1990 Legislative Session: 4th Session, 34th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

WEDNESDAY, JULY 4, 1990

Afternoon Sitting

[ Page

10691 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Vancouver Charter Amendment Act (No – 1), 1990 (Bill PR402). Mr. Mowat

Introduction and first reading –– 10691

Vancouver Charter Amendment Act (No – 2), 1990 (Bill PR404). Mr. Mowat

Introduction and first reading –– 10691

An Economic Bill of Rights for Women (Bill M226). Ms. Marzari

Introduction and first reading –– 10691

An Act for Better Child Care (Bill M227). Ms. Marzari

Introduction and first reading –– 10692

Food Products Standards Act (Bill 57). Hon. Mr. Savage

Introduction and first reading –– 10692

British Columbia Wine Act (Bill 58). Hon. Mr. Savage

Introduction and first reading –– 10692

Tabling Documents –– 10693

Oral Questions

Air ambulance service. Mr. Gabelmann –– 10693

Naming of polluters. Mr. Cashore –– 10693

Transportation of oil. Mr. Long –– 10693

Earthquake-resistant schools. Ms. A. Hagen –– 10694

Apprenticeship training. Mr. Jones –– 10694

Securities Amendment Act, 1990 (Bill 56). Second reading.

(Hon. Mr. Couvelier)

Hon. Mr. Couvelier –– 10695

Mr. Sihota –– 10696

Hon. Mr. Couvelier –– 10696

Statutes Repeal Act, 1990, (Bill 2). Committee stage. (Hon. Mr. Smith) ––

Third reading

Foreign Money Claims Act (Bill 6). Committee stage. (Hon. Mr. Smith) –– 10697

Third reading

International Sale of Goods Act (Bill 7). Committee stage.

(Hon. Mr. Smith) –– 10697

Third reading

Conflict of Laws Rules for Trusts Act (Bill 8). Committee stage.

(Hon. Mr. Smith) –– 10697

Third reading

Offence Amendment Act, 1990 (Bill 53). Committee stage.

(Hon. Mr. Smith) –– 10697

Third reading

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Attorney-General estimates.

(Hon. Mr. Smith)

On vote 12: minister's office –– 10697

Ms. Marzari

Ms. A. Hagen

Mr. Sihota

Ms. Edwards

The House met at 2:04 p.m.

Prayers.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM :

July 4 is Independence Day in the United States. I would like to take

this opportunity to welcome all our American friends and neighbours who

may be in the gallery today. Independence has always been a hallmark of

American society, as was most evident many years ago when they rebelled

against an unjust tax imposed by a distant government. As a matter of

fact, Mr. Speaker, Boston is probably as far away from London, England,

as Victoria is from Ottawa. Bostonians showed their displeasure with

this unjust tax through the famous Boston Tea Party. In Victoria the

tradition is somewhat different; we have our tea at the Empress.

However, we too have a tax problem with a distant government — the

unpopular goods and services tax — and maybe we too should have our tea party in the Inner Harbour.

any event, I welcome all of our American visitors here today and those

who are visiting our beautiful province. I wish them a happy

Independence Day.

MR. SPEAKER : It's nice of the

Premier to do that but I would ask the Premier and all other members to

read Standing Orders where it deals with introductions. Today we have

really stretched the bounds of credibility of introductions.

MR. HARCOURT :

Mr. Speaker, to the many guests visiting our Legislature from the

United States, I too would like to bring greetings and to wish them

well in their day of independence. Just as a point of information, I'd

like to say that we did have the equivalent of the Boston Tea Party in

the Vancouver harbour. Brian Calder and a number of others have already

had that party to deal with that distant tax, and I think that it

should spread to the Victoria harbour and up to the Kelowna lake and

throughout this province to get rid of the GST.

MR. SPEAKER : Members may be advocating something which will be environmentally unacceptable.

HON. MR. REYNOLDS :

In the gallery this afternoon I'd like the House to welcome my son Rob

Reynolds and his friend Marc du Brule, who are over here on vacation.

MR. JONES :

Visiting today is a young man from North Burnaby whom I'm proud to

introduce to the Legislature. His name is Matt Csordas. Would members

give Matt the usual warm, desk-thumping welcome accorded visitors.

MR. BLENCOE : In the House today are two constituents of mine, Ron Acton

and his son Michael Acton. Will this House please make them very welcome.

MR. ROSE :

For at least one person in the gallery, this is a very important day:

her birthday. She's a former constituent of mine. I don't know how old

she is, but I'm told that she's just about old enough to vote and go

out with men. Her name is Justine Hunter, and she's a correspondent for

the Vancouver Sun . Would you all wish her a happy birthday.

MR. ZIRNHELT :

I'd ask the House to make my spouse welcome. She's here not to clean my

apartment, but to offer me policy and organizational advice. Mr.

Speaker, she's in your gallery: Susan Zirnhelt.

Introduction of Bills

VANCOUVER CHARTER AMENDMENT ACT

(No. 1), 1990

Mr. Mowat presented a bill intituled Vancouver Charter Amendment Act (No. 1), 1990.

Bill

PR402 introduced, read a first time and referred to the Select Standing

Committee on Standing Orders, Private Bills and Members' Services.

VANCOUVER CHARTER AMENDMENT ACT

(No. 2), 1990

Mr. Mowat presented a bill intituled Vancouver Charter Amendment Act (No. 2), 1990.

Bill

PR404 introduced, read a first time and referred to the Select Standing

Committee on Standing Orders, Private Bills and Members' Services.

AN ECONOMIC BILL OF RIGHTS

FOR WOMEN

Ms. Marzari presented a bill intituled An Economic Bill of Rights for Women.

MS. MARZARI :

This bill endorses the provision in the Canadian Charter of Rights and

Freedoms ensuring equality for women, and expresses the belief that all

British Columbians will benefit when both men and women have equal and

fair access to security, opportunity and choice.

The bill

establishes equality, freedom and opportunity for women as prime goals

of public policy in British Columbia, and recognizes that the lack of

economic independence continues to prevent women from attaining equal

status. Women working fulltime, full-year, make only 60 percent of

men's wages. Families headed by single mothers are five times more

likely to be poor than two-parent families.

Bill M226

introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the

day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

[ Page 10692 ]

MR. SPEAKER : Could the Chair please have a copy of the bill?

MS. MARZARI : Yes.

MR. SPEAKER :

Several members are standing wishing to introduce bills. I would just

advise all members that the Chair recognizes members in the order in

which the Chair is advised that bills are to be introduced, and

therefore I will go through that procedure. The first member for

Vancouver-Point Grey.

AN ACT FOR BETTER CHILD CARE

Ms. Marzari presented a bill intituled

An Act For Better Child Care.

MS. MARZARI :

Mr. Speaker, this is a perennial bill. This is its second appearance

before this House. It introduces a comprehensive, adequate, secure,

safe, licensed childcare system and puts it firmly within public policy

in British Columbia. This bill recognizes that many childcare spaces

that now exist are unlicensed, but provides incentives for those people

operating unlicensed centres to license their centres. This bill

guarantees properly monitored, properly trained, properly open, and

geographically accessible childcare throughout this province.

Bill

M227 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders

of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after

today.

FOOD PRODUCTS STANDARDS ACT

Hon. Mr. Savage presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor:

a bill intituled Food Products Standards Act.

HON. MR. SAVAGE :

Mr. Speaker, this legislation will be used by the processing and

manufacturing sectors of the food industry to assist with developing

marketing strategies. When standards are adopted or established for a

food product, content and quality information will be made available to

consumers. Consumer awareness will be beneficial because of the

information that is required by consumers; this will educate them to

the quality of the products that are contained therein. By this bill,

consumers may well become more loyal to the products meeting these

standards.

Content and quality standards will be set by

adopting standards of food quality or content for particular foods and

classes of foods that are set by the Food and Drugs Act of Canada. The

province will only establish standards when it is clear, after full

consultation with the sector to which a standard applies, that such

standards will benefit that sector.

The legislation will encourage the food-manufacturing and -processing industries

to develop marketing strategies based on standards programs, and it will increase

product quality information available to consumers through implementation of

standards programs.

Bill

57 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of

the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

[2:15]

BRITISH COLUMBIA WINE ACT

Hon. Mr. Savage presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor:

a bill intituled British Columbia Wine Act.

HON. MR. SAVAGE :

Mr. Speaker, this legislation will enable the B.C. wine industry to

develop a place in the premium wine market and enhance its competitive

position. It needs to develop a market in which it can compete without

preference.

This bill creates a British Columbia Wine

Institute which will represent the industry and have the power to set

and enforce wine standards for wines made of 100 percent B.C. grapes

and B.C. grape products. The institute will have the power to levy

grapes and wine produced as well as to charge fees for testing and the

use of a B.C. wine trademark. The institute will spend the funds raised

on promotion, research and education on behalf of our B.C. wine

industry. The institute will create enforceable standards, allow B.C.

wines to be promoted as meeting those high-quality standards, and thus

make it possible to charge the high prices needed to meet production

costs.

The industry needs a way to create and enforce

premium standards to gain access to the premium market. This

legislation will be an important step in the creation of a competitive

and internationally recognized B.C. premium wine industry.

Bill

58 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of

the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Hon.

Mr. Davis tabled the annual report of the Ministry of Energy, Mines and

Petroleum Resources for the 1988-89 fiscal year; the annual report of

the B.C. Petroleum Corporation for the fiscal year ended March 31,

1990; and the annual report of the British Columbia Utilities

Commission for the calendar year 1989.

MR. SPEAKER : The Minister of Transportation and Highways.

HON. MRS. JOHNSTON : Mr. Speaker, it must be the weather. I note you're a wee bit testy today.

MR. SPEAKER :

I would advise the member that you will really know when I am testy.

Today I'm not testy; you're just trying me a bit. [Laughter.]

HON. MRS, JOHNSTON : Likewise. [Laughter.]

[ Page

10693 ]

Hon. Mrs. Johnston presented the 1989-90 annual report of British Columbia Transit.

Oral Questions

AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE

MR. GABELMANN :

Yesterday in question period the Minister of Health, in response to

questions concerning the air ambulance, said: "I am not aware of hours

being cut. Generally what happens is that the service is related to

demand for that service." Later he said: "The question of aircraft

utilization is based on patient needs, and that is the primary

criterion for allocating aircraft." The Emergency Health Services

Commission annual report says: "The government air services branch

again reduced their committed service hours." I would like to ask the

Minister of Health if he would confirm that the air ambulance service

is governed by patient demand.

HON. J. JANSEN : The

opposition members seem to have a jet-set mentality. I would like to

indicate that it is not the airplane that determines the call; it is

the call that determines the airplane. If the patient needs are

distinct, are separate, related to an airplane type of supply.... I

mentioned yesterday that there are a number of reasons why the

utilization would differ. It relates to patient needs; it relates to

geographic calls that are different from year to year.

Again

I indicate that my primary concern is the patient. My concern is

getting to the patient as quickly as possible and from different parts

of the province, and my concern is to provide whatever aircraft is

necessary for that patient.

MR. GABELMANN : In the

past five years, calls on the service have increased by some 37 percent

Airports in British Columbia are better now than they were five years

ago, in terms of the ability of Cessnas to land. Yet the government air

services diminished by some 34 percent. Can the minister explain why

the demand has increased, the airports are better, yet the service has

decreased?

HON. J. JANSEN : For one thing, Mr.

Speaker, it's the number of aircraft that are different as well. But I

don't understand what the member is talking about If we have a call

from Castlegar and we have a private contractor in Castlegar providing

service, why would we phone Victoria to deliver a jet to that patient

when he's in trouble? Why are we talking about airplanes and runways?

Why don't we talk about people for a change? I have indicated several

times in the House that my mandate is to provide patient care as

quickly as possible from whatever part of the province I need and with

whatever type of aircraft I need.

MR. GABELMANN : Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Government

Management Services. The government air fleet has six jets — five Cessnas and

the Challenger. Last year these six jets each flew 264 hours, on average, for

emergency health services. That's five hours a week each. Take the Challenger

out of it, because it may not be so appropriate; that's six hours a week

each for emergency health services. Would the minister still agree that the

primary purpose of the government air fleet is emergency health services?

HON. MRS. GRAN :

Yes, Mr. Speaker, the priority of government air services is for

ambulance use. If one or all of the airplanes are needed for ambulance

purposes, that's what they're used for. That is the priority.

MR. GABELMANN :

I want to ask the minister if she agrees that it is in the taxpayers'

best interest to have six aircraft each operating five hours a week on

behalf of the emergency health services in this province. Is that a

good use of taxpayers' money in this province?

NAMING OF POLLUTERS

MR. CASHORE :

I have a question to the Minister of Environment, Mr. Speaker. At the

beginning of last week, the minister promised to release within a week

the list of polluters that are not in compliance with their permits.

Interjections.

MR. CASHORE :

Mr. Speaker, I want the minister to hear the question. This promise was

first made 15 months ago by the minister's predecessor, and it was

repeated in July of last year and in February, March and on April 23 of

this year in this House. Has the minister finally decided to quit

stalling and release that list today?

HON. MR. REYNOLDS :

Mr. Speaker, I couldn't have planted that question any better with one

of my colleagues. I'm pleased to tell the whole House that I'll be

releasing that information at 9 o'clock next Tuesday morning.

TRANSPORTATION OF OIL

MR. LONG :

Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Environment. In view of

the continuing danger of oil spills on the B.C. coast, will the

minister commit himself to implementing the recommendations of the oil

spill task force, including requiring doubled hulls for tankers and

replacing tanker traffic with a pipeline where possible?

HON. MR. REYNOLDS : Mr. Speaker, that urgent question I would have expected from the opposition.

Nevertheless,

I would advise the member that I have had an opportunity to review the

interim report from the task force which was set up by the Premier of

this province a number of months ago in his initiative with the

Governor of Washington. I can tell him that we expect, when the final

report is ready in

[ Page 10694 ]

September,

that this government will support all the recommendations of that task

force, especially the ones to do with the pipeline and with

double-hulling and the other important issues that the task force has

worked on so diligently.

On behalf of all members of this

House, I'm sure, I would like to congratulate all the members of that

task force from every state and the province of British Columbia for

the good job that they're doing.

EARTHQUAKE-RESISTANT SCHOOLS

MS. A. HAGEN :

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Education agreed to support

school districts that must make major changes in their schools in order

to make these schools more earthquake-resistant. In light of the

Vancouver School Board's recent report, has the minister decided to

make additional funds available to the Vancouver School Board so that

they can begin structurally upgrading the schools that need the

additional change?

HON. MR. BRUMMET : Mr. Speaker,

first of all, the member asked me if I would review the situation, and

I said yes, I would support boards in their efforts to deal with

earthquake preparedness. We have already put quite a bit of funding

towards improving schools. As a matter of fact, in the last couple of

years about $151 million went towards fixing up schools — additions. In any case, where there is a major addition the school is always earthquake-proofed.

MS. A. HAGEN :

Mr. Speaker, the moneys that the minister is suggesting are allocated

to schools are for regular maintenance and upgrading. We're talking

about earthquake-resistance upgrading.

Given that a third

of Vancouver schools now face the prospect of high risk of death to

students, teachers and others who use those schools — in the event of a large earthquake — is

the minister now prepared to commit additional funds to meet the needs

of that school district to upgrade those schools? An amount of $200-400

million has been suggested specifically for this need and not for the

regular capital costs of schools. Can the minister tell us how much

money will be available specifically for this extraordinary need of

Vancouver and other school districts?

[2:30]

HON. MR. BRUMMET :

No, I can't give an answer on the specific amount of money that will be

available. Unlike the member in the opposition, I'm not clairvoyant.

We have put $500, 000 — 50 percent of the funding — for engineering studies

to see what needs to be done in those places. Of course, we will proceed as

expeditiously as possible, but not by earmarking a certain amount of money in

advance before the engineering studies have determined the cost.

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING

MR. JONES :

To the minister responsible for job training. Effective apprenticeship

training requires a hands-on consultative process,

whereas the Open

Learning Institute is geared to providing effective but modular

distance learning. Can the minister explain his decision to transfer

apprenticeship field operations staff from his ministry to the Open

Learning Agency?

HON. MR. STRACHAN : As the member

should be aware, this move is part of a major review of apprenticeship

training. The purpose of the review is to determine the best structure

for providing job training, apprenticeship and vocational

rehabilitation services in the 1990s. The work force across Canada and

in British Columbia is facing new challenges emerging from

international competitiveness...

Interjection.

HON. MR. STRACHAN : Yes, I was ready for this question.

MR. LOVICK : That's clairvoyance.

MR. STRACHAN : That's clairvoyance, yes.

...

application of technology in the workplace and changing patterns of

work. We need to be in the right position to increase our efforts in

the community to ensure that our workforce is able to respond to these

challenges.

We have strong partnerships in the community

now, and we want to build on them. One of the major partnerships we

have in this province — and one of the best instruments we have for providing distance education — is the Open Learning authority, Mr. Speaker.

see this agency as probably the best instrument that we can provide for

this distance education. They have an extremely good reputation. They

have been very, very effective. They are currently the second largest

training educational institution in the province. At 22,000 students,

they are second only to the University of British Columbia. I have

every faith that the Open Learning Agency will provide a superb service

and meet the needs of our province in terms of apprenticeship and job

training.

I have more, if the member has a supplementary.

MR. JONES : You bet I have — a supplementary to the same minister.

Why is this minister wasting taxpayers' dollars on a Price Waterhouse review when in fact — according to the Open Learning Agency staff — they

can expect as many as 60 FTEs being transferred in? Why is he wasting

taxpayers' dollars on this review when the decision has already been

made?

HON. MR. STRACHAN : I'll read the rest of the answer now.

[ Page

10695 ]

I don't consider a review of the apprenticeship system wasting

taxpayers' money. It's really easy for the buttoned-down mind in

Burnaby to believe that the centre of the universe is at SFU. But

there's more to the province than the lower mainland. There's a huge

apprenticeship system out there that does need review, that must be

looked at.

We are giving it our best resources and we are

determining in our own fashion the best way of delivering the service.

It's very, very important to us. This is not the nineteenth century

anymore, my friend; this is the twentieth, soon to be the twenty-first

century. We must have the best resources available to us. We must do

the best review we can. It's a very, very important facet of training

for the twenty-first century, and our government is looking forward to

providing it in the best possible fashion.

Orders of the Day

HON. MR. RICHMOND : I call second reading of Bill 56.

SECURITIES AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

HON. MR. COUVELIER :

This bill represents another major step in the program to update and

modernize B.C.'s financial and corporate regulatory legislation. In the

past three years this government has led the country in developing and

implementing innovative legislation designed to strengthen the legal

and regulatory infrastructure of the province's financial marketplace.

have made major amendments to the Securities Act, giving British

Columbia the most advanced securities legislation in Canada. We have

overhauled the legislation governing insurance companies, trust

companies and credit unions.

MR. SPEAKER : Order,

please. Perhaps those members who wish to leave or to have private

conversations would do it elsewhere. We'll let the minister continue

with second reading.

HON. MR. COUVELIER : The

regulation of all financial institutions will now be consolidated under

the new Financial Institutions Act when it comes into force this

summer. We have brought in new legislation to facilitate the

establishment of international financial businesses and captive

insurance companies, making Vancouver more competitive as an

international financial centre. And we have brought in a new Personal

Property Security Act to give B.C. a comprehensive and effective

framework for the registration of interests in personal property. That

legislation will come into force in the fall.

There is more to come, beginning with the bill we are now considering. The

primary purpose of this bill is to modernize the legislation governing trading

in exchange contracts. Exchange contracts are complex financial instruments

that provide a mechanism for the transfer of market risk. Typically they are

used by persons wishing to limit their exposure to market price fluctuations,

called hedgers, and persons willing to assume risk in exchange for an expected

return, called speculators.

Exchange

contracts are generally of two types: futures and options. In order to

qualify as an exchange contract, an instrument must be traded on an

exchange on standardized terms and must be guaranteed by a clearing

agency.

Trading in exchange contracts has been growing

rapidly on a worldwide basis over the past decade. This growth reflects

the increasing sophistication of investment and risk management

strategies and the search by investors for new investment alternatives,

particularly following the equity market crash of October '87.

The

Vancouver Stock Exchange currently trades two types of exchange

contracts. Equity options backed by a clearing organization called

Trans Canada Options are traded on the VSE as part of a cooperative

arrangement with the Toronto Stock Exchange and the Montreal exchange.

Options on precious metals backed by the International Options Clearing

Corp. are traded on the VSE under an arrangement with the Montreal,

Amsterdam and Sydney exchanges. In the future it may be possible for

the VSE to diversify into other types of exchange contracts,

particularly related to commodities produced in British Columbia.

ensure that international investors will have confidence in the VSE as

an exchange-contract market, it is important that B.C. have effective

legislation for the regulation of trading and exchange contracts. In

addition, there are a number of dealers in the province that provide

their clients access to the trading of exchange contracts on the major

world exchanges in Chicago, New York, London and other centres;

effective regulation is needed to ensure that clients of those dealers

receive appropriate protection.

Regulation of exchange

contracts is currently provided for under the Commodity Contract Act,

which was originally passed in 1978. Because of the deficiencies in

this legislation, it was not brought into force until 1985, after some

significant amendments were made. Despite those amendments, however,

the Commodity Contract Act is not adequate to deal with the

exchange-contract industry as it currently operates and is organized.

In particular, the registration requirements are outmoded; in light of

the changes in the structure of the industry, the financial reporting

and filing requirements for registrants are inadequate and difficult to

monitor; and the enforcement powers are limited in comparison with

those in the Securities Act.

The effect of this bill is to

repeal the Commodity Contract Act and incorporate provisions for the

regulation of exchange contracts in the Securities Act. In developing

this legislation, we began on the assumption that we would continue to

regulate exchange contracts under separate legislation, because that is

the practice in other jurisdictions. However, because of the

similarities in regulatory structures for securities and

exchange-contract dealers and advisers, it

[ Page 10696 ]

became

apparent that a new act to replace the Commodity Contract Act would

contain a great duplication of what is now in the Securities Act. We

also observed that as new financial instruments have been developed in

the United States, considerable controversy has arisen as to whether

they should be regulated under the securities legislation or the

commodity contract legislation. In light of these facts, we concluded

that the simplest and most efficient way of updating the legislation

governing exchange contracts is to combine it with the Securities Act.

This bill will give British Columbia the most advanced legislation in

Canada for both securities and exchange contracts.

addition to the exchange-contract-related amendments, Bill 56 contains

a number of minor amendments to the Securities Act and a consequential

amendment to the Personal Property Security Act. The latter amendment

will facilitate the operation of the book-based system for the holding

of securities by ensuring that securities held through a clearing

agency can be pledged as collateral. I propose to leave discussion of

these items to debate in committee.

I move second reading of Bill 56.

MR. SIHOTA :

Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House have taken the view for some

time now that Vancouver has the ability to become the best venture

capital stock exchange in the world in all areas, including the area of

commodity trading. There's no doubt in my mind that the provisions with

respect to commodity matters ought to be incorporated as a whole into

the provisions of the Securities Act, as opposed to being left

distinct, as they were previously under the Commodity Contract Act. I

have no problem with that whatsoever, and I think that the steps taken

by the minister in that regard are prudent.

I'm no longer

the critic for securities, so it has been some time since I've looked

carefully at commodity matters. Our critic is not here today. I

understand the minister has made a commitment to deal with this

legislation in principle during third reading if necessary, and we

appreciate that offer from the minister. At that point I am sure we

will be making further comments.

There are a number of

other housekeeping changes to the Securities Act that I think are

welcome. The minister knows full well that we have had exchanges in

this House with respect to securities matters and differences of

opinion as to how well security matters in British Columbia are being

regulated. There have been some rather heated exchanges with respect to

the inadequacies of regulation monitoring, compliance and enforcement

in the securities area.

Be that as it may, I think we're all interested in making sure of — and

seeing the need for — appropriate legislative provisions to regulate the market

so as to prevent some of the abuses that have occurred in the past and also

to make sure that the legislation reflects contemporary trading practices. What

is being proposed here tries to do at least the latter. With that in mind, I

have no difficulty with that intent of the legislation.

Because of the rather lengthy debates we've had on securities matters over the past three and a half years — almost four now that we've been members of the Legislature — I

welcome the fact that the government is prepared to bring forward some

amendments to address some of the issues we've raised and some of the

issues we haven't raised that I think still need attending to. Again, I

see some of that occurring in this bill.

There is a

recognition that both sides of the House wish the stock exchange to

become the best that we can possibly make it to attract investment from

throughout the world, because that augurs well for enterprise in B.C.

Having

said that and knowing that the minister has agreed that we may comment

on it further when our critic is here, I'll conclude my comments at

this point and leave it up to our critic to embellish further on the

legislation.

MR. SPEAKER : Pursuant to the standing orders, the House is advised that the Minister of Finance closes debate.

[2:45]

HON. MR. COUVELIER :

I note the comments of the member opposite and will look forward to

further discussion during committee stage. I just want to make the

point that while the member commented that there had been heated

exchanges in the House about "inadequacies" in the regulatory system, I

want to add the word "historical" — historical inadequacies. In that respect I think we may not have too much disagreement.

think it's less than accurate to describe the current regime as being

inadequate. Indeed, they are perceived across the country as being the

best, the most sophisticated and the most capable of all the regulators

active in Canada with the responsibility to manage the securities

industry. So I am proud to be the agency through which they report to

the House.

We will have further discussion during committee

stage. Therefore I move that the bill be referred to a Committee of the

Whole House for the next sitting of the House after today.

Motion approved.

Bill

56, Securities Amendment Act, 1990, read a second time and referred to

a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of

the House after today.

HON. MR. SMITH : I call committee on Bill 2, Mr. Speaker.

STATUTES REPEAL ACT, 1990

The House in committee on Bill 2; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

[ Page

10697 ]

Sections 1 and 2 approved.

Title approved.

HON. MR. SMITH : I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment.

Motion approved.

[Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.]

The House resumed; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

Bill 2, Statutes Repeal Act, 1990, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed.

MR. SIHOTA : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, maybe you didn't hear me, but I did not agree to leave with respect to....

DEPUTY SPEAKER : Sorry, hon. member, leave is not required to bring a bill forward for third reading.

HON. MR. SMITH : Mr. Speaker, I call committee on Bill 6.

FOREIGN MONEY CLAIMS ACT

The House in committee on Bill 6; Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.

Sections 1 to 6 inclusive approved.

Title approved.

HON. MR. SMITH : Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise and report Bill 6 complete without amendment.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

Bill 6, Foreign Money Claims Act, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed.

HON. MR. SMITH : Mr. Speaker, I call committee on Bill 7.

INTERNATIONAL SALE OF GOODS ACT

The House in committee on Bill 7; Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.

Sections 1 to 6 inclusive approved.

Schedule approved.

Title approved.

HON. MR. SMITH : Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise and report Bill 7 complete without amendment.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

Bill 7, International Sale of Goods Act, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed.

HON. MR. SMITH : Mr. Speaker, I call committee on Bill 8.

CONFLICT OF LAWS RULES

FOR TRUSTS ACT

The House in committee on Bill 8; Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.

Sections 1 to 9 inclusive approved.

Title approved.

HON. MR. SMITH : Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

Bill 8, Conflict of Laws Rules for Trusts Act, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed.

HON. MR. SMITH : I call committee on Bill 53.

OFFENCE AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

The House in committee on Bill 53; Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.

Sections 1 to 15 inclusive approved.

Title approved.

HON. MR. SMITH : Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

Bill 53, Offence Amendment Act, 1990, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed.

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

[ Page 10698 ]

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

On vote 12: minister's office, $267,471 (continued).

MS. MARZARI :

Mr. Chairman, one of the recurring themes that I've raised in a number

of estimates throughout this session has been that of child abuse and

violence against children and women. What I've tried to do is, as each

ministry has come forward to have its budget investigated, ask

questions of the ministers about what and how they are plugged into

active coordination of programs and services and budgets related to

child abuse.

In my approach to the Attorney-General, I must

say that his ministry is probably one of the most important in terms of

providing guidance, leadership and assistance to ensure that in the

connections that bring justice to a child or woman who has been

sexually abused or assaulted, his ministry is the one which ties the

courts and the judicial system into the process.

One of the

things I've discovered in the last few months is that although each

individual ministry has great words to say and a lot of rhetoric about

how we want to fight child abuse and sexual assault, in fact, a number

of isolated programs have been developed, but in reality those programs

are not coordinated. They do not perform in any systematic, cohesive

way of approaching the problem. In other words, a child or woman

approaches the system, having been assaulted or having remembered that,

they were offended at some time in their lives, and finds a series of

piecemeal programs and services which may or may not exist in their

communities and which very often prevent them from having access to the

full course of justice. We find that while, there may be a sympathetic

teacher at a school ready to hear a disclosure, there's no appropriate

access to the courts; or we may find that there's no appropriate

treatment or follow-up after the fact for the mother or the child.

We may find that there's only three months of treatment paid for under

workers' compensation, when in fact there might need to be two or

three years of assistance offered.

My questions to

the Attorney-General, as they have been directed to other ministers,

have to do with one database. We can't develop a cohesive integrated

program until every ministry knows what they're dealing with. So my

first questions to the Attorney-General have to do with building a

database and whether we actually know what we've got: what we have in

terms of charges pressed against offenders, or child abusers; whether

we know right now if that information is available; whether cases have

been properly concluded; whether we know how many cases there are in

which the offender has been prosecuted and is serving time or doing

other community service, and what the nature of that service or time

looks like — in other words, whether the punishment fits the crime.

[3:00]

would be interested in asking the Attorney-General now whether he has a

database which would help us to develop a comprehensive program and

which would plug his ministry into Health, Social Services and Housing

and the women's programs ministry — if it's capable of contributing

anything to this debate. So I would ask the Attorney-General: how many

charges have been pressed in the last year? How many sexual offenders

have had cases concluded in the courts? How many children have been

brought before the courts to be heard? What kinds of sentences have

been brought down on offenders who are found guilty?

HON. MR. SMITH :

The member raises some extremely important, timely and good questions

on this whole issue. As I said yesterday and have said previously, one

of the things that occurred to me when I began implementing the reforms

that have been implemented throughout the entire justice system in the

last year was the extent to which there wasn't good, solid data

relative to most aspects of the system that could be utilized in some

really meaningful way to assist in policy development. As a consequence

of that, I was of the view that far too much of what we did relied on

anecdotal information and statistical references which may very well

have been inappropriately unrelated.

One of the important

initiatives we have undertaken through that process is to develop

systems for evaluation of all matters pertaining to this ministry. This

includes matters related to the topic that the member is referring to:

the very serious issues of child abuse and sexual abuse, which may not

involve children.

To that end, we have done a number of

things that the member might be interested in through the office of

information technology, a coordinating body which in

part involves us,

but more significantly involves the Ministry of Government Management

Services. The deputies from a host of industries have developed and are

developing programs to pull together the appropriate data from each

organization, exactly as the member suggests. I know that that is an

important step forward and a major improvement over the way information

has been handled in the past.

Specific to our own industry, we have a number of matters in which we have made changes. First of all — and, I think, significantly — I

instructed that prosecutions of spousal assault be treated, and be seen

to be treated, no differently than assault by a stranger. There

certainly was the perception — I'm not going to suggest that the perception was correct, although I have my own views on that — that

indeed it was treated differently. I am of the view that spousal

assault is just as serious a matter as any other assault and that,

insofar as the criminal justice system is concerned, it should be

treated thus. I announced that change last year, and it is now part and

parcel of the system.

Inside the Crown counsel office we now have prosecutors who specialize in dealing with child

[ Page

10699 ]

abuse matters, and we are adding more to that team

as time goes along. They are recognized by the courts, and by the

agencies that children may have to deal with, for their expertise. They

take special courses in psychology and the like, dealing with matters

that would pertain to child abuse cases.

We have also

developed and are developing victims' programs, working with victims of

child and sexual abuse. To some lesser extent, we have developed and

are developing programs that deal with the offender who, I think it's

important to recognize, must be dealt with as well. That offender

typically will be on the street after the sentence is served and,

equally typically, has to have some resources available to try to alter

the behaviour patterns which sometimes lead to the offences.

terms of the specific questions you asked about the number of

information’s sworn or cases initiated, I can't provide you with that

information. I could, however, get the number of cases that have been

prosecuted.

Of course, we now have a comprehensive

sentencing database in British Columbia from which we can and do get

sentencing data. That assists not only the Crown but the bench in the

training that they have undertaken and are undertaking with respect to

these matters — as all other matters. Of course, we have available the

number of cases that have been dealt with by the victim assistance

program.

I would like to say, parenthetically, that

sentencing is one of the areas to which I intend to give some priority

in the next months, in terms of working with all who are involved to

try to develop some common thrusts in terms of examining appropriate

sentences and alternative means of dealing with people who are going to

be sentenced.

If I sound hesitant about that, it is simply because sentencing — as I'm sure the member is aware — is

the purview of the bench, of the judiciary. I can offer a view, but the

long story made short is that sentences are determined by judges based

on the facts before them. It is a matter that they and we are alert to.

We're

trying to develop ways that we can perhaps put the considerable

resources that are in the system now to work in a way that will not

only protect the public interest and the public's concern for safety,

but also do a better job of assisting and rehabilitating the offender.

MR. CHAIRMAN : just before we proceed, the Minister of Native Affairs seeks leave to make an introduction.

Leave granted.

HON. MR. WEISGERBER : It's a rare pleasure for me to have an opportunity

to welcome guests in the House, and an even rarer opportunity to introduce friends

and relatives. Joining us today in the west gallery are my sister Lorna Billings,

her husband Lloyd and their son Logan, who's certainly one of my very favourite

nephews. Would the House please give them a very warm welcome.

MS. MARZARI :

The situation is an urgent one. It's one which has come to our

attention in the media more and more in the last few years.

Specifically, since I have been researching, I cannot open the

newspaper on any given day without seeing print jumping off the page

about another case of child abuse, another case of assault or another

case where victims are being created in our society — a society which

should be doing everything it can not to create victims, and which

certainly can afford not to create them. So it's urgent.

The

Attorney-General has suggested a database might be on its way, but it

is not here yet. You have a couple of tools there that you can work on

and work with, but basically you don't have that stuff before you.

Until

you can label it, measure it and name it, the problem cannot be

defined. That is my chief frustration as I stand in this House. We know

that there is a problem, but we have not defined it or looked at its

magnitude. Because we haven't looked at its magnitude, we are

developing small, piecemeal programs to deal with what we think may be

a small problem, and we aren't connecting those programs and realizing

that what we have in terms of abuse of women and children is mainstream

activity going on in our community. It's an awful thought, and until we

measure it, label it and define it, we don't have a case to talk about

developing mainstream programs to deal with it.

Some of the

things that have come across to me, Mr. Attorney-General, have been

that the police are overloaded and that what is required is close

integration with the school systems so that those systems which do

introduce child sexual education and streetwising.... Very often these

programs — one called the CARE program — are introduced in June of each

year. Therefore, because they remember that they have been abused or

they feel brave enough to say that they are being abused, children

disclose in June of each year. The police are not able to handle the

amount of complaints and disclosures that come at one time of the year.

Then when the police are finished with the case or are ready to

proceed, the courts cannot take the overload.

Very often

the courts find that they're dealing with a child who has been

interrogated too often, and there is a problem with something that they

call contaminated information." In other words, the child has been

questioned so often that the child's memory has become contaminated — if you can imagine the use of the word, but that's the word that's used — so that the evidence is not admissible in court.

Another

problem has been discussed, in fact, by some of the very staff that

you've talked about. Prosecutor Wendy Harvey, a very competent

individual, has talked about the necessity to create a child sensitive,

child-friendly courtroom. I would ask you how you are proceeding along

those lines. It seems to

[ Page 10700 ]

that if there was a study to be commissioned , it's that very study:

what you can do now, tomorrow, in the next few weeks, to ensure that

you set the tone. You obviously can't set the sentence or tell the

judge what to do, but there is a tone that you can set by making the

courtroom friendlier, by advising judges on what might be available to

them, and by providing the training to the judges so that they are

sensitive to a child's testimony. We've all suffered through the

adverse comments made around Judge van der Hoop — I think that was his name — on the three-year-old last year.

[3:15]

So you can set a tone, Mr. Attorney-General. You can deal with the

backlog. You can even off, perhaps, the rate at which cases appear

before the court. You can make the courtroom friendlier. You can

perhaps make the business of prosecution and of bringing a case to the

court an easier one. These are things that you are capable of doing.

Perhaps by commissioning a report on each of these stages in the

process, you can integrate them and find yourself with a comprehensive

program rather than with a loose-leaf group of individual small steps.

You can actually perhaps pull together something a little more

comprehensive than you've done thus far.

One of the other

comments that has been raised is about the Statute of Limitations. Are

you prepared to introduce legislation which would in fact make it

possible for a child to disclose? I believe that the Statute of

Limitations is now two years between the time a child has been offended

or abused and the time when that child must report. Is the

Attorney-General prepared to make the necessary changes to increase the

amount of time that a child has?

HON. MR. SMITH : Mr.

Chairman, I'll just deal with the last issue first. I'm unaware of a

Statute of Limitations in criminal matters at all. Indeed, we

prosecute.... Oh, goodness me, I'm familiar with a case earlier on that

was prosecuted involving an alleged sexual abuse in the late 1950s;

that case was prosecuted about six months ago and a conviction entered

and a sentence rendered. So I'm not quite sure what the member is

referring to with a Statute of Limitations on criminal matters, but

maybe it was something else she was referring to.

I think

we have a somewhat more comprehensive view of the issues than the

member is aware of. I agree with her that it isn't a matter of ad

hockery, of one program versus another, or something. There's a whole

range of issues that have to be dealt with right across the gamut of

social policy considerations.

One such program is dealing

with the sexual abuse committee that is chaired, or at least

coordinated, by the Ministry of Health and to whose budget we

contribute. It involves as well the Ministry of Social Services and us,

and it deals with the very issue that the member was referring to — young witnesses who are overwhelmed by the process of testimony.

We are in fact examining the issue of a child friendly courtroom. As you know,

we are taking steps to get rid of the Yale Street court facility and are consolidating

the family court and small claims divisions at Robson Square. At this location

we're providing child care services with a framework in which there will

be better coordination between the Supreme Court and the Provincial Court in

terms of jurisdictional issues. This is a very comprehensive program. One of

the things that we are looking at is the configuration of courtrooms with the

user clearly in mind.

The

other matter that the member referred to is the amount of time it takes

for trials to come to the courtroom. Again, we are dealing with that on

a comprehensive basis to the extent that we can. I must tell you that

one of the very important factors in that whole equation in our system

is the role of defence counsel. They have the right and the ability to

use — and indeed do use — the system, as is their duty, to the best

advantage of their client. Sometimes that may mean awaiting trial time

to provide an opportunity for their client. So it's not, by any stretch

of the imagination, entirely a matter that can be dealt with from the

prosecution side.

Having said that, we have moved, through

our reform process, to a disclosure court system at 222 Main, which has

been extremely successful. This disclosure court system has reduced the

amount of witness time required by police and by others. It narrows

issues down, and it focuses on the issues that are truly in dispute.

It's been an extremely successful program and will be expanded when the

evaluation of it is completed. It is not yet a year old,

have just come back from a conference of Attorneys-General in

Peterborough, where, interestingly enough, it turned out that the

turnaround time of criminal matters in British Columbia is one of the

best in Canada. I know the people in Ontario were quite amazed at how

quickly our trials come to court and are dealt with. That isn't to say

there isn't room always to improve.

In terms of training

the judiciary in these issues, I think it's important to note that the

judiciary don't advertise what they're doing and hold press

conferences. That puts them at a considerable disadvantage when they're

criticized and attacked, as they are from time to time. The judiciary

are undertaking a whole range of training issues dealing with exactly

the matters that you'll be talking about. I'm talking now particularly

about the Provincial Court matters relating to sentencing disparity,

sentencing of aboriginal people, sexual assault sentencing, the role

that gender bias plays in the court and in the system generally and

issues relating to victims.

As well, they have undertaken a

number of cross-cultural workshops, which were sponsored by the Western

judicial Education Conference, a group that we contribute to

handsomely, both in terms of money and personnel, involving judges from

all across western Canada. That cross-cultural workshop has involved

not only people from the judiciary but also people involved in the

judicial system.

While I don't pretend that we cannot always improve, because I am the first one to admit always

[ Page

10701 ]

that we can, I think it must be said that there is

indeed a comprehensive program ongoing, dealing with the issues you

raise, that involves cross-ministry coordination, changes to policy

relative to prosecution, education for people in the judiciary and for

those who deal with the courts, reform of the rules of court, changes

to the physical makeup of the court and advances in resources and in

availability in terms of sentencing and victims programs.

That

involves, as well, an ongoing development of a comprehensive data

system so that we can make sound choices on policy issues as we move

into dealing with this issue which has been around us since time

immemorial. In fact, it hasn't been dealt with publicly until recently

for a whole range of very complex societal reasons. Thankfully it is

now being dealt with in the open, and resources are being committed to

deal with the worst aspects of the problem, which in my view — and in that of others — is

the fact that, statistically, those who are offended tend themselves to

become offenders. If you think that through with any degree of

seriousness and understanding, you are going to have an exponential

rate of growth. I think that is the most significant and important

issue we can and must focus on.

MS. A. HAGEN : I want

to take a few minutes during the estimates of the Attorney-General to

discuss an issue of significance in my riding. I'd like to begin my

comments by picking up on some of the remarks the Attorney-General made

yesterday as we resumed debate on his estimates. He was specifically

commenting on the work of legal services in the province and on the

initiatives his ministry has taken in that regard.

One of

the paralegal organizations that comes under that broader service is

Westminster Community Legal Services in New Westminster, an

organization that provides very important and extensive service. I

mention it at the start of my remarks simply to note that one of the

reasons that organization is able to provide such good service is its

location in the city of New Westminster, where people not only from my

city but from surrounding suburban regions have ready access to it.

Indeed, one of the characteristics of New Westminster as a county seat

and as a judicial, administrative and financial centre over the many

years of its history has been its strategic location.

present the city is very much concerned about the land title office in

New Westminster. I have had opportunities to discuss this issue both

with the Attorney-General and with members of his staff. The

Attorney-General has announced that there are going to be some changes

in the land title districts of the province, brought about in

considerable measure by changes in the Robson Square Media Centre and

the expansion of the courts there. The Vancouver land title office is

going to have to move because of the expansion of court services in

Vancouver, and the Attorney-General has indicated that it is his

intention that the Vancouver land title office will be amalgamated with

the New Westminster office,

The amalgamation has been

received with some concern. I don't think there's universal support for

that amalgamation in my community, but there is an acceptance that,

since that decision has been made and the Attorney-General has

indicated his intention to go ahead with it, we will proceed from that

knowledge and from that policy decision.

The issue of

concern in the riding, then, is where the amalgamated office will be

located. I just want to spend a few moments this afternoon making some

observations on the reason that New Westminster and the surrounding

areas very strongly support the continuation of that service within the

city. I don't want to belabour the point, because the minister has

received a considerable amount of correspondence from the city of New

Westminster; surrounding municipalities, including the district of

Surrey; the cities of Langley, Port Moody and Port Coquitlam; the

district of Abbotsford; the city of Maple Ridge, the Chairman's home

city; and the Dewdney-Alouette Regional District. He has also received

communications from the chamber of commerce, the Downtown Business

Improvement Association, the legal profession, the New Westminster bar

and the land title search companies. The list is quite extensive.

[3:30]

The

reason those people are writing is that, for them, not only is this

office a place of historic significance but it also has a very

practical economic significance. I've done some work on the number of

jobs that are directly related to the location of the land title office

in New Westminster. I think a reasonable estimate is that pretty close

to 300 jobs are directly associated with that office. There are almost

100 jobs in the land title office itself, The title search companies

clustered around the current location of the land title office at 625

Agnes Street, adjacent to our beautiful courthouse, employ pretty close

to 100 people as well. In one or two cases they are head offices for

larger services that also have Vancouver operations which would

presumably move to New Westminster. In one case I know of they actually

operate also in the Victoria land title district.

The New Westminster bar association, representing 70 members — I have no idea, actually, of the total number — have

given their unequivocal support to the land titles office continuing in

New Westminster, because much of their business has a real estate

component; they are dealing with land matters.

If we look

at those positions that are directly related to the land titles office,

200-plus have a direct association with that office and its presence in

New Westminster. I would note too that these are good jobs. Women are

employed in significant numbers. Women in the land titles office, and

also in the title search companies, have been trained on the job and

have moved up the ladder in respect to the positions they are able to

occupy.

It is a very sophisticated operation. British

Columbia leads the way in much of the land titles procedures that are a

part of our history. The office in New Westminster has been leading the

way technologically as well.

[ Page 10702 ]

addition, this office is located in the downtown area, an area

presently undergoing a very significant change both as a result of the

development of new housing along our waterfront and work that the

business community is doing in the old Golden Mile and west along

Columbia Street. There is a very significant business community that

serves these people.

The Attorney has probably received all

of that information very thoroughly. The letters I have received have

outlined this information in various ways, shapes and forms. But there

is an unequivocal expectation that New Westminster will continue to

have that county–Fraser Valley function with the land titles office.

has been some time since the community became aware of the fact that

the changes in land titles office operations were going to occur within

the next short while. I think all of us can recognize the anxiety of

people whose jobs and businesses depend on the location of that office.

There is no question that the people in the land titles office — many of whom have worked there for ten, 20 or 25 years — are

eagerly awaiting an announcement which would ensure that the land

titles office is going to continue to be an important service and an

important part of the economy of New Westminster.

[Mr. De Jong in the chair.]

would like to give the Attorney-General, during his estimates, an

opportunity to comment. I believe there is merit in a policy decision

being taken that gives New Westminster favoured status in respect to

the relocation. My research indicates that the space required is

available and economical. We know that New Westminster is strategically

located. We know, too, that the historic tradition of legal,

administrative, financial and land titles services goes back a very

long time — 130 years.

I was at the cessation of the County Court ceremonies at New Westminster last Friday — some

very impressive ceremonies, actually, with the ten judges of the New

Westminster court joining the Supreme Court. One of the people who

spoke at that session was, if I may use the term, young Sandy

McQuarrie, who is president of the bar association in New Westminster

and whose father and grandfather have served in that community. One of

the comments made over and over again in the reminiscing about the

history of this court was the very special relationship the court has

held with the city of New Westminster. I believe the same perspective

is there in respect to our land titles office.

I would hope that the Attorney-General might be prepared in his comments to

acknowledge the overwhelming case, if you like, in support of the land titles

office — newer, larger and technologically more sophisticated — to be continued

in New Westminster I know it is the wish of this government that it continue

to fill a very important role as a showcase office.

believe there are some opportunities for the technology and the

methodology of our land title operation to provide guidance to other

jurisdictions, and I think that that initiative is to be supported and

commended. I know that all of those many people who have advised the

Attorney-General of their views and of their support for the land

titles office in New Westminster are eagerly awaiting a decision. That

decision has to come soon. I know the Attorney-General has the

information in his industry at this time, and I am hopeful that that

decision is going to be announced very soon.

I would invite

the Attorney-General to comment on this issue for the people of my

riding and, I might note, for many other ridings in the eastern suburbs.

HON. MR. SMITH : Mr. Chairman, it's interesting that the second member for Central Fraser Valley (Mr. De Jong) is now in the chair, because — you're right — a

number of people from the ridings are interested in our lobbying for

the privilege of housing the land title office. I've even had

recommendations from Central Fraser Valley suggesting that as the

growth is moving more in that direction, that would be the appropriate

location.

Obviously I would not have as good an

understanding as the member does of New Westminster, its potential, its

location and the tremendous things that have been done in New

Westminster as a result of decisions taken by the government of British

Columbia since 1976.

The reason I have that firsthand

knowledge is because I had the privilege to serve on the board of the

British Columbia Development Corporation and therefore by osmosis,

among other things, on the board of the First Capital City Development

Co. as well. There has been a good amount of resources directed to the

city of New Westminster to redevelop what was a city in decline in

terms of its downtown core. We have been extremely successful in doing

that.

Not coincidentally, the development of the SkyTrain

system has been an extraordinary boon to the city of New Westminster

and indeed augments its position as the geographical centre — the physical centre — of the lower mainland and roughly the centre of the various transportation axes in the lower mainland.

has historically been the place of various government services starting

from the days when it was the capital of British Columbia. I daresay

that, from a population point of view at least, it was a very

convenient capital for most British Columbians. Some in New Westminster

would argue that it still is. I suspect they would get a good deal of

support from people not only in New Westminster.

The county

courts that you referred to also were an important part of New

Westminster. I had the county seat, and last week I had the privilege

of attending a number of ceremonies to commemorate the role played by

the county court as we followed along the decision that I took to merge

the courts. On July 1 it was done.

[ Page

10703 ]

The idea of a county court system has been with our jurisprudential

system since sometime in the mid-1300s. In the middle part of the 1800s

it began here in the province of British Columbia. When the colonies

were joined, it too was joined.

The county court system has

served us well, and I expect that administratively the locations of the

county court now will be drawn into the Supreme Court administrative

structure. I think that all the benefits the county court provided us

will still remain — even beyond merger.

In addition to

that, there will be the advantage of the extension of jurisdiction into

the domain of county courts which isn't there at present. While we were

commemorating the end of the sittings of the county court in Victoria,

New Westminster, Kamloops, Prince George and other places around the

province, I don't think it is the end of the virtue of the county court

system by any stretch of the imagination. It is part of the reform

package I have undertaken.

There have been extensive

reforms taken with respect to the land title system. One of them was

the issue of moving the land title system to a fully electronic

capacity which will be a signature-ready system in about 24 to 36

months from now. In fact, it will be completely electronic. And as we

move to that, the need for physical locations diminishes. In fact, from

a technological point of view, you could have one land title system

office in Nelson, Kamloops or Prince Rupert, or New Westminster for

that matter, to serve the entire province today, because electronically

the system is capable of handling that. Historically those offices have

been located so as to provide a place for people to go and get original

documents, and that will continue. Even though the electronic capacity

is there, there will not be that overwhelming centralization, with the

exception of the lower mainland, where, more than a year ago now, I

announced that we would be consolidating those offices — and we are.

We've had a number of people and organizations and locations competing

for that. It's a provincial decision. Obviously there are two locations

in the lower mainland within less than 30 miles of one another, and the

next one is almost 300 miles away. The needs can be served with a

consolidation of those facilities.

[3:45]

we have looked at how and where that can best be done, taking into

account transportation needs public transit and centrality to the

largest geographical mass we can find. We took into account the cost of

space. That's very important to taxpayers and to all of us. We've taken

into account the needs of the offices themselves and the personnel in

them. Of course, part of it was spawned as well by the fact that we are

making renovations to Robson Square in Vancouver. We're moving

everybody out of Robson Square, starting with the cabinet — and we've moved along on that.

So we put out proposal calls to the public to come forward with suggestions

of where this facility could or should be located, taking into account the criteria

set out. We've had proposals from Surrey, Vancouver, New Westminster and

locations east of Surrey, and we've had significant proposals from Burnaby.

We have evaluated the proposals very carefully and have had the Buildings Corporation,

which searches for our space, deal with them. I believe we had received six

originally. Three of the six had difficulty with suitability — that is, the time-frame

in which we wanted to have this up and running. We want it open by November

of this year. And, of course, we had a whole host of proposals that didn't

get themselves canned down into something specific and in writing.

have now approved the location for the amalgamation of the land title

system, which will be in a building almost immediately contiguous with

and adjacent to the present land title office in the city of New

Westminster. It will now require us to work with the staff and others

to make certain that the transition is as comfortable for them as

possible and that all the users and others can make the transition

smoothly as well.

So that, Mr. Chairman, is the resolution

of that issue. I want to thank all the members who have given me advice

on that, and members of the public and mayors, especially the members

from the lower mainland and the member for New Westminster (Ms. A.

Hagen), who spent some time with me in my office discussing the issue.

I've had representations from virtually everyone you can imagine on the

issue. But I think the decision is a proper one from the point of view

of the land title system and of the provincial decision, which I must

take in spite of whatever local considerations there may be. I know

that in terms of cost-effectiveness, to the extent that it is the major

criteria, it is clearly the best decision. Also, and I presume happily

from the member's point of view, it will continue the historic role

that New Westminster has played.

MS. A. HAGEN : The

minister is not noted for short answers, Mr. Chairman, but I must say

I'm very pleased with his answer. I have just one other question.

There's

no doubt that the people in my riding are waiting with bated breath for

an announcement, and I'd just like to ask the Attorney-General whether

this is the first indication he has made of his decision that the land

titles office will be located in New Westminster, and if that is the

case, when he intends to make that public, since it is indeed his

decision, and I would respect his right to make the announcement. If he

could just advise me of that I'd appreciate it.

HON. MR. SMITH :

The staff involved, particularly in Vancouver, have been advised of the

decision. I guess the answer to when it's public is that it's public

now.

MR. SIHOTA : I'll return to where we left off

yesterday and just make a quick comment with respect to legal aid. I

pointed out a number of areas where the minister's reply yesterday did

not deal with the concerns that I had. Those were my conclud-

[ Page 10704 ]

ing comments yesterday, and I want to pick up from there.

was interesting to read the minister's response this morning and

compare it with the response that he made last year. It was almost

identical in terms of what he had to say, and one was left with the

impression that not much progress has been made over the course of the

last year with respect to the provision of legal aid. I find that

unfortunate.

I was looking at the Hughes report later

yesterday and note.... I'll just quote the commission: "The

recommendations of the 1984 B.C. Task Force on Public Legal Services

urgently require implementation.... The comments were almost unanimous

in calling for immediate fulfilment of the recommendations of the 1984

Task Force on Public Legal Services." So we have this task force that

went around in 1984 and we had another task force that went around in

1989, both of them asking for proper funding for legal aid, and it's

clear that the government has not moved on it. Yet last year the

minister said in the House: "I want to make it clear that I understand,

perhaps as well as anyone in this House, that legal aid is a question

of fundamental access to our justice system."

To be direct

about it, the minister should put his money where his mouth is. We

haven't seen the allocation of funds in the areas that are still

wanting. There's no doubt that in terms of flexibility, the eligibility

requirements have been attended to, and there is a greater level of

flexibility than there was before. But with respect to the priority of

coverage and broadening the amount of coverage for legal aid, that

hasn't occurred anywhere near to the level anticipated.

Having dealt with legal aid — of course, if the minister wants to respond he can — I

want to turn to another issue: sexual assault. It's an issue I raise

every year during the debate on justice matters. It's an issue that I'm

going to raise again this year because of my frustration with the

inability of this provincial administration to attend adequately to the

needs of victims of sexual assault, be they children — know there already has been some discussion in this House about children prior to my entry in this debate — or be it others; I know there hasn't been too much discussion around that aspect of it.

This government has to understand that, at least in my view, there is no other crime as hideous....

Mr. Chairman, if the Attorney-General wants to leave during the time that we

have this discussion on sexual assault, then I don't really see it as my

role to talk to him about it in depth while he's away. I want him to be

here in the House and listening to the debate. We've gone through this before.

When I stand to speak on justice matters, the minister somehow thinks it is

his right to vacate the House and not listen to what we've got to say. In

the past we got into a rather protracted dispute when he decided he was just

going to turn his chair and talk to other ministers and not listen, and I guess

today he's decided to go one step further and leave the House.

The

minister should understand that the comments I'm going to be making

with respect to sexual assault will be mailed to every sexual assault

centre in British Columbia, as I have done in the past, so that those

involved in providing counselling and assistance to victims of sexual

assault have a full rendering of the debate.

I think they

would be disappointed to see that the minister had left the House, and

I would suspect, as I see now, that on that note he would make his way

back in. Now if I may continue.

Interjection.

MR. SIHOTA : I don't agree, Mr. Minister, if you just think it's the usual.... I'm a "usual bum." Is that what you said?

HON. MR. PARKER : Your usual bumph.

MR. SIHOTA :

Mr. Chairman, let me just put on the record that the member for Skeena,

the Minister for Crown Lands, thinks the comments I have to make about

sexual assault are "your usual bumph." Well, I must confess that I am

somewhat offended but not surprised that that minister would try to

belittle the subject with that type of comment. It only reminds one of

the kind of debate we had on sexual assault in this House about two

years ago, when I was speaking on the same topic and members of the

Social Credit Party opposite, in a very lewd way, started saying: "Give

us more details." We got that kind of comment two years ago and I can't

remember what happened last year, but this year we get the member for

Skeena.... I'll talk about his area and I'll talk specifically about

what's happening in Terrace with respect to sexual assault in a few

minutes. I don't consider this kind of discussion to be bumph, and I

think those who read Hansard

when it's mailed out to them won't consider it that way. I would, of

course, expect the Attorney-General to distance himself from the

comments made by the Social Credit member from Skeena riding.

I was saying, there is no crime that leaves the type of psychological

scar on an individual that an offence such as sexual assault does, be

it committed upon a woman or a child. It is a very traumatic experience

for individuals, of course, to be involved in this type of an incident.

It's

one thing to prosecute the case and to take it to court and convict

someone of the wrong. I don't want to really comment on that aspect of

it, except to say that it's one thing to provide the individual who has

been assaulted with assistance in dealing with the court process — which,

quite admittedly, is a process which people aren't used to; they don't

understand how the courts work, and when they have been the victim of a

crime such as this, they obviously deserve to have assistance to the

courts. But once the court case is left and done with, there is still

the psychological scar, the trauma in the life experience of that

person, and the fact that they have to be able to deal with life after

the trial, life after the event, life

[ Page

10705 ]

afterwards to deal with the psychological scarring from the incident.

There is no doubt that in the past few years, in British Columbia in particular — and one only has to daily pick up a newspaper to see this — there

has been a remarkable increase in the number of sexual assault offences

and a remarkable increase in the number of complaints laid and

convictions in the area. It's welcome that people feel now more able

and, if I can put it this way, comfortable to come in and report the

crime. I think it is appropriate that the matter be dealt with by the

courts and that punishments be stiff and relevant. However, we are

seeing a significant increase in this crime. There is a need,

therefore, for ongoing counselling services as an inherent part of the

treatment for survivors of sexual assault. That's where this government

has been failing and that's where the provincial Ministry of the

Attorney-General, in concert with other industries , should be

providing more money to assist.

[4:00]

I was surprised when I went and visited a number of the sexual assault centres in British Columbia some months ago now — I

think it was about eight or nine months ago — to see just how

inadequate the resources are and how similar the stories are. In every

centre there is a concern about the inadequacy of core funding. Core

funding, of course, is that portion of funding that pays for staff and

allows for an increase of staff. There is very little in terms of core

funding, and, quite frankly, the people who are engaged full-time at

these centres spend up to 50 percent of their time in fund-raising

activities to raise more money for the sexual assault centre. Usually

the staff of these centres consists of one or two people.

In addition to that — and what causes me a greater level of discomfort — is

the fact that the term of the counselling available to the victim of

sexual assault is limited either to assistance for the litigation

process — that is, the proving of the offence in court and assisting the witness to deal with the court process — or

to some six or eight weeks' worth of counselling Of course, there is

some provision, and I will grant the ministry this, for short-term

counselling. But when you talk to centre after centre in British

Columbia, you find there is very little funding, if any, for

intermediate or long-term counselling. There are very few spaces in

communities for people to find refuge or shelter.

recently dealt with a constituent who was assaulted in Sooke. The

constituent involved has said that it's fine for me to share this

story. Sooke, like many rural communities in British Columbia, has no

such facilities. After being assaulted at home at 2 o'clock in the

afternoon, the woman had to go to the bus-stop in downtown Sooke to

come to Victoria for some counselling and to find out what she could do

after the assault. She had to take her two kids with her.

When you think about it, it's terrifying to be a victim of a sexual assault.

But as you are dealing internally with that, to be standing at a bus-stop for

45 minutes waiting for a bus to come; then to spend two hours travelling with

your kids into downtown Victoria; to contain within yourself all of the emotion

that must flow from that kind of incident; to end up at a service that is supposed

to be there and then to find that there is a waiting-list of six or eight weeks

for ongoing group or individual counselling is just a slap in the face to the

victim. That's the reality of what people have to face.

When

I visited these centres, I found that there is a greater concern and a

greater inadequacy of services in rural centres throughout British

Columbia. Often women can't get into a centre or don't live in a

community that provides this type of service. Women in particular often

find it difficult to travel to these areas.

I want to quote

some statistics to give an indication of the extent to which the

problem has manifested itself in this province. Here are some of the

statistics that were provided to me. In Victoria there is a 1, 300

percent increase in the need for service over the last eight years.

There has been a 56 percent increase in funding over that time.

In Vancouver in 1988-89 there were 5,577 total contacts compared to 4,614 — an increase of almost 1,000 contacts in the last year alone with respect to sexual assaults.

In Fort St. John between April 1, 1988 and March 31, 1989, 150 new clients were seen in that small community alone. In Terrace — the minister from that community who is now leaving might want to know; I see he's leaving appropriately at this time — the

total clients in 1989 registered 631. In May there were 82 telephone

calls and 42 in April of this year. In Cowichan, 583 initial contacts

were recorded so far this year.

Mr. Speaker, as you can

see, there is an enormous problem. When you get contacts of that

magnitude in communities as small as Fort St. John and Terrace or even

in the Duncan area, you can see we have a major problem on our hands in

this society. On the other hand, there has been very little done by

this administration to provide financial assistance to victims of

sexual assault or to provide them with the individual and group

counselling that's required.

I make this plea every year to the minister in terms of more money. I must say that after three years of doing this....

MR. CHAIRMAN : I'm sorry, hon. member, your time has expired.

MS. MARZARI : Mr. Chairman, I'd like to hear the remainder of the address on sexual assault centres by my colleague from Esquimalt.

MR. CHAIRMAN :

Before I recognize the member for Port Renfrew-Esquimalt, I would just

remind him that even though it's a very sensitive issue under debate at

the present time, when we're in committee the Chairman is traditionally

addressed as Mr. Chairman rather than Mr. Speaker. Please proceed, hon.

member.

[ Page 10706 ]

MR. SIHOTA :

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to thank the member for Vancouver-Point Grey,

who I know is deeply concerned about this issue, and express my

gratitude to her for giving me some more time to talk about it.

Let

me also say that every year I make this request of the

Attorney-General, in terms of the need to provide more funding and more

assistance, I find it disturbing that the government has allocated

inadequate resources to assist victims of sexual assault. As I say, I

don't understand why that is the approach of this administration, and

why this administration cannot deal more sensitively or appropriately

with respect to funding for sexual assault centres. I'm at a loss to

explain. I can point to all sorts of other examples where we have

raised issues year after year in this House and have seen some

movement, but this is not one of them.

We have areas of

this province.... I see my colleague the member for Kootenay (Ms.

Edwards) here in the House, and she knows full well that there has been

inadequate attention paid to this issue in that community. We canvassed

that last year in the minister's estimates. Again I see that there have

been no substantial, significant changes.

I'm wondering

what it takes for this administration to become sensitive to those

concerns, show some compassion for the victims and attend to their

needs. I'm troubled — I guess that's perhaps the best word — by the actions of this administration.

I'm

also troubled by the way in which the Attorney-General has handled this

issue, and I want to comment on that further. I'm making reference to

last year's estimates. The minister knows that last year I raised the

inadequacy of these services in the Kootenays and — as I intend to do again this year — mailed out the Hansard

exchange between the minister and me on this issue to all the sexual

assault centres and groups involved in the field. Of course, the

minister last year during the debate on this very issue tried to

suggest that the government was attending to the matter. He tried to

suggest — as I'm sure he will again this year — that there was significant progress being made by the current administration with respect to this matter.

I think what troubled me in what he said last year — and what will trouble me in what he's going to say again this year in terms of the progress being made — is that much of it is just political rhetoric as opposed to concrete action.

Let

me just revisit what we discussed last year. We discussed the need for

the provision of this type of service in all areas of British Columbia — particularly in rural communities — for the reasons I've already outlined. The minister suggested that was happening I actually have the quote from last year in Hansard .

If the minister wants reference to it, it's around page 6,513, on May

2, 1989. He went out of his way to admonish me and say to me: "Well,

look, we're making all sorts of progress. We're providing services.

You've got your facts wrong."

I just want to read this letter into the record, and I have consent to read

this. It comes from the Communities Against Sexual Abuse in Invermere. I'm

sorry to see that the member for Columbia River (Mr. Crandall), in whose riding

this falls, is not here to speak to this matter. Seona Helmer, who's the

chairperson and the volunteer coordinator of rights, says:

am writing to you on the advice of Cathy Green, the coordinator of the

victim support services in Golden. She brought to my attention a letter

that you had sent to her that asked for her input into additional

funding that was to be provided for sexual assault services in British

Columbia, as had been indicated by the Attorney-General's Access to

justice report. The letter I'm referring to is somewhat dated — May 15, 1989 — but I would like to comment to you about the debate between you and" — then it mentions the name of the Attorney-General.

"You asked" — and again it mentions the Attorney-General by name — "the

following question: 'First of all, I want to know why this ministry is

not prepared to provide these services in the Kootenays — sexual

assault services. Could the minister please explain?' In his response,

the minister stated: 'Some of these services which the member was

concerned don't exist and which, in fact, do exist are provided in

Cranbrook through the victim-witness service agency in that community;

likewise in Invermere through Communities Against Sexual Abuse, which

is funded as well'."

Of course, the point the minister was

trying to make for his political purposes.... He was trying to say:

"Look, the member for Esquimalt-Port Renfrew is wrong. We provide these

services on a broad basis right across the province." You don't. I told

you that this year. You still don't do it now, and that's clear. But

just to deal with what happens when you make those statements in the

House and the reaction that that invites by those people who provide

the services, let me continue to quote from this letter. It says:

"I would like to clarify the fact that although the A-G office did provide some funding for our organization — $5,000 in 1988 and $2,500 in 1989 — it

cannot be fairly said that these services are covered by us in this

area. We have no paid person and have never had a paid person. We are

completely volunteer. I was disheartened when I read Mr. Smith's

comment, as it indicated to me that he considered our area 'taken care

of' when, in fact, he cannot by any stretch, with our present financial

situation, make that claim.

"I sent a letter

on February 28, 1990, to the A-G office requesting funds for a

half-time person and an office for a period of two years. After that,

we feel we'll have the credibility and stability to look into other

sources of funding.

"I should also add that

at the present time we have no office, as we had to close it down due

to a lack of funds. We do, however, provide what services we can

through a network of answering-machines and volunteers — hardly an

ideal situation in crisis. You can understand, then, my concern when it

is assumed our organization, as it stands now, provides adequate

services.

"Thank you for your attention. Should you need to contact me further, please do."

That's

an indication of the frustration that comes when ministers in this

House, particularly the Attorney-General in debate around sexual

assault, obviously don't understand the fact that there's an inade-

[ Page

10707 ]

quacy with respect to the services provided by this

administration. They are unwilling to admit that there is that

inadequacy and, for reasons of political rhetoric more than anything

else, try to create the impression that services are provided.

Obviously it offends people in communities that are required to provide

the services and don't have the means with which to provide these

much-needed services throughout British Columbia.

Therefore

I'm wondering if the Attorney-General could, in light of my general

comments about sexual assault, advise the House what additional funding

has been provided, to what amount in this year's budget, and for what

areas in this province, with respect to the kind of service I talked

about: namely, counselling for victims of sexual assault and victim

assistance around sexual assault matters.

[4:15]

HON. MR. SMITH :

Mr. Chairman, as I said last year and I will again this year, there is

a great need for resources in this whole area. Whatever are the

improvements, they will not for some good time be adequate.

It's

not a partisan matter, because between 1972 and '75, frankly, there

were no victim services in the province of British Columbia — zip.

The

issue is that over the last number of years we have had a considerable

increase in prosecution. We've had a societal change in the number of

people who are prepared to come forward. We've had, in fact, a

reasonably good record of drawing out people who have been abused and

who are prepared to take the steps necessary to bring those who abuse

them to justice. We have put a lot of effort and a lot of resources

into that, and the first member for Vancouver-Point Grey (Ms. Marzari)

quite sensitively, I thought, raised that issue earlier this afternoon.

terms of the kind of counselling service that the member has raised,

there are a number of agencies that deal with the issue. Unfortunately,

he didn't raise it in the estimates of Social Services and Housing,

because they have a significant role in this whole area.

Since

1987, including this year, we have added 93 communities in the province

of British Columbia where we provide, through the Ministry of

Attorney-General support for victim services. But that doesn't include

all the services provided by various levels of government. In

particular, the Health ministry — mental health — is taking the lead

in an interministerial way involving the Social Services ministry, the

Native Affairs ministry, the Attorney-General and the

Solicitor-General. They are taking the lead in developing programs for

intermediate and long-term counselling, where there is a tremendous and

growing need. I think that's an important step. It draws together the

resources in a coordinated fashion, and attempts to make those

resources more available, and more sensibly available, around the

province.

In addition to that, the Criminal Injury Compensation Act, for which there

has been considerable increase in resources and will be again this year in terms

of limits.... That's the purview of the Solicitor-General (Hon. Mr. Fraser).

But I can tell the House, so people aren't misled that there isn't anything

going on from that source, that they are providing considerably more money for

counselling as well, and are doing it for victims throughout the province of

British Columbia.

The

matter is one that is growing and will require more resources. I have

absolutely no doubt that whatever the resources are this year, there

will be an increased need for them next year and likewise the year

after that, and beyond. We will have to do the best we can to find

those resources, and we will.

More important than that, we

have to coordinate the various ministries of government to make certain

that we bring the resources to bear in the best way we can. As well, we

have to deal with not only the victims but also the abusers, and

provide resources there, because it's clear that those people are not

being adequately rehabilitated. And when the expiration of their term

occurs, as the first member for Point Grey and I discussed earlier on

this afternoon in these estimates, they will be back on the streets.

is a nasty problem in our society. It is not one that is new; it's one

that has been with us forever. What is new, and increasingly so, is

that people are coming forward with these complaints, and the resources

have been put together to investigate and prosecute those complaints

and bring people to justice. As that happens more and more, it's our

experience — and that's why you see more and more of it in the paper, quite frankly — that

it gives confidence to other people to come forward and issue their

complaints and ask that the victimization they have gone through be

addressed through the criminal prosecution system. And we do do that,

and of course it requires counselling services that, as I say, the

Ministry of Health is taking the lead on. I'm sure the Minister of

Health (Hon. J. Jansen) would be happy to answer those issues for the

victims. Increasingly we're going to have to have more and better

coordinated efforts directed to the abusers as well.

MR. SIHOTA :

Mr. Chairman, the minister sounds like a broken record. He talks about

the need for more services and more interagency activities, and all

that kind of stuff. I want to quote from what he said last year. I'll

just pick one paragraph, in terms of the debate that we were involved

in last year. He said: "There's no question that the need is growing

for these community-based specialized support programs that work with

abused victims. I have no doubt that there will be a need for more

interagency support as time goes by. I have no doubt that there is a

need for more money." He said that last year; he's saying that again

this year. What I want to know is: what progress has your ministry made

in this area? What new money are you putting in and where are you

putting it this year as compared to last year? That was a question, Mr.

Minister.

HON. MR. SMITH : The member has asked what resources are going out for the very important need

[ Page 10708 ]

counselling. I've said that that area is being led by the Ministry of

Health on an interdepartmental basis, drawing together, through the

social policy net of cabinet, the various agencies of government. There

are considerably more resources going into it, and when the Minister of

Health's estimates are up, I'm sure he'll be delighted to answer your

questions.

[Mr. Pelton in the chair.]

MR. SIHOTA : I want to know from the minister, in terms of his ministry's responsibilities — he knows and I know that they have a significant responsibility in this area — what the increase is in your budget this year, and where that money is going.

HON. MR. SMITH :

The responsibility began with the Ministry of the Attorney-General,

because it initiated a number of the victims' programs. As that issue

develops and, as the member for Vancouver Point Grey quite properly

pointed out today, as the need arises for better and more coordinated

use of the resources and services we have, those programs are in the

long term being taken over by the Ministry of Health. Further to that,

the Ministry of Health has been mandated to take the lead in this issue

of that counselling service. Consequently the increases in budget for

these services will show up in the Health ministry more than in other

ministries.

MR. SIHOTA : Mr. Chairman, I can see that

the minister might be embarrassed to say how little money his ministry

is putting into it, but we'd still like to know what pittance his

ministry is putting into it. Last year shortly after estimates the

minister issued a list, and it said that the Cowichan women's sexual

assault centre was getting $34,675. I want to know: are they getting

more or are they getting less? If they are getting more, how much more?

Last year you said the Women's Sexual Assault Centre in Victoria was

getting $64,890. Is it getting more this year or is it getting less?

You've got your budget figures there, and you've got two staff there.

You can damn well answer the question. Vancouver Women Against Violence

Against Women, $92,468 last year — are they getting more this year or

are they getting less? Kamloops Sexual Assault Counselling Centre. I

know that you went out of your way last year to put out a beautiful

press release — because it is in your riding — talking about how

concerned you were. Last year you gave them $39,305. What are you

giving them this year? The K'San House Society in Terrace; last year

they got $34,879. What are they getting this year? The North Peace

Community Resources Society got $42,449 last year. What is the amount

this year?

What is the overall increase in your budget, if any, this year? And what other

new areas have you identified in your ministry for which you think there should

be more funding? Don't tell me to go to the Ministry of Health. We'll

deal with those estimates when they come. I want to know what your ministry

says, Mr. Minister.

HON. MR. SMITH :

Mr. Speaker, the member says: "Don't tell me to go to the Ministry of

Health." I can assure him I will tell him whatever I please. It's one

of the benefits of a system that encourages free speech.

The

Ministry of Health has taken the lead in these counselling services and

is indeed being encouraged to coordinate them. The counselling aspect

of it is logically and, I guess, medically as well, more appropriately

a health matter than one for the justice system, particularly the

criminal justice system. As a consequence of that, the Ministry of

Health is taking the lead in the areas of counselling that the member

is referring to. As I have tried to point out to him, this is also the

case with their increase in resources in the Criminal Injury

Compensation Act, which is part of the Solicitor-General's ministry,

and there have been significant amounts and increases through the

Ministry of Social Services and Housing.

I was here for

most of the debate on the Social Services and Housing Ministry, and I

am sorry to note that the member declined to ask any questions relative

to that in those particular estimates. The minister was more than

prepared to respond with details about it, so we will listen to the

questions. But those are the answers, and they will remain the answers.

MR. SIHOTA :

Mr. Chairman, is this minister so inept that he doesn't know how much

money is being put from his ministry into these kinds of programs?

We'll find out what Social Services and Housing has done; we'll find

out what Health has done when we get to their estimates. But is he that

inept that he doesn't know how much money his ministry is putting into

these matters? Or is he embarrassed to admit it? Or does he think that

he's playing some kind of political game by not disclosing it and that

somehow it's macho for him not to share the numbers with us?

Come on, Mr. Minister. You know what your budget is. You have an obligation — and you always say you understand the democratic process — to tell us what it is. Now tell us, and if it causes you embarrassment, so be it.

Let

me also say this: There is no doubt in my mind that this government is

anti-women. We've seen a particular posture from the Premier of this

province on down through various cabinet ministers. There's no doubt

about that in my mind. If it had a greater level of respect for the

victims of sexual assault, this government would be trumpeting with

pride the increases in budget for victims of sexual assault. It would

be putting them on TV every night in those news updates we see on

television. But it would rather spend $11 million on nightly television

advertising than put some money into this kind of a program.

[4:30]

Shame

on the government, and shame on the minister who's not prepared to

state what his ministry is doing in this regard. He'll get another

opportunity, but I know that my colleague from Vancouver-

[ Page

10709 ]

Point Grey also wants to speak on this issue and

wants to comment on some of the debate that occurred in the Social

Services and Housing estimates and on some of the information she has.

While

the minister reflects on all of this and consults with his staff,

perhaps we'll give the member from Vancouver-Point Grey an opportunity

to address the issue as well.

HON. MR. SMITH :

There's no need for me to reflect on anything that has been said by the

member for Esquimalt-Port Renfrew, either today or since he came to

this House.

The member asked me questions relating to

counselling service, and I have attempted to answer those for him so

that it would be done in an understandable way. For whatever reason, he

chooses not to understand the answers that have been given to him on

the change in the way that we deliver services. The change is reflected

in the fact that, as the member for Vancouver-Point Grey correctly

pointed out earlier, we should try to bring more coordination to the

delivery of these services. That's precisely what is taking place, and

the Ministry of Health is taking the lead in providing that. So that is

the answer.

I must say that the member said parenthetically

that this government was anti-something or other, and I'm not going to

descend into debate with him on that particular issue, because it's

demonstrably incorrect. But I do think it's important to point out that

in this year there have been a couple of derisive sexist remarks thrust

across this chamber. One of them was directed at the Minister of

Transportation and Highways (Hon. Mrs. Johnston), and it came from the

second member for Victoria (Mr. Blencoe). The other one was a derisive

statement directed to the Minister Responsible for Government

Management Services (Hon. Mrs. Gran) when the member for Esquimalt

referred to it derisively and sarcastically as women's affairs. I think

that kind of attitude is one that could well be changed. I think we

should have a more enlightened one both in this chamber and beyond,

because I think those kinds of comments do indeed reflect pretty

accurately the values and attitudes of people towards a number of these

issues, much more so than any pompous words or contrived anger or

whatever else they might attempt to place on the record.

terms of the intermediate and long-term counselling service that that

member referred to, Mr Chairman, the Health ministry is taking an

important lead and drawing together the various ministries of

government. I think that's the appropriate thing to do and one that

will better serve the victims. I know the member for Point Grey has

some questions, so I'll be happy to take them.

MS. MARZARI :

Before I begin my comments, Mr Chair, I must say that the most sexist

comments that have been made in this House have been made by the

Attorney-General himself. They ring in my mind as I think about them. I

commented on them in the House yesterday, and I will repeat them for

the record today.

When the Minister Responsible for Women's

Programs (Hon. Mrs. Gran) was making her estimate speeches and we were

debating the issues back and forth across the House, the

Attorney-General insisted on jumping in time and again ostensibly to

protect the minister for women, who, in my opinion, did not need

protection. And at a certain point in the debate the Attorney-General,

in a moment of explosive emotion, suggested that the minister for women

was indeed a good minister because "she doesn't mind who takes the

credit." In other words, the minister for women is prepared to remain

silent and let her male colleagues take the credit. This was the

intent. This was the motive. This was the suggestion. In my mind, that

kind of patronizing, condescending, overly protective sexism...

Interjections.

MS. MARZARI : ...and the fact that this House doesn't recognize it as such — suggests

to me that what in fact we're dealing with here is a systemic

discrimination which people don't even recognize they're engaged in.

MR. CHAIRMAN :

Order, please. I must remind hon. members that the debate is straying

now from vote 12, which we've been dealing with. If we could stick to

vote 12, we'd have a much more productive afternoon.

MS. MARZARI :

I'd be pleased to return to vote 12, Mr. Chair, but I must say that it

sort of gives a context to the whole debate to understand sexism and

misogyny in the context of how we deal with women in our province, in

this House and in this parliament, and then to try to relate that to

the small budget dollars that are directed towards women as victims. It

does set a context, and it does constantly remind me of why I'm here

and why I am standing now to speak to this particular issue.

Two

issues. One is the amount of money into sexual assault centres. I have

never seen so much attention paid to such a paltry budget item as we

have here. Sexual assault centres receive a great deal of attention in

the media. They receive attention throughout the province. Women are

drawing attention to the fact that they are victims, that they are

assaulted, that they are raped in numbers we don't even want to

contemplate, in numbers we don't even have on record, because to have

them on record would be to suggest that rape is a mainstream activity

in our community. Child abuse and abuse of women is a mainstream

activity. Every time we open the paper we see another comment on

another small program, perhaps a program from the federal or provincial

levels of government, that tells us that another $3,000 has been

trickled into sexual assault, that another $12,000 is being provided

here, there and everywhere. Women are raped, women are assaulted....

My colleague from Esquimalt has talked about a woman in Sooke who was assaulted and forced to

[ Page 10710 ]

take a bus into town to receive counselling, with her two children in tow.

am reminded here of a news item of May 3, 1990: a sexual assault team

at University Hospital at the Shaughnessy site received $12,000 to do

some follow-up counselling for services to women who are raped and hurt

and victimized in the city of Vancouver. Says the coordinator: "Ideally

we would need funding of $50,000 and a full-time social worker to

properly handle the job." And what is the job? It's a job that's been

handled for years by volunteers — women who come to the hospital and

assist in the counselling of women who have been hurt, raped and

assaulted. Victims helping victims very often; unpaid volunteers

helping victims; women without pay helping women who have been hurt.

That seems to be the way we run our social services in this province,

and it's not good enough — $12,000 when $50,000 is absolutely the

bottom line; $3,000 for sexual assault centres that have caseloads of

over 150 telephone calls or contacts a month. It's not good enough.

What

can they do? All they can do is talk to the women about their next

step, whether charges will be pressed or a court case will ensue. But

where, I ask, is the substantial help? Where are the women able to turn

when the time comes to pursue a connected course of events that is

actually going to assist them over the long haul?

I'm

coming to my second point: the business of integrated services. Sexual

assault centres, which fall in between the moment of assault and the

helping network of services, ask: "Who's in charge?" Nobody is in

charge. The services are not integrated. No one is offering any

coordination on a long-term basis. The Attorney-General is suggesting

to us today that things are finally coalescing under the Health

ministry. But let me look at the news releases over the last few

months. June 25, 1990: "Community Program to Reduce Wife Abuse." That's

the Minister Responsible for Women's Programs. June 6: "Ministers

Announce New Transition Houses." Who is that under? Women's Programs

and Social Services. May 10: "Wife Assault Coordination Project

Announced." Who is announcing it? The Ministry of Attorney-General.

June 12: "Sex Abuse Interventions Project Targets Vulnerable Groups."

Here's the Ministry of Health: $3 million to an interministerial sexual

abuse interventions project.

Four separate ministries are involved here. And when we add to that the Ministry

of Education, where kids first disclose that they have been hurt, and when we

add to that the police department and Solicitor-General, where very often women

come first to lay a charge or complaint that they have been hurt, you have seven

or eight major ministries, each doing its own thing and none providing integrated

coordinated support to the front-line workers. Volunteers are sitting in sexual

assault centres, transition houses, schools and the Children's Hospital,

where the kids come in with their broken bones and mutilated faces. Nobody is

telling those front-line trench workers where to send the victims and what to

do next.

People are literally left in limbo, stranded between systems and ministries, not having a connected link.

Finally, if they are lucky enough to get through the courts and through some healing process, compensation — the money that should be paid — isn't necessarily there through the victims' fund, operated through the Workers' Compensation Board and through the courts.

have to say to the Attorney-General that I don't see evidence of

coordination here. I would like to hear you say: "I take

responsibility." Child abuse is the responsibility of Social Services.

Let's keep it there. Let's put them in charge. Let's say: "You are in

charge. You coordinate everything related to child abuse." When there's

a family in which the children are being hit and pushed around and the

wife is also being assaulted — an alcoholic husband — you obviously

have more than one ministry involved. But at least the children are

being taken care of by one ministry, with a worker who is an advocate

for those children.

Mr. Attorney-General, you take charge for wife assault, for sexual assault.

Say: "I'm in charge here. I'm going to coordinate this project.

I'm going to take on this program. This is my responsibility, and I am going

to set up the tone in the courts and make sure that the access is there. I'm

going to make sure that I am coordinating with the Solicitor-General, so that

when abused women recall that they were abused before 1972, I am going to make

sure that those women receive compensation too." Take charge, and then

integrate. The problem with coordination — the kind I see going on here — is that

everybody is running around trying to do something to grab a piece of the action

and get a little attention, but nobody's really taking charge.

[4:45]

The

abuse of elders. The Health ministry should be taking charge of the

overall treatment processes and the mental health healing that needs to

go on when a woman, a child or an elder has been hit and pushed around

to the point that they can't take it anymore. There is a point where

all ministries have to get together and decide that there's something

that needs to be done here. Maybe the Medical Services Plan should be

covering psychologists. Maybe the need is so great that that's where we

have to go to get our treatment, But the fact that nobody's taking

charge at this point means that you don't have a database, and you

don't have a logical connection between services. Everything remains

like a jigsaw puzzle thrown to the wind. Finally, there's no

compensation, no redress and, tragically, no justice for the victims.

I'm saying, Mr. Attorney-General: are you ready to take charge of this

section called sexual assault and do a decent job with it —

to go to the other ministries and say: "I am taking charge here, and

I'm pulling in all of you around areas of concern to women as victims"?

That's my question.

The second question: are you prepared

to live with the consequences of taking charge? That will mean, Mr.

Minister, a careful allocation of additional

[ Page

10711 ]

dollars on a planned basis to ensure that you are

reaching the women who are victims with the right kind of services at

the right time in their lives.

Are you prepared to do those two things?

HON. MR. SMITH :

One of the things I've learned to admire about the first member for

Vancouver-Point Grey is that she has a different but rather endearing

sense of humour. I say that in the context of what she said with

reference to my standing in the debate for the Ministry of Government

Management Services. She tried to leave the impression that somehow I

had stood in that debate in some condescending way to speak on behalf

of the minister. Obviously, of course, if people reflect on that

debate, a number of people were up and down in that debate.

The

minister did a great job of dealing with the opposition on every point

that they raised. The one thing that the member has said to me is that

she's not a braggart. She's right. The Minister of Government

Management Services (Hon. Mrs. Gran), unlike some members sitting

proximate to the member for Vancouver-Point Grey and somewhat behind

her, is not a braggart.

What I did in that discussion I

would be more than happy to do again, because I believe in it. I

believe absolutely in the notion that if you don't run around seeking

first to pat yourself on the back and puff your little body up and seek

credit for things, then you can accomplish virtually anything you set

out to do. The Minister of Government Management Services is a person

who doesn't run around giving herself credit. That's unfortunate,

because she does a tremendous job. In the discussion that day, she

declined the invitation from the opposition on several occasions to

give herself credit for a couple of matters that were under discussion.

So I thought that in the course of the discussions and questions I

wanted to ask, I would be quite willing and happy to give her and any

other minister the credit properly due to them. That does not disclose

any attitude on my part other than the recognition that some people — unlike, as I say, the member for Esquimalt-Port Renfrew (Mr. Sihota) — are not braggarts. It doesn't do any harm at all to give credit where it is due.

The

member has asked me a number of questions relating to wife assault

issues and victim assistance programs. I'll answer them as well as I'm

able.

First of all, you mentioned the question of the

amount of volunteer services provided. I don't, in any way, do other

than compliment and welcome and be grateful to each and every person

who provides volunteer services, whatever the issue and whatever the

agency, in the province of British Columbia. I think they do a

tremendous job. Not only is it good for the programs involved that

there is that concern from the community, but volunteer services and

programs help to sensitize the community to the issues and to broaden

the amount of resources and the number of people involved in these

issues in the community. I think it is something we should welcome and

not in any way deride either inferentially or otherwise.

can tell the member that in the province of British Columbia there are

in excess of 22,000 hours a year of volunteer services that we're aware

of. I think that's just outstanding. It's something we should all

appreciate. I know I do, and I believe the member for Vancouver-Point

Grey does as well.

The member asked me a question about the

coordinating of a number of these issues and how it was being done, I

can tell you that it is being coordinated by the Ministry of Health.

You

made a point of referring to some of the new money that Health has. I

can tell you that that coordinating effort is done at three basic

levels. One is the cabinet level, through the Cabinet Committee on

Social Policy; another is the deputies' level, in terms of developing

policy initiatives and in terms of administration; and the third is the

ADM level. In terms of the question you asked about the amount in the

budget for this year for victim services, we have had an increase of

$548,000 on a $1.3 million budget. That's for the 1990....

Interjection.

HON. MR. SMITH : No, that's the victim assistance programs you asked about.

terms of the wife assault question you alluded to, we have a number of

items underway there. The victim side of it and the counselling side of

it, as I said, are being dealt with through Health. But in terms of the

coordination program, if you're talking about the prosecution of it....

I talked to you earlier today about the way we have dealt with that in

terms of the policy change in the Crown office. We have also undertaken

a project to facilitate a system through education, through more

effective response to incidents, through better sensitivity of the

criminal justice system to the particular needs of those victims and

through the responsive Social Services nets that are there — plus some kind of coordination of longer term referral, if you like.

have done that ' in our ministry by undertaking projects in the areas

we had identified from our data where there seemed to be the greatest

need. We're doing that on a project basis, the evaluation from which

will allow us to then go into other areas. Those locations are

Vancouver, Courtenay, Nelson, Dawson Creek and Williams Lake. We

undertook that program earlier this year. In terms of the budget that

is proposed for that project for