Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI Second Session Thursday VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Spea,ker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 8 22 March 1990

The House met at 2:00 p.m . MR. SPEAKER Ordel", Before proceeding to Orders of the Day I lJJould like, on behalf of han. Members, to welcome to the House of Assc::~mbly today 50 Gr-adl'::~ VI to IX students from the Pentecostal School, PoJ"t de GJ"ave accompanied by their teachers, Sonya Hiscock, Karen Janes and Junior Taylor. Also we would like to welcome to the galleries 21 level 2 ancl 3 students from Victoria School in Gaultois and they are accompanied by two teachers, Mr. El1is Coles ancl Ms Marie Blanchard. We would also 1ike t:o we1come l.:o the ga11E•I"i.es Mrs. Twomey, the wife of Former M. H.

A. and foJ"rner Minis l:.e1" the late Dl". TlJJornE:! y. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ht"!ar, h~C'ar! Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Jus l:.ice . MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, this is the s tat:ement I had prepared yesterday on the occasion I will mention in the statement, but bE•cauSE! of the orcl1:'r of business for thE'! day I did not get an opportunity to make it. However because of the irnpoJ"tanCE! of thE! occasion I fE!1t that it lAJas appropr-iate that I do so on the day subsequent.

I am therefore pleased to note that yesterday was celebrated as the Internationa1 Day for the Elimination of Racia1 Ll Mar-ch 22, 1.990 Uo1 XLI Dis Cl"irnination. This day is histoJ"'.i.caJly irnport.ant: and serves to giVE! us a spE•cial annual J"emindc::~r of the irnpol"l~ance of remaining vigilant against racism, prejudice and discrimination which are so harmful to society.

March 21 was first declared as International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination by the United Nations CenE!I"al Ass1:Hnbly 'in :1.966, in the J~emE!ITlbJ"ancE• oF thP day oin 1 9 6 0 lAJ h E! n rn o r e t h a n '/ 0 FH~ a c d~ u 1 demonstrators against apartheid lAJt"!re kil11'.!d and over :1.80 lAJet"e wounded in Sharpevi1le, South Afr·oi.ca.

Then, in dE!ClarE!cl 1993 as Action 1.983, the Untl:.1:~cl Nations the decade fl"Onl :1.983 t.o the Second Decade For to Combat Racial Disc l"irni nation, In order to paJ"ticipate rnor·e FuLly in t.he Second D1:'cade, Lhl':· Fc:>dE:~J"a1, Provincial and rerritoriaJ Governments agreed to officially commemorate March 21. as the International Day For Lhe Elimination of Racial Discrirninat-.ion. In rE!Cognition of that day, lAJO as a Province declared March 21 as th<:d~ day.

As lAJell, yeste1"day lAJas j~;suE:•cl a proc1arnation inviting all Members of Newfoundland and Labrador soc:i1;!t:y l':o l"f!Sp!O•ct. and pi"Oinol'.:c:! th1;! cli~1nity and hu1nan l"iqhls of everyone in accordance with the Pl"inciples ascr'ibE•d to j t by l:.he lJ n i t e cl N a l:. i o n s . M 1:' rn b E'! 1" s lkl oi. 11 f i n d a copy of the proclamation attadH~cl to t.his copy lAJil:.h tny siqnatul"E~. No, 8 r~ 1

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . On behalf of the OFficial Opposition, I would like to endorse the words and sentiments in l:he p1noclamal:.ion of t.he Minis l:.E!r of yestE~inday bEdng commemorated in our Province the same as other Canadian jurisdictions and other U.N. ME!rrlbE!In Nations as The Annual Day for the Elimination of Racia1 Discrimination. I was honoured to represent our Plnovince at a nat.iona1 meeting in September of 1988 when all Canadian jurisdictions agreed to observe this U.N. Day, March 21, each yc,ar.

While:~ it is finE! for all of us to voice .platitudes about the evils oF racial discrimination and urge racial tolerancE•, · that is easy !.~o.Jhl?.n we· live in a community or in a Province where just about eve1nyone is of the same r·ace. I think we are all tested though lAJhen we ITIE!B t and dE:'al l.~o.li th peop1E! of other races. The people of our Pl"ovi n c e arr:~ bc:d ng tested that t.~o.Jay now when we have in our midst about 2000 Eastern Europeans refugE!BS.

I think rather than simply mouthing platitudes in observing this UN day to end racial discr-:i.rninat:i.on we tAJould be achieving much more if we would act by doing things that demonstrate we appreciate having people F1norn Eas l:.ern Eu1nope in Ol.ll" midst. We I"E!Spect the human dignity oF each and every one oF those people, and to sho!AI that. lAIE! separate the issue of which Canadian jurisdiction, the Fedel"al Government versus the Provincial 1 ... 2 MiH'Ch 22, 1990 Vol XLI Government paying for the cost. of housing and feeding these people pending their immigration • hearings.

From the way we Feel about those individuals as human beings I think sadly the wrong message has got out about the position of the Gove1"nment of NetAJfoundland and Labr·ador. [ think it is incumbent upon the Minister of Justice as the Minister responsible For human r·ights, as we11 as l:he Prt:~rn'i.el·' and other Mird .stE'!''S to gEd~ aCI"oss a different message From that put across so far. Perhc-.:tps !AJe should follow the lead oF the Mayor of St. John 1 s !AJho spoke ye~;lE!i"day about the need for the community MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I ask the han . ME!I'I"!bE!l" to s j t:. please.

MS VERGE: Thank you . Ml~. SPEAKER : This particular Speaker has not been enforcing rules that have been appli~>.d by prtO'vious ~)p('•ab:!rS wH: .h respect to ~:>tatE!ITienL~; by Ministei"S. I have bN'I'l qiv i.ng a great degree of levity despite r e f 1 f:' c t i o n s y e s l~ E:' r· d a y !AI i. t h 1~ u s p t:! c t. to freedom of spE!E!Ch in th:is ldncl oF thing. Bul: I would lAJdnt l~o 1nem :l.nd hon . Me1nbers, OUI" ~)t:anclj _nq Orders say nothing on it, but previous Speakers have said haJ f l~h~~ time. I have a1t.~o.lays l:hour,:Jht that was rather sil1y - to give somebody halF l~he l:.i 1ne.

Beauchesne and the Rules of the H o u s e o F C o 1 nrn o n s s t·:. a U>. l:: h a l. i n n o cas~:· should i.t take rncn·e Urne l:.hi:Hl it took the Ministt:or to rnakt=! l:he st.aternenl:, but tho Mernbei " not.~o.J j,s getting j_nto mo1ne t:.:i1n~., l~han i.t t 0 0 k UlE' M :i n i s t E! In s 0 I l•l 0 u ] cl (,1 s k her to cl.ue up hE!r l"~ :!l'llar·ks. No. 8 R2

MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had actually expressed evorythtng that I i.ntendE:!d to say and I apologize for running slightly over time. Thc-.lnk you . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the MintstE!r of Education . DR. WARREN: Mr . Speaker. because importance of education elimination of discrimination in Canada like to add a few words of my colleague. of the in l:he racial I l.UOUld to those Mr. Speaker. you lAJi.ll be pleased to note that this year the Department of · Education has been very active in promoting human rights and rnulticultur·al education in our school curriculum.

We have just implemented two major modules on this topic in the senior high school social studies course and that course· is entitled Canadian Issues 1201. Furthermore. the rece~tly implemented grade 8 course on World Cultures emphasizes the importance of tolerance and harmony among different cultural groups. This month. Mr. Speaker, I am very plE!aSE•d to announce rny Department established a Multicultural Education Committee. This Cornrnittee is made up of educators and members of the local multicultural organizations. The mandate of this committeE! is tt~Jo Fold: 1.

To I?.Xarrrine the stat:.us of multicultural policy in the provincial departments across Canada . 2. Through consul tat ion with local groups concerned. to draft a provincia1 . rnulticu1tural policy For the Department of L3 Mai"Ch 22, 1990 Vo1 Xl...l Education, of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr . Speaker. the Department of Education wLl.l continuE~ to do :i.ls utmost to recognize the rights and contributions of outn rnuJ.Licultulna]. communities and it LI.Ji..l.l begin by developing a multi .cu1tural educational policy For the Pr·ovince.

I might add t:hat the DE•pat"lnlent of Educat.Jon has also I:H~E!n playinq a major role in assisting the Net.ufoundland and L.abr·aclor Hutndn Rights Associa tion in its 1ocal initiatives at the school level. This includes thE! dis LrJ.bution of resource 1naterials For bol:h teachers and studen ts and assisting in the organizaL ion oF a J.oca1 conf<;!I"E:~nce on Cl"oss ct.IH .. ul"al undE.~I"St.anding. y,,~st.E•J"ciay <3.L·. Lhi.s time I was addressing Lhat Conference here in St. John's. Mr.

Speaker. those ~~duca t:.iona1 initiatives are of gr·eatesL importance in today's time when we hE!ar and r·eacl comiiiE'nt s l:ha t. denigrate the rninot"ily groups, nol in other parts of th~::' lAJOi"J d. bu t in our own country - a country known for its tolerance and peace -keeping role in the world. Mr. SpE!akeJ". th (! Cover·nm<'!l 'l t. of NetAJfoundlancl and Labr ador anc:l Lht?. DE !partment of Education b eJ .:ie v ~:! that th e Can adian drt "d tl'l of a better and fairer Ca nad a is possible and t.ue lAJi ll do OUI " u l:.tno s L to make this dream a realJ.ty. Thank you very much . SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Ml~ . SPEAKFR : The hon. the Men1bE!r foi" St. Mary's ·- The Capes. No. 8 r·n

MR. HEARN: Thank you very much, Ml ". SpE!aker. Let me say, thank you to the Minister for, and providing rne lAiith a copy of the statement ., and also say to him that we also share a drl '>.a m for a better and fairer Canada. I would say that IAihen I fil~st got HIE! statc::'ment, the fil~st word that hit rne was discrimination. I thought the Minister !Alas going to rnai<E! a statement on the Budget and how he discriminated against thE! studE!nts in l"ural Newfoundland by clotng very little for the primary and elementary sections.

He also mentioned and emphasized the words 1 This year· WE! have implemented two major modules in the senior high school, The Canadtan ·Issues 1201 and Wo1~ld Cu1 tures 1 and I would remind thE· Minister t:hat courses for the high school arE! not implemented w:i.thin a FetJJ weeks or days or· lnonths, it takes quite some time. This work JJJas bE!gun long beforE! the Minis let ' carne to the DepartrnE!nt, so IJJE! can take ~orne credit for that .

We appreciate the fact that he has set up a cornmit:b~r~ to look at: l:he multicultural issue, however, hopefully there will be some subs lanCE! to the lJJorl< of the corr11nit:te~:! and not just a fuJ~ther study. But there ts one important staternE!nt OJ" paJ"t of t:he s taternE!nl:. t:hat stands out and t:he Minister drelAI attention to thr:' fact, that E~vr:~n todi:J.Y, he is vc::~l"Y concernr':!d when we hear and read comments that d~nigrate the minority groups, not in othE'!r pa1"ts of the W01"1d but .in OUI" OIJJn count1ny, and I pr'E!

SUrne herE·, he .is rE!ferring to the Premier 1 s cornrnents mad1?. in J"espect. to thE:! pE!OpJ.e of QuE:!bE!C, and I cE•rtatnly appr·eciate l:he Mini .stE !r's stand on that . We 1_/j. March 22, 1990 Vol XU agl~ee lAii.l:h l~ho Minis lei" thr::~J"e, Mr. Spr:~aker, and WE! <:'t]so, as I sa:id earlier, are proud to associate ourselves with hirn in agreeing that our young people who are corning through thE• schoo1 systr::)nJs IAJill perhaps h, ~J.p us develop l:hat bE:'tter and fairE!r' Canada, the Canadtan di"eam we a]J .d1nr:~am about~ . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR.

SPEAKER : BefoJ~e ca11.ing 0J"al Qur::•s t:.i ons, l:.hE! Cha:i .r JJJould just: 1ike to bl"inq l::o hon. Members' attc:: ~nt.ion St:.anding Orders to which I should have a 11 U d f:~ d t 0 .IJ e S t e I" d i:l .IJ b U t. IAI j ] 1 d 0 so today, our OlAJn Stanclj ,ng Oi"cleJ",

Section 31 (f). Hon. Mernbers IJJ-i L1 knOW IAI h y I r' i:l iS E! t h :i. S . T h :i. S :i. S PI"Obably one of th,::• most· · :i1nporLant of the Standing OrdE!rs we have. It is with respect to Ques~ion PeJ~iocl, and it is 31 (f), page 11, and it says 1 The Speaker's rulings relating to ora1 qu es t:i.ons are not debatable or subject to appeal. 1 Oral Questions MR. RIDEOU I: M1~ . SpeakE:' I". MR . SPEAKER : ThE! hon. the LE !aclei" cd L hE• Opposition. .t!J~ . .:...... .I~ .. l.Q _s .9 .~.I : Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

Mr·. ;:;pE!ai<E!r, I havE· a vei ".IJ shoJ"l::, very precise, no -nonsen se , no· ··Pr'earnbJ.e question Fol" L.he Mtntster of Finance (Dr. Kitchen). WiJ.l the Minister of Finance t.el1 this House IAihel :.her or not the payr·o11 of MeJnoJ"taJ . University of Newfoundland and Labrador is subject t:.o the No. 8 R 11.

I; Government's new payroll tax? DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finane~. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I will answer that question in the time I said. MR. SIMMS : Stop playing games, boy! MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker. with thE! samE! remarks that I introduced the first question, will the Minister tell l:he House tJJhether or' not the payroll of Newfoundland and Labtnc.Hior D1:1velopment Corporation is subject to the Minister's payr'oll tax? MR. SPEAKER : 'T"i1e Fic~n-: ·-the Minister of FinancE· . DR. KITCHEN: The same answer, Mr .

Speaker . MR. SPEAKeR: The hon. thE! LeadE!r of Opposition . MR . RIDEOUT : You tAl i.ll no t e • M r . s pea k e r • everybody win. note that the lhE• and same answer is no answer. Let me try the Minister again, Mr. Speaker. Will l:he Minisl:er te11 thE! HousE• whether or not the payroll of Newfoundland and Labrador Hardwoods Limited is subject to the Minister's payroll tax? MR . SIMMS: Answer the people, boy! L ':> March 22, 1990 Vo1 Xl...l MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE:! Ministe1n of Finance . DR. KITCHEN: Mr.

SpeakE!r', I indicat:E•d be-Foi "E!, and I do not want to gE!t :into l:.h1:1 long answe'r I gave YE!StE•rday, but I am going to make a definitive statemen t short1y re specUng as many of l~hese points as possib 'le. I would like han. ME!Hibers oppositE! to realize that. tAle arE• no l. doing that i.n a capt ~ictous fash'.i.on, tAlE! arE! doing tt to clar'ify mat.t~;;~J~s in an appropriate way. MR. WINDSOR : You brought in Lhe ago, and you sttll what you had in it . MR. RIDEOUT : Budgl'!l: a do not A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Leaclet" oF Opposition . MR.

RIDEOUT : IAJE!8 k k n O L\J Lh e Mr. Speak er, le t th e r ecord show that one l.I.Jee k to the clay, c1r ·l::E!r' the Minister br:inging clot ;.ll'l h:i.s BuclgE!t. and announ c in~J L.he payJ "o11 tax, he st. i.1.1 cannot. 'l:( !ll ernployE:'rs of Lh is Pt~ovi.ncE• and l.:hf '! pE:'op1e oF l:.h:is Hot1se t;.lh at corporati.ons, if any, ai"E' subj oct to the tax . MR. SIMMS : Shame! Shameful! MR. RIDEOUT: Min. ~)peaket", thE:' M:i.n:isl:.E•r can Lake his s~)at,' I have noL YE!t. asked rny supp1.E!mentar'y.

We can l~:O:l .J. by his previous anstAJE!'rs h~~ i.s 1nea lly anxious to cotrt"=' to h:i.s feeL IAr'i.th answers, Mr. Speaker. Let me ask the M:in:ister tht s, Speaker . Will Lhe Minister thE! Housr~ l.I.Jhel :.her' or not. No. 8 Mt ". t.el l LhE! I~

I) paylno11 Provinct?. Labrador of school boards in of Newfoundland is subject to Minister 1 s payroll tax? MR. WINDSOR: Or the Canadian Red Cross or HUB. MR. SPEAKER: the and the the The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I give the same anst ... Jer. AN HON. MEMBER: You do not know. MR. SIMMS: What an answt?.r! MR. WINDSOR: Why do you not rE!Sign? (Inaudible). MR. WOODFORD : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. MR. WOODFOfW : Mr. Speaker, my question tAiill also be to the Minister of Finance. In view of t:hE! fact, Min.

SpeakE!r, l:hat the Govr:'rnrnent in its Budget of J.ast lJ..JeE!I< introduced a payroJ.l tax of 1. 5 per cent, and in uit?.lJJ o·f Lh~::' fact that in Uw last fE•lJ..J days thc:1re has been lflass confusion with regard to thr:1 anstAJE!rS given by the Minister pertaining to certain corporations and Crown corporations in the Province, could th~::' Min:i.ster tE<I.1 the House tJJhe ther or not NetJJfound1and Hydro would be exempt From the tax? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the MinistE•r of FinanCE!. L6 March 22, 1990 Vol XLI DR. KITCHEN: Mr -.

Spc:1aker, I, as I said bE·Folne, ·will be making a dE:'fini .tivE• statement on l:his rnal:t.er shortly. I know thE! anslJ..JE!Ins to thE!SE• questions, but I arn not going to release all these dE·tai]s at the moment. MR. WOODFORD : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: lh e ho n . the Mernbt ?. r For' 1·1 Ulflbe 1n Valley. MR. WOODFORD : In a statement rnade by Lhe MinistE!r yrO!s Lt:>r'day, liansaJ"d, Page L14-, he sai.d, 11 Acconli.ng Lo

Section 12S of the Br''itish No1 r·Lh America Act 1 No J.ands or' PI"OPE!r\:.y belonging to Canada or any province shalJ. be liable Lo taxation.' Would il: be logical l:o assume, Min. Speakr,!l", that.-_ Newfoundland Hydro would be one of these so -called J.ands .and buiJ.dings, property? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, as [ said befor'e, I wil.l be making a sl:.atE•rnenl:. about all this short:J.y. Let tnP say this, though - and I hdVf;' sdicl :i_t.­ before - that: as far as all Lhese institutions are concerned, the people of the Province will not be adversely affected.

MR. WINDSOR: By $15 million taxation' r~o 1·T y Christmas! MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Mernb1;;-!r For Humber Va1ley. MR. WOODFOIW : BecauSE! Nt:'wfounclJ.and Hycl1no, in thE· No. 8 1~6

next coupJ.e of weeks, wi.lJ. be 111aking a requE'!Sl fot" a 11-.5 pel" cent increase for each of the next l~hree yeaJ"S, it tAJould bl':! logical to assume, I sup~>os.::~, that thE:• 1.5, which is an employer 1s payroJ.l tax, would be added to this 11-.5 per cent, whether they requ.::~st it nE~xt lAJN~k Ol" not. All the companies, all the utillties in the Pt"ovince, NE!WfounciJ.and TeJ., Newfoundland Light, the cable companies and NewfoundJ.and Hydro tAr.i.11 be looktng foJ" this incr'1"!asc:~ one tAJay or thE! othE!I".

Based on past experience, Newfoundland Light and Newfoundland Tel, all those private corporations, automatically go to PUB for an increase in their rates. Mr. Speaker, I ask th<:! Minist1':!r, is it not true that if it does not apply to Newfoundland Hyd1"0, then it ciE!finitely appli.es to the other ut.'.ilities in the Prov:inc1:!? So '.it-:. would be only l"ight t~o assume that they lAJiJ.1 be 'back for an incr·eas.::~ fa·.:i.rly soon, which lAJould put electricity bills up by about 30 pel" cent over the nE!Xt three yeaJ"S. Is this true, or is :it not trUE:1? MR. SPEAKER : fhe han. the M'inister of Finance .

Dl~. KITCHEN: Ml". Speaker·, bE!fOI"E! thE! BudgE!t tAJas presented, han. ME:'rnbet"s oppos'.ite wet"E! announcing lAJhat lAJas going to be in it. rhey lAIE:~re WI"Ong. NotAl, they are attempting to stir up t:rc:Hnendous ·- MR. WINDSOR : (Inaudible) wrong about this one . DR. KITCHEN: I arn going t:o staternE!nts shortl.y . go'ing to rnake t-:.hem you, Sir. make I today. L'7 March 22, 1.990 these am not Thank Vol XLI MR. RIDEOUT : Mr . Speakor. MR . SPEAKER: Thr:1 hon. th.::~ l..eadE:!r' of t-:.he Oppos·:i.tion . MR. RIDEOUT : Let mE! .. r'E!ITI:i.ncl thE!

M:in'i.stel" of Finance that the Oppos'i.t-:..:i.on floated CE!I"tain ideas corn.i ng fi"OITI the Min'.isl-:.c:'l" and the:• Pt"l:>siciE!nt of Treasury of Board, and when we bl~~w the t"oast, thE! M'inist.<~l" put in Uds bungled, s Lupid t ax, Ml". Spc:~akc:1r. That is lAJha L happenod. It was brought :in wit-:.h no planning. rhe Minister does not know yet what this tax rneans. Now, let me ask the Minist-:.er th i s, Mr. SpeakE!r: It has bE~E!n a lAJeok since hE! bl''ought clown hts Budge t .

How can he expect Crown corporations, Memoria] University and anybody ,'.!J.~;l':! ·in l.hal:. caLE:'90I"Y out ther·e, hospi.ta l s, schooJ. boards, hanging uncle!" l~h~:! thr·oa t of this payl''o11 tax, to FinaJ.'.i ze thPir budgE! l~s, number one; and, nuiTibE~r two, hotAJ can Lhe M'.'i.n t s t el" project revenues wit-:.h any sense of fa:i.rness and accuracy lAJ~wn he clcH:•s not knotAJ YE!t tAJhoth'"'" hC::. is go·t11q to be:' able to t ax t:.he1n Ol" not.? Whr:11"''' ts l~hE~ Mtnist<~l" g1,!l~l:.inq his nurnber·s? SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: ~ he hon. the Minister oF Finance .

DR. l<l'fCHEN : Mr. Speake!", the 1evP]. of questioning From the Opposi t ion is get t t n q "' v E' r worse . I have answered these quest-:.ions t-:.hree tirnE:1s Jn a rotAJ. Yesl:l:!i"day, I sdid lAJe tAJerE! proj ec t.ing a $:1 f:) ITii.ll'.'i.on take From thts tax this current year, and that :i.s the f ii"ITI No. 8 R'l

figurE!. Next year, it will be $25 million. fhese figures are fi1~m. No one needs worry about that. fhey are as firm as anyone can make, and that is actually correct. I will be making a statement shortly as to the way it will be distributed. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker·. MR. SPEAKER: 'fli-(! "'""il'o-n'~""""" :tii e M em b e I~ f 0 r s 'l: . M a r y I s ·- The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A FoiAJ days ago, bE!fOI"e he r<~al'ized th«::~ rness he IAJas in, thE! Minister did admit that the tax would apply to food products beoing trucked into L:he Pl"ovince, they IAJould appJ.y at t:hE!

IAJholesaJ.e level and they would apply at the retail level. Indeed, he said yes in answer l.o my questions. We also have an indication that it will be applied to light bi1ls, cable bills and other consumer goods. I ask the Minister then, has the Minister calculated the cost to l:he ave1"age NelAJFound1and fami.J.y oF this regressive, sneaky and decept.ive tax? MR. SPEAKEI~: The han. the M:l.nistE•r of FinanC(! . DR. KITCHEN: Two points, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make. When the crowd Opposite were there, there was no trouble to knOIAJ what thE!Y did. l'hey raised the sales tax frorn 10 per cent to 12 P•?.r c•:!nt.

That. is IAJhat they did, and t:hr:'rE!by took $90 rrd.JJ.:l.on out of the people of this Prov:l.nce, directly on t:he people 1.8 March 22, 1990 Vo1 XLI of lhe ProvinCE!. On ever ·y dol1<:lr they spo:1nt, they had to pay an extl"a 2 per CE!nt. That is IAJhi:d .. they doid. This l.i.l:.t1e tax l:hal:. tAlE' put on, which will be J.ar·gE<ly recoverable frorn income tax, has very little, almost miniscule, impact on th•:! peopJ.e of t.h"l.s Province. It is no good for' thE!ITI to shout and bawl and make questions, thE! point is they cannot make something from what it is not.

Let me say something eJ.se with rE! s pE! ct to that Buclg E!t, Ml''. Speaker. My desk is piled high with letters of congratulations . fhe Premier has J.ett.E!I"S 011 Meech Lake, he correspondence, correspondence dwarfs correspondence MR. SPEAKER: has tremendous but my on LhE'! BuclqeL the Pn~11ri•:'r 1 s on ME!E!Ch Lake. The han. thu Melllbf:'r for St. Mary 1 s -·· The Capes. MR. HEARN: fhank you, Mr. Speaker . Let me say to thE~ l1on. Mird.stel" of Foinance that whatever money we took from the peopJe of Newfoundland t/Je took i.l:. up --fr·on l:. We did not SnE!ak around and pick it out of their back pockets.

Thr:! Mtnistel" has r'E!fUsE:!d t.o anSIAJC!I" the quE•stion, holAJ lfluch ·i,l- is goinq t:o cost the average Newfoundland family? because he does not knotAJ. He has aclnli t l':ed l':ha'L Lhe tax IAri] l bring in $15 million this year and $25 miJ.lton next year. We know it IAJi.11 bE• pass~'!d on to the C01111non consumer so I ask him, does he have any syrnpal':hy for thP aUN'dqe Newfouhdlancl FarnJ ly planning a budget on their rno:'ago:'r incornes, in thei.r OIAJn houses, in UHdr· CllAJn No. 8 "8

kitchE!nS? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. SpeakE:~r, the hon. Member said that when they taxed they taxed up-front. I guarantee you that when they spent they spent it up-front too, mostly on themselves. We have seen the travelling expenses, Mr. SpeakE:'In. Wr:~ have s~"en Lh•:=!m, have we not? Some of them spent $250,000 flicking around from here and there. Now, we are a frugal Government, we are cutting back and 1.1..1e lAJill continue to cut back.

When your buddies in OttatAJa take money fr·om the health care and post-secondary education systems, we lAJill recoup l:hat money and put J.t back in. That is tAJhat we are doing. MR. A. SNOW : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Just before recognizing the hon. the Member for Menikeh I would like to remind han. Members on both sides of the House that lAJhen a quesU .on is asked, it i.s asked For information and shoul.d not include information that is ch:~batable. And to hon. Minist:E:~rs, lAJhen they are anstAJering, they should anstAJer likewise, not tAJith itE!mS that are debatable, but answer the facts.

The han. the Member for Menihek. MR. A. SNOW : M r . S pea k e r , my ·q u 1::1 s t. i o n i s a 1 s o to the Minister of FinancE·, and it concer·ns something l:hat goes along the lines of previous questions, of tAJho is in and who is out. The mining industry is defini ·tE•ly in, iF you rnean included in the L9 MiH'Ch 22, 1990 Vol XLI taxation of the payroll probably computed to be about million or $2 million coming of the mining industry. tax, $1 .5 ou L We know who is out in We stern Labr·ador, Mr.

Speaker, and that is the people who were applying for a travel subsi dy program, a progl"arn that was instituted ttAJenty-four years ago, a progr·arn to h~:!lp alleviate the feeling of alienation that was developing between thE! Is1<3.ncl pOI"tion of tho Province and the Labl"ador pol"t."ion of the PlnovinCE!, a pr·o~~lnarn I be 1 iev ed war k ·~d, a prog r·arn UH?. people of Labrador believed worked . I want to ask the hon . Minister why this progt"aln tAJa ~; dis cont. in Ul:> d , and tAl h a t c r i t e t·· i a was used on which to base hi s dE•cision? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance . DR.

KIH.:HEN: Mr. SpE!aker, thr:>re :is no doubt. that somethings we looked· at in the Budget arE! going to be looked at as beoing hurtf11l to sollle people.,.. But lAJhE!n you br·ing in a Budget that is designed to pare expenses and to spend rnoney lAJisely, rnorll::lY l:.hat you h<w~' l:o r·aise taxes to t"E!Coup, rnorH:!y t.he Federal Government ois tAJoiLhdratAJ1ng frorn us, we have to b~~ VE•l"Y careful. A nurnbet" oF progr· atns were axed . There is no doub t i'l.bout it, lAJe axed those progl" cHns lAJe felt lAJerE! least. necessar·y, and that is why tAJe axed these proqr·a,ns . AN HON.

MEMBEr~ : What does the hon . Envir·onrnent (Min . about oit? MR . A. SNOW : the Minister of Kelland) t.h ink Mr. SpE!aker, I arn not sure I heat"d that. No. 8 f\ 9

MR. SPEAKER : Ordetn, please! I have not recognized the hon . Member. The hon . the Member for Menihek . .MR. A. SNOW: I arn not sure w~Hd :her I heard thE! Minister properly or not. Did the Ministc:~r suggE•s t that he c:.~t that program, he chopped t.hat program because it was the least necessary, he could Labrador? it lAJas the l~~ast thing cut from the people of AN HON. MEMBER : (InaLtdible) thE! Minish'r'' s salary, I would say. MR. A. SNOW: Well, Mt". SpE!aker, therE:~ are other things that could have been cut . Maybe some of the salaries that were given.

I wonder if the Minister could respond to another question? Exactly how much money did this Government save in one year by chopping this particular progr·atn? MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of FinancE· . DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I know it is no l: a large amount of money by comparison with some of the millions we haVE! spent. I might add, as I understand it, and I am subjec~ to correction by people who know these programs more appro p ria t E! ly than I - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Ordr~r, please! uo March 22, 1990 Vol XLI I have aljain noticr::!d han.

Members to 1ny d.ght constantly intE!tnfE!d .ng when a question is being answered. The Cha ir is having gr·eat difficulty 1isten"inq l":.o the ansll.Jer. I am ttnying t.o ltst.en Lo the answer so I can decidt '! if the• Minister is wasting the ttme of the House, but it is very difficult when MernbE·r·s constantJ.y keep interrupting Our Orders are clE!ar on t:hat . Nobody i.s suppoSE!cl to interrupt anoLher speaker. The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR. KITCHEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, th ere ar e programs in p1acr:> s U.ll, \3.

S I uncletnstancl it, by l..IJ~dch S CHliE:· residents of Labrador can be subsidiZE:'d, Ol" gE!t rnon(•.Y back frotn theitn inco1ne tax as a tnesu1t oF programs. It is not: as H t.hen! were no programs in pla ce. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Mernb~r for Menihek . MR. A. SNOW: I cannot believe it, Mr . ~1prc'akr :~r, that the Minister of fjnance of this Plnovince - I recognize that in last. year's Budg et he announced his dissatisfaction tAJil:h Lhe FederaJ. Government giving th e peoplrO! of Labradotn a tdx bE!neFi.t ..

He announced then, in tha L Buci<F' L, that he tJJas against i.t. lie is notJJ suggesting that because of the benefi l:. that tJJas confr:!t "t"r:.cl on residents of Labt"ad oJn, hE· is g oi n~J to take any tax benefit Fr ·orn Lh ern that was given by the Fede ral GOVE!rntnE!nt. You <:unr:' not: hoil .l:.ing the Federa1 Gouernmenl, you ar e hi l:ting l:he people of Labrado1n. My supplementary quest ion, Ml ". of Speaker, is to the Mini ster Wor ·ks, Ser·vicE! S (Mr. Cilber-t:) . fact tha t Lhis No. 8 and Tran sporta ti on In light: of Lhe program ha s been 1\10

cut and it suggestion, I media reports, can he outline the people of was cut? MR. SPEAKER: has been belieVE! of the to thr:1 Labrador at the through Minister, people to why this Th.::1 han. the M:i.nister of Works. Services and Transportation. Ml~. GILBEI~T : Mr. SpE!akel~. the pro~1ram t;.Jas cut as part oF thc:1 budgr:!t.ary process. As hon. ME!mbet"S knotAJ, thE! ProvinCE! had to br-:i.ng in a BLtdget and it was affected somewhat by conditions that. wel~e :imposc:1d upon us by the Federal Government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. GILBERT: Over the 1ast four years. Ml".

Speaker, something like $100 million in transfer payment has been cut from the Provincial Budget by Ottawa, so we had to look at the program and assess what was happening. And we saw what has happened since our Budget was brought down, the Prime Minister has been able to give $182 m'i.J.J:i.on to the Caribbean, yet tAle Find that in Nc'.!wfoundland the amount of money we have to operate, l:h1:! transFer paymenl:s, is continual1y cut from year to year. We al"E' the only Province=~ in Canada that had t:o SE!J.l a railway to try and get a road system built up. With had this program, Mr.

Speaker, we to look at the overall picture. Wh.::1n the BudgcO!t IAJas 1nadE! up WE! had to have rncHlE!Y for i·H:!alth care, education and economic development, and ~;.JiLh that. i.n mind, we had to cut. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Lll Mar'ch 22, 1990 VoJ. XLI Sit down! Sit down! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I want: to r"'ITrind hon. Mc''!lnbE!rs to my right that the Chair is not going to be int.imidal:ed. t:hc:1 Chair is going to J.isten to the anst;.JBl". And if han. Members will permit me to 1i.sten to the ansiAJE!rs, I IAJ:i .. ll ITiake Lhc::1 j udg"1rn~~n l:. on I;.Jhen l:he answer is finished. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, pJ.ease! I ask the han. the Minister of Works. Sel~vicE!S and Tl"anspol"tat.i.on to fintsh up, please, VE!l"Y quoi.ckly. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speakc:'r. l:he Mernb"1'~ as b~cl i'llE! IAJhy WE! cut thE! pr'O~JI"atn, and l arn trying to give the answer as ~o why the program was cut. MR. HODDER: He did not say Pl"ogr·aiTIS. he said that pl"ograrn. MR. GILBERT: Yes, and this i.s t;.Jhy I am b':'l1 inq him.

Be patient! 1 am saying that we had l:o cut:. l:he· progr'dln, and thE:' rE!ason was that. t.hei"E~ t;.Jas a n E! ,,, d t: o c a l" l" y o n t;.J·i l:. h L h e opE!ning of hospiLa1 bE!cls t.hal:. LhE! pr':'vious adntinisl:l"al~.ion ha.d cJ.osed, to hii"E! nurses IAJher·E· the other people had cut back. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : I again ask hon. MembE·l~s t.o p]ease r~?!ll'lain si1E!Ilt. rhe Speake!" knOIAJS when he i.s go'.i.ng to ask Uw hon. the Minister of Works, Services No. 8 ~~ 11.

and Transportation to sit down, and I want no pr·ornpting from either side of the House as to whon I am going to do it. I ask the hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to finish up in less than 50 seconds. ~R. GILBERT : Mr . SpE:~akE!r', this program was introduced in 1970 and we found it was used lE! s s and J.E! s s during the years. ThE!re tJJas a gradual reduction in thE! amount of use of this program. It aver ·a ged au l: at $46 per each appli~ation that came in last year, and it was felt tha ·t it tJJas not serving a usefuJ. purpose.

There is still a subsidy in plc:lCE• in Labrador· -·· the coast of Labrador - the Province is still maintaining a subsidy somewhere in the vicinity of $2 rni11i.on to pr·ovi.dE! air subsidy to the people of Labrador . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member For Menihek . MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, I wouJ.d ask the hon. Minister to table exactly where he got the figure of $46 as the average subsidy For a ticket corning out of Labrador. I would also suggest to him that while, indc ,~ed , yes, HwrE! is a subsidy on the coast of Labrador, you are taJking apples and oranges here.

I am asking about a subsidy for air farE!S back and fo1nth frorn thE! Labrador portion of the Province to the IsJ.and por·ti .on of the Province, not within Labrador. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBFRT : I will ~et that information and table it For the hon. Member. Ll2 Ma1nch 22, 1990 Vol XLl MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. thE! Memi :JE!r fo1" Bur:i.n Placr::~nt.:ia West. MR. TOB .. I~: Mr .

Speaker, let me say lo the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation t:he Facts cline that the Fed~:!l"al CovE•rnmE:•nt equalization increased this rnore to thE! payments have year by $27 million Province than Jas t year. and l:he Federa1 Covei"I11Tien l:.' s contribution to the Pl"ov.i nee th:i s year is $42 mil1ion over and above what thEdr contribu ti.on tAJas ] as t. year. Those are the Facts. Mr. SpeakE!r, that :i.s thr"! ti"ULh, that it not. lies. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let 111e say to the Mini ster of Fi.nance, we all recognize, Sir, Lha t you hc:we brought in the most devious document Lhat was ever delivered i 11 t h i s A S s E! 1T1 b 1 y . Y 0 U h a V 1:• confirmed that your evil - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Again, I was assuming that the h o n . M Eo! m b e r· h ad a q u E· s t i o n f o r· Uw Minister of Works, Services and TrcHlSPOI"tal:.:i.on. I have to ~;ay t.o the hon . Mernbr::~r Lhal:. we cannot allow that kind of Lhing. The hon.

Member tAJas as kinq a quest'ion of the Mini.ster of F:inance and is nol: per·rnitt(•d to 111akr::' a co1nment, in l.he fut.UI"~:!, on anoLhe1" Minister's answer. AN HON. MEMBER: H e c a n a s k a q u e s t i o n of h :i rr1 :i r· h c· tAJants to. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the M:ints LE!r' of F:i .nancE !. If Lhr:• ME!Iflber· lAJOU1d J.ikr::! L.o ask his question aqain. No. 8 lx 12

MR. TOBIN: Min. SpeakE!r, question t:.o FinancE:~, if I MR. SPEAKER : Yes . MR. TOBIN: I would like to ask a the Minister of may, Sir, please! Now, Sir, that you have giVE!n rrH:! permission to ask a question of the Minister of Finance, let me say that in this devJous and evil documE:~nt hE! introduced in Uw House of Assembly, he has confiri'TIE!d that hE• has app1iE!d thE! tax at least three times to t he grocery bill of the consumer in this Plnovince. He has not d1:~nied that it will be applied to the hydo and electricity bills in this Province, at least tJAJ:icE:~.

Let me ask the Minister if he will be honE:~st and truthful in the HouSE! and i f he t.~o.li 11 t e 11 u s i f i t lkl i 11 apply to municipalities which have a payroll of over $300,000? MR. SPEAKER: The · hon. the Minister of Finane~ . DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I will, as I saoid ear·lier, sE:~ventE!en times, make a complete sta'tr::~ment about all these matters in a short Lime. I might add, Min.

Speaker, just to refute wha t the Member has said, that amongst the letters I have received there was one yesterday tJJhich said, 1 I have b~C•r:!n t.~o.1atching provincial Budgets For fifty years, and this is the best one that has ever been presented. 1 MR. WINDSOR : You rnighl: be fooLing yourself, but you arE! not fooling anybody E!lSE!. Self praise is no praise. .t11L_SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin Placentia WE:~st. L13 Mar·ch 22, 1990 Vol XLI MR. TOBIN : Mr.

Speaker, I t.~o.Jould not suggE!St it is the best Budget that has been dr:~liven~cl in thE! past fifty years, bu·t it is th~;:~ most d~C!V.ious Budget that has ever been delivered in the life of this Assembly. Can the Minister of Finance assure municipalities which have a payroJ.l of ove1n $300,000 tha t . thE! budgets tJJhich they have subrn·.i.l:.l:.1:~d to tl'lE:' Depal"tmenl: of Mun:ictpaJ. Affai1ns, and hav1~ b1~1':!n appi"OVed, that y o u , S i r , no I" Uw Go v E! r nrn E'! n t wtl1 ask that any chang1:!s be llklde to them J"eJ.atE•d to the payl"o1J t.ax? MR. SIMMS : No answer? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Burin Placenl:.ia West. MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speaker, JAd.l.J. the Mini ste1" of Finance assure municipalities in this ProvincE• IAihich have a pay1"ol.J . in excess of $300,000 that the payroJ.l tax will not apply to the m? MR. MATTHEWS: Same answer. Ditto . MR. SPEAKER: ~ he hon. the Member For Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Ml". Speake I", in L.abrado1" l:hei"E• a I" I'.! three foreoign air Forces operattng, namely, the Ge1nrnan Ail" Force, the Dul:ch Air Foi"Ce and Lh1:! British Air For'CE!.

ThE'!ir' payl"o11 :in a year is in l: hE~ rni 11. oi on s oF dollars. I ask the Minister, alnE! lhey subject lo l:he payroll tax? MR. PA I~SONS : ........ _ .. ,,, __ ,,,,.,, _____ , __________ , __ __ _ No. 8 1n3

My, Mr. Speaker, this is terrible! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: fhe~n:--the Member for Torngat. Mountains. MR. WARI~EN: Mr. SpeakE!r, my question is to the Minister of Environment and Lands. the Labrador Minister in the Cabinet of this Government. Has thE:~ Minis lE!In obj r:~cted to this payro11 ·tax applying to the Gern·1an Air For·ce, the Dutch Air ForcE! and the British Air Force? And has the Minister had any input into this Budget that is going to cut. the people of Labrador right to th•?. core? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR.

KELLAND: I wi11 try to withstand that withering attack, Mr. Speaker. Any discussion I have as a Cabinet Minister is a matter of Cabinet confidentia1ity. I am sure, in his short-lived term as a Minister, the hon. Member knows that. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the ME!mber For St.. John's East Exter·n. t'IJL __ f:fr_R_§_Q_~ -~ : Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is also to the Minis l:er of FinanCE!. My prE!arnble is going to be VE!Iny short, 'and I am almost positive thE:~ Mtnis ter will answer. In his Budget, in Cu1turE!, Historic sites and Youth there is a shortfall of approximately $700,000.

Now. you 1.14- March 22. 1.990 Vol XL[ can look at the subheads. bu 1- I would like to ask thE! MinislE•r to tell this han. House where this shortfa11 is specifically. It is a reduct1on of cl.ose to $700,000 from last year. Would thE! Minster inform t~he House where it. is corning from? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh. oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. M~~ULLA§_f_: Mr. SpeakE!r. I can on1y take t:hE! qu.::~stion undE:!In advisr::•rnE:!nt. I arn no t. atAJ a 1~ e t~ hat s u c h a s hoI" L fa ll exists, but I wi.11 CE!rl:a1 nJ.y look into it:. and r.:?.porl: back l:o l:.i·H:­ House.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. th(• M•:!JTibl:!ln Fo1n ~3l : .. John 1 s East Extern. MR . PARSONS : Thank you, Min. SpeakE!r. My question notAl, then. is t.o thl:• Minister of Municipal. and Provincial Affai1ns. We knotAJ that two Directors, high ranking off .icials of Cul.ture and H:l.st.nr:ic sites, have left the err~loy oF GovelnnrTIE!n'l. and I lAJOUJcl like the"! Minister to tell this House. because of the imparlance of those posit.ions, if l:hE:' Minisl:.er has ti·H:o rno n e y in Uw B u clg e t f o I" t. hE! repl.acement of those two positions which were lost? MR .

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Munic ipal and Provincial AfFairs. MR. GUI LAGE: Mr. Speaker, there is only one position of which I am aware. [f there are two, I would l:i.ke to No . 8 1n4-

know where they are. However, there':! is only one position which is vacant. and we are awa-:i ting th~~ Arts Committee Study. which is due in rny office by -the end of this month, and that Study will make recommendations on an arts policy for the Province. The position to which he refers. Directo1~ of Cultural Affairs, will be filled after that study is examined by Government and we decide on the mandate of the various Arts and Culture Centl~es, and, in fact, decide on the recommendations of the Arts Study Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The han. l:he ME!ITibei~ fo1~ St. John 1 s East Extern. Half a minute. MR.

PARSONS: I would like to remind the Minister that there are two. There is one acting at the present time, but there are two, Histor·ic sites and Cultural Affairs. My final supplementary. Mr. Speakc:~r. , i s a g a ±·n to t he M i n i s t e r . Fro rn a n a1:..ticle . in last weekend 1 s paper. I am assuming that there is a conflict within the arts community as it pertains to monies being spent. I want to ask the Minister if there is a conflict, and would he explain to the House why l:herc~ is such a conflict? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GUI LAGE.: M1~. Sp~~a k E!l~.

I arn not al}.)arE! of' any conflict 1..11ithin l:he arts cornmunit:y as to how the rnoney is being spent. Nobody has phonc~d and nobody has IAWittE!n rrH'! cornpla:1ning about the arts money and how it is spE!nt, and how it is being ~isbursed within l:he various divisions of the Culture Department. IF the Member has any Llf:i Ma1~ch 22, 1990 Vo1 XLI concern. pE!dlaps he be knoiAJn. But :it conveyed to !TIE!. should Jet ·it has no l: be~~n MR. SPEAKER: Q u'es·t-fo_n ____ Pe-r i 0 d haS eX pi r e d , Notices of Motion PREMIER WEI IS: Mr . Speaker' . MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . s·OME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear. h~~ar! PREMIER WELLS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I give notice Lhc':J.t I t}.)i11 · on Lornorr'OIAJ ask leave to "introduce the following Resolution: WHEI~EAS by a Resolution datod thE! 7th clay of Ju1y, 1988 thr:• Hou~;e or- Assembly ~r the Province of NeiAJfoundlancl r'E~so1VE!cl that: an amendment to the Constitution of Canada be authortzc,!d LobE:! rnade by proclamation issuod by Her ExcE!llElncy the GoVE!rnol~ GerWI"al under the GJ"c~at ~3ea1 oF Canada in accoi~dancE• IAJ:ith anH:'ndrnE!nls set oul in the

schedule attached thereto: AND WJ-ILI~EAS this House doe~; noL_ agn~c:> l:hal:. Lhc:~ dlllencl1nent a u t h o ,~ i z f::' cl tAd 1 J. a c h :i e v E• :i. L s s t_ i"l t e d purpose of recognizing Lhe pr:i.ncipJE• of E!quality of a] I the provinces or providing new arrangements that wiJl f oster greater harmony and co - operation between the Government: of Canada and the governments of the provinces; AND

WHEREAS Province is No_ 8 the Government of concC:'I~rH:'d l:hat_ lh i s l:he r~ 1 1~

overall long-term effect of implementation of the said amendment will be to continue indefinitely the regional economic disparity that presently exists in Canada; AND

WHEREAS this House• shares those concerns and the grave concerns of certain pr·ovince•s and various interest groups and concerned citjzens that the authorized amendment may be interpre!ted to djminish guarante•ed In i g h t s u n d E! r l: he .~IJ2..!".-:t.~.r. _.~ __ L_...IL1..9 . .bt~ and Freedoms, to create a special legislative status for ana province, to reduce or erode effective national shared cost programs, to render effective Senate reform virtually impossible, and to inhibit the go v e ·r n me n t. s and l e g i s 1 a t u r e s of Canada from honouring the commitments to promote equal opportunities for the well-being of Canadians, to reduCE! dispar·ity in opportunities and to provide ~~·:ssential public servict~s of reasonable quality to all Canadians as set out in

section 36 (1) of the Constitution Act 1982; AND

WHEREAS

Section 46 (2) of the Constitution Act, 1982 specifically provides that a resolution of asst:'nt rnade fo1n l:he purposes of amending the Constitution oF Canada may br:! revoked at any time before the issue of a proclamation authorized by it;

NOW THEREFORE the House oF Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland pursuant to

Section 4-6(2) of th("! Constitution Act, li .. ?._?_ resolves that the "Resolution to authorize the arne!ndrnent to the Constitution of Canada adopted and approved on the· 7th day of JuJ.y, 1988, be and it is hereby revoked; Ll6 Mai"Ch 22, 1.990 Vol XLI AND the House of Assembly oF the Province of Newfoundland furt:her re!solves tha-t. an amendrn~-:~nt t.o Lhe Constitution of Canada be authoriz,:~d t.o be lll<'.ldt::• by proclamation issued by Hi s Excellency the Governor General under the Great SeaJ. of Canada tn accordance with the

schedule hereto either: upon approval amendment by a electors of Labrador in referendum; or of the majority of Newfoundland satd t: ht~ ancl a province -wide SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, ht::~ar! PREMIER WELLS : upon the approvaJ. of the said amendment by a majority of the electors of Canada tn a n a l: ion .. -t,~.ri dE!

I" 1:! fer E! n clu1 n , notwithstandtng that approval may have been rejt:!Cl:E!d in a prE•vious province -wide referendum; and the Speaker is hereby authorized, upon receipt by the Speaker of a cer·tif icalE• fr ort1 th E• official designated by t.he Lieutenant GOVE!rn or 'in Coun c:i 1, o1n the Governor General in Council, as the c<-.lSE! rnay be, con f inn:in~J that any such rt:>f E'rendum approvt::'d the• said arne!ndment by an ab soJ.ul:c'• rnajority of valid votes cas t:, to certify to His Exc(:!J.Jency Lhe Governor General aut:horization of the said amendment by this House; AND the Houst':! of Assembly ol l·:he Province of Newfouncllancl Further resolvt::>S to author·· .·i,z(~ and he1nuby aut.horj ZE!S the• L:i.t'Ut.E•nan t Covel"nOJ" in Counci .l to prov idE!

For such a province ---wide rE!f'erendurn, :i.f it. :i.s deemed necessary, and concluc L. l:.he sarne E•il:hE!In as a pJ.t:~biscJ.l.:E! uncle!" sectton 169 of the Election Act or in such othE'!r rrt<HHlE!I" and at. such No . 8 1n6

time as the Lieutenant Governor in Council shall prescribe. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! JVIR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Ml". Speaker, I tAJould like to takE! the opportunity today to give notice of a pro-Canadian resolution that I will introduce. SOME HON. MEMBERS: H. e a·r--;·-·~;-.;·a-rT _____ .. __ MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS the Province of Quebec was not a signatoi"Y to the patriaU.on of the Constitution in 1982; AND

WHEREAS the Meech Lake Constitutional Accord for the first time brought Quebec fully into the Canadian Constitutional process; AND

WHEREAS l:he full participation. of Quebec in Canadian constitutional refo1"rn is necessary before therE• can bE• arnE!r1drnents to the Constitution with respect to thE! fisheriE!S jud.sdicU.on and Senate l"efol"m; AND

WHEREAS ratification Constitutional 1990; Lhe deadline for Lake 23, of the ME!~~ c h Accord is June AND WHEI~EAS l:he House of of Newfoundland and ratified the Meech Constitutional Accord on 1_ 17 Mar·ch 22, 1990 Assembly Labrador lake July 7, Vol XI..I 1988; AND

WHEREAS the legislatures of New Brunswick and Manitoba have not yet ratified the Meech Lake Constitutional Accord; AND

WHEREAS thE• Govenunent of NE:'lAl Brunswick has introduced a resolution to ratify the Meech Lake Constitutional Accord in thEdr J.egisJ.atul"E:' tog~~thE!l" t~.rit:h a resolution to further anwnd the ConstituU.on; AND

WHEREAS undertaken by New Brunswick proposal which ratification of this initiative Lhe CoVE:'rnlfH:!nl: of­ is a const:ructive 111ay l1::•ad l:o Lhe thE! ME!E!Ch LakE:• Constil:utional Accol"d and 1nay allow for further constitutional l"efOI"ITIS; AND WHEI~EAS it ~is ~i.mpod:ant: th<.'tl no action be taken by any one jurisdiction to Foreclose the possibility of a successful conclusion to the process which is now undertAJay to salvagE! l:hE• M(~uch Lake Constitutional Accord; AND

WHEREAS any action taken by the GoVE!rnrnent o·f Nowfounc11ancl and l...abraclol" tAJhich wou]cl have t:hE• effect of resc:inding l:hE;! appl"oua1 by this Honourable House of the Meech Lake Constitutional Accord would be unhelpful in bring i ng about a successful conc1usion Lo the present constitutional reform process; now 1"1-1 E I~E FOI~ E l:l F 1 r· I~ ESOLV LD l:.ha l:. l:. hi. s HonourabJ.e HouSE! cornrnencl t.he Government oF N~-:.tAJ 13rtH1SIAJ-.i.ck fur its conciliatory approach to l:.he resolution or Lhe current: const:i.t:.utiona1 impasse; and 13E I I" FURTHER RE~301...Vt:D t:hat. t:.his Honourab1e Government Labrador No. 8 to House Ul"9(!

Lhe of Newfoundland Eo~nd adopt an E:•quaJly Rl'l

constructive and constitutional position with the Governments of the Governments of flexible and work Canada and the other provinces to brin~ Qut':~bec fu11y into the Canadian constitutional family; and BE If FURTHER RESOLVED that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador refrain From proceeding with a resolution which would have the effect of rescinding the api:Jrova1 by this Honourab1E! House of the Meech Lake Constitutional Accord. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. KELLAND : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Environment and lands. MR .

KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ThE:! HoUSE! may rE!CaJ.l that a fE!W days ago - tE!n days or so ago, I guess - we announced Bay ciLi - Nord and Middle Ridge wildernes s and wildlife reserve areas. At that t:irne, the han. the Member For St. John's East Extern, in his respon se, rais ed a couple of ques bans. I do not have prepar•:?d, typed anstJJers, but I can provide him with the information he requested at !-:hat tirne, if l:hat is appropriatE!, Mr . SpE!aker . The han. would be reserve. Avalon L18 ME:'tnber asked if a perrnit required to enter the As is the case tJJi l: h ·the WildE!rnE•ss RE!

ServE•, a March 22, 1')90 Vol XLI permit will be required. I did not have l:he opportunity to anstAJer H:. that day. MR. R. AYLWARD: Sharne! Shame! MR. KELLAND: The Member for Aylwat"

d) says, recall that the dE!SignatE!d administration, pE!l"mit is However, that :is Kilbr·icle (Mr. R. 'shame'. He w:i"JJ Avalon Reserve was under his and I believe a required there. a point. The details of the pE•nnit, Mr '. Speaker, are that they will be issued free. The acquisition w:i]] not be onerous 'in any tAJay, bt:!cause they can be issued for any periods up to six months, and thE! n! is no charge. The purpoSE ! of that, for the hon. M.::Hnbr:!r's inFotnrnal ·io n, is for the management and cont.t"o1 oF the reserve area. MR . R. AYLWARD: (Inaudible). MR. KELLAND: The han . thE!

Mernber for K:ilbh .de insists that it is WI"Ong. However, that is l:he rE!guJ.at.ion ·to be pa1nt of our' tnana0Jern.::'nL. plan, Mr. SpE!aker. In prov:iciJ.n~J t.hr::• information to l~he Mcc'tnber for ~3l:. John's East Extern, thE! pE•I"II'I:its will be required, they will be f r e e , the y tAJi 11 be i s s u e cl f o t·' pertods of up to six 111onl:.hs, dnd thE!Y wi.]l be avai.lab]e at ntany cornmuntties Vc?.J"Y close l:o Lh!;! Park, usually from Government offices I would l:h:ink. 13u L Lhosp details will be made public a liLtle lal:er on, as to tJJhE!I~,~ U1c:•y can be obta:i .nE!d. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . KELLAND : No . 8 Rl8

He also asked questions with respect: to .... Mr. Speaker, tJ..Jith due respE!Ct, I am trying to give answers to an hon. Member who raised somE! qUE!Stions a couple of days ago, and I have a couple of other hon. Members in the front benches there interrupting and preventing me from adequately responding to earlier questions, notably the Member for Kilbride and a couplE! of others, and I ask for Ol"dE!r. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. KELLA.ND: Mr. Speaker, he raised some questions on cabins.

There are some cabins in there in nonsensitive areas, which were thE!re bE!fOJ"e thE! declaration of a Pl"ovisiona1 l"eserve, and t:hey tAiill be a11ot..\H::1d to rEnnain. HowE:Wel", in the event that owners of those cabins wish to sell the cabins, t.he Government will b10:1 giVE!n the first opportunity to purchase those Pl"operti·es. I1legal cab'.ins wiJ.l be rE!ITIOVE!d from the rE!SE!rve, and there are some cabins that were given conditional permits. rhat was done by the former administration, by the way.

Conditional permits indicate that in the E!Vent Fu11 rE!SE!rve status is awarded to that area, the cabins w'.ill have to be removed and the ownE!rS - MR. TOBIN: Al"E! you supporting (inaudible) in Labrador? MR. KELLAND: I sugqest that thr:! han. thE! ME•rnber Fol" Bur.-in ·- Plac10:1nt:ia W1::-sl: at.~.Jail: an opportunity to stand in Quest'.ion PeJ"iod and ask qu1'1st:ions, as opposed to interi"Lipting, Mr. Speaker. Ll9 March 22, 1.990 Vol XU MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I ask the hon. Memb1:!'r to tab! his seat, please. Hon.

ME!ITJbE!rS, again, can see what happE•ns wh(;1n they keep interfering when a Minister· is anstAJering a question; it just delays the process. I say ·to the hon. Minister, as tAit"!ll, whE!n ansWE:1J"ing a Wt"i ttE!n qUE:!S lion the hon. Minis tel" should b(~ as briE!f as possible, becausE:1 the same rules apply to written questions as to oral questions. If it is to be a l.::!ngthy anstAJE!r, the Minister can do it under a Ministerial Statement. I ask th1:! Minisb:!l" to finish up, please. MR. KELLAND : I would just 1ikl:! to ment.ton that I was providing thE! anslAIE!r's undE!I~

Section (

e) on the Order Paper . That i s bas i c a 11 y i t lAJ i t h r (1 s p 1?. c t to t he cabins. The people who had the cohditional appr6vals were aware in advance t hat if f u11 reserve status was granted, they would have to rE!IfiOVE:' t:hEd.t~ cabins. I believe• t:hal: concludes that, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Orders of the Day MR. BAKER : Matton 2, Mr. Speaker . MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han . the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, there is a matter that has been f loat i ng now f or No. 8 1n 9

quite some number of days, the matter of the Report of the Committee on Broadcasting. I understood from rn1~dia reports, and so on, that the Chairman of the Committee, in tabling his report on behalf of the Committee, whenever it IAJas, a week or more ·ago now, did not actually make Uw normal concurrence motion that would go with that. I understand from reports that h1"! lAJas prepared to do it, and I thought h~~ was going to do it today. As an Opposition, we would like to get on with this issue and have the matb:~r debated.

In fac ·t, we are prepared to give leave to have the matter introduced today with limited debate, a couple of Members Five minutes each, or something likE! that, so we can get on t.~.Jith a1lowing the broadcasl:.ing of the Legislature, which we agreed l:o months ago, in fact al: the request of Your Honour. I believe you will recall Your Honour asked the caucus if we were agreeable to it. We agreed then. We advised the ParliamE!ntary Press Gall1:>ry that we tJJere agreeable to it and then there was a Cornrnittee.

The Cornrnitl:ee tneported quite sorne time ago, so we are quite prepared to give leave to at lE !ast allotJJ the motion to bE! introduced - that only takes thirty seconds - so that we can at .l~"'!as t haVE! the i l:.lo'm on l:hl?. Otnd!O~In Paper. There is no excuse for delay ·ing that. I wonder' iF l:he Government House Leader might be prepared to at least consider one, or both, of the r'E!qUE!Sts?

One, to giVE! them leave to put the motion that is required to gE!t it on the Order Paper, and two, if he is interested in wrapping up this matter quickly, we are quite prc"!pared t.o do it :i.n a rna'l'lE!r of rninub?.s. L20 March 22, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER : The hon . l:he Gover ntTII:;! n l:. House Leader. MR. BAKER : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I thank the hon. Member for his five or six ITI:i.nutE!S of grandstanding . AN HON. MEMBFR : If you do not tAJant to, say so, boy . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BAKER: I s a y t o h o n . Me m b e I" s , j, f i t tAl~:!

I" r::• simply eliciting information, the Member could have spokE!n to rriE' a half hour ago behtnd the curtain, or somewhere else. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. BAKER: Mr. SpeakE•r, vJhen l~hey t;.Jan t·. l:.o h~ar the answer I ~ill answer. MR . WINDSOR : That would be a nice change . MR. MATTHEWS : He is like a tea cher in schoo l, now. MR . BAKER : Ml"-·. ----sr.> ·E~·a-k E! r ' t. h E! I" E> p 0 I" t. h a ~; b (' (! n tabled. U: consisl:s or ~ fivP recommendat ions . The app ro priat e motion wa s not rn <:~d P at UH ?. t:.iiTie. 1 have asked th E! Co rn1n :i! .. t.ee Chairman to go back and lJ''!l:.

SOIIII?. more details on one of lhe recommendations, some backup information I thought would be useful to the House lAJhen the ddJate cerne s, and hE• has aqr'E•ed l:o do that. As fatn as I knotJJ, i.l- "is rE!ady now and tornorTOtAJ 1 c:wt assurrl"ing the appropr'iate rnol :.i on No . 8 R20

can b1':! made. There is no attempt to hide anything from the han. House. The han. House has the report from thE! . Cornrnit.tE!e, and that report will be brought forward as quickly as possible. The appropriate motion will be made very shortly . MR. SPEAKER: fh-·e-·-·-·h·o n·~··-·····- the Leader·. MR. SIMMS: Opposition House Not to belabour the po-.int, I understand you want more information, or whatever, and that could be addressed, so th1':! answer to the question of whether we give leave to pass it today is obviously no we cannot do that, because all the informat-.ion has not been received, as far as thE!

Government House Leader is conCE!rned. HolAJ about lE•tt.ing him make l:he motion, so that tAJe gEd: it on the 0J"cler Paper, at least so it. is on the Order Paper. The motion is a sirnpJ.e motion. It is not a big lengthy mot ton, it is a concuJ"rE:~nce rnoU.on as I understand it. ~. 3._: , ..... -~.P.-~ .. KIE : ThE! hon. The Gov e I" nrnE! nt House Leader. MR. BAKFR : Mr. Speaker, thE!I"E• is realJ.y no point oF order. The Opposition House Leader still thinks he is Gov,:>r·nment House Leader. The motion wiJ.l be made soon and I have alrr:'ady explain1':!d t:o the hon.

Mernbe1" Lo.Jhen this is possible. 1 would 1-.ike to refer Your Honour to thE! fact that the caJ.ling of thE! motion would I:H~ at:. the disCJ"etion of the Government House Leader anytAJay. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order . 1_21 MaJ"ch 22, 1990 Vol XLI On motion, itself into on Supply, Chair. t:hal: the House r<,solve CommitteE! of the WhoJ.E! Mr. Spr:~akE!r left:. l":h1'?. Committee of Supply 1':1JL... CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Snow). Order, please! Bi11 No. 24-. 'The hon. the Member for Moun t Pearl. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR : · Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

We had hoped to be finishr,~d tAr.ith Int,:H·-:Lrn Supply today. In fact I think the HousE:• Leadet"s had som1:! discuss ·ions along thE! linE•s of ciE!a1:i.ng w·ith l:he ba1ance of this. because what we are talking about really is. ~ portion, approximately ttAJE!n·ty --Fiv,:• per cent, or so the Ministers will have us believe. Certain Departments are fat" tnot"E! than l:wenty --Five per cr:~nl: of th~dr gross. But gE!nE=!ra11y speaki .ng U.JE! aJ"e looking at a portion of Lh1:! Budget t.o ~1r:'t us tlwow~h unt-:i] a Budget itself is approved, and sinCE! Lo.Je ar·e notAJ in a position to gel:. into l:hE!

Budgr:•t dobal:.e, one would nol"rnaJJ.y, and thE! Oppos·.it-.ion House LeadE•r has :Lndicat:ud l:.o l::he House that IAJe would be prc:!pat"E•cl l.o co --operate and lel:. Int:E!t":irn ~3upply go through and I think it was agre1':!d to 1<'!t i l: qo tht"ough today. The probJ.em tAJE! have, Mr·. Speaker, .i.s l:he fact Lhat for l:he Ud.rd clay :in a rotAJ, and~'\ t!.tr=•r:•k gone by since t h 1;! Budge l:. tAla s bJ"ought dotAJn, thE· M:i.n:i s t.er· of F-.inance is still, either not: Lo.d11i.n~1. or nol: ab1e, and I No. 8 I~ 21

suspect the latter, to tell us lAJhat this new payroll tax is a11 about . Now how can the Government expect this hon . House to give approval of a bill.ion dollars of expenditure, expenditure which is based upon ra1.sing rr-~VE!nues on a tax system lAJhich includes this new tax, this payroll tax on (Hnployers, when we do not have any inforrnatjon . How can han. Members of l~his House, on 1::-!ither· side, in justice, 1.n honesty, and in integrity support a Resolution to vote a biJJ.ion dol]ars of Interim Supply to thE! Government when the GovernmE!nt cannot teLL us the basis on which this tax is being appJ.ied.

ThE! Minister· of FinanCE! can make all the silly faces he wants. He doE: 'S not meet to because he is natural enough. Th1:>. pE!ople of this Province, Mr. Chairman, are not amused . The M1.nister 1 s performance in this House has been abysmal. He has not answerr-~d a quE~stion. We salAJ him sit there today, and outrightly refuse - I would say at l~::~ast twenty questions put to him. It was the same question dealing with various Crown Corporations and AgenciE!S. l.E!t mE! ask hirn another one. Is the Canadian RE!cl Cr·oss taxablE•, is thE! Hub taxable? ThE!

Mi.nistE•r madE! a gn~at ciE:'al in his Budget~ Speech of the fact that a rn:il.lion dollars is being given to the Hub, and I congratulate t:he Government for that. We welcome that. But is he taking money back on the other hand, is this a tax on disabled people, 'is it a tax on the Canadian Red Cross, is 1.t a tax on hospitals and schools? Mr . SpE!aker, WE! do not know! WE! havE· no idea who is br:~ing taxed.

Hot.u can this GouE•rnrnent ask today for this House to approve a billion dollars, giVE! thE•ITl a bJ.ank cheque, on tho strengl~h of a lil':tle piece L22 March 22, 1990 VoJ XLI of pap<::'r' that J.ists tota1 fi~~urE•s for Depatntrnents, no dE!tai.ls, wh'''n we know that lhere is a n10•w tax being imposed and t~.Je do not know who is being taxed. What Member can stand in his plac~~ and vote for such a proposition, Mr. Chairman. How can l~hc~y expl;!ct us to do that? The Government is refusing to giv~~ us the:: ~ answ1:!rs. And I would suggest to you, Mr.

Chairman, they are refusing because the Minister of Finance doe s not . kn ow. Bc:!cauSE ! hE! had bungJ.ed his Budget badly . And I wouJ.d sugges t to you, Mr. Chair·rnan, that I caughl ~ him in Lhe act t.-.tAJO weE!kS ago. ThE! M'Jnj ster · was proposing l~o j ul'llp on l:.he bdck of the Federal GovernrnE!nt, try J.ng to blame all of t:he probllo!I11S of thE• ProvinCE! on thE! Govr:!J "nmr::!nt of Canada. The Mernber for Mount Scio (Mt". Walsh) neE•d nol. lAiave hi s Finger. I can put my foot upon II'IY chair, but I do not cat~E! lAJhi;d .. the Chairman says.

There is noth ing in the RulE!S of Order that . says, 1 cannot put my foot upon the chair. AN HON . MEMBER: That is true! MR. WALSH: On a point of order, Mr. Chaoirman. ~..R. ... .:_ ... C H A I..R~ . .0.~. : The hon. the Memb c:•t' For Mounl ~ Scio ..... Bell IsJ.and. MR. WALSH : rhe only reason I would br ·inq Lhe subject up lAJas tha t "'n hon. Mernber on his ot..<Jn side coiTtpla·ined about it one day and th E• feE•loi n~l of Lhe House was that we should. rhe hon. Member for St. John 1 s East (Ms Duf-

f) thought. tt:. tAJas unparliamentary and I arn ju sL agreeing tAJith her comments . MR. WINDSOR : No. 8 1~2 2

To that Chairman. point: MR. CHAIRMAN: of orciE!r, Mr . The han. the Me~ber for Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR: ir·····-;;i"()"ur--··fro-nour wants to nl1e that it is unparliamentary then I obvious1y wou1d respect Your Honour. I am not atAJare of anything in any Stand-.ing OrdE!r Ol" ·.in Beauchesne that says I cannot do that if I choose, and I can po-.int to precedents in this House for the last fiftN~n years lAJhE!n I was here, particularly thE! for·mer Premier who was famous for his pose of standing in his place over t h ~~ r e wit. h his foot on thE! c h a ":i. r .

If Your Honour wants to l"Ul~'! against me, obvious1y I will abide by it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, it is unparJ.iarn~~ntary to do so. MR. TOBIN : . Pardon. t'IR. CHAIRMAN: The han . the Member for Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR : Thank you, Mr. Chairman . MR. TOBIN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Sir, I do not question you1" ruling, but could you give the House the Standing Orders or Beauchesne to sholAJ t.uhel"E' that is covered please? Could you refer it to us so that we could have it. MR. CHAIRMAN: I reserve the ruling and I will give you the sections later. L.23 Mai''Ch 22, 1990 VoJ. XLI MR. WINDSOR : Thank you, Mr.

Chairman . Your Honour "has indicated to my colleague:! that. you lAd11 give us a reference for that. And I i.'l.CCE•pt Yo u r 1-1 o n o u r ' s r u 1:i. n g . I a 111 n o t. going to lAJastt':! ttme tAiith this foolishness, I am after more important things here today. t he fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, as I tAJas saying t..<Je caught the Minister in the act. The Minister wanted to piggyback on the goods and services tax imposed by the Government of Canada. T hey figul"ed out w~~ can bJ.ame it all on the goods and s e r v i c e s t a x n o t.u .

W ~~ IAr.i. l l b ,~ o a d e n the tax base in NE!WfoundJand and Labrador. We tAJi.1l impose ret.ail sales tax on everything, a nice broad tax bas1:=!. We u..r"i 1.1 tax food. We lAlill tax clothi .nq. We wil1 tax Fuel o.i.l, and electricity. We will tax school books. We will tax everything. But lAJe caught hirri in the act~. and I· exposed him in my press confer'E!nce tt.uo tAJPE!I<s a~10, and he chickened out.

He Found out he could not get away with it. rhe fact of thlc~ rnaU:er is I LhE! point I madE• at !..hat. pl~e~;~; conference and I think il:. ·is now being bo1"ne out:., tJwr·e was a BudgE!"t lt~ak. rhE!l~e l/JCIS a Buclqe ~~ 1eclk and the Mtnist.er' had no choice, but:. to change l:.he Budget. And the M:l. ntstE•l~ had sa-:i.d that. t he:! Budget had bN!n Finish~:!d Pl"oi.or l:o that pi"E!SS confE•r'E!rlCI:! Ol" rnaybE! il:. lAJi.'IS the President oF rr·ea.SUI"Y Board (Mr. Baker) who sa":i.d tt. Somebody OVE!r tht:!l"e lAJas quo l:.ed as saying ' T he Budget has been completed.

The work is done. [t is just bein~J pr'".ill't.E•d not.u. ' Subsequent l~o l:hal: I E!Xpos,,.d l:he fa c t t hat Go v E:! I" n n 1 e n l:. tAl a s L o :i ITI p o s e a broad rE!tail salt:~s tax and L.here No. 8 IU3

was a Budget leak on it. had to change the Budget . hurriedly, Mr. Chairman, - AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. WINDSOR: I beg your pardon? DR. KITCHEN .: And they So they Some J.eak . up, boy! Your contact is drying MR. WINDSOR: ThE! hon. MinistE!r should not fool himself. Mr. Chairman. I tAiish the hon. Minister had a dollar for every phone call I have rec•:'!ived from pub1ic ser·vicE! telling ITIE! the things this Government is doing. I wish I had a doll.ar for eVE!ry public servant who has told me they have been directed to let the Minister know if anybody on this side calls them looking for information.

This Government is trying to muzzle the public servants of this Province. .r-1K :__W..hl_~.!::! : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island on a point of order. MR. WALSH: Mr. Chairman, my point of order is: For an hon. Member' of this House to stand up and actually say l:hat members of the civil se1~vice arE• wi11ing to ( 1) jeopardiZE! their jobs; (2) are willing to divulge to hirn confidential infor·mation oF eithE!r the Minisl:er or thE!

DepartrnE·nt, is slandE!rous. rhese people work For the civil service and they are not in a position to be able to def•::>nd themselves, and it is not right For an hon. Mernber to stand hE!rl~ in the House today and say that 1.2/1. March 22, 1990 Vol XLI people are willing oath of secrecy they order for him to points.· That is not civil service of this to break the have taken in gain Brownie right to the Province. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of ordetn, l:hE!rl~ is no point of order. The hon . the Member for Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, o1~de1~. to that point of MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order.

The hon. Member for Mount Paarl rnay continue. MR. WINDSOR: There is no point of order. you, Mr. Chairman. Let me a.d d r ~' s s some o F comments made by the gentJ.ernan, which I can do the rul.es of debatE! Fo1n the Speech and Interim Supply . !hank Lhe hon. under Budget The hon. genl:lE!Inan has just: admit'l:E!d that i.f a publ:i c sE•I"vant gives information to a Member from this sidE• of the House l .. hev ai~E! jeopardizing UH>.ir jobs. Lc; t·:. l:hal: be very clearly on the record. The hon. g.::;nl:lernan just said !":hal: .. AN HON. MEMBER : They would be breaking their rules of secrecy. MR .

WINDSOR: wE! -a r E!-r i()t tal k i n g a b o u t o a ·t. h o r secrecy. r: did nol:. say that: public ser·vants had ~r.ivcn n1E• confident.i.al infon11ation cov<?.red by thEd.r oath of SE!Crecy. I said I IAJ:ish l:h.:~ hon. M":i.nislE!r had a dollar for every time public No . 8 I~ 2 4-

servants called me and cornplainE!d about the way that this Government is handling the affairs of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, ~war! MR. WINDSOR: That is what I arn saying . Now, Mr. Chair·rnan, the fact of t:h~!! matter is, there was a Budget leak. The Minister had to change thE! Budget at the last moJTIE!nl and he carne in IAJith l:.his great. idea - we will put in a payrolJ. tax.

HE! tAJants to hide it under the guise of hE!alth and education in spite of the fact that the Government of Canada is providing this Government tAJith $27 million more this year in equaJ.ization payments l:han l:hey did last year, $43 million in total morE• cornJ.ng From the Government of Canada this year than last year. This whole Budget 5peE!Ch is all throughout blaming everything on the Government of Canada, not on the incompetence oF this GovernmE!nt which is the r·eal truth of the matter, Mr. Chairman. NolAJ the Minister camt:! in hur1niedly with this payro11 tax, and he announced it in his Budget SpE!ech.

The fact of the rnatt.E!r is that he did not know then what might be coVE!red and hE! does not know now. He does nol: know now, who i.s going to be t.axE•d. He dOE!S not know how it tAJill impact on Crown Corporati.ons or whi.ch one shouJ.d be cover~~d and which ones should be exempt. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The han. Member's time has elapsed . MR. WINDSOR: YF1ank you, Mr. Chai1nrnan . 1..25 March 22, 1990 Vol XLI MR.

CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize another speaker I refer to Beauchesne, page 99, subsection 332, 11 Whilt~ a dE!grt::~c:! of informality in debate may be encouraged, Members may not rest thEd.r fE•E!t on thEd.r chaii''S IAJhj }E! addressing the House. 11 MR. RIDEOUT: Is anybody over there going Lo say anything on the Interim Supply, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the LeaciE!In or;· l:.he Opposi.t.ion. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

Chairman, hE•re IAI(~ a1ne a Government with a $1 bil1ion lnE!quest befo1ne the LugislattH'e, thE! pE!OpJ.e's LegislattH'e, cl ~;1 bill ion request and l:hE!rC::• is not one over there who has the intestinal fortitude to get on t.hEd.r Feet, partic:u]alnly the Ministe1n of Finance. Not OnE! has the. gumption to gE!t on l:hei.r FE·E· t and tell the House why LhE•y need $1 biJ.lion. It is most discourteous if nothing else to the taxpi3.YE!Ins of UlE!

Prouince that l:he Minister of Finance would not get on his Feet, rebut tAJhat tAJas said by my colleague the Member For Mount Pearl and explain why he wants $1 billion. NOIAJ, Mr. Chail"ITlan, I spoke bl''ief-ly in l:his dE!bat.e :i.n l.he House C:'t feiAJ clays ago. [ satd to l::he Government House Leader ~ncl l.he President of r1neasury Boa1nd at that time that we were prepared as an Opposi t.ion to lt:!

L. l:ht:> Tn l:.(H'-Lrn SuppJ.y Bill go through with a reasonable amount oF clebal:e, rnaybe a day or l.wo or three or something of that nature prouided we were gE!'l:ting sorne ansWE:!r's from the GoVtO!rnrn1:!nt on lAJhat: they want:E•d l.:he money for. BE!CausE• 1 cl:.icl nol:. No. 8 I~ 2 1)

beJ.ieve, as Leader of the Opposttion, in terms of organiztng the tim~~ of the House, that it. was ttme wisely spent .to waste a lot of time on Interim Supply. I do not bE!liE!Ve deep down within me that it is wise to waste a lol~ of tiJT11::1 on IntE•rirn Supply. So we were prepared and we have been prepared and we still are prepared, tf the Minister is prepared to get out of his seat and give us some answers, wo are preparE!cl with a rE!asonab1E! amount of debate on Interim Supply to let this $1 billion request go through. But, Mr.

Chairman, what we are not prepar·,~d to do is to authorize $1. billion,- a quartE!r of the Budget, this $1 billion request for Interim Supply is about one quarter of the total Budget. ,8.!'l ...... !i.Q.~. ~--r:'!. E M.~..SB : It is a bit more than that . MR. RIDEOUT: That is right, it is a bit more than that, and WE! arE! not prE! pared to authorize that Mr. Chairman, when a full week after the Budget has been brought down IAii th thJ~ee days in a row of QuE:1stion Pe:1d.od, Mr. Chairman, thE! Ministe:~,~ of Finance still cannot tell this Hous~" who is in and who is out when it cornE!S to this new payroll tax.

Mr. Chairman, it. would be negli .gent for us to approve this $1 billion request if we do not have that:. baste inFoJ~rnation frorn the Minister . And why is the i.nfonnation so basic, Mr. Chairman? It. is basic because Lh1:! revenue and expenditure projections of Lhis Budg,:-t are nol~ worth thE! paper they arE! :Anni.t tE!n on unless the Minist1:!r of Financ1:! knows who is taxable and who is 1_26 March 22, 1990 Vol XLI not taxable on the payroll tax . The Mini.ster of Fi.nance, Min.

Chairman, is proposing to raise $16 million this YE!ar as a ,~E!SUJ.t of the new payroll tax, and h1-~ is proposing to rcdse a furtheJ~ $2~> million next year. Now, Mr. Chairman, i.f Memorial University of Newfoundland and Labrador is included as part of that payr'o11 tax, and the payroll oF the University, I believe, is about $120 rni1lion so I havl;'• b'~"'~n to1d, so, if the Univeln~d.ty, as cHI example, is included thE!n l:hat payroll tax wi.11 cos L the University about $1.8 million additiona1 dollars.

If' they aJ"E! includ,:>d, Mr. · Chairman, Lh,:• University wi11 havE• t.o Find that money somewhere. fhey will have to find it out of the present: operating grant that ·the Government giVE!S thE!ITI o1~ they wiJ.J have to increase sl~ .udE•nt t:uit.ion fE•es, which Uw GoVE!rnrnent sajcl _they were not going l:o do l:his year. There is only one other alternative, Mr. ChaiJnrnan, and that. i.s for the GovE•rnmC::!nt lo increase correspondingly "tts operating grant Lo lhe Universi.ty. That is l~h~:~ only othE!r aJ.ternati.ve.

ThE!J~e cH'~:! tl·w~:!e alternatives here. lhe Govt'l"l'llnent can tax thE•ITI, :in which case th~:· University has to find an extra $1.8 rn:i.llion. They can f:i.nd that. by raising tuition fees or Lhe Government can increase i.ts operat:ing grant l~o the UnivE·J~stty by $1. 8 rn:i11.ion so that it tAli ·1 1 balance out. NoJAJ, Mr. Cha ·irrnan, if lhE• Government has to increaSE! its operating grant. l·:o l:.h'~ u n i. v E! ,~ s i t y , t o s c h o o 1 b o <.H' d s , t. o N1?.wfoundland Hydro, to hospil~al corporati .ons, to rnunic:i.pal:i .tir:•s, then is .it not a Fail" qlH:>stion, Mr.

Chairlflan, and is :i.t not: f'a:i.r' to ~~Xpi:!Ct thE:' M:inistur oF F:l.nanc':! to have to E!Xplain l:.o th'i.s House No. 8 1~26

the integrity of the Budget docurn.::>nt he produu!d a week ago. If he has to increase his expenditure §o that those corporations, th~ university, hospitals, school boards, and so on, are given thE! E!Xtra rnonE•y thE!n the Minister 1 s expenditure projections arE! out of whack. On the other hand if his revenue projections are correct and accurate and he is not going to give that aclditionaJ. morwy to lhos~~ institutions that I mentioned then they are included in the tax. So, Mr .

Chairman, it cannot be both ways, and I tell the Minister now, we are not going to approve one quarter of his Budget, a $1 billion request, we arE! not going to approve it until the bitter end on 31 March when spending runs out, unless this Minister comes to this Hou s (' and te11s the P"='OplE! of this Province who is included in that payroll tax . It would be negligent for us to do so, · it would be irresponsible for us to do so, and we have no intention of doing it, Mr. Chairman, nonE! whatsoever.

At the beginning of this debate our intention was, within a rE!asonab1E! time, over l~wo or l:hree days, to let it go, but IAJE' cannot do it. I would be ashamed to walk around the Province having let $1 billion of this Budget go through without the Minister having to ansWE!r to the scrutiny of the elected representatives of the peopJ.e on this payroll tax. I would not be able to J.ook them in the face if I did not use every parliamentary trick at my disposaJ. to forCE! thE! Minister to ans!AJer. Mr. ChaiJ"rnan, I know the Minister is incompetent. I have seen that now in two Budgets. He is clearly incompetent.

I do not 1n1:•an l~hat in a pE•r'sonal IJJay but incompetent 1..27 Mar·ch 22, 1990 Vol XLI in hand1ing the fi scal aff ~att~s of t:he Pl"OV in ce. I k no!AJ he i. s incornpetE!nt but I cannot convinCE! myself thal the Minister of Finance would br ·ing :in a rH'!l.i.J tax and think in l~he back of his rnind that nobody in thE! Opposit:ion is going to ask ITII :' a question abou l~ it and have the answers ready . Do you know what I think happened, Mr. Chairman? · I b(:<li.E!VE! the'! Minister oF FinancE! got: over·cotr\1? with his own rhetoric on Budget Day. rhe Minisl:E!I" of Finance, believed himself. MR. R.

AYLWARD : And all the letters he was g~O!l ring. MR. RIDEOUf: Wit.h al] the,, J.et.L(:'I"S hE• l.i.J<:1S getting we are soon gotng l~o have to go down and shovel him out from under t: he snow o ·f 1 <:! t t e I" s . I believe that he rea11y got convinced by his own rhetoric that the people were going to Jove this Budget and that the Opposition were not goi.ng to be abJ.e to find anything in the budget to ZI:!I"O in on. He IAJas not going to haVE! to answer any penetrating questions, like who is in and who is out.

He IJJa s not goi nq to have l:o do that because we were aJ.l going lo be floored over hE!re, our thumb L1..Jas going to be in our mouth and !AlP were going l~o be 'lc•H: IJJithoul: a IAJord to say. · That. Minj s t:E'r', Ml". Chairman, is not pl"epared. Imagine onE· weE!k aFl:E!r' t.he BudgE>t, three days into Question Period, and he cannol confil"rTI IAJhetheJ" t.he Univ1:arsity ts in or out. H1:! cannot conFirm whether rnunicipa1i ties aJ"O tn Ol" out.

H1:> cannot confil"rn IAJhet.hE•J" hosptta] corporations arE~ "in OJ" out. lh>. cannot do any of that, and yet. he has the gumption, Lho gall and l:he face of a robbE!r' 1 S horse to sH : there and ask us to give appro\Jal for $1 bilJ.:ion. Not on your life, No. 8 I~ 2 7

Sir. When you telJ . us, tell the people of this Province through the People's House who is going to be taxed. by this Goods and Services Tax then we will consider voting on your Interim Supply. I do not carE! if you have to send back payJ"oll cheques, if you have to teLl peopl~' who are on weJ.far·e to IJ.Jai t for theil" money, I cHl 'l not prepared to give you a cheque for a billion dollars until you answer those questions. We have every right, U11:> p~~ople have a right. I mean, thE!l"E! are peoplE! on social assistance in this Province, Mr.

Chairman, who, when they go to buy groce:!ries, ar·e going to bE! hit at 1 e as t t h r· e e t i 1n €:! s by t h :i. s tax thE! Minister is bringing in . AN HON. MEMBER : That is not so . MR. RIDFOUT: It is so! It is so, Mr. Chairman. The trucking firm lAiill bring the box of groceries into the Province and the labour for that will be taxed at 1.5 per cent. The wholesaler will distribute it, and the :;! labour fol" that will be tax ed at 1.5 per cent. rhat mab~s 3 per cent, Mr. Chairman.

Th€~ reta:i1ers, Dominion StOJ"e:>s , Sobeys. somebody else, will sell it, and the labour on that will be taxed at 1.5 per cent . That makes 4.5 pe r ~ent that Lld.ll go on grocer:i .es in l:.his PlnovinCE! as a l"esult of that tax. He shouJ.d hang his head in sham~:!! .P~ ... ;. __ .!$JT£ .1.i.E N : It is not so. MR. RIDEOUT: It is so! It is so! DR. KITCHEN: No, it : is not . MR. RIDEOUT: 1.28 March 22, 1')90 Vol XLI Well, you get up and prov e it ts not so. because that is your· job, Sir! You gE!t up and pi"OVE! H:. is not so, because l:hat "is lAJhal:: you are being paid for. Get up and prove it!

Get up and provt '~ t t.! Stand up for a change. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member's time has elapsed . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN: rhe hon. the Minis tel" of H(•alth . SOME HON. MEMBFRS : Oh, oh! MR. DECKER : Mr. Chairman. I haue a lot . oF pity for Members of the Oppo si. tion :i.n l:he House in the:- 1ast fe::'IAJ lAJeeks. They ar'E' unfortunatE! E:!nough to bE:• caught tAiith th~~ har·cle::-s l".: job that exists in Newfoundland and Labrador today. They have it before them. When we were over there and l::he Budge·t carne dolAJn, Mr.

Chair· 1nan, lAJe:> had the ea sie st job in NelAJfoundland and Labrado1" . But those han. ME:!rnbE•I"S in thC::• Opposition. and I p1ty l:hern, a1"e confronted wtth Lhe bes t Budget: that has been presented in l:.h1s House in the la sl:. sevent een or ~~ighl".:e:~en year·s. rhc::~y dl"e confronted with one of the bes L BudgE!tS t:hal: hav~' beE!n pi"OS(!nl·.od in the history of NclAJfound1and and Labrador.

NolAJ, hoL\ J in the na1n e of goodness can they fulfi1l l:he ir duti~:!S as people lAJho dl"e suppose:'d to criticize when Lhey are c;-!Xpecb~d to critic ize so 111ethJng which is pE•rfect? ·rh ey ar E:! t.rying to criticize someth ing wh ich is perfect. It is their' job 1-:.o criticize, but what a difficult task it is, Mr· . Chairman! I No. 8 R28

certainly pity them and I certainly can sympathize with them . That explains why thE! ME:'mber fol" St. John's East (Ms Duff) has not be~;:~n able to stand in her plaCE! once during the time this House has bE!en opE!n - and it has beE!n open nearly a month -- and ask one single question about the health care system in th'.is Pl"ovince, Mr. Chairman. Ther'E! is nothing in this Budget t.-.hat she can criticize wit·. h a c 1 E' C:oll" cons d. en c E! . I pity l:he hon.

Member, because she has one of the hardest jobs of any person in Newfoundland and Labrador today, to criticizE~ a Budget which, from a health perspective, is perfect. I certa:i.nly pt ty that poor hon. tAJoman. In this Budget, Mr. Chairman, we have SE:H':!n H1:>alth picked fl"Om the depths to which the previous Admin'.istration allowed it to go and put upon the pedestal on which · .i:t belongs. LEd: us look at the health · carE! system in NE!Wfoundlancl and Labrador. Just look at lAJhat happened to it in the last seventeen yE~ars; l.ook al: lAJhat happened to it in the last ten years, under the previous Premier.

It was totally, absolutely neglected. Han. Members should realize that thE!I"e tAJas a l·:hrE•e yea!" f'I"E:~eze placed on the consti"Uction of hospitals, nursing homes, and personal carE:~ homes in the Ci t.y of St. John's. Not a nail was di"iven, I te].l l:hcc~ han. Member, not a b-.it: oF maintenancr::! IAJas done. The whole system was allou.Jed to FaLl. dotAJn around ·Uwir ea1"s. That is tAJhat they allot.~.Jed to happen t:o the health caJ"e sysb~1n in N1:>wfoundland and L.abJ"acloi" ovel" thE! past tE•n yea1"s, and they are calling on us to L.29 MaJ"Ch 22, 1990 Vol XLI solve it all in six months, Mr .

Chairman. MR. TOBIN : What about Burin? MR. DECKER: What about Burin, lhE! hon. MernbE!I" is thE! Burin Pen'.insula. hospitals - what was call them? - two dying hospit.als. MR. TOBIN: Ml". Cha:i.I"ITJan? tal. king about WE:! took t.lAJO ll'. l/JI~ US(!cl to 1 :i. t. t 1 E! , s rr1 a 1 1 Tu.Jo cot t agE• hosp:itals. MR. DECKER: TlAJo cottage hosp:i tal.s, an icl1:=!a that existed in ano t her century, another generation. And we E!Xpancle•cl on the'.ii" 1nanclate. A cottage hospital '.is a place, Mr. Chairman, · tAJhei"E• you put s:i_ck people.

We have replaced l:.hal:. notJJ with a community health care sysl:ern which does nol> only ci(~al with sick people - MR. MATTHEWS: When? When? When? MR. DECKER: -· i.t. ciE:'aJs lAJ:.i.t.h COI'I'Ii'lll.ll'l'ity hE!<Ot] t h, it cl1'~al lAJith an OutJ"each Pl"OgJ"drn, it deals with prevent:i.on oF sickness, Mr. Cha:innan. W<;! hi:'tVf~ taken that concept, an outdated, out rno cl ~~ d con c E! p t , and IJJe have breathE•cl nE:!lAI 1:i.fe in to -:i.t, tAlE' have bought it. int.o l:.he LtAJent'iel:.h century, and tAle havE• pi"E•pai"E•cl -:i.l':. For the twenty-first: century.

T h at i. s tAl h a t h a s h a p p e n E! cl l .. o h.::~alt:h caJ"e in thE! rnal-:l:1:'1" of l.. h•:=! Few months we have been in o F f i c e . We h a v '"' h C\ cl l: o cl o a 1 u.ri l: h a system the previous adn1i ni s t ra l:. ion a 11otAI<:>cl Lo fa 1.1 to thE! gr·ound with neglect, and -.i.n a matter of a few months we have tu r·nE!d ·.i. t. a I"OU ncl; tAle have s to pp eel the decent, and now we are No. 8 1~29

beginning to put it back on the track where it belongs. In this Budget, Mr .. Chairman - MR. TOBIN: You are still in the (inaudible) . MR. OECKFR: Look, every timE~ I go thr·ough the door I meet tJJith people who say. Boy. you fE!llows have sure done a lot For health. What have we done fat" heaJ.th? As a rE!SUlt of this Budget, fifteen beds will be opE~ ned at the GE!neraJ. Hospital for the first t:irne in the history of Net.~.rFoundland and Labrador. fiftE!~~n beds which were never open before. That is what we have done.

I get so excited, if it were allowed I would stand up on my desk and I would shout it, Mr: · Chairman. But you have already ruled that it is not proper to stand on furniture, therefore, I cannot do it. Fifteen bE!dS which were never open before in the histot"Y of this Province. It is hard to believe. I do not get. into poli.tics. Mr.

Chairman, I do not waste time on that foolishness, but the small 1 liberalness, the liberal mindednE!SS of !::hE~ hon. the Minister of Finance was not satisfied ·to see the hE!alth carE! system being neglected as it lAJas, and he made available the money so that lJ..Je couJ.d open, fot" the foit"sl~. toime - do not Forget that - not in sevenLeen years, but for thE• first time in the history of Newfoundland and Labrador, these beds. Mr. Chairman, one of the problems whtch E!Xis ted in this ProvinCE! as a result of the neglect by the previous Aclrninis tratton lJ..Jas thE! problem with cardiac surgery.

There was a lineup. We need to do L30 March 22, 1990 Vol XLI about 350 major heart operations a year in this Province, but. becauSE! of the neglect of the previous Administration, we were only doing 250 a year. That is why so tnany people were writing me about their father. or their mother. or· thEdr brother Ol" their sistE•l" who cou1d 11ot gE•t. in to have surgE!I"Y, the roorn lJ..Jas not therE!. A bottleneck had been created, and Lhe SlH'glwns had no operating rooms tn which Lo perfot"tn l:h(.;! stH'gE~ry, no int.:::!ns:ive care units in whtch to put the people after they came ouL of surgery.

What cl:id rny ·FriNlcl c:,1ncl colJ.eague the hon. the Mints tel~ of Finance do? HE~ rnadE~ avaoilab1r::! ·.:i.n this Budget, Mr. Cha·."i.t"rnan, rnonC:'Y so that:. lAJC:' could opE•n a net.~.J intensive care unit, rnoney so that: we could opE!n up a nE•w opet~at:i.w~ room at the General Hospital., l:.he first tirn"'~ in l:.hE• h:i.sl·:ory of Newfoundland and Labraclot~ tAlE! have opE!nE!d up this nE!lAJ in t:E!nsoi ve CiH'e unit, and t.~.Je are abou 1:: to open up this m~w 0. R. so that lAJe can attack the pt"obl.etn of card 'iac surgery in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Is that not something to shout about? Is that not sontethin~~ which is difficult for the han. ME!lTibE!l" fo1" St. John 1 s E.as t l:.o criticize? I pity Lhe han. Member . I know why she is not asking me qUE!Stions. She does not t.uant to ernbal"r 'as s hE:! I" ot;.Jn co.ll~;!agues be:>caus1::! of l:hE! neql.ec-t they perpetrated upon the health care system of Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr . Cha:irlTlan. -,hat is why I pity the Member. Mr·. Chc:d.t"lrlan, one of l::l·w rnaj OJ" prob1em~; WE! have:> in Nc:>wFound1and and Labraclol" has t:o do with cancer.

Cance:'r' ts a tnajor d:isc~as1? in th:i.s Pt"ovinC('!, and -:i.t has pl"obably l:ouchl''d evE•l"Y l'tlan, t;.Jornan and chil.d, either through a No. 8 IDO

relative, a friend, a mother or father, whatever the case might be. One ·of the rnost important capital projects in the · Department of H~':!alth' s budget, my D.:~part:ment of Health, one of ti·H~ most important things is funding to begin the construcU.on of facilitir:~s for the Newfoundland Cancer Treatment and Resea1nch Foundation. For year·s a group of volunb:>etns have givE:~n of their time day after day, month aftel" month, y(,~ar afte1n year. They lobbied the previous Administration and sa:i.d, 'Look, 1.1..1e do not haVE! enough room dotJ..m hE!re to put our equipment.

We cannot meet the nr:~eds of our fe11otJ..J Newfoundlanders and Labtnaclotnians.' What did thE• p1nevious Administration do? They put a freeze on the bui1cling of netJ..J hospitals, they put a fre,:~ze on E!Xpansion, thE:~Y put a ftneezr:~ on construction. But: 1.uhat. did my 1iberal-minded colJ.eague, thE! han. t:he Ministe1n of Finance, do? He said this is not good enough.

WE! are not going to allow it to exist for another· singJ.e st:'cond in t.his Plnovinu,~; we arE~ not going to allow it to go on, and he made avai.labl~':! in th.is Budget $5.4 rni1Jion to put an extension on the General Hosp.ital so that we can have a place for cancer t.rE!atment .in t:.his Ptnovince. Is l:.hat not a Budget? Is it any wonder the han. the Mernbe1n fol" St. John's East has not had 1":11E! guts to qet up on hE!r f,::Of:'t. and ask one single question? She knew what (inaudib1e). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member's time has elapsed . MR. DECKER: I pity her.

I pity the hon. t.UOITian, because I beLieve sh1=~ .is a decent hon. Member. Thank you. MR. SPEAKE!~ : L31 Mat"Ch 22, 1990 Vol XLI The hon. the Member for LaPoile . MR. WINDSOR: On a Chairman. and fot"th. po:i.nt We MR. MATTHEWS: of a1tAJays I-l-·rri.ea·ii-;····-r-··a·m u p he I"(:~ ' MR. f~AMSAY : You had ttAJo over there . MR. MATTHEWS: Oi"deln, ~JO Ol"lE! Min • back Yes, but you cl:i.cl not ~Jet up. No one over there did. MR. WINDSOR : If you haVE! nobody on that. .is your plnobl'=~m. on one, Mr. Chairman . MR . MATTHEWS: I tAJas up, Mr. Chairman . MR. CH8IRMAN : thE:'iln feE! L, It is onE!

The hon. the Member for LaPoile . MR. MATTHEW~>: A poin·t oF order, Mr. Chaii"I Ttan. I tJ..Jas up J.on~J befoi"E:! th~:! hon . gentleman. He just Finished. MR. WINDSOR : It is l:he fi.r·st Li.me I have euet" st:~~:>n that. !:'I..JL_ I'1ATTHEWS: I rnean, thE! tiiTI~'! beforE! no spuaket" from l:he other side rose to be recogn"izecl. NOlJ..J, I lJ..JdS on nly r(::•ct:. beFo1ne t:.his Mernb,?.r, and it. ·is Jny right to be recoqnized . MR. TOBIN : I saw the deed being clone while he was speaking. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Mernber Fol" LaPoi.le . MR. WINDSOR : Oh, i"1r. Chail"lllan. We havE! to No. 8 R 3 :1.

(inaudible). MR. MAfTHEWS: Mr. Chairman, we . might as well give this up here if this is what. is going on. We saw enough of it yesterday tAr.ith Speaker oF the House. and now you as Chairman. I think it is time to give this up and close it down. MR. WINDSOR: This is disgraceful . MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the hon. the Member for LaPoile. .f:1N .... ...tLQN ... :.-..... _MIM..~-~ ~ : Come on! Let us challenge the ruling. MR. TOBIN: Yes, chal1C::1nge l:he lnu1ing . MR. SIMMS: A point of privilege, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: fhe hon. the Opposition House Leader, on a point of privilege. filR. SIMMS: Mr.

Chairman, I think the hon. the Member for Grand Bank - MR. CHAIRMAN : We cannot hear a point of privi .1ege in Cotfllni t tee . MR. SIMMS : Par·don me? MR . CHAIRMAN: y--s-a·rcr~-·-· ;:i-i1 (Te r· 0 u r r u 1 (;~ s wE! c a n n 0 t h1::•ar a point~ oF privilE!gr:1 in l:he Cormn:ittE!E!. MR. SIMMS : We ll , a point of order then . MR. CHAIRMAN : Okay, a point: of order . L32 March 22, 1')90 Vo1 XLI MR. SIMMS: I think thE! hon. ME:!rnbC::~r For' Grand Bank has a very legitimate and valid point. Your Honour might tJ.Jant to reconsider thts For just a moment, because it i.s a VE!ry serious and dangerous precendent.

The precendent in our House and the tradttions has been tha~ tf ttJ.Jo Members stand, thr:!n ME!TIIbE!r's are recogntzed alternattvely. Now, the last speaket" lAJ(:lS Mernbet" on t~he other s-.i.dE:! oF the House, and by practice and t1nadit.ion always, iF t.wo ME!ITibl:!lns s l:.a nd from both sides, then the Member a1ternate on the other side always gE!tS rE!COgnizr:!cl. I hom•stJ.y believe this is a very serious precendE!nl if Your Honou1~ ins:ist.s on it . I think Your Honour t.~.Jo u 1 d bE! bE•tl:E!r SE!rved, in fact l t.h:i.nk the Member For LaPo-.i.le (Mr. Ramsay) IJ.Jou1d beU:.er sei"UE:!

His Honour', in sav ·ing h·irn ftno1n a potential embarrassment, by sirnpJ.y saying hE:~ is prepared to IAJdtt until the nE!Xt tiiTIE:!. It is on] y ten minutes or sornE!Lh"ing "like that. I think it IJ..JOUlcl be b(:!tl:.r::•l" l:o get ou ·t of t t t:ha l:. IJ.Jay, becauSE! I am quite - MR. RAMSAY: If you would consult with t:.he Clerks on it and t:hal~ .i.s Llw precedent, I lJ..Jould haVE ! no prob] E•rn in allot ... ring t:ho hon. Me11ii:J1:'r Opposite to continue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Member For Grand Bank . Mf~. MAT"TH EW~i: fhank you, Mr . Chairman .

I would l:i.ke to thi:lnk l:he hon. the Member For LaPoile for yielding and giving lfiE' rny l"ig htFuJ No. 8 1n2

opportunity. Having stood in my place before the Minister of Health had taken his seat -- you had called him tq order because his ti.rne has ~~xpired -· I arn not receiving any favor here, I am only getting what is rightfully mine. MR. TOBIN: Justice. MR. MATTHEWS: Yr~ .s. justice. No fairness o1n balance, just justice. What WE! have SE!en from this Minister of Finance and this Budget is anything but fairness, it is imbalance, tot.al imbalance.

If WE! could only gE!t some answer's from the Minister of Finance we would probably all be a little m o 1n·E! . c or dial .' A n d l h e d e c o rum o f this House would probably be lifb;!d a bit if only thE! Minister· of Finance was familiar enough 1.1.Jit:h the document he brought in a u..Jeek ago to be able to give somE! answers to the questions which have been asked, particularly abo ·u t the 1 . S p e r c e n t pay r o Ll tax; to whom it applies and to whorn it does not, u..Jhether· he is go:i.ng to l::ake thE! tax or give it back. and all this stuff.

These arE~ thE! anst.~.Jer·s tAJe arE! looking to get from the Minister of Finance. MR. R. AYLWARD: .H.ow··--c-a--n ··-··h E··-s-e- so he is afraid to on it? MR. MATTf·l EWS: proud of it when answer questions Yes, he is proud of it. I t.~.Jould likE! to respond, Mr. Chairman, to sornE' of thE! comments made by the Minister of Health, particularJ.y about heaJ.th care on the Burin Peninsula .

L..33 March 22, 1990 Vol XU NotAl pE·r·haps this MJ.rdst(:'r had sontE! input inl:o the Budget, but. he '.is thE! o n 1 y M i n i s t e r I k no tAl of y ('!l:: who can close down fifty beds, open FifteE~n bE!dS, and say h~:! opened rnore beds than were open before. N01.1.J that sort of tiE:!S j.n tAJith the logic oF the Minister of Finance and his BudgPt. He c1oSE!d fifty :in St. LatAJrE:'nce and Gr<'tnd Bank, opened Fifteen at Salt Pond, and says he opE!ned rnorE! bods Lhan he closed. I cannot understand that.

I have nol:. br:!en intt"oduced to nE!lJ..J rnat.h, I do not: Lhink it has anything to do with the metric system, it has to do only u..J:i.th thE:! Minister of Health. As a rnatb:,~r ol' Fact, Mr . Chairrnan, when you look across l:.h:i.s Provj nu ! there atne less beds opE!n Loclay in this Province than when t.h:i.s Minister oF Health and this Government carne to power - less beds open in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: - ·-· He•ar. heal"! MR. M'ATTHEWS: NotAl, I want l:o get spE!CiFi.c about the Burin Peninsu1a. Fi fty closed, fifteen opened, leaves t:hirty--f'i.VE! clo se d.

That :is the sit.uation on Lh(~ But"in PE!n:i.nsul.a . In- .. ·pat.ient ser·uiCE!S at Ct"ancl E~ank and St. Lawrr:•ncr? cloSE!d in 1as l year's Budget Speech. lhey got thr=>. netAJS, Mr. Chair·rnan, LhE! Sdtne way as l:.hE• Ombudstnan go l.. l:.he llE!lAJS abo u t. hi s b '" i n g e 1 .i. rn :i. n a l:. e d . i. n a Budget SpE!E~ch; no courlE!SY ca]]s to the l~':!adr:'rs of the cotllllltHt.i.l "'ies, no courtesy calls to l:.he employees. That is how it. was donE!. Nou..J let ITIE! jus l:. say Hd s to lh( c! Minister of Healt:h: We haVE! seen in this Budget, this yeaJ", monE•y for planning For forty beds for St.

Lat.~.wence for sotne 1E•ve1 of No. 8 1~33

car·e; I do not knotAJ thE~ speci.ftcs or~ t:he lev~:>l of ce:u~e, whether· it: is one, two, thr·ee or a combination, and a nev..J clinic for Grand Bank l:o houi;e the services now offered al: the Grand Bank Hospital, the clinic services. Whe !:her or not l: here wi 11 be n etAJ lab and x-ray equipment and all this stuff, tAle do not know. Wh~Hl there will be money provided to actuaJ.ly begin construction, lAJO do not know. They think they have satisfied the people of ·the Burin Peninsula by Si:lying 'money for pl.anning'.

We11, they havE~ not satisfiE!d the pE•ople of Lhe Bur·in Peninsu1a by announcing money for planning, because people want to SE!e construe l:ion begin, l:hey tJJant. to know what they are about to receive. Let rne just t.e11 t:hc:1 Minister·, as it pE!rtains to hea1 th care bE!'ing offered down there now, that I can go on with a list of problems being experienced because of the shutdown of in-patient SE!rvices at Gr·and Bank and St. Lav..Jrence, and what is being offered at Salt Pond. I knotJJ of people tJJho have been SE!nt Lo the SaJt 'Pond Hospital and have been SE!nt back home.

I know there have been calls made to the Grand Bank and thE! St. LauJrE•ncE! Hospitals saying do not send any more patients over to us . I know of pE!Ople who havE· gone down there in need of surgery who have not been admitted. I know of a case, just·: in the 1asl: . week or two, where a woman was admitted For surgery and was operated on. The day after r e c r:-i v "L n g sur g ::-r y she v..Ja s takE! n to use thE! bathroom ·Fac:i1i .t:ies, and whr:!n she carne back theine IAJas someone else in her bed.

NotAl these arE! the kinds of things l:hat art:! happE:11Ying ulith l:he health care system on the Burin Peninsula. 1.34- Mar·ch 22, 1990 Vo1 XLI NotAl, I happen to knotAJ a Ji .t.L1E• bit rnorE~ about that Lhan l:he Min:ist··.r:!r of Health, because I live down there and I know th::- people [ am talking about . Thi:tt is tAJhat has happened to Lhis great, big, improved health care scheme For the Bur·in Peninsula. Now, I hop::- a1.1 these bugs are it"OnE'!C:I out. and we will see that the net effect for the people of the Burin Peninsula lAii.11 indo::~d be 'irnpt~OlJ::~d hE!cdth car'E•.

If that happE•ns, I tAli11 be very, very pleased . But, as of notJJ, th::!J"::~ is a cr··tsis in thE:' hE!alt.h care'! systE!I'II on LhE! Burin Peninsula and we all know 'it is go:ing to l:.r:tko LlAIO yc•ar ·s rnin·irnum, I tJJould think, Lo se t:! a Forty bed expansion for St. Lawrence for care For th:) elderly; it is going to take aL least another Lwo years beFore we see construction of what is referred to notAl as l:he Ht:!a1 Lh Car:c! Cen l:.r·:~ fo1n Grand Bank, v..J~d.ch :i.s esSE!nce is a clinic, an out-pat.i::,nt's c1.inic, and only then if HlE'r'E! <H 'e provisions :in LhE!

Moints. t:et" oF FinancE!' s next Budgr,•t l .. o besri n c o n s t r u c t. i o n . A n d t h a t. i. ~:. l: h e othE!r unknown questi.on. We cou1d be talking ten years. MR. BAK _ER: Tru~;t us. MR . MATTHEWS : The President of Treasury Bo ard says, 'T J~ust us.' WeJ], j n Lh:is case I tAri .11 l:rusL hi.rn. ThE•t"e is not very much I would tru st any of them about, bul:. in Lhi.s cast ;! [ w:ill trust: hirn, that :i.n rl :'!X L year's Budget he lAri .ll have E·nou•Jh influence to see that: there is JTionies Jn next: yeal~'s Buclg~:~L l:o construct the Fort:y -bed -care facility for l:he eldet~1y in S l:.

Lauwence, and the home CiH 'e CE:!nl:.r·e For Grand Bank. HopefuJly, that wi11 happE!I"l. And if Lhey c/o, UlE:!n No . 8 1n11-

I t.~.ri11 stand in my place and say how pleased I am to see that happen, as I am today to see that at least it was mentioned that ther'E! was money for· planning. HopeftJlly, next year the Minister of HE!a1th wilJ. be ab1e to dE!J.iver and pl"ovide funds ·for construct.ion doLIJn tht~re. Mr. Chairman, I thought it was irnportc.';lnt to mention tl'li:!Se things to thE! MinJster of Hea1th, becauSE! I arn sure h(,~ is fed lines, lib:' aLl. MJnJsters, that sorneti.mE!S arE• not totally accurate. Officials do this to Min:istE!I"S.

They make tl·l•:Hn believ~~ how wonderful th-:ings arE:~ in health car€:! on the Burin Peninsula, and hoLIJ wonderful things LIJouJ.d be for the MinistE!r' of Education if they could move the headquarters of Eastern Community College to Clarenvi.lle, what a big improvement it is going to be, when, in essence, it is going to cost this Minister and l:he Board of Eastern Community CoJJ.ege morE! monE•y. These arE! the kinds of things officials do, so sometimes Ministers are not told the tJJhole story. MR. TOBIN: Did you see the ad in today's "Southr:~rn Gaze·U:e"? MR.

MA TTHEWS: No, I did not se€:! the ad :in I:: he "Sou-t:hr,~rn Cazette". I am so tit"ed of l.ook:ing at rnys€df and the mernbr:~l" For Bur-:in ·- Placentia W•':!st in the "Southern Cazl'::'tte'' that I do not read it anymore. ~3orneone as kE•cl me the oth€~r· day, LIJhi1E· LIJE• were going up the Bay d' Espoir highway, do you felJ.ows own the two radio stations on the Burin Peninsu1a and the 1oca1 papE!I"? I said, no tJJe do not, but tAJ~:. at"e altAJays therE!. Mr.

Chai r·rnan, it is too bacl that L3') March 22, 1990 Vol XLI the Minister· of Fisht'ri€:!S is not: in his plac•':! at this time, because I L\JantE!d to rnake a fE!t/J f:ishet"'i.E•s comments, particularly about the Budget as 'i.t. pE•rta'i.ns to ti·H=· Department of Fisheries. fhis year we SE!e a s:ign:i.f:icant. reduction in l:he money allocated to thE! DE!part:m€:!nt of F:ishet":iE!S $33.3 rnillton r.:~duc€~d to $31.2 mi11ion.

What you have to remember is l:hat in that: Department of Fisher'i.es budge t this year there is a $9 mi1Jion allocation to Fishery Products International for the exl:ended notic€:~ p€:'1''iod. Of COUI"S€:!, if you eliminate that $9 million which is there for that specif:ic purpose, you tAdll St:!e Lhal .. Lhe act.ua1 budget of the Department of Fisheries for general operations throughout the Province is, in esSE!nce, $11.1 mi.11ion l.ess Lhan last YE!iH'.

NoLIJ, can you j_rni;tg'i.ne tAJith t.his pat~ticular Fishe1ny Cl"isis in this Pr·ovincE! that you IAJould have a CoVE!I"I'Hnent, lAJho say they care about rural New~o~ndland and Labrador, tAJho say they ar·e ser'i.ous about addt"€:!SS'in~1 !:hE· Fisher·ies issue in Lhis Pt"ovinc.o, aJ.locate $11.1 mil1ion Jess to its Depal~trnent oF Fish•:-ries? fh•:!l"t'~ -is no othel" rE!fE!I"€~nCE! :in any othet" Department in Government l:o addt"E!SS t:h:i.s ver·y SN'ious crisis; thE!I"E~ is nothing -.in De:'veloprnent; there is noth:ing Lhrough thP Econo111ic RI':!COVI':'I"Y Cotnltlission, except an aclcliti.onal ~f>2. l 1Tti11.:Lon For l:hem.

Ml~. BAKER : You are LIII"Ong . MR. MATTHEWS: fhe PrestdenL of freasury Board keeps teJ.J·ing me I am IAJI"onq. Well, I ask h"im l:o look e1l Lhe budgE:~!: for· !:he Dep<H"lrnenL or:· Fisheries and see For himseJ.f. Last y~=·ar t.he budget f'ot" the No. 8 1\35

D e p a r t mE! n -t of F J. s h t1 r i e s tAl a s $ 3 3 . 3 million. fhis year it is $31.2 million. Now. that is $2 .1 mi1lion less, and of that $31.2 million there is a $9 mi1lion allocation for Fishery Products International. The MJ.nister of Development is confused as well. Ht=>. is looking confused. You wouJ.d thin I< h~;:1 would knotJJ something about what is happening. I can understand he is preoccup1.ed. looking around at other things, looking over his shoulders. Ht=>. is looking around, and 1 can under·stand the Min-ister being concerned about that. MR. BAKER: Page 201. MR.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, President Board. page 201. now. is that correct? of Treasury what I said, MR. BAKER: No, you are wrong . MR. MATTHFWS: Tell me why I am LAJrong, when you gE!t. a chance. 33.3 and 31.2, is a $2.1 million difference. Now, tJJhether or not, Mr . Chairman, l:hE! interes Ling point is, it makE!S you suspicious if that is where the $2. 1 million came from; from the Economic Recovery Cornrnission, thE! same amount of monE!y, 2.1. left to Fishe1ny, 2. 1 to the Econo1nic Recovery Commission. MR. SIMMS: What happened to the money that Development lost? MR.

MATTHEWS : It is the id•:ontical amount. happ.::•ned .to the money for Department of Development? out of the Department with Government. What the Gone th~:! L36 March 22, 1990 Vol XLI AN. HON. MEMBER: They wanted to give it to tourism. MR. MA rTHEWS: What can we say about tourism? We t.AJill get back to all these things a bit J.ater, Mr. Chairman. The Minister of Social Services is sitting over there like the peacock - $5 million less for community developement. The Minister of EmployrnE!nt and Labour $ 3 rrd 11 i o n f o r e 111 p 1 o y rn e n l: programs. MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, please!

The hon. the Member's time has elapsed. The hon. th~;:~ ME!rnber fo1n La Po:ile . MR. RAMSAY: Thank you. Mr. Chairman. r: do not know if I can. apolog :i.zE• for standing, but I understand now that l:hE• prE!CE!dE!n"l. had br:•E'n ·SE:•t.. I. tAJant to get :info "'l:_h<'! Inl:el"irn Supply Bi11 and possibly show a little bit of a broader scope, than just. saying as the hon. Leader of the Opposi U .on said: Write a chE!qUe rOI" a billion do1lars.' I think thert" :is a lot morE• to it than that. WE! haVE! t_o look at who tJJi 11 pay.

Me•11JbE :!rs Opposite say that. becausE• of UlE! tax structure, this payroll tax will be implemented and we will E•nd up paying t:h1nee l:.:i111es. I would certainly think il is somewhat unusual to try t.o say that a simplE! t:ax, that in qE•rH :!r·a l a l:.ax that t.a.Ji.ll gc~L Ll·1•:' major employers . the larger ernp1oyers including the Federal Cover·n111ent to contribute to the Provincial freasury is going l:o havo an effect on the consumer of the Province. Th•:'! act_ual Ed- I c•c L that the consumer of the Province would have is created by the Federal No. 8 rn6

Govel~nment in it.s lack of commitment to the regional disparity that exists in ou1~ country. If they are going to giVE! us equalization payments, fine, but if thE!Y pour more rnonE!Y into Ontario and Quebec per capita, than they gJve to Newfoundland and other smaller provinCE!S that ai~E! in nE!ed of it to help develop economic initiatives, then who, really is the one to blame? Not just simply a blame on thE! Fecl€~ral GovernrnE!n ·t as an individual or as an individual. body. I think !Ale have to look at mainly l:he motoi.on that. the Premier gave today and his proposal For a revised constitutional accord.

We certaoi.nly have to look at our national institutions and the nal~ional . institution of the Federal . GoVE!rnmE!nt of Canada supports thr-.:1 majority of electors in Canada now. How does this affect ou1~ Budget process?

Well, we might say that one part of it, as we noted would be affech'd by the Unemployment Insurance Legislatoion, Bi.ll C 21, and you have the Government House Leader · of l:he day, standing in l:he House of Commons, lAJavin~~ and talking about the Senate as if it wer·e a terd.ble thing that l.:he Senate w:!r'e having anything l:o do tAd l:h it - that the Senators would have the gaLl to hav€~ anythiiVJ at all t.o do wi l':.h national :iss UE!S and whatnot, they should just sit :in theoi.r p1c-.lCE!.

WeJ.1, who is upsta".i1ns notAl, meE!t.ing lAJith out~ Pln,:~mier, if :i.t. is not:. a SE!nator, so the auclac:i.ty t o suggest that ~ ~ R. fOBIN : Upstairs? Upstairs? MR. RAMSAY: Maybe they rH~E:!d a biqger room to hand1E! such a Senator. But anytAJay, the audacil:y to suggest L.3'7 Mi.H'Ch 22, 1990 Vo1 XLI that l~he SE!natol~s in l:he Cha1nb':!r aln€:' of no use to thE! nation, but to allotAJ a Sena l~or l~o be a Minister of Hw Crou.m of out" Country, just shot.us l:h~:· l~otal hypocrisy of the system and the lAJay it can b''~ rnanipul.atecl as it now stands. AN HON. MEMBER : Wait now (inaudible). MR.

I~AMSAY: No, no, you hold on a sE:•cond notAl. rhe oLhE·l~ thing I lAJanl:E!d l.:o brinq up is, that they qe t :into the detai.1. fhey want l:hE:' Min·.is l~r:!t" of Finance to bt~ing out l:.hE:! de t.a:i 1 ~> of the payroll tax. Now, hon. Members oppos:ite, if t hey would take the time to look al:. l:.he Budget SpE!ech, and stal .. ecl tn t he Budget Speech, l:he primary produCE•rs and seconclat~y pinoducr::!t~s, in the three renewable resource industries of f isheries, Forestry and Agriculture, l~hE! t"ate lAILll b1?. zero per cent. I do not. know about Members opposi . b>., bul:.

I can CE!rtainly figurE! son1eth:i.nq out from that. Why tAJoulcl you say something is zero pet" cent, as a rate? So t:hl':!refore l~he tax tAii.ll bE! assesSE:'cl a t a r·at:.e oF 0 per' cen t . Now does t h .is h a v '''! to cl o lAI'i t: h F I" e e t rade? I would sugges t l:.hat :i. l:. does. And l:he 1'~vy·.inq ol t.hl?. payt~oJ1 t ax: say you lAJ(:!I"E• qo.i.nq to give exe mptions all over l:.he p1[:1CE!, t·.hE~n t he exetltp t-L ons lAJou J. d possibly be considered a subs i dy under l:.he Free trade agreemen t .

So you have l:o 1 evy il: on p o s s i b 1 y , y o u k n o !AJ , !AI E• h a v e n o t hea1~c1 f o1~ sure, rnaybe you haVE! l:o levy :i t on a l l l arge co mpanies, and t hen l~hr-.:1 except:.ions t.uou1d havE• t o be 0 ra ti ng For var i ous instil~ul~ions and t hal~. Maybe t ha t is t he caSE!. Maybe that.: :i. s lAJhat. they a1~e looking For. Why go No. 8 I~ 3 'I

through the extra bookkeeping of levying it and then removing it later with an extra grant. I think your answer J.i.es, gentlr-.:HnC:~n, in the Budget ·document which should possibly have been studied by now to find these little things. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. RAMSAY : WeLl. it is thE!re pla:i.n for you to see and you havt::! a statement cJ.arifying it. in the future. But it is thetne plain for you to see. AJ.l you have to do is read it closely as opposed to just picking out thE• things that you can probably misinform the public of th~~ Province on. Also, Mr.

Chairman, I want to comment on the cutbacks l:hat thE! Fl~detnal Governtm'!nt have made. Th~:· cutbacks which have provided this situation where it is now necessary for us to find the E!Xtra l~ax money that. is necessary. And the Opposition has the gall to say that we are responsib1e, whC:~n this money that we m'E!d, and they say they incrt?.ased it by $28 million, but if you are planning over a period of a number of years and if your E!Xpectations arE! X number of dollars and they say, whoops! w~"'! want $20 million back bE!Cause our deficit is out of control.

Now do we go to thE:' pubJ.ic of the Province - and everyone in the Province was expecting tax increases, they were expecting more -· and tAJe had to put some in there. And in the same way in which the Opposition used to do it, ask the Nt"!wfoundland Liquor· Corporati .on to bring J.n sorrtE! morE! money. AN HON . MEMBER : We heard it all now. L38 Mar·ch 22, 1990 Vol XI...I. MR. RAMSAY: We learned that one from you guys, and tAJe thank you For l:hat type of implementation which does not cause as much ttnoublo or· as nn .tch rrd.sinforrnation to go out: as if tAle were hurting l~he people.

Possibly by taxing cigareltes a bit more maybe tAlt'~ can decreasE• consurnprion who knows? - But, Mr. Chairman, I feel proud l~o stand hr-.:~re today as a L".i b~~ra1 j n philosophy and not-: on1y in 111y pat"ty affi1iation and suppot"t the Interim Supply Bill, of course, which is just a part of the Budget process. It is sorne'l:irnes spokt::'n of as j_f it is sor11eth:inq diffen•nt, wher·eas it "is just-. a stopgap to fJ.ll the ti11 unL:il such time as lhe Budget is actually passed.

But I want to mention the fisher·J.es t.~.Jhich is something t.hal:. hits pretty close to home with everybody and we are making such a case For Lhe Fisher·ies .in l:.lw Province. And we haVE! l:.o take a look at exactly IAJhal:. tAJould happt:~n LI.Jith the f"i.shE!r'ies if LI.Je Ll.lf!l"e to go and throw the money a l~ i.l the way that Lhey feel tAlE• shou]d hr.'tve in this Budgt;!t, when nE•go l:.ia l:.ions are going on with the Federa] Government now l~o try l:.o addtness the crisis. Now could we say that the Provinc:ia1 CovE•rntrHc'nl~ shouJ.d put the money forth?

I mean we are the only ones. rhe only Govetnnment in Canada t:.ha L has anything to do tAli. t: h b u in q r· E! 1 a L t'" d to lhe fishE!tny who put i'lny trtoney up for Lhe current: fisheri.es c r i s i s . A n d t: hey s a y tAl ~d l IAI e are going ~-o put in X number· oF do11ars and probabJ.y the majority of Lhat cotnE!S ftnoln l..ht:- unemployment insurance system which is funded by t:he E!lllployt:.>tns No. 8 I~ 3 g

and the employees. There is no government money - government control, but no government money. Some little ounce of money that they are going to throw at Newfoundland and say oh, you know, he1ne we go. Now in some caSE!S lAJe tAJill ged~ it by our otAm initiative if we approach l:he Federal Gouerrllnۥn l~. in th!i:~ right way and with thE! 1night lobbying ability and we develop plans properly and whatnot. We certainly can be availing of Federal Government monies, if we make a good case to them.

But, in general, in most communities in ou1n Province that case cannot be made because people arE! just now getttng together and learning Lhe process by which the Federal Government will act. So there will have to bE! a very high injection of money in l:he interirn to allow people to E!njoy a decent standard of living until such time as we can cr~ate the d i u e r s if i c. at i o n t h a t. i s need e d i n this Province. But the Federal Gouernm1;!nt stands and says, lAJell, we wiLl put the Harris Pane 1 Ta s I< Force Report on the shelf and lets see when it is politically correct to announce it.

Now do the people of Newfoundland deserve better than that? I think, c1:>.rtainly, they do. And, if hon. ME!mbers oppositE! would only stand and say the same thing, maybe WE! could then, as a common voice for the people of the Province, get the Federal Government to act. MR. CHAIRMAN: OrdE:~r-, please! The hon. Member's time has elapsed . SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! L39 March 22, 1.990 Vo1 XLI MR. RAMSAY: No, I tA1il1 s p!i:~al< lateln, Min • Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: BeforE! thE! hon. th!i:' MernbE!r' fol" St.

John • s East Exh~rn speaks, it being Thursday at 4-:00 p.m., I would like to infol"m the House of the thl"l'::~e questions for' the La t.E! Show: 'I am not satisfied with the answe·r giVE!n by the Minis l:E:•J" responsible for Forestry and Agriculture with regard to the question put to him by me on March 21, 1990 • -· the hon. t.he M(•nibE'!I" fo1n Humber Valley (Mr. Woodfol"cl); 'Mr·. Sp!i:~akE!r, I tAJas not satisfied tAJit:h anstJJers giut::1n l:o rny quest"Lon by thE! Minis l:E!r of Finance t.oday, concerning recreation • ·- the hon. the Mernber for Fogo (Mr'. Winsor); 'Mr.

Speak -er, I arn not·: sat.·.isf"i.':'d with thE! ansWE!r g:i.uen by tl-11:! Minister of Finance to my question about thE! ernployE•r • s payroLl. tc:~x' the hon. the ME!I'nbE!r for Hu1ni:H:1r · East (Ms Verge). The hon. the ME!ITlbE:'r for' St. John's East EXh!rn. MR. PARSONS : Thank you very much, Ml". Chail"lnan . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PA I~ SONS : Mr. ChairTIIiH1, it is cE•rta:i.nly a priui.lE:'ge for' tnE• l:oclay l:o 1"'is1:~ in rny place and say a few words pertaining t:o Interim Supply, but tlv:!re is s t.-.i.J.l. sacln~:!ss.

I arn ve1ny, Vlo!l"Y sad that: I, and 1ny co1leagues, havE:~ to s t.and i.n ouJ" places and say, 'Look, hotAJ can we pass this biJ.lion dollar Interirn Supply, wh1:~n Lhe Minis l:er' of Finance cannot. l:E!l.l us one iota, as t:o tAihE•re al'.l these rnonies aJ"e coming from?' No. 8 1\39

I suppose, perhaps, I am one of the senior people in the House but, you know, I was surprised today, this late in my life, to see the Minister 'of Finance for this very proud Province just sit dotAJn, answering nothing, not one thing, pertaining to the Budget he presented ten days ago. MR. R. AYLWARD: I haVE! not had a chance to write up an answer for him yet. Ml~. PARSONS: It couJ.d be that thE! Prem :ier, because of his involvement in MeE!Ch Lake, his fishing in ME!ech Lake, did not have time to addr,~ss MR . R. AYLWARD: - did not have time to wri l:e his anstAJer· for him. MR.

PARSONS: ... --cii -cr·---no~c ·-- have time to write thE! answer for the Minister of Finance. The ol:her thing that: troubles rne, really, is what the Minister of Health ·- he was up, as well, and I must say, the Minister of Health U·ies to be truthful, but he stretches the truth. He says, 'WE! op1::>ned FifteE!n beds,' and my hon. colleague explains to him, 'But you closed FiFty beds,' so, in essence, there is a minus thirty-five. Now I believe, Mr. Cha'.i.rrnan, the mistake in thE• calculations of the Minister of FinancE• has to come from the Minister of Health.

With the Minister of Health saying, 'We have a plus,' when, in essence, il:. is minus thirty -·five, I can see where the hon. the Minister of Finance came up with his figures. ThE• other thing, Min. Chairman, is l:hr::~ repeated rhetoric. Ev,:-ry time the Minister of Finance is asked a l_/10 Ma1nch 22, 1990 Vol XLI question, the first thing that comes out of his mouth is, 'The Federal Government, blame it on the Federal Government.' Mr·. Chairman, in equal i zat i.o n programs alone, we arE! this YN'lr, compared to J.ast yNlr, IAJil:h a pius $27 milLion; over· all p1nogr•arns, tJJ1:> are in excess of $43 million.

Now how can the Minister of Finance d1?.fend his linE! oF l:hought that this problem he Finds with his budgel:ary process to be Lhe fault of the Federal Government: when in essence there is a $43 million extra cheque there from the Federal Gover·nrmO!nt? And as tAll~ know, the FederaJ. Government is responsible for, I think, about 61 per cent of the totaJ. rnonir :!S that he h~s to play with. Mr. Chairman, thE!I"E! areas that tAJere l1:! F t 1.5. Now that is ar'€:! out: or IAJhat l:: hI" E! (! Minister said the day he r·ead l:.he thE:! his budget. Those were Fisheries, Forestry and Agriculture. Mr.

Chairman, let: us look al:. what he did eliminate. HE! el:inrinaLE•cl l:he Fisheries. But hoiAJ could you include thE! Fishe1nies -·- any parl. of it - when in essence Lhe Fishery was in such dire sLraight:s tha ·t monies had l:o be pun1p1?.d in to it, and apar·t From that E!Veryone was getting laid oFF. Every second plant was being closed. Where W1~re you going to gel L·he payroJ.l money anyway? Why were the plants closed? Because the GOVE!rnrnent of l:oclay Sc\lAJ fi.t t.o J.pt the plants close when we introduced a resolut:ion on Lhis side saying that. a] 1 pJ.an t.s lAJOU ld stay open sharing the resource .

Sharing Lhe resource. rhe aJ.l--pJ.an ts·- .. open rE!SOlu L'.i .on. You asked me . rhat is why all Lhe people arE! J.aicl off, that. ts lAJhy No. 8 "110

we do not have any tax on the payrolls because therE:' are no payJnol1s out there. They arE! a11 gone, destroyed by ~his Government. AN HON. MEMBER : The Member for Exploits (Mr. Grimes) would not beli