Manitoba Hansard — 15 June 1999 (Sitting 44, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-44

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 44- 1:30 p.m., Thesday, June 15, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRET£, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward I IICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIIIYCIIUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAI'i.. David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, lion. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, lion. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCIIUK, Rosann l"acant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob! in-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.lJP. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2773 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 15, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Comm ittee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, it gives me pleasure to table the Supplementary Information for the 19 99-2000 Departmental Expenditures for the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund and the Supplementary Information for the 19 99-2000 Departmental Expenditures for the Department of Manitoba Natural Resources. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon fifty Grade 5 students from R.H.G. Bonnycastle School under the direction of Mrs.

Melaney Vermeylen and Mrs. Barb Holden. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey). Also, twenty-five Grade 5 students from J.R. Walkof Elementary School under the direction of Mrs. Linda Wall. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). And, twenty-three Grade 6 students from Margaret Park School under the direction of Ms. Dianne Moroz. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Compensation for Farmers Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, last week a number of municipalities passed resolutions calling on a specific program for a contingency plan for unseeded land due to the flooding this year. KAP presented a specific $50-an-acre proposal to the government, a federal-provincial proposal.

Last evening at the City Council meeting in Brandon, they too joined many other munici palities and businesses calling on a specific program and calling on a specific $50-an-acre proposal as a contingency plan. I would like to ask the First Minister: is there a specific program, a specific contingency plan in place, and do they support the proposal for a program similar to the $50 an acre that is being proposed by farm organizations and municipalities in rural and western Manitoba? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I thank the member opposite for his question.

As he knows, we had extensive discussions at five different locations in the southwest part of the province, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), the Mini ster of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) and I, last Thursday. In addition, the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Natural Resources and the Minister of Govern ment Services (Mr. Pitu ra) met with other

2774 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 groups in the Parklands area on Friday, and the Minister of Agriculture had an opportunity to meet with the federal mini ster, Mr. Vanclief, late Friday. In addition to that, I had discussions on Wednesday of last week and put out a news release on Friday morning, a joint news release with Premier Romanow, requesting certain specifics from the federal government.

What we have indi cated is that we believe that an acreage payment should be made and that there are funds available, already committed in substantial degree through federal and provincial governments. In fact, the more than $15 0 million in the AIDA program that has been commi tted, if done on an acreage basis as an interim payment towards what we believe could be readily calculable entitlements under AIDA, as soon as it is known what acreage is not planted, then we could go straightforwardly and make the calculations that would allow us to make an interim acreage payment to the farmers.

That proposal has been made both in writing and in the form of the proposal that Premier Romanow and I made, and also directly by our provincia l Minister of Agricu lture (Mr. Enns) to the federal Minister of Agriculture. We have not had a direct response yet, other than a willingness by the federal minis ter, as I understand it, to look at the flexibility that could be used. In addition to that, there are a number of other proposals, which I may touch upon if the member has other questions, that we are putting forward, Madam Speaker. * (1 335) Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, as I understand it, the letter requesting disaster assistance was dated on June 9, 19 99, to the federal govern ment, a couple of weeks after the flooding first started, obviously in late April, early May. Madam Speaker, when we look back to the flooding and the damages of the flooding in 19 97, the Premier and the federal minis ter at that point made an initial announcement on May 1, 19 97. It is now well into the middle of June, and we have discussions going on with this program and that program, et cetera, but there is no actual specific concrete contingency plan.

So many producers are asking us : is the contingency plan the government is talking about $50 an acre? Is it more than that, less than that? Is it cost-shared between the federal and provincial governments? In Saskatchewan, there is the crop insurance program that provides for $25 an acre, as I understand it. Many producers are producing contingency plans in specific terms. What is the specific contingency plan proposed by this government, and will he table the letter that was sent to the federal government on June 9? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, firstly, the member opposite should know that the initial discussions at which the Minis ter of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) made the proposal to Mr. Vanclief took place two weeks ago last Friday. We would have to backdate that, but it was in the latter part of May. There were verbal discussions that were intended to provide a path and a proposal to the minister. Since the federal minis ter then took the position in Parliament that he had not received something in writing, it was then put in writing on I guess it was the 9th of June. I do not have that in front of me.

The federal minis ter I understand has now corrected his position saying, yes, he acknowledges that that was proposed to him by our Minister of Agriculture. The proposals that we have put forward have a desire to achieve something equivalent to the approximately $50 an acre, which we believe could be flowed through the AIDA program. That will be a little bit dependent on the eligibili ty of people and indeed their economic circumstances.

As the member may know, and certainly in the discussions with the producers and the municipal leaders, the expectation, in my judgment, was not that there would be an immedia te flow but that there would be a cash flow that would come to them approximately at the same time as they would have normally been expecting some income to start to flow from the crop, because if they were successful in seeding a crop this year, they would not be getting income from it in May or June or July. It would not be until after they harvested it.

So their expectation is that money should flow at a similar time to what it would normally flow under normal conditions, not immedia tely.

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2775 They are, though, looking for specifics about certain things, and that is why today the minis ter has announced the custom seeding program so that if the weather continues to provide an opportunity for people to get on the land and seed in the next short while, they can do it on an intensive basis, and there will be a support for the extra costs of the intensive seeding process that would come from government.

That was precisely what was done in response to the 19 97 flood on the Red River, and that is exactly what we are asking for them to do, to give similar treatment here. That would be the kind of immed iate thing that they would be looking for, and certainly our government has provided for that, saying we are prepared to fund the program and to request of the federal government that they do what they did in the Red River, which is to in fact provide the funding for that.

But the farmers need to know it this week so that if they are going to get intensively on the land, it has to be done in the next very, very short while. * (134 0) Mr. Doer: We had asked the government to table the letter they sent on June 9 in terms of the specific proposal they made to the federal government on that date. Can the Premier indicate when we will have the specific plan in place, the contingency plan in place for unseeded acreage? Will the Premier, with the federal and provincial governments-when will we know, when will producers know? Mr.

Filmon: The producers know that our government is making the comm itment to them to utilize funds that we have set aside, of which over $60 million is our provincial funds in AIDA, of which approximately 40 percent of the funds in NISA is our provincial funds, that we will make those funds available to them through this process. They also know that all of the terms and conditions of AIDA and NISA are set by the federal government unilaterally without our control. They also know that in order for those funds to flow, only the federal government can allow for that now.

That demand has been made to them by our government, by the govern ment of Saskatchewan and by the producers of western Canada, and it is now going to be up to the federal minis ter to tell us when a decision is made and under what terms and conditions those funds can flow. Health Care System IC Units-Northern Manitoba Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My questions are directed to the Minister of Health. Vir tually every day now we continue to receive calls from people of northern Manitoba concerned over access to quality health care.

This past week, for example, we saw once again the closure of the Garden Hill nursing station, and that was due to a shortage of nursing. This past weekend I was phoned by several other residents concerning the fact that the only IC unit operating in northern Manitoba is at The Pas. I want to ask the minis ter if he could tell the House why the other IC units in Flin Flon and Thompson are not operating, and when might they be operating full time. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): The member in his

preamble touched on an issue that we discussed yesterday, the need for more nurses at some of our First Nations nursing stations, certainly the issue of Garden Hill. Our department has been working with the federal government on that issue. I have indicated I will also follow up with my counterpart at the federal level on this issue. I am told that out of eight positions at Garden Hill, five were presently filled. I am told now, as of today, there are six that will be filled as of tomorrow. So that is certainly some improvement, but obviously there is a great deal more to be done.

In terms of the IC units that the member referred to, it is a follow-up to a question I had from the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) a week or two ago, and again, that is a staffing issue that the RHA and our department are working on addressing. Summer Shutdowns Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minis ter another question, and that has to do with the shutdown issue that he talked about last week, the closures that are happening in Thompson and Flin Flon. Does

2776 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 that have anything to do with the people wanting to go on vacation and on everything being shut down for the summer? Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Health): Again, Madam Speaker, that is in part what happens in terms of some of the summer requirements. On an overall basis, we made progress in terms of addressing the issue of recruitment and retention of health care professionals in the province of Manitoba, but everybody knows we continue to need more nurses in Manitoba.

That is the issue when it comes to some of our First Nations communities, and that is also an issue in other health care facilities. That is why we have set aside $32.5 million for 650 nursing positions in this budget that members opposite supported. That is why we have set aside a $7-million nurse recruitment and retention fund. That is why there are more permanent positions being created in the health care system.

A number of steps are collectively being taken to address that very important issue of bringing more nurses into our health care system, and progress is being made and progress will continue to be made to elimin ate that issue. * (1 345) Cardiac Care Program Surgery Canc ellations Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): I want to ask the minis ter a final question, Madam Speaker, and that has to do with a patient from The Pas who had been looking to come to Winnipeg to get heart surgery. The minis ter last week advised me that he was going to check into the individ ual case and get back to me.

As of last Friday, when I phoned the family, nothing yet had been resolved. Now I want to ask the minis ter again today what he has done to resolve Mr. Porter's rather serious situation. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I did follow up on that issue after a question from the member for The Pas, and I am certainly prepared to provide more information to him subsequent to Question Period today. But the information that I have been provided is Mr. Porter is considered an elective patient for surgery and therefore is being dealt with within that process.

We have indicated that if the situation is emergent, when it comes to cardiac surgery, it is done within 48 hours, and if it is elective, there is a longer waiting period, recognizing that our waiting period in Manitoba, when it comes to cardiac surgery, is significantly reduced. We are now up to over a thousand cardiac surgeries annually in the province of Manitoba, a significant growth in all of that. The Health Sciences Centre alone is doing 50 percent more cardiac surgeries last year than two years ago.

That is all because of the additional resources that are being dedicated to address that very important issue. Health Care System Emergency Services Waiting Lists Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, last Wednesday after midn ight, I visited a number of the emergency rooms in the city of Winnipeg. I can report that after mid night there were 14 people waiting at the St.

Boniface emergency, I 0 waiting in the hallways at the Seven Oaks and three in observation, 13 were waiting in the Misericordia, 10 children were waiting in the waiting room at Children's Hospital and over 40 were waiting in the waiting room at the Health Sciences Centre, some of whom had waited since three o'clock in the afternoon, and I was there after midnig ht.

My question to the mini ster is: in good conscience, how can this department spend $1 75 ,000 on propaganda Tory television ads when they could be spending that money trying to reduce waiting lists, trying to provide services, trying to provide intensive care units in the Nor th for the members? How can they in good conscience waste $1 75 ,000 on Conser vative propaganda ads? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, waiting lists have come down significantly all across the board, whether it is in the area of diagnostic services like CT scans or MRI testing or bone density testing and simila rly with surgery procedures, that they continue to come down in terms of waiting lists. As well, we are doing more and more surgical procedures. Our surgical volumes are up some 2 percent. We are doing this year alone some 600

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2777 to 700 more hip and knee surgeries. I have already outlined that we are doing more cardiac surgery. I am sure that is one of the many reasons that members opposite supported this 19 99 budget of ours, because we have dedicated $19 4 million more for health care, in large part to reduce some of the waiting lists and to continue to improve servi ces. We disc ussed at length yesterday with the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) the need to continue to provide information to Manitobans.

Manitobans want information on their health care system, and I believe it is incumbent on governments to provide that health care infor mation. I know the member opposite believes in providing information to Manitobans, and that is exactly what is being done. * ( 135 0) Diagnostic Testing Waiting Lists Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, can the minis ter tell me, in light of the fact that these new TV ads say that they are increasing dialysis and increasing the number of CT scans: who was the government in charge when our CT scan lists were the longest in all of Canada and when the government laid off a thousand nurses and when the dialysis program was in danger? Who was the government responsible for that? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I will gladly share with the member for Kildonan the information on how Manitoba stacks up today when it comes to issues like waiting lists for diagnostic services, like CT scans or bone density scans or ultrasound or other diagnostic services, as well as our comparisons when it comes to waiting times for surgical procedures, as well as how Manitoba stacks up when it comes to the number of positions per capita, the number of specialists per capita, the number of nurses per capita.

That is all because we have continued to dedicate more and more resources to health care in each and every budget, today some 35.5 percent of all of the money we spend on behalf of Manitobans, $2.1 billion this budget alone which they supported, $19 4 million more to continue to address all those issues, improve services to Manitoba and have some of the shortest waiting times in all of Canada. Emergency Services Waiting Lists Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the min ister, who I note did not answer the question and refused to indi cate it was the Tories under whom we had the longest waiting lists: can the minis ter perhaps indicate to this House whether or not the minis ter or the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) will have the courage to perhaps, since the waiting rooms that I visited all have TV s, will the minis ter and the government perhaps be willing to show these ads to the patients who are waiting in the waiting rooms at all of the hospitals, the Flin Flon Hospital, and Thompson ICUs, and will they be prepared to show these ads to the patients as they wait in the waiting room to get the service- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): They are interesting questions from the member for Kildonan because he asks me about waiting lists.

He asks me about hospital over-crowding, and I have outlined to him very clearly that we have made significant progress in both of those areas. In fact, our waiting lists now in many areas are amongst the best in Canada. They have gone down literally across the board, whether diagnostic services or surgical procedures, and that is exactly what this information is providing to Manitobans. It is providing them information on those two very important issues which I would expect he supports. We have had lengthy discussions about the need to provide information to Manitobans on health care.

We believe in providing information to Manitobans on their health care system. Manitobans want information on their health care system. The only people who seem opposed to providing information to Manitobans about health care are members opposite, Madam Speaker.

2778 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 Gangs Reduction Strategy-Hotline Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice. Other than the long overdue efforts to track gang members in provincial jails, the only other known little program of this government that deals specifically and in a targeted way with gangs is their gang hotline put in place before the last election, which the former minis ter said was extremely helpful.

My question for the minis ter is: would he tell us if the gang hotline is still being advertised, or was it only advertised before and during the last election? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I do know something about that gang hotline. It is something that the provincial government funded and that the City of Winnipeg is responsible for maintaining, and I understand that we are still paying the funds for the maintenance of that gang hotline. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would the minis ter, who tries to take full credit for this gang hotline from time to time, not agree, and the former mini ster, that if the gang hotline was extremely helpful several years ago when gang membership was a few hundred in strength in Winnipeg, it would be even more important, if not critical, now that known gang membership has escalated under this government to about I ,500 in Winnipeg alone? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I do know that in fact today there are approximately 830 inactive gang members. I think that is as a direct result of many of the initiatives that our government has taken.

Madam Speaker, know that our government believes that convicted drug dealers and gang leaders should be behind bars. I know that members opposite want early parole for gang leaders and drug dealers. They, in fact, supported early parole for gang leaders and drug dealers. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, this minis ter with a vivid imagination, I do not know where he was when we opposed early parole for Dwayne Archie Johnston. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his supple mentary question. * (135 5) Mr.

Mackintosh: Would this min ister explain why a message that was left two weeks ago today on the hotline still has not been returned? The hotline has gone cold. It is the gang cold line. That is how much they care about gangs, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Toews: Well, I know, Madam Speaker, in speaking with the relevant authorities, that his office has called at least eight times, never left a message, never left his name, simply hung up. I know that he is checking up on the gang hotline, and that is good to see that the member from the opposition does that.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able Minister of Justice, to complete his response. Mr. Toews: But, Madam Speaker, if he wants a return, all he needs to do is leave his name and number. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for St. Johns, with a new question? Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: A point of order, Madam Speaker. I am sure the minis ter would not want to leave an untruth on the record. He should know full well that the call that was made was by people other than myself, no return phone call.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for St. Johns did not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2779 Winnipeg Police Service Fundi ng-Consul tations Mr. Gary Ko walski (The Maples) : Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. The min ister has spent a week high lighting his law and order policies. Yet, if we read today's newspapers, the City of Winnipeg does not seem to be co-operating. In fact, it appears the mayor seems to be declaring war on emergency workers, first cutting a pumper from the fire department, going after paramedics. Now he will be fielding fewer police officers in the coming years instead of more.

Possibly the head of their union should have been as co operative as Paul Moist was with mayoralty candidate Glen Murray. Can the minister indicate if, before any of his current announcements, including an offer to boost the number of city police officers, he had at any time consulted with the city or the mayor, or did he simply take unilateral action? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Indeed, Madam Speaker, we continuously consult with the City of Winnipeg on a wide variety of issues, including policing.

Indeed, the issue related to the Joint Forces Intelligence Unit was a proposal that was brought forward by the Criminal Intelligence Service of Manitoba which involved the City of Winnipeg, City of Brandon and the RCMP. One will recall that a number of months ago had occasion to sign the memorandum of understanding in terms of the creation of that, and there was some concern about the police chief not being in attendance at that particular signing. That was of course because it is the RCMP who are our provincial police force.

However, I have certainly discussed the issue, and indeed our government responded to a request from those three police forces for the Joint Forces Intelligence Unit. * (1 400) Fundin g-Additional Officers Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Can the minis ter indicate if, while the province supplied money to support 40 additional police officers, in fact Winnipeg has put these officers in the street, or have they just taken the money and kept their complement down? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I have had a number of conversations with the former mayor as well as this particular mayor, and I know that there are always issues of whether or not an agreement is being met on any particular day. I think, in these types of agreements where there are issues of human resources, that we see flexibility in terms of the staffing levels. We have tried to be reasonable.

I think one of the things that we are trying to stress is, by putting these resources at the disposal of the City of Winnipeg, that we want to work together in partnership for a safe Winnipeg. I believe that we can continue to work together with the City of Winnipeg to ensure that outcome is achieved. Mr. Kowalski: If the city is intent on cutting 10 0 police officers in order to achieve their budgetary objectives, is this government going to put its money where its mouth is and protect the half of Manitobans who live in Winnipeg by funding a greater portion of police services in the city of Winnipeg? Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, as I understand it, the mayor has made certain comments in respect of possibilities. These are by no means certainties. I know that other councillors, specifically if what we are to read in today's newspaper is correct, do not support that particular proposal. So this is an issue that city councillors must resolve on the floor of City Council.

I want to tell the people of Manitoba and the people of Winnipeg in particular that this government continues to be supportive of police services, as we see this as a very effective way of reducing the crime rate, and we want to work together with the city to resolve any issues that they might identify and that they might have. Conflict of Interest Civil Servants-Business Loans Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, on January 18 , 19 96, the Scurfield report on the conflict of interest allegations

2780 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 against Michael Bessey was released. In spite of this report, this government has failed to take action on the very real problems of conflicts of interest with its senior civil servants. It has come to our attention that a senior civil servant is now in the habit of loaning his own money at very high rates of interest to companies that have dealings with the same department he works for without disclosing to the borrower his employment in that department.

I want to ask the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism whether he will confirm that Ian Robertson, now assistant deputy minis ter and then managing partner of Financial Services for IT&T, personally loaned $50,000 for a one-year mortgage to a lodge operator whose loan application had already been turned down by the department, without disclosing that he, Robertson, was a senior official of that same department, Madam Speaker. Hon.

Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I can advise the member opposite that when those suggestions were brought forward to my department, I asked the deputy minis ter to get involved immedia tely, and that, through him and the office of the Civil Service Commission, an investigation has been carried out. The conclusion of this investigation found that there was no conflict of interest with the person suggested by the honourable member. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, how does the minis ter respond to Mr. Collette's assertion that Robertson had privileged information on Mr.

Collette's business plan which could only have come from the business plan which Collette had not given to Mr. Robertson? How does he explain the privileged information that his own official had when he went and made a private loan? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Tweed: As I suggested to the member earlier, upon notification of the concern brought forward by Mr. Collette to my department, the deputy minis ter, along with the Civil Service Commission, carried out a complete and full investigation, and they found that in their statement back to us there was no conflict of interest. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, I want to table the current guidelines of the Conflict of Interest Policy and I want to ask the min ister: how does he explain the fact that Mr. Robertson, who is an assistant deputy min ister covered by both this policy and by the legislative policy on conflict of interest, does not have a duty to report to his deputy minis ter his loan activities, not have a duty to disclose to his client his status in the department? How does the minis ter explain the failure of his civil servant to abide by his own conflict of interest regulations? Mr. Tweed: Madam Speaker, again, being notified of Mr.

Collette's concern, we have advised him, and it is available to all people who have a concern or an issue to bring forward that they have an alternative route that they can take. They can request that the provincial Ombuds man investigate, to review to make sure that the investigation was properly performed. If Mr. Collette so desires to do that, he is able to do so. But I would like to just confirm that the investigation carried out by the Civil Service Commission did indeed state that there was no direct conflict of interest. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, on a new question, to the Premier.

Does the Premier then approve of senior civil servants like Mr. Robertson, assistant deputy minis ters, loaning their own private personal funds to companies whose information is clearly available to Mr. Robertson in files of the department Mr. Robertson works for, without disclosing to Mr. Collette or to any borrower his status as an assistant deputy minis ter in the department, giving Mr. Collette his business card, meeting with him in his own departmental office, never disclosing when he made the loan that he was an assistant deputy minis ter or a senior official of the department?

Is that the conflict of interest policy of this government? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, in all of these things we have to have a due process, and the process that has been

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 278 1 followed has been one of taking the allegation and having it investigated by the Civil Service Commission, which is independent of govern ment. The member knows that. As a former civil servant, I am sure he appreciates that. So once that is done, if the investiga tion says that the allegations in some way are not as they appear to be, and then that in fact the civil servant is being supported by the investigation, we would have difficulty in overruling that civil service review.

In fact, the member knows that we would leave ourselves open to a lawsuit if we did not follow the due process, the investiga tion and the recommendation. So, if the member wants to have the matter looked at further, he has been given the avenue by the minis ter which was to suggest that the Ombudsman be called in, that that individual would have to then put his information forward and have the Ombudsman do the investigation. We have absolutely no reason why we would want to protect a civil servant who, it is assumed, has done something wrong.

We have to go through a process though to verify whether or not all the facts are as they are being presented either in the letter of allegation by the individual or by the member. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, then essentially is the Premier saying that he approves of an assistant deputy min ister loaning money, meeting clients in his office, not disclosing his role when the money was loaned, using information which potentially is in a conflict, or it certainly has the appearance of being a conflict? The facts are on the record. Does the minis ter approve of this conduct? Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The question has been put. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I am saying nothing of the sort. I am saying that when an allegation is made, there has to be a due process followed to investi gate the allegation and to establish whether or not it is in fact the truth or whether or not there is something that does not appear to be as is presented, and we did not undertake that. We turned it over to an indepen dent body, the Civil Service Commission, that is independent of government.

We asked that they look at it, and they are in a position where they must not only enforce the conflict of interest rules of this government but they also must ensure that they protect the rights of an indiv idual who is being accused. So they have to be very careful in terms of how they do it.

I have not seen the investigation or the report, but I am saying, Madam Speaker, that we would have difficulty not abiding by the report and in fact would probably open ourselves up to a lawsuit if we did not follow due process and then accept the results of the process as long as it is independent from government, which it is. While I am on my feet, I am not sure what letters the member opposite, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) was ref erring to at the beginning of the Question Period, so I will table with him the letter of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Enns) to his counterpart, the Honourable Lyle Vanclief, dated the 8th of June, and my letter to the Prime Minister, dated the 7th of June, for his information. [interjection] Sorry, the member did not give me any specifics. He is now saying it was from the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura) . I will go back and undertake to get that one as well, Madam Speaker. * (1410 ) Driver Licensing Written Tests-Ukrainian Language Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): [Ukrainian spoken] [Translation] I want you to know I can drive a car but in Manitoba I must take a written test before I can get a driver's licence, but our government does not allow me to take my written examination in Ukrainian. I want to know why this government has cancelled testing in Ukrainian and will not allow me to take the test in my Ukrainian language. Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): I understood the member's question from Swan River, asking why it is that people who speak the Ukrainian language could not write their driver's examination in the Ukrainian language. I believe, and this is some-

2782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 thing that I would refer to the minis ter who is responsible for Manitoba Autopac, but certainly I have had members from the Parkland area come to me who have come from a country recently and have asked that same question, and at that time they were allowed to take with them someone who could interpret the questions for them and could then respond in their own native language. I will certainly defer that matter to the minis ter's responsibility. Ms.

Wowchuk: I appreciate the Minister of Rural Development answering the question, but this government has to understand that there are many people who can drive but do not speak the English language and want to take drivers' tests. I want to ask this government why they have reduced the number of languages from over 20 languages down to 11 , and they have elim inated Ukrainian as one of the languages that we can take a written test in. Why are you taking this right away from people who want to be able to drive in this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, without accepting the veracity of the

preamble, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Praznik). Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. I am ruling on a matter taken under advise ment on June 1. The opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton) raised a point of order concerning the orderliness of an answer provided by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) to a question posed by the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh). The opposition House leader did have a point of order.

The answer did not deal directly with the matter raised and did provoke debate. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Manitoba Baseball Hall of Fame Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Recently I had the pleasure of participating in the opening ceremonies of the Manitoba Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum and the third induction dinner in Morden. The town of Morden is a fitting home for the Manitoba Baseball Hall of Fame. Throughout the years, Morden has played host to a number of baseball tournaments and championships.

Time and again the residents of Morden have pulled together and acted as gracious hosts, pulling out all stops to make sporting events fun, safe and professional. Morden is no stranger to baseball talent or stardom. A number of baseball players got their start in Morden. It is always a delight to read or hear about successful young players who cite Morden as the place they got their start. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate three of Morden's baseball greats. These gentlemen were inducted into the Manitoba Baseball Hall of Fame on Saturday.

Jim Mutcheson coached in Morden from 19 54 to '62, winning regionals three times and was the driving force behind the Little League program from 19 58 to 19 85. Bob Thompson was pitcher and infielder for 20 years from the late '40s to the late '60s and led Miami to many victories in the South Central Baseball League. Joe Wiwchar has coached baseball continuously from 19 53 to 19 98. I cannot say enough about what Joe has done for baseball in this province.

The Hall of Fame is a collection of baseball artifacts, photographs, pennants, jerseys and includes a special display featuring the Manitoba women who competed in the 19 40s and '50s in the All-Ameri can Baseball League. Please join me in congratulating Joe Wiwchar, curator, and all of the volunteers and staff who have worked so hard in putting the hall of fame and museum together. Cardiac Care Program Ms. Becky Barrett (Welling ton): Today, Madam Speaker, we received a letter from Lorrie Roulette from Brandon, Manitoba, that I would like to read into the record. It is entitled Manitoba Health?

Manitoba Health has cut back 10 0 cardiac surgery cases per year. This is your story. In August 19 97, your normally healthy, vital and energetic 43-year-old spouse had a heart attack.

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2783 The whole family was in shock. Over the next few months you learned to cope. Better diet, exercise and lifestyle were learned and practised. You had learned to live with the constant knowledge of your loved one's mortality. Your spouse has suffered a serious blow but manages to keep a very positive attitude and struggles to keep life normal for everyone involved. Your family lives in fear now but carries on. I am so proud of you all. You are doing great. In July 19 98, your spouse had a second heart attack. By now you know this problem is not going to go away.

You, your children, your brothers, your sisters, parents and friends are devastated by the fact that you are very close to losing a person who you cannot live without, for your spouse is loved by many. You do have faith in the health care system and know that surely they can and will help you through this trying time. * (1 420) It is now February 19 99, and a third heart attack is your biggest fear. You know that it is imminent, and you watch your loved one become tired and edgy every day. Will the next heart attack cause irreparable damage, or will it be fatal? Disaster can be avoided, you are told.

A quadruple by-pass can save the life of the person you love-wonderful news. When? Wednesday, May 5, you are packed and loading the car, mentally and physically and emotionally prepared. Your shifts at work have all been filled. Your children have been taken out of school and/or have taken time off work. The newspaper has been cancelled for a week. You have made arrangements for someone to sit with your father who is ill and bedridden. A hotel room has been booked. Family and friends are waiting to hear, praying that all has gone well. Madam Speaker, I will conclude tomorrow.

Manitoba Society of Seniors 55 Plus Games Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): This morning I had the pleasure of being in Carman which is playing host to the Manitoba Society of Seniors 55 Plus Games. The games kicked off today and will run until Thursday. With 19 99 being the International Year of Older Persons and June being Seniors Month, this year's addition of the MSOS 55 Plus Games is bound to be a time of particular excitement in our province. Seniors who gather in Carman will participate in events ranging from baseball, bowling, golf, shuffleboard and snooker.

In addition to enjoying some physical activity, they will also enjoy the fellowship and friendship gained from gathering their fellow Manitobans to celebrate the games. It is appropriate, especially during the International Year of Older Persons and Seniors Month, that we take the time to honour and recognize the contributions of our seniors, past and present. Their know ledge and experience have provided our leaders with the guidance and direction to make Manitoba the strong and vibr ant province we all enjoy today.

I would like to congratulate the Manitoba Soci ety of Seniors, its many volunteers, and the communi ty and businesses of Carman for all their efforts in staging this unique event for our province's seniors. The organizing comm ittee has been hard at work developing a program of sport, recreation and hospitality that is sure to impress the many visi tors the events attract. I know the games will be a resounding success. Thank you. Mr. Brian O'Leary Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, I rise to take advantage of this opportunity to say a few words about the principal of Maples Collegiate.

I wish I did not have this opportunity, because today being June 15 would have been the day we would have had a provincial election if it had been called on May 11 , and I would be returning to the police force and helping them with their staffing shortage. Although it is a privilege to represent the people of The Maples, I am anxious to get back and that, but because I have this opportunity I would like to say a few words about Brian O'Leary. He is leaving Maples Collegiate to assume the role of assistant superintendent. My wife and I have been very happy with the way Brian has treated our daughter, Tanya.

He has

2784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 done many positive things in that high school. I believe I stood up once before in a members' statement and commented when there was a stabbing incid ent that was not related to the school other than it happened on the sidewalk in front, and Brian took quick and immedia te action that lessened the impact of what could have happened. That was typical of the type of action that Brian O'Leary would take. When Brian O'Leary first arrived at Maples Collegiate, there was some gang activity there, and he took quick and immedia te action.

As a result, Maples Collegiate is a school that I think any member would be happy to send their child to. He has brought in some new staff there that have improved the music program, the drama program there. All in all, although I did not agree with everything that Brian O'Leary did there, I give him best wishes in his next endeavour, and I wish the new principal, Val McCorkell, will do just as well as Brian O'Leary. ORDERS OF THE DAY Comm ittee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Pembina (Mr.

Dyck), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) for the member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). This sub stitution was moved in comm ittee this morning. I am now moving the substitution in the House in order for the official records to be properly reflected. Motion agreed to. House Business Hon.

David Newman (Deputy Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you please canvass the House to ascertain if there is unanimous consent for the following adjust ments to the Estimates sequence for today only. First, Sport will be considered in this Chamber. Secondly, the Estimates of Energy and Mines will be considered in Room 254, and if the Estimates of that department are completed, they will be followed by Family Services.

Thirdly, the Estimates of Consumer and Corporate Affairs will be considered in Room 255, and if the Estimates of that department are completed, they will be followed by Rural Development. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to make a difference to the Estimates sequence for today only: (

I) Sport to be considered in the Chamber; (2) the Estimates of Energy and Mines to be considered in Room 254, and if the Estimates of that department are completed, then they will be followed by the Estimates of the Department of Family Services; and (3) the Estimates of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs to be considered in Room 255. If Sport Estimates are completed, they will be followed by Rural Development. [agreed] Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, I would ask if there is leave of the House to waive private members' hour today, appreciating that we will be using Thursday morning sitting for Private Members' Business.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour for today, appreciating that we would be using Thursday morning for Private Members' Business. [agreed] Mr. Newman: I move, seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. * (1 440) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concu rrent Sections) ENERGY AND MINES Mr. Chai rperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Commi ttee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the consid eration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the comm ittee last sat it had been considering item 23.2. Energy

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2785 and Mineral Resources (

a) Marketing

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 59 of the Main Estimates book. Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minis ter to clarify how many of the staff in Marketing are involved in media relations and doing promo tional things like brochures and writing other information pieces. Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): The number of individuals who con tribute as part of their job function to that parti cular task are four individuals: manager, client services; promotions co-ordinator; graphics technician; and desktop publishing assistant. Ms.

Mihychuk: Recently we had an opportunity to educate some of our colleagues in the House on various types of ore that are primarily for metals, base metals. What initiatives has the department taken during Mining Week to enhance awareness or other special projects? Perhaps you can lay out what the initiatives have been this year. Mr. Newman: Marketing participated in developing history of min ing, a mining fact sheet; a proclamation related to Mining Week; a news release relating to it. All were sent to all school divisions in Manitoba and all aboriginal schools. All have been put on the website.

They also participated in the mine rescue competition materials in partnership with the Mining Association. Ms. Mihychuk: What association did the department have in the recent event called Meet the Miners, which the Mining Association sponsors at the Art Gallery? Mr. Newman: The involvement included the supply of a display unit, the involvement of a business development liaison, and I gave the feature presentation in terms of a speech. Ms. Mihychuk: In one of the minis ter's recent comments, he mentioned the fact that the department had sent out information regarding Manitoba's geology to schools.

Can the minis ter tell us where and when Manitoba geological features or history are included in Manitoba's curriculum? At what grade levels is it? First of all, can the minis ter assure us that Manitoba's geological history is incorporated into the curriculum and at what levels? Mr. New man: I would not want to answer for another department. I think the Department of Education and Training would be the most appropriate department to put these questions to. Ms.

Mihychuk: Having been a trustee for many years and fairly involved in the education system, I am not familiar with any geologists on staff in the department. Those types of resources, I would assume, are linked together, so that specialty areas like geology would be fed into the curriculum by a consultation process with the department. Maybe I can phrase the question: has there been that type of consultation? I know that the department is under a massive rewriting of curriculum.

If natural sciences is being rewritten, it is an opportunity for the department to feed in information about Manitoba about our geo logical past to make it more relevant and more meaningful to our students in Manitoba. I think that that would be a positive thing. If it has been done in the past or if the opportunity is there, when has it been done or would the department be open to that type of consultation? * (1 450) Mr.

Newman: I have considered your sugges tion being so worthy that we are thinking likewise about this particular issue, and we are investing in a needs, strength and gift assessment in relation to aboriginal communities, youth, education institutions and the general public this fiscal year, and will be engaging a contractor to perform that kind of function because we are very interested in enhancing awareness, interest, and positive attitudes towards the history and future of mining in this province.

So we are mounting that specific initiative to enhance that process which has already been done, in part, through our aboriginal mining accord process which is designed to build understanding reciprocally, as well, between the industry and the aboriginal community. One thing that we will undertake to check out and provide you with is that I am advised

2786 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 that several years ago there was an elementary level, I believe, Grade 7, junior high level, curriculum developed by members of Geological Services and will investig ate to what extent, if at all, it has been incorporated into curricula in the Department of Education. It was an initiative. Ms. Mihychuk: One of the major events that the department does is sponsors a mining convention annually and this year, even though commodity prices were so low and our mining industry is suffering, we had a fairly good turnout.

I think overall we can say that the convention was a success. Can the min ister indi cate the number of staff hours involved to organize the mining con vention and the cost of the convention to the department? Mr. Newman: We do not have that information at our finger tips. Rather than take the time right now, we will undertake to provide that to you. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the min ister indicate the outreach that the Marketing Branch has done in the past year, or what it projects to do? Is it the same as last year? Are we reaching out to others? Is the strategy changing, given that we are in a recession in minin g?

Are we looking at new initiatives? What is our plan for the up coming year? Mr. Newman: The general categories of our outreach would be through our website and the continuing updating of that. Secondly, through our Team Manitoba concept, which is now being expanded to Northern Aff airs and First Nations communities. The third category is the Mines and Minerals Convention generally. The fourth category is the aboriginal mining corridor guidelines.

When the assessment is done that I described earlier, we will decide what other new initiatives we should proceed with, building on the strengths and gifts of the individ uals and communities who can contribute to the development of mining exploration, production, jobs and entrepreneurial opportunities. Ms. Mihychuk: One of the roles of the Marketing Branch is to monitor global market trends and measure socioeconomic impacts of the mi neral industry in Manitoba. Can the minis ter give us an assessment of global market trends and where we see the next four or five years?

We have had numerous meetings with Inco and Hudson Bay and others and the minin g association. They have their perspective, and it is probably fairly accurate, but I would be very interested in hearing the government's analysis of global trends and where we see the min eral sector going in the future. I mean fairly recent future. We would like to know what is going to happen in terms of Manitoba's economy. Mr.

Newman: The advice that I have been getting from the department, through the Marketing Branch, is that we cannot control global commod ity prices, so we focus our efforts on continuing to create a positive environment to invest. We, on a regular basis, receive the feedback and forecasts of the industry members, and they can deal with the specifics of a particular mineral and their anticipation of what the future might bring. But we have learned in recent years that they do not have very good foresight either, and Voisey's Bay and the prices of nickel are probably one splendid example of that.

The largest nickel producer in the world made some forecasts which turned out to be less than perfect in their acquisition of properties in Voisey's Bay. On the other hand, you have Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting and what Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting has done in our North with a view to making themselves the lowest-cost producers they possibly can be and to generating a level of profitability which warrants their continued, indeed enhanced investment in this province. They share with us their profitability percentages.

They share it with their union, they share it with the general community, and then they work at reducing their unit costs of production by enhanced technology and the best ideas that come from their employees, the communi ty and experts. Then our department staff, based on the best wisdom they have, either validate or not the kinds of information that come out of those companies, and to the extent their shared information is legitimized, we then decide as a government to what extent we might do our share on behalf of taxpayers to ensure

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2787 that the maximum numbers of jobs and income and capital investment are continued in the province. * ( 15 00) So we work very closely with Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting with respect to their vision toward 2012 which is now extending further into the future as they enhance their knowledge of the quality of their deposits intended to become mines. We do the same thing with Inco. We do the same thing with our gold producers, and we do similar things with our industrial min eral producers. We do the same thing with Tanco.

So we do not really make a major investment trying to do the research or to try and duplicate what is done by these companies acting in their own self-interest, but we do validate what they come forward with as shared information or question what they come forward with as shared information. So through that relationship, we collectively as a department and me as a minis ter get a handle as to what the future of producers and also exploration might be in this province.

I mean that we track to a certain extent with our geoscience people what is happening with diamond exploration and some of these new exploration efforts which have not yet manifested themselves in any shared information for public dissemina tion yet. Ms. Mihychuk: I am reading the Activity Identification in the Estimates book which clearly identifies one of the roles of the Marketing section, which basically would be an economic officer to monitor global market trends and measure socioeconomic impacts for the min eral industry.

I know several people who have had that position in the past, including Lyle Skinner and the present executive director of the Mining Association, both who had experience in economics and both with a good grounding in the min eral industry. Who in the branch is now doing that role, or is this perhaps a carry-over from past days? Are we actively monitoring global trends and doing this kind of work, or are we relying on industry to provide government the information? Mr. New man: Lyle Skinner and Rick Halas provide that function.

I should have added in my list of minerals, one of the minerals that a consi derable amount of research has been done on to validate industry information and to anticipate global market trends is potash. Based on the guidance that we have from the department, a strategy has developed in relation to that, simi larly with respect to industrial min erals generally, which is, as you know, one of the new initiatives funded by MEAP. Ms. Mihychuk: I am very interested to find out what type of data the department collects on the impacts of the mi neral industry.

That is because we recently had an opportunity to be in Thompson. I was speaking to the owner of a trucking company who was reflecting on how quickly the negative cycle in mining was impacting his company, which is based in St. James, so he was not only a constituent but also in the critic area of mining. He was talking about how the number of trucks that head up north every day is a good signal, a good sign of how healthy our min eral economy is in Manitoba. I am wondering what sectors or what indi cators the department measures to see what the impacts of the mi neral industry is in Manitoba.

I really do not believe that many people understand how important mining is to each and every one of us, whether we are in Killarney or in Winnipeg in a suburb. If we are actually working or living in a minin g community, that is a different thing. Those people may be aware of the impacts of mining, but for the ma jority of Manitobans it is a fairly remote, little understood industry. To perhaps relate it to something that we can understand like the number of semis heading up No. 6 is a good indicator for people.

They would be able to understand that there is not as much food being bought, there are not as much supplies, and that impacts the workers here in Winnipeg. I would be very interested in knowing what types of indicators the department monitors on a regular basis. * (1 51 0) Mr. Newman: In a partnering relationship with the Mining Association and the Manitoba

2788 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 Bureau of Statistics, we have been in the process of developing indi cators, measures of the importance of mining and the impacts of mining and exploration. That includes the direct and indirect consequences of mining. When we do an analysis for the purposes of determining impacts now, we look at numbers of employees, we look at the wages paid, we look at the taxes generated, we look at the capital investments and those fundamentally, but we are developing a new set of indicators which would be more readily understood by the general public. Ms.

Mihychuk: Moving up the activities column in the Estimates book, the second item is: "Monitors and lobbies for positive changes to fiscal policy and regulatory regimes." I would just like to ask the minister: is it normal to have a government department or government branch lobby itself? I mean, clearly it is the department that puts forward ideas and policy changes and recommends regulatory regime changes, so I just have to question what the minis ter means by lobbying for positive changes, and what those positive changes that the department feels need to be made and that government is not listening to. Mr.

Newman: The choice of words mig ht suggest connotations which are not intended by that term, but the kind of advocacy and action which is intended to be captured by that term includes participation, for example, in the tax comm ittee with the Mining Association dealing with the impacts of our fiscal regime on our mining activity here, but also in relation to the federal government.

We have, for example, now an ongoing effort to try and get the federal government's regulatory scheme in relation to reserve lands made more user friendly and consistent with the kinds of standards we have in our own area of juris dictional control in the province, and that kind of activity also falls under that term. Simi larly, in relation to other departments of government or government agencies like Workers Compensation, we deal with them under that rubric.

Another example would be in dealing with the energy suppliers, usually Hydro, and there is no question it is an advocacy kind of function that is performed on behalf of members of the industry, sometimes through business liaison people. Under the Marketing Branch there is an issue with the Department of Education in a remote community which is, in the eyes of employees who send their children to school there, not providing proper service or the school bus is not properly accommodative or, in relation to the Department of Highways, there are issues about roads and the quality of safety or efficiency of roads.

That falls under that function as well. It is all part of the lobbying or advocacy function performed by empowered people in the department, and when they need my help, I get involved. Ms. Mihychuk: One of the things that we hear about in the North a lot is the condition of the roads in the North, and I know that mining companies have approached me to get roads fixed, so I am sure that complaints come through to the department. Has the department made a recommendation to enhance the amount of spending in the North?

Perhaps he could indicate how much and which roads and to what degree or what type of plan the department has recom mended in terms of our highway infrastructure which is in some need, no doubt, of upgrading. Mr.

Newman: The approach of the department is to think very strategically about this and also to identify what we call client needs and aspirations and then to use the needs and aspirations of those clients to be addressed through a mutual education approach so that they understand the kinds of constraints that the funders have, the priorities they have and we, in tum, understand their constraints and their priorities.

Growing out of that mutual under standing, we can sometimes build a case which justifies the strategic expenditure of money in a different priority because the kinds of considerations that resulted in the tentative initial decision or the actual decision did not have a complete understanding of a particular situation that has emerged, so we do that on an ongoing basis where a good sound business case can be made. I know that these matters come to my level in relation to companies like Continental Lime. We had issues in relation to Tanco, the tantalum mine on the road which carries their product

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2789 where issues of safety and quality of the road were at issue. We have an emerging issue which is really fairly blue-skying, relating into infrastructure development on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, with the process being more important than anything. It has to be a respectful process to ensure that all relevant wisdom is put on the table and a consensus is arrived at about what might be of mutual advantage for infrastructure changes there, and we know that will be beneficial to minin g, so mining is at that table.

So that is how we deal with all of those kinds of issues. It is not a matter of percentages of dollars paid to a geographic area. It has all to do with a specific case properly analyzed and a business case generated out of that, and then with all the cards on the table, trying to determine what is in the best public interest to the province of Manitoba generally. Ms. Mihychuk: The federal government's, or through CN, the overall rail policy for rail line abandonment has a huge impact on munici palities and, in this case, mining companies.

Geologically, or from my perspective, it seems to make very little sense to move from a rail line which requires a certain amount of resource and move what has traditionally been able to carry some very significantly large loads onto our municipal and provincial road structure which is much more, I think, a resource-consuming option. But we ended up having to shut down a number of rail lines, and some miner al and mining companies were impacted.

Can the minis ter indicate what that has cost us in terms of road maintenance, increased road main tenance, and increased transportation cost to the mining sector? * (1 520) Mr. Newman: That would not be within the area of our expertise, but Highways and Transportation might have done that kind of analysis. I do know this, is that it is most unfortunate that the Canadian government did what it did in relation to Canadian National without having a better appreciation for the consequences to the people of the North in the province and to the province generally.

Our department was very much involved under the previous min ister in fighting to retain a rail line connection to Ruttan, the Bay line, and it was only through the very vigorous efforts of my predecessor in this minis try and the government backing him that CN and the Canadian government finally acquiesced in that situation. I am not happy with what was done in the past by the federal government or by CN because of the impact on the province.

We continue to pay a price for that on our road system, and it is all the more reason why the federal government should be contributing to the maintenance and enhancement of our road system out of the taxes that they take out, the gasoline taxes they take out of the province. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter indicate if mining companies are assuming the costs of the road maintenance in their municipalities, or are municipal governments forced to cover the additional costs? Mr.

Newman: My staff have only shared with me knowledge of one road that the company pays for the maintenance and repair of, and that is one in Thompson. Ms. Mihychuk: Well, clearly, this is an area where we see again sort of downloading by the federal government those additional costs. By rail line abandonment there are clearly additional costs to the local areas, and municipalities are picking it up. We hear about it in rural areas for agriculture and the increased traffic, and in mining communities, trucking ore over roads can have serious negative wear and tear on roads.

I know that to be true, so this is an area that municipalities are forced to pick up in times when we are looking at closures and downsizing. It is another indicator that municipalities in the North or near mining communities are suffering and maybe are not able to provide as much as they were in the past and are directly impacted by rail line abandonment. I would like to now move to the first activity identified in the Marketing Branch, which I think is extremely important and have always felt that the Geological Services Branch knew of

2790 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 or had very gifted people who were able to identify and many times discover mineral potential in Manitoba. These potentials I would say in the past have not been marketed as effectively as they could. I am familiar with a case in Newfoundland, for example, where a deposit was marketed inter nationally. There was an international auction and the best price was gotten for this property. I think we talked about it last year. I am not familiar that that has ever happened in Manitoba.

I would like to know what projects the Marketing Branch and Geological Services have worked on together to develop Manitoba. It is talking about new miner al opportunities. Perhaps the minis ter can indi cate if Manitoba has these potential gifts and what they are and how we are going to move these forward to maximize our potential benefits from these opportunities. * (1 530 ) Mr. New man: The mineral development opportunities for the various base precious and industrial mi nerals which have been promoted in co-operation with the Geological Services Branch, of course, are a very extensive list.

Depending on how far you want to go with this, let me describe the detailed list. The description is the Marketing Branch worked closely with Geological Services to release 11 reports, including the report of activities with 30 individual preliminary field reports and 42 maps in '98 and '99. Two open file reports were released as CO-ROMs, providing clients with digital data in several formats for improved

interpretation and manipulation of geochemical survey results and stratigraphic data. The Marketing Branch produced a number of promotional publications including the very well-received Manitoba Exploration News, which highl ights current developments in Manitoba's exploration and mining industry. The Exploration News was distributed in the industry and in our mining and aboriginal com munities to keep all stakeholders well informed by providing them with industry news, mining community profiles, and information on our government programs, products, and services.

The revelations show or the disclosures show, of course, is the Manitoba Mining and Minerals Convention, where there is a release of some of the most exciting of these kinds of things each year. I can list the reports with the different specific kinds of mi nerals that are the subject of promotion, but just let me share a few to illustrate the diversity of this, everything from Phanerazoic black shales to carvable soapstone, min eral resource potential, and overburden thickness for the purposes of the Capital Region study. I am prepared to table the entire list and get copies if you wish that information. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minis ter indicate which of those projects has the greatest economic potential for development? Mr. Newman: For clarification, that is of the total listing, not the ones I expressed orally, but all of them? Ms. Mihychuk: Well, some of them provide a broad base sort of geological assessment of an area or give a perspective of a potential for a certain geological deposit, like the overburden study would be assessing whether it is a valuable tool. We could not really go and market over burden.

We would probably wish we could, but besides the quarry potential and sometimes you can find a few diamonds in it, we have not found it particularly useful as an exporting commodity. So some of those projects, although high lighted as something valuable, are not necessarily what Manitoba can look forward to in the future as something new or innovative that we are going to be doing a push on. So it is interesting that the department highlights all projects, but I am not really interested in that. I am more interested in what projects we see as being viable in the near future that we are going to focus on. Mr.

Newman: The most significant oppor tunities growing out of the different surveys that have been done are base metals, gold, and diamonds, pursuant to multimedia surveys; the northern extension of the Thompson nickel belt revealing new nickel, copper opportunities; and the crushed stone enhanced potential in the Capital Region.

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 279 1 Ms. Mihychuk: It is interesting. Can the min ister indi cate why the Cross Lake deposit was not on that list? Are we looking at developing or marketing? Do we have some thing in the bag here that we are just sort of waiting for the government to make an announcement? Are we looking for customers for that very significant deposit, which I hope will be developed as quickly as possible? Knowing the communities ofN orway House and Cross Lake very well, the people in those areas deserve to have meaningful jobs.

The development of the Cross Lake deposit would provide many, many opportunities for economic development in that region. As we wait and wait and wait, the Cross Lake deposit still remains in the ground, undeveloped. I know that the private sector is doing exploration and various other work, but is that now being put on hold? Will we be seeing the economic development of that project soon? Mr.

Newman: What is happening in the Cross Lake area in relation to the identified titanium deposit is a very frustrating situation from the perspective of any traditional thinkers about developing what appears to be a splendid opportunity. A challenge that is faced here is the challenge of a current leadership which is a unique kind of leadership, I might say, in this community. It is not just the chief and council, there are far more groups involved.

There is a youth group; there is an elders' group; the chief and council are one group; and there are the people responsible for the mining joint venture There is a women's group as well.

One has to be very patient and very understanding, given our traditional way of trying to build a relationship in connection with development, and the frustration of people that think in the traditional ways for economic development is shared not just by us but by people in the very community, the people that understand the international mining issues, the global marketplace, the nature and dynamics of opportunities that arise like this one for titanium at this particular time. * (1 540) A lot of advice going to the people in that community comes from lawyers who purport to be experts or experienced in the whole concept of mining and the necessary consensus to move ahead.

They kind of take advantage of an opportunity of ways and sometimes require fairly quick decisions to be made. Decisive and firm decisions to be made which others can rely on are not being made here because of the very complic ated process. The kinds of advice they are being given, other priorities than mining, a desire to use this mining opportunity as a lever to gain other kinds of payback make progress in this opportunity very difficult. The moment you start moving ahead, you think it is a mutual understanding.

The next moment that mutual understanding is dashed, because they have changed their mind or they have taken a totally new tact and got another legal opinion that says they have rights that no one ever thought they had. Then we get legal opinions to test out their legal opinion, and then we would come out with more than one legal opinion that says they are on the wrong track, and they come up with another legal opinion. It is a very frustrating process, but what we are exercising so far is maybe an unprecedented amount of patience and tolerance.

The ways they show sometimes their reaction to our positive gestures of good will are to demonstrate and threaten to disrupt the Pan American Games, to protest and prevent my plane from leaving their communi ty when I have been invited to go up there and agreed to go up there. It has been that kind of difficulty which we see as a challenge, which we trust in the people of Cross Lake democratically, ultimately, to decide the future of their community.

A grave concern is sometimes that, when the spokespeople who are not either aboriginal or in any way connected to the band other than by a retainer and make money from this perpetuated effort not to achieve anything immedia te, those relationships that the band has sometimes prevent them from getting even accurate information. We are concerned about that. We are very concerned that whatever they ultimately decide to do may not be based on the level of informed consent that has been part of every ma jor deal that has been made.

There was the original comprehensive deal that we made with the other four First Nations communities in relation to Northern Affairs, the

2792 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 NF A 19 77 comprehensive settlements; there were efforts that we have been making to settle the NF A '77 with Cross Lake when we had a deal, a substantial agreement in 19 97, in June. Then, when the new chief and council and this new kind of complex leadership came into being, they started to call the shots and put an end to the conclusion of the comprehensive settlement.

We have been trying to work within the auspices, within the parameters of NF A 19 77, in creative ways, with working groups, and trying to come up with a comprehensive plan which involves this potential mining opportunity as a way to achieve the goals of eradication of poverty, goals of socioeconomic development of the community. Hydro and my department and Northern Affairs, Economic Development Board, all have lent their best intelligence and best good will, as has the Mining Association of Manitoba and, to a certain extent, the Government of Canada.

For example, the Government of Canada funded attendance of two representatives from the band and a consultant representing Gossan Resources to attend an international titanium oxide conference in Padova, Italy, in mid-April this year. Pursuant to that, a lot of contacts were made, and opportunities for developing relation ships with potential serious investors at a world level were made, it was revealed.

We and all the different players who have an interest in socioeconomic development in this community for the benefit of the indivi duals and the community as a whole continue to work with anyone in that community who wants to move forward, and their working group.

We take all the kicks in the head that we get day in and day out and the reverse of what appears to be progress, because it is ultimately they who will decide whether they will take advantage of this opportunity or they will conclude, hopefully in an informed way, that they want to abandon this opportunity or suspend it and take a look at it I 0 years or 20 years or 30 years from now or never. We have been very conscientious in trying to make them aware of the realities of the marketplace, the small window this opportunity might have, the world competition for investing. This is not the only deposit in the world.

We have, however, been advised that it is probably one of the best, if not the best in the world, that is immedia tely available for viable development. * (1 550) So this is all part of the growth of our aboriginal people as they decide to what extent they want to embrace development.

If they are not properly advised and do not do the right thing, they are going to learn a very serious lesson about the consequences of not getting the right kinds of advice from the right kinds of experts, the right kinds of experienced people, the kinds of people who have objective wisdom that they are prepared to share for pay or otherwise. A number of contacts have been made with different companies.

Just to show you the level of stature of some of these companies that had, in the Italy meeting, expressed an interest, they include Kronos, Titan AS from Norway, ISCOR heavy minerals from South Africa, Falconbridge out of Toronto, Namakwa Sands Division from South Africa, Kemira Pigments from Finland, Millennium Inorganic Chemicals out of Hunt Valley, U.S.A., Kerr-McGee Chemical LLC out of Oklahoma City, and Tinfos Development out of Norway. In helpful, friendly ways we continue to facilitate these kinds of relationship building.

We also relate to the federal government on the whole issue of what form the land tenure should take. It is an issue which has resulted in all of these different legal opinions that have emerged. What we are hoping is that they will simply make up their minds which way they want to go and what is in their best interests, what is in the best interests of achieving socioeconomic development and personal development of their people. That is our interest as the government of the province of Manitoba. It is very interesting.

One sees the working group function in ways they are trying to get them to come forward with a plan. I mean, you tell us how you want to do personal and socio economic development in your community. You give us the plan so we can then as friends, as responsible government in Manitoba and government in Canada and Hydro, give you our best advice, but give us something that you want.

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2793 We had not received that after many months of seeking this. There was a meeting in Cross Lake this last Thursday and Friday where they were expected to table that. What took place was positive on the Thursday, and then on the Friday the lawyers got involved and started to, through one of them particularly, make the kinds of threats that I alluded to earlier, which are simply a repeat of the kinds of personal involvement I have had with Mr. Andrew Orkin [phonetic] in particular. Ms.

Mihychuk: The Cross Lake deposit is now talked about as a world-class deposit with potential of creating employment for I have heard estimates of 1, 000-2,000 individuals. Not only that, but then there would be spin-offs besides that. Like other deposits, the window is open for a while but then shut if major companies decide to go elsewhere. This has the potential for being the next ma jor economic development in Manitoba. As we wait and wait, the. door becomes closer to being shut on this opportunity.

From my experience, and it has been fairly limited, but proud to say that I have been involved in a process with First Nations people in developing the first aboriginal school in the city. That involved a process where the com munity was able to mobilize and that the local government, in our case it was the school division, was able to move things very rapidly. I think one of the fundamental issues here is a matter of trust. Government has a role in being a facilitator, I think, in this process and carries baggage. Government carries baggage, I think, from years of perhaps neglect, whatever it is.

If you lived in a community where unemployment exceeded 80 percent or 90 percent, where almost everybody was desperately poor, where the water was not of good quality, where the hopes for the future looked dim, it is no wonder that the people there have huge issues of trust and do not trust government and maybe do not trust Hydro. One of the issues that I know is lingering on the table is the Cross Lake bridge. You go to Cross Lake, you have to cross via ferry. The ferry only runs at certain hours.

The bridge has been promised and promised, in fact, I understand has gone through arbitration a couple of times, and the band has actually won. Is the government prepared to build the bridge at Cross Lake? Would that not be a symbol of that trust or a gesture that we are willing to move ahead? The bridge will be absolutely essential for the people of Cross Lake even now. Given that we have, hopefully, a major mining production just on the north shore of Pipestone, is it not time to go ahead with the Cross Lake bridge? Mr.

Newman: I will use this to illustrate the complexity of this and the difficulty of this situation. If we said we are going to build a bridge, that would be regarded as paternalistic, unilateralism and they want to make those kinds of decisions. They want to have that as part of their proposals. We have encouraged them to make that part of their proposal. We have indicated indeed that that is something that we will do. We would be very interested in doing it if that is part of their plan for personal and socioeconomic development. It is part of the big picture.

I mean the whole goal here and the whole goal they are asserting is under NF A to, by agreement, do something that is going to achieve an improvement in the quality of life of their people. We share that aspiration with at least as much comm itment as they do. It is so easy to come in and say, well, here is what is best for you. Lack of trust probably comes about because that is what Premier Schreyer did in the development of the Lake Winnipeg regulation and this particular project that did the damage to Cross Lake which we are talking about today.

So Premier Schreyer and the NDP government of the day did what was best for them, and to this day, as I understand it, Premier Schreyer says they did it right, and he has nothing to apologize for and it was good for them, it is good for them. * (1 600) There were, of course, some consequences that are costing us hundreds of milli ons of dollars every time we make an effort to resolve the consequences in ways that are generally acceptable as being fair and reasonable and healing. We have done that for 80 percent of the bands and Cross Lake is the holdout. The difficulty with them is since June of 19 97 we

2794 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 have not been able to deal with them in any, what I would describe, a reasoned, good faith manner. We provide the reason, we provide the good faith, and they would contend that we are not demonstrating that. But we just do not appreciate that

interpretation, and everything that is negative that they have done to us we would regard as hurtful to the relationship when it is not reasoned or from the heart or sensitive or in good faith. So we have got a difficulty, but there are some very wise and reasonable people that are within the community and outside the com munity who are First Nations people who simply want what is best for their people. Over time, we expect they will emerge and they will prevail as has been the case with aboriginal people over many centuries. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, I guess just to clarify the record from my perspective, the loss of this deal, this titanium deposit on Pipestone is clearly in the hands of this government. It was found in the late '80s, mid-'80s, and the failure to move on the development of this deposit is not Schreyer's fault, not the NDP's fault. Ten years have gone by and as we sit there and if the door closes on this deposit, that failure will rest on the shoulders of Filmon and this Conservative government.

So to put the record straight, the failure of this deposit-and I sincerely hope that is not the case, the door is not closed, and we must make every effort to develop trust and get this deal done. But 10 years have gone by, and the people of Cross Lake are no better for it. We still wait, and words do not feed children. Mistrust and lawyers just take money out of the band and we know that. So I think that we are both aware that this deposit and the economic future would be very bright if we could move things along.

I think the record from my perspective had to be put forward, and I am quite content to move on out of Marketing. Once this deposit is ready to be sold to the world, I am sure that there are a number of interested parties, and I look forward to developing a major mineral deposit on the shores of Pipestone in the near future. I am quite confident it will be an NDP govern ment and look forward to the good days coming. Mr. Newman: I am going to be even more like that for the honourable member for St. James (Ms.

Mihychuk) who is here representing her party as the critic, the official opposition party as the critic on Energy and Mines. The Schreyer government, the NDP govern ment of the '70s, having created the lack of trust and the consequences of a development that was not done sensitively or appropriately, have in the period since June of 19 97 done nothing, nothing which would indicate to the public at large that they really do have an interest in the community of Cross Lake making an informed nonpolitical decision in the best interests of their own people.

The partici pation and the actions of the honourable member for The Pas, Oscar Lathlin, the participation and comm ents of the Leader of the official opposition, Gary Doer, and you, yourself, in relating to Cross Lake have, I would assert, taken a partisan position which is trying to tum what is happening there into an election issue.

I think it is no accident that Oscar Lathlin and Gary Doer were in Cross Lake just before this working group began its meeting, nor do I think it is any accident that you are raising this issue in the way you are in trying to suggest that there should be an accountability of the Filmon government. I believe you are doing nothing but playing politics on this issue, and it is most unfortunate because what they need is responsible, reasoned, good faith and understanding government.

The NDP, in its past performance and in its current performance through its members trying to regain of fice as MLAs of the North, and you trying to get some sort of justification for you becoming a Minister of Energy and Mines, are playing with fire here. You are doing a disservice, I believe, to the people in that community, and you are encouraging, through your politics, the kinds of politics which are not going to support the adva ncement of the individuals and the community of Cross Lake.

This is a very complex issue, and it is most unfortunate that it is being thrown into the mix of an election campaign to come. We will continue to treat the community members and their leaders with respect and good faith and hope that they will come to some sort of

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2795 consensus that does not lose this opportunity, or if they decide to lose the opportunity, they do it with open eyes and open hearts and open minds. It would be more helpful if the official opposition, rather than making this a political issue and postponing something positive happening until the election, would contribute to a reasoned, good-faith approach by the leaders of that community.

So, to the contrary, I do not think you have put anything on the record but pure effort to put responsibil ity for this issue outside the community itself, and that is where it lies. You should be empowering community members, I would submit. You should be showing respect and good faith to leaders. You should not be playing politics with them. You should be encouraging them to do what you espouse to want to do here, and that is to have them as quickly as possible make an informed decision about whether they want this opportunity to go ahead or to be suspended. Mr.

Chai rperson: Before recognize the honourable member for St. James, I would just remind the comm ittee that when they are making remarks, the comm ittee should make their remarks through the Chair and not directly at individuals. * (1610 ) Ms. Mihychuk: I am ready to move off of Marketing and hope that future discussions can stay away from laying blame.

I feel that the min ister provoked that type of politics with his comments and do sincerely hope that Cross Lake moves on as quickly as possible and gets developed and sincerely hope that we have other additional significant mmmg opportunities coming forward where the Marketing Branch can be successful in promoting opportunities for Manitobans. Mr. Chairperson: Under 23. 2. Energy and Mineral Resources (

a) Marketing

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $850,5 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $475 ,400-pass. 23.2 .(

b) Petroleum and Energy

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,537,5 00. Ms. Mihychuk: The petroleum industry in Manitoba is small but very sweet, since we like to be just like our big western brothers and sisters, and I understand that it is under water. Can the minis ter update us as to the impact of the flood in southwestern Manitoba? Mr. Newman: Mr. Chair, there has been minimal impact, I am advised, on the oil operations there, but if you do plan to go down there on a tour wear your rubber boots. Ms.

Mihychuk: The minis ter hints around my desire to go down actually on Friday and take a tour of the field and see what oil and gas is all about besides it floating and being put into my vehicle. I have some knowledge of the petro leum industry, but I have to say very limited, so I am looking forward to going out and staying on dry land and learning a lot more about the oil and gas industry in Manitoba. Can the minis ter update us as to the overall status of our petroleum industry in Manitoba? We have changed some of the tax regimes. The grant has now gone.

What impact does that have on Manitoba's petroleum industry, and what does the future look like? Mr. Newman: Effective April 1, 19 99, my department introduced royalty and tax changes for the petroleum industry. The new third-tier royalty and tax rates are being implemented as a replacement for the Petroleum Exploration Assis tance Program. Third-tier rates will reduce royalties collected on oil production from Crown-owned oil and gas rights by an average of 14 .5 percent. Freehold production taxes collected on oil production from freehold oil and gas rights will drop to 44 percent.

Royalty and tax reductions will apply to vertical wells drilled after April 1 of this year and inactive wells that are reactivated in enhanced recovery pro jects that begin after April 1. The new third-tier rates are an important financial incentive to stimulate investment and employment in our oil and gas industry. Saskatchewan and B. C. also announced third-tier royalty and tax rates in 19 98. With our new third-tier rates, we have restored the competitive advantage so critical to Manitoba's oil patch. We have also extended for another two years, until January 1, 2004, the Manitoba

2796 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 Drilling Incentive Program. This program provides a royalty or tax holiday on production from new wells and qualifying wells where a major workover has been completed. Extending this long-running program maintains our com petitive and stable fiscal regime which is the most effective way for government to encourage oil and gas investment.

I get weekly well activity reports and watch with interest as the oil prices have moved upward, compared to last year at the same time, and also do note the challenging times reflected in things like number of metres drilled, compared to even last year; the wells licensed, but not spudded, way down; the wells completed as potential oil wells, way down, compared to last year; and new wells on production, way down. I notice the negative picture when we have our lease sales. The amount we get as a premium for lease sales is way down. The amount of interest is down.

So we are going through a challenging time in relation to our oil patch. Just as with mining, we try and make sure that we are as a province well positioned in terms of the regulatory regime and the fiscal regime that Manitoba has, so that when there is a desire to invest that Manitoba will be given a favoured consider ation as well as other jurisdictions. So we are doing the right things, but we are going through a challenging time with the prices going upwards giving us every expectation that we will see more favourable results in the foreseeable future. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minis ter indicate reserve potential? This is a sector that I cannot seem to quite understand. It is a finite pool, if I understand correctly, and we had a very limi ted resource, as projected by some of the numbers that I saw. Yet annually we seem to always have the same number of years remaining. So is it that we are exploring new pools? Is the field actually big ger? What is the life expectancy of the oil and gas reserves in Manitoba as presented now? Mr. New man: At the end of 19 97, Manitoba had 4.7 million cubic metres of remaining recoverable oil reserves.

Petroleum and Energy Branch is currently in the process of completely completing the 19 98 reserve estimates. Last year, oil production totalled 634,000 cubic metres, a decrease of less than half a percent from 19 97. Based on historical production, decline rates and reserve additions from new dis coveries, Manitoba's oil production will continue for many years to come and provide jobs and income for those living in southwestern Manitoba. The branch conducts these reserve estimates annually, and so far exploratory drilling each year has added new reserves. Ms.

Mihychuk: Does the department do any active exploration? Mr. Newman: No. * (1 620) Ms. Mihychuk: Is there a requirement to keep some drill core that companies retrieve when they do a well so that we have a record of the geological formations that are being passed through? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the min ister elaborate? Do we get specimens from each well that is drilled, and is it stored at the Brady-no, we have moved that. I think it has moved to a downtown site. But those drill cores are available to interested parties, or how are they catalogued? Mr.

Newman: Yes, each well provides samples that are stored at the Midland storage site, and access to them is available on request. Ms. Mihychuk: How long have we been keeping samples of those cores, and how many wells do we have represented? Mr. Newman: I am informed that the companies provided samples which were not under the auspices of the department going back to the beginning of drilling in the province in the '50 s, but that the department then took respon sibili ty for storage of those in the '70s and have been involved in that storage responsibil ity since the early '70s. Ms.

Mihychuk: That is very interesting because it is a huge wealth of information available on the stratigraphy for geologists, universities,

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2797 others. It is a very positive thing to do. Does the minis ter receive samples from the metallic mineral industry and store those samples for the department, for the public? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: So am I to understand that the diamond drilling that exploration companies do are logged by the department? Mr. Newman: Not all cores are stored, but those that are provided and are of interest are stored. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the min ister elaborate what he means by those provided? Is that an option for industry to provide the core? If so, why?

Since apparently the petroleum industry or the Petroleum Branch recovers these cores as a matter of course, why would the min eral industry not also have the same expectations? Mr. Newman: The answer is that the provision is voluntary in the min eral industry. The rationale for that is that the volume would be so extensive that it would be an unmanageable kind of exercise. Ms. Mihychuk: Would the min ister consider making a requiremen t where the department has an ability to request certain core? There are certain geological structures that are particularly interesting.

I know that diamond drilling goes on that there are numbers, hundreds of drills, core done in a particular deposit. However, there seems to be a great deal of benefit that would be achieved if the department had the ability to retrieve some of those cores which it deemed in the public interest rather than making it voluntary. Because there may be, I am sure, instances where industry would like to keep these core as confidential as they can. * (1 630) Mr. Newman: As I say, the magnitude of the core that is drilled is so great, the practicality of doing it does not make much sense.

If there were just a requirement for certain samples or something to come forward, my information is that no one has ever requested that. I should not say no one, but I am not aware of any demand for that from the industry that had ever come to my attention. The implications of making it mandatory in the industry, given the circum stances relating to confidentiality and competitiveness, all of the security issues, the supervision issues, the enforcement issues, it would be a very complex undertaking which would require an enormous amount of, I would think, consultation and consi deration.

It is the kind of thing that if it were an idea it should be brought forward by explorationists or producers or other people interested in the industry. But so far, that has not happened. Would I proactively take a look at some thing like this? If there were any opinion, any informed opinion expressed to me that this would be in the public interest of Manitoba and mmmg exploration and development in Manitoba, I would take a look at it, but I have not had any such advice. If you are urging that as something that you would do if you were the mini ster, I suppose I would analyze it.

If you are just throwing it out as a question to me, it is just not on my agenda at this time. Ms. Mihychuk: Is there an effort to collect core from the exploration projects that receive MEAP grants? These are projects that receive between 25 to 35 percent government funding. In this case, the public of Manitoba has a vested interest in those pro jects. It may be valuable to get selected core from those projects.

The request would seem to me to come from academics and others who may be interested in the geological history more so-or even government itself who is interested in doing more comprehensive exploration-than industry itself. They, I am sure, would argue that it is more costly and it is whatever to have samples of core, but it would seem to me that the request would actually come for the public good from the academic or non industrial sector where such a library of information would be for the public good, as I say, rather than for economic interest. Mr.

Newman: You have offered some opinions, and the opinions simply do not coincide with what my staff would advise me makes sense or is desirable from the point of view of people involved in the industry or from the point of

2798 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 view of trying to attract investment and to avail themselves of the MEAP program. The implications of what you are talking about are very significant and the kind of process that any idea, if considered worthy in the public interest, the broad public interest and all the stakeholders, the process for testing that idea out is, as I say, a lot of consultation and feed back.

At this time, not enough merit has been shown for this idea to warrant it being subjected to a process, which is not to say that having that information would not be valuable to the department, valuable to beneficiaries of the information that would result from an inspection of those cores, but you have all the issues of the reliability of the samples; you have to have supervision. I mean, there are all kinds of implications, the timing. It would be an enormous exercise of government intervention which is something that we are not enthusiastic about doing in my government. That is my answer. Ms.

Mihychuk: One day when I have an opportunity, I will put my boots on and come and look at some of that petroleum core. I am fascinated that we have such a long history and such a regional sample. I do not know if that would be horribly inconvenient, but I do not plan to do it next week. Maybe some time in the future I will have an opportunity to look at it. I would be very interested in doing so. Mr. Newman: Mr. Chair, I extend an invitation to you to have a tour of the core storage facility.

You can spend many days and months and even years in there inspecting them, and I will make sure that I will be your pair in the House as a member of government, you and the official opposition, while you engage in that study. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter indi cate of the 31 staff in this branch, how many are in petroleum and how many are in energy? Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Newman: Eleven in energy, 18 in petro leum, and two are shared positions. Ms.

Mihychuk: Are the staffing levels in petroleum, have they remained constant over the last I 0 years, or has there been any change of staffing ratios, and can the min ister indi cate whether in his opinion the staffing component is desirable or does there need to be change? Mr. Newman: The staffing over the last 10 years for petroleum has been constant. Ms. Mihychuk: My second part of the question was: Is the minis ter satisfied with that level? Does he see any changes required because of new trends or new challenges? Mr.

Newman: The present situation is adequate from the perspective of my staff and myself. * (1 640) Ms. Mihychuk: This is the branch that includes energy, and this is a sector that has seen quite significant staffing changes. Can the minis ter indicate what the staffing levels were in '88 versus now? Mr. Newman: To save time, we will have to undertake to provide that information. We do not have that handy. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter indicate, of the 11 people in Energy, how many are in management, how many are professional and how many are support staff? Mr.

Newman: One management, one support staff secretary, nine technical. Ms. Mihychuk: One of the things that the Energy department does is advise the mini ster, and it does several projects, or used to do even more projects than it does now, but one of the things that it does do and we get some publicity on is the R-2000 program where houses are insulated to a degree where they are extremely energy efficient, but the number of houses that are involved are quite small. If I remember correctly, it is in the amount of 30 or 40 houses. This is like the Cadillac of insulation.

I am looking maybe more to a more populist view of getting Manitobans into an energy conservation mode, and is the department satisfied with its R- 2000 program? Are we trying to convince

June 15 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2799 people to go for the Cadillac version rather than maybe a more modest insulation program, or what is our plan on this home insulation program? Mr. Newman: Because of the way you

preambled your question, I think it might be useful to clarify that the R-2000 program is far more than an insulation program. The federal R- 2000 program began as a result of government agencies and researchers establishing criteria for high quality, super-energy-efficient houses. It has evolved over the years to include methods to improve indoor air quality and reduce overall environme ntal impacts. Regional R-2000 com mittees involving Natural Resources Canada, provincial governments, energy, utilities and home builders associations are in place across Canada.

The Manitoba R-2000 home program is operated by a comm ittee composed of Energy and Mines, Natural Resources Canada, Manitoba Hydro, Centra Gas and the Construction Association ofRural Manitoba. In September '94, the department assumed the management and admini stration functions of the program. R-2000 houses are designed and built to a specific energy performance standard. They can only be built by a builder who has undertaken R-2000 training. Each house is examined and tested before it can be certified as an R-2000 home.

Marketing efforts over the last couple of years have increased consumer aware ness of the program. The 19 97-98 fiscal year saw 34 homes enrolled, representing a 20 percent increase over the previous year. In 19 98-99, 44 homes were enrolled, a 29 percent increase over the previous year.

The 19 99-2000 program business plan defines a program mission of increasing penetration of R-2000 in all new home construction activity, which is driven by the following goals: to present all Manitoba new home buyers with the R-2000 alternative to conventional housing; to increase the number of R-2000 enrollments by 30 percent over '98-99 to 57 enrollments; to provide the Manitoba home building industry with the necessary skills to build quality R-2000 homes; and to be recognized as having the most successful R- 2000 program in western Canada.

To continue to raise the level of consumer awareness, the following initiatives will be undertaken: print advertisements, newsletters, open-house events at new R-2000 homes, new home workshops, public information service. The Canadian Home Builders' Association is a strong supporter of R-2000 and has, over the last year, comm itted itself to a revitalization of the program in all provinces across Canada. CHBA has been lobbying the federal govern ment to increase funding for the R-2000 program and has proposed a new na tional business plan for program delivery.

R-2000 builder work shops will continue to be held throughout Manitoba for the certification of new R-2000 builders and updating the existing builders. Just over 80 builders in Manitoba are registered and eligible to enroll and build an R-2000 home. Of the registered builders, about 30 are active in the program and have built R-2000 homes; the remainder just find the program's technical training advantageous. The department is in the process of evaluating the program through a survey of users and nonusers. The survey will identify potential areas of R-2000 weaknesses and strengths for future marketing purposes.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minis ter tell us, are there any R-2000 homes in northern Manitoba? Mr. Newman: I am told the answer is yes. We will get specifics of where, if you are interested. Ms. Mihychuk: Yes, I am very interested. Northern Manitoba has many challenges. One of them is kind of tough winters, and energy conservation programs up there are needed. Particularly, I would say, in First Nations communities, where some of the housing seems to be substandard. Is the department looking at any type of home insulation program for northern residences? Mr.

Newman: The Northern Aff airs depart ment and the Energy and Mines department have had a number of discussions about a housing initiative which would involve the serious consideration to expansion of R-2000 units in the North, but I just gratuitously offer that the program is significantly driven by the market-

2800 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 99 place. When a builder or a prospective home owner sees that this will attract purchasers, then the marketplace will determine this is a very attractive option. * (1 650) Again, the kind of role that we try and play, and the philosophy of our government, is to make people aware of the facts about the benefits of R-2000 and over time the better economics and health that can be derived from R-2000 construction.

So I can say this, that we are looking at ways of nudging the marketplace with some incentives, but we are very respectful of the role of the marketplace in determining who chooses these homes and where they go. You have probably noticed, as I have, in the local media there have been several articles over the past year that have been a very good dissemi nation of information about R-2000. In fact, there were two feature articles in the Winnipeg Free Press in the past two months.

I give great credit to people in the department responsible for this program because they have attracted enough attention and done enough good public relations and have enough satisfied clients out there that they want to promote the program. So I think we have turned a big comer over the past year. I know that, if you are going to Brandon next week, when you are down in the south, or this Friday, I urge you to have a look at the condominium development there that is all R- 2000 construction and is right on top of the hill there.

I handed out certificates to the people there, recognizing their investing in the R-2000 homes. They were just delighted with the oppor tunity to contribute to a more positive environ ment and climate change challenge. At the same time, we were of the belief that they were getting over time very good value out of this investment. Ms. Mihychuk: Moving away from R-2000, which, I think, is again an elitist program in building construction sort of realms, if we looked at the average home in the North, they are probably not going to look to converting it to R-2000.

If they were looking at energy conservation, they are going to need other options. I am wondering if the department has looked at the development of new initiatives. That is one of the items identified as the role of the Energy Branch, to develop new initiatives leading to energy efficiency. So for northern Manitobans, I think they in particular would be interested in some new ideas, particularly those that would be affordable and those that deal with the existing housing stock. Mr. Newman: Through you, Mr. Chair, I must take issue with the use of the word "elite" program.

I think you do a disservice to the program by saying that. Now we have to overcome that kind of message that you are sending out to the world with our marketing. You are making our department's initiative and life far more difficult with those sorts of negative descriptions of a very worthy program. But having said that, I am aware, because of my responsibili ties, for example, on the Sustainable Development Committee of Cabinet, of a number of initiatives. We have an Eco-Village concept, which has been funded in part by that, which is in the city at the moment.

We have had expressed interest for the proponents of the Eco-Village to try these innovative things in Northern Affairs communities. We are supportive in encouraging these kinds of initiatives. The role that the department plays very specifically, in less of a total package kind of way, are through education of the public. We had our department involved in two separate series of workshops throughout Manitoba for builders, contractors, suppliers, and individuals planning either to build a new home or retro fitting an existing home.

The workshops are three hours in length and are delivered by leading experts on energy efficient, environ mentally responsible home designs to promote practical, affordable tips on planning a new home or retrofitting an existing home. The New Home Workshops are structured around the technical guidelines of the R-2000 program under their design to provide clear, impartial advice on how to find a qualified contractor and avoid common planning and building mi stakes. The Home Energy Saver Workshops are designed and presented as an education forum and are typically held in the

June 15 , 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2801 evening in different communities throughout Manitoba. Three New Home Workshops were offered in Winnipeg, and 11 workshops were offered in rural Manitoba between January 26 and March 10 , 19 99. One of these workshops was held in a flooded area and three were offered in areas of the province where the workshops had not been offered in previous years. The Home Energy Saver Workshop material continually reflects current changes in the industry and were held in seven rural and two Winnipeg locations between January 26 and March 4, 19 99.

A partnership has been formed with the Federated Co-op and McMunn and Yates building centres to sponsor workshops in the communities which they serve. There is no charge to attend either of these workshops. Preregi stration is handled by the department, the Federated Co-ops, and McMunn and Yates. Both workshops are adv ertised in local newspapers in rural areas and in the Winnipeg Free Press Community Review in Winnipeg. New Home Workshops and Home Energy Saver Workshop posters were redeveloped and displayed in hardware stores and lumber stores in Winnipeg and throughout the community rural locations.

New Home Workshops flyers and Home Energy Saver Workshop flyers were distributed to residents through Canada Post and the Continuing Education version of the Home Energy Saver Workshop developed a few years ago was not being offered this year. It will be examined, however, to see if it can be revised to better fit into the program in future years. Also, Energy and Mines conducted energy audits in preliminary energy savings evaluation at the following buildings: Oak Tree Towers in Portage la Prairie; Villa Hei delberg, 33 Edmonton Street; Kildonan Horizons, 505 Monroe A venue.

An outside engineering firm conducted the energy evaluation at the fourth building in Morden. Retrofit work is nearing completion at Oak Tree Towers and Villa Heidelberg. The building in Morden and retrofit plans at Kildonan Horizons are presently on hold.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-44
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 44.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a744d83b9fdd7016db5cf9839e06ef88ef390b50

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).