had happened and, according to braidwood, fabricated their evidence.

The Chair: Member, again, just for clarification, i want to remind you that we're discussing Vote 38. i just want to make sure that questions are relevant to the vote. Hon. S. Bond: being mindful of the c hair's direction, i also need to remind the member opposite that we are planning to entrench the iio in future legislation, so i'm not going to comment on the iio specifically. h aving said that, there are standards in place for in - vestigations related to alleged police misconduct or a number of processes. in fact, we have Police c omplaint c ommissioners.

We have other police forces that take care of investigations. but again, i'm going to remind the member opposite that the Solicitor General doesn't have the luxury of assuming anything when it comes to police investigations in british c olumbia. i'm not going to make comment about a number of the comments that the member opposite made. K. Corrigan: in terms of the relevance to the vote, this new independent office will be funded by this ministry, i assume. it is a budget item, and i'm asking questions about what the form and the structure of that publicly funded office is going to look like.

My understanding is that that would be perfectly relevant to the discussions we're having about the budget today. The minister has said that she will not comment. The minister will not comment on what that's going to look like. in terms of the immediate investigation, i would just point out that the police complaint commission is an after-the-fact commission — a complaint after the fact.

What i was alluding to was the importance of hav - ing in place a process wherein if there are allegations of serious police wrongdoing that results in injury or death, it's very important that the processes be seen to be transparent and credible. That's why i was referring to the importance of those kinds of structures in place to make sure that investigations ensure that a repeat of what has been proven to have happened, certainly as in the braidwood report — that there was some discus - sion and aligning of stories — is not possible under this new structure.

british c olumbia Debates6832 t uesday, May 10, 2011 That's not really a question. if the minister doesn't want to answer, i am happy to move on to another mat - ter at this point — unless the minister wants to get up and answer that one. Hon. S.

Bond: Well, it's not that the minister doesn't want to answer; it's that there really wasn't a question. n ot only that, as i understand it — and i was just check- ing for advice — i think there's been a recommendation to charge. i don't think that the officers have actually been found guilty of perjury. t o stand in this place and make those assumptions, certainly from the Solicitor General, would be incredibly inappropriate. i think we need to recognize that there's a recommendation to charge, and there is due process. K.

Corrigan: i am certainly not suggesting anything about the perjury charges that have now been laid. There have been perjury charges laid against the four officers — a recommendation for perjury charges.

Sorry. i'm not talking about that. [1120] [D. h orne in the chair.] i'm talking about the comments that Thomas braidwood made in the recommendations in his re - port. if i am mistaken, then i would truly apologize. but i do believe that Thomas braidwood did suggest that there was discussion among the officers and that it didn't line up with what the tape that was taken by the civilian said happened. a s far as that goes, i'm not prejudging what's going to happen if there are perjury charges and what will hap - pen in that case — not at all. i wanted to move on to a few questions about PriMe-bc, P riMe being the police records informa - tion management environment.

This is the database that came about, i guess, in 2003.

Then–Solicitor General r ich c oleman introduced legislation that "all police forces in the province use a common information system to enhance public safety and improve law enforcement across the province." This database, this records management system, "con - nects every police department and rc MP detachment throughout the province and provides access to in - formation about criminals and crimes instantly to all police officers." r ecently the civil l iberties a ssociation of british c olumbia announced, i think through freedom-of- information requests, that P riMe-bc now has 4.4 million master name records on its database — this database that was intended to be a tool to track career criminals, serial criminals and sex offenders. i think that's how it was originally sold.

There are now 4.4 mil - lion names there, which would exceed the around 3.8 million british c olumbians over the age of 15. Would that number be correct? Hon. S. Bond: The number that i have been given that is on the P riMe system is 4.452 million master name entries. K. Corrigan: Well, i guess that'd be pretty close to 4.4 million. Thank you for that. Does the minister think it is appropriate to have 4.4 million names on a database that is supposed to be pro - viding information and tracking individuals connected to crime? Hon. S.

Bond: first, i think we have to look at what a database means and who might be on it. first of all, there are a large number of duplicates on the system, and we've been very clear about that. Whenever there is a crime reported, this is a database that is a tool to help police officers in british c olumbia make sure that we're cracking down on criminals and crime. if you think about that, if there's a crime reported, there is a complaint. That would be one name. There is a wit - ness. There are, potentially, registered-vehicle owners or drivers. it is a records management system.

So dependent upon the number of incidents in a province, if you attach witnesses and suspects and complainants…. it's called data management for a reason. it has rec - ords management abilities so that police officers can do their job effectively in british c olumbia. The Chair: Member. K. Corrigan: Why, thank you, c hair. We have a change there. So this is not a criminal database; this is a records man- agement database with 4.4 million names on it. if i were to be a witness to a crime, would i be on the database? Hon. S.

Bond: Y es, if you were a witness to a crime that was reported, you may be on that database. [1125] K. Corrigan: There was reference to something called negative contact. i'm wondering if the minister can tell me what that means. Hon. S.

Bond: i do want to recognize that i have k evin begg with me, who will forget more about poli - cing than i will ever know in my entire life. i'm very grateful that he's here today and for the wonderful job he's done. c ertainly, in my transition i have appreciated it very much. n egative contact is…. f or example, if you are a suspect in a criminal investigation, that would be con - sidered a negative contact. if you are a witness or if you

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, May 10, 2011 6833 are a complainant, you would not be a negative contact; you would be a contact as part of that database. h owever, if you are the suspect in a criminal investigation, that would be a negative contact. K.

Corrigan: o kay, so some of the specific examples that the b.c. civil l iberties a ssociation raised as those that were defined as having negative police contact would be someone arguing with a paramedic, renting a room in a shared home where a roommate was arrested, being caught drinking as an 18-year-old in a park and being named in a 911 complaint about harassing phone calls that were never even investigated. is b.c. civil l iberties correct that those complaints or those types of complaints would be included in what is defined as negative police contact? [1130] Hon. S.

Bond: We've had a wonderful briefing on negative contact. What i'm able to share with the mem - ber opposite is that on the database there is no box that says: "This is a negative contact." There isn't a column that says that if you did this or you did that, you're a negative contact. That doesn't come into play in terms of the PriMe database. in terms of the specific cases or examples that the mem- ber opposite provided, we have no way of suggesting to the member opposite that that may or may not have been a negative contact.

The only time the issue of a negative contact comes into play is if a criminal records check is done. but the database itself does not contain a column that says you are a negative or a positive contact. K. Corrigan: Thank you for the clarification, Minister. So it makes sense that it would be in a criminal records check. i guess more germane, then, would be this ques - tion: would those specific instances that i talked about be examples of information that would be on the database? Hon. S. Bond: a gain, we are unable to speculate about examples for which we have no facts.

What happens is that a police officer goes to an inci - dent or is called or appears at a particular scene. a t the end of that they actually type a report. h e or she types a report, and the report is where the data is gleaned from that goes into the database. So if there was a complain - ant, a witness, a suspect, those would then be entered into the PriMe database. it's impossible for us to speculate on the list that was provided when we have absolutely no idea what the rest of the circumstances might have been or even where those names came from. K.

Corrigan: Well, those cases, according to the b.c. civil l iberties a ssociation, are all individuals who said that they had a criminal records check done and were all surprised to find that that box, which is on the crim - inal records checklist, was ticked off as negative police contact. The police contact was related to those situa - tions that i talked about. What i guess i'm trying to get at, then, is a clarification.

When there is some kind, any kind, of police contact that is reported in any way or goes into a report, which could conceivably include being caught drinking as an 18-year-old in a park, then it would go into — i'm trying to understand how this database works — the database and would remain there whether or not there were any criminal charges, any charges of any kind, any follow-up or even an investigation. That data would then go into the database, and there it would remain for all to see that can access that database. [1135] Hon. S.

Bond: Where to begin? n ames are kept in the database according to a records-keeping protocol. o bviously, probably, if you've committed murder, you're going to be on the records management system for the rest of your life. i think that the general public would ex- pect and assume that person is there. f or lesser issues there would be a protocol in place, and there would be varying amounts of time where the name would stay on and eventually would be taken off. it might be two years or whatever it is, depending upon the specific case.

This is a data management system. i should point out, though, and it's really important to note this, that there is very controlled access to this database. The gen- eral public, or i as an individual, can't go and ask to see the record of another person. The only person who can check the database about their own status is the individ- ual themselv

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0510am 05
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0510am 05
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a668e4d68e79b700956ae004715d97a72880a529

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