Manitoba Hansard — 9 April 1987 (Sitting 25, 33rd Legislature, 2nd Session)

33-2-25

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Third Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES ·and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 36 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna A. Phillips Speaker VOL. XXXV No. 25 - 1:30 p.m., THURSDAY, 9 APRIL, 1987. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Third Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ASHTON, Steve BAKER, Clarence BIRT, Charles T. BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARSTAIRS, Sharon CONNERY, Edward J. COWAN, Hon. Jay CUMMINGS, J. Glen DERKACH, Len DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent L. DOER, Hon. Gary DOLIN, Marty DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert DUCHARME, Gerry ENNS, Harry J. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. FILMON, Gary FINDLAY, Glen M. HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Hon. Harry M. HARAPIAK, Hon. Leonard E. HARPER, Hon. Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNA TS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton McCRAE, James C. MERCIER, Q.C., G.M.J. (Gerry) MITCHELSON, Bonnie NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte L. ORCHARD, Donald W. PANKRATZ, Helmut PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Hon. Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John ROCAN, C. Denis ROCH, Gilles (Gil) SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Q.C., Hon. Victor SCOTT, Don SMITH, Harvey SMITH, Hon. Muriel STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill WALDING, D. James WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Hon.

Judy CONSTITUENCY Thompson Lac du Bonnet Fort Garry Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli River Heights Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose Roblin-Russell St. Boniface Concordia Kildonan Arthur Emerson Riel Lakeside Charleswood Brandon East Tuxedo Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Swan River Rupertsland Logan Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson St. James Elm wood Morris Brandon West St. Norbert River East Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina La Verendrye Transcona Selkirk Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Springfield Burrows Ross mere lnkster Ellice Osborne Flin Flon Interlake St. Vital St.

Johns PARTY NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Thursday, 9 April, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Prese nting Rep orts by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTE RIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLI NG OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourabl e Mi nister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, Madam Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Ma nitoba Min eral Resource Ltd. for the year ending 1986. RETURN TO ORDER NO. 8 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co op Development. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, I'd like to table the Return to the Order of the House No. 8, on the motion of the Member for Portage la Prairie. MADA M SP EAKER: No tices of Mo tion Introduction of Bills . . . ORAL QUESTIONS MPIC - management review by Touche Ross MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for MP IC. I wonder if he can indicate whether or not the Ma nitoba Public In su rance Corporation or the go vernment has brought in the management consultants, Touche Ross or P.S.

Ross, to do a financial or management study of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mini ster responsible for MP IC. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'l l have to take that question as notice. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Minister indicating that he, as chairman of the board, is not aware whether or not Touche Ross or P.S. Ross are doing any studies at MP IC? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Madam Speaker, I know that at any given time there are any number of studies 810 being un de rtaken by va rious operations of the Corporation.

I will take that question as notice. I'l l provide that information as soon as I can get the full information requested. Springhill Farms - opportunity to be heard by MLB MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Labour.

In light of the fact that the labour climate at Springhill Farms in Neepawa is causing an increasing amount of concern in the hog industry in this province; in light of the fact that the concern amongst the labourers is beginning to create a situation that makes it very difficult for that plant to have an efficient start-up to take over in the production and processing of hogs that was rapidly approaching a turnover this week at that plant, would the Minister now intercede with the Labour Board, use his prerogative and have a vote so that we can eliminate the problems and the hard feelings that are arising between the two unions?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minis ter of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the honourable member should appreciate or should realize that labour relations in this province have done very well without politicians meddling in those labour relations.

Madam Speaker, if the honourable member wants to argue during the course of the review of Estimates of the Department of Labour that certain laws should be changed, make arguments, sugge st specific concerns, that is one thing, but to be involved in the 10 meetings and counsel workers and be involved in taking sides in labour relations issues does nothing to improve the labour relations climate iri th!S province. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, I have a second question to the Minister, a new question .. · Does the Minister realize the resources that would, be needed by this workers association to appeal the ruling of the Labour Board, resources that they don't have? When they are faced with the challenge from the UFCW that says we've got the resources, we'll fight you to the end, they need the Minister's assistance. Will he please step in? HON. A. MA CKLING: Madam Speaker, I am not aware of the resources of any particular party appearing before the Labour Board.

I do know that both parties, both the association and the union that appeared before the Labour Board, were represented by counsel. The Labour Board made its decision after hearing all of the facts, a board that is experienced and knowledgeable in these matters. I don't believe that the efforts of the

-- ·- Thursday, 9 April, 1987 honourable member and others who want to create an atmosphere of uncertainty and hostility in respect to labour relations in this province, I don't think that kind of activity should be supported at all. The Manitoba Labour Relations Act - refer to Industrial Relations Comm. MADAM SPEA KER: The Honourabl e Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, my question is directed to the Mi nister of Labour.

In view of the announcement yesterday that the workers at the Eaton's store in Brandon are moving to decertify the Ma nitoba Food and Commercial Workers Union there; in view of the fact that it was the first-contract legislation brought in by this government that created the confrontation at Eaton's in the first place, will the Minister refer the first-contract provisions of The Manitoba Labour Relations Act to the Industrial Relations Committee of this House for review by the members of this Ho use and for the hearing of presentations by interested parties? MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mi nister of Labour.

HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the honourable member will recall that I have indicated in response to his questions the history of the first-contract legislation and the results of that legislation, and they have been excep tionall y good. The honourable member will appreciate as well that he will have all sorts of opportunity during the course of the Estimates Review of my department to ask questions and to hear again a recital of the eminent success of that legislation in respect to labour relations in this province.

I think the honourable member will be pleased to have reconfirmed to him the success of that legislation in this province. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, if the Minister looks at the record, I think he'll be dismayed to find that first-contract legislation is resulting in the removal of unions from workplaces in this province. Minister of Labour - request for resignation of MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I have a new question for the First Minister.

Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the Min ister of Labour is a careless Minister, he's an uncaring Minister and certainly an incompetent Minister; in view of the Minister's failure to intervene in the interests of freedom of workers in this province, and the freedom to express their wishes and in the interest of democracy, and in the interest of preventing bullying by certain union personnel; in view of the Minister's failure to review The Manitoba Labour Relations Act for Charter compliance; in view of the Minister's failure to refer The Manitoba Labour Relations Act to the Indus trial Relations Committee of this House; in view of the Minister's failure generally to defend workers in this 811 province; and in view of his lack of understanding of the economic realities of this province, will the First Min ister remove the Mini ster of Labour from his Cabinet?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, probably when the Member for Brandon West decide s the appropriateness in his method of asking questions, I would attempt to answer. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West on a point of order. MR. J. McCRAE: Perhaps you can assist, Madam Speaker, and let the First Minister and myself know what it was about my question that was inappropriate. MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member does not have a point of order. The Honourable Minister can .i answer a question in any way he likes, as long as it's � within the rules as well.

The Honourable Member for Brandon West with a question. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I wouldn't stand and defend the Minister of Labour either. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, by his failure to answer, I can only assume that the First Minister supports the continuation. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Brandon West have a supplementary question? Please ask it. MR. J. McCRAE: Yes I have, Madam Speaker, and you'll hear it if you'll be patient. MADAM SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for Brandon West please retract that last statement? MR. J.

McCRAE: Madam Speaker, which statement? MADAM SPEAKER: The last statement giving instructions to the Chair, which is totally out of order. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I fail to recognize where I've given any instructions to the Chair but, if anything I have said has offended you, I'll be pleased to withdraw it. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West with a question. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister chose not to stand and defend the Minister of Labour today, honourable members can only assume that he favors the Minister of Labour continuing in office.

If the Minister feels that way so

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 strong ly, why then did the Mi nister accept the resignation in disgrace of the Mi nister of Labour, who was the Minister responsible for the MTX fiasco, and the loss of $27.4 million to the people of Manitoba? Winnipeg Tax Assessment - authority to set mill rates MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. The Honourable Member for Kildonan has the floor. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs.

In light of the comments of Councillor Ha rold Macdonald, who was suggesting the other day that the differential mill rate category, set up by this Legislature, has somehow created a situation where condominiums and co-ops that are owned have a higher rate than residential homeowners in the City of Winnipeg, is there anything in this legislation or anything that requires the city to set different rates for each of those eight categories, is there any directive on the part of the Mi nistry or of the province for the city to do that? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. G.

DOER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The eight categories - the two of which were added most recently - have been provided to provide the City of Winnipeg with the maximum flexibility to deal with the court-ordered reassessment. The condominium, owner-occupied cla ssified and the co-op owner occupied is a separate classification that will allow the city to set a differential mill rate, and therefore the same mill rate that's been established for single-family residences is available to city council to establish. In fact, Madam Speaker, I have discussed this as late as yesterday with some of the city politicians.

I know that their intent is to keep the portions of the tax share the same with each group, but certainly it was our intent to provide the flexibility to the city so � that they could indeed have the same mill rate as an , owner-occupied single-family home. MR. M. DOLIN: A supplementary. It is my understanding then that city Councillor Macdonald and his coll�agues had total and complete authority to set - and I'm asking. Do they have the power to set the rates to be equ ivalent to residential for co-ops and condominiums or is there some external authority that is forcing them to set differential rates? HON. G.

DOER: They have the full authority to do so, and just to ensure that there was no misunderstanding, because as a pro forma method of dealing with this unique problem, the court case, we did in fact inform the mayor and other officials yesterday, when we did see the numb ers this week, that we had no problem on a pro forma basis approving by Order-in-Council, su bject to the Cabine t approval, would be my recommendation, we would approve the same mill rate for the condominium classification as the single-family residences. 812 MR. M. DOLIN: Madam Speaker, a final supplementary.

Could the Minister take it upon himself to inform Councillor Macdonald and his colleagues that they should take responsibility for their own actions, and when they set rates,. that they should take responsibility for those rates. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. That question is not within the jurisdiction of the Minister. Winnipeg Tax Assessment - appeal of classification MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. A question following along the Member for Kildonan's questions to the Minister for Urban Affairs.

Could he explain why, because I've been informed by one of my constituents, one unit in a row housing of eight units owned and occupied by the owner is treated under his classification as an apartment and not a single-family home? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. G. DOER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Th ere have been a number of inappropriate classifications made which are appealable. In fact, Madam Speaker, we had a number of very good briefs that were presented to us in the last two days. Some of the briefs had some very important issues with us.

Many of them had some inappropriate classifications and inappropriate unde rstandings of what those classifications were, and we tried to follow up every indi vidual case if th ere was an inappropriate classification, because it is appealable. Manfor Ltd.- loss for year MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Minister responsible for Manfor forest products. The last report which we have seen from the Manfor operation showed a loss of in excess of $30 million. What is the loss for the past year of Manfor Forest Products?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister responsible for Ma nfor. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The member is referring to the 1985 Annual Report. The 1986 Annual Report will be available for the House within the next few weeks. I can indicate to the member that the anticipated loss as reported in the committee last May or June was to be approximately $5 million, and I can indicate that we have done subs tantially better than that and will be reporting the facts to the House in due course.

• - Thursday, 9 April, 1987 Manfor Ltd. interest in purchasing MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, a further question to the Minister responsible for Manf or. Has the Minister proceeded to accept or receive or has he negotiated any sale of Manfor Forest Products? Has he any report to make on that, Madam Speaker? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Madam Speaker, I can report that a number of companies have indicated an interest in pursuing discussions with respect to Manfor, and those will be proceeding. MR. J.

DOWNEY: When, Madam Speaker, will the Minister be informing the House as to the finalization of the agreements or the proposals that have been made to the province as far as Manfor is concerned on the sale of it? HON. J. STORIE: In due course. Virden - landfill site - retesting MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Environment with regard to the problem of the potential landfill site at Virden.

When I asked the question on a similar matter on Tuesday, the Minister replied that his department had made retests of the proposed site in order to allay the fears of the residents, and he replied that the retests have been done in response to these objections and the results had been forwarded. But my information, Madam Speaker, from local representatives is that they have not been reinformed and, as far as they know, only one test has been made. Can the Minister clear up the confusion here and tell us today, in the House, exactly when the retesting was performed?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The last of these inspections, the member perhaps is referring in some cases to tests and in other cases to inspections. There have not been tests lately but there have been reinspections, the last of which was on April 1. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker, with a supplementary question to the same Minister. Would the Minister explain why, on Tuesday, he said that retesting has in fact been done when today he says that there has been no retesting? HON. G.

LECUYER: It is correct to say that there were more than one series of tests done, Madam Speaker, some done by our department, some done by the municipality and some done by independent engineering 813 firms. If I gave the understanding the other day that there were retests done lately, then that certainly was not my intention and perhaps I misunderstood the question. There were no retests done lately. Madam Speaker, I want it to be clear that the matter of determining where a landfill site is located is a matter which falls under the jurisdiction of the municipality or the town.

It does not come under the jurisdiction of our department. When the town or municipality chooses a site we, as a department, will analyze the tests that have been carried out. We'll inspect the site, and determine whether it compl ies to envi ronmenta l requirements. Ob viously , Ma dam Speak er, within any given municipality, a number of sites could be chosen that would be appropriate. Now in any one of those sites, it may be accept able to some citi zens and not acceptable to others, but it is not for my department to make that decision. Virden - landfill site - tabling of correspondence MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: A final supplementary to the same Minister. Would the Minister please table any correspondence that he has had with the Town of Virden with regard to the testing of this site or the inspection of this site, so that information can be in fact shared with the environmental groups concerned? HON. G. LECUYER: Madam Speaker, I have here a set of all the correspondence that I'v e had with the individuals of the Town of Virden. I am prepared to table any of this correspondence as soon as I have copies available. Farmers - fuel prices MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G.

FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. • At the farm gate, fuel prices for the past year in , Alberta have been around about 12 cents a litre, in Saskatchewan 19 cents a litre, and Manitoba farmers at the farm gate are paying around 25 cents a litre. This puts Manitoba farmers at a serious competitive disadvantage to their neighbours in the western two provinces. I would like the Minister of Agriculture to tell us what he plans to do to put Manitoba farmers on a level playing field with their neighbours to the west. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Agriculture.

HON. B. URUSKI: Ma dam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for the question, and I know that he agrees that all farmers of Canada are paying for those subsidies, even farmers of Manitoba. Farmers right across this country are paying for those additional subsidies. Madam Speaker, we have continually believed, and have in fact opened the borders to U.S. competition,

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 that farm fuel prices in this province were far too high, in fact not only farm fuel prices but also consumer prices. It took a threat of the Premier of this province for the oil companies to lower their prices by 9 cents a litre, Madam Speaker, and that was accomplished. Madam Speaker, we have already announced that we will open the borders to fuels coming into this province. If the honourable member recalls, farmers in this province who use fuels for the production of food do not pay any provincial taxes.

Madam Speaker, for a number of years, the industry basically ate up that benefit and farmers were not provided that benefit. It took action of this government to allow the importation of fuels to lower those fuel prices so that farmers could in fact have the most competitive market and fuel prices in Canada. MR. G. FINDLAY: A U.S. congressional committee has recently approved or proposed legislation that would restrict the export of petroleum products from the United States into places like Manitoba.

Will the Minister tell us if this will make it impossible for Manitoba farmers to import fuel from the United States or make it more costly? MADAM SPEAKER: Could the honourable member rephrase his question so it doesn't seek an opinion? MR. G. FINDLA Y: Will the Mi nister investigate or tell this House if he has investigated to determine the impact on Manitoba farmers of this U.S. con gressional committee recommendation. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I'm surprised at the honourable members opposite who are advocating the kind of free trade that the Mulroney Government is supporting and pushing, that they would in fact raise those kinds of concerns when their colleagues are trying to convince Canadians that free trade is good for all us, when all of us know the protectionist sentiments in the U.S. I want to investigate those moves to find whether or not in fact they are true, as the honourable member alleges, and when I have those facts I will bring them to the House. MR. G.

FINDLA Y: Madam Speaker, seeding is very close at hand and they need the lower fuel prices. If dying at the border stations will help those lower prices, will the Minister investigate and report back to this House within two weeks? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I am going on the assumption that there is no change in the conditions that we had last fall and, unless 'there are any changes that I am not aware of at this moment, I will be very pleased to bring the information as soon as possible. AIDS - availability of O/C MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is for the Mi nister of Health. 814 Yesterday apparently the government passed an Order-in-Council making AIDS a reportable disease. I wonder if the Minister, since we'll be in Estimates this afternoon dealing with communicable diseases, could make available to myself and members of the committee that Order-in-Council by which government made AIDS a reportable disease. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourabl e Mini ster of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I welcome this question. Give me a chance to straighten it out.

I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding, and I must accept the responsibility for part of it. The question was asked of me when we would bring the proper regulation or changes or Order-in-Council, and I said that this would be done within a month or so. I also reported the same thing during a press interview I had yesterday, thinking that we would be in committee yesterday and I would have made this announcement there. Later on I gave the information that, when I was asked where it was, the Order-in Council had passed the Cabinet yesterday. It was brought in a week earlier.

Now, I want to make sure that we understand that it is not a reportable disease at this time. This has to be gazetted and it has to be tabled with the Registrar, so I still say it should be within a month or so, but it could take a couple of weeks. I want to make sure that at this time that it isn't - and if that paper, an Order in-C ounci l, is pu blic informa tion, as far as I'm concerned, I don't know when they release it. We can try and find out if it's released or not. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, the Minister stimulated a second question in his answer.

Did I hear from the Minister's answer that the Order in-Council dealing with AIDS, in whatever manner the government dealt with it, was passed last week and not this week? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, fine, that's what I thought you said. So, Madam Speaker, what we're interested in, since we're in that line, is if the Minister could have the Order-in-Council so we can see exactly what the government has proposed in time for a debate this afternoon, whilst we're on that line in Estimates, if that's possible. HON. L. DESJARDINS: If at all possible, I'll get it.

My intention was to arrange a meeting with all the MLA's, with the proper staff also, to explain exactly where we were. We can still do that, but I' ll try to get the O/C for today. Crown oil leases - results of sale MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines.

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 Yesterday was the day that the Crown oil leases were sold. Could the Minister give us any information as to results of the sales? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Energy and Mines. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. W. PARASIUK: I have a little bit of a cheering audience on the other side. Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to inform honourable members that the results of the Crown oil leases sale which were held yesterday are in, and they indicate that the petroleum industry is increasing its interest tremendously in exploring for oil in the Province of Manitoba.

The public sale by sealed tenders resulted in all 22 leases, which were offered for sale, being sold and the leases covered a total of 2,016 hectares and generated some $232,000 in total revenue for the province. MR. J. MALOWAY: Madam Speaker, a supplementary to the same Minister. Were the prices higher or lower than in previous years? HON. W. PARASIUK: Madam Speaker, I'm pleased to inform the members of the House, through you, that the average price was some 102 percent higher for the sale this year than it was for the sale last fall, and I think that's very significant.

Independent school children - increase in school grant MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I see that the Ministers of the Crown are now afraid to make ministerial statements in this House. My question is to the Mi nister of Education, Ma dam Speaker. On March 10 of this year, the Minister met with representatives of the Manitoba Federation of Independent Schools. I would just like to ask the Minister if it's still the policy to grant the similar increase per student to independent school children?

Do they get the same increase per student as the public school students get? This has been the policy in the past for the last two or three years. Is it the present policy of the government that gave a similar increase to the students for independent schools for this year? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mi nister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Madam Speaker, I did meet with the Federation of Independent Schools and indicate that the policy would be continuing. MR. C.

BIRT: Madam Speaker, at that meeting, did the Min ister advise those in attendance that, if he had his way, he personally would discontinue all support to independent schools? 815 MADAM SPEAKER: It's the duty of the honourable member to ascertain the truth of statements he brings before the House. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: The question to the Minister is: Can he confirm or at least did he make a public statement to the effect that, if he had his way, he would discontinue all funding to independent schools? MADAM SPEAKER: That question seeks a personal opinion.

The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Madam Speaker, the Minister made a public statement. I'm asking him if he'd care to repeat that in the House. Did he make that statement to the representatives of the independent schools? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I have indicated to the Federation of Independent Schools that the provincial policy, the government policy on funding to independent private schools will be continuing, as it has in the past, and has followed the tradition in Manitoba since 1966 and subs equently.

I have said publicly on many occasions that I am a strong supporter of the public school system, but recognize that we have a historical and a traditional obligation and responsibility to independent schools. As a government, I think we have maintained that and, as a member of the government, I have indicated that we will be continuing that into the future. Minister of Education - request for resignation MR. C.

BIRT: Madam Speaker, if the Minister feels strong enough about his personal position to make it public that he is not prepared, if he had his way, to continue funding to independent schools and if this is contrary to the policy of the government, why doesn't he resign his position as Minister of Education? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I don't know how � deeply we want to go into what was a conversation between myself and the Ma nitoba Federat ion of Independent Schools.

I do want to indicate that the specific reference that the Mem ber for Fort Garry has given is not quite accurate, and I'd be more than happy to discuss my personal views on the development and the relationship between the independent schools and the public school system with the Member for Fort Garry at any time. MTS - transfer of outstanding debt MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH : Thank you, Ma dam Speaker . My question is to the Minister responsible for MTS. I'd like to know, is it the policy of MTS to penalize relatives of customers who do not pay their bills?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister responsible for the MTS.

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 HON. G. DOER: Yes, Madam Speaker, I will inquire on the policy. I understand that there have been instances where two individuals of the same family have lived at the same residence and had a large deficit built up with the phone company and then, when the phone is cut off, it is transferred to another individual. I know that the Board of the Telephone System has asked for an

interpretation from the Human Rights Commission, and I understand there's a situation in the member's constituency on that which they are investigating in lieu of the human rights considerations, and in lieu of the outstanding bill considerations. I hope the Telephone System can resolve it. MTS - rural services, rates MR. G. ROCH: A new question to the same Minister.

Given the fact that MTS is charging different rates for both construction and provisioning charges when people convert from party to private lines, even though they're all in the same area - rates that are quoted vary as much as from $2 to $400.00 - why are conversion charges not uniform, especially when people live less than one mile from each other? Will the Minister see to it that they can in the future? HON. G. DOER: I can look at the specifics in terms of the question.

I should point out, Madam Speaker, that two studies, one independent run by the federal CRTC, have shown that the Manitoba Telephone System has the lowest rates in Canada. I was doing some studying the other day, just to see what a five-mile comparison was between intra in Saskatchewan versus Manitoba, Madam Speaker. I found that a 10-mile, five-minute conversation in Manitoba is 51 cents and proposed to go to 62 cents

whereas, in the Conservative Province of Saskatchewan, it's 70 percent higher for the same call. MTS - Winnipeg telephone service MR. G. ROCH: A new question to the same Min ister. Could the Minister then explain why some people who are moving to a Winnipeg exchange area, who were told originally by MTS officials that they were entitled to have Winnipeg telephone service, and now are told all of a sudden they'll have to get onto the FX service? HON. G. DOER: I think that's a very good question. In fact, I've looked over a situation in the member's constituenc y.

The letter was written by the former Mi nister of Telephone Systems, Mr. Ed McGill, but I will look at the specific situation. MR. G. ROCH: One final question to the Minister. If I provide the Minister with the specifics of all of these cases, would he undertake to remedy the situation as soon as possible, given the urgency and the necessity in some of these cases? I'd like to point out that I've discussed these matters with MTS officials well over a month ago, and on th ree separate occasions, these same officials have said they would get back to me in writing and I'm still waiting. 816 HON. G.

DOER: I will inquire on the issues raised by the member opposite. There are a number of excellent presentations now before the Public Utilities Board on this whole issue. I have met with a number of groups from the areas ringing the City of Winnipeg that are outside of Winnipeg exchanges. I will concur that there are a number of anomalies in the situation. I'm trying to get a handle on some of those situations, Madam Speaker. Secondly, we will be having a very extensive rural consultation with the Minister of Municipal Affairs. There are significant issues that must be resolved, Madam Speaker.

I mentioned yesterday the extended area zones, too many multi-party lines in rural Manitoba, the groups outside of Winnipeg. There are some anomalies between them, and I'm prepared to look at any specifics the member may have. The Water Rights Act - cost of drainage licence MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Natural Resources. Since this government took power in 19 81, there has been a 103 percent increase in revenues in that department and only a 16 percent increase in expenditures.

This government proclaimed The Water Rights Act in December, which makes provision for a farmer having to be licensed to undertake drainage on his own land. Could this Minister indicate how much money it's going to cost a farmer to apply for a licence to drain his own land? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

It is correct that we will be asking people to apply for a licence to drain their properties, because those drainages in the past, when they have been done in an indiscriminate manner, have resulted in considerable problems for those who live downstream. If there is concern about the cost, as there well should be, the fee I believe is $25 and the licence would be valid for 20 years, so it would be approximately $1. 25 per year. The Water Rights Act - time frame to process licence MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, to the same M inister.

Could the Minister indicate how much time it will take from the time that a farmer makes an application to the bu reaucracy for a licence until the time he will be able to obtain a licence to undertake drainage works on his farm? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Ma dam Speaker, the time required would of course vary with the nature of the drainage project which was being proposed. Those which were very straighforward, I'm sure, would be

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 approved in a very forthright manner, but those that would require more intensive investigations, perhaps engineering, the time would be required to provide that information. But we would want people to know that we would deal with these in as quick a manner as possible. The Water Rights Act - additional staff required MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final supplementary, Madam Speaker, to the same Minister. Can the Minister indicate how much additional staff will be hired to accommodate the numerous requests that will be forwarded by municipalities and by farmers? HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Ma dam Speak er, I' ve been advised by the department that we, at this time, should be able to accommodate those requests within the existing staff complement. But I want to assure the members of this House and the public generally that if there are a number of requests that come forward and, if indeed, we do have to hire some additional staff to deal with these requests, this would still be a responsible approach rather than to allow indiscriminate drainage and erosion of soils and infill of existing drains. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker. I move, seconded by the Min ister of Health, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to He r Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture, and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of Health.

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister announced just briefly a few minutes ago in the House that, in fact, an Order-in-Council had been passed with regard to the reporting of the disease of AIDS. Can he in fact tell us now if it will also be compulsory for the individual who has acquired AIDS to divulge his contacts to the Department of Health? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. 817 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, if I may, I'd like to propose to the committee, we have some copies of the Order-in-Council as was requested, and we have Dr. Fast here, who is responsible for this program. There might have been a bit of confusion, so not to add any more to the confusion, I would like Dr. Fast to give a general explanation of what we're trying to do, what that will mean, and then be able to accept your questions on this, if that's acceptable. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Go ahead, Dr. Fast. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I realize this is probably going to be a detailed explanation, but would it be permissible to ask questions of clarification, meaning and all, like if we miss something, so we don't have to go back over it all? MR. CHAIRMAN: During the presentation, you'd like to ask her? MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, during the presentation. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Just for clarifica tion - absolutely. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, proceed. DR. M. FAST: Am I to respond to your specific questions? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, what I would like you to do, Dr.

Fast, is give a bit of explanation of why we seek this Order-in-Council, what it will do, and maybe when you expect that it will become law. Also no doubt, you'll be asked questions, and can you answer the questions to the best of your ability? Thank you. DR. M. FAST: We've been dealing with the issue of AIDS and AIDS virus infection for several years now, and it became apparent that there were two major issues that we had to contend with.

One was to in fact make this disease legally reportable and the other was to try and develop some system whereby contacts of people who were infected would also be informed of their infection and be giv en appropriate counselling as to what that meant for them.

Because AIDS was an infection which is somewhat different from other sexually transmitted diseases, we felt that it was going to be necessary for us to in fact look at all of the regul ations, formally called VD regulations, venereal disease regulations, now called sexually transmitted disease regulations so that we revised that whole set of regulations for sexua lly transmitted diseases and added to the previous list of sexually transmitted diseases, STD'S, two new diseases, AIDS and chlamydia.

Chlamydia, I can perhaps deal with fairly briefly, because it is handled in the regulations in the same way as the old STD's. There's nothing unusual in the way it's going to be managed. However, with AIDS and AIDS virus infection, it's rather unusual in fact to make a disease notifiable if you have no intervention, no

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 control program, and control usually has an element of treatment in it for a disease. We don't do that for many diseases, but for AIDS, because it has so many implications, most provinces and now Manitoba felt that we should make it notifiable, but you can't deal with it in quite the same manner you do other sexually transmitted diseases. For that reason, AID S is now notifiable. Every physician who diagnoses a case of AIDS is legally required to notify us in the way they do with any other notifiable disease. We will have the patient's name.

We will have other usual identifying information. For persons who have the AIDS virus infection, but who do not have AIDS, laboratories who make that diagnosis are required to inform us that they have diagnosed an AIDS virus infection in an individual. We will not know that individual's name, nor does the lab. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Excuse me, Dr. Fast. You're talking now about carriers as opposed to . . . DR. M. FAST: And perhaps should I just call them carriers? -(Interjection)- All right. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, you're saying that people who have displayed the AIDS as an illness, in other words, they're physically sick as a result of the AIDS virus and are requiring medical attention, they're going to be reported by name? DR. M. FAST: Yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: The next category are the ones whose blood tests have revealed that they are positive for the antibodies which indicate infection by the AIDS virus. DR. M. FAST: That's quite correct, yes. � MR. D. ORCHARD: And we're going to call them carriers? DR. M.

FAST: We'll call them carriers.- (l nterjection) Yes, that's right, and all of these people, from a point of view of control - this is important - are equally infectious. All of them, whether they're carriers or whether they have AIDS, can spread the virus to other people. So in that sense, they're no different. Now the people then who are carriers we will know about only by code, and we will know who their physicians are, but physicians will not report those carriers, the lab will.

Now, for all of these people, both the people who have AIDS and the people who are carriers, we feel that it is important both for their sake and for the sake of the public health that contacts of those persons be informed of their risk. We are right now trying to work out a mechanism whereby contacts - and these are contacts who are sex contacts or who are needle sharing contacts - will be informed that they are at risk.

That program though is not mandatory. 818 It is not mandatory in any jurisdiction that I'm aware of, but we are hoping that with the cooperation of the communities who are at greatest risk, largely, the Gay community and, to some extent, the IV drug-abusing community, if can get their cooperation, we will in fact be able to set up some mechanism whereby we can notify contacts. We're actually not calling it contact notification; we're calling it partner education. So you may hear that term. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Memb er for Kildonan. MR. M.

DOLIN: Is there any way in any jurisdiction that's been found to enforce through any kind of mandatory requirement carriers of AIDS or STD or what-have-you to report their contacts? I mean, is there any workable way of enforcing that? DR. M. FAST: Well, there isn't really, even for diseases like gonorrhea and syphilis where it's mandatory for cases to give us the names of their contacts. In fact, we still rely on their good will to give us their information. You cannot, in a society that I think is cognizant of people's rights, force them to divulge information that they're not prepared to divulge.

So I think the answer to your question is no. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Again for clarification. If an individual has AIDS, then the physician is required to report that. DR. M. FAST: Yes. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: If an individual is a carrier, that will only be reported by code through the testing agency, whatever that is, so that there will be some partner education of those who have AIDS but no partner education for those who are carriers of AIDS? DR. M. FAST: We feel that it's going to be probably more important to provide partner education for the people who are carriers.

The system though is going to be more difficult because we have to work around that code, but I don't think it's insurmountable. They need partner education as well, but the mechanics have yet to be worked out. MR. CHAIRMAN: I have difficulty in knowing what's clarification and what is really new grounds. I had hoped you'd try to stick to the idea of clarification only. The Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: I'l l pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Dr. Fast, do you want to continue? DR. M.

FAST: Yes, I just wanted to add as well that, in our AIDS Control Program, the issue of partner notification and dealing with individuals is one part of that program but an equally, if not more, important part of the program is education of the general public.

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 This educ ation of the gene ral pu blic includ es the "general" general public. It includes providing education for the school-age population. MR. M. DOLIN: Just to clarify, is the purpose of the reporting program to provide information to the person who has the disease or is a carrier, or is it to be able to obtain contacts, or both. I mean, what is the actual purpose of reporting? DR. M. FAST: There are two primary purposes for reporting any disease. One is to gather statistical information and the other is to institute a control program.

Only if you know numb ers will you know if your control program is making any difference. So there are always two purposes. If I could carry on then with the general education, there is then the sort of general public, the school-age population. It's also going to be very important for us to continue to provide or to help the Gay commun ity provide education for their commun ity. We need to try and find some way to provide education to the IV drug abusing commu nity, and that is very difficult.

We have already begun, and will have to continue just to provide education for the medical profession, as well, medical nursing, that whole paramedical profession. That is going to be a major component of the control program, as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can we return to questions now? MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you done, Dr. Fast? DR. M. FAST: Yes, unless there's ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other clarification questions and then we can get into general questioning? Okay, into general questioning. The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I would like to ask the Min ister, Mr.

Chairman, how he believes that partner education can be conduc ted with AIDS carriers if, in fact, there will be no notification to the de partment of the individuals who are carriers? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Dr. Fast can correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is that those that have AIDS will be reported by name. They will be contacted by every method or something, and we'll try to get to the people who might have had contact with them. Either voluntarily they give us their names, or maybe give them some information that they might want to pass on to these people who have the contacts at this time.

That's why we feel that it has to be good will. There's no way you can force that, and it's so important for the general education of the kids at school, of the people who might be of a high-risk group, and the general population because there is so much information that is misleading, and that tends to panic the public. I think that's what we're trying to do now, you know. I think the main thing would be th at kind of a gener al information. 819 MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: I don't have any difficulty with the fact that you are not compelling people to give contacts, because I do realize that with other diseases they will or they will not, and there is nothing you can do. If they've had 20 partners and they've only identified 10, you 're not going to find out the other 10 anyway. So that part does not concen me.

What does concern me, however, is that you have AIDS carriers who are identified by medical testing and who are just as potentially capable of spreading that AIDS virus as is the AIDS victim, but you don't have tho se names and you don't have the option of contacting them and giving them the option of giving you their partners. Now, I want to know how you're going to deal with that? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Dr. Fast might want to add to this, but my understanding, again, is that the doctors have to name those people, and we are working with the doctors.

Also, we feel that they would deal with their patients also and do the same thing that we would do with those who have AIDS. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: So part of your . HON. L. DESJARDINS: You see, they are identified by some people. We don't have the names, but we have all the information and there are code numbers, which I don't think too many provinces have, and the doctors - and correct me if I'm wrong - and the doctors, of course, can identify these people. They are their people, and the information - maybe you can elaborate on that, Dr. Fast.

We've already worked with the medica l profession in sending kits and that kind of thing. MRS. S. CARS TAIRS: So then, therefore, the department will be encouraging doctors to obviously: No. 1, make their patient aware that they are indeed an AIDS carrier; No. 2, encouraging that individual to act in a responsible fashion and to con tact the indi vidua ls with whom th ey have had a sexual relationship or any relationship that they feel may be possible of spreading the disease, and in actually encouraging a doctor-patient relationship in order to spread and disseminate information. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: You see the concern that we seem to have, Mr. Chairman, that our experts have and the people who are working in that. You need the cooperation of these people. The minute - if you go, just those who might have the virus and can carry the virus, and that is increasing all the time, you would have to have a list. They're so afraid of being on the list because they lose their job, because they lose their friends. That could change. I think we want some flexi bility as we learn more about it.

But it was felt and the advice that I get is that we will get better cooperation working that way than trying to force it. It makes sense what you'r e saying. These people, you identify them but, if you identified everybody by name, you would need a list, and these people would be afraid and they wouldn't come forward as much as if they know that they can get the same service and so on. It's not going to cost anything, and also they won't be identified.

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 You have hospitals, you have school boards, you have all kinds of things that scares them, and they could be on there for a long time. Up to about 35 percent now, and that changes nearly every day, can contact AIDS. Eventually, it might be all of them within a 5- 10 - that's what scares us, the future from what we feel. But in the meantime, they could still work and so on, and they are afraid. They won't identify themselves. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I'd like to clarify some issues that were raised on Tuesday with regard to the irresponsibility of the Gay commu nity and those at risk.

It's my understanding that, in fact, they have been very responsible with regard to their dealings, in terms of encouraging testing and in terms of encouraging contact notification, in terms of encouraging responsible sex following the identification of themselves as either carriers or indeed AIDS victims. Can the Minister indicate if that has been the feeling of the department with regard to the Gay community? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, that's what I stated on Tuesday, because I think it's some thing to blame someb ody, fine. They are a group who are at high risk, but what I heard - and again Dr.

Fast might want to add and give us details of the kind of cooperation, but I'm told that they've been very, very cooperative and so on. The y'r e qui te concerned, ob viously. I read somewhere where they felt we should spend millions of dollars on education, on educating and so on. They might push us even more - that's possible - but maybe Dr. Fast might want to give us the kind of relationship that we've had with the Gay community and their cooperation and their concern maybe. DR. M. FAST: Yes, I would certainly agree with that.

We've had a lot of discussions over the past several years with representatives of the Gay commun ity and they do have a lot of concerns, as Mr. Desjardins indicated, about lists, about governments having access to information about them. But on the whole, they are very concerned about this infection and are willing to cooperate to the extent that we're willing to cooperate. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Taking a specific look now at some of the SY's and the expenditur es of the department, it's my understanding that Dr.

Fast is in fact the only managerial person in this budget, although there is a budget for a second person. Is there any intention in this fiscal year of hiring that second person to aid Dr. Fast's function? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The information that I get is that we're near bulletining for a nurse who would assist. That would be a managerial position also. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In the additional SY's which have been added for the AIDS program specifically, when is it anticipated that those two people will indeed be on staff? HON. L. DESJA RDINS: This is new.

Until this is approved, we haven't got the position and so on. Dr. 820 Fast informs me that, as soon as she's formally notified that they have the position, she would try to hire those people, recruit those people as soon as possible. MRS. S. CARSTAI RS: In the original presentation, Mr. Chairman, Dr. Fast made, as did the Minister, some reference to the need of education of the general public and indeed particularly of the school age program. I think certainly the Mi nister is aware that, while there is a

section in the Family Life curriculum on AIDS education, it is not a compulsory program and there are very few school divisions that have in fact adopted the program to date. Is there any intention on the part of the Ministry to encourage the Minister of Education to make an AIDS program compulsory, particularly at the high school level? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The Minister of Education has informed me today - and we've been working and staff have been working on the same committee under Dr. Fast. The Minister of Education who is here might want to answer this. I think he's answered some questions yesterday.

He's informed me again that we must accept this change and we should meet. We've agreed to meet again on that. I don't know if the Minister would want to ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I have said, I think in response to questions from the Member for River Heights, th at the de partment has begun its own assessment and development of improved curriculum material for both the Family Life Program and the regular Health Program in Grade 7 and 9. Staff are als o dev eloping material in conjunc tion with the Department of Health, or will be, for the high school level.

Whether in fact it will be compulsory or how it will be delivered has yet to be decided, but I think there's agreement that kind of information needs to be presented to high school students. I have also met with the Manitoba Teachers' Society as late as this morning to discuss the issue and have been assured, both by them and by MAST, of their cooperation and their understanding of the seriousness of this matter. So I expect to be able to announce before this fall the steps that will be taken to ensure that there is appropriate material available for appropriately aged students in our schools as of this fall. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I notice that there is a major inc rease in the commu nications part of the Communicable Disease Control budget from some $49,000 to $98,000.00. There is a note that some of that - or excuse me, there isn't a note. I would assume that some of that money will be, in fact, going into an AIDS Education Program. I have to express some concern that I wonder if it is, quite frankly, adequate enough, because $42,400 quite frankly won't buy you much of an advertising campaign, certainly not much

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 of a media campaign in terms of TV, radio advertising or even the dissemination of pamphlet materials. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That might be. I don't think I'd be one, Mr. Chairman, to argue that we have too much money or enough money under the situation with the restraint and the increase that we have. But I should add that we've been working, as I said before, quite clo sely with the other provinces and the Federal Government. The Federal Government is also involved in that program, and we're kind of piggybacking with the Federal Government, if I can use that expression, to work together.

MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister tell me if there is any specific AIDS research going on in the Province of Manitoba which is funded by the Department of Health? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, there's not research as such funded by the department. I know that, with the Federal Government and a pharmaceutical company, they have some drugs. It's used as research now in all provinces, and we have some people who are receiving that, and it's being monitored by the drug com pany and the Federal Go vernment and it's sponsored by the Federal Government.

It's something that I don't think anybody would advocate, I'm sure, that we reinvent the wheel at every province and so on. But there is an interprovincial committee that is meeting regularly and that is getting the information wherever they come from, be it from Canada, of course, or the United States or France or anywhere. MRS. S. CAR STAIRS: I'm sure the Minister is aware that the commu nity most affected by AIDS is very distressed at the fact that there are certain drugs which are not available to them in Canada, which they feel may be of value to them.

There is a recognition on their part that they are not proven drugs and that they may or may not affect their health, although there seems to be some evidence in the United States that they are indeed enhancing their health, although not curing the disease. Has the Mi nister had any discussions with regard to the Federal Minister of Health about making these medications more accessible?

Where I'm coming from in this situation is that, if we have a disease which is a killer disease and if in fact the disease can be relieved in some fashion by this drug, even if it is only a psychological relief for the person involved, should we be so worried about the normal controls that one places on drugs when we know this individual is going to die anyway? I mean, I know we don't want to use treatment on individuals - and everyone remembers the horrors of the thalidomide case - that might prove to be disastrous down the line, but we are in fact dealing with people who are dying.

Have there been any discussions at the provincial-federal level about making these drugs more accessible? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, there have been at the ministerial meetings that we've had, where the Federal Government explained their position the best they could. It doesn't mean that everybody agreed with them, but 821 the responsibility is there of course. They've had those advising them - what is that comm ittee called that is responsible for - well there's a committee anyway, wh atever you call it, on drugs th at have th at responsibility. I guess they've had some concern.

I don't know if that's going to happen, but some of the provinces anyway expressed the same concern that you did. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: My final questions have to do with regard to the compulsory testing for AIDS in the case of people applying for a marriage licence. I think that the statistics would show us today that the vast majority of individuals who are seeking marriage licences have, in fact, already had a relatively active sexual life, particularly with that individual with whom they are contemplating marriage.

I would just like to put it on the record that I find that type of desire for compulsory testing would be ineffectual, particularly because the test results for AIDS do not appear to be, at this particular time, very accurate. Is it not true in this province that we cannot in fact go beyond the minimum test for AIDS, which is the one which seems to be the most erratic in its evidence? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The information that I am receiving is that no, that is not correct. We can get a pretty factual test.

The position of the government on this is, we have no intention of changing anything or bringing this kind of legislation certainly at this time. We've been informed that the members of the Official Opposition were going to bring a resolution to Private Members' to discuss it. I personally welcome this. We can discuss that and get the benefit of the information or advice from other people. When asked about my own personal view at this time, I had the same concern.

I certainly would not go along with something that would be a bit ridiculous, for instance, making this a condition, them receiving a licence to get married when they've been living together for a few years, for instance. I think we'd want to look at that. I don't know if the concept is that bad as far as marriage, but it has to accomplish something and it would be very, very difficult now. Many people who have a commitment. Their commitment is that they live together without being married. Now there was also the one, as you know, about the pregnant women. Now my concern was the same.

I think we could encourage that. I had concern there, because I felt that one of the reasons - and certainly many of the people, if they felt they actually wanted an abortion, I felt that became then a moral issue or a religious issue, and I felt that it should be left to the individual. Even though, maybe if I felt different about abortion, maybe I'd feel differently, but that's a personal feeling. In other words, government does not intend to bring this legislation, but we'll listen to the resolution of the Official Opposition. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: I'd really like clarification on this, because I think th en we've had some misinformation, which is not unusual, in the media, which is to the effect that the Cadham Lab could only do the initial test and then any subsequent test had to be sent to Toronto for the verification of the AIDS.

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 HON. L. DESJARDINS: The initial test is done here. To confirm a test, there is one being done here and one in Ottawa, and they are considered both, one as valid as the other, and you don't need both. You have one or the other. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: A couple of questions, reporting in current STD cases - and AIDS would, I assume, follow the same pattern in cases of reporting - let's deal with the person who has AIDS. That would be reported by name to the Sexually Transmitted Disease Directorate.

Would somebody contact that person at that point from that department? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I think, as was explained with the other venereal diseases or sexually transmitted diseases, as I was saying yesterday, it is not optional. It is compulsory to report those who you might have had contact with. That doesn't mean we get all the information, but definitely they would follow with this. But the AIDS, no, it is more on a voluntary basis. MR. M. DOLIN: No, you're missing the question. Maybe I can reph rase it.

Once it is reported to STD, does a staffperson from Sexually Transmitted Disease Control then contact the person with AIDS to do, what I would assume, a couple of things: one to educate them on what the disease is, and to talk about contacts and things like that? Is that part of the normal procedure? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I think that explains the reason why I wanted Dr. Fast, and I'm relying so much on - at times it is complicated and they change quite fast.

Now the information is that, at this time, contact is with the doctor, and the doctor will advise if there is anything we can do with patient so-and-so who we've identified. That could change, but right now the main staff is still a doctor. MR. M. DOLIN: I assume, No. 1, that reporting is confidential and absolutely confidential. Then what happens is, once the report is made for an AIDS carrier, the STD people contact the doctor and tell the doctor to call the patient back in and discuss contacts and do some education around the illness if he or she hasn't already done so. Is that correct? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Yes, and also offer our help, if there is anything he feels that we can do to assist. But we leave the initiative to the doctor, inform them that we have the name of his patient and so on. MR. M. DOLIN: I'd like to move on then to the case of the AIDS carrier. In the case of the AIDS carrier, my unde rstanding from what Dr. Fast said, is the lab would report that we have a positive AIDS carrier and would then report back to the physician. Would the same process then take place, the physician would be told to call that patient in to explain to them, to get contacts, etc.?

Is that the way that process works? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Right. 822 MR. M. DOLIN: That is correct, okay. Is there anything in the reporting mechanism or in the regulations to make it mandatory for the doctor to do exactly what the procedure outlined requires? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, it isn't. The only thing mandatory, when this becomes law, would be that he has to report by name. MR. M. DOLIN: What I would assume then, you know, assuming physicians have taken a Hippocratic oath, that there really is not a great deal of problem with noncompliance of doctors when they are being asked to do this.

Now would I be wrong in that assumption? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Of course, we can't make things mandatory that we can't enforce, and you're not arguing that. Yes, we'd expect no problem at all with the medical profession. It would want to cooperate with us on this and, like you say, they have certain obligations. If so, then we 'd contact the Col lege of Physicians and Surgeons. MR. M. DOLIN: Given the fact that patient reporting of contacts can only be through encouragement of the patient to do so. I mean, there's no way you can take a rubber hose to a patient, be it a carrier or a person who has AIDS.

In a previous karma, when I was Executive Director of Klinic Community Health Centre and Dr. Fast, I think, remembers, there was a little trial we did with chlamydia, which at that time was not a reportable disease, to look at whether or not patients, when given cards and asked to contact the people they had been in contact with when they were positive chlamydia, on their own seemed to generate a great many secondary contacts coming in voluntarily where the patient gave the card rather than the doctor doing this. I'm wondering, is this kind of thing going to be encouraged also?

Was that a reasonably successful event, that aside from the doctor asking for the contacts, the patient be told to go out and contact your own contacts and tell them to come in for check ups? HON. L. DESJARDINS: With your perm1ss1on, Mr. Chairman, I'd ask Dr. Fast to answer that because this is something . . . DR. M. FAST: I think that trial period we had with Klinic was very useful in assessing whether or not what we call self-referral, patients referring their own partners was useful.

I think I should make it clear that, now that AIDS is reportable, we are in the process of speaking to a number of other jurisdictions and finding out how they are dealing with the whole issue of contacts, notification, education of contacts. We are trying to examine all options, and that will certainly be one of them. MR. M. DOLIN: Just one other concern I have is, I would assume somebody who has AIDS, as distinct from somebody who's an AIDS virus carrier, shows some symptomatology which is disfunctional for that person where they would go in for medical treatment.

Is this always the case in the case of carriers?

• Thursday, 9 April, 1987 DR. M. FAST: No, it's not always the case in carriers, and that's very important because it means that most of the people in the province who are infected appear well, and there's no way you can identify them without doing a bl ood test. A person who has AIDS, by definition, is a very ill person who is seeking medical care. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask a number of questions for clarification because this has been and probably will continue to be a rather confusing issue. First of all, Mr.

Chairman, and probably if the Minister wishes, Dr. Fast could answer them direct. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I appreciate that. I think that is the best way. It's not a political ... MR. D. ORCHARD: There's no sense you answering the questions just for formality. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's too important an issue to lose something in the translation. MR. D. ORCHARD: Dr. Fast, in Manitoba there are the two types of tests of AIDS. There is the preliminary screening test which is described as a fairly high degree of positive and accurate, and then there are the other tests.

Now the Minister answered earlier on, does Cadham do the second test in Manitoba and is the only lab that does that? DR. M. FAST: Yes, that's correct. MR. D. ORCHARD: And it's my understanding, and am I correct that test could be in the range of 99.9 percent positive or correct? DR. M. FAST: Yes, it's considered to be a very specific and sensitive test, very accurate. MR. D. ORCHARD: As well, a laboratory in Ottawa does a similar test equally as accurate as Cadham does for the second test? DR. M. FAST: Yes, that's correct. Could I just add something to that? They don't do that additional test on our specimens.

Every lab decides which confirmatory, which second test they want to do. The Ottawa lab has chosen one test; the Cadham Lab has chosen a different test. MR. D. ORCHARD: Dr. Fast, I understood that. And it is only the preliminary, positive samples that are further tested? DR. M. FAST: Yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. I'm intrigued, Dr. Fast, because last year of cou rse in Estimates as the Min ister has indicated, he thought he could get AIDS reportable on a rather rapid note.

In the meantime, the Ga y communit y has been 823 cooperating, I presume primarily with yourself, as the head of Communicable Diseases, the department's major contact point. Can I ask you to be more specific? What group in the Gay commun ity are acting as the one group, or are there several groups that you're dealing with? DR. M. FAST: The Gay community has been dealing, both directly with my department and also indirectly through the AIDS Committee, which is a committee on which there are three Gay representatives.

These are all either physician or nurse representatives of the Gay community, and I guess there are as many groups within the Gay community as there are in any other community. We have no way of knowing if they represent the whole commun ity or not. MR. D. ORCHARD: Dr. Fast, you're a mind reader because of course that naturally was the follow-up question as to whether the cooperation you've received, if you've got any idea of the extent to which that is representative of the Gay community.

Because as we're all aware, there are a great number of homosexual people who do not want to be involved in any way with a formal organization hence identified. Would you have any idea of - I'm looking for the right words - the percentage of representation in the Gay commun ity that you'v e been dealing with on the volun tary basis? DR. M. FAST: I think that's a very valid question. I can't honestly answer it because we don't know.

We have also been having some communication with the AIDS Advocacy Group, and there is also a group in the city called Manitoba AIDS Council with whom we've had some indirect communication. We also deal, sort of on a daily, more anecdotal basis with just gay people who phone in and want information and want advice and state their view, but that's a much more informal mechanism. MR. D.

ORCHARD: In the volu ntary program that has existed until the regulation and is still existing until the regulation is gazetted, etc., etc., and becomes in force and effect with the Gay community, am I correct in my un derstanding that a person who wishes to avail themselves of blood testing services through that would go through some prelimi nary couns ell ing as a mandatory - well, mandatory maybe is not the right word - but that is part of the policy approach. Is that correct? DR. M. FAST: That counselling is recommended. Again, it's not mandatory, but it is recommended. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Let me just get it straight in my mind then. Could a person, could I - and I will openly put this on the record so there's no doubt. I am not gay or a member of the Gay community. If I approached you on this volun tary program, would you, without me going to this counselling program, take a sample of blood, do the test for me? DR. M. FAST: I can't speak for every physician out there. If you came to me, I would strongly recommend that you receive some counselling, and I'd slip you in

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 a little counsel ling. But if a person felt that they wanted to have the test under any circumstances, I would not withhold the test from you. I'm not sure that any physician would, but there might be some who feel very strongly about that and then who would not test you. HON. l. DESJARDINS: It would be a judgment call. It might be a doctor who might refuse an abortion after so many days or weeks. That would be a judgment call. MR. D. ORCHARD: Can I ask some que stions specifically about the Red Cross operation and your work with the Red Cross operation?

Does the Red Cross - they do tfte initial screening first, which is somewhat inaccurate or maybe highly inaccu rate. We won't quib ble over the degree of accuracy. Do they use the Cadham Lab for their follow up test or do they use the Ottawa Lab? DR. M. FAST: They, in fact, use the Red Cross reference lab to which they also refer. They do hepatitis testing as well, and they use the same system there. They have their own lab which is in Toronto, I believe. MR. D.

ORCHARD: So will the regulations that are passed apply to the labo ratory tests from Red Cross that are identified positive by the second, more accurate test? Will the regulation cover those samples as well? DR. M. FAST: It's my understanding that they do, and with other infections that they pick up in their testing. They report them to us under current legislation. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Without the name, that's the one they would get. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. Now that's interesting because - now I, in no way, want to have this line of questioning appear to be questioning the competence of Red Cross.

I want that right from the start to be understood. But I was left with - I had a discu ssion with an individual. I certainly can't indicate who it was for obvious reasons, but I very much respect and trust his professional credibility and his professional status and his knowledge of the Red Cross operation.

He was indicating to me that, under the voluntary program that the department had over the past year or so that we just finished discussing with the Gay commun ity, mem bers of the Gay commun ity who may not have been active in the organizations did not want to come forward and go through the counselling, which automatically the fear is there that they may have been identified as a member of the Gay commu nity, etc.

So what they were doing over the past year, say, is going in to make a blood donation at Red Cross with the expectation - put it that way - that if their sample came back, knowing that Red Cross had instituted the blood screening to assure the security of the blood system, they would then find out if they were antibody positive in terms of testing. Now I'm informed that up until very recently, maybe the last couple or three weeks, the Red Cross was not under any legislative requirement and did not pass on those positive tests to yourself or anyone else, and 824 indeed did not pass those on to the donor.

If a donor came back back in to donate again and in three month's time repeated the process, it was indicated to me that they would simply discard the blood and still wouldn't tell the individual that he was virus positive. Now apparently that system has changed over the last two to three weeks wherein now the Red Cross association, if they have a positive test come back, they will inform the individual's physician. Now are you aware, or is that information accurate as to how Red Cross fit into the regulation before this new one came in? DR. M. FAST: As far as I know, that information is not accurate.

Now until this point in time, the Red Cross has not been under any legal obligation to notify us. But the arrangement that I have with the director of the Manitoba Red Cross is that, when they identify a positive donor, they will initially contact that donor themselves and have that donor see his or her physician and get into the system through the physician. If they cannot contact the donor, they will refer all the information they have to my department, and we will then locate that donor. Now since testing began . . . HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Excuse me, just to make sure but, if they identify the donor, you don't get that information? DR. M. FAST: They will tell us if they have a positive donor who has been referred to the physician. HON. l. DESJARDINS: But you get them . . . DR. M. FAST: Yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: After you trigger in the encoded DR. M. FAST: Yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. DR. M. FAST: Since Red Cross began testing in November of 1985, they have only identified two positive donors, and both of those were identified in about the first month of testing. They've gone over a year with no positive donors.

So I find it difficult to bel ieve that they are withholding information on positive donors. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. I certainly would hope that that is correct, and now that I have that assurance from your cooperation with them, I'm going to speak to the individual to find out certainly why . . . HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, if I may, could I suggest also, if that is the case, that we'd make sure that person would not be identified but, if he could contact us and discuss his concerns with us, with the understanding that would be . . . MR. D.

ORCHARD: That's the understanding I'd had in making a contact later on today. Okay. Then right now, let's assume this regulation is already in effect. Then, Red Cross, if they were to identify a

- - Thursday, 9 April, 1987 positive antibody carrier, they would then be required to report that to yourself under this regulation. DR. M. FAST: Yes, that's my understanding, yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, Mr. Chairman, with the - there's some other information that I'd just like to clarify, and this deals once again with the blood system. You've got a circumstance where a person through contact may be infected by the AIDS virus. What is a period of time - and I realize this probably ranges because there are ranges throughout the whole AIDS case from the time you show physical symptoms of full-blo wn AIDS, etc., etc.

But is there a minimum and an average period of time from when you are infected with the virus to when your body creates the antibodies which are detected by the tests? DR. M. FAST: Yes, there is a period of time and two months, I suppose, is a reasonable average. During those two months, a person might well be infectious. This is why we ask people who are in risk groups not to donate blood, because they may be infected and the test would not show up as positive. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is it also that, currently, any tests for the virus itself are quite inaccurate. Is that a correct statement?

Not the antibody, but the virus? DR. M. FAST: As far as I know, and Manitoba at the present does not have virus culture capability, but in those laboratories which do look for the virus, as far as I know, it's not a problem identifying the virus. It's just technologically very complex. MR. D. ORCH ARD: And then, presu mabl y, more expensive than the two accurate tests for the antibody. Would that be a fair . . . DR. M. FAST: Yes, more expensive, and also you need to have more extensive laboratory containment facilities to do that kind of virus work. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Again, and I guess to put it in perspective, I just refer to a CBC program that I listened to last Saturday - I believe it was on Quirks and Quarks where they dealt with AIDS - and they opened it up with what I considered - and I don't consider CBC to be into sort of scare journalism, if you will. But one thing they indicated is that, if there's a consistent trend in AIDS as we progress down the time span of gaining knowledge on the dis ease, it was - and I'll paraphrase the words - that "the worse case scenario from the past has become the average sort of happening." Here's where the scary

part comes in for me as an individual. We've got blood services, blood fractionating services, etc ., etc ., and presumabl y th ose wou ld eventually, if not now, have antibody-positive blood discarded so that the Manitoba system is safe. The Manitoba Red Cross system is safe right now for any antibody positive blood donations.

But I guess what is frightening, and that's the reason for the question on the test for the virus, is that as our infected population grows, not only in Manitoba but internationally in the North American continent, the chance of having blood 825 which is not antibody contaminated but rather in that incu bation period of the two-month average may well transmit the virus directly. Is that a medical concern? If the virus is transmitted directly, well it would have to be the virus that causes the problem in blood transfusions, isn't it? DR. M. FAST: Are you asking if this is a concern? MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes. DR. M.

FAST: At this point in time, I think you're quite correct in saying that the blood supply in Manitoba, by every indicator we have, is very safe. It's certainly quite possible that, if more and more Manitobans become infected and donate blood, eventually there will be some blood donations that transmit infection that aren't picked up. But at the same time, the virus tests I'm sure are going to be available in the future. If that should happen, presumably we'll have better tests available. MR. D. ORCHARD: Because presumably, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister and to Dr.

Fast, if the virus test was reliable and as economic, that would be the test you would test all blood for. You wouldn't bother with the antibody test because, before you test for antibodies, the virus naturally is there. It's there from square one. DR. M. FAST: Yes, if one had ready access to virus tests, that would be the test to use.

Could I also add that for blood products, for example, the products that hemophiliacs receive now which were one of the major sources of spread of the AIDS virus, those products, in addition to being tested for the virus, are also heat treated, so there is virtually no possibility of virus being spread through blood products even if there does happen to be some virus there initially. MR. D. ORCHARD: That's blood products. Is my understanding correct that you can't do that with whole blood? DR. M. FAST: That's correct. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I want to deal with the regulation as it applies to the legislation, because there appears to be some confusion as to where we're heading. I don't want to take up too much more of the committee, because other members want to ask some questions as well. But these regulations are part of The Public Health Act and would probably - and correct me if I'm wrong - be the regulations which would replace R2, I think it is. DR. M. FAST: They would replace part of R2. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay. HON. L. DESJARDINS: P2 10 -R2, yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Let me understand again the regulations.

Anyone who is AIDS disease positive - in other words, he's got the full- blown disease - that's

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 identifiable by name because, unfortunately that person within a period of time is going to die. Where the encoding system comes in is where you have simply the antibody-positive blood test. The individual shows no signs of the disease. This gets us into the problem of contact tracing at that stage of the game. You're indicating that the regulation you've put in - and correct me if my impression is wrong.

The regulation as passed yesterday and as will eventually be law does not allow for mandatory contact tracing of the antibody-positive individual carriers, as we agreed to call them earlier on. DR. M. FAST: That's true for both the carriers and for the person who has AIDS. There is no mandato"ry contact tracing for either group. MR. D. ORCHARD: For chlamydia, which is also part of the regulations, is mandatory contact tracing required for chlamydia under the regulation? DR. M. FAST: Yes, for chlamydia, it will be handled in the same way as syphilis and gonorrhea.

We have the authority to investigate contacts and to require them to be investigated, if you like. MR. D. ORCHARD: I guess, Mr. Chairman - and here's where we get into the political argument now - I have to say with regret that I don't think that the regulation then goes far enough. I'll pose some other questions, and then we can debate the philosophy of that later on. Am I correct in assuming that with the regulations, including this one that had passed, because they come under The Public Health Act, the penalty

section of The Public Health Act would be applicable to a violation of those regulations, is that correct? DR. M. FAST: Yes, I believe that would be correct. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, in the case. Mr. Chairman, of chlamydia, there is, by the regulation, compulsory contact reporting so that for chlamydia - and I'll just read into the record under "Offences and Penalties," page 21 of The Public Health Act.

Section 39(1) says: "A person who contravenes or fails to comply with any provision of this Act or the regulations, or who disobeys or fails to comply with or carry out an order or direction lawfully made or given under this Act or the regulations, is guilty of an offence and liable, on summ ary conviction, to a fine not exceeding five hund red dollars. or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to both such fine and such imprisonment." Then

section 39(2) deals with continuing offence wherein it says: "A violation of this Act or the regulations. or a failure to comply with this Act or the regulations or an order or direction lawfully made or given under this Act or the regulations that continues for more than one day, constitutes a separate offence on each day during which it continues." I presume from

section 39(2) that would mean that for every day you fail to com ply with, let 's say, compu lsory reporting of ch lamydia, you would be subject to daily the $500 fine or the imprisonment or 826 both; so that if you held off for a week, you could be fined a maximum of $3,500 or spend 21 months in jail. Now we do that, the Member for Kildonan has asked the question. does this apply to the doctors? It's my understanding that this would apply to the doctor or if Dr.

Fast's new staff members asked that one with chlamydia to identify their contacts and they didn't, that would be the penalty that could be enforced on the individual. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Contact on this, not AIDS. DR. M. FAST: I'm afraid I don't know enough about the legalities to be able to comment on that. We certainly in my department have never invoked that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, no, I realize that. HON. L. DESJARDINS: But it is compulsory for the contact, except AIDS. MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I would agree with that . MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm not a lawyer either, Dr.

Fast, so all I'm doing is going by the act, and the penalty provision is in the act and it applies to the regulations. Chlamydia, which you just made a reportable disease, these sorts of penalties could apply, if you so desired, on

summary conviction for anyone who failed to divulge who their contacts were. Okay, here we get into the philosophy of it. We've got a disease here, and Mr. Minister the other day, when we were discussing this Tuesday afternoon, you said, well what would you do, how would you force them? Well, if an individual has chlamydia, gonorrhea or syphilis, you have powers conferred by a statute that was passed a number of years ago to make sure that compliance is there. There is some weight of law enforced to make those STD's contacts reportable.

I guess I have to say that with the seriousness of AIDS, the potential threat that AIDS represents - and I simply reiterate the program statement out of "Quirks and Quarks," where sort of the worst-case scenario from a year ago or two years ago has become the norm in terms of our knowledge in Aids. It's heterosexual now. Last year, when we were discussing this, Mr. Minister, the projection at the time of Estimates, which was July - only nine months ago - was that there may be as many as 40 full-blo wn cases of AIDS in Manitoba over the next five years.

Well, we've got 72 positive, I think it is now, and 17 full-b lown cases, so that our predictions from nine months ago are changing rapidly. That's why I believe that is incumbent on us to make AIDS a fully reportable disease, including the penalty

section for contact tracing. Now, I appreciate the difficulty that you'v e got in terms of your confidential identification system and that seems to be the biggest problem, because a person with AIDS, as it stands right now, may well be a member of the homosexual community or someone involved with illegal use of intravenous drugs, the latter being an offence which doesn't doesn't carry possibly the same social opinion as the former. But now that we've

I - Thursday, 9 April, 1987 got AIDS into the heterosexual commu nity and we may well have bisexual men, bisexual women who are infected and capable of transferring this to the heterosexual community, to the straight community, if you will, I think that if we don't do it today, we may well be back here next year changing these regulations you'v e passed now to make cont act reporting compu lsory. Mr. Chairman . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Please, no discussions across the table. You address your questions through the Chair. MR. D. ORCHARD: . . .

I recognize that there is always the problem that you may not be able to enforce the law but, by making the present law with some teeth and more penalty, I think your ch ances are enhanced. Right now, the way it stands, you'r e working on entirely a volu ntary system. If you have reasonable cooperation, fine, but if you don't have, you have nothing. You don't have the abili ty to do anythin g to try to make compliance. Maybe in some instances, just the threat of that fine or the threat of that imprisonment would be enough to make them divulge contacts. Right now you have nothing. Mr.

Min ister, I would urge you to reconsider the position. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I think my honourable friend is absolutely right. This is a political decision. I want to say from the outset that it is not an ideology hang-up as far as I'm concerned. Now, if we were talking or if you were advocating - you made it quite clear last time that you weren't advocating that. This would be made compulsory, and then we would segregate or we jailed all the people who have it, then you would have if you were - I know you're not, I'll accept that.

But then we have an ideology hang-up and, if we have to come back next year, I won't hesitate at all. I won't feel that I'm backing down or anything. I think that we have to leave the flexibility because so little is known, and I think that we would all agree this is something we want to treat outside of the partisan politics. I think we all agree it's too serious, and it is serious. Before I finish I'll read you some of the things that tell us about the scare, because it is very serious. But the co ncern is - and I am going with the recommendation that remained by our people at this stage and they agree.

They admit that they could change their recommendations in the future, and also by those that we're meeting with the other provinces and the interprovincial and federal. First of all, it is obvious that it is practically impossible - well, I would say impossible - to enforce without the cooperation of people. Now you might say, and I suppose that would be a fair question, well why are you doing it for some of the diseases and not AIDS? I think that, because of the seriousness of AIDS, that people are more concerned of being on that list and I think we would have more problems.

We would not get the cooperation we're getting now. That's the concern, because they're so afraid. We hear every day that people don't want - the policemen don't want to have anything to do with them, you lose your job. The hospitals don't want to treat them, and all the experts tell us there's no danger there, that that is something - well, I shouldn't say ridiculous 827 - you don't call anybody ridiculous when there's that question of fear, but that concern. So that is why we feel at this stage, rightly or wrongly - and call it a judgment case.

As I say, that's why it's so important to liave the flexibil ity, not to be afraid to change. If it is advisable to change and when it is advisable to change, the y will have less cooperation and less information on those people because they won't want to come and get their names. Let me give you an idea that I said - this is from the projection of those who are not at the top, the carriers. In 19 91, this is worldwide, there will be 50 to 100 million people infected. In 19 91, worldwide, up to 3 million new cases of AIDS will occur. In 19 91, in the United States, there will be some 270,000 cases of AIDS.

In 199 1, Canada will have over 6,000 cases of AIDS. In 19 91, in the United States, the direct health costs for AIDS will be $16 billion and indirect costs for AIDS will be $60 million. Right now the projections, the information that I get, it's costing, anybody that has been identified as having AIDS, it will cost the province and the taxpayer of the province $10 0,000 for each person. I'm talking about $10 0,000, and we feel that it will be $5 million that we'll spend this year.

So the thing is, it's so important not to panic and it's so easy, and that's why I keep saying the information is to - I can see my honourable friend and, if we were convinced - and I say "we" because in the discussion that we have had in the department, if we were convinced that we can enforce that, we would probably think differently than we do. You see, you can cure somebody of other diseases. It might come further or they will go to the people right away and say, here. But I mean, if you've got AIDS, it's a different thing. If you are going to lose your job and all that, it is scary.

Maybe with some education, that will be changed. I don't know. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the statistics that the Minister just read out are very, very alarming statistics. Those are best estimates today and may well, as has happened at this committee over a nine month period, be revised. It's with that sort of prospect facing us that I suggest what I suggest, knowing that you may well have to bring the full weight and force of The Penalties Act in place. That's the very reason I suggest it. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Will you get results? MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the question the Minister posed is a good rhetorical question. Would you get results? Well, it appears to me that, nationally and internationally, we've got the kind of figures the Minister just put on the record, as a result of a voluntary reporting system to date. I don't think anybody would say that is satisfactory and by the fact - and I recognize the argument is made - that because there is no cure for AIDS, therefore there's no sense in contacting your partners. HON. L. DESJARDINS: No. That's not what I meant. I meant that would make it. People would resist even more to that.

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 MR. D. ORCHARD: Right. I know the psychology behind it. Becaus e there's a cure, the enfo rced cont act disclosure is more persuasive because you can offer them a treatment. Right? And in here, because there is no treatment, we're saying that the forced contact disclosure has no carrot at the end of the stick. I agree. But when you 're faced with statistics like that, in Canada 6,000 deaths by 19 91, I just can't help but be on the side of safety even though you may penalize an individual who doesn't disclose his or her contacts.

I want to err on the margin of error of safety of the majority of the population. That's where I'm coming from, and that's why I'm making the recommendation. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Can you guarantee that? MR. D. ORCHARD: No. I'm not saying that throwing an antibody-positive individual into jail for three months is going to give you results, but I'm simply saying to you that, right now, I don't believe a volun tary system is giving you all of the results. You may be - and I'll use a percentage example.

Under the current system, you may have 25 percent disclosure by 72 AIDS antibody-positive identified individuals in Manitoba. If there was some compulsion to it, you might get 50 percent. Now that's an improvement. HON. L. DESJARDINS: If I may, Mr. Chairman, that's what we contest and don't agree with. You say the carrot and we might be wrong. One of us has to be wrong. The carrot is this, that you are saying to people you are not going to be on any list and it's not going to cost you anything and we'll keep this confidential. And that will, hopefull y, provide that they'll cooperate with us.

That's the concern that we have. So far, even for the other venereal diseases where it is compulsory for those who have had contacts, well then that has never been used to obtain contacts, but to treat the people so far. MR. D. ORCHARD: But I think because you've got that as a penalty in there, you can read to us the statistics that are part of this year's Estimates where I think the cases of syphilis have gone down. It will matter, because we're into a discussion so I'll read them too. Syphilis in 1984 was 122 cases; in 19 85, 103 cases. I mean, it's working.

It's working under the reportable disease where there's a compulsory contact. We're going to be hung up on the argument of the cure versus the no-cure, the carrot versus the no-carrot but, Mr. Chairman, this is not intended to be a 10 0 percent comparable example. About a year ago to prevent the potential spread of red measles, your department prevented children from going to school who weren't immunized. That was over red measles.

We're dealing with a much more serious circumstance here in AIDS, and I don't believe that we're going as far as we should in terms of making AIDS a reportable disease with the full weight of the act behind it. I guess I can say no more to make my position any clearer. HON. L. DESJARDINS: This is an honest discussion but I want us to make sure that we understand each other. I would not hesitate a minute and the government 828 would not hesitate a minute if we thought we had a chance of saving one life more. It's not that we're afraid to go because we're going to be criticized for going too far.

We are right now, all information that we have, this is where the difference is. We are convinced as much as we can be convinced that we're achieving more without making it compulsory. I want you to understand this, not that we'd hesitate, it's an ideology. We feel that with the cooperation, and that's why I can't say it too often that the important thing is education. This is not just a disease or you're going to get a vaccination for measles.

We're talking about something that means death, and that is why we feel that the public, if you cooperate and give the information to the public and if they can't do it for that, what do you think a month in jail or three months in jail is going to change anything, which you will never be able to prove? They will say they have no contact, so you'd have to find out. You'd have to hire detectives and find out, yes, that they were seen with such a person on such a day, or somebody would have to come forward and say, yes, I had a contact with them. So it is not that we're afraid, that we don't want to do it.

If it didn't do any harm, we felt that it wouldn't do any harm, it would be worth the chance, all right, if there's a chance that it will succeed. Maybe it won't, but we feel that it is going to scare some people away, and that's the advice we're getting. As I say, fine, if anything comes out we'll change. We won't even wait until we have a Session to bring in anything. If need be, we'll call a special Session. It's too important. So it is not an ideology hangup in that way. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I'll agree with the Minister that it's not an ideological hangup, I'll agree with him there.

His best indication right now is that the voluntary system is giving him the most effective results. Let me make the proposition to you, Mr. Minister, that you change nothing in terms of the voluntary system. Those people who wish to cooperate and will cooperate under the voluntary system, because they are doing it now in terms of the other STD's, the syphil ises, gonorrheas, but the ones who aren't might just take a look at the penalties of the act if they were there and decide to cooperate. Because the penalties . . . HON. L.

DESJARDINS: You're suggesting some kind of a permissive that we could invoke that, or what? MR. D. ORCHARD: That's exactly what you have right now with syphilis and gonorrhea. You could but you don't have to, because they go along. You say, right now, that you'v e got good cooperation - I don't know what percentage that means of the 72, whether that's all 72 have cooperated or whether it's 50 or whether it's 60, you know. But I am saying that you've got that right now on a volunt ary basis. That would not change with those individuals if there were penalties in the act.

I can't see how it would change one iota, but it may bring in some who don't cooperate. HON. L. DESJARDINS: But it might also - that's the same concern - scare some away. MR. D. ORCHARD: Who are going to voluntarily cooperate? No.

- . Thursday, 9 April, 1987 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Oh, no, some of them - well, if they feel that it's compulsory, they might. I'm ready to look at that, I'm ready to look to see if there is a way that we could not harm anything and then if we've got nothing to lose, then it's worth it. But let's look at that and discuss it with lawyers and we'll come back. I'll discuss that with you, get some more people - if this is important enough, I'm ready to take advice anywhere I can get it. But I don't want to make this more difficult to deal with, so we'll look at that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member tor Ellice. MR. H.

SMITH: I would like to ask some questions on the carriers. Dr. Fast, what percentage of carriers actually end up with the AIDS virus and actually become very sick? DR. M. FAST: Nobody knows that for sure yet. What we do know is that, and it depends on different studies, but it's approximately 5 percent every year, so that in the first year, 5 percent, in the second year, 10 percent. So we now have about seven years' worth of experience with the AIDS virus, it's about 35 percent. It may be that each year that number will increase. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That will develop AIDS, is that correct? DR. M.

FAST: Yes, we don't know, and this is why there are conflicting figures because we just don't have enough experience yet. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I can tell you this, Mr. Chairman, that the last meeting, the Deputy Minister just came back from a Federal-Provincial Advisory Committee on International Health Affairs, and the update would be - and again it's a guess pretty well what you've been saying - that now between 30 percent and 50 percent of carriers, the silent epidemic, will develop AID S over the next five years.

But it could be that, after that it may be dormant for awhile and it might be that everybody will eventually have it. That's why we figure that, even if there was a vaccination or something for prevention, even if you had it now, you'll be stuck with this problem, not the same problem, but the people infected could develop infection for the next 10 years. MR. H. SMITH: The next question I'd like to ask is to do with the spread of the disease. We always talk about high-risk groups, and that must mean that there are other groups who are at risk as well.

Since the disease is, I gather, fairly prevalent in Haiti and certain parts of Africa, and I have read reports of heterosexual people contacting the disease, I'd like to know, in Canada, have there been any cases of heterosexuals with the disease? DR. M. FAST: Yes, there have been. Maybe I could just add that we are getting away from the term "risk groups" for the very reasons you mentioned in talking about risk activities, and anybody who has multiple sex partners or who has the wrong sex partner is at risk of developing this infection. And, yes, there have been cases in heterosexuals in Canada.

They still represent 829 a very small proportion of the total, but it is a constant proportion so that, as the total number of cases goes up, the total number of cases in the heterosexual population is also increasing. MR. H. SMITH: Are there any cases in Manitoba of heterosexuals at this point in time? DR. M. FAST: Not amongst our AIDS patients, but amongst the carriers. There is at least one heterosexual who has been identified. MR. H. SMITH: Do you really feel through this reporting system that we've devised that you will be able to really control the disease?

Do you really feel it is ample enough, what we're doing now, to do things to be able to help control the disease? DR. M. FAST: I don't think that the reporting is going to make a difference in the control of the disease. What's going to make the difference is education. I know we keep saying that over and over again, but it is the only thing we have to offer. MR. H. SM ITH: Well then, with education, we'r e spending, I gather, more in Manitoba than the other western provinces but, at the same time - are we not, with education programs? I've read that just in the media. DR. M. FAST: I can't answer that. MR. H.

SMITH: But with the seriousness that the Minister has talked about this disease today, about the projected growth of it, I am wondering why we are not thinking of programs. For example, I watch American TV and I see a very definite ad that specifically zeroes in and tells you to phone this number. I don't know really, I don't see anything like that in Canada at all or in Manitoba. Are we going to be addressing this type of education program to facilitate the information out?

The British Government here is spending $30 million on advertising, so I'm wondering if we are really devoting enough of our resources to educate people with a probability of how they can contact AIDS, what they must do to control it? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, if I may, it was the Federal Government that started cooperation. It started only about a month ago or so and they were still debating on some of the ads and so on. When this is voted, also, the money that we are looking at, we would start a program. Now, it could be argued, I guess, it will always be argued, is it enough?

But you know we'v e got to look at all the needs in the health field and we can't just all go for one and not to the other , so who can answer that? We're doing the best that we can and, if this committee wants to give us more money, we'll take it. MR. H. SMITH: Well, Mr. Minister, I'm wondering what sort of discussions had taken place with the other Health Mini sters across Canada and with the Federal Government to really get them to cooperate and to be spending the sort of monies that we must spend to in

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 effect do more, especially when you talk about those figures. You're the one, Mr. Minister, who made me alarmed about it by your quoting those figures. I wasn't as alarmed ... HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, then you can't bring them up to show how serious it is. MR. H. SMITH: Yes. So you know, it seems to me that - what sort of discussions have you had with the other Min isters and the Federal Minister and what is the feeling by the other Min isters and their provinces about this problem? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Of course, the political exercise is important at the level of the Ministers, but we all agree, there is an ongoing committee of people who are more expert than we have, with the blessing of the politicians of the political master - call it, if you want, that - who are working constantly on that. That is why I felt that we're maybe stretching things a bit by having Dr. Fast here to answer that, and this is why I had suggested in the House that we give her a chance to be prepared with all the information.

If we can get some other people who can advise or help us, we would have a presentation and a question period with all the members of the House, including the media. MR. H. SMITH: I have no other questions. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you. I'd just like to follow up on a couple of things of concern. I realize we're spending a lot of time on this section, but I think it is probably, presently and in the future, going to be one of the most significant problems facing the health field in Manitoba.

I'm sympathetic to the Memb er for Pembina's desires, although not his methods, in the way of establishing contact. I'd just like to ask a que stion through you, Mr. Chairman, to Dr. Fast. There is no symptomatology for persons who carry the HI V virus to carriers, right, that they are shown? Is that correct, Dr. Fast? HON. L. DESJARDINS: There's no what? MR. M. DOLIN: There's no symptomatology. I mean, people don't feel sick if they're just carriers and don't have the disease. Is that correct? DR. M. FAST: About 75-or-more percent of people who are just carriers will have no symptoms.

Some of them though, 20-25 percent, will have some symptoms. Some of them have - you may have heard of AIDS related complex - some symptoms that are not severe enough to call them AIDS. MR. M. DOLIN: Given that, it would seem to identify the AIDS carriers without having a universal blood test for every man, woman and child in the province, since AIDS is not specifically a homosexual disease. Certainly, in Africa, it's my un ders tanding it's primarily a heterosexual disease.

Where people go from Africa to 830 North America and back and forth and what not, it's obvious that it can be transferred from country to country by sexual contact. Is there any way that one could identify the AID S carriers without having a universal blood test program for everybody in this province? DR. M. FAST: Not that I'm aware of. MR. M. DOLIN: Okay. Mr.

Chairman, based on this, one of the concerns we have is to be able to control the spread - and I am getting a feeling from some of the members of the Opposition that they are developing what I would consider a plague mentality, trying to identify and establish AIDS colonies like leper colonies, which I think is an absurd way of handling the problem. I tend to agree with education. The Member for Pembina suggests that using the full force of the law to invoke carriers or victims of AIDS, those who actually have the disease, to report their contacts would increase the amount of contacts reported.

I would just like to point out, for your information, and I'd like Dr. Fast's comment on it, some years ago in my previous incarnation as the Executive Director of Klinic, we had in 1978, I think it was, 11.8 percent of all the reported venereal disease contacts in the province with two doctors. Now one of the reasons for that was very simply because the patients trusted the doctors and were willing to give them the information because they were not coerced, they were not harassed, and that they trusted their physician in our clinic.

I would tend to think that would probably be the case in most medical-patient relationship situations. Would you feel that the continuation of a voluntary program where doctors perhaps get some education and training on how to counsel and deal with AIDS carriers and AIDS victims would be a better way than attempting to use coercion? I would tend to feel from my experience it wou ld. Now I realize and I'm sympathetic to what the Member for Pembina is trying to do, but I'm wondering if it would achieve the results that he wishes to achieve, and I'm wondering if Dr. Fast could comment on that, Mr.

Chairman, through you. DR. M. FAST: It's our understanding, both from our experience with other STD in Manitoba and with the experience of other jurisdictions with AIDS, that the voluntary approach that you!re advocating or suggesting is in fact the preferred one and that it seems to have more to offer than the coercive approach. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Not trying to break away or disrupt that, just on the same thing, I'd like to ask a question of Dr. Fast. Also, Doctor, through you, Mr. Chairman, you stated that you don't know of any other provinces where it is compulsory to give the names of the contacts.

Now has there been some discu ssion at your committees on that with other provinces on this, and what has the reason been for that? DR. M. FAST: I'm not aware of any jurisdiction where it's mandatory for people to name contacts. HON. L. DESJARDINS: But was that ever discussed at the level with other provinces?

Thursday, 9 April, 1987 DR. M. FAST: It's come up just sort of in conversation. I'm not aware that it's ever been formally discussed. HON. L. DESJARDINS: What I'm trying to find out is: Do the provinces all feel the way we do, and they feel that that is not the way to go, or is that some kind of a hangup? DR. M.

FAST: No, I think that the other provinces would feel the same way that we do and, in fact, in some ways Manitoba is ahead of other provinces in that we have established a counselling system, an individual education "getting information from" and "providing information for people" system before most other provinces. MR. M. DOLIN: So, if I'm clear on what Dr.

Fast is saying, in consultation with the other provinces if, as the Member from Pembina suggests, we attempted to use coercive measures with AIDS victims or AIDS carriers, as a matter of fact the amount of reporting - it is suspected by those professionals in the field who are discussing this - would probably go down rather than go up by people resisting reporting. Am I correct in that

interpretation of what Dr. Fast is saying? DR. M. FAST: It's generally felt that what would happen is people would not come in for testing anymore, not that reporting would necessarily fall off, but there would be nothing to report. MR. M. DOLIN: Just a final question on this. It appears that the method of not coercing but attempting to educate potential victims, the public at large and the people who already have the disease on the ramifications to themselves, to others, etc., is the method of choice that your department has chosen.

I'm also somewhat concerned - is there anything specific? - because the doctors being the key players in this in either the community health centres or the private physician in his office or the clinics or the hospitals, is there education to ensure, since there's no way that carriers can be identified and then once carriers are identified to have them deal with contacts where there is less specificity on the individual to educate the physicians on how to counsel properly, to be able to elicit the appropriate information either to have the patient contact the people he or she has been in contact with, or to have that patient voluntarily go and give that information to a public health nurse or somebody else who can make those contacts?

Is there such a program either in place or being planned for physicians and health care practitioners, public health nurses or nursing stations in the North or what have you? DR. M. FAST: We have been trying to provide this kind of education over the past several years, both through printed material and seminars and workshops. We also have planned a conference in early May at which the main speaker will be the physician who is in charge of the AIDS program for the entire United States, and that will be one of continuing sessions like that. 831 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Where is that going to be held? DR. M.

FAST: It's going to be held on May 11 at the Basic Sciences Building, and it's available to the public, anyone who is interested. MR. M. DOLIN: Just in

summary, what the program is, which seems to be the method of choice of all the provinces which seems to be the one to elicit the most accurate information on who has the disease and to be able to maximize the amount of information on contacts of those people, is to make it reportable and then contact a physician or some other health body to discuss that with that person on a positive relationship counselling type kind of situation to try and elicit the information. C

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-2-25
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 2nd hansardpdf 25.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a85bde13b1f6ec50ed1605377c50183931c53783

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