Manitoba Hansard — 9 June 2006 (Sitting 87, 38th Legislature, 4th Session)

38-4-87

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVII No. 87 - 10 a.m., Friday, June 9, 2006

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

3189 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, June 9, 2006 The House met at 10 a.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Justice. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Okay. Mr. Chairperson: The floor is yours, honourable minister. Mr. Mackintosh: I am here with senior officials from Manitoba Justice, and introduce Deputy Minister Ron Perozzo. Ron has been the deputy since September 12. Pat Sinnott is the director of Finance and Administration. Kim Nicholson is the assistant to the deputy. Greg Graceffo is the head of Corrections.

Aurel Tess is the comptroller in Corrections. Mike Horn is the head of Criminal Justice that deals with Aboriginal community policing. Don Slough is acting director of Prosecutions. Jeff Schnoor is the head of Courts, and David Greening is the acting head of policy. So this is a few introductory remarks. I think we have seen some significant changes and indeed enhancements in the provincial government's approach to public safety and justice generally over the last few years. Over the last two years, for example, we have seen the largest increase in funding to policing in Manitoba.

In Winnipeg alone, 46 new positions have been directly funded by the Province, and Operation Cl ean Sweep will become a permanent unit due to provincial support by way of fine revenues generated in the city of Winnipeg. Brandon now has seven provincially-funded positions over the last few years and, most recently, we added two more positions. Working with Brandon police, they are de aling with major crimes. We are very pleased that the other officer will be assigned as a school resource officer, SRO, or police in schools, in the elementary schools in that city.

That complements the Police in Schools initiative and the SROs that are in 17 other Winnipeg and Brandon schools. The Province has helped to create and fund the successful Integrated Organized Crime Task Force with the RCMP, the Winnipeg and Brandon police to seriously disrupt organized crime at the leadership level. In the area of Prosecutions, the investment in prosecuting accused has increased by over 70 percent, I understand. We have been adding new Crown attorney positions and, indeed, there are, as I recall, I think, five new positions in this budget.

The Gang Prosecutions Unit and Prosecutions was created to develop an expertise in targeting of those accused of serious gang crimes. I understand they have prosecuted about, or they are prosecuting over 200 cases. Those are the number of active cases. We are in the process of doubling that unit and the current budget fulfils our commitment to doubling that unit. More aggressive prosecution of gun crimes began in 2005, with a new prosecution policy. Canada's first community prosecutor is now proactively targeting street crime and other locally identified priorities in the downtown and west end of Winnipeg.

The community prosecutor has had three high-profile convictions and sentences in the last several weeks, and members of the committee I think will continue to be aware of this model of prosecution which is being wholeheartedly wel- comed by community stakeholders in the downtown and West End. We will look very closely at how that model is working in the interests of public safety. The strategy led by the Chief Judge, known as the Front End Project is reducing court backlogs. We have started in domestic violence cases, and last fall it began with regard to custody cases.

With regard to provincial laws, I understand now there have been about 165 drug dens, prostitution, sniff houses and booze cans shut down under The Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act and the Public Safety

3190 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 Investigation Unit is being strengthened further with this budget. There are new investigators and an analyst position being added, and that will allow more teams to deal with these problem properties. MADD Canada now recognizes Manitoba as No. 1 of the provinces and territories in the fight against impaired driving, and we are always looking to see how we can improve our responses working with law enforcement, first and fo remost, and with MPI and others whether it is MADD Manitoba, MADD Canada, the Safety Council and others.

Women and families in Manitoba are benefiting from strong laws dealing with dating violence and domestic violence generally and child support. In the area of probation, the Criminal Organization and High-Risk Offender Unit has been focussing on serious domestic violence and gang and sex offender cases. The new Auto Theft Suppression Unit is targeting the worst auto thieves who are released by the courts, and that, coupled with MPI's immobilizer plan, is, I understand, the country's most aggressive auto theft initiative and perhaps the continent's most aggressive initiative.

That is being adjusted as we go as the suppression strategy learns from successes and failures. We are now several months into the initiative, and they are now meeting on a regular basis. The auto theft task force is meeting every two weeks now, and of course the front-line workers in that unit are meeting weekly. But there is an ongoing and daily dialogue and review of the incidents of auto theft and how to deal with this very stubborn challenge.

Yesterday, MPI announced further initiatives with regard to the immobilizer program, and it appears now that Manitobans are embracing the offer of free immobilizers for most at-risk vehicles, and that will be enhanced by focussing on vehicles being imported into Manitoba and vehicles that have been stolen and are at high risk. We will be assisting those vehicle owners with free installation and indeed prioritizing installation for new residents and giving them some good time in which to have the immobilizer installed.

The Victims' Bill of Rights, of course, unique in Canada, is being phased in for victim notification and consultations starting with the most serious offences, and that is being reviewed. * (10:10) In addition, we have been working with police to ensure the Manitoba integrated high-rsk offender unit is established in Manitoba and out doing its work. As well, it administers the sex offender registry in Manitoba.

Cybertip.ca was launched with Child Find, and I understand that approximately 1,000 porn sites have now been shut down since its launch in 2002, and, of course, the federal government and industry expanded this Manitoba success across the country in 2005. We have in Manitoba now a child-fri endly waiting room at Winnipeg and other locations at a child-friendly courtroom in Winnipeg. We have specialized prosecutors in child victim cases, and victim services have been expanded from five to 52 court locations in the last short while.

The Integrated Child Exploitation Unit has been recognized as the Canadian leader for its method to investigate child exploitation, and we link with that and support it. We have a prosecution linkage there. The high-risk offender Web site of the Province has, I understand, received over 64,000 hits from Manitobans on the release of information on sexual predators, and we have been increasing funding for domestic violence services significantly. Now, just to conclude, the Manitoba Meth Strategy is unfolding.

It has about 100 moving parts to that, and we will continue to lay out, strengthen and conclude the blueprint that is set out. It is available on our Web site and set out in our initial release. As well, that is being backed up by some legislative pieces that are before the House now. Turnabout is continuing to provide help for offenders too young to be charged under the YCJA. Light- houses will be expanded to a total of 50 in the course of the mandate.

Project Gang-Proof is being examined to expand its role, and I can go on about Safety Aids and some Aboriginal justice initiatives if the member wants to pursue that. So that is an overview of some of the initiatives over the last few years that are being bolstered, supported and continued with the current budget. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for Steinbach, have any comments? The floor is yours. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the comments from the minister.

Also, I would like to welcome the staff here from the Department of Justice, the new deputy

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3191 minister. It is not a recent position at this point, but I am sure you are still feeling as though it is somewhat recent. Congratulations on your appointment. We have a shorter time perhaps than normal for the Estimates process, not just in Justice but, to some extent, overall for a variet y of different reasons. But certainly, in the short time that we have today, I look forward to hearing some of the responses or hearing back from the minister.

I know in the last Estimates process last year, the minister undertook to respond back to a number of different issues that he did not have immediately at Estimates. Credit where cred it is due, he certainly did respond to those issues and did so in a timely fashion, so I appreciate that. Perhaps, if he sees his colleague the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton), he could let him know I am still interested in seeing, the questions that I posed, the answers in 2003 to the then-Conservation Minister, but certainly you have lived up to your end of the bargain, Minister, in the last year, so I appreciate that.

We do have, not the same list of staff on our side of the aisle, but we do have our researcher here for the PC caucus, Julie Goertzen, not a relation. I get that question now and again. There are a few Goertzens out in rural Manitoba– An Honourable Member: In Steinbach. Mr. Goertzen: Yes, and there are two Goertzens here from rural Manitoba, unrelated, and that does happen sometimes even in rural Manitoba. I do want to thank her for the work that she does within the conducts of our caucus as well. With those few comments, because of the short time frame we have, Mr.

Chairperson, I think we are ready to proceed to questions. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic for those comments. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is traditionally the last item considered for the department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of line item 1.(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in the resolution. Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates in a chronological manner or have a global discussion? The floor is open. Mr. Goertzen: Well, given past tradition and the short nature of the time we have, global fashion. Mr. Mackintosh: Defer to the opposition. Mr. Chairperson: So ordered. Agreed that we will have a global discussion. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Goertzen: Mr.

Chairperson, I will just ask the minister to give an update on his political staff in his office who have currently filled those positions, and also who fills the positions–we have had some introductions, but on the Policy Development and Analysis side of the department. Mr. Mackintosh: I forgot the most important thing I could do today, and that is to actually thank the staff, not only those who are here, but those elsewhere in the department. Some may be reading the Estimates. It has been a tireless effort.

I have been doing a lot of, as is well known, we have a reformer agenda on Criminal Justice policy, in particular, but the areas of Family Law and civil law have not been left out of that at all. In the minister's office, the political staff as well I thank wholeheartedly. It is a tremendous challenge to deal with the issues that come in each day. Of course, I am sure that is the way for all ministers' offices. Janis Bermel is the special assistant to the minister and she has been in that position since I was sworn in as minister.

My executive assistant who is available to do constituency work largely and assists with the appointment processes is Patrick Sarginson. He has been in place for at least a couple of years, I believe. If the member wants a date I can find that. On the MPI side, Pauline Riley, I believe she is called an executive assistant as well and she has been filling that for a couple of years. Then on the House Leader side, as the member knows, Erin Crawford has recently been appointed to that job. Rory Henry has moved on to the Policy Branch.

The second part of the question, then, was Policy Development and Analysis, and what has happened there, Jeff Schnoor was a long-time Director of Policy Development and he was successful in the competition to be the Assistant Deputy Minister of Courts replacing Irene Hamilton, who went on to be Ombudsman. David Greening is the acting director now of Policy and has been in that branch, well, since I have been here, 10 years, and David Greening, along with one or two other people only in Manitoba, actually knows and understands every

section in The Highway Traffic Act of Manitoba. The other staff in Policy, five positions in Policy Development, and they are currently filled by Dina Bruyere, Darlene Jonsson on term, Glen Reid has

3192 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 been there for a long time, and he is seconded from Prosecutions, Glen Lewis, who has been there for quite a while, and Veronica Benderski is the assistant over there. There is a competition, I understand, ongoing for the director's position. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that response. Moving on, and we are going to move through different topics quickly, obviously, because of the nature of the Estimates period this time around.

Could the minister give us an update on the prison populations in the provincial prisons, including the Remand Centre? * (10:20) An Honourable Member: I am just going to watch. Mr. Mackintosh: As Greg, who watches carefully– [interjection] It is sort of a visual thing that we do as well here. This is today. I want to make that clear. Today, meaning this date. On the youth side: Agassiz, actual in-house population today is 67; Brandon youth is 2; the Manitoba Youth Centre is 147; The Pas youth unit is 3; a total of 219.

On the adult side: Brandon is 197; Dauphin is 54; Headingley is 639; Milner Ridge is 107; Portage is 59; The Pas is 85; the Remand Centre is 331; for a total adult of 1,472. The total population is 1,691. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister. I do not want to be presumptuous. I am not sure if those numbers are available on a daily basis or if today was a special day because it was Estimates day, but are they available on a daily basis? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes. Mr. Goertzen: Thank you.

I think, going through the Estimates book if I remember correctly, I did not mark it so that is my responsibility, but I think that there was additional staff added to Corrections to deal with the population numbers. Is that correct? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, in terms of FTEs, there are an additional 8.8 positions to deal with the adult side. In addition, I am advised that the Corrections Division will staff up if there is a need, depending on populations and other pressures with part-time positions that will not be reflected in that number, but that is the formal full-time position count addition. Mr.

Goertzen: Is there some sense of what the need will be for part-time or on-call staff because of the high population numbers? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, we can provide that information on a timely basis in terms of the current part-time contingent, but we are going to have to careful in terms of how that is displayed and measured. We will use, I guess, the traditionally accepted method, if there is one, and how that can be measured and reported, but we have those numbers. They will just have to be compiled. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister and his staff, their undertaking.

Again, they have been proven to be good to their word on these things. Also, has the department done an analysis on what they might expect for increased numbers in Manitoba prisons once the new federal legislation on the restriction of conditional sentences come on, which I know that both the minister and I have supported? Mr. Mackintosh: It is proving to be a challenging task for provinces to determine. For one very important reason is we do not know what the legislation will read like when it comes out of Parliament.

It is a minority Parliament, and I have never seen justice legislation that has not been amended in the House of Commons. So that is first of all. So I think we have to be cautious on any expectations based on that. In terms of the existing draft of the bill that is presented to the House of Commons, there are a number of variables at work there. The current bill includes many property offences, for example. It includes theft over, for example. It includes B and E, for example. I can go on. There is quite an extensive list of those offences.

Even with some violent crimes, the question remains as to what will be the judicial behaviour in response to the new legislation. Will the courts in Canada, instead of ordering conditional sentences, and given now that they would not be available for those offences, move to incarceration, or will they instead move to probation, fines, conditional discharges, suspended sentences and, indeed, the federal minister was of the view that suspended sentences may pick up in terms of their currency?

So that is a huge question, and I think one has to conclude, though, that it will have an impact, I believe, at the higher-end offences. Certainly, I am very concerned that on the driving-cause-death cases,

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3193 that we do get results that were consistent with the intent of the legislation. There still is no mandatory minimum to bring that home. But that is the intent of the legislation and that would be the expectation if that is how the legislation is worded when it comes out of the House of Commons. So, with regard to those serious crimes of violence and those driving cases that have caused so much undermining of public confidence in this province and elsewhere, I do expect to see an increase in rate.

I think, as I recall, when the Justice ministers of Canada looked at this and when the study was completed by the five provinces that put the study together in terms of the cases that were attracting conditional sentences, their view was that there would be only a slight change in incarceration rates. But we are hearing, from some analysts across the country, very serious concerns that the incar- ceration rate could skyroc ket.

More recently, from Ontario, I understand ther e were some figures from there that I am not privy to, but I did hear that there were some discussions at a recent officials meeting where they had projected very serious increases. I think the conclusion is there will be an increase, I think, reasonably in the incarceration numbers, but the extent of that cannot be determined and will be more fully judged when the legislation is concluded.

I think there is also some ongoing discussion in terms of whether the legislation should more properly be brought into force on proclamation rather than Royal Assent, in order to have that kind of analysis concluded and changes made as necessary by the provinces in their correctional facilities. The other conclusion, though, is that the change will be gradual. The sentences will come in one at a time, as they do every day. It will not be an immediate change. I think that reflects some of the ongoing discussions that are taking place. * (10:30) Mr.

Goertzen: Can the minister indicate then, he had referenced the Ontario study and I have heard of that as well. Is there any sort of analysis that has been done in the department? I recognize the difficulty of determining what the end product is going to be on the legislation coming out of Parliament. Has the department undertaken any analysis on a preliminary basis, even on the current legislation as it is being proposed? Mr. Mackintosh: I just have to be very cautious with these numbers because, as I could say, there are just too many variables.

We could not accurately at this time predict judicial behaviour and where the courts may go on this one. So, if I put a figure out and I said it was even a maximum, then I suspect it would be quoted as the figure, and I do not think that would be fair. So I think the best, the safest, way to proceed is that we will continue to do the analysis. We will be sharing that kind of analysis with other jurisdictions and looking to see what kind of variables they work into their calculations.

I think the best way, and indeed we can come back to the member with what is developing over the coming months, but it may be that there will be a better sense of the measure that is appropriate for these cases. Officials just met this week, actually, to discuss this for the first time across the country and started to share some of their methodology in their analyses. As I say, some of the numbers were quite significant in their difference across the country. So I think that is the safest at this point. It is, I think, premature, given the status of the legislation.

We have tried our hand at calculating the impact, but the numbers, I am told by the department, have to be considered soft at this point. Mr. Goertzen: I am comforted to know that the analysis has gone on. If th ere is further information the minister can provide in terms of the results of those analyses, recognizing some of the variables that are in play, I would appreciate having that brought to my attention. A question regarding the new women's correctional facility. Have tenders gone out on the facility and can the minister indicate what the proposed budget is for the completion of construction? Mr.

Mackintosh: The community consultation committee comprised of Elder Gladys Cook, former chief of police of Brandon, Dick Scott, and the Women's Transition Centre director, Lucille Bruce, provided the report on March 31, 2005, to the government with a number of recommendations on how to proceed. On the receipt of that report, the Department of Transportation and Government Services and Justice then analyzed each of those recommendations. The pros and cons and cost issues were considered.

So it was earlier, a few months ago, we recently announced that the government would accept all of the recommendations in their report, and what they said there was the facility should be

3194 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 located in the St. François Xavier-Headingley area for a number of reasons. One of them is that by far the great majority of inmates were from Winnipeg, were on remand in Winnipeg and, as I recall, I think about half of the workers were from the Winnipeg area. There were issues about access to services and counsel as well as court facilities that went into their recommendation.

The departments then, with Government Services now being, of course, responsible for the construction and the tendering process but in consultation with Justice, are proceeding with the consultations on the design stage right now. That was one of the recommendations: how the facility should be configured in term s of programming space and living accommodations should be concluded as a result of the consultations. That process is underway. There is a significant number of stakeholders who are being consulted on that. That was very important. It was made clear to us that there be that involvement.

So the tenders will go out when that phase is completed over the next several months. We have a target date for when the facility will be completed, and we will certainly keep an eye on ensuring that the time lines can be met. This has been quite an interesting process. We announced our acceptance of the AJIC's recommendation of a new facility in June of 2002 and immediately were confronted with some very strongly held views in terms of what the facility should be like and where it should be, so we thought the only way to proceed fairly was by an independent community consultation committee.

I want to commend them for their tremendous work. They really became a great collegial effort. We are now proceeding, then, to replace this terrible facility that has been there far too long. Now, there are some issues in terms of the size or the number of beds at the facility that will have to be concluded in the coming months as well. First of all, the conditional sentence impact will be important to that, and second of all, the role of the federal government and its interest in partnering with Manitoba Justice will, as well, have to be concluded.

There is a real interest, I think, in being able to allow federally sentenced women to serve their time in Manitoba, and this has been recognized by the federal government. They have expressed an interest in partnering, and we will determine whether we will conclude an agreement or not with the federal government. That will be their call, but we certainly are keen to facilitate that kind of partnership.

I understand that there are discussions about how that would look in terms of how they would contribute, both on the capital and on the per-diem side, and we await the conclusion of those discussions that the department is involved in. I think that would fully answer the question. Mr. Goertzen: You missed that one component about what the facility is projected to cost. I am advised that one of the nu mbers the minister has put out there is $25 million on the facility. Is that still current? * (10:40) Mr. Mackintosh: When the design elements are finally known, we will have a concluded cost.

The initial estimate was in the range of $25 million, I understand. It was a conceptual cost based on the nominal number of beds that could change and that would not include any federal components. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that. We will move to some other issues. In December of 2003 th e minister put forward that the new legislation regarding cross-border policing would be put into effect. Can the minister indicate if there has been any application of that legislation to date? Mr.

Mackintosh: I have seen a number of these come in over the last several months and just last week, and I understand that there are three more in today to the department that will cross my desk. The Winnipeg Police Service is the authorized authority, and they advise, then, when they have made authorizations. Mr. Chair, I have seen applications from Ontario, in particular from the OPP, and I am very pleased to see this act operating on the ground here now in providing that kind of assistance.

I understand that the move to grow the adoption of this legislation across the country is resulting in some other provinces bringing in the legislation. I think Nova Scotia recently brought in legislation. As I recall, Saskatchewan is on board. I can get the status of that. In some provi nces there is very careful consideration of certain particular points that to the casual observer may not seem significant but have been of serious concern. I think of Québec, for example, where there was concern about the oversight mechanism, and we believe that the model that Manitoba has adopted is the right one.

I have been urging my colleagues to do that. I have been working with the Canadian

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3195 Professional Police Association over the last two or three years to encourage its adoption in other provinces, and, indeed, I have had personal discussions with Québec, my counterpart there on this legislation. I hope our vision and that of the CPPA and I am sure all the other police in Canada is to see a relatively uniform adoption of this model in Canada. But I believe that the model in Manitoba is serving us well and it is, indeed, the model, though, that was recommended by the Uniform Law Conference and by the policing community.

So the answer specifically is that we will provide the actual numbers to the member but I can assure him that it has been used and is continuing to be used well. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that. So I look forward then to getting the number of applications and the number of times it has been approved since the enactment of the act. That would be appreciated. Also, in 2003, the minister indicated or announced legislation regarding The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act to allow the Court of Queen's Bench to order a seizure of property.

Can the minister also provide either in committee or in the future the amount of property that has been seized under the act? Mr. Mackintosh: We are not aware of any applications. I will make additional inquiries, but none has certainly come to our attention. We have some concern about the application of the legislation, and that is one of the areas that the special counsel on organized crime is looking at to see how we can ensure that the legislative tools made available for law enforcement are available generally, are useful to countering organized crime and crime generally.

That is one part of the mandate, and I look forward to any advice that may come from the special counsel on that. Mr. Goertzen: I would like to thank the minister for his response. I look forward to the confirmation that there has not been any application to date under the act. November 29, 2002, The Civil Remedies Against Organized Crime Act, introduced by the minister, if he could indicate any applications that have come under that act. I know there are a number of different possible applications regarding with- holding of liquor licences. I think that has been utilized.

Also, businesses knowingly being used for unlawful purposes, whether that application has been utilized, where two or more people have conspired to commit unlawful acts or are likely to commit injury to the public, whether that has been utilized. Mr. Mackintosh: I am advised it is best that we should confirm any numbers there and we will let the member know. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate the undertaking by the minister. April 29, 2004, Manitoba partners in an innovative companion program for victims of crime. It is regarding the Victim Companion program. Could the minister give us an update on that program? Mr.

Mackintosh: That initiative is run out of MCC. That is headed by Wilma Derksen. It is a very commendable initiative to help victims of crime, and I think is a great innovation. Does the member wish to know how many victims have been assisted in that program? We will have to ask Ms. Derksen for that information. I would be more than happy to provide that. If there are any other measures of that program, perhaps the member could let me know now so that we can pursue all of the answers at the same time from Ms. Derksen. Mr.

Goertzen: Sure just for clarification then that would be great in terms of the number of victims who have been assisted through the program. Also, I noted in the release from April 29, 2004, that Manitoba will be contributing $70,000 for the next two years as a pilot project. So, perhaps I have missed it, but I just want to confirm that that program is then going to be continued on and funded through Manitoba Justice. * (10:50) Mr.

Mackintosh: The funding is continuing in this fiscal year for that initia tive, and the contribution goes from Victims Assistance grants, that is the victims' trust fund, and it goes to the Mennonite Central Committee. There has not been any curtailment of that grant. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that. I think that is positive. On July 12, 2000, a new policy from Justice was introduced on jailhouse informants, whether or not to use the information from jailhouse informants.

It was noted that a committee would be making decisions, and a registry would be kept by the committee of decisions about whether or not to use–and I

3196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 apologize to staff, by the way, for the comings and goings. I know we are kind of moving around different areas. Could the minister indicate whether or not that registry is still available and if he could provide an update to me on that? Mr. Mackintosh: I am advised by Prosecutions that the registry has been used once for a jailhouse informant. That was the only application. That reflects, indeed, what the intent of the overall initiative and the response to the Sophonow recommendations was. Mr.

Goertzen: I understand from the release that the registry is a public document. Could I just get a copy of that? Mr. Mackintosh: We will advise the member whether that can be public or not. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that undertaking. On April 7, 2005, The Criminal Notoriety Act was brought forward. Can the minister indicate if they have had any application of that legislation to date? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, as I said at the time, it is our hope that it will never be used, and so far it has not been. I understand that legislation is being accepted across the country.

We said at the time of its introduction and at FPT meetings since, at least on one occasion, that that works best when all the provinces would have that legislation on the books. I think, most recently, Alberta has introduced that legislation. Ontario was the first province to introduce that legislation, and ours is based largely on the Ontario model. I think the other provinces are following variations of Manitoba and Ontario's approach. I, indeed, hope that it will be a deterrent as well–that is part of that–but I hope it is never used. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for the response.

On November 19, 2001, The Fortified Buildings Act, can the minister indicate how many times that piece of legislation has been used in relation to biker bunkers or anything else in the province? Mr. Mackintosh: The last numbers I have are as of February 15. If the number has changed, I will let the member know, but as of that date, the legislation has gone to work on 12 occasions for the removal of fortifications. It has been, according to the Public Safety Investigation Unit, a useful piece of legislation.

I know officials from other provinces have come to Manitoba or have been picking the brains of those in the unit. I understand it is being adopted, as well, outside of Manitoba. I cannot recall the provinces that have been contacting us. I think Saskatchewan recently introduced and proclaimed this legislation.

I think it is a useful tool in the toolbox, and I cannot recall if the member has had this conversation with me before, but this came from consultations that we did with some expertise in Québec, where the approach there, and I think in Ontario was to have this kind of legislation promulgated on a municipal basis or on a local or regi onal basis. I was advised that was not the ideal situation at all, that province- wide legislation was preferable. I think, as a result of this legislation, we have had some use in Manitoba.

This has led not only to the removal of the fortifications as one of the stated objectives of the legislation but has resulted in some very strong partnerships with police and, for example, we had a fortified drug house that was discovered to be the base of, allegedly, a $1.4-million marijuana grow operation. In that case, the Winnipeg Police assumed the investigation of the grow op following our inspection.

So I think, like The Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act, it has led to criminal investigation, and I think that this legislation, along with the safer communities act, has been wholeheartedly welcomed by police, because of that synergy and that sharing of information, evidence and intelligence. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that response. June 13, 2001, there was a release put out regarding a collection of outstanding fines and restitution, new proposals to assist the government in collecting those fines.

Can the minister indicate, on court-ordered fines in Manitoba, what the out- standing fines are that are to be collected from the Province? Mr. Andrew Swan, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, we have increased the tools for collecting fines over the mandate. I recall that in 1999 I think there was one position in the whole department responsible for fine collection. So we began the development of a fine-collection unit. In this budget, there are enhancements for fine collection, for staffing and targeting of larger amounts.

So we have not only increased the legislative tools, but, as well, the resources, and we

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3197 continue to use collection agencies, as well, or one collection agency that we contract with for assistance in that regard. * (11:00) I could go through a list of some of the changes. I note here the advice I have is that the amount recovered annually increased from about 1.8 million in 2000 to 8.8 million in '04-05 as a result of enforcement action, as I recall. This year, as of February 14, 2006, the collections have already recovered $9.5 million and will exceed '04-05 recoveries despite a reduct ion in fine orders.

Last year the department placed almost 56,000 driver's licence holds. They issued 418 garnisheeing orders, and as of February 14 in '06, the department has issued 515 garnisheeing orders and has over 36,700 driver's licence holds in place. So these increased recoveries are both due to better enforcement tools and the more timely use of them. In most cases, offenders pay fines without the need for enforcement, but when necessary the department has been stepping up its action.

So the advice I have here is that since 2000, we have recovered over $28 million actually by withholding 86,000 licences in total–so that is as of February–and garnisheeing over 1,600 debtors' wages or bank accounts. We have seized pe rsonal property of 126 debtors and placed liens as well. We are working with Revenue Canada to further enhance our tools, and now under active consideration is how vehicle registration holds can be better used to provide another tool. I hope the member will find that useful. As I say, most of the fines are paid voluntarily.

It is when they are not, and those are the numbers I was talking about, that the department has to step in there. But, we will see over the course of this fiscal year the development of an even more robust collection process and resourcing because we have more to do. I think, historically in Canadian justice systems across the country, it was an area that was not getting adequate attention, and so starting in 2000, we have embarked on this path of stronger laws and stronger collection efforts. We will continue on that and report progress.

I think we will see some more significant progress as the new staff resources come in later this fiscal year. Mr. Goertzen: Could the minister indicate, I know that he gave some statistics on the collection rate over the last couple of years, but could he indicate what the outstanding balance is for fines in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Mackintosh: We can crunch some numbers further on that and let the member know. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that. I find it hard to judge success without knowing sort of what the overall target is, and so I look forward to seeing that from the minister.

He refe renced, obviously, that there are new initiatives going forward on fine collection. I notice in the Estimates books, on page 79, under Supplies and Services that there is a significant increase, and it is noted in regard to the funding for the Fine Collection Unit. Is that increased allocation result of staff, or is that contracting out on collection under the Supplies and Services portion? Mr. Mackintosh: The efforts will engage collection agencies in terms of fo cussing on larger accounts and, as well, to proactively make calls before these matters go into any seri ous arrears.

It was discovered, as a result of our efforts, that the timeliness of interventions was important and so we will be trying that. So I think that adequately deals with that question. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for the comments. Moving on to issues regarding sex offenders in the province of Manitoba and notification to community, and I apologize again to the staff for the movement of chairs.

I have had concerns raised to me and I am sure the minister has as well, in fact I know the minister has as well, from people in communities who are alerted that a sex offender, convicted sex offender, has moved into the community, often by schools or by day cares or places that people feel particularly vulnerable with those type of offenders in the area. They are concerned because there is not community noti- fication. Sometimes schools have said that they are concerned that they have not been notified.

Can the minister just sort of walk through a bit of the process by which community residents might be notified about a sex offender who is moving or taking up residence in a particular area? Mr. Mackintosh: When it comes to the notification to communities or smaller numbers of individuals in the communities of high-risk offenders it is, of course, inherently the ambit of law enforcement to provide that notification. It may not just be sex offenders, but the police are certainly entitled to make notification, weighing the relevant factors and the risk. Indeed there has been litigation, most

3198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 recently in Ontario, about the law and the tort of negligence with regard to the role of police in providing warnings or notifications to persons deemed at risk. But it is the police, of course, that would make the risk assessment and weigh that with any privacy interests that may be at stake. * (11:10) Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Now, in Manitoba, in addition to that inherent jurisdiction of the police and their ongoing role with regard to notification, we have the Community Notification Advisory Committee here.

How that works is that, before the release of a sex offender, there is a risk assessment done by, usually, federal or provincial correctional authorities. If there is a concern based on that risk assessment, then the police will be notified, the police in the jurisdiction where the offender is intending to reside. The police then have the Community Notification Advisory Committee available to pursue advice in terms of whether there should be a notification and, if so, what should be the breadth of that notification.

Notifications can be made generally, and we see them sometimes on the television or in the news- paper, or it may be specific to a community or even perhaps to just abutting neighbours, but that is entirely dependent then on an assessment by the advisory committee of the information that they have available. The police then would be given that advice and may well act according to CNAC's conclusions. The police though, of course, are free not to accept that advice and indeed on many occasions, they do not even take a matter to CNAC.

They may just do a notification on their own and indeed sometimes, well, I should just say that whether the matter has gone to CNAC or not, then the Manitoba high-risk offender Web site provides another tool for public safety. That was established in April of 2003, and the Manitoba Justice Web site displays the names and photographs of high-risk sex offenders who have been the subject of a full public notification by one of Manitoba's police forces, whether or not CNAC was involved. So again the police are the trigger for the notification. As of February 2, there have been 63,347 visits.

That has increased since, I have about 65,000 now. Ever since it was established, the number of visits to the Web site has steadily increased. I am advised there about 2,000 visits to the Web site every month. So that is to provide ongoing notification and was recognizing that when you just had a flash on the television screen or an

article in the paper, that would disappear by the following day. We thought it was important to augment that with using the relatively new technology of the Internet. There are two sections on that Web site. There is the current notifications and then there is the previous notifications. In the current notification section, that shows all the media releases issued by the police in the past year about high-risk sex offenders and usually has information on the past offences committed by the offender, the area of the province where the offender is expected to live and the type of person who is at risk, for example, is it adult females or children. The second

section in that previous notification

section has information after the notification has been displayed in the current

section for a year, and there is more limited information about the offender there. The offender information will remain in the previous notification

section until the offender provides the deputy minister of Justice with proof that he or she has received a pardon for the offences committed. Manitoba was the second province to introduce this after Alberta. So that has been the system in place in Manitoba but it more involves law enforcement than any other stakeholder or any other

section of the justice system in Manitoba. Mr. Goertzen: Maybe for greater clarification, the minister could indicate then the applications or the offenders that go before the CNAC committee. The committee then makes a recommendation to the police about notification? Mr. Mackintosh: It is this important distinction that CNAC is not the decision-making body, it is an advisory body.

It is comprised of a number of skill sets and approaches, and it provides, I think, an examination of the pros and cons of the different types of notifications that could be available, but it recognizes the inherent jurisdiction and, indeed, the common sense responsibility of law enforcement to make the final decision. Again, too, though, at the front end, it is the police that trigger the CNAC process. If the member is interested, we can provide statistics on the number of cases that have been considered by CNAC and the notifications that have resulted.

They provide independently from Manitoba Justice a report to the public on their annual activities.

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3199 Mr. Goertzen: That would be great. I would appreciate if the minister could indicate how many offenders' cases were brought before CNAC and, then, as a result, how many notifications came forward. Does the department keep statistics then on re- offences of individuals who might come before CNAC who find themselves re-offending on the same sort of sexual charges as a way to measure the success of the recommendations coming out of CNAC? Mr. Mackintosh: CNAC notes those who have been referred multiple times to CNAC.

So that is one of the functions and that will be recorded and reported in their annual reports. Mr. Chairperson: The Minister of Justice. [interjection] Oh, honourable minister from Steinbach. Mr. Goertzen: Make sure you correct the record on that one. You would not want to leave that. [interjection] Yes, I know, it is hard to imagine. I think the Deputy Speaker of the House called me the Leader of the Official Op position last week, and that is very career-limiting if you do not correct those sorts of things. I thank the minister for the response.

The AMBER Alert, I know the minister in the past has been a proponent of the AMBER Alert in the province of Manitoba, and Child Find Manitoba lists the Manitoba AMBER Alert plan on their Web site. Can he indicate how many AMBER alerts have been issued since the enactment of that program? Mr. Mackintosh: I am very pleased to announce that there have been none so far and I hope it stays that way. More than anything else, I hope it stays that way. The AMBER Alert program was developed with Child Find. I should just make a few comments on the record before moving to the next issue.

I want to thank the media in Manitoba, the broadcasters, and the police and Child Find for coming together with Manitoba Justice to make sure we had an AMBER Alert program and protocol in the province. We were early on in developing this compared to the other jurisdictions, and we are in the process of strengthening AMBER Alert in two ways.

First of all, the member may be aware, but we have an agreement in principle with Minnesota and North Dakota to conclude a network so that if there is reason to believe that an ab ducted child is heading to or is in either of those two jurisdictions, that an AMBER would be triggered by those states and vice versa. So that work is being nailed down now in terms of the contact individuals and ensuring that the protocol is in place. * (11:20) Mr. McCaskill, in our department, has been tasked with that responsibility.

The Winnipeg Police Service is currently the co-ordinating– [interjection] The RCMP are being the contact now. It has been the Winnipeg police, but because of the rural com- ponents, it has been decided now the RCMP would be the single contact. The other job that is ongoing is to establish a network across Canada, and the Member for Minto (Mr. Swan) has been worki ng not only on the state protocol but on the provincial protocol. So we are working away with the diffe rent provinces there that have expressed an interest in concluding a protocol, and we are hoping to nail that down in the coming year.

There are a lot of issu es there. There are some variations across the country, but it is our intention to deal with those and that is well underway. There have been two exercises, two AMBER Alert exercises, to help en sure that the system is going to be effective in responding, but it could happen any time. It could happen today. I hope not. I hope it never happens, but I know that North Dakota recently had an AMBER tri gger, and we hear across United States from time to time of these horrible instances.

As I recall, I think, since AMBER began in about 1996 in the United States, there have been about 250 abducted child returns. It has been proven to be effective in being like a Neighbourhood Watch, if you will, for children when there is a high risk of abduction. Now, there are criteria. It is not every abducted child. There are very strict criteria that the police will adhere to before triggering an AMBER Alert.

It has to be high risk, and there are some measures in terms of, you know, it has to be a person under 18, and it has to be a confirmed abduction by a stranger or an abduction, parental or non-parental, where the circumstances lead police to believe the abducted child is in danger of serious bodily harm or death. There also has to be sufficient information to share with the public that could assist them in locating the abducted person and apprehending the suspect. It is not just to do it for the sake of doing it. It is for the

3200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 purpose of getting the return of the child and apprehending a suspect. The police in Manitoba have the protocol, and I think those are the current issues with regard to AMBER Alert. I want to thank the Member for Minto who took on some of the work to strengthen AMBER Alert and ensure that we were beginning the development of the networks which Manitoba has been the lead on and, as well, to make sure that the organizational efforts are sound here in Manitoba. I believe that, in Canada, there have been AMBER alerts triggered in Québec, Ontario, B.C.

It is most unfortunate. Mr. Goertzen: Thank you, Minister. We certainly support AMBER Alert, and we would agree that it would be a good thing if it never had to be used. I just wanted to ensure, of course, that the program is operating the way it should in case it ever has to be used. The minister then is saying, I guess, by his comments, I understand it is an RCMP-triggered initiative now that there have not been any cases that have met the criteria, which is why there have not been any AMBER alerts. Mr. Mackintosh: That is correct. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that response.

In the past, I know there have been reviews regarding Crown Attorney workloads in the province of Manitoba. Can the minister give an update regarding the workload of Crown attorneys within his department? Whatever measure that may be, whether it is caseloads or other measures or whether it is time allocation, if he could give an indication about the current workloads within his department for Crown attorneys? Mr.

Mackintosh: In terms of first overall numbers and then context, as the me mber is surely aware, it was a serious concern to us that Prosecutions division had not been adequately attended to in terms of the organizational efforts that were needed to better ensure effective delivery of service and resourcing. As well, we were concerned about the need for greater specialization in certain areas. So on all three fronts there have been some significant changes. In terms of overall FTEs, my figures indicate that in '99, there were 134 FTEs, which is now 177.3 in the final Estimates for the current fiscal.

If there should be any adjustment to that, I will let the member know by written. I just wanted to ensure that any special top-up FTEs for a certain trial were not included in that. I did not want to skew any numbers by having a one-time infusion in that, but those are the numbers that I had. The book should show 175.3 on page 35, and the reason for my number of 177.3 is because two FTEs are funded by MPI, and that is directed at auto theft. Of course the funding has gone from $9.9 million to $17.8 million in the current fiscal.

That would include the MPI allocation which would then be different than at page 35. * (11:30) Now, in terms of, if asking a question about the caseload, in Manitoba, we have developed several units. I think of the High Risk Offender Unit for example, where the whole intention there was to allow prosecutors to go back and get the history, interview previous victims of a high-risk offender, and be able to present to the court the true risk of an offender to get more, you know, to get high risk and dangerous offender status. I think that has proven to be a wonderful initiative.

I do not know if other provinces are moving that way, but I think that you have do that if you are going to complement the available criminal laws to deal with the highest risk offenders to the community. We have of course the Auto Theft Unit now that is part of the auto theft suppression initiative. We have the Gang Prosecution Unit that we spoke about earlier. We now have, most recently, the develop- ment of a more co-ordinated impaired driving initiative where there is senior counsel and then designated Crowns from the general trial division who have agreed. I think it was a volunteer initiative.

I think it is about 14 of them, and they take the impaired driving cases. So we have a cadre of expertise there. I think of the Family Violence Unit, and I think of specialization when it comes to child offences, and I am sure there are some others. So the workloads will vary according to their assignment. The development of our computer system, which is called PRISM, has also enabled better assignment of prosecutors to cases to ensure more even workload distribution depending on those units.

We have more recently developed a one-case-per- prosecutor approach starting in domestic violence, and we are expanding that so that there is what is known really as vertical pr osecution, where there is ownership of a file, and that has been shown to be very effective in terms of access by defence counsel,

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3201 knowledge of the case, making sure that the cases do not fall through the cracks, obviously. I could go through a number of the other initiatives in Prosecutions, but I think the member was pretty specific in terms of trying to get a measure of workload and all that. I will say that in addition to the very significant increase in the number of FTEs and the investment in Prosecutions, I am advised by Prosecutions today that there has been noticeably a stabilizing of the number of files coming in.

So I would say in conclusion then getting back to the main question, that the workload, statistics will vary from unit to unit, and that is by design. Mr. Goertzen: I do appreciate that, and certainly I know in relation to FTEs it is sort of like when we talk about the police complement versus the amount of crime. If you do not have the crime you might not need as many police, but the minister, just in terms of the workload, he indicated that there were statistics I suppose that are available by units on the average number of cases that each unit or each prosecutor in a unit would be dealing with.

If he could provide that then–I do not expect that he has that here–but if he could provide that for us that would be appreciated. Mr. Mackintosh: We will certainly do our best to. Well, I am advised that those numbers are available certainly for some units and they may be available for others, but I do not want to commit to that for sure. But it is my understanding that the PRISM system should help us with that, and we will make best efforts to provide that information to the member. Mr. Goertzen: I look forward to that response as well.

Briefly, I want to talk about the Turnabout program, just to get an update on the intake volume in the Turnabout program over the last year or 12 months, the number of children under 12 who have been brought forward into that program. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the member may be aware– this may predate his interest in this area, but we were supportive and indeed, I think, vociferous in asking the federal government of the day, when it got to the YCJA, to allow for bringing into the criminal justice system youth under age 12 in certain exceptional circumstances.

That would be by application of the Crown, and there would have to be consideration of the nature of the offence and the nature of the offender. That was in the interest not only, I think, of ensuring that the whole range of options was available to deal with an exceptional case but, as well, for the Charter rights of the individual. So I thought for every reason that was a good argument and it was rejected. I understand there may be a new-found interest in that with the new administration in Ottawa and looking at that. The intention there is not to throw very youthful offenders into jail.

That is not the driving interest here, although that may be the necessary consequence in a most extreme case, but it is to ensure that there is a full range of consequences. Sometimes those consequences can be very helpful in protecting public safety and turning around the life of a youth. When that was turned down I think it was even more incumbent on provinces to look then to see what they could do within their areas of provincial responsibility.

We concluded, as a result of the examination of the jurisdiction available to the province, that we could introduce a program that would provide for some interventions with youth under age 12 in addition to the Child and Family Services and protection of children jurisdiction that exists. So it was with Healthy Child Manitoba and the involvement of people. I think of Wyman Sangster, for example, who did an early proposal funded by the federal government to see how this could be piloted that we were able to introduce it in Manitoba.

I think of some early disc ussions with people like Yude Henteleff and others that thought this would be a valuable addition to the consequences in Manitoba. We heard over and over again frustrations from police that, when a child is under 12 and they are acting out doing offences that otherwise would have resulted in charges, there was nothing that could be done. So in October of 2002 we started up Turnabout, and it is my understanding that as of March 31 of 2006 Turnabout has received 811 referrals involving 560 incidents.

Fire setting had 219 incidents; mischief, 152; shoplifting, 105, so you can see some of the numbers there. You can see the incidence of fire setting is the largest single category of behaviour. * (11:40) The number of incidents, I think, is the more telling numbers. There could be more than one youth involved in one incident, so of the 811 referrals, 126

3202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 are females and 685 are male s. So we are looking at that program to see how it can be strengthened, bearing in mind that Turnabout has always been the important objective and to not duplicate and not start setting up other agencies. This is not an agency. This is a triage function. This is referring youth to existing programs and being a hub in the wheel, if you will, for those other existing programs.

The results can range all the way from child apprehension to referral to a program, like Fire Stop, for example, that has been a very common con- sequence for the fire-setting youth. The interventions will not be sometimes with only the youth, but sometimes will be with the family and assisting parents with a plan to provide protection and recreation and other needs of the child. Turnabout conducts home visits when the families do not have phones. There may be home visits in other cases, as well, depending on the circumstances.

There is an ongoing relationship with the SROs and the schools in the core area in particular in Winnipeg. I have here a note that, just for the member's information, the referral organizations include, of course, Winnipeg Police, RCMP, Fire Stop, Youth Emergency Crisis Stabilization services, Child and Family Services, First Nations and Métis family services, Mamawe, New Directions, Anishinabe, Flora House, Family Centre, Winnipeg Boys & Girls Club, Lighthouses. So Turnabout continues to work with WPS and RCMP, in particular, to promote referrals.

It is available and, of course, it rests with the police as to whether they wish to use Turnabout in particular cases. I think it fills a gap, and we are going to look to see how we can enhance the program as we proceed. I think that should provide a full answer. Mr.

Goertzen: Can the minister indicate how many children referred to Turnabout in the last whenever the reporting period is that you might have, last year, or the last consecutive 12 months, whatever reporting period that you might have; or if you have a month-by-month breakdown, that would be fine, too, and also any statistics on further involvement with police from children coming out of the Turnabout program? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, we can provide that information. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that.

Turning to the young offender mentorship program, can the minister indicate how many mentors are currently operating within that program? Mr. Mackintosh: The mentoring program is operating in two centres, in Winnipeg and in Brandon: in Brandon since 2002, and in Winnipeg as well since 2002. The partners in Winnipeg actually were into a new era, I think a very optimistic era of a new partnership with Big Brothers Big Sisters of Winnipeg. It is a natural fi t, so we look forward to good results there. In Brandon, the Friendship Centre has been the partner.

I thought I had the numbers at hand, but we will have to provide those numbers in terms of the number of mentors or those mentored. An Honourable Member: Both. Mr. Mackintosh: Okay. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that undertaking. An October 23, 2000 news release regarding a high tech crime-fighting operation, $568,000 in funding from the provincial government related to the Manitoba Violent Crime Linkage Analysis System to gather facts abou t serial assaults, sexual assaults and homicides and compare them with other incidents, can the minister give us an update on the success of that program? Mr.

Mackintosh: The staff just want to clarify what the member is asking for with regard to ViClass. ViClass is an operation in "D" Division RCMP that links to other divisions across Canada and beyond. There is an expertise there, and there is assigned staff to ViClass by the RCMP. The Province began funding that a number of y ears ago. As I recall, we ramped up our funding over a short period of time. It is a specific unit. So any statistics we will have to request from the RCMP. Pe rhaps if the member could put on the record what it is he is looking for, and then we will have to pursue that with the police force.

Mr. Goertzen: Sure, I appreciate that, and the minister indicated in his news release that predators who travel between communities and across borders will no longer go to flee their crimes. They can expect the knowledge of th eir acts to follow them and makes Manitoba safer. So I wanted to just simply ensure that we were getting value for our money, not only within Justice but across the government as a whole. So, if there is any indication

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3203 of how many predators perhaps have been caught in Manitoba as a result of our ongoing investment, that would be appreciated. I am sure there are some sorts of statistics the RCMP can provide about the success of that program. Is there any other funding that has been invested in ViClass since 2000? I would imagine there is probably ongoing funding as well. Mr. Mackintosh: We will ask that question of the RCMP, give the RCMP the member's question, but it will be up to them to decide how to answer that and what they can say about ViClass .

We will work with them to get that information to the member and in terms of how the funding is allocated as well. * (11:50) Mr. Goertzen: I thank the member for that. I look to the response from the RCMP through him. August 9, 2004, new legislation, amendments to The Highway Traffic Act allowing vehicles to be impounded for 48 hours for the act of street racing. Can the minister indicate how often that legislation has been put into effect since the legislation was enacted? Mr. Mackintosh: The amendments enable police to impound vehicles of drivers caught street racing.

We were the second province to do that and it came into force on August 10, '04. So there is the 48-hour impoundment period available if police wish to use that. As well, the range of available consequences include fines of up to $5,000 and a driver's licence suspension if convicted. Of course, in addition, owners would be responsible for towing and storage bills. I am advised that this is the most recent figure and this will not represent the entire Manitoba statistics. This is only for two jurisdictions, that is Winnipeg and RCMP jurisdictions, as reported, so the numbers could be higher.

But I can say that I have a total of 47 impoundments at least. By the way, another measure of success, one of the areas of concern was Grassmere Road, north of Winnipeg, and what has been relayed to me is that there has not been reportable incidents of street racing since last summer in that area. So it looks like there is a message there that was delivered but it is one day at a time, as we know. When you look at some of the other measures of impact here, we just have a reported statement here that went to one of the local papers. One racer said: I am staying away from street racing from now on.

It is not worth it. Since my car got impounded, it has given me second thoughts. So, hopefully, that is the kind of message that is being shared out there and we will continue to be vigilant on that issue. The federal government announced on May 25 that it would bring in a law this spring to make street racing a criminal offence and we have supported that. Indeed, I supported Chuck Cadman in his efforts. Our own Premier (M r. Doer) here last June called for Criminal Code amendments to make it a violation of the code with mandatory jail.

So we will see how the law looks and we will look to see whether Manitoba should pursue further efforts on the provincial side, administrative sanc- tions or not. But having it stand alone as a Criminal Code offence may enable other options to develop. But, again, it will depend on the federal law and what the penalties are there and whether there are penalties that involve a loss of the use of a vehicle or not. So it is an open file but it looks like we have had some good messaging delivered as a result of the police using this law. It is their actions that have to be commended. Mr.

Goertzen: I thank the minister. We share in those comments regarding the police here in the province of Manitoba. December 2, 2002, Manitoba to seize and sell vehicles driven by impaired drivers: The minister indicates that if you drive while impaired you have a lot to lose, including your vehicle. Can you indicate under that legislation how many cars, snowmobiles, ATVs or dirt bikes have been forfeited and sold? Mr. Mackintosh: Manitoba was the first jurisdiction in Canada to introduce forfeiture with regard to impaired driving.

Indeed, it was even available on a first conviction for death or bodily harm, and it has been commented on by MADD Canada as one element of our aggressive strategy, but it is only one element. As I recall, I am just going by memory here, but in the first measure that we tallied, I was rather disappointed in the numbers because there were some projections developed that showed that the maximum exposure if every relevant conviction ended in forfeiture was a number that was quite a bit higher than the experience then.

Further analysis indicated that there were a lot of drivers who did not own their vehicle or did not have asset in their

3204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 vehicle. Indeed, I think with the prostitution scheme as well, forfeiture has to be recognized as just one tool and speaks to certain persons, offenders, but not others. I think with the development of lease vehicles over the last number of years, the shortcomings of forfeiture as speaking to every offender is even more pronounced. So that is why, for example, when it comes to prostitution offences, we just a couple of weeks ago proclaimed a law to have licence suspension.

But I think as part of the scheme it is useful to have, even recognizing that people are leasing. They are renting. They are borro wing. I know the vehicles are owned by someone who is not the driver. Now, the numbers, I am advised that we do not have current numbers. [interjection] Okay, we can crunch those numbers and let the member know of our tally. Mr. Goertzen: Just for clarification, I am looking for the number of vehicles. That is vehicles. I think the news release also indicated snowmobiles, ATVs, off-road vehicles would be eligible as well.

If we could have that number as to how many have been forfeited and sold since 2002, I would appreciate that. * (12:00) I know there are other members of the committee, or the Legislatur e, I should say, who are looking forward to posing questions in the short time that we have, so I will start to move on more quickly to some other areas. Regarding the Auto Theft Suppression unit that the minister referenced in his opening statement, can he indicate how many of the top re-offenders for auto theft are being targeted by that unit? Mr. Mackintosh: The numbers, I am advised, vary daily.

The highest-risk group that have the most intensive support and surveillance activity, what they call the level 4 kids, there are currently–this is April– at the end of April there were 51 in that group, high risk. In the next group, in level 4, and then six in the next–well, there are three different groups in level 4, it looks like here, and in level–there are 160 right now. You know what, I think it would be best, I am going by a lot of short forms, and so on.

Perhaps, we should respond by way of a response to the member just to make sure that these numbers are described appropriately because it looks like there are sub- categories within the different levels. Okay? Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate the minister undertaking that. The next question then, if he could also provide, of the individuals who have been monitored since the program began, the number who have been sub- sequently charged again with an auto theft offence. Mr. Mackintosh: I am advised that that number, indeed, may be crunchable. We think we can do that, yes. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that undertaking.

The minister indicated in his opening comments that they might be adjusting that program. I noticed in one of the local news reports back in April that they reported a 26 percent increase of auto theft in that same time period, January till March, I believe it was; or, sorry, the first qua rter of 2006, that auto theft was up 26 percent from the previous quarter in 2005. I assume that the auto suppression unit was already in place at that point. Is that part of the adjustment that the minister is looking at? Is there any indication that the program is not as successful as we had hoped? Mr.

Mackintosh: This is truly a work in progress that has engaged partners like never before in the history of this province on a very concentrated effort. I can talk about some of the trends and what we have noticed here. I will do this as briefly as I can, but this should be on the record. In the first few months of this initiative, the auto theft rates plummeted. There obviously was a significant result from the intensive surveillance efforts. Then the numbers increased so the task force went to work to identify what was driving the increase.

As I recall, it was the last three months of '05 was this plummeting and the first three months of '06 was the spike. So we met, in fact, I met myself with the task force just in the last two weeks or so to find out what they had disc overed, and this is what occurred. The intensive surveillance had the result of pushing some of these kids underground, if you will, what was called whereabouts unknown. In other words, in order to get out from under the watchful eye of the initiative, these youth disappeared, and they were going into breach status.

So one of the responses then, obviously, was to focus on the whereabouts of known kids, and there was, I think, a reason to conclude that those individuals were driving the rates up again.

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3205 There has been some good success in that refocussing. Again, this is an example of how the initiative has to be nimble and respond to the shifting pattern. More recently, it has been concluded that there have been some new youth becoming involved so the strategy is shifting accordingly there. Of course, the suppression initiative is only one part of the initiative. It is both a suppression and a prevention initiative. So the auto theft group is going to continue its vigilance and it flexibility in responding.

When I see the reduction in the number of whereabouts unknown, it gives me reason to believe that we are going to continue to meet the objectives, but this is a two-year initiative. It is an experiment, and in meetings with both the mayor and the chief of police and with the officers who have been assigned to the task force and to the correctional officials and Mr. Linden and Mr. Graceffo, I am heartened that we have a partnership like we have never had before, but we have to continue to be nimble here.

In the last two weeks of May, for example, there were 11 new youth that had not been identified before, so that shows you the challenge that we have. That is why also it shows us all that the only long- term way that we are going to significantly reduce auto theft in this province is to make sure that you cannot steal vehicles in the first place. I regret that these vehicles have been manufactured to be stolen.

They know darn well that that is the risk when they turn them off the assembly line, and it is not until th is coming vehicle year that we are going to have in place the Transport Canada regulations to require the manufacturers to immo- bilize these vehicles to Canadian standards. In the meantime, the Province is going to do what it has to do. This is a very serious challenge, and we are bound and determined to do whatever we can to bring it down by, like I say, on both the suppression and prevention angles. * (12:10) Mr. Goertzen: One final question.

I would like to thank the staff for their indulgence in moving back and forth on some of these issues. If I get a brief answer from the minister, I can turn it over to some of my colleagues.

We had asked about six months ago regarding statistics on those who were currently in violation of their probation and were told that those statistics were not available because the computer mechanism was not in place, but I understood the minister in the media said that that was coming on-line and that there were some improvements being made, and so, when I asked the federal government for the number of people who have broken the condition of their parole in Manitoba, I got the answer within three hours.

Can the minister indi cate when it is that we will be able to have that information on a timely basis in Manitoba? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the effort is well underway. You know, the information systems that were in place, that we discovered, were sorely lacking, and I am sure in many areas of private and public endeavour, but I was very disappointed to see the state of our information system technology in Manitoba. We have invested huge dollars in upgrading that. Well, it began a number of years ago, but I am not going to get partisan about it. But there was–[interjection] No.

But there have been huge investments in this area, and the department has had to prioritize and, you know, in concert with the experts on information technology and where to invest and where to improve, but the COM system, which is the relevant one to the question, is under further development. There will be further developments in this fiscal year. So I look forward to being able to push a button and get that information, as I am sure the member looks forward to it.

But there are enhancements that are being budgeted for, and we will continue to develop that and make sure as well though that the different systems, whether it is prosecutions, courts or corrections and police are compatible and that information is being shared. There are some wonderful developments, and if the member wants to get into that in more detail, if we have time we can do that, but that work is underway. The provision officers know about their breaches and the actions on the different files.

It is not a matter of not knowing information, it is not being able to push a button and have the information pop-up with the information technology, with the COM system. Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I appreciate the honourable colleague from Steinbach allowing me to ask the question that is on the minds of the residents of Portage la Prairie, and obviously in wake of the announcement that the women's correction facility will be moving to Headingley, but Portage is still a strong consideration for the healing centre. In the Aboriginal justice committee report

3206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 they were talking about a transitional centre as well. Is it the minister's intent to have the healing centre, transitional centre as a combined type of facility, and when will the minister be looking for interested communities to put forward their intent to be the potential site? Mr. Mackintosh: One component of the question was whether the transitional housing and the healing lodge were one and the same. I think the fair

interpretation of the recommendations is that it was two different functions. The healing lodge would be available for low-risk sentenced women, and the transitional housing was not dependent on that but it was I think contemplated as a community option. We accept the recommendations with regard to both. Now, there was a recommendation as well that was important to the consultation committee to have a council of elders to provide some guidance on this.

It is my understanding that that is coming together or has come together, and I understand that Elder Gladys Cook is going to chair that or is already chairing that. They will be providing advice on the issues raised by the member. With that in mind, it is our expectation that the RFP will be out this year. I trust and I expect that the member's area will be putting its best foot forward. We understand that there already has been some development of ideas around that, and I think there was a submission to the consultation group on that one. So we do see that as a part of the recommendations that are worthy.

But our number crunching has shown that there are not a large number of women who would fit that criteria. Indeed, there could be six or ten– [interjection] Yes, there are 16 sentenced women today. You can see how women's corrections in Manitoba is being driven by the Remand population. But that is all consistent with the recom- mendations and we will proceed that way. Perhaps with the small numbers, it will be even more effective for those individuals. Sometimes you can make the community safer one person at a time.

So that is that, and then I know, too, that there was a recommendation that we look to see how the southern healing lodge developed and what our experience is with that, and then we would turn our minds as to whether or not there should be a northern facility. I know there has been an interest from the North for that. But we are not going to cherry pick those recommendations. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Chair, I have several questions I am hoping to at least attempt to get on the record. If I can get brief answers, I would appreciate it.

The first question is in regard to electronic tools that could be available for assisting in enforcing curfews. I am not referring to GPS because I understand the government is not overly sympathetic to that. But is the government prepared to look at other forms of electronic tools that would be available, that are available to ensure that we can provide for offices, like probations, to be able to use to enforce curfew. Mr. Mackintosh: We do use electronic monitoring where it has been proven.

For example, with regard to impaired driving, we have introduced into Manitoba the state-of-the-art electronic monitoring by way of the ignition interlock. I am keen to see the introduction of more technology if it will make Manitobans safer. I am very keen on this technology and, certainly, on the face of it, I think it has great potential. I am, though, mindful of some elements of this issue.

It has been used and has been promoted, perhaps even by the member, to reduce incarceration, to get people out of jail and to provide an argument by defence counsel or provide reasons for judges to release people who otherwise would have been incarcerated. We are very concerned about that and would want to proceed only if it could be shown to enhance public safety. * (12:20) Now, we cannot be un certain with people's safety. I continue to hear th ese accounts of bracelets, for example, electronic monitoring bracelets, whether it is GPS or the traditional kind just being cut off.

A terrible false se nse of security perhaps on the part of the victim, in that case, where the victim may believe that an offender is safely in his bed with the monitor on. In fact, the only thing in the bed is the monitor and the offender is at the window. Now there have been signals about effectiveness that have been mixed and perhaps mixed at best. As well, offenders on monitoring can kill and that has happened. We have heard of those instances where electronic monitoring has been introduced. The technical shortcomings, I have talked about this with the member. I think last year at this time we were in

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3207 Estimates, we had a brief discussion on it too, but now I have heard more recently that the signal can be either interrupted or, in fact, countered by covering the monitoring. [interjection] Well, that is on the GPS technology. So, given my interest in this one, the department has been asked to ensure that the measures of success are known from wherever. They have been tried.

There has been some sporadic use of this around the western world and there has been some use of the traditional electronic monitoring in Canada in some jurisdictions for some time, but even there, I look at, there is a federal government Web site on electronic monitoring and it says being placed in an EM program had no appreciable impact on the future criminal behaviour of the offenders.

They continue to engage in as much crime as those who remained in prison or those who received a sentence of probation, and went on to say, the findings cast doubt on the potential savings promised by EM, as well, and talk about how it can be counter-productive. That was a study by Bonta. There is different, I was looking here, bail granted in a murder case. The ankle bracelet was it appears the reason that the person was released and it caused an outcry in the province of Ontario last May.

I can go on and on with the examples, but that is why I asked the department to make sure they combed through all of the availabl e research. If they could find a reason for a thumbs up on proceeding in Manitoba, that they would come forward with a proposal to, at least, on a pilot basis look to see how that could be implemented in Manitoba. I think we would be looking at what would be the offender population given my concerns that I have just stated. We would have to have a measurement to go with that. As the member knows, Nova Scotia is trying an experiment with GPS.

Ontario tried GPS and dumped it, my understanding is. So we will carefully look at that. If there is a thumbs up, we would consider that in the course of the Estimates process then and weigh the pros and cons very carefully. As I say, I am very keen to see this introduced but my job is to enhance public safety and not just introduce something because it sounds good. It does sound good, but there have been some real mixed signals about effectiveness there and technical shortcomings are one thing. It is also, of course, just the fact that you can have a bracelet on and can commit crime.

I thin k there are questions as to whether the technology has been perfected for correctional use which, I think it explains why provinces have been quite careful in terms of the population it is selected for use of the electronic monitoring. Alberta just started a pilot of electronic monitoring, I think traditional electronic monitoring, but for intermittent offenders, for those who are just sentenced to like a weekend. So you can see the very careful application of this. So that is the state of that.

It is under active consider ation as we speak by the department, and I look forward to getting their recommendations in the coming weeks or the next few months. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Chairperson, I think what we need is less politics and more action coming from the Minister of Justice and maybe we would have a better overall judicial system in the province of Manitoba. That was a fairly simple question, and I am going to try to incorporate a couple of questions into this.

Obviously, the minister, if he has the courtesy, will respond then in a written form, unless of course we are provided another opportunity before the end of the session. Mr. Chairperson, providing ankle bracelets for young offenders to ensure that they are respecting curfew, I think is a positive thing, and I think the minister is doing a disservice by not acknowledging the potential role of electronic monitoring devices, in particular, ankle bracelets. I am not talking about GPS. I understand there needs to be a lot of work done in that area.

Having said that, I do believe that there is a role here, and I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I will take the side of the victims and advocate on behalf of the victims on this particular issue. Having said that, there is a great deal of concern in regard to minimum sentences, and there are far too many break-ins in the province of Manitoba that are taking place. People are concerned in terms of, in particular in the youth area, but also in terms of adults, that we have too many break-ins occurring in the province of Manitoba.

Whenever you have a break-in, there is always the opportunity to classify it as a home invasion, and we have found it very difficult to get any sort of statistical information in terms of the consequences of break-ins. I have raised this issu e before, and I would very much appreciate to get an answer in regard to what an individual can expect to receive as a disposition as a result of breaking into someone's home. Is the government lobbying for minimum sentences in this area for Ottawa? Does he believe that there needs to

3208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 be minimum sentences in this area? I think that is something which Manitobans have an interest in hearing from it, especially where there are occur- rences or re-occurrences in this area. There are too many people that are stealing cars, breaking into homes and left out on the streets with no consequence. My constituents, in fact I believe all Manitobans, are fed up with it, and they want to see a government that is prepared to take action on those types of issues.

I think that there is a responsibility of the Department of Justice to be able to provide information. The Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen) made reference to computer technology that is out there. If you want stats from Ottawa, they are much quicker and made available in an apolitical fashion. I would like to see some of those statistical information being provided to members where there is a need, and I think there is a need for us to get a better understanding of some of the things that are going through our courts. Mr. Chairperson, I realize that I have only got two minutes left.

I had an important issue that was raised by a constituent in regard to the appeal process for individuals that had been caught with impaired driving and how they could go about in terms of getting their licence or their ability to be able to drive in certain situations. I know that there is an appeal mechanism that is there. What surprised me with this particular one is that the individual in question had a very sick father that was inside a hospital. He had children and he had wanted to be able to provide some care for his father, and it was fairly well documented, from what I can understand.

It was decided that an extension would not be given, knowing–[interjection] Point of Order An Honourable Member: Point of order, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Goertzen. Mr. Goertzen: I wonder if the committee would offer leave for the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) to finish putting his question and for the minister then to provide the answer, and then the committee could rise. Mr. Chairperson: The committee cannot give leave on that. Only the House can. The hour being 12:30, committee rise. HEALTH * (10:00) Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.

This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Can the minister tell us where the '04-05 annual report is? It seems to me to be quite overdue. Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): The '04-05 annual report? [interjection] Sorry, I am not responding properly in the mike. I thought it came out in the fall. We will check, but it has been done a long time.

Remember that now that we have the different rules reports are not tabled in the House. They are just tabled with the Clerk and sometimes they do not find their way to everybody. I guess you have changed critic role so it is conceivable that Heather has it, but I mean it is a long time ago that that was released. Mrs. Driedger: I guess just when I pop by the minister's office this aftern oon if there happened to be an extra one around, coul d it be left at the desk there as well? Mr. Sale: I will check with the deputy but I think the copies are available, the annual report 2004-2005.

It was last fall I believe it was released. Sure I will ask Richard if we will make sure that we have an extra copy of the annual report. I will put a dozen tickets in it at 40 bucks each in a brown envelope and you can have them. Mrs. Driedger: I thank the minister for that undertaking. Can I ask the minister why the government will not address the issue of smoking or preventing of smoking in Aboriginal casinos, considering where we are with Aboriginal health care and the challenges there and the lung cancer rates.

I wonder if the minister has lobbied around this issue in terms of, for instance, preventing licences going to Aboriginal casinos if smoking is allowed. What kind of discussion has happened around this issue? Mr. Sale: I just remind the member that there was an all-party task force, which she is well aware of, that

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3209 great credit is due to Denis Rocan, the Member for Carman, who really was the spark plug behind getting it dealt with as an all-party issue. The recommendations of the task force are what we followed, and I think the member knows the debate. The debate is around whether, from a legal point of view, the Province can make a law that would be enforceable in fe deral territory. That is, could we enforce a ban in a sergeants' mess at the armoury on St. Matthews Avenue, given that that is armed forces jurisdiction and federal jurisdiction.

Would we have the right to walk in and grab the sergeant's cigar? I think that wise minds put their mind to that and said, at the very least it is in dispute. We do not think we have jurisdiction on federal land, and First Nations reserves are federal land set aside for the exclusive use of First Nations members. So I think what we were interested in doing was the same thing that probably the member over many years has been involved in, and that is promoting no smoking in as many places as possible. If she goes to the Otineka Mall in The Pas, she will find that it is a smoke-free mall. It is on a reserve.

If she goes to Little Grand Rapids and Pauingassi up on the east side, she will find that all the band facilities, which are very, very sparse facilities in those communities, all have no smoking signs in them. So First Nations governments, I think, are increasingly conscious of health issues just as all governments are.

We think that the prudent course was to recognize the jurisdiction of the federal government where it existed and to set the example of a province taking the first action for a comprehensive ban in Canada, which has been very effective, and, apart from a couple of protestors who lost their cases in court very quickly, it has been virtually trouble free in implementing the ban. I think that when I talk to my First Nations colleagues, they express the same kind of concern the member does, and that is that we need to get reductions in smoking as quickly as we possible can.

But I think that New Brunswick has run into a serious problem when they tried to do a province- wide ban. They ran immediately into the question of jurisdiction. I am sure the member remembers and realizes that the issue of jurisdiction has been one that has been adjudicated a number of times at the Supreme Court level and is a constant issue for First Nations who feel perhaps, not always correctly but they have a lot of evidence and history on their side, that they often become the meat in the sandwich between jurisdictions.

They are very protective of what they call and what we call in our documents the fiduciary responsibility of the federal government. They are wary that anything that they agree to which appears to accept provincial authority will weaken their case under treaty. So I take it that the First Nations are not at all unconcerned about smoking or about health, but they are very sensitive to the question of jurisdiction. So the decision that we made and that I think was the right decision was to respect that and to keep working on the voluntary side with First Nations, which I think is working effectively.

Lots and lots of communities I go into, it is very clear that their public facilities are smoke free. * (10:10) The member mentions smoking in casinos. I have been in the casino in The Pas, and I have not been in the new one at Brokenhead. I do not know whether the member has or not. Casinos are not my favourite place so I do not go in them very much, but I have been in the one in The Pas, and I have to tell the member that almost no one was smoking. There was the odd person smoking, but the atmosphere was very clean, and the number of people who were smoking was very, very few.

I think that community, Opaskwayak Cree Nation, has made a real effort in their public facilities to reduce or eliminate smoking, and I think that is what is going to happen everywhere across our country. I was just in Nunavut not very long ago and it is interesting there. There is still quite heavy smoking in restaurants and they are just now moving this year to a comprehensive ban. But these things are cultur al changes. They are not things that you can just do with a hammer. So I think that is why we did it.

I share the member's concern, but I think we made a prudent decision, and I think it is serving Manitobans well with the reduction in young smokers in particular, down to the 16, 18 percent region which is well below where it was eight, ten years ago in the high twenties in terms of people starting to smoke. Mrs. Driedger: I certainly understand jurisdictional issues.

I would indicate to the minister that the previous Health Minister at one point had made some comments that sometimes you have to do some things even if it goes beyond jurisdictional issues–he is on the record in Hansard saying that–because it could be the right thing to do.

3210 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 There are certainly a lot of initiatives this government has taken on reserves, and it just seems to me that this argument does not quite fly when it could be made a condition of licensing. It does not have to interfere with jurisdictional issues as much as the Province's jurisdiction is to determine a condition of a licence. So it would seem to me, in order to get rid of second-hand smoke and protect workers, that certainly there is a good opportunity just to put as a condition of a licence, no smoking or you do not get a licence.

Can I ask the minister whether or not with Bill 27 going forward and if we were to be successful with the legal action against tobacco manufacturers, is there a solid commitment to reinvest that money into smoking prevention education, treatment programs related to smoking? Would they be prepared in any way to bring in any amendments at this stage to ensure through legislation that that money is targeted in this area? Mr. Sale: There has not been a detailed discussion about the size of the settlement or the potential timing.

In the United States it took four or five years to work out the settlement after there was an agreement to a settlement. It was not an immediate kind of thing. We do not know yet whether the tobacco companies will file–first of all, we are not in a position to file yet. There is a great deal of work, if I can just go over with the member what has to happen. First of all, obviously, we have to have the legislation.

B.C. has developed an algorithm for calculating the costs based on the data that we have from our health care billing system about lung disease, lung cancer, esophageal, laryngeal, et cetera, the various cancers that are clearly smoke-related. So we have to use a consistent method of calculating what we will claim in terms of damages. It is interesting, the Supreme Court allowed that it was fair for us not simply to go back and claim past damages but to project forward the damages that are coming because of curre nt rates of smoking.

So you can now, using good economic models, predict, based on the prevalence of smoking, what the costs are going to be within a reasonably close estimate. So there is a great deal of work to be done yet, now that we have the legislation and we have a number of provinces working together. Now we have to get to the point of quantifying the damages, constructing the actual claim and laying the suit. Then there will be, inevitab ly, a protracted process. There will be a legal dance, basically, and parties to the dance will both attempt to minimize the likelihood of the other party winning.

At some point we believe that the tobacco companies will understand that they cannot win this action based on all of the evidence that is out there, in fact, based on a tremendous amount of evidence about their collusion to deliberately manufacture a product that was more addictive than the natural product, than to tell people it was less addictive. For instance, all of their advertising on light tobacco, which basically was false advertising. So I cannot say that this will be in five years, four years, seven years, so I think we are still at an early stage.

But I think what the member is saying also makes a great deal of se nse, that this is clearly one-time money or it is money that is limited to a period of payments over a period of years. Some of the American settlements have been X over 20 years, X over 10 years. Nevertheless, it is not long-term base funding, so you have to use it in a way that has some kind of sunset related to it, and it would only make sense that you would use it for health promotion, given that that is where the expenditures have been. But there has been no formal decision.

I think the member is voicing an opinion that is probably fairly widely shared in our Cabinet and caucus, but we have not come to a firm conclusion on that. I think she has the right idea in terms of how we should use the money. Mrs. Driedger: I guess this whole smoking issue is certainly one that I am sensitive to just because my father was a smoker. He was also a pool elevator agent, a grain buyer, and was around grain dust. He died a horrible, horrible death of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. All it takes is watching some- body in the last stages of life die would certainly make people stop smoking.

I now have two young men in my house, my sons, who have not necessarily learned this lesson. There are a lot of their friends who are smoking. I think, while maybe some good things are happening, there is still a lot more to be done. I certainly would like to see if there was a solid commitment, that that money go into prevention would be absolutely the right thing to do. The last time we sat we talked about nursing vacancies. I did go to the site, and I did look at the numbers, and it is only current to '04. I have e-mailed the minister's office to see if there was any more

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3211 current information in terms of the '04-05 numbers, and I have not received anything. Is the minister able to get any of that information to me, maybe today? Mr. Sale: I think I referred the member to a publication which has our doctors, nurses, tech- nologists–[interjection] Yes, that is right. The Health human resources report. I do not think it has been formally released yet, but I think it is on the Web. Sorry, it is on the Web. That has the '05– [interjection] I thought it had '05 in it too. We have '05 data.

We will look at the data for you and see if we can find it for you. * (10:20) It has not dramatically changed. We have a slightly higher vacancy rate, but a significantly higher employment. So if the vacancy rate is calculated on a larger base, the actual number of vacancies is down, but the rate is slightly up because the number of positions is up. So it is on a larger base. But I think we have that information and we can get that for you.

While the member is raising the issue of vacancies, we are having a very good discussion, I think, and I do not want to change the tone of it, but I have to just take issue with the recent concerns about Westman Lab and the way in which they were dealt with. We were very, very careful to check this assertion about vacancies. I can tell the member that both Dr.

Jim Dalton of DSM Manitoba, who is the CEO of DSM, he was the head of labs at Health Sciences, I believe, a long- time person in the field not in any sense a partisan position, as well as the actual manager, chief operating officer of the Westman Lab itself, both confirmed that the positions that were vacant had been filled at the time the members were asking the questions, including the Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat), and that the key in filling them was the return of service agreements that were provided for a number of our different professions, as the member knows.

There are no technician or technologist vacancies at the present moment. You cannot ever say that there will not be one, that somebody will not resign today, but at the present moment there are no vacancies. The interesting question about shortages, we have hired 150 more than were in place in 1999. In other words, we have 150 more technologists, not that we have hired and then lost some. We have a net gain of 150. But very interesting, we asked them to go back in their records to look at how many people have left and how many people have been hired and where they came from.

So, from 2001 to 2006, a five-year period to this date, to June 1, 40 technologists left the lab. Now there are 70 positions in the lab, so over a period of five and a half years it would be, we had 40 people leave which is a little less than 80 or 70 out of a total complement of about 70, so it is 10 percent. That is a higher turnover than you would want ideally but it is not catastrophic. It is not, you know, people leaving every day, but the really interesting thing was that we hired 53. So we actually have a net gain in technology positions there of 13, not any loss. It is a net gain.

It was very interesting to me when the staff reported back, that they came from Alberta, Ontario, British Columbia and Newfoundland, came here. So our assertion that our working conditions and salaries are competitive, they are not at the top, they are not at the bottom. They are ab out where Manitoba likes to be in terms of average annual salaries, was correct. I think it is interesting that neither of the members who asked questions seemed to put any credence in the fact that we are in the middle of collective bargaining and so the lab has changed unions from MAHCP to MGEU, and that is fine.

I have no quarrel with staff members making the best they can of their position. They are bargaining, just as we are, but I think that the suggestion that there were 50 who had left, not true; that we were suffering a big shortfall, not true; we could not recruit from other provinces because our working conditions and wages were not adequate, not true. We have a significant increase in the numbers of technologists, 150, and I do not want to go back into the discussion about programs that were cancelled and programs that were reinstated, but clearly those things are linked into the issue of shortages.

So we will bargain effectively and fairly and all that sort of thing, but I just think it is important when members get up to make assertions that they take real care to make sure that they check information, particularly when they know that the party providing the information is in a process of collective bargaining. We try very hard to keep bargaining out of the Legislature and out of my office, and I try to respect that. Well, I do more than try to respect it, I do respect it completely.

But I just hope the member will take that information and share it with her colleague and suggest that it is always fair to check information out whether it comes from management or whether it comes from labour, but it is really

3212 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 9, 2006 important to check it out. I think in this case there was some unhelpful debate that was based on misinformation. Mrs. Driedger: Well, I would indicate to the minister that the Memb er for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat) had, on numerous occasions, very lengthy ones with a number of the front-line people, not necessarily those that were in negotiations, just those that were concerned with what was happening there. I would certainly indicate that she was listening and she was talking and she was making phone calls.

The information she brought forward was supported by a lot of those working on the front lines there, in that facility, on a day-to-day basis. There are some huge concerns. She was representing those people that were stating those concerns. I guess the minister was providing some numbers, and great offence was taken by those front-line people to some of those numbers. All I can say is the Member for Minnedosa went back, time after time, and asked those managers that she was speaking with or front-line workers, are these numbers correct that you are provided us, and she was told, absolutely, yes.

I appreciate that there could be a number of things happening here, but certainly when front-line workers are bringing forward some of those concerns, we feel we have to deal with them. I do not know if the minister has any further comments. If not, I will go on to another issue. Mr. Sale: Well, just that we recognize that working conditions in the lab and the adequacy of the space is a serious problem. It should have been remedied a long time ago. We are in the process of remedying it now.

But I think that when those kinds of assertions are made in the midst of collective bargaining, it is probably important to ch eck out the correctness of the information with sufficiently senior management that one can put the con cerns in perspective and make sure that they are representing a factual situation. But I agree that we do not need to spend a lot of time on this, but I wanted her to have the information that we have been consistently provided with. I just suggest that we should check those things out carefully. Mrs.

Driedger: I would like to share with the minister an e-mail that I received very recently on the Reynolds's ambulance closure, and perhaps the minister can provide some clarification. It says, and this was an e-mail to me: Are you aware that the Northeast health region plans on closing our ambulance. We are isolated, and the nearest ambulance is stationed at Falcon Lake, at least 30 kilometres away. Falcon Lake is a park ambulance and will only respond if they have staff, and they are reluctant to cover this area. It is not progress. There has been an ambulance in our area for 20 years and they have saved lives.

NEHA says the new ambulance act states that NEHA will not train any more paramedics. Please look into this issue. We will pay the same taxes for the homes, but a response time of at least 30 to 45 minutes will leave residents and voters feeling unsafe. I am wondering if the minister has any information that can be provided back to this person. * (10:30) Mr. Sale: I believe that Northeast Region has already communicated back to the region in terms of the plans for maintaining that service. I do not think there is any question about that. The issue is, though, it is an interesting issue.

Because of the low volume of service that that ambulance provides, it is not ever going to have a full-time paramedic staff. They could never keep their skills up, in the first place, and you would never get anybody to sit there for days on end doing absolutely nothing. So I think the ambulance volume there is about 80, or certainly 80 or 90 in that region, a year; about a call every four days, or sometimes you get two calls in one day and nothing for a week. So it is on an emergency medical technician level of service, as well as first responder.

They are all volunteers and are paid, you know, for the time that they spend, a kind of on-call sort of honorarium. One of the concerns as we brought in the new ambulance regulations recently was to upgrade the skills of all of our ambulance system, and so one of the things that northeast health region has agreed to is to support additional training for the people in that region and to work at getting the response time better. Because they ar e volunteers and are not always available, the time out of the chute in that community is quite varied, and so we need to work on that question.

The reality is that that community can be served from other ambulance stations that have higher levels of training in the same, or in some cases, less response time than the Reynolds ambulance can serve. We recognize the importance of having that ambulance service there, and northeast health region has worked with the community. In fact, the community has also come forward to offer some

June 9, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3213 solution to some of the problems. So I think the member should be comforted to know that that ambulance will remain in place and that we are going to try and strengthen that service, recognizing that it will always be a low-volume area. That is kind of challenge we have in a lot of our ambulances in some of our very small communities, particularly in the North but not only in the North, where the challenge is how do you keep your skills up. You do not want more accidents, you do not want more calls. That is not the goal of an ambulance system.

But if you do not have enough, then you are not also providing the best care you could to citizens. So it is a struggle to deal with smaller ambulance services, but this one will remain open and we will be providing some additional supports to increase the training. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us whether the Pain Clinic at the Health Sciences Centre was ever expanded? I know it had been announced a few times and then again in '05. I wonder if the minister can tell us if the actual clinic itself had ever been expanded in 2005 or since. Mr. Sale: The expansion, the physical renovations were done.

My understanding is that they were completed and that equipment was purchased. The problem in pain clinics is the staff, staffing. It is a speciality that is not easy to recruit. Dr. Intrater is still the director of the Pain Clinic; I do not know how long he has been there. We do not know that information. Though our problem has been finding staff to expand the volume of service, but the 2.5 million that was committed to the renovations and expansion–I believe it is done, it was 2.5, we can check the number–was spent.

The work was done and we have done work at Pan Am to provide a CRN and to do the physical work to have that centre able to expand. They are providing treatments at Pan Am, in terms of pain management treatments, but they do not yet have the clinical specialist that we need to have, or GP pain management specialist. GP, there are a number of GPs who have made a sort of personal specialty of increasing their confidence in pain management. So that is the direction that we are going at Pan Am, because it is so difficult to recruit pain management specialists. They are just very thin on the ground.

We are recruiting, but in the meantime I think we have to move in the direction of getting staff available to do the consults and not just the treatments. But we are doing treatments at Pan Am and that may be some of the confusion about whether it is open or whether it is closed. It is providing treatments; it is not providing consults. So it is not doing the intake and diagnosis, but it is doing pain management treatments. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister, if he has the information, tell us when the expansion at the Health Sciences Centre actually happened? Mr.

Sale: No, I cannot without asking staff to go back and find that information. We will do that. Mrs. Driedger: So, then, just for confirmation, I know that Pan Am was opening this satellite pain clinic. I know they have been treating people there with pain for years and I think have had a CRN for quite some time. Mr. Sale: Yes, there is a new CRN there that was bought this past fall, I think is when it was purchased. There was one on loan there for a short period of time while the renovations were done at Health Sciences. Then it went back to Health Sciences.

So we now have what was in Health Sciences plus a new CRN at Pan Am. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister just confirm that it is the satellite pain clinic that was supposed to open this past February, and that is the one that still has not opened? Is there a date for when it might open? Mr. Sale: It was to open in conjunction with HSC, but we have not been able to make an arrangement for the specialist diagnostic volume that would

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-4-87
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 4th hansardpdf 87.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a86fb033934e2a01190fb36d54ac6b8a6697f357

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