Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, February 22, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 11

February 22, 1973 The House resumed at 8:00 P.M. Recording System breakdown. Tape no. 269 Night _Session Page l - MRW MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we have now learned one or two facts about this particular lady. We are told by the (Acting) Premier that she was hired in November. MR. HICKMAN: On or about November l. MR. NEARY: What was that again? I did not get that, Mr. Chairman. MR. HICKMAN: On or about November l. MR. NEARY: On or about November l, the hon. (Acting) Premier tells us that this particular lady was hired. He also told us that she is receiving $8,000 a year. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the hon. (Acting) Premier if he would tell us just what it is, exactly what it is this lady does for her $8,000 a year? What kind of a job does she have? MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible). MR. ROUSSEAU: As I suggested before the short interruption, the honourable lady had been seconded from the Premier's Office to my office right now, in the sense that she is on the payroll of the Office of the Premier. She will be on my department's payroll in the coming fiscal year. She is presently doing research. She is presently doing an inventory for me of the physically handicapped.

She is going to provide a liaison with the volunteer organizations and agencies, charitable and noncharitable organizations. We are hoping that she will he able to provide some contact with regard to placement of physically handicapped people and help out in that area and she will also be doing some work with regard to a study we are doing in the Division of Recreation with regard to recreation for the mentally handicapped children. MR. W. N. ROWE: The lady to whom we are referring, Mr. Chairman 8 (l 7

February 22, 197J Tape no. 269 Page 2 perhaps the honourable minister could indicate whether this lady, who I do not know from Eve, but is she qualified in child welfare or does she have qualifications in the field of dealing with retarded \ children, i~e., or handicapped children of any kind? Also what is she called? W1lat is her job? The minister might also be able to tell us what she is going to be classified as once his department comes on stream? Why does not the payment for her salary come out of the honourable minister's division, which is a division which previously existed and which now exists?

Why do they not pay her out of that, all this kind of a thing, Mr. Chairman 1 Just to try to clear up 808

February 22, 1973 Tape 270(Night) the relative stranp,eness of the whole episode. Also is she on a fee for service basis,for example? She is being naid $8,000 a year, is this a one year contract? MR. ROBERTS: retroactively? MR._ROWE(W.N.): Have we any assurance it is not p.oinr.: to be negotiated Right. Hell. that question would seem to apply with just about everybody who has been taken on in the past six months or a year. This tyrie of a question, I mean does she have tenure? Is she an established civil sevant as it used to be understood?

Does she have pens.ion rights? !low docs she fit into the public service of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. ROUSSEAU: Her classification rip:ht now is p-enerally a research analyst in my department. She is on a contractual basis with the government. She is not a civil service employee. She is not paid 9 to the best of my knowled~e,a fee for service and her total salary is her salary of $8,000. 11R~_ROWE(W.N.): Mr. Chairman, another question. Is there a contract between the r,:overnment and -this lady or is she there at sufferance? Can she be flicked out by the ~overnment tornorrow 1 say?

I mean anv civil servant theoretically can ~et that fate although it does not very often happen but is she in an even more tenuous position than your ordinary civil servant? Was there a public competition held for her position? Perhaps the minister would like to deal with those questions. MR. ROUSSEAU: As I suggested to the hon. member for Hhite Day South, she is on a contractual basis and as many times as the hon. member asks that question he is going: to cet the same answer because that is the situation. MR. ROWE{W.N.): Does she have a contract? HR.

ROUSSEAU: She has a verbal contract with povernment. 803 JM - 1

February 22, 1973 Tape 270(Night) HR. ROWE(W.N.): A verbal contract. A contract normally has an amount stated and we have heard that but it usually has a term as well. Is there a term to this particular contract? Does it encl at the end of this fiscal year? Is it indefinite? Is it open-ended? What are the tenns of the contract? Perhaps the hon. minister would like~ well he says it is verbal, is there any memorandum of the contract and if so would he care to table it? MR. ROUSSEAU: I would think that her - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. RotvE(tL~N_!J_..:, Table a memorandum of the verbal contract. Now Mr.

Chairman, let us not have legal advice from the member for Bonavista South. ,~-~~- ROUSSEAU:. I would think that a verb11l contract for one year woulri he much similar to those other people who have one year contracts. MR. ROWE(H.N.): One year, is it? MR. ROUSSEAU: One year~ 1 would think. MR. ROWE(W .N..:l: Ts the minister responsible for his department, JM - 2 Mr. Chairman, or not? Who answers for the employee he is talkinr about? ~IE_._ ROUSSEAU: Okay, one year. MR. ROWF(H.N.): Hell, she maybe surnrised to hear that. NR. ":_~~USSEAt!_: Tint anyway. - MR. ROBERTS: The minieter maybe surprised when the hon.

Premier hears it. !'-ffi~ ROUSSEAU: Mr. Chairman, 810

February 22~ 1973 Night Sessir,n Tape 271 JB-1 You know, I am quite willing to answer any sensible question posed hy the opposition, quite willing but let us not start playing thP ~ames tonight and try and ruin a persons name Hke he did this afternoon. Okay. There are points to be raised. I accept these ,mints. Thev are well taken and I am ready to stand up here and answer every question that I can answer,as accurately as 1 can MR. NEARY: Could I ask the honourable minister another sensihle question if that is what he is looking for, Mr. Chairman.

On December 15th, 1972, from a press release from the honourable the Premier, department of the office of the Premier, dated issued December 15th, 1972. Release time and date immediate. 11 A news story hroadcasted this morninp- stated that a new nssistant. Prs~ Terry Neary, was recently hired hy Premier Moores at a snJarv of $15,000 a year. This is an incorrect statement and the Premier said that she was hired at secretarial pay to do research wort for the government on handicapped oeople and rehabilitation.

It is intended that she will work 1n the Deoartment of Rehabilitation and Pecreation, under the honourab1e Josenh Roussenu,as soon as his new denartment is set up.# The Premier said that she was hired ,1t secretnrial vav. Will the honourable minister tell us how m.anv secretaries in his deoartment are getting $8,000 a year or is this to he the new salary for secretaries in the honourable minister's deoartment? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: There are at least fifteen or twenty in the civil service. MR. ROBERTS: Name two. Name two. Would the honourahle r,entleman name twv?, W-nat does the minister's private secretary get?

MR NEARY: t4R ROBERTS: $6,612. Corne on, name them. Identify. 811

February 22, 1973, Tnpe 272, Page -- apb Night. a half dozen in the whole civil service. The lady who is the Premier's secretary would get $8,160. HR. OTTENHEIMER· The lady who is my secretary but is not the same person who was my secretary when the last est1rriates came out has resigned from the civil service. HR. ROBERTS: Miss Betty Duff,she was the former private secretary to the PreFlier of this province and presumably the administration carry on her on ... rrR. OTTENHEIMER!

Her salary is identical-'lwhich is the usual case. ?·'.3-_.JOBERI._S.: Yes, ag:reed,and a r;entlemanly and a decent thini it is to do and I commend it. She is a very fine secretary indeed, a very fine secretary. a very fine lady. Name some others now or identify •.• ~'R. OTTFNHE1HER~ No, I am not at li})ertv to do that 'fR.~0J£..RJ_S_: The point is, Fr. Chairman, that no secretaries are paid 58.flOO a vf'nr, this is straight political patronage.

AN HON. t-ffMBER: There is one .•. ~Ji9~~- One~ There is one now and may I ask the minister - AN HON. ~rEMP,EP· Are you s.:winr that there is a limit on the salaries to be pa_j.d to secretaries? FR. ROBERTS: Of course not: With this crowd there is no limit on anythinr;. Now, Pr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister would indicate, he is obviously not going to deal with the secretaries ouestion and the rrentleman from St. :lary I s did not know what he was talking khout I hut could the m1nister give us his assurance please,as the minister to whom this lady it to he responsible, Mrs.

Neary, that she will not get a retroactive adjustment in pay in the course - and I am going to as¥. that oucstion~ !'fr. Chairman, on every position in the estimates. If there are 20,000 positions, I am prepared to ask it every time unless the 1wvernmcnt will give me an assurance that there will be no more of this retroactive - and I know much more than I can say, I wish I could say it. I wish I could say. Will the minister give us the assurance please, with respect 812

February 22, 1973, Tape 272, Pa~e 2 -- apb Night. to 'Mrs. Neary? l."? .• ROHSSEAU: Yes. HT'.-'...._Rp,!F~T~~· T thank the honourahle 11entleman. ~-~:.Y· Now. Hr. <:hnirman. let us get hack to the lady 1 s oualifications. The honourahle Premier sa:f.d in a press release thnt she was hired at a secretarial salary. Will the honourrihle minister tell us if the lady can type. if she cnn take shorthand. if she has any backrround for research on physically handicariped, mentally retarded children. What her experience is, what qunlifications the lady has for this p11rticu1ar ,ioh.

Is there anybody in the r:iinister 1 s department presently on the payroll qualified to do that kind of work that would lite to get n promotion? MR..:.~..'.!'~ Were there public calls for applications? MR. ROUSSEAU: The answer to your ouestion is yes. ;,rrt. NE_!\RY:_ The answer to what is yes? !1!..·_ ROUSSEAU: The nuestions you asked. MP,. NEARY: I asked the .. , MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes she can type, yes she can taVe shorthand, HR. NEARY: I asked the minister to inform this committee if the lady could type t 1R.

ROUSSEAU: Yes she can type. ~~AJ_~: Can she take shorthand? t,!!3,. _ _ROUSSEAl_~: Yes. ~_'......B._~ARJ.: What is her flnckRround for doinr research on physically handicapped and mentally retarded children? The lady is workinp: with neople who nre doing research 813

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 273 NM - 1 MR. ROl'SSEAU: She is co-ordinating, gathering information. She is gathering infonnation from different sources for mv office. ~iR. ROBERTS: Could the minister expand on that a little please, Mr. Chairman. If she is no longer a research assistantt as we were first - it is like the Minister of Justice, as we get deeper into it, its gets, 11 curiouser and curiouser, 11 PS the Mad Hatter said. Would the r,entleman please expand on it? What research is she co-ordinating? She is no longer research assistant, it turns out. Now she is a co-ordinator of research assistants.

Would the gentleman expand please? MR. ROUSE_EAU: I did not say that. I say she was co-ordinating research, that does not make research co-ordinator. MR. ROBERTB: Oh 1 see. Excur::e me. Well would the honourable ~entleman dilate upon her duties please? MR. ROUSSEAU: I have already told you and I will tell you again what her present duties are - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, to a Point of Order, l got tripped up on this the other day, and if I am going to get tripped up, let the gentleman from'Labrador play the game too. He cannot call us "you". we have to be 11 honourable gentlemenn.

I stretches myself to think of some of them, but anyway it is okay. ½R~ ROUSSEAU: Far be 1t from me to infer the honourable gentlemen are not honourable. MR. ROBERTS: Sir, whatever the honourable gentleman wants. MR. ROUSSEAU: The honourable gentleman 1 s words, we will let the people of this province judge that. MR. ROBERTS: Right. Anytime the administration want, and no Bill Saunders this year. Anytime. The Premier will get a dissolution anytime he asks for it. He will not have to ask three times this year. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well George McLean is obviously going to be available. CH 1 OJ.'1

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 273 NM - 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: Presently the lady is co-ordinating research, to me that does not connote the term research co-ordinator. MR. ROBERTS: Plays football but is not a football player. MR. MARSHALL: On a Point of Order, Mr. Chairoan, if the honourable Leader of the Opposition cannot abide by good plain manners he can abide by the rules of this House and allow the honourable minister to speak in silence. MR. CHAIRMAN: The point is well taken.

The honourable member ha5 the right to be heard in silence and provocative remarks from either side of the House tend to disrupt the good order of the House - MR. ROBERTS: On a Point of Order, Mr. Speaker. MR. CHAIID1AN: The Chair is not finished speaking. If honourable members wish to speak and interject remarks, they would do so but rising in their place to a Point of Order. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Your Honour. accept the ruling humbly. I assume that Your Honour will make sure that it applies to all members without the attention being drawn from now on. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The impartiality of the Chair has not been challenRed before and indubitably the Chair will be impartial. MR. NEARY: Maybe I am not making myself clear to the honourable minister, but would he please tell the Committee what qualifications this lady has for this particular type of work? Did she work at it before? What experience does she have? MR. ROUSSEAU: I appreciate the honourable member's deep and personal concern. The lady has been involved in a number of voluntary organizations. She has worked with very many of these organizations. Formally she has 813

February 22, 1973 Tape 274 (night) PK - 1 no training, if you want to put it that way. But I think the honourable member will accept the fact~ I do not know whether he agrees with it or not, but I do not always think that a person with a lot of normal formal training necessarily can do a joh.

This is a department that vas created with a special emphasis on the physicially handicapped and the mentally handicapped of this province and the need for a person who can appreciate the needs of these people uas apparent, In my estimation this lndv hni't an appreciation of the needs of these people and that makes her qualified. NEARY: }fr. Chairman. I ;;.,onder if the honourable minister would name the orgmdzations that this lady was associated with that makes her qualified for this position. The honourable minister does - Mr. Chairman, to a point of order.

Has the honourable gentleman the right to he heard in silence, Sir? AN HON. MEHBER~ No. _!lOBERTS; No? :i-.rn. CROSTIH'. · Fr. Chairman, we have been listening for the last two or three hours to repetition upon repetition and Hrs. Neary in my view has now heen discussed quite enough. The honourable minister does not have to give the list, the voluntary organizations that she helong to or did not helong to. This government have seen fit to appoint Mrs. t<eary to a post of research assistant,particula:r responsihility in rehabilitation.

She will do far more in that job than the honourable i~entleman I s ,some of his appointments did when he was Minister of Helfare 1 including his friend Al Green ,whom the honourable minister had as his executive assistant,getting $5,000 a year while he was also employed in a full-time civil service job. Now you know anyone's patience cnn crack under this constant repetition. We believe Mrs. Neary to he capahle of doing the piece of work that she has been given to do. If she turns out not being capable of doinp: it,her contract will not be 81G

February 22, 1973 Tape 274 {night) PY: - 'J renewed. She is a far finer appointment than many of the honourable gentleman had made. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I really do not give a hoot for the honourable gentle.man's opinion that Mrs. Neary has been discussed long_ enough. I know the honourahle rentleman arrogantly thinks that if he says something is okay, it is okay. But we have as much right to he in this Houfie as any honourable ~entleman. AN HON. MFHBER~ Inaudible. MR. IH1BFRTS: Mr. Chairman. would you please ask the honourahle gentleman opposite to hear me in silence? members ?,qually? Mr.

Chairman, do the rules protect all ~ffl. fHAIR.~AN: The rules rlo protect all members equally and of course the Leader of the Opposition has the right to be heard in silence. The fact of the matter is that this matter has been debated at len~th and repetition~ of ar~uments are goin~ to result in indiination from either side of the House then, Ifthe honourable members would abide by the sug~estion, it is getting close to the time to move on to other matters. YR· ROBERTS· Mr. Chairman, with respect, Sir. It is not repetition. Ny collear,ue asked a question, it was 817

Night Session. February 22, 1973 Tape no. 27.5 Page l - MRW Mr. Roberts. the first time that that question had been asked$ The question grew out of remarks made by the honourable minister~ Now if the honourable gentleman, Sir, does not wish to answer the question, of course 1 that is his right. We cannot make him answer a question. We may then make some comments on his refusal to answer a question. That is surely within the rules, Sir. As I understand committee, the rules of the committee are that the committee 1IJN/ debate. Am I correct? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The minister may refuse to answer questions - MR~ ROBERTS: Of course! If the minister does not want to say even one or two of the voluntary organizations in which Mrs. Neary has been, even the Progressive Conservative Party, a voluntary organization in which she has been active - MR. CHAIRMAN: If an honourable minister decides that an answer is not warranted,then that is not commented upon by the person who asked the question~ MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, that is the first time in my life - I have been in this House now seven years, Sir, and I sat in those galleries three or four years more - AN HON.

MEMBER: He is talking about questions on Orders ,of the Day. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Come on, Your Honour may be speaking of questions on the Order Paper or a minister's refusal but not in committee, Sir. this government or any government coming before the House - MR. CROSBIE: You are giving the ruling now, are you? Committee is HR. ROBERTS: No~ I am not! Does the Chair want us to wait while the committee adjourn while Your Honour gives the ruling? AN HON. MEMBER: What is the point of order? ~fR. ROBERTS: There is no point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: Carry on! 818

February 12, 1973 Tape no. 275 Page 2 MR. ROBERTS: I will carry on, if the Chairman will keep people quiet. The hon. gentleman from St. John's West~ is he going to obey the rules or are the rules only against this side? Is that what they wantqMr. Chairman? MR. COLLINS: We have been sitting here for four hours. MR. ROBETS: Mr~ Chairman, the hon. gentleman from Gander can sit there for forty-four hours, he might learn something. MR. COLLINS: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: You can learn how loathsome - MR. CHAIRMAN: l would like to dr,at,1 to the attention - MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, is the honourable gentleman calling any of us lonesome? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to draw to the attention of all honourable members that we are discussing head of expenditure, III, Executive Council, and we have now digressed into an academic discussion on the rules of order which is not the order of business we are supposed to be discussing. MR. ROBERTS: Has Your Honour ruled that we cannot comment upon the refusal of the minister to answer a question1 I am not sure if that is the ruling of the Chair or not. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is a hypothetical question~ MR.

ROBERTS: It is not hypothetical, Sir. I wish to comment upon the honourable gentleman's refusal to answer the question. MR. CHAIRMAN: question. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable minister has not refused to answer the Mr. Chairman, then I will put the question again at the risk of repetition. Would the honourable gentleman, the member for Labrador West, the minister designate (I am not sure what portfolio he holds) recreation and rehabilitation - MR. ROUSSEAU: Rehabiliation and recreation. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry - rehabilitation and recreation~ I humbly 819

Tape no. 275 Page 3 Mr. Roberts. beg the honourable pardon. MR. ROUSSEAU: Do not be so sarcastic. MR. ROBERTS: Me be sarcastic ? Not after the honourable performance tonight, Mr, Chairmnn. I would not dream of being sarcastic. MR. EVl\llS: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Sir, the hon. gentleman from Burgeo always has something to add, it is too bad he does not act. I wonder if the honourable minister, Sir, would indicate some of the organizations to which the lady in question belongs and for -whom she ha.s worked on a voluntary basis?

The importance of the question, it goes without saying, is that the honourable gentleman has brought it forth as part of the Justification for his decision or the administration's decision to appoint this lady to a posttion. MR. ROUSSEAU: The honourable gentleman does not have the list of organizations. The honourable gentleman will certainly get the list and you may have the information at that time. MR, ROBERTS: Will the honourable gentleman undertake to table the list in the House, please, Sid !!R. ROUSSEAU: in the House. !!R.

ROBERTS: Yes, the honourable gentleman will table a list That is .,.~.. decent of him, Sir. I am grateful. I wonder if the Minister of Justice has yet the information he agreed to table this afternoon, relevant to Dr. Peters? MR. HICKMAN: What did 1 agree to table this afternoon? MR. ROBERTS: Oh, Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman agreed to table the Order-in-Council of October 12~ MR. HICKMA.'1: I did not. 823

February 22, 1973 Tape no. 275 Page 4 MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: The honourable gentleman agreed. On the contrary. MR. ROBERTS: On the contrary, the honourable gentleman did. He may have changed his mind. MR. HICKMAN: On the contrary, MR. ROBERTS: Let the Hansard be sent for. MR. HICKMAN: Let the Hansard be sent for? MR~ ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman also undertood - MR. HICKMAN: Let the Hansard be sent for? MR. ROBERTS: Right~ Let it be sent for. The honourable gentleman also - do I have the floor, Mr. Chairman? MR. HICKMAN: You will have MR.

ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman also undertook to table the contract of employment between Dr. Peters and Her Majesty's Administration. Now he did undertake to do that, Sir. If the honourable gentleman doubts it - now he may have changed his mind, that is fair enough. Maybe the big meeting that was held in this building after 6:00 P.M., maybe he changed his mind but if so, let him say so. Has he the information which he undertook to table, Sir? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, I read the Order-in-Council or the Minute-in-Council of October 12, 1972. I have no intention of tabling the Order-in-Council.

I have no intention of tabling any contract. I have given 821

February 1973 Tupe 276(Night) JM - 1 the information at my disposal and all the information that is available nnd thnt is all I have. MR. ROBERTS: In other words, Mr. Chai nnan, the hon. gentlerean has changed his ninrl. This afternoon he undertook - HR. HICKMAN: The hon. gentleman has not chrmged his mind at all. HR. ROBERTS: I am sorry, Mr. Chnirm:m, the hon. ~entleman has changed his mind. He did undertake this afternoon to table certain documents and if he does not wish to table them now that is fine, let it be judged. Obviously again, Sir, there is sometllinp to hide.

When people will not table information, Mr. Chairman, there is something to hide. MR. CHAIRrfAJ'>l: The hon. member uil1 please be reminded we are discnssinr. Head of Expenditure 111 - Executive Council rmd Head of Expenditure 11 - Legislative was passed this afternoon. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, would Your Honour please expound on the ruling:? 1 was referring to remarks on Head 111 this afternoon. What did I say that led to an out of order ruling? 1 mean was T out of order, Your Honour? I was referring to remarks made on Head 111 th:is afternoon bv the hon. Rentleman.

Could Your Honour please tell me where I went wrong? MR. ROBERT_§_: Thank you! MR. NEARY: Nr. Chairman, I wonder if 1: can get back to the hon. memher for Labrador ~Jest down thPre or the hon, acting Premier, I do not care who answers the questfons. He are told bv the ninisters that this lady was hired on or about tl'ovemher 1 and the minister admitted that he was not sworn in until sometime in December - MR. December 1. December 1, so obviously the minister knew nothing at all abont the hirinp; of this particular lady and whnt the terms of her contract were.

He will not admit it but obviously he did not know anvthing about it. But what I would like to ask the minister is what 822

February 22, 1973 Tape 276 (tli~ht) JM - 2 this ladv did :in between the time she was hired and the time she was transferred to the ninister's department? Where wai:; her office locnted and what dirl she do rluring that time? 1:1!(. ROUSSEAU: In reply tn your question,she was doinR: at that tirr1e the same thinps that ~he is doing now. MR. NEARY: For t-1frnrn was she doing it, Mr. Chni.nnan, because there was no mtnister at that particulnr time?

HR .• ROUSSF:All: For the same person then us she is rloinr.: it for nm-1, the H"i.nister of Soci:;1 Services and Rehahilitnti.on,in which the rehnhilitation unit is contained. MR._B_EARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, would the hon. minister answer the second part of my question and inform the committee where the office of this particular lady was located. MR. ROUSSEAU: I think the hon. member knows quite well where th1.., offic'e of the lacly was located. MR. NEARY: Nn, !'fr. Chat-nnan, I do not know where it wns locatPt!, I want ---- ~ ----~-- the hon. minister to tell the committee>. ~~R.:.-.J-.~I~tSJ:'.2': Mr.

Chairman. 1 would like to offer some exolnnation. have sat nnd listened to this si.llv, stupid kind of quest:ioninr. This innuendo :md inference of all kinds of things that appear to the hon. gentleman fro~ Bell Island to be wrong~ it µets to th~ point where one cannot takf, any more of it, Sir. Maybe we should tell hin some thinns which he knows but whic.h he will not admit because he has a way of knowing a whole lot of things,that is in relotion to the Departnent of Sncic1l Services. MR.- NEARY: (Inaudible). Now if you want the information sh11t tm and listen.

Are you going to shut your mouth and listen until you get it? AN !!ON. MEMBER: (Inaudihle). HR. HICKEY: May l have a ruling. Your Honour? 823

February 22. 1973 Tape 276(Night) JM - 3 im. ROWE(H.N.): To a point of order, Hr. Chairman. The hon. gentleman knows that he is out of order and that he cannot say that sort of thing. Ile should be asJ.·ed by the Chair to withdraw, number one and number two, Sir. Your Honour has already ruled a~ainst irrelevancy during this debate this afternoon and tonight. May we have the same rulinr, against the hon. pentleman as he is warbling on there about somethinr that has no relation to Head 111. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, - HR.

CHAIRMA.~: The hon. izentleman - ~-=-- HICKEY: I offered some information as the form.er Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, my hon. friend across the wav mipht have forgotten but I did not, I was minister when this lady was hired and I am offering to irive some i.nformation as to why she was hiredt

February 22, 1?73 Tape 277 (night) IB-1 where her office is and the purpose for which she was hired and the work she is r,oing to <lo. iiow. does the member for Bell Island w;mt that information? Can he contain him.!1e.lf? Can he just he rptite till 1.1e r.ive it? Shoot. I wnnld not take a chance on that because mv afm might hf' tno r,riorl. ' 1r. rhairmnn. urs.

Nearv was hired ,11ccorrlinµ to mv information, mv discussions with the Premier.hecnuse the Premier is particular!lv interestP.d i.n the neon1e and the chil<lren ,,,ho ;1re n~ta.rded thrnuthout this Province, r,ennle wl-:o nre disahlec,I- in this province. none of whom t-'P have n redster ot record on todav.

Tf thts 1adv does nothin2 else hut hring tn this p:overnment an accurate record and re2istrv of every retarrled ner~on in this province. clisahled nerson in this provi.nce.thPn i=:he ,,·ill have darn well earned her sn]arv, somethinr. whi.ch thP former minister rficl nothinr nhC\ut while he was minister for thrPe vran: but nov al 1 of the Rudden he finds so much wronP with this nnnointment.

As 1 underRtand 1t, thii:; is some of the ,,mrk tlrnt this lndv is to dn apart from the co-ordination of the voluntarv orpanizations i.n an effort to make life a little morP tolerable and nleasant and tCl hrinp.: as many retarded children Pho are in care of the government at this time and who wil 1 be comi.n$! into care and tn n1ace them in Rhome settinJ;!. Hr. Chairman, I do not know whv the onposltion would find so much fault in this kind of an apnointment. ls there anvone in this nrovince who needs more attenti.on~ who are deservinf; of more attention th;m the dfc;ah1ed and thP retarded?

Is the memlier for Bell Tsland, fr; the Leader of the Opposition or in fact all the members on the other side against thiR kind of new approach to the disabled, the retarded? Is that it? ~avbe Mrs. Neary, vhen she is finished with the rest of the oeople in the province, might look in the opposition to complete that registry.

February 22, 1973 Tape 277 {night) JB-2 MR. NEARY: '!.fr. Chairman, I thank the honourable mini.ster for the tnfonnation hut I am afraid th.at the honourable m:inister must have misunderstood what this is all about. Ve are in committee of the whole Sir, to discusn certain hendings under Supplementarv Supply nnd to get information. I do not recall anvbodv on this side of the i:-louse criticizing the m.1nc,intment. We nrc onlv trvin_r; to find nut what it is all ahnut. AN 1-iONOFR.ABLE MEMRER: That i.s what I toli! vou. '-ff!.

NEARY: Then the honourable minister lnunchs into an Attack nn the opno'{it:ion for hPinp; ~r;ainst retarded children.

Pell, Sir, T want to sav to thP hnnournhle minister and the hont>11ra.t,1e Min1~ter of Rehnhi1itntion thnt there are any number of emnlnvees in the Devartrnent nf PchnPilitation and ~errention nnd Social Services. ;mv number of emnloyeeB who have manv venr<.: nf exnerience in deal inp with child ve 1 fare and retarded chi l rlren ;m<l physicnll v l1nnd1.capped children who would he verv hnnnv, Sir, to take that particular position for SB,00f1 tt ve:.r rmd are a lnt more ounli.fietl than tliis narticulnr !adv. Thev ,lid nnt ITt>t the chance, Sir.

Thi!" i;:; the ki.nd of apnointment that de.moralizes the derinrtment. •m HTC:KF'.Y • - ""'~ ---- It is hard to listen to this kind of p.;nrhRge. \v'hv did the hnnournh1e ministP.r not take some action when he was minister for three vears1 MR. NFAPY: T hnve the floor • ..__1P. HTf'KEY· Put tin or shut un. Get off with this nonsense. '·1P~~O_!lFRT .. ~. Mr. Chairman, ohviouslv the minister is making n fool of himself,as he usually does. !-'P CHAIRf1AN: When honourable members rise on noints of order. they shiuld rise on noints of order rather than on noints of debate. "fr.

Chairman, I was looking for i.nfnrrnation. We want to find out vhv this nnrticul,u l;i.dv was selected for this _ioh, what her qualifications were. how the Premier or the minister arrived at her salary. That is all we. t-:tmt tn knnw. Sir. He are not nF,;ninst retarded children. The former administration did more for mentally retarded children in this nrovin~e than that crowd over there will do. 826

February 22, 1973 Tape 278 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: What about Exon Eouse? What about Halfway House? We w-1..11 come to Exon House later. Sir. We will find out how the staff over there were demoralized for the very same reason. HR. CHAIRMAN: Would the honourable member keep it in mind that we are discussing Heading IIl - The Executive Council. It is getting pretty close to being probably irrelevant at the present time. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Chairman, the honourable minister was allowed to make his statements and the honourable Minister of Finance was allowed to make his, so I have a right to comment on what they said.

The honourahle minister who just took his seat was going to tell me but he did not tell me where Hrs. Neary 1 s office -was located? Now I nm going to ask the honourable minister again. Where was the office located? I am sorry. I did not mean to be sarcastic, if I sounded that ,._..ay because if I recall last week in the House the honourable member for Bell Island indeed said where the lady's office was. So I thought you knew it. In case you did not, it is the eighth floor. MR, NEARY: The eighth floor. MR. ROUSSEAU: You mentioned last week in this House. MR. NF.ARY: No, Mr.

Chairman, all I said last week was that I saw this particular lady two weeks ago use a key to the Premier's private elevator to get up to a floor, I do not know what floor the lady went to. Now the honourable minister tells us the eighth floor. Now will the honourable minister tell us if anybody else occupied that particular office? MR. ROUS SF.AU: That question is bevond mv competence to answer. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let the Acting Premier answer it. if the honourable minister does not know because this is before his time. Did anybody else occupy this particular office on the eighth floor? MR.

HICKMAN: Oh! the honourable Leader of the Opposition occupied it with a great deal of distinction for a couple of years, Mr. Chairman, there were all sorts of gentlemen. There was one gentleman there who worked for a whole year preparing membership cards for the Liberal Party~ 82'7

February 22, 1973 Tape 278 PK - 2 Then when he finished, well I am not competent. to cor:unent on who occupied it for the next two years. The office,Bince this administration too over the office was occupied first by - what was her name? AN HOH. MEMBER: Miss Feaver. HR. HICKrt\N~ Miss Feaver, was it? Ia that her name? f..Ji HON. MEM1lER: That is right. MR. HICKMAN· When she vacated the office my recollection is that Mrs. Neary moved in, when Mrs. Neary vacated the office, Mr. Gerry Korbai moved in, he is there all by himself sitting behind that small little desk~ MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chainna.n, now would the honourable Acting Premier tell us when Miss Feaver vacated the office? MR. ROBERTS: To further that,Mr. Chairman, is Miss Feaver still on the payroll of the public treasury of this province:" If so, what does she do and may I ask where she does it? This is Head III, she was on Head III. She is not on the payroll under Head III of that I can assure you. MR. ROBERTS: Well has she left the government service? MR. H!Ci:CHA.N: I think so~ But you will have to address that question to some of the other ministers because it is not in my department* MR. ROBERTS: But, Mr.

Chairman, I will address it, if the honourable minister will tell me to whom I should address it. But she was paid out of this head, the list tabled last year by the Premier. By the way another question 1 is the Premier, you know, if he is still Premier what has happened? Is he going to be around? Is he gone away? MR. HICKMAN: The honourable Premier is gone away~ he left this evening, as the honourable Leader of the Opposition has heard,by the press,to meet with Premier Bourassa. MR. ROBERTS: No, I did not hear it by the press~ The only thing that 828

February 22, 1q73 Tape 278 Pl( - 3 I know about the Premier. as I was coming out of Elizabeth Towers hts driver was sitting there - HR. HICJQ~Jl_,_: Right. MR. -~_!?JH:RJJ_:_ ~ s 7ing he was going to take the Lord and Master to the airport. MR. HICK}tJ1,_N: Rip:ht. He has now pone. MR. ROBERTS·. He was waiting .for him to come home at seven 0 1 clock. !'-fR. HICKtfAN· He hat gone to Quebec to meet with Premier Bourassa. HR. Nt:'.ARY: Hr. Chairman. I wonder if the honourable J\ctinp Premier will inform the committee if they keep attendance records on the eighth floor? MR. HICKMAN· No, I have not the foggiest idea.

MR. N.f.ARY_:_ t·e·i 1 could the honourable Actin~ Premier find out? Recause I have a very good reason for asking that question. MR. ROBERTS· Yes,and further wou1il the honourable Acting Premier while he is at it find out when Miss Feaver left the pavrnJl, if she is left? When she left? And what her duties were? At?nin •e have reasons for askin~. HR ~llICK~-fAN: I am sure you have all 1:in<ls of reasons, with great sinister thoughts. Hr.

Chairman, Hiss Feavcr, my understandinR was that she was the secretary on the staff of the Premier and was responsible prirnarly for looking after district mail and doing the typing for whomever. I presume then it was the honourable Nfnister of Tourism, was then his secretary. She was primarly the secretary to the then parliamentary assiRtant to the Premier. 829

February 22, 1973, Tape 279, Pagel -- apb !light. Other than that . .J did not: check on her. Pr. Chairman? the honourable actin)? Premier ••. MR. ROBERTS, HR. HICKMAN: J have not seen her around this building, Mr. Chairman since October or ••• Not seeing her around the building does not mean that she was not on the payroll\> that is the point of it. She is not on the payroll now, r1ay I ask when she left? We have not seen her around the building: either, Hr. Chairman, that is the point of asking. I will undertake and this is a firm undertaking.

I will find out for the Leader of the Opposition the date that Miss Feaver went off the payroll~ HR. NEARY: Could we get that information, 1.1r. Chairman, before we pass over this subject? MR. ROBERTS: May I ask what department she has been transferred to. AN HON. '/'fEHBFR: I understand it is the Department of Tourism. '.HR~ RO~.!- Would the gentleman of tourism, the t,finiater of Tourism designate,tell 4s if she has been transferred to his department? MJ';.;._]_G__TI,_E~: Yes. that is correct. }{fl. ROBERJS,: Are we talking about tourism now, Your Honour? AN HON. MEMBER: No, no tourism. HR.

ROBERTS: There is no head for tourism, there is no head under which the honourable gentleman is being paid - I do not know where he is heinp paid. I stand corrected and I will say that she has been transferred to the Department of Economic Development. }~ERTS~. Ah! Well, we will come to that head in due course. t;}L NEARY~ }'r. Chairman, we have another minister in on the net, all tryinR to cover up for the honourable the Premier. Fools rush in where ••• t-iy • lHCK}!:_\JJ_: Mr. Chairman, on anoint of order! I have been sitting here all day listening to this nonsense, cove.ring for this one - we are 8 3,l

February 22, 1973, Tape 27Q, Paize 2 -- apb Night. not suggestinµ the Housf' is he.ing mi.sled because ve cannot sui::p:est that. The implications are there and I am sure that the honourahle the member for Labrador South will rgree with me when I say that this type of imputation. this consistent and persistent attack on nersons like Hrs.Neary. is the sort of thing that I suspect the Leader of the New Labrador Party, the honourable the member for Labrador South was referring to in his outstanciinJ? sncecb the other dav. MR. ROBERTS: tlr.

Chai man, (a), that is no point of orrler and secondly, who does the honourable the ?!inister of Justice thinlr he is? No a ttacJ; was nmde on anybody. We have been tryinp: for an hour, less whatever tint> the committee rose because of the microphone husiness, to pr:t some information that is all. ~s for this afternoon, there was no - T hnd an arit;iterl cn1J, indirectly,from Dr. Peters. Ah ha! Whnt was he told? Ah ha! llf' is being attackerl. I do not know what the hnnourahle ventlernnn - if hr! told him anything. MP. HICKHAN: I hnve not seen him. Mf\..JOBERJS,: There was no imputation made.

If the honourable gentleman thinks there were some charges, let him state it. I could make a charge but I will not. I could make a charge about that interesting contract, that $28,000 that was negotiated retroactively. AN HON. MEMBER: Innuendo again. MR. ROBERTS: Not innuendo. I said I could make a charge and I said that I would not. MR. HICKMAN: Why do you not? Kiddy stuff. MR. ROBERTS: Kiddy stuff? Will the honourable gentleman set up a select committee and hear witnesses under oath? I will make the charges then if they will hear witnesses under oath. Let us see. Let us see. HR. NEARY! Mr.

Chairman, would the honourable Minister for Tourism tell us when that particular lady joins his staff? At what date Miss Feaver joins his staff? HR. DOYLE: I do not believe that is rel~vant to the present discussion. 831

February 22~ 1973, Tape 279 ?Age 3 -- apb MR. DOYLE, It is relevant to it. It is not, it is not - Night. • Chairman, I would suj?gest that up to the past week this lady was pni~ from the subhead Executive Council and that is why I want to confirm the date that she was transferred from the Premier 1 s office ro the Tievartrnent of Economic Development. The honourable minister knows. Why dneM he not tell. the corru:nittee. Mr. Chairman. on a point of order.

If the honourable pentle~an wnnts that information he can put a question on the Order Paper and pet iL We do not have the infonnation here tonight to say when somebody was appointed or on what date somebody was transferred and it is not the function here on supplementarv supply to hnve at hand every detail of information like thaL If a question is put on the Order Paper.we cnn ~et the Jnformation. He do not know when '-1 :iss Feaver was transferred, whether it was one week ago, two weeks a;:,o or two months or what exact date. How can we! ,tJL ROBERT§_: Mr.

Chairman. on that point of order, the honourable the }1inister of Finance may not know, hut sur£'ly the Minister Designate of Tourism knows. The minister does not, how can he? HP . _ J10BEJ'.fS : The lady is apparently workini for him. H~._l~j{_SHAL1:_: Hr. Chairman, on thnt point of order. The point of issue here is that the Executive Council is seeking supplementary supply. The honourable the Acting Premier has indicated the various heads concerned for vhich we are seeking supplementary supply.

We are not seekinf! supplementary supply with respect to the provision of any salary for the lady in ouest:ion, Hiss Feaver. We are not tryinp: to hide anything. As the honourable the Minister of Finance said, these questions, are readily ascertainable by placing the questions on the Order Paper. I would submit, ~fr. Chairman 1 that the ihquiry extraneous to 832

February 22, 1973, Tape 279, Page 4 -- aph what we are seekin~ monies for now are irrelevant and it is out of order. Night. Mr. Chairman, I asked the honourable the Acting Premier earlier if there was a record of attendance for the employees on the eight floor and the honourable Acting Premier indicated that there probably was~ Sir. I wonder if the honourable the Acting Premier would send to the ei)?ht floor now and have that record of attendance brought here before the committee. MR. HICK?!AN: No I will not. MR. NEARY· Cet the janitor to get it. MR. _CHAIRMAN: The honour ah le the member for Labrador South.

MR_.Jt,RT_I_!-:i_: Pr. Chairman. we have been all afternoon tryinr: to get some sensible debate on this bill before the House. I agree with the honourable gentleman from St. John 1 s East that perhaps we are strayinp: just a little bit off course. I am very :rrmch -interested in the kind of questions that my colleagues here are raisinr and T am sure that there arc ways of getting the answers to these questions. I see no reason why we should have to sit here all night debating points which could be brought up in a much more orderly fashion.

I believe that there is a way of getting on with the debate in this House without resorting to obstruction~ MR. ROBERTS: Now, Hr. Chairman, as we were saying about Head I.IT, the item or the Head under rlebate, let me first of all ask whether any money is to be paid out of this Head to Nr. Robert Nutbeem Esquire of Harbour Grace? HR. HICWAN: No. MR. ROBERTS~ May I ask then out of what Head it is to be pa:f.d. please? MR. CROSBIE: It is not paid to him here, it is paid when next year's estimates are given. MR. ROBERTS:, Well, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister of Finance - it has been

February 22, 1973, Tape 279, Pa~e 5 -- apb Night, announced that Mr. Nutbeem is now on staff,on salary, from where is he being paid in this fiscal year, please! It may not be Head III hut:! just want to know where we can debate it. Mr~ Robert Nutbeem has no connection whatsoever, Mr. Chainnan, with the Executive Council. None, not a jot, not a tittle, not an iota, not a feather, no connection whatsoever. There is no money in executive council for '4r.

Robert Nutbcem and therefore the question is nuite irrelevant at this stage~ If the honourable gentleman wants to put it on the order paper~ he will find out if he is being paid for this year and from what vote. He is not being paid from executive council. it has no connection with it and it quite irrelevant here. Well, if the honourable pentleman is so arrogant as to even refuse to indicate what department the Premierts brother-in-law is paid out of, we will ask upon each Head. NR. CROSBIE: Good. HR. ROBERTS: And we will get e no or yes ans'4er. HR. CROSBIE: Proper thinr,. l'R. ROEEETS: Rirht! Right~ Rirht on!

How they have chanp:ed. Let us ask about Pr. f:eor1?,e Hutchin!?s of Corner Brook. MR. CROSBIE: What about him? FR. ROBERTj,J What about him, that is right. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, what about him? HR. ROBERTS: Let us have perhaps the Acting Premier or (I suppose it is Actinr Premier if the Premier is out of the Province) what ever title - the }!lnister of Justice, the President of the Council, when was Mr. Hutchinµ:s appointed? Obviously he is being paid out of this subhead. Was his predecessor,Mr~ Ed Kearsey, a gentleman known to the gentleman from Labrador South, what was Mr. Ed Kearsey paid and is Mr.

Hutchings paid the same salary? May I also ask whether the job Mr. Hutchings has was advertised or whether, I am not saying it should have been, I am asking whether it was and perhaps the Actin~ Premier could also tell me 834

February 22 1 1973, Tape 279, Page 6 -- apb whether }1r.s. Nearv I s _iob was advertised or whether she was ''plucked out of the hlue' as it were, Sir? That should do on i1r. Hutchings to start with. t@..:..J.!.IClf!'!A-£': Mrs. Neary I s joh was not advertised, }!r. Hutch:ing:s 1 job was that of executive assistant to the Premier in the Corner Brook office or whatever title it carries out there. It was not advertised. Hr. Jerry Korhai 1 s job was not advertised and Mr. Hutchings was enf!aged in either September or October. His salary is $15,ono a year. I do not know what Hr.

Kearsey's salary was, but I feel reasom1hlv certain it was not more than :iLl.000 a year. The honourable the Leader of the Ooposition is quite aware that executive assistants, obviously those are not 1obs that vou advertise. Mr. Chairman, one can or cannot advertise and I am not saying one should advertise, I am merely trying to find out if one did.

Can somebody, perhapd the member from Ferryland, who was parliamentary assistant to the Premier until his move into the cabinet as a minister, could he tell us please - I am looking through the salary estimates and I do not see M· f see an executive assistant listed nt $19,000 a year~ I do not ~now if that was Pr.Kearsey or not, but again, Mr. Chairman, it is paid out of Head III. The honourable gentlemen are asking for more supply for Head III so it is a relevant ouestion.

MR. l!ICK}'AN · The $19,000 in the estimates for the executive assistant . -·------ ~' I think nt the time it was paid, I think the first executive assistant the Premier had is now the honourable the }-1inister of Public Worlrs and Services. PR. ROBERTS:_, It could have been. ~- 1HCK1'.ff!J.!_ That salary as I understand it was voted for the office in St. John's. I do not know .•• MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry, at the time this was 835

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 280 voted the honourable gentleman - MR. HICKMAN; Who was a member of the House. NM - l MR. ROBERTS: A member of the House, yes. It is for expenditure from the 1st. of April MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, might 1 clarify that situation for the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Ndt for me you cannot. MR. EARLE: You asked a question and I ,till answer it. MR. ROBERTS: I did not ask the honourable member for Fortuna Bay, MR. EARLE: I think it would stand clarification~ In the October election, as all members know, I was defeated as the member for Fortune Bay.

The Premier asked me, because of my experience in politics, to join his staff,which I did for a period of three or four months, up until the next election. I was paid during those three or four months at the rate of $19,000 a year. I imagine that is where the vote came in. I might say that on the 1st. of March, when the next election was announced,! resigned and I worked in the Premier's Office as his assistant for four and a-half months at no salary what- ever~ not one cent. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the honourable gentleman. There was no reference made by anybody on this side to him.

He worked for four and a~hnlf months with no pay. As a matter of interest: When? From what period? MR. EARLE, From the period from the 1st. of March until I was appointed to the cabinet. MR. ROBERTS: I see. I see. My compliments to the gentleman then. Of course he drew his sessional pay, but that is fine. However, I have no reference made to the honourable gentleman at all. I am aware of the fact that he resigned on the 1st. of March and that was perfectly proper, just as it is perfectly proper for him to go hack to Fortune Bay and stand for election. In March he was elected. Now, as I was saying, Mr.

Hutchings is being paid $15,000 a year. Could the Acting Premier, the member from Burin, tell us please

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 280 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: what his predecessor - what I am trying to see is whether it is a raise or the same. there is no information in the estimates to indicate that at all. MB-.:_ HICKMAN: I cannot answer,-Mr. Chairman. I do not know. MR. ROBERTS: Can the honourable gentleman for Fcrryland answer please? Would one of the honourable gentlemen undertake to get the information? Fine. How would it be transmitted to us? MR. HICKJ1AN: I will table it on tomorrow. HR.

ROBERTS: I thank the honourable gentleman - Will the honourable gentleman t;ell me please, the estimate,he said this afternoon, Mr. Chainnan, on this subhead, that among the positions for which supply was being requested was communications clerk. Would the honourable gentleman please tell me, he named the gentleman, 1 have forgotten the gentleman's name or the lady's name as the case may be - AN HON, MEMBER: Mr. J, Ridgley. MR. ROBERTS: How long has Mr. Ridgley heen employed? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Okay.

I asked because, is he the second clerk down there? ~ICKMAN: I will have to get that information for you. MR. ROBERTS: I mean. you know, the ministry come before the committee and I mean, can they send for an official? Can they have somebody on hand? These are not unreasonable questions to anticipate, I ask, Mr. Chairman, because the estimates already provide for a communications clerk and I want to know if this is the second one. There is a communications clerk position provided, it can be found on page nine of the salary estimates for the current fiscal year. These are not unreasonable questions to anticipate.

MR. HICKMAN: No. No. I will get them for you. I undertake to table whether,the answer to the question, Hr. Chairman, whether Mr. J. Ridgley is the second communications clerk~ when he was hired', the name of the first communications clerk, if there are two and the salary of both. 837

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 280 NM - 3 H .. ~½ ROBERTS: Okay, I know what the estimates are. I do not know what they are getting. We V,.now what the estimates said for Dr. Peters, we did not know -what he was getting. Now. let us come around to Mr. Dicks. Does he not work for the Executive Council? It was announced by Information Newfoundland that he is an executive assistant to the Premier for Central Newfoundland. MR. HICI(MAN: Mr. Dicks is not under the Executive Council Vote for which we ure asking for Supplementary Supply, Hr. Chairman.

I was advised by the honourable the member for Grand Falls that he was paid tmder Cowmunity and Social Development subhead. Anyway we are not asking for any money for him now. MR. DOYLE: He is serving on a one year contract~ MR. HICKMAN: The honourable the Minister of Tourism who used to be in the Premier's Office informed me that Mr~ Dicks ~as hired for a period of one year and presumably when that year is up then his status will have to be determined if he is going to stay on. MR. ROBERTS: I ask on this subhead, Hr. Chairman, because it has been announced by Information Newfoundland, that Mr.

Dicks is now an executive assistant for the Premier in Central Newfoundland. Are we to understand that his contract tenninatea,because he was hired on the 20th. or 21st. of January in 19721 The year has come and the year has gone I Sir, now perhaps the Acting Premier could indicate to us the terms of employment of this gentleman, please? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Dicks was hired as an executive assistant and my understanding and the advice I get is that he was hired for one year and it was a one year contract.

Obviously any of the executive assistants' contracts can be renewed, and hopefully will be renewed from year to year. MR. ROBERTS: The year has come and gonet Sir. MR. HICKMAN: No. I did not realize the year had come and gone for Mr. Dicks~ He was on Community and Social Development until January 31. Mr. Chairman we are not seeking any supply, certainly 838

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 280 NM - 4 MR. HICKMAN: under the Head of Executive Council for Mr. Dicks. MR. ROBERTS: What I mean is, is he being paid now or have we another charity? Who is paying him? It has been announced that he is workin~ for th.e Premier but where is he being paid? MR. HICKMAN: It looks so far as if he has not been paid at all as yet. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, that is a little broad. MR. HICKMAN: We are not asking for the money and if we do not ask for the money - HR. ROBERTS: Well then all I want to know is, Information Newfoundland sent out a broad sheet saying he is working for the Premier.

Fine, fair enou~h, no argument, more power to the guy hut now we are told he is not being paid out of the Premier's Office Vote. I accept that. I do not argue with that. Where is he being paid? AN HON. MEMBER: Fort Knox. MR. ROBERTS: That is probably the same as the Premier's Office Vote. ~UL Jt.!,_CKMAi"J: Mr. Chairman. I would assume that Hr. Dicks t who has now, according to the announcement,been tcansferred to the Office of the Premier to serve him in Grand Falls,which is a very desirable thingi will heretofore will be paid out of the Premier 1 s Vote.

But the significant thing is that in the monies that are now being asked under Head II of $70,300, there is no money in for Mr. Dicks. MR. ROBERTS: Notice, Mr. Chairman, that is a pernicious doctrine and cannot be accepted, The request is for an additional estimate for subhead 303-01 which is salaries for the Premier's Office and there is no right, constitutional or anywhere else, Mr. Chairman, for the minister to say that that dollar is designated for that.

The truth is that $22lt000 is not adequate, the ministry wish to raise it by $30,000 to $251,000 and any person who has been paid out of subhead 303-01 has a share of that $30,000, He has three twenty­ fifths of it and I submit that anything, and this is an important 8 :J 9

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 280 NM - 5 MR~ ROBERTS: point, Mr. Chairman, it is nonsense for the honourable minister to say that these people have been hired on and they have been paid out of the $221,000. lf there is not enough w~ney to pay them for the rest of the year, fair enough, so they need $30,000 more. Everybody who works on the staff of the Premier 1 s Office, including I may add the Premier himself, who is paid from that vote, is getting three twenty-fifths of that $30,000 or three twenty-fifths of his salary will come from that $30,000 item.

It is a pernicious doctrine and I am surprised the minister would advance it. It is a serious aygument. He knows better~ He should know better. All right then, Mr. Dicks ia apparently working for free 9 Well we will put that on the Order Paper too. We may be a.sl-:­ ing a particular thing. 304-01 Salaries Executive Council goes from $104,000 up to $120,000, an addition of $16,000, would the honourable gentleman indicate please to whom that increase - who has been taken on down there at what rate of pay and so forth. 840

February 22, 1973 Tape 281 (Night) l think I indicated earlier, Mr. Chairman. there are two men who have ber>n taken on, one is Mr. H. Clarke, I think his name is Hubert Clarke but 1 am not sure. He has been taken on in the planning and priorities committee at a salary of $21,000. Hr. R. Oliverio7who was T understand on the treasury hoard, has been transferred from the treasury board to the planning and priorities e:ommlttee and his salary is $21,000. MR.

ROBERTS: Now that is $42,000 the hon. gentleman - ~.,!.._j!ICK}1A:!!: There are eight new staff to be recruited,hopefully between now and the end of this fiscal year. MR. ROBERTS: Would the hon. gentleman indicate how eip;ht new people - ~:.J:Ll~Kl:__~"l\l: We 11. these will be clerical, planners - JM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: But the vote goes from $104,000, Nr. Chairman, to $120,000. ?1,.~_• .. -111-C_Kl_l;_~).: Yes, there is an increase of $16,000, ~R~--P{)J~ .. ~~1:_S: $]6,000 - Now these p:entlemen have been on at $1,500 a month.

They have heen on for two or three months and we. only haven month and bit left in the fiscal year. Were there any countervailinP, savings in this subhead? Here there any people not recruited out of the 304(01) vote as it was passed by the House? ~.:_]]_I_q(JJAl!= There appears to bi' no indication to me there is any countervailing savinrs. The indications are, Hr. Chairman, that eight ndditional persons will be recruited before hopefully this month. There is also a note here, I did not realize and the hon.

Minister of Finance can correct me on this. that additional treasury board staff are required but I thought treasury board came under the Department of Finance hut - MR. ROBERTS: It should come under the Finance Department, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: Yes. I realize that but I thought it came under the finance vote and I do not think that is very relevant.

February 22, 1973 Tape 28l(Night) MR. ROBERTS: Surely it does come under the finance vote. MR. lUCI(MAN: I thought it did. }ffi. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, now I am more confused than ever. It is not a good day for the minister and myself in communications. Maybe we need a communications clerk at $6,000 or $7,000 a year to help us. JM - 2 By the way I am informed that Mr~ Samuel Dicks was hired on February 1, 1972 for a contractual period of one year at $12,000 per annum subject to review at the end of that period. MR. llICK!!All: That is good. I got away with providing that information to the hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: What I want to know is what he did after February 1. 1973. twenty-one days ,ago? Has he been extended? MR ._J!}CKMAN: He was hired on February 1. HR, •. B:,0]3~: No, his original employment was for a period of one vear. It began on Februarv 1, 1972 for one year from the date of appointment, reference M.C. 17872. Since February this year he has been on the staff of the Premier. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I only know what we are told publicly and that may o-r may not be the truth and 1 am trv'ing to find out.

He has been but he is not being pairl from this vote, apparently and I find that verv odd. Mr. Dicks maybe a very charitable gentleman who maybe working for free instead of for Sl,000 a month, each month, every month. Now wfrnt T wanted to ask, Hr. Chairman, would the minister imlicate to us please, there are more people in this restructuring business than Mr. Clarke and Mr. Oliverio. A great number of public servants have been transferred and I am going again by the announcements to the various incrustations which are being put about. From where are they beixw paid if not the executive council vote. please?

I mean, are they being paid out of this vote? Mr. David Mercer springs to mind, he is 842

February 22, 1973 Tape 2Bl(Night) JM - 3 the only one springs to mind and he maybe the only one. MR. HTCK\,.l'gJ: I .,r rsuessinj!: at this now hut 1 would assume Mr. David Mercer is st111 hcinn- pnid under the community and social neveloprncnt vote becrmse thnt was the vote th.J.t his salary was voted under last year. was it not? MR. ROBERI~: Now that is where he was being paid, is he - MR. HICKMAN: I would assume that. Look these questions I have no, 1 do not know. )'!ll_,._ Rg_BER~: do not know.

Yes hut you cannot expect us not to nsk because vou MR • .l!J_qc¥.AN: I am not sup;gesting vou should not ask them hut T am giving you nn undertaking that I will find out how ftianv hnvc hcien transferred to the Planning and Priority anrl from what vote thev are being pai<l. HR. ROBERTS: Yes nnd ncrhaps the ninister co111d iust table thf' namt>s of the ladie5 and r,e-ntlemen involved or gentleman as the cnsc> rnnv be and from HhPre they nre now beinr. paid beer.use I nm sure thev an" bein~ r,aid,, I nm villinl' to bet n. modest amount, twenty-five cents perhapB, Sir, that Mr. Dicks is not workinp- for ch:1rity.

MR. HICKMN1: He should not he but - ~~!.._l3QI}f_R1.S: lie should not be but it is a most unusual exnerience for the minister to cnoe ;mrl ask for supply ;m<l not have anv inform,'1tion. Let me add that I appreciate the position in which the minister finds himself. What does surprise me is that in the Prenier's absence his parliamentary assistant does not handle then. I think thnt would be the i:rentleman who is full-time with the Premier's st.:1.ff, his personal staff should be reasonably au fait with these facts. 1 do not think we asked anything that is very unusual hut I may add we got some unusal answers.

On motion. Head 111 - Executive Council. carried. 8'13

Februarv 22. 1973 Tape 281(Ni~ht) JM - 4 Head lV - Finance - $463,300: t.tR. ROBERTS: Hold on now. Is the minister ~oin~ to come in or is he - Oh, the minjster is so arrogant now he is not even going to come in. Oh. hold on nov he is putting out his cicarette,I take it back. Would the minister perhaps - Host of these look fairly straightforward, Hr. Chairman. His own office is up by $A,SOO and perhaps he could indicate what that is for. A.~ HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. RORERTS: No, t doubt if the minister is doing that. I think he has enough money of his own.

There mayhe some of his collea~ues who would try that but I <lo not think he would. A~ HON. MEMBER: Name them? Name what? His colleagues. He has eighteen colleagues. A~ HON. HENBER: The ones who would take the extra salaries. -~---____ ,~ - MR._~qEERTS: I said there maybe some. The hon. gentleman would know nnd if he says name them.then he knows and let him name them. MR CROSBIJ; '--- Oh, I thouizht vou knew something that I did not know. MR. ROBERTS: 1 kno-w- much the hon. ~entleman does not know, Hr. Chrtirman.

MR CROSBIE: Yes, I am !'lure of that as you were in there lonr: enough. ~.~OBERTS: Right and not only that I expect I will kno\1 much more ~hen I get hack. Would the minister please also indicate - AN HON. MEMllER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Ex ~ratia payments, Hr. Chairman, of $43,000, what that covers please?

There is an item here entertainment,$30,000 and there is nn item of~other; T am not sure if that is the same as the general contingence vote but an item of just~other,$25,000; That is a lot of "other.'' •other" is up from $75,000 to $100,000 now and also,what is the $125,000 on royal commissions - There was $75,000 in the estimates as adopted 844

February 22. 1973 Tape 281 (Nisht) by the House, Sir, and it is now to hecome s200,noo. Perhaps the minister could indicate where that extra money is to ~o. MR. CROSBI~: Uell. it is a very tall order, Mr. Chairman, because this is supplementary s11nply wr are askinr for. These are not the esti!'l'Jates and ue rlo not have avaiJable with us information on every sin~le item as we would have - MR. RQ_ll_ERTJ_: (lnaudihle). JM - 5 MR. CROSBIE: If the hon. gentleman does not mind me sneakinp. I have been listenina since 3:1n this afternoon 1to Dr. PetrrR and ~rs.

Neary, and I am tire<l of that now and I am gettin~ a chnnce to sny a fe\J words. Now we do not hnve all the details here. This is not the estimates. They "Will be> cominP- up nnd when the estimates come un we will have nll the detnils and our officials here and everv ni"glinr little ~uestion the gentleman wants to ask we hope we will have tle nnswer for him. ~tow as far ns the 11uestions he is asking tonip,ht. ! will give him what information T have and l hope that "'111 satisfv him, S.1lari('s in the minister's office $P,':i,OO(l.

Provision was not made ir. the nriPsin~'ll estimates for the j!eneral salary incrense in the variol!s- .'>,,L,ry snhdivisions. There was nn increase in salaries during the vear of five ner cent plus another four per cent and that applies to this vote as it does to most of the others. !-,low that would include the t:>xtra $2,000 for executive assistants who now i:-et - ~-._R_O_RERTS: l ;,m sorry, it was $12,000 in the orip,inal estimates, Sir. That is right Hr. Cole was ~etting $12,000. He was a verv valuable - ?-IB.ROBERTS: Horth every cent of it. ~-. CRQ_S_!_IE: He vas a special assistant. MR.

ROBERTS: He certainly was, very special. MR. CROSBIE: He is a very r,ood appoint!:'lent and he is a man that t am 8-15

February 22, 1973 Tape 28l(Night) proud and delighted that this government made chief electoral officer. Ml!. ROBERTS: Relevancy, old relevancy Crosbie. MR. CROSBIE: Very. very proud of it. Very, very, very proud. He is a good appointment. He shines over thousands that were made by the JM - 6 preVioua administration. Some I could mention 1on the Workman's Compensation Board for example,who were a blot upon the escutcheon of the province. Number two were salaries, veneral administration,that is the general salary increase that was not provided for. Travelling

February 22, 1973 Tape no. 282 Page 1- MRW $2,500, that is due to an increase in travelling, an increase in the number of staff of the Audit and Compliance Division and the Gasoline Tax Division. Equipment Rentals: That is due to increased use of the Xerox copier. There is a lot more work being done now~ We need a lot more copies. We forgot to put in a rental of a cheque writer and signer~ The cheques are going out now on time, copies are being made, information is flowing freely to anyone who asks for it~ Computer Services: Anticipated savings did not occur and transfers had to be made to computer services.

Postage: There has been such a tremendous increase in the work done by this government in every sphere of activity that our postage charges went up by $10,000. MR. ROBERTS: Why are you asking for $50,000 anyway? MR. CROSBIE: IIR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: Or $50,000, it is five times as good as - You cannot even read. It is a fantastic increase in answering our mail. We answer the mail. Contrary to the allegations made by honourable gentlemen opposite, we are answering our mail in ever increasing hoards. There is $50,000 extra for postage.

Civil Service Commission Salaries: We are still paying their salaries, the Civil Service Commission, despite the fact all three of them are all liberal political appointments, We continue to pay their salaries and there is still increase there in the Civil Service Commission. MR. ROBERTS: Who are thev? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Robinson, Mr. Fewer and Eric Joneso The honourable gentlemen opposite get up in this House and downgrade and attack men like Harvey Cole and call them flunkies, when here is the Civil Service

February 22, 1973 Tape no. 282 Page 2 Mr~ Crosbie. Commission, and we have never attacked gentlemen like that personally. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: Nor would we say they are flunkies. But they are certainly political appointments. l!R. ROBERTS : Harvey Cole is a flunkie. MR. CROSBIE: He is not a flunkie and never was. He is twice the man the Leader of the Opposition is and always has been and alwavs will be. _MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: have him. A paid political - A tremendous appointment. The province is lucky to MR. ROBERTS: The province cannot afford it.

MR~ CROSBIE: The province cannot afford the honourable gentleman. MR. ROBERTS: Well then - (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: That is why in the next election he is gone with the wind~ In White Bay North they are gone beserker. They cannot wait to get at the honourable gentleman in the next election. MR. ROBERTS: Put Ambrose Peddle down there. l!R. CROSBIE: What a competition! We got ten potential candidates already willing to go up. Let us see now, what was my next question? There was underestimation in the original estimates for amounts to be provided under exgratia payments. MR. ROBERTS: What is the $42t000 extra? MR.

CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: Ah, ha! Oh1 ho! Oh! Better hide that.

February 22, 1973 Tape no. 282 Page 3 MR. NEARY: Are you sure that that was tobacco you were smoking out there in the corridor. MR. CROSBIE: I do not have all the items. You do not expect me to have all the list. MR. ROBERTS: I certainly do. MR. CROSBIE: You do? MR. ROBERTS: "aragon of virtues, the honourable gentleman! MR. CROSBIE: Oh my Heavens! I will tell you this that it is a lot less than it was last year, because last year there was $153,000 when you crowd got throu~h with it, the exgratia payments. They were really great here last year. MR. ROBERTS: This year it is - MR.

CROSBIE: The crowd who were getting the great share last year are 11 x11 this year. These are pension pavments, Mr. Chairman, and I do not have them all here. During the year at various times you find,for one just reason or another, somebody is entitled to an increase in pension or pension for years that they are not strictly entitled to under the act, i.e., Hrs, Muriel Templeman. 'lbere is an exgratia pavment to her in connection with her pension. She was the past Premier's secretary for twenty-three years. HR. ROBERTS: House. MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: service. MR. ROBERTS : MR. CROSBIE: Mrs.

Templeman is entitled to a pension by act of this Yen, but she is also getting an exgratia component. I do not begrudge her a cent. I do not have all the reasonable - perhaps there was not She gave noble service. We will do the same for Mrs.Nugent, It may have been something to do with that she was retiring before she was sixty or whatever the right age is.

February 22 1 1973 Hr. Crosbie~ Tape no. 282 Page 4 Chief of Police Pittman, an exgratia payment and there are a number of others~ If the honourable gentleman tables the question or when the estimates come up, I will give him the details of them all but that is just a few examples. There is nothing sinister in any of them. If he wants to ask me specifically about somebody that he suspects got an exgratia payment - MR~ ROBERTS: No! No! I am. just generally interested to know why the government are lashing out $43,000. MR, CROSBIE: Well it is only a third of what was whacked out last year. MR.

ROBERTS: That is right. MR, CROSBIE: Now entertainment - MR. ROBERTS: That makes it okay, does it? MR, CROSBIE: I can tell him that these are all le gi tima te payments. MR, ROBERTS: I do not doubt they were legitimate. MR, CROSBIE: Now entertainment $30,000 ,what is that for? MR. ROBERTS: That makes it higher than the year before. MR. CROSBIE: That is for dinners, banquets, luncheons, for this group and that group. The precedent was sta~ted by the honourable gentlemants government~ For example, ~fit is an association,having their first national meeting in St.

John 1 s, we pay for a dinner for them and there were more of these than we anticipated at the start of the year. Some of it is for entertainment by the government itself or by ministers. That would not be very high. Anyway it was underestimated last year and if I can do anything about it, I would certainly like to cut it dmrn. The trouble is that once the precedent is started, it is vecy difficult to get out of it, with all these groups. They are all worthy. AN HON, MEMBER: Lubrication. 850

February 22, 1973 Tape no. 282 Page 5 MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: No lubrication, strictly - Nothing but water and milk. Other, $25,000, that has me a bit puzzled. There must have been a lot of other this year, but I think that is the general contingencies vote to which things get charged if there is no specific provision for them. Now for some reason, they did not give me the breakdown of 1'other'~ 1 will have to undertake to get that for the honourable gentlemen.

Royal Commissions, $125,000, The breakdown there is that these were not anticipated~ We underestimated the Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Scheme, it is $23 1 000 additional. MR. ROBERTS: That is Mr. Kostnnr.ek. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Kostaszek. The family law study, we had to pay the final bills for that. MR. ROBERTS; What was the total? MR. CROSBIE: I would have to get that for the honourable -gentleman. We paid $24,000. MR. ROBERTS: My Lord! MR. CROSBIE: The total is up. I think it was about $100,000. However, that was a study undertaken by the last administration.

MR, ROBERTS: MR, CROSBIE: It was undertaken by the present Minister of Justice. and the present Minister of ,lm1tice, very interested in family life, family law. Municipal Government: Tiiat is $18,000, the royal commission that is started on municipal government. Here is an interesting one. This is a Jim dandy. The honourable gentlemen are going to be delighted with this one. Bell Island, $10,000. MR. ROBERTS: What is it gone for? MR. CROSBIE: l do not know what it is gone for but they are having 851

February !973 Tape no. 282 Page 6 Mr. Crosbie. hearing and we do not kno~ - MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR, CROSBIE: It is a very valuable investigation and we will get a report in due course. The Royal Commission on Labrador 1 $50,000. These have to cover, of course,up to the end of March~ It is not all money spent. MR. ROBERTS! How much is the royal commission? MR. CROSBIE: The Royal Commission on Labrador, $50,000 is the estimate up to the end of March. That is $125~000. Now I do not have here the information of what they cost altogether.

The 0 1 Dea Commission, that cost altogether now (I am giving an approximation. If I can remember tomorrow, I will give him the exact cost) between $40,000 and $50,000. AN HON. MEMBER: Does that include Mr. Robinette? MR. CROSBIE: No~ no, Mr. Robinette is not included. He is probably under "other~ I will have to check that. Under entertainment. MR. ROBERTS: _,'lR. CROSBIE: That is all I can tell the honourable gentleman. I will have to get him the amount on "other'; MR. ROBERTS: I am most surprised.

I thought that the minister. being a paragon~ to hear him speak at least. of virtues, would have had the information. I am wonder if he would try to get some. As he pointed out, these royal commissions are betweennow and the end of the year or between whenever they start and the end of the year. Would he undertake to get the information and table it in the committee tomorrow, please, or whenever the committee next meetsP Bell Island, $10,000 for this fiscal year. Mr. Justice Mifflin, the commissioner, of course, would be paid by the Government of Canada.

I assume his salary continues, as the government do not have to absorb that. Where the $10,000 is going - 8 "·) J ,.

February 22, 1973 Tape no. 282 Page 7 Mr. Roberts, I mean what is it to go far, how much~- I am sorry. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Legal fees. There are a lot of legal fees, Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Oh, he is getting legal~aid so is the gentleman from St. John's East (Extern). They are both getting legal-aid. Normally these bills are not submitted until the work is done. If the honourable gentleman would attempt or undertake to find out - all right, the Labrador one $50,000. Mr. Snowden is he under salary for this or is the university paying him?

He is full-time, so reasonably he would be paid a salary. AN HON. MEMBER: I believe he iR heing paid - MR. ROBERTS : How much is that please? We are paving it, the people of this province are paying it, how much is it? AN HON. MEMBER: The information will be made available. MR. ROBERTS: Okay, that is all I ask. AN HON . MEMBER: Who is the chairman again? _MR. ROBERTS: The Royal Commission on Labrador, Mr. Snowden. Mr. Goodyear is a magistrate, presumably, he is paid as a magistrate. The other two commissioners, what are they being paid, please?

I should imagine that there would be heavy travel bills for that commission as well 4 Trips to Norway, Yukon - the honourable gentleman is not going - he is not in the house • MR. CROSBIE: Has the honourable gentleman read the nWhite Eskimo!" MR. ROBERTS: Yes I have. As a matter of fact, I had dinner in Goose Bay the other night with the gentleman, Frank Mercer, the commissioner for - I am not sure what his title is, but I think he is 833

February 22, 1972 Mr. Roberts. Tape no~ 282 commissioner for Labrador Affairs - paid for it - we did~ Page 8 MIL W~ N~ ROWE: We will have him bring the honourable minister's body over the Gaff Topsails. MR~ WOODWARD: The commission are paying the National Film Board to film the hearings in Labrador~ MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: Perhaps the minister could find that out for us, whether the - l think the federal government are paying for that, at the urgency of Mr. Rompkey. MR. WOODWARD: No, it is a public spectacle anyway. MR. ROBERTS: Would the minister find out whether or not 854

Tape 283 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: the government of this province are standing that particular thought. The same with the k'helan Commission, is Professor Whelan, he was working full-time with the administration, he was an adviser in the Premier 1 s office. I am not sure as of when, but he was restructured or restructuring or something. Perhaps the minister could find out- I am surprised the minister does not have it. He is such a fount of information, but he develops a gap about the 18th. of January 1972. AN HON. MEMBER! Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: It is in the breakdown because the other will now be $100,000, even in the lush years, as the minister wnuld say, of the former administration, it was only $93,700 actunla fhe government are estimating $100,000 this year. So there are more "other" than we were •·other; Perhaps the minister could undertake to f.ind out. I am fascinated hy this entertainment, it was $55,000 in the 1971 - 1n72 revtsed estimntes, lir. Chairman. It has risen now to $87 ,ono, est:f.mnted for this year.

I wonder if the minister will undertake to table a list of the functions heca:me T arn (!Uite candidly of the impression that there have not heen as many functions as there might have heen or should have been or would have been or sometimes were. Would he also, Tam particularly intrigued with the references to misterial entertainment because I have Peen hearing the most interesting stories of ministers. I am not saying they are all true or not, one hears stories.

But the minister mentioned that ministerial entertainment was up, or is in this. $30,000 is a lot of dinners at Hoodstock,Colonial Inn or wherever these dinners are being held. Perhaps the honourahle gentleman could let us know on that. Now he mentioned a cheque-writing machine that is an interestin~ device to have, especially if there are :".0,000 less cheques this year since the mothers got the axe from the honourable gentleman and his colleagues.

Would the minister tell m; whether the government are up to date on all their bills or whether they have accounts outstanding as of. you know, current date 1st. of February? Were there accounts 85:i

February 22, 1973 Tape 283 PK - 2 outstanding? Or are the government paying in the normal, whatever it is, thirty days after the accounts are rendered? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, to deal with the last question first~ I have not had any outraged creditors of the government after me to have their bills paid, so I assume that we are paying on time and I have no reason to doubt that bills are being paid in the normal course. There may be some outstanding more than thirty days for one reason or the other. But you can certainly take it that bills are bing paid as promptly as they always have been.

MR~ ROBERTS· No, I am sorry, the minister is wrong. MR. CROSBIE: Well if I am wrong and somebody sends me the information as to some bill or other that has not been paid promptly,! will certainly look into it. I did come across a hill for $46.19 the other day. hut there had been some foul up in it, the creditor wrote me and it was immediately paid the next day. We were able to stand it. We had enough to cover it. But is there any specific case that the honourable gentleman is worried about, we will certainly check into it. Bills are being paid as promptly as usual.

I will table a list of the royal commissions and the breakdown for the honourahle gentleman. But these questions are the kinds of questions that should be on the Order Paper and can be properly answered. We are now dealing with supplementary supply. These questions can be asked properly and the answers tabled properly that is the way for it to be done not this kind of process that is going on here tonight. This is a derogation from the whole concept of supplementary supply. HR. ROBERTS: No, no, MR. CROSBIE: It is criminal. MR. ROBERTS: No, no. MR.

CROSBIE: Criminal in its intent 1 puerilismous,mischievous,vexacious, irritating, irresponsible, and there must be something else there. 8 re'." JU

February 22, l973 Tape 283 PK - 3 AN HON. HEMBER: arrogant. MR. ROBERTS: Are you drunk. Sir. Are you fueled up. HR. CJ3QSBIE: I have never been drunk in my life. MR. ROBERTS: Are you fueled up? MR. __ gl.Q:~BIF · I remember another gentleman who use to stand here and he would wave his glass. that was really ~ood water. MR. ROBERTS; Are you fueled up toni~ht? !1R. CROSBIF· But I have had more than water, hut not tonir:ht. Now let me see,vhere was I? Oh, yes, Twill p,et this thing on the royal c.om.·'nissions for you. nnd the entertainment ,if I thi.nk it looks all right I w:!.11 give you that too, MR. ROBERTS· Mr.

Chairman, the minister is becoming something like all of his predecesi:mrs now. But you know he is'wrong. Very wrong when he says on supplementary supply one may not ask questions. He can have all th£> theatricals he wants, He is very good at them. l r.ive him full mark;:;, MR. CRpJ,BIE: I do not get much chance these days. ~-~_!)RFRTS: He is very good at them. MR. CROSBIE· Not like the old days. HR. ROBERTS: He is very good, Hr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Come on over, you can have more fun over here. MR. CROSBIE: No way. MR. ROBERTS: Ee may he here, one never knows. MR. NF..ARY: You are being invited. MR.

ROBFRTS: You will never see the 11 John Crosbie" sailing down the waves of Newcastle. HR. CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, actually she is 350,000 tons that one. MR. ROTIERTS: Built to carry George McLean, is she? l'ffi. CROSBIF: No comment. M'R, ROBERTS· Now, Nr. Chairman, as we were saying before we were so rudely re-routed,the honourable gentleman can play all the theatricals he wants but that does not take away from the fact that his questions are perfectly 851

Fehruary 22, 1973 Tape 283 PK - 4 MIL CROSBIE: Well all right, all right if you want the entertainment I will get that too. All right. MR, ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman is very entertaining on his mm. And we only pay h:!.m $11 11 000. MR. CROSBIE: All right. No, I will get it for you. I cannot take it. I just cannot take it. HR. ROBERTS: I want to come back please to the minister 1 s office. These questions can go on the Order Paper. But the minister is here seeking supply, supplementary supply~ perfectly in order to ask a question~ Ifhe choose not to answer that is up to him. HR.

CROSBIE: Oh, I huve the answer on that. MR. ROBERTS: All right there is an extra person in there 1 who is it please? MR. CROSBIE; This is what happened, my secretary, Mrs. Martin, a very, very dear souL NR. ROBERTS: The lady who has been with you all along ah? MR. CROSBIE: Who has been with me through thick and thin, very efficient. She was under the office of Economic Development, ~hen I gave up that portfolio her salary had to be transferred to the Department of Finance. That I believe is why, well that is part of the reason for the $8,500, the rest is the general increase. MR.

ROBERTS: Then the minister is being a little franker than he was, a little fuller because it was obvious - but then who is being paid out of the $6 1 000 allocated for the secretary of the minister? Does the minister have t~o secretaries? I know he is very busyo Do you have two? HR. CROSBIE: Well the previous minister's secretary, Dr. Rowe - HR. ROBERTS: Mr~ Jones' secretary. HR. CROSBIE: Dr. Rowe or Mr. Jones' was being paid there• She is transferred now to Treasury Board or Collective Bargaining~ MR.

ROBERTS: So there is now only one person being paid out of 401-01 under a heading of a secretary to the minister, but for a while there were 858

February 22, 1973 two, is that uhat happened? MR. CROSBIE: That ia correct. MR. ROE.F_~_TS· 'I'hnt makes sense. Tape 283 PK - 5 Gosh I think the minister is underwhelmning me with his answers or his promises to try - the r,entlernan for Green nay, has he something to say~ MR. G~1~ Do not say anything for God's sake, he is almost through. HR. R9BERTS ! }-!r.

Chairman, the Minister of Finance has finally - if the minister would give some information~ we do not see the performance of the Minister of .Justice or one like it. ile seems to go really much quic'ker, A little information is all your humble opposition wants. The minister has given us what he had and has undertaken to get the rest. That is reasonable. NoH he puts on his usual We are use to that. Mr. Chairman, the honourahle gentleman was allm.,ed to wander on, arn 1 not to be alloved to answer. AN HON. HFHBER: No.

MR._BQBER~ No? flh that is typical arrogance of the young p.:entleman for Placentia West. 1-fR. _HARR~: Mr. Chairman, thnt is a gross insult. I do not have to put up with that. MR. ROBERTS: I withdraw the insult part that the honourahle member is arrogant. If he does not feel that he is a gentleman, that is his problem. Now as I was saying - MR. ~~Jl..Y.: Mr. Chairman, can you maintain order? I do not know. Coold you maintain order here, 'Mr. Cha-lrman? The honourable gentleman is asking?

MR. _C..!:.._AJ~MAN: I have made several attempts to onintain order, hut the honourable members presist in being disorderly,it becomes very difficult. HR. ROBERTS~ An admirable job under extreme provocation from all sides of the House,or the chamber,the committee or whatever. Your Honour is cursed with having followed a had precedent, a whole series ?f bad precedents

February 22, 1973 Tape 283 PK - 6 last year. Your Honour can hold out hope. If Your Honour is good in the Chair, Your Honour may not get promoted to the cabinet. So there you are. Now as I was saying.Hr. Harvey Cole came into the debate, dragged in by the scruff of his neck by the honourable the Minister of Finance. Will there be more debate on Hr. Cole? Not now, not tonight. I shall content myself with a few observations upon that gentleman's ahility to perform not a political appointment, I could not care less about political appointments. The previous government made them. Made all sorts of them, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Lots of them. MR. ROBERTS: Lots of them. 860

F'ehruarv 22, 1973 Tane 284 (night) IR-I rl~ht, lots of them, anv number of them. The nresent administration makeA lnts of them. "~·- Qll_~.!11'!~!!_:. Iii 11 the) honourable members keep i.n mind that we are dealing Pith item lV - Finance XtP,_H.OBERTS: •Jr, Ch:.irman, I am d@nlinp with the remarks of the honoun1h1e thP ~li.nister of 'Pinance nndPr item lV. Sure l v. that is fo order on thP debnte, ff th(' honournhJe ;nin::i:;ter cn.n make the remarks, surelv 1 am to he a11mied to deal with the same subject as he is. Is that not correct?

I notice the clerl-r is arlvising ·:our Fonour, a much f'etter noint of lm,•~or the other cle.rk is slrnkinr: his head. Thank vou, Your Honour. Than!: vou. As 1 was saving, mv comnlaint is not with the fact that Mr. Harvev Cole Pas given a lob. I think \fr. llarvev Co1e deserves a job from the Torv Pnrtv. lle has stood bv them, like the ladv the minister referrl?d to, throu~h thick and thin. 'Mfl. H. nmm: He. was not given the knife, like the ex-minister, VR. RORFRTS: No, he was not. That is ril"!.ht. He certainlv was not.

He has Btnod hv them and in the davs when there were nnt a lnt of r.entlemen of that noli.tical nersuasion in this provJnce, he was one. AU marks, n.11 power to him. Ile sometime::. r-et,:; a little heated with rnv colleague nt midday rerinr:.ts, at 11rivate n;irties. Fe P,ets a .11 ttle carried nwny. The offense of Mr, Cole, 7'1r. Chairman, and we will be hnck on it I will onlv mention it now hut since the honoumhle Minister of F:inancP mentioned -tt, surely I can.

The offense is the 'Particular ior> i.n which he is placed, It is a little like giving an alcoholic a crel"lit card at the Board of Lfouor Control to put Harvey Cole in as chief electoral officer. That is the offense, I have nothing against - the honourable gentleman needs the iob and 1 think he deserves well of the partv that now forms the administration in this province. I would be the la.st to begrudge him a joh and I can sav that when ~.Je come back into office, 861

Februar.1 22 1 1973 Tape 284 (night) IB-2 as we will be it four years or twenty-four years, the wheel will turn, that the Harvey Coles in the appropriate jobs will not be disturbed unless the Lihernl - I am sorry, pardon? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He will be retired by that time. HR. ROBERTS: Oh God, Harvey Cole never retires, boy~ He iust hangs on by his fingernails~ He will be 107 years old • The point that I am making - and I will be hauled down probably for that but let me make it anyway - is that political patronage is a perfectly normal and proper thing and this administration will doubtless indulge in it.

I do not see anything wrong with that. To their credit let it be said, they hnve not disturbed, to my knowledge,any of the political appointments of the previous administration. Thev may do it. That is fine. Once that business startsi:it is hard to know where it ends, The offense of Mr. Harvey COle - and whv,I think he is a naid no11tical hack in a most offensive position is that he is chief electoral officer.

Having said tha.t we will, vou know~ we will have a great deal more tn sav on the );.ent1 eman and 1 wish we could discuss these things without referring to an individual hut we cannot , Your Honour, one cannot. MR. C1-l.AIRXA1'4: If the honourable member would -permit and he is at the present time conducting an answer to a point of debate made bv the ~inister of Finance. The Minister of Finance at the time in his remarks concerning Mr. Cole, may have been out of order and the honourable Leader of the Opposition may in turn be out of order.

The fact that the Minister of Finance was successful in getting his remarks made is no reason to assume that the Leader of the Opposition is going to be able to oresist in making remarks that can in turn be out of order~ MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Your Honour and two wrongs do not make a right but I have said what I had to say about Mr. Cole on this point and I thank Your Honour for extending the same latitude to this side 862

Februarv 22. 1973 In-J as to thf? other side. lltllf~rP{fie, vou knov, Vf> will haven cnnstnnt harassment hnck ;md fnrth of noints of orrler. We nre mdte ns r-11nnhle. ·Mv cnlleru~uec, mid I, T think. know ns much c1ho11t noints nf order as the gentlemen on the other side. He are nidte ns r<Ynaf'le of rni<::inR: them. The hono11rahle Minister of Finance tn his credit hns not comnlnfned. He cnn take Jt. He is about the onlv one nvcr there who can. He does not alwavs take :It. He gets -frritatetl nnd vexed. He doe.s not look at all tense. Ile looks sort 01 slopnv.

H3_·-~C!{O<..:HTL,: farrv on, my son, carry on. 'H1.· . .!'5:!)E~~rs_:_ Anvvnv, J think the minister h,1!'> either hamhonzlerl 11s or Fl<ltisfied us. He vould sav h,1mf'nozled. He> vi11 p;o hnme feeling that wav. 1 think he has mnde, for him, rm honest effort,romnnre~ tn his norrnal nerfonnrmces,to answer. tl('> ~hA11 ;iwnit the ntlwr answers. Normallv T Pould not r,i ve him - all right, that is enou,ih on thiR one. lln motion , Item lV, Finance, carried: Education nnd Youth, Item Vl, $2,500 ,uno: vn. OTTENHETMf.R: Vr.

Sr>enker 1 thi.s entire amount nf S11onler:10nrarv Surinlv is under and involverl with tenrhPrs' snlnries. T rPali7.P thnt it is n large nmmmt. r think n lnnk nt the Sunr-Jernentnrv <:ur,rdv estimateR in the past few ve,1rs t-•i.1 l show thnt there hap; usunl J,, hcPn a fairlv s1pnificant underesttmati.on here. The reasons are hasicnlly as follows· There nre certain are;H; ohviously where it is verv difficult to estlrnnte with accuracv. T ;im not convinced that i.t should not be noss1.hle to esti.mate 1dtli rnre accurncv thnn han heen done in the past. J make that point.

Thrrf> is the aren of teacher urvradinp. 0) for courses on camntrn, 1 am not thinking of summer school hit teaclH•rs who take courses on campus during the course of the year. (2) thP.V take them off campus 1.n a nurnher of centers throughout the ,-,rovince nnd there nre of course these 863

February 22, 1973 Tape 284 (night) IB-l, (3) the several hundred teachers at 'Memorial University Si.Jnmer School. Of course, as honourable gentlemen know1 Mr. Speaker, the estimates are usually nrepan:d early in the year. the calendar year 1 for the financial venr of April 1~ These off-campus courses go on more or less all vear long and of course the summer school is somewhere in the period of July.

Now, the number of people who were upg-raded, the number of teachers who were upgraded in this three areas of upgrading; the off­ campus courses in areas throughout the rn::-ovince. the on-campus courses, usually in the afternoon or eveninrt during the course of the year, and the summer school courses in Julv or August, for a period from April,1972, the beginnin~ of the fiscal year.to February 15, which is the latest - well ohviouslv there would not he much change between now and then - to Februarv 15, wavs. 1973 1 was 3,250 teachers i.n:,graded in one of these three Obviously it is imnossible for the Department of Education to know, let us say, or to have known two months ago or a month ago or even now when eotimntes are beinp prenared, how many students are actuallJ going to be taking ungrading at the i:.miven;itv.

The numbers,one can make an approximation of but only. They differ as well. We have no way of knowing whether those who are going in to be upgraders are going to be upgraded from one to two or from two to three or five to six nor is there any way possible to know how many will in fact pass and he successful. In those areas of upgrading~ in the period in question (April, 1972 to February 15 1973) three thousand two hundred and fifty teachers were upgraded~ Now, the other large, important factor in this - right~ HR. ROWE: Nr.

Chairman, does he know how much of the two and a-half million dollars mentioned is attributable to that reason, the upgrading 864

fehruarv 22, 1973 Tnne 2R4 (night) TP-) nf teachers? YP:,.OTTFNHFT_t-~_LE_·_ tfo, '-fr. lhairm.1.n, J tlo not. I could undertakP to have it - 'i"P, ROHE, for the estimates. Pjght~ for the estimntirs. Yes. rizht. FNJ, the other area,<mart from w1,;:,:rnd-inP. the other area is of rourse the te;;cher Aupplv tndav. Hhcrc.as, not only years ago hut one or two vears ago, we hnrl a J ari;::e number of 1 icensed tearhers nr n certain n~mher Grade l,Grade 11 ..

Grade 111, lV, V to Vl to Grade Vlll. \·le now hnve, of course. rn:in· This is in fact a good thin' from the noint of view of the nrofessional academic 11ua1ificatinns of th-0 t<>af"her This shou]rl and I think in mm;t c:ises does hecmne tnms1ated into hettvx instruction. Tt certainJv should but ohvionslv one h;:is tn al!rec th.1t the more hi.gh1v oualifted the teacher the r>etter the SVRtPm

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 285 NM - l MR.. OTTENUBIMER; should be and the better the education should be. It would appear, and I do not have the comparative break­ down of the chart that I am going to give now, going back the last five or six years:, but I think that that would show that in this period there Yas a really significant jump in these qualifications and therefore of course the certification and the salary of teachers. Of ~ourse the Department of Education has no control over what teachers are going to be hired by a school board.

The school is looking for five teacherst as long as they work within the money allocated to them - there could be five grade V, or two Grade I, and three grade III, type of thing. Making a comparison in the teachers supply situation, between November 1971 and November 1972~ licenced teachers - November 1971, 298; November 1972, 73i a decrease and these of course are teachers very low on us, a decrease of 225; grade III, I did not: get I and II, I just want to show the tendency nnd not obviously to analize each and every one. Grade III, November 1971, 684; November 1972, 778; an increase of 94; grade IV teachers,

whereas in November 1971, 1,316, an increase of 101 November 1972; grade V November 1971, 961 and an increase of 232; grade VI, from 600 to 711, an Jncrease of 111; and grade VII from 124 to 207, an increase of 82. But just taking the grade V which emphasizes, I think dramatically underlines the type of thing. MR. WM, ROHE: Grae V - two degrees. MR. OTTENH_E.LMJ!.R1. Yes. MR. WH. ROWE: Or five years. MR. OTTENHEIHER: Or five years, right. In grade V where there was an increase of 232, to show the difference, and of course all of those names on it come from grade IV, they put us entered right into the grade v. 866

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 285 NM - 2 MF. OTTENHEIMER: But the difference in pay between a grade lV and a grade v is $1100 per year, there you have an increase of $232. These are the reasons, because of the upgrading, the fact that there were 3,-250 teachers upgraded during that period, and also the change in the resource or pool, the teachers supply, these account for the additional expenditure of $2.5 million for which Supplementary Supply is being sought. MR. t,P.,J. ROWE: Just before it carries, there seems to be something wrong with the Department of Education, in someway or other, I do not know what it is.

Every year that I was in the government, the minister around this time, you know about a few months before the financial year ended, it was always,scurrying up to Cabinet looking for $3 million or $4 million. It happens every year. It seems to me that with computerization and everything that by now we should be able to get some read-outs on what is li.kely to happy in these fields, Is that not so? I understand what the honourable minister is sayinr,. it is impossible to say how <11any people are going to go from one grade to another and all this sort of thing, but we do have a finite number of teachers.

We do have tendencies and trends over the past number of years that can be fed into the computer. to come back here and ask for what amounts to ,,, well $52 million, $2.5 million, I do not know whether that is a five or six per cent increase. A fairly laq~e increase compared to the average increase of 1,3 per cent and I am sure th.at there are some imponderables or some departments here with as many imponderables in them as the salaries of teachers, you know, So I am just wondering, Hr.

Chairman, are there any moves being taken by the Department of Education to try to rectify this situation to try to get better information from computers and try to have a better information on imput into the estimates of the Department

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 285 Nil - 3 MR~ WM. ROWE: of Education? MR. OTTB-i1iEIMER: Mr. Chairman, I basically agree with the honourable gentleman there and in fact I discussed this with officials of the department. I pointed out what I thought was a Very large amount, they then of course pointed out to me that this had been a continuing thing.

They did not really know if it were possible to get a more accurate estimate and my answer then was obviously, kncrw more about it than I do, but I suggest you check with, and perhaps discuss the whole matter with officials of Treasury Board who are experts in Finance~ I certainly hope that it will be possible to not have to come back and look for such a large amount of Supplementary Supply~ The honourable member for Bell Island asked me if it were all for teachers and I said yes* That is true, only I think the actual heading is, Teachers and Superintendents, superintendents will be a very small percentage of them.

I do not know what percentage it is, but it is a very small percentage. AN HON. MEMBER: There is nothing in there for George McLean. MR. OTTENHEIMER: There is nothing in there for anybody but teaches and there could be a few superintendents. There could be and there may not be but the heading includes 'superintendents. Head VII - Justice - $267,900 MR. HICKNAN: Mr. Chairman, this I can deal with very briefly. There are four subheads - subhead 714-01 Salaries magistrates, $12,000 was required to pay the salary for part of the year for two additional magistrates, upon the approval of Treasury Board.

Subhead 719-01 Service rental contract, R .. C.'f.LP., $156,400, the shortage in the R.C.M.P. general contract occurred because the R.C.H.P. underestimated the actual cost per man and also took on nine additional men during the present fiscal year for which we had not provided. Subhead 719-02-01 Corner Brook R.C.M.P., $2,500, the shortage under this subhead occurred because the R.C.M.P. -868

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 285 NM - 4 MR. HICKMAN: underestimated the actual cost per man. Subhead 721-02, Salaries Fire Department, $85,000, the shortage under this subhead occurred because of an increase of firemen's salaries under the collective bargaining agreement and because it will be necessary to hire in addition, and this is the real cost 1 an additional eighteen men on March l to put the forty-eight hour week into effect in the fire department on April 1, 1973.

The forty-two hour week was provided under the collective bargaining agreement and it comes into force on April 1, but the advice I received from the Fire Chief was that in order for these men, the additional eighteen men,to be functioning as firemen, they need at least one month or two months preferably of training before they are taken on. MR. WM. ROWE: I only have one question, Mr, Chairman. Does the honourable minister know or have any idea when the Steele Commission. the Royal Commission on Magistrates is likely to be received hy him and tabled in the Bouse thereafter. MR.

HICKMA.ti: I spoke to Commissioner Steele, Mr. Chairman, a couple of days ago, He is in the process of writing his report. I hope that it will be in my hands and in the hands of government while t11e House in still in session and it will be tabled fortwith, if you will ~ive me a day to read it first. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, what about these special police at Gander Airport, are they paid out of this vote? HR. HICKMAN: No, federal. Head IX - Department of Public Works, $137,000 MR~ EARLE: Mr. Chairman, I cannot give the committee a detailed breakdown of every item here, but it is very easy to explain.

By some over expenditures which could not possibly be anticipated when the estimates were drawn down, this has to do particularly the severe winter which we have experienced and a resulting increase 8G3

February 22, 1973 Tape No. 285 ~-5 MR. EARLE: in the cost of snow clearingfor the public buildings. When we read of Corner Brook, snow costing $1,000 an inch to remove, and you take into consideration that my department has something over three hundred buildings to look after in all parts of Newfoundland, a particularly severe winter can wreck havoc in the cost of snow clearing. increased item 870 This was a very substantially

February 22, 1973 Taoe 2S6(~ieht) durinp, the present year. This also caused. severe winter conditions caused nnexnected freeze ups in wnter services in some buildings ;md a certain ;,mount of rla,71.m:rc was caused which had to he rcnnircd. Then on top of thnt thf;rt! was rm incrense in 1;ihour costs in respect of tradesmen who were cmn1oycri hy contractors nnd firms engaperl in doi.np maintenance work for the depnrtment, This uns knmm ,r:enernl lv to evervbodv that dur-in~ the yenr there wns a r0nerai increase in all lahour costs nnd nf course this also applied to the work done bv rnv department.

Also th0re was an increase in t:lw cost of materials, Anv- body who hns tbe exncr:l.ence in anv huildinr or renairs during the past year knows that bui ldin,c mated.a.ls hnvc adv;:mcerl verv substr1ntJ.1l 1-v aml this affectec! the cost of our rennirs nnd 11nl:et>r,inr> of the t•ui ldinrs also. There wns :iJso nn incrPnse in tlw ware,:,s rniil to hourlv nn1<l workers I on the oncn vote enm l nvees, ns :rnthori 7.Pd bv the rovernrwnt .

The r,nvt>rnnent ,1uthort1.2d nn incre;ise in thr DfH'n vote fl<WmPnt to emn!oveef\ who were pni.(1 r,n an hourly rate an<l this a]sri nffecterl 0,1r cost tn this open vote hnurlv n;iirl emp1ovecs nrno11nt. fa'1na1 ly tht>re wns tm incrcnse cost nf irnplemf'nting nublic works carnenters to a n,1v Plnn because of the additional four per cent wnp0 incrense :mthorized for onr>n vote emplovces. There wns a fpnr ricr cent increase tn thPfaf' onen vote enp1oyee."i nnd this of course h,1d to he iirnle>rnentt'd to our puhlic works rarpenters nn<l others and this afff'cted the cost thPre.

The total increase for !'he whole denartment for the vear was $117 .non. As I said in my oreninR remarks this rovt>rR ;:i tremendous nurnhf 0 r nf :Inc.idental exnenses anrl covering some three hmHlr('d odd huil<linFs throuphout the province. Thnt tuw the reniaon, ~ir. Chairman, for n general in1;rcnse all arounrL MR.-NEARV: r-rr. Chairman, 1 would like to nsk the hon. mtnister if ht, c.ould inform the romr:iittee tf all the contrarts tlrnt were let fnr snow cle:iring anrl m.ainten;rnce work were awarded hv ruhlic tentlc>t· and if they JM - 1

February 22, 1973 Tape 286(Night) went to the lowest bidder? MR. EARLE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to report that in spite of some public comment to the contrary that all tenders for snow clearing were by public tender. They were opened publicly and the tenders were awarded to the lowest tenderer,in fact some people felt that we were being more than fair in that respect. 'raking into consideration the equipment offered, the ability to do the i ob which is also a eonsiderationj the awards were given to the lowest tenderers.

There was I believe one case where there was some dispute over the equipment which the contractors had. It was not indged bv our department to be capable of doing the work and although he was slightly lower than the next lowest bidder,it was given to the next lowest bidder because he had better equipment. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the hon. minister would exnlain to the committee just what control his department has over the number of hours that are worked actually at snow clearin~ from tre time the machines start say in the morning until they finish in the eveninF or until they have all the snow cleared? Would the hon, minister tell the committee what control his department has? JM - 2 MR. EARLE: Mr.

Chairman, it is a very difficult field to police because snow storms unfortunately do not pick the time that they are going to come1 at four o'clock in the morning or they may come in the middle of the day, and there is equipment rushed out at all hours of the night and day to do jobs. But generally speaking the staff of my department who carry out inspection and periodic checks on this keep a very careful eye on the operations of all of these contractors.

Over many years of experience,most of these men have been associated with this work for a long time, they are very adept at catching any over-charges where they think that a contractor may be trying to pad his bills~ The control is really based on the experience of the people who are inspectinp, 872

February 22, 1073 Tape 2B6{N1rht) the lobs and controll:inr the jobs. I think in a case like this vou can only rely nn the cffidency of the inspection staff that you have. what the oinister is snving the.n;that it is more or less up to the honesty of the contractors. !!I!_: __ f,}~.RLE: No. not reallv. This is checked on. .m - 3 ~-·,J!!'.'.l]~Y,: Tt is checked. 1fould the minister tell us how it is checked? \Jc l"laintain in onr department down there.

T nm only repeating mvself, a staff of hi?:hly qualifiNl nconle who go out and insrect iohs. !:~~ }'lf'-:'\P:Y: Ves hut do they know t.Jhcn they start , hecause thev are pa id bv tilt• hour? Do thcv know when they start and when thev finish'! HR. Of course. Do you think we just let them go ahend. Thev are checked on as to when they start imd when thev finish. Tt is tl1e mame svstern.

Incidentally most of the snmc men who were doinr: i.t for the fPTT'H:r gnvernment .1nd nany of these men h:ive been in tiw department for r.w.ny vears and nre entirely rclL1hl.e and they are ri1Litc cap.nhle of makinr adeouate checks which thev cnrrv on. 1'~:.. .t!E_~R~'(: nr. Chairman. T f::i.nd it very difficult tn follow the hon. minister.

What the hon. minister is saving is thnt these men in his depnrtment ,and T lrnvc no douht at all hut the.v are experienced in this particular kind of work. that they just po out and they look at the amount of snow th.1.t was cleared and they snv to the minister, "WeJ l. it wo11id take nbout ten hours to clear this nuch snow.' and so they inst rubher stump the invoice that comes in. ts th.is what the minister is sayinr, or does the contractor hnve to check in when he comes on the iob nncl check out when the snow clearing is finished? AN HON •.

HEH11ER: (Inaudible). ~-__!JEAR"'(: Hold on now I am trying to finfi out frorn the hon. minister. The hon. minister hns a new system. ~- EARLE: The Minister has not a new system. He has been following the same sy.stem, Mr. Chairman, that has been follm,;,::,d for years and 873

February 22, 1973 Tape 286(Night) JM - 4 actually I can only go back to the statement that the people who have experience in this game can take an invoice and know if a nm is overchargin~ too r::umy hours for any particular job because they go out and see what kind of a job has to be done and they know how many hours that should take anQ invariably they go out at times while storms are on and see what is being done. They spot check.

You cannot expect any staff of people to be out all night and all hours of the day checking on somebody who has a contract but there is sufficient check to be sure that there is no serious overchargini. MR. NEARY: Well, the hon. minister has confirmed what T said, Mr. Chairman, that this is all guesswork, MR. EARLE: No, it is not at all guesswork. MR. NEARY: It is guesswork. The officials of the department just say. "Well yes it probably took ten~ twenty, fifty hours to clear that much snow~ 11 There is no check on the time that the contractor came on the .lob and when he left the job.

Can the minister answer that question? Is there a check? Does he have to check in because he is paid by the hour for his equipment? Does he have to check in when he comes on the job and check out when he is finished? MR. EARLE: No, Hr. Chairman, there is not that kind of a check. If the hon. member is not satisfied that the staff is competent to do a good job then I would suggest that the same people whowere doing this job for many, many years were equally incompetent. But they are based on their experience and their long years of service and many of them grew up from people who operated this sort of equipment.

They know what is going on. It is not a reasonable request~having different storm conditions created at all tL~es,that you are going to go out at a moments notice and check the hour. If a machine goes out at four o'clock in the morning and comes back at 4:30 P.M. and all this as they are all over the place, in all parts of the country I might say~ 874

Februarv 22. 1971 Tape 286(Nifht} J~ - 5 MR: __ +NEA11!: Well, !'-'.r. Chairman, these contractors are paid by the hour and their time should be checked on. I have the rrcatest amount t,f faith Jn the nfficiaLs of the minister 1 s department but they are hcinr pair, Sir, the taxpayers money by the hour. I would subr:rit to tfw hon. minister that his depn.rtment. the hon. minister nwarded contracts th.is past ui..ntcr at such n. low rate, Sir 1 such a low rate that the contr:Jctor could not possibly fulfill his obligation for the rate he was paid. As a rr:atter of fact. Hr.

Chn'irman, - ';,!horn arc vou talking about? Th:it ts :c11J ri1~l1t. I know whom T an talking about. As a matter of fact. Mr. Chairman, T would like to drnw to the mir,Lster's at tent ion that h0 nwan1Pd n contract for snow clenrinv: for ~10. 50 an hour, T think it was. - AN HON. !-ffHlmR: Th2t was last summer. ------, 'Jo, Lt w:.:is nnt last smnr;:ier. And thnt verv narne gentleman. Sir. did not h;ive equipment to fulfill his contract nnd he went to another contractor, I checked on this and it is not a bit funnv as it is the taxnayerd rionev the hon. minister is fl:inging out.

The hon. iuninr mernher for Harbour Hain mav think it is funny. He wilJ find out how funnv it is in the next election. ~·-,12.AWE= It wns not your friends on Bell Islnn<l.was it? ~".-,,. Nff•,,1!-.Y: Hr. Chairman, this particular contractor was awarded a cr>ntrnct for Slf).50 an hour for his equipment and he renter{ eouinrient. Sir, for $24, (10 ;m hour. Now T would like the hon. minister to explain to mP how that hapnened. I would sny that particular cnntrnctnr should get the citizen of the year award, Sir. He is working,clearin?. snow for <il4 .nn less than he is receiving from the minister 1 s denartnent. Now.

Sir, T would like to have an exnlanntion for that. }~R._ IA___R_L}~_: Mr. Chairman. I do not think any explanation 1 could ;ri.ve win satisfy the hon. member but I will try. As I stated at the outset

February 22, 1973 Tape 286 (Night) of my remarks the tenders were awarded,I think with one exception, to the lowest tenderer. The prices ranged all the way from $9.50 an hour up to $64.00 an hour for clearing snow. The $64.DO an hour was in a place where there was only one snow-clearinp.- piece of equipment available and much as we thm1;;ht we were being taken to the cleaners by that,.i.t had to be done in the place and there was only one person who could do it as it wa.s in a very remote place. The S9.50 an hour people who tendered,in our estimation were tendering for low cost. I agree with the hon. member that they probably could not do it for thnt but 876 JM - 6

February 22, 1973, Tape 287, Page 1 -- aph Nipht. I gave instructions to my inspcctor·,1hom the hononratde nernheris questioning - I said; ''If anv of these 0entlemen .nnd check on the!"' very carefully,please,these contractors, if thPy are using fnultv eouipment or are fallin}!. down on the job, they have twenty-four hours notice and they are fired*v So far this winter they have performed in spite of the:lr prtces. If they go bust on that contractp that :ls their business. hut we have to protect the public money.

He .eive .it to the lowest tender and this government is always being accused of not hehaving in a proper way, but this is one instance where the lowest tender won regardless of the results. At nine dollars and ftfty cents an hour I do not believe that they can do it. If th£'v r:o bust on that,it is thei.r own fault. Next year thev will not he hack somebody else will he tendering at a higher price. }fr. Chairman, could the honour ah le minister tell ur: wh-v tenders i:ere called and then were uithdrawn and called ap,ain for snow clearing in the early r,art of the winter? Yrs, without any her.:itatinn. ""r.

Chairman, The reason f('lr that was tbnt wl1en some of the orip.inal tenders were opened, they did not have th r£>nuired denosit, the cheoue. Some of these protested and asked that thev 1w c:illed arain and they be riven :i chance. The tenders Wt>re reopened in the hope that we wouJd r,et lower f"ids. They were recalled agai.n, HR. NEARY• Th;i t j s rip ht, t•r. Chairman, I think the honoura'b] e gentleman is correct in his statement, that is i-:·hen they got tlw lover bids and then the contracts were awarded, Sir, for snou; clearinr.

In this particular case that I am thinking about, the contractor was paid ten dollars and fifty cents an hour for his eouir,ment. He rented eouipment from another contractor in St. John's for twenty-four dollars an hour. I ,nm not satisfied that the minister is givinr me the explanation. Why do you not go to the contractor and ask him about

February 22t 1973, Tape 287, Page 2 -- apb Night. it? MIL NEARY: I know how he. is doing it, I know how he is doing it, Mr~ Chain::um. SOME HON. HEMllERS: How? Tell us. Prove it, prove it, come on. I wish I knew how. MR. NEARY: 1 am dealing with the honourable Ninister of Puhlic Works. We are all here~ we are nll the same. MR. NEARY: I already asked the 1'1inister of Public Works, Sir - §Ol"E HON. NE!!BFRS: (Inaudible) Hr. Chairman, could you keep these''crackiesnquiet please? MR • CHAIRl'_AN,J Order please! They h_ave had too much wine tonight,Sir. Mr.

Chairman, what I am asking the honourable minister is - is not the system of controlling the time, ia it not wide open for abuse? Is it possible for a contractor to put in more time than he actually worked? Is this possible under the present system? MR. DOODY: (Inaudible) MR~ NEARY; Mr. Chairman, would you please keep the honourable the junior member for Harbour Hain quiet or I will nail him. Will the honourable minister tell us if the present syste.'n is wide open for ahuse·, that it is possible for a contractor to claim more time than he actually worked?

If it is so, then what steps is the minister ta.king to rectify this situation? HR. EARLE: !-fr. Chairman, I think in the orders of debate, you are not supposed to repeat yourself, but I have to repeat myself because the honourable member from Bell Island is asking the same question. There is a possibility a remote possibility that somebody could try to overcharge, but I am satisfied that with the inspection by my department officials, he would not get away with it for any length of time. This is the reason we are checking up on