VOL . 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3i00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 21, 1981 NO . 43

May 21, 1981 Tape No.l676 EL - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, hon. members may remember that on two separate occasions on May 5th., once while being interviewed by CBC Television and again while addressing a Liberal fund raising dinner, the Prime Minister made certain remarks which have been interpreted in some quarters as indic- ating a willingness to negotiate with the Province and to im- prove upon the previous federal offer which is patently unacc- eptable to this Province. Hon. members may also remember my remarks here in the House on May 13th. in which I responded positively to the Prime Minister's remarks.

At that time I said; "if the federal government has a new position, fine, let them put it on the table. We have been waiting for it since last June. We have put our positions on the table and we have been waiting for a position from the federal government since last June and we are - I am prepared to sit down at any time to do it. But let us not forget what is at stake here, Mr. Speaker, and we have got to be very careful how we approach this matter." I am aware that the substance of my remarks are known to the Prime Minister's office.

Contrary to my expectations, I have not had any reply to my positive. response; a silence made all the more puzzling in that I am also aware that certain other federal initiatives,now underway, contradict any positive im- plication which could be drawn from the Prime Minister's remarks here in Newfoundland. .....

May 21, 1981 Tape NO. 1676 EL - 2 PREMIEa PECKFORD: Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, even though I am aware of these other moves and statements that are being made, nevertbeless i: feel that it is proper to pursue any realistic possibility of attaining a negotiated settlement wbich is just and equitable and treats this Province as an equal with other provinces. Our insistance on equality is not only fair but self-evident from the Province's legal claim to the ownership of these, our offshore ndneral resources.

As I have already stated, any flexibility implicit in the Prime Minister's remarks seems con­ tradict .ed by other initiatives now being undertaken by the fed­ eral government. However, I continue to hope that the Prime Minister will respond positively to a letter which I table her~with. And I have sent by 'l'elex and in the mail the following letter to the Prime Minister: 11 My Dear Prime Minister, I aiil writing to seek clarification of your recent remarks to the media and to a Liberal fund-raising dinner here in St .. .

John' s concerning you:r: position on the re­ sumption of political negotiations respecting the ownership of the m.i.neral resources adjacent to this Province. ••Your remarks have created the impression in the Province that you have changed 4651

May 21, 1981 Taoe No. 1677 DW - l PREHIER PECKFORD: uyour previous position with regard to Newfoundland's right of ownership of offshore minerals. Your comments have been interpreted to mean that a new federal proposal now exists with respect to the fundamental issues of revenue sharing and resource management. As you know,our position is that the resource should be treated as if it were located on land in respect to revenue sharing and resource management. I have responded publicly to your comments and express~d my willingness to commence negotiations towards a political settlement of the offshore·guestion.

However, to this time no response has been forthcoming. The purpose of this letter, therefore, is to formalize a response to the offer which it is understood' you have made. In light of your expressed 1.,rillingness to enter into negotiations, I would assume that your position with respect to the SIU case now before the Federal court will be altered to involve only the labour relations issue. I sincerely hope that you can confirm that your recent remarks here in St. John's reflect the true position of your government,and that you have a new position which can be the subject of negotiations between us.

I would like to propose that a meeting be held between us at the earliest opportunity to establish the framework within which these negotiations can be undertaken. I look forward to a positive and early reply~ 1 I table the following, Mr. Speaker, and hope that this positive response - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: - by myself and the government is an indication that we are prepared to sit down, to discuss this matter and to try to reach some reasonable way in which we can continue to develop the offshore and yet provide the people of this Province with a legitimate and rightful share both of the management and the revenue that will accrue 4652 t ~-

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1677 0~1 - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: to this Province and to the country from these very massive developments. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear! MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The hon . member for Windsor - Buchans has approxim ately two minutes . MR. G. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know I speak for t he Oppositio n when I say to the Premier that we \o7el come t he announcement t oday that he is attempting to o~en negotiations with the Prime Minister. Let it be understood, Mr.

Speaker , that anything said by this Opposition over the se past two or three weeks since the meeting, since the Prime Minister came to Newfoundland and made the statements he made , was said in the context of asking the Premier to take advantage of the fact that Mr. Trudeau came . He appeared to hold out an olive leaf, he appeared to try to break the stalemate that has existed 4653

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1678 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: th1s past couple of years,he appeared to try to find a way out of the confrontation, - the fed bashing and the confrontation attitude that existed between this Province and Ottawa, this government and the federal government. And Mr. Speaker, we saw, and we built our case on the fact,that the Premier should now take the initiative, the ball was in his court, the Premier should take the initiative to take the Prime Minister's message and use the comments he made as a basis to re.-open necroti~tions. That is all we ask, Mr. Speaker. We put no

interpretation on what results of the negotiations will be. I believe that the people of Newfoundland will accept - the details they will let the Premier worry about -but by and large they will accept the position laid out by Mr. Trudeau on his visit to Newfoundland.

And on behalf of this Opposition I would say to the Premier that when and if the meeting happens, as I am sure it will, because I believe that the Prime Minister is acting in good faith, he has got the best wishes of this caucus to resolve, to sit down with the P~ime Minister and resolve the offshore issue so that we can get on to the development, which is important in this Province, and which we will never get onto if the atmosphere that has existed this last two years continues to exist. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Further statements?

ORAL QUESTIONS : The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and it has to do with the chaotic situation in the lobster industry as far as the price of lobster is concerned. It seems to vary from one community to the other, from one region of the Province to the other . Some 4654

May 21, 1981 Tape No . 1678 NM - 2 MR . NEARY: buyers - I know one on the Southwest Coast who is refusing to pay $2.05 a pound for lobstex. The fisher men are prepared to sell for less than that . I am not advocating that they shou l d do tha·t but ther e s eems to be a glut on the mark e t. The whole situation is in chaos and unless some ­ thing is done immediately - the minister has bui l t up the f i shermen's hopes and expectations by threatening to cancel licences of buyers unless they pay a certain price for lobsters i n this Province . They say they cannot do it. Wha t is happening at the moment?

Is there anything being done to try to - MR . MORGAN: Are you asking a question or making a speech? MR . NEARY: information, Mr. Speaker . SOME RON . MEMBE~S : MR. SPEAKER(Simm s ) : MR. NEARY : No . I have to give some background The whole s ituat i on is so confusing. Oh, oh ! Order, please! The fishermen are completely bewildered. Would the hon . gentleman tell the Rouse if the government is examining this matter at the moment, if the government will look into the possibility of subsidizing the buyers who have to. pay the price that the minister set on lobsters or have their licence s cancelled?

Will they subsidize the buyers who 4655

May 21,1981 Tape No. 1679 AH-1 MR. NEARY: apparently are selling their lobsters in the Boston market at a loss at the present time? MR.S·PEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, as usual the hon. gentleman has the facts all wrong like he did a few days ago regarding a helicopter in Bonavista. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the fact is this government did not set the lobster prices this year.

The lobster prices were set by means of negotiations that took place between the Fishermen's Union of this Province and at least two major buyers from Nova Scotia that buy a substantial number of lobsters , a quanity of lobsters in this Province. And the Fishermen's Union were ~uccessful in the early part of the season in negotiating a price with Clearwater Fisheries of Nova Scotia 1 a major buyer,of $2.05 per pound. Recently that company decided 1 based on its own information from the marketplace, not to honour that agreement with the Fishermen's Union.

And our, of course, condition attached to the buyer's licenses that we have issued this year is that the buyers would pay and should pay and must pay the union negotiated price. And because the company and the union are now in dispute over whether or not there is a union negotiated price , some of the buyers around the Province seemed to take advantage of the situation and dropped their prices below the $2.05 per pound while others are paying as high as $2.20 per pound. So, Mr. Speaker, again to clarify it, government did not set the prices for lobsters.

We are doing everything we possibly can by using the Fishing Industry Advisory Board and by working in co-ordination and co-operation with the Fishermen's Union and,in fact,lobster prices this year are a record high for fishermen. 4656 ..... ,,

May 21,1981 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1679 · AH-2 A supplementary. A supplementary. The hon. Mr. Speaker, that is a. rather vague and evasive answer given by the minister,just stating a few facts about how the situation developed. We are all aware that is was the result of negotiations between the two major buyers and the Fishermen's Union,But the minister left the impression earlier in this House that it was the government that negotiated the price and they tried to take a bit of credit for it, t'he minister tried to take a bit of credit for it.

But now the situation is in a chaotic condition and would the han. gentleman tell the House what steps the government are going to take to deal with this matter irnmediately?Because the two major buyers that he is talking about, Mr. Speaker, I know are only in certain areas of the Province. There are other buyers in other parts of Newfoundland who are prepared to pay $1.90 or $1.95 per pound but they aJ:T.e afraid to do it, afraid the minister would cancel their shellfish license.

Now would the minister indicate what steps are going to be taken to solve this problem immediately because pretty soon it will be too late, the· lobster season will be over? 4657 ,,

May 21, 19.81 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MORGAN: Tape 1680 EC - 1 The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, the fishermen around the Province are quite aware of the steps we are taking, and we are taking every possible step in conjunction with the Fishermen's Union. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary, the hon. the Well, would the hon. geu.:.leman tell the House what it is because I have a situation in my own district - and I believe it is happening in other parts of the Province -where $1.90 is being paid to fishermen, I know, by one of the major buyers in Newfoundland, and I know in another part of the Southwest Coast another buyer has stopped buying lobster - as of today he is not buying any lobster because he took a loss on the last shipment that he sent to Boston. He bought them for $2.05, sold them for $2.05 and had to pay to collect the lobsters and pay to have them shipped.

Well, would the minister tell the House so that we can tell the people? I mean, this is not secret or confidential. We are trying to get information for the lobster fishermen of this Province and a statement should be made in this House and not the subject of just private negotiations between the minister's department and some other party. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is obviously not understanding what is happening. We do not set prices for fish, they are set by negotiations for any seafood products.

They are set by negotiations between the Fishermen's Union and the companies concerned. We do not set prices. In this case, these prices were set by the union and the company by means of a negotiated agreement and our conditions in the buyer's licences are - one major 4658 .....

~ay 21, 1981 Tape 1680 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: condition is that the buyers will have to pay the union negotiated orice and that price was negotiated at $2.05. Right now the Fishermen's Union and at least one major buyer are in dispute over that agreement. Whether or not the union takes legal action, I do not know; it is a possibility, I understand. But it is an agreement between the buyers and the Fishermen's Union. And our position is that we want to ensure that the fishermen around the Province get the best possible price they can for lobsters.

And the action we took this Spring in working with the Fishermen's Union was the action that we thought would be a means of stabilizing lobster prices. But again as a recent report from the Fishing Industry Advisory Board, tabled in this House said, naturally the prices to fishermen haveto be reflected by means of the prices in the market?lace, and the market­ place in this case is Boston. Boston is the major buyer of the lobsters in this Province.

And anybody who wants the information, it is available to the House, it is available from the Advisory Board to all members of the House that the market in Bosto~ in the last,appraximately seven days - seven days ago - the prices dropped, mainly because of a major influx of lobsters from Nova Scotia, a heavy supply of lobsters from Nova Scotia so that it blocked the market 4659

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1681 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: and prices for the lobsters in this Province did drop,but that happened last year around the same time. We are confident,according to the information from the Advisory Board, that the prices for lobster will increase again in the Boston market and my overall objective with the Fishing Industry Advisory Board working in that regard is to ensure that if the prices do increase in Boston, that the price will be reflected in the prices paid to fishermen. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. NEARY: The hon. member for Port au Port. I yield, Mr.

Speaker. He. yields for the han. member for Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is shifting his ground completely now to what he did there a few weeks ago when this matter was first raised in this House. The han. gentleman guaranteed the lobster fishermen $2.05 a pound for their lobsters.And I do not kno<,r how- MR. HODDER: Ministerial statement. MR. NEARY: he may have carne in with a Ministerial Statement, I do not know how the hon. gentleman could have done t~at but now the han. gentleman - SOME HON. r-1EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: - tells us that the matter carne about as a result of negotiations between two lobster buyers and the Fishermen's Union. But, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman - AN HON. MEMBER: One major lobster buyer. MR. NEARY: - one major lobster buyer. The han. gentleman knows that there are no negotiations witn the other buyers,and there are a number of buyers in this Province and they are prepared to buy the lobster but they are not prepared to pay $2.05. Now is the minister prepared to subsidize these other buyers? They will pay the $2.05 but they are not going to pay it at a loss.

Will the han. gentleman tell the House whether the Fishery Advisory Board has recommended 4660 ,-.. 1

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1681 so - 2 MR. NEARY: that the government subsidize the buyers so that they can pay $2.05 and continue to buy lobsters because as of today some of the buyers have stopped buying lobsters? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, again I guess you have to put it in bai-Ju t.alk for the hon. gentleman to understand. AN HCN. MEMBER: Baby talk. MR. MORGAN: It has to be baby talk for h:im to understand.

The fact is that last week the Fishermen's Union announced that they had reached an agreement with Clearwater that the price of $2.05 would be the average price throughout the season. So that is now a standing negotiated price between the Fishermen's Union and a major buyer. And the condition on our buyers' licences ., as I mentioned earlier, is that all buyers should pay the union negotiated price and right now the union negotiated price is, as announced by the union last week, $2.05, the average price throughout the season.

And we are convinced that although the prices are down to $1.90 in some areas of the Province, some buyers are paying $1.90 because the market is still down in Boston. The market improved a bit the last few days and indications are it will improve further the next few days; then there is no reason why all buyers throughout the Province will not be again paying $2.05 and above. And, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is obviously unaware of what is happening in his'own riding because over in his own district - MR. NEARY: Oh, yes I am. MR.

MORGAN: - the buyers were paying $2. 35 a pound during a certain part of the season and now they are paying $1.90 1but th.e average price for the season will be far above $2.05 a pound. 4661

May 21, 1981 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (_Simms) : MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: .... Tape No. 1681 SD - 3 Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Port au Port - I yield, Mr. Speaker. - yields again • 4662

'May 21, 1981 MR. NEARY; MR. SPEAKER lSimms): MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: Tape No.l682 EL- l I just want to clear this up again. The hon. the member for LaPoile. The major buyer - Oh, oh! He is leading us on again today . The major buyer in my own dis- trict, by the way, has been paying $2.05 a pound, is prepared to pay $1.90 a pound,but is afraid to do it, afraid the minister will cancel his licence and as of today that major buyer 1 who buys lobster right from Cape Ray to Burgeo 1 has stopped buying lobster. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

If fhe hon. gentleman has a supp­ lementary question, he should put it. MR. NEARY: So would the hon. gentleman in- dicate how the lobster fishermen are going to dispose .of their lobsters if the buyer stops buying because they do not want to take a loss by paying $2.05 a pound to the fishermen? How can they continue to buy the lobster from the fishermen? Will the minister undertake to subsidize these buyers? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fish- eries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, if there is any buyer over on the Western part of the Province who is not will- ing to buy lobster at $1.90,I would say that there are a number of other buyers who are right now and the Fishermen's Union should be notified. The hon. gentleman should, in all sincerity, if he is sincere about the problem that the fishermen are having with lobster prices, and if he is since~about it, if he is, all he had to do this morning was talk to the Fishermen's Union and report to them that the fact is there are fishermen in the South 4663

May 21, 1981 Tape NO. 1682 EL - 2 MR. MORGAN: Western part of the Province. in his riding and there is no buyer for their lobsters. Now, that is a very simple thing to do and the Fishermen's Union could arr­ ange for maybe Clearwater, in this case who they have an agree­ ment with, to move into the area and buy their lobsters from them on the condition that if you pay $1.90 now, when the market improves that they will pay a further increase in the price to the fishermen later on. That is the whole thing MR. NEARY: Everyone buying is P.=~pared to do that (.inaudible). MR.

MORGAN: Look, if the hon. gentleman wants to twist around the facts like he normally tries to do, unsuccess­ fully, in the eyes of the fishermen in particular, if he is sin­ cere about the problems of the fishermen having this year a lobster price of $1.90, which is a record price anyway for this Province- not saying it is enough, but right now the market price in Boston is down, as I mentioned earlier. And the fact is that all indications are that the price will increase.

When the price increases, the fishermen will get an increase in price here and the agreement with the Fishermen's Union is that the fishermen will receive a price of $2.05 average throughout the lobster fishing season this year, a stabilized price, in other words. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. MORGAN: That is simple baby talk. 4664 . ....

May 21, 1981 Ta!Je No. 1683 ow - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I just want to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), I mean, in his Ministerial Statement which he put before the House - and I have spoken to the Fishermen's Union - in his r1inisterial Statement he said $2.05 which was negotiated by the Fishermen's Union and made the conditions of those shellfish licences conditional. The condition was condi­ tional on the ~rice negotiated by the Fisherm~n''l Union. Now he is telling us that it is now $1.90 1 that it is averaged over the season.

Now that . is not what he said earlier this year in this House of Assembly. Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is how can he determine what will be the average price since National Sea Products,which was one of the major offshore buyers in this Province,has been paying $1.90 pound for two and a half weeks. Is the minister going to tell this House at this particular time that National Sea or any other buyer that has been paying $1.90 a pound will have to pay $2.25 and they will lose their license if they do not pay $2.25 when the market comes up;or what kind of a system are we running here? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman tried to play politics with lobster prices a few weeks ago and failed and failed badly in his riding in the Port au Port area 1 according to calls from fishermen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, our condition on a buyers' license is that all buyers - because the Fisher­ men's Union, because fishermen are not really organized with regard to dealing with the buyers, all the buyers, · and we have many buyers who are in so many cases agents of other companies outside of Newfoundland, outside of 4665

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1683 DW - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: the Province that our condition that we set is the wish of the Fishermen's Union on behalf of the fishermen, on behalf of the membership arounn the Province,that we establish a condition, and that condition is clearly spelled out on thebuyer's license. "Mr. Buyer, you muc;t pay the union n~gotiated or ice when you buy lobsters from fishermen.'' Now that union negotiated price as announced last week by the Fishermen's Union,is a $2.05 average throughout the fishing season. In my Ministerial Statement there was no mention of the details of how the price would work.

The Ministerial Statement clearly spelled out that we ~orould establish in our buyer's license a condition, and that condition would be that all the buyers throughout the Province would pay the union negotiated price 1 and the union negotiated - MR. J. HODDER: No, no, no! You know better. MR. J. MORGAN: . Mr. S]:leaker, the buvers' licenses, the buyers know 1-1hat is on the condition, and they are obviously more intelligent and understand better than the members of the Opposition. It is spelled out for them.

It reads out, in fact it reads - I can remember the actual wording of it-that you must pay to fishermen the union negotiated price. Now the buyers know they have to pay that. The Fishermen's Union announced last week through the media and throuqh the Fishermen's Broadcast in particular that that union negotiated price is $2.05, an average price to all fishermen throuqhout the fishing season. The average will be $2.05. 4666

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1684 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: It was $3.35 - MR. HODDER: Your statement said mir.imum. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I do not care what - I am talking about what the Fishermen's Union has negotiated and they have announced that. ~1R. WARREN : Your statement is no good. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, and I have to say it over and over and over again, we do not set lobster prices and we do not set fish prices but I will tell you, we are going ~o worK with the Fishermen's Union to make sure that the fishermen get a good deal, a good deal and a fair price for lobsters. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Hear, hear! A supplementary, the hon. member A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the minister, when one of the largest buyers in the Province decided to drop their price to $1.90 a pound, did they have any idea of the - did they come to the minister, did they go to the Fishermen's Union or did they do it arbitrarily? And I will ask the minister again, will the minister ensure that they do average out over the season~ How is he going to ensure that?

And I would ask the minister something else, does he not think that this little system, this little house of cards that he has built up where he will negotiate a price and hope eve -rybody will come in with no regard to the market conditions, does he not think that perhaps we should have a better system here in the Province? '1R. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: two weeks ago Terrible! The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman made a statement publicly saying that the Fishermen's Union and the Newfoundland Government were powerless 4667

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1684 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: in dealing with the buyers and that of course gave all kind of ammunition to those companies outside of Newfoundland in buying lobsters from Newfoundland fishermen, taking advantage of the situation - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh~ SOME HON. MEMBERS : Shame~ Shame~ MR. MORGAN: - led to believe that the Newfoundland Government had no power to deal with them. They could walk over the fishermen, just walk over them and deal as they wish with them. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh~ MR. MORGAN: Cut their prices down.

That was the impression left by the Opposition statement last week and again today, again today. The fact is that we are not going to allow any buyer in the Province to take advantage of fishermen because they do not hav~ ' all of them have union negotiated deals between the fishermen and the buyers, not all of them.

We are not going to allow the buyers to take advantage of the situation and we are going to ensure, and I will say again, we are going to ensure that the fishermen get a good price reflected from the price in the marketplace and reflected on the deal made between the Fishermen's Union and a major buyer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Hear, hear~ A supplementary, the hon. member for Mr. Speaker, I just want to ask the minister, you know in light of the statements that he made about - I did not realize I had so much power, Mr. Speaker, that my statements caused the market to crumble.

But, Mr. Speaker, in light of the minister's latest last statement, what happens, how does the minister deal with a situation whereby the Boston market,say,goes down to $1 a pound for unforeseen reasons? Is the minister -you know,I am attacking the system here, I am say ing we should have a better systerr- is the minister then going to 4868 ,,

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1684 NM - 3 MR. HODDER : be able to maintain $1.90 a pound, $2.00 a pou nd, or $2.05 a pound, or whatever they - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh ~ MR. HODDER: I mean, he has said, he has told the fishermen of this Province in no uncertain terms in a Ministerial statement they are going to get $2. os a pound . How can he control tbe Boston market? That is what I would like to know . MR. WARREN: He does not know hi mself. 4669

May 21, 1981 Tape 1685 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Hinister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish I could control the Boston market. I wish I could.I would ensure that the fishermen would get a good price for the lobsters. MR. NEARY: Subsidized by (Inaudible). MR. MORGAN: In fact,a few days ago lobsters were selling, I think, it was in Alberta, lobsters were selling at $7.90 per pound. MR. NEARY: Send them off there. MR. MORGAN: And, you know, it leads me to believe that maybe fishermen should be getting more than what they are getting in Newfoundland.

But the fact is that most of our lobsters are going into Boston. And one thing we will be doing, I have already talked to at least two major Newfoundland buyers, a Newfoundland company, one of them up, in fact, in Notre Dame Bay, a well-known buyer, and I have no hesitation in using his name, the Eveleigh family up there in Comfort Cove ind I talked to him at our initiative, the Newfoundland Government, I talked to him along the lines of putting in place some kind of an experimental, at least next year pound for the holding of lobsters. MR. HODDER: Where is this? MR.

MORGAN: We have good cold water here and there is no reason why we could not hold the lobsters, hold them until shortly after the season is closed and then take these lobsters not into the Boston market - MR. HODDER: MR. MORGAN: being supplied by - MR. HODDER: Are you taking credit for that? - which is primarily Are you taking credit for that? 4670

May 21, 1981 Tape 1685 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, could I have some kind of order here? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, we are going to be working with a couple of major Newfoundland buyers and we are going to have the Fishermen's Union involved as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MORGAN: And maybe we are going to have to put forward some up-front money, Newfoundland taxpayers' money, but it would be a good investment,in my view, merely to carry the inventory of holding these lobsters rather than having these buyers placed in some jeopardy if something happens and the lobsters are - or something happens with regards to the lobsters after they are pounded. So I cannot see from the advice and information that I have received to date w~y it cannot work in Newfoundland.

We can hold the lobsters, pound them here, and then rather than go to the U.S. market,shortly after the season closes or around the end of the lobster season we would take them into the European market and we can almost guarantee better prices back to the fishermen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: I will yield to hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. SPEAKER: Yields to the hon. member for Burin-Placentia West J1R. HOLLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary to the Minister of Fis~eries. Mr.

Speaker, in response to the original question from my colleague for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), the minister stated that the prices were negotiated by the Fishermen's Union and with two major buyers. He named one,Clearwater. I would like 4671 .... , . . .

May 2l, USl Tape 1685 PK -3 MR. HOLLETT: for him to tell us who the other one was MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisher ·ies. The ot.her c;:ompany was, I do not know if we can call it a major buyer, but SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: - they are a ma j or buyer in Halifax, but they are not a major Newfoun .dland buyer; they have been buying here on the Great Northern Peninsula, they have been buying in the Port au Port area, they have been buying in St. Ge?rge's area. !>1R. HOLLETT: What is the name? MR.

MORGAN: The company is James Moog Limited from Nova Scotia, the ot.her was Clearwater. MR. NEARY: You would not sell very many lobsters if you had to depend on that . 4672

May 21,1981 Tape No. 1686 AH-1 MR. MORGAN: Last year Mr. Moog collected, I think, around 200,000 to 300,000 pounds of lobster,in that area,and looking at the other buyers in that general area he was a major buyer ir'l that area,but he is not a major buyer looking at theoverall perspective in Newfoundland because we have local buyers buying more than tha-t. MR. SPEAKER· (Simms): The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question to the Premier is with regards to Bill 25,

An Act To Provide For The Repeal Of The Churchill Falls Act,better known as the Water Reversion Act. Would the Premier indicate to us at this point in time if he has any indication as to who will be intervening it or who will be proposing, what groups or parties or vested interests will be opposing the proclamation of that act? Would the Premier indicate to us now whether or not he has that information? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I am not sure if I understand the hon. member's question, Who will be intervening at the court hearings? MR. FLIGHT: Opposing at court.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Well 1 the court date has not finally been set on it yet. The matter is before the courts and the court has to - the appeal court, that appeal court has to decide on a date when they will hear, and then when they do , I imagine at that point in time you will be able to ascertain what groups or organizations or governments or individuals will be taking what side on the act or what groups will be intervening against the act or opposing what it is that the legislation sets out, that the Government . of Newfoundland or the various companies involved under the act 4673 - ..

May 21,1981 Tape No. 1686 AH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: would want to do. So I suppose one could presume that there are a number of obvious organizations or crovernments that might oppose of intervene againstthe importand 3ubstance of the act and I think they are obvious to everybody. But until such time as the court has established a time in which they are going to hear argument concerning the constitutionality, the validity of the act,I do not imagine there would be any notice given to the court from these various organizations or groups who might want to intervene.

They would have to have some vehicle through which to int~rvene and that vehicle is not there,I do not suppose,until such time as the court has set down an actual time on which they are going to hear it. But undoubtedly it is clear to ever ybody the groups who would be so inclined. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. SpeakeF.. A supplementary. The hon. Mr.

Speaker, there has been one indication that CFLCo, a company that we own, a company that costs us hundreds of millions of dollars, a Cro~m corporation in most people's minds, has indicated its intension of opposing our case in court. They intend to intervene and oppose Newfoundland's case, oppose our right to proclaim the Water Reversion Act, and they are going to oppose our rights to the benefits that would ' come if that act was proclaimed. 4674 .-..

May 21, 1981 Tape 1687 EC - 1 MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Speaker, CFLCo has indicated publicly their intention to intervene, and I would like to hear the Premier comment on that, that a company like CFLCo, a Crown corporation, is going to oppose legislation passed in this House of Assembly. MR . NEARY: Owned by the Newfoundland Government. MR . FLIGHT: Owned by the Newfoundland Government. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: First, it is rather strange.

CFLCo is not a wholly-owned Crown corporation of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, and the reason why it is substantially controlled by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador now is because of an action that was taken a number of years ago, to which hon. members on the other side have objected - MR . FLIGHT: Yes, $200 million or $300 million later. PREMIER PECKFORD: - up until a couple of days ago.

So I find it rather strange to start with that the Opposition would suddenly start ~laiming ownership of CFLCo at a time when the Opposition themselves have been opposing that kind of move a number of years ago. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You are either for it or you are against it.

When it is convenient, the Opposition uses CFLCo as being owned by the Government of Newfoundland; when it is inconvenient and perhaps more politically convenient for them to say otherwise, they oppose the takeover whereby we got back our water and got back some of the things that belong to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. so I cannot let the moment pass, Mr. Speaker, without commenting upon the various circumstances under which the Opposition finds it convenient to say one thing and at another time 4675

May 21, 1981 PREMIER PECKFORD: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms): PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape 1687 say something else. Oh, oh! Order, please! It shows once again the EC - 2 inconsistency of the Opposition in the way they approach public policy issues dealing with CFLCo, dealing with Northern cod, dealing with offshore, dealing with trans­ mission of hydro power through Quebec. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: So, I must say, it comes as a great surprise to me that the energy critic for the Opposition (Mr.

Flight) would suddenly want to espouse a cause to which his own colleagues have been opposed for so long. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, anybodv listening- the House of Assembly, the press or anybody- Hould recognize that the Premier did not answer the question.

I asked the Premier if, number one, he had been notified, if he was aware that CFLCo was indeed going to intervene and intended to oppose in courts our right to proclaim that legislation and how he squares that with everything he just said, that we own thatcorporation, how he squares the fact that a company owned by the Newfoundland Government, that cost hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers' money in order to own it, is now going to oppose in court - in court, Mr.

Speaker, we are going to oppose it ourselves; CFLCo is going to oppose in court legislation that would give us the rights to the bene£its, or so he says, to the benefits of having the legislation proclaimed? How is it that he is going to permit CFLCo a company that we own, to intervene and oppose 4676 ..

May 21, 1981 Tape 1687 EC - 3 MR. FLIGHT: in court our right to proclaim that legislation and our right to the benefits that would flow from that legislation if it were proclaimed? 4677

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1688 EL - l MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I apologize and I am extremely sorry that I might not have answered the question to the hon. member's benefit but I just got agitated. I got com­ pletely carried away. I just got completely carried away and very seldom, Mr. Speaker,do I- S0~1E HON. ~EMBE"R.S : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: I get carried away. SO.M:E HON. ~EMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD: - and very seldom, Mr. Speaker, do I hardly ever get carried away. Oh, oh!

And what really gets me carried away is when somebody tends to be illogical, tends to be inconsistent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Clh, oh! I lose my rationality. Order, please! I lose my whole reason for being and I then start to question the whole - ~'R. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: beginning. MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Speaker MR. FLIGHT: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: expired. PREMIER PECKFORD: He did not answer the nuestion. Order, please! - motivation 1 esuecially in the Order, please! • so, these are the reasons, Mr .

He did not know - He does not know the answers. Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has Oh, I am very sorry, Mr. Speaker. Tomorrow we will try to respond. 4678

May 21, 1981 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tape NO. 1688 Oh, oh! Sit down. EL - 2 But this is just terrible, Mr. Order, please! Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St.John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, as Chairman of the Social Services Committee on the Estimates, I would like to re­ port that the Committee has passed head XII, Environment; head XIII, Education; head XIV, Social Services; head XV, Health; head XVIII, Culture Recreation and Youth; and head XIX, Justice, without amendment. I would like to report that a total of thirty hours were spent on consideration qf these estimates and that they were passed without amendment and I would ask that that report be put on the Order Paper. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that this House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the rais­ ing of loans by the Province. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.Speaker, I would like to give an answer to a question of which I received notice the other day about the water bomber allocations throughout the Province. We do have six water bombers. There will be one in St.

Johns, one in Deer Lake, one in Goose Bay, two in Gander and the sixth water- · 4679

May 21,1981 Tape No. 1688 EL - 3 MR. POWER: bomber will be positioned through - out the Province depending on the fire hazard at the beginning of each week. One in Labrador,and one positioned depending on the fire hazards. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Further answers. The hon. the Minister o£ Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I hav~ answers to t :·.;:ee questions. The first one, a question raised by the mem­ ber for St . Barbe~T.Bennett) relating to a grant of $67,030 to the Newfoundland and Labrador 4680

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1689 SD - 1 MR. GOUDIE: Rural Development Council to conduct a study entitled: 'World Development in the '80s'. On October 9th, 1979, the council received a cheque and deposi~ed it in a working account. The first withdrawl was made November 14th, 1979. I think the hon. member suggested it was in there for two year accruing interest or something to that effect. The grant was used mainly to pay salaries of a consultant, two researchers and legal advice. A small balance remains in the account and there are still some outstanding bills.

A report of the completed study will be in the hands of the department no later than June 17th. So that is the answer to one question, Mr. Speaker. A question raised by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) last week, I believe, to ·1;1ich I gave an incomplete answer. I have some additional information which I would like to pass on relating to deletions from what is referred to as the land freeze for agricultural purposes. On October 31, 1973, the freeze was established under the Land Development Act.

June 23, 1978,a zone established under the Development Area Lands Act, several amendments to the zone were made at this time. As a result of the department's planning studies, 51,000 acres were involved in the zone. December 7, 1979, an amendment to the Seal Cove- Foxtrap area agriculture zone, based on the department's planning studies,totally deleted 177 hectares or 464 acres. May, 1980, an amendment to the St. Philip's- Torbay-Shoe Cove area based on the department's planning studies,total ~eleted thirty-five hectares or eighty-seven acres. June, 1980, an amendment to the St.

Philip's-Torbay- Shoe Cove area total deleted "'as 1. 5 acres. So from June 1978 to June 1981 the total areas deleted, 552.5 acres. 4681 . -· '•

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1689 so - 2 MR . GOUDIE: And I might add, Mr. Spea .ker, that t.hese were done in conjunction with various municipal governments involved as well . MR. NEARY: MR. GOUDIE: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : (Inaudible). I just outlined them. Order, please! Further answers to questions? MR . GOUDIE: The other answer, Mr. Speaker , I cannot remember the date of the Order Paper now but the hen. member fo r LaPoile (Mr. Neary) Faised the question about a list of loans and grants and so on that were made under my department.

I ~._rill not read t .hem all out obviously, but there is a list of - the number and amount approved , jobs created and jobs maintained by industry classification , the RDA loans programme. SOME HON • ~!EMBERS : Oh, oh . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. GOUDIE : The in£ormation was asked for, Mr . Speaker, and I am providing it.

There were a number of approvals and amounts approved by the provincial electorial district federal/provincii'll Craft Marketing Programme and . the federal/provincial Industrial Incentives ProgrQJlUile and another figure here as well , the projected losses - the RDA programme 1972 to date. So there is the information, Mr. Speaker. 468 2

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1690 ow - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Any further Answers to Questions? 000 MR. s. NEARY : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. s. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I raise the point of order merely to jog Your Honour 's memory and to remind Your Honour that Your Honour \vas going to give a ruling, after consulting with Hansard, reading Hansard in con­ nection with an •m:?arliarnentary remark that was made a few days ago b the me.mber for Placentia (Mr. Patterson). I do not know if Your Honour has had time to take a look at Bansard.

The hon. qentleman ca~led a member on this side of the House a liar. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, it is not a point of order. But I can tell the hon. member, first of all, that I was not in the Chair at the time. I believe the neouty Speaker (~~. Butt) was in the Chair at the tme, and I am sure he will give a ruling when he is ready to give a ruling. ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the hon.

Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adiot An Amending Agreement Entered Into Between Gover­ ment And Lower Churchill Development Corporation Limited" . (Bill No. 69) On motion, Bill No. 69 read a first time,otdered read a second time on tomorrow. 4683

May 21, 1981 Tape No . 1690 ow - 2 Motion, the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland And Labrador Hydro Act, 1975". (Bill No. 74) On motion, Bill No. 74 read a first time 1 ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Labrador Lands {Reservation) Act" . {Bill No. 63) On motion, Bill No. 63 read a first time 1 ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Ne1-1foundland And Labrador Housing Corporation Act For The Purpose Of Integrating The Newfoundland And Labrador Housing Corporation And The St. John's Housing Corporation". (Bill No. 19) ~~. SPEAKER {Simms) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. w. ~.ARSHALL: Mr.' Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor), who is responsible for housing,! rise to introduce this bill. This bill, Mr. SJ;>eal<er, carries through the intention as enunciated 46 84 ......

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1691 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: by the government some time ago to combine the St. John's Housing Corporation and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. The most important parts of the bill which give effect to this can be found in clause 4 where

section ~3 of the act is repealed, and I might say that that

section 43 is repealed because as it reads in the present act of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation it provides that any actions of that corporation shall not be in conflict with the actions of the St. John's Housing Corporation. The rest of sections 43, 44, and 45, what they do, as I say the operative part of the act, Mr. Speaker, transfers the assets of the St. John's Housing Corporation to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

Other parts of the bill make provisions with respect to the membership on the board of directors of the corporation, making them not less than five or more than ten; there is a slight increase, I think, of three members, in order to accommodate the additional work that will be involved. Generally speaking, Mr. Speaker, this is a bill then which will carry into effect the announced intentions of government to amalgamate these two corporations.It is provided at the end of it that it will come into effect when proclaimed, so this is the next advanced step towards realizing this particular attention.

Now I will not keep the House for any length of time in introducing it, Mr. Speaker. I would rather just sit down now; when I close the debate I will respond and be quite ready to respond to any questions that may arise. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we see no reason, as a matter of fact we are all for merging the various housing corporations in 4685

May 21, l9Bl Tape No. 1691 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: this Province, putting them all under one umbrell~ - if that indeed is what the act does; it is very vague on that particular point. But we think this would be a good move if it will eliminate the bureaucratic empire that has been established in the Corner Brook Housing Corporation, the St. John's Housing Corporation, and the St. John's Housing Corporation Lands Act, and put them all under the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, that it would indeed be a good move. But, Mr.

Speaker, there is one aspect of this act that I am not quite· clear on and I was hoping that the minister would clarify it when he introduced the bill and that has to do with the 999 year leases. As hon. members know 1 there are a number of properties around the city of St. John's­ as a matter of fact I lived on one for six and a half years myself where the St. John's Housing Corporation leases the land for $1 a year to the person who owns the house that is built on that land.

Now under this new bill, and the explanatory note, Sir, is very vague on this, does that mean that the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation will now have the right to increase the rent for this land or will it still be at the same rate of $1.00 a year? I think that point has to be made, Mr. Speaker. It would be very unfair indeed if the government brought in a bill to impose rent on land upon which houses were built a number of years ago, ten, twelve, fifteen years ago, and now start charging rent for that land.

I am almost certain that is not the intent of the bill but I would like for the minister to tell us whether or not there is any fear that the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, when they take over the St. John's Housing Corporation, will be able to charge these people rent. I was hoping also, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman who introduced the bill would give us some 4686 .~·

May 21, 1981 Tape No. l69l NM - 3 MR. NEARY: idea of what was planned in the way of housing development in this Province. It is a golden opportunity for the minister to make a statement of policy, to tell the House what kind of a housing programme we can expect in this Province, especially in the St . John's area, in the next year or so . We heard the other day about the housing boom in Gander. But we hear of other parts of Newfoundland, especially in the city of St. John's and in the larger centres,where there is a desperate need of accommodations, desperate; it is absolutely astounding, Mr . Speaker, the number of requests 4687

May 21, 1981 Tape 1692 EC - 1 MR. NEARY : that we get from constituents and indeed, I get them from all over the Province, of people who are looking for housing accommodations. Now, in the city of St. John's, as hon. members know, because of the land speculators and because of the NIP programme and because of the Heritage Foundation and so forth, a lot of the land speculators have gone into downtown St.

John's and they hav e gutted out the old houses downtown; the lawyers, 3ome of the lawyers - not all of them, but some of them - and some of the construction people, some of the people who provide building material, manage to get themselves elected to these Heritage Foundations, or whatever they call them, and they have gone downtown and they buy the land and then they tear the houses down, and in the process they have created a desperate housing shortage in the city of St. John's. At least people on social assistance and in the lower income bracket always manage to get a roof over their heads.

It may not have been the best accommodations in the world but it was t ~e best that they could find in the city at the time, but now 1 because they are gutting out these houses, ripping them down, tearing them down, there is a housing shortage and people on social assistance and in the lower income bracket no longer have recourse to these houses. And another thing that I might say, Mr. Sneaker, that seems to have developed into quite a racket is the Neighbourhood Improvement Programme. That has developed into quite a racket.

Hon . gentlemen know that that is a federal programme administered by the Province, I believe. Well, what has happened in that particular instance, Mr. Speaker, is that some of the slum landlords, some of the lawyers downtown, bought the old houses, got the federal funds, upgraded the houses and then decided to sell them, or sold the land and tore the houses down. 4688 .~

May 21, 1981 Taoe 1692 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, are there no strings attached to the funds that are paid out by the taxpayers of this Province to upgrade old houses in St. John's? Turn it into a bit of a racket, collect the rent, in some instances, abandon the house, sell the house for exorbitant profits and make a killing - they have turned it into a real racket. Are there no strings attached to this sort of funding? I1r. Speaker, I would like for the hon. gentleman to address hirnpelf to t~~ question.

It has developed into a racket, not so much in recent months, but in the earlier years of the Neighbourhood Improvement Programme and the federal grants, the Heritage Fund was turned into a real racket by building material people, people who -sell supplies for houses, and by some of the lawyers, who found a milch cow; they found another source of handouts from both the provincial and federal governments. And, Mr. Speaker, now they are down­ town, the land grabbers, the moneybags are downtown now buying all the land they can buy downtown. But they are in for a rude awakening, I might say, Mr.

Speaker, because the Royal Trust, a few days ago,made a policy decision that they would make no further loans for high rise office buildings or for big commercial establishments while the interest rates are as high as they are.

I believe it was the Royal Trust did that and then, I believe, Montreal Trust is following their example, and I would assume that that will set a trend and that all the trust companies and the banks will refrain, will not loan any more money for these big high rise office buildings and these commercial establishments that the money grabbers and the land speculators thought they were going to make 4689

May 21, 1981 Tape 1693 PK - l MR. NEARY: a killing of it, now they are going to be left flat on their fannies, Mr. Speaker. But the damage is done now. They have created a housing shortage in this city. They have gone down right in the heart of Tory St. John's and they have gutted it out.

They have brought in the bulldozers and levelled everything down in my hon. friend's area, down in the Gower Street area, Water Street West, in the centre of the Province, in the heart of the Province, they have gone down and they have gutted it out, and in the process they have left large numbers of people marooned as -far as housing is concerned. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if the present high interest rate continues, and there is every indication that this trend is not going to stop,then it is going to be increasingly difficult for families, especially young couples just getting married, to be able to build or purchase a home of their own in this Province in the foreseeable future. It will be virtually impossible- L: is impossible now. The housing industry in this Province has slowed down to a snail's pace, and I was surprised to hear that statement from Gander the other day that there is a housing boom in Gander.

I do not know what is causing it, it may be the armed forces, maybe it is because of the federal money that is being ·spent there. I really do not know what the cause of it is, Mr. Speaker, but I think - MR. BARRY: The ground work was laid by the member for Gander (Mrs. Newhook). MR. NEARY: No,it is certainly not the ground work- the member for Gander had nothing at all to do with it. If there is a housing boom there but I - MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: chere is some peculiar reason for i~ Her planning. I beg your pardon? Her planning when she was mayor. 4690

May 21, 1981 Tape 1693 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: What is causing the housing boom in Gander at the Present time? MRS. NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY: People are moving in. But why are they moving in? Why are they gravitating towards Gander? MR. BARRY: They want to have the best member as their MHA. MRS. NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY: It is a good place to live. Well,! know it is a good place to live, I have a sister who liV.es there, but what is causing the boom now? Is it the armed forces who are Leefing up their operation in Gander? Are they hiring on any more people? Is there a boom at the airport? What is the reason? MR. BARRY: SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MRS. NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY: It is not a Liberal district. Oh, oh! The Department of Transport are - Terra Nova Tel. Oh, Terra Nova Tel. Are they building houses in Gander now? MRS. NEWHOOK: They are buying houses. MR. NEARY: Terra Nova Tel ; they are consolidating their operation in Newfoundland and the headquarters is in Gander, and Terra Nova Tel are buying houses. Well,there you go, federal funds again. MRS. NEWHOOK: (Inaudible) employees. MR. NEARY: Well, they are buying the houses for the employees or the employees are buying the houses themselves.

I knew there was an unusual reason for it, Mr. Speaker. Now I found out what it is. But as hon. members know, in most parts of the Province that is not so,that the housing industry in this Province had practically ground to a halt, especially on the 4691

May 21, 1981 Tape 1693 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Avalon Peniz:tsula. And I would like for the minister to tell us what steps are being taken to undertake · a big housing development in this Province. People are not goinq to be able to buy their own houses. Tell us what kincl of programmes and incentives are being provided for people to get t _heir own acconunodations,whether they be rental accommodations or whether they be homes purchased from the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Housing Corporation.

This whole thing here,as good as it is, consolidating all the housing corporations and putting them under one roof, as good as that is, Mr. Speaker, that is not going to solve the problems of the people in this Province who are desperate for a place to live. I get calls myself every day from people who want apartments, low rental apartments in the city of St. John's. I call up the st. John's Housing Corporation and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Cbrportation and r am told that there are over 1,000 applications, over 1,000 people on the waiting list. A lot of them are emergencies, Mr.

Speaker, and that is not good enough. 4692

May 21, 1981 Tape; No. 1694 AH- l MR. NEARY: I think now that we are on this bill that it is a good opportunity for the government through some minister, I do not think the minister responsible for housing - oh, yes, the minister responsible for housing is here, but I do not know why the President of the council (Mr. Marshall) introduced the bill when the minister responsible for housing was in the House or within the precincts of the House. MR. WINDSOR.: MR. NEARY: I was not in the House.

Well, the hon. gentleman was not in the House but now perhaps the hon. gentleman can take over because we had no information supplied to the House by the hon. gentleman who introduced the bill. And Mr. Speaker, we want to know what is happening in this particular situation. We also want to know what is happening down in the town of Trepassey where as hon. gentlemen know the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation has a number of housing units in that community.

This was a letter that was written recently from the town of Trepassey, by the mayor, to the minister responsible for housing, and perhaps I will read the letter just to give the - it would be alright to read it, would it not? - to give the hon. House an insight on what is happening in Trepassey. It says, "Dear Mr. Windsor." This is dated May 11, 1981, just a few days ago, "The rental units of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation here in Trepassey have been a problem for council for many years.

The units have not been adequately maintained or repaired and are continually in a deplorable state of disrepair. This condition in a town where most residents take pride in their property is one that we cannot tolerate any longer. In addition to the deplorable conditions, several 4693

May 21,1981 Tape No. 16-94 AH-2 MR. NEARY: houses are left completely open to the public thereby posing a serious fire and safety hazard to curious children. Other older children simply go inside and vandalize the buildings. All previous requests, complaints and even threats to the corporation have been all but ignored." Let me read that again,just for the sake of the Premier,and see if he is riding herd on his ministers on this one. "All previous requests, complaints and even threats to the corporation have been all but ignored. We now intena to take whatever action is necessary to rectify this problem.

In your capacity as r-1inister of Housing we are a_sking you to look into this matter for us and maybe further action might be avoided . By copy of this letter,we are informing the provincial Fire Commissioner and others of this unsafe, deplorable condition. If further information is required,please advise the Trepassey Town Council." Now, Mr. Speaker, that raises another problem as far as housing is concerned in this Province, houses that are owned by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. We all remember what happened at the Ebsary Estate a number of years ago.

These houses had been vandalized and had been repaired two and three times over and over again and they deteriorated to the extent where a lot of them had to be torn down. But can the minister tell us if this is a real problem with the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and the St. John's Housing Corporation? We all know of families , of individuals,who have moved in and out of two and three and four apartments and wrecked them as they went. MR. HANCOCK: them after they moved out. MR. NEARY: And nothing done with And nothing done with the apartments after the people moved out. As in the case 4694

May 21,1981 MR. NEARY: Tape No . 1694 AH-3 of Trepassey they are left open for little children, curious children to wander in and out. Mr. Speaker, this is a bit of a problem. 1 do not know how you. can deal with J?eople. I would say fortunately they ~e not large in numbers but there are people who are wreckers, they are just natural born wreckers . They wreck one apartment andone house after the other. It is unfortunate because they make it bad for other people.

The minister might be able to tell us how serious this problem is, how the Newfoundland and Labrador Rousing Corporation · carry out their inspections, how they cope with this kind of a situation. In some cases some of these wreckers have cost the taxpayers of this Province a small fortune, one after the other. 4695

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1695 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: What kind of inspections do the St. John's Housing Corporation carry out and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to keep tabs on these people? Mr. Speaker, I have seen some developments,especially in the St. John's area 1 of row housing, of beautiful apartment buildings like we see over at Buckmaster's Circle- they are beautiful; I have been in a lot of these apartments over there, they are beautiful, fit for a queen- but, Mr. Speaker, some people,fortunately not too many- AN HON. MEMBER: A minority. MR.

NEARY: - ;;t minority 1 but when they do get in there 1 some of these people/ they wreck these apartments. Now surely there must be some way that that can be stopped. surely the inspectors,if they go about their business in the right way and they see that the people are getting sloppy towards their apartments,that the apartment is deteriorating, they can deal with it immediately and not wait until it is wrecked.

And I would be interested in finding out what they are going to do with these apartments in Trepassey, built out of taxpayers' money, just laying there, the doors wide open, windows smashed out, an eye-sore in the community, children wandering in and out, adults in there probably doing all kinds of things - MR. WOODROW: MR. NEARY: as the hon. gentleman says. MR. HANCOCK: devalued. MR.

NEARY: Carousing and drinking. - carousing and probably drinking, Everybody's property is being Public property, paid for out of the taxpayers' money,and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporatio~ elect~ to turn a blind eye to it. HR. WOODROW: They are not allowed to keep dogs. MR. NEARY: No, that is right. MR. HANCOCK: A dog would not go into some of them. 4696 -:,~

r-1ay 21, 1981 Tape No. 1695 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: And so, Mr. Speaker, these are some of the matters that I would like for the han. gentleman to deal with. But I would like for the han. gentleman to tell us what kind of a housing programme we can expect in this Province in the next year, the next two years, the next three years ? And not only in the city of St. John's, Mr. Speaker.- 1'1hat kind of a housing development is going to take place in other parts of Newfoundland?

I know in my own district of LaPoile-hon. members know that Port aux Basques is the largest community in LaPoile district you would never believe, Mr. Speaker, the desperate housing shortage in Part aux Basques. A couple of years ago the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing decided to build fourteen subsidized rental apartments in Port aux Basques -I believe because of the lay-aut of the land or the expense involved or something they eventually reduced it down to twelve or thirteen apartments. Very good as far as it went 1 but it did not go far enough.

Apart from that development 1 the construction of these apartment buildings, law rental units, apart from that there has never been any impact by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation in my district. Their presence is practically nil, Mr. Speaker. Newfoundland and Labrador Housing seem to concentrate all their efforts mainly in St. John's. Well 1 they have to remember that there are other places in Newfoundland besides St. John's or one or two of the other urban centres.

And when they do put them there,they just put them, there as if they were an unwanted godchild; they ignore them, they just do not want them, it is a nuisance to them. Inspectors and representatives of the St. John's Housing Corporation and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation have to leave home and go and visit these sites and have to visit these buildings and that is a bit of a nuisance to them. They would like to be able to jump in their car and drive down around and have a look around 4697

,, May 21, 1981 Tape NO. 1696 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: and not have to stay overnight in Port aux Basques or in St. George's or in Port au Port or on the Great Northern Peninsula or on the Southwest Coast of this Province. Everything seems to be St. John's oriented. l"..:R. HANCOCK: It is a wonder if they are not going to do anything with them,they do not auction them off and get them out of the way MR. NEARY: That is right. Well, the hon. gentleman is referr­ ing to the Trepassey problem. The hon. gentleman says, 'auction them off and get them out of the way.' How many of these apart­ ments are vacant, by the way? MR.

HANCOCK: Thirty. MR. NEARY: MR. HANCOCK: houses. MR. NEARY: Thirty apartments vacant? They are not apartments, they are Thirty houses, rather, vacant. Thirty. I did not realize there was that many. MR. HANCOCK: Over forty. MR. NEARY: Between twenty and thirty houses vacant in Trepassey. I presume these were plant workers and crews on the draggers that moved in there a few years ago, have since moved out or since bought their own houses or built houses in Trepassey. And unless something is done with them to upgrade them,and I doubt if they can be upgraded now, they will have to be torn down.

Call public tenders and tear them down and get rid of them. And so, Mr. Speaker, I would like to get some more information, Merely consolidating the op- eration of the various housing authorities in this Province is not going to solve housing problems. 4698

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1696 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: And not only that, Mr. Speaker, not only do we need houses to put a roof over the families who are desperate for accomodations in this Province,but it also creates employment. As hon. members know, the housing industry is lab­ our intensive. It creates a lot of work, a lot of jobs,and I do not think we-_ could do a better thing at the moment than to embark upon a massive housing programme in this Province to try to solve the problems of accomodations throughout various parts of the Province.

I am sure that the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation hav.e identified the areas where there is a shortage of accomodations. If they have not ident­ ified the areas, then they should. They should know where they are. I just named one, Port aux Basques. MR. HANCOCK: What about if you had something with the Rural RRAP programme? Only in Tory areas, I imagine. MR. NEARY: Well, I know. I am not talking about Tory areas. I am talking about all over Newfoundland. But it is very hard, Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult indeed to get this government to think about rural Newfoundland.

When it is convenient for . thern they will play up to rural New- • foundland 1 but when you have eleven districts in the city of St. John's, eleven districts, eleven Tories elected in the city of St. John ·' s, more members elected than in a thousand miles of coastline stretching from Cape Bonavista to Cape Chidley in the North and the whole of Labrador,that huge territory of Lab­ rador, between Labrador and between Cape Chidley and Cape Bonavista, the Green Bay area, the Great Northern Peninsula elects ten members. St. John's elects eleven. Eleven. AN HON. MEMBER: You do not like that. MR.

NEARY: I certainly do not like it, It is not fair. It is not just. It is unfair, Mr. Soeaker. Yery unfair. That is why everything is concentrated in St. John'-s. 4699

May 21, 1981 Tape NO. 1696 EL - 3 HR. HANCOCY. : How many phone calls do you get a year? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there was a time in this Province 1 and I heard the hon. Mr. Smallwood when he was here refer to the government as Her Majesty's outport govern­ ment.-jokingly, of course, but he was proud of that. But today, what do you have? You have seven out of eleven St. John's members in the Cabinet, seven. They elect eleven mem­ bers in St. John's, seven of them are in the Cabinet. Well, they may be good men but I would think it kind of loads the dice in favour of St. John's.

It sta~ks the cards against rural New­ foundland. The member himself represents St. John's. MR. WINDSOR: No, he does not. MR. NEARY: Oh, yes he does. He is one of the eleven. One of the eleven . MR. WINDSOR: Mount Pearl is St. John's? MR. NEARY: No, the hon. gentleman is not . But the-re are eleven members elected, seven of whom are in the Cabinet and that is unfair. Rural Newfoundland is not getting a fair shake and never will as long as we have that balance in this Province. You have seventeen or eighteen Cabinet Ministers and seven of them represent St. John's districts. MR.

WINDSOR: How many calls do you get a year? 4700 ......

May 21, 1981 Tape 1697 EC - 1 MR . NEARY: What chance does the fellow in the rural area have? That is why you can get your synchro­ lifts financed by the Province, why they come to the rescue of a federal Crown corporation, one of the wealthiest in Canada. r1R. HANCOCK: Which area do1mtown (inaudible)? MR. NEARY: Pardon? ~1R. HANCOCK: Fourteen hundred voters. MR. NEARY: It was not done because of ~.-:ne feds, it was done because the eleven Tory St. John's members, seven of whom are in the Cabinet, were trying to save their political scalps, that is why it was done. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: I guarantee you they would not come to the rescue of Marystown in the same way as they did to Tory St. John's. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that even if St. John's only had one member in the Cabinet their presence would still be felt, they would still have a big impact on the government, because all the media are concentrated in St. John's, the government offices are here, So if they only had one member, St. John's would still get its fair share. And I am not trying to take anything away from St. John's. I am not trying to fan that old controversy of St.

John's versus the outports, I am not doing that at all, Mr. Speaker. St. John's, God bless them, let them get whatever they can get, but do not get it at the expense of the rest of the Province. MR. HANCOCK: Hear, hear! That is right. I do not hear the Premier guaranteeing st. Mary's - The Capes or any other district 1'-'ith $22 million for a synchrolift. MR. NEARY: No, I guarantee you, and you will not either, as long as you have that balance. There is the real problem in this Province. It is a real problem. The representation in this House and in the Cabinet is 4701 -::--

May 21, 1981 Tape 1697 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: unfair. And I can stand here until I get blue in the face and argue for a housing progr~e for rural Newfoundland, and the hon. gentleman, who is St. John's oriented, will get up and find ~arne little flimsy excuse to weasel his way out of it, to skirt around it, to skate around it, and ~ay, 'Oh, no. We built a few houses in Gander and we built a few in Corner Brook - ~~P .• TULK: MR. NEARY: But they do not have the funds. That is right. Bu~l t a few in Corner Brook, built a few in Gander, built a few in Stephenville, but that is it, that is the extent of it.

Rural Newfoundland, no. You know, Mr. Speaker, rural Newfoundland keeps this Province afloat. SOME HON . ~~E .MBERS : Right ! MR. NEARY: It is the primary producers, the fellows who produce the new dollars in Newfoundland, the !"·ellows who are the ones who pay the bills. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear 1 hear! . 1-tR-. NEARY: In St. John's, all you have is in-breeding, all you have are people who are feeding at the public trough, people who are getting their incomes, federal and provincial money, public servants and so forth.

I would say you could take the whole Crosbie empire, they do not generate one new dollar in this Province, not a new dollar - unless they get DAC off the ground, and that is highly improbable. They do not generate one new dollar. I have heard it argued, Mr. Speaker, how Crosbies are a great employer and Crosbies employ a lot of people. Well, I say, more power to them, but what do they produce? They are merely providing services, they are merely involved in the service industry and they are not producing anything to produce new dollars. MR. HANCOCK: MR. ~WORES: They are raping the grapes. They are parasites. 4702

May 21, 1981 Tape 1697 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: No, I would not go as far as to say that. But the point I am making, Mr. Speaker, is that the primary producers, the miners, the fishermen, the loggers, the fish plant workers - MR. TULK: Places like Fogo Island are another thir.q. MR. NEARY: That is right. When was the last t i me Fogo Island got a housing development? The primary producers are the people who keep her going, who keep the wheels turning, the primary producers, Mr. Speaker, mostly rural area fishermen.

But hon. gentleme .n hold their noses when you talk about the fishery , turn up their noses, and as a result, the fishermen, the loggers, the miners, the fish plant workers, are left 4703 . ...,. .'

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1698 mv - 1 MR. S. NEARY: to paddle their own canoe. They do not get much help from this government to build homes. And hon. gentlemen can go down in my district of LaPoile between Port aux Basques and Rose Blanche and I would defy them, I would challenge them to point to one other community where they have such beautiful homes, new modern homes. But they have to do it on their ·own, they do not get any help from this government. Urban, the urban centres 1 that is all they can think about, St. John's and the urban centres.

And I say the reason for it is because of the balance of power in this House ~nd in the Cabinet. What were you going to say there? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) ~1R. S. NEARY: If we were talking about the fisheries thev would be awake. Mr. Speaker, these are just a few of the matters tnat I raised. And I hope that in the transfer of power again that there will be no legal fees involved for the individuals, that they transfer of power will be made MR. HARSHALL: It will be done for free. MR. S. NEARY: Well, maybe it will be done for free.

I could tell the hon. gentleman about a few items that have been firmed out to some of the legal firms in this Province that are not free and far from it! ~1R. THOMS: MR. S. NEARY: MR. THOMS: MR. S. NEARY: det;Jartment. HR. THOMS: $250,000 last year. For what, for legal fees? For who? Farmed out. More than that, that is only one Yes, that was only one. 4704

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1698 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: That is only one department. The hon. gentleman should go through the Estimates and look at all the legal fees and see where it is all buried. And so, Mr. Speaker, I presume we are going to - I have not heard from all my colleagues - but I would assume we are going to support this bill. We do not see anything wrong ~-~i th it. I doubt very much if it will eliminate the bureaucracy. The bottleneck will still be there. I think they need to do a little P.R., a little Public Relations at the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and at the St. John's Housing Corporations.

They need to give people more information. They have to give up this idea of slamming doors in people's faces because they are tormenting the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and the St. John's Housing looking for apartments and looking for houses. They become a bit of a pain in the neck, day in and day out you see the same old. faces, so what do they do? They get belligerent and obnoxious with the people who are paying their salaries and practically order them out of the office. They have to get over that, they have to remember that they are public servants in every sense of the word. I have seen it happen.

The arro­ gance .. of _some of that crowd, Mr. Speaker! The empires they have built up! And then again the hon. gentleman might tell us a few things about the public tendering practices of the St. John's Housing Corporation and the Newfound­ land and Labrador Housing Corporation. From what I can hear there is a lot there that leaves a lot to be desired. They have built up a system of patronage that would even make the government itself look like babies, look like pikers. How strong now is the government on making the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and the St.

John's Housing Corporation, how adamant are they that they follow the Public Tendering Act to the 4705

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1698 OW - 3 MR. S. NEARY: letter of the law? According to some of the stories that I hear, Mr . Speaker, that is not happening. I hope that soon, very soon,when the Purlic Accounts Committee disposes of the routine items that are reported this year in the Auditor General's report - and there are quite a few to lbe dealt with- that when we start our public hearings again that somewhere down the road before ~e end of this year in the not too distant future that the Public Accounts Committee will be able to send for witnesses and send for documents of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, 470 6

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1699 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: send for their balance sheet, and 1having examined the balance sheet,then delve a little more closely into the affairs, the operations, of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, the Corner Brook Housing Corporation and the St. John's Housing Corporation . . I believe the Public Accounts Committee have the right to investigate Crown corporations. I think one of the Crown corporations that should be looked at as soon as possible is the housing corporation.

And then I would put high on the list of priorities foe the Public Accounts Committee Memorial University. And I can hear the screams and the yells now about ' - what is it they call that down there 1 the protectio~ they have, about imposing on their - what is it they call it? AN HON . MEMBER: What? MR. NEARY: At the University when they argue that you cannot go in there to investigate them? MR. F. ROWE: Academic freedom. MR. NEARY: Academic freedom.

Their academic freedom; I can hear them now yelling, "Foul" , crying "Foul, this is going to encroach on academic freedom." I believe the Public Accounts Committee should, once they get all the other items off their plate, off the agenda, should look into, investigate every Crown corporation in this Province~ Newfound­ land Farm Products, Memorial University, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation,and that includes all the other housing corporations, Newfoundland Liquor Corporation- what other ones do we have? Oh, and cousin Vic's Newfoundland Hydro, we should certainly take a look at that, Mr.

Speaker, to see what kind of a haven that has become for people who have failed in business and in industry, for political appointees, see what kind of a haven that has become. MR. BARRY: What political appointed appointees? 4707

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1699 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Political appointees, Newfoundland Hydro. Mr. Speaker, I put a question on the Order Paper and I asked the hon. gentleman, the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) to provide me with a list of all those who were receiving $25,000 or more in wages and salaries · at Newfoundland Hydro. I have not got the answer yet. But it will be interesting if I ever do get the answer, and I doubt very much if I will ever get it. MR. BARRY: Public knowledge. MR. NEARY: It is hot public knowledge. The hon. gentleman refuses to give the House the information - MR.

BARRY: He cannot refuse. MR. NEARY : - the same as other ministers. I put the same question to some other ministers. I do not know if hon. members are aware of it or not,but I would say it goes pretty close to being unlawful for ministers to withhold information from this House. MR. BARRY: What an imagination. MR. NEARY: And so, Mr.

Speaker, the Public Accounts Committee 1 I would think, if they do their job 1and as long as I stay on it, I do not know how long I will stay on, but as long as I stay on the Public Accounts Committee I can see that we have our work cut out for us, that we should examine into the operations and proceedings of all Crown corporations. And I believe in order to help the Public Accounts Committee do this I believe they should be given sufficient staff, research people, and sufficient office space and secretaries and the like, to be able to do their job in the way in which it should be done. So, Mr.

Speaker, what took me on that line of thought was my statements about the bureaucracy, the contempt that they have for their tenants, the contempt they have for their tenants - 4708

May 21, 1981 MR. THOMS: MR . NEARY: Tape No. 1699 NM - 3 The contempt they have for everybody. - the lack of consideration they have for human beings, the lack of resp ect they have for people who pay their salaries. MR. THOMS: The Chairman is the worst offender. MR. NEARY: Who is the Chairman,by the way? MR. WINDSOR: What is the relevance of this? MR. NEARY: The relevance of it is, Mr. Speaker, as hon. members know, when we are debating a bill of this magnitude to merge or consolidate the operations of all the housing authorities in this Province , it develops into a very wide- ranginq debate. MR. CARTER: How did Hydro get into it? 4709

May 21,1981 Tape No.l700 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. CARTER: How did Hydro get into it? MR. NEARY: Well, if the han. gentleman had been listening to what I said, how I tied Hydro into it, I said the ~ublic Accounts Committee should - I do not know if the han. gentleman is serious,-if he is baiting me or not - but the Public Accounts Committee should examine into the op­ erations of all Crown corporations and then a list of them, not only the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, the st.

John's Housing but also Newfoundland Hydro Corporation, the Newfound­ land Liquor Corporation, the Farm Products, the Rural Develop­ ment Authority, the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Loan Corporation. You know, Mr. Speaker, it is simply amazing - Newfoundland Hydro would be a big one. I would say the two big ones would be Memorial University and Newfoundland Hydro.

But I believe the Public Accounts Committee, in which the han. gentleman is a member 1 would be providing a very great service to the people of this Province if it were to go in and go through the Newfoundland Hydro Corporation with a fine tooth comb. I would say if they hear my remarks down there today, they would be shaking in their shoes. Cousin Vic would be going through files like you would not believe, throwing stuff out. The trucks would be headed for Robin Hood Bay as they were headed for Robin Hood Bay after we started to look at Confederation Trust.

And all the records were put in the back trunk of a car down at Omega Apartments and transported down to Robin Hood Bay , and burnt or buried. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) or get burnt. MR. NEARY: The Confederation Trust and the Stanfield Trust. And so, Mr. Speaker, that takes care of my few remarks. I am sure other members would lik.e to have a few words on this particular matter. 4710

May 21, 1981 Tape No, 1700 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: What about the legal fees? The hon . gentleman is making notes there. Tell us about the legal fees and who gets the legal work for the Newfoundland and Lab­ rador Housing Corporation? Is there a list of Tory lawyers? Is there a list of lawyers, period? If so, would the hon. gentleman give us the list? MR. THOMS: I do not get any. MR. NEARY: My hon. colleague here tells me, the member for Grand Bank (L. Thoms) that he does not get any legal work from the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. I under­ stand on the West Coast, Mr.

S~eaker - I just reminded myself of something when I brought this up - out on the west Coast, in the Bay St. George area only one lawyer handles all the New­ foundland and Labrador Housing legal work. AN HON. MEMBER: How many lawyers in Stephenville? MR. NEARY: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: How many lawyers in Stephenville? MR. NEARY: Did I say it was Stephenville? There is probably about, I would say, one tenth of a lawyer in Stephenville. But I did not mention Stephenville. The hon. minister somehow or another related my remarks to Stephenville but what I said was that there is no public tender.

Why do they not call public tenders for legal fees? Why not? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: They have their own little closed shop, they have their own little racket going. But in the Bay St. George area, one lawyer does all the work. AN HON.MEMBER: Who is . it? MR. NEARY: I do not know, but somebody told me that he sits on the opposite side of this House. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Is that not a conflict of interest? Well, I do not know if it is con- flict of interest or not. But is that fair, Mr. Speaker? Is that just? A few miles away you have a good lawyer down in 4711

May 21, 1981 Tape No . 1700 EL - 3 MR. NEARY: Port aux Basques who would not mind doing some of that work in the Bay St. Georg e area. And there are lawyers in Stephenville who would not mind having it. Howm~y lawyers are in Stephenvill .e, by the way? AN HON. MEMBER: Three. .MR : NE.ARY : Three. Well, there you go. There are two law £irms 1 and the hon. minister tried to leave the im­ pression that there is only one law firm there. The other firm gets nothing ;.. well, I mean ,what is the reasc :m for it? I mean, Mr. Speaker, is there a bit of patronage here?

Is the govern­ ment handing out a few goodies to their backbenchers to keep them in line, Mr. Speaker, is that the reason for it? MR. WINtSOR: It would not be th.e first time. 4 71 2

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1701 so - 1 MR. NEARY: Oh, I see. Now1 will that fall under the Premier's new code of ethics? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: Will it? Will that gentleman be told now you either participate in politics or you leave Newfoundland and Labrador Housing alone, one thing or the other? MR. HANCOCK: He can bid on it. MR. NEARY: No, he cannot bid on it. There is no bidding, there is no tenders, no biddinq. ~1R. HANCOCK: Do. they not call tenders for it? MR.

NEARY: No, it is dealt out just like you deal out cards in a card game to the lawyers 1 that is the way they do it over there. rs this fellow Tory? Look at the list? Tory, Liberal, Tory, Liberal, Tory, that is the way it it done, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: The minister just ticks them off. SOME HON . MEl1BERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: I remember once I was arguing about Central Mortgage and Housing. Central Mortgage and Housing has a list of lawyers, they have had it there for years. I do not agree with it.

I am sorry to say that is one policy of the Government of Canada that I violently disagree with. They keep a list of lawyers,and if the government changes 1 the list is changed the next day. And, you know, Mr. Speaker, I once saw a great Tory, he used to be a member of this House, Tory member, he got his name added to the list and I remember the gentleman who was responsible for getting that Tory lawyer on the list of C!"lliC, I remember him saying to me, "Boy, is that not great• Now the Tories cannot criticize us because we put one of their own on the list!' Mr.

Speaker, what kind of a system are we working under? What kind of a system is that when you 4 71 3

May 21, 1981 T ape No. 17 01 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: have to take the lawyer that they tell you to take? You cannot get a lawyer of your own choice. You have to take some quack who is foisted on you. MR. l'JINDSOR: They are all quacks, MR. NEARY: No 1 they are not all quacks; I am not saying they are all quacks. AN HON. MEMBER: They are all Liberals. MR. NEARY: No 1 they are not all Liberals ; one is a big Tory and there may be several big Tories. But the fact of the matter is that the list should be abolished, there should be no list at all. · MR.

THOMS: They effectively do that when they raise mortgage rates 20 per cent; there is nothing going across the desk now. MR. NEARY: Well that is precisely the thrust of my earlier remarks about the.housing industry. MR. a~NCOCK: And they think that Nova Scotia (inaudible), MR. NEARY: Yes. The housing industry in this Province is practically grounded to a halt. It is down to a snail's pace. But, r-1r. Speaker, getting back to this again, that list should be abolished.

Why should they go around and pick out this lawyer and that lawyer and then call up his neighbors or his buddies or his friends to see if he is a Liberal? How did he vote the last time? You get to work for CMHC and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing on the way you voted the last time. And who pays the bill? The individual who is buyir .g a house or arranging a mortgage pays the bill. He does not care how the lawyer voted as long as he is a good lawyer, that is all they care. MR. THOMS: Cinaudible) market cornered. MR. NEARY: Who has the market cornered? MR. THOMS: The bon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

R-oberts) . 4 71 4 . ......,, .

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1701 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, that is right. And they are not only on that side of the House, they are on this side of the House too who got the market cornered. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: They get their goodies from Ottawa and their goodies from the Province, play both ends against the middle. Is it any wonder, you know, Mr. Speaker, if they gave me the goodies I do not know but I would go to a Tory roast, a Tory fund raising banquet and roast se·nator Doody, I do not know but I would go myself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: I went and (inaudible) MR.

NEARY: First time in the history, I suppose, of politics in this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: A rattlesnake. MR. NEARY: Well if there is a rattlesnake in there then the hon. gentleman can have him. MR. THOMS: The guest of honour. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman will be the guest of honour is right. Mr. Speaker, it is not right; why should the lawyers have that little privilege, why should they? SO.~~E HON . .~1Ei"' BERS : MR. NEARY: a privilege. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. t1EMBER: MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! It is far from little but it is You are all jealous. Pardon? You are all jealous . Why should they have it, Mr.

Speaker2 Can Your Honour give me any good reason why the lawyers should have that advantage? And I am not only criticizing the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and the provincial government, Mr. Speaker, I am not criticizing just one government; I am 4715

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1701 SD - 4 MR. NEARY: criticizing both. gover·nments , It is the system; it is wrong, it is unfair, MR. THOMS: Wi.th. the exception of one 1 they are all Tories on the CMHC list anyway. ·' r: 4716

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1702 PK - . ~ MR. NEARY: Well, that would not surprise me. I have not seen the list lately. I would like to see it. So, Mr. Speaker, having made these few remarks I hope that the minister now when he stands to close the debate and I am not sure which minister is going to close the debate - that he has made note of all of the questions that I raised. And these are valid questions, Mr. Speaker, that deserve answers, and they are not deserving of the minister getting up and scolding the Opposition or scolding me or saying, "We do not know what you are talking about.

This is rubbish, and that is garbage." That is not answering the questions. These are hard questions, penetrating questions put to the minister. And the minister should not getup and attempt to make a political speech. The minister should get up and answer the questions head on, answer the questions, give us information; never mind scolding us, never mind attacking us, never mind the confrontation policies that we have seen for the last couple of years in this Province, forget that. We are trying to get roofs over the heads of families in this Province who cannot find a place to live.

And we are trying to get a fair deal and a square deal for people, especially in the rural parts of this Province. And I hope the minister will answer the questions and not just get up and give us a lecture like a school teacher or scold us. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: 4 71 7 They cannot define rural. Pardon? They cannot define rural.

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1702 PK- 2 HR. NEARY: They cannot define rural. No, of course not. One of my colleagues was going to ask a question one day - I do not know if he ever got around to it, I have only been out of the House one dav - he was going to ask if the government could define the difference between rural and urban. And I do believe he did ask it in Committee, but I do not think he got the answer. Mr. Speaker, I hope the hon. gentle- man will oarticioate in ... ~1e debate on this bill on second reading because a lot of the housing shortage, a lot of the oroblems are in the hon. oentleman's district. DR.

MCNICHOLAS: What problem? MR. NEARY: You have not got the ~roblem? Well, the member for St. John's Centre '(or. McNicholas) has the problem, the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) has the problem, the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), the member for St. John's West (Mr. Barrett), St. John's - DR. MCNICHOLAS: If you would only sit down, I will get up. MR. NEARY: Pardon? DR. MCNICHOLAS: If you would only sit down, I will get up. MR. NEARY: T.-Jell if the hon. gentleman is going to get up and s~eak, I will gladly sit down, Mr. Speaker, and give him an opportunity. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : DR.

MCNICHOLAS: The hon. member for St. John's Centre. Mr. Speaker, I would like to endorse some of the remark.s made by my friend for Lapoile (Mr. Neary), in particular regarding the housing shortage in St. John's Centre. I am well aware of that. I have been trying to get people into 4 71 B

May 21, 1981 Tape 1702 PK - 3 OR . MCNICHOLAS: subsidized housing since I became a member here. And I must say I completely disagree with the member for LaPoile (Mr . Neary) when he criticizes St. John '·s Hous ing . I have had to deal with two members there and I think they are very loyal public servants and I do not mind naming them, Mr. O' Neill and Mr. Kelly . They have gone out of their way to help the people that I have phoned them about , and I give them every credit.

I know that there are about 700 on the waiting list there, and they deal with them on a point oystem, and they certainly do not bru s h off anybody, they are ready at any time to see these people and deal with them in a very fair and honest way. I mentioned before, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to bring it up again , there is an area in St . John ' s Centre directly West of City Hall, and that was an area , if you like, gouged out of the owner who was there twenty years ago , when they were paid a mere pittance for their houses and it has been left empty ever since .

My information rec ently is that City Hall is now going to lease or sell 4 71 s

May 21,1981 Tape No. 1703 AH-1 McNICHOLAS: that property for expensive high-rise apartments. If that is true I do not think the mayor and councillors should be re-elected next November. I think that is land that should be made available for the average citizen in St. John's Centre and personally I hate to see the way the housing in my district is being bought up for high-rise office bui~dings. I realize that the people who own the houses are perfectly entitled to sell them but I certainly do not like it and I do not think it is a healthy thing for downtown St. John's.

Finally,I remember sometime last year there was a meeting. I think it was with the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and I brought up the thing about some empty houses on Cashin Avenue. That is in the West End there. I drove by there only a few days ago and these houses are still boarded up. I do not see why that should be with people just dying to get some type of housing. They are there with boards over the doors and over the windows and I would like to see something done about that. MR. SfEAKER (Baird): he will then close the debate. Development. "MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If the minister speaks The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I will try to respond to some of the points that have been made. The hon. gentlemen opposite can make all kinds of statements and claims and fabricate what he wants but he certainly cannot make them facts. The converse of that is also true.Some of the facts that exist he cannot change those either. We have heard a great tirade of all the things that are not being done but the hon. gentleman neglected to talk about things that the Housing Corporation is doing 4720 .--t.r # ...

• May 21,1981 Tape No. 1703 AH-2 MR. WINDSOR: in rural Newfoundland. The hon. gentleman,who,by the way) let me point out, has lived all his life in St. John's yet proposes or professes to be the great protector of rural Newfoundland and Labrador, he never has lived in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A point of order. A point of order. The Mr. Speaker, I would just like to point out that the hen. gentleman has just made an incorrect statement. Most of my life I lived on Bell Island and would not have anything to do with St. John's.

I would not touch it with a barge pole. And the hen. gentlerna~ should know the hostile feeling between outport Newfoundland, Bell Islanders and St. John's, and if he does not he should know now. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: hon. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: To the point of order. To the point of order.The There is another example of the hon. member abusing the rules of the House for the purpose of interrupting a minister who is making a statement. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. There is no point of order and the hon. member took the opportunity to comment. Development. MR. WINDSOR: The . ~on. Minister of Mr.

Speaker, you are quite correct,there is no point of order any more than there was a point of order if I had stood a few moments ago and objected when the hon. gentleman said I was a member from St. Jonn's, which I am not. I am the member for Mount Pearl and very 4721

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1703 IB-3 MR. WINDSOR: . facts remain, Mr. Speaker, and - MR . HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD) : hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: proud of it. The A point of order. A point of order, the I had intended to rise on this point of order but the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) rose. But the minister in speaking a few minutes ago accused the member for LaPoile of fabrication. And Beauchesne, page 106, says that fabrication or fabricating a statement is unparliamentary. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order Mr. Marshall. MR.

MARSHALL: A point of order has to be brought up at the earliest possible opportunity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: Just a second, the point of order had to be brought up - maybe the hon. gentleman opposite would like to go in the Hansards over the last five or six years and raise these things. I mean . it is really ridiculous. I suppose if a minister wishes to he will do whatever has to be done to stop the spurious interruptions to which he has been subject. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR.

HODDER: I did try to bring it up at the earliest possible opportunity except for the fact that another member just happened to beat me to the floor on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order . I will have to check out Hansard so I will reserve judgement on it. The hon. Minister of Development. 4722 I •

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1703 IB-4 MR. WINDSOR: To that point of order, let me withdraw, Mr. Speaker, and get on to something "important and not waste our time on these foolish points of order. If that is unparliamentary I withdraw it. The point I want to make, Mr. Speaker, is very simply this, that the Housing Corporation is certainly not neglecting rural Newfoundland and Labrador. And the facts speak for themselves. The han. gentleman may choose to try to ignore them but he cannot ignore the facts. He says, 'The Housing Corporation has done nothing for rural Newfoundland' .

Well, we have h"ad three new programmes over the past number of years, Mr. Speaker, and what were they? Were they aimed at St. John's or were they aimed at rural Newfoundland? How about the provincial housing programme, Mr. Speaker, provincia -l Assisted Homeownership Programme? Let us have a look at a couple of facts. AN HON. MEMBER: That is not. MR. WINDSOR: -The hon. gentleman probably has not·heard of it or he chooses to ignore it, for the does not want to recognize the fact that it has been a fairly effective programme and that it has benefited rural Newfoundland. The facts of the matter are ~ Mr.

Speaker, that out of the number of grants paid under that programme-237 of them by the way have been paid to date over the past three years - better than BO per cent of them carne from rural Newfoundland. And when I say rural Newfoundland,I am talking all except the eleven districts hon. gentlemen listed a few moments ago, Anything in the metro area I am considering as St. John's. Everything else the hon. gentleman chooses to call rural Newfoundland. Forty-one out of a total of 237 have been in 4723

May 21, 19-81 Tape 1JQ4 E.C ... 1 MR. WINDSOR: those eleven districts. All the rest, almost 200 of them, 196 of them, came from rural Newfoundland. If bon. gentlemen want to tell me how many are in their districts, or want me to tell them how many there are in their districts, I can tell the hon. gentleman from Carbonear (Mr. Moores) that he had twelve approved and seventeen more under consideration. I can tell the hon. gentleman from Terra NOVa (M~.

Lush) that he had eight and there are eleven more under consideration: that is twenty from Terra Nova, that is half as many as in all of these eleven districts in St. John's. So that does not appear to me, Mr. Speaker, to be a programme that is aimed at St. John's. In fact, just the reverse is true. It is very much a programme that benefits rural Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WINDSOR: we initiated last year - MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! Fact number two, Mr. Speaker, Will you table that? MR. WINDSOR: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I will table that gladly if the Clerk will agree to give me - I will table the two pages of statistics that I quoted. MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much. MR. WINDSOR: Last year, Mr. Speaker, this government announced a new programme called the Rural Mortgage Lending programme. Now, I am not sure what that has to do with St. John's, but it is a rural mortgage lending programme, because we identified a vacancy, a hole that existed, where people in rural Newfoundland were unable to get mortgage fundings from normal commercial channels. MR. STIRLING: Why not? MR.

WINDSOR: Simply because it was not available, because the banks or finance companies or mortgage companies did not operate in those areas, and unless you made less than 4724 -:.---

May 21, 1981 Tape 1704 EC - 2 MR. WINDSOR: no way - $15,000 a year, then there was ' AN HON. MEMBER: Federal funds. MR. WINDSOR: No, that is totally provincial. The Rural Mortgage Lending programme is totally provincial, there is no federal component to it. The hon. gentleman cannot change that fact either, Mr. Speaker. The fact is that we have put that programme in place so that it is now possible for somebody in rural Newfound~~nd who is making more than $15,000 a year - and it only applies in communities that have populations of less than 5,000. So that is hardly going to be classified, Mr.

Speaker, as a programme that is aimed at urban Newfoundland or at St. John's. Hon. gentlemen like to try to separate St. John's from the rest of the Province. We also last year, Mr. Speaker, announced a Lot Subsidy programme. Now, Mr. Speaker, where are those building lots? They are not in St. John's. In fact, we said building lots in St. John's would not be eligible because they will sell at market rates. They are not even in Corner Brook. We did not include Corner Brook, the second city of the Province, because we said, 'The market can stand it there.' But they are in rural Newfoundland.

They were in Glovertown, Mr. Speaker, in the district of the hon. the member for Terra Nova (_Mr. Lush). They were up on the Northern Peninsula in Daniel's Harbour. AN HON. MEMBER: (_Inaudible). MR. WINDSOR: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WINDSOR: AN HON. MEMBER: I beg your pardon? (Inaudible) . How many? (Inaudible l . MR. WINDSOR: I cannot answer that question. I do not know how many have gone. The point is, Mr. Speaker, that we did make very sizeaole reductions in the price of those 4725

May 21, 1981 Tape 1704 EC - 3 MR. WINDSOR: building lots in order to stimulate housing in rural Newfoundland and to try to stimulate housing construction generally. So, Mr. Speaker, when the hon. gentleman says that the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation is not putting any emphasis on rural Newfoundland, that is totally untrue. In fact, this whole bill, Mr. Speaker, emphasizes that it is not true. What we are doing is simply saying that there is no longer any justification to have a separate St. John's Housing Corporation. There was indeed when it was established back in 1944 by

an act of the Legislature. There was indeed a need at that time to create housing by merely, of course, saying that those who were returning from the Second World War. And the Housing Corporation has fulfilled an extremely good mandate, has created thousands of homes and thousands of building lots in the city of St. John's and has fulfilled a need. And there will still be a need, and that need will now be fulfilled by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, which will include all housing policies and programmes of the Province so that we have a more unified approach.

And although we have had a great deal of emphasis, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation is in primarily rural Newfoundland, it will now cover everything and it will not be a separate housing corporation for St. John's any more than there is now a separate housing corporation for Corner Brook, since that has been (inaudible). · MR. FLrGHT: linaudible) Department of Justice - . MR. WINDSOR; MR. FLIGH.Tl! explain Cinaudiblel. MR. WINDSOR! I beg your pardon? linaudiblel the .minister Would the hon. gentleman like to explain why industrial parks should be anywhere else but in 4726

May 21, 1981 Tape 1704 EC - 4 MR. WINDSOR: the Department of Development? Because that too is very much a part. MR . FLIGHT: (Inaudible) . MR. WINDSOR: Well, it is all part of the housing corporation mandate, Mr. Speaker, and the rationale for making the Department of Development or combining Industrial Development wit.h Housii).g and with Tourism was simply because housing is very much an industry; it is a very important industry, and it is important that the department that has the responsibility for developing industry in the Province also has the wherewithal 4727 .. :~ '~-

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1705 DW - 1 .MR. N. lrJINDSOR: to provide the residential and commercial and industrial infrastructure that might be required in order to put in that. We now can because we have a Department of Development all under one roof, we have the mandate, the wherewithal and the expertise to put together a total development package. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us talk about some of the housing programmes that we do not have. The hon. gentlemen are concerned about housing in St. John's. We do not have a land banking ~rogramme anymore, Mr. S9eaker.

That was one of the federal programmes that has been cancelled. I would like to have a land banking programme. We had one until two years aoo. And under that programme,with funds provided partly by the federal government, N'e were in a position to purchase land for future developments. Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker - HR. SPEAKER (Baird) : I would like to interrupt the hon. member just for one minute for the Late Show. It being five o'clock,I can inform the House that I have no notices for any motions for debate at five thirty when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House. The hon.

Minister of llevelopment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. N. WINDSOR: As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, we no longer have a land banking programme and I wish we did because I can honestly say to hon. gentlemen here if we did not have that land banking 9rogramme several years ago, if we had not bought the lands on which we are now presently developing the Cowan Heights development, some 1,700 housing units plus facilities that go with that, schools and churches and recreation facilities, institutional areas and all the rest 1 4728 •.

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1705 DW - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: we would be in a sorry state, Mr. Speaker, in St. John's today because we would not have any land on which to do these developments. And conse­ quently there is very little doubt that the price of land in this area would be at a much higher sale price than it is today. But that programme is gone, Mr. Speaker, and I can predict that if we do not replace that land banking programme,that five years from now we will have a very serious problem as it relates to the price of land in the St. John's area.

That pro­ gramme, of course, applied in all of Newfoundlandand gave us the opportunity to purchase land in other parts of Newfoundland to do developments as well. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman mentioned the high cost of interest and there ' is no question that the high rate of interest - and I just heard on the radio a few moments ago it is now today gone past 19 per cent, 19.06 per cent is the current Royal Bank of Canada rate as of today. Another high!­ Now, Mr. Speaker, there is no question that this has to be the most serious critical problem in housing today.

All provincial ministers have expressed that, we agreed on that here in St. John's back in February when all the colleagues of mine from across Canada came here and sat at a meeting of provincial housing ministers. We all agreed at that time that the high cost of interest is the matter of greatest concern to Canadians everywhere as it relates to building homes, not only homes but businesses as well. We are pro­ posing to address that and we have conveyed to the federal government, the federal minister, Mr. Cos­ grove, who ·is responsible for Canada mortgage- our concerns there.

And we ;.rill be meeting with him on June 1st. in Ottawa finally, for the long-awaited 4729

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1705 GS - 3 .MR. WINDSOR: Federal-Provincial Housing Ministers' Conference. I am also advised by a telephone call just a few moments ago, in fact, that the Housing and Urban Development Association of Canada, the local branch, will be having a press conference tomorrow morning, and I under­ stand that they will be addressing as well the problem of high interest rates and expressing some of the views that they have on the problems it is creating and, perhaps, some ways and means of combatting it.

I could point out that the former government in Ottawa did have a proposal to combat the high cost of interest and alleviate somewhat the burden that it has on the homeowner and the salary earner and, of course, that program went by the way. Han. gentlemen mentioned.as well, the shortage of public housing units. Mr. Speaker, there is nobody more acutely aware of the need for more public housing in Newfoundland and particularly in St. John's than I am. Y.Je had proposed this year two hundred units of public housing to the Federal Government for financing under the federal-provincial subsidized housing program.

Unfortunately, we only received approval from the Federal Government of 160, so we are not going to be able to build all of the public housing units that we need, and that 160, Mr. Speaker, is for all of Newfoundland. Undoubtedly, as a result of our market studies and our need studies, we will be locating most of them in St. John's because that is where the need is greatest.

Nevertheless, we have made efforts in the past, many efforts in fact, to locate these in rural Newfoundland where they are required and where we are assured that there is a sufficient number of families r.rho would recruire this particular type of housing. MR. NEARY: Who is responsible for those units in Trepassey? 4730 r•

May 21, 1981 Tape No. 1706 EL - 1 MR. WINDSOR: Those units in Trepassey, Mr. Sepaker, are the responsibility of the Newfoundland and Lab- rador Housing Corporation. There are twenty units there, by the way, not thirty vacant units with doors and windows flapp- ing, as the hon. gentleman would have us believe. There are seven vacant, seven are vacant. They have been placed for sale. To this point in time, there has been nobody expressing an interest in buying them. We are very aware, by the way, that the hon. gentleman was correct when i1.a aaid there is some vandalism down there.

That is being looked into and being referred to the police and we are taking whateve normal action is required there. MR. FLIGHT: MR. WINDSOR: What about the ninety-one lots in Windsor? Those ninety-one lots, Mr. Speaker, some of the ones I referred to a moment ago when we reduced the price of the lots in Windsor by, I think, a thousand dollars per lot, or something in that order, which is an attempt at writing off $91,000 of taxpayers money from other taxpayers of the Province, perhaps in St. John's. That is $91,000 going in to the hon. gentleman's district, 'by the way.

There has not been a great take- up, as I understand it,of these lots anywhere in Newfoundland. That is not because of the price of the lot. Our market studies indicated that by applying this kind of a reduction to the lot- the hon. gentleman is well aware that in Labrador City or in Wa- bush we did the same thing -very few lots, in fact, I am not sure that any have sold up there. Now, I am not sure what more we can do. We could give the lots away. MR. FLIGHT: Why not? MR. WINDSOR: Where there is a market demand, then obviously the lots will sell. But at least we have shown, Mr.

Speaker, that by even applying these reductions to the price of lots that that is not the problem 1 although people previously had been saying that houses are not going to be built there 4731

May 21, 1981 Tape NO. 1706 EL - 2 MR. WINDSOR: because of the price of the lots. We have removed that. I think we can pinpoint it to other factors, such as the high , cost of interest. We are rot getting any rental housing built, Mr. Speaker, very little, for a number of rea­ sons~ Interest, of course, was one of the reasons. Another one is the lack of the capital cost allowance that was once in eff­ ect, the Federal Government removed and last year now has part­ ially implemented, I think, to a level of 5 per cent which is at least a token move in the right direction but nevertheless does not have any significant effect on attracting investors to put money into