ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Waldlnfl Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 41A -2:00 p.m., THURS DAY, 7 APRIL, 1983. Printed by the Office of the o._,,s PrinlM. Province ot Mllniloba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry· T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East TuxP.do Concordia Swan River Virden Kirktield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 7 April, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. PRESE NTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Wald ing: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. CLERK, B. Remnant: Mr. Speaker, the Petition of the Society of Management Accountants of Manitoba, praying for the passing of

An Act to amend The Society of Management Accountants of Manitoba Act. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions . Presenting Reports By Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a further report in respect to the spring runoff outlook, particularly highlighting the Dauphin-Swan River area. The Water Resources Branch indicates that the March 31 st snowstorm has significantly raised the flood potential on streams flowing off the Riding Duck and Porcupine Mountains.

Storm precipitation in the area ranged from 20 to 40 millimeters of water. Over bank flows are likely to occur on the Valley River, and the Wilson River, and on most smaller streams flowing eastward off the Duck Mountain. As well, shoreline flooding of low-lying areas surrounding Dauphin Lake is probable. The degree of flooding will depend to a large extent on the nature of the breakup. If there is a rapid snowmelt or significant additional precipitation, flooding could be severe. However, if the snowmelt is slow and there is no further precipitation, flooding would be minimal.

A fast melt and some additional precipitation likely would result in some flooding on the Little Saskatchewan River, the Oak River, Birdtail Creek, the Whitemud River, the Turtle River, the Vermilion River, the Shell River, the Swan River and on many other smaller streams whose headwaters are in the Riding, Duck and Porcupine Mountains. The Branch indicates that run-off has not yet fully begun in the Riding, Duck and Porcupine Mountain areas. A close check will be kept on the run-off and flood potential of these regions. Further reports will be issued if flood prospects change significantly. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: I thank the Honourable Minister, Mr. Speaker, for his statement. It's not new to Manitobans that these kind of statements include a lot of "ifs" - if the weather stays a particular way and temperatures stay a particular way, or if we should get greater amounts of precipitation. I'm assuming, Mr.

Speaker, although the First Minister doesn't note, particularly inasmuch as much of the flooding forecast here has to do with the area in the northwestern part of our province, which involves the Shellmouth control structure, that structure is being operated as it was designed to operate, to pond as much water as possible and release water at its appropriate times. I perhaps will have some questions for the Minister in that during the question period. I take advantage, Mr. Speaker, of responding to the Minister in his statement.

I note that he makes no comment at all about potential flooding problems on the Icelandic River, where in fact where two illegal structures, dams, have been built on around the Peguis Indian Reserve. I'm assuming that its deletion from any mention in the report that the branch is monitoring that situation and that indeed it's under control.

I've had several occasions to remind the Honourable Minister that it's a cause of concern to many of the surrounding residents, as indeed it should be a cause of concern to the residents of the Peguis Indian Reserve, should those earthen structures that were put up last fall fail under the pressure of high water. Again, Mr. Speaker, I may wish to ask the Minister some further questions on that during the question period. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills .. INTRODUCTION Of GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where there are 19 students of Grade 5 standing from the Marion School, under the direction of Miss Chomichuk. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health. There are 110 students of Grade 9 standing from the Edmund Partridge Junior High School under the direction of Mr. Penner, Mrs. Harvie, and other teachers. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. On behalf of all of the members I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTIONS Garrison Diversion Project MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. I'd like to ask the First Minister if arrangements have yet been completed for a joint parliamentary group to 1488

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 visit Washington to lobby against the Garrison Diversion Project. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the First Minister. Has this possibility been discussed with the Federal Government, the Department of External Affairs, in recent days? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it would be more appropriate for the Minister responsible for Resources to respond to that question and give the honourable member more detailed information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A.

MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I have had occasion to meet with the Minister of External Affairs and the committee, and with me were colleagues. At that meeting in Ottawa we discussed a further delegation to Washington. The principle of a further delegation has been agreed upon. The timing of the visit and the exact numbers of the delegation are something that we have to further discuss. At the present time we're not sure as to the appropriate timing of a visit to Washington. We'll be determined on that by the best advice that our legal advisor in Washington gives.

Insofar as the composition of the delegation, that is a matter that has to be discussed further with the Federal Government and the key Ministers there. MR. B. RANSOM: A supplementary then to the Minister of Natural Resources, Mr. Speaker, can he advise the House when that meeting took place? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I'm not certain whether or not it will be necessary to have a meeting in Ottawa. I think arrangements will be endeavoured to be made by telephone. MR. B. RANSOM: Perhaps the Minister didn't hear the question, Mr. Speaker.

The question was, when did that meeting to which he referred take place? HON. A. MACK LING: About two weeks ago, Mr. Speaker. MR. B. RANSOM: A further question then, Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister.

In view of the fact that the Minister of Natural Resources has since that time been the subject of a strongly-worded protest from the United States Embassy regarding that Minister's involvement in a demonstration in front of the United States Consulate on March 23rd, does the First Minister believe that the interests of Manitoba will be well served by having the Minister of Natural Resources part of that delegation going to Washington? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Judge Jewers Report on lotteries MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R.

BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question which I direct to the Minister in charge of Lotteries and would ask him if he could inform the House when he expects to have the final report on Lotteries by Judge Jewers? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , the best information that I can share with the House is that I have been discussing this with Judge Jewers a week or so ago. They're in the final draft now; there was some information that they were still waiting for. I think that they've had to issue a summons to get the proper information.

I might say that the Act, if this is not known yet, has been proclaimed and a board is being named now. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Spea ker, a supplementary question to the same Minister. In light of the fact that the new Act has now been proclaimed and a new board has been put in place, can the Minister assure this House that the new board and the guide lines established several years ago, which allows only 12 casinos to be licenced in Winnipeg, that that particular guideline will stay and that we will not see a proliferation of lotteries in this province and casinos under this new board? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That, Mr.

Speaker, is a question of policy and the policy will be announced in due course to the House. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, in light of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the policy with regard to the licencing of casinos in this province is established by Cabinet and by the Minister, would he be able to tell the House what kind of guidelines he has given the new board? In other words, has the new board been instructed to operate under the old guidelines of 12 casinos in this province, or is the Minister intending to opening that up and expanding that particular casino avenue in this province. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, until there is a new policy or the policies are announced, we're still going under the same guidelines we have been. Peguis Indian Reserve - flooding MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Natural Resources and I ask him, further to his statement with respect to flooding potential in the province, is he satisfied, or is the Water Resources Branch monitoring the situation on the Fisher River at the Peguis Indian Reserve? 1489

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, earlier on this week I indicated through the report that I gave that the flood prospects in most of the province were favourable. There were some areas of concern and I highlighted those in the report that I gave. In the Interlake area there is less flooding concern. That's not to say, as the honourable member pointed out in his reply to my earlier statement, that those reports are not subject to qualifications.

In the event that there is any significant precipitation or any unusual weather conditions develop, there could be significant problems. Howe ver, based on the advice that the department has given, the amount of precipitation that has taken place, the snowmelt and so on, the Interlake area is relatively favourable. MR. H. ENNS: I thank the Minister for that response but, Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister what is being done to remove the illegal dams that are blocking the normal passage of water on the Fisher River? Mr.

Speaker, if any other citizen threw a dam across a stream or river in Manitoba, he would be dealt with, with some dispatch. As long as those dams are in place, they are in difficulty and I ask the Minister, what is the Minister, what is this government doing about removing those illegal dams, that as long as they're in place, are a potential hazard not only to the residents of the Peguis Indian Reserve but also to neighbouring residents? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, the same question was asked by the same member in this House on a previous occasion and I gave him a full answer then. ! don't like to be repetitive, but I will. If the honourable member wants to hear again that we have written to the Federal Government. The darns in question have, in fact, been installed in areas of the reserve itself. We have no automatic right-of-entry onto reserved land, but we have taken the matter up with Ottawa. We are awaiting word from them. We have had direct consultation with the Chief and Band members.

We have reviewed the matter of a potential flooding and we have taken steps to ensure that should any flooding occur we're in a position to deal with the matter swiftly. MFI. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , I just remind the Honourable Minister that the same Band and the same Indian Chief, threatened to build those dams when I was last Minister of Natural Resources and I made it plain, very clear to them that those dams would not be built. I would have moved in the army. I'm asking the Minister, what is he doing to remove those illegal darns?

They are a danger to not only the Band themselves but to the surrounding community. Flood Forecast MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: I thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. I'm wondering, Mr. Speaker, because of the fact that the Valley River, the Wilson River and the Shell River are all mentioned in his release today, if his staff were in there sitting down with the municipalities in the area and helping them discuss the possibilities that do exist. I note that the Assiniboine River is not mentioned in the release.

Due to the problems we've had in the past with the Shellmouth Dam flooding, I wonder if the Minister could - especially the municipality of Shellmouth - have his staff contact them and alert them to some of the problems that they could face this spring. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the Assiniboine River flood condition I reported on earlier as well.

I indicated that there could well be some minor flooding in some areas but it wasn't indicated in that report that there would be any significant problem in the area of Manitoba that the honourable member refers to, in the northwest portion of the province where the Assiniboine flows in from Saskatchewan. That did not appear to be a problem area. I will certainly ask staff to look at that in respect to the state of readiness of municipalities to deal with the problems. Staff in the Department of Natural Resources, and staff in the Emergency Measures office have a comprehensive plan. They've reviewed that.

The municipalities are the first resource that people turn to and then our department plays backup to the needs of the municipalities. MR. W. McKENZIE: I thank the Honourable Minister for those comments, Mr. Speaker. But I ask him then, this plan then is in the hands of the municipalities that I'm referring to, Grandview, Gilbert Plains, Hillsburg, or those that are affected from the Wilson and the Valley Rivers. The plans that are available, they have copies of them? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, when I refer to plans I'm advised that my department and Emergency Measures Organization have reviewed the details of all of the arrangements for backup in respect to municipal needs when emergencies arise in respect to flooding or other disasters. Brandon Auction Mart - Beef Income Assurance Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Acting Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of Co-op Development who is in charge of the co-operative movement in Manitoba. In view of the fact - and I know it was raised yesterday in question period, Mr.

Speaker - that one of Manitoba's largest farm co-ops is indicating that the recently implemented Beef Program in Manitoba has put severe pressure on that farmer-owned co-op's investment in Brandon, that quite a lot of the business is now being lost to a state-operated marketing organization, will the Minister of Co-op Development make representation 1490

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 to his Cabinet colleagues and to the Beef Commission to lay out the case that it is, in fact, the farmers-owned organization that are losing money; and that, in fact, there will be many jobs lost as has been indicated; and that it is not in the best interests of the farm movement or in the historical pattern of farmers' operating co­ ops and investing with confidence in them, will he make representation to protect the investment the farmers have in that co-operative movement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to mention the fact that the Minister of Agriculture did deal with this issue the other day in the course of the Estimates debate I believe, and indeed in the course of question period previously, but I will draw again attention of this problem to the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, my question is directly to the Minister of Co-op Development. Will he make representation to his Cabinet colleagues and the Beef Commission as a representative of the co­ operative movement in Manitoba, so that the investors which are farmers who own those facilities, Mr.

Speaker, will he make representation so that there is a fair and equitable representation made on behalf of those farm co-operative movements, directly to the Minister of Co­ op Development? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Co-op Development is not present. I would suggest that message can be conveyed to him as well. Oil Exploration MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines.

Can the Minister of Energy and Mines advise the House whether or not Manitoba Mineral Resources has been involved in any way with oil exploration, either on its own or by way of joint venture, at any time during the last year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: To make sure, Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. Criteria for Appointments to Boards MR. B. RANSOM: A question to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker.

Over a year ago, I placed a written question on the order paper simply asking the First Minister if he could provide the House with the criteria used in the selection of persons for appointments to boards and commissions. 1 ·have been assured on several occasions that this information would be forthcoming, both by 1491 the House Leader and by the First Minister. Since the First Minister continues to make appointments to boards and commissions, I assume he has some criteria by which he is working. Will the First Minister advise the House when he will provide an answer to that written question? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: We will be providing that information shortly. I must indicate we've been somewhat inhibited by the fact that we are unable to ascertain any previous criteria that was used by the previous Conservative Government for the Province of Manitoba, from 1977 to 1981. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question had to do with the NOP Government, of which the Member for Selkirk is the First Minister. Had he asked the question four years ago he would have had an answer before now. We would not have allowed a year to pass before that happens.

A supplementary question to the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition placed an Order for Return on the - (Interjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: On a point of order, I think it's necessary that you - (Interjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. HON. H. PAWLEY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The member appears to have asked a question, then raced on to a secondary question. I don't know, indeed, Mr.

Speaker, whether you recognized it simply as a speech on the part of the honourable member, which I think is contrary to the rules of this House, that speeches be granted and then followed up by speakers to another member. I look to you for some guidance, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I would hope that all members would familiarize themselves with the extract from Beauchesne that I circulated in the recent past and that they would guide their actions accordingly for question period. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I certainly apologize for any deviation from the rules brought on by the First Minister choosing to go beyond the question which was asked to it. Civil Service Selection Boards - Order for Return MR. B. RANSOM: My question to the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition filed an Order for Return during Decemb er, I believe, having to do with the composition of Civil Service Selection

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 Boards. Since the Civil Service Estimates will be before the House within the next few days, will the Minister of Labour assure the House that we will have that Order for Return prior to her Civil Service Estimates being dealt with? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the member is aware of how much time it takes to gather such information as was requested in this particular Order for Return. Staff has a lot of work to do. They will get to this Order for Return when they have the time, and it will be brought to this House in due course. MR.

B. RANSOM: A supplementary to the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker. Does the Minister think that it will be possible for the opposition to adequately deal with her Estimates of the Civil Service Commission without information as vital as this? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, the particular item under discussion, I believe, is selection committees.

I might point out to the member that the newsletter sent out by the Civil Service Commission - by the way, this is within my responsibility as Minister of the Civil Service Commission, not Minister of Labour - the last issue of their newsletter which is called "Inside Outlook" had a very complete and extensive explanation of how these selection committees are chosen and the rationale behind them.

It explained to every civil servant that we have exactly how this is done and I'm sure the members can avail themselves of that diagram and complete explanation, so that they can understand, too, how we choose selection committees. MR. B. RANSOM: A further supplementary to the Minister of Labour. Mr. Speaker, our Order for Return had nothing to do with any sort of information that the Minister might be putting forward. In the interests of being able to deal with her Estimates in a forthright and expeditious manner, will the Minister undertake to file that?

Will she attempt at least to have that information filed prior to her Estimates either commencing or at the very least prior to her Estimates being completed? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, for the third time around, I explained very carefully in a response to the Leader of the Opposition when that Order for Return was accepted that it was a lengthy procedure and it would take time to gather the information. That answer still stands. MR. B.

RANSOM: A further question to the Minister of Labour, can she advise the House approximately how many Civil Service selection committees there are have been, or how many civil servants have been hired into the government during the past year? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, the specifics in answer to that question will be available certainly during the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission. I don't have that number with me today. Jobs Fund - allocation of funds MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday I asked the Minister of Labour whether or not the funds for the advertising campaign which her department is conducting were coming from the Jobs Fund? In other words, the advertising that they were doing, promoting the Jobs Fund, whether or not those funds were coming from that total Jobs Fund? Could she tell us today whether or not that indeed is the case? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, part of any program is dissemination of information.

It is important that we get information to every business, to every farm, to every possible group of employers who wish to participate with us in providing jobs for Manitobans. We will do whatever is necessary and, of course, the money will come from the allocations involved in promoting and activating those programs. We will do whatever we feel is necessary to create jobs for Manitobans. That is our goal and that's what we will do. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could inform the House why she, yesterday, then refused to answer the question in the Legislature and said it would be more properly dealt with by an Order for Return or during the Estimates, then walked outside the door and answered the question to a reporter that asked her the same question. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I think that is a very unfair question. There was no amount given to any reporter. I have never given an amount of money spent from any fund on a particular advertisement or on any kind of brochure or advertising. Removal of Dead Farm Animals - operators MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On April 5th, the Member for Emerson asked me a question respecting the exact number of operators in the business of removing dead farm animals. I took it as notice and indicated to him that I would respond to him when I had detailed information. - (Interjection) - This is to inform . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert on a point of order. MR. G. MERCIER: On a point of order, the Minister said he had detailed information, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if he might simply table the information or send it over to the Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: I'm sorry, if I left the inference that by being detailed it would be lengthy, it is not. I was 1492

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 only awaiting for some calm on the other side so that the Member for Emerson could listen to the question and hear the answer in case he wanted to follow-up on it. This is to inform him that there are currently eight operators in the business of removing dead animals in the province. We understand that there are four other "private collector services" who service their local areas and use the bone-meat directly in animal feeding.

Further to that, there are two rendering plants in the City of Winnipeg and one rendering plant in Brandon which will accept dead animals under certain circumstances but they do not offer a pickup service. Careerstart Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Labour.

In view of the fact that I have received complaints from a number of people in municipalities who have just received the package of information about the Careerstart Program, and in view of the fact that the Minister's large ads do not contain any indication as to when the applications have to be filed, but the Minister has established April 15th as the final date for filing of applications for benefits under that program and that, Mr. Speaker, is only one week from tomorrow, can the Minister now confirm that date of April 15th will be extended? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I've answered that question on an almost daily basis in this House. It is under consideration and I will announce a new date, if that is our decision, as soon as I have it. Appeal re Mur der charge - Sans regret MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Attorney-General. Could the Attorney-General advise the House if he intends to appeal the sentence handed down within the last day or so to a young man by the name of Sansregret? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: The practice in the department, as the Honourable Member for St.

Norbert probably recalls, is that there is a Review Committee - senior officials in the department, the Deputy Attorney­ General, Director of Prosecutions, Senior Crown Prosecutor - they will be meeting in regular session, I believe, before the end of this week. I am advised that one of the cases which will be reviewed is the case referred to; I will be advised of the recommendation that they propose to make.

It has been my practice to follow the recommendation made by the Review Committee, although in extraordim�ry circumstance it would be open to myself as Attorney-General to reverse or not to accept such recommendation. But I will wait to hear what fhe recommendation is and, if necessary, make any further announcement to the House. Alcan Aluminum Project MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, on April 5th in my absence, the First Minister took as notice questions regarding Alcan and I'd like to inform the House that meetings have taken place between senior officials of my department and Alcan almost two months ago and that further meetings are tentatively scheduled for some time in May depending upon whether in fact the schedules of the senior Alcan officials and myself can be worked out. It will be towards the end of May or some time in June, so further meetings are being scheduled for discussions with Alcan.

Further, another question was asked as to whether in fact Alcan is picking up options of land in Manitoba, and as far as I can tell they aren't. I certainly checked into any type of land dealings of Alcan or any other companies in Manitoba.

Another question was raised with respect to investments indicating that somehow there was left the impression that Alcan was undertaking an immediate investment of some $2 billion in Quebec and that isn't the case, although they have a very large investment there of plant which is a bit obsolete and in fact causing some pollution problems, so it has always been part of Alcan's long-term plans to modernize that facility, the one at Jonquiere that is presently creating environmental problems, and that has always been part of their long-term plan and that, may in fact, be carried out over the next two decades.

It's been on their books and has been discussed for some time in the past - I'd say over the last 10 years. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Minister for responding to those questions that I put to the government two days ago. Will the Minister simply confirm, seeing as how he is obviously keeping abreast of what Alcan is doing, that in fact, Alcan is increasing capacity substantially, along with modernization in the Province of Quebec? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, directly to that question, I'd like to quote from the Annual Report of Alcan which said that they brought their third and final 57-ton-a-year potline at Grande Baie. They completed it at the end of 1982 and it was ready for production. However, the third line, like the second line, which was completed in 1981, will not be brought into production until the demand for aluminum improves. So they were in the middle of a construction program, the depression was so deep, Mr. Speaker, that they, in fact, have not brought into production plants that they built in 1981 and 1982.

So we'll have to wait for some period of time until the demand increases significantly, so that they will bring in those plants into production. Yes, we have been keeping close tabs. It indicates that right now they have a surplus capacity for the production of aluminum. 1493

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure if the Honourable Minister reads further from that same report, he'll note that the President, Mr. Colver, says that 1985 looks like a great year for the aluminum industry and Alcan is gearing up to take advantage of it. Now we're talking about a five, six, seven year span to get something going and I simply ask the Honourable Minister . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order? HON. R. PENNER: Well, for the last two days the Member for Lakeside has thought that he's quite able to take advantage of question period and give speeches instead of

preambles and you've ruled so often that supplementaries should be proceeded by at most a simple, perhaps one sentence,

preamble. I would again ask that you make clear to the House, if you so will, Sir, what the practice is with respect to supplementary questions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside to the same point. MR. H. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I've always been one to acknowledge your judgment in these matters.

I've also been in this House for a little while, somewhat longer than the Honourable House Leader of the Government, the Attorney-General, to know that it is the job and the responsibility of the Speaker to call individual members to order from time to time, as they sometimes fall out of order and, Sir, I know that has happened on occasion with me. So I prevail upon you, Sir, to call me to order from time to time, as I know you will, Mr. Speaker, as I know you will. Now I would like to proceed with my question to the Honourable Minister, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. H.

ENNS: My question is simply this . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'm sure that the honourable member has sufficient experience, as he has noticed, in order to be able to restrict himself to the requirements of Beauchesne. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, are you ruling that the Government House Leader has a valid point of order? MR. SPEAKER: I'm not sure whether it was in fact a breach of any rule that we have in this House or of Beauchesne. I simply remind the honourable member that a question may contain a

preamble, that it should be couched in terms of one sentence, and that a supplementary question should not need a

preamble. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr. Speaker, just between you and me, I want you to know that I always take your admonishments very seriously, and I'll remember them. My question to the Honourable Minister of Energy, you know, he is well aware that the kind of project that was being planned are indeed a decade in the making - seven, eight years. My question is, that same report that he is .. . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order? HON. R.

PENNER: The Member for Lakeside says that he will remember what you have told him. His memory span appears to be shorter than that of a two-week old infant. - (Interjection) - Yes, that's right. He didn't say for how long he'd remember it. Apparently his memory is not that long or his attention span. I think the matter should not be treated lightly. I don't often rise on a point of order during question period. - (Interjection) - Be careful you could have the Minister of Natural Resources doing . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. R.

PENNER: But at times it becomes necessary, and I did it because it was necessary. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain to the same point. MR. B. RANSOM: Yes, on the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, I think it is improper for the Government House Leader to interrupt the member asking a question in order to launch an insult against that member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside may complete his question. MR. H. ENNS: A simple, straightforward question, Mr. Speaker.

Will the Minister of Energy confirm that the Alcan Aluminum Company of Canada will be spending $2 billion in the Province of Quebec in the next two decades? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to indicate that over the next two decades in Manitoba, I'm quite certain that we will have many billions of investment taking place within this province. When one tries to look at investment patterns over two decades, one gets very speculative.

The previous government was being very speculative as it came into an election campaign, Mr. Speaker. It used a lot of public taxpayers' money to, in fact, publicize their speculations, Mr. Speaker. What we are doing, Mr. Speaker, is we are proceeding to try and make sure that we can develop the best developments for Manitoba, despite the fact that we have had a very deep recession. There may be those types of developments in Quebec, there may not be; it's hard to say, Mr. Speaker. To answer that would be to speculate, I certainly wouldn't want to speculate on the developments that take place in other provinces.

What has happened from the report, and this is from the report, is that the Chairman of the Board indicates, 1494

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 "In the light of current conditions, we are cutting capital expenditures wherever possible" and this is a direct quote from the report. "Some projects have been postponed. The Manitoba Smelter Project, for example, while others have been stretched out." That is the quote directly from the Annual Report and that indeed is the story that exists, Mr. Speaker. - (Interjection) - That's not what the opposition is trying to put across, that is not what they're trying to put across, Mr. Speaker.

They're taking something completely out of context and trying to say that something is happening in Quebec right at this time that isn't happening in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, and that is not true at all. MR. B. RANSON: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on a point of order. MR. B.

RANSOM: In reference to Beauchesne, Citation 358, dealing with Oral Questions, "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." I suggest, Sir, that the sort of answers that we have been getting from the Ministers opposite, such as the Minister of Energy and Mines, are clearly in violation of that Citation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health on the same point. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, on the same point of order. It's also said, Mr. Speaker, that in putting the question the member must confine himself to the narrowest limits.

In making a question and observation which might lead to debate cannot be regarded as coming within the proper limits of a question. MR. SPEAKER: I thank both honourable members. They were correct and I would hope that answers should not provoke any further debate from the House. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Order for Return No. 12 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney-General. Last year the government accepted an Order for Return, No. 12.

I've been given to understand by the Minister of Economic Development that it's ready, or nearly ready, and I would like to ask the Minister, the Attorney-General, or House Leader when that will be tabled in the House? I certainly hope he could answer the question without insulting me. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I find it unnecessary to insult the honourable member. The Order for Return requested the names of individuals who had received loans from the government, individual loans. It's tr\,le that the Return has been prepared and is in my possession.

I am considering the legal position of the government before I file H in terms of the privilege of those individuals. When I have satisfied myself that we are not, in fact, unintentionally, but nevertheless breaching the privacy of those individuals such that we might be subject to a suit, I will then, having satisfied myself of the legal position, either file or not file, but certainly I will advise the House if there is a decision not to file of what the legal opinion is. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. COMM ITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D.

DODICK: I have a committee change for Agriculture; I would like the Minister for Municipal Affairs replaced with the Member for The Pas. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. iR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make some changes on the Law Amendments Committee - the Member for Lakeside for the Member for Arthur; the Member for St. Norbert for the Member for Virden; and the Member for Roblin-Russell for the Member for Emerson. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, before moving the motion on Supply, I'd just like to advise the House, first of all, that according to the notice, as circulated, Law Amendments is meeting at 8 o'clock this evening. In accordance with that I've consulted with the Opposition House Leader and . A MEMBER: Unusual. HON. R. PENNER: Well, not as unusual as you're led to believe.

And by leave, asking the leave of the House, that this evening, rather than have the members in difficulties with respect to too many committee meetings, it would be the intention, by leave, to have Health Estimates continue in the House, Labour Estimates would not continue, but Law Amendments would take place as announced. I would therefore move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and that the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of Ways and Means for raising of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR.

SPEAKER: It is moved by the Honourable Attorney-General and seconded by the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Is it agreed? Agreed and so ordered. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. 1495

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 MR. B. RANSOM: There seems to be some indication that the Government House Leader moved that the House resolve itself in the Committee of Ways and Means. Perhaps the Government House Leader should correct the record then, if that was the intention because there's a strong indication here that he actually said Ways and Means. HON. R. PENNER: No, I said the Committee of Supply to - (Interjection) - Well, if I did, and the Member for Tuxedo is so quick and pays so much attention that he may be right, may I correct the record.

It was my motion, or I intended to move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply to consider of the Ways and Means for the raising of Supply, or whatever the words are. They used to give these pieces of paper. Well, Mr. Speaker, just for the record because I may have erred, even Homer nodds it is said, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That was the question that was put to the House and resolved in the affirmative. The House is now in Committee of Supply.

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LABOUR AND EMPLOYMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. In order to facilitate our proceedings, initially I'd like to make it clear that there is a basic principle in administration that accountability should be commensurate with authority; therefore, no one should be held accountable for anything of which the person has no authority. I understand that there is a separate budgetary item for the Jobs Fund and it will come in due course of time. Therefore, all substantive questions about the Jobs Fund would be relevant at that time.

It is not fair for the Minister of Labour to be held accountable for anything about which she has no authority. We are now on budget Item 3.(a)(1). The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the difficulty we have is that the Minister of Labour in this government doesn't want to be responsible for job creation. Mr. Chairman, we went through a number of items when last we spoke on this appropriation, and we received no information whatsoever from the Minister with respect to the number of jobs to be created by two projects which have been approved under the Jobs Fund. The Minister did say, Mr.

Chairman, that she was prepared to discuss under this item, inasmuch as is included in this appropriation, money for four people to monitor the Jobs Fund. She was prepared to discuss a job creation project under the Jobs Fund which involved her department. So my first question, Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister, in view of the fact that her opening statement on Page 8 in which she said that "In addition, $3 million of our ongoing job creation initiatives have been transferred into a central fund also controlled by the Department of Finance," the Minister confirmed that the $3 million she is referring to are the monies allocated to the Careerstart Program for young people. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: This is money that would have been used in our budget for some form of job creation for youth, as summer students, as we did last year.

It was deemed wise to put that money into the central fund and to redesign a program and request from the fund an initial grant of $3 million since that's about what was spent in previous years. I have made it clear throughout that $3 million is an amount that can be added to, if need be. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister not then confirm in view of the fact that the $3 million was transferred from her departmental budget into the Jobs Fund to make the Jobs Fund appear to be more than it really is?

Would she confirm that the advertisements for the Careerstart Program that say, the Jobs Fund makes it happen, do not represent indeed the true facts, this is an ongoing program? HON. M. DOLIN: From the start, Mr. Chairman, we have never said that the $200 million is all new money. We have never said that. What we have said is that we need to be able to co-ordinate, to monitor, to centrally administer this entire fund. We need to know what is going on in all aspects of job creation, so that we can be constantly aware of where we need to target our efforts.

That kind of co-ordination is only possible if you centralize the fund. To these monies, that were transferred from some departments into this central fund administered by the Department of Finance, were added additional monies. We could have reduced our deficit. We decided what was more important was creating jobs for Manitobans. MR. G. MERC IER: Mr. Chairman, in view of the Minister's statement that this Jobs Fund is not all new money, I thank her for making that acknowledgment. Could she confirm how much of the Jobs Fund is not new money? How much is being transferred from other departments? HON. M.

DOLIN: This question directly relates to the Jobs Fund and would be an appropriate question which would be answered under that appropriation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACK LING: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, that information was already given by the Minister of Finance when he introduced the Budget. - (Interjection) - Yes it was. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Well, perhaps the Minister of Natural Resources will give us the figure then? 1496

HON. A. MACKLING: It's a matter of public record. In the Budget Speech, the Minister of Finance indicated something like $100 million of the total of $200 million are monies that otherwise would be in various programs that are being brought forward and put under that heading. It's a matter of public record. That's in the statement that he made during the Budget Speech. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Minister of Natural Resources for making it clear then that one­ half of the Jobs Fund is not any new money at all, is not any new initiative at all, and that what we are involved here in and all of this advertising of the Jobs Fund is 50 percent incorrect when the department says in their ads that the Jobs Fund makes it happen. HON. A. MACKLING: I'm being quoted out of context. I indicated that approximately one-half was discretionary , it's discretionary spending within departments. That doesn't mean to say that it would ordinarily have been spent. HON. M. DOLIN: This is out of order.

Point of order. MR. CHAIR MAN: A disagreement between two members is not a point of order. HON. M. DOLIN: I would like to raise a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, . . . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister not then confirm in view of the fact that the $3 million was transferred from her departmental budget into the Jobs Fund to make the Jobs Fund appear to be more than it really is? Would she confirm that the advertisements for the Careerstart Program that say, the Jobs Fund makes it happen, do not represent indeed the true facts, this is an ongoing program? HON. M. DOLIN: From the start, Mr.

Chairman, we have never said that the $200 million is all new money. We have never said that. What we have said is that we need to be able to co-ordinate, to monitor, to centrally administer this entire fund. We need to know what is going on In all aspects of job creation, so that we can be constantly aware of where we need to target our efforts. That kind of co-ordination is only possible if you centralize the fund. To these monies, that were transferred from some departments into this central fund administered by the Department of Finance, were added additional monies. We could have reduced our deficit.

We decided what was more important was creating jobs for Manitobans. MR. G. MERC IER: Mr. Chairman, in view of the Minister's statement that this Jobs Fund is not all new money, I thank her for making that acknowledgment. Could she confirm how much of the Jobs Fund is not new money? How much is being transferred from other departments? HON. M. DOLIN: This question directly relates to the Jobs Fund and would be an appropriate question which would be answered under that appropriation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: On a point of order, Mr.

Chairman, that information was already given by the Minister of Finance when he introduced the Budget. - (Interjection) - Yes it was. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, perhaps the Minister of Natural Resources will give us the figure then? HON. A. MACKLING: It's a matter of public record. In the Budget Speech, the Minister of Finance indicated something like $100 million of the total of $200 million are monies that otherwise would be in various programs that are being brought forward and put under that heading. It's a matter of public record.

That's in the statement that he made during the Budget Speech. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister of Natural Resources for making it clear then that one­ half of the Jobs Fund is not any new money at all. is not any new initiative at all, and that what we are involved here in and all of this advertising of the Jobs Fund is 50 percent incorrect when the department says in their ads that the Jobs Fund makes it happen . HON. A. MACKLING: I'm being quoted out of context. I indicated that approximately one-half was discretionary , it's discretionary spending within departments.

That doesn't mean to say that it would ordinarily have been spent. HON. M. DOLIN: This is out of order. Point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: A disagreement between two members is not a point of order. A MEMBER: Right. MS. M. PHILLIPS: I would like to raise a point of order, Mr. Chairperson. Is it my turn? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Thank you.

We already clarified at the beginning of this discussion that the details of the Jobs Fund were not up for discussion at this committee meeting, and for members on both sides of this table to start into an argument about the specifics about the Jobs Fund, I think, is totally out of order in this context. I think we should get back to the line-by-line discussion on the Estimates of the Department of Labour and Employment Services. MR.

CHAIRMAN: May I remind again the members of the committee that speeches, according to Rule 64(2), "Speeches in a Committee of the Whole must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion." The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for keeping this whole matter on track, because we're talking about expenditures for four employees in this appropriation who are monitoring the Jobs Fund, its effectiveness, how many jobs it's created and now we 1497

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 have confirmed for us that one-half of the $200 million Jobs Fund is composed of programs which have been ongoing in various departments throughout this government. That's why, Mr. Chairman, we prefer to call this the "Jobs Fraud Fund." Now, Mr. Chairman, I believe with respect to this Careerstart Program, could the Minister advise the costs of the advertisement and public relations involved in the newspaper ad vertisements that have been appearing in, at least, the Winnipeg Free Press? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: First, Mr.

Chairperson, the half and half figure being touted by the members of the opposition at this point is not accurate. Secondly, the details of the Jobs Fund, whether it has to do with programs within it or the amount of money allocated to the Jobs Fund, is not appropriate under this particular part of the Estimates and I will not enter into debate on that or answer questions on it until the appropriate time. Thirdly . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: May I interrupt? What is the point of order? MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has just indicated that the information that my colleague has indicated that one-half the money of the $200 million Jobs Fund was from existing programs and is not new money . The Minister indicates that is not a true statement. That is the statement of her Minister of Natural Resources, a Cabinet colleague of this Pawley Government. Is she indicating that the Minister of Natural Resources misled this committee? HON. M. DOLIN: To the same point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's not a point of order. It's a disagreement between members of the committee. MR. D.

ORCHARD: No, it's a disagreement within Cabinet. HON. M. DOLIN: He's trying to make something out of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: It doesn't make it a point of order. The Honourable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: As I was saying before I was interrupted, the details of the appropriations with the Jobs Fund and the absolute accuracy of those figures will be given to the members under that appropriation. Indications of approximations can be made here as people branch out in their discussions under the Minister's Salary

section of the Estimates. However, specific questions as to advertising within the Jobs Fund, allocations to particular programs within the Jobs Fund. are not appropriate to be asked here and will not be answered here. They will be answered under the Appropriation 29, Jobs Fund. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister on Tuesday evening indicated she was prepared, at least in one area, to give us some answers and that was with respect to the Careerstart Program because it was an ongoing function of her department. So I'm asking her, Mr. Chairman, what the cost of advertising is for this particular program?

HON. M. DOLIN: Correction, Mr. Chairman. I did not say it was an ongoing function of my department. MR. G. MERCIER: The Minister in her opening remarks on Page 8, said it was $3 million of her ongoing job creation initiatives was transferred into a central fund . She has confirmed that the $3 million is being used for the Careerstart Program which has been a continuing program for employment to youth. I'm asking her the costs of advertising the program. HON. M.

DOLIN: If the member would read that carefully and would read the Budget Address of my colleague, the Minister of Finance, he would understand that there were dollar amounts transferred. The indication that that exact amount would be spent, or on what it would be spent, was certainly not determined. It was a money transfer. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister answer the question, what is the cost of advertising for the Careerstart Program? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister may answer if it is within her responsibility.

If it's not and it is beyond her responsibility, there is always time for everything under the sun. It will come when the item, Jobs Fund, comes up. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister refusing to answer that question? MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Minister reply, if she wishes to? HON. M. DOLIN: The point I have made over and over again is, that it is not appropriate for me to discuss expenditures from the Jobs Fund during my Estimates. The expenditures and the Jobs Fund are not within these Estimates. The expenditure for advertising for the program that you refer to, Careerstart, was made from the Jobs Fund.

Now, we could do this very piecemeal and every Minister as they go through their Estimates could add a little bit of information here and a little bit of information there and you would not have the complete picture that you will have when we discuss these Estimates, rationally and in totality, during Appropriation 29. I believe that it's the appropriate place to do it. I believe that is what other Ministers will also tell you as we go through these Estimates. We have given a high profile to the Jobs Fund Estimates debate.

We didn't need to do that, but we felt it was important that you have all the details, the entire picture, and you have it together and at the same time. Now, certainly, I do have the information. There is nothing that we are trying to keep secret, but it is 1498

Thursday, 1 April, 1983 appropriate that it be dealt with under that particular appropriation. I don't intend to answer questions about Natural Resources. I don't know those answers, although of course they would be available to me. I don't intend to answer questions from the Department of Health; the same rationale and logic exists here. We will discuss these programs, their costs and all the details that the members wish to question us on during Appropriation 29. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I find the Minister's response incredible.

Part of the reasons why we gather more informally in Committee of the Whole, particularly in the committee in Room 255 with staff available to her, staff at her elbows as it should be, to provide the kind of information that the Honourable Member for St. Norbert is asking for. The Minister can say and be as cute as she likes to be about what particular appropriation this question may or may not be raised under, but we are certainly talking about jobs.

We're talking about how that relates to her department, the Department of Labour; she certainly is not shying away from the major responsibility in providing those jobs. Certainly, it is the Department of Labour that is placing the ads. She just indicated a few moments ago that she has that information. What is so wrong about asking a fairly technical question as to the advertising costs of promoting a program?

I know that when I ask the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources what the Department of Natural Resources is spending for particular advertising programs that are geared to inform the hunters or other wildlife concerns throughout the province, I will get those answers. I simply can't understand the Minister digging in her heels on this particular issue. She may not wish to talk about the entire Careerstart Program if she wants to, but this is a very specific question that my colleague is asking.

I think it is on the line-by-line consideration because we are talking about the salaries of four people who are involved in the Careerstart Program. I can't think of a more appropriate place for the Member for St. Norbert to ask this question. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are considering Item 3.(a)(1) entitled Employment Development and Youth Services, Employment Development, Salaries. HON. M. DOLIN: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. The salaries are not under discussion. What is under discussion is an advertising cost. That ad was not placed by the Department of Labour and Employment Services; it was placed by the Jobs Fund. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr. Chairman, I was getting somewhat confused about which item we were on. I'm glad you just clarified that. We're talking about the Employment Development and Youth Services Branch. We're not talking about the core funding for the Jobs Fund; we're not talking about advertising for the Jobs Fund. The opportunity to discuss that will be later. I was wondering if the Minister could perhaps just reiterate exactly what we're discussing here.

For the last two days, the members of the opposition seem to have had some difficulty with that; either they have forgotten or they just don't care what we're discussing. My understanding is it's the Employment Development Branch and Youth Services which has some honouring role; some co-ordination role with the Jobs Fund but that is the extent to which it goes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said that the advertisement for the Careerstart Program was advertised by the Jobs Fund. I want to table, for the record of this committee, Mr.

Chairman, an advertisement from the newspaper in which at the bottom of the ad it is stated, "Department of Labour and Employment Services, the Honourable Mary Beth Dolin, Minister." MR. H. ENNS: Now, who's placing the ads? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON'" M. DOLIN: Mr. Chairman, programs are administered by departments. Information is given by departments. Programs within the Jobs Fund will be administered b}' many departments, Urban Affairs, Northern Affairs, Labour and Employment Services. Many departments are going to be involved.

Natural Resources is going to be involved as well in administering programs. If the program is administered under Natural Resources, I am certain people do not want to call Labour and Employment Services to get an answer. They need to go to the department that is administering the program. Monies to administer that program will be transferred from the Jobs Fund, to the department as it needs to expend those monies, to administer the program or to do whatever it is that's involved in the program. The Jobs Fund is the co-ordinating group, the co­ ordinating fund for these activities.

I would truly request that the members get back to the line-by-line discussion of my Estimates. If they wish to discuss the jobs of the people involved in this I will be happy to repeat again the entire job description, as I gave them the other night, and we will talk about what these people are doing. That is the only appropriation that's within my line-by-line Estimates. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Department of Labour and Manpower administer the Careerstart Program? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, it does. - (Interjection) - That's right. It's Employment Services. MR. D. ORCHARD: And that's the appropriation we're under. MR.

G. MERCIER: We're on Employment Development and Youth Services. HON. M. DOLIN: But you said the Department of Manpower. It's the Department of Employment Services. I'm helping you. 1499

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 MR. G. MERCIER: We're under this appropriation. We're discussing people who are monitoring the effectiveness of the whole job creation program so I disagree completely with the Minister. We should be able to discuss the job creation aspect of any project under the Jobs Fund. She has been unable to give us any answers at all whatsoever. She had said the other night she would at least discuss the Careerstart Program administered by her department and we're asking questions about this particular program and we're entitled to know, Mr.

Chairman, what the cost of advertising that program is, and we have a lot of other questions we want to ask about this program. This is a program, Mr. Chairman, supposedly one of a series of programs as part of a war on unemployment, and we have the spectacle of the Minister of Labour refusing to answer questions to how many jobs are created under these projects, refusing to answer questions as to some details of a program that her own department administers. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, surely one can appeal to fair play at a committee hearing.

The Minister has indicated that there is a separate line for Jobs Fund. That Jobs Fund involves program that will involve, not only the Department of Labour, it will involve many departments of government. True, there are staff within the Department of Labour who will be involved in assisting that program but there will be full reporting to this committee - to this committee - of all of the activities of the Jobs Fund and that report will be there.

There is nothing that the members will not be entitled - no information that is sought, that if it's available will not be withheld from the committee, including costs of advertising, numbers of people involved. All of that information will be made available when those Estimates are before us. Now surely we're not going to be here listening to questions put to this Minister about the costs and the numbers of people involved in every one of these programs that is being administered under the Jobs Fund. Because if we want to do that, as the Minister has pointed out, we're going to here a long long time.

There are many many numbers of individual programs involved. There is a separate line in the Estimates and when we get to that, that will be dealt with in full. Now surely the members can understand that, accept it and we can get on with the Department of Labour's Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I believe, and I think that it's becoming more and more evident as the Minister of Labour and her colleagues rush to attempt to make their points that there's a deliberate attempt to prevent us from discussing the legitimate aspects of the concerns and responsibilities of this department. With all due ... MR. CHAIRMAN: That's an imputation of motive. MR. G. FILMON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll ... MR. D. ORCHARD So this is a political forum? MR. G. FILMON: What is the motive that I've imputed, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: I just made an observation - go ahead. MR. G.

FILMON : Okay, well, thank you for you r observation, Mr. Chairman. Having been a Chairman of these committees, I realize that it's difficult to resist getting involved in the discussion and one is very severely handicapped from getting involved in such an interesting discussion, but thank you for the observation. I'll carry on. By preventing us from discussing these legitimate issues, Mr. Chairman, I believe that the Minister and her colleagues are simply going to prolong what appears to be a painful deliberation and discussion for them, because we have to get at the information one way or another.

As an opposition, we're very limited in our means of getting at the information. Our only forum is through this sort of review and analysis of the Estimates. If the Minister insists on trying to prevent us from getting at the information, we will have to simply be patient. It will take longer, it may be more difficult for all of us involved, perhaps more painful and perhaps a little more frustrating, but we will get at the information, Mr. Chairman. And I just simply, for your benefit, want to read what, in the Minister's Estimates, indicates to us that this must be the right place. We're dealing with Item 3.

Employment Services and it says, "Undertakes various activities which contribute to the development of the province's human resources, specifically: program development, co-ordination and monitoring of provincial employment and job creation activities; and employment development activities for youth and other specific target groups." I believe the Careerstart Program falls within the purview of that description, and I believe it's legitimate for us to ask for information on it here. I cannot understand why the Minister will not answer the question. If she answers it here, Mr.

Chairman, we will not have to ask it again under Appropriation 29. It will simply reduce the time spent on Appropriation 29 and I speak from experience, Mr. Chairman. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo has the floor. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The sooner that the Minister comes clean and puts forward the information, the sooner we will allow her to go and put her feet up on her desk and carry on with the other activities that she has in the administration of her department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr.

Chairman, the more I listen to this discussion, the more I'm amazed. I've been involved in various organizations before and I've seen the way in which those organizations function. One of the key points that is respected in any organization is the 1500

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 agenda, is the order in which items are discussed, and that is the principle that is really being questioned by the members of the opposition at the present point in time. They had been asking questions in regard to the Jobs Fund in general; they've been asking questions in regard to a specific program; they've been asking questions related to two specific items - both advertising and core funding. This item is neither.

It is not a core funding item; it is not an advertising item; it is a Salaries item of a number of employees who are given the responsibility of program development, as the Member for Tuxedo fully kno ws, of co-ordination and of monitoring. Now, if they want to talk about that specific function, I believe that would be in order, but to talk about advertising, to talk about core funding, as the members opposite are doing, is clearly out of order. I would really hope that they would not take that mistake on their part and then trying to impute motives on the part of the Minister.

All the Minister is trying to do is to follow the agenda and follow the Estimates as set out, and she has indicated she's quite willing and other members of the Cabinet are quite willing to ans wer these questions at the appropriate time in the Estimates. I can't see anything more reasonable than that. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a system for everything under the sun. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I want to pose to you, as Chairman of the committee, a question and I would hope that you will provide guidance to the committee as to how we would proceed. But let's make the assumption, Mr.

Chairman, that we passed (a), (b), (c), (d), (e) ... HON. M. DOLIN: Consider them passed. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, we passed them all and, Mr. Chairman, and when you called for the passing of the Resolution 106, which deals with the entire appropriation, could we ask and expect questions on any and all items contained from Items (

a) to (e)? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina was not here when I stated the basic principle that no one should be held accountable for anything for which he is not responsible. Accountability should be commensurate with authority. If the Minister of Labour has authority over any of the activities, it's the responsibility of the Minister of Labour to reply. The Member for Pembina. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. H. ENNS: Once again we're with the Chairman, he's right on. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Then I would assume to avoid the kind of traumatic experience that the Member for Thompson is having about us not being on exac.tly the right line to ask about advertising, that the scenario could develop that we pass (

a) through 1501 (

e) and you, Mr. Chairman, would allow us, before you pass Resolution 106, to ask any and all questions. If the advertising for the Careerstart Program was part of anything from (

a) to (e), we could ask the question on ii at that time and the Minister would give us the answer, if she had it, or she could refuse to tell us because she doesn't know what's going on. Am I correct, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Anything that can be asked under the item can be asked under the resolution, but nothing that can be asked under the item can be asked under the resolution. Speeches in the Committee of the Whole must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion. If we follow the Rules, we will facilitate our proceedings; if we don't, then there will be hindrances along the way.

The Member for lnkster. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not finished with my line of questioning. MR. CH AIRMAN: Pardon me. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, under Item (a)( 1)(a), which is the one we're on right now, I assume, and in that the Minister has indicated that she has four staff which are monitoring the Jobs Fund, could the Minister indicate whether any of those four staff monitor the advertising that she puts out under her departmental signature and her, as Minister responsible? HON. M.

DOLIN: Any of the advertising that I put out as Minister of Labour and Employment Services? No. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then, Mr. Chairman, would the Minister be so kind as to tell us who monitors the advertising that she puts out, such as the advertisement we just tabled 10 minutes ago in this Committee on Careerstart, where is that monitored by her staff? HON. M. DOLIN: I would draw the member's attention to a press release regarding the program that he is referring to. It says, "Jobs Fund Creates Careerstart Program." That's the headline; that's where the money comes from; that's where it will be discussed. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, Careerstart is funded by the Jobs Fund. Where is it administered? HON. M. DOLIN: It is administered in the Department of Employment Services. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well then since we're on Employment Services, are questions not appropriate to the Minister about the Careerstart Program? She's been chastising us that we can't ask her to explain jobs created in the Jobs Fund in the Natural Resource Department, we have to ask the appropriate Minister. If she is the appropriate Minister, will we be allowed and permitted to ask the Minister questions on the Careerstart Program? MR.

CHAIRMAN: What sayest thou, Madam Minister?

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 HON. M. DOLIN: The appropriation for Careerstart does not appear as a line in my Budget. It is therefore not a part of the Labour and Employment Services Estimates. I realize that a Jobs Fund and the co­ ordination of such is a departure from the tradition of the past, and particularly for the tradition of the past government, but it is a new way of doing things. We believe it's a better way of doing things. I would hope that the members would remember all of their questions and ask them in the appropriate place. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Where is the appropriate place to ask questions about the Careerstart Program? HON. M. DOLIN: Appropriation 29, Jobs Fund. MR. D. ORCHARD: But yet, did not the Minister just tell us a few minutes ago that Employment Services of her department adm inisters the Careerstart Program? HON. M. DOLIN: I am also responsible for the Civil Service Commission and I don't hear anyone asking questions about the line-by-line Estimates in that. You apparently understand that those questions should come under that appropriation.

I fail to understand why you can't accept that the appropriations for Jobs Fund are different than this Appropriation 11. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minister either didn't tell us the proper procedure last Tuesday night, or she isn't telling us the proper procedure now, because she told us that if we want details on various announcements of projects undertaken by funding from the Jobs Fund, that we must ask the Minister whose department the funding is part of.

She just told us five minutes ago that Careerstart is administered from her department and now she's telling us we can't ask her questions about Careerstart, that we have to wait for the Jobs Fund? And I want to correct the Minister, it isn't Appropriation 29, it's Resolution No. 145. HON. M. DOLIN: I think it is important for members to understand that we think they will receive the most information and in the most logical sequence by having the questions asked and answered in the presence of all Ministers who administer programs within the Jobs Fund.

It is our intent to have all Ministers present for that Estimates' questioning and they will be able to provide you with complete information on all of these programs. I happen to wear two hats here, one is that the department administers programs under the Jobs Fund, and the other is that my department is responsible for the personnel who administer and monitor this entire Jobs Fund. If you wish, as I said before, to ask questions about the specific salaries and so on of that personnel, I will be happy to answer it.

It is much more important to be able to give you a complete picture and, unlike the members are saying, it is not to keep information from you, it's to share with you the complete picture of the Jobs Fund at that time with all people responsible present so that nothing is left out. The Premier , as the Chairperson of the Committee, will also be present at that discussion. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has just made an absolutely absurd statement. She has just told us that the Careerstart Program that she took great pains to announce as an initiative under her department, under Employment Services .

HON. M. DOLIN: No. MR. D. ORCHARD: . . . in the House, she announced it in the House. I believe she even held a press conference on the Careerstart Program as a program from her department. HON. M. DOLIN: No. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now she's saying that we have to ask one of nine other Ministers for details of a program she announced, that she's told us is part of Employment Services. Just simply put, Mr. Chairman, what Minister has any information on Careerstart? Who do we ask for information on Careerstart? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister said in the House following the comments of my colleague from Pembina in her statement, "I will be announcing further administrative details in Careerstart at a press conference later this afternoon." Those are her exact words and she said she administers to this department. I want to ask her if she's not prepared to indicate to us the cost of advertising the program, how many jobs will Careerstart create? HON. M. DOLIN: I will answer that question under Appropriation 29. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, we are discussing - (Interjection) - you don't have any point of order. Mr.

Chairman, we're talking to the Minister of Labour, we're talking about unemployment for youth. There are estimates that unemployment among youth is going to be 25 percent this summer, the Minister of Labour imposes a deadline of April 15th for applications under this program, and she refuses to tell us the number of jobs the program is going to create. This is absolutely ludicrous, Mr. Chairman. I don't know whether we should simply leave this whole committee or do what? This is absolutely astonishing. It's unbelievable. The Minister of Labour is refusing to answer that kind of question. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Related to this specific line item, I was wondering if the Minister could indicate - she mentioned that the group in question here will be making recommendations in terms of future programs - whether they'll be looking at job­ creation programs in other jurisdictions as well, or whether they're going to be specifically looking at the Careerstart or other programs under the Jobs Fund? Whether they're going to have a specific Manitoba focus in terms of research and further recommendations, or a wider focus? 1502

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 MR. G. FILMON: That's under Appropriation 29, then. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: Within this department there is a planning and development capability that relates to the Jobs Fund but certainly there are other programs that my department delivers. and the lines for those programs are within this set of Estimates. I would be happy to discuss them, such as the STEP Program and NEED and so on. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said she's administering this department.

She publishes advertisements in the newspaper under the Department of Labour and Employment Services and her name. She issues material, Careerstart, Department of Labour and Employment Services. Employment Development and Youth Services Branch. I guess I'll have to table that, Mr. Chairman, for the evidence of the committee. She has said in her own material just above her name that this is the Employment Development and Youth Services Branch which is exactly what we're talking about. So I'm asking her how many jobs does she expect this program to provide for young people? HON. M.

DOLIN: That is not within this line budget. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister seems to be labouring under some illusion that this is a new initiative on the part of this government to bring together the resources of many departments of government to try to achieve something. I acknowledge that she has not been in government or been involved in Manitoba affairs all that long. I want to assure her that this is not a new initiative, that there have been many instances.

I named a few of them: the ARDA Program, the FRED Program in the Interlake where the Departments of Education, Highways, Agriculture were involved, but there was always a Minister prepared to answer responsibly for the administration of those programs. I know, because I was that Minister from time to time delving with a $86 million rural redevelopment program of the Interlake. That was known the FRED Program under the broad umbrella of the ARDA Program which involved the Federal Government, federal agencies and half a dozen provincial agencies.

She is the Minister of Labour; she is the Minister that our young people have a right to look forward to for some of these answers. She is not shy at all, Mr. Chairman, about publishing material, placing ads in various newspapers under her name indicating to the people of Manitoba, and particularly to the youth of Manitoba, that she is responsible for these initiatives. Now sure ly, Mr. Chairman, she should be in a position to answer for the programs, their costs, their effectiveness and what the hopes and projections of these programs are going to be.

There is nothing new about tt)e approach in this regard that the Minister said a little while ago. It happens quite often.

When my colleague that was just answering a little while ago was responsible for developing the Inner Core Initiative Program, which involved various other departments: the Department of Government Services, the Department of Highways, the Department of Education, the Department of Housing, something like that, but the Minister, then responsible for Urban Affairs, was prepared to answer questions on the Inner Core Initiatives Program because it was under his responsibility that program was being administered. In the same way, Mr.

Chairman, this whole job creation program, Careerstart Program is being administered by her officials. I would like to think it's going to be administered by her officials. I have every reason that they're competent, every reason that they have the information at their fingertips. I just cannot understand the Minister stonewalling this committee on such an important issue when there are 55,000 unemployed walking around in Manitoba, when this has been such a major thrust not only in the Budget but in the Throne Speech of this government. Now through you, Mr.

Chairman, I say to the government and to this Minister, if they want to call a 10-minute recess and get their act togeth er, but somebody surely has to start answering for the jobless people, particularly jobless youth in our province, particularly when we have deadlines to face, such as April 15th. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. May I ask, because I have been unable in the past number of days to determine how you keep a list of who is to speak, is it by nod? There used to be an acceptance in the past ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Let the Chair explain.

The first one that catches my eye gets it. I don't make a list because people will be expecting to be called. Usually I will alternate, if necessary, but if there's a line of questioning the member keeps the floor for awhile. MR. G. FILMON: With respect, Mr. Chairman, when the Member for Lakeside had his hand up, I did, as well, and the Member for Thompson hadn't, so I assumed that I would follow. - (Interjection) - No, not way back when the Member for Lakeside . . . I think it's a little difficult, if you aren't keeping a list, tor us to know whether we'll ever get a chance to speak.

But I leave it up to you; I think that there should be some order of speakers. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: I think rather than end up spending much more time on this line of discussion, I would like to make a suggestion. If I misunderstand the role of this committee and some aspects of it, I'm sure members will correct me; that is, that under the item for the Minister's Salary it's my understanding there's a broad range for discussion, that members at that time could bring up their general concerns about the jobs - (Interjection) - Mr.

Chairman, it would be appreciated if members of the opposition would let me finish. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson has the floor. 1503

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . There's been questions related to the Jobs Fund in general. There's been a question of the Minister's indication about answering questions under a different item. There's been all sorts of things thrown around, most of which were of a very general nature. The only items which have not been of a general nature, Mr. Chairman, are items which can be asked under another line of the Estimates, so I would like to suggest that if members do have any of these comments to make, they bring them up in the Minister's Salary.

I've sat through a good number of cases last year where there were very general comments, very specific comments as well. There's a free range of discussion under that item, and surely that's the place for it rather than under a very specific item which does not relate to the concerns of the opposition. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, what is going on here is absolutely unacceptable to us as elected representatives and to unemployed youth and to people in Manitoba. This has to be corrected.

The only way we're going to be able to do it is to be able to ask the First Minister questions tomorrow in question period, so that this Minister will be called upon and compelled to answer questions. So in order we can do that tomorrow, Mr. Chairman, I move committee rise. It's not debatable. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a motion on the floor. QUESTION put, MOTION defeated. MR. G. MERCIER: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Chairman. A COUNTED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 9; Nays 9. MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is defeated . We have to move to the Chamber.

The item under consideration is Item No. 3.(a)(1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you indicated, the item under discussion is Item 3.(a)(1) - 3.(

a) Employment Development and Youth Services, Mr. Chairman. Members of the Legislature have received from the Minister of Labour and Employment Services copies of documentation, applications for businesses and farms, information and regulations on both of which appear the name of the Minister, the Honourable Mary Beth Dolin, Minis ter, Department of Labour and Employment Services, Employment Development and Youth Services Branch. On the back of the application form for businesses and farms is an address, Careerstart, Employment Development and Youth Services Branch, Department of Labour and Employment Services.

Application deadline is April 15th, 1983, l add, Mr. Chairman. So the Minister has indicated and confirmed by the application forms and the information she's distributed to members of this Legislature, that she administers this department, this program Careerstart through this item, Employment Development and Youth Services, that anyone who is interested in making an application under this program must send their application in to this branch. The Minister publishes in the newspaper large ads indicating the Careerstart.

"For Careerstart, if you're interested contact the Department of Labour and Employment Services, the Honourable Mary Beth Dolin, Minister." She neglected however to point out in the ads that there was an application date of April 15th before which any applications had to be filed. We have indicated in this committee and in question period the very great concern that we have over this application deadline because of the short period of time that has been given to both employers, and particularly employers, businesses, and farms, to apply for the benefits under this program.

The Minister sent this material to us in a letter dated March 28th of this year so I assume that it was a similar day on which the material was mailed out to businesses and employers who had previously taken advantage of our Youth Employment Programs and the Youth Employment Program that the government had last year. We're concerned very much about the deadline for submitting applications, Mr. Chairman.

We're very much concerned about the cost of advertising and the lack of information that the advertising contains, the essential information that it should contain, particularly about the deadline for the application forms. We're very concerned, Mr. Chairman, as we indicated in our questions about the number of jobs that will be created through this program which the Minister refused to answer. We have in Manitoba at the present time a very large number of unemployed young people in the province, estimated to rise to a percentage of some 25 percent.

The government supposedly agrees with us that this is a crisis and yet, Mr. Chairman, the Minister has refused to answer questions that we have placed with respect to such a simple matter as the number of jobs to be created through this program. Members opposite are indicating it's not true. They can examine Hansard when it comes out. On at least two occasions I have asked the Minister, prior to the committee going into the House, to vote exactly how many jobs would be created under this program and the Minister refused to answer.

This is a program that is designed and administered by this Minister, and she has been refusing to answer basic simp1e questions. The Minister of Labour refusing to deal with the matter of unemployment, a question of unemployment. HON. M. DOLIN: Point of order. I have never refused to answer the questions. Mr. Chairman, it is 4:30. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, the Chair is interrupting the proceedings of the committee for Private Members' Hour. SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Health, Item 3(a)(1) 1504

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 Community Health Operations. Administration: Salaries - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman. I know that in introducing his department's 1983-84 Estimates in the House on Tuesday evening of this week the Minister made an opening statement outlining his overall program in terms of program delivery and spending and noted that the Budget for the Department of Health now exceeds $1 billion annually in the Province of Manitoba and that, indeed, represents a considerable watershed in the history - (Interjection) - of health services here, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order please. There seems to be quite a bit of background discussion from members who are milling around. Could they settle down on the committee they are deciding to attend and may be I'll allow the Member for Fort Garry to give his speech in the proper atmosphere of decorum? The Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

At the time the Minister stressed that the Budget, which exceeds $1 billion this year for the first time in the province's history, represents an increase of 11 .6 percent over last year and he then delivered a fairly comprehensive opening statement to the committee outlining the contents and details of his program.

It's not my intention, Sir, to attempt to respond to that statement at the present time in my capacity as chief Health critic for the Progressive Conservative Party and for the opposition in the House, but there are a number of highlights and major salient features in the health care landscape which I do want to address with the Minister and to which I do want to make reference either in a single statement offering the perspective of the opposition on health care at the present time, or in separate and individual references that would arise as we go through the total Estimates of the department.

When we come to the conclusion of the ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. The Minister of Health on a point of order. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure - I don't know on what point I'm standing up, but I've got the floor now anyway - I just want to say that I'm sure that the committee would be receptive to receiving the remarks from the honourable member. If he's ready, he could make them now. I think it would be helpful if we had them all at once. I think we understood that he couldn't be here the last few days and I certainly, for one, would go along with it. MR. B.

RANSOM: If it's okay with you Larry, it's okay with me. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: I appreciate the Minister's consideration but it's not my intention to make that kind of a statement at the present time. I want to lay out the concerns of the opposition in the health care field and to make such a statement, but I'm not going to make it at this point in time.

I wanted to acknowledge the opening statement that the Minister has made and tell him that I am studying it and I would like to make a reasonably comprehensive statement outlining the position that our party takes and that I take vis-a-vis health care programming and what the immediate future looks like in the health care field. I will do that, but I don't want to do it at this juncture and I would ask the Minister's indulgence on that point. I will attempt to do it within the next day, but I would like the opportunity to study the Minister's opening statement first.

So with the approval of all concerned and the Chair, Sir, think we can move into consideration of Resolution No. 90, and Appropriation 3.(

a) Community Health Operations, Administration. In the previou<i year's Estima tes representing the first year of the new government's administration, we looked at the fact that community operations had been split out by the preceding government into two departments. That step, of course, was taken with the division of the old Department of Health and Community Services into two separate and distinct individual departments, the Department of Health and the Department of Community Services.

One of the major points of study and attention that required a great deal of effort and input from the best expertise that both departments could assemble had to do, Sir, with the realigning and restructuring of the field service and the regional program delivery aspect of Health and Community Services.

The division was undertaken on the basis that those regional field programs relative specifically to Health would go into the Department of Health; those that were related specifically to the field of Community Services would go into the Department of Community Services, but because of the very close interrelationship between Health and Community Services in many many program areas and because of the position of the regional director in the structure, administration and delivery of Health and Comm unity Services Prog rams throughout the province, it became a very sensitive challenge to break that area of operation down into the two departments in an equitable, efficient and responsible way.

That had to be done, of course, in order to separate the two departments and in order to avoid duplication of bureaucracy and unnecessary overlap of areas of responsibility, and it was done. What we have now is the regional field service delivery component for Health, and the regional field service delivery component for Community Services. The question that occurs at this juncture, Mr. Chairman, is an obvious one, it has to do with staffing and staff complements that result from that division. So I would like to begin our examination of the departmental Estimates with a question on that point at this juncture.

The Minister may have covered the point in the information that he supplied my colleague, the Honourable Member for Rhineland, and the statement that he sent over to me earlier this afternoon in the House having to do with the staff year

summary for the Department of Health for 1983-84 as against '82- 83, but I would like to have a chance to explore this matter with him verbally notwithstanding his supply of that information in printed form. 1505

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 My first question to him, Mr. Chairman, not having had the opportunity yet to study his staff-totals lists in detail, is a question as to whether there has been any increase necessary in the Community Health Operations staffing complement in Health, as a result of the division of the component itself when the former Department of Health and Community Services was divided?

Going into 1983-84, are we looking at a situation in which the separation of the departments and the consequent division of the Regional Field Services delivery component was undertaken, at any increase in staff in Community Health Operations in health care? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there has been a division, of course, under the former administration. It is a very delicate and tough situation; I think that everybody will admit that. It's so closely related - the responsibility of the now Minister of Health and the Minister of Social Development.

Over the years that I've been here I think it was put back together and then it was divided and put back together. It has some advantages and some disadvantages, no matter how you look at it, what you do. I might say that we are looking at the situation again to see if there's any improvement that we could make in the division of responsibility, but in the meantime we're going on exactly the same way.

We have an ADM who is responsible for the staffing in the region in the field of Health, and then the Department of Social Development also have a person responsible, but all of them report to the team leader who reports to Mr. Werbeniuk who then reports to both on both sides. So it is a bit complicated but it's working quite well. I have had occasion to visit some of our people in the rural area and in the North with some staff, and they've all assured me that it was working well. In fact, they want to make sure that no matter how we united the department we should continue with the set-up that we had.

So that is working quite well. Now, in the staff, and I'm now talking about the staff under Resolution 21(3)(b)1, there is a reduction of 12- 1/4, a reduction of 7 permanent and 5-1/4 term. I might say that although there has been a reduction of, if we talk about the whole department, the whole branch I should say, of all Community Health Operations, there is a total reduction of 23-1/4 staff years in that division. These reductions were accomplished without reduction in the direct service delivery or institutional services by selectively identifying position for a reduction from non-direct service areas.

We were able to assure continuing levels of services and institutional care. On this form that I just sent to my honourable friend, I think the explanation is there. There is under Community Health Operations, 21(3)(

b) Regional Services, 7 permanent positions we use and 5-1/4, and they're spelled out there. As you see, it doesn't interfere with the actual delivery of service. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask the Minister about the position of the Regional Director. At the time the division took place, and the breakd own of that component and separation of it into the two departments occurred, there was necessarily a great deal of concern and consideration given to the position of Regional Director.

As noted perhaps in my earlier comments and certainly as discussed by the Minister and me in the past, it was deemed essential that division take place without expanding unnecessarily the size of the component, without duplicating regional directorships in terms of responsibility and in terms of SMYs in the overall staff complement. But it also became a question that involved consideration of morale and personal feelings, the personal positions of the Regional Directors and their concerns for what was happening in the reorganization process generally.

There was the anxiety on the part of some people that in order to operate the Regional Field Services in Health, and the Regional Field Services in Community Services separately, there would have to be two sets of Regional Directors. Great efforts were made to restructure and reorganize the departments and this delivery component without getting into that kind of duplication. I would like to ask the Minister for a progress report on that question.

Do we operate the regions in terms of Field Services, Health and Community Services with eight Regional Directors, with persons who function as Regional Directors for both Health and Community Services or are there personnel now operating separately as Regional Directors for Health, and Regional Directors for Community Services? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the Regional Directors are not duplicated, they are responsible for workers in both departments and certainly, not at this time anyway - there's no intention of changing. I think it's working quite well.

I think that the previous government and the one before that also have talked about single-unit delivery and I think that we want to pursue that. It seems to be working very well. MR. L. SHERMAN: The Minister says that it seems to be working very well and that's gratifying. I would hope that extends to the staff in total and that his comment doesn't apply simply to the Regional Directors. In other words, my question now to him has to do with the general regional field staff. Are there problems in terms of responsibility areas in the regional field staff itself, as between health and social services?

Are there any problems, as between obtaining the kind of support, in terms of personnel and material, that are necessary? Are people who are working in the regional field service delivery system able to obtain the cars they need; able to obtain the office help they need; able to obtain the secretarial backup that they need, without duplicating staff? Or has it been necessary to supply the regional field health workers and the regional field community service workers with separate sets of personnel and support personnel and equipment and supplies? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, no there's no duplication.

We work very well as a team, although there are two departments involved, and there is no problem because of that. There are concerns, however, and we're reviewing this but in no big rush, mind you, but we're looking 1506

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 at, as I said earlier, the possibility of maybe getting some transfer. For instance, there is a debate going on. Many people during my visit - and it has been brought to my attention and the attention of others, for instance, that probably the best example is mentally retarded. Some people feel that the mentally retarded, mentally ill should not be separated, it should be under the same Minister, although we recognize that it's two different groups. That is one thing.

There is this eternal debate also that some of them feel Child and Family Services might be better suited to be under the Minister of Heal th , and so on. Now there's no decision arrived al, at this time, but we are looking at the pos si bili ty of rearranging it and transferring and exchan gin g between the two departments, as I've said, to see if we could improve the situation. I think that's something that we should continue to do constantly; there might be some changes.

As I said earlier, there are advantages and disadvantages in having two departments, and certainly advantages and disadvantages with only one department, because it would be so large and both my honourable friend and myself know that. The situation is though, that no matter what it is, if it's the same department or two different departments, it's the same government, it's the same province. We can't duplicate everything, it would be wrong, and we have no intention to duplicate. That part of it is working well. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, what is the reporting line off the ad minis tration of Community Health Operations? Does the Director of Community Health Operations report directly to the Deputy Minister, or is there is a senior staff person through whom the regional operations in both departments report? In other words, do Health operations and Community Services operations report through a senior staff person who serves both departments, or do they report separately? Where is the liaison link that ties Health and Community Services together in the field? HON. L. DESJARDINS: This is the way it works. In the team, Mr.

Chairman, there are workers in Public Health Nursing, Continuing Care, Community Mental Health, Home Ee, Health Education, Audiology. Those people are all on the Health side. - (Interjection) - Community Services and Corrections - I'm still calling it Social Development, so if I make a mistake you'll know what I mean. There's Child and Family Services, Rehabilitation, and Mentally Retarded. They work as a team. They all report to the same Regional Director in their region, and the Regional Director then reports directly to our Executive Director of Reg ional Operations, this is with Mr.

Werbeniuk, and then, of course, he works with both - our ADM and Mr. Mclean in our department and the equivalent ADM in the other department. MR. L. SHERMAN: Okay, thank you. MR. CH AIRMAN: 3.( a)(1)- pass ; 3.(a)(2)-pass; 3.(a)(3)-pass; 3.(b)

(1) Regional Services, Salaries - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: In relative terms, Mr. Chairman, there's a substantial increase in the salary appropriation being sought here in 1983-84 over 1982-83, and I wonder if the Minister can explain that. We're looking at a request from the Minister for this committee to approve an expenditure in the salary area of $15.5 million in the new fiscal year, as against $12.8 million in 1982-83.

I suppose measured against today's inflation rates, cost price spirals, and all the enormities of economic draconianism that we're all used to, that may not look particularly signficant, but it still represents a fair increase, both in dollar terms and in percentage terms. It's some $2.7 million or $2.8 million of an increase on a base of $12.8 million. Could the Minister advise the committee of the details and the reasons for that? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, Appropriation 21(3) shows a 22.3 percent increase; ifs true in salaries for the region and 21.9, and the Mental Heaith Centre 21.5, primilary due to the filling of vacant positions with higher salaried incumbents, reclassifications, increases in allowances for overtime, and reduction in turnover allowances. There's not so many people moving now. I think they're going to hold on to their jobs a little more than usual. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1) - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just didn't quite catch the reference to the appropriation that the Minister cited.

Did he say Appropriation 3.( b)(1)? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Regional Services, 3.(b)(1), right. MR. L. SHERMAN: 3.(b)

(1) Regional Services Salaries? 3.(b)(1). HON. L. DESJARDINS: I think I covered them both in 3.(b)(1). The Regional Services is 21.9 and the Mental Health Centre, that's the next, (

c) and (d) - I was ahead of myself - 21.5. The whole division is 22.3 overall and it's the same reasons that we gi ve for this high percentage increase. MR. L. SHERMAN: But it's not due, Mr. Chairman, to staHing increases, to additions in the SMY complement, is that correct? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No. In effect, there is a decrease as we mentioned earlier and we will when we look at Brandon and Selkirk. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said in

part it's due to the fact that vacancies have been filled. Is there a difference in the vacancy rate in the Regional Service component now than has been the case in recent years? Would there have been sort of a standard kind of a vacancy rate of whatever, 5 to 7 percent for example, over a period of some years that would now be sharply reduced to a lower percentage? Is that what the Minister is saying? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's less vacancies of course. There has been some reduction and we might say, of course, that we 1507

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 would have to allow the money if we have the position for the payment. But then if these positions aren't filled, then you could use some of the funds for the reclassification and increase in allowance for overtime and so on. So now that is not possible, so it is a combination of all these things that would cause us to ask for such an increase but it is not an increase in staff. It's quite the opposite as we mentioned. There is actually an actual reduction in staff years. llll R. L. SHERMAN: Is any part of that related to dental services, Mr. Chairman, or is that entirely separate? HON.

L DESJARDINS: That would be in the next item we will see the dental, under Community Health Programs. MR. L SHERMAN: Well, I recognize that's where the Childrens' Dental Health Program comes, Mr. Chairman, but if you read the Minister's annual report dealing with the Community Health Operations Division - (Interjection) - and then with Regional Operations, there is a reference to Dental Services under the regional operating section. The report says "Dental services maintain central program development combined with responsibility for the actual delivery of dental service throughout the province.

These services include a comprehensive preventive program in childrens' dental services in rural Manitoba," etc. I just wanted to satisfy myself that the reference in the annual report has to do with Dental Services as we know them in the separate

section coming under Community Health Programs, and that this area 3.(b), Regional Field Services deals with the delivery of and central program development of a great many services, but Dental Services is not one of them. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I think that I can probably explain that. The report the honourable member has been referring to is the report of '81-82. There has been a reorganization and that now would be in the next division but that would be the dental program. Yes, it's '82-83. MR. L. SHERMAN: This is the most current report I've got. Okay, okay. Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I apologize for not being able to be here any sooner and some of these questions may have been asked. I was wondering, in the last year's Estimates the Canada-Northland Agreement appeared under this item. I see that the Canada-Northland Agreement does not appear in it this year. Can the Minister tell me where the Canada-N orthland Agreement stayed? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the Canada­ Manitoba Northland Agreement which was replaced by the Canada-Manitoba Northland Development Agreement.

The new agreement places particular emphasis on economic goals and objectives. Now I'm told that under the old agreement the department received some funding to support the activities of five permanent positions involved in home ec. services in the North and three term positions in remote nursing stations. It is my understanding that the three term positions would be eligible for recovery of cost under the terms of this new agreement.

Regardless of the cost-sharing status of the five permanent positions that were covered in the old agreement, I can assure the members of this House that those positions as well as the term positions will be maintained. I think there's still discussions going on, but these positions will be maintained. They would then become the department's program budgetary responsibility in the North. MR. A. BROWN: I understand that under this item there is a decrease of seven SMYs and five term employees.

If we take this into consideration, and there is a rather large salary increase, as a matter of fact the salary increase would amount to about 22 percent according to my calculations - (Interjection) - Oh, I see, okay, so that has been answered. A few years ago this particular section, the Department of Health and the Community Services and Corrections were divided into two departments. The Minister now has had time to evaluate that split in the departments.

I wonder if we can tell me if there is a particular - (Interjection) - Okay, my question then would be, is there a particular problem in this area with the split in the two departments? I understand that one regional director is in charge of both the operations. Is there a problem created as a result of this? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No problem whatsoever. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I understand that the standards are also built in, in this particular

section as far as the Community Mental Health Delivery Services is concerned. I wonder, can the Minister tell me who establishes these standards, and is the Minister satisfied that we are giving excellent care as far as health service delivery is concerned under this particular section? HON. l. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Chairman, we're not satisfied, not more than the previous administration was, or the one before that. This is a thing that the three last Ministers, including this one, has expressed concern over the years. This is why we hirea a provincial psychiatrist.

I think the search was on in the previous administration and this is why we have a study that's going on now in the field of mental health with the help of Dr. Prosen and other groups as I announced and we're waiting for this report. We should have at least the first part of this report very soon, probably in a couple of months. The standards are being reviewed and the service that we are giving, we also hope will be improved. MR. A. BROWN: Are these community mental health workers also responsible for the community and group homes? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: There is an office of Residential Care - remember that was set up before there was the 1508

Thursday, 7 April, 1983 division of the department - they set up the standards and licensed these facilities and so on. It comes under that but it's under the Community Services or whatever. MR. A. BROWN: The Minister gave me a copy of the SMYs the other day. I wonder, can he tell me how up­ to-date that list is? I understand that there could be discrepancies in that list for as high as about 50 positions. I believe that we have about 1,670 SMYs over here and I understand that there could be quite a discrepancy. HON. l. DESJARDINS: This is the latest information. I think it's up-to-date probably as of noon today.

The only thing that my honourable friend is talking about is vacancies, that's a possibility, but that is certainly up-to-date. These positions might not all be filled. They never are in a large department like we have. No matter how much we cut them there is always a bit of a turnover, but there is way less than there ever has been because of the cut and because of the difficulty to get employment these days, I would imagine. But that is certainly up-to-date. MR. A. BROWN: Is there any way the Minister would be able to check this?

I would think that the people involved with the superannuation, that they also have figures and I understand that there is quite a discrepancy between the figures that they present and the figures that you present. It seems to me that there is a bit of a problem here. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, if my honourable friend has more information, he's not clear enough. As far as I'm concerned this is exactly the figures that we have.

It's the same as the Civil Service Commission and I can't check anything else unless I'm detecting some information that somebody gave him and if that is the case, if I can get this information either privately or now, then I'll endeavour to check. But on what I have now there is no way that I can check it. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I'll try to get that information for the Minister then because I was talking to somebody the other day and he suggested that there could be quite a discrepancy in positions as to what the Civil Service Commission has and the number that is f