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May 4,

GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Mark Browne, MHA for Placentia West Bellevue,

substitutes for Neil King, MHA for Bonavista.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Tracey Perry, MHA for Fortune Bay Cape La Hune,

substitutes for Steve Kent, MHA for Mount Pearl North.

The

Committee met at approximately 6 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Finn):

Good evening everyone and

welcome.

My name

is John Finn; I'm the MHA for Stephenville. I'll be filling in as Chair this

evening for Mr. Edmunds.

Also

this evening we have substituting Mr. Browne is substituting for Mr. King; Ms.

Perry is substituting for Mr. Kent.

The

first order of business will be to accept a motion to adopt the minutes of the

Government Services Committee as just distributed, the minutes from a meeting of

April 11.

Can I

have a motion to accept the minutes?

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So moved.

CHAIR:

Moved by Mr. Hutchings;

seconded by Ms. Haley.

Thank

you.

motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

First of all this evening

we're going to start with the Public Service Commission and we just ask that

Members be patient with us as we exchange staff. There are three departments

that will be dealt with here this evening.

So with

respect to the Public Service Commission, we'll start with the minister with

some opening remarks.

Shall

1.1.01 carry?

Minister Bennett.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Thank you.

I think

if it's okay with the Members of the Committee, I'll just take a moment to

introduce the officials that are here. So maybe we'll start with the deputy or

sorry, we'll start with you, Bruce.

MR. HOLLETT:

Thanks.

Bruce

Hollett, Chair and CEO of the Public Service Commission.

MR. SMYTH:

Mike Smyth, Manager of Appointments and Accountability, Public Service

Commission.

MS. TRICKETT:

Wanda Trickett, Departmental Controller.

MS. C. BENNETT:

For Members of the

Committee, you'd be aware that the Public Service Commission, or as it is

referred to as the PSC, it is the arm's-length agency that supports government's

efforts to be accountable and transparent by ensuring that hiring for public

service positions and appointments to agencies, boards and commissions are based

on merit. The PSC has a legislated mandate for staffing policy and oversight of

the staffing process to ensure fairness and open opportunity in government

hiring and appointments and to provide a highly qualified, non-partisan public

service for government and the people of the province.

addition to its role in staffing and appointments, the PSC also administers and

chairs classification appeal processes, administers the

Conflict of Interest Act , provides

Employee Assistance and Respectful Workplace programs for public sector

employees, administers the ABC, or agency, board and commission application and

merit-assessment process and provides support to the Independent Appointments

Commission, or the IAC. The integrity and impartiality required to properly

deliver on its mandate is enhanced by the neutral and independent nature and the

reputation of the PSC.

With

that, Mr. Chair, the heading 1.1.01, I'll leave it to you.

CHAIR:

Okay. Thank you, Minister

Bennett.

We'll

now turn to the Committee. Before we listen to any opening remarks, I'll kindly

ask that you take a moment, if you can, to introduce yourself to the minister's

staff.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Keith Hutchings, MHA,

District of Ferryland.

MS. DRODGE:

Megan Drodge, Researcher

with the Official Opposition caucus.

MS. PERRY:

Tracey Perry, MHA, Fortune

Bay Cape La Hune.

MS. MICHAEL:

Lorraine Michael, MHA, St.

John's East Quidi Vidi.

MR. MORGAN:

Ivan Morgan, Researcher, NDP

caucus.

MS. HALEY:

Carol Anne Haley, MHA, Burin

Grand Bank.

MR. BROWNE:

Mark Browne, MHA, Placentia

West Bellevue.

MS. PARSLEY:

Betty Parsley, MHA, Harbour

Main.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much.

We'll

turn to Mr. Hutchings for any opening remarks.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'll start off with some line items; 01, Salaries. I noticed Salaries

what was estimated in the 2016-2017 budget was exceeded. Then, in 2017-2018,

the estimate is again lower than what the original estimate was in 2016-2017.

I'm just wondering if I could have some explanation in regard to that.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Sure.

The

increase in the projected revised for '16-'17 would have been driven I think

it's $49,700. That would have been increased as a result of retirement costs

that were paid to three employees in 2016-2017 totalling $141,000 for the

retirement amounts. That's one of the reasons for the difference.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So those three positions,

Minister, are they related to I'm trying to remember the 450 FTEs that were

announced in last year's budget?

MS. C. BENNETT:

These would have been

retirements.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Retirements, okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Thank you.

If we

go to Employee Benefits, I guess that's under the bigger envelope here, but last

year the budget amount was not used, there's a small difference there. What

would that have been?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Sorry, just for clarity, are

you asking about the decrease from $6,600 to $2,700?

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yes, from the estimate and

from the actual.

MS. C. BENNETT:

So that decrease was from

the reduced cost by restricting participation in conferences and deferring some

employee training.

The

Public Service Commission and I'll ask the CEO to correct me if I happen to

speak incorrectly when their budget is approved, because they're a stand-alone

independent organization, they have to make sure they take their full envelope

for the year, and they have to manage it throughout the year because they don't

have the opportunity to come to Treasury Board looking for additional funding.

So they have to be stand alone.

In this

case, there was $3,900 less spent on travel. The reason the increase then is at

$7,600 over $6,600 reflects the requirements as per the departmental zero-based

budgeting submission.

I can

get Bruce to speak to that if you'd like.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Sure.

MR. HALLETT:

Yes, as the minister said, we put a very tight rein on anything we would

consider to be controllable costs last year because it became evident very early

in the year that we were going to be running into trouble with respect to our

EAP spending which is, of course, an open-ended program or a demand-driven

program. So we basically held back on everything that we could.

terms of the money for next year being up by $1,000, that's based on the

professional requirements for our EAP counsellors in terms of what they do. The

things we deferred last year, we have to do this year in terms of keeping their

accreditations, et cetera, up to where they need to be.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So that would be related to

certification of EAP counsellors.

MR. HALLETT:

And ongoing professional development for them to make sure they're up to date in

terms of alternative dispute resolution, all those things that they have to be

on top of.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. So it wouldn't be

related to the utilization of EAP or how many EAP. This is just related to

certification

MR. HALLETT:

Correct.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

career development, those

kinds of things?

MR. HALLETT:

Correct.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. Thank you.

Down below on Transportation and Communications, the budget

amount was not used there last year. I think it was $14,300 was unused, and then

this year it was bumped up again. There is an increase there. Could you just

give us some details on that?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah.

So the

decrease in the Transportation and Communications from last year was that the

travel activity, as Bruce has indicated, was severely restricted to essential

travel only. The Independent Appointments Commission met regularly throughout

the year and the EARWP continues to provide training intervention services

across the province, but travel was certainly restricted. I think the travel for

the IAC came in less than?

MR. HOLLETT:

Yeah, we didn't have any experience of course with the IAC prior to last year,

so we wanted to make sure that we had enough for them. Again, because of the

pressures on EAP costs, we deferred whatever we could in the way of travel,

including Respectful Workplace and EAP training that they would normally go out

and do across the province. We deferred some of that until this year.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay, so the transportation

costs for the Independent Appointments Commission members would be included in

this line item?

MR. HOLLETT:

Yes.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

And in 2016-2017, what were

the actual travel costs for the Independent Appointments Commission?

MR. HOLLETT:

It would have been in the vicinity of $15,000.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

$15,000?

MR. HOLLETT:

Right.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

In your projections for

2017-2018, has that projection increased or is it somewhat status quo when you

went through the zero-based budgeting process?

MR. HOLLETT:

We would have estimated about $20,000 for them because it would be a full year

where it was not a full year last year.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. Thank you.

If I

could go to Professional Services, the budget exceeded from the Estimate last

year and we look at the revised. What would that be for in regards to that

increase?

MS. C. BENNETT:

That would have been as a

result of the increase in Employee Assistance and the increased uptake. The

uptake would have been driven from a number of things related to personal

situations that employees found themselves in, personal situations that their

spouses and family members found them in. That was what drove the Professional

Services increase in '16-'17. In '17-'18, the Public Service Commission

requested that increase be carried into their budget to reflect that as well.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

What we're looking at here

in regards to EAP, that would have been contracted services as well as in-house

or would it just have been all contract?

MS. C. BENNETT:

My understanding is that the

first intake is done at the Public Service Commission.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Sure.

MS. C. BENNETT:

And should an individual

need or require to be referred to somebody outside the PSC, counsellors will

provide that.

Bruce,

I don't know if you want to add anymore texture to that?

MR. HOLLETT:

No, that's exactly right,

Minister. We do the initial intake or the triage, if you will. Then we put them

out to whatever counsellors in the community are best suited to handle the

particular issue that people are presenting with.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

This

line item here, would the majority of that be for EAP services?

MR. HOLLETT:

Virtually all of it.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Virtually all of it. Okay.

I see

there's a small increase in Estimate for 2017-2018. It's not a line item, but

certainly in regard to the budget amount do you foresee an increase in regard to

EAP services or status quo? What's your thought in terms of going forward this

year?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Well, the department or the

PSC is going to end the year for fiscal '16-'17 with increased expenses of about

$131,000 related to the Employee Assistance Program.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

What we've done is we've

made the allowance for $150,000 so that, again, to provide, as I said earlier,

an opportunity for the PSC to be able to do its work. Because it doesn't have

the opportunity to come and look for support from other departments, it has to

stand alone on its own. So we wanted to make sure that the PSC was properly

resourced, particularly, with sensitivity to the need for Employee Assistance

Program availability.

Of the

$150,000 there was also $5,000 in the Professional Services that was identified

under zero-based budgeting. That nets the $145,000 increase.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

Under

Revenue Provincial there's a revised number for 2016-2017. I'm just curious,

this $4,900, what would that be?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah, that was the recovery

of a duplicate payment recovery.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

As well, recovery from the

services, should it be necessary, but it's on a cost-recovery basis. The school

board would then and it would be booked as revenue.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

Minister, you referenced the fact that the Public Service in its budget envelope

wouldn't go back during the year, I guess, to Treasury Board or the government

to increase that envelope. On the line here, Total: Services to Government and

Agencies, the budget for 2016-2017 Estimate was $2.482 million. The revised was

$2.650 million. Where would that increase come from if they couldn't go back to

government for that?

MS. C. BENNETT:

On the total? I spoke in

error because the $130,000 for the EAP was an approved item for the Treasury

Board, so just to clarify that for the Member opposite.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

They did come into Treasury

Board and ask.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So during the year they

would have been back for EAP and looked for an increase.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes, and it would have been

a directive.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

Thank

you.

Mr.

Chair, if somebody else wants to ask a question, they can.

CHAIR:

Sure. Thank you.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Chair.

I don't

have any questions for the line items but I do have some general questions.

Minister, first looking at the description of what the mandate and what the PSC

is tasked with, it has responsibility for establishing and enforcing policy for

the protection of the merit principle in recruitment and selection within the

public service. And that's fine, but I'm wondering if any thought is being put

into bringing in other principles such as the equity principle, and not just

gender equity, people with disabilities, race, et cetera. Because it seems to

me, it's at this point where we need to have that principle in and I'm wondering

if any thought has been given to that.

MS. C. BENNETT:

I certainly appreciate the

Member opposite's thoughts and opinions on that. Any work that government is

undertaking to look at policies like that, I don't have the information to share

in Estimates.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Maybe we can get that

in another way outside of Estimates, maybe sitting down with people who are

working on the policy and get some information on that.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

And

with regard to the EAPs, is a record kept of certainly the numbers are being

kept the different areas that people are requiring the service?

MS. C. BENNETT:

I'll let the CEO speak, but

I would suggest that at a minimum, for privacy reasons, although the Commission

may keep records to be able to forecast what it needs in actual supports,

particularly in skill sets, as Bruce as indicated for the individuals that may

be triaged when they come in, I would suggest for privacy reasons that type of

information wouldn't be kept, but I'll turn it over to you, Bruce.

MS. MICHAEL:

I'm only thinking about

numbers. I certainly wouldn't want to know names or departments even but if

there are some that have to do with sexual harassment, different things, I don't

see a privacy issue there, but I'll wait to hear Mr. Hollett's explanation.

MR. HOLLETT:

We track the intake numbers very, very carefully and monitor the overall usage

and look at what proportion of the public service is using EAP from one year to

the next. Very early in the year we can tell, based on the intake numbers,

whether we project that we're going to have a budgetary issue for that year.

With

respect to the types of issues that people present with when they come to EAP,

we also track that very closely from the perspective of making sure, number one,

that our own staff have the right skill sets to deal with that and, secondly,

that we have the right supports in terms of the providers that we use out in the

community.

we're running into a new and particular issue, certainly in the addictions area,

for example, then we may find that we need to find more counsellors, not just in

the St. John's area but in other areas of the province as well to help us deal

with that. But we track that.

Ms.

Michael, overall, I think when we look at the types of issues that people

present with, there are no substantial changes from one year to the next in the

last three or four years that I can put my finger on to say that one area has

become particularly challenging, except perhaps in the addictions area.

MS. MICHAEL:

So it's

MR. HOLLETT:

But it's more anecdotal in terms of us understanding what the needs are in the

community and making sure that we're able to deal with those as they come in.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Is that information

that is collated and could be shared?

MR. HOLLETT:

We do maintain statistics

with respect to overall usage in terms of the numbers of people that we intake

every year. I'm not aware that we keep statistics as such in terms of the issues

that people are presenting with.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

Minister, I think last year when we went through this we learned that there was

a backlog in classification appeals. Where do things stand right now with

backlogs?

MR. HOLLETT:

We are making our way

through the backlog. It was a very large backlog on the management appeals.

We're making good progress with it. We're not through the backlog but we are

plowing through them.

MS. MICHAEL:

Well, there are other types

of appeals as well, obviously. Is there a backlog there as well?

MR. HOLLETT:

The other types of appeals

that we would see would be people coming with staffing appeals, that they don't

like the outcome of the staffing action. But we don't have a backlog with those.

We're usually able to deal with those very, very quickly.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

Minister, I'm just wondering, how have things gone with the IAC and has the

Public Service Commission been able to keep up with is there extra workload, I

guess I should ask first of all, and is there enough staffing, if there is, to

keep up with that?

MS. C. BENNETT:

I think the volunteer

members of the IAC certainly would indicate that the staff in the PSC has been

very supportive and very helpful. I think they've worked on new processes and

systems to be able to move through the volume of activity that they've had to

do. If you think about it as a start-up entity that had to kind of create the

processes in-house, there was certainly a lot of collaboration between staff and

the PSC and collaboration from the volunteer members.

There's

no doubt that the volume of positions, particularly because we were just coming

out of a former administration into a new administration, positions had been

vacant for a period of time. The IAC is working very diligently to provide

recommendations and I think they would say they've been making progress.

We've

also seen progress and activity changes in recruitment activity. Certainly, this

is continuous. Any time you try to recruit volunteers of individuals to sit and

serve the public, you want to make sure you are encouraging people from broadly

across the province to participate, from every corner of the province, and

certainly the PSC has taken a number of initiatives with a number of different

departments to kind of support the work that the volunteer committee does. We've

seen some really good results, I think, from some of the inflow of resumes that

has been coming in.

The

committee, as you may or may not be aware, there are five members and they split

into two groups of three to deal with particular recruitment activities. So for

that reason, they're able to share some of the workload. And we continue to look

for feedback from the committee on things we can go to improve. We'll certainly

be working on continuous improvement activities to make sure that the IAC

operations and the results meet the expectation of Bill 1.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

Minister, could we have, I guess not an explanation so much, but give us an idea

of all the different ways in which the positions are advertised.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes. Bruce, do you want to

speak to that?

MR. HOLLETT:

First of all, we post all of the opportunities on the appointments website,

which is linked right off government's website. Depending on the nature of the

position, periodically we'll have Mr. Wells put out a press release announcing

that we are recruiting for a particular opportunity.

We use

Twitter very extensively. We found that to be quite helpful. We reach out to

different industry organizations. Or if we're looking for lawyers we'll reach

out to the Law Society, we'll have them promote it to their members. We reach

out to the Institute of Corporate Directors and have them promote it with their

members.

Also,

every time we do recruitment for a particular board, we'll talk to the

department or entity involved and ask them to provide us with a list of their

stakeholders. Then, we will do our best to reach out to those stakeholder groups

to have them promoted amongst their members.

typically do as much of that as we possibly can to try and generate interest in

people putting their names into the process and going to the application portal,

having a look and seeing if there's anything there that interests them in terms

of a board opportunity.

MS. C. BENNETT:

I'll just add that the

Women's Policy Office has also supported the efforts of the PSC to make sure

that we are communicating in places that may be non-traditional to encourage

women from across the province to participate as well. We're continuing to put

very serious effort into that.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Just

one more question, if I may ask it. He's saying no, so I'm going to go ahead.

The

Respectful Workplace Program is still in place, no changes?

OFFICIAL:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

That's

all from me, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Mr.

Hutchings.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Thank you.

Minister, in regard to the Independent Appointments Commission, the only cost

incurred by government overall, is that the cost of travel and any services that

are used by the Public Service to assist the Independent Appointments

Commission?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Administrative services to

support the committee would be housed and coordinated through the PSC. All of

the PSC materials paper, whatever they would need to go through the day-to-day

activity that they do, is supported through the PSC and the PSC's budget. So

there's no interaction with any other agency, board, commission or government

department by the IAC that I'm aware of.

MR. HOLLETT:

No, that's correct. The only other potential cost is if, for example, a

particular organization for which we are recruiting, maybe a CEO wanted to do a

national advertising campaign, then that would be paid by the department itself

or the entity itself, but we have not had any of that yet.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

These

are all volunteers, right, so there's no per diem or anything paid when they

sit?

MR. HOLLETT:

Right.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

I don't

know if you have it now, but could we get a list of the independent appointment

reviews, how many have been done for positions in government, how many referrals

have been done to Cabinet and to a minister?

MR. HOLLETT:

I can give you some of those numbers right now, if you want.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Sure.

MR. HOLLETT:

In terms of the activity so far, over 1,100 individuals have applied. We've had

about 2,500 applications, because some of them have applied for multiple boards.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Sure.

MR. HOLLETT:

So far between the IAC for tier one and the PSC for tier two, we've processed 48

different board opportunities in terms of completing them through to the

recommendation stage. We've done three CEO positions that have been complete,

and those have been sent through to the recommendation and appointments made to

those.

We have

another 87 boards in play at the moment for which we are recruiting both IAC and

the tier two ones that are done with the PSC, and we've got three executive

recruitments that are ongoing now that are not complete yet. So it's been quite

busy.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So there are 48 that have

been completed and appointed?

MR. HOLLETT:

Forty-eight for which recommendations have been sent.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MR. HOLLETT:

I mean, that would include right up to last week, for example, in terms of

recommendations sent. Not all of those appointments are made yet, but 48

recommendations so far.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

No, fair enough.

Are you

aware of any recommendations that have been rejected?

MR. HOLLETT:

All of the appointments that have been made so far have been directly from the

recommendation lists that were sent by the IAC and the PSC, without exception.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay, thank you.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Sorry, if I might.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

No, go ahead.

MS. C. BENNETT:

I would just add that when

the Independent Appointments Commission began its work, the volunteer board held

a series of meetings planning strategic planning days with staff at the PSC. I

was invited to attend and, as part of that, we had significant discussion about

the expectation that the recommendations coming from the committee would feed

into the Cabinet decision-making process and I made a commitment to the members

of the volunteer board, just as we had made in the legislation, that the

recommendations from the Independent Appointments Commission would be those that

Cabinet would consider.

I just

wanted to add that to Mr. Hollett's confirmation, that's been what's happening.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

Minister, is there a wait time I don't know if you covered this or not, I'm

just curious for EAP? What that wait time would be now?

MR. HOLLETT:

No, there's no wait time.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay, no wait time.

Thank

you.

There

was an attrition plan started in 2015. I know we talked about it last year as

well. Is that still being pursued by the public service?

MS. C. BENNETT:

The salary dollars that we

talked about, and the former administration had put in as attrition, all those

salary dollars had already been taken out by the budget that you guys had done

in 2015.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yes.

MS. C. BENNETT:

The staffing changes that

would have been made since then would have been based on the analysis of what's

been going on in different departments and in this particular entity.

Bruce,

is there anything that you want to speak to specifically about your staffing?

MR. HOLLETT:

With respect to staffing levels at the PSC, we had 18 people last year at the

PSC, including one temporary and one part time. This year we have 17; one

temporary and one part time.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. Last year, I know in

our discussion, you indicated there was a vacant position that would support the

Independent Appointments Commission.

MR. HOLLETT:

Yes.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Is that person the only

person that still supports the Independent Appointments Commission or are others

because your numbers have dropped from 18 to 17? So I guess

MR. HOLLETT:

The drop from 18 to 17 is not related to the Independent Appointments

Commission.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MR. HOLLETT:

We have two people who support the IAC process almost full time, not quite full

time, and there are probably three others of us who spend varying amounts of

time on support to the Independent Appointments Commission. The one position

reduced was in investigations.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. They would be

investigations related to what?

MR. HOLLETT:

They would be general investigations throughout government. Whether those would

be harassment investigations, et cetera.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MR. HOLLETT:

Human Resource Secretariat has primary responsibility for investigations. The

PSC had an investigator position there for years. Essentially, it was we would

help when needed.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MR. HOLLETT:

Through the restructuring

process, that entire responsibility was given to or left with the Human Resource

Secretariat. We did not have primary responsibility at all.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

One of

the functions in the description for the Public Service Commission is support

the Conflict of Interest Advisory Committee. Who chairs that committee?

MR. HOLLETT:

I do.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay, so who else would be

on that committee?

MR. HOLLETT:

The committee members would

include an assistant deputy minister from the Department of Justice. All the

positions are by position as opposed to by individual. So it would also be the

deputy minister of Human Resource Secretariat, deputy minister of Transportation

and Works and the president of the College of the North Atlantic. Those are the

other members of the Advisory Committee.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. When would that

committee have been appointed? Is that an annual appointment or is it position

appointed? Basically, it's the status quo.

MR. HOLLETT:

Standard.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

How

many reviews would the Advisory Committee have done this year? Do you have any

idea?

MR. HOLLETT:

We do on average I don't

have the exact number 15 a year.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

Would

that be public knowledge on which ones were done?

MR. HOLLETT:

No, it wouldn't. We get a

direct request from a deputy on a particular issue to have a look at it and we

will provide them advice. They're always about individuals so we don't make that

information (inaudible).

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So that would maybe be

driven by a deputy minister in a department who, before hiring, may want to have

some feedback on possible conflict to through the Advisory Committee? Would that

be how it would work?

MR. HOLLETT:

That is a scenario but it's

not the most common scenario. The most common scenarios would be situations

like, for example, a deputy may contact me and say one of our staff has been

invited to a trade show down in New York, all expenses paid. Is it okay for them

to take it? We would provide advice on that. Or somebody retired from the

department six months ago, we need them to come back for a month on a contract

to help finish up construction of a bridge.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MR. HOLLETT:

Those are the types of

issues that we would get into.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Would you ever see if it's

initial appointment or initial review of a position that someone was going into

that you'd be asked to review whether, in your opinion, there would be any

possible conflict under the conflict legislation?

MR. HOLLETT:

On occasion, we are asked

somebody has just been hired and they, for example, or their spouse might be

involved in a business that in some way might be perceived to be doing business

with the department. The deputy will ask us for advice as to how that should be

structured to ensure that there is no conflict. That does happen from time to

time.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. Thank you.

Just a

final question on the merit principle in regard to the Public Service

Commission: When you're going to your competitions, how does that work in regard

to bargaining, non-bargaining and management in the public service? Is it viewed

all the same or is there any variance from that in regard to using the merit

principle?

MR. HOLLETT:

Number one, I need to clarify that the Public Service Commission would be doing

staffing policy.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Sure.

MR. HOLLETT:

But the Human Resource

Secretariat, the staff would be doing the actual staffing itself. The merit

principles would be the same regardless of whether a position was management or

bargaining. But there may be situations with union positions where seniority or

other factors may also come into play and may require a secondary evaluation in

terms of: If you have two candidates that are virtually very, very close in

terms of how they came out, the union contract may require, or may suggest, that

the position be given to the person with the greatest seniority. Those will be

the only differences between management and union positions.

CHAIR:

I remind the Member his time

has expired.

Shall

1.1

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Excuse me.

MS. MICHAEL:

I would like to ask a couple

of more questions, please.

CHAIR:

My apologies.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just

coming back, Minister, to the classification appeals and as the deputy has

said backlog continues I'm just wondering: What is the length of time, the

wait time, for getting an appeal settled?

MS. C. BENNETT:

I'll turn that to the

deputy.

MR. HOLLETT:

When we've been doing bargaining unit appeals we are essentially up-to-date

which usually means that we can get an appeal heard within three months. For the

management appeals, we're still dealing with the backlogs, so some of those are,

in some cases, several years old. New ones that come in, it would be reasonable

we tell people that we're not going to get to it in the short term, certainly

what we would consider to be a desirable period, which is about three months,

but we will get to it.

MS. MICHAEL:

But sometimes they're

longer.

MR. HOLLETT:

Sometimes they're longer.

MS. MICHAEL:

Minister, with regard to the

staffing around appeal investigations, I see from the active staff complement

that there are just three positions there: employee services officer, info

management technician and administrative officer. Is that correct?

MS. C. BENNETT:

You're getting that from the

Salary Details, is it?

MS. MICHAEL:

No, I'm looking at the

Public Service Commission, Active Staff Complement.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Okay. Sorry, you

MS. MICHAEL:

The temporary position, the

employee services officer, and then two permanents, the information management

technician and the administrative officer.

MS. C. BENNETT:

I'm sorry, I didn't

understand the question.

MS. MICHAEL:

Are they all the staff who

deal with appeal investigations? They're identified as appeal investigations

staff.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Understood.

MR. HOLLETT:

The way that these are presented is based on the historical structure of the

Public Service Commission which doesn't really translate to the way the place is

actually organized today.

With

respect to appeals and investigations, we don't do investigations anymore. But

for appeals, the administrative officer who is there is the person who

administrators the classification appeal process. The information management

technician supports the PSC generally, but it had been voted under the previous

structure in the Appeals and Investigations Division.

When it

comes to staffing appeals, those would be handled through the accountability and

certification area of the Public Service Commission, who are the same people who

support the staffing process, do the staffing audits and also support the

Independent Appointments Commission.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, so this area is just

management appeals.

MR. HOLLETT:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

MS. C. BENNETT:

If I may, the other thing I

point out for the Member is that the Salary Reports as we talked about last

year, we made a decision to have the Salary Reports created from the PeopleSoft

payroll software. Some of the

MS. MICHAEL:

Created from where?

MS. C. BENNETT:

From the PeopleSoft payroll

system.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MS. C. BENNETT:

It's a comprehensive

database of employee information. I appreciate and I'm glad that the Member

asked for clarity on what work is assigned to whom. It's important that the

assumptions, when you read these notes, should be to continue to ask for clarity

as to who is doing what work, because depending on how they've been set up in

the payroll system or how the actual information is printed, may not necessarily

provide the answer to the question.

Mr.

Hollett has provided the answer and I just wanted to call that out for the

Member.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

As far

as I can see for example, with regard to this salary report the departmental

total is just about $60,000 out from what is in your budget. It seems to be

pretty accurate.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Uh-huh.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

Those

are all the questions I have.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Any

further questions?

Mr.

Hutchings.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

No, we're good.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Shall

1.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Against?

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

motion, Public Service Commission, total head, carried.

CHAIR:

That concludes the Public

Service Commission. Thank you very much to the staff.

Minister, next we'll go to

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes, we'll take a minute

just to switch over the staff. I just wanted to take a minute to thank the

officials who have worked hard not only to prepare for this evening's Estimates,

but also who have worked very hard through the entire process of building this

budget and particularly the work that they've done.

We've

been working on this since last fall. I certainly want to acknowledge their

efforts at the Table tonight. I'm sure I speak on behalf of the other Members as

well.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay, we'll now be looking

at the Women's Policy Office.

CLERK (Murphy):

2.8.01.

CHAIR:

2.8.01.

Minister.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Okay.

Well,

before we get into the questions I just wanted to provide a little bit of some

opening comments and talk a little bit about what the Women's Policy Office is

responsible for doing in government for the Committee.

The

Women's Policy Office responsibility includes advising government on gender

issues. They are responsible for working with departments to apply gender-based

analysis to the development of policy, programs as well as legislation.

The

Women's Policy Office leads the Violence Prevention Initiative, which is an

interdepartmental and interdisciplinary strategy to address violence in our

communities and also to partner with equity-seeking groups. They collaborate

with and fund women's centres, the Multicultural Women's Organization of

Newfoundland and Labrador, SHOP, THANL, NAWN as well as Violence Prevention NL.

Some of

the ongoing initiatives to enhance women's economic security: Included in

The Way Forward you would have heard

or read information that we committed to require women's equity plans on

government infrastructure projects. They are also working on a union

collaboration committee to ensure that women who have taken the opportunity to

train in the trades have the opportunity to continue to participate, and working

on pay equity legislation, supporting indigenous women initiatives such as the

indigenous Women in Mining project. They're also working with SNL on the

procurement act regulations and are participating in trade policy development.

Some of

the ongoing initiatives to enhance women's social policy: They are working with

the PSC and the OCIO to improve the IAC website. They're working with the

community sector to bring gender-specific board governance training to women. We

are developing an equity profile which is a compilation of statistical data

about women in Newfoundland. We are continuing the promotion of women on

agencies, boards and commissions.

They're

also engaging with community groups to support shared-space initiatives and

engaging with transition houses, THANL and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation to improve the service delivery to women and children in the

province's shelters and developing a women's leadership strategy.

Some of

the ongoing initiatives on the Violence Prevention strategy that I'd like to

share with the Committee today before we get into the Estimates: The Women's

Policy Office is responsible for leading the increased collaboration among the

violence prevention NL partners and to promote shared services and greater

impact.

They

are supporting training sessions in the community for the VAAT program. They are

working with Justice on initiatives such as the provision of legal advice and

supports to victims of sexual assault and working to increase the capacity in

Labrador, through THANL, to support indigenous women and children fleeing

violence. They're working with the interdepartmental committee on issues of

homelessness and supporting the housing strategy and supportive living.

With

that, Mr. Chair, I'll turn it over to you and the Committee for questions.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister, and

just your staff with you as well.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Right. Thank you. It's been

a long day.

I'll

turn it over to the deputy minister for Women's Policy Office.

MS. BALLARD:

Donna Ballard, Deputy

Minister.

MS. TRICKETT:

Wanda Trickett, Departmental

Controller.

CHAIR:

Excellent. Thank you.

And

opening remarks.

Ms.

Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Thank you very much.

I don't

usually have opening remarks; I usually start out with the line items. You said

in your introduction something intriguing. You said you're working on pay equity

legislation. Can you elaborate on that?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Donna, do you want to speak

to that?

MS. BALLARD:

Well, of course, there was a motion in the House this session to start that

process about we should be looking at pay equity legislation, so we're

starting now. We're collaborating with the Provincial Advisory Council on the

Status of Women.

At this

point we're doing some jurisdictional scans and some research. Then we'll start

pulling together a departmental committee to look at some options.

MS. PERRY:

What kind of a time frame?

Do you think it will be coming forward to the House this session?

MS. C. BENNETT:

The work that the Women's

Policy Office is doing currently would be the background and research work. When

we have that completed, that work will be provided to the department for the

department's review.

As to a

timeline, I don't have a timeline that I can speak to tonight. Certainly, as we

get clarity as to the volume of work we have to do, we'll have a better idea of

the timeline.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Thanks so much.

I'm

going to start with 2.8.01. In 2016-'17 you actually spent less in your revised

than what you had budgeted. Can you explain why that was?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Just for clarity I want to

make sure you're referencing the $871,000 number?

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Right.

MS. PERRY:

2.8.01.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah.

That

reflects savings from the '16-'17 budget due to position vacancies.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

This

year then, in your new budget, you've allocated $900,000. You anticipate what

changes there?

MS. C. BENNETT:

We're down in the budget

from last year. There's a $79,700 annualization of prior year decisions, there's

a $95,300 zero-based budgeting impact and a $15,800 change to management

structure that are offsetting the $79,700. The $95,300 and the $15,800 offset

the $79,000 to net $31,000.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can we

get an organizational chart for WPO? I know it's not a large entity but it would

be nice to have an organizational chart. Are there any contractual positions

included in those Salaries?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Since it is a small

department, I think with the Member's permission I'm going to ask the deputy to

speak to the org structure right here and she'll provide it for you.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

She'll provide it for you.

MS. PERRY:

Sure.

MS. BALLARD:

Okay.

course, it's myself, as the deputy minister, and there's one administrative

support person. There's a second administrative support person who is also our

information manager. She is actually supported through the Opening Doors

Program.

We have

a financial administrative person who is currently on long-term sick leave.

We're absorbing that work within the organization and with the help of the staff

from the departmental controller.

We have

three management positions: one is the manager of Economic Policy, the second is

the manager of Social Policy and the third is a newly created position of

manager of Violence Prevention. We're hoping to post that very soon. There are

two analyst positions: one is a secondment, but it is backfilled and the second

one is a short-term sick leave which we're hoping to fill in the interim very

shortly.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Do you

have any temporary positions in place over there at the moment?

MS. BALLARD:

No.

MS. PERRY:

No temporaries. Do you have

any 13-weekers over there?

MS. BALLARD:

Pardon me?

MS. PERRY:

Thirteen-weekers?

MS. BALLARD:

No.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

terms of Transportation and oh, no, before I leave Salaries though, I do want

to ask: In terms of the attrition plan, is your department following the 2015

attrition plan?

MS. BALLARD:

We didn't have an attrition

plan as such, but the financial administrative person, when she retires, which

we're expecting within a year, we won't be refilling that position because we're

able to absorb it.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. BALLARD:

I should mention also I

didn't when I talked about the Salaries some of that salary money, $175,000,

is actually for the intimate partner violence prevention unit to pay the

salaries of one RNC officer and one analyst.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Moving

on now to Transportation and Communications, what does this include? From budget

'16 to budget '17 there's a savings of $300, but the zero-based budgeting

documents indicate a savings of $22,900. Could you explain that?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah.

There

was $22,900 under the zero-based budgeting and there was $22,600 re-profiled of

funds based on intended requirements to make sure that it was in the right line

items. So that was the net of $300 that you're seeing.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

terms of Transportation and Communications, what else does that include? What

types of travel are funded under here? Is it just staff travel or do you also

extend some coverage of travel to some of the outside groups for conferences and

that kind of thing?

MS. BALLARD:

The departmental travel

itself, of course, is federal-provincial-territorial travel which is limited.

The minister and myself have a meeting each year and an Atlantic program as

well.

The

majority of it is we host and fund an indigenous women's conference every year.

We do fund for the indigenous women to come together. This year, they have

established a steering committee and they have particular areas that they want

to focus on. We've been helping them and using travel money from last year to

come together to put forward a proposal to the federal government which, if

we're successful, we will continue to build on that. So we will provide the

travel for those women.

We also

fund indigenous women to attend the National Indigenous Women's Summit.

Sometimes, depending on what funding may be available, we also fund to

participate in meetings related to the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and

Girls meetings and so forth. Also, there is some staff travel when we provide

support to companies who are required to do women employment plans. So sometimes

we travel to those regions to provide that support.

We host

economic round tables we just had one but it was in St. John's last week

which brought together trades women and unions to talk about more support they

need in the unions. We're going to be hosting another one on the West Coast next

week which is going to be about trades women over there and where the work is

finishing on Emera. Hopefully, they'll be working on the new infrastructure

project over there. That's the kind of travel that we do.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

If I might, I just wanted to

also add that the officials from the department last year had the opportunity

and it was a purposeful opportunity to visit all of the shelters. Do you want

to talk about that?

MS. BALLARD:

All except Rigolet. We

couldn't get in there because of the weather. But would you like me ?

What we

did is we did a review. We travelled to all of the shelters throughout the

province except, unfortunately, for Rigolet; we weren't able to get in there

just to see and to assess the condition and their needs. As a result of that,

there was increased funding this year through Health and Community Services. We

also have some planning for how we can support them in the future.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

I didn't have the privilege

of visiting them all with you, except for Rigolet, but I was able to get to

Corner Brook and Gander. I was certainly pleased to be briefed on the results of

the visits that took place in Labrador. It's certainly important to get staff to

actually go into the shelters and see.

MS. PERRY:

Yes, absolutely.

I know

from my experience having worked there, there are a lot of issues and funding

constraints, in particular, that, not just the shelters, but some of the other

groups face. So when we get to, I guess, Grants and Subsidies, I want to

elaborate a little bit more as well on some of these, the funding these groups

are receiving and some initiatives around how they can achieve a little bit more

with the money they get.

But

before we get there, Professional Services, what services does WPO use and who

do you purchase the services from generally?

MS. BALLARD:

Professional Services is entirely funding that we give to the RCMP for the

intimate violence prevention unit and they fund an officer and an analyst and

then we do the operational costs as well because of the contract that the

province has with that organization.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. So why last year was

$60,000 not spent?

MS. BALLARD:

It was a vacancy, but they have it filled now.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

terms of the $2,100 that was cut for zero-based budgeting, what impact do you

think that's going to mean for operations?

MS. BALLARD:

The $2,100, that was a little extra that we had in Professional Services over

and above what we were using for the IPV; we weren't using it. We didn't need

any other professional services.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Purchased Services looks like it's cut in half, what is happening here?

MS. C. BENNETT:

That reflects $4,000 that was achieved through the zero-based budgeting and

$22,600 re-profiled. You'll remember when you asked the question about

Transportation and Communications.

MS. PERRY:

Yeah.

MS. C. BENNETT:

I mentioned the number was

put in a different category.

MS. PERRY:

Yeah.

MS. C. BENNETT:

And this is the other side

of that.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

It was put in Purchased

Services to make sure it was accurately reflected in the right Estimates line.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

So now

we're down to Grants and Subsidies. First, I'd like to ask for a list of all the

entities and organizations that get this funding and if I could have a list of

the amount of funding per organization and entity as well.

MS. BALLARD:

I can actually give that to you now.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. BALLARD:

MS. PERRY:

Wait now. Mr. Chair

CHAIR:

Lorraine.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

If I

may point out, Minister, anytime a request is made, can both parties get the

information?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Sure.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Donna's going to give it to

you now; the deputy minister's going to give it to you now if that's okay.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right, yeah.

MS. BALLARD:

We fund 10 regional coordinating committees against violence and each of them

receives $80,000, except for Violence Prevention, Labrador, which receives an

extra $20,000 because of the challenges with travel.

We have

eight Status of Women Councils and they receive $142,625. That is up $15,000

from last year. That's with the increased funding this year.

MS. PERRY:

(Inaudible) operating

budget?

MS. BALLARD:

Yes, an extra $15,000 went in this year.

MS. PERRY:

That's not per council,

that's spread over eight councils?

MS. BALLARD:

No, $15,000 per council.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. BALLARD:

It was increased this year.

MS. PERRY:

They must be some happy.

MS. BALLARD:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Well, I'm sure they'd like

more, but

MS. BALLARD:

The Transition House Association of Newfoundland and Labrador are receiving

$200,000, and they are increased $95,000 from last year.

One of

the things they're doing with that money is they have partnered with Violence

Prevention, Labrador, which is one of our regional coordinating councils I just

discussed, and they're creating and hiring a joint position whose main job is

going to be to help with the transition houses in Labrador; the five transition

houses, but specifically to help with the three on the coast.

There

was also an increase through Health and Community Services in the Rigolet

transition house, which was open two days a week and now because of the funding

for this year, will be open seven days a week. There is a brand new transition

house about to be opened in Hopedale. That was funded through government and the

regional health authority. We are helping them negotiate through Newfoundland

and Labrador Housing with the federal government for funding for a new

transition house in Nain.

This

position will help to coordinate all of that work and help those communities

coordinate together. So that a woman doesn't necessarily have to go to the house

in Rigolet or be transferred to Hopedale but perhaps may go to the other two

Aboriginal communities on the coast. The rest of that money we're hoping will be

used to increase support to all of the transition houses to help them with their

governance, their governing structures and their boards of directors.

We also

fund the Newfoundland and Labrador Sexual Assault and Crisis Prevention Centre,

that's $110,000. We fund the multicultural organization of Newfoundland and

Labrador, $142,600, and that's up from last year. We've increased the funding to

that organization by $42,600. Now we've brought it up to the same level as the

Women's Centre.

New

funding this year for the Safe Harbour Outreach Project, which is a support

group for women in the sex trade industry. They have a number of community

partners but it's work from the St. John's council. They're being provided

$141,700.

We fund

the Newfoundland and Labrador Aboriginal Women's Network, $100,000. We provide

an application based program to support indigenous women grants, $230,000. So

that's been the same. Then we have a small amount of money for miscellaneous in

which we help support some travel or some meetings, that sort of thing. We also

provide funding to the Provincial Advisory Council and the Status of Women,

$418,000.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. I know I'm out of time

but can I ask one quick supplemental here on this one?

little while ago I referred to something I wanted to elaborate on when we got to

grants. When I was working with them back in 2015, a lot of these regional

coordinating meeting committees, particularly those in here on the Avalon, and

the Sexual Assault and Crisis Prevention Centre, they were concerned about tight

budgets and interested in sharing rental space, or acquiring rental space to

share so they could achieve economies of scale and save some money. Where is the

status of that? Is that moving anywhere? Have they had any success with that?

MS. C. BENNETT:

I guess the most appropriate

answer for me to give you is that as the Minister Responsible for the Status of

Women and the Minister Responsible for Finance, I get to learn a lot about

leases and spaces.

I've

asked, and the deputies agreed, to take on as I mentioned in the

preamble a

responsibility of helping coordinate the possibility of a pilot of shared

service spaces for some of these organizations, and the organizations are happy

that we're looking at some type of pilot. It's in the very early stages right

now, and certainly I'm happy to provide updates to both the Official Opposition

Party and Members of the Third Party as soon as we have further clarity on that.

It's something the deputy has taken responsibility and direction from me as the

minister.

Certainly, we're very cognizant of the fact that we can have dollars that are

going into community organizations, going into supporting people versus

supporting multiple rents and multiple all kinds of fees that they have to pay

someone.

MS. PERRY:

Absolutely. Of course, the

synergies they achieve from working together and sharing their staff resources.

That would be great to see that happen.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Perry.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much, Chair.

Minister, just to ask this upfront with regard to the briefing books, may we

expect to get your briefing books? Thank you very much, because that

MS. C. BENNETT:

We have those for everybody

for tonight.

MS. MICHAEL:

Good enough. That cuts down

on how many notes we have to take, et cetera, as you know.

Thank

you. I appreciate that.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Sorry, Ms. Michael, if I

might. Donna can provide a written document of the information that she shared

orally.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MS. C. BENNETT:

We'll provide that in

follow-up in the future.

MS. MICHAEL:

Great. Thank you.

I don't

repeat questions, but there are a couple of cases where I need to get some

clarification because I may not have quite understood what you were saying. With

regard to the positions, is there still a vacancy? I know one was long-term sick

leave, but is there still a vacancy?

MS. C. BENNETT:

I'll speak to that.

The

manager that the deputy spoke to that would be responsible for work in the

violence prevention area; that position had to be classified. In following up

with HRS last week, the classification has concluded and that position will be

posted. It is currently vacant, but it is our intention and has always been our

intention to fill that position.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

We're eager to do so and

look forward to getting that done as quickly as we can.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, great. So I was

correct but it's in action.

Thank

you very much.

With

regard to the partner violence initiative, I know the deputy minister did give

an amount but I didn't quite get it, the money that goes to the intimate partner

violence initiative.

MS. BALLARD:

All of the Professional

Services budget.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MS. BALLARD:

So that's the $233,000.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MS. BALLARD:

And $175,000 of the Salaries

budget and $15,000 of the Purchased Services budget.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

That's

all going to be in the briefing book, so if we can get that to keep those

details.

MS. BALLARD:

Sure.

MS. C. BENNETT:

We'll make sure you have

that information because I'm not sure it's identified the way that you're

describing it.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Ms. Ballard can provide some

information to make sure you have that clarity.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

Then, I

have a similar question to the Violence Prevention Initiative, the amount. Is

that under Professional Services or is that under Grants and Subsidies?

MS. BALLARD:

I'm looking at the departmental controller, sorry, who may be able to help me.

It's my understanding it's included in all of the lines.

MS. MICHAEL:

Oh, okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Ms. Michael, last year we

had a discussion around the Women's Policy Office funding. If you look

historically at the dollars on a consolidated basis, overall basis for this

office, there were some pretty significant swings in the last couple of years.

One of

the decisions that we've made is to limit and restrict the efforts around mass

marketing for violence prevention. Not because education is not important, but

some of the dollars that were spent in the past we felt weren't necessarily the

right focus.

We feel

it's very important for the officials from the department to work very much with

the community organizations. I would say that the work we've been able to do in

the last year to get to a place where we can say things like Rigolet will be

open 24 hours, seven days a week, is a result of that work and effort of

engaging on the ground with community organizations.

The

other thing with the Violence Prevention Initiative is the work that I mentioned

in the

preamble. Working with Justice on legislative pieces that may be

appropriate for us to look at as a government is equally important. Certainly,

having a deputy with Ms. Ballard's background in law also helps us. She's had

very productive meetings with representatives of a variety of organizations

including, as an example, the Federation of Labour, who have provided us some

feedback on some legislative changes and regulatory changes they think might be

appropriate.

We'll

continue to look for ways of legislatively and the community and through the

educations system. We also presented information to the Premier's Task Force for

the Violence Prevention Initiative of government and some suggestions for them

to consider as part of the curriculum. The officials in the department did a lot

of work last year on identifying what could be done to improve and add value,

and also add results to the efforts of reducing violence in our community when

we know we have significant challenges to deal with.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you, Minister, for

that explanation. I mean, obviously, I totally agree with the way in which

things are going because I think it has to be the way that you are describing,

so the direct working with agencies, departments and community on the ground to

really get change to happen.

I had

many questions about the in the past, it's not there now whole stuff around

the mass marketing because I don't think that's very effective. I'll be

interested it's probably too early for you to give a sense to see how we

will be able to evaluate on the ground how the new approach is working.

Certainly, having a place like in Rigolet I've been to Rigolet many times and

I know its history around violence, et cetera. To have a shelter there open

seven days a week is so important, really important. I'm really glad to hear of

this approach. I think it's very important.

I have

some other questions here. With regard to the government departments and this

is not around violence, this is around gender-based analysis what training has

been done with departments around gender-based analysis?

MS. C. BENNETT:

I'm going to let the deputy

speak. She can also provide some texture as to things the department has

undertaken in the last year in addition to training.

MS. BALLARD:

There is gender-based analysis training. We adopt, on our website, the Status of

Women Canada.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MS. BALLARD:

And we've also gone out to departments and done training on the ground.

We're

going to do more of it. That's, I guess, one of our to-do lists for this year.

We do actually have a new analyst that's just recently joined us who we think

will be very co-operative in that. So we've done that, but we continue to do it

because we receive every Cabinet paper. We've done very well in the last year in

making connections with departments so they know to call us first.

We also

sit on a number of horizontal committees, for example, so that we're providing

that advice. We continue to do that on a day-to-day basis and our collaborations

with departments are increasing. We are finding now we're getting calls earlier

than when the papers are done. I think that partnerships are developing very

well.

MS. MICHAEL:

Good. Thank you.

The

Violence Prevention Initiative, is the prevalence survey finished?

MS. BALLARD:

No, we're still working on that.

MS. MICHAEL:

Still working on it. Okay.

With

regard to training, again, under the Violence Prevention Initiative, which

community organizations are you working directly with, with the training of

community organizations?

MS. BALLARD:

The VAAT, the Violence

Awareness.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MS. BALLARD:

We just actually very recently launched an up-to-date revised set of materials.

We worked with our community partners, our regional coordinating councils, which

are actually rebranding themselves as Violence Prevention Labrador according to

their regions because they're coordinating and working together more.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MS. BALLARD:

They're the trainers and

then in their communities, they go out into the communities, seniors homes, high

schools, College of the North Atlantic, wherever they find a need and deliver

the training there.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Does

that involve schools as well?

MS. BALLARD:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

Are you

directly involved with the restorative justice organization with regard to the

project that's going on in schools?

MS. BALLARD:

I mean we're certainly aware

of the project. I know the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women is

very much involved. We support that.

also, as the minister indicated with the Premier's Task Force, submitted and we

encouraged our partners to submit as well. Part of the submissions that we made

is encouraging the restorative justice model.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

I know

that you're doing a lot of work with regard to gender equity and employment

plans with employers. I think WRDC is probably working along with you in some of

that.

Could

we just have a bit of detail about how that's going? Are you getting new

employers involved, et cetera? Does it involve smaller employers and not just

the large ones? I think initially larger corporations were taking part. Is it

also getting to smaller workplaces?

MS. BALLARD:

Yeah, we're doing very well

with that. Because of the benefits agreements, we are working with the big

projects.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MS. BALLARD:

We're very successful with

the medium-to-small companies because under our

Environmental Assessment Act , when

there's a project of any kind and there's a requirement to come in under

environmental assessment, we're very fortunate to have legislation that talks

about economic and social development and benefits.

All of

those environmental assessment requirements come to our office. When we look at

those and find there's enough employment opportunity that a women's employment

plan is required, then we require a women's employment plan.

Just

recently this year as well, we partnered with the three other Atlantic provinces

and we released a guide to gender diversity in the workplace.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MS. BALLARD:

We have also provided a template so that when employers come and they don't know

what to do, what does this look like? We're able to provide them with a guide

and a template and support.

As the

minister indicated in The Way Forward ,

we've also been successful in requiring women's employment plans on

government-funded infrastructure projects. So we're working with Transportation

and Works right now on that.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Sorry,

Minister, did you have more to ?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes, just on the

infrastructure spending for the provincial government. That infrastructure plan

is about $3.8 billion over five years, and certainly on some of the larger

projects it was really important for us to make sure that what the expectations

were of the private sector were being reflected from government's infrastructure

spending as well. We'll continue to work to make sure that continues to happen.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Could I

just ask one follow-up question to that?

CHAIR:

Sure.

MS. MICHAEL:

With regard to the new

policy around procurement, I'm assuming this would be one of the principles that

would be in play in not just going with the lowest bid.

MS. C. BENNETT:

The regulations under the

new procurement act are currently being drafted and finalized. As I mentioned in

my

preamble, Women's Policy Office is engaged in that process.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MS. C. BENNETT:

I know Service NL has had a

variety of meetings in addition to organizations that you've already mentioned.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Other organizations like

NLOWE would also have feedback and that is being provided, so that in the

drafting of the regulations we can look to see what opportunities are there to

continue to support gender equity.

MS. MICHAEL:

Great.

Thank

you very much, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Ms.

Perry, any further questions?

MS. PERRY:

I do. I have some, not too,

too many.

According to the budget material, Budget

2017 commits $250,000 to establish the Sexual Assault Response Pilot

Program. It's found under both Justice and WPO in the promotional material, but

is this funding new or is it the $250,000 profile using resources already in the

system, and where can we find it in the Estimates?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah. So that is not money

that sits in the Women's Policy Office. That's money that the Department of

Justice and the Minister of Justice has been very successful in working with his

federal counterparts to provide funding for that.

We can

provide some clarity from the Department of Justice. I can follow up with them

if you'd like, Ms. Perry, but my understanding is that's housed in Justice as an

inflow from the federal government then an outflow into the community.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

there any funding in this budget to advance women apprentices? In 2016-2017,

there's a line item for $200,000. Is that somewhere in ?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah, I don't have that

information in the Women's Policy Office budget. I would suggest that question

is more appropriate for the Minister of Advanced Education.

MS. PERRY:

AES.

MS. C. BENNETT:

AES, yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Believe

it or not, I'm down to my last question.

Does

the Women's Policy Office take summer students or work term students?

MS. BALLARD:

Yes, we take all. We do take work term students. We just had a work term student

finish up.

The

summer, actually, I just reach out to the Law Society. We're hoping to get a

first year law student this year to help us do some work around pay equity

legislation and domestic violence legislation.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Thanks

so much.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much, Ms.

Perry.

Ms.

Michael, any further questions?

MS. MICHAEL:

No, I have no more

questions. I have them but the answers are going to be in the briefing book so

I'm not going to use up the time.

CHAIR:

Sorry, Minister, concluding

remarks?

MS. C. BENNETT:

I'll let you do the vote and

then I'll have a last comment.

CHAIR:

Sorry, Mr. Hutchings.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Just a general question. You

mentioned earlier in regard to Rigolet and some much needed infrastructure. The

federal government has referenced the fact that for First Nations and indigenous

peoples there are different programs and funding identified across the country.

Are there avenues here to leverage additional dollars for some of that

programming that you've talked about?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes. I'll answer that in two

parts and then I'll ask the deputy minister to add some comments.

The

federal government has provided funding through Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corp for some of the transition shelters for capital construction. The

funding that the federal government has for indigenous communities, some of the

indigenous groups need some additional support from us, and the Women's Policy

Office is providing that support to them so we can take advantage of those

grants.

You can

be assured that we're doing everything we can to make sure we get every cent we

can from the federal government for the indigenous communities in Newfoundland

and Labrador.

Ms.

Ballard, do you want to add anything specific?

MS. BALLARD:

No, nothing specific. We're hoping, actually we're very hopeful that there is

going to be some funding coming down very soon for some infrastructure in those

communities.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

The Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing money is that 100-cent dollars or is it leverage money?

MS. C. BENNETT:

In last year's federal

budget there was an amount of money that was provided across the country related

to transition facilities, and that money is in Housing to be disbursed amongst

some of the houses in Newfoundland. The indigenous money is something separate

from that.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

The Housing money, I think

it came from CMHC, but the Status of Women federally championed that. The

indigenous money comes from a different department.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. Thank you.

CHAIR:

That's all, Mr. Hutchings?

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yeah.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Any

concluding remarks, Minister?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Other than just to say a

thank you again to the staff. The Women's Policy Office, I would suggest and I

can proudly say, punch above their weight to some degree. They do a tremendous

amount of work. They've accomplished a lot as a team in the last year under some

pretty challenging circumstances in the context of the volume of work that we

want to get done.

I'd

like to congratulate Donna and her team back in the office for the work that

they've done. I'm sure the Members of the Committee would join me in thanking

them for their preparation for the Estimates tonight.

MS. PERRY:

Absolutely, we do. You do

very special work and heart wrenching in many cases, so hats off to you. Keep it

up, great work.

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

I also want to say a special

thank you. It's really good, Minister, to see more money being put in to meet

the needs of women in this province. I'm excited about the work that's

happening.

somebody who worked in this area for a number of years, it's good to hear some

of the things that came out tonight, especially around women's employment in

trades. That is something that's very close to my heart as I think you're

probably aware. We've just got to keep forging ahead. Thank you very much.

I'm not

surprised that the Women's Policy Office is punching above its weight and

working so intensely because that's the nature of women's work unfortunately. We

always have to be doing it.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.8.01 carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Against?

Carried.

motion, subhead 2.8.01 carried.

CLERK:

2.8.02.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.8.02 carry?

Minister.

MS. C. BENNETT:

For the Members of the

Committee, this is the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women. I

think Ms. Ballard had referenced already the grant for the Provincial Advisory

Council on the Status of Women when she listed the grants that we provide. This

one has a stand-alone heading in the

Estimates . It's consistent with the amount that has been spent in prior

years.

I don't

know if there are any questions.

CHAIR:

Ms. Perry.

MS. PERRY:

I already asked my questions

sort of intermingled.

CHAIR:

Excellent. Okay.

Ms.

Michael, no?

Mr.

Hutchings.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

No, I'm good.

CHAIR:

Excellent.

2.8.02.

Shall

2.8.02 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 2.8.02 carried.

motion, Women's Policy Office, total heads, carried.

CHAIR:

Excellent. Thank you.

We'll

take a short break, and when we come back we'll begin with the Human Resource

Secretariat.

Recess

CHAIR:

Okay, Human Resource

Secretariat, 3.1.01.

Minister.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Thanks.

I'm

going to turn the

preamble, with the Committee's permission, over to the deputy.

This particular department has undergone some significant changes in last year's

budget and some that are reflected in this year's budget.

I think

it's probably best to let the deputy provide a bit of an overview of that, as

opposed to trying to find it as we go through. I'm sure you'll see it as we go

through, but we do want to provide a little bit of oversight.

I'll

let the officials introduce themselves and then I'll ask the deputy minister,

Geoff Williams, to take over and provide you with some of the structural changes

that have happened in the department.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

Before

you begin, I forgot to mention in the beginning just to identify yourself each

time you speak for the Broadcast Centre. As you're all nodding in agreement,

you're all very much aware.

MS. C. BENNETT:

It's only the minister that

doesn't know that.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much.

MR. WILLIAMS:

Geoff Williams, Deputy

Minister.

MS. FOLLETT:

Tina Follett, Assistant

Deputy Minister, Compensation, Benefits and Staffing.

MR. JOYCE:

George Joyce, Assistant

Deputy Minister, Labour Relations.

MS. MUNDON:

Tansy Mundon, Director of

Communications.

MR. STANLEY:

Todd Stanley, Special

Counsel.

MS. TRICKETT:

Wanda Trickett, Departmental

Controller.

MR. WILLIAMS:

Thank you, Minister, for the

opportunity to review the structure and put a bit of context around the

discussion this evening.

HRS

started planning for restructuring in 2015. The first part of that restructuring

commenced in 2016. The plan for restructuring for the Human Resource Secretariat

was outlined to be a multi-year plan. It was going to cover '16-'17, '17-'18

and, as well, '18-'19. As I talk a little bit about it, it will become a bit

clearer why it is a multi-year plan.

Our

first change was in 2016 when we moved to changing the mandate for the Centre

for Learning and Development. That mandate became one of focusing on

compliance-based learning and legislatively required training, as well, with a

significant emphasis on technology assistance to actually facilitate that

training versus solely in-the-classroom-based training.

With

respect to the restructuring of the Human Resource Secretariat, you will note

that there were three branches under the former structure. That has now changed

to two branches. Tina and George have introduced themselves. They're

respectively responsible for each one of the branches.

The

change, by way of context, is a reduction of approximately 48 per cent senior

managers within the Human Resource Secretariat and, as well, an overall

reduction of 72 positions through that three year.

Now, in

terms of my prior comment, in terms of why it was a multi-year approach, the

order of magnitude of the change we are embarking on required a phased in

transition kind of approach to ensure we were still are able to provide

efficient effective services to the clients we represent.

You

will note as we go through the material there are some new divisions within the

Human Resource Secretariat that were previously not there. There are some

changes in some that were there that are no longer. For example, there's been a

new division created of Executive Client and Consulting Services. We can

elaborate a bit on that as we go through. There is, as well, a dedicated

division with respect to Employee Safety and Wellness. As well, there's a

foundational component of a service centre with a multi-part layered approach to

addressing employee and employer concerns.

well, a change from last year to this year, French Services was previously

housed with the Human Resource Secretariat. It is no longer with the Human

Resource Secretariat, which is certainly not a function of the importance or

relevance of that particular service; however, it was felt, from the

restructured Human Resource Secretariat perspective, it was better aligned with

the Service Newfoundland and Labrador. So that's why it's not in our structure.

Those are some four changes right there that are easily to reflect on.

April

19 was the most recent change with respect to implementing the second part of

our structure and that actually seen the reduction from three branches to two

with the significant change in management structure as I just talked about.

I'd

like to try and put some context around the Estimates that we have here in front

of us, which will highlight some of the complexities that our controller has had

to deal with and our financial folks.

We've

essentially moved from nine activity centres to 12. So what that has actually

required to be completed by the finance folks is prior to going forward with our

budget this year, knowing that our structure was changing in a multi-faceted

approach, our finance folks had to essentially look back and take the original

budget that we were prescribed and say how do we now roll that over 12 activity

centres versus nine. So essentially overlay that budget that was provided to us

over the new structure, and as well the same exercise then with respect to the

projected revised.

So one

of the challenges that we faced in trying to present this in as clear and crisp

manner is that given we moved from nine to 12 activity centres, that involved a

movement of staff, it involved a movement of operating budgets so there was a

very tedious process of trying to determine how much of each operating budget

went to the new activity centres. In some cases that was very clear. In others

it was a bit more of a challenge in terms of how we were able to do that. That

was one of the challenges, I will note, in terms of moving forward.

Even an

example of how staff were being assigned to new activity centres and new

divisions, that required a best guest as to we knew the classification that

would be in the new division, but not necessarily what step salary the incumbent

would be at. So in terms of do we budget or move a salary over at a step 25 or

is that step 2? So this is our best, and where we are now a new structure this

is one of the challenges we've faced in terms of how we've actually captured the

data.

With

respect to we've noted a number of the changes in terms of dollar values and

variances. We've noticed those as being attributable to zero-based budgeting. I

think I just want to highlight that given this has been a multi-year approach to

a transition of Human Resource Secretariat, there is a component there of

zero-based budgeting, but there's also, from a savings perspective, the

annualization of changes that were previously enacted to facilitate a new

structure, which combined with the zero-based exercise. So as we go through we

can address any questions that arise. We just wanted to note in terms of the

presentation of the material.

MS. C. BENNETT:

I'd ask Geoff just to

clarify for a second when he gets a chance to get a glass of water. When he

mentioned the consolidated change in management and the number of positions, I

think you mentioned 48 per cent, was it, reduction in management?

MR. WILLIAMS:

In senior management.

MS. C. BENNETT:

In senior management, and

that's over how many years?

MR. WILLIAMS:

In terms of the change of managers, in large part that was in bulk imposed this

particular year, Minister.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Right.

So the

Members of the Committee and I'm sure you already have, I can imagine that

you've already done this work. If you look to the total spend for the department

you would see that it's down from $20,200,000 down to $17,900,000, a difference

of $2.3 million, and that French Services would have moved out of this

department as a whole.

I just

wanted to point that out as a flag. I'm sure the Members of the Committee have

already looked at that but I just wanted to call it out. So I turn it back to

you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

Mr.

Hutchings.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If I

could, I'd just ask Mr. Williams to provide some information here and put some

context just to clarify. So the 48 senior management positions, are they out

now, taken out this current year; or was it over a period of time, with the

transition?

MR. WILLIAMS:

Mr. Hutchings, with respect

to the change, it was 48 per cent, just to clarify, not 48 positions

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Oh, percent; I am sorry.

MR. WILLIAMS:

Forty-eight per cent, sorry,

just to clarify that.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yes.

So 48

per cent of the senior management have been transferred out somewhere else or

the positions have been eliminated; I just need to understand.

MR. WILLIAMS:

In large part, the positions

have been eliminated.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MR. WILLIAMS:

In some cases, we

re-profiled a small number of those, so we changed them from directors to

managers. But, for the most part, those positions have been abolished from the

organization.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

And from a reorganization

point of view that 48 per cent is done pretty well, is it?

MR. WILLIAMS:

That would be correct.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

You

mentioned classifications. Obviously, as you just said, in terms of moving some

of those positions around, they would require reclassification as well. So

that's done as well; is that correct?

MR. WILLIAMS:

In large part, yes, that's

correct.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

So 48

per cent and you also used the number 72 was that 72 positions? What was the

72 again?

MR. WILLIAMS:

That is the 72 positions

that have been eliminated from the HRS structure that will be eliminated at the

point of conclusion. As I mentioned, next year that will be the final phase.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

there a connection between the 48 per cent and the 72? Is the 48 per cent 72

positions or ?

MR. WILLIAMS:

Of the 72 positions being

eliminated, the 48 per cent represents the actual change in senior management

level positions of the 72.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

The 72

would have both senior level and others as well?

MR. WILLIAMS:

That would be correct.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Sorry, if I might, I'd

remind the Members of the Committee that last year when we were in Estimates we

had discussions around some of the decisions that were made in last year's

budget that would have impacted the department. Some of those decisions were

based on operational improvements and operational efficiency, and that's one of

the reasons why we wanted to make sure that the assistant deputy team was here

tonight to provide some texture as to what those operational changes were.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Sure, thanks.

Minister, you indicated in regard to the total at the end there was a $2.3

million less. Is that all related to French Services coming out? No?

MS. C. BENNETT:

No, I don't have the

information with me right here. I'm not sure if Wanda has, but I don't have the

information on French Services. That $2.3 million comparison from last year to

this year you'd also have to take out the French Services which moved out of the

department altogether. As Members of the House would know, Minister Trimper is

the minister responsible for Service NL and he's the minister responsible for

French Services, so it made sense for him to have that close to him for proper

oversight.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. Thank you.

I know

last year and I mentioned this earlier in the prior session you talked about

650 FTEs and 200 were in core public service. Some of the numbers we're talking

about here, would they be factored in as FTEs in that 200 number from last year?

MS. C. BENNETT:

From last year? Some of

those would be.

Geoff,

do you want to speak to that?

Mr.

Hutchings, just for clarity, the document I would have shared with you earlier

this week, which was the reconciliation of that

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yeah.

MS. C. BENNETT:

would have had numbers on there that would have reflected the actions that the

department would have taken in last fiscal year.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

It may include some of

these.

MS. C. BENNETT:

May include some of those.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. Thank you.

If we

could, I'll just go to some line items here to begin. At 3.1.01, if you look at

the salary change, there was an initial estimate last year, it rose to a

revision and this year there's a considerable reduction in that. I'm just

wondering if you could give some commentary on that.

MS. C. BENNETT:

That would have reflected

the savings that would have been identified through the zero-based budgeting

process which was part of the one of the items that Mr. Williams mentioned was

the restructuring.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yes.

MS. C. BENNETT:

That would have been the

shifting in the Salaries that would have been saved.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Do you want to add anything,

Geoff?

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yeah, so basically what

you're telling me is the reorganization from nine to 12, was it, we went?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah, so just maybe just in

paraphrasing what the deputy has already said, we went from nine divisions to 12

at the same time as we shrunk the overall spend. The numbers in each line item,

particularly around Salaries, as individuals were changed and moved, or if an

ADM position was eliminated, things like that, they would be reflected in this.

It's going to be hard to track identically the last year.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yeah. Sure.

MS. C. BENNETT:

And that's one of the

reasons why I want to make sure that the deputy had a chance to kind of describe

the structure of the department, because it's changed significantly from what it

was two years ago.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

I'll

just ask this question I have here and you've probably answered it already, but

I'll just ask it. If you go back and look at last year's Estimates, the number

that was used then for the estimate I think say for example, Salaries was

$790,300, this year that estimate is $812,600. So that would be due to the

revision, I guess, of Salaries moving back and forth?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Sorry, I'm not following.

Are you still at 3.1 ?

MR. HUTCHINGS:

At 3.1.01, Salaries.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

If you looked at the budget

document from 2016 under Salaries, it would have gave an estimate of $790,300.

If you look at the 2016-2017 document this year and budget, it says $812,600, so

there's a difference in the two. The estimate has been changed from what was

last year to what's put in this year, but I guess that's reorganization of

Salaries and those types of things?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Sorry, before I provide an

answer I just want to make sure I clearly understand. The restated original

budget for '16-'17 of $812,000, Wanda, do you want to speak to it?

MS. TRICKETT:

Yes, you are correct. The

difference is last year in the 2016-'17

Estimates book it states what the original budget was intended to be.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yes.

MS. TRICKETT:

And what you're seeing this

year at $812,600 is reflective of the restatement of the reorganization.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

During the year, right.

MS. TRICKETT:

Yes.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. We'll see that from

time to time as we go through?

MS. TRICKETT:

You will see that a lot,

yes.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

I guess instead of asking it

all the way through, it's just that it is reorganization of the envelope from

what you've done in restructuring.

MS. TRICKETT:

Correct.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

That's

all I have on 3.1.01.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Hutchings.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

I'm sorry, I was being

distracted here.

really don't want to go through every single salary head and ask questions about

it because of what you've described. We know that 72 positions are eliminated,

so all the differences there that we see are the reflection of the reorganizing

and the loss of the position. There's no sense going through every single head

and asking because it seems to me you've got different positions, different

names, et cetera. Is that correct?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's accurate?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Absolutely. As the

controller just mentioned, the restated original budgets were to take last

year's

MS. MICHAEL:

Oh, I understand restatement

of the budget, yeah. I understand that you can't go back and look because it's

going to be restated.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's not a problem for me

at all.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Okay.

MS. MICHAEL:

With regard to the 72

eliminated positions, I'm assuming that there were individuals in those

positions. How many actual people are no longer working in the system because of

the loss of the 72 positions?

MR. WILLIAMS:

Ms. Michael, in terms of that, I can get you that specific information. We still

have a couple left to do.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. WILLIAMS:

I can certainly get you the information to date of which ones have vacancies and

which ones had incumbents in it. I can certainly do that.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you very much.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Ms. Michael, I'm not sure, I

don't remember the other day; I shared some information with Mr. Hutchings

around the FTEs from last year based on a question that he had asked. I don't

think I'm assuming it would have been tabled but I don't know if you've

received it.

We'll

provide you with that information as well because it reflects the information we

shared in the budget last year about the FTE impacts. So we'll give you that

same information.

MS. MICHAEL:

If that's the information

you tabled based on his questions, yes, we have all that information.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Okay.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yeah. Thank you very much.

With

regard again to the 72 positions and in terms of elimination and vacancies, are

there any I'm just doing it across the board now because it just seems to be

the better way to do it. Are there any vacancies right now that aren't filled?

MR. WILLIAMS:

Yes, there would be some vacancies. A minimum number, though, that are not

filled. We're certainly intently trying to fill those, given our reduced

structure and size.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right. Thank you very much.

Okay,

so let's move on then. Coming down to 3.1.02, I'm just going to pick on numbers

that are significant. Under Professional Services, the budget is $171,600 and it

was underspent by $27,000 approximately. Then it's going down again this year.

What was the change in the Professional Services for this loss of money in that

line?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Ms. Michael, I just want to

confirm that we're on the same number.

MS. MICHAEL:

3.1.02.

MS. C. BENNETT:

And your question is related

to the changes in Professional Services?

MS. MICHAEL:

Professional Services, yes.

MS. C. BENNETT:

The Professional Services

change and the projected revised reflects an overrun from the '16-'17 budget due

to higher than anticipated investigations.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MS. C. BENNETT:

And the $28,300, which is

the difference in the Professional Services budget for '17-'18, reflects a

decrease in the budget as identified under the zero-based budgeting.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. So it's not that any

services that are needed are going to be lost because of this.

Thank

you very much.

And

you're correct, I said it was under by $27,100 but it was over by $27,100.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Right.

MS. MICHAEL:

So that's why I confused

you, I think.

With

regard to the Purchased Services, here we do see a big jump upwards in the

Estimates for this year in relation to the estimate in the budget for last year,

so $68,800 more. What do you see happening under Purchased Services?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah. When the department

would have undergone zero-based budgeting, if there were items that were

identified and certainly in this department's case with the significant reorg,

if there were items that were not identified as being allocated to a certain

line item, it would have increased the budget. In this case, that's what

happened with this particular number, $68,000. It was identified that these were

expenses in zero-based budgeting when we looked at it that should have been

allocated to this particular heading.

MS. MICHAEL:

Oh, got it. Okay. Thank you.

Coming

down to a lot of my questioning was going to be about the Salaries, but I

don't have to do that now. I'm not going to question small amounts, but under

3.1.03, the Purchased Services, there's a drop in the Purchased Services there.

Is that because of zero-based budgeting? It's a drop of $2,500.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Okay. Yes, that would have

been zero-based budgeting.

Geoff,

did you want to add anything?

MR. WILLIAMS:

No, that's correct.

MS. C. BENNETT:

No?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yeah, okay. Thank you very

much.

Coming

over, then, to 3.1.05.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Mr. Chair, I'm wondering as

we go through if we could maybe do the pages. It's much easier to do

(inaudible).

MS. MICHAEL:

Pardon?

MR. HUTCHINGS:

I'm just wondering as we go

through and do two subheadings on each page and maybe approve that (inaudible).

MS. MICHAEL:

Sure. Okay.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

It's just tough going back

and forth.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. It's fine with me, Mr.

Chair, if that's what we want to do.

CHAIR:

It certainly makes sense, I

guess. Again, my first time, please bear with me here as Chair.

Typically, my understanding was by subhead. So for 3.1 we wouldn't vote until we

got to 3.2.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

(Inaudible) to follow. If

you go ahead two or three subheadings, then you have to come back.

CHAIR:

Sure.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So it's just much easier.

CHAIR:

No, for ease of the process

and staff and everyone following.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

I just have one question on

3.1.02, Lorraine, if that's okay.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's fine. Why don't I

stop and you go up to 3.2 up to 04.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yeah.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Okay, excellent.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

3.1.02, Employee Relations,

the Professional Services there, is that related to negotiations, that heading,

or would that be under another heading in terms of public service or hiring

resources for that or outside resources?

MS. C. BENNETT:

No.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

No.

MS. C. BENNETT:

No.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

That's just related to

arbitration, mediation, investigation, those types of activities.

MR. WILLIAMS:

That would be correct.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

I think

I'm fine with that.

CHAIR:

That's all for you for

3.1.02?

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

I have another question with

regard to 3.1.04. Can I go on to that?

CHAIR:

If we'll move on, then

that's fine. So we'll do 3.1.03 to 3.1.04 inclusive.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

CHAIR:

There you are, Ms. Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

My question has to do with

the job evaluations, the JES reviews. I think in May last year there were 730

that were outstanding. What is the status now of the job reviews?

MR. JOYCE:

You're talking about the

JES?

MS. MICHAEL:

JES, yes.

MR. JOYCE:

JES classification

outstanding is 472.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

How

long is it estimated that this list can be brought down even more?

MR. JOYCE:

Ms. Michael, we're working

very diligently on those on a daily basis, bearing in mind the staff we have.

We're trying to turn them over within a three-month period as a rotation. The

direct result of the JES that was implemented last year, we see a reduction now,

a decrease in the number that's coming in under the JES. So we're trying to deal

with the ones we have on the books right now.

MS. MICHAEL:

May I ask, Minister, are

these reviews identified within departments or identified by HR Secretariat?

MR. WILLIAMS:

To add to what Mr. Joyce

just indicated there, in terms of the JES process with respect to those reviews,

we are further to George's comments, Mr. Joyce's comments attempting to

streamline how we do that. The documentation involved in a review, as a minimal

it's a very lengthy document, probably 50-plus pages of documentation which is a

very manual, tedious exercise to review it.

order to get that timeline down in terms of completing a review, we are working

through and trying to work through some additional lean concepts to see if we

can shave that time off, recognizing that the impact on an individual waiting

for a review could be significant from stress on the individual in the

workplace. So we are moving forward with that, trying to see as best we can to

scale down the process to see how we can do it.

I'm

sorry, Ms. Michael, I didn't understand quite the last question you had with

respect to the reviews, the HRS. Sorry.

MS. MICHAEL:

The reviews that have to be

done, are they identified within a department and passed to you or are you the

ones who are identifying reviews that need to be done?

MR. WILLIAMS:

There can be a number of ways a review would be done. It could be submitted

through a department and an employee to Human Resource Secretariat. The numbers

that Mr. Joyce indicated, those are ones actually in the possession of Human

Resource Secretariat and are actively being worked on. That would be the process

that would be followed. It's initiated either by the employee or by the

supervisor or manager who may feel there's a need for a review to occur.

As I

say, that's the number; those are the ones we have within our possession and

actively working on.

MS. MICHAEL:

One more question: About how

many come in over a year?

MR. WILLIAMS:

George, do you have any stats?

MR. JOYCE:

I can say that approximately 70 per cent of the requests for JES or 70 per

cent of the 472 were the result of JES.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. JOYCE:

Would that answer your question?

MS. MICHAEL:

I'm just wondering on a

yearly basis how many new ones come in.

MR. JOYCE:

I can't directly answer that question but I can get that information for you in

terms of on an annual basis. Is that fair?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, thank you very much.

Okay,

Chair, I'll turn it over to Mr. Hutchings now.

CHAIR:

That's all for you on 3.1.03

to 3.1.04.

Mr.

Hutchings.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay, thank you.

3.1.03,

the salary provision there on that one from what was budgeted last year, the

revision was down and then it was down again for the estimate for this year,

'17-'18.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes, the decrease in the

projected revised budget reflects a savings due to a vacancy. It's just over

$19,000.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

In the '17-'18 number, that

reflects a decrease as identified under zero-based budgeting. And again, any

salary savings that would have been driven from the restructuring, et cetera,

would have been either allocated to annualization of last year's initiatives or

zero-based budgeting and that's what you're seeing here.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

3.1.04,

in the Salaries again there's a little over $400,000. Is that related to

specific job reductions and the numbers we talked about earlier?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Do you want to take that

one?

MR. WILLIAMS:

It is related to job

reductions in the sense that was specifically a component of money that was set

aside to assist with the job of cleaning up or making some end roads on the

reviews associated with the Job Evaluation System.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MR. WILLIAMS:

So that was one-time money

which had been allocated to assist with that particular project.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Just on that note, I know

last year in Estimates we asked for an update, and I think there were 730 that

were left at that point in time. And I think the commentary was by the end of

2016, the last quarter, we should be okay, but I think the update now is that

there are 472 that are left.

You're

indicating that special funding that was put in place last year to deal with

those has now been removed, so I'm just wondering, going forward, how we're

going to meet the objective and deal with these. It seems from last year, the

plan respectively hasn't met its target so how are we going to deal with what's

left there on the books?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Just for clarity, I think

the assistant deputy minister mentioned that of the 400 plus that are remaining,

only about 70 per cent of them are related to JES.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

As the deputy minister has

already indicated there is ongoing work from last year to this year to review

the process and try to streamline through the administrative functions.

I had

the opportunity last year, when I became minister, to tour the unit that was

doing this work and had extensive conversations with the employees that were

working there at that time on the process they were using. The department

undertook in the last 12 or 18 months a continuous improvement effort to try to

lean the process so that it would provide us the ability to do the last portion

of the JES faster than the first series were done when the JES was originally

brought in.

We're

optimistic that, based on what we've learned in the last year, we'll continue to

be able to work through these in a timely way, respecting the fact that

employees are certainly owed and expect an answer as quickly as possible. We

intend to do what we can to get those answers to them.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So roughly it would be about

350 JES that are left, that's 70 per cent?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yeah.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So the new process, or some

of, I guess, the efficiencies that you identified that you could do, are they in

place now and you're working through those?

MS. C. BENNETT:

And continuing to improve.

If there's a process that's identified by officials in the department that will

help speed things up, they'll continue to look at that.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay, thank you.

That's

good for me on 3.1.04.

CHAIR:

Okay.

As we

agreed, I guess, to go a page at a time, I'll call the vote from 3.1.01 to

3.1.04 inclusive.

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.1.01 through 3.1.04 carried.

CHAIR:

Okay, 3.1.05.

Mr.

Hutchings.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay, thank you.

CHAIR:

Oh, sorry, 3.1.05 through

3.1.06.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. Thank you.

Just on

the Salaries one again, there's a reduction of approximately $546,000 compared

to 2016-2017. Again, could you give some feedback on whether that's related to

specific job reductions we may have spoken on earlier?

MR. WILLIAMS:

In terms of that reduction, it's a combination of a couple of things. It's a

combination of the reorganization within the Human Resource Secretariat which is

a commentary which would have applied to other changes that have occurred, and

as well, it is a reflection of the new revised mandate of the CLD which does

involve some position eliminations. Some of those 72 are captured here within

the Centre for Learning and Development as well.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So this would be one of the

headings that in your original commentary you talked about that was being

restructured and technology was being used to advance. Is this the one?

MR. WILLIAMS:

It is the same division, but indeed, yes, we are using more of a technology

based.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Right.

MR. WILLIAMS:

And the focus is more so on

the compliance-based, legislated required training.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

So the

shortfall in Salaries, you believe you can continue to provide a high level of

service based on the attachment of technology and the use of that, so we're not

losing the service I guess. You still maintain the service even though you have

less salary through technology. Would that be fair to say?

MR. WILLIAMS:

Yes, technology is a significant component of it and, as well, we are very

focused on the training we're actually providing. So our training is more

focused on the compliance and legislative based, and technology is the other key

component, yes.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay. Thank you.

Under

that same heading, 3.1.05, under Professional Services, we've seen a significant

budget increase there from the estimate was, what the revision was, everything

was used and now a significant increase this year in terms of $360,000. I was

just wondering if you could give me some details on that.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Sure.

MR. WILLIAMS:

In terms of the changes there, there are really two components of that

Professional Services increase. One is instead of producing in-house some of the

e-learning modules, we are going to have those provided to us, as opposed

producing them in-house, and that will be consistent with our greater focus on

technology-based training. So that would be one component of the increase with

respect to the Professional Services.

The

other component of the increase would be attributable to a change management

function, ensuring we are prepared as an organization for the change management,

given the order of change that's occurring within the Human Resource

Secretariat.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yes.

MR. WILLIAMS:

So that's the two components

that are made up there. And more specifically, with respect to the e-learning

modules, we're anticipating perhaps anywhere the need from eight to 10 of those

to be produced this year to facilitate the training requirements of the public

service.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So the providers of those

e-learning modules, would they be an outside contractor or consultant?

MR. WILLIAMS:

That would be outside resource, correct.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

So have they been already

identified who that would be?

MR. WILLIAMS:

With respect to whether they're already identified, I don't think they've

already been identified per se, and I could get you information. There are

certain ones obviously, folks who have an expertise in that area, but there is

more

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Desire2Learn is one that

comes to mind. They're involved with a number of agencies.

MR. WILLIAMS:

Yes.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

And the

second component would be, for the change management point of view, the same

sort of thing; you would contract out those services for someone to provide that

assistance to you.

MR. WILLIAMS:

In large part, yes.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MS. C. BENNETT:

If I might add, I wanted to

make sure that the Committee wasn't left with the impression that this is an

ongoing purchase of e-learning on an annual basis. This provides us the

opportunity to do the one-time purchasing of the modules that they would need to

provide the critical training. So it's one time.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Sure. They would create the

modules and you would take them and use them as

MS. C. BENNETT:

Or the modules may already

be created depending on what the topic is and we'd purchase the module and be

able to use it. Not necessarily would it lead into purchasing the same module on

an annual basis. You'd only purchase a module once you needed it. You'd use it

until it was irrelevant and then you'd have to purchase another one.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yes, so in some cases it

would be a one-time spend, really.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Right.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Right. Okay, thank you.

There's

just some reference here to 3.1.05 in regard to federal-provincial revenue.

Could you just give me an understanding of what that would be, both of those?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes, most of that's related

to French language training and the contracts for French language training.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

And you

would provide it to federal agencies and provincial and you would bill it back?

How does that work?

MR. WILLIAMS:

With respect, that is correct. It could be both entities. For example, health

care in terms of self-paced French language training that would be billed, and

the same thing, federal government agencies, that's where the revenue would come

from there.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay, thank you.

3.1.06,

Organizational Development Initiative, just if you could give me some commentary

on Salaries there from what was budgeted last year, almost less than half was

spent, and then this year the envelope has been readjusted as well.

MR. WILLIAMS:

With respect to the

Organizational Development Initiative, this is money allocated for salaries not

for individuals assigned to this particular division, but this is money that can

be availed of through government departments to assist with developmental

opportunities or increasing knowledge base of staff. This is money that's

allocated for departments to avail of to hire or engage people. There's not a

salary there's no staff assigned to this, for example; this is money that's

available for departments to use.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Like in-house training,

something (inaudible).

MR. WILLIAMS:

In-house training, or a

typical example we'd see is that a department may have a need for an additional

financial resource and they may not have a position available but they may seek

a developmental opportunity. They may say, look, for six months, we'd like to

have somebody come work with us on a financial management project and this will

be where they could avail of funding to assist them with that process.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

My last

question on 3.1.06 is: Purchased Services, we seen what was budgeted last year

wasn't used and then the estimate for this year is down from last year's

estimate. Just give me some understanding of that; that was Purchased Services.

MR. WILLIAMS:

With respect to the

Purchased Services here, two points, Mr. Hutchings; one, with respect to the

first part of your question dealing with the reduced spending from the original

budget that would have been with respect to training that had been identified by

departments. However, for operational reasons or other reasons, it couldn't be

facilitated, so that would explain the less-than-anticipated spending there.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

MR. WILLIAMS:

And I'm sorry, did you have

a second component to that question?

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Yeah, the restatement for

this year based on last year is significantly lower; it's $987,000. I'm just

wondering is that zero-based budgeting or just reassessing what you actually

need.

MS. C. BENNETT:

With the lower uptake last

year, a decision would have been made to reduce to more accurately reflect what

the uptake had been.

MR. HUTCHINGS:

Okay.

That's

good for me, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Hutchings.

Ms.

Michael, 3.1.05 through 3.1.06.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Chair.

Mr.

Hutchings has covered all the questions I have, except one. That has to do with

the French language training. There have been concerns that have been brought to

me and there was one that I actually had to bring into the House of Assembly. I

did work with Minister Trimper a bit on that.

I guess

my first question is, so I'll get a good handle of what is happening, how much

of the French language training is now dependent on the module model with a

student with a computer, and how much is still face-to-face training?

MR. WILLIAMS:

With respect to that question, in terms of the percentage, I don't feel

comfortable now identifying the percentage but certainly that's a piece of

information I can get back to you on, the actual percentage that is. Essentially

you're looking for a distinction between classroom based versus module based

with a self-paced learning module.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. WILLIAMS:

Certainly, I can identify that for you.

MS. MICHAEL:

Well, I think I'd also like some information on what exactly is included in the

module model. I speak French, I taught French, I know what it is to learn a

second language and I have real concerns. One of the most important things is

the classroom base from the perspective of the communication and learning to

communicate freely and fluently.

So it would be interesting for me to know what's actually

involved in the modules because there can be some things that can be done that

way, but I wouldn't want to see somebody dependent only on modules, student

based with a module. I think there has to be more than that. So I really would

like a real understanding of what is happening to the French language training.

I have real concerns about it.

And the case that was brought to me and I guess this is

all under your department specifically was a nurse from the Health Sciences

who really needs it. She actually gets called upon because she's one of the few

who has been studying French and sometimes she is in one part of the hospital

and gets called to another part. Yet when she applied for her training this

year, she was told no, tough luck; you're going to have to wait. Even though

it's not written in her job description, there's an expectation. I don't why it

happened so quickly but after this all became public, she did get word there was

space and she's in a classroom now, which is good.

But I think there needs to be real evaluation of why

somebody is looking for the French language training, how much of it is

absolutely essential to the person. There are some cases ,

like our director of communications did extremely well in doing that and she

actually has done the testing, examinations and she's considered now under the

French language international qualifications to be bilingual. It's great that

she can speak French, but it's not essential. It is really good that

communication people can deal with Radio-Canada and not just with CBC, et

cetera.

In the

case of the nurse I'm talking about, that has become an essential part of her

work. So I'm concerned about how the decisions are getting made, or in the

future will be getting made.

MS. C. BENNETT:

As Mr. Williams has said, he

can certainly provide an overview of the current program, its structure and how

it's delivered.

With

regard to the specific example that you mentioned in Health, I'll certainly

speak to the Minister of Health because they're having conversations about

recognizing that a French need could happen anywhere, anytime, in any place in

our hospital system and that there may be a way to use technology for electronic

translation of files. It doesn't solve the patient concern, but it certainly

should be able to expedite communication, particularly around medical files.

It's something he spoke to me recently about, and we can certainly continue to

provide the Member opposite with some information.

Mr.

Williams will get back to you, or somebody from the department will get back to

you with the curriculum layout and we'll certainly give you those answers.

MS. MICHAEL:

Could I make one more point,

Minister?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Absolutely.

MS. MICHAEL:

I think there's much more to

it than just the medical files being translated. The province I think is in a

contractual situation with the Saint Pierre and Miquelon government, for

example. I think if they're going to continue having patients come here, they

being taken care of, and translation of files is not doing that.

MS. C. BENNETT:

No, and if I replay the

answer I gave you, I said that that was one of the components that would help.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, I heard that.

MS. C. BENNETT:

Certainly not the only one,

and I think I referenced bedside and patient communications as being a critical

element, but certainly those challenges in health care are something that Health

would continue to be reviewing and looking at. What we'll provide is the Centre

for Learning's curriculum as per your request and provide you some visibility

into how that program is being delivered.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

That's

all I have for that page.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Shall

3.1.05 through 3.1.06 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.1.05 through 3.1.06 carried.

CHAIR:

3.1.07 through 3.1.08

inclusive.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Not a

lot here. Under 3.1.07, Employee Benefits, last year there was an overspend of

$34,500. Can we have an explanation of that, please?

MS. C. BENNETT:

Yes, it's related to higher

than anticipated Workers' Compensation costs.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

I'm

assuming Employee Benefits here is similar to other Employee Benefits line,

again, somebody goin