VOL.2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. MONDAY, JUNE 13, 1977 NO. 119

~"!une 13, 1977 Tape 4158 (Morning) PK - 2 !1r. Hickman: opinion, all the best in the ethics of a very noble profession. I can think of no more ethical newsman in this Province than Elmer Harris. And it is nice for all of us to see that our views of El~er Parris have been confirmed and ratified by his peers throughout-Canada~which is the sort of honour that ceserving people receive and cherish. He also extend to Bob Ross our congratulations, again to a ne'tvsman who has earned,deservedly so ,the affection of han. gentlemen in this Reuse.

And VOCM~which is a station that gives excellent coverage of the proceedings of this House-fair, unbiased, and non-partisan - the award that they have Han this year adds to their achievements and awards they have so deservedly won over the years, and ~..re col!n!lend them for it, and wish them all kinds of luck in the future. NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Naskaupi. HR. J. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to move a motion asking for the unanimous support of this han.

House that the Premier or his designated representative, the Minister of Transportation and Communications,make immediate representation to the Federal Government, specifically the Hon. Otto Lang, the Minister of Transportat~on,that a state of emergency exists in this Province because of non payment by CN for _goods lost following the sinking of the motor vessel William Carson on Friday, June 3, 1977. . I ask leave, Mr. Speaker, for - MR. HICKMAN: You give notice. HR. GOUDIE: I was asking that this-or about to ask if this motion not be debated, and I am requesting permission to offer a few explanatory comments.

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: From our point of view, Sir, this is an irregular proceeding, but obviously an important one. I was just talking with my colleagues, and we are quite prepared to allo~·7 notice to be waived. 1.1701.

June 13, 1977 Tape - 4158 ( Morning) PK - 3 Mr. 'Roberts: N ormally it would require twenty-four hours notice, and since the hon. gentleman is not a member of the government it must Stand as a Private Members' motion, although the government can call it. But, Sir, ~ve are not prepared to allow it to go through without debate, particularly if the hon. gentleman - I do not know if he knows what he is asking, ~-1hat he is asking,in effect,when he says he wants to make a few explanatory notes; he would like to debate it and nobody else to.

We are quite .. prepared to have it go ahead this morning even though we have not been consulted on it, even though we have not been given any advanced notice at all we are quite prepared to, but, Sir, my friend from Lewisporte (Mr. White) is every bit as concerned as the gentleman from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) 9 and others of us would like to say a word or two, the gentle•an from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan).

So if the government wish to debate the matter today we are quite prepared to do it, and give our consent to waiving the requirement of notice, but certainly not to allow it to go through without debate now or any other time, Sir. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member may give notice of it. He has no notice on the Oraer Paper. He may give notice of the motion, any han. member may do that. The other matter is indeec to have it called today because notice wbuld only have been given today or leave to have it voted without debate, those are distinct matters. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I certainly would welcome debate.

The only reason I made that suggestion 9 if I could just offer · to explain, was that I consider this to be a fairly urgent matter, and would like to have . seen it AN RON. MEMBER: We will debate it then. MR. ROBERTS: We have been asking questions ten days now. MR. GOUDIE: That is fine with me. AN RON. MEMBER: That is through the han. gentleman and the House Leader. MR. GOUDIE: Well,can I just finish reading the rest of the motion, Mr. Speal':er? 1.1702

June 13, 1977 Tape - 4158 PK - 4 ~· IR. SPEAKER: I understand, if my understanding is correct, to give notice of a motion the hon. gentleman needs no leave. The matter ~vhether it is going to be debated today, then,for that the hon. gentleman does need leave. That is about it. MR. PECKFORD: Pretend that you are giving notice. AN RON. :1-'!EHBER: Just go ahead and read the notice. MR. GOUDIE: In moving this motion I would explain that a number of businesses and individuals in Labrador may be in a position - MR. R(IBERTS : Hold on now! Mr.

Speaker, I do not have the least objection of the han. gentleman speaking in explanation or in support of the motion. But, Sir, that is debate. And if he is going to give a notice of motion then,as Your Honour has just said, he does not need anything except to go ahead, ' This is the right place to give notice. Let him give notice. Now if the govenu1ent wish to call it for debate, Sir, v7e would like nothing better than to debate the matter this day, and ~·1e agree it is quite urgent and we will ~·Taive the requiremert of notice insofar as it is within our power.

But the hon. gentleman to explain it, Sir, that is debate. He cannot do that unless we are allowed the same response. HR. SPEAKER: The point before the Chair is quite an evident one, and the han. gentlemen to my left would have to indicate whether they concur or not. The han. gentleman has given notice of the motion., and in the ordinary course of events it will be on the Order Paper tomorrow. He has given notice of the motion. Now after that, what he says in addition to that, is speaking to the mot ion.

And what han. gentlemen to my right are saying is that they will give leave for the han. member for N askaup i (Mr · Goudie) :11703

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4159 Page 1 - ms Mr. Speaker. to speak to the motion if they as well may participate in debate. In other words,they give leave that the requirement of notice will be waived if it is to be debated today, and that means that other people may speak to it as well. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I read the motion just a couple of moments ago. There is one other little part to the motion. If there is unanimous support~ I think that is in order - MR. HICKMAN: You do not need a motion, juat give the notice. MR. GOUDIE: Okay, I give notice. MR.. HICKMAN: You have to read the last part.

You say, I give notice that I will move that the representative - MR. GOUDIE: I give notice, Mr. Speaker, that I will move that the representative of the provincial government proceed to Ottawa and,accompanied with at least two businessmen from the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area,to meet with Mr. Lang and, Mr. Speaker,let the investigation continue, because I believe that this should be done to work toward an Unmediate settlement to this whole problem of concern. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. :t-m.. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The War Service Pensions Act, 1975." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. ROBERTS: You have an answer? MR. DOODY: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Good! Well, let us hear it. MR. DOODY: There is an answer to a question that the han. member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Canning has been very concerned about for quite a long period of time relating to the number of people in the public service. I was holding it until he got back, but unfortunately 11704

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4159 Page 2 - ms ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy. I think I could have raised it as a matter of privilege, but this surely is a better way because it gives him an opportunity to reply in the form of an answer. Friday's Daily News , Sir, had a story with reference to ~he government's proposed Hydro Bill. It stands as Order 26 on today's Order Paper. The minister on Friday morning rose on a point of personal privilege and in effect denied the Daily News story.

This morning's Daily News comes back with another story in effect saying that what the original Friday morning's story said was correct. I am sure the minister has seen this morning's Daily News. MR.. PECKFORD : No, I have not seen it. MR. ROBERTS: Well then,he is either late getting to work or he has been extraordinarily busy since he got in the office. But the point is, Mr.

Speaker, that this morning's Daily News reaffirms,and so my question to the minister is this: Can the minister tell us whether Bill No. 98 will be brought before the House in this session, and whether that bill will require - I think this is the nub of the argument between the Daily News and the minister -whether that bill will require that Hydro's rates be set by the Public Utilities Commission or whether the Public Utilities Commission's role will be merely an advisory one? I think that is the nub of the argument as I understand it. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR.. PECKFORD : Mr.

Speaker, what I denied on Friday was the fact that the Daily News

article was implying that the bill relating to the whole question of the Public Utilities Board and Hydro's relation to it as a result of such a bill was not going to be presented before the House in this session. That is what I was denying. That was not true, that a bill would be introduced 1.1705

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4189 Page 3 - ms Mr. Peckford. and had been given notice of relating to a relationship between the Public Utilities Board and Newfoundland Hydro. That bill, as the hon. Leader of the Opposition has indicated, is on the Order Paper and will be brought forward this week for debate. The question as to how the relationship is going to be, the nature of that relationship between the Public Utilities Board and Newfoundland Hydro, is one that I cannot ."_indicate this morning, because the whole question is still being discussed by my colleagues.

And until such time as that has been resolved, a number of major principles dealing with the bill, then I cannot release that information to the House at this point in time. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementarv, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

RORBERTS: As I understand it, the minister said that he could not ans~o1er the question about the relationship, how the bill would govern the relationship between Hydro and the Board because - I believe I am quoting him correctly - it was still being discussed by his colleagues,which obviously means that the government have not ~et taken their decision on their policy decision and in turn means that the bill has not even been sent to the printers even though it stands on the Order Paper,and that may or may not be an irregular proceeding.

My question though is this, Sir, my supplementarv: Given the fact the government have not yet decided their policy, as the minister himself has just confirmed, and given the fact that this session is now in its latter days, does the minister think that the House will have adequate time and the public will have adequate time - it is now Monday, we have not yet seen the bill, we have not seen it because it has not been distributed, it has not been distributed because it has not been printed, it has not been printed because the Cabinet have not made up their mind, and we are talking of winding up the House tomorrow or Wednesday, winding up this session - does the minister think that that is adequate time for this, Sir? 1.1.706

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4159 Page 4 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do , and the final decision concerning the bill will be given today and hopef~~y we will be in a position to discuss it tomorrow. MR. ROBERTS: Well, then you will have an argument in the House, a real argument. MR. PECKFORD: So what is new? MR. ROBERTS: .. Shod.Q.y, _sho.~d)', sha.!>_~)' railroading. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. PECKFORD: Lazy, lazy, Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, ask all the judges who are investigating the crookedness. MR.

PECKFORD: Ask all the people who watch the proceedings of the House. MR. ROBERTS: Right, ask them. MR. WHITE: If you are all finished, I will have a word to sav • MR. HICKMAN: Go ahead. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, and I would like to have some details on the spruce budworm's spray situation. · I understand that it was delayed over the weekend. I wonder if the minister could tell us what the present

schedule is? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it was delayed because of poor weather conditions. The planes are ready to go as soon as the weather is appropriate and the wind factor and all this sort of thing. They are ready to do the blocks in Western Newfoundland and in Central Newfoundland at a moment's notice, either in the morning or late in the afternnon,which is the most appropriate time. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 11707

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4159 Page 5 - ms MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary deals with the destroyed foliage of_ the forests throughout the Province. I wonder if the minister can tell us whether or not there has been any preliminary survey carried out to determine whether or not the trees that were infested with the spruce budworm last year have started to grow again? Because I understand that in some cases they have started to grow again. MR.. SPEA'KER: The hon. minister. MR.

MAYNARD: ·Under normal conditions if the trees have been infested for four years in a row, then the tree is dead for all intents and purposes and it takes about three years before the sap goes out of it completely. So you have approximately three years in which to harvest it to make any useful purpose of the tree. To the best of our knowledge right now, based on the Canadian Forestry Service estimate, there are around 800,000 cords in Newfoundland that have died or reach the mortality stage as a result of the budworm. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Health who is not here - I will come back to him. A question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Would the minister indicate to the House whether the controversy surrounding the appointment of Mr. Pat Murphy, a relative of Charlie Power, as unit foreman or superintendent in the Renews area, has been resolved,and if so, could he indicate how it has been done? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any controversy.

The appointments made by the Department of Transportation and Communications are strictly in line with the regulations and procedures set down by the Public Service Commission. M)t:_ SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. • SPEAKER: A supplementarv. 1.1708

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4159 Page 6 - ms MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I wish we could only debate this one this morning, because MR. DOODY: We only have three days left. 11709

June 13,1977 Tape 4160 - Morning AH-1 "'-IR. S P.~rONS : You have three days left. He have a lot more days left. ''1R. MORGAN : (Inaudible) }IE,. SHTI-~ONS: That is a good reason, Mr. Speaker, because,one~ I want to give you notice of the controversy and~ t-,;vo, the minister is not leveling with the House, Hr. Speaker. SOME HON. ~!EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. S IllMONS : 'Mr. S'Peaker, I am going to asl: a question ~vhen I get a chance here.

Hould the minister confirm whether or not the resolution to the issue rvas to hire t':vO foreman, to pay ·,oth men foreman's wages in a three man unit~ \.Jould the minister confirm that that is the case ? }~. SPEAKER: The hon.minister. ~!R. }!ORGAN : Mr. Speaker, sure I confirm it is not the case. HR. SL~ONS: Go away vrith you., boy . You are lving to the Hou~e. You are misleading the House. NR. SPE.Al\.ER: Order, please! HR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon.gentleman must retract that statement immediately. HR. SPEA .. TZER: Order, please! I must ask the hon.gentleman to with.draw. ~1R. SIMMONS: He is misleading.

I withdraw'lying~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I would ask the hon.gentleman also to withdraw the allegation that t~e hon.minister is misleading. 1.1R. SHll~ONS : Hr. Sneaker, if it is unparliamentary~ I will -do so. I understood 'del~beratelv misleading' was unparliamP.nt~rv I did not say'deliberate! I would submit that misleading is parliamentary, and if it is not,of course,I will withdraw it. J'.ffi.. SPEAKER: I have always gone on the oremise,and in this I am suoported by May,that specific lists as such of words although helpful are not definitive.

And I think as well one has to bear in mind the question of context,and there can be obviously very semantic hairsplitting. I think the question of context is important as ~ell. 11710

June 13,1977 Tape 4ln0 - Morning AH- 2 HR. SPEAKER: So I •,.;rould ask t~e hon. gentleman to ~.rithdraw the tern and then we can proceed. HR. s n~1mrs : I withdra~·J the term 'm:i_sleading! ~1r. Sneaker, On the supplementary, I wonder 1-mulrl the minister indicate whether it is indeed true that both Mr. Murphy and the man who was elbowed out of the job because of his political affiliation are both being paid superintendent's wages now? And that has indeed been the resolution to the rather thorny problem the minister created by trying to make political appointments. MR. SPEA.T<ER: The hon.minister.

HR. }fOR GA.~ : Mr. Speaker, I earlier indicated the ans'tver is "No.·~ i1R. SHJMONS: The answer is "Yes'.' HR. MORG.Al'l : Hr. Speaker, the answer is "No" and I take strong exception to be called a liar. ~· fR. SPEA...'I(ER: Order, please! The term has been withdrawn so it cannot be debated now. MR. HORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the appointments in the area referred to by the hon.gentleman from Burgeo-Bayd 'Espoir are the same as the appointments throughout the Province. They are made strictly ' in co-ordination, strictly in guidance by the regulations set down by the Public Service Commission. '~R. ROBERTS : Hr.

Speaker, a supplementary. "MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. J'lR. ROBERTS: Because the ministe~, Sir, is - well,he is not saying what in my view he ought to say. Can the minister tell us 'tvhen he will be answering the letter I wrote to him on May 7th? In that letter I asked for some further information, including ?Ointing out the fact that the man appointed to the position in Renews, the Renews unit,was the second man recommended by the Civil Service Commission, not the first, and asked how the minister squared this with

Section 12 of the Newfoundland Public Service 11711.

June 13,1977 Tape 4160 - lTorning AH-3 MR. ROBERTS: Commission Act which S?ecifically reauires that no appointments shall be made except on the recommendation of the Commission. And the man appointed was not recommended by the Commission. He ~-Tas recommended by the minister and by Hr. Charlie Power and by nobody else. MR.. SPEAKER : The hon.minister. MR. HORGAN: Mr. Speaker, to answer that question I think it is important to clarify the misunderstanding,or the inability to understand the procedures and regulations of the Public Serviee Commission by the han. Leader of the Opposition.

The fact is that the appointments are made by any department of government upon receiving the recommendations of the Public Service Commission. MR.. SIMMONS : And the local Tory candidate. NR. MORGA..'f\T: And the Public Service Commission unon recommendations from the Department of Transportation and Communications - there has never been an appointment made in any permanent position except if they ~vere in accordance with the recommendations made by the Public Service Commission. So the hon.Leader of the Opposition is apparently failing to understand the rules and regulations of that Commission. HR. snmoNs: HR.

SPEAKER: HR. SIMMONS : A supplementary. A supplementary. Hr. Speaker, is the minister aware that at least a couple of months before Mr. ~1urphy even applied for this job that the Tory candidate, Mr. Charlie Pmver, promised the job in the presence of at least ten or ~velve people.and assured him he would get it because of his good relationship with the minister? ~1R. 1-IORGA..._~ : ~. ROBERTS: HR. SPE.A..KER : MR. ROBERTS: No, Mr. Speaker. Hr. Speaker, a further supplementary. A further supplementary.

Will the minister confirm the fact that the gentleman who was appointed to the position was the second name on 11712

June 13,1977 Taoe lil60 - Horning AH-4 HR. ROBERTS: the list and whetLer or not that _ was the man recommended is something we can argue , but he was not the first name in order of preference on the list submitted by the Public Service Commission,~ but instead he was the second man. HR. SPEAKER: The hnn.minister. HR. MORGAN: Hr. Speaker, I will reply to the question as I did approximately a month ago,that all appointments made by the Department of Transportation and Communications in any permanent position are made strictly in accordance with the regulations of the operations of the Public Service Commission.

There has never ~een a man appointed to any permanent position in the Department of Transportation and Communications,and in my knowledge no department of government,except they are one of the recommendations made by the Public Service Commission. MR. ROBERTS: }!R. SPEAKER: Hr. Speaker, a further su~plementary. A further supplementary. And then I will recognize the hon.member for Eagle River. i:-IR. ROBERT'S: Mr. Speaker, since the minister by refusing to confirm what I say has in fact confirmed it. And we agree it was the second man appointed not the first.

Can the minister tell us whether he sought a legal opinion as to whether he has acted within

Section 12 of the Public Service Commission Act? }1R. SPEAKER: The hon.minister. HR. ~~I')RGAN : ~r. Speaker, shortl~ after becoming minister-about t~vo years ago, a little less than two years ago- the appointments of officials in departments under the guidance of the Public Service Commission laws and regulations were thoroughly checked out with the Department of Justice at that time and the procedures followed by me as minister are strictly in accordance to the la~-1. HR. SPEAKER: Ron .. member for Eagle River follmved by the hon. gentleman from Stephenville. MR.. STRACF.AN : Mr. Speaker,because of the seriousness of the 11713

June 13,1077 Tape 4160- {·forning All-5 HR. STRACHA."'if: situation I l·JOuld like to direct a cuestion to the Premier. As we are aware,during the last week or so we were auestioning the sinking of the \•!illiam Carson and as the member for Naskaupi is bringing in a private member's motion today~ I wonder if the Premier could indicate whether he is considering calling it a disaster or an economic disaster or in ~orne ~.rav a disaster,publically,so that the people can be compensated in some form or other.

And the second part of the question is that there are some p~ople,such as Ernie Norman, people who were returning skidders to Goose Bay to work in the ~voods and have a tremendous investment in there. They owe a Jot of money to finance comnanies for the financing of these skidders and they have lost everything, lost all,and it is a desperate situation. And I ~vender if "tve could manage to try and get somet;hing more definitive and we will help them out. "1-!R. SPEAKEP.: Ron. Premier. PRE!HER MOORES: ~r.

Speaker, I have already asked the people in Labrador Services and also people in the Secretariat to the Executive Council to start coming uo with plans as quickly as possible to try to alleviate the situation. I am hoping ~ o have a report from them today as to exactly -v1hat "tve will be able to do. In the meantime,! do not think anything could have been done any faster than the Ambrose Shea going in there to try to alleviate the new requirements because even tho~gh - She came into Lewisnorte yesterday. P"'lF.mER ~OORES: She came into Le,.,isnorte yesterday.

So it will be - what? - two or three days before she is up there, I ~uess. and so on will get in there, ~rr. Speaker, So I think the supplies And the but it is the financial hardshiP that is the ~roblem. financial hardshiP, if anything or everythin~ can be done is something that I honefully "tvill have for their information later on today. HR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, ~1r. Sneaker. MR. SPEAKER: A suPplementary. 1.171.4

L!. June 13,1977 Tape 4160- }!orning .AH-6 ~fR. S TP-ACHAN : The Ambrose Shea w·ill be leaving tomorrow but I understand that the Ambrose Shea is going to carry some produce and I understand that the suppliers who supply the Goose Bay merchants and so on obviously have not been paid and obviously are unwilling to supply any more food supplies and so on until they are paid. So I \vonder ~Jhat exactly the situation is there? That is fine that the Ambrose Shea is running,but it has got to carry some produce or else we are going to be in a disaster situation in Goose Bay. ~1R. SPEAKER: Hon,Premier.

PREHIER ''--rQORES: :fr. Speaker, the only thing that can be done is to work up either a bank guarantee for that,as I said the other day 9 using the insurance money that obviously ~oTas on the first cargo for collateral. And this is exactly the sort of thing that >Je are working on right now. ~. DOODY: Tt · \•7as not insured. PRE~HER ~100RES : Hell~if it was not then the CN is responsible for it. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Sir, because I think the Premier has just touched on the heart of the issue,as I understand it.

Hy question was going to be was it insured and the Premier on the side said the CN was responsible. I am not sure that I understand all the legal issues involved,but my understanding is that it may not have been insured and that it may have been the risk of the consignee, the orderer, the person in Goose Bay to insure it or not. I think that,as I am told, as I understand it, Mr. Speaker, that depends on whether the accident was a result of any neglegence on the part of the CNR or whether it was

an act of God or some other cause. So the question really is,given the fact that that nobody certain there is insurance money in play and thus there may be nothing to pledge as collateral,the question is whether the government will help in this instance presumablyby stepping in and guaranteeing hank loans or indeed making loans available out of its own funds to the purchasers, -.... 1.1715

June 13, 1.077 ill'_. RO"l3EI'.TS: to the store mmers in Goose Bay'l and then I suppose ~dth a vie,,r to ta1dng an assigntT'.ent or a subrogat::..cn of the consignees rights such as they may be determined to be. 3ut the question is urzent becausP- I c1o not k.'1m,r 1:-1hether \.rholesalers have cut off or not. '~y friend from LeHisporte (?fr. Hhite) has been told that they have not cut off supplies~but obviously they will want to be paid and we have heard from a nurr.ber of buGinessmen, Mr.

Rero 3rett and others that they do not have the money, you know,to get a second stock, particularly because this -v:as the firs·:: ship of the year and therefore haC. a larg~r crc".er of supplies than normally would be the case. But the insurance is in issue and that is 'tv:-.y the government will have to col"'.e into it. The han. Premier. P-::'F.FIEP_ ~~oo~ES: ~fr. Speaker, I agree with what the Leader of the Opposition says and if there is insurance "~>7ell, fine, that is ':.;ell and good.

If there is not,obviously '''e are zoing to have to do sot:1ething about it and we are going to have to C.o so1rething about it fairly quickly. It is not an easy one to sort of. Y,. PCBErT~: I agree. It could end up costing the governl!'ent some money too. PP.m~IER YOOP.ES: It could end up 'lery well costinp.; us sorr.e money~ but the thing that it could end up~I v:rould think'Jfirst of all doing is costing us some guarantees~ which I hope will ·- Hell,the guarantees tend to be cash quickly. PREMIEr 1'00~ES: From somebody, yes. ~T>. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville. 1-ffi • HCl·JEIL : ~~r.

Speaker, a question to the :~inister of "F' • .. ~nance . Urn.; that the l.'inister of Finance has receivec the • \dvisory Board's Hood Report, could t 1•e mi...1.ister indicate if he will be new tabling that report in the House? ~"P_. DOCDY: Ifr. Speaker, the :~inister of rinance has not received the final report of the forestry subcommittee. TI1ere are some-draft reports,whic~ I tried to iopress on the hen. member a few days ago,which have been submitted to that particular group. As a 1.171.6

June 13, 1977 ·rape :ro. ·H61 l ':'.. DOODY : natter of fact~I think they are meeting in St. John's today, the forestry .;ection of the acvisory group. lnd ~·7hen they have examined and recommended or other.vise the Forestry Subcommittee Task Force :'.epcrt, they \·!ill be for.-mrding it to the advisory board~who in turn will be shmving it and giving it to govern!!lent. r'hen governrrent receives it we vli.ll certainly table it, you knmv,there is no question about that.

But as of this moment there is no official docu.rnent in its final form, 3everal drafts have been examined, looke~ at,and are in circulation and I have no doubt the han. me~ber for Stephenville (ltr. ~·c!'reil) has then;. When the final docu~ent is prepared I have no doubt he ~._rill have that too before it is tabled. But it r;rill undoubtedly be tabled as soon as it is available. ~~~· SPElX~It: The han. Leader of the npposition. A question for the Minister of Transportation, and I hope he is a little more forthcoming on this than he was on the Southern Shore issue.

It zoes back to a commitment made on behalf of the government t~,1o years ago t-y the !!lember for St. Barbe (~~r. "''aynard), the present ¥.inister of Forestry and .. ~_griculture, at a rr.eeting in Hawkes Bay to a group of truckers at which the rnin:lster,I am told, t'!'le 'finister of ~orestry,I a'l1_ tole, told the trud~ers that the i;_igh~,rays contracts a~.;arcec1 under nPEE progranme 1·muld be changed to require the 3iring of local trucks.

Nothing . -.;.;as r:lone last year anc'l nothin~ (1as been done this year, and so my question to the !·•initer of Transportation, Sir, is is t~is commit!!lent going to he honouree'? ~-"!'. SFF!\F".E!?: The hen. 'Vinister of Transportation and Co!".munications. ~-~r. Speaker, first of all my colleague tells rie that there '\J'as not a statement made of that nature. 'iT~1at he did sav .qt that reeeting two years ago '\vas to the effect that he rm,Ild have the Depart~ent of Transportation and Communications investigate the possibility of having this done. This 1;·7as cone because shortly after 1.171'7

June 13, 1977 Tape ~Io. 4161 I became ~inister it was i~vestigatec then• I kno•.1,by myself and t!l.e situation is that it is 'i70rking out quite ·pel1 in co-ordination bet\·leen Transportation anC. Communications and t!:-.e contractors ~-dthout !1.:1ving it in the ccr.tract as a binding matter between t~e department and the contractor concerned - Does the minister believe that? YR. !!O?G.ft.N : - that it is working cut quite well except in cases where the contractor ~as his own equipment. ~.'?.. '?-GEERTS: ··Thich are all the contract c~s c'mvn :Torth. ~:!!_. ~~n~c&<T: ~rr.

Speaker, if I could ansv1e-r the question. y,_. P03!::T1_TS: Yes. But anst.,rer it, not this li~. e of nonsense. 1-"n. :A"ORG.,a.}'!': '\.!ell ,stop your nig-narging ever there~ '!-!]'_. PCBE:?TS: !'T .• ~ -~TF.PHY: Sit r!own. 1!R. P.OBEP.TS: Yes ,sit dm·m. 11!'_. HORGl~~T: Ee c.oes not \vant the information. 'VP. ·- _ ..... HUPPliY: He does not ~vant the - }~_ . !?OBE!-'TS: ! want information, not this line of nonsense. ~m.. ~ ~ORCA...~: ~~r.

Speaker, except in cases where the cant ractor has his own equipment, and ':v!J.en 1o.re a~e dec.lJng ~!ith the federal government under DP~E contracts He cannot legally stipulate to a contractor he must leave his own equipment lying idle and hi~e. on the private contractors. !f he has his own eC!_uipment he -r.t:st ~ut: it in use anc that is \vhat is happening on the ~orthern Peninsula. ~!ost of the companies involved there are larger companies and they have their O'tlm trucks.

But they have to ~1::.re local - And ,.1e cannot stipulate to them to first of all hire the local truc!.- _ers first. '!hey MUSt utilize their own equipl!lent first and then ser:cnd~-Y - and they are doing this - then they hire the private truckers in the local areas. ~- . !l0BEP.TS : are the on~y ones hiring any. The commitment will not be kept, that is what it boils co~m to. 1.1.71.8

Juele 13, 1977 Tape ~~o. 4161 rm- 4 som: RON. ~!EY?-EPS! Oh, an! As soon as the conversRticn is over,continue. ~'r. S;;>eal·er. He is ta]king abcu": me not 'Roger'. You are in his good books today. ~"P.. MORGAN: Anyone but you. Right~ P.i3ht! ~- ~ • SPEAF:EP_: Order, please! ~- ~... SI~1~1J~TS : Come on over 'Jim' baby. I need you badly. I need you. I need you so I can keep e..n eye en you. Er. Spea~cer, the ~~inister of Transportation and Co~nications a question. A couple of years ago his administration made a definite coT!L'!litme~t to co~plete the upgrading of the Hitless Bay Line.

That cormrrit!"'.ent Pas repeated in 19 76 and I ~-render now, ~·r. Speaker, if the I!'inister ~vill ccnfinrt that the government Fill co!"1-pl:te - !KP. ROBEPTS: Vl) s I!~mrs : - I al!l wondering ~vhether the !'linister no"7 1vill confirn that the government intends to complete the upgrading this " year? ~f'R. T·JHITE: Before Thursday. And nob~ithstanding the fact that poor old John Crosbie only got fifty at his meeting in Bay Bulls yesterday afternoon. !"P... r;;p:ITE: Fifty. I thought you said it T.ms - ''D'.. SPE..I\KEI'.: The han. Yinister of Transportation and Cor:municiations. ~~r.

Speaker, I think it is obvious that so!!1et.hins is on the go in that area up there. I th:i.nlr. it could be R hy-election., according to the questions this !"'O'!"'r.:fnr. But the ryeti.":ion ca!"'e it~ a littl.= ·~j~e ago from a great number of resid~nts in the area requesting the uTJzrading of the THtless 'Bay L:Lne and I can say at th:i.s time, CJS ::r. sai.c1 then in tl,e Tiouse of L~ . ssemhly, that every consiceration 1vill be given by this administration to doing that w·ork.. :11719

June 13, 1977 Tape No. 4161 ?T- 5 !f!' . SP'!:o~:s: And will the Prenier announce it tomorroH night? ~ 'T.' SPEAKER: T1e , mel'!'.b er for Eagle '-'.iver. -··'·-. - ~on. ~T. SI'~'C'HS: They are predicting he will by th'! wa~ r , like he announced tl:e tra~vlers in !-!arbour Breton. A question for the I:inister of Social Senrices. As t~e mL~ister is aware, most people on salaries in tl:e North are paid a I!orthern allowance percentage, a Northern allow.? .nce because of the high cost of living in the ~Jorth.

I wonder if the minister could s~ate whether he is prepared to approach Otta> ·!a and discuss the whole situation of allowing an additional or a X orthern allow<lnce on family allm.rance cheques, for instance ., and old age pensioners who are meeting the sal'!'e high cost of living yet have fixed sums given to them

whereas most salary people, and in £act most everybody nmv, get an extre~ely generous r~orthem allmvance and yet the old people and ,for instance "I family allo,·mnce still retains a fixed value, the same across the Province? ! ~ • SPEA..T<ER: The hon. ~~nister of Social Services. ~~-· BP.ETT: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman said, of course, that is a matter for the federal government. T:le have never considered taking that up r.vith them. Social assistance recipients get additional fuel allowance.

That is the only addition that is given in Labrador. ~ole have never given any consideration to approac.'Iing the federal gcvem1!lent with respect to people on 01d Age Security and the family allowance which is ·vhat you are talking about.,is it not,really? I c2..r.. tal<e the matter into con.sic:l.eration, ~1r. Speaker. FP. S:?EAKER: The hon. member for Rurgeo - Bay rl'rspoir. Yl' .• STt1'0: •1S : }'l:r. Speaker, a question for the l:on. the Premier :5.n the absence of the J' <inister of Realth. I wonder could the Prel'lier inform the Eouse '""h.ether the governl'!'ent or the De-partment 1.17~0

June 13, 1977 Tape :ro. 4Hil of Health in particular tas received any representations from org~1izations in the Grand Falls area aimed at opening additional beds in t~e Grand ralls Eospital? 7 :P... SPEAI':EP_: The ton. the Premier. Pl<.E}'IER ~~OOPES: I have no idea, 7•:r. Speaker. ~:P... sn~~mis: A supplementary, ~~r. Speaker. A supplementary. I ~vender would the Premier take the question and ~dertake to get the information.

And further, ~.;auld the Premier indicate t-1hether or not his administrat:i on has had any requests to meet with organizations in the Grand ~alls area to resolve this issue as it effects a number of long-terF_ patients in particular ~vho are nm-1 in the hospital end I believe are being requested to leave in the near future cue to a shortage of space. :1 ::I:. SPEAKE:!?. : The h~n. Premier. FFE'IE:?_ r-r0C'PES: I ~...:.11 certn:r::1ly try to obtain the information for t~e hon. gentleman, ~!r. Speaker. }'B_. SPEAKER: f. !F .• ST:PACE.AI': The han. member for Eagle Piver.

Yr .• Sreaker, a question for the ~-~inister of Fisheries. I understand there has been interest shown by some Japanese in the herring fishery on the Southern Labrador Coast and the ~Jort'hern part, a fishery in ~vhich they v.Tould be required to freeze the round herring, especially ldth roe in, and that representatives have been visiting the area and so on and have been indicating their vessel may be there thi.s Summer. Could the mnister indicate ~vhether he kno~·7S about this situation and indicate Hhat the situation is concerning that vessel?

The !"ton. ~(inister of 'f:i.sheries. ~Kr, Speal~er, there has been some interest shm·m in the herd.ng industry by Japanese and otrers in the areas mentioned by my friend. Certainly if he needs more I shall ~aybe be permitted 1.1.721.

J~n e :!..3, 2.977 ,. . _ape .. o. 4161 .T'·! - 7 HR • W. C.APTEI'. : to take the question as notice and provide some ans":vers to:norrow. .!!'.. S T~U.. C~..J : ~ r. Speaker . _ T.. SPEP.t:EP. : A s upple'!!'.entar y . ::r .. It is not a SUpiJlementary, a quest5.on. T.~e hon. member for Eagle ~iver. HR. STP.ACWT: A questien for the Yinister of ~ines and Energy. Almost two years ago we had published statements that the com~ty :-·f Hil1iams Harbour 'tvculd be given electricity areounting to $100,000, $1~0.~0", these statements coning from the trember for ~ask.aupi (1-~r. Goudie) and the Premier, he was speakin~? on behalf of the Prert'ier, and the cor.nnunity still 1.1.722

June 13, 1977 Tape 4162 EC - 1 HR. STRACHAN: does not have electricity. This is the second year now it has been included in the budget of the department. I wonder whether he could indicate whether the community of Williams Harbour will have electricity this summer, because they are getting into the boiling of herring in the fish plant there and this is a permanent community in which they are providing their own lighting plants but still have no electricity in the district. So I won~~r if the minister can indicate whether they will be getting it this year or not. 1-1R. PECKFORD: matter right now, Mr. Speaker. MR.

STRACHA.:.~: MR. SPEAKER: }!R. STRACHAN : I cannot give a final decision on that A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Could the minister indicate whether it was included in the budget or ~vhether it 'ivas dropped from the budget of the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro? Could he indicate that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, if I ?.new the answer to that one I would also have been able to give an answer to the ~irst part of the question. AN RON. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker - HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. George's. I had already indicated that I would recognize her. MRS.

MaciSAAC: Mr. Speaker, my question was for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, but I will direct it to the Premier in the absence of the minister. I am wondering what the government is doing with respect to the purchasing and marketing agency that was referred to in the 1975 Speech from the Throne anyway to assist farmers? MR. MAYN&~D: MR.. SPEA...T<ER: Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD : Pardon? The hon. minister of Forestry and Excuse me, Hr. Speaker, I did not hear 1.1723

June 13, 1977 Tape 4162 EC - 2 PR. MAYNARD: the total question. I was walking down the - ~. ~1aciSAAC: I am wondering what the government is doing with respect to the purc1:asing and marketing agency that ~vas referred to in the Speech from the Throne in 1975 to assist farmers in Newfoundland. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MAYNAP~: The purchasing and marketing agency to assist farmers? Hr.

Speaker, I would like to say that we are still involved in trying to sort out the marketing system for agriculture products in the Province. ~7e have been trying to get the farmers involved 9 as the han. member might be aware, through questionnaires, circulars and this sort of thing, and so far the response from farmers to any kind of a marketing set-up other than what they presently have, the ad hoc type system, does not seem to be - either it is not accept- able to them or they are not in tune as of yet with a total,overall marketing system, but we are still --:vorking on it and we are looking at various possibilities: organized marketing boards, agencies, brokers for farm products and the whole thing, But we are trying to get the farmers to first of all indicate that they want some sort of a centralized or co-ordinated marketing system and~secondly,what type of marketing system they want.

ORDERS OF THE DAY :HR. HI OOf.AJ.'l : ~otion 5. Hotion, the han. the ~·~inister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Refinery Agreement Act, 1973," (Bill No. 44), carried. On motion, Bill No. 44, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave, 1:-!R.. HI CI.OYill : Motion 6. }ffi.. SPEAKER: On this motion I should point out that the bill is numbered 105 and should be numbered, I believe, 115. I understand that it is supposed to be Bill No. 115 - a typographical 1.1724

~- -- June 13, 1977 Tape 4162 EC - 3 ~fR. SPE.A..T{ER: error as 105. ~otion, the han. the l~inister of Labour and Hanpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Shops Closing Act," (Bill No. 115), carried. On motion, Bill No. 115~ read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. r·fR. HICKMA...~: Hotion 7. Hotion, the han. the Hinister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Preparation And Revision Of The Statutes And Subordinate Legislation Of The Province," (Bill No. 116), carried. On motion, Bill No. 116, read a first time,ordered read a second time presently by leave. :m.

HICK.:.'f.AN: Hotion 8. Motion, the han. the Minister of Fisheries to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing And Coastal Vessels Rebuilding And Repairs (Bounties) Act," (Bill No. 117), carried. On motion, Bill No. 117, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. r1R. HICKHA,.~: Order 25. Notion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Restructure The Law Society Of Newfoundland," (Bill No. 81). MR. SPEAKER: l-1R. HICKMAN: The han. Minister of Justice. Hr. Speaker, I will try to summarize what is in this bill as concisely as I can.

Most of the bill simply repeats what is already in the existing Law Society Act. May I say at the beginning that the Law Society of Newfoundland cannot be accused of rushing into a bill to amend or to regulate their activities. The last Law Society Act of Newfoundland was passed in the year 1834 by William IV,

Chapter 23, the second session. And now as we move rather slowly, but effectively and efficiently,it has become appropriate and necessary and imperative that there be a new Law Society Act to govern 1.1725

June 13, 1977 Tape 4162 EC - 4 }ffi. HICKMAN: the operations of the legal profession within the Province. There are two or three features in the bill, Mr. Speaker, that I think would be of interest to hon. ~entlemen. 0 No. one is a provision in the Law Society Act which,for the first ti~e, provides for the appointment of lay representation on the Benchers. The Benchers of the Law Society are the governing bodies of the pro- fession. And this is new ground.

I believe it is the first of the professional societies, but I am not sure of this, to embark upon this procedure and philosophy, and it is one that I think will be welcomed and acclaimed by the general public. The Act provides that the Chief Justice of the Trial Division, the Minister of Justice,and two lay persons appointed by the Chief Justice of the Trial Division for that purpose will recommend to the Benchers the appointment of the two lay persons who are to serve on that august body. Then, Mr. Speaker, I direct han. gentlemen's attention to

Section 9 of the Act in particular, which deals with - I think it is 9 - no, sorry,

Section 20 dealing with the powers conferred upon Eenchers, one of which is long overdue, giving Benchers the right to prescribe that there be audits of the accounts of lawyers and law firms and that they may require as the condition precedent to a new practicing certificate, a certification of a chartered accountant to that end. And this is designed obviously, to protect clients' funds. Mr. Speaker, as well there is provision in this Act under

Section 61, 62 and subsequent sections under the Right of Seizure and Custody of Clients' Property. There has on occasion arisen over the years a situation where a sole practitioner in par- ticular has died and where there has been all sorts of difficulty in trying to get into his office and get access over clients' files and to see to it that the work that has been carried out or has been started 11726

June 13, 1977 Tape 4162 EC - 5 MR.. HICKHAN : has been completed. The same situation has arisen on one occa~iofi to my knowledge where a sole practitioner became mentally i.ll and it was very difficult indeed fot the Law Society to have a lawyer go in, take ovel;" the files and complete the work. There is adequate protection set f.orth, because an a1>plication has to be made to a judge in order to get an Order for a representative of the Law Society to move in and assume that responsibility and complete the lvork. There is also provision in the Act for the establishment of an assurance fund by the Benchers, which again would 1.1727

June 13, 1977, Tape 4163, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: - - act as a trust fund or deposit which in the event of - I hope this never happens, and I may add that it did not happen in my day in practice and, I think, for many years before, but as the Bar becomes larger all the time and the Society membership increased, that if there was a misapproptiation of funds that there would be an assurance fund to which clients can loo~ for some reimbursement. Over and above that there is now, I believe, a policy, a group policy covering matters that may be somewhat related thereto.

There is also provision in the Act for the establishement of a Bar admission course. Right now any candidate for call to the Bar must write examinations in practice, procedure and local Statutes. There is a very strong committee of young lawyers set up who, I understand, have responsibility for preparing - I believe they have completed their preparation - a Bar admission course which again they will make a condition precedent to a call to the Bar.

The last thing that is new to the Law Society Act, and not contained in the present Act, is the establishment of the Law Foundation, and in particular I direct han. gentlemen•s attention to

section 72 of the Act which sets forth the powers of the Law Foundation to use any monies that come from the interest on trust accounts for legal education, law reform and the establishment of a legal referral service, and the establishement and maintenance of law libraries and the provision of scholarships. It will be a while, I suspect~before that is in full swing, but at least the concept is good and it is one that will bring, not the Law Society in Newfoundland in line with the Law 11728

June 13, 1977, Tape 4163, Page 2 -- apb 1'1R • H I C KrM N : Societies of other Canadian Provinces, but I believe this bill goes fruther in modernizing, and it is more meaningful to present day demands upon the legal profession than will be found in any other Act governing the practice of law in our sister provinces. Certainly it is as good. I would like to think it is even better legislation than is found in the other places. In any event, Mr. Speaker, I move, with a great deal of pride, second reading of this bill. ~~ R • S P E A K E R ( Y 0 U N G ) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. i~R. ROBERTS: ~·1r.

Speaker, let me begin by saying, Sir, that we on this side support this bill with pleasure. I say that in a dual capacity, both as a member of the House and as Leader of the Opposition in the Chamber and also because as a member of the Bar in this Province, I feel that this Act represents a step forward, and I think it ought to be recognized as such. .. First of all, Sir, it is a bit of an historic occasion. As I recall it the original Law Society Act was passed in 1828 or 1829. ~1 R. HICKMAN : t•1R. ROBERTS: 1834. My friend the Attorney General says = 1~34.

That would have been about the first act passed by the - legislature of this Province. The first House of Assembly met in 1832, and the Law Society Act would have been one of the first acts passed. I should imagine that the Act now on the books, which will be replaced by this bill when it becomes law, is probably the oldest single piece of legislation that we have. It is not the oldest principle, not the oldest legal principle which we have. There are many principles in our law which can be traced back a long way before 1834, but I think it is the o·ldest single statute and it has 1.1729

June 13, 1977, Tape 4163, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: remained essentially unaltered in the 143 years in which it has been on the Statute books. I think it has served fairly well, but it is obvious the time has come to implement some new legal principles and the time has come to update and to restructure the Law Society. I cannot help but regret, though,that we are going to call it still the Law Society of Newfoundland.

I think it would have been preferable if we had called it the Law Society of Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly now that we have,for the first time in our history, practitioners carrying on their work in the Labrador part of this Province. There are two practitioners, if memory serves me correctly, in Labrador City, Mr. Miller and Mr. Hearn, and there is an articled student in Goose Bay, Mr. Hasom, who I understand will shortly be taking the call to the Bar, and I believe intends to set up in Labrador.

Of course we have a number of lawyers who are still carrying on the very ancient and very noble tradition of, in effect, becoming legal circuit riders. Mr. Isaac r·1ercer, for example, who is now moving, I guess, into a period of semi-active work at the Bar, become a senior partner in a new firm, Mr. Isaac Mercer for many years provided legal services to the Northern parts of this Province, in particular. It is an old tradition and it is inevitable that it die, but still it is the end of a tradition. Mr. Speaker, the bill itself is fairly straightforward as far as I can see. I have read it through.

The minister was kind enough to supply me with a copy and I have looked it through very carefully. There are a number of new points, but I think it is fair to say there is nothing terribly significant. I do not think there are any great departures in this bill. I 11730

June 13, 1977, Tape 4163, Page 4 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: do not think there are any radical steps forward. Nonetheless, there are changes and I would welcome them. The main purpose of the bill is to rewrite, to redraft, to update, to reclarify a number of sections in the bill which have become over the years, either inadequate to serve their purposes or just straight outdated.

And after all, a law which was adopted when King William the Fourth was on the Throne of England - I believe King William the Fourth was the only member of the Royal Family, certainly the only Monarch of England ever to have been stationed in Newfoundland. He was stationed at Placentia as Prince William Henry. He was an officer in the Royal Navy. He was Commandant or Commander of a naval garrison at Placentia for a while.

I think the Anglican Cathedral still has down in its vaults a piece of communion plate which was presented to the Anglican Church, the established church as it would then have been, the state church at Placentia, presented by Prince William Henry, as he then was. That was in the latter years of the 18th Century, during the period when his - let me see if I remember the genealogy. Was he a son of George the Third? Yes, he would have been a son of George the Third, Sir, and he was preceded on the Throne by his brother George the Fourth, the Prince Regent. Mr.

Speaker, the minister has touched upon most of the points which I wo~ld wish to touch upon, and I do not need to go over them in any detail. I very much,in particular, welcome the introduction - and this is new - of a very much strengthened and disciplined provision and an entirely new principle in our law. I believe it is called an assurance fund but it amo~nt~ to an ~nsurance fund, a fund whereby the members of the Bar will each contribute by way of a levy each year to i fund, an~ that fund can be used to satisfy any claims ~173~

June 13, 1977, Tape 4163, Page 5 - - aob MR. ROBERTS: made against any member of the Bar who has defaulted under his professional obligations. I think it should be noted that it is only ones professional obligations. If a lawyer is acting as a lawyer, then his brethern at the Bar, in effect, will guarantee his client does not suffer any financial loss. But that is only in the lawyer's dealings as a lawyer.

If the lawyer is dealing in an non-legal capacity, for example, lending money on mortgages, which I believe has been held not to be entirely a legal matter because a number of other groups and bodies are lending money and indeed, I suppose, very few dollars are now lent by lawyers acting in respect of mortgages. Most of the money now lent for mortgages is lent by trust companies, or banks, or Central Mortgage and Housing.

But when a lawyer is acting as a lawyer, Sir, and where his client has suffered, as I understand this principle and this bill now, we members of the Bar will guarantee, within limits, the recompense of that client. I think that is a significant step forward. We have not had many instances in Newfoundland.

The Bar, for all the noise and all the hard words that have been said about the Bar in this Province, my understand- is there have been very, very few instances where any member of the public dealing with the Bar of this Province, dealing with a lawyer practicing in this Province, has ever suffered any financial loss. There have been some, there have also been some cases,of which I am aware, where lawyers have personally guaranteed the result of their own mistakes, and I think that is only fitting. The minister may just look quizzical.

I know of two or three which have come to my personal attention, and there may have been others, ~1732 - ~

June 13, 1977, Tape 4163, Page 6 -- apb .1R. ROB ERTS: doubtless . Also, of course~ most lawyers now carry -what is it called? - Malpractice insurance. The difficulty with that is that it is largely nugatory, because before one can claim under the insurance a judgement has to be entered against the lawyer. I do not think any lawyer would very happily or willingly allow a 11733

. ' June 13, 1977 Tape 4164 (Horning) PK - 1 }~r. Roberts: judgment to go against him on a case of professional malpractice; obviously he would rather satisfy the claim from his own resources before allowing the matter to go to court. But in any event I think it is a welcome step. I think the Benchers or the Bar and the Benchers ought to be congratulated on introducing that principle. I am very happy to see the strength and disciplinary provisions.

Again we have not had in this Province to my recollection or to my knowledge very many cases of lawyers going below or lapsing from the standards of ethics, the standard of practice. But the fact remains the Bar is undergoing really a fundamental change, and that is perhaps the point that ought to be stressed.

I have been at the Bar ten or eleven years although I have not ever practiced in a commerical sense, and I was quite surprised,looking upon myself as a relatively junior lawyer, quite surprised recently ~.rhile looking through the law list- actually we ~\·ere considering the question of appointing some judges and looking at the law list - and as I recall it, if there are 150 members of the Bar now, I am about forty-five or fifty in order of senority; in other words,there are forty-five to fifty members of the Bar who have been at the Bar longer than I have, and I hasten to say senority only in that sense of the word ·which means that our Bar is a very young Bar, it is perhaps the youngest in all Canada, two-thirds of the members or more are junior to me at the Bar, and are, you know, fairly young and have a long and active practice ahead of them.

That has had some notable effects, Mr. Speaker. I think it is ~.rorth pointing them out. First of all, I think it is fair to say the quality of legal work has gone up. The lawyers who come to the Bar now without exce?tion have law degrees. A fe~v years ago_, indeed for two or three years after I was called to the Bar ,it ~.;ras possible to .aome to the Bar without having taken a degree in law at some recognized university. 1.1734

June 13, 1977 MR. T.JEITE: HR. ROBERTS: MR. WHITE: ~fR.. ROBERTS : AN RON. HE~!BER: Tape 4164 (:Horning) The last one was Allister Murray,was it not? Pardon? Allister Murray the last one, was he not? No. I thought Mr. Richard Greene Has the last. .A..llister Murray. MR. ROBERTS: Allister Murray, son of Judge Hyles Murray, nm..r PK - 2 retired,was the last. He read articles I believe ~nth the Department of Justice? Hhere did he read articles? MR. T'ffiiTE: Bill Hall - MR. ROBERTS: Not Bill Hall, Bob Hall. But in any event,Mr. Allister Murray was the last to come to the Bar. I thought Hr.

Richard Greene was the last lawyer to come to the Bar without having had a law degree, but now it is no longer possible. Every lawyer must have a formal degree in law granted by a recognized university, and that effectively means a Canadian or an English university. I am not even sure American law degrees are looked upon ~vith much joy in Canada. I think that is a good thing.

I do not want to take away, and I ~..rould not in any way wish to take ar.vay anything from the men ~.;ho practiced at the Bar- I think the Bar in this Province has produced more than its share of giants, and more than its share of men who could stand ~ITith pride with any lawyers in the ~vorlci - but the law is becoming immensely more complex, ard I think it is only fitting that la~vyers become better trained so that they can cope with it. l\Te are also seeing a ne~., phenomeron; for the first time no~v la,vyers are beginning to spread throughout the Province.

The days Hhen there were la-~·ry-ers practicing in St. John's and maybe a few in Corner Brook and maybe a few in Grand Falls have been replaced with a system that now sees lawyers established at most of the larger communities throughout the Province, and I venture to say before very much longer we will see lawyers practicing in almost every community of,say,three or four thousand people in this Province. And that is a 11735

June 13, 1977 Tape 4164 (Horning) PK - 3 ~fr. Roberts: change that is being brought about by economic factors more than any other. There is simply not enough room . in the ~yes of many lawyers f~r all the lawyers to practice . in St. John's or Corner Brook or Grand Falls, and so they are spreading out, and they are doing very well. Also,this is the important point about the spreading out, it is providing people ~vith infi:1itely better legal service. The gentleman from Menihek (Mr. Rousseau) is in the House; do~m in Labrador City there are now two lawyers, the firm of Miller and Hearn, Mr. Arthur Miller and Mr.

Ed Hearn. MR. ROUSSEAU: And other lawyers visit. MR. ROBERTS: I am. sorry? MR. ROUSSEAU: Other lawyers came there. HR. ROBERTS: Yes.I talked earlier about the ·:.:circuit riders. But the fact remains having lawyers practicing in a place like Labrador City gives people an immensely better legal service than does having la~"Yers visit on circuit, and I do not use the sense of judical circuit riders. I think it is important. I think it is something that we should welcome. And I think it is something which ou~ht to be encouraged.

I think it is one of the changes that we will see in the next few years,more and more Ne~.rfoundlanders having access to legal services, and they need them. Not only are more and more Newfoundlanders falling afoul of the criminal code provisions, and particularly the breathalyzer · :ind cases of that ilk. but also people, Mr. Speaker, as Your Honour knows throughout the Province are more and more relying upon such things as mortgages. would be unheard of 1.1736 A few years ago a mortgage

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4165 Page 1 - ms Mr. Roberts. outside, you know, St. John's, Corner Brook, Grand Falls. People building homes, for example, in Lewisporte, represented by my friend from Lewisporte, would not have looked for a mortgage to enable them to build their house. Now through the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and through the private agencies, more and more people are getting mortgage loans, and this means that they ought to have lawyers to protect them and look out for their interests and that means in turn it can only be done if lawyers spread out,as they are. Mr. Speaker, I think it is worth noting that there is a special

section in here, and I am very glad to see it, covering members of the House of Assembly,

Section 33 - well 33 in its entirety -but the particular one is

Section 33 (4). MR. HICKMAN: It is the Roberts, Barry, Crosbie amendment. MR. ROBERTS: It is the Roberts, Barry, Crosbie amendment. And I think the House ought to know about this one, because two or three years ago there was an original draft of the bill done by the Law Society and it was a very good draft. Most of it is here unchanged. But one of the requirements of that draft, which I am sure nobody had anticipated - well, let me go back.

Section 33 allows the benchers of the Law Society in effect to determine that a member, a lawyer, is not a practicing member and, therefore, his status is put in sort of a deep-freeze, in limbo,for the time being. And that is a sensible provision. But as the

section was originally drafted it would have required a member of the House of Assembly, with the exception of the Attorney General, who obviously is practicing law, but any member of the House of Assembly or the House of Commons to rewrite law exams when he left the House and went back into practice. And an informal but with very effective lobby composed of Mr. Leo Barry, then the member for Placentia West, and I believe a bencher of the Law Society at the time, Mr. John Crosbie, then the member for St. John's West,and myself very quickly got together and made earnest . i: representations to the Attorney General and to the Law Society. 1.1.737

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4165 Page 2 - ms Mr. Roberts. I remember quite a long conversation with the then secretary of the Law Society, now Mr. Justice Goodridge of the Supreme Court, and I am very happy to see the

section has been changed. I think it is right. I think it is proper. If a man serves in the House of Assembly he ought not, therefore, to be barred from returning to the practice of law without havin2 to go through the same process of legal education as any students would. No other profession is under a similar disabilitv, and I think it is only prooer that the lawyers, who presumably have as close a connection with the heart of the business of the House, the business of making laws, as do any member. It would have effected, Mr. Speaker, any other member of the House who was a lawyer with the exception of the Attorney General or the Solicitor General. The

section now is a little broader. Mr. Speaker, there are only one or two other points that I would like to mention. I was goin2 to say I am sorry that there is not any provision in here for the creation of specialists, but upon reflection that may not be the thing to put in legislation. None the less,I do want to say that I hope that the bar in Newfoundland will look and look seriously and consider seriously and earnestly consider the same type of action which is now being contemplated by other bars across Canada.

I am not sure it has been adopted by any bar, but I think that perhaps we ought to look at it, and that is the question of not just having lawyers serve as specialists, but designating them or certifying them as specialists. Here in Canada we have not even adopted the basic distinction which is fundamental to the British bar - not the British bar~ I should say the English bar, the Bar of England, which is also the bar of Wales, and that is of separating people into barristers and solicitors.

Here if a man or woman is admitted as a lawyer he or she is a barrister and solicitor automatically and is entitled by law to perform any legal service at all. That is not a question of competence. 11738

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4165 Page 3 - ms Mr. Roberts. It is simply saying that _the individual has met certain basic tests, has undergone certain requirements and has a certain degree of good character all as certified to by the benchers. And then the individual is admitted to the bar and enrolled as a solicitor of the Supreme Court. I do not think we should go to the barrister and solicitor practice in Canada. I never have.

For the benefit of hon. gentlemen who may not be caught up in this terminology, a barrister is restricted to appearing in court, and he is a specialist in court work and indeed a specialist in higher court work. The solicitors are restricted to lower courts, I believe county courts and lower in England at present. They have the right of audience in county courts. But generally a solicitor does office work. The conveyancing of properties is a solicitor's work, the drafting of trust deeds and contracts. But the appearances in court are the prerogative of barristers • .. - o:- :11739

June 13, 1977 Tape 4166 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: And indeed~you can get to the point in England where you have to have two barristers, because if you wish to retain a Q.C., which in England is a very high designation- not as it is in Canada, but in England it means a senior counsel - and to retain a senior counsel you must also have a junior counsel, so you get stuck then for two sets of fees because no senior can appear without a junior. MR. DOODY: The senior would get a higher fee. MR. RO:BERTS: The senior gets a very much higher fee.a~d I do not know what - I saw some fees recently of a thousand guineas a day.

And lawyers' fees are still stated in guineas which is the extra 5 per cent to the lawyer's clerk. MR. DOODY: ~eople who pay them are guinea pigs. m.. ROBERTS: A guinea used to be twenty-one shillings. But lawyers can be very - Lord Goodman, as tre hon. gentlemen may - is a very experienced member of the - a solicitor, he is not a barrister - and I would think that Lord Goodman - a very competent lawyer - but the Attorney General can tell us, Lord Goodman believes that the lawyer is worth his hire. The Minister of Justice would confirm that?

So are other lawyers. :tAR • HURPRY : Neary is the most aware of that, I would say. MR. ROBERTS: Well,my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has considerab'le experience with lawyers. But the point I wish to make is that the law is becoming more complicated. Lawyers are specializing.· We have lawyers in Newfoundland today, particularly in St.

John's,who do not do anything but conveyancing work,and we have others who spend almost all of their time in court, and we have others who are becoming well and favourably known for their expertise in the field of labour " law or in particular types of company work; some lawyers tend to specialize in marine work. But we do not have any indication to the general public and the result is that a person looking for legal services - ~ 11740

June 13, 1977 Tape 4166 EC - 2 MR.. ROBERTS : does not really know where to go and has no way to know other than he gets a lawyer and he does not realize that particularly for more advanced work, more difficult work, some lawyers are better than other lawyers - they have made a specialty of it, they have made a study of it, they are well up to date on all the latest developments. The lawyers have not taken it as far as they ought to. I very much resent the fact that the lawyers have allowed the accountants to get a strangle hold on the field of tax work in Newfoundland.

Tax work is legal work and yet the lawyers have largely abdicated the field to the accountants who have, you know, come into it very strongly. And the result is if today Your Honour should wish to get some advice on how Your Honour can best safeguard Your Honour's hopefully considerable estate against the ravages of the Capital Gains Tax or the tax authorities in general, then Your Honour would doubtless be well advised to seek the advice of one of the accountants around town as opposed to a lawyer. That is the lawyers' failing.

But I think the time has come when the la,vyers ought to look at,perhaps,indicating a degree of special­ ization. The doctors came to grips with it many years ago and have now got to the point almost of no return, have got the point where almost every doctor is certified even if he is only certified as a general practitioner. I think the lawyers ought to look at that and it may not be appropriate for the bill, but I think it is certainly something which the Bar ought to look at. Mr.

Speaker, let me conclude by saying very briefly that I think this is a good bill, and I think the fact that the bill is before the House - and I do not want to take anything away from the Attorney General, I do not intend to, ~ot in this instance - I think the fact the bill is before the House is a tribute to the Law Society including its Treasurer, and for the benefit of all hon. 1174:1

June 13, 1977 Tape 4166 EC - 3 MR.. ROBERTS : gentlemen, it is not without significance that the head officer of the 1aw Society is called the Treasurer here and across Canada. I mean,that indicates something of significance~ I am sure. The gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. Hells) is the present Treasurer of the Law Society. The Benchers and all of the members of the society I think they ought to be congratulated, I think they have reason to be proud cf this bill. It is significant. It is not often we repeal

an Act that is 143 years old and replace it with a new piece of legislation. I think the Law Society sort'of served the Province well. I think the Bar in this Province has performed with as much expertise and as much responsibility as any Bar anywhere in the English speaking world, and I think by and large, Sir, the lawyers of the English speaking world can claim justifiably to have discharged their public trust.

And let me end by saying that, Sir, that the public trust is what we are really talking about, because in this bill or in the ~Nenty or thirty others that are now on the statute books of this Province what we are doing in the Legislature is conferring upon a group of citizens, a group of private citizens - they are not answerable to the public, they are answerable only to their own members, although there is, and very welcome it is, the provision for the appointment of some lay Benchers to the Law Society' 11742

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4167 Page 1 - ms Hr. Roberts. and in that we are following Ontario and a number of other jurisdictions­ but we are conferring upon private bodies, Sir, the right to exercise quite considerable powers, the right to discipline, if need be, individuals, members of the society dealing 1Yi th the public, the right to restrict entry into a profession. You cannot be a lawyer in this Province unless you have been admitted by the Law Society, and you .cannot practice law unless you are a lawyer, unless you are a barrister and a solicitor, and there a~e very stiff penalties.

Section 85 and so forth prohibits any legal activity by anybody not a member of the Law Society with certain quite narrow , but, I think, quite proper and quite defensible exceptions which are set forth in

Section 86. Well, Sir, that is a great public trust. It is one which has got to be discharged with a tender regard for the public interest. I think, Sir, that over the years the benchers and the membe~s of the Law Society of this Province have excercise that trust with a due and a proper regard for the public interest. I think the lawyers of this Province have served the public interest well. I am not saying there could not be-improvements, and I am not saying that everything was done was right. I am not even saying that I agree with everything that has been done by my brethern at the bar.

But I can say, Sir, that in my opinion over the years the people of this Province have been well--served by their legal advisers, and I think that this bill, Sir, will enable that tradition to be continued and enable it to be enhanced. I congratulate those who 1vere responsible, Sir, for its drafting and for the decision to introduce it, Sir. We on this side will support it with much pleasure. MR. SPEAKER: ·The han. member for Lewisporte. HR. WHITE: Hr. Speaker, I do not think it would be fair to let this bill go through or the principle be adooted with only a couple of lawyers speaking in the debate.

I have a number of points, three or four pointstthat I just want to bring up, matters that have come to my attention in the last couple of years, and I am wondering if we maybe could get some response from the minister when he stands to speak. 11743

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4167 Page 2 - ms Mr. ~fuite. Mr. Speaker, it is no secret that the la~v profession is a closed shop.As Mr. Speaker knows and as all hon. members know, it really is a closed shop. And in recent years, or in the last, well, I suppose, century, it has been common practice for the lawyers to follow the money and stay in St. John's,if that is where the money was. The Leader of the Opposition in speaking did mention the going outside of St. John's, if you will, of law firms, and that is very encouraging to me, repr ·asenting a rural district. I now find it very convenient, for instance, Mr.

Speaker, to refer clients to lawyers in Gander and in Grand Falls, and it is good to have them in both places, because in Grand Falls,if you refer a case to a law firm in Grand Falls chances are that ten minutes later the opposing person in that particular squabble is calling you to recommend a lawyer. M.H.A.'s recommend more lawyers than anybody else~! can assure you. And so it is always good to refer one particular complainant, if you will, of the particular case to a law firm in Grand Falls, and the opposing person to a law firm in Gander. But I am wondering, Mr.

Speaker, why the Law Society, and maybe they do, do not encourage a little more decentralization. Because I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that there is plenty of business in the town of Lewisporte, for instance, to keep a lawyer going or even a couple going. Major firms are located there, yet we have to deal with Grand Falls and with Gander. And I have said to a couple of my friends who are lawyers in Gander and in Grand Falls, 5oys,move out to Le~~sporte, because sooner or later somebody is going to do that and they are going to make themselves a good buck.

So I just hope that at some future date,or maybe they do now, the Law Society would do something to encourage lawyers to travel and to live and to work in remoter parts of the Province, because I am sure that in places like Lewisporte and Twillingate and Springdale and other places like that that there is sufficient business to keep the lawyers going. And just as an example, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the dental profession has fcund that out now, because only recently have dentists started to move around the Province. They are finding that they 1.1744

June 13, 1977 Tape no. 4167 Page 3 - ms Hr. tfuite. very, very busy, and I would suggest to you, Ur. Speaker, that one of the reasons that the denturists c~e along so quickly in this Province was because they dared to provid .e some kind of service to people in remote areas. So I would say t.o the lawyers if they want to do a good job of PR, start moving out to remoter areas so that the exp.ense on the taxpayers of this Provip.ce, the people who really cannot afford the access to a law firm would be easier to come by. 1.1745

June 13, 1977 T2pe No. 4168 HR.~ WHITE: ~-'r. Speaker, I ~·mnder if the minister when he speaks could address himself to the closed shop aspects of the Law Society? P.mv difficult is it now for a young r.<m, no matter how bright he is, to get into law school ?

I know a lot of young people who want to go into the law profession but they just cannot get accepted anymore. ...A.nd I am just wondering if there is some kind of an agreement, and I am asking questions, I do not mean to make alleged charges or anything, I just want to know if there is an agreement between Dalhousie and Osgood Hall and all those places with the Law Society in this Province. And they phone up and say, "Should r..Te take this particular guy in for training?

Can you take another la,;,'Yer on do'ti.'Tl there?., Or, 11 Do you have enough down there alreaC.y and should we bar anybody else from getting into Dalhousie or into any other of the la~,;r schools across Canada. n I just Honder if it is a closed shop and if there is an~~hing we can do about this because there is still a need for la~·'Yers in Newfoundland and there is still a need for lawy~rs in the remote area and I think they should be encouraged to go to law school and ri~ht now I think they are finding it very, very difficult to get into law school and that is too bad. 1-~r.

Speaker, just a couple of more points, and there is one here that might sound a bit stran~e but I ~·Tant the minister to tell me about it and that is \vith respect to fees being charged by la~'Yers. There is nothin~ in this bill ~·rith the exception of the collection of fees. I knOT.v they have no fee schedule. I know this has been argued in the past that lawyers reallv cannot have fee schedules,but I wonder hoH it relates to the ethics of the Law Society with respect to the fees they charge? 1-rr. Speaker, I have had a couple of pretty blatant examples of what I consider to be overcharging in the last 1.1746

June 13, 1977 Tape No. 4168 lffi. WRITE: couple of years and it concerns me very, very much, and I could relate a couple of incidents to tf.e I:inis ter of Justice because I want him to know about this, and that iF in the case of a couple of drug cases in this Province, a couple of drug cases, the la~,ryer that was hired charged the t~vo individuals involved $2,000 each, cold,hard cash, before he •vould even poke his ~ose into a courtroom. Ee wanted $2,00Q on the table before he wotud walk into a courtroom and he got the $2,000 and the case is still not before a court and that is t•,Jelve months, ~rr. Speal::er.

Those particular individuals, ~vhetter or not they are going to be guilty or acquitted or convicted, they still do not know ~vhat is going to happen. They have been ~vaiting twelve months and this particular lawyer charged them $2,000 each in order to even take the case before a court and I think it is a scandal. I did mention i~ to the «3ecretary of the La,.,.1 Society and I do not kno~7 if anything is going to be done about it or not. But I really do not want to kick up a particular big racket about it until at least the boys get their cases over with and see what happens.

Now the second one I ~.;rant to mention, ~!r. Speaker, is in connection with insurance fees that lawyers charge when they are doing insurance cases. Now I am not going to say they are excessive but they do in some respects ma..~e double m.onev. Ani! I TJ;_J.] just relate this rarticular one to the minister. On a $25,000 insurance claim the lawyer got $5, 01)0. Nc~.v that might not be too bad - }1JL }fUP.PHY : ~~. HH.ITE: Is this fire? ~!o, this is in accident insurance, on the road~ a fellmv gets beat up, $5,000 for collecting $25,000. J.Tm,, maybe that is not too bad.

I went to see the lawyer and I sat dm.m with him and he went through with me what he had to do. It took 3 ix months of phone calls and he had those all tabulated and letters and travelling, expenses in hotels, arranging for witnesses, so really 1.1.747

June 13, 1977 ':'ape ~o . 4168 ~r:· - 3 the $5,000 for colle cting $25,000 ~ay not have been too ~ad . I '.rill not say anything about that . I j ust said to the lady ~·7ho contacted me about it, 11 Look, I think it is fair . P.e had to put a year's <;o;ork in on it so let us leave it at that . " Bu t , }~r . Speake r, this particular lawye r also - and I am not running dmm this lawye r, this is a lavryer ~o1h o is a f r iend of mine- but t he lal·~ers col lect conmissions fron }1edicare fo r arr anging a case for a client •.Yho t hink s s he has been done in in the case of an accident.

So really the la'(;ryer is making money f r om ~'edicare and from the government while at t 'he same time char ging the individual ,.;ho has hired this pa r ticular la,.ryer. ;!mv I know the lawvPrs at the table anr! the ?1inis ter of Justice know \vhat I am saying because 1.1748

June 13,1977 Tane 4169 - Morning AH-1 ~·1R. :·!lUTE : you knm.r, they are familiar ~.;ri th this but say where this particular lady went to a la~vyer and said, "Okay.

I want vou to respresent me to collect my money because my husband has been beat up in this accident." So she went and the la•..ryer collected the money from the insurance company, w'On the case in court, ~-Jas a~.;rarded $25 ,00() but in t~e process he also collected $2,000 from the client from the insurance settlement for 1\~edicare and got a kickback of, I do not know how much it was, ten, twelve or fourteen per cent from Hedicare for collecting the money for the !!Overnrnent. ~Tm.;r I 'vas a little hit dubious about that at the time, I did not know too much about it .And I ;ust ~.Yonder if this is a commcn practice,and if it is a common practice I -v1onder if it is ethical~and if it is ethical,I wonder if it is legal.

I would just like for t~e minister to go into it because it seems to me that the lady or the individual r-rho retains a la~vyer to look into an accident or something of that kind is also providing a means l:Jy 1·1hich the lawyer can make monev. And my argument to the lawyer -vras why do you not give the commissions to the person who was in the accident or substract them from the amount that she " Has charged for doing that particular work? So I would like to know something about that because if it is kickbacks then certainly rve should look at it - and kickbacks is a bad -v10rd.

But if somebody is getting ten or fifteen per cent for collectin~ money from Medicare when ~fedicare did not retain them, then certainlv I think we should have at least an exulanation. These are a few points I wanted to make, Mr. Speaker. !".R. SPE AKFR: If the hon. ~inister of Justice speaks nmv he closes the debate. I thank the hon.members opnosite and in particular the ~on . member for Lewisporte and the questions he ;ust raised. When I shuddered I lvas not shuddering at what you said. I shuddered when I heard you crack vour knuckles. 11749

June 13,1977 Tape 4169 - ~,forning AH-2 ~Tow firstly,the su~gestion, the allegation, that the legal profession is a closed shop. In one sense,every profession is. The medical profession, the dental profession, thev have to be and this is why they have conferred upon them the very responsible job of insuring that those who enter the profession are fully and adequately trained. For instance, today a voung man or ~voman embarking upon a career in the legal profession will first take an undergraduate de~ree in Arts or Commerce,or some in Science.

I know some now who are going into engineering first, ~vhich I think is a verv, verv desirable thing,which is a minimum four years plus then three years in a reco~ized school of law,plus nine months articling. And there is talk in this bill of making it a year, and they ~vill also under this bill have to take bar admission courses. This means that they are spending in effect eight years in training in order to enter into tris profession and then they must get,and they should have, and the public demand that they should have some form of protection and that only these people be ?ermitted to practice law.

Fi.rst when I started nracticing laH, 11r. Speaker, . ' the circuits were going full swing then and I can recall a p.entlem8n who has long since gone to his reward who used to do a lot of convevancing out there and he Has not a lawver. And ~ve could count on at least three cases before the 6ircuit Court in Comer Broo1-":, each circuit arising out of the conveyancing or the drafting of that particular gentleman. Now in the beginning the person probably thought that he or she was getting something for nothing or getting a very cheap fee.

With respect to the decentralization of the legal profession, that is certainly ongoing. Today we have in this Province a large number of lawvers, I would think in excess 1.1750

June 13,1977 Tape 4169 - Horning AH- 3 MR.. HICKMA..~: of thirty,practicing in the city of Corner Brook. When I started practicing law there were two practicing in that city. We must have six or seven in Grand Falls, we have at least two if not three in Gander, two in Labrador City, one in Marysto~vn, two or more in Clarenville and there is very little doubt in my mind that the need is going to grm-1. One of the reasons for it is Legal Aid. HR. DOODY: Did I read that there is one office open in Pouch Cove, a branch office? ~!R . HI C!01AN: I do not know.

But ~.;hen started nra ct icing la"~<', ~vhen I was called to the bar, I looked at the Burin Peninsula ~and it would have been impossible for a la~ryer to make a living down there. Today I _think that the Burin Peninsula can absorb three or four. He have had several 1.1751.

June 13, 1977 Tape 4170 (Morning) PK- 1 ~1r. Rickman: things happen, One is the establishnent of district courts throughout the Province, ~vhich mean, and very properly, the ~itigants no longer have to come to St. John's. Fe have Legal Aid. He have doubled the number of magistrates in the last five years. So the courts are much more readily available to littgant~ • . ·all of r,!hich generates the need, and properly so,for la~~ers. And people are becoming more conscious in that particular area.

Now the question of legal education, and the ability to get into law school for Ne~·rfoundlanders, and indeed Canadians, is a rather vexing one. There is no agreement between this government or the Law Society of Newfoundland and Dalhousie Law School. I understand Dalhousie Law School will accept ten qualified applicants per year from Newfoundland. I do know they will take two magistrates per year without question. They also have a orogramme~ Hhich is a very desirable one.,of the mature student. I knmv a young lady from this Province who worked for a long time after she came out of Grade XI in a law office in St.

John's, and a couple of years ago decided to enter Law School, Dalhousie, as a mature student. She did not have the undergraduate qualifications that would be required of the normal student. And she has now successfully completed her second year law. And I think I know another one who is about to embark upon that course this year. MR. WHITE: Hhat qualifications do you need? MR . HICKMAN: You have to be over twenty-eight years of age. They look at the kind of work that you have been involved in during your ~.,rorking years, your maturity. that is required. There is an entrance examination ~. F. 1~'HITE: MR.

HICK1·1AN: The minister himself may want to do it. That is right. There ~vas a study commissioned by the Maritime Council of Premiers last year into the need for additional la~v schools in the Maritimes. And Dean Soberman of Queen's School of 11752

June 13, 1977 Tape 4170 (:-laming) PK - 2 Mr. Hickman: La~v carried out the study. He had to include, and did very pro?erly include into his studies, the requirements of Netorfoundland, because obviously Newfoundland students turn toward the Maritimes first for their legal education. His recommendation came down very strong against the establishment of another law school, and particularly in Newfoundland. Number one, he says a viable I la~v school must have about 150 students minimum, otherwise you do not attract to that school of law· the kind of professors that are so necessary.

Professors today are insisting that there be two in each discipline~ two professors in the field of contracts, minimum, two in taxation, ttoro in courts, two in criminal la'tv,so that they compare and do research together. His assessment in Newfoundland ~vas that the most we could ever anticipate · in Ne't-lfoundland t-70uld 'tle bet·Heen thirty and forty applicants from qualified students • -To ask the question then, do ~ve provide an expensive laH school to educate 150 Canadians .. would be very desirable, great for national unity but hard on the pocketbook of the Province. ~! r.

Speaker, the cmmnents by the han. gentleman 'tvith respect to certain fees that were charged in a drug case: I cannot comment on that. If the Lar-1 Society obviously cannot fix fees in cases that go to court. i1R.. F. mUTE: ·Hould the hen. member permit a question? Yes. HR. F. 1-lliiTE: The question is this, and I should have asked it: ~fuat does a client or a person do if he feels that he has been unjustly treated by a la1vyer or charged exorbitant fees? I mean~w·hat does he do, a guy ,,yho is in a small community? ~.fR • R I CK"1AN : Hell_,that Has the very thing referred to by the hon.

Leader of the Opposition, the very desirable, and strength and discipline procedures that are in this Act. If a person feels that he or she is not getting value for their money they have an absolute right togo to the Benchers. The Benchers can recommend to them, and probably would in the right case,that they change solicitors and that there be a refund of the fee. 11753

June 13, 1977 Tape 4170 (Horning) PK- 3 !~r. Hickman: But that is difficult in najor criminal cases. Hith res1'ect to the insurance claim, the "!)Osition is this~that under all of these cost shared health schemes, and prouerly so, if a person v1ho has availed of them institutes ' legal proceedings they are obligated to include in the claim by the way of special damage any monies paid out by Medicare or under health insurance.

And it is quite proper to apportion the cost, if you collect $25,000 for your client, and $2,000 for Medicare the total recovery is $27,000, and you should apportion the fee, you know, urouortionally. 'M.R. ROBERTS: }1R. HICKMAN: HR. \\1HITE: ~!R. RICKHAN: MR. liJHITE: MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) Medicare. No, ,for Medicare - Give us specific case. If they are subrogated. They get a commission. -Yes, but is Medicare~~ing to pay the solicitor a orooortion of the legal fee? I MR. HICKMAN: Yes. MR. \·JETTE: Yes. MR. HICKMAN: Yes. The same thing under health insurance. It has ah1ays been that ~vay with health insurance.

MR. T_,.Tf.UTF.: It is almost a double fee. 11754

June 13, 1977 HR. HICIO.!k\f: ~fR. ROBERTS: paying, but the fee is - MR. HICIQfPu\f: :t-!R. ~V!!ITE: ~'R. ROBERTS: the full fee. HR. HICICA'.AN ~ }1R. HIUTE: ~-IR. HI CI:C¥,AN : the matters - ~-· DOODY: the rates by regulations. MR. HIGKY.A.\f: Tape 4171 EC - 1 If you - Well I suppose it saves the client That is right. They still have to pay. Yes, but he should not have to pay No, there should be an apportionment. 1-Jell, he does not. But, Hr.

Speaker, I think I dealt ~.;rith Haybe the House of Assembly should set - raised by the hen. gentlemen opposite and I thank them for their ?articipation in this debate, and I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Restructure The Law Society Of ~ewfoundland," Bill :'1o. 81, read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the ~nole House presently by leave. ~~-· :IICKl~.&J: Order 28. ~· lotion, second reading of a bill, "A""1 Act Respecting Certain Leasenold Interests '\·Jithin The City of St. Jo:m's," (Bill No. 100). ~m. SFEAKE'R: The han. l1!inister of Justice. mL HICKYlAN: Nr.

Speaker, I ~.;rill not dw·ell very long upon this bill. The han. gentleman from st. J olm I s East c~~r. Harshall) I think can truly be named as the guardian or the father of this piece of legislation. L'\1 :aO:l'. ~"EEBER: The Only Living Father of - HR. HICKHA.i.'J: There has been a problem existing in the city of St. John's 'vith particular reference to leases that were entered into - property leases - prior to the second day of August, 1921. 1.1755

June 13, 1977 Tape 4171 EC - 2 ~IR. HICKMA.'l: There has been no adequate provision for the acquisition of the freehold property or title under the lease. Some of these leases are about to run out. Most of them are ninety-nine year leases,I believe - no, not ninety-nine year leases - but sane are about to run out and there has been apprehension. It covers primarily the

section of St. John's underneath the height of land - A.."l' HON • llEHBER: South of Le11a.rchant Road. rfR. HICIO!Ai'l: - south of Le~~rchant Road HR. nOODY : My old area. }!R.. HICIQfA..T\j': - in St. John's Centre and in St. John's East. And I know both han. gentlemen who represent these two districts are very conscious of the problem. And this bill is designed to cure it and bring some order to it, and I am sure the han. gentleman from St. John's East would like to be heard and I will simply move second reading. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. John's East. MR.. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, this is a very important bill for a large number of people who reside in the city of St. John's south of the area from Elizabeth - between Empire Avenue and the water- front and between,say, the Battery and right up, I think, to Campbell Avenue , up in that area, _ andon Topsail Road there are some. A real area of concern this is for a lot of people because many persons in this area of St. John's have their houses actually built upon leased land, not freehold land, and a large number of these were built upon land that had been leased prior to August 2, 1921.

Indeed many of the leases were from the 1880's and 1890's and are about to run out in the next five, ten or fifteen years. Now the effect of this has been catastrophic upon the persons who are residing in houses on leased land in that even though they are not run out yet, they are about to run out. They cannot get financing from banks, they cannot get financing from mortgage companies. It has resulted in them being unable to get the necessary - AN RON. MEMBER: And they cannot sell. 11756

June 13, 1977 Tape 4171 EC - 3 MR. M!\RSHALL: - or neither can tney sell them purely and simply because the ·purchasers cannot get the mortgages. Now what the present situation is, ~s this: Under the City of St. John's Act, leases entered into prior to August 2, 1921 can be bought out at their fair market value as if they were vacant land, as if the houses were not there on the property. And you deterndne the fair market value from the basis of 1.1757

June 13, 1977 Tape 4172 Oforning) PK - 1 Hr. Marshall: values that are presently existing. And what is contemplated by this bill is to state that this particular formula Fill no longer apply., because it is unfair and it is unrealistic to turn around and say that somebody ~..rho has had a house on land, say, for seventy or eighty years that they can buy the land out at its value as if it were fair marke~ at the fair market price. ~R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, ~vould the bon. gentleman yield. }fr. Speaker, the . . hon. gentleman may be coming to this, but it is a point that I think he would want to underline.

That applies only i~ respect of residential premises, Commerical premises under the fair market value. HR.. MARSHALL : Right. I was going to get to this. This bill relates to residential premi .;es. Commerical premises are still on the fair market value. I will get to that in a moment and explain it. But persons ~vho have homes and are residing in homes, and oym homes have not been able to get title to their property. You have to buy it at the fair market value as if it were vacant land. And this bill says that we are not going to go along with this formula any more.

Now ~..re are going to set a formula whereby anybody yJho has a residential prorerty on leasehold land can buy it out at a rate of forty times the annual ground rent.

Since most ground rents,and many ground rents are set at the values for ground rentals in the 1880s and the 1890s,this is going to mean by and large that the pronerty owners can buy out their land, the freehold to their land at amounts of between $600, $700, $800, and $1,000 as contrasted with a nrice of $5,000, S6,000 that they could under the old formula. \fuat the government is saying to the landlords is that ~,re are no~ going to allow you to treat this as an investment, the return of ~..rhich ~vill be in ten or fifteen years or a shorter period of time the right to renew at today's large rates for, you - kno~v, at today' s swollen values for ground rentals, we are not going to allow you to look at this investment whereby the house 1.1758

June 13, 1977 Tape 4172 (}forning) PK - 2 '-'~'r. ~arsh2ll: will at the expiration of the lease go into your hands after ninety­ nine years, but we are going to treat all of these leases as if ~hey were an investment. ~nd in effect what you can get, and the only thing that you can get out of it is an amount of forty-times the annual ground rent,~vhich lvill mean that a person no~r say receiving $20 a year ground rental will receive $800 for his freehold, the $800 can be invested and tvill result in between $70 and $80 a year interest.

So it is fair and equitable as far as we are concerned from the landlord's point of view, but more so it is fair and equitable tvith res?ect to the protJerty owner's point of view. Another aspect of this bill, Mr. Speaker, that has to be brought to the attention of the House is the fact that as a result of the absentee landlords, the fact that many of these leases were entered into seventy or eighty years, many of the persons involved have long since left Newfoundland~ They are residing in England, New Zealand, Australia, you name it, the United States.

Of course,the orginial lessors are now dead, and the interest has spread dmvn to their children and their children's children. So in some cases you ~et even the ridiculous situation of - I know in one case of one ground rental where one of the owners holds one-three hu:ndred arid sixtieth of an interest in the lease. And when you talk about one-three h~ndred and sixtieth of an interest in a $20 rent you can see ~.vhy he is not interested in signing any documents, and cannot be located, has no interest in the determination of the freehold at all. AN RON. MEMBER: ::1R. MARSF.ALL: tv hat they are.

These are absentee landlords. These are absentee landlords, yes. This is And what the bill does is that it gives I believe it is a six month period of time for these people to appoint an attorney, that is a person in the Province of Newfoundland to act on their behalf, failing which the Registrar of the Supreme Court will be 1.1759

July 13, 1977 Tape _4172 (Morning) PK - 3 ~~r. Marshall: able to act on their behalf, and the Registrar of the Supreme Court 'l-7ill be able to make out the good titles, so 'tve will not have the grave problem that has occurred with many people here even when they wanted to buy out their freeholds, they could not locate the o~vners, and the owners could not be readily obtained. So the Registrar of the Supreme Court in those cases has the right to make out the titles.

There is a provision in the Act that if the landlord has made any contribution to the house at all, which would happen in a very rare instance that the amount of that contribution can he ascertained by arbitration, there is provision there for the appointment of an arbitrator. landlord is an absentee landlord any questions If the are to be settled by arbitration, but it is always to be remembered that residential homeo~vners will only have to pay forty times the annual ground rent and the Registrar of the Supreme Court on the re-port of the arbitrator vrill have to make out the deed. 11R.

DOODY: Is it possible that this principle may be applied to places like Harbour Grace or Carbonear or what have you? It would seem to me that the same sort of situation pertains. ~-ffi.. MJ..RSHP..LL: It is not acuteqsee,in those cases. It is not acute. ~!R. ROBERTS: Was it not the Great Fire which caused much of the trouble. And vle have the City of St. John's Act here 't·rhich C.ealt 'Hith these leases in a very particular and peculiar manner. For instance,we do not have in this bill to deal with leases in the city of St. John's after August 2, 1921. t!R.

ROBERTS: Both of these note the particular distinction between "a building lease" and others. That seems to disappear in respect to this. HR. MARSHALL: Instead of calling it a building lease you call one an ancient lease, and the other is called a modern lease; a modern lease is after August 1, 1921. 1.17oO

July 13, 1977 Tape 4172 (~orning) PK - 4 MP.. ROBERTS : But even the acient ones are divided into residential and commer:i.cal. ~ -1R. MARSHALL : Yes. The ·ancient ones - I ~vill get to that now because the hon. member asked the question. It is not intended \•Y ith respect to commerical pro~erties to have the commerical holders or the tenants of commerical properties \vho are operating a business be in any different position that they are right now.

The owners of stores, who are operating stores from premises,can only buy out their freehold on the same basis as now, at the fair market value at the time of the acquisition of the property. And there is a very real reason for this, and the reason is,number one, the major concern of course is \-lith persons t-1ho have homes constructed on land and are living in fact there. But the other factor is that in recent times, in very recent times there have been transactions Hhere the freehold to comnerical lands have been acquired and they have been ac quired at substantial prices.

So it does not seem fair at this particular stage to change that category. Now we have also provided for the instance where somebody is living in a home and operating a store from dmmstairs or in a part of the premises themselves. That will be considered as residential and be able to be bought out at forty times the annual ground rent. HR. MURPHY: What about a big house with five apartments like some on LeHarchant Road? Would they be kind of commerical or r.1h<='.t? MR. MARSHALL: No,they would be residential. HR. MURPHY: Residential. MR..

MARSHALL : Apartments would be residential because, you knm-1, \ve have not got in the older parts of St. John's large apartment blocks. Any large apartment blocks built in recent years,before they would be ab~e to be built there would be a condition that the freehold t-1ould already have had to be bought out. So there is no real problem there. t.17ti1.

July 13, 1977 Tape 4172 (Morning) PK- 5 MR. ROBERTS: Hith a house that you rent two or three apartment that is commerical under this. HR. MURPHY: That is what I say,a house Hith five apartments -rented. HR. ROBERTS: But the landlord should - why should - ~. . MARSHALL : Nmv if the landlord lives in it, it is going to be residential,or this was the intention anyway. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is not too much more I can add to it, I mean,the provisions of the bill are there, and it is a piece of legislation that,you know,has long been overdue.

Hhat in effect it is is that it gives the homeo~vners of leasehold land the right to buy out their freehold; in other words,to acquire their land at a rate equal to forty times the annual ground rent they are paying. Now that is with respect to residential leases made prior to August of 1921, Those after August of 1921 are not dealt with in this Act,but re2lly- well they are dealt with in the Act,but their position is not changed because all of those as a result of the Act that was bought in at that time can be bought in at a formula of b:venty times the annual ground rent.

But v7e have said forty times the annual ground rent in this case because there is a very real distinction; enquiries have indicated that it is the practice r.rhere landlords can be located to accept an amount of betv:een forty and fifty times the annual ground rent. So 1ve have set it at forty. He have also dealt with the absentee landlord position that there will now no longer as a result of this bill be any inconvenience suffered to people as a result of absentee landlords. The absenteer' landlords have six months from the date of the enactment of this bill 1.1762

June 13,1977 Tane 4173 - 'forning AH-1 :nL ~· {ARSFALL: to apnoint an attorne y in this Province to act on their behalf, failing, ~·7hich the Registrar of the Supreme Court ~vill be deemed to be that attorney and act on their behalf upon receiving the compensation. r,re feel the bill is one that is fair to all parties. He do not think that the landlords can complain about it. ~·ie know tl1at it 'vill be very beneficially received by those many hundreds of people who have homes in the city of St. John's subject to leases of this nature.

It 1vill co-operate coincidentally with the ~eighbourhood Improvement programme to very much appreciate and upgrade the housing in the older parts of the city of St. John's by reason of that fact that it Hill more easilv noH allm.;r the sale of houses to take place, mortgages to be obtained and the necessary capital improvements to be made in the various places concerned. _ So that is generally the gist of it then. Residential houses before 1921 to be •;mrchased for forty times the annual ground rent. Commercial property prior to 1921 we are not that concerned about.

They can be purchased at the fair market value on the same basis as now. Absentee landlords will no longer be able to inconvenience the citizens of the people of St. John's as far as the area as,I say,Seuth of Empire Avenue. I think that this is one of the most fonvard bills that has been presented to this House in their best interests and one which I knmv and I exnect will he very ~,;ell received. It is long overdue because it has already caused the tie up of the land system in the city of St. John's by this leasehold device that came into effect in the late 19th century.

It has caused a great deal of problems to persons in the city itself because it is a very real problem when one is living on land when you 1..rant to get the deed to the property and you cannot get the deed because the mmers are away,~ And,number two~ that vou ~vould have to uav under the present rate some five or six or even seven or eight thousand dollars for the block of land on which your house stood for forty,seventy or eighty years. 11763

June 13,1977 Tape 4173 - Horning AH-2 MR. 1:-IARSHAJ.. .. L: That certainly is manifestly unfair. The principle of this bill says that no longer will this investment be regarded as one the return of which can be the taking back of land and house at the end of the term but it is to be considered as an investment !3er se • The landlords can receive what has been adjudged by reasonable landlords~ the few reasonable landlords there were in the past,as a reasonable return in which they can invest and receive more money really than they are receiving on ground rent.

And it is a most satisfactory solution to the people concerned. so,as I say,I do not know if there are any other questions. I know the Hinister of Justice can perhaps answer them but generally speaking that is the gist of the bill.

And I would hope that it would receive the general approval of all members of the House because unless one has had really experience in this particular area, actually owning this land or representing a district in ~·rhich so many of these houses have been tie0. up by these absentee landlords and what have you, you really cannot realize the full import and effect that this bill will have upon the city itself. It is long overdue. It has been wanted by the City Council and 'bv persons 't-7ho have,. as I say OJ been very much inconvenienced as a result of it. MR.

DOODY: That means that ~-Te can pull up all these funny little bronze markers that were located all around the neighbourhood. There Has a little bronze marker ~.;rith the initials of the absentee landlord inscribed and the~r kept telling us ~ve ~vere living at the mercy and by the graciousness of some landlord tn England. ?·ffi.. HARSHAJ:.I:. : T.Jell,~.;rhen myself and the hon.ministe~ were growing un 1 do not think t~ere r.ras pavement around, but I think probablY . - pavement has perhaps since - ~!IL DOODY: ~1o.,these things 11rere much 1-,igher than that. Thev -vere dandy. Dogs found them very convenient.

HR. ¥.ARSPALL: They can be tal:en down as ~vell. 1.1764

June 13,1~77 Tape 4173 - ~rorning AH-3 ~1R. SPEAKER: FoneLeader of the O~position. HR. ROBERTS: ~fr. Speaker, this is a very technical piece of legislation and in a sense it can be regarded as a bit of a la~ryer' s dream, but I think that 1110uld be ~rrong. I think the gentleman from St. John's East has outlined the reasons vThy this bill truthfully and truly ought to be regarded as a significant piece of legislation and one that rights 1;-1hat has become an historic inequity. It may not have been an inequity at the time the system of property holdin 2 s in dm-mtown St.

John's was put together but historically over the years it has turned into a very grave and a very serious inequity. Let me sav a word of congratulations to the ~entleman from St. John's Fast. He has made a bit of a cause of this particular issue and I think we ou~ht to_recognize that and I think we ought to congratulate him. I do not knm..r whether the government would have moved without his intervention~ hut I do feel that ~is intervention certainly helped to get the matter resolved and I would like to recognize that.

All the more so because the hon,gentlernan and I have certainly had our differences of O?inion on public matters in the past and I have no doubt that 'tole will again. But on this issue, Sir, I think that he deserves commendation and I am very happy to ~o it. ~r. Speaker, as hon- gentlemen have outlined, the Minister of Justice and the gentleman from St.

John's East, this bill essentially deals Nith a situation ~-1hich has grmm up in this city and in !'articular! v the lm.rer part, the older part of the citv, the area of the city South of Circular Road - Empire Avenue and indeed I 'tvould say really the area of the ci tv South of the old Higher Levels, the line of lfi!.i tary Road and Le!vfarchant Road, Hamilton Avenue and to the West and down I guess about as far as maybe the old Cross Roads and then the BatterY here in the East End of the city. It grew out of what was then the v1ay in 'tvhich property was conveyed. In England I believe to this 1.1765

June 13,19 77 Tape 4173 - :'!orning AH-4 UR. ROBERTS: day they still enter into these long-term leases as a matter of normal practice,and ~ve adopted it here in Ne~vfoundland. It ~·Tas made all the Horse because the fire of 1892 rt1hich destroyed such a large part of ~·;rhat TiTas then the city of St. Jo!-tn' s - it is nmv- dm-mto'Wn St. John's that fire cleaned out a lot of houses and led to a lot of leases being issued. And most of the leases of ~vhich ~v-e are now sneaking ~·rere drawn in the late 1881)' s, the 1890's and the early years of this century.

In 1921 the legislature moved to draw a distinction and to provide a process ivhereby leases made after that date could be dealt ~vith but nothing has been done before nm.;r with the older leases. ~1r. Speaker~ the gentlemen in the hall are being - HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. ROBERTS: - more thaJ'I. loud. I am sorry. I do not wish to interrupt them QUt it is difficult. Their voices do carry. I think other speakers have described -.:·;rhat happens. It is reallv very straightfonvard although it seems to be very technical.

If you are the lessee. if You are the holder of the lessee's interest under a lease, if the lease if one that ~v-as made subsequent to 192l,you can buy the freehold, the landlord's interest, the lessors interest, you can buy that for twenty times the ground rent ~rovided it is a building lease -and I think almost all of the leases made since then have been described as building leases. That is a term that is defined - but if you have one of the older leases made before 1921 it was essentially up to the lessor whether you bought it or not.

And there were ti·JO problems that resulted: The first was the question of an unreasonable lessor ,"torhere a lessor said, '.'Well maybe the convention which has gro"tom up is forty times the ground rent 7 but I think my land is worth more and I am going to hold out for more and I shall not sell'.' There is a provision for an arbitration clause but I think it nas been only used once. I think there was a case involving the old Newman estate on Duckworth Street ~vhich - was it :11766 - 'C

June 13,1977 '1R. ROBERTS : />_~ RON MEHBER: HR. ROBERTS: Tape 4173 - ~·forning AH-5 Ducla.;rorth or Water Street? Hater Street. Hater Street. There has been one arbitration under it. A difficult process, a cumbersome process, a lengthy one. 1"R. DOODY : downtown. ?vTR. ROBERTS: That is the one •.;rho owned all the property The Newman estate still owns large parts of dmmtown.. And the l1cLoughlan estates Olffi large areas. There are a number of older firms and companies. I will tell about one \.;rhich surprised me going back 999 years. I had occasion to be asked about a piece of land - HR. DOODY: but 999 years!

HR. ROBF.RTS : The hon. member may have aged, Hell.,the piece of land in question is mmed by my family. It is the house I gre\.;r up in when we lived over "t!le store" on Duckworth Street, down by the T.A. Buildin2 at 340 Duckworth St.. Ny father's office ~Jas on the ground floor and we lived on the upper floors,and \oe had occasion to bargain for the sale of that and the sale did not go through because there was only fifteen or sixteen years left on a 99 year lease and it was not worth buying.

We got in touch with the lady - she hapPened to be a grand-daughter of the original lessor, we thought-'l.nd she wanted $20,000 for what amounts to one building lot in dmmtown St. John's, and it is not worth $2o,nno, whatever it is worth. The ground rent~ I think, was $50 a year so that is 400 times the ground rent and the real difficulty that came up \vas that it was not a building lease,~Y"ithin the term of Hhich that is used. He could not find the origional lease tvhich has been issued bv the Crown about 18l!5 for 11767

Ju:1.e 13, 19 77 ~ape :'TO. 4_1 7 4 999 years and there was no wav to get clear title. ~Je11,uncer t!1:Ls act that will be resolved. ~rr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman 11ho spoke of and dealt Hitl: the effect of the act and the ~v-ay it T,;orks, as I ~;ray going to say there are tivO problems, one where you coulC. not fi~d the lessor, or the lessor's heirs,and secondly,where the lessor v:rhen you could locate him or her >-rould not sell for a reasonable price. ~·lell the ?rice is no,.1 snecified and the Legislature is sayi:1.~ ~.~hat it cl.eems to be a reasonable price, and Hhere the lessor or a representative cannot be located there are poHers confered u'()on the Clegistrar of the Suprel'le Court to issue title and sufficient protection is provided for t~e lessor's interef'ts and that !T'oney ~-!ill be 1-:.eld in trust and so forth.

I r.rould c:ts'P:. a question of the L}j_nister or perhaps the gentJe~.~...,_ -Frol'l. ~t. John's ~ast c·r. ~·arshall)~~-r~oever The definition - well. we divid~d inrn ;md Pnr and modern,anc in respect of ancient leases, those before 1921 9 T·7e diYic1e theM into resir:".ential .:nd com!!1erci.al. ~rell trat is a ,_ralid distinction. "::he resi(lenti~.l le~.se, as I rend the act~ ?.nd I thin~~ the gentleman frol'l St. Jo'l,n Is "'ast n·~. ''arshaJ.

l) mac'le tl-J.is sa!"e 1JOint, embra.ces Hi thin it the case of a 1Jerson T.7hO li,res in a ':orre but has tT·ro or three otl:er apartments in it, or one or t\•:'o,for that m~.tter; that is not a commercial J.ettin7 ,.,j_thin the sense of this '!:Jill. ::--:mv I t~ink that is an im~ortant point ~md I think He ought to be clear on it hecause to !!'.e the case of perhaps somebody on Lime Street 1-r1:1o lives in one part of the house and rents the other part out, that is differ-;nt t~an the c2.se of somebody >vho m-ms a house, people mm many houses around tm-m and let tr.em out co1"lnercially. 1m. a-vJful lot invested in the older hor.~es lH:e a lot of the - !:-~.

RIJBE~':''S: ~-i8ht. 'Ri~ht. lnd in many c2ses you have got people ~,·ho own the older houses but have moved into the other parts of the city and yet kept the older houses and let them out 117()8

June 7, 1977 Tape r:-;o. 41 7 4 Y~. . 'P.OBEP.TS: as commercial investments. For exampJ e.,340 :!!ucbvorth Street is not lived in by any me!:!ber of MY family nmv, it is rented on a commercial basis. Is that City Terrace? '?. OBE~_TS : ~o,it is not City Terrace. It is just to the ~ast of City Terrace. Oh yes, that way. I J'E. ROBERTS : It is tb.e small block bet,,ee!l. Jell Street nnd t~re T.A_ tuild~_ng.

There are three or four houses there and~as I say, I gret-7 up in one, indeed liven there tl-!e night the ole TA building burned dot-m and it ':Jas - I re:rr..ember the policeman carrying us - that is all I remember of it,but it did not even scorch the home in ~vhich we ~•ere living ~-:rhich was three or four feet a't•Tay. "~-· D0f1DY: '?.eme!!!.ber the night the Board of Liquor Control burned dmm': I do not rerrember t~. at one. f'.::T' •• DOODY: Great big casks going up in t :·e air. It ~vas most spectacular. ~":R. :':!.C'BEP.TS : Y..'r.

Speaker, the reminiscences of the ~-'inister of Finance and myself aside, I ~voulrl like the ~~nister of Justice to confirm one point which I think is an important one and it relates to the situation ~vhether a lease is co!!'llllercial or resicential,and t~1at is that all ancient leases are deemed to be building: leases whether or not the term is used. ~T mv- the definition 2 (1) (

a) seems to say that an ancient lease is a building lea~e w-hether any words or any covenants are used or not and that contrast ~,ras

section 2 (1) (

h) v7l'.ich specifically mentions covenants to erect a building. It is an important point because the real difficulty has arisen~I arn told,in respect of goir g to arbitration under these old leases under the present law, the law which ~-;re purport to amend, the real difficulty is determining whether it is a buildinr, lease or not and that is a matte