Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 2, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 43

April 2, 1976 The House met at 10:00 A.~. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. J:!.R:. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) Tape 1710 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: ¥R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. m.. H. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I have a statement concerning the IB-1 Province's intentions concerning the swine influenza which has been established in North America. I will not read all of the statement. But it has been agreed that the Province will get involved in a vaccination programme.

To save the time of the House I have enough copies for everybody to see exactly what we are doing, and I will be releasing it to the press of course after the House has had a chance to read it. }'R. SPEAKER : The bon. 'Minister of Mines and Energy. rR· CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege first. This is today's Daily News, page 3. The heading of the story is, "Strachan Says Fishermen Given Blank Affidavits". Then it quotes the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary).

"Steve Neary, Independent Liberal, LaPoile says Mines and Energy ~'inister John Crosbie should have been dismissed." Well that is an excellent idea. But he went on in the next paragraph - I am ready to be dismissed at any ttme. But the next paragraph of the paper says,''ae · saic! ~r. Crosbie had run Fisheries in a "sloppy" fashion and said the department at the time had the largest shortage of funds of any department~' Now, Mr. Speaker, that statement should be corrected. There has been no shortage of funds in the Department of Fisheries. }111.. S'!-'.ALLWOOD: Nobody said it. Only the paper says so.

It was not said here in the House. MR. CROSBIE: Well that is what I am drawing attention to. Yes, exactly. I want The Daily Ne~r s to change that. There has not been any shortage of funds large or small in the nepartment of Fisheriea or any other department that I know of. So that The Daily News should correct that or the media should note it.

April 2, 1976 Tape 1710 MR. SMALLWOOD: Not only has there been a shortage, it has not been said there was. ~lR. CROSBIE: Hell, I was not here for al] the discussions and I hope that it was not sai~. Y~ . SI'.ALLHOOn: The han. gentleman should have been here. He would have loven it. AN HrlN. I-1R 'BE You have the floor. IB-2 ~IP . CROSBIE : I carried on in a most statesman like fashion yesterday, }1r. Speaker, ~irl not say a word. So anyway I would like The Daily News just to - YR. ROBERTS: ~lo wonder! You were not here. }'f'.. CROSBI E: And I have a statement then, Mr. Speaker.

So I just bring that to the attention of the House. IW.. SPl!:AKER: Order, please! I presume the hon. minister is not tabling the newspaper, is that correct? This was to catch the ear of the press gallery. Is my understanding of the minister correct? I'R. CP.OSBIE: That is not the only thing I would like to catch them by sometimes, Mr. Speaker, but that is the purpose of my submission. }'r.

Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the matter that was brou ght up here several day~ ago by the Leader of the Opposition, I want to set his mind at rest, that there is in the estimates of the Department of Transportation and Communications an amount of $750,000 as the government's share towards the cost of work that wil] he done on the Prince Philip Parkway this year. SO}~ HON . ~USE ~S : Hear, hear! MlL CROSBIE: Than"- you, thank you. There has been, ¥r.

Speaker, a rommittee of officials of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing and of the Department of Transportation and Communications which meets with the city engineer of the city of St. John's. The city has developed plans for improvements in the Prince Philip Parkway~iggins Line area. What is contemplated this year - it will take at least three years to carry out the whole programme - but this year there will be approxiQately $1 million spent. That is the estimate. And it would be work on the Parkway from the Avalon }'all 45-88

April 2, 1976 Tape 1710 IB-3 m~. CROSBIE: or Kenmount Road intersection to ~vesterland Road, and the work would consist of twinning the parkway and continuing on the four lanes, ~vo each way with an island down the middle,and work of that nature. So it is estimated that will cost $1 million of which the Province is prepared to put in $750,000 of.

Then in the next two years after that so long as we can obtain the funds, then the work would be continued to improve the Parkway right along its whole length.So that the money is there and as long as the city can come up with their $250,000, the work will go ahead. 1'1R. SPEAKER : 1'1.R. ROBERTS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you. With reference to the minister's statement, I think everybody in the Rouse and for that matter everyborly in the Province will welcome it. The Prince Philip Parkway running across the back of St. John's or what used to be the back of St.

John's a few years ago - I guess it is now really midway in the city, ~~ich seems to have grown like an onion with layer after layer coming North from the harbour; that road is one of the busiest in the Province,and it is a road where I believe the government of the Province have a responsibility over and above and beyond the normal responsibilities that the Province has towards roads within municipal areas. The 4589

April 2, 1976 Tape No. 1711 ~- 1 }-!R. ROBERTS: government,as we have all said before,are doing the right thing to agree to pay a major part ,as it turns out, three­ fourths of the cost of the work to be done this year. I am glad the w~rk is to be done this year and I would hope that this will carry on without interruption. The work I believe will cost, the estimates now are $3 million to $4 million. The Minister of Municipal Affairs nods in a confirmatory way. Those are the estimates that are being talked of,so this means about a third to a fourth of the work will be done this year. It cannot stop there.

It cannot stop with just this year's work because we still have the ·bottlenecks at either end,and the traffic on the Parkway can only get heavier and heavier and heavier, particularly when the new General Hospital opens within the next eight or nine or ten months, whenever it is to be,and that will bring 2,000 or 3,000 people a day,I understand,just driving in and out to work, not counting the people going in to visit patients or for that matter patients themselves including the emergency vehicles bringing in sick people. So the government are doing the right thing and I am glad it is in the estimates.

I hope that the Council either know about this or will be told about it officially very, very quickly so that work can go ahead. At least the Council level have experienced some frustrations they feel in this matter~and I hope these have now been resolved by the statement by the minister as to the action the government are taking this year. }-!R. COLLINS: The hon. member for St. John's North . ~. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, if not by right then perhaps by leave if I could make a very brief comment upon this ministerial statement since it directly concerns my district. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, Your Honour. On a number of occasions, Sir, in this hon. House speaking for a large group of independent Liberals in this Province I was not permitted to make a statement on behalf of these people. The precedent is there,Your Honour,and I would submit that the hon. 4590

April 2, 1976 Tape No. 1711 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: member is completely out of order. He does not represent any group of people in this House, not even his constituents. MR. J. CAFTER: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order- MR. SPEAKER: Point of order. MR. J. CARTER: - I was asking to speak by leave, MR. NEARY: No. No way. MR. J. CARTER: -not respecting any special rule. If the leave is denied,! will not speak. MR. NEARY: Sit down. No way. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member does not have the leave of the House, the unanimous consent of the House, so this is not permitted by the rules.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in answer to question no. 414,·placed on the Order Paper by the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) asking for information regarding the subsidy paid to Eastern Provincial Airways by the Provincial Government, the reply to the question indicates that the Newfoundland Government pays no subsidy to EPA but we do pay a subsidy to the passengers who use EPA, who are flying back and forth from the Labrador part of the Province to the Island part of the Province and a number of family units using this service and using this subsidy in the fiscal year passed was 2,688 family units.

This programme was administered by another department of government prior to April 1, 1975 and it referred the question on to that department for the information prior to that date. NR. MURPHY: Labrador services. MR. MORGAN: It was Labrdor Services of Recreation and Rehabilitation. MR. SMALLWOOD: Do I now have to approach that other department or does the minister? NR. MORGAN: No, I will pass it on. HR. SMALLviOOD: The minister passes it on. 4·591

April 2, 1976 Tape No . 1711 Nl'' - 3 ~m. SPEAKER: '~ . CROSBIE: Further answer s to questions for which notice has been given . A question on the Order Paper, No. 742, today's Order P:tper, ~'r . Speaker . ~<p . SPEAKER: The hon . 'linis ter of ~lines and Ene r gy . ~ . CR0SBLE: The metibers of the Board of nirectors of Labrador T.inerboard Limited are the !'inis ter of Yines and Enerr;y _, Chairman; the l'inis ter of Finance ; the Hinister of ~•an powe r and Indus trial Pn.latio ns; !\r . Rot.rard In gram , who is also the President o f the company, and :rr .

Robert Kraft of Boston , Hass achus et t~'<; the secretary to the Board of nir ectors , Mr. Jim Cochra ne , 1~ho is a Special Assistant t o myself,and t ha t is not a paid position . I mean he r,e ts paid hut he is not - ~m . ROBP.RTS: A special assistant 's position presumably is paid . AN HON. MEMBER: lie get s p a id.yo u know . !·ll . CROSBIE: Yes,a man does not work fo r oothing,but he doe.s not y.et extra . 4592

April 2, 1976 Tape 1712 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. member for LaPoile. PK- 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the gentleman who is answering for the Premier in this hon. House today, I presume it is the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, which is probably the proper minister to put the question to anyway.

In view of the fact that the Economic Council of Canada haB• recommended the Government of Canada make available $1 billion to create jobs for unemployed Canadians, will the minister indicate to the House what action the government of this Province will be taking on this suggestion? Will they be making representation to the Government of Canada either by letter, telegram or sending a delegation to Ottawa to endorse this excellent idea? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. Minister of Intergoverruaental Affairs. RON. J. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, the Economic Council of Canada is only adopting the suggestions that this government had made to the Government of Canada months ago - MR. MURP.HY : Hear, hear! SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CROSBIE: - because we have been suggesting that now for at least four months. So we certainly anticipated the Economic Council of Canada, Unfortunately we are not getting any kind of a sympathetic response.

In addition, the Province has been working on various job creation proposals and projects which are being put forward to other officials in the Government of Canada, and we are hoping to have a meeting with the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who is our representative in the Cabinet 1 as soon as that can be arranged. We have not been able to arrange one, he was away for a period of time, but liTe hope to arrange one soon in an effort to get some special programmes going for this Province.

And there is no province in Canada has a better claim in some special job creation programme than the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! 4513

April 2, 1976 Tape 1712 PIC- 2 MR. CROSBIE: However, we have not been able to get this accepted by the Government of Canada yet. The Minister of Finance at this very moment 1~ill be at the conference table in Ottawa with the Ministers of Finance asking for special assistance for the Province for job creation programmes. He made that plea at a Finance Ministers meeting approximately six weeks ago. That plea was rejected by the Federal Minister of Finance, Mr.

MacDonald, who said that there would be no special programmes of the Government of Canada for any particular area of Canada in connection with high unemployment rates, that there were no special programmes that he knew of. So that we can only hope that the Government cf Canada will have a change of mind. And I can assure hon. gentlemen in this House that we are doing everything possible to have the Government of Canada recognize its obligation to implement special programmes in the higher unemployment, higher cost of living areas of the country,of which we certainly rank among the leading ones,unfortunately.

So we will continue to work on that, and "e will report to the hon. gentleman from time to time, if there is any progress. MR. NEARY: Ur. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the minister's answer, and I wish to debate it during the late show on Thursday coming. MR. CROSBIE: Good. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Ttdllingate. MR. J . R. SMALUIOOD : Hr.

Speaker, would the minister tell the House whether the Government of Canada over and above and beyond and apart from equalization and the LIP and the OY, all the various agencies that the House knows about, is the Government of Canada coming out with anything aimed at giving any kind or amount of special aid to provinces based on their greater need for aid, higher rate, higher incidents of unemployment and so on and so 6n?

Is there anything now in the Government of Canada that the minister knows about, and t thinv I asked him as }!inister of Intergovernmental Affairs, as the minister of this government who is closest in touch, most closely in touch with the Government of Canada, have they got any kind of programme based on special need over and above the conventional things 4594 .

April 2, 1976 Tape 1712 PK- 3 Mr. Smallwood: that we all know about1 Anytning special? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, no. The answer to that question is certainlytas far as I am aware,the answer is, no. The only programmes that are in effect are the tax equalization and the other programmes that the hon. gentleman knows about. Not only that, Mr.

Speaker, but the worry is that the Government of Canada is going to cut back on the programmes they now have, because one of the matters that the Government of Canada have put forward at the present Ministers of Finance conference is their suggestion that they are going to withdraw the revenue guarantee, which the bon. gentleman will remember was instituted by them when they changed the Income Tax Act in 1971.

Their changes in the Income Tax Act were likely to result in a loss of revenue to the p~cvinces as a result of those changes in the Act, and they gave all of the provinces a guarantee that they will guarantee them against any loss in the revenue they would have gotten had the Act not been changed. Now I think this Province last year got, I think the figure is something like $20 million under that revenue guarantee. !hey are now proposing the revenue guarantee is going to be dropped. They are 4595

April 2, 197fi Tape 1713 IB-1 !'1' . C "OSll TE : no~· proposing ~-?hat appears to be more stringent changes in the equalization formula that could '"ell result in less equalizDtion rather than in more . The ferleraJ government says that equal i zation has been increasing at too rap:frl a rate. They want to change the formula. That is being discussed now. So there are danger signs tr.at 've may be worse off even in those pror.ra11lllles that are already in effect unless the provincial rovernments of Canada can persuade them out of that position.

So there are not any special programmes being suggested other than the nnes the hen. gentleman kno~'8 about. 11-!p . SPP.AKF.P: ~.., S~'AT.LWOOf': The hen. member for Twillingate. !'r. Speaker, again on the same subject, a . supplementary on the same subject. Jn cutting down the scheme of equalization pa)'ll'ents are the government of Canada cutting it down straight across the board regardless of the relative position of one province versus another,or are they reducing enualization not enuaJly?

Are they or are they not e ouali :o:inp the rerluction in equaHzntion? nr are they takin g into !l.ccount the special circumstances of one provlnce versus another? ' fl>. SPEAKE11: ~-'1'. C.P.nSBIE: The hon. ~linister of }1ines and Energy. Yr. Speaker, "t.le cannot say yet because what they are proposing is a change in the formula,or what is being rli.scussed is a change in the '''ay you calculate equalization.

The present ,.my, I think,there are tFenty-one different revenue sources included in the fo-rmula an<'. it is quite complicated of course as to hoT•' you calculate the amount of equalization to be paid each province. They are suggestinp; chanres i n that formula to some other formula which they hope w:f_ll be simpler and whi.ch will result in less rapid increases in e0ualization. I QO not think they are suggesting that they would cut.

I do not think t h at the amount of e<jualization will be cut back but the i.ncrease Hill be severel y cut back, because the amount of equalizat i on paid each year has gone up tremendously,as the hen. gentleman knows,in the last fe'·' years. 4596

April 2, 1976 Tape 1713 IB-2 _MR._ CROSBI~._:_ . But they have made no concrete proposals vet. I am sure they are yesterday and today at Ottawa but we have not got the details of that yet. So it is all being discussed now and I think there will be a First Ministers . meeting and other Finance Ministers• ." · meetings before there is anything concluded. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR . CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Industrial and Economic Development. My question, Mr.

Speaker, arises out of what appears to have been a very serious industrial accident at the shipyard in ¥.arystown. It appears to be at the moment that it will have a serious impact on that industry in the area, and furthermore it appears in some areas of the fishery,particularly the firm of John Penny and Sons, that it will have a serious impact on that plant and the area.

I would ask the minister if he could - I am a~rare that the minister may not have too much information, detailed information on the accident - but I wo~d ask the minister if he can give the House as much information as he has at the moment as to the extent of the damage and the cost,and if the management of the shipyard has given him any idea of the figures, say the length of time or the extent of the damage at this moment. NR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, that is certainly a Very important question from the hon. member.

It is very difficult at the present moment for me to give any specifics on the cost factor. Yes,! agree, I say the question is a very important question for the hon. member. He asked me could I give some details. I am trying to tell him that it is very difficult at the moment to give a cost estimate of the damage involved,or for that matter what time it will take once the damage is assessed to be able to determine the replacement or the repair or the reconstruction of any damaged capability that is in place in Marystown. I would rather not go into any detail unless we are absolutely 45·97

April 2, 197f Tape 1713 Ill-3 ~fP. Llr.IDPifJv'l: !lure of our facts . F.very s1nrle thing that could be done i s be in~ ~one right n~w to aRsess,first of all, the extent of the damage.

He have peoplc , for exal"'ple ~ fro"' fec!E>:ral public wor ks t~h" have !ln underw3ter x-ray unit - 1 an not sure if it is an x-ray unit,but it ooes enable people above the uater level to video-view what the score i s underneath. l1'e do know the r e is subst antial damage to the Synchro-lift that we can observe visu;tlly. ~le wUl know later t oc!a y,we hope,what t:he score is underneath in terms of the damage <!erne to the Synchro-lift.

The bo~t in ouest ion hns been salvaged to the extent thnt t he boa t did not sink,a nd the kinds of quick repai r s were made t o preve nt the hoat from sinki np.,but there is a struct,J r al damage that we are a\~are of. Perh aps 1n making t hat comment 1 could pay trit>ute to the work forc e . }'r. B~>rclay, ' 4598

April 2, 1976 Tape No. 1714 NM- 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: the new manager,has made the observation that he could not hardly believe the capability and the terms of the way the work force responded, the alert responsiveness of the work force to salvage the boat. Initially it was expected or thought and feared that the boat would have sunk which would have resulted in a much more e:z:t"ensive •etback for that particular company,of course,and for the yard itself, and the work force went way beyond the call of duty, and I would like that to be made known to the House, way beyond the call of duty and }!r.

Barclay himself says that he really has never seen a work force respond to a situation as dramatically as the work force in Marystown and he has been associated with similar incidents and shipyards all his lifetime. I think that should be on the record. There is no doubt in our minds that the damage to the synchro­ lift is extensive. MR. ROBERTS: Is there a warranty or any insurance7 MR. LUNDRIGAN: That is a good question, There is insurance on the vessel and on the equipment in question, tbat is the equipment capability that is there. Insurance companies have been alerted to the problem.

These people will be immediately assessing the damages and what needs to be done. The government are taking all necessary action through the shipyard - and not as a government, we are not moving in any force as a government - but the shipyard people with their management capability are doing everything professionally that can be done. The problem that we will encounter in terms of the work force is not one that relates to the construction going on in the vard itself.

I want to make that point cle••· For my own information, again I have not seen it, I had planned to go to Marystown today when the House rises at one o'clock,but the fog does not look very encouraging. MR. CANNING: I will get down there today. 4599

April 2, 1976 Tape No. 1714 IDI- 2 ~W. LlrnDRIGAN: That is okay. Well the hon. member can give me a report• He should be able to give me a report with0ut having to go down. full report. He does not have to wait to see it to give me a He is obviously a very knowledgeable man in that particular area,or he should be. In any event, finishing off my remarks, Your Honour, the damage will not effect the ongoing work in the yard, as I have been advised, and I hope I do not have to modify that statement.

What it will do is it will effect our ability to receive boats for repair and maintenance 1 and that means that it will have an effect in the short haul,but I do not anticipate that it will have an effect in the long haul. ~m.. CANNING: )"!r. Speaker, can the minister tell us the number of boats which are now on the dock that I understand the doors to the dock are gone, are blocked. ~m.. urnnRIGAN: I cannot understand the han. member. ~<R. CANNING: He know well that the door to the dockyard you cannot get up, a boat cannot get up or cannot get down.

Could the minister tell me the number of boats and the type of boat that would be on the dock now which apparently will not get down for some time? MR . LUNDRIGAN: ~'r.

Speaker, I will undertake to give the hen. member that specific information if he needs it at any given moment, What he is really suggesting is that we have lost our capability to clear the yard, to launch boats, boats that need to be launced because they are required and they are finished,and also it does maybe present the problem of impeding our ability to develop new capability or new construction in the yard because of the congestion, That is a very important question and the han. member can rest assured that everything is being done to make sure that whatever we can do in the yard in the future in terms of new work will be done, I want to say this as well~and I respect the han. member's question, keeping them pretty professional and with the best interest of Marystown 460·0 · .

April 2, 1976 Tape No. 1714 NM- 3 MR.. LUNDRIGAN: in mind,that we do not want to create the impression that Maeystown has been knocked out of commission:, Marystown is not kuoced out of commission in terms of her ability to construct. It is a bad accident, there is no denyi ng that. It .could have been much worse. It could have been a real tragedy in terms of lose of lif• had it happened jUBt minutes earlier.

There were two people injured and I hope that it is not serious, I believe the captain sustained some fractures or broken limbs, a broken shoulder bone I believe,and the chief engineer vas injured as well,but we are pleased and very happy that there was not a tragedy involved. But everything taat can be done, bearing in mind that it was an accident and there is not much we can do about that, my main concern is that we emphasize the positive that we will take whatever immediate action is required as urgently as we can as a yard and as a government to make sure that we do not lose any more than we will lose.

It is not a positive thing for MarJstown, but I hope that Murphy's Law will discontinue to exist after this particular incident. 4601

April 2, 1976 Tape 1715 PK - 1 ~ffi. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A supplementary. HR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I address the supplementary to the same minister. I diD, of course, particularly interested in the disposition of the vessel itself, because it affects a fish plant capability in my own district, in Ramea. I wonder would the minister just indicate if he is aware at the moment, or if not· . would he undertake to determine whether the boat would still be functional for the purpose intended, and if so, which I hope, what kind of time period is involved to put the Penney Hope back into proper shape? }Ul .

SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN : Mr. Speaker, I am a little reluctant to be able to say that because I have not been advised specifically on it, and there might be questions of insurance or some problem that might relate to conflict between the various groups, the insurance and the owners in terms of whether the vessel is in fact satisfactory and acceptable.

I do understand that the vessel has been badly damaged not only in terms of the holes in the superstructure, but also in terms of the stern of the boat where she was hit pretty bad and it knocked out the prop and there are still leaks in that particular area. So I do not think I am competent to make that co~ent but I will enquire and make sure that the han. member is properly advised . MR.SIMMONS: The minister is not suggesting that there is any possibility that boat will probably be written off though? MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SIMJ'\ONS : !1R. LUNDRI GAN : They never made that suggestion. No .

But I certainly hope that is not the case. ~Ul. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) : The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice. P.R.. SMALLWOOD : Would the hon. member allow me to ask a supplementary? MR. NEARY: A supplementary, yes sure. !ffi. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A supplementary. The hen. member for Twillingate. 4602

April 2, 1976 Tape 1715 PK - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD : Would the minister- the minister is, of course, aware, he must be aware that the synchro-lift was hUilt by the Government of Canada, It was the Canadian Government's contribution to the great shipyard that the Newfoundland Government built, but the Canadian Federal contribution was the synchro-lift. I know that it is not because the Government of Canada contributed the synchro­ lift in the first place that they are

now therefore responsible for its replacement or repair. Hae the minister given some thought or will he give some thought to approaching the Government of Canada and telling them that their synchro-lift has been damaged and there is an estimated cost of restoration. And then secondly, would he give the House the government 1 s assurance.- speaking in his place as the minister for the government - the government's assurance that there is no thought of slowing down that shipyard, she is going ahead as rapidly and as well as is physically and financially capable. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon.

Minis~er of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, first of all on the first part of the question, the synchro-lift was built during the administration of the bon. gentleman, starting off in 1966. The bon. gentleman will remember himself that in 1968, I believe it was, that the synchro­ lift system was passed over to the Province or to the yard, so it really is the property of the yard at the preseat moment as a contribution of the - to use the word "infrastructure" - of the area by the Federal Government.

We hope that the insurance can accommodate the second part of the hon. gentleman's question in terms of the replacement and getting the thing back in shape, the sypchro-lift. And, thirdly, in terms of new work or work that can be attracted, I 4o not feel, and again I am speaking as the minister and not as the manager of the yard,that we should show down at all in terms of trying to attract work. As a matter of fact we have bid on several various specific contracts in recent weeks, one of them in South America, on nine s~rimp boats,which I have already indicated to the House.

They are not large boats, they are boats that we can build. I do not think there 4603'· ·.;

April 2, 1976 Tape 1715 PK - 3 Mr. Lundrigan: 1nll be any impediment at all in the yard for us being able to receive that contract should we be able to elicit it. We have had tremendous co-operation from the Export Development Corporat i on , from the hon . the melllber for the area, who is also the ~tinister of Industry , Trade and Commerce. We bid on other boats in other areas, and I hope that there is no possibility that tbe yard will lose work that we might be able to get because of that particular incide nt. MR . SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The bon . member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the - MR. SPEAKER (OR. COLLINS): I am sorry, a supplementary, the bon. member for Fogo. 4604

April 2, 1976 Tape 1716 IB-1 CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the hon. the minister. Would he endeavour to find out where - there must be an area of responsibility now towards the ships that are on that dock and cannot get out. There will be a lo~s of earnings. Does the shipyard carry an insurance to that effect? Because if the yard is responsible for the lack of earnings on the ships that are there ready to go into water it may amount to a great sum of money. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. ~'IR. LllNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I could not give any answer to what liability might exist on the part of the yard for delay in delivery or delay in delivery which might result in a fishing activity. I could not give an answer to that. It is an important question. My main concern,while answering that type of question,is while being aware of what problems might result as a result of the accident we want to concentrate all of our engeries as much as we can on trying to get the thing back in shape and to get whatever employment and whatever work it will attract for the yard in place. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: I would like to ask the Minister of Justice, Sir, if he would tell the House why the High Court was stymied yesterday for the second time I beli~ve in a week in selecting a grand jury and why there is such a shortage of jurors on the list, potential jurors? MR. SPEAKER: :MR. HIOO!AN: The bon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, the Supreme Court was not stymied twice in a week with respect to getting a grand jury. The problem is one that has occurred before. Some years ago, back in, I think, 1971 or 1972 the Judicature Act was amended to make women eligible to serve on juries.

But there is a provision in the act that any lady may upon receipt of a summons to appear or to serve on a jury, be it a grand jury or a -pet-it jury, may claim exemption and she is automatically exempt. 4GOS.~ .. '-..

AprH 2, 1976 Tape 1716 rn-2 ~-IT' .• Hl('l{};/IN : T.ast ••eek,for th:ls particul<!r grand .1ury -and in the beg:lnning han. members w:lll recall there were problems. On both January 15, 1973 and January 23, 1973 a full panel could not be s~orn in for that reason and there was a further amendment to the act to increase the nmnbers of d tizens who were eligible to be summoned for grancl jury . The only other t:l.!'le - parclon? ><R. n.OBERTS: There were other occasions. ~fP. . H!CKI'AN: I was going to come to that.

The only other time that they have been unable since that time to have a full complement of people turn out in order to compose a grand jury was in f'lcto!-Jer, 1074. In four jnst <mces all told, two in the January, 1973 which we attempted to clear by legislation, one in October 1974 and the other Apr i l 1, yesterday, 1976. }ffi . MURPHY: DC? they still sent: out the su11I111ons? m:. HICKJ ~AN : If the hon. gentleman will let me finish! Last week,in accordance with law, seventy-~~o summons were served on ci.tizens of the St. John 1 s area to serve on a grand jury.

Now a grand jury is compri s ed of twenty-three citizens. Of the seventy­ t wo servecl, t "•en ty-three out of the seventy-t wo were - there may have been more fena1es - but at least twenty-three females subsequently filed Hith the court their exemption. That reduced it to forty-nine. 1\l ineteen could not be served. They had e:lther left the c1.t y or they had moved address s:lnce the jury list was taken last year. AN HON. YEI'BEJ' : How often is the list taken? ~ -'P . "!l:ICI(}!AN: It is taken every year, ~·r.

Speaker, in accordance '~:I th the law , and in fact . again, 1f the hon. gentleman will recall, we amendec1 the Judi.cature Act at the last sitting of the House so that the jury l:lst could be taken very qu:l.ckly each year. That reduced :It to thirty. Then it was discovered that, 1 th:lnk,two or three t•ere si ck , and four of the persons surunoned discloserl to the court that they were in 11 category that lvas e~empt. They wer.e ci.vil servants.

April 2, 1976, Tape 1717, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: Apparently when the Grand Jury list was taken the occupation had been given as clerk,but it was discovered when they appeared in court they were clerks ~11 right, but they were also in the public service. That reduced it to below twenty-three, but I understand a new Grand Jury will be summoned next week. All of this may be very academic, Mr. Speaker, because two years ago, hon. gentlemen will recall, when there was a major amendment to the Judicature Act restructuring the Supreme Court, there was provision in that Act abolishing the Grand Jury.

All provinces except ~ova Scotia have abolished the Grand Jury, but before that can be proclaimed and become law it is necessary that there be an amendment to the Criminal Code of Canada. My under­ standing is, and the advice that I have received from Ottawa sometime ago was that that amendment was in the works. It may very well have been in the bill that was assented to yesterday or the day before in the amendment to the Criminal Code of Canada. But there will be - again for the information of the House - the Grand Jury list is compiled each year under the direction of Chief Magistrate Hugh O'Neil • .

It is taken every year and it is taken by two senior members of the Newfoundland Constabulary. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary to the minister, Sir. A supplementary. Is the minister aware that Chief Justice Mifflin was strong in his condemnation yesterday of being unable to select a Grand Jury; and highly critical of the Minister's department? If the minister does not know,would he send for a transcript of Chief Justice Xifflin's remarks for this House, where he implied that the administration of justice in this Province was falling apart? ~IR. RICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, far be it from me to comment on any comment that is made by any judge of Her Majesty's Courts. MR. NEARY: Will you get the transcript? MR. HICRMAN: I do not need the transcript at all. The Chief Justice expressed a great deal of i~ritation over the fact - not with the 4607

April 2, 1971', Tape 1717, Page 2 -- apb ~!JL HICKMAN: adminstration of justice but that the laws that exist today allow for so many exemptions. You cannot fault the administration of justice when seventy-two citizens are summoned to do iury duty and vou wind up with less than twenty- three. "'R • NI'A RY : Well will the 111inister 11;et a transcript for fTle? 1 "ould like to have a look at it. ''IR. llTCTO!AN: Tf the hon. p,entleman wants a transcript he can r.o down to the court today - l!R. NF.ARY: ~o,I cannot go down. I certainly cannot. ''ffi.

RTCK-'~AN: The hon. 11;entleman can fo down to the court the lat.; preRcrihes very clearly - pay ten cents a folio or fifteen cents a folio, ask the Clerk of the court - >~. NEARY: I tried to get a transcript yesterday. I could not r,et it. 'ffi. PICK'IAN: - as the Clerk of the court for a transcript of the comments of the learned r.hief Justice - ~m. CROSTliF.: And you 1dll get it next year. HTL l!TCKHAN: No, - ----- you will get it. 'IR. NEARY: No, I want the minister to get it for me. MR. HTr.K'lAN: But these are the facts. Mr. Speaker, these are the facts.

He could not - l!R. ~!F.ARY: !~ill the minister get me a. copv of the transcript? "fR • HI C!Ol AN : He coulrl not empanel a Grand Jury yesterday. Seventy-t,~o citizens from the St. John's area were summoned to do iury duty, to <lischar!'(e their resoonsibilities as citizens ,and He Houncl up with only thirty in the courtroom. l'r.. NF.A RY : Would the minister get me a transcript? ~m. HICKMAN: No. If you want it f.O get it vourself. HR. SPF.AKF.R: This will be the last question of the Question Period. The hon. the memher for Trinity-Bay de Verde. ~!R . l'.ll.nmrP. : I am all day tryinp, to get up.

Now I am up T ito not - l 'P 'ROHF.RTS: ~lnw vou arP up you prohahlv forp;ot tl1e oueRtion. ''!? F. Tl. RnloT!'' ~To, T do not knC'P Hhich one to aRlc nol'. 4 6().8

April 2, 1976, Tape 1717, Page 3 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I am sure he is aware of this system of double taxation that we have been talking about recently with respect to people having to pay a tax in a waste disposal area, and one in another incoroorated area where they work.

The minister indicated some time ago that he was planning to have his officials look at these regulations and I was wondering if the minister could indicate to the House if and when legislation would be brought into this House in order that people living in unincorporated areas -- or waste disposal areas, and working in incorporated areas will not be subjected to double taxation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs anrl Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as a result of representation last year by people in areas as related by the hon. member, I undertook to study the situation.

After studying the situation I prepared the proper legislation which came to Cabinet and it is now at the Department of Justice being drafted. After it is drafted it will be given notice in the House and then we will have a full chance to discuss the legislation, the changes that we propose to try to eliminate the situation that the hon. member has just mentioned. MR. F.B.ROWE: I thank the hon. minister. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, ·would the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, indicate to the House - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The Question Period has terminated.

April 2, 1976 Tape 1718 fH'nf'T'S 0J? THE nA": IB-1 ~'P. SPE.i\KEP : }'ot.iCln 4, the Motion concerning the o11 refinery nt "oMe Ry ~h,:mce, The bon. Leader of the Opposition arljourned the debate last day. The hen. T~ader of the Opposition. !.:!'_,_ P.01\El''~'S: Thank you, "r. Speaker, f..s Your Honour hrts just sai cl T nrljournerl the c'ehate t1·m or three minutes rtfter T beRan n1y rel'lilrks on Tne!"rlay for t~h<lt I expected,an<'l I thirk most if not all me..,bers o:" the !louse expected ~muld be a fairly brief c'i sct1ssi ,on on the Tntedrr Supply lli 11.

That was Tuesclav nfternoon and t'hen we had Tuesclay eveninp,. Pednes(l<' .y of course •'e rlealt vlith Private t'emhers motions. Then on Thursrlay, yeo;terday, ' ' e had the nfternoon, we had the evening and finally we have cleaned up the Interim Supply. So here we are back to the rome Tiy Chance thing. "'r. Speaker, I would like to begin by saytng a few words,if I might 1 t·1ith respect to the points macle by the ~'inister of ~rfnes and Ene:q!y about rnec'in covenwe and the ~;entlemnn from Twilltngate (~'r.

Small~<oocl) - not in this c1ehate,hecause of C'.ourse he has not as yet spol<en in t11is clebate, but in another debate in the !louse - 1'1ace eRsent.iall)' the snme points. Both of them, l 'r.

Spea}:er - and indee~ it is true,I ruess,that politics mal~e stranr;e beclfeJJ.oHs because it is not of.ten these two r;entJemen agree on very much - hot!J of them 11'rt<'c essentJ;~ny the same complaint, that the speeches of the House t·:en' pot beinr covererl nclecwatelv,wtdch is ;~nnther way of sayinr. that tl1ei r speec],es •·•ere nc>t bein[': cove reel in 11 manner which in the op:l.nion of these rne!'1hers was arleauate. l'r. Spenker, I do not challenge t't>eir rjr,ht tc> their opinion but I \JouJcl,tv:l.th respect,cliffer.

I, for one, think that the 1;1eclia coverage of the House of Assembly this year h11s been an improvement on previous years. Anc that may be M ttnorthoc'ox vie'"' hut since it h;-,s been raised in this clebate ann since I believe it :Is re1ewmt to this debate perhaps I might be alJ m~ed to say a ,,•orc:l or two about it. It is true, it :Is incontestably true, that the merlia are giving infinitely Jess time in the case of the broadcast media or sp11ce in the c<~se of the print media to what is saicl in this !louse. That is 4610

April 2, 1976 Tape 1718 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS : true. There used to be a time four or five or six years ago when you could pick up The Evening Telegram in the afternoon, }!r. Speaker, and it was like reading Hansard. Almost every word uttered in the chamber had been copied down by a reporter from The Evening Telegram and had been reproduced in the paper the next day. It was almost like reading Hansard. In fact, as I understand it, that is what Jhe T*legram had in mind. There was no Hansard published in those days.

It was compiled and it was taken down,the debates were recorded, the debates were transcribed. l!iss Katherine Murphy, Kit Murphy~who has since retired,transcribed them, and maybe she had some stenographic assistance, but in any event the debates were transcribed. And I believe there are still in existence - and I hope there are - transcripts, typescripts of all those debates. But they were not pub]ished. Indeed I think it -the 1958 Hansard recently appeared, a mere eighteen years late.

Then about 1970 or 1971 the publication of a daily Hansard was - not resumed - was bagun and since then on a more or less regular basis we have had a daily Hansard. But in any event in those halcyon days that the minister referred to,The Teleeram dtd cover just about everything. And you could come into the House in the afternoon, Mr. Speaker, and many members did, just as we do today and read The Telegram, sit there during a speech, and while somebody was trying to heave it out of them, you would be reading what the paper had to say and you would read almost every word reproduced there.

The same way essentially with the electronic media, r.JON, CBC, VOCM, the three edectronic media who regularly cover the proceedings of the House. Almost breathlessly VOCt-! would have a House report. CBC,I think,would have a House report and then in their major newscasts there would be quite extensive coverage. Well this year that is not happening. Well,take last evening. I did not see all of the CJON newscast because as Your Honour is intimately aware 1 I am sure,it coincides with the CBC newscast. If you want to watch the CBC National News on the television and get some brief idea of what is happening across

,\p-ril 2, 1?76 Tape l718 IB-3 'T. !'fi3P.l1TS: r:~n<t<'.:t, then you arl' fl)rcecl to miss most of the CJON ne~o.•s . Ynu can onl y pet th(' henc'lines. You 8Ct ''r. I.ewis, ·•r . llob l.ewis reading the he~~tllines :md them you s..,itch over and there is whoever 1.!1 rea ding the {:tr l':tJ .ionnl !~liS from Toronto that aft('rnnon. It fs f:ive o'clock tn the nfternoon there ,.hen they rea cl :ft nnd you hear what ;is saicl , and t~en s:fx nr seven nr eight o-r whateve-r it \s minutes later the local ne~o:s, UR11ally l'r • .&oh rol e,comes on and you get six o-r seven or eir,hc or nine Mfnutes before you get Jennifer,and Jennifer is 4612

April 2, 1976 Tape 1719 PK- 1 Mr. Roberts: usually well worth the 'wait, her forecasts are interesting and it is very pleasant to see her back. Mr. Speaker, the CBC news last night,as I recall it - MR. MORGAN: Is this involved in the debate? MR. ROBERTS : Yes, it is, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Mines and Energy raised hhe matter and I am responding to it, and I would ask the gentleman from Bonavista South, Mr. Speaker, to confine himself to conduct within the rules. The rules make it quite clear that the member who is speaking has the right to speak without interruption. And the gentleman - MR.

MORGAN: If he would say something, we would all listen. MR. SPEXKER (MR. YOUNG) Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, the gentleman from Bonavista South may not be aware of the rules, but I know Your Honour will remind him and I believe I have correctly enunciated the rule~ Now the point that I was making is that the CBC news last night, I believe its coverage of the House was restricted to the coverage of , or a report of a statement made by the Minister of Mines and Energy, and it happened in response to a question which I had offered up to him, one of the nice easy ones that is put across the House from time to time, the statement he made or the answer he made to my question about events at Churchill Falls.

And as far as I recall it, that was pretty well the total coverage of what happened. There might have been some reference to some of these statements made by the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I do not know what today's Telegram will have, today's ~ haa not got much more, and I will wager the CJON news last night was essentially the same, fhe two major news services. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is what is happening, and I think that is probably a good thing. I am not going to be one of these mealy­ mouthed Uriah Heep pariahs who think we should be ashamed of this House.

There are men who enunciate that, and I have no doubt they believe it, but I think they should be ashamed of themselves for holding that view. !hey should be trying to make the House better. 4613

Tape 171 9 l'I~ - 2 ~~~c rt s: But any~·ay it is not for me to take the Uriah Heep attitude. But what I do thtnk is happening, and what I think is right,is that the nedia at long last are bringing some considerable editorial jud~l'lent to bear on politics and on statements hy politicians. The Hinister of Justice is nodding acquiescence, and I take it for once that he and I are in agreement on a point or on a statement. For many years in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, you know, and it is the only part of Canada to my knmvledge where this happens, almost anything a politician says is covered at length, particula•rly on the weekends, and anyb111dy who wants to play this game can, particularly if you ring up and give the stations a little recording, the radio stations. You know, you will get much more coverage often than the statement merits.

But I think - and this has happened in the last few months, and I think it is a very good thing all of the media_ I am not sure if they have taken it as a group, I doubt if j t is a collective decision .• but they all seem to have come to the same clecisionJ and a good one it is, to start judging statements by ministers or by members or by politicians on the merit of what is said in the statement. And that is what is happening to the House coverage and I think that is a very good thing indeed. I believe our speeches in this House are much too long.

I say that as I am about to make what may well be an hour or an hour co.nd a half speech, but I think it is an important subject and I will he the lead speaker on this side and I will be by far the longest spe aker on this side. Our speeches are far too long. Our procedures are too sloppy, our proceedings are too diffuse. Take the Interim Supply debate. All of this is in order.

But the idea of spending -we h~tve spent,lvhat'~ I have not asked the Clerk, but eight or ten or t\Velve hours on a motion that was essentially procedural, saying things that could have been t::aid and should have been said either in the Budget dehate - I am not saying anything that carne up should not have been said - I am not saying that. The gentleman from 'l'l~illingate (Hr. Smallwood) made a speech, an interesting speech, an excellent 4614 •

April 2, 1976 Tape 1719 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: speech, but one that should have been made on the Budget debate, which will be called, it must be called. The House cannot adjourn without the Budget having been put and debated. A marvelous speech. I do not agree with very much of it, but an interesting speech, a different point of view, but it should have been made on the Budget debate. The gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) made a number of speeches, and made some statements,exposed some abuses. My friend from Conception Bay South (Mr.

Nolan) exposed them far more effectively, in my view, but the fact remains that they came out. But those speeches could have been made on the estimates,and they should have been made. And the point is, of course, that the time on Interim Supply has been taken away from the already drastically reduced time available for all of supply consideration. But that is another story, and what is done is done and capnot be undone. My point though, Mr. Speaker, is that we should look at ourselves, we should look at the proceedings in this House. We should look at the way in which we do business.

We should look at the fact that we have now been sitting for forty or forty-one days in this House, we have not even got beyond the third speaker on the Throne Speech, - no I am sorry, the second speaker on the Address in Reply. The speech was moved and seconded to appoint the Committee, that was done on opening day. 4615

Anril 2, 197f;, Tape 1720, Page 1 -- aph Since then vle have hac! a fairly lenr;thv Rneech from me, and <7e have had what appe<1.rs to he an unendinp; Sfleech underway fro:n the r,entleman from Twillingate (Hr.Smallwoon). \'e nre nebating a substantive motion now on the Come By Chance thinr;, and as the r;entlem;m from LaPoile ("'r.Neary) has pointed out, we are doinr; it well after the fact. 1t is interesting hut it is all academic.

Tf we hac! any power, if the government had any ability to intervene in the Come By Chance situation, and it the House had any oninions to he expresse'l that were of any value in that purpose, they ~re of no value now. The creditors •d 11 meet on ''ondav. I wiJ J be there. The Liberal Party is a creditor of the Ne<vfoundland Refining Company. I declare that as well hecmtse there might be a conflict of interest. I w;mt everybody to know that I al'l obviously an interested party. Ue are right up there, Mr. Speaker. The clerks and people have sent us the official notice, all the forms have heen filled out.

The creditors include Ataka vrith $5),803,000 they nre o•~ed. Thev are unsecured. Then there are a number of other neople who are unsecured. As a matter of fact, there are Hin 1~ho are unsecured accordinr: to the list which the receivers have nut up. There is a firm in ~le1v York called Gotass-Larsen that is owed ~q million: the Department of Forestry and Agriculture here in St. John's is owed $22.95; the Credit Bureau of St. John's js owed S7.00 1 anc1 the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador are owed ,qQ(1. ~ ~.ROHE: They did pay the other parties. Die! they nay? I do not know.

That $100 if for the - there is nothing mysterious about it - it is for an a~vertisement in the Liberal Ball programme last year,and it has not he en naid and I p;uess we will have to 1vrite it off. vJe an• not a buisness. '!'he Liberal Party~like the l'C 1'arty is not a busj_ness. Fe have no revenue against which we can offset losses f.or tax purnoses. Dn the other hand, we are not liahle for taxes. MR. D00DY: You are not a preferred creditor. . 4616

April 2, 1976, Tape 1720, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: No. The minister just reminds me we are not a preferred creditor and that is quite true. Neither is Mr. George ~!cLean who is in for $28,000, or a lot of other people who are in. We take our stand with all the other unsecured creditors, and I do not think that when the Financial Committee of the Liberal Party meets, I do not think we will expect to get very much back on that $100. But I am going to go off to the creditors meeting representing the party, which is essentially a non-profit educational institution in the corporate world.

The unsecured creditors total $76, 757, 633. 33- that is Newfoundland Refining - according to the statement put out by the Clarkson people who have been appointed receivers. And of that $76,r 757,00r, as I have said, Sir, $100 is owed to the Liberal Party of this Province. We are in good company, Sir. I see that Yusuf Ben Ahmad Kanoo of Dubai in the United ArabEmirates, is owed $31,000. The Waldorf-Astoria has a credit,apparently, of $21.69. Some very fine law firms are here. I though I saw the Dewey Ballantine firm. Collier Shannon, there is no amount listed for them. That is a firm in Washington.

The gentleman from Twillingate (l1r. Smallwood) referred to Mr. Robert Collier who I believe is the senior partner in that firm, the same gentleman. Curtis, Dawe and Fagan are dowri for $32,000. They act, I believe, for the Shaheen companies. It is a quite interssting thing. There it is anyway. Then, of course, there is Provincial Refining but we are not owed anything there. Mr.

Speaker, the point I was making, and I think it is a very valid one, is that if the media coverage in this House is not what w~ expect it should he,we should take Shakespeare advice that the fault dear Brutus is not in the star$ but in ourselves. 11R. F. B. ROWE: Hear, hear! HR. HICKMAN: The hon. gentleman knows that in most parliaments there are a lot - of conventions that are not rules at all. ~ 4617

April 2, 1976 Tape No. 1721 l'f1\. ROBERTS: '.~ell,of course. in this House there were many conventions that are not rules,although conventions bec0me rules, you know, they become precedents. Our whole finance procedure is nowhere spelled out,to my knowledge, not in Standinr, Orders or anywhere else. But there is a very - NM- 1 last evening the Committee rose at five to eleven, after an extensive debate,and then we gave the resolution three rea~ings in the House,and we gave the bill three readings in the House.

Not<here is that spelled out in our Standing Orders or in our rules, but I would sut>mit that is as established as if it were engraved in tablets of bronze on the main door of the building because of precedents have been established. We do not debate the supply bills except in Committee and I think if any members stood to debate it in the House he would be up against an insuperable barrier. But that may not be the point the minister was dealing with. Y.R . IIIC IO'AN: I am told that in the Province of Nova Scotia their Legislature by tradition opens forty days before Good Friday. "'R.

P.OBEl'TS: Forty days before r~od Friday, that is pancake Tuesday,is it not? Or is it? I do not know. HJ<. llTCKJ-'AN: Hhenever it is. ~P.. P.OHERTS: Shrove Tuesday, that is pancake Tuesday for the Protestants, ye~. '<]>. IIICKl''A."': They open at a certain time purely ~y tradition, but also by tradition they finish the business of the House the day before the Good Friday. Hell I do not know if our sessions are too long. I mean the amount of business being considered is - 11'1!..

HH'IO'A ' : So obviously there must be a fair number of conventions as to length of debate without putting them in the rules. nur proceedjngs are much too diffuse. i do not think they are suited to the modern age. There was a select committee a couple of years ago that tinkered but did not do the job that in 4618

April 2, 1976 Tape No. 1721 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: my view it should have done. It did restrict, you knm~,over our metaphorically speaking dead bodies the debate on the estimates. I would rather see us go at it a different way and set up a couple of committees, refer estimates to , committees so that you can have a more, you know,a broader ranging discussion, perhaps have officials respond to questions, as it is done in nttawa,and then have a number of Opposition days set down where the Opposition can raise matters in debate and then at the end of the day,as in Ottawa, at the end of the second day the vote is put.

And I think we should also shorten our speeches. We have come down from the halcyon days when the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition could go on as long as voice would last, and in the case of some premiers or some opposition leaders that would be a very long time. ·We have come down out of ninety minutes which is still an immense amount of time. I am told in the United Kingdom Parliament in Westminister, Mr. Speaker, twenty minutes is a major speech. The gentleMan from Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) 1 reading us one of his lectures last night, you know sitting himself up and saying;'I thank thee that I am not as other men," but in reading that lecture he referred to some speeches of Sir,Winston Churchill, and Churchill's war speeches were great speeches indeed, very great speeches. But if you Tead them,Your Bonour 1 you will find there- and I looked up some last evening at home. Over the years I have managed to acquire what I think is a complete set of the published speeches of Churchill - you know, they are ten pages, eight pages, six pages.

The Gettysburg Addre~s is,what, 1976 words, probably one of the most magnificent speeches ever made. And interestingly enough,for the comfort of the Minister of Mines and Energy, at the time it was not reported. President Lincoln was not the main speaker, if that is conceivable, that the President of the United States at an official function would not be the main speaker, but 4619

pril 2, 1976 Tap e ~o . 1721 NR . R01lEI:Tfo: he was not the mai.n speaker at the dedjcaticm of the cemetery a t Get.tysh urg "here he made his,you kno;.•, W,-1 - 3 " '~'' our score and seven yea rs ago •.. " that speech. The newspapers of t he day re?oporte d the main speaker at some lenr.th a nd then, you kn.m.J, President Lin coln also spoke .a.nd of cou"t"se the loettys urg Address has hecom e one of the grea t add1:esses. nut 1 am becomi n g diffus e now and I am hecomjng lengthy nn.d ; r.uess J am a s prone to it as anybod y else .

But the poi nt I tldnl · i~< a v11lid one, Sir, and it needs to be ~el l made. l do not th:!nl : t he media, i nde ed it might l'>e very much to t he advantage of vecy member of the !louse, Sir , that 1~e are not re"{)orte<j at e re:rt leng th and ~ ·e are not re ported wj t h complete accuracy. M" . lll.CK Not reported tot ally . "fl<. ROBE ,TS : 1/ell , I think there are many funct i ons of the House other than be tnr. reported .

T thin k the reportin& s a very importa nt part o( the llo usc ,but even if tl1ere 1·rere no r epo1:ting and even if no.bod y in the Province was the least bit inte rested in wha t goes on, then 1 think that there still is a very real purpose for the Rouse and - lt might be shorter. t·11l .

OllF.RTS: Hel l,it might be sho"I"tened but I think since we arc no noing to restrict report j nr, I think we sho uld discipline ourselves, and I think the way to discipline our selv es is to make s ome maj or changes 1.n our rules ,and make some maie r changes i n our rules by shorte ning speed ,e.s, by shar:peninF. our procedures - 'ORCA."!: Short en everythi nr;. - ·~. SPEAKER (MR . V0lWG) : Order, please ! 4620

April 2, 1976 Tape 1722 IB-1 HR. ROBERTS: If the han. gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Norgan), t'r. Speaker, can control himself! Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman feels I am out of order he of course has the right to raise a point of order. And if he does not want to raise a point of order, Sir, I would ask him please to observe the rules of the House. Now that is the second or third time I have had to ask him. I do not intend to engage in repartee with him on this occasion because when I am shooting for elephants, Sir, I am not going after mice. Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. ~~organ) will just control himself, and when he speaks I shall listen with interest to what he has to say.whether I agree with :l.t or not. I am dealing with some comments which were made earlier in this debate by the Minister of Mines and Energy,who made his comments without interruption,and I would ask the same courtesy.

If the ~~inister of Transportation and Co1TU11unications does not want to extend me that courtesy, Sir, and does not "ant to observe the rules, I would ask him to leave the House and maybe he could go and try to get some roads repaired because, of course, that is what he should be about right now. Hr. Speaker, I wanted to make those preliminary remarks because I thought they were to the point. I thought they were relevant. It is interesting to note that the Hinister of Mines and Energy on Tuesday made this - not attack - but made this comment on the press reports of the House.

Some of the media reported his comments on the press as being news,which I suppose they were. But The Evening Telegram on Hednesday as far as I could see did not even mention that the minister had spoken. If you had read The Telegram on Wednesday and nothing else you would not have known there had .ven been any mention on Tuesday in this House of the Come By Chance matter at all. :MR. MUFPHY: I sometimes hope our wives believe us when we tell them that we have gone to the Rouse of Assembly to take

part in what happens. }ffi . NEARY: Especially at night. 4621

flprH 2, 1976 Tar>e 1722 Ill-2 1'1'. l'Ollfl'TS: Fell the hon. r,entlem.::m h11s raised an interesting "['Oint, n11rticul arly when the 11ouse sits until eleven. That is not as ban as the rlays 1.rhen the House user'! to sit all night and one Twuld come home .:::t ei~l>t or nine in the Morning saying, "1 was 11t the House." }1y friend frotl' llurgeo (Hr. Simmons) hacl an interestinf instance alonp.: those Jines the other rlay. /1 constituent ca)le<J for me - no,my frienc1 from !'nr,o (r,a"('t.

Hinsor) ••as it - a constituent callerl our office for him ;~nd Pi'S tolcl, "Oh, he is not here right now, he is in the !louse." So Hhen he gets horne h j s wife hail a phone ~all from the const:ituent s11yinp,, "Hhere is our member, we '•'ant to talk to him." l"'. ~!T ' PPHY: lie tal<-e too much for eranted. 1111ite ri r,ht. Hell we do.

The Yin:'-ster of Provincial Aff;l.i .rs is He take too much for granted. ~;e have all hac1 the experience of ~;alking across the lobby of the House at some "['Clint T·rhen we h<>ve been meeting for clays and think T•re are solvinr all the problems of the Tmrld,or at least debating them,and somebody in the l obhy says, "Hm• are you? PJ,en is the House going to meet?'' you knm.•, and it h"s been p:oing on for forty clays and forty nights. "r.

Speetker, let mr.> then carry on with soMe remarks on this. '~'he fjrst thi.nr T Tvant to sHy, ~ir, is that th:is is an unusual debate, :md tl1e resolution tells \!!" th11t it 1s an unusual debate,an<1 it is an ~tnu s ual neb11t-e i.n that "e 'lre c'liscuss:lng, inevitahly. the 11ffairs of a priv11te cornp11ny; 11 company that ~~as formerly fl Crown corpor<~tion hut is nm,r " private comp>~ny, ;mel is now bankrupt, or twn cowpan:ies, r rovinci<>l t>efininr,, :Is it, thev are caller',and Net.;foundland l'ef:l.n:lnr, rompAnv T,irni tec1.

Rut even though they are pri.vate companies, the 111<ltter, T helieve, is one of p:reat public interest and importance and I believe it j s important that i.t should he r:lebaten here in this llouse. I think '"'e are c'loine the r:l ght thing to debate it even though ,,,e ''o not normally debate the affairs of companies in this Province that are in finand .al clifficulties or that have eone bankrupt. Sir, tJ,is one is very public. for 11t least tr1ree reasons. The rirst -not necessarily the !'1ost important - FC1Uld be tbe fact that ~ 41 mil 1 ion of the people's 111oney is involvecl.

J guess it is T'rovinc:!al 4622

Ap1:il 2, 19 7(i Tape 1722 IB-3 .Jffi. ROBERTS: Refining Company Limited that lists among its secured creditors the Provine~ of Newfoundland through the Department of Finance. There are $198 million in securecl . creditors in Provlind.al Refining Company Limited~and of that $198 million the Province is owed or owns $42 million worth of that debt, about 20 per cent of the total secured debt o:l; Provincial ReHning Company Limited.

But, Sir, even more importantly than that is the fact that this refinery at Come By Chance was - I do not know if it was conceived by the government 1 but certainly :l;t was midwifed by the government of the day. The gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) was Premier. I happened to be a member of the cabinet. The gentleman from LePoile (Mr. Neary) was a member of the cabinet. The gentleman from Fogo (r.apt • Winsor) was a mel!lher of the cabinet. The gentleman from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) ~Yas a member of the cabinet, and I am not sure of the gentleaan from Port De Grave (M'r. E.

Ilawe) ; he might have been in the cabinet for part of it and he resigned from the cabinet at one point and was not subsequently reappointed, indeed did not subsequently stand for re-election in the 1971 election. MR. NOLAN: We were not members of the cabinet when it was conceived. 462.1

Anril 2, 107(). }'R. R0BERTS: Tape 1723 RH - 1 No. Hy friend from Conception Ray South(Hr. Nolan) has madP. a valid point. IJEO> were not members of the Cabinet when it was conceived. Indeed our entry into the Cabinet came after the. original midwives. The member for St. John's Hest (}:r. Crosbie) and the then member for the then constituency of Humber Hest (Mr.

Clyde Hells) had left the Cabinet in the middle part of Hay, 1968 aR I recall it, had left the Cabinet in a dispute over a portion, a feature of the oriF,inal agreements, the $5 million bridge financin!!· AN H0N. ~'W-lRFR: The $5 million bridge financing. ~ffi. ROBE~TS: Yes, the $5 million bridge financing. The Minister of Justice was in the Cabinet - I am sorry? l'iR. HURPHY : Everybody thought they were building bridges. All across the country there was so much talk about bridge financing. ~'iR. ROBERTS: ~~ell it is interesting, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister reminds us of that, because the way it has turned out that was really a by-issue of the utmost unimportance. The real issues of Come By Chance, the real issues of the <vhole project were not in any way related to this bridge financing question. That was the merest bump on a very large log. The Minister of .Justice was in the Cabinet. Indeed he and I at one time Tvere fell mY' directors of Provincial Building Company Limited ,as I recall jt- not probably, ~think almost certainly. I think we were- I forget who was the third. There would have been three ministers.

He is probably hack there now. 'low, Hr. Speaker, it is a private company l,ut of public concern because our peonle have put $41 millions into it and because the government got it started. I suppose this House spent as much time debating Come By r.hance as we nin anything in the last four or five years; major debate in 1968, another ma.i or debate in 1970 when the amendments were made to the original agreement in the Summer of 1970 we had a two or three day session here in the House and debated amendments at great length.

Then throughout the piece there has hardly been a debate or hardly been ~ - could I ask Hhen the Governor is to come? AN liON. HEHBF.R: Twelve-thirty. 4624

April 2, 1976 MR. ROBERTS: the Governor comes? AN RON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS : Tape 1723 RH - 2 Twelve thirty. Okay. We will adjourn after We will probably come back to it. Could I ask - I am sorry? He will only take a minute. No, I know he only takes a minute. But is the thought to resume after that until one, or is the thought to adjourn? MR. CROSBIE: We will see how it turns out. MR. ROBERTS: All right. Well, I will be here at twelve thirty. We will see what happens. Now, Mr.

Speaker, now that we know that His Excellency is coming to, hopefully assent to the Interim Supply motion - I believe he will assent. I assume the government have advised him to assent and His Honour will carry out the advice he received from the Premier. Has the Premier given him any other advice today? Are we going to have an election? PREMIER MOORES : MR. HICKMAN: representative. MR. ROBERTS: Not today. After all, we are approaching the Queen's Agreed. Agreed. It is the Queen's government and His Honour the Governor is the Queen's personal representative, MR. HICKMAN: He will assent, I believe. MR.

ROBERTS: I hope he does. It would be an interesting - when did it happen? Mr. Hanbidge was the Lieutenant-Governor of Saskatchewan in 1962. He reserved a bill. You could hear the yell from Regina to Saskatoon. Mr. Speaker, the real point of what we are talking about here today, though, is not the affairs of this company. I am not sure we have any real right to go into the affairs of it except as they impinge upon the public concerns of the people of this Province and the government of this Province.

What we are talking about are two things, I would submit; the government's role in the events which resulted or led to the bankruptcy of this company or these companies, and even more importantly, even more importantly than that, because that is passed and at best we can learn from it and be negative bnt 4625

April 2 , 197~ . Tnpe 1723 RH - 3 MR. ROBERTS: we cannot really change what has happened , r~e real point of this dehate,I su~gest,is wi1at ~ave we learned with respect to r;e economic develo~ment of this Province . In a narrower context, what have we learnerl with respect to t he refinery operation or the petrochemical ~ossL~ilities at ~ome By C.hance? Can we ma~e them go again? I would think, Sir, that is the ?Oint of the remarks which I wish to make in this dehate at this time . ~ow I have listened to most of What the Minister of ~ines and F.ner~y said. I have obtained transcripts .

I rang the Editor of Debates and he was kJnd enough to ask his staff to do them . 1 have read them through I think 1v.i~i care and attention . I have not sent them to any~ody else, I hasten to say to the minister . If they should crop up in the r.P.r.. next weev or in oil week or anywhere or in some liti~ation, they iave nor 4626

AprH 2, 1976 Tape 1724 IB-1 r'R. ROBEPTS : come from me. lYe have now come to the point, I suppose, where each one of us is going to have to stand and record his innocence of these nefarious charges. But I certainly have transcripts and I have read them. Let me say right at the outset, Mr. Speaker, let me make it quite clear where my colleagues and I stand with respect to this issue or this question. We reali~e that we have only heard Vhe government's side of the event.

He have heard the minister speak at length and he tabled a great deal of information, a great number of letter,but we have only heard one s:l.de of it and there is always a second side to any issue or any question. But let me say, Sir, that - well let me make a remark before I make that conclusion.

We can only test what the minister said by three means. vie can test it by such knowledge as any of us might have of the events that have been talked about,or that we have acquired by reading it. ~~e can talk about public knowledge 1or we can talk about our general experience with the refiner y and with the people who have built it and made it 'vork. Now, having said that, Sir, let me say that as far as I can see,unless there has been some material ommission in what the minister has told us - and I understand there are rumors and mutterings, and I have no doubt the gentleman from Twillingate (~1 r.

Smallwood) will tell us whatever there is if there is anything to this - that some major or some material documentation has not been made public. Perhaps I could ask the minister is there any significant documentation that has not been made public? There is none that I know of but I do not knm,,. MP . CROSBIE: There are so many documents that - MP .• 110BF.'P.TS: I know. but I imagine - HR. CPOSBIE: All are not filed. ~lR. P.OBERTS: But I used the adjectives 'major' or 'material'. }Ill • r.:ROSBIE: I do not think so. J'E..

ROBERTS: The minister tells us that as far as he is aware, and I would think he is certainly aware of it, all major or material 4627

April 2, 1976 Tape 1724 IB-2 ~:n. RC1BERT S_: _ documentation that is relevant to the debate or relevant to the issue has been made public. I run glad of that. Let me say I am privy to no information. The onlv communication I have hac~ 1dth any member of the ref-tnery organization was I hl'lppened to come out to the House on Tuesday and Hr. Homer Hhite, a friend of mine, an estimable gent1emen,happenerl to be in rny office 1-dth a lawyer from Halifax ""ho~<e p11rtner is a very old friend of mine. The partner is '!r, Peter Green and the lavryer is 1-'r.

Leonard Kitts wh0 I believe is a Queen's c0unse1 in Nova Scotia. We chatted for a moment or tt,•o a'bout the state of the weather and did not really get into the refinery issue at all. But I am ~lad it is all public because I have heard 111utterings that there is some !<ecret document that will be tabled that v1ill put an entirely neF light on everything that has been said and done. !-/ell, i.f there is, I do not know about it.

The !!dnister tells us he noes not lmo<c about. 'T'he Premier presumably does not know about it becnuse he ancl the m:l.nister were in brief converse before the minister just ansv•en•cl l'\Y questi.on. I have not been made privy to i.t. So with that preface, let 111e say that my view - a.nd I have read the minister's statements and I have triecl to analyze them and th:!nk them through. Assuming that all the documentntion is available, or al.l the relevant documentation, I rather think the minister has laid out a very strong case.

There is one significant area that I will cli ffer with :mel that is the one I have previously publicly criticized, the government's failure to be "~at I believe to be frank and honest <ri th the peop] e of this Province. But leaving that asic1e - that is a question of communication between the government of the Province and the people of the Province - leaving that aside,as the minister outline<" thE' !'<'Vernment 's jnvolvement in th:l.s and c.onduct in it, it seems to have been strai ghtfol"varcl, and I lvould think would probably be tre sort of thine that an ~cministration which I head would have <"one.

That is a rlifficult thing to say,because how can you answer 4628

April 2, 1976 Tape 1724 IB-3 ~'P.. ROBETITS : negatives, how can you prove the unprovable. But based on what I know,and based on my experience - and I had some dealings with the Come By Chance project. In fact that second mortgage that secures our $42 million I believe has my signature on it as one of the ministers who was an officer. The hon. member for Pleasantville (~r. ~inn) looks dubious. He can go do~~ and look it up. I spent a ~mole day down in the Justice nepartment,as did the gentleman from Twillingate (~r. Smallwood), as did the member for r.onception Bay South (~'r. Nolan), signing documents.

I am nuite sure my signature is one it. I am sure it is also on the construction contracts with Proccin. You know,and whatever else it was proper for me to have signed, I signed. A whole day at it, and then initialling pages and the contracts are that thick and you sign at the end and you have to initial every page. Then there are a dozen people around the table all practicing their penmanship. So I had some experience with it. I was not uninvolved in the 1970 amendments to the act. As I recall it at Committee stage in that debate the gentlewan from TYJillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) had carried the second reading debate, had led in it and had spoken on it. At Committee stage, as I recall it, I took most of the burden of dealing with some of the detaHed provisions of it. }!y friend, "r. 1-Jilliam Rowe, who ~1as then the member for White Bay South and a colleague of ours in the cabinet was as deeply involved and as intimately involved and as proud of it as I am and was. ~r. Speaker, the point is that I think the government have probably acted as they ought to have acted with a significant exception. I ~dll deal with that in a few moments. 4629

1\pril ?., lq7fi. fiR. Rnl11'.RTS: Tape 1725 RH - 1 1 tl1inl" thev h-"Vf' a strong case. I think thAt is worth sayin~ because there were quite stronf. attacks .I watched the Sunday afternoon programme on C.JON televisjon. The bankruptcy petition I guess '~as filed on a Friday. The Premier's press conference was, I believe, that Friday afternoon. On Sunday afternoon CJON television, I helieve, put a '~hole hour on, a very good puhl ic affairs thinp., about tl-te only pub lie affairs thing they have none in months.

They seem to have given up on Analvsis 0r T_ssues anri _!IT1_S.2'!'E'!~~ and all those other proQ;ramrnes. The !'linister '"as on ann 'fr. J nmi eson '~as on and all concern en lvere on. The hon. gentleman Frol'l THi.lJ inp::ttP C!r. SmaJ h~oon) Has on. I do not want to cr:i ticize vlhat !1e snirl.

He can say v111nt he ui,;hes. l·!h<>.n he speaks jn the rlehate I have no rloul•t he will say exactly '"hat he wishes anrl f'Xactlv what he believes <1n<l t)1at is the way it should he. llnt he seel'\e<l to feel that the ~1hole thin<:( '"'lS an attack, t11e ",_,ole banlcruptcv proceedinp,s had resul teri l•Pcause of a p.0vernment attack or a p:overnment necision to try to down Come ~y C11ance.

Now I can he ~ritical of the ?Over.nment, Sir, and heavens l·nm"' T hnve !-<<>.en criticnl of this governnent,anri I •rill he :.~ain. llut 1 Pt mr> Jna''.e H qui. te c] ear t~at baserl on what T l·no~o~, and what I see,and ,.,11<-tt 1 have been told, and assuminp, I have he en told anri the llouse has heen told the - 1<hen I say 'the truth' I am not sug?esting we 11ave told nny untrut~ hut tr.e full truth, the whole truth and not hi n~ but the t r•1th, then 1 thinl·. that the p;overnment do not col'lP. off so b;1.dly at alJ.

T <'lm not here to sit j,p judgment hut I din not think the minister's speech "'"" ~ei t'•er 2n :~polor.ia or an attack. I ;.rou]d hope the gentleman from 1Vi ll inf)Rte ('·'r. Sm:.llwood) ~1hen he S1Jeal<s ~lill deal with that point. Hr> tE•] ls us 11r> 1o,qs reen in intimate contact •o~ith principals in the refiner.v oncratirm. 1:e may ~·:roll lmo'~ a great rleal more than any of us. He certainly l:nm·;s a ~reat r1p"J more than T no. I 1lave not h,qcl a ..rord '"'i th any principal in t l'IP n~finery organization for months. I have not had any causP. to. I ""' not dealing 1<ith t~em in the ~overnment.

I am not their a<'.cnt. I am not their spol:esman. I am not connecterl \dth them in any way. T '1ave had iu<.t no conmunication from them nor do I expect any, nor have I 4630

April 2, 1C)76. MR. l'OBERTS: Tape 1725 RtT - 2 tried to initiate any. But if the gentleman from 11villingate (Ur. Smallwood) knows more than I do or the House does ,then I shall listen with great interest to what he has to say because I think if there is more it should come out. But until and unless it comes out.then I think that my judgment must stand as being a sound one, one based on the evidence, one based on the facts. I must say a number of the statements made by some of the spokesmen for the Come By Chance refinery interests have been exploded by the minister or by the documents which he tabled.

I do not think there is any doubt now that the British people never - it was said that they had consented to share their first mortgage. I found that a little hard to believe. In my limited experience with the world of affairs, Mr. Speaker, people holding secured mortgages to companies that are in trouble are not usually willing to give up very much of their security. Indeed the very reason they sought the security is they want security and are not about to share H or dissipate it in any ,.ray. Of course E.C.G.D. have made that quite clear. The third mortgage question I am not sure has been fully dealt with.

I do not t!hink the minister dealt with it as completely as I would like. There were statements made,as I recall it, that Ataka had agreed, the major creditors, the Japanese firm of Ataka had agreed to pay off the local creditors if they were given a third mortgage. I do not think that has been completely dealt with 1 but I think the evidence that is hefore us would indicate that that statement too does not have any validity upon examination. 4631

April 2, 1976 Tape No. 1726 *' - 1 "R. ROBERTS: So I think the minister's speech has been very informative and that,and it has given us quite a deal of information,and unless there is something we do not know or something we have been misled on, then I think that it is a sort of a neutral position. I guess we are in a neutral position in this party now and in this matter in this House, and our judgement l<•ould be that the government are on essentially the right track. ~'r. Speaker, I wanted to say that.

I think it should he said, because I believe we are the only group in this Rouse that is - if" 'neutral' the right word?- that is not directly involved in the thlng. As I say, to my krowledge we have no contact at all, any of my colleagues or me, with the refinery organization other than,as I said~ a brief conversation in my room the other evening,after the debate, Hhich carrled on in the elevatC'r and going out the door until ~~e got in our respective cars. And the chat I had last summer with ¥.r.

Horner White, oh three or four, five, six months before the election we had a brief cltat, half an hour, just notes from old til'les and one thing and another. It was a private conversation. T do not I•Jish to reveal it because I do not believe in revealing private conversations ., but I can assure the House it had nothing to do ,..,i th ;my matter before the House now. And if Vr. l\Thite ever wants me to reveal it and if he consents then I Hill certainly do so. This is certainly nothing secret or ~~rong. But, Hr. Speaker, the government obviously have dealt with it, and the gentleman from Twillingate 01r.

Smallwood) has told us on a number of occasions, publicly and in every way that he can,and he is a genius at communicating his thoughts and his feelings and M.s beliefs, that he is in intimate contact~so I look forward to what he has to say on that point. He may wish to criticize us. That is his right and his privilege, more power to him, but I would think he will have to make a very powerful case to convince me that the ' government have acted in the 1vay in which he indicated they had iln

April 2, 1976 Tape No. ·1726 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: his statement on the television. He may have changed his mind. I have no way to know,of course. ~1r. Speaker, having made that point let me go on to say that I do not need to review in detail the events which led to the decision by the creditors to go before the Supreme Court and seek a bankruptcy order, the order which the Supreme Court, Chief Justice }lifflin did in fact grant. It is obvious, I think, to anybody who was in this Province in the last year or so- not the last year,the last few months that the refinery was in trouble.

There was the indication, I suppose the first indication, substantial indication, the first public indication of any substance that any of us had came late in October when the Chicago Bank, the !irst National Bank of Illinois,! think it is called- AN RON. MEl'ffiER: Chicago. MR. ROBERTS: The First National Bank of Chicago, I thank the hon. gentleman, a very major US Bank, I believe the chairman of the bank was the chairman of the opening ceremonies at Come By Chance, the day in October 1973 when it was opened. The gentleman has since retired, no connection with this, he had come his term and retired.

PREMIER MOORES : Freeman. }qt, ROBERTS: Mr. Freeman, no, was that the man's name? PREMIER MOORES: Lord Goodman. MR. ROBERTS: Lord< Goodman is the ECGD, no I am sorry.­ PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Shaheen's lawyer. MR. ROBERTS: }lr. Shaheen's lawyer, that is right, a very notable solicitor, a very great figure in the arts, a very great figure of a man,needless to say, a marvellous man. But the gentleman, the Premier ~ght remind me, the gentleman from the National Bank of Chicago what was his name? PREMIER MOORES: Gaylord Freeman. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. gaylord Freemnn, was that it? PREMIER }~CORES: Sure. MR.

ROBERTS: And a very well known banker, indeed I am told one of the 4633

Aptil 2, 1976 Tape No . 1726 NH - 3 "R . r.oBer.TS: . great b::mkers of the United States ,and in any event his bank foreclosed on a debenture and of course that is what put the fa t in the fi::-e, hecnuse their deoenture \fas for only $20 million, at fifteen per cent inte r est - and as far as I know there '~ere no bonuses or double disb ursement sl-eets or anything ­ but thn sccuri ty for ;:hat debenture ~1as the oil in the refinery, both tile rnw oil and ::he crude oil, the oil go111$t through the process and the inventories on the other end,and once the bank had forec losed .and it sent in,I believe,Clarkson's, Clarkson's are obviously very much in demand for acting on t hese things .

Once Clarkson's !1ad eone in and exercised the ri.ehcs under the debcn ture,o( course the whole thine came to a head and it went on frc:n there. think it is obvious from looking at the (inancial statements, "r. Speaker, the cc.mpany was in very real trouble fo r a long time . t 4634

April 2, 1976 Tape 1727 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: did ~oma analysis on the statements which the minister tabled, and, you know, they are incredibly intriguing. Let me just take - there were seven statements tabled by the minister, quarterly statements, Of the seven, six were unaudited - I ~ sorry, six unauditied quarterly statements and one audited annual statement covering all of the calendar year 1974 and the first nine months in the calendar year 1975. Those were the statements which the minister tabled, and the mere fact that they are unaudited should not excite anybody in the House or outside, Mr. Speaker.

That is the normal procedure. You only get an audit once a year. That is enough. I assume the unaudited statements which Provincial Refining Company Limited prepared, and which were given to the minister, which in turn were tabled here in the House,were accurate, and I do not question them at all. Let me just go through the one particular figure which I think is a significant one, the net earnings figure or the net loss figure as it became.

But the statements which were filed were a balance sheet in each case, and an earnings statement or a profit and loss statement for three months,and then a source and application of ~unds. There were three statements filed in each of the seven sets of documents. So I have taken the net earnings figure or the net loss figure from each of these statements, and at the end of March 1974 the net earnings of the company,which I believe began business officially on the 1st. of January 1974, I think that was the date, You know, every project or eve~ operation has a starting point for accounting purposes.

I mean you count what goes before, but there is always an ton-start date, and I believe in the case of Come By Chance it was 1st. January 1974. And in each case we are told these were before the management fee which the Newfoundland Refining Company were entitled to draw, and that was 27.8 per cent of net earnings. Now I will come back to that point. Then in the first three months this company,we are told, on product sales of $43 million, had net earnings 46!5 .

April 2, 1976 Tape 1727 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: of $4,426,793. It made roughly $1 for every $10 loiOrth of sales, and that after provision for taxes. Actually the earnings before taxes w·ere $8.526 millions, but provision was made for $4.1 million in deferred income taxes. That was cash available to go into the operation of course, because the income taxes would have been deferred for a long time because of capital cost allowances, and that is normal and proper and right and straightforward and all of that. Then in the first three months of operation Provincial Refining made an average of $1.5 million a month.

I have rounded off the figures, but my roundings are accurate, $1.5 million a month plus in the first three months of operation. In the next three months of operation the statement for the period ending June 30, 1974, the net earnings figure for the six months is $6.19 million, call it $6, 200, 000, because you are only $2,910 out, $6.2 millions, the total earnings have been $11.9 millions, but there have been $5.7 millions set nside as a tax reserve, again cash available, but, you know, legitimately set aside, and properly so the accountants will say.

So that was a net rate of return, net earnings, not rate of return, I am sorry, net earnings of roughly $1 million a month, in the first six months. So the first three months the project had made $1.5 milion each month net. And that the. first six months, that is, including the first three and then accumulating the total net earnings averaged $1 mill ion a month, you know. And the pattern 1~ill appear the minister of - ~m . ·u RPHP: Does this allow for paying bills and all that stuff? ' IR. ROBERTS : Oh, yes. I ~>ill read it down for the Minister of ProvinciC!l Affa i rs.

Yes, I mean, six months ended June 30, 1974, :<R . ~ll1 RPI1Y : - ----- Oh 1974, I thought - MR. RO!lERTS: - ·------ Product sales $106 millions - I will round them off to the nearest million.- Product sales $107 million, transportation $5 millions, total income $112 rnillions.That is income, not earnings, you know, revenue,another way to put it. Costs and 463o

April 2, 1976 Tape 1727 PK- 3 Mr. Roberts; expenses excluding the amoun·ts shown separately, that broad category, $85 million; selling 1 general and adlllinistrative expenses were $7.2 million; the interest was $5 million, and depreciation, not a cash item but aga.in a legitimate ite111 to record, of course, it is a cost, ~,3 millions. So the total expenses were $l00;2uo;ooov so that gave you earnings before taxes, taking expenses from revenue,of approximately $11.9 million, putting aside $5.7 million on taxes, you were given $6.2 million net earnings.

So in the first six months of its life that refinery project earned $1 million a month. I have not bothered working out the rates of return on the equity invested, although I might say on a total investment of $10 million by the equity owners in those subordinate debentures, that is a pretty handsome rate of return. So $1.5 millions a month in the first three months, the average rate of income,of net earnings, 4-63 7.

A,rn 2, 1<J76 Tape 1728 IB-1 t'll • r.!flllf.llTS : $1 mU1ion pl11s in the six months. Clo1.r what happens at nine months, ~<r. Speaker? T11ere is a story here , and the story I think '.d.l] emerg-e quite cle:uly. If anybody wonders, you know, what happenecl to the refinery - I am not tellinz you about why it happened but 1,·ha t happened - 1 thjnk it makes it quite clear. At the enr1 of nine months, l'r.

Speaker, September 30, 1974 the statements showec , the statements supplied by Provincial Refining that the net earnings haQ turnen from a profit of $6.2 mUJion three months before to a total loss for the year to elate, the nine months, of $12.8 million. So the company had had qufte a dramatic turn around in that nuarter. It hac1.:1n fact,gone $18 m:!Jl:lon behind. Nnl··' :if you c1iv:ide t:>e $17,PJ)!'J,OOO Joss of the first nine months by nine, you are given $1.6 Tl'ilJion a month.

So at the nintb Tl'onth of its progress through the year 1974 the refinery hM1 suffered a ] oss, no': necessar:l .ly a cash loss but a legitimate, proper Joss by accounting procedures, a net J ass of $12.8 million wh:tch is '-1.6 mil]ion a month. Let us look at: t!1e pattern, Yr. Speaker. The first three nottths ,earnin~s of $1.5 nil lion a month. '!'he next three months earnlnrs for the six month period averagecl $1 million a month. For the n:l.ne rnonths instead of averaging $.1.5 mUJ ion a month or $1 1'11Hl Inn a nonth, they turn into a net loss of $1.6 million a month.

If you carry tbat through to the encl of 1074 "'hen we have an i:lttdited statement - Coo)'ers and Lybrand, a well-knO"'-"n reputable,m~Questionable firm of aucH tors. Inf!eec1 I think :t'r. nennis Groom Has a partner in the Brit ish Tlranch of Coopers before he first cal'le to 1~ork for the government. I tldnk he ~-ras. ~:R . CP. • THE : Yes. ''1>. J'OBERTS: Yes, the ~ ' inister of Nines and f:nergy - that j s the firm that :'r. Groom Pas a partner in :In Lcmclon. It is the American branch, but you knm" they are first class people, no arguynent there. In that periof!, ''r.

Speaker, tl1e net loss for the twelve months hacl turnecl 46:38

April 2, 1976 Tape 1728 ~rn . ROBERTS : into $5R million for the year. Now you divide that again, Sir, by t'•elve and you get $4.8 million a month. That is the pattern, Mr. Speaker. I think that pattern is worth restating at the risk of restating it once too often. IB-2 Over the year,if you take the quarterly statements, the refinery be~an in its first three months by making $1.5 million a month. In the first six months the average profit ,,,as $1 million a month.

In the nine months,the refinery was making a loss of $1.6 mill:!.on a month, and in the t~lve months the refinery was making a loss ~f $4.8 million a month. That pattern continues. The statement for the end of lfarch, 1975, the first three months of that financial year, shows a net loss of $21 million which my my calculations is a $7 million loss,and I assume that is an operating loss because it refers only to the year to date of course . I am not talking to the position on the balance sheet. I am talking just of the in and out journal, the profit and loss statement.

The three months ending March 31, 1975~minus $21.5 million,which is an average of about $7.2 million a month loss. At the end of six months it had gone to $66.3 million loss which is an average of $11 million a month. At the end of nine months - that is the most recent statement 1.rhich the Minister of Hines and Energy tabled - the net Joss for the year to date, 1975, the first n:l.ne I!'Onths of 1975, was $106 million. You arlrl that to the $58 million from the year before and you have a total loss of $164 million.

But the $106 million figure,divided by nine,cornes out to roughly $12 million a month, nine twelves are 108 but let us call it $12 million a month. So what happened was

J\pril 2, l<l7(\. c!R. ROBERTS: Tape 1729 RR - 1 quitE' obvious, Sir: The project l:Jled to neath. 'To business could sustain that rate of loss.- maybe if you were Imperial Oil, now Exon, or Royal Dutch Shell or some massive company. Not only was it losing incredibly large amounts of money,but the rate of loss was increasing. It is like a hemorrhage that in the first hour bleeds there is only so many 'lnarts of blood in our body and we can only lose so many hefore we die. The human organism has only a limited capacity to lose blood and survive. The first hour vou lose an ounce of blood.

The next hour you do not lose an ounce, you lose a cup. Then you lose a pint and a quart and death is inevitable. HR. 1!1.1RPHY: Time .. .-as not a great healer. •m. ~OllFRTS: No, Sir. The !1inister of Provincial Affairs is right. Ti.rn<' Has not a r,reat healer. Indeed time was working against the refinery . I do not know what would have happened, but I mean it is obvious over the tHenty-one month period that the refinery was hemorrhaging massively ancl that t~lE~ hemorrhage was getting worst whatever treatments were being apnlie<l. ~ffi. !TI.lRl'TrY: Green instead of red.

Hn. ~0!\ERTS: v1ell1 it is a horror story in financial terms. Now I am not as yet saying ,.,hy or asking why. I am just making the analysis because it is an analysis that the Hinister of Hines and Energy did not make. I am not saying there ~;as anything wrong ~dth him not making it. There was no neen for him to make it. But the statement was made. But I think the l!ouse '~ould he interester1 in that analysts. It is based only on the figures. I have no other information. Rut it is based on the company's own statements. Tl1e company startecl making $1.5 roillion a month, ended up losing $12 millions a month.

In twenty-one months that company went from generating a profit of $1.5 million a month to lasing $12 millions a mcnth)which is a turnaround of ~13.5 million. I do not suppose that any cntP.rprise in the Horld could stand, not only that rate of loss - company's taV.e that r:'lte of loss and keep going, hig companies - but the increase. Tl,e increase is fri~11teningly rapid, and no apparent evidence that I can see nf ;1 turnaround. 4640

April 2, 1976. MR. ROBERTS: Tape 1729 RH - 2 Raving said that, let me then turn to the question of why it happened. I mean,that is what happened. If anybody ever wonders why Provincial Refining went bankrupt, I mean it went bankrupt because it was bleeding to death and the company was, to say the least, equity thin. There was $10 million in equioy in it originally on a $200 million project. That is about five per cent. The rest was secured by mortgages of one kind or another, first, second, third,dock agreements and what hav.e you. But the fact ~rs from the financial statements, Sir, that company bled to death.

I will venture to say if it had not been declared bankrupt, if the creditors for whatever reason had not decided to jump and petition the Supreme Court in the bankruptcy - and when I say for whatever reason, it is not hard to imagine for whatever reason. Anybody who saw those financial statements would naturally be somewhat apprehensive. I mean, if the I.iberal Party had seen those statements we would have been looking for our $100. That is not mentioning the companies who were owed $1 million or $10 million, $15 million or $53 million. I think that is the largest unsecured amount, the Ataka people, $53 million.

It is astonishing. I am sorry - Atlantic Trading Deleware Limited are owed by Provincial Refining $244 million unsecured. That may or may not be correct. What I am reading, Hr. Speaker, are the not ices ~•hich the trustee of the Clarkson Company sent out. But that is the largest one. Ataka America, who I assume are owned hy the same people as Atlantic Trading neleware, are owed an extra $9.9 millions. Herma Oil Tankers they are - a New York address here, $2 million; 4641 I do not know who

April 2, 1 071i Tape No. 1730 NM - J I'll. ROBERTS: Canadian Fuel Marketeers Limited, Valleybrook nrive, Don Hills - $2.5 million; Common Brothers, they are a shipping firm,I believe, ship owners - $1.4 million, that is in England, in Newcastle-upon- Tyne, in the North of En~land. I think those are the only- no,I am sorry,Gulf Oil are owed $3 million, the American Gulf Oil Company; London Shipowning, whose address is give as care of a law firm in Halifax, Stewart, !lcKeen, Covert - $1.6 million; Newfoundland Refining, that is one of those company transactions that the minister mentioned - $15 million.

It is incredible the amounts of money, and of course the question that we cannot answer,and indeed it is not appropriate for us to answer, it may not even be terribly appropriate for us to ask it,is why the creditors allowed the amounts to pile up? But be that as it may,they did and they will noH have to take whatever remedies the law gives them. I'P. MTRPHY: How do they get the great credits, I wonder? ~. ROBERTS: I do not know, Mr. Speaker.

MR . t!URPHY: I 1vas in a bank the other day and I 1vanted to change a cheque for twenty-five dollars, They put a stamp on the back, the teller knew I was a Minister of the Crown~and I had to put my car licence number on the back of the cheque. I!R . ROBERTS : That m?Y be because they knew the gentleman was a minister. Theym~y have felt he had no job security. ''R. nTRPHY: Perhaps that was why. Perhaps that was why. >'ll • P.OBEllTS: I am sur e that the Come By Chance matter will be a case study, a classic case study,you know,in the business 1-1orld for good or for bad. >q , ~T RPHY: Salesmanship. ~ .

ROBERTS: I would think in years to come the Harvard Business School,which works on the case method like the lawyers do,will certainly 1vant to look at the Come By Chance thing. It is a magnificent example of whatever it is. Mr. Speaker, the point I made,and I think made at some length and thoroughly,is that the company was bankrupt and when 464Z

April 2, 1976 Tape No. 1730 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: Ataka chose to go in, and I do not know why they chose to go in although I can take a guess based on what the minister said, the Minister of Mines and Energy, it is obvious that the company was hopelessly bankrupt and I do not see how it could ever have come out of it. I mean,I have heard nothing from the company or seen nothing,but maybe the gentleman from Twillingate (~r.

Smallwood) will be abele to address himself to this point as well, how they could possibly turn around not just the total loss,because I mean that is there ~ you know, Ford Motor Company WTOte off a quarter of a billion dollars on the Edsel car and kept on going and are coinPtg it still- but how they could staunch that hemmorhage and it ·rapidly increasing, in twenty-one months it had gone from $1.5 million loss to a $21 million loss. Perhaps next I should look at the question of why,and I do not know why the company went bankrurt.

I can advance some reasons which the minister,! think,has already touched on and they are pretty obvious. I think,first of all,nobody can blame the refinery company or the people involved in it for the fact that the international oil industry has come on tough times fjnancially speak:l.ng. Come By Chance,in that sense.was the, what was F.E. Smith's, Lord Berkenhead's phrase that"Newfoundland was the Cinderella of the Empire'!' I think Berkenhead WTote a little -potboiler, did he not. Berkenhead wrote a little potboiler at one stage when he was still F.E.

Smith, an aspiring young barrister, before he became Lord Chancellor of England,and that phrase was in it. Well, Mr. Speaker, the Come By Chance Refinery was the Cinderella of the oil world,except for ' this Cinderella there was no Prince Charming - AN RON. }~ER: And no slippers. l"R. ROBERTS: - and there were no slippers~because they came on stream, they came into production just about the time that the whole bottom fell out of the international oil industry, A number of things

April 2, 197fi Tape No. 1731) W'- 3 ~~ . ROBERTS: happened . The Arabs,who supply much of the crude in the world,suddenly realized that they were in a sellers market. Then OPEC, which had been a largely quiescent organizatlon, OPEC came alive with a vengence and the Arabs are inOPEC. as are Venezuela and the countries along the !fediterranean,and Indonesia, the oil producing companies of the world, all except Canada 1 I believe,are in OPEC,or all the major ones, I am not sure about the Soviet Union,and that is a major oil producer but it does not sell much oil on our side of the 1mrld.

But the 0PF.C countries suddenly started ~acking up the price,and you cannot blame the refinery people for that. They are not responsible for that and they cannot be held to account for it. The results of th;ot were widespread, The international tanker market, VLCC's went from affluence to poverty overnight. I read recently, I do not know where it was, I think it was in Time ~~a~zine, somewhere like that,where the Onassis organization had just lost a tanker. She had been deadheading up from somewhere in the Bay of Biscay, around Finisterre 1 going up the Channel and she had gone aground and was a total loss.

Fortunately she was empty. CAPTAIN l.JINSOR: Her maiden voyage. 'fll. ROBERTS: !1y friend from Fogo (Captain Winsor) reminds me it Has the tanker's maiden voyage and she was empty. She was a $27 million tanker and she had not a stain of oil in her carrying tanks, what oil she had in her was in her fuel tanks, her propulsion fuel.and she was on her way, Mr. Speaker, and this did not come out until you looked carefully at the story, she 1~as on her way to Norway to join several hundred other tankers which were laid up in the fjords there because

April 2, 1976 Tape 1731 Ill-1 MR. ROBERTS: today, Sir, the international tanker market is about as strong as the market for blacksmith shops in Detroit, Michigan. And the Shaheen organization, the Come By Chance organization,had chartered, we are told,seven ~~CCs, very large crude carriers. That is given as one of the major reasons. They had gambled. I assUl11e - now we do not have the facts, I am not sure if we can get them, but we do not have them. Maybe the gentleman for Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood) had them. r•aybe he can give them to us.

Maybe he will- but when those tankers were chartered it was the smart thing to charter them, because you grabbed the charter when you could get it. AristotJe Onassis made one of the great fortunes of all time by forward chartering of tankers, chartering tankers that had their entire life's work contracted under charter before even the keel of the machine was laid.

But in this case, Sir, the gamble 1 if it was a gamble~or the action,if that is what it was,turned into a disaster, because of course today, Sir, if you were to open Come By Chance and if you were not Newfoundland Refining and had charter party contracts,and Provincial Refining or whoever has the contracts you know you could pick up tankers - I do not know - but I wager at a quarter of what they cost. You could probably have them for the mortgages on them or cheaper than that because I am told that the fjords in Norway are filled with tankers.

The great Olsen firm, one of the great shipping firms of the world, is tottering, I am told, on the edge of receivership because of its investment in tankers. Aristotle Onassis died a couple of years ago worth $500 million. I gather today, you know,his estate might be worth a quarter of that because of the fall in much of the assets which were tankers. So you cannot blame the Come By Chance people for that. You cannot blame them for the fall of that. 1\N Hl'lN. ~'El'BETt: The opening of the Suez Canal brought that about. MR.

POBEJlT!;: Well,my friend says that the open:l.ng of the Suez Canal -- That is only part of it. I would commend to anybody who is at all

April 2, 1976 Tape 1731 IB-2 ~ "'. -:'J':BEl'TS: interested in this type of proble:rr or interested in the ecological matters a hook nm,• in paperback by a man nal".ecl Noel Mostert callec1 the Supershin wh:l ch is a story of these tankers ~.rh:l.ch are r.eall y floating til'le bombs in an ecological sense, these VU:Cs. I must say, you know, there have always been ']uestfons about the tankers coming np in Placentia Bay, questions larrely acadel!'jc.Once the refinery ~.ras there, it had to he supplied or else it ,,roul d be junk .

Rut I mean the book is certainly sobering thinking for anyborly who is even interested or. concerned in that aspect of it as well. No ~ t ,.,as not the opening of the Suez Canal. It was the cornb1natio.n of a lot of thjngs. Partially the Suez ranal,wh 1 ch meant you clid not need the quarter million toners. You could use 50,(100 toners, I think, can go through the Suez r.anal. Partially the incredible overbuilcling of tankers. Then the best people - AN RON. !El·1'CER: The Japanese? }ffi . ROBEP.rS: Some were Japanese, some were Greek, the big money of tl1e "orld.

I can remember the last couple of months He were :l.n office, the Pnn-!!arit:lme people, marvellous people with a 13reat name <1 r,reat reputation - you can check them out with "Thorn you want, the hip-best of people. The hon. member for Twillin)!ate (l'!r. Smallwood), I am not sure if he found them or if they found him,but they were kinclref! souls, they were interested in buildlng this type of vessel, the ''Lf:f's at l"arystown. They ~.rere genuine. They were sincere. They believecl that the prospects of the ''LCr market HI'S ttn] irnite<". /'. 1 ot of people of st.11.nc'ing ann repute believed that.

The ~rho] e inr1ustry r,1ent mad building the foo] i~h things and they are there nm·: . Tloen the c'rop in consumption - the only th:lnp: that is holding up the price of o:l1 torlay is the OPEC cartel. If otl 1,rere subject to mHr>-et forces t.odny the price 1,10uld come way rlor.m. Rnt there is an over.supp] y of oiJ now. The refineries :In r.an;~na are operating at 60 per cent anc1 70 per cent capacity. The whoJe oil inf!ustry

April 2, 1976 Tape 1731 n-3 ~<R. ROBEPTS: ri~t nov is ~ had one . The Ministe~ of ~ines and Energy read out this 1~ood Gundy Peport on refining and marketinR p~ospects in Cll!lada, and I do not need to repeat what he said. But,you know,tbis is done fo~ the people who ~y want to buy stocks or are thinking of investing ~and the recommen~ation is do not put your money jnto oil stocks in the near future. It is not going to be a good market . 4647

April 2, 1976 Tape 1732 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: The overall average refinery operating rate in Canada during 1975 ~as about 85 per cent. This compares with rates of 90 per• cent to 97 per cent durir.g the previous twelve years. So you cannot blame the Come By Chance organization, NRC and PRC or any of these companies for any of that. They had nothing to do with it. They got nailed by it. They paid a dear price for it, They got, I have no doubt, millions of dollars in losses because of those factors for which they had no responsibility, and which they could not have effected. Mr.

Speaker, I still think there are some questions which sl\Ould be asked or answered, and I think we have a right to ask them in this House, Whether or not they can be answered is another story. The Minister of Hines and Energy told us that only four VLCC were needed to supply the product which would go into Borne By Chance. Now I have not bothered working it out; it is a thirty day trip and each one holds so many million barrels of oil, and at 100,000 barrels a day. You kflOW, I do not doubt the minister's statement. He says . only four t~ere needed. l~ell ~ why 1-1ere seven chartered?

The loss, the minister told us, I noted it down, was $3 million a month, which is $36 million a year. It is a lot of money. It is a lot of money. That is, over twenty-one months, $63 million right there on that heading alone. Now why were seven tankers chartered when four were enough? It might be something as legitimate or as simple as figuring yot: could buy now and use them later, in which case it is a gigantic gamble that turned into an even more gigantic disaster. The question is then, was it a prudent gamble? It may or may not have been.

What I do not understand is why the NRC or PRC,whoever had the charter parties, chartered them, because they were not going to build any new refinery. The new refinery was to be built by the Edison, the Newfoundland Edison, owned by the same principal, but a separate corporate structure, and they were obviously chartered long before there was any talk of any expansion, because the expansion,as we all recall,was very much an afterthought, after 4648

April 2, 1976 Tape 1732 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts ; it proved impossible to go ahead with the second refinery at this time. That is one question that, you know, somebody should answer. I do not know whether the minister has the responsibility for answering it. He is not a spokesman for the refining companies, he speaks for the government. But I think it is a very valid question, because of course that would account for the $63 million of the total losses right there, and that is a factor that, it seems to me, is within the control of the refinery organization.

They mu&t answer for what they can control, They cannot answer for what they did not control. I would like to know, Sir, as well,what steps were taken to try to correct the construction and the design problems. We are told, and we have been told publicly and consistently that the difficulties in getting the isomax . and the hydrogen units into production had a large part to play in this, in this disaster, the fact the refinery lost money.

We are told that the fact that these units were not in operation, or not producing at full capability meant that the product which came through the refinery were what they called the lower ends~as I understand it,of the distilling process, the refining process- I am not a technical man, and I do not know the technical terms ,- but as I say the heavier oils, not the lighter oils, and the lighter gasolines or whatever you call them , are apparently the more profitable, they sell for much more in the market than do the heavier oils.

As Your Honour knows you take a barrel of crude oil and,as I understand tt,you can crack it, you literally split into its component, component ai~tures, not mixtures, it is component substances. And out of one barrel you get some aviation gasoline,and you will get some motor car gasoline,and you will get some naphthas, and you will get some bunker c,and you will get the heavier crudes going right down to,I suppose, an asphalt. So that is what you do with your barrel.

And the more you can put it up the refining scale,the more of the lighter substances,the car gas and the aviation gas you can get out of it, the more money you get 4649

April 2 , 1976 Tape 1732 PK - 3 '·lr. Roberts : and the great~r ycur pr ofit. Because presumably it does not cost a great deal more once you got the refinery in place to push the harrel through to make it a higher grade stuff than it does to push it through and make lower grade product. lvell then , so we are told because of the isomax unit - do 1 have the term cor rect? Is that it?-and the hydrogen plant, and because tho~e two components were not working properly or perhaps we~e not wor king at all, the 4650

April 2, 1976 . UR. ROBERTS: Tape 1733 RR - 1 refinery was unable to produce the product mix it had hoped to produce, it should have produced, it was designed and intended to produce, and the result was their income was ~•ay down what it should have been and that obviously is reflected in the figures with which I began this statement. Well,then 1 what I want to know is why nothing was done,or if something was done, what was done.

You do not have a genius,and I am not, you do not have to know much about refineries,and I do not,to know that if you cannot make the profit you would hope to make,or even the return you would hope to make by - well,take an analogy. My friend from Fortune Bay and Hermitage ran a fish plant for many years with great success up in Gaultois, a fish plant there, rehabilitated it, built it into one of the best plants in this Province. Now you can take a pound of fish and you cannot do a great deal with it. You can either cut it into fillets or you can make it into fish meal.

Essentially that is the choice you have got. Am I correct? Yes. That is what you can do with it. Now my friend will confirm,or anybody will know that it is much more profitable to make that fish into fillets than to make it ineo meal. Maybe it is ten times as profitable. Hell,if my friend was running a fish plant and he discovered he could not cut his fish into fillets because his cutting lines 1vere not working properly 1 aad instead he had to take all the fish coming in,and he had contracted to buy fish and had it coming in, and put it in the meal plant and cook it up into meal, what would he do?

The first thing he would do is get those cutting lines fixed. Well,now, at Come By Chance obviously the first thing to have been done was to get the isomax and the hydrogen plant fixed. Well maybe that was ateempted. I assume it was. The people running it were not stupid. They had no desire tltat I can conceive to drive this project under. Hell,what was done? Even more to the point of this House, what did the government do? Because, Sir, the government throughout this project had retained their own firm of engineering consultants, a firm called Jacobs Engineering Company Limited - Jacobs Engineering.

I do not know whether they are a company limited. Eut they are Jacobs Engineering and they are, I ~elieve, based in California. Again my understanding,and the checks I made at the time,

Apr:tl 2, 1 "71'. '!TI. ROJlE~~TS: Tape 1733 Rll - 2 my knmvledge of it \Vas that these were, the Jacobs are absolutely superb at tl-Jat p-'1rticu1ar line of Hark. They are not Johnnie-Come-Latelies TI1ey are not a front company. They are not a bunch of amateurs. They know tl1eir stuff. They Here there. Perhaps it is worth refreshing Your Honour. ~'any memJ,ers of the House might not kno<-r this. They were there not as a result nf anything the present admin:l.stration have done. This wRs one of the good things the present administration inherited lvhen they CilffiC" in.

T.ndee<i I think they -.rill confirm the Come By Chance project 1·1hen they took it over administratively was in good shape. \.jhether or not i.t '•as sounrl in conception is a matter that prohahly we could not a11:ree upon. Rut certa:l.nly I tl-Jink they would agree, the ministers who have to deaJ Hith it,woulC. agree that it was in good shape when the seals of office were passed over to them.

But anyway, Jacobs Engineering were hirerl by us and by the Liberal administration right at the start, because it will l:>e recalled, Your Honour, that one of the original conditions precedent was that there had to be a feasibility study done. The original feasibility study was done by U.O."P., a Chicago firm - again leaders, experts, ahove question. So that WRS grC'at, we h;~d our feasil:>ility study. TI1e condition precerlent of the House that put in the legislation •ras met. Th