Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 49B (34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-49b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 498 - 8 p.m., Monday, October 3, 1988. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUEN CY ALCOCK, Reg Osborne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Sieve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR,James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNE Y, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Virden GAUDRY, Neil St. Bon iface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Min nedosa GRAY, Avis Ellice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MALOWAY, Jim Elm wood MANDRAKE, Ed Assini boia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Glad stone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNEfl, Jack, Hon. Rhin eland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonne t ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Moun tain ROCH, Gilles Spring field ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill ln terlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIB ERAL LIB ERAL NDP PC LIB ERAL LIBER AL LIBER AL LIBER AL LIBER AL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBER AL PC LIBER AL PC PC LIB ERAL NDP PC PC LIBER AL PC LIB ERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBER AL LIBER AL NDP LIB ERAL PC PC LIB ERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBE RAL PC NDP PC PC LIBER AL LIB ERAL NDP LIB ERAL NDP NDP LIB ERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, October 3, 1988. The House met at 8 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-COMMUNITY SERVICES Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: On item No. 3., Community Social Services, we are on item (

c) Manitoba Developmental Centre,

(1) Salaries, $17 ,653,500.00. Shall the item pass? Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): Mr. Chairperson, could the Min ister tell us if she has had the opportun ity to review the recommendations in regard to MDC which were presented in the most recent Om budsman Report? Could she tell us which one of these recommendations have been implemented ? Hon. Cha rlotte Oleson (M inister of Community Services): I should ind icate to the Member, as I believe she asked if I had a chance to read it, yes, I have. All the recommendations have been acted upon except two.

One of them is the capital expenses that were recommended and they are ongoing. They are being built into the syste m. The Go vern ment Services Depar tment, of cou rse, is responsible for capital improvements to the building. When that department is debated, which I believe it has been this afternoon, then questions could be asked in that department of exactly what ren ovations were taking place. There is an update taking place of the human resources plan which should be finis hed shortly. Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister ind icate although capital expenditu res would be part of Government Services, since the Manitoba Developmental Centre is under the purview of her department, have there been budgetary allocations for capital expenditur es for MD C? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. As I ind icated before, there have been but they will be in Government Services. Ms. Gray: Ha ve the se capital expenditur es been allocated for specific renova tions within the Centre? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. I could give the Member a list of the capital projects for MDC for '88-89 if the Member wishes.

I have a list here of major projects and their estimated cost. Fire and safety upgrading of cottages, $620,000, and that is ongo ing; Southgrove, air-condition ing, $345,000, and that is near completion; fire and safety for the nu rses' residence, $30,000, and that is for this current year.

Under maintenance, there are roof repairs of Oak and Maple Cottage, $78,000 for the current year, and that is und er way; replace windo ws in all cottages as required and that is ongoi ng; parquet flooring all cottages, $70,000, and that is to be done in this current year; upgrading of plumbing, all areas, $1 00,000 over two years; painting, two staff full-time, and that is $400,000 and that is ongoing over a period of 10 years. That is done on a regular scheduled basis. Minor maintenance is listed as $12, 000, and that of course is done under the Government Services Department. * (20 10) Ms.

Gray: One of the recommenda tions which the Ombudsman's Office ident ified was the concern over staff-to-resident ratios. Could the Min ister ind icate to us what the staff-to-resident ratios currently are at the Manitoba Dev elopmental Centre, and ha ve the y improved sinc e the recommenda tions came out by the Om budsman's Office? Mrs. Oleson: The ratio as of March 31, 19 88, is 1.1 staff to 1 resident. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us is this a change or improvement from what the staffing ratio was when the Om budsman did his report? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I un derstand that is an improvement.

Could I further add, I said that was an improvement. At the end of December 19 86, the ratio was 1. 0 to 1; at the end of March 19 87, it was 1. 04 to 1. As I ind icated, at the end of March 19 88, it was 1.1 to 1. Ms. Gray: One of the conc erns outlined in the report from the Om budsman's Office was the inc rease in injur ies of residenc es, and he indic ated a dramatic incr ease from 19 86 to 19 87.

Does the Min ister have any further data as to whether in fact the numb er of in cidents are related to resident injur y, if there has been an incr ease or a decrease sinc e the in cidents which were recorded in '87 by the report from the Om budsman's Office? Mrs. Oleson: I could ind icate to the Member since the Ombudsman's report, No. 1, there was consi derable more movement of re sidents in 19 87 than in previous years which lends to resident un rest and aggressive behaviour. The movement of residents was necessary to accommodate the closure of Northgrove Building.

No. 2, the reporting method was changed in 19 87 whereby the category of aggression was chang ed to include a number of in cidents previously in cluded under lacerations, abrasions, or emotionally abusive in cidents. Previous ly, the agg ression category in clud ed only in cidents of aggression without injur y. No. 3, the focus on the use of psychoactive drugs by the medical staff and resultant decrease in their use has probably led to incr eased aggression in some residents.

This is something that has to be con tinua lly mon itored which it is to balanc e the use of psychoactive drugs against the safety of other residents from aggression. lt is expected that the number of incidents of in juries should decrease with stabilization of resident moves and proper utilization of psychoactive drugs. 1816

Monday, October 3, 1988 Ms. Gray: What is the current number of individuals now living at the MDC? Mrs. Oleson: Five hundred and eighty-five at the end of August 1988. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, is there a plan to reduce that number by a certain ratio or percentage within the next fiscal year? Mrs. Oleson: I believe I have answered that on several occasions. There is not a number . We have not assigned a number of people who will be moved . There will be people who move out into residences when they are available, but there is not a targeted number that says "X" number of people will move . Ms.

Gray: Is the Minister's department encouraging or promoting the deinstitutionalization or movement of people from the school, actively promoting it? Mrs. Oleson: What we want is approp riate placemen t for individuals and, if they wish to move , they should be given the choice . I believe we have discussed that on several occasions. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us. of the 585 people , how many of them wish to move? Mrs. Oleson: No, I do not think we could give you a clear answer on that . Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister tell us are there any directives which have gone to MDC or to senior staff in regard to actively planning for discharge for the clients in MDC? Mrs. Oleson: There have been no changes . There is assessment of each person by staff if they wish to move. The usual process that has been in place is still in place . Ms. Gray: I understand that before , with Welcome Home, there actually were some sort of numbers of individuals who they would like to see move out of the school.

I am not sure how they arrived at the 220, but the Minister has now indicated that there are not numbers, so therefore that is somewhat of a change . I am wondering again, how are staff made aware or are staff made aware that they should be actively planning for residents who they feel might be ready for discharge into the community. Mrs. Oleson: The Member mentioned that there was a target of 220 or 225, whatever it was, with the Welcome Home Project , but the Member should also remember that there was one residence there, Northgrove , that had to be closed because it was deemed to be uninhabitable .

That was part of the reason why there was a projected move of a certain number of people, because they had to close that particular residence . Ms. Gray: The Minister has indicated that those number of individuals were being moved because of the close of a particular part of the residence. Since there is no other portion in the residence that is seen to be clos ed, I am still unclear what -the Minister said there is no change in policy. What exactly is the policy with which there has been no change? Mrs.

Oleson: The policy is that people will move , and with what is in the best interests of the particular individual. There is, as I said before, no targeted number. If there is a space available, if there is a residence available and the committee feels that the resident can move, then they will move. Ms. Gray: Who initiates the process? Who within the MDC says, yes, I think this particular individual might be a candidate for community living? Who within the school initiates that? Mrs. Oleson: It could be a family member who might initiate the suggestion to move . It could be a caseworker.

Staff within MDC might feel that person wou ld be a good cand idate to move. It varies with the indiv idual. Ms. Gray: When a caseworker within the MDC perhaps fir st the Minister could clarify, who does she mean when she says "caseworkers in the MDC"? Mrs. Oleson: Social workers. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us specifically what duties or what jobs these social workers do within the Manitoba Developmental Centre? Mrs. Oleson: We could table a job description if the Member wishes one. * (2020) 1817 Ms.

Gray: Under Activity Identification, it indicates that "communication, life skills, behavioural and pre vocational training services are provided for the residents ." Individuals who would assist in those areas , are these the social workers that she refers to? Mrs. Oleson: They would manage the cases but there are specialists within the centre who provide a different com ponent of life within the centre . Ms. Gray: Is each res ident in the MDC assign ed a social worker? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, that is the case . Ms.

Gray: When a social worker decides that they think a resident is ready for community living , what do they do? What is the process that they would foll ow? Mrs. Oleson: They would initiate an Evaluation Clinic and they also contact the region. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us, is that the total process or is there more to it than that? Mrs. Oleson: It would be a multidisciplinary team and these teams evaluate the case of each resident once a year at least .

Monday, October 3, 1988 Ms. Gray: When someone is ident ified by a worker in MD C and this Evaluation Clinic proceeds and a region is ident ified , does then automatically someone from a regional office become in volved in that discharge or Evaluat ion Clinic? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, that is the case. Ms. Gray: Could the Minis ter tell us how many indi vidua ls wi thin MD C have been ident ified as potentially ready for commun ity living, who may be in some stage of the process for discharge planning? Mrs.

Oleson: There are about 24 at the moment and there could be a waiting list. lt is a matter of evaluating each case. Ms. Gray: What does the Min ister mean by "waiting list"? Mrs. Oleson: What I meant was potential candida tes to go into the Transition Unit, if that was the case that they were going to move and would go into that. The Transition Unit takes 24 at the moment. Ms. Gray: When a client is ident ified as possibly ready for commun ity living, is it manda tory that person would go into-a t this point in time, I unde rstand that unit is under review-the unit before being discharged in to the commun ity?

Mrs. Oleson: No, they could go directly into the communi ties. lt varies with cases, but it is not mandatory to go into the Transition Unit. Ms. Gray: Just to clarify, the Min ister has indi cated approxima tely there are about 24 or so ind ividuals who have been ident ified as possibly ready for com mun ity living? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, there is that numb er that the Transition Unit is working with to prepare them for a move. Ms.

Gray: Are there indi viduals other than the 24 that the Transition Unit is working with who maybe are at the beginning stages where a worker has identified that they could potentially be candida tes for the communit y? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. I ind icated before there are others who are not in the Transition Uni t who could be ready to move or whose planning is that they could be moved. Ms. Gray: Does the Min ister have in formation as to how many readmissions were made to MDC over the past year? Mrs. Oleson: I said earlier in the afternoon, responding to questions possibly to the Member for St. Johns (Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis), that we could get that informa tion. Mr. Chairman: Item 3.{c ){1) -pass; 3.(c )(2)-pass. Item (

d) Programs: Provides program direction, standards and evaluation for care, accommodation, rehabilitation and assistance to physically and mentally disabled persons. Section (1) Salarie s, $1 ,026,200 .00. Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: In the in formation that the Min ister had tabled the other day regarding adult day programs and vocational rehabilitation, I am wondering if the Min ister could tell us what the program coordina tors do. Mrs. Oleson: They help define standards and guideli nes, and monitor and evaluate programs. Ms.

Gray: Do these ind ividuals have dir ect relationships, or do they have any respon sibilities with workshops and facilities who operate day programs? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they do. Ms. Gray: What is their responsibil ity with respect to these day programs and other facilities? Mrs. Oleson: They monitor the programs and look at the stan dards. They work with the regions. Ms. Gray: Do the se indi viduals work with the facilities or workshops directly? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, that is possible. Ms. Gray: Wha t specifically is the natur e of the mon itoring of programs that they do with the workshops? Mrs.

Oleson: The y help define and in terpr et the standards and the guideli nes and moni tor and evaluate aspects of the programs. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister ind icate to us how many different or separate adult day programs are there in Manitoba? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, there are approximately 60 adult day programs in Mani toba. Ms. Gray: Would the se staff have a direct liaison function with all 60 of these workshops? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms. Gray: These program standards that the Min ister refers to, are these stand ards outlined in any type of manual that is available to all the workshops? *

(2030) Mrs. Oleson: There is a working copy that is in present use but it is being updated. The regions do have guideli nes. Ms. Gray: I unde rstand that as part of these guidelines previously, and I think I have mentio ned this before, there was a move toward having workshops ident ify clients who could be in tegrated into the communi ty in various job placements in that there was a move towards having the workshops have, and I believe the 1818

Monday, October 3, 1988 figure was 10 percent , I am not sure, but a percentage of individuals move withi r. community plac ements in a given year. This information that I am presenting, is that part of these program standards that are still being used? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, that is part of it. It is a target. Ms. Gray: Does the Minister have information as to how many of these 60 workshops are meeting that target? Mrs. Oleson: It is not a requirement of the workshops .

It is a goal that they might wish to achieve with having people going to the community , but it is not mandatory for people to go out into the communit y. Ms. Gray: Does the Minister havE! information as to how many workshops are meeting the target? Mrs. Oleson: That is part of the stu dy we will do before next year 's Estimates is to find out just where they are in moving people , if people are getting jobs and how they are operating. Ms. Gray: Another study. Which study is this one? Mrs. Oleson: It is not a particula r study. Every year, when the budgets are worked out , you have to look at all aspects of it.

It is not a

part icular study as such . It is an ongoing work of the department to see how things are working .- (Interjection)- Right. Ms. Gray: Could the Minis ter tell us, are there any incentives which are given to workshops or day programs to develop programs which would , where appropriate , integrate clients into community placements or into community jobs? Mrs. Oleson: No incentives as such . What did the Member have in mind? Is she suggesting some type of incentive program? Ms. Gray: I could probably think of one if you give me a couple of days.- (Interjection)- No. For the Member for Arthur (Mr.

Downey), all incentives do not have to be in monetary terms . There are othe r ways of having incentives . Mr. Chairperson, in regard to the monitoring of program standards, could the Minister tell us are there any workshops which are currently not meeting program standards as outlined in the working manual? Mrs. Oleson: Not that we are aware of. Ms. Gray: What is the process for monitoring to ensure that these standards are met, given that there are few staff and there are 60 workshops across the province? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, there are ongoing evaluations to make sure that programs are in place .

There are workers in these workshops from time to time, workers who are involved with clients and , from time to time, a workshop may ask for an evaluation to be sure that they are fulfilling the role that they have set out to fill. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate, have there been any proposals that have come to her attention since she took office where various groups are asking for new adult day programs to be instituted? Mrs. Oleson: There are often proposals that come from time to time . In fact, always someone is coming forward with some proposal or other . Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate if there are any existing day programs which have also put forth proposals for new projects or for more day program spaces? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, there are some. Some have asked for more spaces to extend their programs . Ms. Gray: Over the past few years, there oftentimes seemed to be a differing philosophy or difference of opinion about workshop size and the number of people who should be within a workshop setting . I am wondering if the Minister could indicate to us what her department's philosophy is or what the policy is in regard to size of workshops? Mrs.

Oleson: There is no set policy on size, but they have to be economically viable . Ms. Gray: Is the Minister indicating that for some of the larger workshops , ii they wish to increase to 300 or so, the Minister's department would look favourably upon that? Mrs. Oleson: No, I am not indicating that would be approved . T hat would be too large. Ms. Gray: Is the Minister then indicating that in fact there is some guidel ine as to what is consid ered a reasonable size for workshops? Mrs. Oleson: It is based on the community need and the approved budget of the department.

As I indic ated -I do not remember now what day it was th at we were discussing this - there were 57 people on the waiting list who would like to get into day programs. Of course , they are from varying communities within the province so one particular program would not meet the need s of all 57 of those people . Ms. Gray: With the various day programs that do provide some sort of day activities for the clients in the community, has the Minister 's department been able to iden tify, is there a particular level of client where in fact there is a real gap in day programs? 1819 Mrs.

Oleson: Could the Member be more explicit in what she means by level? Ms. Gray: I understand that for some clients with multineeds and clients who would be considered at a Level 3 and 4 that the day programs that are available

Monday, October 3, 1988 to them are much more limited than for clients who are at a Level 1, 2 and 3. * ( 2040) Mrs. Oleson: There may be a gap and not spaces available for people who are severely handic apped and have psychologic al problems. There could be a gap there. lt is more difficult to place those people. Ms. Gray: With the day programs, is each day workshop licensed or approved for taking in clients who are at certain levels? In other words, can they exceed that level of client into the workshop? Mrs. Oleson: They are approved for certain programs and approved for the num ber of spaces. Ms.

Gray: Have there been any exceptions to this rule or any workshops that have done any pilot projects as to dealing with clients at a higher level other than what the other clients were at? Mrs. Oleson: There may be that type of workshop but we may not be paying for it. They may be getting their funding elsewhere. So ther e could be pilot projects of that nature, but we are no t paying for it. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us, there was a program operated by a board called Mon tgomery Centre. Did that program go un der or disband? Mrs. Oleson: I und erstand th at par ticular one disbanded. Ms.

Gray: I unde rstand that program did deal with people who had a higher level of need as far as need ing a day program so it is unf ortuna te in some respects that this program has disbanded. Does the Min ister have in formation as to the reasons that this particula r centr e folded? Mrs. Oleson: Apparently that centr e was not viable for a number of reasons and the board made a decision to disband it. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us if one of those reasons was they felt that the per diems which they were allowed were not enough to sustain a program? Mrs.

Oleson: I un derstand that was one of the reasons, yes. Ms. Gray: Has the Min ister's department taken a look at, for ins tance, that type of program and the reasons why it disbanded, and is there a move toward trying to rectify what some of the concerns would be of providing day programs for these higher-need people so that when communi ty groups do bring in further proposals that there can be perhaps more of a success rate? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, it is being looked at. Of course, it has to be budgeted for.

As I ind icated one other day when we were discussing this, all of the rates and per diems are under review as part of the budgetary processes for Estimates for next year. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister tell us, is the concept of bridging back of clients in terms of funding, is that available to day programs? Mrs. Oleson: Could the Mem ber explain what she means by bridging back? Ms.

Gray: There was a concern expressed and there has been over the years by some workshops and by some parents as well that when an ind ividual seems to be ready to move out into an int egrated job setting that the concern and the fear of the parents and in some cases the ind ividuals themselves is that once they move out of the secure setting of the workshop and go into a new work situation, if for whatever reasons that particular job placement should not be successful or that they get laid off or whatever the reasons may be, then that person is totally out of a day program placement because they have lost that space at the workshop.

There was a conc ept at one time tha t some workshops were trying to look at the concept of bridging back where that ind ividual would have the opportun ity to still have a placement at that workshop and no t have to go on the bottom of a waiting list and wait three or four years for a placement. I am wondering if the department has add ressed that concept. Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, yes, I und erstand that many of the workshops do this, and it is something that we are looking at to see what degree they do it because of cou rse there is a cost attached to it. Ms.

Gray: Is there a mini mum standard as to what the staff participant ratio is in day programs? Mrs. Oleson: Because of the variety of programs, it is hard to set a rigid ratio. Ms. Gray: When a workshop decides to set up a program and puts in a proposal to the Government, if there are no guideli nes as to staff-client ratio, how does the department advis e the se potential day program providers as to what might be a reasonable staff-client ratio? Mrs.

Oleson: Differential guideli nes are in place for varying levels of need , so they would have to look at who they were going to serve in order to set any guideline for levels of staffing. Ms. Gray: I unde rstand that some of the workshops, and one example is Stur geon Creek Enterpris es, has a fairly high staff ratio to client ratio, in that a lot of the prog ram ming done there is on a one-to-one ind ividual basis. Could the Min ister confirm that? Mrs. Oleson: They are no doubt able to do that because they get funding from other sources. I think, in the case of Sturgeon Creek, they get some federal funding.

I am not sure what other funding they get as well. 1820

Monday, October 3, 1988 Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, how does she see the whole idea of normalization fitting into how she would structure her policies arou nd adult day programs? Mrs. Oleson: I think it is important to consider the capacities of the individual so it would be hard to set a rigid rule or set numbers of who was going to be, as the Member used the term, " normalized ." It would be very good to have everyone fulfill the utmost of their potential by going into the work force and doing various things and that is the goal we would set . We would not want to force someone into a work setting who was not ready or was not capable of taking

part in that sort of a setting. It would have to vary with the individuals who you are working with. Ms. Gray: Does the Minister agme with the concep t of integrated work settings for the mentally handicapped? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms. Gray: What initiatives has her departmen t undertaken to promote that concept of integrated work settings? Mrs. Oleson: We are looking at the per diems to see if this is possible and we are look ing at the supports that are available for people . Ms. Gray: I have some further questions in the Programs area.

Just to clarify again, the Minister had indicated that the two program coordinators deal with monitoring of programs and standards . Is there anyone in particular in the regions who they would have direct consultation with in regard to if community day programs are meeting those standards? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, the regional supervisors and coordinators. Ms. Gray: Under the adult day programs , it indicates also program analysts . Could the Minister tell us wha t do these program analysts do? Mrs. Oleson: They are financial analysts . Ms.

Gray: What specifically do these analysts do in regard to the Department of Community Services? Mrs. Oleson: We could give the Member a fuller description in a few minutes if you want to go on to another question. Ms. Gray: Under the Financial Assistance , where the Supple!llentary Estimates have broken down the assistance in regard to Residential Services and it indicates Special Placements, could the Minister explain what is involved with the Special Placements? *

(2050) Mrs. Oleson: These are for individualized programs for people who cannot take

part in the regular programs. Something individual has to be designed for them . 1821 Ms. Gray: Does the Minister have information as to how many clients would be served by the Special Placements? Mrs. Oleson: We do not have the number at hand, but we could get it for the Member. Ms. Gray: Would the Minister also be able to get inf ormation-these Special Placements , this is residential. What type of living arrangements would be involved in these Special Placements? Mrs. Oleson: This could be a proctor program or it could be additional staffing in the regular programs to allow them to stay there. Ms.

Gray: The Minister is indicating that as well as a proctor program , it could also be extra assistance to allow someone to stay in a community residence placement? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, in a residence or in their own home, but it would mean hiring extra staff to assist them. Ms. Gray: What are the guidelines around Special Placements for clients, parents and staff knowing how to apply for Special Placement versus the other residential areas indicated? Mrs. Oleson: These are individual cases that have been identified .

It is possible that they may have to go back into an institution if they did not get this additional help, but it would be identified through their caseworker and various other ways. But they are individual cases that we are looking at here. There are placement guidelines that we could table at the next sitting if the Member is interested . Ms. Gray: Yes, I would be interested in that. Could the Minister indicate these Special Placements, is there a maximum dollar amount that can be attached to an individual for a Special Placement? Mrs.

Oleson: They have to be approved by the assistant Deputy Minister and , for the numbers that we are look ing at, it is only about 18 to 20 people at any one particular time that we are talking about here in these cases . Ms. Gray: Is there a maximum dollar amount with which the assistant Deputy Minister can approve these placements? Mrs. Oleson: No, but it has to be approved within the total budget. Ms. Gray: Do regions have budgets specifically for Special Placements? Mrs. Oleson: No, it is a centralized budget. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us what that budget is for '88-8 9? Mrs. Oleson: $562 ,600 .00.

Monday, October 3, 1988 Ms. Gray: What was the actual expenditu re for '87- 88 in that line? Mrs. Oleson: I unde rstand it was lumped in with Other Expenditures last year, so it is difficult to get the num ber. We can get an approximate numb er for the Mem ber. Ms. Gray: This Special Placement, would this be the line where if an in div idual who was mentally handi capped wishes to live on their own in an apartment or in a house, but requires basically 24-hour care and/ or supervision, is this the line with which an application would be made to get dollars for Special Placements? Mrs. Oleson: Mr.

Cha irman, th ere is a line for Sup ervised Apar tment Liv ing which amounts to $429,200 for '88-89 but, if there was some special needs over and above that, then some Special Placement funds could be used. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, I was referring to indi viduals who would require 24-hour supervision. I was under the und erstanding that Supervised Apartment Living was for in dividuals who were fairly independent and did not necessarily require 24-hour care. Mrs. Oleson: Mr.

Chairman, yes, that is correct and that is why I in dicated that then over and above that we would have to look at Special Placement dollars. Ms. Gray: I would think that there might be a num ber of parents in the commu nity who, if they felt that there were these dollars available for Special Placements wher e their you ng adult cou ld li ve on th eir own independently in a house and receive 24-hour care and supervision, there may be a flurry of applications. How does this department decide on which people would be priorized for these types of placements? Mrs. Oleson: Mr.

Chairman, yes, we could not possibly meet all the needs. There are guideli nes for this which we could table with the Member later and, of course, there would be the budgetary restraints as wel l, so everyone who applied, it would be im possible to give them assistance. Ms.

Gray: Would these individuals, would we be looking at people who were multiple-handicapped and required a high level of care and supervision and had a high level of health needs, or would the Special Placements be more designed for in dividuals who were not at that high level of care and had less health needs that had to be met in the commun ity and less multiple needs? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, the Special Placements mainly refer to day programs. There is some resident ial component but this is mainly for day programs. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Chairperson, if the Special Placements is mostly for day programs, is she then referring to where special proposals or applicati ons go through to provide an in dividualized day program for a client and they would be approved through these dollars? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, that is the case. 1822 * (2 10 0) Ms. Gray: My question is then, where does it fall within the budget for in dividuals who do require 24-hour care and supervision but are living on their own in the community with these 24-hour supports? Where within the budget line would those ind ividuals be? Mrs. Oleson: Mr.

Chairman, they would be assisted through additional care and supp ort and through Special Placements. lt seems to me that it is rather fuzzy and that we will have to have a look at it before we do next year's budget. Mr. Chairman, I am reminded that there is also social assistance comes into this picture too. Ms. Gray: The reason for my line of questioning, Mr.

Chairperson, is that I was of the unde rstanding that in fact there were a numb er of ind ividuals, perhaps a very few, who were living in the community who had multiple needs and did require extensive care and supervision on a 24-hour basis, and that this was one of the programs that was provided through the Department of Commun ity Services. So I was attempting to find out if these situations still existed, if applications for this type of program were encou raged and again where within the budget line they fell.

Also, was there a maximum amount of dollars that would be considered reasonable to spend per day for providing this type of care and supervision and independent living for these in dividuals? Mrs. Oleson: These programs are relatively new, so their standards and funding is all developing. lt is something of course that will be looked at for our next year's budget. Ms. Gray: Will the Minister be able to get informa tion for us about whether there is a maximum amount of dollars, or is there anywhere a maximum amount of dollars that is considered reasonable to spend for an in dividual per day.

I am including day programs, residential, recreation, etc.? Is there sort of a maximum amount that is considered reasonable to spend on a person per day? Mrs. Oleson: I can give the Member the guidelines for Additional Care and Support. The others that she was asking about are still being developed. For Level 2, for instance, up to $8.39 per day; Level 3, up to $1 6.78 per day; Level 4 up to $25. 17 per day; and Level 5 up to $33.5 6. As of March 1, 19 88, service was provided to 699 adults under the Additional Care and Su pport Program. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms.

Gray: Can the Minister tell us, there was a project inclus ion that was one of the projects through the Welcome Home Program. Is that project still in existence? Mrs. Oleson: lt was disconti nu ed when the federal funding was discont inued.

Monday, October 3, 1988 Ms. Gray: Does the Minister have or would she be prepared to table the informati on as to the number of pre-vocational day activity programs there are , and the other types of day programs that there are throughout the province? Mrs. Oleson: We can table that at the next sitting . Ms. Gray: Thank you, yes, that would be appreciated . We spent some time talking in Estimates about waiting lists for day programs. Dolls the Minister have information as to what waiting lists there are for people entering community residences? Mrs.

Oleson: I understand there are very few , if any, on the waiting lists . Ms. Gray: When she says "very few," what does she mean by very few? Mrs. Oleson: We are not aware of absolute numbers of people on the waiting list at the moment , but this could change. I mean, it changes from time to time. Ms. Gray: If there is no one on the waiting list and there are 24 people being serviced in a Transition Unit , are there 24 vacancies in the community for placements for these individuals? Mrs. Oleson: Not at the present time , but people do come and go, so there cou ld be vacancies open up from time to time .

No, there are not 24 vacancies at the moment. Ms. Gray: These individuals who would be in this Transition Unit at MDC , has the process been started in an attempt to secure some sort of residential community placement for them? Mrs. Oleson: There may very well be some placements for them , but we finished that line on MDC and the administrator has left , so we cannot get you that clear answer. Ms. Gray: Certainly would not th13 Programs Branch still have information as to the number of people on waiting lists? Do the regions keep waiting lists of peopl e wishing to enter community residE!ntial placements? Mrs.

Oleson: We could get the information from the regions . They would have waiting lists perhaps . When someone is going to move, they have the information and the input so we could get information from the regions for the Member . Ms. Gray: I would think that there, are individuals out in the community, particularly where parents or a parent is aging, who are hoping that their adult son or daughter can be put into a community residential situation . So I would be surprised ii there was not planning being done or if there were no waiting lists .

Could the Minister indicate to us if any community woups or agencies have applied for opening up of new community residences? Mrs. Oleson: We have approximately four groups right now who have applied to initiate a residence . Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us what the status of those proposals are? Mrs. Oleson: There are two formal proposals and two Letters of Intent. Ms. Gray : Are these formal proposals by well established community groups? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they are . Ms. Gray: Have these proposals gone through the RIC process? Mrs. Oleson: That is where they are righ t now. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate, has there been a need identified by these proposals? I mean there must be a reason why they have sent in a proposal. I am assuming they have identi fied a need . Is that the case? Mrs. Oleson: The sponsors have identified a need and the committee is reviewing it. •

(2110) Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us if there have been any initiatives in her department to increase the number of Supervised Apartment Living situations? Mrs. Oleson: The field staff are always working on finding those type of arrangements. There are 119 Supervised Apartment Living situations right now, 1- 9-0 , sorry, not 119 - 190. Ms. Gray: The Minis ter said there are 190 apartmen t living situations. With the budget that she has indicated for '88-89 , has she allowed for an increase in those Supervised Apar tment Living situations? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, there is room for a modest increase in there . Ms.

Gray: That modest increase , approximately how many individuals might that increase accommodate? Mrs. Oleson: About 20. Ms. Gray: With the residential care situation, other than the Supervised Apartment Living, with the increases in budgets where the Minister has indicated in her budget, approximately how many new residential placements would there be other than the 20 that she has indicated for the Supervised Apartment Living? Mrs. Oleson: Could the Member rephrase the question , please? Ms.

Gray: The Minister has indicated that the modest increase , under the Supervised Apartment Living line, would amount to approximately 20 placements . Could 1823

Monday, October 3, 1988 the Mi nister in dicate to us, other than Supervised Apartment Living, there would be additional care and support and base in capital for community residen ces? Approximately, is there any incr ease in that budget line to allow for new placements under the additional care and support and base in capital? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, the budget has gone up, if the Member would care to look at that line, from $3,523,800 to $4,721,200.00. Ms. Gray: The question is, how many placements would that mean? How many new placements for this year would that incr ease accommodate? Mrs. Oleson: Seven. Mr.

Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: No. The Minister has indi cated approximately seven new placements for reside ntial care plus the 20 for Supervised Apartment Living, which is 27. The Minister is no t aware if there is even a waiting list for commun ity residences. We have added 15 new spaces for day programs. She said there is a waiting list already of 57. Could she explain the discrepanc y in that logic? Mrs. Oleson: There is no discrepan cy. Those are the funds available and we will be making use of it the best we can. Ms.

Gray: The Minister has indi cated she is not aware of any waiting list for community residences. Yet she has ad mitted there is a waiting list at least of 57 for day programs. Why would the dollars go into the commun ity reside ntial lin e, where she does not seem to think there is a waiting list, and not into the day program line where there is a waiting list? Mrs. Oleson: Because there are elderly parents with family who may not be able to look after them very much longer. There are also 24 people in the Transition Unit who could possibly move into the communi ty. That is why that funding was made availab le.

Ms. Gray: If there are 24 people in the Transition Unit ready to move into the commu nity and there are 20 Sup ervised Apartment Pla cements or an incr ease allowed for that and only seven community residents, I still find that difficult to under stand the num bers, because I would certainly think that for those indiv iduals in the Transition Units at MDC that certainly their needs would be fairly complex. They would probably not be candidates for Supervised Apartment Livings, but rather at least for a community residen ce.

So I am still at a loss to und erstand how the Minister has come up with these figures where we are allowing 20 for Supervised Apartment Living and only seven for residential care, when we have got 24 people in a Transition Unit who may be waiti ng for placements. Mrs. Oleson: The 24 people will not all get placed at once and there are different expen ses in volved in different programs. Also, the Member should be aware 1824 the mone y can be moved around wit hin this apportionment. If it was not used for one purpose, it could be shifted to another.

But these are the projections that are made at the begin ning of the year of what the needs would be or how we could meet the needs. But there is always the possibility of moving funds within this apportionme nt. Ms. Gray: I would assume, when this budget was developed, there was a rationale for why the dollars were allocated on various lines. What was the rationale for allocating these particular dollars in the Residential Care area? Mrs.

Oleson: These projections were due to taking into cons ider ation annu alizati on and kno wn child welfare people coming out of that system into this system, and also the system is not static. People move around, come and go from prog rams. So it is not something that is absolutely static and that can be predicted with absolute accuracy. Ms. Gray: Could the Minis ter explain what she means by "people come and go from programs," and how that relates to residential care? •

(2120) Mrs. Oleson: One example could be someone who is in residential care may move into Supervised Apartment Living or vice versa. That is one example of the changes that could take place. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us what the turno ver rate is of people moving out of community residences? Mrs. Oleson: We could get that informa tion for the Member. We do no t have it here but we could get it. Ms. Gray: How many people would be on a waiti ng list or have been iden tified in the child welfare system who would be ready to move into the adult M.R. system and would require some sort of residential placement?

Mrs. Oleson: Six to twelve. Ms. Gray: With the budget lines for the Residential Care-and the Mini ster has indi cated that dollars can move from one line to another. To clarify, can dollars move from one region across the province to another as well? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they can. Ms. Gray: Under the line where it says Special Grants and it indic ates Admini strative Support, $535,200, could the Mi nister explain that? Mrs. Oleson: Under administ rative support-that was what the Mem ber was asking about-provides funding for an annual administ rative grant for day programs.

Administ rative support will also be provided to assist operators of multiple programs in meeting actual costs. With the implemen tation of Welcome Home, the num ber of external providers operating multiple programs has

Monday, October 3, 1988 increased substantially, straining the administrative capacity of these agencies. The funding for that was, in '87-88, $5 19, 600 and, in '88-89, $535, 200.00. Ms. Gray: Do all the workshops receive some form of administrative support grant? What is the amount of the grant or the support? What is that based on? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they do receive it. lt is based on fixed costs, salaries and rental, that sort of thing . Ms. Gray: Would this administra tive support-the Minister has in dicated is based on salaries.

Does tha t mean that the numb er of staff per workshop would mean probably a higher admi nist rative support grant to that workshop? Mrs; Oleson: lt is based on an average. Ms. Gray: An average of what? Mr. Chairman: The Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) to clarify. Ms. Gray: To clarify my que stion, the Min ister had in dicated that part of the determina tion on the amount of administrative support was based on salaries. Could she explain what that means? Mrs. Oleson: The administra tive costs the Member was asking about is for the di rector and other admini strative costs within the facility which is overhead. Ms.

Gray: Therefore that admini strative support would have nothing to do with other salaried staff in the workshop? Mrs. Oleson: No, it would no t be in relation to the numb er of staff at the facility or the programs. Ms. Gray: When the Minister in dicates overhead, what all does she include in that? Mrs. Oleson: Mainly space and heat. Ms. Gray: Therefore, would I be safe in assuming that the larger workshops, such as Versatech, receive a larger administra tive support grant than do some of the smaller workshops? Mrs. Oleson: No, that is not the case. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister then explain that I would think larger facilities might have a larger overhead. Am I wrong, or are capital costs of the building included in that as well? Mrs. Oleson: These were originally designed to help smaller organ izations with their overhead. lt was felt that they needed more help. lt maybe has over time become a little fuzzy, I will admit. I und erstand that the larger centr es could perhaps, through marketing or other means, support their adminis trative end eavours more easily than the small centr es. Ms.

Gray: In discussions with some of the workshops, in Versatech in particular, I had understood that they did receive an administrative support grant, and they were mentioning that the grant was a mere pittance and did no t cover a lot of the admin istrative costs. Is the Min ister in dicating that this administ rative support requires some review? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I would think that would be a fair statement, yes. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us the next line, under Special Grants, special needs grant to day care centre, what day care centre is that in reference to? Mrs.

Oleson: That provides grants to rural day care cent res to provide staffing and training for children with disabilities. Funding is available for this same target population by child day care for Winnipeg region. These are for rural day cares. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us how many children would be accommodated through this grant? Mrs. Oleson: Yes.

In Central Region, the regional allocation is $79,000, and the numb er of children as of March 1 988 was 25; in Eastman , $70,000, 18 children; ln terlake, $70, 000 for 27; Norman, $40,000 for 8; Parklands, $2 1 ,000 for 5; Thompson , $58,000 for 13 children; and Westman, $1 27,000 for 25 children; which is a total of $465 ,000 for 121 children. Mr. Chairman: Item 3. (d)( 1) -pass; item 3.(d)

(2) Other Expenditu res, $1 70,300-pass. Item 3.(d)

(3) Financ ial Assistance, $2 1, 853,000, shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: No. Un der the External Agenc ies area, there are a numb er of grants that are ind icated, and the Minister had handed out as well an in dication of the new grant amounts. Could she tell us, the Brandon Citizen Advocacy In corporated, what is the nature of that organizatio n? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, I unde rstood we did not pass

(3) Financ ial Assistance. That is the line we are on. If you wish to pass that, then we could get to External Agencies. * (2 13 0) Ms. Gray: Ok ay, sorry, pass. Mr. Chairman: Item 3.(d)(3)-pass. Item 3.(d)

(4) External Agenc ies, $9 ,513 ,300.00. Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: No. Would the Minister indi cate to us the Brandon Citizen Advocacy In corpo rated, what the purpose of their organization is? Mrs. Oleson: The grant is to assist this organization with the administrative costs of recruiting, train ing and matching vo lun teers . to assist primar ily mental ly 1825

Monday, October 3, 1988 handi capped people in day-to-day living in a big brother or a big sister fashion. This organ ization services Bran don City and surrounding districts. Ms. Gray: With the grants that are given to the external agen cies, is this funding given in a block funding, in one lump sum? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, it is sometimes given quarterly and sometimes annua lly. lt depends on the size of the grant and the organization and cash flow. Ms.

Gray: In the granting of these dollars, are there specifications that are attached to the giving of these monies in terms of certain specifications or expectations that these external agencies must meet? Mrs. Oleson: They acqua int us with their programs and their objectives. They usually have a board in order for us to grant them funds. They, as I say, provide us with the objectives of their organ ization . Ms. Gray: Onc e these dollars are given out by the department, does anyone in the department monitor these funds to assure tha t th ey have been used appropriately throughout the year? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms.

Gray: Who does that? Mrs. Oleson: Program staff. Ms. Gray: Are these the program analysts who carry out that func tion? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, that is the case. Ms. Gray: With the dollars that are given out to the Association for Community Living, Manitoba Division, what types of activities does ACL carry out? Mrs. Oleson: They provide coordinatio n, supervision, consu ltation and evaluation func tions for programs delivered by 26 local branches.

The ACL promotes welfare and education of the mentally han dicap ped, acts as a central resource for information concerning the mentally hand icapped and is a link between local branches in Govern ment. Community Services provides an annual grant to the ACL and may purchase specific services on a con tract basis, the example being staff training, commu nity development, as required. Ms. Gray: Does the Minister have inf ormation as to what types of contr act services have been cont racted from ACL in the last fiscal year, and also has there been any cont ractual arrangements with ACL for this fiscal year? Mrs.

Oleson: We do not have any currently and we wi ll have to check to see what it was last year. We do not have that with us. Ms. Gray: I un derstand that ACL also has been involved in providing training to paraprofessional staff or staff who might work in community residences. Could the Minister confirm this? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I und erstand they performed that func tion a couple of years ago. Ms. Gray: Is the Minister aware if ACL is currently performing that training func tio n? Mrs. Oleson: They are, in depend ent ly. Ms.

Gray: Does part of the money that ACL receives from the Govern ment, is that no ted that some of that may go for training? Mrs. Oleson: lt is part of their objective to supply training to their member agenc ies. Ms. Gray: Does the Min ister kno w, are ACL involved at all with a training program jointly through Red River Community College? Mrs. Oleson: They are on the advisory committee. That is the input they have. Ms. Gray: Which advisory committee is the Minister referring to? Mrs. Oleson: They are on a course committee inv olved with Red River Community College which provides the course. Ms.

Gray: What criteria is used to determine the amount of money that each of these, not in dividually, but how is it determined or what criteria is used to determine the amount of monies that these external agencies will receive? Mrs. Oleson: lt has been in the past based on requests and what sort of funds are available. Things that you can take into consideration are what programs they provide. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, is the association for commu nity living funded at all for their advocacy role on behalf of the mentally han dicapped ? Mrs.

Oleson: They can perform that role with the funds they get. lt is a sustaining grant and they can provide advocacy within their objectives. Ms. Gray: The funding that goes for ACL, is that part of the und erstanding of this Govern ment, of the Department of Community Services, that some of the supports they provide are in the area of advocacy? Mrs. Oleson: They promote welfare and education of the mentally han dicapped and they act as a central resou rce for information concerning the mentally handic apped. They are a link between local branches and Government and that implies advocacy. Ms.

Gray: Are there other external agencies that would also be funde d for their advocacy role with the mentally hand icap ped? 1826

Monday, October 3, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: An other one would be the Manitoba Counci l of Rehabilitation and Work. There is another group, the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities, but theirs is a great deal more than advocacy. So I think probably the main group would be the Manitoba Council of Rehabilitation and Work. Ms. Gray: The Minister had in dicated earlier, no t within Estimates but in other statements she made, that her department might be looking at the role of advocacy groups and that perhaps there would be a move toward not funding advoca cy groups.

Could the Minister indicate, are there any external agencies that have been listed for '87-88 or '88-89 where that role of advocacy will not be considered in the funding? * (21 40) Mrs. Oleson: I do no t really kno w what statement the Member is referring to, but this department is mainly a service department and of course that is our major role, to be of service to people. I do not kno w what context she is talking about that I said that we would not be funding advocacy groups, because there are certain ly a great many ad vocacy groups in this department and my other department that are receiving funds. Ms.

Gray: The Minister has indi cated the Manitoba Council of Rehabilitation and Work in ACL who, in part, are advocacy groups. Could the Minister indi cate the other advocacy groups that this department funds? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, there are about 20 groups that I have listed here that are listed on page 55 of the Supplementary Estimates that have some advocacy role. That is not their only role, of course, but there are many of them that do have an advocacy role, so there are groups within this department that are fun ded and do have an advocacy role. Ms.

Gray: My question was specifically, given that a lot of these organ izations or agenc ies do play an advocacy role, does the department recognize that to the extent that advocacy role is considered in the funding that is given to these groups? Mrs. Oleson: lt is recognized by the funding that is provided for them. Mr. Speaker: Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: No. Could the Minister tell us what the Ind ependent In terpreter Referral Service is? Mrs. Oleson: They provide a service to facilitate commun ication between the hearing impaired and a wide range of social and health providers.

For instance, if a Government department wants someone to interpret for hearing impaired at a meeting or something like that, this is the service that we would call upon to provide that. They provide service to a wide range of people in the province. Ind ividuals, as well-in fact I just met with them last week so I am a little conversant with their activities and it was very inter esting to talk with them about the service that they provide.

For instance, one thing that they can provide, if a person who is deaf goes to their doctor, they could provide someone to interp ret for them and make it very much easier for them to get service from the doctor or from other agencies. lt is mostly a referral for meetings, that type of thing. If you are having a conf erenc e where you wanted that type of service, these are the people who could provide it. Ms .

Gray: The age ncies CNIB and So ciety for Man itobans with Disabilities, the funding that goes to these agenc ies, is this mone y for administ rative staff or is there any mone y as well that go for specific programs that these agencies might un dertake? Mrs . Oleson: The CNIB provides service to approximately 1, 600 blind persons in Mani toba. The agenc y provides vocat ional assessment, training , couns ell ing and job pla cement services, plus an adjustment training program for daily living. In addition, inform ation programs, specialized library services and recreation programs are offered.

An annual grant is provided in support of these programs. The grant for this year is $1.18 million. The society is the agency designa ted by the province as a primary provider of reh abilitation services to physically han dicapped children and adults. Services are provided to over 8, 000 indiv iduals during a year and include counselling, psychological assessment, medical diagn osis and assessment, vocat ional assessment, training and job placement. The grant is provided in support of these services. Ms.

Gray: Does the Department of Community Services basically totally fund these two organizations or do they receive substantial grants elsewhere? Mrs. Oleson: Approximately 80 percent of the funds that they receive are from us. They do get mone y from other sources. I think Un ited Way would be one. They may get some program assistance through Core Area Initiative in some cases. There is other funding available to them. Ms. Gray: Do these two organizations, particularly SMD , do they have access to VRDP monies through our department? Mrs.

Oleson: No, VR DP is a cost-sharing agreement for ind ividual clients, so this is not part of their grant. Ms. Gray: The mone y indi cated under these grants would not be part of that. But do these two agenc ies, do they send applicants or send applicatio ns to the same VRDP Committee that our staff do in terms of gaining approval to have dollars allocated for certain clie n ts and certain programs? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they do to the Vocational Training Committee. Ms. Gray: How is it decided whether an individual would use the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities as their 1827

Monday, October 3, 1988 advocacy or, let us say, use their caseworkers to gain approval through VRDP versus using our VRS program? Mrs. Oleson: They are the main agency for the physically hand icapped . Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: No. The EPC, Employment Preparation Centre, what is the target population that this centre what target population do they serve? Mrs.

Oleson: The evaluation and training centre in Winn ipeg operated by the Society for Mani tobans with Disabilities. lt provides vocational assessment and training and she ltered employment to approximately 175 physically han dicapped persons each year. The grant is in sup port of these services. Ms. Gray: In dividuals eligible for EPC, does this centr e J receive referrals through other sources other than SMD ? t Mrs. Oleson: SMD would do the majority of referrals. *

(2150) Ms. Gray: Could the Mi nister indic ate then for in dividuals, is it only for ind ividuals who have a physical � disabili ty who are eligible for EPC, or can an indiv idual have other disabilities, such as mental ill ness or mental retardation? Mrs. Oleson: They would be referred elsewhere, possibly to other programs. This is prima rily for physical ly disabled. Ms. Gray: The EPC, they do receive referrals though from regional offices, do they not? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms.

Gray: Therefore, there must be in dividuals who have other than physical disabilities since the regional offices would not pick up clients whose primary disability is physical? Mrs. Oleson: lt would depend on ind ivid ual need . Ms. Gray: Does the Socie ty for Manitobans with Disabi lities exclusively service in dividuals who have a physical disability and no other disabilities? In other words, are there any situations where in fact SMD may no t pick up these ind ividuals but where regions do? Mrs. Oleson: The y also servi ce the sensor y han dicapped . Ms.

Gray: Where an in dividual had a physical disability and was a Treaty Ind ian, does that make a difference as far as if SMD will work with those clients? Mrs. Oleson: No, that does no t make a difference. Ms. Gray: Does then the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities, would they pick up the costs as well for 1828 vocational training or perhaps through the VRDP joint funding? Would they pick up those costs or would the federal Government pick it up? Mrs. Oleson: If it is kno wn , we would make a claim to the federal Govern ment. Ms. Gray: The Minister indicates "we." Who is she referring to? Mrs.

Oleson: SMD provides services to anyone who comes there but, if they ask us to or if it becomes kno wn that it would be applicable to cost sharing, then we would apply for cost sharing. Ms. Gray: Is the Minister indicating that it is cost sharing through VRDP or through federal Ind ian Affairs? Mrs. Oleson: No, I should have made that clear. I meant through the federal Government with regard to Natives. Ms. Gray: Is there any difficulty with getting those dollars back from the federal Govern ment? Mrs. Oleson: We have no t been claiming really, but I have no in dication that there is any difficulty. * (2150 ) Ms.

Gray: Moving on to another external agency, Ten Ten Sincla ir housing, that particular agency is currently funded under Community Services. Is there any thought to move that funding to another department such as Department of Health? Mrs. Oleson: Not at the present time. lt is under this department. Ms. Gray: What services do Ten Ten Sincla ir provide which are funded for by this particular grant from Community Services? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, Ten Ten Sincla ir is a 75- unit residential complex and has 50 units especially designed for mod erate to severely physically han dicapped adults.

The complex is designa ted as a low rental housing and is subsidized by Manitoba Housing and Renew al. The objective of Ten Ten Sinclair is to assess, plan and train young disabled persons to develop Suitable skills so that, with appropriate equipment and support, they are able to live inde pendently in the community. The department's grant covers the cost of assessment, counselling, training and other associated expen ses other than food and shelter required to achieve these objectives. Ms. Gray: To clarify, Ten Ten Sincla ir housing then , it is not considered a long-term residential placement? Mrs.

Oleson: That is correct. Ms. Gray: What is the average length of stay or what is the program? What is considered as a length of stay

Monday, October 3, 1988 for an indiv idua l going into that assessment and evaluation unit? Mrs. Oleson: The department officials in dicate they will have to check but they think the average is about 18 to 20 months. Ms. Gray: Has Ten Ten Sinclair asked for any inc reases In their grants from this department? Mra. Oleson: Yes, they have. Ms. Gray: What Is the nature of the req uest for an incr ease? Mrs. Oleson: We have not got inf ormation at hand of how much they requested, but they got $678,300 last year and this year they are receiving $698,700.00.

Staff in dicate that their request was to provide a heavier level of care. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister in dicate, in giving this slight incr ease this year to Ten Ten Sincla ir, what was the rationale for that incr ease? What was it to cover, to incl ude? Mrs. Oleson: lt is the same as most agencies , and the guideline that was used was a 3 percent incr ease. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us how this 3 percent guideline was developed? Mrs. Oleson: lt was reached keeping in mind available resources and trying to get a handle on the deficit. We had to limit the Incr eases to 3 percent. Ms.

Gray: Was there a consider ation that perhaps the inc reases should be at min imum, at the rate of infla tion ? Mrs. Oleson: All Go vernment departments are operating under the same guideline. lt would be very nice to meet the rate of infl ation or go beyond that, but 3 percent was the guideline that we found it necessary to use. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, what is the waiting list for people entering Ten Ten Sincla ir? Mrs. Oleson: We would have to get that informa tion from Ten Ten Sincla ir. We do not keep that inform ation here. Ms.

Gray: I would think though that somewhere in the Minister's department they would have that informati on, given that perhaps the waiting list going to Ten Ten might have some bearing on what the inc rease to this agency would be. The Mini ster had indi cated earlier that they had requested more dollars because of heavier care. Is this a request to expand their facilities so that they can take in clients with heavier care, or are they conc erne d about the clients they already try to provide the service for? Mrs.

Oleson: No, they were not going to expand the number of beds. lt was to expand the service they gave to indiv iduals. These are people who are coming out of hospital and there are varying levels of care required. That was one thing they had indi cated that they needed to or they would like to have more funds in order to provide a different type of service. Ms. Gray: Is there a particular per diem allowance or amount that is given per client, depending on the level at Ten Ten Sincla ir? Mrs. Oleson: This is a service grant. No, there is no set per diem. This agenc y is provided with a service grant. Ms.

Gray: Does Ten Ten Sincla ir have to follow certain guidelines in regard to the numb er of ind ivid uals that they have within their residential system at any one time who may be at any given level of care? Is there sort of a minim um-maximum amount of ind ividua ls which they can care for? Mrs. Oleson: Each resident has to sign an agreement to participate in a particular program. That is how they 4 operate. Ms. Gray: This service grant that we provide, does this pay for all the services that would be required to assist these indiv iduals who live in Ten Ten Sincla ir? Mrs.

Oleson: lt covers the cost of asse ssment, couns ellin g, training and other associated expenses, other than food and shelter. Ms. Gray: The Minister is indicating it covers everything other than food and -what was the second one? food and shelter. Does this service grant then include any type of personal hygienic care or medical care that these indiv iduals may require? Mrs. Oleson: This is strictly training in independent living, so their other needs would be financed in another way. Some of them may be on social assistance. Some may be working as well. Ms.

Gray: How does the Home Care Program tie into Ten Ten Sincla ir, or does it? Mrs. Oleson: lt would be used as a follow-up, Ten Ten mana ges the Fokus Program as well. Ms. Gray: Do in dividuals in Ten Ten Sincla ir, are th ey eligi ble for home care services as well as these services that they receive in Ten Ten? *

(2200) Mrs. Oleson: No, that is what this program provides them. Ms. Gray: Would some of these in dividuals living in Ten Ten Sincla ir not require orderly services? Mrs. Oleson: lt is available on site, I understand. Ms. Gray: Are these orderlies hired by Ten Ten Sinclair? Are they part of their staffing complement? 1829

Monday, October 3, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: I understand they are part of their staffing complement. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: No, no. Mr. Chairman: The hour being 10 p.m., committee rise. Mrs. Oleson: We might as well finish this section, Mr. Chairman, if there is a will to finish it. Mr. Chairman: I do not think there is. Committee rise. *

(2000) SUPPLY-AGRICULTURE Mr. Chairman, Mark Minenko: I call this

section of the Committee of Supply to order, please. We are continuing to consider the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. We are presently on item 2. at page 12 in the Main Estimates of Expen diture of the Province of Manitoba. The Honou rable Member for Fort Garry. Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Chairperson, I will start off with a somewhat general question, and it relates to the fact that the federal Min ister of Agriculture, or the former one, Mr. Wise, was certainly on record as wan ting to have some major chan ges made in Crop Ins urance in terms of the way in which the funding was done.

I wonder whether the Min ister could give us any ide a as to wha t he sees as the potential benefits as opposed to the negative aspects of the province getting more heavily involved in premiums, and whether the Min ister is still firmly of the view that the province should no t get involved in the payment of premiums and should stay within the area of adminis tration and leave the pr emiums to the prod ucer and to the federal Go vernment. Hon.

Glen Findlay (Min ister of Agriculture): Certainly this proposal that the Member brings forward has been co nsidered somewhat. lt was up for discussion at the Min isters' of Agriculture meeting this past year. As I recall, there was no province that jumped up and said: "I want to pay more. " Really, as far as the province is concerned right now, roughly just to use round figures here, the premiums paid by the producers are, on a no rmal year, about $20 million. The federal Government then puts in about $20 milli on and the admin istration side tha t we pay is about $4 million.

In terms of the benefits, if we were to go to some other sharing rela ti onship, it wou ld accrue to the farmers. The farmers are now paying $20 million and, if we were to go to one-third/one-third/one-third, the farmer would end up paying about $15 million, a third of say $45 million. If we went to a position where the two Governme nts paid each 25 percent and the farmer 50 percen t, he wou ld be payi ng about $22 million. So clearly the farmer would benefit if he was to go to one third/one-third/one-third.

Our cost would then go from $4 million up to 415 million, an additional $1 1 million cost, which clearly is something we do not have the resources for. So general ly, I would have to say that our position is like the majority of provinc es, as far as I am aware, are of the opinion that we should stay with what we have got, 50-50 in the premiums between the federal Govern ment and the producer, and the province paying the adminis trative side of it. So clearly, as I said earlier, if we went to one-third/ one-third/one-third, the farmer would pay less premium.

You might argue that might be an attraction to bring more farmers into the program if they are paying less premium but, through the tax dollars, we would have to pick up an additional $11 million. Mr. Laurie Evans: I guess the question really becomes though, if the provincial Government assumes a greater responsibil ity for the premiums, then that is spread across all the taxpayers as opposed to it being the producer.

I guess what I am really asking is, does the Minis ter feel that there is justificat ion in spreading this cost across the entire taxpayer range, rather than having that large a share of it falling on the producer because I think there is-when one looks at it, obviously if there is crop insurance and the individual produc ers are well protected, then you are not faced with the levels of deficienc y payment, or perhaps even one cou ld antici pate that there might be a mechanism in place where there would be other subsidies or support systems that would not have to be brought in to play if the crop insu rance was more equally distributed and the producers found it more attractive.

Mr. Findlay: He could argue that question either way. Clearly, there are benefits to the producer if we shared it over all the taxpayers. Do not forget this provinc e only has one million taxpayers. Ontario, for ins tance, has six million or more. They are much more able to spread it more thinly over their citizens than what we are. I guess, when you consider that you are getting risk protection like the farmers have in crop in surance, I do not think it is out of line that they should pay 50 percent of the premium.

I know, generally speaking, it works out to $3 and $4 per acre for a producer. lt is no t a lot of cost, but the protection is relatively good. If we get forced into a position of having to make a real tough decision on it, if the federal Government gives us notice, then we will take it back to the producers and get a reading from them as to what direction they would prefer to see it go. Mr. Laurie Evans: Would it be feasible to go the opposite direction and argue that crop in surance is really a benefit to all citizens of Canada, and that perhaps the federal Government should pick up a larger share?

If that approach was taken, would it not be feasible to expect that the major agricultural provinces in Canada could join together and put more pressure on the federal Government to still pick up a bigger share? 1830

Monday, October 3, 1988 Mr. Findlay: Are you saying bigger than 50 percent? Well, it might be a nice thing to advance the argument, but the opportunity of winn ing it is extremely slim. Their position has been that they want to be paying less. An Honourable Member: lt would not be done in an election year. Mr. Findlay: I guess we are into that right now.

Certainly there are benefits to the province, benefits to the producers if we get the federal Government to pick up a la rger share, because the ben efits of producing a crop and the stimula tion to the economy that it produces not only in the area where the crop is produced but the transpor tation component, the process ing component, and then the countr y of Canad a-what percentage of jobs are directly and indir ectly related to agriculture?-some 15 percent. So there are a lot of producers and also there are a lot of people who are not producers that benefit from the agricultural indu stry.

Any money that goes into the farm economy , whether it is in paying for grain or livestock produced on the farm or whether it goes in as crop insu rance or any other kind of Government money, it goes right through the economy and it benefits everybody. There is no question about that. But I think the opportunity of wi nn ing that argument, of getti ng the federal Government to pay more, would be a tough uphill battle. Mr.

Laurie Evans: Can the Minister give us any rationale as to why the provinces that are already partici pating in the premium payment did that? lt seems to me that is sort of a thin edge of the wedge. I think you have in dicated there are two provinces, I believe, Ontar io and one in the Maritimes, is it? * (20 10) Mr. Findlay: Yes, the two provinces are Quebec and Newfoundland . But I guess in th eir

part i cular circumstance the cost of administration is so high relative to the premiums paid, it is cheaper for them to pay 25 percent of the overall cost than it is to pay just the ad ministration part of it. For those provinces, they consider it to be the better deal for them. Mr. Laurie Evans: I believe in reading the annua l report, the comment is made that there is no charge for the buildings and the physical facilities that are used. Why is this not somehow or other calcu lated into the provincial input so that the figures are a little more comparable?

In other words, what you are sayin g that the province provides is really an underestimate without those being include d, and is there some reason why that is not added in? Mr. Findlay: In Portage, Beausejour, Dauphin and Virden and some other cent res, we are located in a Government building and are not paying any lease. Right now, we are not paying postage, but next year the corporation will be paying its postage.

The perceived costs that \A.rere being saved by not payi ng the !ease would appear to be somewhere in the vicinity of 1831 $300,000 to $400,000 of lease benefits that we are receiving from the Government. An Honourable Member: I think it was the head office. Mr. Findlay: Yes, it does include the head office. Mr. Laurie Evans: Moving into some of the more specific things again, in dealing with the spot hail insu rance, can that be purchased on acreage that is not insur ed if the person requesting that insu rance is a partici pant by having some of his acreage covered?

In other words, can you get hail insu rance on anything that has no t got All-Risk on it? Mr. Findlay: The answer basically is no. You can only get Hail Spot Loss coverage on acres that are unde r the All-Risk that you have recorded under All-Risk. But the

Part 11 Hail, which is the Additional Hail, can be purchased on any acres whether they are covered by All-Risk or not. There are two options in hail insu rance: No. 1, the Hail Spot Loss only on acres that you insu re;

Part 11 Hail can be on any acres on the farm whether they are covered by All-Risk or not. Mr. Laurie Evans: I just wanted to get that straight. So a producer who is not participating in crop insu rance at all can come into the corporation and get hail insu rance? Mr. Findlay: No, he must hold a contr act to get

Part 11 Hail. But when I was referring to a producer, let us say he has 1,000 acres in total crop but he only insu res 600 through the All-Risk. He can only insur e 600 on Hail Spot Loss but, on

Part 11 Hail, he can insur e 1,000 acres. Mr. Laurie Evans: On the basis that the producer essentially pays all of the cost of hail insur ance, what is the rationale for not allowing them to participate in hail insu rance if they do not have crop insu rance for other than hail? Why the restriction on allowing the purchase of hail insu rance? Mr. Findlay: Really the Hail Spot Loss is pretty low cost hail insur ance and is put in there as a benefit to the producer that actually puts those acres under All Risk. If I recall my own case, Hail Spot Loss was about 1. 8 percen t,

Part 11 Hail would be about 3.6 percent. You can see that if you allowed that to happen the producer would cover very little acres under All-Risk. lt would put a whole pile of acres under the Hail Spot Loss because of the advantage of that low premium. In the

Part 11 Hail, we are competing with all the province's companies that supply hail, so we have to make that part open to the producer for his ent ire acreage because they are completely separate. You are saying about the administ rative costs covered by hail insu rance, that is really only on the

Part 11 Hail, not on the Spot Loss. Mr. Laurie Evans: Ano ther area that I noticed in reading through is the-and I think it is becoming more of a problem -�\ ��.tho!e issue cf pest:cidcs. ! thir.k :t is qui te clear in there that there is no coverage for pesticide

Monday, October 3, 1988 damage but I wonder whether this can be completely separated. Is there no t a possibility that you are already covering for some pesticide damage in terms of crops that do no t properly emerge, that may be in fact emerging rather poorly because of residual effects? I can anticipate that this might be a more serious problem in the spring of 1989 in the drought areas. Mr. Findlay: There are very few claims that are denied because of that, just the odd one per year.

Certainly the staff that are out there, the adjusters, are looking for both post-emergence damage and damage from a carry-over of a residue in the soil. Their objective is to identify either kind of pesticide damage.

Certainly what the Member is saying is very true that, because of the dry soil condi tions, there is going to be a lot of potential carry-over of Treflan, things like Glean and Tordon certainly could create problems. lt is the job of the adjuster to look at the sequence of crops relative to the chemical history, if he suspects that there has been some degree of damage on that par ticula r crop becaus e of a residue, eit her pre emergence or post-emergence. So the adjuster is to look for both and actually it is more easy to detect some than others.

The yell owed-leaf situation is fairly easy to detect, but a stunted crop sometimes if it is say the crop is retarded by 10 percent or 15 percent or 20 percen t, it might be hard to detect that.

If it is retarded to the extent of 50 percent or 60 percent or 70 percent, it is much easier to pick up. lt could be definitely a bigger problem, and I think it is going to have to be the objective of the department as spring approaches, say around about April, to start getting some news releases out warning producers of the potential risk of certain residue carry-overs from the previous year, particularly in the dry southern area. lt is the job of Extension to get that message out loud and clear, and maybe even earlier than April. Our farm meetings throughout the after-new-year period, get that message out. Mr.

Laurie Evans: This is moving into a little different area, but I think it is probably a logical time to dwell on it. lt is the whole que stion of pesticides. I think there are a lot of producers out there now who feel they really have no recourse when they have purchased herbicides, have used them in the manner that is prescribed, and either find that they have un expected crop damage or they do not have the efficacy of control of weeds that they expected. *

(2020) They are hung out to dry, in a sense, because I think the chemical companies, in partic ular in this drought year have-I think I have seen them quo ted where they said, if you do not get enough moisture, you do not expect a good crop. Why should you expect the chemicals to work perfectly if you have abnormal enviro nmental con ditions? I think a lot of producers feel they should have some recourse if they are not getting the type of response from chemicals that they anticipate.

Do you see any mechanism where this can be looked at, or is it something that should be done ent irely separate from crop insur ance? Mr. Findlay: Crop insur ance adj usters are instruc ted to look at a field, and they figure maybe the person used a chemical and it did not work. If they can see the same chemical on other farms in the same area and the same kind of response occur, that the chemical did not work, they will not penalize the producer for bad farming practices.

But if they find that his is the only field in a particular area where that sort of crop did not respond to a chemical, then they will look at assessing bad farming practices because of a lack of knowing how to use a chemical. Certainly I think you are getting at a much larger question than the ability of producers to get reimbursed for imp roperly acting chemicals. lt has been a long standing situation that farmers have not been happy when they approach chemical companies because, say, Treflan did not work or Hoe-Grass did not work, which are two of the more common ones for wild oats and mille t.

As the Mem ber well kno ws, we now have trif lu ralin-tolerant millet, which does not help the situation any, and so it becomes more difficult to assess. That is out in the southwest part where millet seems to love the dry con ditio ns. So we are going to have a real problem in the future in that particular area.

Certain ly, there has been a voice out in the farm community saying, let us have some leverage on our dealing with the chemical companies to get reimbursed for imp roperly acting chemicals because, nine times out of ten or maybe, say, 98 times out of 100, where a farmer takes a complaint to a chemical company rep, the stand ard ans we r was you did no t follo w the directions. You did not incorp orate right, you did not spray un der the right con ditions. That is the standard answer.

I tell you, many farmers have now taken the position there is no sense of bothering to lay a complaint for an impr operly acting chemical . You are just wasting your time because they know they are going to get the runa round, and they are very unlikely to get any kind of proper settlement when they go to the company. So this past year, the Weed

Section under Barry Todd picked out three cases to try to find a method of arbitrating between the farmer and the chemical company, some degree of proper compensation for lack of activity. This is further on in the Estimates but I think that, as I recall the discussion, the three cases where three of them were picked to represent three different kinds of condit ions: one for pre-emerging chemicals, one for post-emerging chemical, and I just do not spot the third one. They h ave gone through two reviews, reviews on two of them. The general opinion of the Weed

Section is that it is not working satisfactorily, the volun tary arbitration or mediation to get resolved in those circumstances is not working properly at all. The Mem ber may recall a particular case in southern Manitoba here where it went to court and the person was awarded damages by the court. I think the person's name was Mr. Clarence Siemens . I see the Member smiling. He knows a bit of the history behind that name, but he was awarded damages by the court to some significant amount of mon ey. I do no t recall the amount off the top of my head bot it was a,significant amount of money which may cause chemical companies to look 1832

Monday, October 3, 1988 more closely at how they are making recommendations. If the Member has some way, kno ws of some way we can get a better settlement process for farmers who have a case for a chemical that did not work when they followed all the instruc tio ns, that is a tough one to answer. I can tell the Member that this past summer was probably one of the classical summers. Because of the heat and the stress that the crop was under, because of drought that the plants, not only the crop did no t take up the chemical very well, neit her did the weeds.

Certainly producers who sprayed anywhere between ten in the morning and six at night probably did not get very much control, but those who went at four in the morning or sprayed from eig ht to ten at nig ht did receive somewhat better kind of weed control. So there is an onus on the producer if he is spending the mone y to tl)i to do his very best to apply the chemical at the right time and under the right con ditions. I think ther e is also an onus on the chemical com pa nies to know more about how the ir own chemicals respond under these kind of varying climatic con ditions that we get.

There is no such thing as a normal year anymore. lt is either too windy, too dry, too hot, too wet or too something. I thin k, as far as I am concerned , that one of the chemicals that has had the greatest problem of doing the job it is being sold to do, and that is Hoe-Grass. There are a tremendous amount of unha ppy producers for about three years in a row now, a chemical that when it first came out, under mor e normal growing con ditio ns, did a tremen dous job. So many producers went from pre-emergent wild oat control and millet control to post-emergent.

Now they have been burnt, by and large, two out of the last three years particularly with the conditions un der which they have been applying it. I do not think the chemical company has really responded with recommenda tions to try to offset the im pact of the clim actic con ditions. But so far, the process of trying to volu ntarily negotiate some degree of adequa te sett lement has been extr emely unsuccessful from the farmers' point of view. Mr. Laurie Evans: Could the Minister elaborate a little bit on why there has not been success?

Is it the chemical companies themselves that are reluctant to allow this system to work or just what seems to be the hold up there? Mr. Findlay: I guess I could answer the question briefly. I would suggest that the staffpeople who should be here to answer the question will be here under 4.(

d) under Soils and Crops. But really, it has been the chemical compan ies' reluctance. They are selling a product and the idea is to no t get involv ed in costly settlements. Probably they believe in their own line that they are right and the producer did something that was not totally correct accordi ng to the label ins tructions relative to the weather and all that sort of thing. Actually, you canno t blame them for fighting to protect their chemicals. If they ever got started into a series of settlements, one thing it would do, it would certain ly cost them a lot of mon ey.

You kno w what will happen , in the long term, they turn it around and they add risk factor into the price of the chemical . Everybody at the producer level eventually ends up paying. lt is difficult to say which way a guy should go. In the short term, yes, you go after them for settlements but, in the long term, who pays for those settlements? lt is the producer who uses those chemicals in the future. I guess I tend to believe that producers who are spending mone y have to spend a little bit of time considering what they are applyin g, what the conditions are and try to adjust.

If the conditions are not right today, can you wait two days for maybe cooler weather or whatever? If you are spending a lot of mone y, you have to do your best to try to get the control. If you do not get the contr ol, you lose. You lose in terms of crop competition this year, the weeds go to seed, you are spraying that weed for how many years to come because of the weed infestation going into the field. So a producer has a lot to gain by being sure that the money he has spent is well used in terms of weed contr ol.

Whether we pursue the compan ies through a legal route, we get settlements no w, you kno w as well as I do who is going to pay in the long run because the risk factor will be added into the price of the chemical. Mr. Laurie Evans: I do not want to pursue this issue too much further. What is the Minister's instruction to his own staff when they are confronted with the possibility, and I guess in many cases, the probability of having to appear as expert witnesses in these cases that do go the legal route.

I kno w this is certainl y a concern with the faculty that they get into these things when they really do not want to. *

(2030) Mr. Findlay: As professional agrologists, all they can do when called forward if they are subpoenaed , they must appear. They must give the technical informa tion as best they know as agrologists. They are not there to falsely protect the farmer or falsely protect the chemical compan y. I believe they are there to assess the situation as they see it as professional agrologists and give expert opini on, basis the inf ormation as they see it. I do not think they are there to protect any particular side. They are there as third-party technical people. Mr.

Laurie Evans: I guess there are two questions in the same vein. One is, is this becoming a significant time factor as far as staff are concerned in getting inv olved in litigation? Secondly, I have heard a few producers suggest a possibility of a herbicide hotline where there would be a contact where they could phone into a central office and get advice on a particular herbicide on a particular day, that type of thing , which would I suppose have some similarities to the Hort Line.

With the numb er of chemicals that are now available, many of them ident ified as being capable of doing much the same job, I thin k it is asking quite a bit of a scientist and a producer to be on top of all of these chemicals so that they can give a quick answer. Maybe there is a necessity for having a central resource where farmers can make a call and get some expert advice on short notice. 1833

Monday, October 3, 1988 Mr. Findlay: We canno t honestly give you an answer on what amount of time. I think when Barry Todd is here we will be in a better position. He will have a better handle on it. In terms of a hot line so that a producer with a particular question, a particular day, a particular chemical , a particular crop, he goes out and sees conditions and he wants to know something, I thin k he has one of two things he can do. The first thing he should think of is calling the ag rep. If the ag rep does not have the answer, he should immediately refer him to the Weed

Section here in Winn ipeg , to Barry Todd or somebody in that department. The second thing he could do is call the Weed

Section directly, the producer, so there is a hot line available. Maybe it is not well enough publicized and maybe we need to beef it up somewhat in terms of people because there is a tremen dous variety of que stions that could come forward on very short no tice. Those are tough questions to an swer, as you can appr eciate. You think you rself ans weri ng th ose questions, and you kno w that thousands of dollars are riding on that answer you give. Can you go any further than just reading the recommenda tion that is on the can?

Can you, in terms of legal liability, should you, as giving advice, go any further that, because there is potential liability on your part as a department person if you say any thing different than what is on, either published in the recommenda tion guide-the nice bible that every farmer carries with him, a very good booklet, excellent informa tion. I do not kn ow if you dare do anything but read that or read what is on the label of that particular supplier's chemical. If you do any thing else, there is a probability you cou ld get sued because you ga ve him false inf ormation.

I do not kno w how you protect yourself if you get sued from a technical point of view. You always like to say, you kno w if you do this, this will probably happen or Joe Blow did this and he got away with it.

When you are on the end of the telephone and you do not kno w the guy on the other end, my recommenda tion to staff is stick with what is printed because of the potential liability because that guy could come back at you. lt may be sometimes they will phone you with the idea they are going to get you to say something that they can use later, and those kinds of people are around. lt is a very diffic ult question to an swer. The Hort Line is fine. You are not dealing with dollars and liabilities.

When you are talking chemicals, you are dealing with potential liability, and I think technical staff would be hard pressed to go beyond, as I said , what is printed either on the label or in that inf ormation guide. Mr. Laurie Evans: One comment before I turn it over to the Member for the ln terlake (Mr.

Uruski), that is, while I appreciate what the Mi nister has said and I agree with him fully, it is creating some major problems not only with his own department, I would assume, but with the Faculty of Agriculture and others where we are almost to the point now where, No. 1, you escape the phone calls if you can , and secondly you are very reluctant to ident ify who is actually speaking. If you do go that far, then you have a printed disclaimer that you supposedly find out who you are talking to and send this disclaimer out.

I would love to be able to tell the Mini ster that there is a simple solution to this and I do not kno w whose responsibility it is, but it certainly must be creating lots of problems for all those who are in the Extension area. This seems to be one of the most volati le one s no w because of the level, as the Minister indicates, of dollars that are involv ed, not only the cost of the chemical but the imp lications when it does not work or wherein it does a lot of damage. I have no solution to it, but I certainly agree with his conc ern. Mr.

Findlay: Certainly as the Member kno ws, there has been a vast increase in the numb er of those kinds of calls that have occurred in particularly this past year, and they may well continue this coming year. You are well aware of the potential problems that exist and I think, as I said earlier, recommendations to staff cannot be any different than just, "you have to be very careful of what you are sayin g." Another question that often comes up is mixing. We should not mix Chemical A with Chemical B or Chemical C with Chemical D, and there are lots of producers out there doing mixing that is no t recommended.

They will sometimes get away with it under certain conditions, certain temperatures. Then if you recommend that to the next guy down the road, he has different acidity in his water and it may not work. I know I even tried some combinations that were not recommended that worked, but you take that risk upon yourself. But you as a professional agrologist could not recommend that to anybody. I do no t think it is advisable at all. If a producer talks to a producer down the road and he finds out something and he wants to try it, that is his risk, but he has nobody to blame but himself if it does not work. Mr.

Bill Uruski (lnterlake): I would like to ask the Minister, can the corporation indicate or can the Minister in dicate to us what would be the additional premium cost in an estimated figure if, for example, barley initial prices were runn ing at $60 or the coverage level was runn ing at $60 and then the increase would have gone from $60, say, to $120 a tonne, a virtual doubling of the barley prices. What would that have meant in premium costs to farmers had a change been made by the corporation?

Let us say the federal Govern ment was amenable to the suggestion made by myself and the Minister from Albe rta that in itial prices should go up - (lnterjectionr or the Associate Minister, but responsible for the Alberta Crop In surance, Shirley Cripps. Those suggestions were made. Can the corporation in dicate what would have been the impact on premiums of farmers? *

(2040) Mr. Findlay: You are referring to the initial price of barley jumping from $60 to $120 a tonne? Okay. The basic reaction in terms of premium increase would be a doubling. In other words, from $1.20 to $2.40 per acre would be the cost of the insu rance if the coverage level was to go from $60 to $120.00. 1834

Monday, October 3, 1988 Mr. Uruski: Would that have resu lted in incr eased acreage coverage based on farmers' costs of production versus what the coverage would have been? Mr. Findlay: In any given in stance where you had the same number of bushels, which is I am sure what you are talking about, the coverage would double because the dollar value doubled. Mr.

Uruski: The initial prices-maybe the Minis ter can clarify the cont ract dates and the dates that all the dots have to be crossed or the dots and the t's have to be crossed as to the timing of the initial prices when in fact they were annou nced this year versus any deadlines that the corporation had. Was it possible, if the federal Government was amenable, to make those kinds of changes? Mr. Findlay: Ok ay, just take wheat. lt is the one I can remember the easiest.

The corporation sent a letter out in March, I believe it was, well before the end of April anno uncing what the coverage level would be if wheat was $10 0 a tonne, because that was the initial price as they und erstood it was likely to be.

But right in that letter it said, if the federal Government incr eased the initial price of wheat before the end of April, which is the deadline for making any changes in the cont ract, if it incr eased by whatever amount, then the coverage level for wheat would go up by the same amount. lt did incr ease by $10 a tonne around the middle of April so automatically the coverage level went from $10 0 to $1 10 .00. After April 30, there was another in crease in the ini tial price, maybe July or something like that so that was clearly after the cont ract was settled at the end of April.

Therefore, there was no automatic incr ease and in fact no change because the cont ract had been set, the premiums had been set, the notic es had been sent out and everything was in place. Those have been the guidelines. That has been the standard practice for a number of years. As the Member remembers, three or four years ago, the ini tial price went down and crop insu rance did not drop the coverage that year. They kept it up. So the farmers gained at that time and theoretically we could say they lost this time.

But as we talked about it here, the time before I guess we talked about maybe looking at methods of keeping that contr act open if the farmer so chooses. If he wants to keep the contr act open until a later date, let us say, end of July maybe, and he settles. But if he keeps it open, he has to take whatever crop price is in effect at that time and has to pay the premium according ly. There are two ways for a farmer to look at it. He may not want to risk a higher premium because he may know he will not be in a coverage position.

That option is something that could be offered in the future and the producer would have to decide at the end of April whether he wanted to close his contract or leave it open and accept whatever it ended up to be, whatever price level, whatever premium. Mr. Uruski: Mr. Chairman, there is no doubt, I recall the deba tes in this Hous e-1 believe it was over canol a-where it was much more beneficial to be in a claim position in a canola crop, I believe in'85 I think it was, when the market prices nose-dived and the insur ance coverage far exceeded the commercial value of the crop.

The Min ister puts on the table certainly a concept, one that should be seriously consi dered by himself and by the corporation, the option of the contract remaining open. The big debate through all the years and even this year has been the inabili ty of the corporation to take on more and more farmers. One of the most vociferous debates that we have had in this Chamber, the Min ister of Financ e (Mr. Manne ss), himself a farmer and others, that at the time of escalating costs of production that the coverage level did not cover your input costs.

That was the claim made by Con servative after Con servative when they were in Opposition. What better option to at least put on the table in these times but to say here is an option of leaving the cont ract open and, if the prices go down, you live with it and, if the ini tial prices go up, you live with it or you lock them in. Basically, the farmer has to make a decision but he does have a choice in terms of the changes that might occur in that crop year.

I would urge the Min ister to look at that conc ept very seriously, recognizing that there is no other way of operating than what has been operated for the last 28 years of the corporation in terms of where they are at. Mr. Chairman, I want to follow up on some questions that we talked about last week regarding the financial position of the corporation. Can the Minis ter indic ate to me whether the corporation in its history has ever been in a net deficit position of the magnitude that it is in this year? Mr.

Findlay: Before I an swer that question, I will just comment a little bit on the Min ister's previous comments there before he asked the question. There is never a foolproof time when a producer can make a decision. What I have said, we are going to look at and hopefully offer it as an option for this coming year for producers who choose to leave their cont ract open. * (2050) lt is my feeling that all producers have to commit to a con tract by the end of April. The right to enter a contract, that has to be up front before you get the crop in the ground, before you kno w what is apt to happen.

I guess I just throw out this situation that we are in this year, particularly with canola, with producers having forward priced at an attractive price in anywhere from Janua ry through to April or even into May, when $6 and $6.50 looked very attractive, and the y signed into cont ract on a certain level of production. lt was securing your in come, it was risk protection, it was all the right kind of thin gs. We promoted it in the department. The lending in stitutions promoted it too, lock in your prices when you feel that price is good, and look what happened .

A lot of producers did not have the crop to fill the cont ract and, for those who did have a crop, it was worth $2 a bushel more when it came the time to sell it than what the cont ract they were comm itted to. 1835

Monday, October .3, 1988 So you always have to live with your decisions, and that is one that has been particularly troublesome for many producers and it may end up in · lawsuits with grain compan ies, particularly our co-ops being hard hit by producers who opt out of the cont ract. But getting to the question, the answer is no, never has a corporation been in a deficit in both reinsu ranc e pools. In 19 80, the Man itoba Reinsur ance went into a deficit but not the Federal Reinsu rance Fund.

So this time, both reinsu rance funds are in deficit and it is the fi rst time ever in the life of the corporation here in Manitoba. Mr. Uruski: Mr. Chairman , can the Min ister indic ate how the fina ncial experts identify and descri be this situation in terms of the deficit position. What do you call it? Is it a contingent liabili ty? Mr. Findlay: According to the Reinsu rance Agreement, the federal and provincial Govern ments will be giving advan ces with no interest to the corporation of the amount of the deficit in those two pools. lt will show as a payable to those two reinsurance funds by the corporation.

The producer will be totally paid for all his indemni ties. We will have no outstan ding account with any producers, they will all be paid. We will just have a repayable to in surance funds with no in terest charge. Mr. Uruski: Can I ask the Min ister whether he considers tha t financial mism anagement on the part of the Govern ment? Mr. Findlay: I do not think that is a fair question, because crop insu rance was set up to in sure producers from the risk of crop loss and that is clearly what we are doing. We are operating according to guidelines established over a lot of years.

The previous high payout was around $55 million in 19 80 and this year it is going to be, as I said the other day, approximately $10 0 million. lt is no fault of the corporation, it is no fault of the financial mana gement of the corporation, or the financial management of anybody else. lt is clearly a response to cov ering the risk element tha t we comm itted ourselves to when we signed up those producers in the spring of 19 88.

The rei nsu rance accounts in Saskatchewan and Alberta, because of previous droughts of'84 and'85, have fairly large payouts, have been in a deficit position for the time in the last two years. The Prairies are the last province to get into this position of a deficit in the reins urance accounts. Mr. Uruski: Over .the last numb er of months, we have had a lot of deba te in th is Cham ber about the management of a claims function .

We have had a debate on Workers Compensation, generally a claims-taking body that looks after inju ries of workers, sets up a claims function and sets up a liabil ity to pay claims over the next five years, 2, 5, 10 or 20 years. We had Members of the Conservative Party ind icating that corpor;:�tion, because of the claims function -and those were claims that did not have to be paid today. Those were claims that are on the books for the next 5, 10 1836 or 20 years. They called that contingent liabili ty a fina ncial mess and financial mismana gement . on the part of the previous admin istration.

Here we have a situation where this corporation, on its day-to-day operations, has to be advanced mone y because it has to pay the claims of farmers. lt is right and it should be done. I am one of those who agrees with the way that the corporation operates and the way the fin ancial ins truments are set up. So I do not want the Minis ter to say that no w I am playing the other side.

What I am saying, I want to show the Minis ter, Members on his side, the hypocrisy of their position, that it was okay for Workers Compensation to be financially mismanaged when there are claims-the liabili ty in excess of $10 0 million that is established over the next 20 years or longer is a fina ncial mess. Here we have a situation which the corporation cannot buy a cup of coffee because it is broke. lt needs welfare from the Government. lt needs an advance from the Government to pay farmers' claims. There are no future liabili ties. The Min ister is shaking his head, no.

The fact of the ma tter is the corpora tion needs the Govern ment to advance it mon ies to operate. lt cannot do otherwise. There are no reserves. Even the premium structure has to be used up on a day-to-day basis. I want this Mini ster to tell me how the situation in crop insu rance today is different from the situation that we have in Workers Compensation, where we have in excess of $10 0 million of liabili ties and the corporation is no t broke. Its cash flow is there.

You do no t even have cash flow, so you explain it to the taxpayers of this province how you are not operating and mana ging this corporation or mismanaging this corporation in the way that you are handling it. Mr.

Findlay: Given what the corporation is trying to dQ and how it has responded in terms of dealing with the emergency in front of us of protecting the farmers from the risk of a crop loss, I consider it to tally inapp ropriate that the Member would try to take a slam at the corporation for "mismanagi ng" is what you said-you used the word "mismanaging." The previous Min ister well kno ws that Workers Compensation and MP IC, which I am sure is in the back of his mind, the losses there are at a much more predictable fashion than what we are dealing with here.

You could not predict when you were in Govern ment, nor any other soul walking on this world could have predicted what the losses would have been for 19 88 any time prior to June of this year. Nobody cou ld predict that. lt is a total large-it is a completely up-what you call a roller coaster kind of a response in terms of the risk element that the corporation faced. • (2 10 0) Those other corporations, there is a predictabil ity associated with the claims that come in. Year-to·year, the claims do not vary all that much, plus or minus 10 percent or something in that order, the magnitude is a variance.

Here we are talking about the largest claim ever in the history of the corporation of some-what?- 28 years. twice the previous high, absolutely twice. So

Monday, October 3, 1988 there is no way that the corporation can be faulted for the way they handle d the premiums this year. If the y had raised the premiums with us in Government, you would have been the first to stand on your feet and howl because they raised the premiums, they have no justification. You cannot do it ahead of time, you kno w full well. The producers are not going to face a large premium incr ease in the coming year or two years because of the 25-year moving average that is used for wheat.

I do not think it is a fair comparison at all to slam the corporation for financial mi smanagement in this particu lar circumstance. They respond ing to the risk that they are there to protect the farmers from, and the farmers in a responsible way will pay the premiums of the future as they may rise down the road some two and three and four years. Mr. Uruaki: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister no w is att empting to twist and turn. I did no t slam the corporation. I told the Min ister that I agreed with the way the corporation was operating.

I have no comment on the in teg rity of the financial position of the corporation and the way it is being managed at all. What I am trying to say to the Min ister-and he wants to put the best light he can because he kn ows that the statements made by his own colleagues are no w haunting him. He kno ws that the statements made by the Min ister of Labour (Mr. Con nery) who now is in charge of Workers Compensation were ina ccurate, totally misleading. In fact, no w he wants to turn the debate to say somehow we are against farmers. We do not believe that crop insu rance should be operated in the way it is.

We do not disagree, I do not disagree at all. The claims are there. 1 do not think the claims function, qu ite frank ly, in crop insurance is that much different in the way the estim ates are being hand led. In fact, I think the corporation in the way its premium structure is handled over the 25 -year period probably has greater predictability than its counterpa rts. lt probably has greater predicta bility in terms of the stability of the premiums I am talking about than, say, MP IC. I was not even referring to MP IC, I was really referring to Workers Compensation.

M PlC is an example that I could make the argument, but I will not, in another vein. Clearly, Workers Compensation is a corporation which is fun ded directly by employers or farmers and the federal Govern ment, and it is a claims function in terms of its manda te to handle claims of workers. Can the Minis ter tell me that somehow the corporation can predict how many inju ries there will be in a particular workplace any more than we can predict what the weather will be next week? I think that argument that he put on the table does not wash any more on that one as it does in this one.

Let him not try to leave the impression on the record that somehow we are against farmers and we are not in favour of helping farmers. That is not at all what the debate is about, Mr. Chairman. Let the Min ister no t try to mislead us in this House and lead us down some garden path. The fact of the matter is the hypocrisy of the Conservative position vis-a-vis Workers Compensation Board and the contingent liabili ty there was a disaster. If that was a disaster, in their terms when they are in Oppo sition, why is this not equally so in terms of Crop Insu rance? Mr.

Findlay: We are here to talk about Crop Insu rance and the abil ity of Crop In surance to protect the producers from risks now and in the foreseeable future. The previous Min ister- I am still going to call you that I guess-wants to get in to that debate. He and I can carry that out on some other day, but I do not think it is fair to reflect on the corporation when they are sitting here, that they are mismana ging in any cont ext. As I said previously, year after year, they offer risk protection for producers for a premium.

That is what they did this year and they are responding responsibly in terms of payi ng out to producers for the loss of crop they incu rred according to the contract that they signed prior to April 30. I think that is a totally responsible position for the corporation. lt is a loss that was going to occur in 19 88. The premium incr ease in 19 89 will not be substantial, if any at all, between what it was in 19 88. If you are looking at Workers Compensa tion, they are paying out liabiliti es they know no w about for the next 20 years.

The corporation may not have any liabili ty again with these producers for the next 2, 5, 10 years. There is no liabili ty beyond 19 88 so I do not think they are in a fiscally irresponsible position at this time, because two or three years down the road the reserves could be back up to a substantial level. I can predict pretty reasonably and I feel with some degree of confidence that we will have a higher level of participation next year because of the unc ertai nty of crop production in '89 and '90. The higher partici pation will bring in a larger premium take each year, the next year and the year after.

The premiums paid this year are about $40 million. If we get $50 milli on in next year, we will go from a deficit of roughly 17 million to a surplus of some 33 million, all within one year. I do not consider that to be in any way a fiscally irresponsible position at all. Mr. Uruaki: Mr. Chairman, I have not argued that the corporation -and see the Min ister's only defence is to try and place my argument in the context that somehow I am accusing the corporation of fiscal mismanagement. I am not.

I am accusing this Min ister as part of a Government of political manipula tion and hypocrisy in terms of how they account publicly for precisely the fina ncial position of various corporations. That is what I am accusing him of, not the corporation. The corporation is hand led very well, Mr. Chairman. lt is only this Min ister, as part of a Govern ment no w who accused Workers Compensation of being totally financially mismana ged, and he just laid it on the table. He said that Workers Compensation is showing a deficit position for claims into the future.

He made the case that more workers or more employers and their workers should be covered through Workers Compensation to spread the risk in the same mann er as we wo uld like to have more farmers partici pate in Crop Insur ance, to spread the risk, bring in more premiums and spread the risk. He has agreed with that position. The point that I am making in Workers Compensation is they are not cash short. They are not cash short in 1837

Monday, October 3, 1988 terms of their current position. If all the claims had to be paid today that have to be paid 20 years down the road, the corporation would be $10 0 million in the hole. If that was a mismanagement on behalf of a Government of a corporation, the Min ister cannot sit here and say somehow we have allowed this corporation to go $16 milli on in the red on behalf of farmers and that is responsible, because it

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-49b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 49b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a72aca3ce381ac75a1a884ff7578652d3046001e

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).