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September 25, 2012

40th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2012-Sep-25 (PDF)

L083 - Tue 25 Sep 2012 / Mar 25 sep 2012

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Tuesday 25 September 2012 Mardi 25 septembre 2012

MEMBERS’ PRIVILEGES

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

MEMBERS’ PRIVILEGES

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): On September 13, 2012—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m waiting. We’ll try that again.

On September 13, 2012, in response to a point of privilege raised by the member from Cambridge, Mr. Leone, I offered a period of time to allow the House leaders to devise a means by which the concerns of all parties could be met. I also indicated that I would return to the House to make a statement on the matter.

Let me now advise the House of the position we currently find ourselves in. I first want to make note for the House that the Minister of Energy and the Ontario Power Authority yesterday tabled a large number of documents related to the Oakville and Mississauga power plants.

Letters of transmittal from both the minister and the OPA indicate that what was tabled comprises all documents responsive to the May 16 request of the Standing Committee on Estimates. It would appear that the House is now in receipt of the requisite documents; however, this is ultimately a determination for the Standing Committee on Estimates to make.

It seems equally apparent to me, not having received any communication to the contrary signed by all three House leaders, that there are still some remaining concerns related to the initial refusal to produce the documents and the length of time it has taken to do so. This takes us to the finding of a prima facie breach of privilege on September 13, and the response of the House to that finding.

At this point, I want to take a moment to clarify for the House exactly what a prima facie finding of a breach of privilege means, and just as importantly what it does not mean, just as Speaker Peters did in relation to a similar situation on May 4, 2010:

“Joseph Maingot, in Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, states (at page 221):

“‘A prima facie case of privilege in the parliamentary sense is one where the evidence on its face as outlined by the member is sufficiently strong for the House to be asked to debate the matter and to send it to a committee to investigate whether the privileges of the House have been breached or contempt has occurred and report to the House....

“‘While the Speaker may find that a prima facie case of privilege exists and give the matter precedence in debate, it is the House alone that decides whether a breach of privilege or a contempt has occurred, for only the House has the power to commit or punish for contempt.’

“In short, a prima facie finding by the Speaker does not mean that the Speaker has found anyone guilty of such an allegation. Rather, prima facie means the Speaker has determined that on the face of it, the information presented points toward the likelihood that a breach of privilege has occurred, and that it is in the interests of the House to give priority consideration to such a serious matter, and for a parliamentary committee to inquire into it.”

In the case at hand, while it may be that the House would determine that the documents having been tabled resolves the matter and that is the end of it, it may also be that the House would determine otherwise; that is, that the matter of prima facie finding still warrants a response. Either way, it is the House, not the Speaker, that is in the position to make that determination.

That being the case, I understand that the member from Cambridge has been advised on what an appropriate motion would be in response to a prima facie finding of breach of privilege such as this. I will now turn to the member from Cambridge to determine if he does wish to proceed with that motion.

Mr. Rob Leone: Mr. Speaker, I do plan on—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Indicate if you wish.

Mr. Rob Leone: Yes, I do.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Just before allowing the member for Cambridge to put a motion, I also want to clarify for the House how the subsequent debate will play out in the House in a practical sense.

The motion that the member for Cambridge will move is debatable and amendable. It will have precedence over and will displace consideration of all regular business until it is disposed of. This includes question period, deferred votes, routine proceedings and private members’ public business. I will note that on previous occasions in 2003 and 1999, with a privilege motion being debated, the House still considered private members’ public business. This is attributable to the fact that the physical structure of the meeting day in those years was different than it is today. It is not now possible, as it was on the previous times, to separate out a discrete time for private members’ business.

Debate on the motion will comprise of the normal rotation, with each member being entitled to speak for up to 20 minutes on the motion and again on any amendment. There will not be a period for questions and comments following speeches. While the vote on any such amendment is not deferrable, the vote on the main motion will be.

I now recognize the member from Cambridge to put his motion.

Mr. Rob Leone: Mr. Speaker, I move that this House directs the Minister of Energy and the Ontario Power Authority to table immediately with the Clerk of the House all remaining documents ordered by the Standing Committee on Estimates on May 16, 2012; and

That the matter of the Speaker’s finding of a prima facie case of privilege, with respect to the production of documents by the Minister of Energy and the Ontario Power Authority to the Standing Committee on Estimates, be referred to the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs, which is hereby reconstituted as it existed on September 9, 2012; and

That the committee shall be authorized to meet at the call of the Chair and shall report back its findings and recommendations no later than November 19, 2012.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Cambridge, Mr. Leone, moves that this House directs the Minister of Energy and the Ontario Power Authority to table immediately with the Clerk of the House all remaining documents ordered by the Standing Committee on Estimates on May 16, 2012; and

That the matter of the Speaker’s finding of a prima facie case of privilege, with respect to the production of documents by the Minister of Energy of the Ontario Power Authority to the Standing Committee of Estimates, be referred to the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs, which is hereby reconstituted as it existed on September 9, 2012; and

That the committee shall be authorized to meet at the call of the Chair, and shall report back its findings and recommendations no later than November 19, 2012.

Mr. Leone, the member from Cambridge, you have 20 minutes.

Interjection.

Hon. John Milloy: Point of order.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The government House leader on a point of order.

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, I’m not trying to be difficult, but we have heard this motion for the first time in the last 30 seconds. It’s the usual practice of the House that members have copies of the motion through the order paper and that we have an opportunity to see it in advance. Under these circumstances, I look for your guidance. There’s also the issue, as is the usual practice, of French translation etc. I look for your guidance as to how this is dealt with in this situation so that members have access to the motion that you are asking us to debate.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order, please.

I thank the government House leader for his point of order. For clarity purposes, under these circumstances and under this condition, these requests are not required. I ask the Clerk to make as quickly as possible the said documents to ensure that you have copies available for you.

The member from Cambridge.

Mr. Rob Leone: Prior to coming to this place, I was a university professor. I studied political science, and one of my favourite subjects of interest was our parliamentary system and our parliamentary democracy.

One of the fundamental foundational principles of our government is the principle of responsible government. In responsible government—as I used to tell my students, Mr. Speaker—the crown, the government, the cabinet, is responsible in three occasions. On the first instance, it’s responsible to the crown.

It’s also responsible to the people, and we have democratic elections, at which time the people get to pass judgment on this government. Certainly, we always make the case, as the opposition, that the government is not doing its appropriate work, and in particular with relation to this matter, that we see instances from time to time where issues like this come up that seemingly brew elements of cynicism in our government. We have to protect that. That’s our role here: to ensure that people have respect for the work that we do in this place and that we eliminate the cynicism to the greatest extent possible.

So we’re going to be making the case that the people, Mr. Speaker, that we have a position that’s quite different from the government’s when that time comes.

But most importantly, and why we’re here, is that the government is responsible, the cabinet is responsible to this Legislature. We can never lose sight of that. It’s our responsibility as legislators, particularly our responsibility as members of the opposition, to hold the government to account. In order for us to do that job, in order for us to be able to do the work that we are entrusted to do by our constituents, we have to be able to get the information with respect to what government is doing and not doing as best as possible.

The reason why we’re here, the reason why I’m here standing in this place today moving the motion that I just moved, is related to the fact that we don’t have the information that we have requested. We requested this on May 16 in the estimates committee—May 16. It’s now the end of September, and we’re just getting a few more trinkets of documents flowing through, not nearly the amount I think that we were hoping for, and certainly we have questions. But it’s the fact that we have to have the information available to us to hold the government to account.

There remain lingering questions as to what the costs of the relocation of the two power plants are, both the Mississauga power plant and the Oakville power plant, the costs associated with doing that. We have questions related to the fact of why the government actually sited those plants where they did to begin with. I know, as we all start to comb through the thousands of pages of documents that were provided, questions are not being answered. In fact we almost have more questions today than we did before yesterday. Simply for that reason, Mr. Speaker, we need a committee of this Legislature to examine, to explore, to investigate exactly what is happening in that ministry.

One of the things that has been debated at length in the estimates committee and in this House is the question of who is entrusted to represent the public interest. The public interest is something that we often hear as an excuse: “We can’t give you documents because it’s against the public interest for people to know exactly what their government is doing.” I reject that premise, Mr. Speaker. The fact is that the public interest can never be determined by one person or one government. We’re entrusted by our constituents to uphold the public interest.

Each and every one of us in this chamber is entrusted by our constituents to uphold the public interest. That is what we do here. That’s our role. The public interest is not for a minister to say or determine and use that as a shield to prevent the information from flowing to its committees or to this House or to the people. It can’t be used as a shield. We all have a role to play in protecting that public interest, and I believe that the public has a right to know exactly the reasons why this power plant was put there in the first place and then cancelled.

Each and every step along the way, we’ve seen the government’s unwillingness to listen, unwillingness to listen to members of this House when they’re asking very simple and basic questions. It shouldn’t be this hard to get information. It shouldn’t be this hard to actually say, “Well, how much does something cost?” We have to wait, on the verge of finding a minister in contempt of this House, to get any information, and only then do we get some trinkets. It takes us going to these lengths to find the information, to hold this government accountable, to do the job that the people of Ontario have entrusted us to do, and Mr. Speaker, that behaviour cannot be rewarded.

In my view, we are still proceeding with the motion of contempt, or at least the motion to get a committee to study contempt, for two reasons. First of all, and I’ve mentioned this already, it’s taken quite a long time to get to this stage. We’re here four months later, still trying to get to the bottom of what’s happened. And, Mr. Speaker, we got some information. I’ve perused many thousands of pages, and certainly other members and their staff have looked at it, too. We’ve looked at it. I’m not sure what the government was afraid of. If whatever is in those documents was something subject to be withheld, we certainly don’t know what that is.

We get asked, “Is there a smoking gun in the documents?” I’ve reviewed thousands of pages. I haven’t seen a smoking document. I wonder why they take so long to release something that simply isn’t there. The answer to that question might be what’s not in those documents. What are they hiding? If it took so long to table those documents that there’s no real smoking gun in—why? What are you trying to hide? This is why we need a committee of this House to investigate in their entirety those documents and to see if there are other documents that might be present. There are some inquiries that we need to make.

There are some questions that we have to ask. I think, Mr. Speaker, that putting this question to the Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs is the appropriate place to have these discussions, because we’re talking at the end of the day about taxpayer dollars; we’re talking today about the squandering of hundreds of millions of dollars—not to build roads and hospitals and bridges, not to provide MRIs or cancer treatment, but to move power plants that simply don’t exist.

I think the people of Ontario have some serious questions to ask with respect to these motivations and the political motivations that may underlie the decisions that they made there.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, we have some serious questions about whether the government has in fact tabled all the documents. Certainly, it’s up to this House to decide, and I recognize the points that you made prior to allowing me to stand here. But it is the House that has to determine this, and there are some questions that we have with respect to the documents. Why, for example, do we have not one document that was authored by the former Minister of Energy—not one—who is currently the Minister of Economic Development?

Either he never thought it necessary to write “power plants” in any of his correspondence—it’s a pretty major part of his portfolio, so I don’t think that is the reason—or the government might be withholding all correspondence that was authored by the former Minister of Energy. So we have to ask those questions, and asking those questions in committee is the precise point in time to do that.

We see in the correspondence we have received to date that there are, in fact, gaps in time, where there’s been a series of things that have been talked about with reference to, let’s say, the Oakville power plant, and then nothing else is said for weeks. We have to ask questions, Mr. Speaker. Exactly what happened in those transpiring weeks between the blackout period, as I like to call it, between the end of correspondence and the cancellation of the Oakville plant—two or three weeks, and no documents with respect to that. So we have serious questions with relation to that.

Mr. Speaker, I do have some serious concerns about whether we’ve seen all the documents, unredacted, as requested by this House. Among the 36,000 pages that we’ve seen reported and we’ve reviewed, thousands of pages are blank, some of which have clear whiteouts and redactions. So we have some questions about exactly what is in those documents.

We’re moving forward, Mr. Speaker. I think it’s right to suggest—because people ask the question, “Why are you going forward when you received the documents?” We feel that there is still more to be said. All the documents aren’t before us, and that’s why we’re proceeding with this motion.

Mr. Speaker, I have some ice in my mouth. I have a sore throat, too, so it’s making it feel a little better.

We are in very serious times. One of the things that I think bears some questions is the precise cost of the power plants. Yesterday, those members listened to the energy minister during question period saying that the cost for the relocation of the plant is only $40 million. Now, Mr. Speaker, that number didn’t include the cost of $210 million with respect to the turbines that the OPA has to purchase. They’ll be sending a cheque next week, I’m sure. It doesn’t include the cost of the new transmission lines that have to be put into place.

Simply put, in the documents we saw some very interesting information with respect to the siting of the Oakville plant. The OPA believed that that was the only place it could be if we wanted to avoid at least $200 million in extra expenditures on building transmission lines to the western part of the GTA. Mr. Speaker, those are figures that have to be included in the total cost of the power plant. So we want to ask some serious, hard questions. Exactly what is set before us? What are the numbers? What are the facts? What are the things that we have to determine during the course of our work in committee?

So again, Mr. Speaker, this is about holding the government to account. This isn’t about a political motivation, other than doing our job as members of the opposition. That is the reality of it here. What we want to fight against—what we’re certainly trying to fight against is the political motivations of the government, who have clearly embarked upon the biggest and the most expensive seat-saver program in the province’s history, in the country’s history. So there’s enough to go around to apply the blame in terms of the political opportunism that we see before us and where the political interests have superseded the government’s decision to in fact do this against the public interest.

We have lots of questions, Mr. Speaker, to discuss. We’re very eager to get this to committee where we can debate these items, some of which I’ve just outlined today, and there’s a lot more. There’s a lot more to be said about this, and we certainly want to pursue this investigation further because we believe that a case for contempt is probably stronger today, after those documents have been tabled, than it was before we had those documents.

Mr. Speaker, we want to uncover the truth. That’s our goal, that’s our mission, and that’s what people entrusted us to do.

Mr. Jim McDonell: That’s our job.

Mr. Rob Leone: As my seatmate has said, that’s our job, and he’s absolutely right. We have a responsibility here to make sure that the public interest is upheld and that people’s tax dollars aren’t being wasted on not building power plants and instead put to front-line health care and education, which I think members of this House think is a worthwhile and wise investment, and certainly we do on an ongoing basis, Mr. Speaker.

This is where we are, at this historic juncture. I think this hasn’t happened in this Legislature for 104 years. We are in the midst of making history. This is a very powerful task that we are charged with, one that we cannot take lightly.

Much like my favourite parliamentary theorists like Blackstone, Dicey and Burke, who have, for years—centuries, in fact—written about the value of having responsible government and a robust parliamentary system, we are entrusted, 107 members of this Legislature are entrusted, to do that work that has for centuries been done in the Commonwealth. This is a very important task, a serious task, a task that we have taken great lengths to consider.

Whether it was in the course of debate at estimates or debating it here in this House through what I thought was one of my most memorable days when we debated your ruling on this point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I think that our forefathers and -mothers would be proud of the work that we’re doing on this file each and every day.

I just received a note here, Mr. Speaker. I think there’s some question about the date which we’ve listed here, so I would like to move an amendment that the words “November 19, 2012” be deleted and the following added: “November 23, 2012.”

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Cambridge has moved his amendment to read “November 23”—to confirm with the member from Cambridge?

Mr. Rob Leone: Yes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): November 23.

Further debate.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Mr. Speaker, we find ourselves in an unusual situation. This government made decisions about power planning and power investment in Ontario that will cost Ontarians hundreds of millions of dollars.

Mrs. Liz Sandals: On a point of order—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): A point of order from the member from Guelph.

Mrs. Liz Sandals: Could you clarify whether we’re not debating the amendment now, an amendment having been placed?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): To be precise, we are debating the amendment, but because of the content of what that amendment is, it’s the overall tenor of the bill, because the numbers were changed from the 19th to the 23rd.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: May I continue, Mr. Speaker?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I will now recognize the member from Toronto–Danforth to continue.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Thank you, Speaker. It is generally acknowledged in the media and in this Legislature that, contrary to the advice of the Ontario Power Authority, this government made decisions solely to save its own political fortunes. Speaker, it is our duty here to understand all the factors that led into that decision-making, who made those decisions and fully what the cost of those decisions was.

It is at least apparent at this point that the decision to build a plant in Mississauga and then cancel it once it was under construction cost the people of Ontario $190 million. It may have cost more. It’s our intention to review the documents that were provided to us and actually determine exactly what those costs were. On the face of it at this point, the decision to go ahead with a plant in Oakville—which this party said was unnecessary, that this party said would have been far more economically dealt with through investment in efficiency and conservation.

It is apparent at this point that the decision to proceed with that plant and then to cancel it in order to save a seat cost us at least another $40 million. But, Speaker, when one reviews the file, one finds that there’s at least another $200 million added on top of that to deal with the cost of putting transmission lines in the southwest of the greater Toronto area, to make up for the fact that that plant had been moved elsewhere, to make up for the fact that power needs in that area will not have been met.

Speaker, in addition to that, there’s $210 million for steam turbine generators bought by the government of Ontario that will be provided to the plant which will be moved to Napanee. I would say that we’re talking about a $450-million expenditure there. That is of consequence. It is our responsibility as legislators to understand, again, what the processes of decision-making were that led us to commit to a plant that this party felt was not necessary, and then led to a political decision to incur extra cost for the people of Ontario by making a political decision rather than a power decision.

Speaker, Mr. Leone has spoken about the documents that have been provided to us—roughly 30,000 pages. When one reads the documents, one has to say that, on the face of it, they are not complete. If you look through the documents—and perhaps others will find documents that I have not found, that our staff to this point have not found—interestingly, there is not a single email from the previous Minister of Energy, Brad Duguid, or the current Minister of Energy, Chris Bentley. One has to ask: How did they communicate their wishes with staff? Did they operate on a verbal-orders-only basis?

Did they send handwritten notes that were then filed away or recycled? How is it that they made their wishes and interests known to their staff?

Based on the documents that were presented to us, the only decision-making happened from the assistant deputy minister level down. Frankly, Madam Speaker, an awful lot of those documents were between communications staff to other communications staff: “How do we manage this mess in front of us?” That leads me to believe, as it led Mr. Leone to believe, that the documentation presented to us was, at a minimum, incomplete.

Beyond that, the letter of engagement with the law firm hired to deal with TransCanada pipeline and the Oakville matter goes page 1, page 2 and then page 5. I’m going to assume that Word was operative when those documents were generated and would automatically have numbered them, and thus I conclude some pages were missing. Of those pages that were present, there were references to Greenfield—the other plant that’s in contention; the Mississauga gas plant—that had large areas of white all around them. Significant sections of the letters were taken out.

I have to ask myself: Is the government being forthcoming when it sends us documentation that is heavily obscured, that has significant sections or potentially significant sections taken out? That does not seem to comply with the resolution of the estimates committee; doesn’t comply with the direction of this House to produce the documents.

Speaker, this Legislature, and we individual legislators who sit in it, are held accountable by the people who send us here to act on their behalf. They ask us to look out for their interests, to fully understand what’s going on; if we’re in government, to act in the interests of the people of Ontario; if we’re in opposition, to ensure that the government operates the way people expect it to operate.

We are the people expected to hold the government to account, to make sure that the truth of matters is brought out and that the interests of the whole of the province are taken into consideration when decisions are made. We can’t do our job, and the public cannot do its job, if documents are obscured and withheld.

It is unfortunate, Madam Speaker, but others who sat on the estimates committee with me this spring and this summer know very well that in attempting to ask questions of this minister about straightforward technical matters, we could not get answers. This minister consistently would play all over the field to avoid giving a direct answer for simple questions like: “How do you pay for insurance on your different power plants? What do you pay for insurance?” A question I asked, “How much do your energy efficiency programs cost?”, could not be answered and has not yet been answered.

Speaker, if we ask leading and rhetorical questions that really don’t have an answer, well, then, I say that the minister has the right to skate around and reply with rhetoric. But if we ask straightforward questions about the operation of the ministry that the minister has responsibility for and we cannot get answers and we are delayed and we are stonewalled, then the credibility of that minister with regard to giving information to the public comes into question.

If we had had a very different experience in estimates, where in fact the minister was straightforward with us, I think he might actually get a greater degree of trust in this House. But he did not engender trust. What he engendered was a sense that, wherever significant matters of concern to the people of Ontario were in play, we could not rely on him to speak and give us the information.

For us, then, to go through these 30,000 pages of documents without having a clear indication that this in fact is the full body of documents in question; for us to be in a situation where we speak to our constituents, to the public, and have to say that we have been able to judge this matter clearly and adequately—we can’t say that today. I wish we could say that today. I wish we could say, “We have all the documents. We will go through a process of analysis, of reading, of comparison, and we will, on behalf of the public, be able to explain what happened here.” That can’t happen today.

There are some tantalizing pieces in the documentation: at one point, an exchange of emails between senior people in the Ontario Power Authority talking about the fact that the government is negotiating with the owners, the proponents of these power plants, without talking to them, even though they hold the contracts. If I was on the board of directors of the Ontario Power Authority, I would realize that I was really simply a front, a facade for decision-making taken at a completely different level.

The documents may not have given all the information we want, but they have made it clear that the Ontario Power Authority is far less than an arm’s-length body when it comes to power decision-making. It is simply a front for the Minister of Energy.

The other interesting document is a reference to a Minister of Energy finding out that a decision had been made about a power plant out of the Premier’s office without the minister having been told in advance. One would ask, what is the purpose of the minister? What is the purpose of the minister’s staff? Who actually is advising on energy and who is actually executing the decisions? These are substantial questions.

When the Minister of Energy stands up in the House, it’s our expectation that in fact that is the person who has the authority, that is the person who is weighing the factors that bear on the province’s future and on its supply of electricity, and that is the person that we hold to account. Legally, that’s what’s before us. But the documentation, even in the limited form that has been presented to us, indicates that the minister is a relatively small part of this whole process.

Speaker, I’d like to move a motion—sorry; an amendment, a sub-amendment, to the amendment of Mr. Leone. I move that the words “November 23, 2012” be removed and the following be added: “November 26, 2012.” Thank you.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Mr. Tabuns has moved that the words “November 23, 2012” be removed and the following be added: “November 26, 2012.”

Further debate?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Thank you, Speaker.

I’d like to go back and speak to the main motion, and I will have an opportunity to expand on the amendment at a later point.

In reading the documentation—

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Excuse me. You need to speak to the amendment you just moved.

Mr. John Yakabuski: You can talk about anything.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Thank you, John.

Madam Speaker, it is very clear that it is going to take us a fair amount of time to get through all of this. It is going to take us a fair amount of time.

When I was looking last night at the internal emails to the Ontario Power Authority around the time that the plant was cancelled—to their surprise—in Oakville, it was very clear that when they were asked, they advised that, in fact, the plant was surplus to the needs of Ontario, that it wasn’t needed to back up renewable power, that it was not needed to shut down coal, that it was not needed to meet supply issues in Ontario as a whole, and that in fact the power needs, the reliability needs, for the southwest GTA—Mississauga, parts of Etobicoke, Oakville—could be met by an investment in transmission lines. A year earlier, when this plant was commissioned, that analysis had not been done.

It was clear to us at the time when this plant was proposed that we already had a substantial power surplus in Ontario and that further investment in these plants was going to be extremely costly and, frankly, that this plant was going to be unneeded. Within 12 months, the OPA had come to a similar conclusion, even though a contract had been inked, the value of which was $1.2 billion, the payout on which will be over $3 billion over the next 20 years.

An initial error, a realization of the political impact of that error, a lost seat, and then incremental costs to deal with the political error—that is no way to run an electricity system, it is no way to run a province, and frankly, it is no way for us and the public to actually come to grips with how Ontario is governed.

Speaker, this government has had the opportunity to go through its files and present the documents requested by the Legislature. For reasons that are not clear to me, it has not provided the documents requested. I believe that the full order from the committee, the full decision of the committee, needs to be met by the government, that we need to see what the Minister of Energy actually directed his staff to do. We need to see if staff from the Premier’s office were directing OPA or Ministry of Energy staff, aside from anything the minister was doing.

We need to see the directions from the decision-makers—not the people given the job to carry out a decision, as interesting as their notes may be—saying, “This is a problem. This is how it will be solved. Act accordingly.” On the face of it, we have not been given those documents yet. For us to make our assessment, for the people of Ontario to know what really happened, we need those documents.

Mr. Leone has made a motion that aids the people of Ontario in understanding. He has made a motion that holds the government to account. We have a government at the moment that is apparently trying to dodge that accountability. It needs to, in fact, follow the original direction. Provide the documents.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Further debate?

Hon. John Milloy: Madam Speaker, I stand today with mixed emotions. I stand today with a sense of pride, because it gives me an opportunity to defend and speak about a colleague and a friend, the Minister of Energy, the Honourable Chris Bentley, someone who was elected in 2003, as I was, and has served this Legislature with distinction as Minister of Labour and as Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities. I had the opportunity to serve as his parliamentary assistant and saw him as a great parliamentarian. He went on to be Attorney General and served with great distinction here in the province of Ontario.

Finally, he now serves as Minister of Energy, someone who, again, has served with distinction and handled many, many complicated—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): I can’t hear the speaker. I’d ask you to respect the Chair.

Hon. John Milloy: He has distinguished himself as an outstanding minister and an outstanding parliamentarian.

As House leader, one would expect that in a situation like this I would be standing today with all sorts of parliamentary procedure books and quoting all sorts of arcane rulings. There’s nothing wrong with that, but in this case it’s actually very, very straightforward. I think it’s very easy to understand what the position of the government is and what the position I would urge to be of this Legislature.

Let’s look at the facts: Right now, we have a situation where a committee of this Legislature has asked for certain documents to be produced. We have produced those documents.

Interjections.

Hon. John Milloy: I hear the heckling across the way when I say that, with a bit of sadness. I’m old enough to remember the party of Bill Davis. I’m old enough to remember the great Progressive Conservative Party of this province and their respect for Parliament and their respect for our institutions.

At lunchtime yesterday, the Minister of Energy tabled, with the Clerk of the House and with the clerk of the estimates committee, all the documents that were requested by the committee. I have in my hands copies of the attestations signed by Colin Andersen, the chief executive officer of the Ontario Power Authority, and Chris Bentley, the Minister of Energy, pointing out that all documents that were requested were put there.

What’s going on here today is nothing short of disgusting. It is not the party of Bill Davis or John Robarts. It’s not the party of the Progressive Conservatives, who understand that in Parliament, a minister’s word is the truth. The minister has signed that all documents that have been asked for have been provided, and, Madam Speaker, there is a parliamentary tradition that respects that. To sit here in some sort of kangaroo court where the opposition is saying that—

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): I would ask the member to withdraw.

Hon. John Milloy: I withdraw, Madam Speaker.

The principle that the opposition is putting forward, a principle which saddens me and even disgusts me, that somehow someone is guilty until proven innocent, goes against parliamentary traditions for hundreds and hundreds of years. The minister has tabled the documents that were requested.

What has been the origin of the debate that we’re having right now is a motion that was put forward by the committee that I would like to read into the record. It says: “Furthermore, that the committee recommends to the House that the Minister of Energy be compelled to provide the Standing Committee on Estimates, without delay, the documents and information it ordered pursuant to standing order 110(

b) and, if the minister refuses, that he be held in contempt of Parliament for breach of privilege.”

The minister has not refused. The minister has provided those documents. The case is closed. The matter is done.

As I said, I’m not going to stand here with arcane books, with procedures and rulings. I’m going to paint the picture as it is. A request came from the estimates committee for these documents. The documents have been produced. The request from the committee said that if they were refused, we’d go forward with contempt.

Madam Speaker, let me give you the context of what has happened. I’m giving you the very, very simple argument that’s the heart of it, but I’m going to spend the few minutes that I have to talk about the context of this.

There were two planned gas plants, one in Mississauga and one in Oakville, and as members of this House know, they were cancelled. Why were they cancelled? They were cancelled for a variety of reasons, but I think the important point—anyone who is looking at this case would know that there was unanimity on all sides of the House.

I had a chance yesterday in question period, as I said, to walk down memory lane, so let’s do it again. Let’s look at the member from Halton and what he told Hansard on June 1, 2010: “The people of Oakville have told you they don’t want the proposed gas-fired power plant … and I agree with them.”

MPP Toby Barrett said, in a letter to the Minister of Energy: “The potential for future alternate generation at Nanticoke to replace that slated for the proposed and disputed Clarkson plant should receive ample consideration.”

The member from Hamilton Centre—it’s not just the Conservatives, Madam Speaker: “New Democrats actually have thought for a long time that that plant should never have been built and we’ve said so.”

The member from Toronto–Danforth, who we just heard: “I don’t agree with the Oakville power plant. I don’t think it is necessary.”

Interjection: Unanimity.

Hon. John Milloy: Unanimity, Madam Speaker. So what do we do? We cancel the plants.

That’s not the point of the debate today. The point of the debate today is the fact that there were discussions in front of the estimates committee about these cancellations—appropriate discussions—and the Minister of Energy was asked to provide certain documents. The Minister of Energy did not refuse outright.

He brought forward the very simple proposition that many of these documents in fact reflected upon negotiations that were going on right there, related to the Oakville power plant and its potential location somewhere else, and that to release those documents of a commercially sensitive nature could cost the taxpayers significant amounts of money and jeopardize those negotiations. I think people can understand that.

As I’ve said in other contexts, anyone who has ever purchased a car or purchased a house and has been involved in negotiations knows that if they had access to what the other side was thinking and doing, to documents that were prepared in confidence, it could jeopardize those negotiations.

In fact, no less of an expert than an officer of this Legislature, the Auditor General of Ontario, said on September 5 in public accounts: “My sense on the Oakville one”—meaning the Oakville power plant—“is that it could very well be that some of this information could be subject to client-solicitor privilege, or even if we were to get it”—get the documents—“in my opinion, it could be damaging to the province’s negotiating position.”

There was debate at committee. There was discussion at committee. The Chair himself, Mr. Prue, agreed. He in fact acknowledged the fact that there were competing interests here. I quote Hansard on May 16 of the Standing Committee on Estimates:

“The minister has the right to decline either giving that documentation or giving voice to that documentation during his answering of the questions....

“I would advise that I’m going to allow the motion to proceed, but I would also advise—and I think the minister, being a lawyer himself, knows full well that he may choose to answer the question in such a way as not to prejudice the province in any way, and I would expect him to do so. That would be my ruling.”

The Minister of Energy provided documents to the Standing Committee on Estimates—not all the documents—and the matter was referred to the Legislature. The Speaker, about 10 days ago, stood in this place and made a ruling. He made a ruling that acknowledged the fact that we have competing interests here. He made a ruling that knew that there were commercial confidences at play, that there was solicitor-client privilege at play. He realized that although the committee has an absolute right to those documents, there needed to be an opportunity for House leaders to sit down to discuss the matter and move forward.

I think it’s worth quoting from the Speaker’s ruling. What he did is he quoted two passages from Speaker Milliken’s April 27, 2010, detainee ruling. It says:

“It seems to me, that the issue before us is this: Is it possible to put into place a mechanism by which these documents could be made available to the House without compromising the security and confidentiality of the information they contain? In other words, is it possible for the two sides, working together in the best interest of the Canadians they serve, to devise a means where both their concerns are met? Surely that is not too much to hope for.”

I go on to quote the Speaker’s ruling now directly:

“I, too, have immense faith in the abilities of the honourable members of this House. I know that a solution can be found to this impasse. All sides need to exercise sobriety in this. Political fortunes should not be the motive for eroding the supremacy of Parliament or ignoring the best interests of citizens in this province. Assiduous attention should be paid to dealing with matters such as this responsibly.”

The matter was sent to the House leaders. Again, why, Madam Speaker? Because the Speaker recognized that there were competing interests here. We had the power of the committee to ask for those documents on one hand, and on the other hand, we had the public interest—the fact that we could potentially jeopardize millions of taxpayers’ dollars if these documents were released in a manner which jeopardized the negotiations.

Madam Speaker, the House leaders had the opportunity to meet four times. I, of course, was a participant in all those meetings. Just for the record, I want to talk about those discussions and what was put on the table.

What we did is, we went to the House leaders, and we put forward what we called two paths. The reason why we call them paths is, first of all, to comply with the Speaker’s ruling, a path to meet the requirements of the estimates committee, which I remind you again, was to make all the documents public. In putting those paths forward, Madam Speaker, I made two provisions. First of all, I said if the opposition wanted to come forward with their own paths, we were all ears; we were very happy to work with them and to co-operate with them.

The second proviso that I put down is that the paths we put forward were merely frameworks and that we were very open to any discussion, to any amendments, to any ideas they had to alter them, to alter their nature, to change them slightly, to send it off in a slightly different direction.

I think it’s important that we look at what those two paths are. The first is that we said the minute that the Oakville plant negotiations were completed, all documents would be released. We felt that those negotiations were coming to an end, and in fact, they came to an end Sunday, Madam Speaker, or early Monday morning—late Sunday night, early Monday morning, in fact.

But as we sat down with the opposition, thinking that they were going to come to fruition in the next couple of weeks, we said, “Let’s just suspend things for a period of time.” I said, “Six weeks maximum, anything longer than six weeks, the documents will automatically be out there, but we feel, in that interim, the deal will be done. The documents will be released. The best interests of the taxpayers will be protected.” The opposition said, “Forget it.” They didn’t care about the best interests of taxpayers. They didn’t care about finding a balance between the two interests, Madam Speaker.

What they said is, “Release the documents.”

Then there’s the second path, Madam Speaker. The second path we put forward is one that has been used in a variety of circumstances, and any student of Parliament or parliamentary procedure would be familiar with it. That is to put together a small committee, a small group of a representative from each party, who could potentially be advised and assisted by someone like the Auditor General, by retired judges, by legal minds or procedural minds to vet the documents, to go through the documents.

If they found that there were sensitive documents, that there were parts of a document that could jeopardize the negotiations that were going on, they would find a way to make sure that the estimates committee had access to them, but at the same time protect the interests of the taxpayers of Ontario.

They were the two paths that we put forward to the opposition. We invited them to bring their own paths forward, Madam Speaker, and we invited them to come up with any amendments, with any changes that they wanted to make to these paths. If six weeks wouldn’t work, could it be a lesser amount? If they didn’t want a panel with the Auditor General, were there other experts they could have? We were open to discussing how this subcommittee would work.

Madam Speaker, we sat down on Friday afternoon to discuss it, and I have to tell you that the meeting lasted about six and a half minutes. We were told by the opposition, unanimously, “You have no choice: Release the documents.” I go back to the original, the original motion, which said, “Release the documents.” Madam Speaker, it was in their power to ask us that, and I said, “Yes, we will release the documents,” so yesterday at noon, every single document that had been requested was released.

Interjection: No, it wasn’t.

Hon. John Milloy: To stand up here and say it’s not, Madam Speaker, is to disrespect hundreds of years of parliamentary privilege. I have here two official documents that have been tabled with the Legislature. Those documents are signed, first, by the head of the Ontario Power Authority, and secondly, by the Minister of Energy, stating that every document requested has gone forward. Madam Speaker, I come from a tradition that believes that when a member of the Legislature says something in the Legislature, that is the truth. If they are going to disrespect the traditions of this House, then I ask them to stand up and furnish proof or evidence, or if not, to shut up, Madam Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Will you withdraw that?

Hon. John Milloy: I withdraw.

Madam Speaker, this is very serious. A member’s word is truth in this Legislature. That is something that goes back generation after generation.

As I say, I’m disgusted to see the party of Bill Davis, a party which was known for its mastery of this place, of this Legislature, standing up for what is nothing more than cheap political tactics and attacking the good name of the Minister of Energy, who has provided every single document as requested by this committee.

The fact of the matter is, Madam Speaker, there are competing interests at work. People understand that. As I say, it may be a simple analogy, but it’s the same principle: If any of us went out to purchase a home or purchase a car—you know what?—we’d probably love to see all the internal correspondence and all the emails back and forth to family members or to others or to brokers or to lawyers about it, to understand the other side’s position. That undermines negotiation. That is all that the Minister of Energy did. He raised flag after flag after flag about the potential danger of this, and the opposition said, “We don’t care. We want the documents.”

Madam Speaker, today is not about the fact that we raised these flags. It’s about the fact that we complied with the request of the opposition.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: And they have the documents.

Hon. John Milloy: They have the documents. There is an attestation that they have the documents. We have met every single requirement that has been put forward by the Standing Committee on Estimates. As far as we are concerned and as far as I’m concerned, Madam Speaker, this matter is over.

I have to say again that I’m saddened by what we’re seeing from the opposition, because I think what we’re seeing is a whole trail, a whole symptom of something that seems very wrong with the way in which they are approaching the Legislature. We only have to go back to the spring, where we spent hour after hour after hour listening to bells ringing instead of debating some important issues of the day. We only have to go back to a party whose leader and others stood up and said they were going to vote against the budget before the budget was even brought forward.

Madam Speaker, this is not about me. This is not about the Liberal Party versus the Progressive Conservative Party. What this is about is the traditions of this Legislature. It’s about the fact that we recognize that each of us are honourable members who are doing our best; that each of us, when we stand in this place, when we appear in front of committee, when we table correspondence in this House, that it reflects the truth. It’s about the fact that we have met all the requests by the Standing Committee on Estimates, we have met the ruling of the Speaker, and it’s time to put this matter against us.

Madam Speaker, we are going to be voting against this motion. We are going to vote against it because it is irrelevant, because the fact of the matter is that there was a breach in this House in the sense that the committee of estimates asked for these documents, but that breach has been repaired.

Madam Speaker, I’m going to end where I began, by talking about my colleague the Minister of Energy: the hard work that he has done in a number of portfolios, the outstanding service that he has done to this Legislature. And you know what, Madam Speaker? He joins members on all sides of this House, because when I look at all sides of this House, I do see outstanding members who have served, and I’m not afraid to say that because I have not become so overtaken by the partisan, vicious, vindictive spirit that we’re seeing in the opposition.

The fact of the matter is, Madam Speaker, this is a very simple situation. Documents were requested, flags were raised, a debate and discussion ensued, but those documents in their entirety have been provided to this Legislature. Madam Speaker, it’s time to put this matter before us. It’s time to acknowledge and support the traditions of hundreds and hundreds of years of parliamentary traditions that have been built on this House. It’s time to honour the spirit of leaders like Bill Davis and John Robarts, and it’s time to move on.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Further debate?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Where to begin? Speaker, I spent last evening having a look at one of the packets of documents. In fact, many of the 36,000 documents that were provided, Speaker—I am here to tell you—are blank pages.

Let me give you a few examples from what we call “Mississauga file 23 of 33.” Now, there is some very interesting reading here. Despite what the House leader opposite—despite his insistence that we have all of the documents, let me give you a couple of examples, Speaker. I might take 15 or so minutes to do this.

The email here, dated August 22, 2011:

“Re the Greenfield South project issue note:

“On the rest of the topics, you said you needed material on”—well, then the rest has all been blacked out, or whited out, I should say. “Sorry I couldn’t get this to you sooner. Hope it helps....” It doesn’t help us, Speaker. There’s nothing on page 1.

Let’s go to page 2, then. The topic again is “Briefing notes.” “Here is what I have so far,” it says. Dash, dash—it’s all whited out, all the way down. “Thanks for your time.”

The next document, Speaker—these are all in the order we received them, and it’s a random pile. There’s a slide deck here—a very interesting slide deck, I might add. It’s called “Greenfield South Site Options.” Let’s see what some of the site options are. “Option 3”—I’m sorry; it’s a blank page.

Let me see. The next slide—sorry, Speaker; it’s whited out. It says, “Ministry of Energy,” and it has also been whited out.

All right, on November 10—let’s have a look at November 10. It’s about the minister’s letter that’s attached. They’re looking for the minister’s signature. So let’s go to the next letter and see the letter—oh, sorry, Speaker; it was blank.

Let’s take a look here at the letter they are bringing that says here, on November 10, that they’re comfortable with the products to hand to Minister Bentley to facilitate his review, in case it’s needed over the weekend. Let’s have a look at the product they provided. Oh, sorry, Speaker; it’s also blank.

Let’s have a look here. “They would like to commence a dialogue with you on the most appropriate way to allocate the compensation between the OPA and the crown.” Great; that’s going to be the next letter. Blank.

“In response to your attached letter”—blank.

Speaker, you can see the theme that I will continue on for another 10 or so minutes. It completely exposes the House leader’s comment—his insistence—that we have received all documents.

Let’s have a look here. Oh, this one’s interesting. Rebecca just handed me an envelope addressed to Minister Bentley, and it says, “Hi” so-and-so. “We’d like to show you the letters as they currently stand.” Let’s look at the—oh, sorry, Speaker; the letters are both here. They’re blank.

Let’s move on a little later in the day now, 2:48 that same afternoon. “The energy minister’s letter is also attached.” Let’s read it, then. Oh, sorry, Speaker; it’s blank.

We can go to the next page. This is all in order off the thumb disk that they gave us. “Confidential and privileged draft for discussion:

“Dear Minister”—blank.

“Confidential and privileged”—this one has a new sentence—“in contemplation of litigation: Draft for discussion.”

Interjection: Blank.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Blank. All right; I’m sure we’re getting somewhere here, Speaker.

“The energy letter mirrors the new language not to proceed with the contract.” Let’s look at that letter. That should be—oh, sorry, Speaker. I can’t tell you; it’s blank.

Here’s another one, the next one in order: “In light of this, the logical next step appears to be to notify Greenfield South that the OPA will not be proceeding with the contract.” Good; let’s look at that—oh, sorry, Speaker; I apologize. It’s blank.

“While full recognition must be given to the ratepayer value and the fair treatment of contractual compartment, as suggested in your letter”—let’s look at that letter, Speaker. That should be—oh, I’m sorry; it’s blank.

Speaker, we’re getting it. Hang on, now. “We need to know about the energy letter to the OPA by 4 p.m. The main change”—and it goes on to describe what’s coming up in the letter. Oh, sorry, Speaker; the letter—it’s nothing.

It’s a little later yet in the day—3:17 now. This is all from the same day. “The energy letter mirrors the new language”—oh, good. Let’s look at the new language, Speaker. Oh, sorry; it’s blank.

Let’s have a peek here. “Last evening, at a meeting with the Premier’s office, there was a reference to the gas plant”—oh, the next page. Sorry, Speaker; it’s blank.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Thank you. Would you please take your seat.

It is 10:15, and just before we recess, I want to inform the House about the meeting time structure. We will recess now until 10:30. Debate will continue until 11:30, at which time we will recess until 3 p.m. Debate will then continue until 6 p.m., at which time we will adjourn until 9 a.m. tomorrow.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Point of order, Speaker.

The Acting Chair (Mrs. Julia Munro): A point of order.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I think that’s great that we are recessing, because probably by 10:30, all of those blank pages that Mr. Fedeli—

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): That’s not a point of order. Thank you. This House stands recessed until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

Hon. John Gerretsen: Point of order, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Attorney General on a point of order.

Hon. John Gerretsen: I know that this is a somewhat unusual day, but I would like to take this opportunity to introduce a number of people from Kingston that are here today for Kingston Advocacy Day. I would hope that all the members of the Legislature on all sides would be able to join us in the committee rooms on the second floor to taste some of the hospitality from the Kingston area. Remember, Kingston was the home of Sir John A. Macdonald, our first Prime Minister, and the home of Oliver Mowat, the longest-serving Premier of this province.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: And home of John Gerretsen.

Hon. John Gerretsen: That’s right.

Welcoming them today—and they’re just coming in—I’d like to introduce Mayor Mark Gerretsen and Councillors Rick Downes, Jeff Scott, Sandy Berg, Liz Schell, Dorothy Hector, Brian Reitzel and Bryan Paterson.

As well, we have a number of people from the city of Kingston utilities staff, including Gerard Hunt, who’s the CAO of the city of Kingston. We have members here from the chamber of commerce. We also have Chris Whyman here, the world champion town crier, who has been town-crying in the Kingston area for 25 years; members from Queen’s University, St. Lawrence College—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): In a normal routine, that would not be a point of order. It is, even under these circumstances, not a point of order. I thank the member for his lengthy introduction and recognize that under these circumstances we are to move right into the continuation—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): On a point of order from the member from Parkdale–High Park.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Just on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to welcome Runnymede Public School to the House: one of the best public schools in the world. Great to have you here.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I think I’ve opened up a Pandora’s box, because I believe the member from Etobicoke Centre has a point of order as well.

Mrs. Donna H. Cansfield: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a point of order. I would like to welcome Mr. Kerry Adler from SkyPower, and Hando Kang, who used to work with us in the Legislature.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I appreciate that. I’m sure that the member from Ajax–Pickering has a point of order that is going to be quick.

Mr. Joe Dickson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will certainly do as you direct. I’m pleased to introduce to you directors of Nation at Prayer with us this morning: Neil Hodgson, Brenda Hodgson, Mel Finlay and Susan Finlay. Thank you for your leniency, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): In the spirit of fair play, if there are members who want to finish this non-point of order, please do so.

I thank all members for their patience. We do welcome our guests and try to do our best to encourage them to be here, so thank you all for being here.

It is now time for further debate. The member from Nipissing.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Thank you, Speaker. In the 14 minutes I have remaining, I will continue where I started. I picked up a pile this morning of the documents that the Liberal House leader said contains all of the files that we asked for. This is called “Mississauga, 23 of 33.”

Let me read from some of these all-inclusive files that have exposed everything to us. “August 22: Greenfield South project issue note”—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. I want to start right away. Your member is speaking and I want to make sure I focus on that, so let’s keep that down. I also ask that we are very respectful under these circumstances to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to say what they need to say. I think that would be very encouraging for all of us.

The member from Nipissing: Continue, please.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: “Greenfield South project issue note:

“On the rest of the topics, you said you needed material on”—Speaker, I’m sorry; the rest of it has been whited out. “Sorry I couldn’t get this to you sooner. Hope it helps at some point.” Well, not very helpful when it has been whited out.

Here’s another one, the next day. “Here is what I have so far”—dash, whited out, dash, whited out, dash, whited out—“Hope this helps.”

Let’s look at the slide show. They’ve got a slide deck here, Speaker, that’s very informative. It’s called “Greenfield South site options.” This should be very interesting. There should be some very good site options here. Oh—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Prince Edward–Hastings, come to order.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Let’s look at the next page. Oh, sorry, Speaker, it has been whited out. We can’t get to that.

Let’s start on the correspondence; perhaps we’ll get into something here. “Last evening at a meeting with the Premier’s office, there was reference to a gas plant.” That should be an interesting letter; let’s look at it. Oh, sorry, Speaker, it has been blanked out.

“See the Attorney General’s comment. Attached is the first letter.” Now we’re getting somewhere. We’re going to get the first letter. Oh, sorry, Speaker, it’s blank.

These are all in order, off the thumb disk we received from the House leader.

“As discussed, here is the draft document.” Finally, Speaker, we’re going—oh, I’m sorry, it’s blank. Well, I don’t know what to say.

Oh, good. “Here is what we just sent up. Please see the Attorney General’s comment below.” Now we’re—oh sorry, Speaker, it’s blank.

Oh, this is good. Now we’ve got somewhere. These are all in order of how we received them. This is a contract between Greenfield South Power and Ontario Power Authority. Oh, sorry, Speaker, it’s blank.

Oh, that one’s blank.

Okay. The next letter here “constitutes confidential information.” Oh, this is going to be a good one. Hang on a second—oh, Speaker, it’s blank.

Let’s see. What have we got here? This one is kind of fun. “Minister Bentley wants finance and cabinet behind him, as you heard last evening, and is still waiting for some indication from the PO redirection.” Oh, good. That’s in the next letter here. Oh. It’s been blanked out.

“The proposed letter from the minister to the OPA”—oh, sorry, Speaker, it’s blank.

Next in order—these are absolutely in order: “In response to the local community’s concerns about the Greenfield South generation station, the government has committed to relocate the plant.” Now we’re into the contract, and—oh, Speaker, it’s blank.

The next letter: “As per my earlier discussion with Carolyn, the draft letters”—oh, good, we’re going to see them. “The government has stated its intention to relocate the plant. We’re still awaiting word on whether the letter can be sent tonight.” Well, let’s look—oh, Speaker, the letter is blank.

“Hi. Just a heads-up that I told Mike”—hang on, Speaker. We’ve got it here. “I just told Mike the proposed letter to the OPA is with the minister for”—oh, Speaker, it’s blank.

“Carolyn,” whoever that is, “as you know, the minister is looking for paper comfort from his colleagues on exposure. Can you please tell me the options available for us on what paper it could be, i.e. cabinet minutes, treasury board order, letter from Dwight”—pardon me for using the first name—“etc., and the pros and cons associated. Deputy, can you please loop in with” so-and-so “on the options?” We’re going to see the options now. Ah, they’re blank.

This next person, she’s working on her response attached. Oh, sorry, the attached response is blank.

“Will you likely want to see our advice re: the energy minister’s office before we send this letter?” Oh, sorry, Speaker, the letter is blank.

“I’ve been talking with Craig and Murray about the issue.” Let’s look at the discussion. It’s been whited out. You’re starting to see a theme here, I sense, Speaker.

“Told him we were drafting an extra couple of sentences for the minister’s letter and would share. He encouraged us to move as quickly as possible.” Well, I’ll move as quickly as possible to the letter. It’s blank.

Speaker, these are right off the thumb disk, unchanged. This is the pile I printed last night.

Further to the House leader’s insistence that we have all the documents, let me carry on.

“Craig asked that the minister’s letter to the OPA”—good, we’re going to see that; I know we’re going to see it next—“include a sentence about engaging with his colleagues in any discussion re: the OPA compensation to allay Minister Bentley’s concerns.” Well, let’s look at—sorry, Speaker; his concerns are blank.

“We have advised all around that we’ll be sending this revised proposed letter to the DAG for review.” I’d like to review it here for all the members. I’m sorry; it’s blank.

Finally, Speaker, we actually do have it this time. This is the sentence that Minister Bentley went through all this hidden document—we now know the one sentence they have approved, that they have not whited out, whether by accident or not. It says, underlined in bold, “I will be engaging my colleagues in any dialogue with you on the most appropriate way to allocate compensation between the OPA and the crown.” Days upon days upon days of hidden documents here to hide what that sentence used to say. On the next page, sadly, we don’t know what he was going to say because it’s blank.

Speaker, you’ve obviously sensed my frustration here that—

Interjection.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: You want me to add a little bit more? Well, here, Speaker. The new sentence suggests that the colleagues will actually be in the dialogue with the OPA. Now they’re refuting that sentence. Maybe that’s okay. If not, how about—well, let’s see about—sorry, Speaker; it’s blank.

There are pros and cons to the reference to talking to others. “Any thoughts on your end?” Sorry, Speaker. I can’t show you.

So-and-so had concerns re the letter might make its way into public domain. We can see now why some of these have been blanked out. Here’s what would make it into public domain: There’s nothing here. I’m sorry, Speaker; there’s nothing here.

We now come to a page from the Ontario Power Authority. Speaker, I’d like to show it to you, but the end of it, sorry, is blank. In the remaining six minutes, maybe I’ll show just a couple more to get the general theme here. “Joseph, this draft is”—this is about that sentence again. They’re still not quite happy with the wording of that sentence. “This draft is the latest version of the proposed letter from the minister.” Well, let’s have ourselves a little look. Oh, sorry, Speaker. It’s blank. “This is the draft, Rick”—but it may not be completely there.

Let’s look at something a little more simple now. It’s a slide deck. This should be normal, right? This is the Greenfield South slide options. This is a different set than the first one I showed you. Oh, sorry, Speaker. The PowerPoint here has been whited out. I don’t know why. I can’t imagine why.

In the remaining time I have left—another blank OPA contract. Oh, good. We’ve got something. Seriously, we do have. “This is the draft, but it may not completely agree with the third option.” What’s the third option? Oh, sorry, Speaker; it’s blank.

“I understand the deputy minister wants to walk a deck into the meeting. I’ve built a version you’ve sent me.” Let’s have a look: “Please see attached.” It’s blank. This one here is blank; blank. That one, I don’t know why. I understand they’ve had a look at it and provided input, so this is the input, Speaker. It’s blank.

One more just to sort of round it all out, Speaker.

Interjection.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I don’t know. It’s just a blank page. It’s in the middle of a slide deck, but Speaker, as you can imagine, it’s blank.

“One comment re: slide five”: I wonder what that comment is? It’s blank.

Speaker, you could imagine our disgust with these documents.

The machines that provide the whiteout must have missed one or two pages. In the remaining four minutes, let me just run you through a little discussion about $5 million that’s been discovered here: “Regarding the proposed payment of the $5.23 million over time under the NUG contract”—the non-utility generator—“we are okay with the idea”—you’ll see where I’m going with this, Speaker—“but we’re hoping we could reduce the period to 12 months.” So they’ve got a payment here. Oh, look who it’s to. This is very interesting. This payment is from the Ontario Power Authority to Eastern Power.

We knew that the closed power plant in Mississauga was $180 million. Then, the finance minister corrected and said, “No, no, no. There’s a $10-million contract here. It’s really $190 million.”

Well, let me tell you what both the finance minister and the energy minister did not want us to know. I’ll read this: “In the meantime, I have already asked” so-and-so “to prepare a first cut of the side letter to deal with the assignment of a NUG contract and the proposed adjustment to the monthly payment to reflect the additional compensation to Eastern Power above the $10-million payment from the OEFC.”

Speaker, there’s an additional $5-million bill from this government that they did not disclose to us. So they’re asking the solicitor, “Rocco, can you confirm that you have run by Carl the concept of the $10 million upfront”—that was announced by the minister—“and the other $5 million through the NUG? This will not come as a surprise, right?” His answer is, “Yes, I have.” You can see why all those other documents were whited out; I can’t imagine how this one snuck through.

He understands that only $10 million is coming from the OEFC, and the balance will come from a NUG contract. “He pushed for an upfront payment, but I told them we would have a problem accounting for an upfront payment and would prefer an adder to the monthly capacity payment to account for the differential settlement amount.” And this is done in what they call a “side letter.” It’s a side letter all right, Speaker.

I’ve got to admit, they actually dug a little deeper with a very important question. They asked, “Is the NUG needed for the system? Do we need that fuel? Do we need that power for the system? Do you know?” The answer that came back is, “The NUG is not needed.” This is $5 million more for yet more unneeded power.

This is one example from all of the 36,000 pages which we’ve had only time to go through a fraction of, Speaker. We’ve only been able to go through a fraction. We found at least 1,000 blank pages in the ones that I’ve looked at and our team has looked at. We found $5 million so far in only a few pages.

But we’ve also determined it’s not $40 million as they claim. We’ve got $200 million, in their own words, for additional transmission. If we move the plant out of Oakville, we need a transmission solution within Oakville. They still need transmission—$200 million more, and $210 million for the turbines that they’re going to pay still an astronomical price for. That’s $450 million, not $40 million for Oakville. Add that to the $190 million for Mississauga. Rounded off, we’re talking—

Interjection.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Oh, $195 million—$650 million spent to not even generate one megawatt of power.

Speaker, you can see why we need to pursue this.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Before we move to further debate, I want to remind everyone that we do not make any reference to someone’s absence. That is the tradition of this place.

Further debate.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: As was outlined quite interestingly by the previous speaker, it has become very clear that, within the documents that the government decided to release, there are numerous unexplained redactions, omissions and exclusions. Some of the documents refer to correspondence which isn’t even included in the package of materials that the government released. For example, emails note that communication strategies are being approved by the Premier’s office, but then there’s no correspondence from the Premier’s office that was included in the package.

There’s a surprising lack of correspondence from individuals such as the energy minister in the package. It kind of seems odd that this is a file whose responsibility lies with the energy minister, and yet there are pretty much no documents from the Minister of Energy in the package. Presumably, the Minister of Energy would have corresponded with someone at some point about some of the significant decisions that were being made in his ministry. Throughout the documents, passages are redacted without any explanation whatsoever.

These are some of the things that we put together in a letter that we provided to you this morning, Speaker, indicating that we were quite concerned with what appears to be yet again this government’s refusal to provide the information requested at committee.

The government stated that the letters would be written by both the Minister of Energy and the CEO of the Ontario Power Authority attesting to the fact that all responsive records have been delivered without redaction or omission. In fact, we didn’t receive those letters with the package. I understand we received them a little bit later, a little bit afterwards; it was one of those “oops” moments, but nonetheless, the package that we received yesterday was not a complete package on all kinds of different measures.

It’s really clear that what the government did was simply throw out enough volume of pages at Ontarians—just throw them out there at everybody—hoping that nobody would realize that, in fact, there were no documents from the minister opposite—no documents from the minister’s office; no documents from the Premier’s office—in that package; nothing in the package from the Liberal campaign team. Yet these are all relevant pieces of information that should have been included with the package—none of the documents that explain why the government decided to stick hard-working Ontarians with the bill for hundreds of millions of dollars just in order to save a couple of Liberal seats.

In the documents released yesterday, it’s really clear that the cancellation of the gas plants will require much, much more money to be spent. It’s not my money; it’s not the government’s money—it’s the people’s money. It’s the people’s money that they are spending to save their own seats.

OPA documents that were released yesterday make it very clear that the $40 million the government paid TransCanada for the Liberals’ Oakville seat-saver program is just the tip of the iceberg. Document after document refers to the extra $200 million that the government will have to pay for transmission upgrades that will now have to be undertaken to keep the lights on in the Oakville area.

How does this government justify wasting well over $250 million—again, not of my money and not of their money, but of the people’s money—to advance their own self-interested political agenda? How do they justify that?

Let’s add up what we already know: $40 million for TransCanada fixed costs and legal fees; $200 million in Oakville transmission upgrades; $190 million to cancel the Mississauga gas plant just days before people went to the polls in the 2011 election.

Documents released also show a government that is desperately trying to find a new location for the Oakville plant. That’s what they show when you look through the documents—a desperate attempt to find a new spot to move that plant to or to now build that plant at. They first looked at Nanticoke. Then they looked at Kitchener–Waterloo. Then they looked at Napanee.

Did the government actually decide on Napanee because a plant is actually needed there? Or did they decide on Napanee simply because it was the last possible location left that it could offer to TransCanada in order to avoid hundreds of millions of dollars more in payments?

According to the documents, Nanticoke was ruled out for a location in part because the loss of electricity from transporting it 100 kilometres to the western GTA didn’t make sense. Excuse me, but Napanee is 250 kilometres from the western GTA. The current plant there only operates one day a month, and there is no mention at all of the need for a new plant in Napanee in the government’s long-term energy strategy. Their long-term energy plan does not even talk about the need for a plant in Napanee or in that area of the province. So it looks like moving the plant to Lennox was absolutely a desperate last resort.

Rather than a decision that was based on cost efficiency, good electricity planning or any kind of rational process whatsoever, it was only done as a desperate last resort to try to avoid even more of the people’s money being spent on the Liberal seat-saver plan.

We know that those dollars, those hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, could have been better invested for the people of this province. We could have used their money for much better purposes. Nothing personal against the seats that got saved; nothing personal against those members who happen to have benefited from those hundreds of millions of dollars, those Liberal MPPs—it’s not personal against them.

But I would think the people of this province would want their dollars invested in the kinds of things that actually matter to them, that actually make life better for them, because really, that’s what we’re supposed to be here doing as elected officials in the province of Ontario. That’s what we’re supposed to be addressing—the problems, the needs, the concerns and the worries of the people of Ontario, not the political fortunes, the political well-being of the five or six MPPs who were able to get their seats saved by that massive investment of public dollars. It’s a shame.

Yesterday we were talking about the ONTC, Ontario Northland. We were talking about the fact that there are young people, students, who, for the first time, are going to need to travel home for Thanksgiving dinner, for Thanksgiving weekend with their families, who are now not going to be able to take the train to do that because the Liberals would rather spend hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars—they think it’s funny. Speaker, they’re actually laughing across the way.

I hear the Attorney General laughing about this. Somehow it’s funny that these students are not going to be able to take the train home on Thanksgiving weekend for their visits with their families because, instead of investing—what is it?—$10 million?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Fourteen.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: —$14 million on the ONTC, they would rather spend—what?—$300 million, $400 million on saving Liberal seats: $600 million?

Mr. Paul Miller: Six hundred million.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: It is really unbelievable. It is an unbelievable choice and decision that this cynical, cynical government has made.

But those numbers really pale in comparison to what we know this government is capable of, and I think that is the crux of the matter here. The government has basically demonstrated, in its behaviour yesterday and the documents that they released, that they have no commitment to, no willingness to and no sense of obligation to be open and transparent with the people of this province. They don’t think that they have any responsibility to provide documents that are requested by the members of this Legislature. I think that’s the worst part of this entire story. It’s not even the dollars; it’s the lows that this government will sink to for its own political benefit.

Let’s not forget: This is a party that was first elected on a message of change, on a promise of transparency, a promise of change and a promise of putting people first. They are obviously so engaged in the cynical political games that they used to crow against that they have no actual resemblance to the party that ran to first get elected to govern this province years ago. It is so, so obvious that they have completely, completely lost their way.

You know what? The saddest part of that is that this tired, out-of-gas government has been ignoring, while they’re taking care of their own couple of members, the families in this province, the very people who are paying the freight for that seat-saver program.

Those are the people who are being ignored: people who are struggling to pay the bills, people who are still having a hard time dealing with the aftermath of the recession and those folks who used to earn a decent wage and are now struggling to make ends meet on half the salary that they used to bring home, those same people who are actually paying the highest electricity bills in the country.

They’re paying the highest electricity bills in the country for one simple reason, Speaker: It’s because this government is intent and has been intent upon penning these private power deals with these private power interests, and that’s what’s driving electricity costs up in the province of Ontario. Private power costs more.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m sorry for the interruption, but I’m starting to hear too much sidebar activity, and I’d ask them to stop it.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): And the member from Durham, not only being in his seat, is talking in the middle of my conversation again. I’m asking for control.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I see the clock, and I don’t need to be reminded. She will get the time. Thank you.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Private power costs more. It actually costs more—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew does not start up when I finish.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Not only does it cost more, but by the very nature of the fact that it’s private companies that provide it, it actually hides information and the facts from the people. These private power deals are structured to actually hide information from the public, Speaker. That is why it is the wrong way to go when it comes to our electricity system.

In fact, when we used to have a public electricity system in Ontario, our electricity rates were very, very, very competitive—very competitive. Our people in this province, our households, our homeowners, were not paying the highest electricity rates in the country. We are now, now that we have private power in Ontario. The industrial sector, the manufacturing sector, the mining sector and the forestry sector weren’t paying the highest electricity rates in the country. They are now. Maybe that’s why we don’t have any manufacturing left. Maybe that’s why forestry is devastated.

Maybe that’s why we have such a problem with our economy: because the electricity bills are uncompetitive. That’s what has happened under this government’s watch.

Speaker, in Canada, there are all kinds of different electricity rates, as we know. But in Ontario, we pay about double of what they pay in the adjacent provinces—let’s say Manitoba—and we pay more than double of what they’re paying in Quebec. It’s absolutely unacceptable—absolutely unacceptable.

As I said off the top, the government promised change and yet they’re delivering more of the same. They were elected on an idea, on a plan to make all contracts public. In fact, in this House during question period, a number of times, I’ve raised the quotes that the Premier used to speak, talking about the fact that contracts would be public, that they believed in transparency, that they believed that the people had the right to know. Well, Speaker, we believe that the people have the right to know, and that’s why we’re in the process that we’re in today. That’s why we’re having this conversation.

That’s why we’re taking this extraordinary action right now, just to get the basic information to the people of this province, the people who are actually paying the bill.

Now, we’ve only had a couple of hours to look at the documents, and we know that there are many, many omissions already, so we’re going to continue to pore through those documents. But I think the biggest concern that we have is that the government is going to conclude that, notwithstanding all of this work that we’re going to be doing—they still think it was an appropriate way to respond. That’s the thing that I find worrisome.

Today, we heard the government’s comments already, and we’ll be hearing more of their comments in the debate. I look forward to that. I hope the people of this province have a chance to tune in to hear what Liberals have to say about their behaviour, because my worry is, from what I’ve heard already, that what they’re trying to do is somehow blame this side of the House for this awful mess. They’re trying to somehow say that us doing our due diligence as an opposition party, doing what we’re supposed to do—which is hold the government to account, which is to get the information that we need to hold the government to account—is somehow the wrong thing to do.

How does that make sense, Speaker? How does it make sense that us doing our job, holding the government to account—actually, just simply reminding them about what they used to think: that contracts should be available to the public, open and transparent. We’re just doing our job, yet I understand—and I fear—that the government is somehow indicating that we’re doing something inappropriate, that we’re doing something harmful, that we’re doing something wrong. I think what that government really needs is a big mirror on this side so that they can look themselves in the face and decide what it is that they’re here for. Are they here for themselves in that mirror or are they here for the people?

What we’ve seen, unfortunately, for two years now is a government trying to hide the information, trying to prevent the information from coming out. Two years down the road, we saw yesterday the government continuing with that same direction. They have tried every trick in the book to prevent the information from coming out. They’ve tried every trick in the book to avoid the disclosure of the documents.

I only hope, for the people of the province, as we go through the debate on this motion and these amendments over the next little while, that we have a government that shows a little bit of humility and takes a little bit of responsibility for the way that they’ve behaved, because it is not parliamentary to prevent information from getting to a member who has requested it. That’s the end of the story. It is against the traditions, the history and the rules of this Legislature. That’s the conversation we’ll likely be having, once this motion goes through the House and gets into committee.

But I have to say that I’m a little bit concerned, notwithstanding the process that we are seized with now, that we will still, at the end of the day, have a government that refuses to acknowledge what their obligation was. That, for me, is the most frightening piece of all. When these kinds of things happen—they don’t happen often; they happen quite rarely. But when they happen, they should be reminding not only the sitting government but any governments in waiting of what the proper way to behave in this Legislature is and what the proper respect that is due the members of this Legislature looks like.

I think in their arrogance, in their many years in power, they forgot. They forgot that they actually have an obligation to the other members as well as to this Legislative Assembly and to the people of this province.

They were elected on a promise of change. They’ve been delivering more of the same old politics. They were elected on a promise to make contracts public; they’re not doing it. They were elected on a promise to keep electricity affordable. That’s not happening either; we have the highest rates in Canada. They were elected on a promise to take the politics out of power. I think this day shows very clearly that that’s the last thing they’ve done. They have certainly not taken the politics out of power.

We’re going to be continuing to talk to this motion for the next little while, but I want to end by saying that it gives me no pleasure to be having this conversation. It gives me no pleasure. It gives me a great deal of disappointment and a great deal of concern, because when a government stoops to this kind of low, we have big, big problems in this province—big, big problems. Hopefully, through the committee process and through this debate, we’ll be able to solve some of them.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Hon. John Gerretsen: Let me first of all start off by saying, on a comment that the leader of the third party just made, I have always worked on the assumption that we are all here, on all sides of the House, for the people of Ontario. That is the way it has been and that is the way it’s going to be.

When you look at the advances that have been made in our health care system over the last eight years, in our educational system over the last eight years; when you look at the number of people who now have—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Let me start right away. Quite frankly—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Transportation, come to order.

I want to start right away—stop the clock, please. Sorry.

I want to start right away by indicating to you that my expectation is the same as I said at the very beginning: I want to hear everybody. There were very few comments being made while each of the members from each party spoke, from the government side, and that includes the person who just said “yes.” I’m not here to be referee. I’m asking you to carefully give consideration to all the comments that are being made in a respectful way. And yes, there are temptations to make comment, but this is not the spot to do that, and I will be forceful on this.

Attorney General?

Hon. John Gerretsen: Thank you very much, Speaker.

I’m going to take a somewhat different approach than what they are probably expecting. If they just listen for a moment, then I will try to enunciate what I think about this whole thing.

There have been significant advances made in our health care system—the number of people who have a family doctor now—the fact that we’ve got smaller class sizes in the educational field; the fact that so many more students are going to university and college—these are all positive moves.

Now, let me also say that I have always worked on the theory that I respect each and every member in this—

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: On a point of order.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Point of order from the member from Nepean–Carleton.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Thank you very much, Speaker. In the standing orders, it’s very clear that when a member is to debate a motion or a government motion or a government bill or a private member’s bill, the member is expected to speak to the matter at hand, and in this case, we’re talking about contempt of—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I am listening very carefully for the direction of the debate—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): While I’m standing and while I’m speaking, I’m not supposed to hear anyone else making comments.

I’m sure the member will get to the motion.

Hon. John Gerretsen: Perhaps the previous speaker or interrupter didn’t realize what I said. I said I respect every member of this House. We may see the world a little bit differently, we may see the solutions to the issues a little bit differently, but each and every one of us brings something to the table from which the government, from which the people of Ontario can benefit in the long run. That’s always been my approach and that will continue to be my approach. I will not get involved in any personal attacks. I don’t think I ever have here in 17 years. I don’t intend to start now.

I also think this is a highly unusual day. I’m sure some of the other people who have been here since 1995 or before can’t quite recall a day quite like this. I’m sure that the people of Ontario would prefer to have us be in question period right now where the opposition can truly hold the government accountable on an issue-by-issue basis, which is important.

All the points that were made this morning, all the points that have been made eloquently by the official opposition and by the third party, have been made here, I would say, for the last three or four months on a day-to-day basis. So what I’m interested in is how we move forward from this.

A lot of the members may not realize, but this debate can, in effect, go on for the next two to three years because everybody can speak 20 minutes to every motion, to the motion itself; every member can move an amendment; there can be no more than two amendments on the floor at any one time, and you can spend another 20 minutes. So this could literally go on for years. That is the reality of the situation. So how do we move forward?

I can remember a day—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order, please.

Hon. John Gerretsen: It’ll be your turn to speak a little bit later on.

How do we move forward? Sooner or later, Speaker, the House leaders will have to get together and resolve this issue. That’s the only way we can move forward. I’m sure the people that are watching this are saying, “Are these people really dealing, on all sides of the House, with the real issues that affect us on a day-to-day basis?”

There are many issues that affect people, particularly the most vulnerable in our society, that we should be addressing here on an ongoing basis, and we’re not doing that.

Why don’t we invoke the memory of such great House leaders as Bob Welch and Tom Wells or—who did we have over there?—Stephen Lewis, and even, yes, your Bob Rae at the time, or Sean Conway and Jim Bradley. These people were able to work in a co-operative way to get us out of this kind of mess. Right now, all we’re doing collectively, by keeping this debate going day after day after day, is shutting out the people of Ontario from the real issues that happen.

There are a number of—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order, please. I’m not going to stop trying.

Attorney General.

Hon. John Gerretsen: There are a number of former mayors, councillors and school board representatives here, and even some of the new members who have just arrived here, who could tell you that, quite frankly, the level of debate that takes place at most of our municipal councils and our school boards across this province is a heck of a lot better than most of the debate that takes place here. Everybody walks in with their talking points, and you’ve got your talking points and you’ve got your—

Interjection.

Hon. John Gerretsen: Yes, we have our talking points. I’ve got no talking points here at all, by the way. I’ve got no talking points here at all; okay?

All I know, Speaker, is that for the benefit of the people of Ontario, this issue has to be resolved, and however we resolve it in the long run ultimately will be judged by the people of Ontario whenever the next election takes place. Whether you like it or not, the people—last October 6, was it?—have spoken. They elected us back into government—with a minority; I realize that. Being in a minority government, we should be working collectively between all the three parties to come up with the best possible policies. Speaker, what I’m quite frankly saying is, I would implore the House leaders to get together as soon as possible to get us out of this current situation.

You have all known the Minister of Energy, those of you who have been here for eight years, as an honourable individual, in the same way that he regards each and every one of you as an honourable individual. He is an honourable individual and there’s no question about that. He has served this province as Attorney General—my current capacity—for four years. He has been an outstanding practising lawyer in the London area. He has opened law clinics. He has taught at the law school in London etc. He is an individual of the highest integrity, in the same way that each and every one of you is of the highest integrity.

Having said all that, we can all get very sanctimonious, and we all get the partisan concerns involved in all of this; I realize that. You think you’ve got a good issue and you’re going to keep pounding it. In the meantime, the business of the province of Ontario, for the people of Ontario, simply isn’t being carried on, and that, I find, is a real shame.

I would dare say that there hasn’t been a government anywhere that couldn’t have done some things a little bit better, whether it was the 42 years of the Tory reign or the five years of the Bob Rae government. Things can always be done a little bit better.

There’s no question about it: From hindsight, the two plants in Mississauga and Oakville never should have been approved. I think there’s common agreement by everybody on that. You said so during the election campaign; we said so during the election campaign. The reality is, it has now been moved—by the way, not to the Napanee area. It’s Bath, actually, where it’s going to, or Loyalist township. That’s where the plant is actually going to.

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: They don’t know their geography.

Interjection: It’s Greater Napanee.

Hon. John Gerretsen: Well, it’s Greater Napanee. It’s Greater Napanee. I think I can see the stacks of the current Lennox station from my house, actually, across the lake, but that’s totally immaterial.

Speaker, we all come here to do the best that we can for our own communities. I sometimes wish that we could leave our partisan attitudes at the door on all sides—on all sides—and start dealing with the real issues that we face in this province.

It’s your role to hold us accountable. I don’t have any, any issue or problem with that at all. You have to hold us accountable. I still think that the best way and the parliamentary way in which a government is held accountable is on a day-to-day basis during question period. So I would strongly suggest, if for no other reason, that the House leaders resolve this issue or try to resolve this issue so that you can continue to hold us accountable during question period.

I see my good friend from Oxford there. He and I were both, many years ago, in another life or, as my son, the mayor out there refers to it—the mayor of Kingston is here, by the way, Mark—“It’s so long ago, it was the Stone Age.” But, you know, we worked collectively. He saw things a little bit differently from me, but somehow, we were able to collectively advance the aspects, advance the interests of municipal government etc. I sometimes wish that we had that same kind of attitude in here.

I’ve been on that side. I know how frustrating it can be. I was there for eight years. I understand totally how you feel, believe it or not. Let me also say it is very easy to criticize everything. You can always find a reason to criticize something. It’s the same thing with you folks: You always find a reason. You can always find a reason to criticize something. There’s no reason about it. Now, to actually do something and have it benefit the people of Ontario, that is something totally different.

I think we have shown as a government, over the last eight to nine years, that the people of Ontario have benefitted from the good, positive government that the McGuinty government has brought to the province of Ontario in so many, many different areas.

Those folks over there in the official opposition, they will tell you that if we just cut taxes, it’s going to resolve all the issues in the world. What they never say at the same time—and to me, it ain’t rocket science—is that if you cut taxes and you have fewer resources, you’re going to have fewer services. They’ve never told us what they’re actually going to cut. Are they going to cut health care? Are they going to cut education? Are they going to cut environmental rules and regulations? I could just go on and on and on.

Those folks over there, they’re kind-hearted folks, too, the New Democrats—although quite often, they sound like the old democrats. The progressive attitude that they used to have doesn’t seem to be there anymore. As far as they’re concerned, all the problems can be resolved if we just tax people more. I don’t know what the ultimate limit is, to what level people should be taxed, but, “We can do anything we can if we just get more money from people.”

What we’ve brought to this province over the last eight to nine years and will continue to do in the future is a balanced approach. There’s a balance in everything and there should be a balance in the way we deal with issues as well.

Look, we’re all part of a team. You’re part of your team; you’re part of your team; I’m part of this team. On an individual basis, there may be the odd decision that is made by your team and your team and your team that an individual member may not always totally agree with.

Interjection.

Hon. John Gerretsen: I’m sure even the old democrats have that from time to time. So you go with the basic direction or philosophy that that political party believes in or advocates etc.

In the last few minutes that I have, Speaker, I would hope that since we are in a minority Parliament situation—and it is a minority Parliament situation. The only way that the people of Ontario are going to benefit from the actions that we take here is by collectively working together better than we have in the past.

Interjection.

Hon. John Gerretsen: No, I’ve been there, done that. I won’t do it again. Okay? You can quote me on that. That’s the best thing that ever happened to me, that I didn’t become leader, I’ll tell you that. I wouldn’t be here right now. That’s the best thing that ever happened to me. But I will stack up the other 12 elections that I’ve won without a defeat over the last 40 years against them.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Point of order from the member from Prince Edward–Hastings.

Mr. Todd Smith: I understand why the member is taking this line of communication—because the actions of his government have been indefensible—but I would ask that he speak to the motion on the table, and the motion is that we have these documents turned over to the committee, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I thank the member for his point of order. I remind the member to stay focused on the motion that we’re talking about. The lenience is starting to get a little thin.

Hon. John Gerretsen: Thank you, Speaker. It was the interjection about a leadership race that one of the Conservative members mentioned that brought me back to a historical perspective of my own involvement many, many years ago.

Look, the bottom line is this: We’ve got to get out of this dilemma that we’re in right now, and the only way that that’s going to happen is by the three House leaders getting together tomorrow, a month from today, six months from today, a year from today. Sooner or later, that’s the only way it’s going to be resolved, so I would just urge and implore them, for the benefit of all of the people of Ontario, to do that as soon as possible so that we can get on with the business of running this government and this Parliament, and so that you can get on with asking questions that need to be asked on a day-to-day basis.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. It being close to 11:30, this House stands recessed until 3 p.m. this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1127 to 1500.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good afternoon. Further debate.

Mr. Jim Wilson: I’m pleased to rise today to speak to the amendment to the amendment of the motion of contempt against the Minister of Energy put forward by my colleague the honourable member from Cambridge.

This is a very sad day for the province of Ontario. Not since 1908 have we come this close to finding someone in contempt of this Legislature, but it is an action that must be taken, Mr. Speaker, because the government has shown nothing but disdain for the people of Ontario and their right to know how their tax dollars are being spent.

I’ve heard from people in some corners that say this measure we’re undertaking today, the motion of contempt, is no longer necessary because the government, at the 11th hour, and under threat, has now handed over some of the documents. To those people, I say this: We don’t have all of the documents. In fact, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of pages missing. There isn’t a single document, email or letter from the real decision-makers in the package that was presented.

The energy minister already told the estimates committee who made the decision to forfeit hundreds of millions of tax dollars—and we think it’s up to 645 million tax dollars—on the fiasco to move the Oakville and Mississauga power plants. The minister himself made it clear that it was the Liberal campaign team that made the decision, yet there’s oddly no record of that in the 36,000 pages of documents we’ve received thus far.

There’s also nothing from the Premier or his staff, nothing from the Minister of Energy or his staff and nothing from the Liberal campaign gurus or their staff.

Even more troubling are the instances where they’ve just blatantly withheld information. In one Ontario Power Authority document, there is one whole blank page that simply says, “Exhibit P”—this is in quotes—“—Intentionally Deleted.” In another, they’ve clearly blacked out the contents of an email, but you can, if you squint, easily see that the words “political activity” were amongst the words redacted, and that was from one of the lawyers at the OPA. This is a further breach of privilege, and it shows more contempt of this House, I would argue, Mr. Speaker. That’s the first red flag, and it’s a very, very serious one.

The next is this: If you catch a child shoplifting and force them to return the chocolate bar to the store owner, you still reprimand the child. Whether you take away his allowance, set a curfew or admonish his bad behaviour, there’s still a lesson to be learned and a penalty to pay.

In this case, the Speaker—you, Mr. Speaker—has already ruled that a prima facie case of breach of privilege has been found because of the government’s failure to release the documents that the estimates committee first asked for last May. In other words, the Liberals wasted hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money and then broke the law and hid the documents. That’s a pretty serious offence. And it isn’t a game, Speaker, as some, in the hallways, have suggested on the opposite side.

The committee has the right and the power to request documents just like any court of law. If you do not produce the documents, there is a penalty, just like in a court of law. It is extremely troubling that this government seems to think that they can determine what is in the public interest, absent of any scrutiny. It’s extremely sad that the public interest has been circumvented by political interference.

As legislators, it’s now our duty to vote on whether or not we concur with the Speaker’s ruling, and if we do, that we allow this matter to be sent to committee so that we can investigate why it is that the government refused to share the documents and why it is that they wasted hundreds of millions of tax dollars with nothing to show for it—some $645 million so far, Mr. Speaker. This motion is also going to help us verify that we’ve received all of the documents, because it’s clear that we haven’t.

This is the job of the opposition. We are here to keep the government accountable, and that is what we are doing with this motion and with the amendment to the amendment and the amendment itself put forward by the honourable member from Cambridge: holding the Liberals accountable for stonewalling the duly elected members of this Legislature for months and months and hiding the true cost of their seat-saver scheme from the people of Ontario.

Let me remind the members of the government how we arrived at this point today.

It was on Wednesday, May 16, that the Standing Committee on Estimates passed a motion that required the Ministry of Energy and the Ontario Power Authority to provide the committee with documents relating to the Oakville and Mississauga power plants. That is the right of the members of the estimates committee, as it is the right of all members of committees in this House and in similar Parliaments across the Commonwealth.

On May 30, the Minister of Energy responded to the request, stating, “In light of the confidential, privileged and highly commercially sensitive nature of these issues, it would not be appropriate for my office or the ministry to disclose information that would prejudice these ongoing negotiations and litigation.” The Ontario Power Authority provided similar reasoning.

Obviously, Speaker, that was a ruse. The government House leader told me on Friday last that they needed six more weeks to come to a deal with the proponents and that the documents would remain secret until that time. When I told him, “No way; we’re not going to allow you to do this any longer,” the Liberals miraculously came to a deal in 48 hours. That says a lot about the truthfulness of the government’s original excuse concerning their refusal to release the documents.

Back to the chronology: As a result of the minister’s refusal to produce the documents on May 30, the committee sent a report to the House advising the Speaker that a possible contempt of the Legislature has occurred.

On July 11, the minister provided some documents to the committee, referring only to the Mississauga power plant. However, the documents provided were far from complete, just like the documents we were given a few hours ago—yesterday.

The energy minister stated in the letter attached to the documents that “certain information remains subject to privilege and is not being included.” Minister Bentley also failed to provide any documents pertaining to the Oakville power plant, as requested by the committee on May 16.

When the House returned early for consideration of Bill 115, the Putting Students First Act, in late August, the Chair of the estimates committee reported to the House that the Minister of Energy breached the privilege of the members and the powers of the committee. It was then that the member for Cambridge rose on a point of privilege, explaining that his rights as a member of this House had been violated.

On September 13, you, Mr. Speaker, ruled that a prima facie breach occurred, and you ordered the minister to table the documents within 10 days, as Parliament has an absolute right to call for people, papers and things under the law.

Over those 10 days, the House leaders met more than five times to seek a resolution, and it wasn’t until September 20 that the Liberals proposed a solution that would only allow a secret review of the documents.

As members may recall, the first proposal was to lock us up, but at that time they told us there were 50,000 to 100,000 documents—we only have 36,000, so that’s a little suspicious—and they repeated that on several occasions at these meetings.

The proposal was to lock one member from each party in a room with one staff member—no outside experts or lawyers or anything like that—and we were to go through 50,000 to 100,000 documents.

Interjection: How long would that take?

Mr. Jim Wilson: Well, obviously, that would take us six months.

The second one was we would have a couple of judges do that for us. I think both the PCs and the NDP consistently said, “No, that’s not transparency, openness and honesty.”

The people of Ontario deserve to know what the seat-saver program cost—the most egregious example of wasted money in my 22 years here in the House and, I think, ever. That you would spend more than $645 million—you know, when people make campaign promises, normally at least there’s a hospital, or a highway to drive on afterwards. You get nothing for $645 million and counting. I think the Liberal Party of Ontario should pay it, and I don’t care if it takes you a thousand years. You should be paying that, not the taxpayers of Ontario.

Here we are, debating a contempt motion, not just because the government stonewalled us for months, but because the government has handed over incomplete documents and has not fulfilled the request of the members of this House.

I thought that Matt Gurney made some good points about the game that the government is playing in the National Post over the weekend. He clearly gets it, and I’d like to read some of his column into the record. The piece is entitled “McGuinty Demands the Opposition Stop Playing Political Games with His Political Game.”

Mr. Gurney wrote: “The day after the Speaker of the Ontario Legislature ruled that the Liberals had prima facie breached the privileges of the Legislature in refusing to hand over documents requested by the opposition, Premier Dalton McGuinty struck back. Or at least he tried to.

“The matter relates to the cancellation of two proposed power plants by the McGuinty Liberals. The Liberals had insisted, for years, that the plants were needed to meet electricity needs in the greater Toronto area. They stuck to their guns on this even in the face of intense and sustained local opposition to the plants. But ahead of last fall’s provincial election, when it became clear that the Liberals were in a fight for their political lives and could easily lose the next election, poof. The power plants were cancelled. The Liberals ended up holding the seats and winning a strong minority government.”

Mr. Gurney continues: “At the time, they denied their actions were politically motivated. No one believed them, and Energy Minister Chris Bentley eventually confirmed the obvious—the decision to cancel the plants did indeed come from the Liberal election campaign and not from the government. The Liberals have tried to hide the costs of the cancellation from the voters, however. They were eventually forced to admit that cancelling a plant in Mississauga cost the taxpayers at least $190 million that the province doesn’t have.

But the Liberals have refused to release documents concerning the cost of cancelling another plant, this one in Oakville. It is their refusal to release those documents that resulted in the finding of a prima facie breach of privilege.

“That’s a very fast overview of a complicated situation,” Mr. Gurney wrote. “But the key points are this—the Liberals made a purely political decision that cost the taxpayers huge money, and they are obviously reluctant to release documents that would establish exactly how much money it cost. And they are sticking to that.

On Friday, the day after the ruling, when the opposition parties were demanding the Liberals release the documents immediately, Premier McGuinty again refused, saying two things: That the negotiations concerning the Oakville plant’s cancellation are not yet complete and that releasing the figures could harm that process, and, also, that the opposition should stop playing political games.”

Speaker, as I mentioned, we now know that the Premier’s first excuse was nonsense, given yesterday’s announcement that a deal had been reached just 48 hours after your ruling, but I’ll read on. Mr. Gurney continues that the “second argument is patently absurd. It’s the Liberals who are playing political games with other people’s money. They’ve been doing so from the beginning. They still are. They clearly wish to continue doing that. In calling them out on it and demanding that the documents detailing the government’s use of taxpayer monies be released, the opposition isn’t playing games. They’re calling out the Liberals for their games.

“It’s undeniable, of course, that the opposition are seeking political advantage. But that’s par for the course. Hammering your opponents when they’re vulnerable on a legitimate matter of public interest isn’t playing games. It’s literally the job of the opposition. And, let it be noted, no less an authority on legitimate government business than the Speaker of the Legislature has already agreed that the opposition is within their rights to ask for the information. Games are certainly being played here, but by the Liberals, not the opposition.”

Mr. Gurney’s

article ends with: “The Liberals tried to play games with taxpayers’ money to win elections, and got caught. There’s no way around that now. It’s time for them to fess up. Until then, at the very least, it would behoove them to stop accusing the opposition of playing games. Their house is made of glass far too fragile to long survive the throwing of those kinds of stones.”

Mr. Speaker, I thought that column summed up the situation pretty well, from how we got here to where we’re at today.

The other point I wanted to address is this nonsense we hear from the Liberals that we would have made t