Manitoba Hansard — 10 May 2011 (Sitting 43B, 39th Legislature, 5th Session)

39-5-43b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXIII No. 43B – 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 10, 2011 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Wellington N.D.P.

MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon.

Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WIEBE, Matt Concordia N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Inkster Vacant Lac du Bonnet

1759 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 10, 2011 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 37–The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Accident Reporting Requirements) Hon. Andrew Swan (Min ister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister responsible for Labour and Immigration, that Bill 37, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Accident Reporting Requirements); Loi modifiant le Code de la route (exigences en matière de rapports d'accident), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr.

Swan: This bill would result in motorists no longer being required to report collisions involving property damage only to the police. Manitoba drivers would only be required to report to police if the collision involves a fatality, serious injury, unlicensed drivers or vehicles, unidentified vehicles or the suspected use of drugs or alcohol. This change has been recommended by the Manitoba association of police chiefs to reduce time spent by police officers on routine accident reports. Reporting of damage claims would continue to be made to Manitoba Public Insurance.

I thank police for their advice and co-operation on this bill. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Mount Agassiz Ski Area Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition: For several decades, the Mount Agassiz ski area, home to the highest vertical between Thunder Bay and the Rocky Mountains, was a popular skiing and snowboarding destination for Manitobans and visitors alike.

The operations of Mount Agassiz ski area were very important to the local economy, not only creating jobs but also generating sales of goods and services at area businesses. In addition to–a thriving rural economy generates tax revenue th at helps pay for core provincial government services and infrastructure which benefits all Manitobans. Although the ski facility closed in 2000, there remains strong interest in seeing it reopened, and Parks Canada is committed to conducting a feasibility study with respect to the Agassiz site and future opportunities in the area.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the appropriate ministers of the provincial government to consider outlining to Parks Canada the importance that a viable recreation facility in the Mount Agassiz area would play in local and provincial economies. And to request that the appropriate ministers of the provincial government consider working with all stakeholders, including Parks Canada, to help develop a plan for a viable, multiseason recreation facility in the Mount Agassiz area. And this petition is signed by G. Bonin, D. Sawatsky, M.

Thibert and many, many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Auto Theft–Court Order Breaches Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: On December 11th of 2009, in Winnipeg, Zdzislaw Andrzejczak was killed when the car that he was driving collided with a stolen vehicle. The death of Mr.

Andrzejczak, a husband and a father, along with too many other deaths involving stolen vehicles, was a preventable tragedy.

1760 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 Many of those accused in fatalities involving stolen vehicles were previously known to police and identified as chronic and high-risk car thieves who had court orders against them. Chronic car thieves pose a risk to the safety of all Manitobans. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Justice to consider ensuring that all court orders for car thieves are vigorously monitored and enforced.

And to request the Minister of Justice to consider ensuring that all breaches of court orders on car thieves are reported to police and vigorously prosecuted. Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by M. Olah, S. Power, H. Wancsyk and thousands of other Manitobans. Convicted Auto Thieves–Denial of MPI Benefits Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The background to this petition is as follows: In Manitoba, a car thief convicted of stealing a vehicle involved in a car accident is eligible to receive compensation and assistance for personal injury from Manitoba Public Insurance. Too many Manitoba families have had their lives tragically altered by motor vehicle accidents involving car thieves and stolen vehicles. It is an injustice to victims, their families and law-abiding Manitobans that MPI premiums are used to benefit car thieves involved in those accidents.

We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Justice deny all MPI benefits to a person fo r injuries received in an accident if he or she is co nvicted of stealing a motor vehicle involved in the accident. And this petition is signed by C. Lucier, J. Lucier, R. Dirks and many, many more fine Manitobans. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flooding and Ice Jams Update Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Mr. Speaker, we're in the midst of an unprecedented natural disaster in our province's history.

Preliminary information indicates that this is a one-in-300-year flood in Brandon. We're calling upon every resource at our disposal, including the military, to push our diversion system and river dike capacity well beyond their design limits to help handle these record flows. However, the water flow is equivalent to half the flow of Niagara Falls flowing across the prairie. When faced with this challenge, the Province was faced with the difficult decision of risking a large uncontrolled breach or allowing a much smaller controlled release of water.

As we speak, hundreds of Canadian Forces personnel, provincial and municipal staff and volunteers are working to enhance the capacity of our river dikes and the diversion channel to minimize the amount of water in a controlled spill. However, there is still rain in the forecast that could add to the projected water levels and further challenge the system's ability to handle water. I want to state definitively two things: one, the residences, farms and communities that will be affected by the controlled re lease are also in the area at risk for an uncontrolled breach.

In that situation, this would potentially see upwards of five times as much water without any notice or control. The Province has requested the assistance of 300 additional Canadian Forces personnel who will be dedicated to helping protect properties in the controlled spill area; second, the people who will be affected by the controlled release are, without question, playing a key role in our fight to contain the unprecedented flows of the Assiniboine River. They are doing so by storing water on their lands on very little notice.

This is an extremely unique situation and the Province will be developing a special program to deal with impacts for families and producers similar to the model that was developed in 1997 to deal with that u nprecedented flood event on the Red River. Finally, I want to reiterate that protecting the safety of people and property is our paramount concern. The situation continues to evolve extremely quickly. We will continue to make every effort to achieve this objective, keep the House and all

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1761 Manitobans up to date on the latest information. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (13:40) Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the latest update to the House and also for a briefing we had earlier in the day. I would also like to extend thanks on behalf of our leader and caucus for the information provided to us on the latest flood developments.

As the minister has outlined, there's been a major development in flood fight as the Province prepares to undertake a controlled release from the Assiniboine dikes in order to prevent an uncontrolled breach. This is a substantial development that is going to have a significant impact on a number of Manitobans. Resources are being assembled to help protect homes and properties that could potentially be affected by flooding related to the release of this water.

This is occurring in a very short period of time, and we recognize the various levels of government, the Armed Forces, the volunt eers and those affected have much work to do in advance of the release. We appreciate their effort to minimize the impact of the event on persons and property. In addition to emerging situations, the flood fight continues in many regions of the province. As always, we are appreciative of the many, many individuals who are working so diligently to help others battle this spring's significant flood event. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I ask leave to sp eak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I want to begin by thanking all the officials and the volunteers and the many others who are working, often around the clock, to try and do the best they can to protect as many people as possible and as many homes as possible, as many businesses as possible under these very difficult circumstances.

I thank the minister for his statement and certainly recognize the severity of the conditions that we're facing out there with a one-in-300-year flood in Brandon with very difficult potential conditions between Portage and Winnipeg, with the very high levels to be coming on Lake Manitoba, with the extraordinary high levels in places like Lake St. Martin and the devastation that is happening in communities and people and the impact that this creates a really high level of tension and concern and anxiety. And, I thank minister and others for all they are doing for Manitobans, and we just hope and pray for the best.

Thank you. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Red River College Language Training Centre, we have 13 adult English as an Additional Language students under the direction of Ms. Flo Robinson, and this school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister for Labour and Immigration. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Assiniboine River Flooding Information for Residents Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to join other members in thanking Manitobans who are rising to the challenge of assisting their neighbours from various parts of the province in response to the very significant rising waters that we now see along the Assiniboine River. We had the chance this morning to see many of those people putting up sandbags around Headingley.

We know from the media reports about the great work being done throughout the province by volunteers, by officials and also by the Canadian Armed Forces who responded very, very rapidly–in less than 24 hours–to the request by the Premier for assistance here in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, there are th ousands of Manitobans from Brandon to Headingley and in communities north and south of the river who are very understandably worried and concerned about what is taking place. I wonder if the Premier can provide a clear indication to these residents as to what can be expected over the coming hours and days.

Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Yes, Mr. Speaker, there's at least 52,000 cubic feet per second coming to the Assiniboine River at the Portage Diversion, and that is an unprecedented amount of water ever

1762 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 seen in the history of Manitoba. This is a natural disaster that is equivalent to 1997 and even beyond that in terms of its impact in this specific area of Manitoba. So what we are seeing is extraordinary efforts to increase the capacity of the diversion to handle more water, the diking projects that were first identified to take the Assiniboine River downstream of the diversion to 1976 levels.

The $25 million in diking there is being further rein forced to add additional capacity, and, in addition, a controlled release is planned as a last resort to ensure that if there's additional water that needs to be taken out of the dikes, that it can flow in a controlled way from the place in the river where there's the best opportunity to manage it and minimize damage to people, families and homes. Controlled Dike Breaches Notifications Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, the reports of a planned, controlled breach of the dikes are obviously significant.

It is an extraordinary measure for a government to have to take to deliberately breach a dike and flood homes and property in order to prevent other damage. I just want to ask the Premier: Given that that has not yet happened, who is responsible for making that decision and what is the criteria that they will use when that decision is made? Mr. Selinger: That decision–we have received advice and a recommendation from our senior flood- fighting officials. The government has accepted their advice that a controlled release of water is necessary. It could be from 2,000 to 6,000 cubic feet a second.

They have identified a location for that controlled release that will allow for maximum management of it, for equipment to have access to it, to put in place the proper resources to allow that controlled release to be managed in the best interests of the primary objective of all the flood fighting in Manitoba, to reduce harm to families, individuals and property. And that's the objective, is to ensure that any measure we take is going to be the maximum measure to reduce the amount of harm that occurs from this unprecedented natura l disaster occurring in the Assiniboine River Valley. Mr.

McFadyen: And can the Premier indicate whether all of the property owners, families and individuals who will be impacted by the controlled breach have, as of now, been notified as to what to expect and the communications protocol that is in place to ensure that every effort can be made to allow those individuals to take what steps are required to protect their property and, of course, to protect themselves and their families. Mr. Selinger: Our Emergency Measures people are working very closely with the local municipality and their emergency operations committee who are reaching out to contact people .

It's important to note that with an uncontrolled breach of the Assiniboine River this area would be very negatively impacted, five times worse than the controlled measures that are being planned. There would be up to 15,000 cubic feet a second that w ould flow into the entire region around there, affecting many communities. This controlled release is intended to go no more than 6,000 cubic feet a second. Conditions are changing very rapidly. Information is being provided to people. They've been notified of the necessity they may have to evacuate their homes.

Resources are being brought in to provide supports in terms of protection for the homes and the property. An additional 300 military personnel have been requested to come to Manitoba to work in this area. So all measures are being taken to provide as much support and relief as possible to people affected by this controlled release. Flooding Information for Residents Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr.

McFadyen: Part of what is creating concern and anxiety throughout the prov ince is the fact that the information coming from government seems to be changing from day to day, if not from hour to hour, in terms of predictions, in terms of expected impacts and in terms of the steps that are going to be required in order to manage this situation.

Can the Premier just provide some level of reassurance that the impacts of the controlled breach, that the forecasts for the coming days are reasonably accurate and paint a true picture of what's going to be required so that people can feel some sense of reassurance, which has been shaken somewhat, Mr. Speaker, as a result of the inaccurate information being provided even as of a couple of days ago. * (13:50)

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1763 Mr. Selinger: The personnel working on managing this flood disaster are among the best floodfighters in North America. They are widely regarded and they are widely studied for the measures that are taken here. They operate on the information that they get. They provide that information and advice to us. That information is part of an ongoing learning process. We have had what we might even call a perfect storm of conditions come together in the last couple of weeks. We knew for a long time that the soil was extremely saturated.

Saturated soil means that if additional moisture or precipitation comes, it has nowhere to go but to run off into the Assiniboine River, in this case, and its tributaries. On April 29th to May 3rd, we had a blizzard which put up to 20 centimetres of snow into western Manitoba. We know that the weather forecast for this week is forecasting somewhere between 20 and 50 millimetres of precipitation here. These two weather events, combined with the saturated soil, are creating extraordinary challenges at this time when the crest is coming to this very area.

So it's all coming together at an unfortunate time for the people in that area. Mr. McFadyen: Well, I think, Mr. Speaker, that the concern that people are expr essing to us throughout the province–those thousands of people from Brandon to Headingley and north and south–the concern is that even afte r the snowfall last weekend that ended on the 3rd of May, even after that snowfall, the Premier and his government were continuing to convey to people that everything was under control within the Assiniboine Valley.

Even as of last Monday, after the snowfall, the message coming out of the Premier and government was that everything was under control. It's quite clear, Mr. Speaker, that is not the case as we stand here today, and I just want the Premier to provide some level of reassurance to Manitobans that the incorrect information being provided after the saturation of the ground and after the–[interjection] I understand the anxiety of members opposite, but their anxiety is nothing compared to the anxiety of Winnipeggers and people west of the province of Manitoba.

I ask them: Instead of chirping from their seats, will they provide accurate information to Manitobans. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, as our staff assess the information, they provide it to us, and that information continues to evolve. People continue to learn from this experience. The last–the flood of record in the Assiniboine River was 1976. Planning was put in place to have dikes built up and resources in place to handle the flood record–the flood of a–the flood event of record in Manitoba, and that was 1976.

That's why the additional resources of $25 million were put into strengthening and raising those dikes in the Assiniboine Valley. As the weather information has changed, it has been taken into account by our forecasters, provided to our officials, and they have brought recommendations forward to us. That continues to be a learning experience. New information is coming forward all the time. The saturated soil creates the rapid runoff conditions. The weather events, the blizzard of April 29th to May 3rd, has brought unprecedented moisture into western Manitoba.

The weather forecast for this week has forecasted very se rious rainfall in the area as well. All of that information is compiled and brought together on a daily basis, and it's combined with the expected crest times, which have varied as well, to look at what needs to be done. Mr. McFadyen: The concern that people are expressing relates to the fact that the soil has been saturated since October, Mr. Speaker, now for about seven months, and other issues that have been part of this, contributing to this situation have been involving–have been evolving over a period of time. Mr.

Speaker, we acknowledge that this is not an exact science. We acknowle dge that there are going to be matters that are beyond the power of anybody to predict. However, there needs to be, in the government's communications with Manitobans, some clarity about what it is that they know and what it is that they don't know to the extent that they aren't certain or that they have a reasonable amount of doubt. It's important for them to be candid with Manitobans about that.

I just want to ask the Premier to provide whatever assurance he can and candour with Manitobans about the likely outcome of the events in the coming days and that all necessary steps are being taken by his government, that all necessary information is being communicated to Manitobans to

1764 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 minimize the amount of damage ultimately done to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the member is correct; we are in uncharted territory here. Once we exceeded the 1976 flood record of historical event in Manitoba, we knew that we were into new and uncharted territory. We have always maintained that we have to be extremely vigilant and that we cannot relax our vigilance and our efforts to continue to prepare and respond to conditions as they unfold.

That's why we started extremely early with the soil saturation conditions and brought the $25 million of additional diking work into place along the Assiniboine River between Portage la Prairie and Baie St. Paul. Really, all that distance, there's been 70 kilometres of dikes that have been strengthened. That's why, currently, they're strengthening the Portage Diversion to add additional capacity there. So those measures are intended to respond to the perfect storm of weather conditions that we've seen. The crest is moving into this area. The crest has changed depending on the conditions to the west of us.

We've also seen that we've had this blizzard from April 29th to May 3rd, and then the serious weather events that are in front of us right now. These things have come together to create additional challenges of flows through the Assiniboine River which are about half the Niagara Falls flows. Assiniboine River Resources for Affected Communities Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, the controlled breach of the dikes on the Assiniboine just east of Portage la Prairie set for as early as tomorrow could have a significant impact on the communities of Elie, Starbuck and Sanford. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the minister: What assistance, both short term and long term, has been and will be given to the town of Elie as people struggle with the knowledge that they might be flooded? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Well, first of all, I think it's important to note the sequencing of what's been happening over the last 48 hours, and I certainly appreciate the member opposite and other members opposite were part of a briefing that we held just–earlier today. Mrs.

Taillieu: I know that the minister earlier said that there would be a release of about 2,000 cfs of flow into the La Salle Ri ver, but the Premier (Mr. Selinger) earlier stated there could be up to 6,000 cfs released. So that is three times as much water going But we are dealing with unprecedented flooding. We are dealing with some significant challenges, and we have, over the last 48 hours, identified ways of maximizing the flow through the Portage Diversion, taking it from its rate of capacity of 25,000 cfs up to in the range of 32 or possibly even higher. We've already been putting, as the Premier (Mr.

Selinger) indicated, significant investments into the Assiniboine dikes. We have also with the help of the military now a target at keeping a flow of 20,000 cfs through those dikes, and th e controlled breach really came down to two decisions: either a potential for an uncontrolled breakout of up to 15,000 cfs that would've inundated both north and south of the river or a much more controlled situation– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, the controlled breach of the Assiniboine River dikes could see water reach Elie within about eight days and then it will work its way towards Starbuck. So, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the minister: What assistance, both short term and long term, has been and will be given to the community of Starbuck as those people there struggle with the knowledge that they might be flooded? Mr. Ashton: I want to indicate, between the two choices, the one that was a breakout would impact upwards of 800 homes, including the homes that will be impacted by the controlled release. I also want to indicate that we've mapped out the anticipated impact. It is in the La Salle area. The majority of the homes that are impacted are in the RM of Portage la Prairie.

There are some homes in Cartier, and we are–we have informed municipalities and the municipalities are enacting their emergency plan. I also want to put on the record, too, as I did in my ministerial statement, we're recognizing the unique circumstance that are impacting on homes in that area. We're also going to be bringing in a special program that will ensure that we have comprehensive coverage and compensation for individuals affected. We're also, as I speak with the military, trying to save as many homes as we– Mr. Speaker: Order.

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1765 down the La Salle River, which is going to have an impact on the communities of Elie, Starbuck and Sanford. So I'd like to just ask the minister again: Once this controlled breach does happen on the Assiniboine River dikes, what assistance, both short term and long term, has been and will be provided to the people of Sanford who may see some flooding in that area? * (14:00) Mr. Ashton: I want to indicate, Mr. Speaker, that what we've identified here is a range. Again, the 2,000 would be the initial release that we would be looking at. It could range up to 6,000.

The primary impact of that will really be the speed at which flooding will take place. I want to indicate, by the way, that this really parallels the natural flood that occurred in 1955 with the La Salle watershed. It would not occur instantaneously throughout the entire area. It could take a number of days to go forward. And it's no different than what we see elsewhere in the province. We see in the Red River Valley there's a bit of a waffle effect, as it's described by our technical staff. Roads act as a dike. But what I want to say is a number of things.

With the assistance of the military, we're making best efforts to save those homes. They are being trained as we speak with Aqua Dams and Tiger Dam usage. We'll be mobilizing sandbags. Mr. Speaker, we're not giving up on those homes in that area. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member for Morris, on a new question. Mrs. Taillieu: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the controlled breach of the dikes on the Assiniboine River can have a devastating effect on about 150 homes, we're told. People need to know what effect this is going to have on homes downstream.

So I'd like to ask the minister to clarify whether there will be less water downstream or still more water, and can the minister assure us if there's appropriate deployment of resources to the areas that are most in need? Mr. Ashton: First of all, we did reach this decision late yesterday. We immediately informed the two municipalities that are impacted. And I want to again indicate the particular challenges facing the RM of Portage la Prairie, because there's also the situation–the member for Portage I know is more than aware of–with the Portage Diversion itself.

I can't say enough, by the way, of how much the Portage Diversion is helping us in this particular case manage a historic flood, a one-in-300-year flood. That's the current estimate in Brandon. I want to stress a couple of other things. We immediately have dispatched the Armed Forces to deal with the Assiniboine dike, but as of this morning, I met with the ranking brigadier general for western Canada. He offered 300 additional staff and I immediately took to request that. I have talked to Vic Toews, my counterpart federally, and they will be in–and they will be out, No. 1 job, those additional reinforcements– Mr.

Speaker: Order. Mrs. Taillieu: Well, Mr. Speaker, some of the communities in my constituency that I have been referring to, some have sandbags and some don't. Some have volunteers and some don't, and some are facing a more devastation–devastating impact than others. So I'd like to ask the minister again to assure us that there is and there will be appropriate deployment of resources to the areas that are most in need. Mr. Ashton: I want to indicate particularly, and I want to emphasize the military response.

They were on-site within hours of the approval that was given by the Prime Minister following the request from the Premier (Mr. Selinger). As of this morning, 300 additional Armed Forces personnel have made available, mostly stationed in Edmonton. And I want to stress, by the way, that many of the soldiers that are now fighting the floods for Manitoba are from Manitoba, including those stationed in Shilo, and reservists. I want to indicate, as well, that if we need additional resources, the brigadier general assured me and Minister Vic Toews assured me, as well, that we would have that ability.

They would access troops in other areas. So we're mobilizing that. We're mobilizing every last rapid deployment system we have in the province, and we've extensively purchased those rapid deployment systems. We're moving, Mr. Speaker. We know time is of the essence and, as I speak, we're training

1766 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 and mobilizing. We're going to do our best to put those– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, the town of Elie has issued a flood evacuation notice to all residents and they have been told they have eight days to prepare. The nearby Hutterite colo nies are struggling to build dikes, as they need to protect their animals. They have in the past been a very valuable volunteer resource for the community, but the people are very worried about what could happen. Mr.

Speaker, will the minister commit today to calling a meeting for Elie and area residents to provide information and support to the people and the officials of the Rural Municipality of Cartier as they prepare for this most serious situation. Mr. Ashton: Well, certainly we welcome–and I do want to put on the record, by the way, the particular contribution over the last number of years of many Hutterite colonies. I will never forget 2009, seeing Hutterite colonies' residents from a considerable distance away from the flood-affected area coming in and helping out.

I do want to stress–and I want to put that on the record. I do want to stress that one of the challenges over the next number of days and one of the reasons we called the Armed Forces in and one of the reasons we've asked the Armed Forces to particularly deploy and protect homes in the controlled area as well as to do the work that 's needed on the dike is they have training in what would be very difficult conditions, very wet conditions. And they are trained to manage risk. They're trained to deal with those type of situations. They have the equipment and we have expanded the role.

In fact, Vic Toews, Minister Vic Toews, indicated there will be no problem with the additional 300 troops. We want to make sure they get in and do that work to protect as many homes as possible. And I want to put on the record again how much we appreciate here in Manitoba, they were there for us then– Mr. Speaker: Order. Assiniboine River Controlled Dike Breaches Consultations Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I view with skepticism the controlled release of Assiniboine River flood waters.

All one has to do is look at the news reports of the Army Corps of Engineers on the controlled release of Mississippi flood waters. Mr. Speaker, the planned breach of both the Assiniboine River Diversion channel and the Assiniboine River dikes is at the top of everyone's mind in the affected area and that of the rural municipal of Portage la Prairie officials. Will the minister responsible please indicate with whom the department consulted in the affected region as they planned fo r this very significant measure? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): We have communicated– we had discussions even as early as this morning with the reeve in the area. We reached the decision, essentially, yesterday. We have also, by the way–I mean, I should put on the record that Candace Hoeppner, MP for the area–and I spoke to her yesterday, and she identifie d a number of concerns that we did respond to this morning. The key issue here, Mr. Speaker, is we had to move quickly. We have made every effort to make sure that the RM of Portage la Prairie is–has been informed as developments progress.

We are dealing with a lot of the concer ns. They are the primary impacted municipality. Cartier is also impacted, but right now it's the RM of Portage la Prairie, and we are aware of that, and we will be responding to many of the concerns that I know the member has raised already about some of the issues in that area. Mr. Faurschou: Mr.

Speaker, yes, indeed, the Portage la Prairie rural municipal council was briefed yesterday afternoon as to the Province's decision, but neither the Portage la Prairie municipal officials nor any one of the residents who grew up alongside the Assiniboine River were allowed to have any significant opportunity to assist in developing the plan to a controlled release of Assiniboine flood waters. Mr. Speaker, why would the minister not allow the invaluable knowledge to be shared with his department personnel before they moved in this significant direction? Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, we did not have time to do anything other than assemble the best expertise, some of the best hydraulic engineering expertise probably in North America, if not the world. That is one thing about Manitoba, whether it's our consulting

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1767 engineers, our provincial staff, some of the retired staff. We were working on scenarios well into the night, Sunday night and into Monday. I consider it a huge achievement that we're looking at going from this graded capacity of 25,000 cfs up to in the range of 32,000 and possibly even 34,000 cfs. We recognize how important that is and some o the impacts in the area, and we have been communicating with the municipalities, et cetera, but, quite frankly, if we don't move–we're talking about a controlled release as early as tomorrow.

Even a delay of a day could end up with a potential for a significant uncontrolled breach, and the consequences of that would be nothing less than catastrophic. Mr. Faurschou: Mr. Speaker, the impact on the residents in and around the controlled release area cannot be overstated. It is a catastrophic event. I would like to ask the minister why he did not consult with anyone as to any other considerations as to whether this controlled release of flood waters from the Assiniboine could be–potentially have an alternative option. * (14:10) Mr. Ashton: I would note, Mr. Speaker, that no less authorities than J.

Doering from the civil engineering faculty at the University of Manitoba–many of the staff that we brought in looked at this, and I want to stress, by the way, that one of the reasons we did look at the Portage Diversion and our capacity in the Assiniboine dikes is because of the fact that we wanted to avoid, if possible, and minimize, if necessary, the controlled release. I want to stress that the impact of an uncontrolled breakout of water volumes and flows of this significance–15,000 cfs–would have an impact all across the RM of Portage la Prairie.

It would have impacts both north and south of the Assiniboine River. We have mapped that out; we identified that up to 800 homes. It was not an easy decision, but time was of the essence, and I want to indicate we're doing our best, as well, to try and save those homes, and we will be there in terms of compensation– Mr. Speaker: Order. Cattle Producers Relocation of Herds Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): I'd like to open by thanking the Minister of Agriculture for the opportunity to tour the Shoal lakes flooding area last week. This spring's flood is having a heavy impact on Manitoba's agricultural sector.

Of immediate urgency is the need to address the effects of flooding on the livestock industry. It has been reported today that it may be necessary to evacuate 100,000 head of cattle. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture explain how the department arrived at these figures and identify the regions from which these cattle will need to be relocated? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): And, indeed, I do appreciate the advice that I received last week on that trip from the member from Emerson and to the member from Lakeside. Mr.

Speaker, our staff has been working very hard, very diligently with the Manitoba beef producers, in particular the Keystone Agricultural Producers, other commodity groups, to identify farmers, ranchers who are up against the wall in terms of dealing with this unprecedented amount of water. The numbers that we work from are numbers that we obtain through our contacts with farmers and ranchers in every region of this province. And I do want to remind the member for Emerson how widespread this problem is.

There are some hot spots in this province that we have to pay particular attention to, but it is a really general flood right across, and we'll be there for those farmers and ranchers. Mr. Graydon: Mr. Speaker, there will be significant logistical challenges in moving up to 100,000 head of cattle. The conditions of the roads will affect how many cattle and calves can be loaded on a truck and trailer. Spring road s restrictions may also be taken into consideration. We have done some calculating and conservatively estimated that to move 100,000 head of cattle it will be equivalent to 3,500 loads of livestock. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture explain how the department will arrange for trucks, trailers to move the livestock? Will producers be expected to make their own arrangements to move

1768 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 animals or will the department be providing assistance? Mr. Struthers: Yes, Mr. Speaker, first of all, I want to point out that we have very good co-operation from–between officials from our Department of Agriculture and other departments in terms of permits and rules and regulations that normally govern what moves on our highways and our byways. Mr. Speaker, we're looking to make it as easy as possible for farmers to move cattle, for farmers to move feed to cattle if that makes more sense.

We don't want those kind of things to get in the way of farmers and ranchers providing protection for what essentially is their livelihood. We're going to make that as easy as possible and we're going to work in co-operation, not just within departments, but from governments to governments, whether it be municipal or federal, to make sure that that job gets done. Mr. Graydon: Mr. Speaker, the other major challenge we're facing will be finding places for the 100,000 head of livestock to go for an unknown period of time. Many community pastures are already filling up as they had cattle previously committed to them.

Some community pastures may not be available if they're too impacted by flooding. Mr. Speaker, can the minister explain where the department anticipates producers will be able to send their cattle? Will they be sent to community pastures, other Crown lands, to land to be rented from producers or possibly even to be land held by third parties such as the Nature Conservancy, as has taken place in 2004? Mr. Struthers: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, as the member for Emerson saw on our tour last week, department officials have been working very creatively with ranchers themselves to make sure that we either get feed to cattle or cattle out of wet conditions to feed. I think he will admit, too, that that kind of work has been happening with our officials. I want him to know that we will leave no option unexplored in terms of where the cattle can go. We've had–I was reminded we have examples from the past where cattle have been moved great distances, outside of the province in some cases, and we've done the same for other provinces.

I a l s o w a n t t o m a k e i t v e r y c l e a r t h a t w e will leave no program unexplored in terms of compensation and working with farmers to make sure that they're compensated very swiftly and they're compensated very fairly for storing this water on their land, you know, taking– Mr. Speaker: Order. Assiniboine River Controlled Dike Breaches Consultations Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I want to provide a thank you to all those who are working so hard and tirelessly to protect us from the flood, the provincial, municipal and federal officials, the men and women of our Canadian Armed Forces and the many volunteers. And I want to also add that while we may not always agree with the methodology of the government, that the Minister of Infrastructure and the First Minister we know are working very hard in the service of our product–province to protect Manitoba. Thank you for that. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Mi nister of Infrastructure to tell us when he first realized that there had to be drastic action taken and to describe the process that was taken in order to reach the decision to have controlled flooding of the region south and west of Portage la Prairie. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): And I also want to thank the member. I did have the opportunity to brief him on Sunday and, of course, he used to live in that area and does have very significant knowledge, and one of the things that was very useful was the perspective of the '55 flood.

We have actually talked to people that have experience with that, and that is a–it's our closest benchmark in terms of this particular flooding. I can indicate, in a general sense, that we–and that's our flood response team–became aware of the specific challenges essentially over the weekend. The key new information was of the weather situation, very significant rainfall. What we then identified as the gap in the capacity–and I've outlined that; I won't get into the details again–we then identified what we could do and I'll answer perhaps in more detail– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the minister for his response. I understand that there are at least 150 homes, an uncertain number of businesses and the livelihoods of many workers who could be at risk with the decision for the controlled flooding event.

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1769 And I ask the minister, knowing that there could be as many as a 150 homes, many businesses and many workers impacted by the controlled flood event, did the minister exhaust all other options before making the decision to cut a channel in the dike so that the water would flow out from the Assiniboine River south and west of–south and east of Portage la Prairie? Mr. Ashton: I want to stress, again, this decision was not reached lightly. It was also based on full analysis by the staff.

We brought together some of the best expertise, both within government and outside of government. We did indeed look at what we can maximize through the Portage Diversion. When I say maximize through the Portage Diversion, also recognizing that you have limits there as well. You have to have control over what happens. We did a lot of work, for example, on the hydraulic capabilities, maintaining that as well as increasing the flow, as we've done that in terms of the dikes, and I mentioned that. It really came down to the two scenarios. The one was an uncontrolled breakout.

The second was a controlled release of that water. So we went through a sequential process, and the clear recommendation yesterday afternoon which we immediately communicated with the public was the option that we have proceeded with. Compensation for Flood Victims Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, again I thank the minister for his response and for all the hard work of his department, government officials and volunteers and many others. Mr.

Speaker, I finally ask the minister: Will there be an appropriate level of compensation available to the homeowners of the area who would be maybe losing their property, to the businesses in the area who will be, in some cases, very severely adversely affected and to the workers who will lose their jobs as a result of the impact of this controlled flooding of businesses in the area? * (14:20) Mr.

Ashton: And I do want to echo the words of the member because there's been a lot of work going on right now, and I really want to put on the record, by the way, that everyone, including the forecasters who have probably the most difficult challenge you could ever imagine, a one-in-300-year flood, unprecedented in this province, they've been working 24-7 along with the survey crews. We've gone from two to 13 crews throughout this province, Mr. Speaker.

So we've done a lot of work collectively, and we've–it's a very difficult situation, but we will–and I think the member asked a very good question–we will make sure that there is special compensation programs specifically for those impacted by the controlled release that will be special and it will be comprehensive. We'll make sure that we not only try and protect those homes but we also cover any of the kind of damages that may occur as well. We will have a special program, and that announcement is effective as of today. Shoal Lakes Flooding Compensation and Mitigation Strategy Mr.

Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I want to thank the Minister of Agriculture for visiting the Shoal lakes area last week to see the first-hand devastation effect of a flood going there. I know farmers and rural municipalities appreciate being able to provide him with direct feedback on this very serious situation. I recognize that government is very busy right now in many regions dealing with this spring flood. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Agriculture that he will develop an assistance plan for those producers affected. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Selinger) for his assurance of the supports, the prompt delivery of such a plan to help those producers be done by this Friday, as suggested by the Minister of Agriculture. Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Well, I'll begin by thanking the member for Lakeside for the advice that he gave me as we met with many of his constituents who are, indeed, under stressful conditions right now. We all know how important it is for farm families to feed their livestock and contribute to the provincial economy that way. Mr.

Speaker, we saw some very graphic examples of how farm fami lies are working to feed their cattle. We saw some very, I thought, some heartwarming examples of farmers getting together to solve the problem, and I'll reference–I think a constituent of the member for Lakeside, a

1770 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 Mr. Tataryn, whose neighbours got together and helped him in lending him– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, we know that short-term strategies are imperative wh en it comes to producers hit hard by the Shoal Lake area flooding. The impact is also being felt by many other stakeholders in the area, including other residents, businesses and local municipalities. A long-term strategy is also needed. Stakeholders are hoping that a plan can be finalized so work can commence as soon as possible. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier (Mr.

Selinger) commit today to having a long-term strategy identified over the next few weeks to address the very serious situation in the Shoal Lake area? Mr. Struthers: Mr. Speaker, we all know that there's been a lot of discussion, a lot of consultation that's taken place in terms of a long-term approach to this part of our province. We know that the Shoal lakes continues to grow, and part of the problem is that they don't recede, and that's what puts farmers in a tough bind in terms of trying to eke out a living in this part of our province.

My first and foremost focus as Agriculture Minister was to make sure that we work with farmers to get feed to their cattle or cattle to the–to some place high and dry. We visited a bison ranch along the way and saw the same kind of problems there. Mr. Speaker, my other goal as Agriculture Minister is to make sure that these farmers receive support until that time wh en there is a long-term strategy put in place and the long-term action that is undertaken. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to members' statements, I'd like to draw attention to honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from the Interlake Mennonite Fellowship School, we have 19 grade 8 to 12 students under the direction of Anton Penner. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for the Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Asian Heritage Month Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Each year during the month of May, we observe Asian Heritage Month.

For the past 18 years, Canada has recognized this special celebration of cultures and traditions. All across Canada, many cities have events planned throughout May to celebrate the proud Asian heritage of thousands of Canadians. In our own province, the Asian Heritage Society of Manitoba has organized numerous activities to celebrate this month and to share Asian culture with Manitobans from other backgrounds. The Asian Heritage Society of Manitoba was formed with the mandate of bringing together members of the Asian Canadian communities in Manitoba to develop events to celebrate Asian Heritage Month.

They also aim to foster cultural identity among youth and to share Asian culture and traditions with Manitobans. The Manitoba Asian Heritage Society is made up of representatives from the Japanese, Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, Indo-Chinese, Korean and Filipino communities. This society hosted an official opening ceremony on May 7th at the Indo-Canadian Arts and Cultural Centre. Over the past few days in the coming weeks, events have been planned that showcase arts, culture, cu isine and traditions of Asian culture. There are other groups getting into the spirit of Asian Heritage Month as well.

The Charleswood Senior Centre held a Japanese tea yesterday with special guest Art Miki. Th ere was traditional green tea and sushi for attendees to sample, as well as Japanese dance and flower-arranging demonstrations. On Sunday, May 22nd, and Monday, May 23rd, The Forks will host the Asian Canadian Festival. The festival will include traditional dance, music, martial arts, drumming and a fireworks display. Manitoba's Asian population has made significant contributions to our society.

While there are many well-established Asian communities throughout the province, we continue to welcome thousands of new immigrants from this part of the world each year. Asian Heritage Month provides the opportunity to celebrate the culture, traditions, cuisine and arts of these communities. I encourage Manitobans to take

part in the cultural celebrations during Asian

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1771 Heritage Month, and congratulations to all the organizers for making this year's celebrations a success. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ken Henderson Mr. Frank Whitehead (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize a local artist, Ken Henderson, who is an undeniable source of energy and inspiration in the OCN and The Pas community. Ken started playing music when he was only 11 years old. Since then, he has made music a central part of his life and has used it to change the lives of others.

Ken and his all-Aboriginal band from OCN, Chrome 204, have not only had great success but have been a driving force behind many great projects with the youth in the area. Ken recalls looking up on the stage as a young boy and deciding that music was what he wanted to do. It was that goal that kept him moving forward through his youth. Now, years later, Ken is mentoring kids that are in the same situation as he was. Ken and his bandmate s were instrumental in creating the Northern Roots Music Festival.

Their vision was to inspire local youth to consider music as a healthy life path and to use it as something to look forward to. The festival did exactly that. Through music workshops, they left kids inspired and aware of what music can do. Travelling around the north and seeing different communities is what inspired Ken to use music to help people. He's a natural leader. He sees the kids looked up to him and is unafraid to act as a role model for them. Chrome 204 has released a new hit single "Meant to Be," which can be heard on radio stations across the country.

They have gained even more momentum this year as the band made it to No. 10 spot on the National Aboriginal Top 40 Countdown. Even among very well-known acts from across Canada, this small band from OCN is making its way to the top. I'm happy that a group such a–with such an encouraging message is seeing this success. The band is currently fi nishing their first album and has their sights set on the Aboriginal People's Choice Music Awards. Good luck to you, and thank you for being such a great influence in our community. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Move 'N Groove-a-Thon 2011 Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): And today I rise to recognize a very special event that took place on Saturday, April the 9th, 2001. Mr. Speaker, it was the Movement Centre of Manitoba's lively Move 'N Groove-a-Thon. * (14:30) The Move 'N Groove-a-Thon is a celebration of individuals in our community who live with physical disability. It is also an opportunity to raise awareness about disability and to increase functional independence through conductive education. Mr. Speaker, participants had a great time dancing from noon till midnight to some of Winnipeg's fine musical talent.

The Move 'N Groove-a-Thon featured some awesome bands, including Winnipeg's own rising star, Savannah Rae Boyko. It was a very successful event with 440 dancers making up the 34 teams that participated. I was pleased to be a part of one of the teams that participated in this event. In total, the 34 teams helped raise $123,000, Mr. Speaker, and that was $23,000 over the Movement Centre's goal, and it just speaks to the generosity of Manitobans.

The funds were raised–the funds that were raised will help the Movement Centre work to increase awareness of conductive education programs for those with physical disabilities. Mr. Speaker, the Movement Centre's a non-profit rehabilitation organization that is dedicated to working with children and adults with mobility challenges, including cerebral palsy, head injury, stroke, MS and Parkinson's disease.

These diseases can leave individuals feeling vulnerable, but with the help of conductive education programs, the Movement Centre helps people with neurological conditions gain or regain physical mobility, increase confidence and functional independence. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate all of the 440 participants for their hard work in the 2011 Move 'N Groove-a-Thon. It was the first event of its kind, and I'm sure it will be repeated again in years to come. As well, I want to commend the Movement Centre for their invaluable contribution to individuals with physical disabilities in our province.

A big thanks to all the volunteers and all of those people that were involved this year, and we wish the movement much–the Movement Centre much success in the years ahead.

1772 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Gloria Whitford and Dolores Samatte Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, some of the strongest voices in northern Manitoba are the voices of women. Today, I would like to honour two Métis women, both from Cranberry Portage, and both essential leaders of our community: Gloria Whitford and Dolores Samatte. Gloria was raised in Moose Lake. She worked out of Cranberry Portage for much of her life. This past year, Gloria was honoured with a Frontier Achievement Award for a lifetime of dedicated service.

For years, she has been an active leader in the Frontier School Division. When Gloria sees a need in the community, she always responds. Gloria has supported many great initiatives in Cranberry Portage over th e years. One example is starting the nutritious snack program at the elementary school. Gloria recruited volunteer bakers and gives freely of her time and supplies to ensure the kids have healthy muffins once a week. She also serves on the in motion committee, trying to keep the community healthy and active.

Of course, this is just a small sample of the many great things that have come from this strong, kind and compassionate woman. I add my voice to the many friends and colleagues who have nothing but praise for her. The second woman I would like to commend is Dolores Samatte, who has recently–who was recently honoured by the circle of Aboriginal educators with the trailblazer lifetime achievement award. Each year, these awards recognize people that have made outstanding contributions to Aboriginal education. Dolores truly deserved this award.

Dolores grew up in Crane River, where getting an education proved difficult; however, she persevered. After completing high school in Ste. Rose du Lac and getting her teacher's certificate, Dolores spent many years working in the Frontier School Division. It comes as no surprise that Dolores was selected for this honour because of all her years in education, whether it was in teaching, administration, curriculum development or other community initiatives. Dolores–or other community initiatives. Dolores was the first co-ordinator of the Brandon University Northern Teachers Education Program in Cranberry Portage.

She's also an essential part of the local church. She has also served on the Council on Post-Secondary Education. It is not only her dedication to education, but her care, compassion and good nature that shines through in her work. These two women have done much to strengthen life in the north. The work they do improves our quality of life today and safeguards what is most important for the next generation. Thank you Gloria and Dolores for all that you have done for us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Canadian Masters Curling Championship Mrs.

Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): As the MLA for the Minnedosa constituency, I would like to take this opportunity today to congratulate a wonderful team of four women from Westman: Cheryl Orr of Minnedosa, Karen Dunbar of Souris, Linda Van Daele of Brandon teamed up under skip Joyce McDougall of Nesbitt to compete at the 2011 Canadian Masters Curling Championships in Winnipeg. The McDougall rink that competed out of the Brandon Curling Club represented Manitoba in the 10-team women's draw. While representing our province, they also landed victory, winning the national women's title with a perfect record of 8-0. Mr.

Speaker, the team experienced an exciting and challenging tournament. In the final match, McDougall played against BC and had to work hard for the win. McDougall was up by four, then, in the fifth end, BC was back in the game scoring four. It was a tie game heading into the sixth end when Linda Van Daele made a clutch shot to turn the tables back into Manitoba's favour. The Manitoba ladies continued to apply pressure and in the seventh end sealed an 8-11 win.

For the McDougall rink it was more than just a personal triumph, as th e ladies–or the women are now the first Manitoba Masters women to win a national title. On a side note, Cheryl Orr and her husband Ray Orr of Minnedosa can now both claim to be Canadian Masters Curling Championship winners in Manitoba, a first, I believe, in Manitoba for both a husband and wife team. Mr. Speaker, I would like to, again, congratulate the McDougall rink on a successful season and well-played championship.

We are so happy and proud to have you represent Wesman and Manitoba and we wish you all the best as you can take time to celebrate your achievements and a successful season, and I'm sure there are many more seasons to come very similar to the one they experienced this year. Way to go.

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1773 ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on House business. Hon. Jennifer Howard (Government House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker, on House business. Pursuant to rule 31(8), I am announcing that the private member's resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be one put forward by the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Whitehead). The title of the resolution is Health in the North. Mr.

Speaker: Pursuant to rule 31(8), it's been announced that the private member's resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be the one that will be put forward by the honourable member for The Pas, and the title of the resolution is Health in the North. The honourable Government House Leader, on further House business. Ms. Howard: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on further House business. Would you please canvas s the House to see if there's agreement to change the Estimates sequence such that the Estimates for Sport will be considered today in Room 255.

They'll be followed by Employee Pensions and Other Costs, although I'm informed that only Sport will be considered today. Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement to change the Estimates sequence such that the Estimates for Sport will be considered today in Room 255, to be followed by Employee Pensions and Other Costs? [Agreed] The honourable Government House Leader, on further House business. Ms. Howard: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to announce for members that it's the intention for the House to consider Estimates on Friday, even though condolences are to be considered on Thursday. Mr.

Speaker: Okay, it's also been announced that on Friday we will continue on with Estimates, even though on Thursday we will be dealing with condolences, but on Friday we will be dealing with Estimates. Okay, that's the information for all members of the House. The honourable Government House Leader, on further House business. Ms. Howard: Would you please resolve us into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: Okay, we will now resolve into Committee of Supply. And in the Chamber will be Innovation, Energy and Mines, and room 255, Employee Pensions and Other Costs, and room 254 is Health.

Okay, so would the respective Chairs go to the rooms that they will be chairing, please. Correction for the House, in room 255 will be Estimates of Sport, not Employee Pensions and Other Costs. It will be Estimates for Sport. That's the information for the House. We'll resume Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (14:40) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. Yesterday in this

section of the Committee of Supply, a resolution for the Department of Healthy Living, Youth and Seniors was passed without mention of the resolution number. For the record, I would like to clarify that the following resolution was passed yesterday in this section: Resolution 34.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $19,399,000 for Healthy Living, Youth and Seniors, Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2012. Thank you. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As had been previously agreed, questions for the department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): When we closed yesterday, I was just getting to a point, and, of course, it was in a discussion concerning political staff, and we were, I suppose, having a debate on it, differences in approaches to staffing offices and so forth.

1774 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 And I was on the brink of saying that, for our purposes in this committee, for reasons that are understandable, to distinguish department staff from political staff from, you know, administrative staff and so forth, we do give them these labels, but I think it's fair to say that because they have that label "political staff" doesn't mean that they are perpetually engaged in really aggressive political or partisan work all of the time. They certainly do function to help prepare me for events and making remarks in different places and question period, and the like.

But they do lots and lots of work with Manitobans, with groups that want to come to meet, everyone from, you know, patients, their families, First Nations groups, municipalities, community groups, advocacy organiza tions, you know, like Heart and Stroke, or the Cancer Society, you name it. And they're very committed individuals, and I would say it's not unlike, you know, if I can put on the record, Ms. Cook. I'm not sure if she's still working with the member opposite, I think her name was Kathleen, who, I saw, you know, day in, day out, working at the side of the member for Charleswood.

And, you know, frankly, I wished she hadn't worked that hard at times, but she did a very good job in preparing and assisting the member and she had many conversations with staff in my office. And it was my impression, from my own observations, and certai nly from the remarks from staff in my office, that she was someone that really cared about people, and wh en they called opposition members with concerns about their loved ones, she really wanted to work together to get to the bottom of an issue and try to resolve it. And I would say that sta ff in my office are really not different in that regard.

They are appointed as political staff, that is a fact, but they really do work to help Manitobans resolve their issues and help some of their ideas come to fruition. And so, again, while we may agree to disagree on staffing complement or layout, I'm reasonably sure that we can agree that these, you know, for the young people, are quite committed to making Manitoba a better place to be, and I really want that to be on the record. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): And I thank the minister for her comments on that.

And I just want to point out that I do not doubt the value of the staff and the work that they do, and I imagine the long hours they put in and the commitment that they have to their job. I'm–that wasn't the genesis of my question at all. And I have to admit, also, that a number of them have been very helpful when Kathleen Cook has called. We don't make all of our issues political. Sometimes we look at seriousness of the case and just take it to some of the staff in the minister's office and just try to resolve an issue and we have been able to do that on a number of occasions.

So, you know, I'm grateful to the amount of work that, you know, and support her political staff have given to some issues. My question, and the genesis of it was more around how many she had, considering that back in 1999, the NDP made a very, very big fuss about the number of staff in the minister's office and within the executive support and admi nistrative components of Manitoba Health. And, in fact, that was one of their big headlines in one of their election promises was: Less bureaucracy, more front-line staff.

And all I'm pointing out is while they were disparaging of an ever-growing bureaucracy at that time, what they've actually done, in this instance, is double up political staff in the minister's office. And I also note that they've doubled up on assistant–or associate deputy ministers and gone from–I believe we had three in the '90s, and now there's six. Can the minister indicate why there is the need for six ADMs when, in fact, supposedly, the intent of regionalization was to decrease the number of, you know, people at that level? That was the intent.

In fact, the intent was to decrease the size of Manitoba Health, and I will be asking her shortly for whether or not those numbers are going up or down. * (14:50) But, considering the, you know, the loud noise that was made by the NDP in the '90s about all of this, and the fact that regionalization was to have seen a decreasing size in Manitoba Health, can the minister justify why her department felt they had to double up on the number of ADMs? Ms.

Oswald: And, again, I do recall having a conversation about this last year and acknowledging that there again are different views on how staffing complements may be developed within a department. We do have six ADMs. We know a number of provinces have more than that. We have–I think, B.C., nine; Alberta, seven; Ontario, 12; Québec, seven; but we know that there has been a lot of work done over the course of the last decade in areas of

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1775 Health human resource recruitment, and of course that is an area which is under the purview of one of those ADMs. We know that we have expanded programs across Manitoba within the context of our regions and that's an area of responsibility for one of the ADMs, you know.

We have seen additional programs be developed like the Protection for Persons in Care, critical incident monitoring and review, personal care home standards inspections, so the increase in responsibility, in my view, warrants having leadership, making sure that there is good stewardship of the programs that we put into place. And so, again, I believe the member is asking or is imminently going to ask on the subject of positions within Manitoba Health. I'm informed there are 224 fewer positions in Manitoba Health than there were in 1999.

According to the '98-99 Estimates schedule, we saw 1,416 full-time positions in the department. This year we see the number at Manitoba Health at 1,210. I would note that this is up from last year from 1,192. We saw an increase of 18 positions at Selkirk Mental Health Centre and these positions are all security related, I might add. So, again, we have seen a significant increase in the kinds of programs and opportunities available to Manitobans, in my view, and accordingly, we have leadership in place to shepherd these initiatives forward.

We know that the Manito ba Health numbers also include hundreds of staff that do work directly with patients and families or support front-line care. I think that's important to note. Four hundred and eighty-seven of those staff are at Selkirk Mental Health Centre. That is an increase from '99 of some 78 positions. We see 95 positions at Cadham lab, which is an increase of five from '99. Twenty staff are working at northern nursing stations.

So, you know, overall we do believe that we have some of the finest individuals in the province that are really dedicated to seeing these initiatives come forward including new ones, fulfilling our commitment of every Manitoban having a family doctor by 2015, assisting with the development of capital infrastructure, helping more and more families become part of the Pharmacare program, assisting people with provincial health coverage and out-of-province health-care coverage questions. They're a busy group and I commend them for the work that they do. Mrs.

Driedger: And as I indicated as well in my opening comments, I do value the work of the people within the department, and certainly the genesis of my questions is not related to that, but more in line with what the government is doing in terms of increasing numbers. Now, a question that has come up in looking at the civil service growth compared to growth of the Department of Health, 1999.

One of my staff had been looking at these numbers and they said that the Manitoba–that Manitoba Health has grown by nearly 10 per cent since 1999, and it was looking at the growth of Manitoba Health staff relative to the overall civil service numbers. Is that a number that the minister is familiar with in terms of the 10 per cent growth? Ms. Oswald: The number that the member cites in relation to employment in the civil service, that 10 per cent number, is not one with which I'm intimately familiar–it's not at my fingertips.

If there was something specific about it, that, you know, the member would like me to do some homework upon and then get back to her, I'm very pleased to do that. We know that expenditure in department–in the Department of Health for health has increased over time. It is a significant percentage of the overall provincial budget; that's, you know, undeniably true. And the oversight that needs to go into the, you know, the accounting a nd the spending and the appropriate resourcing, you know, with those funds, you know, does require the leadership that we do have in place.

And, you know, not to repeat what I said before, when we see increases in staffing in the Department of Health and how the–who is captured within the context of the Department of Health, much of this does pertain to direct front-line service and support services on the front line. So I wouldn't want, once again, that to get lost in the context, but on the specific 10 per cent number related to civil service that the member is referencing, you know, perhaps she could expand on that a little bit and maybe direct me on some homework she might like me to do on that. Mrs.

Driedger: I would also indicate that when my staff were looking at these overall civil service numbers that if you included Healthy Living, Youth and Seniors, that, in fact, the numbers increase to 18 per cent. So it looked like there was some

1776 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 significant civil service growth compared, you know, in the Department of Health since 1999. So it's something if the minister has some interest in further explor ing herself, I'm sure she could, but in looking at that particular chart, that was certainly what was–has been drawn to my attention. The minister indicated other provinces that had larger numbers of ADMs, and certainly I would expect Alberta, BC, Ontario, Québec to have higher numbers there, because they have a higher population.

I would note, though, and I do believe Saskatchewan only has three ADMs, or maybe they were looking at going to a fourth, but certainly not six like Manitoba. So, you know, can the minister tell us why, you know, as comparing to just Saskatchewan, who also happen to be in a regionalized structure, why Manitoba tends to want to have a much bigger government than the Saskatchewan Party-run Health Department in Saskatchewan? * (15:00) Ms.

Oswald: Well, yes, again, I would reiterate that in Manitoba, there has been substantial building and rebuilding of the system over the last 10 years, you know, from literal capital development in of, you know, all corners of the province to the building of human resources. I think, if I recall–and I would want to double-check this–but I think the way that things are structured in the neighbouring Saskatchewan, there are a number of–I think they might be called special advisers or people in direct relation to the deputy minister, I believe.

And so it may be a case of, you know, what's in a name, in terms of who's doing the work, who's being paid for the work, and how–you know, what they're being paid and how they're being labelled. I do think that we're pretty close to Saskatchewan. I do know that, you know, each province, regardless of their complements of deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers, do have their challenges that they have to meet. I know Saskatchewan is no different in that regard in, you know, whether or not they would benefit from additional leadership at the top to deal with ongoing issues is certainly for them to decide.

It's our belief in Manitoba that we have the complement right now that is required for the initiatives that have happened over the decade and that are in flight right now. So, again, you know, I hear what the member is saying and, again, I would reiterate that I, too, understand that she's not speaking personally about the competence of any of these individuals; she's speaking about the–just the existence of their position. And it's a subject, I think we had quite a bit of debate last year on it, and we, I suppose, can have it again.

I would just reiterate that position for position we know that we're down 224 today than in 1999 in Manitoba Health overall, and that's not an insignificant thing when you consider the initiatives that are being pursued and the work that's being done. Mrs. Driedger: In the category of executive support, it indicates that there are 15 staff, or 15 FTEs employed. Can the minister indicate who all of those 15 are and what their roles would be? Ms.

Oswald: I was already to go with my political staff names, but I don't–right at my fingertips–have those right in front of me, but I can commit to the member to forward that information to her. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate, are those 15 just the people within her office as the Minister of Health or does it also encompass the office of the deputy minister? Ms. Oswald: It does capture the deputy's office as well, otherwise, I'm pretty sure I'd know them by heart. Mrs. Driedger: With the concern rising over the flood, can the minister indicate the role of her department in dealing with this flood? Ms.

Oswald: And I thank the member for the question. As I said in my opening remarks yesterday, we really do commend the people in the Department of Health for the role that they are playing in preparing for the flood and circumstances that result from flooded facilities or roads, or the like. And I, first of all, want to extend my deep-seated gratitude to the two staff that are at the table.

The deputy minister and the chief financial officer have had to be very nimble in working with our regional health authorities and with our team, which is centred out of what is known as the Office of Disaster Management, or ODM, for expediency's sake, to ensure that we are working in partnership with the overarching government incident command structure to make sure that Health has a seat at the table and can be as prepared and proactive as

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1777 possible in concert with overall emergency measures operations. And the Office of Disaster Management has been working with all of our partners, RHAs and First Nations since December on spring flood preparedness. I would argue, frankly, they've been working since the flood of 2009, which I know the member will remember. They finished up with that and began to fold up their tent at about noon one day, and it was about 1 o'clock that word came that the pandemic was coming. And so the tent went right back up, and they never got a break.

So, really, they have been preparing all along but, specifically in relation to this flood experience, they've been working since December. We know that they have prepared, as they always do, for worst-case scenarios, which, you know, involve contemplating the, you know, mass evacuation of patients, and have been doing exercises and planning with a variety of levels within government for that kind of extreme situation.

We know three health facilities have been evacuated as of today, and I'm very happy to report that I'm informed that there have been no adverse events associated with any of these facility evacuations, which is a very good thing. Patients–eight patients, I believe, were evacuated from Gladstone; 21 patients from Wawanesa PCH; there were evacuations of the PCH in St. Adolphe; and, of course, a number of those people have now been returned safely, which is a good thing.

We know that one of the main jobs of the Office of Disaster Management in working with the flood is working with each RHA on the issue of continuity of care. When residents, of course, are evacuated, the RHA that receives the evacuated residents wants to ensure that there are arrangements made for public health nurses to meet with each evacuee and assess their health needs, and this would include everything from helping to get evacuees to dialysis appointments.

The Office of Disaster Management matches the list of evacuees against the list of evacuees assessed by the RHA to make sure that everybody that has been evacuated is being seen, so there's cross-referencing going on to work to ensure nobody gets lost, nobody with health needs is unaccounted for. Also, of course, Public Health and the Office of Drinking Water are very actively involved in monitoring water quality and, of course, issue boil water advisories as needed.

Patients and families have also received letters from their care providers in the RHAs, from CancerCare , for example, about flood hazards and what prep aredness they need to be considering. This work, of course, has intensified in the current rather extreme scenario that's being–or that is unfolding before us. Of course, the Office of Disaster Management has been very actively involved with the STARS organization, and we've learned a lot from them from 2009 and we're learning a lot from this experience as well.

We know that up to the recent events that are unfolding that there were already, you know, some, you know, over 2,700 kilometres of road that had been closed in Manitoba and this is going to increase significantly with the current events, and response times for EMS have been maintained and within benchmark, which we're very pleased to report. * (15:10) There's, of course, analysis going on digitally of postings for our EMS vehicles–geo-posting, that is, and they're intimately connected to STARS and to MTCC to be able to monitor and maintain those response times, and, to date, we have been able to maintain those.

I believe this note is up to date. I stand to be corrected, but I believe STARS has transported 22 patients so far. They've flown more missions than that, but actual transports have been 22. Not every one of those has been directly related to people stranded by flood. They've been responding to traumas outside of that as well. These have included cardiac, other trauma, stroke and serious cases requiring rapid specialist care. Pediatric cases have been involved. And some of these have, you know, quite literally been between life and death, and in a number of cases I'm very happy to report that the result was life.

I could go on with that, but I think I've given the member a flavour for how ODM has been involved and how Health has been involved, but she may have questions so I'll just stop there for now. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate whether any personal care homes or hospitals are currently vulnerable now to the oncoming water? Ms. Oswald: The optimistic answer is that it does not appear that there will be directly affected facilities as a result of the controlled release of water.

But the Office of Disaster Management is really working to have a far-reaching preventative plan in place in the event that, you know, the unthinkable

1778 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 should happen and the controlled turns to uncontrolled. And that would start to develop into a scenario that, you know, would be really, really serious for, you know, any number of environments, including health facilities. We know reasonably far downstream there is the St. Norbert PCH, and the Office of Disaster Management has performed risk assessment on the PCH. It has, to date, determined that it will not be indirectly affected either, but we are keeping a very close eye on that.

The controlled release of the Assiniboine has an important benefit, one would argue, if there is benefit to be found in these dire times, that it will allow much better planning for the EMS network and the pre-positioning of our ambulances in areas where we'll have a better sense of where there will be road closures and not will be a critically important piece. We know that we have also pre-positioned medical personnel to be in close proximity to the military personnel that are working at, you know, arguably, pretty risky situations, and we're prepared for that as well.

But if there's one thing that the deputy minister and the head of the Office of Disaster Management say to me every single day, we have a plan, we're planning for the worst, but in these situations we have to continue to expect the unexpected. So I would say that, within the context of our plan, we are not feeling that we're in imminent danger of losing facilities, but we are preparing just in case. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate where patients would go if they are removed from a personal care home or a hospital? Like, what contingency is in place, because most PCHs sound like they're full up?

I imagine a lot of hospitals are pretty busy but maybe have some ability to accept patients. So is there a plan in place for any number, anywhere along the river, for patients–you know, if there was flooding anywhere, is there a plan in place for these patients to be taken to certain other facilities? Ms.

Oswald: Yes, there is, and part of the work of the Office of Disaster Management has been mapping beds and mapping capacity and mapping contingencies and, as was the case during the pandemic, if need be, in some of the more extreme scenarios that are being contemplated, there would be, in urban centres, the option of standing down on elective surgeries to make sure that beds were freed up. We hope we don't need to do that, but that is certainly part of the plan. There is also practice and work that has been done with a mobile hospital, the national stockpile.

It's not pretty, but it works, and those exercises have happened, indeed, to make available additional capacity in that respect. In fact, a test was done quite recently and it went very smoothly. So I don't have in front of me the ODM's map of if X patients in Souris need to be moved, they will be transferred to Y, but if the member is interested, you know, to have further information, I would be very pleased to make available a briefing for her about potential contingencies with the understanding that if, you know, ODM is in flight moving people, we would have to modify how that briefing went.

But, yes, those plans and those maps and those contingencies do exist, and they are ready to be triggered at literally a moment's notice. What we've tried to do in a situation where there was more time, is to ensure that the evacuation of vulnerable elderly patients happened well in advance of a potential evacuation of a community so that we could mitigate stress.

Obviously, in situ ations like we're seeing today with the controlled breach, we won't have as much luxury of time, but I know that every care will be taken to manage and mitigate stress wherever possible, and we do have complements of nurses and social workers on hand to be receiving people and really watching, not just their individual health status but stress level as well, which we know full well can be half of the battle in these situations. Mrs.

Driedger: I appreciate the update from the minister, and I certainly don't need or feel in need of any, you know, further hard data at this point in time, and, hopefully, situations like we've just talked about may not come to be and this will resolve as good as it possibly can. Has the minister had an y thoughts as to whether or not we might need a second STARS ambulance here during the flood, and is that an option? Ms. Oswald: Given the measuring of the current flight volumes of the helicopter, it's–it isn't at present looking like it's something that we will need to pursue.

We know that STARS, as an organization, has been exceedingly accommodating. I'm not sure that they have a number of ambulances–helicopters lying around, but it certainly has been the case across jurisdictions that in situations and circumstances of intense need, there have been resources that have

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1779 been shared and we would not be hesitating to speak with Alberta about any potential options on that. It's not looking like that's going to be something we're going to need, but, again, I'm not inclined to tempt Mother Nature by saying we won't need additional resources. We do, of course, have Lifeflight, which we continue to use where we can. And, again, the pre-positioning of our land ambulances in concert with the one helicopter seems to be doing a very good job right now, but, again, it will be ongoing monitoring to be sure. * (15:20) Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister give us a time frame in which she thinks we might possess our own air ambulance, or is she going to leave that for a big election photo op? Ms. Oswald: Well, I never get sick of having my picture taken beside those fellows and that helicopter. I'm not going to dispute that. But I can say that we are in very active discussions on a couple of fronts in the department and have been since the time that we announced that we would go forward with a helicopter program. Really, it does come down to two paths that we might choose to take.

You know, grow our own system here in Manitoba, which other jurisdictions have looked at doing and, indeed, have done. You know, certainly, in the case of Ontario, we've seen their orange flight or ambulance program develop in that way. Another choice we have is to look at expanding our relationship with STARS and looking very closely at their model. We know that our relationship has been excellent with them, and they have been very open and very generous–I think I'm not using too strong a word–in the sharing of their expertise. I know that we had staff travelling last week to meet with STARS in Alberta.

In fact, the deputy was on that trip–it was a good trip–and we see a real opportunity, I think, for a mutually beneficial relationship. We know that the staff and, indeed, the CEO from STARS has been very actively involved in looking at MTCC as a potential model to take back to Alberta, and we're very proud of that. They do things one way there and see a lot of opportunity for augmenting their system with how things are working at our MTCC. So the synergies are really building; I will say that. It's, you know, premature for me to say we've signed on the dotted line.

There are still some issues that need to be worked out and in the contemplation of which path to take. We're really hoping that, quite frankly, we'll be able to continue, even in a phased-in way, potentially with STARS until our own program is in place, which means one could argue that, you know, our program has already started.

So it's too early for me to say that we have landed that particular decision, but I believe we're very, very close to being able to inform Manitobans about which path we're going to take going forward, and the selection of which path will then determine when we'll be able to say our helicopter program will start in earnest in Manitoba, and I just–I can't yet say today, but we're close. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister explain how this STARS program would work with the provinces? I don't want to make assumptions, but I guess I'm assuming that the Province of Alberta has some kind of a relationship with STARS.

I understand maybe Saskatchewan has committed to two ambulances through STARS or at least one for sure. I know there was talk of a second one. But how does that relationship work ? I'm–from the sounds of it, it sounds like, you know, the government utilizes the services of a company that has the helicopters and the pilots and whatever el se, and then they work here. Or do they fly here and spend time here and go back to Alberta? Like, how does it actually work in practice? Ms. Oswald: So the STARS organization is, of course, a not-for-profit organization; the member is quite right.

They have a board of directors, they have a foundation that is connected to them and, yes, indeed, they have a contract with Alberta Health Services and, from what I understand, in Saskatchewan, in speaking with Minister McMorris and others, it appears that Regina–or that Saskatchewan will follow a similar path in having the structure, the not-for-profit organization come in with a foundation and contract with Saskatchewan health providers. I believe, in Alberta, they have three helicopters stationed, and Saskatchewan, I believe, has said that they will contemplate two, but phase in.

They'll start with one and then move to another. I think they'll start in Regina and then contemplate another in Saskatoon, if I'm not mistaken. And we, in our discussions with them, are looking very closely at a similar model, and have had some preliminary discussions with the government of Saskatchewan about what synergies might exist if

1780 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 we, for the purpose of air–helicopter, eliminated that border and worked together in sharing resources. Now, it is my understanding that STARS does provide staff. That's what they're doing for us right now, their staff that has been trained, their helicopter pilots that have been trained. But, certainly, our vision, in di scussions with our front- line providers and our medical experts would be to have Manitobans engage in the training and, over time, integrate into that workforce.

I know that we have a number of paramedics that are keenly interested in developing further training. In fact, some of them want to learn how to fly helicopters which, you know, I support. So we would really have a view to moving forward with integrating into the STARS staff and, you know, ultimately, having a Manitoba workforce in the future. So, it is a contract. When I spoke to Dr. Powell, the CEO and founder of STARS, he really emphasized that they, while being separate from the health system, have to be intimately integrated into the health structure.

In our case, it would be the Regional Health Authority, and with MTCC. And he has some good ideas on how to maintain themselves as a separate organization, but be, you know, very intimately interwoven into the provincial system. And we'll certainly be taking his advice. We also have had some preliminary discussions about Manitoba representation on their board if we were to engage with them, and they're very open to that. I think that's probably the case for Saskatchewan too, but I can' t say that as the absolute gospel.

So that's a rough overview of how STARS works and, you know, their success is really undisputed, I think, and it's a very, very attractive model for us to continue to pursue. That is a fact. Mrs. Driedger: Would there be any nursing staff involved in working on these helicopters, or is it just strictly paramedics? Ms. Oswald: Yes, to nurses. Sorry for omitting them on National Nursing Week. Sorry. Mrs. Driedger: So, just to be clear, you could have nurses and paramedics working together, or would it normally be one or the other, or a combination of? * (15:30) Ms. Oswald: I believe it's combinations.

Actually, I would want to confirm that for the member, but based on my discussions with the front-line providers and with our own Dr. Robertson, who has been on a number of these missions, actually, and provided extraordinary, you know, ICU-equivalent care, you know, right on the scene and in the helicopter, that as part of the triage process, I think they make some decisions about who goes up and who doesn't. But, again, I would want to confirm that for the member about what the routine complement that flies in Alberta is. I'm just not a hundred per cent sure about that nurse-paramedic complement. Mrs.

Driedger: Is there some contemplation as to putting a helipad at the Health Sciences Centre, and if so, how long would that take? Ms. Oswald: Yes, there is, and the timeline is something we're really looking at closely, amending, perhaps, an existing capital plan into a slightly different capital plan. And if we are able to fulfill our dream to just have STARS stay with us, we want that to be happening as swiftly as possible, but there's a lot of work that's going on right now to determine how swiftly and safely that could happen. Mrs.

Driedger: And would that capital plan that she's talking about be a facility that now has to be built for the children's MRI that has been reannounced about four or five times, and does that now need a new building with the prospect of a rooftop helipad? People are talking in the system, so there is some available information out there. Ms. Oswald: I would say it would be part of the discussion that's going on, and in all seriousness, there has not been a final landing on that as of yet, but the prospect of making a planned building taller is actively under discussion, yes. Mrs.

Driedger: Why wouldn't the government just buy their own helicopter and staff it and own it and run it? Ms. Oswald: Well, as I said earlier, that is really the other choice, right? Build our own, buy our own, build our own, run our own, which has a lot of merit, actually, and certainly there are people within the department and within Manitoba that would support that kind of plan. As we have worked now for a second time with STARS, the expertise that they bring to bear and the experience that they bring to bear is undeniable and it is compelling.

And looking at the landscape across the west, developing in such a way that there could be a synergy of Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba also

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1781 has an element of attractiveness to it as well. I understood, quite frankly, that BC was engaged for awhile, may have disengaged. Not a hundred per cent sure about that, but building on being able to share resources and expertise with a common organization has an attractive element to it as well. It won't be the deciding factor. We, you know, we don't want to be viewed as the spoilers if we should choose the other path, the one that the member raises in her question: buy our own, build our own, staff our own.

But it has been the subject of a lot of study and analysis from, I think, some of the best people Manitoba have to offer–the deputy minister included in that–a nd certainly we are going to be making these decisions in the coming days and we'll be able to do that with a view to doing the best possible job for Manitobans. But, again, I can't undervalue the systems, the training, the resources, the expertise and the opportunities that STARS brings to the table. It's certainly nothing to be trifled with, which is why we're looking at it so closely. Mrs.

Driedger: It would be much more expensive to buy, own, maintain, run one's own ambulance, would it not, versus getting into this deal with STARS? Ms. Oswald: I think that could be argued. Yes, I think the initial investments on either side will not be insignificant. And, to be frank, I don't think that an organization like STARS would engage with any province without having some assurances about ongoing support. And so it's–neither of them are coming for free, that's for sure.

But, of course, you know, with a view to being as responsible as we can with taxpayers' money, this is a very key part of our analysis, what will be the upfront cost and what in the long term is manageable for Manitobans. And so we've got people like Ms. Herd working like crazy on this very fact. Mrs. Driedger: So this is, in effect, a public-private partnership, is it not? Ms.

Oswald: I think, you know, our view of the arrangement as we go forward is really not different than the relationship that we have with many not-for-profit organizations, you know, the PCH arrangements that we have, Concordia Hospital, you know, any number of entities that exist. Certainly, we have due diligence to complete. There's no question about th at. There have been, you know, across the country, relationships that have been developed with the best of intentions over time that, you know, have not evolved into the promises that they said that they would.

And so we are very guarded about how we're going to invest public money. But our discussions with STARS and our negotiations, if you will, have really just taken the same path that we would see with these existing relationships with not-for-profits. So I think that's really how I would look at it. Mrs. Driedger: And the patients that STARS ambulance is now picking up in different places, do those people have to pay for any of their air ambulance ride? Ms. Oswald: No, they are not at present. Mrs.

Driedger: Would that change once we're past the flood and you actually have an air ambulance as we–now, you know, people have to take an ambulance in the city, for instance, and you get a bill for $500 the next day. Will we see an air ambulance bill, then, that the patient has to pay? * (15:40) Ms. Oswald: Certainly, those discussions are ongoing. We're looking at what models are being contemplated or have been contemplated and enacted in other jurisdictions. You're quite right that in this emergency situation these fees are not being administered to people in the same way that land ambulance would be.

Triage decisions are being made about when to send the 'copter and when not to send the copter by medical professionals. It's very possible that it would be parallel to how Lifeflight works in Manitoba where no fees are assigned, but as we go through the modelling of different financial costings of the programs, this very item is something that is under consideration right now, and a decision really hasn't been made on it. But, no, there haven't been charges to date. I realize this could evoke the potential debate about, you know, don't send an ambulance; send a helicopter; it's cheaper.

And, of course, that does, I suppose in a classroom setting, evoke an interesting debate and discussion, but operationally we know that we'll continue to count on the medical professionals to decide when the helicopter has to go, and how we determine any potential fee or non-fee with that is still under discussion.

1782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 There wouldn't ever be a fee contemplated that would cover the cost of what it would cost to run a helicopter. People would beg not to have the helicopter in that case, bu t these are all things that are still under discussion. Mrs. Driedger: So the minister sounds like she has no problem with a private business providing public health care, and it's not interfering with any of the principles of the Canada Health Act. Ms. Oswald: W e l l , w e k n o w t h a t w e a l r e a d y i n Manitoba have contracts with private facilities. We publicly fund them.

We have an arrangement, as the member well knows, with Maples Surgical Centre, with Western, and these arrangements are well established. They have been adding value to the system, and we don't dispute that, and, so, again, while there's a temptation, I think, to view us as ideologues, not by the member but perhaps her friends, we are not against looking at innovations in health care and looking at ways that we can make it work for Manitobans in the best way possible. Mrs.

Driedger: Well, I wasn't going to get into this discussion at this point, but we've sort of ended up here, so can the minister indicate how broadly her government uses these private clinics at Western and Maples? Are they significant contracts and what type of care are they provid ing and what type of services do they provide there? Ms. Oswald: And I would certainly not call these arrangements with Western Su rgical Centre or with the Maples insignificant. They're, you know, they're doing good work and they'r e receiving good money for the work that they're doing.

Of course, Western has been in existence, you know, since–I guess, they themselves have been in existence since 1985. They're–a contract commenced with them on the first of January in '99, and there has been work done in, you know, the areas: surgi cal procedures, cataract, vasectomy, plastics and the necessary anesthesia that goes with that. Again, it's not a small amount of money. We know that we monitor carefully the outcomes and the, you know, the numbers of surgeries that are being completed, you know, as are being contracted for–that was a bad sentence, but you know what I mean.

And the Maples Surgical Centre, of course, is providing a variety of surgeries as well. They engaged in a contract with us that had certain principles within it, not the least of which had to do with no poaching of staff from the public system, which has been a very important element. They've also worked into this framework the fact that they will be keenly involved in reducing wait-lists and times. They're, of course, required to follow patient safety standards and accountability mechanisms, and they agreed to the notion of being cost effective, financially accountable, transparent.

And, you know, we also know that our relationships with the number of privat e PCHs and labs exist and they're not secret. We have physician services provided, you know, predominately in the north with Amdocs. And, you know, while, unquestionably, our focus is on providing health care for Manitobans not based on their ability to pay but based on their need, we recognize that there are inn ovations that we can look at and we can test and we can measure and we can evaluate for value for money. And, to date, we have seen reasonably good performance across these areas and, in many cases, excellent performance.

And so, you know, we have continued in these relationships. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate what types of surgeries her government contracts with the Maples for? Ms. Oswald: Yes, I know that we have been in some recent discussions with the Maples, looking at surgeries that they're performing and with a view to expanding some of the services that they may be contracted to perform. So, with the member's permission, you know, we have pediatric and adult surgeries going on there. I can commit to come back tomorrow with the most up-to-date list of what has been captured in that contract.

I don't–I have skimpier notes here than I'd like. * (15:50) Mrs. Driedger: I would appreciate if the minister would bring that back tomorrow for The Maples, and then for Western, in terms of surgeries that might be done there as well, if she could provide a full list of the types of surgeries that are done there as well. Ms. Oswald: I don't think that will be an issue to bring back to the table tomorrow and I'll endeavour to do that. Mrs. Driedger: The minister has been actually quite complimentary and sounds open-minded to the fact that there has been some advantages to utilizing the services of private clinics.

That is a very big step away from a few years back, and I don't want to beat

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1783 a dead horse but if those fe elings are there, then why did the government feel they needed to buy the Pan Am Clinic and then pay for all the bricks and mortar there when obviously now th ey have been able to demonstrate and feel that with a good contract, with the right, you know, elements built into that contract, you can actually achieve a lot of efficiencies by utilizing private clinics? Ms.

Oswald: And, yes, I'm not going to dispute that within the context of the kind of cases that the private clinics take, they, you know, they're doing a good job, you know, for the most part, and that's not something that we can dispute. The issue of Pan Am, of course, was that there was a lot of work done, an analysis and a business case developed, and that business case said it was the right idea to buy the clinic. And so we–it was unique approach and, you know, it shows that we've always been open to the idea but not, you know, for holus-bolus privatization. And it isn't always terrific.

I mean there are still profit margins that need to be paid that don't need to be paid in a publicly funded system. You know, we've seen what can happen when there is unfettered development of private clinics. The worst of which, of course, is the creation of two lines for medically necessa ry procedures, and my view on that has never wavered. I believe that you should get your medical service in Canada based on how much you need the service, not because of the privilege of your birth.

We've seen, you know, studies that have been done in the past where–I think even by the Conservative government–that found that, you know, letting doctors work in a private system and in a public system actually drove some wait times up, and this would be the opposite of what's trying to be achieved. When we're trying to drive down wait-lists and wait times, creating a culture where health-care professionals become torn, and, you know, in the most sinister

interpretation, can be incented to have longer wait times in the public system so that people will turn to the private. It's not a great scenario. I think what we have endeavoured to do is strike a balance by acknowledging that their expertise–there is expertise in another milieu but crafting contracts that are publicly funded and that indeed adhere to the kinds of principles that I cited earlier that don't allow for the poaching to occur, that allow, in fact, experts to be brought into the province, net new professionals to be brought into the province.

And so I wouldn't, as the member has characterized, respectively I would say–I wouldn't say that I've had a grand conversion and have developed a deep-seated love for private health care. I would say that, if anything, I've become more steadfast in my view that you can innovate, you can build new partnerships while passionately protecting publicly funded health care. It's been my experience that people don't really look for that option, private health care, when wait times are down. So the challenge and the energy on our

part is working to drive down the wait times, not find new ways to expand private health care. And we can take the dialogue right out of the window when people have access to the service that they need, when they need it. We're not always getting that right, I will concede that point, and we've got a lot of work to do. We have had some very good success but one can never sleep on the issue of bringing down wait times, and really that's where I want to expend my energy.

So I don't want my praise for the outcomes and the output at Maples Surgical Centre to be confused with a passion for private health care, because nothing could be further from the truth. Mrs. Driedger: With all due respect to the minister, I did see the business case for the Pan Am Clinic, and there was nothing in any of that that would make me believe that there was a need to buy it. And, in fact, it was functioning very, very efficiently and I don't think the government needed to put their money into the bricks and mortar.

They could've continued on just that they–as they've been doing with Western or with the Maples and just had a contract. And I have always said–or any of us have always said, as we've been talking about, you know, having contracts with these clinics, yes, you have to, you know, make sure you've got a really good contract, and that's where you can control, you know, the parameters around which you enter into a contract with a private clinic, and it does work.

The minister herself is acknowledging that it can be done and, yes, you expect certain outcomes, you expect certain behaviour from them, and you can build all of that into a contract. So engaging with the private clinic, as long as it stays publicly funded, does work. And I'll ask the minister: Are there two lines–you know, she was talking two lines–are there two lines at the Maples or at the Western clinics?

1784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2011 Ms. Oswald: And, again, on the issue of Pan Am and whether or not the business case was compelling or not compelling, I guess that's what makes this interesting, right, is that there's going to be a difference of opinion and a difference of points of view. It was certainly the view of the government at the time and the minister of the day that the purchase of Pan Am was a good decision. I think they provide excellent service in the context that they currently exist.

I think that they have been a really important partner in moving forward with a variety of kinds of health care here in Manitoba, and I think we can be here, reasonable people, that reasonably disagree on whether or not the purchase of Pan Am was necessary, a good investment, a great idea but, you know, it really comes down to our differences in approaches. * (16:00) And in our contracting with private clinics, we certainly do look very closely at the landscape in Manitoba and with patient need.

And we look at the individual case that can be presented by the clinic and overlay that with where our current wait times are existing, how quickly the public system, you know, is able to deal with capacity and where we have to build that capacity in the short term, in the medium term. And, I mean, certainly the relationship with Western has been going on for a while now, but this is under constant review. If we can, within the context of the publicly funded system, amend protocols to provide care in the timeliest of fashion, then those relationships may not be needed.

But we are also pragmatic, and the patient needs to be at the forefront and ideology needs to take the second row. And we believe that if there's an opportunity to have a contract that is reasonable–and believe me, there have been discussions over time where there have been some real whoppers presented that we have respectfully declined–but when the contracts are reasonable an d we believe that there can be a real value added to throughput, we are open. We have shown that.

I just wanted to read into the record for the member Maples' services: pediatric dental; ear, nose and throat, adult and children; and plastics. And I think I need to–do I need to go back on Western still or did I do that list in its entirety? I think I did that list, didn't I? Just to double-check. Yes, various surgical procedures such as breast, cataract, vasectomy, plastic and the necessary anesthesia. Yes, I did say that before. Sorry about that. Mrs. Driedger: So, just so I'm clear, those two private clinics in the–with the types of surgeries that they're doing right now, they are providing insured services?

Ms. Oswald: The answer is yes, and they're–it's being publicly funded, yes. Mrs. Driedger: So can the minister tell us why the NDP have vilified my caucus and us when that is exactly what we have been promoting for the last decade, publicly funded private services? Why, when we are on the same page, why have the NDP torqued our position when all we have been saying is exactly what this government is doing, that there is a role for publicly funded care within a private clinic where you can have a good contract set up to deliver that service?

The minister is basically doing what we have been saying is a good thing to do because you do expand capacity in your system. You do it when you need it for patients, as we see Saskatchewan is doing that. They've moved very much into looking at using private clinics to bring down the waits. And the minister did say it is about what we need to do for patients. So I'm really curious. Fo r the last 10 years I've taken a real beating from some of her colleagues, sometimes in a not very nice way, when we are saying right now exactly the same darn thing. Can she please explain what's happened here? Ms.

Oswald: Well, I'll try, and I'll do it nicely. I think over time the debate on public-private has, indeed, been about points of view of the members opposite versus points of view of our caucus. And I think that, with great respect to the member, that your members have not said what you have described. They may have recently amended a view. I believe the member for Fort Whyte (Mr. McFadyen), in April of '06, we would give the right to purchase private services. The member for Tuxedo (Mrs. Stefanson), in '05, patients should be allowed to purchase MRI services.

We know that in the '90s, patients, I believe it was at Western, could pay to access services at the clinic and ostensibly jump the queue. And we have issues with that, and, you know, some of them are cranky and some of them are philosophical. The issue I think was always with the two lines, as I described. You know, certainly, the line in the public system was longer, the line in the private system was shorter, and if you had enough money or

May 10, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1785 a really great credit card, you got to go to the

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-5-43b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 5th hansardpdf 43b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a850f3dd3db1936ab24006932793c0bc56fb00b7

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