Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 23A (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-23a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 29 March, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Prese nting Petitions ... Read ing and Receiving Petitions .. . Presenting Rep orts by Standing and Special Comm ittees. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs have a statement to make? HON. EUGENE KOSTYRA (Seven Oaks): I would like to table a Min isterial Statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Sp eaker, I wish to report to the House on several program announcements related to the Winnip eg Core Area Agreement Progra m. At noon today, I participated in a media conference with the Deputy Mayor for the City of Winnipeg and the Federal Min ister of Em ployment and Imm igration. At the conference it was announced that Air Canada is to bu ild a $30 mil lion structure in the Winnipeg Core area. The bui lding will be located on the north side of Portage Avenue, north of the pu blic lane and the block bounded by Carlton Street, Ell ice, Hargrave and Portage Avenue.

The province welcomes this announcement and the participation of Air Canada in the Core Area Agreement program. We are confident that it will contribute many new jobs in our construc tion industry and, as well, provide empl oyment opp or tunities for Core area residents. In this regard, Mr. Speaker, we look forward to work ing with Air Canada to ensure that maximum benefits are derived by resi dents of the core area through these new job opportunities.

The Policy Com mittee for the Core Area Agreement bel ieves that the decision of Air Canada to locate in the core area on the north side of Portage will con tribute new em ployment op portunities in related industries. The Air Canada Building can be a stimulus for the construction of other corn mercial and residen tial developments thereby revitalizing the core area. The parties to the Core Area Agreement have agreed to fac ilitate the Air Canada project by assem blin g the land required.

In addition, the north of Por tage park alr eady initiated under the Core Area Agreement will be extended one-half block east of Carlton Street and will afford fu ll exposure of the Air Canada Bui lding to Portage Avenue. All privately owned properties required for the Air Canada and park extension projects are bein g expropriated by the Province of Manitoba acting on behalf of the parties to the Winnipeg Core Area Agreement. Air Canada will contribute $3.5 milli on for its site and the net cost to the Winnip eg Core Area Agree ment for the park extension, is estimated 906 at $1 .8 mill ion.

The second announcement today is the appoint ment of Mr. Larry Boland of Toronto as the General Mana ger of the Winnipeg Core Area Agreement. The Policy Comm ittee is confident that Mr. Boland who has wide-ranging experience in urban development projects will contribute significant leadership in real izing the goals of the Core Area Initiatives Program. Mr.

Boland has been involved in numerous urban development projects includ ing co-operative hous ing projects; he has coordinated neighbourhood im provement projects and so has gai ned considera ble expertise in working with various levels of gov ernment and pu blic interest groups. We belie ve that his background suits him well to the task of General Manager. Mem bers of the House will appr eciate that one of the major goals of the Core Area Initiatives Program is the creation of new job opportunities for core area residents.

Since assuming office some four months ago, we have been examin ing programs under the Core Area Initiative and I am pleased to report today, Mr. Speaker, that there have been changes to the agreement which will result in greater em phasis on em ployment and training opportunities. As a result of discussions with our partners, we announced last week four major authorizations for the Core Area Initiatives. The total expenditures of these programs all deal ing with empl oyment and training will be $9.5 mil lion.

They include $1 mil lion for a Commun ity Response Program; $4.4 milli on towards establishin g a training and emp loyment agency to be ad ministered by the Department of Edu cation; $1.9 milli on for an education development institute; some $2 milli on for an Inner City Social Work Program, an additional $1 15 ,000 for the first year of an Inner City Nursing Program. Mr. Speaker, we have developed further proposals to enhance and strengthen the empl oyment and train ing component of the Core Area Initiative Program.

These proposals will be presented to our partners in the agree ment and we look forward to their impl ementation. Mr. Speaker, these developments represent signifi cant progress in bringing the Core Area Initiative Program to the people of the core area. Now with their General Mana ger appointed and these major pro gram initiatives launched, we said that the Winnipeg Core Area Initiatives Program is indeed moving ahead. Mr. Speaker, we look forward to the development of an effective Core Area Program which will enhance and revitalize Winnipeg in a meani ngful way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Tuxedo.

MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Mr. Speak er, on behalf of the Opp osition, may I say that we welcome the announcements made today by the Min ister respon sible for Urban Affairs. We are del ighted that signif i cant process is now been made on the Tri-Level Core Area Agreement which, of course, our government was an integral

part in the establish ment of such a program. We're del ighted to hear that a significant

Monday, 29 March, 1982 empl oyer, Air Canada, will be locating in the Core area as part of this overall establishment and will result in jobs and infusion of people in the Core area so that the entire program may revolve around a num ber of signif icant major enterprises such as its locating there. We are, as wel l, pleased the hear of the appointment of a General Ma nager, Mr. Boland, who is not known to us, appears to be qu al ified to carry on the major works involved in the Core Area Agreement.

We know that this will be central to the making of good progress in future to have a well-qu alified person establis hed as the general manager in this program. We, as wel l, are pleased to hear of other intiatives that were announced by the provincial government. Of course, the establish ment of a training comp onent and the involvement of the Department of Education was part of the initial plans as announced by our government in the past.

We know, as well, that the various other ancillar y agencies that will be estab li shed there will contribute towards continuing emp loyment and develo pment with respect to all of the initiatives and all of the objectives of the Core Area Agreement. So, with those few remarks we welcome the announcements made today by the Min ister for Urban Affairs, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of North ern Affairs. HON. JAY COWAN (Churchill): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the 19 80-81 report for Channel Area Loggers Lim ited; and the 19 80-81 report for Moose Lake Loggers Limi ted. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Yes, Mr . Speaker, I'd lik e to table a Return under

Section 20 of the Pu blic Officers Act covering the period March 1, 19 81 to March 1, 19 82; and a Return under

Section 30.2 of the Law Society Act covering the period end ing March 31, 19 81 . MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain MR. A BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Energy and Mines. Will the Min ister advise the House as to what progress is being made on the estalishme nt of the $640 mi ll ion potash mine and refinery in western Man itoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Energy and Mi nes. HON. WILSON D. PARASIUK (Transcona): Mr .

Speaker, there have been discussions between the provincial officials and officials with IMC and the dis cussions will, in fact, be continuing over the course of 907 the next few months. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, there were a numb er of outstanding items remaining to be resolved which were set out in the Mem orandum of Understanding which was entered into last May by the previous government. Can the Min ister advise what progress has been made towards resolving those outstanding issues contained in the Interim Agreement? MR. PARASIUK: Mr .

Speaker, I must say that there was no progress by the past government; there was no progress realized in trying to work out those out standing problems that existed between the then Government of Man itoba and IMC. Indeed, as late as the actual period of the election campaign, the gov ernment advisers were sending in letters pointing out some very major concerns with respect to those nego tiations; those major concerns were put forward to IMC.

We are hoping that discuss ions over the course of the next months we'll, in fact, be able to deal with those concerns that were considered to be significant then by the staff negotiating team and the advisers to the government and which we indeed consider to be just as significant, Mr. Speaker. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Min ister maintains that very little progress was being made by the previous government, can the Min ister advise the House whether he has personally met with representatives of IMC in an effort to further items mentioned in the Me morandum of Understanding? MR.

PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I have not personally met with them. The matters raised were raised by, I think, some very senior advisers to the Conservative Government and the Conservative Party, I might add.

Those were concerns which I felt would best be put forward as a continuation of the concerns put forward - I assume they were real concerns by the previous government - and indeed I felt that since there had been some attempts in the past to poss ib ly bypass the negotiating process by deal ing with the politicians, it was best to let the negotiating process proceed wher eby those concerns could be put forward in exactly the same way as they had been put forward before. They are very major concerns, as I am sure the previous government must have realized.

That was one of the reasons why no agreement was in fact reached of a final nature. Those are the same con cerns that we are pursui ng, Mr. Speaker. I must say that without revealing the concerns and trying to und ermine or jeopardize the negotiations, which I think would be wrong for the long-term inter est of Man itoba, I do belie ve that the previous gov ernment thought those concerns to be very real and significant. We, as wel l, feel that they are very real and sign ificant. We, as well, feel that they are very real and sign ificant. Hopefully, they can be overcome, Mr.

Speaker, and that is what we are trying to pursue over the course of the next while. They are very major concerns that, in fact, arose when there was some changes with respect to the

Monday, 29 March, 1982 drafting procedure; when indeed the government quit drafting the agreements and the com pany's legal firm took over the job of drafting the agreements. At that stage some very major concerns arose that still exist. It is our intention to pur sue the negotiations in a way to trying to deal with those, Mr. Speaker, and that is what we are doing. We are doing what I think the previous government would have done and certainly the negotiating team is proceed ing in generally the same way that it was before. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the Hon ourable Min ister that we would not be stalling this agreement in the manner that he is stalling it. Can the Min ister advise the House how often his negotiating team has met with International Mi neral and Chem ical Corporation in the four months since they have formed the government? MR. PARASIUK: We have indeed, they have met once. There have, indeed, been exchanges of com munic ation between the government team and I mu st say that if one wants to go through all the correspon dence and all the material, one could show, Mr.

Speaker, that negotiations were not proceeding well, that there were difficulties of a major type. Mr. Speaker, we think we should try and resolve those difficulties, rather than try to raise them out in a public man ner. The negotiations and discussions with IMC are indeed proceed ing, Mr . Speaker, they are proceeding in the same manner that they were proceeding before.

I think we will probably end up if they, in fact, proceed and if the project proceeds, with a much fairer deal for Manitoba because we don't feel anxious because of a supp osedly imp ending election, to possibly retreat from fair positions for Mani tobans. MR. RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, no one ever said that a $640 mil lion potash mine cou ld be establis hed with out difficult negotiations and without encountering some problems. Those problems are not going to be solved if the Min ister isn't going to involve himself and his officials won't meet more than once in four months that they have been in office. Mr .

Speaker, can I ask the Min ister, is the Memo randum of Understanding with IMC still in effect? MR. PARASIUK: The Memor andum of Understand ing was extended, I bel ieve, on October 30th for a period to Decemb er 15 th; that memorandum has expired as of December 15 th, 19 81. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, will the Min ister advise the House then, whether or not IMC has any different standing in the eyes of the government now with respect to the develop ment of a potash mine, than any other potash company that they might be dealing with including the Potash Corporation of Saskatchewan? MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, we indeed have said to IMC that they have spent some time in Man itoba; we expect that our dealings with them are major deali ngs and that we are treating them courteously in this pro cess of negotiation; we bel ieve that, having spent the time to date, that they have a very good opportunity of pursuing these discussions to a fruitful culmi nation, Mr . Speaker.

I mu st point out to the memb er that the potash market, indeed, has grown extremely soft over the last six months, that there are lay-offs in Saskatchewan, that there have been postponements of projects and that might be one of the reasons why various people are, in a sense, slowing down this process and not setting up any artificial deadli nes as to when projects might begin. The discussions, as I said, are continuing with IM C. We certainly feel that we will be proceeding with those discussions in good faith, Mr. Speaker, and we cer tainly don't want to underm ine them in any way, shape or form. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Stur geon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Economic Developme nt and Tourism . I wonder if the Min ister could advise the House how many app lications have been received and how many have been app roved for the Sm all Busine ss Assistance Program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Eco nomic Development. 908 HON. MURIEL A. SMITH (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, the total is over 500 of appl ications that have been received but none will be officially appr oved until the program goes through this House. MR.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, in the case of the Rur al Small Enterprise Incentive Program that was programme d between the Federal and Provincial Governments there was a specific brochure put out on that program that expla ined all the details regard ing the eligibili ty, etc. I qu estioned the Min ister last week regarding the details of eligibili ty. Can the Mi n ister advise the House whether there is a pamphle t like this available or will there be one availa ble very shortly? MRS. SMITH: Mr . Speaker, there are such pamph lets avai lable and I' ll ensure that the memb er opposite receives one. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, my last que stion to the Min ister is, in the Enterprise Developmen t Pro gram we used private sector boards in three areas throug hout this province to advise us and give recomm endations on appl ications. The appl ications went to a private memb er board; the appl ication was then sent in to have discussion between the Federal Provincial Govern ment Board; and then it had final appr oval by the Min ister. Will the Min ister be using the private sector boards to advise her on what appli ca tions should qua lify or not? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, there will be a Board name d of five people, all of whom will come from the private sector. The app lications will go through an initial filtering by staff people and the Board will then have the right to ratify their recom mendations, open up any new qu estions that they wish to, and also they

Monday, 29 March, 1982 will be empo wered to hear appeals. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Gl adstone: MRS. CHARLOTTE OLESON (Gladstone): Thank you. Mr. Speaker. my qu estion is to the Min ister of Agricu lture. How many cheques have been sent out to help the farmers who are suff ering from high interest rates? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono u rable Min ister of Agricu lture. HON. BILL URUSKI (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, my hope is that all those who have appl ied would be eligi ble, but I can't say that; there are certainly approx ima tely 400 that are in the process of being appr oved. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Kirk field Park. MRS. GERRIE HAMMOND (Kirkfield Park): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Min ister responsible for Housing. How many cheques have been sent out to help homeowners who are in danger of losing their homes because of high interest rates? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resou rces. HON. AL MACKLING (St. James): Mr. Speaker, the honouarble memb er asks a very facetious que stion because she knows that I advised the Hous e late last week that the forms had been received and were being sent out; forms for people to apply for this.

So to ask a qu estion "when are the cheques going to be mailed out or how many have been mailed out" is ju st being facetious, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the matter of the welfare of people who are in danger of losing their homes to high interest rates and who had promis es made to them by these people before they were in government is not a facetious qu estion.

The Member for Kirkfield Park asked a very direct que stion, I belie ve she is entitled to a direct answer and not to have her motives malign ed by the Member responsible for the Housi ng Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Portage la Prairie. MR. LLOYD HYDE (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, my que stion is to the Min ister of Agriculture. In view of this year's ligh t snowfall and shortage of runoff water to fill the dugouts for the farm ers. is the Min ister continuing the program to help supply pumps to assist the farmers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Agriculture. 909 MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I will take the que stion as notice but I do believe that pumps are available to assist farmers; but the actual cost of filli ng, I will have to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Roblin-Rus sel l. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-Russell): Mr . Speaker, I have a que stion for the Honourable Mi nis ter of Agriculture. I wonder can the Mi nister advise the House how many of the applic ations, of the 500-or-so appli cations. for abandoned railway right-of-way have been app roved? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min is ter of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I'll take the que stion as notice, I don' t believe it's under my area but I'll take it as notice. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I'll ask a sup plemen tary qu estion then of this Min ister or the Min ister of Highways, can either of the Min isters advise these 500 appl icants why the provisions of their applications have been stalled since November? Mr. Speaker, then I'll ask another que stion and see if I can get an answer. I wonder can either Min ister assure these appl icants that their claims will be appr oved before seeding starts this spring? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honou rable Min ister of Gov ernment Services. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker. a week ago I replied to the Honourabl e Memb er for Min nedosa, and I wou ld hope that the two get together once in a while, I would sug gest that they do to pass on the informa tion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Min nedosa. MR. DAVID R. (Dave) BLAKE (Minnedosa): Yes, Mr. Speaker . my que stion is to the same Min ister. the Honourable Min ister of Highw ays and Transp orta tion.

I wonder if he cou ld confirm to the House that the former NOP for Radisson, one Harry Shafransky, has been hired as a special assistant to his department with a salary in excess of $32,000.00? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Gov ernment Services. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I bel ieve that I can confirm that the person has been empl oyed but at a much lower rate than what the memb er all udes to and much lower than the previous Min ister of Highw ays paid his special assistants. MR. BLAKE: A supp lementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the same Min ister.

I wonder if he cou ld advise this House jus t what the salary is and also what the duties of his special assistant will be?

Monday, 29 March, 1982 MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker . that's a question that is proper during the cou rse of Estimates Review which is jus t around the corner but I don't mind tellin g the honourabl e memb er that it's in the $20,000-$30,000 range. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, jus t as a final sup plemen tary ques tion. At least it is encouraging to this side of the Hous e to see some sig nificant signs of relief to the small busi nessman in the hiring of this one. I wonder if he could advise us the term of emplo yment that Mr.

Shafransky will be emp loyed and the Order-in-Cou ncil that he would apparently sign was for $32,249 in salary. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would lik e to sug gest to the honourable me mb er that he get a better research director because his informa tion is incorrect; and secondly, that he ought to know that all of these appointments are at the pleasure of the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, with their administration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I have a qu estion for the First Min ister.

I wonder if he cou ld advise the House if his government has formu lated a pol icy with respect to outside audits of Crown Corporations being carried on by outside aud itors. that is outside aud itors in practice in Man itoba, who then report their findings to the Provincial Auditor and he, in turn, reports them to the Public Accounts Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, let me advise the Leader of the Opp osition that the overall pol icy pertaining to outside aud itors is pres ently under review as to. indeed, whether we should continue with the use of private outside aud itors in various instances or whether there should be a change to the original format which involved the Pro vincial Aud itor doing the auditing in the province. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I am intrigued by the response of the First Minis ter that the former practice was that the Provincial Auditor wou ld do all of the auditing with in-House aud itors paid for out of the publi c pur se and on full- time staff with pension bene fits and all of the things that accrue. Mr. Speaker, would the First Minister not confirm that until 19 70 or thereabouts, all of the aud its of Crown corporations from the beg inning of time, so far as I'm aware in Man itoba, were done by outside aud itors in Man itoba.

It was only the Schreyer administration that mad e that change and that our administration changed it back, our admi nistration changed it back in the interests of economy and in the interests of good audit. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the dates that the Leader of the Opp osition outlined are basically correct that the change did take place in 19 70 and I believe that the 910 then Schreyer government indeed made a change that was sound and was in the pub lic interest.

In 19 78, I bel ieve it was 19 78, the then Leader of the Op posi tion while he was Premi er made a change back to having all aud its done through private accounting firms. Mr .

Speaker, it was our opin ion at that time and we are presently evaluating that indeed, rather than as the Leader of the Op position has indicated, the prac tice adopted by the Leader of the Opposition whil e he was Premier. was more economical that indeed it may very well have been the very reverse and indeed there may have been a great deal of additional costs to the taxpayers of the Province of Mani toba because of that change that took pla ce in 19 78. Mr .

Speaker, I am not as concerned whether the audit is done in a publi c form or the private form, but as to what is the cost benefit in relationship to Man it obans. That appears not to have been, that appears, Mr. Speaker, not to have been the main concern in 19 78 when there was a change in pol icy, but we're prepared to look at this very very carefu lly as to indeed which route serves the public interest rather than any sectional interest. MR. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, can the First Min ister confirm that the alleged savings that he foresees for the change of auditing from downtown firms would cause the same amount of savi ngs for the taxpayer as his colleag ue is bringing about by charging an extra $1.5 mi llion for security gu ards by putting them on fu ll -time staff as well? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'll recheck Hansard, but when I indicated to the Leader of the Opp osition that there was a thorough review as to cost benefit indeed, if there is a savings. then there will be changes overall.

There is a review and I understand it's presently before the Treasury Board in this connection. MR. LYON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the First Min ister has said that this matter is being reviewed and that no decision has been made, could he kindly then explain why it was that his Cabi net at a meeting that took pla ce on the 23rd March 19 82, passed Order-and- Council No. 335/82 under the Departments of Finance and Attorney-General termi nating the appoi ntment of Abb ot, Harrison and Com pany as aud itors of the Liq uor Control Comm ission and appointing the provincial aud itor as the aud itor of the Com mis sion. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker. we would have been very very unw ise in that instance not to have fol lowed the advice of the provincial auditor that indeed he cou ld do the work invol ving the Liquor Control Commi ssion without I understand, additional staff, without addi tional costs so why would we have insisted for doctri naire reasons that the Leader of the Opp osition would appear to have liked us to have pu rsued to have con tinued to emp loy a private firm when all that indeed could be done in-House without additional costs, without additional staff. MR. LYON: Well then, Mr.

Speaker, could the First Min ister then tell us whether this polic y is in fact as he said at the outset under review. or whether in fact his

Monday, 29 March, 1982 government has predetermi ned that it's going to fire all of the private aud itors who were doing the Crown corporation auditing? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker . I really don't understand the inference of the Leader of the Opp osition's qu es tion because it is my understanding that the aud itors were appoi nted - I may be corrected in this - but I seem to recall they were appoi nted without tender, without tender to the communi ty at large; that certain firms were appoi nted sim ply at the will of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council.

I'm not quarrelling with the honourable mem bers across the way, but I think that they should be very careful when they talk about firing and their su ggestion that indeed the non appointment of certain firms that were appoi nted without tender should be interpreted as firing, that indeed that would be, I think, qu estioned by the peo ple of the Province of Man itoba. Mr. Speaker . we are doi ng a review and that review I am satisfied will be done on the basis of what is most cost-benefit effi cient to the people of the Province of Manitoba.

If indeed it is more cost-benefit to carry on with private auditing firms, I would think that we would not quarrel with that, but we will not unl ike the mem bers across the way, because of doctrinal obses sions, continue to proceed in a route that would cost the taxpayers of the province more money. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker. having heard the First Min ister in his best Pecksniffian way, talk about doctrinal reasons for hiring aud itors, talk about tendering for aud itors, and so on - "Pecksnif f," for the benefit of the press, was a great Dickens character, wel l-known, Mr. Speaker. for his hypocrisy. Mr.

Speaker, can my honourable friend, having put to one side all of the nonsense about doctrinal rea sons, and all of the nonsense about tendering, can he tell the House, Mr. Speaker, why the practice that was fol lowed from the beginning of this province in about 18 70, of having outside aud itors do audi ts to help the provincial audi tor, what all of a sudden has he fou nd to be wrong with that practice that has obtained in this province in all but eight years when the Socialists were in office? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opp o sition refers to the Social ists having changed the pol icy in 19 70. We did change the policy in 19 70, and we changed that policy because it was in the public inter est at that point as a result of analysis to undertake the change. Mr . Speaker, the Leader of the Op position, while Premier in 19 78, decided to change the pol icy back to the historic policy in the Province of Mani toba. It was our view that indeed the policy in 19 70 was in the public interest, that indeed econom ies could be arrived at.

It was our view in 19 78 as I recall - and I bel ieve that there was plenty of data to suppor t our position in 19 78 - that the reverting back to the pre-19 70 pol icy was costing the taxpayers of the Prov ince of Manitoba what was it? -(I nterjection)- it was costing hundreds of thousands of doll ars of addi tional money and we qu estioned that in 19 78. We wou ld be less than responsible, Mr. Speaker . in view of the information that we'd received in 19 78, if we did not in the interests of Manitoba taxpayers review 911 that policy in 19 82. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, understanding that the Honourable, the First Min ister said, a few minutes ago, that they were reviewing the polic y, could he explain to the House and to the people of Manitoba how that review has already resulted in the firing of one of the outside aud itors for the Liquor Control Comm ission? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. MR. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): That question was asked in al most the identical terms jus t a few moments ago.

It may be that the Leader of the Op posi tion doesn't hear or doesn't want to hear, but question period is not cross-examin ation, and once it turns into a species of cross-exami nation, which appears to be the only way the Leader of the Opposition can oper ate, it is no longer question period. That is definitely out of order, and I ask you to so find. MR. SPEAKER: I'm not so famili ar as the honourable gentleman with cross-exami nation procedu res, but I notice that the Honourable Min ister was standing up to reply to the ques tion; I think he should be allo wed to. The Honourable First Min ister. MR.

PAWLEY: I'm not sure if the Leader of the Opp o sition is referring to the same firm that he made refer ence to in an earlier question or whether he's referring to a different firm. I did respond in connection with a question involving the Liquor Control Comm ission and if, indeed, the Leader of the Op position is again referring to that particular firm, I think my answer was very clear. The information that we received from the publi c aud itor that that work cou ld be done in-Hous e, without additional staff, without additional costs and obviously, as a resul t, at savings to the public. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honou rable Memb er for Morris. MR. CLAYTON MANNESS (Morris): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I would like to ask a question of the Min ister of Transportation. Has the Government of Mani toba develop ed, or is it contem plating developing a sche dule of rural meetings, the locations at which the Crow rate issue will be discus sed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Min ister of Gov ernment Services. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, last week, I don't know if the honourable member was here when I did announce that we will be undertaking a public foru m position on the issue which may take two or th ree different options into account - one of which may be that very option - but we haven't conclud ed that one; we haven't made a final decision on that point, Mr . Speaker. MR. MANNESS: If the government decides to go ahead with public hearings will the Minister furnish that information, that sched ul e, and will he table it

Monday, 29 March, 1982 immediately on final ization of that schedule? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, whenever we make that decision, yes. it will be so annou nced. We are making informa tion avai lable to all people, on request. What has not yet been decided is whether or not the gov ernment itself will sponsor a series of rural meetings, but we are making the information available and we are making ou rselves availa ble to respond to group s who request that we attend at those fu nctions, but beyond that we have not decided. Sir. MR.

MAN NESS: Can the Min ister tell the House what the average cost per bus hel to the farmer in Manitoba of transporting Man itoba wheat to the Lakehead is? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker . I'm not exactly sure that I can be precise but it's in the neighborhood of 15 cents. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Pem bina. MR. DON ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My qu estion is for the Min ister Respon sible for the Manitoba Telephone System.

In view of the fact that last week he indicated that he. and his department. would be intervening on behalf of West man Media Co-op's appl ication for license renewal before the CRTC. my qu estion is. will the intervention include sup port of the interim use of satelli te dishes for the receipt of U.S. SatCom signals. as is presently being deliv ered by Westman Media Co-op to several commun ities in westerm Man itoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Com muni ty Services. MR. LEN EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, that certainly is impli ed in our general su pport of Westman Media Co-op.

That organization has done an excel lent job in western Manitoba in distributing cable ser vice, and certainly we would want to see it have its license renewed so it can continue to do that excell ent job.

In the interim. it has made certain arrangements which the honourable memb er is fam il iar with. having been a former Min ister with that type of responsi bil ity, so we definitely su pport Westman Media Co-op in its appl ication for renewal of its licenses. imp lying as it does, an interim situation. which surely is the better situation. the best situation that we can have, given the circu mstances that we're dealing with. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you. Mr . Speaker. Since the government intends to intervene and su pport the inte rim use of satellite dishes for the receipt of U.S.

Sat Com signals in western Man itoba. cou ld the Min ister indicate whether the signals being provided to West man Media Co-op. via U.S. SatCom satellite. are the same as those being provided to the residents of Flin Flon and Thompson? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker. the honourable memb er know full well that a SatCom package is a SatCom package. and whoever receives that particular pack age will generally transmit those sig nals. It's rather 912 interesting. Mr.

Speaker, that many of the comm uni ties who are getting the SatCom package on this inte rim basis. including many in southwestern Manitoba, seem to be very unhappy with the SatCom package and would prefer the so-called Three-plus -one; namely, the three Am erican networks. plus Public Broadcasting System. and I bel ieve the people in Da uphin have been making those views particularly known and. indeed, people of Boiss evain, I believe, and some other commu nities in western Mani toba.

My information is that within a year or so the Cancom satellite, the Canadian Satell ite Com pany. will be able to deliv er the Three-plus-one package, and therefore, I refer to this situation as interim. and I really bel ieve the memb er understands that to be the case. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you. Mr . Speaker. A final supp lemen tary then for the Min ister. Can he confirm that the sig nals, which have been suppli ed by West man Media Co-op, from the U.S.

SatCom signal. pro vide the same channels to residents in the commu ni ties he mentioned in western Mani toba as the signals provided by the cable companie s in Thom pson and Flin Flon, those sig nals also being derived from U.S. SatCom sig nals, are the channels identical in the case of Westman Media Co-op customers, as they are in Flin Flon and Thomp son? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker. to be very clear on that and very certain, I will take the qu estion as notice and check. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opp osition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion for the First Min ister.

In view of the announcement that was made over the week end by Hud son Bay Mi ning and Sm elting to the effect that they would, for the first time in 50 years or more. be laying off all of their emp loyees, with the exception of senior personnel, for a period of five weeks or more, in the Communi ty of Flin Flon, can the First Min ister advise the House as to what reme dia l actions or what other plan s he and his govern ment have under way for this unprecedented layoff? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Energy and Mi nes. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker. the layoff is unprece dented.

This is the worse minerals market since the Depress ion; tat is qu ite well-k nown in the industry. it's well-known I think. on the part of the public. We have undertaken a numb er of steps, Mr. Speaker, to work with mini ng com panies. with workers, with commu ni ties affected in a way that frankly wasn't done by the previous government. In 19 77 when IN CO ju st after the 19 77 election laid off a numb er of people in Thom pson, Mr.

Speaker, without the previous gov ernment doing one thing, we in fact. the Leader of the Opp osition could never rememb er how many people were laid off in Thomp son - cou ld never remember the fact that the popu lation of Thomp son had declined tremendously during the Conservative term in office but we have set up joint consultative comm ittees with the mini ng com pany, the workers.

Monday, 29 March, 1982 the union, the com mun ity in the case of Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapi ds, we've had discussions with Hudson's Bay Mining and Sm elting, Mr. Speaker. At our su ggestion and our recommend ation to the Mi nes Minis ters, the National Mine Min isters' Confer ence, a special committee has been establishe d that is co-chaired by the Federal Department and Man itoba with all of the provinces participating, with worker representatives participating, with representatives from the mining ind ustry participating in this and what we are looking at, Mr .

Speaker, is a way in which we can try and develop longer term programs to deal with the fairly deep recession that we are in right now and the imp act that these types of layoffs have on single enterprise comm unities. We are look ing at this matter as a very critical short-term matter, but we also ackno wledge that these types of shutdowns are of a long-term concern. We've had a shutdown or a comple te close out at Uranium City. We had one in the past in Bissett. So we in fact are attemp ting to work out these problems; we anticipate them; we know that we are in a very difficult recessionary cycle.

Rather than turning our backs on those programs, Mr . Speaker, and pullin g out a lot of public money and putting it into paid ads tellin g everyone that they're living on a gold mine, we are facing reality and we are trying to deal with it in a very effective way rather than trying to sweep the prob lems under the carpet the way the previous govern ment tried to. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, referring the Honourable Min ister of Energy and Mi nes to that docume nt of promis es on which he and his government were elected - A Message from Howard Pawley and the Cle ar Choice for Man itobans - referring him to the

section on work ing people , would the Minister mind telling us how he is keeping the promis e of the New Democratic Party to the people of Manitoba made as recently as last Novemb er that the Manitoba ND P bel ieves working people deserve job security in a workp lace that poses no threat to their health or safety? Would he mind telling us how he and his government are providing that job security in the light of the annou ncement over the weekend which is only one of a numb er that we have heard since he came into office? MR.

PARASIUK: It is partly because we have had discussions with Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting and we are indeed I think having a five week layoff. This is not a clo se-out of jobs, Mr. Speaker.

We expressed concern with Hu dson Bay Min ing and Sm elting, with lnco and with Sherritt-Gordo n, that is very important from the government's point of view. from the comp any's point of view and from the com mun ity's point of view when you are faced with this type of very deep cycle, lack of demand for minerals, that the companies don't take a shortsighted approach, lay off people indefin itely, lose them and then have to face the massive problem of very high turnovers within their communi ties, unstable work forces, but rather what we were look ing at when we asked them to join with us.

We've asked other governments to join with us in looking at this problem of trying to develop lon g-term 913 stabili ty. That's one of the reasons why we estab lis hed that comm ittee, Mr. Speaker. We are indeed going to deal systematically with those types of com mitments that we made in the past, Mr. Speaker, unl ike the previous government that says that governments shouldn' t pay any attention to those particular problems, that the best government is the least government, a government that doesn't care, Mr. Speaker. We care; we are dealing with those prob lems.

We have only been in for three-and-a-half months and we have the Conservative Party moan ing and groaning and whining like a bunch of losers because in fou r years they couldn' t deal with anything and in three-and-a-half months we've done a lot more than they have. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The time for Oral Qu estions having expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, would you please call on Second Rea ding Bill No. 8, The Loan Act? SECOND READING -GOVERNMENT BILLS BILL NO. 8 -THE LOAN ACT, 1982 MR. SCHROEDER presented Bill No. 8,

an Act to Authorize the Expenditure of Money for Capital Pur poses and Authorize the Borrowing of the same. (The Loan Act, 19 82) for Second Read ing. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This Bill is intended to provide borrowing and expenditure authority urgently required for the new fiscal year beginning April 1s t for specific nonbu dgetary self sustaining Capital programs. These requirements are in addition to the normal Capital Estimates for self sustaining purposes which will be tabled later in the Sess ion.

Capital authority is needed imme diately to provide for the loan portion of the Emergency Interest Rate Rel ief Programs, additional loan authority for the Mani toba Agricultural Credit Corporation and funding required by Mani toba Mine ral Resou rces Limited to maintain the province's interest in the Trout Lake Mine being developed near Flin Flon. Due to the urgent nature of these requir ements, it is impor tant that this Bill be appr oved prior to April 1 st. This Bill is sim ilar to previous Loan Acts except for the inclus ion of a

section on the Emergency Interest Rate Relief Programs. This Bill also provides for a loan gu arantee in su pport of the loan portion of the Hog Income Insurance Program which had been annou nced by the previous administration. When the Bill reaches the comm ittee stage, I can provide a sec tion by

section com parison and explanation for the information of memb ers.

Monday, 29 March, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on this Capital Su pply Bill because it has a fairly major im pact on the agricultur e commu nity. I as well feel that the Interest Rel ief Program and the prom ises made by the individuals who now are hold ing the trust or the funds in trust for the people of Mani toba should be accou ntable for the use of those funds. Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat alarmed.

I have to say that we have seen over the past few months the new Min ister of Agriculture in office as taking the sit and see appr oach, or the sit and review appr oach, at a particular time when the agriculture com muni ty is undergoing a severe economic downturn as far as the returns that they're receiving, when all those busi nesses, Mr. Speaker, in the smaller towns and com mun ities are hurting and are losing money because of a loss of busi ness when the farm communi ty has a downturn.

It certainly has fallen on the heels of an election that this particular government came into office when they prom ised and I will again go over some of those prom ises that are written down in an ND P handout which was a gua rantee from the First Min ister when in fact there were some - I would call them pretty blatant - untruths in them, one particu larly, deal ing with the numb er of hog producers that had left production, Mr. Speaker, that figur e can be challenge d and I will take an op portunity in the near future to challenge him.

Bu t I would lik e to deal a little more specifically with two or three of the other items. Mr. Speaker, they are going to introduce an emer gency action to provide interest rate relief to the farmers of Mani toba and in this capital supply bill, Mr. Speaker, we see $9 mil lion. Wel l, let's put $9 milli on, Mr. Speaker, into perspective.

What that would do, not only for the farm com muni ty that it's supp osed to supp ort - and remember there are some 30,000 farmers that are all fe elin g the pressure of high inter est rates - we've got a total small busi ness commun ity which I think the majority of busi nesses in Mani toba, some 70 percent of them are some people involved in small busi ness; and we have all the homeowners in the Province of Mani toba who have mortgages who are supp osed to qual ify, or if they qual ify will also have a drain on the $9 mil lion. Mr.

Speaker, $9 mil lion to the people of Man itoba, that's $9.00 for every man, woman and child. If you were today to go out to the people of Manitoba and say to every one of them, whether you're a farmer, a smal l busi nessman or a homeowner, I think that pretty well every person in Man itoba is affected by high interest rates. So to put it into perspective what the NDP government are offering to the people of Manitoba, to all the people of Man itoba under an emergency Interest Rate Rel ief Program is $9.00. Mr.

Speaker, what is $9.00 going to do to anyone who is facing an eme rgency payment on their home or a problem with high interest rates, and we know we're all facing that? Mr. Speaker, $9.00 to an individual who is farming today is an insul t, if they were talking about sup port ing the price of wheat to $9.00 a bushel, migh t have more real istic meaning or if they were su pporting the price of the beef producer to some 90( a pound, Mr. Speaker, but no we've got $9 mill ion for the people of 914 Man itoba to help them against high interest rates. Mr.

Speaker, how cou ld this government go to the people of Man itoba and say they are going to help them with interest rate relief? Wel l, the Min ister of Fina nce says, I don't understand. Well maybe I don't understand, Mr. Speaker, but let the Min ister of Fina nce tell those 900 and some thousand people who aren't going to be able to be helped. -(I nter jection)- wel l, that's even worse, Mr . Speaker. The Min ister of Fina nce says this is the loan portion. He's adm itting now that there isn't a program for the peo ple of Man itoba as far as an Interest Rate Rel ief Pro gram.

The First Min ister, I really am ama zed at him, I shouldn' t be I know, but he stands before the people of Manitoba and he says, our financial policie s are cha nged from those of the previous ad ministration. They believe in high interest rates. We don't supp ort high interest rates. We are going to help the people of Man itoba. Tell the people of Man itoba that a $9.00 bill is going to help them with high interest rates because that's wha t they're giving them, they're giving them $9.00 a person to help every man, woman and child with the interest rates that they're facing. It won't wash, Mr.

Speaker, it won't wash. Mr . Speaker, the Member for Da uphin - and I'm ple ased he's here because he always helps add to the debate - he says what did we do? I did some thing, Mr. Speaker, that that Min ister of Agriculture can celled, stopped for the people of Man itoba and if the memb er would take the time to read the Man itoba Agricul ture Credit Corporation Annual Report, it's right in there - for the mem bers of the press I think there is some very interesting reading that is there as well - because it's on he record. We introduced a program in July of 19 78 and the record speaks for itself. Mr.

Speaker, in fact even with the programs we put in pla ce, helped more people at less government expense because on page No. 3 it says, "Under The Credit Corporation Act the govern ment covers the corporation, ad ministration and net interest costs. These costs were $.693 mill ion in the year under review comp ared to $1 .15 millio n in the previous year. The decrease being mainly due to addi tional income derived from the sale of real estate." Sel ling those farms back to the people of Manitoba, help those farmers, Mr. Speaker, as well as help the costs of operating a government.

How much better kind of program, how much better kind of a policy should we have for this province? If you want to talk philosophy and how things work, Mr. Speaker, this report lays it out very well. During the 19 80-81 fiscal year the corporation's agricultu ral activities totalled some $35 .2 mil lion an increase of 2.5 over the previous year. Mr. Speaker, the num bers speak for themselves. We used some $35 milli on to loan to the farm people yes, Mr.

Speaker, to loan to the farm people so they could own their farm operations and do those things best without govern ment being involved in the ownership of their land and controlling leases or making them tenant farmers. Again, Mr. Speaker, when we look at the num bers of direct loans, we had some 405 loans direct in 19 79-80 that increased to 430 loans in 19 80-81 . But there is more good information and I think when we talk about interest relief and supp ort for the farm communi ty

Monday, 29 March, 1982 and the voting of fu nds. let's look when we go to that last year. or the total operation. Young farmers - of the $29.5 mil lion appr oved in direct loans in 19 80-81 some 74 percent were used for the purchase of land; 12 percent for the consolidation of debts; 7 percent for the permanent im provements to buildin gs and reamining 7 percent for livestock and other pu rposes. But here's a point that has to be made.

You ng farmers - re memb er this -w ere recip ients of 98 percent of the proceeds of the Direct Loan Program; 98 percent of the program recipients were young farmers. the people that we all are supp osed to be working towards the future generations in our agricultural commu nity. Mr. Speaker . what has the Min ister of Agriculture done? He has cancelled the program. He has stopped it. He has put a freeze on it. He's look ing at it and reviewing it. Mr. Speaker, that isn't good enough for the people of Man itoba.

We are being asked today to supp ort a capital bill of $26 mill ion for the Min ister of Agricultur e who hasn't got a polic y or a program. He's like the Min ister of Natural Resou rces. He wants a blank cheque from this Legisla ture. he wants a blank cheque from us to go and do what he wants with that money. He hasn't got a program. He hasn't got a policy and that's what we're supp osed to accept. Mr. Speaker, as Legis lators in this province?

Putting in trust the people's money to a Min ister who has stopped a program that has proved in the Manitoba Agriculture Credit Corpora tion Report that it's helping farm people . Mr. Speaker. and he's stopped it. Here's another paragraph. Mr. Speaker, and it's on page 6 of the Manitoba Agricu lture Credit Corpora tion Report because it's really important. The pro gram - and this is an additional program that was introduced - Crown Land Loans. Mr. Speaker. The program was desig ned to provide mortgage money to lessees of Crown lands to purchase the lands that they had leased. It was ju st started, Mr.

Speaker, last year. The program. Mr. Speak er. which commen ced dur ing the current year has provided 21 loans for $364,419 , again using resources of the people ; sel ling those resources to the farmers; getting the land into the hands of people to generate wealth for everyone. Agai n. Mr. Speaker, he has pu t a freeze on. not only the funding of that lease conversion from Crown lands to private ownership, he has cancelled the fund ing or stopped the fu nding for the Man itoba Agricul tural Credit Corporation. to sup port those individuals who are de sirous of conversion. converting their lease land. Mr.

Speaker . I don't think that's good enough com ing from a government who have in their election prom ise - we are going to introduce a program to assist you ng farmers entering agriculture - Mr. Speak er. they have cancelle d every program that was in pl ace to help young farmers and it's not good enough. They're asking for $26 milli on and they haven't laid a pol icy on the table. Four months they've been in office and what are they doi ng? They're looking and seeing or reviewi ng, Mr. Speaker . that's what they're saying up front. But behind the scenes they are firing. Mr. Speaker.

They fired the Crown Lands Assessment 915 Review Board. What are they doing with these boards? They're firing them and that. as far as I'm concerned, is playing pretty dangerously with the manda te that was given to them. They're using the taxpayers' money to benefit their own poli tical beliefs and not the betterment of all the people in Man itoba, Mr. Speaker. I think that the Mi nister of Agriculture should stand up and annou nce some of these programs that he's going to help these people of Ma nitoba with. He's the chairman. Mr. Speaker. He's the chairma n of the Interest Rel ief Program.

Wel l, let him stand up and say that we have $9.00 for every man, woman and child in Man itoba; that he has a program under an Interest Rate Relief Program; he's got a $9.00 bill for every man. woman and child in Man itoba and. Mr. Speaker . that would deple te his $9 milli on that he has put in place. I should repeat. Mr. Speaker. for the benefit of the mem bers opp osite some com ments I made the other day because they're pretty important.

In 19 80 when we faced the drought conditions in this province we said to the farm commu nity who were su pporting the small busi nesses and the mach ine comp anies and all those people in rural Man itoba - because if you remem ber the mental attitude of the people when we were facing one of the worst droug hts that this prov ince had faced in some 50 to 10 0 years - we said we will put the money in place.

You all qu alify if you grown green feed or if you put in a crop to help the conditions of this province; to not lay the land barren or open for wind exposure; but if you plant a greed feed crop we will either pay you $1 5.00 an acre or $1 5.00 a ton. We did n't say you have to jump through a lot of bureaucratic hoops to get sup port. We said the money is there. We didn't use it all, Mr. Speaker. we didn't use it all; but we did n't restrict people from getting it. Mr. Speaker, today I will challenge the Mi nister of Agriculture.

I will challenge him right now that the majority of the farm com mu nity in Man itoba do not get one nickel of supp ort under his Interest Rate Relief Program. I will challenge him. Mr. Speaker. that very few home owners get one nickel of supp ort under his Interest Rate Rel ief Program and furthermore. Mr. Speaker, that the small busi ness people will think that he's a foolish person to introduce ever such a mick ey mouse program. and that's what it is. He will go down in hi story as the Mini ster who introduced a mick ey-mouse Interest Rate Relief Pro gram because he's proving it. Mr. Sp eaker.

He's only ask ing for $9.00 for every man. woman and child in this province. How can he ju stify his position from an election prom ise. Mr. Speaker? It's an election prom ise that they're going to bring in an emergency action to provide interest rate assistance to farmers. He cancelled the program. Mr. Speaker, under the Mani toba Agricultural Credit Corporation and let us refer to that program because it's here. I'm not making this speech up, it is all factual. and you know me I give factual speeches and it's right on the mark. Mr.

Speaker. we have here - and I go back to that figur e again 98 percent of those people who received supp ort were young farmers. We have the program that was in pla ce that helped people who were starting farming because it was the interest they

Monday, 29 March, 1982 were having one of the most diff icult times with - were the high interest rates. Mr. Speaker, the Mi nister asks how much? Every farmer that went through the MACC Direct Loan Pro gram received a 4 percent - rememb er this a 4 percent reduction on their loan up to $50, 000, Mr. Speaker. Well, the Min ister says he hasn't done away with it. He has, he has frozen that program. He's not lending any mo ney for it. It's gone lik e the Crown Lands Sale Program, it's gone. Mr. Speaker, it's gone.

We are today being asked to vote funds. $26 mil lion to a Min ister who hasn't got a polic y or program on the table. He hasn't annou nced a polic y. -(l nterjection) Same thing, that's right. He wants us to give him $26 mil lion so he can do what, Mr. Speaker, and he won't come clean? He want to go back out and buy the farmland. He wants to restart a state farm program. Mr. Speaker. agai n if you read the MACC agricu ltu ral report it tells you how successful and how many people like d that program. How many people like it? I'll tell you how successful it was.

Over two-thirds of the farmers that had the option they bought some 586 properties when they were in office. When they were in office for eight years, Mr. Speaker, they bought some 586 farms. Thank god they didn't buy any mo re. They boug ht 586 farms and by the end of Mar ch in 19 81 - and this is im portant - two-thirds of those people have opted to purchase their land, two-thirds. Al most 400 had decided to buy their own land. Yes. Mr. Speaker, and that's what we're giving him $26 mill ion for.

I'm afraid that that's what he's doing because he's not telling us; he's not laying it on the table; he's not coming cle an; the same as he's not coming cle an about a Beef Income Assurance Pro gram or a Beef Su pport Program. He's saying, we're going to meet with the farmers, Mr. Speaker, we're going to meet with the cattle producers. The first thing he did was again fire the committee that was in place to make recomme ndations on the kind of a program that was in the beef industry's best interest but he fired them. Mr. Speaker. He fired them.

Cold-blo oded firing that same as he did to the Crown Lands App eal Board and they, Mr. Speaker, sit there as a nice, nice government who don' t do those kind of things, they're jus t not up to that kind of tactics. Wel l, I see we have the Mi nister of Health here. Mr. Speaker, we have seen in this province one of the biggest breakdowns in the relationship between doctors, between patients and between government and how long did it take them to screw it up? Four months, Mr. Speaker, four months.

Our Min ister of Health worked very well with the people and we had the best health care in this province but it only took him fou r mo nths to have everybody fighting because they work better under the confrontation system, Mr. Speaker, and not the consu ltation system. MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease. I'm having some diffi cu lty in hearing the honourable memb er. I wonder if mem bers would keep the noise level down and they will enjoy the same remarks as the Chair I'm sure. The Honourable Memb er for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I will try and speak a little louder although it may be difficult.

I ap preciate your concern and I do think that these are points well 916 worth the government listening to because again, Mr. Speaker, we are seeing a lot of broken election prom ises, a lot of broken election prom ises. They, Mr. Speaker, continually say they're introducing programs to help young farmers. All they have done to this point, Mr. Speaker. is elimina te a program that has been helping young farmers and I'll go back to it agai n, because it's pretty good reading. -(I nter jection)- It is. It's pretty good reading. He tabled it, Mr. Speaker, he tabled it. They were our programs and they're in print.

I did n't make this up. This came from a very very neutral board and organization. They're laughing, Mr. Speaker, about a program that helped some 430 farmers last year. Mr. Speaker, we hel ped more in one year than he's going to help in his four years in office. He, Mr . Speaker, as I said earlier, will be the Min ister for introducing the Mickey Mouse programs for the people of this province.

Wel l, for the Min ister of Finance, you know, to be bringing in a Bill where he's going to offer each Man itoban nine dol lars that's what it works out to - $9 milli on -(I nterjection)- well, he says I can't read, well I see a Bill here before me, an Eme rgency Interest Rate Relie f program for $9 mil lion. There are ap prox imately a mill ion people in Mani toba. God bless them, and they're leaving everyday under this admi nistra tion. They're losing their jobs, Mr. Speaker, everyday. I'm sure the Memb er for Flin Flon is afraid to go home for fear his job isn't there, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think it's imp ortant again to go back to some of the facts that I have laid on the table. Mr. Speaker, it's time to go back to the report that I was reading from and it's docume nted and I stand here, very proud of an organization that operated under my admi nistration or our ad min istration when I was the Min ister responsible for that program. What have we seen, Mr. Speaker? We've seen the Mi nister of Agri culture who has done nothing, absolutely nothing. I can't believe it, four months that he said we're going to sit down and review. We're going to wait and see. Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, what are the farm people doi ng right now? They're wondering how they're going to service their operating loans from last year. let alone paying for this year. Mr. Speaker, and they thought over the normal winter months that they would have sold enough grain at a decent return to pay off those loans. They're faced with planting a crop, Mr. Speaker. The beef producers of the Province of Man itoba, Mr . Speaker, - and I talked to a lot of them over the last few weeks - they're waiting for the Min ister of Agri culture to announce a program. They're commi tted, Mr.

Speaker, comm itted people. -(l nterjection)- Wel l, Mr. Speaker, the Memb er for Dauphin happens to want to give a speech. I wish he would get up and speak, other than from the seat of his pants sitting there as a mouthpiece from his chair. Mr. Speaker, he says my speeches are all over the pl ace. Wel l, I'm at least up giving a speec h, Mr. Speaker. I'm at least up talking about some of the issues that are facing the people of Man itoba and par ticula rly the farm commu nity. Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, we 'll touch briefly on the other programs that the Min ister hasn't introduced and again we'll go back and I'll try and justify for ... Mr. Spea �er, the Min ister of Agriculture says, let's talk about the Crow rate. I'm qu ite prepared to debate the

Monday, 29 March, 1982 Crow rate under the resolution that he is bringing in. Mr. Speaker, I'm qu ite prepared to talk about the whole issue of grain transportation and Crow rate. Mr. Speaker, I can go back again to tell the Min ister of Agricul ture some of the things we did in Grain Han dlin g and Transportation and I'm gl ad he's reminded me of it. Mr. Speaker, when he's fighting with the Federal Government over issues, we had the Federal Gov ernment come to Manitoba and discuss with all the people in the grain indus try the difficulties we were facing because half the suppl ies of grain, Mr.

Speaker, were sitting on the farms in Ma nitoba and our Pre mier, who knows what's going on in the province more than the man who sits in that chai r today said to the First Min ister of the province and all the other premi ers in Novemb er of 19 79, at a meeting in Ottawa for the new mem bers here, it's interesting history and it's an im portant one because it got the whole ball rolling. He said, if you want to help the economy of Canada, move the grain off the prairies. No, he didn't say, get rid of the Crow. In fact, he said the very opposite. He said, we have to deal with the issue.

We have to deal with the issue that's before us and can help our economy. And yes, Mr. Speaker, we organ ized a meeting in Winnipeg in Januar y of that year and we had the wheat pools, the wheat board. We had the other governments who were interested, western Canadian governm ents. And what happened, Mr. Speaker, following that? Mr. Speaker, we had the com mitment by the Alber ta government to put some $10 0 mill ion excess to supp ort the developm ent of Rid ley Island. Yes, Mr . Speaker, that's the kind of development that came out of the leadership in this province.

We had the introduction of several thousands of hoppercars by the Canadian Wheat Board and when we talk Canadian Wheat Board, Mr. Speaker, that's not government. That's farmers' and that's farmers' money. So don't take any salute for that because of taxpayers' money. That's farmers money. And we, as a government in the Province of Man itoba, Mr. Speaker, contributed to that hoppercar system in an immedia te way, not several months after we said we were going to do it. I annou nced it at Ma nitoba Pool Ele vators Annual Meeting in November that we were going to introduce hoppercars, Mr.

Speaker, and they were in the system the 1s t January, the middle of Januar y, hauling grain forthe farmers of this cou ntry, some $2 mill ion that was put there on the table and used . We didn't pu ssyfoot around like the Min ister of Agricul ture is doing now. We took hold of the issue. Yes, Mr. Speaker, and you know there's some thing that's lacking across the other way because fou r years as Min ister of Agricu lture, we had a man in this House who's not with us unfortunately in the Hous e, but he's still with us. Mr.

Speaker, it was a man from Rock Lake who kept ask ing about what is happ ening at Chur chill. Wel l, I want to ask the Min ister of Agricu lture someday, what is happ ening at Churchill? Are they comm itted to the use of that? Has he docu mented any supp ort or any request of the Federal Gove rnment or the Wheat Board to use the Port of Churchill this year? It's obvious by their absence they don' t give a darn, Mr. Speaker, about the Port of Churchill, one of this province's mai n ports. Why haven't they been 917 talking about it? They didn't even introduce it in their Crow resolu tion, Mr.

Speaker, not a word about it because they don't have time to look any further than the end of their poli tical nose. It doesn't was h, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Port of Churchill for four years was the interest of all our government, all our mem bers and last year for the Memb er for The Pas who happ ens to again be unable to stand up and ask a qu estion or speak to this issue, the output was double what the projection was going to be, and why was that taking place? Because we, as a government, Mr. Speaker, organized a meeting in Dau phin to put the emphasis on the use of the Port of Churchill.

Ask the mem bers of the press. Had they ever taken a trip to Chur chill before? Who organized it and who emp has ized the use of it? Well, Mr . Speaker, the point is, when the people of Churchill went on strike three or fou r years ago I said to the farmers we' ll go to Churchill and load the boats if the workers won't do it because we want to move the grain. What did the NOP say? Oh, he said the farmers did n't know how to handle grain. They didn' t know how to move grai n. I can't believe it, Mr. Speaker, that's on the record.

The now Min ister of Hig hways and Transportation said the farmers would n't know how to move or load grain. I cou ld n't bel ieve it, Mr. Speaker, but that's part of the overall debates that I would expect the Mem ber for The Pas and the Memb er for Dau phin to talk about. But they're mu zzled, Mr. Speaker, they're mu zzled by their Premier. MR. ENNS: They're mu zzled. They're lost in that urban setting, those fellows. MR. DOWNEY: Yes. Mr. Speaker, cou ld you indicate how much time because I have one or two more points that I want to make? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable memb er has 13 minutes. MR. DOWNEY: Thirteen?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it's im portant that all these mem bers on the opp osite side of the House in the government, speak out on issues that are of importance to their consti tuencies. I can't bel ieve the Member for Flin Flon sitting here and not squirmin g. Again I don' t think he can go home because all of the people are being laid off. He'll lose his job too, Mr . Speaker. He'll lose his job too because he had a prom ise from his First Minis ter that they were going to do something about it. The people of Metro Drugs were going to get help, Mr. Speaker. Where are all these great su pport programs?

Mr. Speaker, $9.00 for every man, woman and child is what the offer is from the mem bers of the govern ment in an Interest Rel ief Program when they're fac ing 20 percent interest charges and growing. I can't bel ieve that we have a government who is staying in office with that kind of false prom ises to the people of Man itoba. I'll go bac k to the MACC because it's an important point and again we are being asked to vote $26 mill ion to a Minis ter or for a supp ort - the commu nity of agricultur e which has to be supp orted with a pro-

Monday, 29 March, 1982 gram lik e this. Mr. Speaker, the Min ister hasn't laid one polic y item on the table. He hasn't said we're going to continue to lend money to the farmers; we're going to go state farm or what. All we can assess is that from what he said to this point, he's frozen the Land Loan Program; he's frozen the sale of lease land and yes, Mr. Speaker, what is he doing? We look at the page here in the Free Press and it's in the Manitoba Co-operator, March 20, "Notice of Ten der Farm Property for Lease"; for lease rememb er, not for sale, but for lease.

We go down to the bottom - and this is pretty im portant, Mr. Speaker - the terms of the lease are this: "The du ration of the lease will be for 19 82, the year ending October 31 , 19 82." (I nterjection)- Well, at the pleasure of the Min ister. He has all this land loose for lease but he hasn't got any for sale. A year ago for the last three years I wou ld say, you could have picked up this paper and you would have seen agricultur al land for sale and it was being sold at a reasonable and in an adequate man ner, Mr. Speaker.

Bu t now we have a Min ister who has a differerent philosophy and ask ing for $26 millio n from this House to reintroduc e the state farm program and it's right there, it's in ink, Mr. Speaker, and that really bothers me. It really bothers me that he is turfing, throwing out a program that was mean ingful to the farmers of this province. You can't help all the farmers with MACC but you can help those who are the real legitimate people who are going to carry on with agricu lture and that, Mr. Speaker, was some of the reasons why we increased our fu nding of MACC fund s last year by 70 - 80 percent.

That's how we were com mitted, Mr. Speaker. Wel l, Mr. Speaker, no only funds that they have froze - my honourable colleague from Lakeside says funds that they had froze - not only that, if you look at the tables -(I nterjection)- That's right, they took it away. MR. ENNS: No, they would n't do that. MR. DOWNEY: If you look at the direct loans for the periods of 19 76-77 there wasn't a land program, there wasn't a loan made, Mr. Speaker, it was a land purchase. Mr.

Speaker, while the Memb er for Dau phin I think will eventually see that he made his mind up a little too quick in not giving it serious consideration who he is representing as the government in this province. I am very astonished that the mem bers in the back bench at this time are sitting there watching their Ministers cancel and abort programs that were help ing the people of this province. To reintroduce nothing; $9.00 for every man, woman and child - remember that figur e, it's an interesting figure - it'll go down in history because I think, Mr.

Speaker, when it comes time for the Minis ter of Agricultur e who by the way has said noth ing on anything as far as constructive policy, I challenge him to lay out what his poli cies are. What is he telling the farm people of Man itoba? What does the future hold for them this coming year? He says to them this, Mr. Speaker, this is what I have heard.

We're going to sit down with your representa tive group - which is the farmer's union that repres ent 1 percent of you or less - we're going to sit down with that group of people that represent 1 percent of the farm commu nity or less and we're going to con form to an ill-conceived idea that's going to help about 5 percent of the farmers if you can qu al ify. Wel l, I challenge the Minister of Agriculture to lay before this House precisely what the cost is going to be of his Interest Rate Rel ief Program as far as admin istation is concerned.

I challenge him with all the people he's got empl oyed that he's going to use more, Mr . Speaker, or as much in ad ministration of the Interest Rate Rel ief Program as he is in helping people with that high interest rate. 918 I can't, Mr. Speaker, for the life of me figur e out the First Min ister. He says he's changed his Interest Rate Polic y for this country. He says that we've changed our Interest Rate Rel ief Program. Wel l, tell us what it is. Tell us what's so changed about it because when I go the bank, they still want 18 or 20 percent for a loan. They haven't changed any thing. All they have done, Mr.

Speaker, they've hedged around or fudged around trying to let the people of the province think that they've got a great relief program in place. Well, Mr . Speaker, they haven't got any program for anybody that's of any meaning and it's unfortunate, Mr . Speaker. Wel l, the member says I should talk about Alcan. I'll have lots of opportunity to talk about Alcan and I'll be more open about it than anybody in the world because I' ve lived here all my life; I have farmed all my life and I'm proud of it. That, Mr. Speaker, is a lot more than the majority of the memb ers sitting across the way can say.

They've either come into this country through the back door or sli pped under the rug or the carpet some way -(l nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase. I hope the honourable memb er is not making imputations agai nst other mem bers in this Cham ber. He knows that such things are unparliam entary. The Honou rable Min ister of Agriculture have a point of order? POINT OF ORDER MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privi lege. The Honourable Member for Arthur, if I heard his remarks co rrectly, indi cated that there are mem bers in this House who came into this country through some su rreptitious way.

He is making an accusation of mem bers who have come into this cou ntry -(I nterjection)- Well, Mr. Speaker, maybe the honourable memb er, if I misheard him, would want to explain himself, and if he has made that accu sation he should apolog ize to Memb ers of the House who are here, duly elected, by all citizens of the Prov ince of Man itoba, and are citizens of this province, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I am sur e that the Hon ourable Memb er for Arthur will wish to explain his remarks and make it quite clear what he was referring to. SECOND READING GOVERNMENT BILLS (Cont'

d) BILL NO. 8 -THE LOAN ACT, 1982 MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I apolog ize to mem bers

Monday, 29 March, 1982 if they are a little sensitive about this. I think I can understand that if I have left some kind of feeling that they are sensitive about, I will apologize to mem bers for the com ments that I made and continue on with my speec h, if that's satisfactory. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will continue on, Mr. Speaker, because I did hear what I would consider a snide sort of remark, if I can use that word. Hopefu ll y, it's parl iam entary from some of the memb ers of the backbench of the government, and if they have something to say, Mr.

Speaker, I would hope they have enough statesman ship to stand up and speak in the House, because we haven't heard any of them. If they have some thing that's bothering them this is the forum from which they should do it. I think it will certainly be left to be said by the mem bers who have made those com ments to clarif y what they said at some point in the future if they feel they have some particular information that would be helpful for me, or for anyone else in Mani toba to know. I would be happ y if they would lay it out very openly. The same, Mr.

Speaker, that I would hope they would lay out about themselves and anybody within their own organization, so we will leave that said at that. Mr. Speaker, I was going fairly well here and I mu st have been hitting a sore spot when the Min ister of Agriculture spoke out because he is certainly sensi tive about a few other things.

Let me put it this way, if he were as quick to act on some of the election prom ises that his First Min ister had prom ised, if he were as quick to act on some of those as he is to jump to his feet if he thought someb ody within his ranks had some kind of comme nts made about them that he didn't like, if he would act as quickly with government polic y and promis es, then I think he has a reason to stand, but at this point, Mr. Speaker, I don't think that he has mu ch to stand on. I think, Mr. Speaker, we will conclude my remarks today and go back to, -(I nterjection)- Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I could maybe proceed on and have leave of the House if they like my speech so wel l? Mr. Speaker, I will conclude my remarks today by sayi ng that they are introducing a bill of $26 millio n to assist the Agricu ltural Credit Corporation or to fund -(Int erjection)- Mr. Speaker, we're voting here for $26 mil lion to su pport the Agricu ltural Credit Corpo ration and they're hollering about a Hog Program. At least there's a Hog Program in pla ce and the hog producers are getting sup port.

That program has been working very well for the mem bers who are tee heeing and haw-hawing across the way. Just ask the hog producers, if you know what one looks like. Mr. Speaker, the First Minister is bound to say 40 percent have gone out of busine ss. I want him to prove it. He's got a Min ister of Agricultur e. Lay the facts, because if the department tell him something the same as they told me, they'll tell him different. There wasn't 40 per cent of the hog producers who disapp eared from the province; in fact, hog production in our term in office went, Mr.

Speaker, from 800,000 hogs produ ced to well over a milli on, and yes, when they talk about Swift Canadian, the reason Swift Canadian cl osed was because of their policies, Mr. Speaker. It was because of their polic ies under the Schreyer ad ministration. The hog production in Man itoba went from over a 919 mil lion hogs down to 800,000 hogs. They stopped the hog movement from Saskatchewan by regula tion. Mr. Speaker. They took some 200,000 hogs annually away from Swift Canadian that were getting them to kill.

That was under the Schreyer administration; under this bunch of respo nsible - irresponsi ble peo ple across the way, and yet they said us, as a Conser vative government, it was our faul t that Swifts closed. It wasn't our fault that Swifts clo sed; it was the cutting off of the hog movement from Saskatchewan. It was the reduction from over a mil lion hogs in Man itoba to 800,000 in 19 77 when they were in office. That, Mr. Speaker, is why Swif ts cl osed and it has to be put on the record. Mr. Speaker, we were working dil igently to get the hog producers back on their feet and producing hogs and, yes, we did.

We went to back to over a millio n hogs. At the same time we put in a hog sup port pro gram and they are sniffl ing over there like a bunch of porkers because they have to put in place $5 milli on to su pport the hog indus try. They don't want to help the hog industry; they don't want to help anybody. They just want to play politics, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease. The honour able member's time has expired. The Honourable Memb er for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I hear remarks from the other side about being a Red Tory, and I can assure them that my past performance in my life proves that I have mo re social conscience than most of you over there. Mr. Speaker, my social con science is on record. I can refer to the Me mb er for St. James who worked with me when I was Chai rman of the Social Comm ittee in the City of St. James Assinib oia. I think it's on record and I think he can prove to you that it is. Mr.

Speaker, it leads me, the que stion that comes along about social conscience or conscience gener ally, is somrthing tht is probably the su bject that we should be talking about this afternoon. The con science of presenting a program of interest relief that is bas ically not going to do, not going to do what they said it was going to do when they were on the hust ings. It was going to save everybody from interest problems, all busi nessmen. It was going to save - (I nterjection)- Wel l, Mr .

Speaker, I don't have it in front of me, but it's available right down there, there's a document available that says small busi ness will not suffer under the NOP government with high interest rates. Mr. Speaker, it's the typical thing, and it's fairly funny that I'm hearing the First Min ister speak when he's not on camera, because I've watched the postur ing for several days, and it isn't my words, Mr. Speaker.

When I was watching him on television at the First Min isters Conference, and after he made his first speech, and then all the other Min isters had spoken, the com mentator said, "My, the Premier of Man itoba is pl aying to the cameras." That was the words of the commen tator, it wasn't me that said it. I was sitting listening to that on television. So, Mr. Speaker, I only say that the com ments of the First Minister continu ally with his posturing to camer as and etc. My col league has walked over and said Em ergency Interest Rates Assistance. An NOP Government would take

Monday, 29 March, 1982 action to prevent the loss of homes, farms, small busi ness due to abnormally high interest rates. Mr. Speaker. the previous speaker has mentioned the amount of money involved. Now let's all check our mem ories and the first amount of money that the First Min ister annou nced during the campaign was for all three programs, $23 milli on; then after the election he'd try to move away from that particular area and said oh no, it's ju st for mortgage - it's all in the paper. I'm going to do what the Prem ier has done and refer to things that aren't my words but words of others and his own.

Mr. Speaker, it finally ended up that he had to move back to have the program of $23 mill ion for all three sectors. The program that came out for the young people on mortgages I'm sure is the most dis appointing thing to young people with tough mo rt gage problems in this province than they have ever seen. Their appl ications will come forward and most of them will be turned down, those young people that are within a salary range that maybe 30 percent of their income is not qu ite being paid out for shelter, Mr. Speaker, but their mortgage rate or interest rate has dou bled in the last year and a half. Mr.

Speaker. the usual parrot comme nt that we hear from the Memb er for Dauphin about what did we do about it; we put forward a program of $22 mill ion that would be strictly for mo rtgages. No, Mr. Speaker, it's being com mented that it's -(I nterjection)- that it happened Friday night before the election. Let me tell the honourable member that I'm getting the usua l thing from the First Min ister because he says any thing at anytime, that was brought out the day after the Federal Bu dget came down. It was broug ht out and annou nced the day after the Federal Budge t came down. Wel l, that's factual.

That is very factual. We were waiting as a government to see what the Federal Gov ernment was going to put in pla ce and when we fou nd they did not put anything in place that would benefit the young people of the Province of Mani toba and the people who had their interest rates double d; double d in a year and a half, many of them. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, our own son and daug hter in-la w's interest rate went from 11 % percent to 20 V.. percent. -(I nterjection)- Mr. Speaker, does the First Min ister care to speak. I ju st wonder if the First Mini s ter -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I'm having some difficulty hearing the Honourable Memb er for Sturgeon Creek. I wonder if the honour able mem bers wou ld co-ope rate to al low me that privilege. The Honourable Memb er for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, it's a very typical thing and I'm used to it again from the First Min ister; when you corner a social ist they change the subject. You know, it's very very automatic. Jus t corner a socialist and they change the su bject. Mr.

Speaker, those young people that I was speak ing of would have had a program under our ad minis tration that would have helped the young people of this province. It would have helped not only the young people - let's put it that way - but would have helped people who had to have their mortgages taken care of or renewed at the present time. One of the best ways 920 to help busine ss, Mr. Speaker, is that you put money in peopl e's pockets. It would have been more advan tageous to have more disposable income for people with their own houses than the program that has presently been put forth. Mr .

Speaker. let's lead to the third que stion. The second qu estion was very obviously presented by the Memb er for Arthur and I can say that the farm pro gram is not one as far as I' ve had it presented to me by people who know agriculture that it will be of very little help whatsoever. Mr. Speaker, let's take a look at the small business program that has been put in place. We have taken tremendous criticism from the First Min ister about the Enterprise Man itoba Program that put a lot of busi nesses into place in rural Man itoba and we have been criticized for that continually.

I would say when he's re-negotiating the programs with the Federal Government that he look seriously - or the Min ister of Economic Developme nt and Tour ism look seriously at continuing that program because there is a report on file that says it has benefited small busine ss in the Province of Man itoba. Mr. Speaker, but let's take a look at a busi ness that does $365,000 a year sales. Well, Mr.

Speaker, $350,000 a year, when you take away the operating costs or the costs of buying the material that you're sel ling and the costs of whatever are involved in your ad min istrative process, you will be very lu cky if you have a busi ness that's showing a profit of much mo re than $35,000 a year. Do you know how many busine sses, how many people of busi ness with that type of profit can sustain as owners basically. Do you know how many people they cou ld empl oy? Wel l, I'll tell you, Mr.

Speaker, the Min ister has said under her breath or loudly and I'm sure she would say it loudly , that it's 80 percent There are a lot of small busi nesses in the Province of Mani toba but those small busine sses - you're helping two-man operations at $365,000 or under or $50,000 or under; $350,000.00. You're helping maybe a morn and pop organization or one with three people. Keep in mind after you've paid for the materials and the cost of operation, how mu ch will you have left for salaries. You won't, you can't possibly have more than three or four unless you're in a specific special ized busine ss.

That is on record in this province. We do not have that many specific special ized busi nesses, Mr. Speaker, but what we do have is a lot of businesses in this province within the manufac turing industry, a broad manuf acturing base, mo st of them doing over $365,000.00. Probably the ones over $365,000 are the larg est emplo yers, and I can assure you that they are the people that are in trouble with high interest rates.

Those are the people that are car dealers; those are the people that are parts dealers; those are the people througho ut this province who are emp loyers of peo ple in this province who are going broke, and Mr . Speaker, I am not going to lay the hand on this gov ernment for them going broke, but going broke because of high interest rates; but I am going to lay the hand on this government for going around dur ing the election time and putting their hand on small bus inessmen's heads and saying, "we can take care of you." Do you realize what was said, Mr . Speaker?

Do you realize when a Min ister says 80 percent of them are under $365,000 -That doesn't ju st take in the

Monday, 29 March, 1982 manufacturing busi ness, that takes in the service bus iness, the grocery store, that takes in every busi ness, and you really, really have come forward and put them in a position where they think they're going to be helped. Well, Mr. Speaker, they'll be helped about as mu ch as the Saskatchewan program helped the Saskatch ewan small busine ssman, and I said during the Throne Speech the amount of people that qual ified basically in 19 80 basically cost the Province of Sas katchewan about $19 3 mill ion.

They coul dn't find enough people to qual ify and the same thing will apply in the Province of Man itoba. You didn't jus t deal with the manuf acturers which is your basic base for emplo yment. You didn't really say that buildin g manufac turing buil ds the service industry because manufac turing has jobs, those people in jobs buy from the service industry. You didn 't say let's keep building on the manufacturing. You said, I am going to take the people that are having trouble with interest rates in small busine ss and I am going to see them through their problems. Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, I don' t mind this government doing that. I don't mind this government helping those who will qua l ify under this program. I don't mind that at all, but what I do mind is the misle ad ing statement that I hear from the First Min ister when he gets up in this Hous e, when he's asked a que stion, and he comes up with his favourite speech three times a week. He doesn't answer the qu estion and says this will not be a restraint govern ment. This government comes along and puts in a program to help busi ness with interest rates. He has got his gall, Mr.

Speaker, because he has not pres ented basically who will be help ed. There is a basis of who will be helped by that program and so let's be man enough in the words of the previous NDP Pre mier who one day stood up and said: Be men - and I can't use girls - Be men and women and come for ward and admit what you're doing. Mr. Speaker, the Min ister of Educa tion, fli tting about in her merry way, has gone ahead and added taxes to small busi ness in this province.

They have ju st hit the small busi nessman in the country and in the city of this province like you wouldn' t belie ve and at the same time the government says we will help you out of your interest rates problems, and that's very few they can help, but every single one will be hit by the education tax. There won't be jus t a few hit by that. There'll only be a few hel ped on the other side with your interest rate program for busine ss, but I can tell you every single one of them will be hit by the educ a tion tax that jus t hit the small busi nessman in this province. I'm well aware, Mr.

Speaker, that the government of the Provi nce of Manitoba is not responsible for the water rates in the City of Winnipeg, but they're going to go up 50 percent on busi ness in the City of Win nipeg user paying type of thing. I'm not here to debate with the Metro Winnip eg Council. I am here to say so, Sir, that the small busine ssman is being hurt mo re today than he ever was six months ago. His taxes have gone up . Why?

I heard from the other side, has the person read the papers whether he's from the city or from the cou ntry as to what the mill rates are going to change and wha t harm it's going to do to small busi ness? 921 We had, Mr. Speaker, somebody earlier today talk about out migration. Yes, we had out-migr ation when we were government. The average out migration in the Province of Man itoba didn 't change all that much over the past fifteen years or so, but we did have the highest point dur ing our time of office and we used to be criticized continually for that, but what would we do about it.

We brought in a small enterprise program. We brought in an infrastructure program with the Federal Government. We brought in consulting pro grams with the Federal Government for the benefit of busine ss. We also worked very hard, Mr. Speaker, to try and build the manufacturing base of this province to create jobs, and if you don't do that, let's talk about the out-migration. Let's talk about it because the peo ple in Flin Flon who are going to be laid off are going to look for another job and they will probably go where they can find one.

I can assure you that as busi nesses go broke or as busine sses go bankru pt or even volu ntarily out of busi ness because they can't handle the financing, they will leave this province. They will go where there is jobs and this government has decided all of a sudden, and it does seem to be all of a sudden, that they are not going to proceed with the large projects that were brought forward. I don't understand that either, Mr.

Speaker, because when I look at this prospectus that was presented by this government, presented by the Min ister of Finance, and the Min ister of Finance did say at one time this was dated Decemb er 23rd - well, Mr. Speaker, he obviously wasn't reading what was written along the bottom of this prospectus. This prospectus sup ple ment is March 8, 19 82. It's not the Dece mb er su ppl ement. There is one thing that concerns me that the gov ernment is getting themselves involved with. They have said that the Alcan plant migh t not go in the Balm oral area. There is dis cussion.

The Min ister of Energy has basically stood up and he has said that there were other places that were looked at. That's true, there were about six desirable pla ces that Alcan presented for that refinery and they were told, and there is a Minu te to that effect, that they should choose their own loca tion. Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, it's very - I heard Thom pson's mentioned - and it's very very strange to me that the Mem ber for Thom pson stands up and hollers "Thompson" and while he holl ers it he never once said that last year the development board of Northern Man itoba - the Regiona l Develop ment Corporation (NorMan) had the officials from Alcan in Thomp son and Northern Man itoba for three days to answer any que stions he might have at that time and give him the answers to those qu estions and the rea sons why and they were all docu mented as to why Alcan could not decide on, not Thom pson but North ern Man itoba.

So the Memb er for Thomp son plays the same pol itical game with this as he does with a dish, for the northern dish. He doesn't have any agreeme nt, he doesn't have any appr oval from the Min ister to put a dish up north, he doesn't have anything, reall y, he just stands down there on the front steps, Mr. Speaker, with another memb er of the House and say that's where it's going, we've got an agreement with the government to do this. Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I mu st say that you are the Dep uty Speaker you are in the chair in the present time,

Monday, 29 March, 1982 Sir, and all I'll say - if the mem ber who was with the Memb er for Thom pson remem bers it I'll be satisfied with that. So, Mr.

Speaker, I can say that what is happ ening, one of the most serious things that you'd ever bel ieve, gentlemen, honourable mem bers oppo site are now going to choose the place where the refinery will be if there is one, and it's starting to look doubtfu l, after every munic ipal ity and town and city in this province who were interested in having an Alc an Plant Refinery within their area made presentations to them, brou ght forward the advantages of their area, worked their butts off to convince Alcan that we wou ld lik e to have them here, now, Mr.

Speaker, I am waiting and it'll prove the point that this government only would probably ap prove things that are going to happen in areas where they want them to, or maybe because of the constituency stripe or whatever. I am waiting for them to say where the refinery will go and give the answers to those other cities and municip ali ties who have made the requests. Alcan travell ed throughout this province and they listened to everyb ody's presentation as to the benefits that they could put forward for where the pl ant could go.

Dau phin put one forward, Portage put one forward, Brandon, I know put one forward, the Pas, everybody, and Thomp son put one forward. Now we have a government that says to the cities and munic ipal ities and towns of this province that we will be your big brother, we don' t care -(I nter jection)- right on, I heard, we will tell you where to go as my colleague says. I say, Mr. Speaker, they are going to be getting into very dangerous ground. Mr .

Speaker, I only referred to Alcan in this particu lar debate because I refer to the Potash now and I refer to the Hydro and I refer to the Forest Indus tries and I can tell you that a $700 milli on refinery that was buil t in Grand Bay, I believe it was a little over $500 million in Grand Bay, appr oxima tely 62 percent of the products were bough t in that area of Queb ec or con structed there, contractors etc .. and approxi mately 72 percent of the balance was bought in Qu ebec and the balance of the money was spent outside, Canada first, international second.

The same thing can be dis cussed with the Potash Industry, there is hopper cars, there's everything. The same thing can be discussed with the Hydro and even the Hydro towers that would be buil t on the line could be built in the Province of Man itoba. Mr. Speaker, I ask this memb er who keeps tal king the way he does to go dow n to St. Ja mes Street and down to Mani toba Bridge and over to Domin ion Bridge and he'll see power towers being built by Man itobans. They're buil t here.

He could probably have the plant that sits beside the pulp plant operating that machi ne, the factory that's operating - Bl ess us, it's not operating. But it could probably be operating if some thing happ ened in The Pas. -(l nterjection) Prove it. I am told it's going to happen shortly so, Mr.

Speaker, don't the honourable gentlemen opposite realize that the best way to help the broad manufac turing base of the Province of Man itoba, which is probably more diversified and is more diversified, than any other of the Western Provinces - I don't know whether the honourable mem bers realize that or not, we have a more diversified manuf acturing base and broader manufac turing base in the Province of Mani- 922 toba than in Saskatchewan, Al berta and we're about the same with B.C. B.C. because they have the marine industry in that area.

Do the honourable mem bers not realize the spi n-off for the small busi nessman in this province? -(l nterjection)- Wel l, Mr . Speaker, I jus t heard that's why we're supp orting it. Now, do you really mean, am I really hearing, Mr. Speaker, that Alcan has to go through another two year survey of where they're going to go or maybe they'll be told where to go and if they're told maybe they won't want to go there. Did you ever think of that? Maybe they won't want to go there. Mr. Speaker, this government does not want large indus try within this province that they can't control.

No, they don't. -(I nterjection)- They don't. Then we have in the prospectus, Mr. Speaker, that -(l nter jection)- the prospectus- you should be back to that - because it says March 2nd on it and you know this prospectus and I will have the chance to speak agai n, because I don't think we cou ld get it all in today - this prospectus talks about the economy in the Province of Man itoba, it tells how good the economy of the Province of Man itoba has been over the last four years. Mr.

Speaker, when I take the prospectus of the Memb er for Brandon East, not the Memb er for Bran don West I don't really know how the Me mb er for Brandon West really fits in with that bunch of rene gades over there - but I can tell you this, the Memb er for Brandon East put out what is clo se to being a prospectus on the economy of the Province of Mani toba for four years which abs ol utely differs from the prospectus sig ned by this government at this time, com pletely different. Mr. Speaker, I really feel kind of bad about the mem bers opposite.

I feel sincerely sorry because a back bencher in government has one of the worst times at any time. I sincerely feel sorry for them when the bur eaucr acy that is being hired by this govern ment is the Vice President of the Manitoba NOP; the Dep uty Min ister of Energy who is a top man in the NOP; all of these top high echelon people of the NOP party. -(I nterjection)- Mr. Speaker, I make it very clear, I'm not criticizing. No, I'm not critizing. I' m not critizing.

I am saying that either you honourable memb ers who are elected by the people will have respect from those high echelon of your party or you damn well tell them who you are but I haven't seen any sign of that today. In order words, Mr. Speaker, the high echelon, the bureaucrat of the NOP party is the one that's running this proivince over the elected memb er and I heard som ebody say good about that. I can only say, Mr.

Speaker, I would hope the honourable memb ers opposite when a prospectus like this comes up and I would doub t that many of them hadn't read it until it was brought up in this House. yes, I would doub t that many of them have yet to - I would li ke to sug gest to the honourable mem bers opposite that it's more im portant for them to read it than us because they are government. They answer to their constituents. not the bu reaucrats. I can tell you this, Mr. Speaker, I've been around the House a long time but I don't really think that makes me anything spec ial.

But in all my years I find that my constituents phone me or phone somebody that represents me very closely - they don' t phone the

Monday, 29 March, 1982 bureaucr ats - they phone the memb er. If anybody was to question any one of them on that or especially let's put it this way, if they were to qu estion the Memb er for Brandon East on the prospectus he wrote last year toward the end of the year, as to why it differs from the one he ag rees with that's got March 2 written on it, I wonder what answer cou ld be given. The honourable gentlemen over there, especially the Memb er for Dauphin whose favourite saying for two months or so far close to two mo nths is what are you going to do about it? Wel l, how much time do I have, Mr. Speaker? MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Five mi nutes. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, if I may read into the record the manuf acture from the Deputy of Industry and Comme rce to the Honourable Len Evans, March 3, 19 77 or March 28, 19 77. The first report entitled Manitoba 's Manuf acturing sectors, past, present and future trends indicates the followi ng: "

(1) The rate of growth in manufacturing em ploy ment over the past 15 years has been appr oxima tely 1. 8 percent annuall y. "

(2) Increased em plo yment in man ufacturing dur ing the period 19 70 through 19 74 averaged 1, 400 additional jobs per year. During 19 75 there was no increase and during 19 76 there was a decrease of 1, 300 jobs in the manufacturing sector. "Had the 19 70- 19 74 trend continued the numb er of jobs in man ufac turing sector would have increased by 2,800 dur ing 19 75 and 19 76. Instead, because of no growth in 19 75 and a decline of 1,3 00 jobs in 19 76, the manufac turing sector theoretically has lost 4,10 0 jobs. A recent study which is presently in the hands of the Red Secretariat, Mr.

Speaker the Red Secreta riat - established that the job in manuf acturing was worth $27,000 per year to the provincial economy . Hence, the decl ine of 4, 10 0 jobs as a cost to the econ omy of Man itoba of a $1 10 mi llion per year or over 1. 5 percent of the GBB. "The rate of growth in manuf acturing investment during the period of 19 52-1 972 has been approxi mately 4.3 annu ally.

The rate of capital investment fell by 25 percent between 19 75 and 19 76 foll owing a 27 percent declin e in 19 74 and 19 75; the annu al invest ment needs for 19 76 amou nted to $18 0 milli on; the actual investment intention for 19 76 amou nted to only $61 millio n" they needed $18 0 milli on "hence the shortfall of $1 19 mil lion existed in 19 76. The pros pects for 19 77 is not any better than the past three years." Now, Mr. Speaker, we' ll read, the '77 went down if you look at the records; '78, '79. Mr. Speaker, now we have the prospectus.

"The gross investment compr ised an average of 27. 1 Gross Pro vincial Product during five years through 19 76-19 80. Trade, finance, com mercial and manufacturing investment have shown the strongest growth over the period. In 19 80 the private investment amou nted to 70.9 percent of the capital expend itures. Mr. Speaker, the prospectus also says that the gross product was 11, 16 0,000; poor harvest condi tions, generally weak conditions, export demand were probably the reasons why, even though it says, 923 even though we had these conditions, it was up 780 mil lion. 780 mil lion, and, Mr .

Speaker, do you know what the conference board predicts for Man itoba for 19 81 ? They predict a 1. 3 milli on increase which is 3.3 for productivity for the Province of Mani toba, and that's the third highest in Canada. Woul d the memb er care to come over and see the figu res from me later? I'd be very happy to show him. Mr. Speaker, what did we do about it? -(I nter jection)- I mu st say that the previous Me mb er for Gl adstone had a good name for Andy - and I would hate to bring it up, but I'll tell you, what did we do about it? Mr.

Speaker, this report sugge sts, to have man ufacturing to grow in the province, that we decrease the man ufacturing tax from 15 and 13 per cent to 13 and 11 percent, and this government did it; the previous government did it; should elimi nate the two 10 percent capital tax manuf acturers; this gov ernment took it down. Mod ify the Inheritance and Gift Tax whereby beque sts to spouses, sons, and daugh ters wou ld be totally exempt; this government did it. We did it. We did it and manuf acturing investment grew and that's what you're March 2nd, 19 82 prospec tus says; not Decemb er 23rd.

It says right on the front and, I repeat, Mr. Speaker, the date of this prospectus suppl eme nt is March 8th, 19 82, and in it it says that the manufacturing sector done nothing but grow over the last four years in the Province of Man itoba and your report, that was in your hands before the '77 election told you it had gone nothing but down. The report's available. Wel l, Mr. Speaker, let us hope that the First Min ister will stop talking about the Hydro freeze and rememb er what he said on Jan uary 13 th.

In the Carill on News it's reported, "Pawley promises his government will honor the Hydro rate freeze for the remaining two years of the agreement." I don't have much confidence in that, Mr. Speaker, because I have heard the First Min ister of this Province get up, say anything at anytime. All it does is he drives along in his car, sitting li ke a dumm y on Regeh r's knee; excuse me, Mr. Speaker, like a pupp et; that's a better word, and he winds him up continually and he walks out, sm iles to the crowd and says anything. Whatever you want to hear you'll get from him. One criticism that can't be said of us, Mr.

Speaker, what we said, we meant. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. l. FI. {Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I'd li ke to take a few min utes to participate in this debate on the Capital Supply Bill to register my dis appointment with the transparency of the govern ment's Interest Rate Rel ief Program which constitutes one of the major items in the sched ule attached to this Bill. At the outset, Mr. Speaker, I think it's important to pla ce on the record that I acknowledge, and my col leagues acknowledge, that the program does reflect a certain recognition by the government.

No one is dis puting the fact that in formu lating and introducing this Interest Rate Rel ief Program the New Democratic Government of Man itoba has add ressed a problem, has faced a problem, has said to the people of Mani toba and, indeed, to the people of Canada, there is a problem and we recognize it and acknowledge it. I

Monday, 29 March, 1982 give the government credit for that, Mr. Speaker, and I' m sure my colleagues do too. Bu t we have extreme difficulty with the nature of the program itself and with the realism of that program. Our difficu lty from the outset has been with the fact that it seems very much to us to represent a classic case of woolly thinking, or fuzzy thinking, if you lik e.

From the outset it has seemed to represent a classic of ideal ism not related to the facts, cold, hard and brutal facts of the day that face the three categories of Man itobans that are add ressed by the measures con tained in the program, but it represents, again, one of those sorry items to which we've made reference in earlier debate already dur ing this Session in this Cham ber, namely an election prom ise which was hol low and is proving now to be cynical and little better than a transparency.

The government, during the election cam paign, at the time that it was the Op position, made a comm it ment without waiting to see what Ottawa was going to do in the long delayed 19 82 Federal Bu dget, to a program that was going to offer emergency relief and satisfactory relief to those categories of Man itobans who were most severely hurt by the fiscal conditions of the day and high interest burdens.

Those three categories obviously, and they've been referred to many times, were the homeowners carrying exces sively high mortgate interest rates; small busine sses finding it extremely difficult under the fiscal and eco nomic and interest rate conditions of the day to main tain their inventories and stay in busi ness, and farmers throughout the province.

That category of Manito bans in trouble was add ressed during the election campaign by a prom ise, a pledge , to deliv er and put in place im media tely, an emergency interest rate relief program that was going to, in the rhetoric in which it was presented at any rate, offer relief to those suf fer ing categories of Man itobans.

We were critical of the pledge and the prom ise at the time, not because it was a position with which we took exception, or agains t which we had objec tion, not because of that, Sir, because as I have already pointed out, we do recognize, certainly I have, and I do agai n, recognize that it did reflect a willing ness on the part of the NOP to recognize a problem and to address it; to say people are suff ering, people are in trouble because of interest rates in this country and financial and economic conditions in this country and, to a large extent because of policies that have been pursue d by the Federal Government of the Day in this cou ntry.

They need some help and a provincial government, although it can't do much, can do something. On that same vein, I would say that it was imp licit in the ND P's promis e and, again, constituted a principle and an appr oach with which the Progressive Conser vative Party concurs, that a province can do very little, that the basic responsi bil ity in this area of difficu lty rests with the federal ad ministration.

The Federal Govern ment in Ottawa, of whatever stripe, the fact that it happens to be a Li beral Government has nothing to do with responsibil ities - it certainly has something to do with the way they may approach their responsibil ities - but any Federal Government in Ottawa has a cl ear undeniable and unarguable responsibil ity to do some thing to relieve the pres- 924 sures and burdens that are weighing down the Cana dian homeowner, the Canadian small busi nessman and the Canadian farmer today, as a result of fiscal and economic conditions flowi ng from both external factors and from the poli cies of a fiscal and economic nature being pur sued dome stically in Canada by that very government in Ottawa.

So we start from the accepted truism that the respon sibili ty rests with Ottawa, in the main, and action should have come from Ottawa and anything a Provincial Government can do is secondary and peripheral to federal action. We took the position that the Federal Government had a responsibili ty to initiate some programs and undertake some thrusts that would bring this interest rate relief requirement into being in this country.

Our Finance Min ister of the Day, the Honourable Mem ber for Tur tle Mountain, in fact, was the prime mover and instigator of an initiative among his cou nterparts, the other provincial Finance Min isters and the Federal Finance Minister, that called for joint federal-provincial action to formu late and produce a program that would get at this problem.

We took the position througho ut 19 81, in fact, that we were prepared to move as a Gove rnment in Man itoba to introduce such relie f as soon as we knew what the Federal Govern ment's intentions were and as soon as we, therefore, had the realistic opportunity to develop a provincial program that cou ld be tailored to dovetail with, and fit in with, and compli ment any federal initiative.

Wel l, the efforts of my colleague, the Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountain, in his capacity as Minis ter of Fina nce for Man itoba of the Day, were unsuc cessful; the efforts of our government throughout 19 81 , in attemp ting to get the Federal Government to address those economic problems, were unsu ccess ful. Many Canadian poli ticians, certainly federal poli ticians, were preoccup ied with the constitutional que stion in 19 81 - obviously many provincial politi cians were too, but that beca me a necessity of survi val, Mr. Speaker.

It was not possible for us to be other than heavily concerned with the constitutional debates of the time for Man itoba's very position, and our own concept and belie f in the concept of what Canada is all about and belie f in what Canada should be, was at stake.

Bu t our position had been throug hout, let us defer the urgent discussions now taking pla ce on the constitution and turn to a more urgent matter; and when we have it resolved get back to the constitu tional que stions, and that more urgent matter was this need for federal initiative and dovetailed federal and provincial action in the interest rate relief field.

We were totally uns uccessful in our efforts to persuade the Federal Govern ment of that, but when the Federal Min ister of Finance finally annou nced that he was bringing a budge t down in Novemb er of 19 81, we said we are ready to act alone to help the people of Mani toba if there's no federal action, but we' ll wait to see what's in that federal bud get and if there's nothing there for the homeowner carrying a mo rtgage with an oppressive interest rate, we will move in and do what we can on our own as a provincial ad min istration.

It was in that context that the NDP made their election prom ise and, as I say, we welcomed it as a recognition of a problem, but disputed the very viabil ity and the very structure of that New Dem ocratic program at the time that it was proposed, Mr. Speaker. We dispu ted it

Monday, 29 March, 1982 on the grounds that it was unrealistic, did not face the problem, constituted a gesture, and nothing more than a gesture, recognized the problem, but did n't do the meaningful things that could be done, the real hard prag matic things that could be done to help resolve that problem.

And today, in the Interest Rate Relie f Program, part of which is provided for in bud getary terms on Sche dule A of the very Capital Sup ply bill that we're deba t ing now, we've got that same unrealisitic gesture in front of us and in front of the people of Man itoba, a very nice gesture but totally nonpragmatic, a totally imprudent use of the scarce financial and fiscal resources and revenues of the taxpayers of Man itoba. If you've only got a certain amount of money to spend, Mr.

Speaker, for heaven's sake, no matter who the government is, whether it's the New Dem ocrats or the Progressive Conservatives, let us spend it sensibly and pragma tically; let us get the big gest bang out of it that we can. And our position remains that this is not a program that does that; that is not pragmatic in its appr oach; that, to a certain extent and a fairly broad extent, represents another posture on the part of this government which is hol low and which is going to prove unproduc tive for those Man itobans whose expectations and hopes have been raised and that's the worst feature of it, Mr. Speaker.

With the announc

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-23a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 23a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a8712cd1a0e03b200fec2a74230f548b627fc6ce

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