Manitoba Hansard — 30 March 1976 (Sitting 57, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-57

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXIII No. 57 2:30p.m., Tuesday, March 30th, 1976. Third Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evana- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 p.m. Tuesday, March 30, 1976 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 1715 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the Gallery where we have 88 Selkirk Senior citizens. These senior citizens are under the leadership of Mr. Howard. This group is from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Selkirk the Attorney-General. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. The Honourable Member for Radisson. REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR . CLERK: Your Committee met for organization on Tuesday, March 30, 1976, and elected Mr. SHAFRANSKY as Chairman. Your Committee agreed that, for the remainder of the session, the quorum for all meetings of the Committee be set at seven members.

Your Committee received all information desired by any member of the Com mittee from the Chairman and General Manager, Mr. Gordon Holland, and members of the staff with respect to all matters pertaining to the Annual Report and the business of the Manitoba Telephone System. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members of the Cominittee to seek any information desired. Your Committee examined the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1975, and adopted the same as presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson, the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR . SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Labour. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Worker's Compensation Board for the year 1975. MR . SPEAKER: Any other statements or Ministerial reports? The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON. SIDNEY GREEN Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I would like remind honourable members that Law Amendments Committee will be meeting on Thursday at 10:00 o'clock. I do that now because there is no session tomorrow. MR . SPEAKER: Notices of motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . DONALD W. CRAIK (Leader of the Official Opposition)(Riel): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister.

In view of the fact that the Minister will be attending, I presume, the conference in Ottawa in the next few days in advance of his budget statement in this House, can he indicate to the House what the government's basic positions will be in attending the conference. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

1716 March 30, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I don't believe I can do that in the Question Period. There is a set agenda I think which has been made public and our position will be to attempt to protect Manitoba's interests. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the First Minister can indicate if the problem which he indicated to the press last Friday, not to the House but to the press, last Friday regarding the $20 or $25 million shortfall in the grants this year from the Federal Government, will be a prime target to rectify as the first step. MR . SCHREYER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the statement was made just as a matter of information not a matter of policy, and as such I didn't see any discourtesy to the House in not making a ministerial statement. There is in fact no policy issue involved as far as provincial policy is concerned. What is involved is a decision allegedly to be made soon, or to be implemented soon by the Government of Canada to unilaterally change the nature of calculation of the revenue guarantees, which were in turn given by the Government of Canada at the time of the implementation of the Benson tax changes.

Manitoba is not alone; I believe it's fair to say all provinces, certainly Ontario, Quebec, and Manitoba in that order do have reason to argue that there is a loss of revenue beyond what was contemplated up until now. And all other provinces do have a negative impact as well. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Attorney General, and I would like to ask the Attorney-General if there were any other allegations other than bribery which prompted the investigation into the Pilutik Affair as reported in today's Tribune. · MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, the inference to bribery was one that was drawn as a result of the questions and answers yesterday in connection with the extent of those that had been involved or not involved in respect to wiretapping. Insofar as whether or not there were any other charges, that is a matter that I do not feel would be proper for me to answer specifically. MR. GRAHAM: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I did not mention the word "charges" at all, I just asked, "Was there any other allegations other than bribery that prompted the investigation?" MR . PAWLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there were a number of allegations, some of which were, as I've indicated before, of varied types, some of which were criminal, and some certainly not ·of a criminal nature but simply pertaining to his conduct on the Bench. MR . GRAHAM: Of the seven wiretaps that were authorized dealing with this particular affair, and we know that one did involve the Public Safety Building, is the Minister now prepared to tell us where the other six were?

MR . PAWLEY: No. I think that would be quite improper under the provisions of the criminal code for me to identify that. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR . KEN DILLEN (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Renewable Resources. I want to know if it is in fact true that the Federal Minister of Fisheries and the Liberal Government in Ottawa disclaims any responsibility for inland fisheries and refuses to participate with the province in providing a transportation subsidy for depressed northern fishermen. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Renewable Resources. HON. HARVEY BOSTROM (Minister of Renewable Resources)(Rupertsland): Well, Mr. Chairman, the information is correct. The meeting we had on Friday with the Federal Minister of Fisheries, the answer we got to our proposal for a cost-sharing of a transportation subsidy for northern fishermen was a definite "no." The basis of his argument seemed to be that the Federal Government did not have any responsibility for inland fisheries.

When I pointed out to him that they had a great deal of subsidy for both coastal fisheries, his reaction to that was that the inland fisheries was not in as dire straights. I maintained, Mr. Speaker, that this was not the case, that in fact the inland fishermen are in a situation where their net incomes are declining faster than the

March 30, 1976 1717 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. BOSTROM cont'd) • • • . coastal fisheries, but I believe Mr. Speaker, the First Minister was correct when he said that the Liberal Government is a party of the East, the Government of the East. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. DILLEN: I must ask a question then of the First Minister, Sir. Is it possible that the province would make its portion of it that they would have had had they contributed with Ottawa, available to the fishermen? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I take note of the honourable member's question, and would want to take it as notice; there is important policy implication. On economic grounds there could be justification for partial support, being better than none at all, but I am frankly a little concerned about the implications of proceeding on that basis alone, given the fact, and there can be no doubt about it, Sir, that in terms of constitutional jurisdiction and responsibility, the Government of Canada does have con stitutional purview with respect to inland fisheries, of that there could be no doubt, none whatsoever. MR. DILLEN: Mr.

Speaker, a further question to the First Minister. Could that partial assistance take the form of at least flying the fish for the northern fishermen using the Government Air Service? MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, there is a matter of relative economics involved. We would want to have some analysis done and to pursue the most optimum course. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WIIBON (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Consumer Affairs. What is the cost of the new proposed Data Computer Centre going to be? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, last session there was a Supply Bill providing for $10 million in total Capital Supply, that included moneys for the new building and money transferred at that time last year from Public Works to the Supply Bill. MR. WILSON: A supplementary. Where is this new Government Data Centre going to be located? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I believe the decision for that location has been made and it is what I have long known as the old Coca Cola Building site. MR .

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs, or in charge of MHRC.

In view of the consideration being given by the City of Winnipeg to rezoning the area in the Willms and Kenaston area from commercial or industrial to residential, I wonder in view of the fact that the Minister has a significant amount of property in that area owned by MHRC across the street from it, which has been sold or leased to the CNR for a piggyback facility, whether some new initiative might be taken to hold off, or attempt to hold off that development until the decision is made by the City of Winnipeg on the area across the street from it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON.

SAUL A MILLER (Minister for Urban Affairs) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry I couldn't follow the member in his question. If he's asking should MHRC hold back on building residences in the area, then the answer is that there are no under ground services there. This is long range land banking and there's nothing in the fore seeable future for that area at all. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, for clarification, the holdback was an attempt on the part of the government to influence the CNR to hold back on an industrial development which is adjacent to and on property which they have taken from MHRC, and whether the government cannot prevail on them to reconsider in view of the fact that the city is con sidering a billion dollar project adjacent to it across the street. MR. MILLER: I'm sorry I didn't understand the member the first time. No, Mr. Speaker, the city has been dealing with CNR and the Federal Government on this.

The Federal Government as I indicated, served expropriation orders to acquire the land

1718 March 30, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. MILLER cont'd) • • . there as another landholder. . that I mentioned from MHRC, and frankly MHRC is simply There are probably a dozen landholders in the area; we're just one of the land owners. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I would possibly like to get . some sort of indication from the Minister that he will give some consideration as to whether or not the MHRC property will not be developed in association with the development across the way from it, which is now being actively considered by the city. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, the city has final authority over zoning and what ever zoning they place on the land in the general area and MHRC, we'll conform to that zoning; we always do. If it's residential we'll build homes. If it's to be deemed not residential then probably MHRC in time will have to divest itself of the land. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation and Cultural Affairs, and it relates to that grand old historical building on Main Street, the Empire Hotel.

I wonder can the Minister advise the House if he's come to any agreement with Great West Life on the future plans or the devel opment of that building. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield): Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is an agreement arrived at between Parks (Canada) The Historical Sites, Manitoba Division, and Great West Life for a period of ninety days where a study is being conducted by all three parties concerned, and by that time certain recommendations will be made. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I woiJl:\er if the Honourable Minister could advise the House if he has signified his intention of) hc-iJ:COvince purchasing the building if necessary, to keep it for historical purpds<?s. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, that decision would certainly be premature at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honour able the Minister responsible for Renewable Resources.

In view of his answers and the fact that he came away empty handed from his last meeting with the federal authorities, I wonder if he might inform the House if there were conclusions, or satisfactory con clusions to other business that he might have discussed with the federal officials that would be of value to the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Under his Estimates. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs.

Can the Minister tell this House today whether the Emergency Measures Organization has contacted the Wheat Board in regard to the removal of grain from areas expected to be flooded this spring. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the member asked the question yesterday, and I do have some information for him. EMO and through the Department of Agricul ture has been in touch with the Pool Elevators and the Wheat Board. Thirty cars are being moved in today into the member's area.

There is a meeting for the officials set up for some time tomorrow, tomorrow morning I believe, with the Municipal officials at Gretna, and the RM of Rhineland. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR . WILSON: ••. the Minister responsible for Autopac. What is the esti mated cost of another new proposed government Autopac building? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. BILLIE URUSKI (Minister for Manitob a Public Insurance Corporation) (St. George): Mr. Speaker, I don't have the Estimates because the building is under the aegis of the Department of Public Works. MR.

WILSON: Would it be safe to say that it would be close to the $10 million, and where will it be located?

March 30, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: Order, Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. ORDERS OF THE DAY BILL NO. 23 - THE PESTICIDES AND FERTILIZERS CONTROL ACT 1719 MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if we would proceed with the Bill No. 23. MR . SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, the introduction of this particular bill leaves some of us on this side of the House somewhat perplexed as to what the real intentions of the Minister of Agriculture are.

Of course, Sir, we have long since stopped wondering just what the real intentions of the Minister of Agriculture is, because he has demonstrated on more than one occasion just what he has in mind and obviously he's not going to be satisfied unless he has the agricultural industry under his complete domination, where not even a move is going to be made by a farmer unless he gets the full consent of the Minister, and I presume it's going to have to be written consent.

So what the Minister is doing with this particular piece of legislation, is simply amending the Act that was passed in 1963, The Pesticides Control Act. If the Minister had brought in

an Act to amend that particular piece of legislation, it would have served the same purpose. As a matter of fact it would have been a much shorter piece of legislation. But I suppose that the Minister feels that compulsion to have to introduce legislation, and he wants to take the credit, or whatever he chooses to call it, for introducing a new piece of legislation. Mr. Speaker, it is not new, except in some rather interesting respects.

One tries to figure out just the reason why the Minister wants to include fertilizer in that list of agricultural products that has to be brought under his control, and I think that the Member for Rock Lake put his finger on it the other day when he mentioned the subject of whey. The Minister wants to be sure that not a single bit of that whey is spread on the farms as a form of fertilizer. He wants to make sure that he can divert it all to his plant at Selkirk, and that seems to be the only reason I can suggest that he would want to introduce legislation controlling the use and the spreading of fertilizer.

Through the debate on the Clean Environment Act, which is in some respects related to this particular piece of legislation, mention has been made of the abuse of pesticides and those chemicals that are designed to control insects, and I suppose that the Minister has taken the trouble to read the Rachel Carson's book, "The Silent Spring" from which most of the environmental furor has been created.

I think one thing that might be mentioned insofar as that particular book is concerned and that is, nowhere in her book, and nowhere since, has there been any suggestion or any evidence to suggest that farmers in the application of pesticides or herbicides or whatever have been abusing the use of those chemic;Jls, and there's a very good reason for it. Those chemicals are very expensive and no farmer in his right mind is going to apply a double dose of a pesticide if it's going to cost him twice as much to do so, if half the amount will do.

I think you'll find that farmers to a large extent are very careful about following the instructions, and in fact if they err at all they will probably err on the side of penny pinching rather than extravagance. The evidence that has been presented, and particularly in the United States with respect to the application of chemicals for controlling of insects, has been that the people who have created the abuse have been the governments. Governments, you know, we have found out, Sir, have no concern about cost and they will just as soon throw two gallons in an application as they would one gallon. Who cares?

The taxpayer's going to pay for it. That's not the case with the farmer. He pays for it out of his own pocket and so therefore he's mighty careful about how he uses it. Why then is it neces sary to license a farmer to spray for his neighbour is more than I can comprehend. The Minister mentioned in his remarks that ..• he said, "I think that too often we have run into problems in the past because of the lack of proper regularity control where people who are not knowledgeable in the handling of chemicals often cause prob lems, not only to themselves but to neighbouring communities, neighbouring farms,

172 0 March 30, 1976 BILL 23 (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) ••••• individuals, would certainly ••• it's not the best way to handle the application of these products. Well, Mr. Speaker, I've done quite a bit of spraying myself on the farm, and I know the damages and the problems that can be created if some of the spray moves over to a neighbour's farm, or to a neighbour's garden in particular, and I don't think there's a single farmer that malic iously or deliberately would attempt to spray if he knew it was going to cause a prob lem for his neighbour.

As a matter of fact, I have delayed spraying for days in order to get the proper wind direction in order to ensure that it would not cause any damage to a neighbour's farm, and I think that's quite true of most farmers who do spraying.

So if, if the Minister wants to control any portion of this industry, then I suspect that he can very rightfully suggest that the commercial applicators, and particularly those who apply it by aeroplane should have to acquire a license because the applications are far more intense and can cause a great deal more harm than an ordinary farm sprayer and with the farmer who is knowledgeable in the application of sprays, but it just escapes me the reason why the Minister wants to control those who would apply fertilizer aswell. Fertilizer as well as herbicides are not dangerous to either insects or to humans.

And why he has to exercise his great caution in the application of fertilizers and herbicides is just a little bit more than I can understand. The Minister, I think reveals himself as one that wants control for the sake of control rather than control for the sake of insuring the safety of people in this country. I can't think of anything that his kind of a control is going to do that's going to help the situation or improve it from what it is at the present time.

So although we have no objections to the Minister ensuring that those who are going to be handling dangerous pesticides those who are going to be responsible for selling those pesticides, and the commercial applicators who will be spraying them if he feels that they must have some measure of control, then we have no objection to that. But why it should extend to the application of fertilizers and herbicides is just a little bit beyond me. It looks to me, it's traditional of the Minister, it's characteristic of the Minister to want control merely for the sake of control itself.

And this, the amend ments, and I choose to suggest that this is not a bill to introduce a new Act, it's simply amendments to an existing statute, is nothing more than an extension of controls in areas that the Minister in my opinion has no business to exercise controls, has no need to exercise controls, and even if the bill does pass, which I suspect it will, and if provisions are going to be implemented, it will do nothing that isn't already being done.

It's been my experience as I said earlier that if you're paying for the cost of applying a fertilizer, a chemical or a herbicide of any kind you make sure that you follow the instructions. If there are abuses then the abuses are treated by two other groups of people. First of all, governments, who have no real concern about costs because the taxpayer picks up the tab; and secondly, another group of people who to a large extent do not live on the farms but live in the cities and the towns. I class my self now among that group.

If I want to get rid of an insect or a weed, I get a little spray can and I spray twice as much as I have to because it doesn't cost that much, but if I had to spray 240 acres or 600 or 1000 acres, I would be a lot more careful about how much I used. And if there are dangers associated with the use of chemicals, I think the dangers are far greater in the cities and in the towns than they are on the farms. The Minister has obviously overlooked that danger and chose to centre his attention on a group of people who in my opinion are innocent of any wrongdoing or any abuse.

But that, Sir, is not uncharacteristic of the Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Riel, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

There will be a meeting in Room 254 and the Minister for Northern Affairs will be dealing with •.• MOTION presented.

March 30, 1976 1721 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE- �ISH TRANS PORTATION OF NORTHERN FISHERMEN MR . DILLEN: I'm attempting to contain my anger and frustration when I move on this matter of a personal grievance in our dealings with the Federal Government with regard to the attempts to subsidize the transportation of fish for the benefit of northern fishermen. I want at this time, and for the benefit of the record to read from the British North America Act,

Section 91.

"It shall be lawful for the Queen by and with the advice and consent of the Senate and House of Commons to make laws for the peace, order and good government of Canada in relation to all matters not coming within the class or subject by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures of the province and for greater certainty and so as to not restrict the generality of the foregoing, the terms of this section, it is hereby declared that notwithstanding anything in this Act the exclusive legislative authority of the Parlimament of Canada extends to all matters coming within the classes of subjects next hereina fter enumerated.

" I'll not go into detail on all of the items enumerated in this act, Mr. Speaker, but I want specifically to quote from, first of all, No. 24 "where it is the exclusive jurisdiction for the Federal Government for Indians and lands reserved for the Indians. " And under

Section 12 of this very same Act,

Section 91, "is the sole and exclusive responsibility of the Federal Government for seacoast and inland fisheries." Now to have this very same Minister who is responsible for this Act to come here to the Province of Manitoba and to tell us that he has no responsibility for inland fishermen is the height of ignorance for anybody in that department. We didn't ask him to accept full and total responsibility; we have recognized that we have responsibilities also for the people of this province. We agreed that whatever the federal portion was in providing this subsidy, tha t we would put up an equivalent share.

Surely to goodness for the benefit of the people of this province the time has come when we seriously consider the continuation of these kinds of programs with this Federal Government, because it never fails, it never fails that if you're going to put ice you'll get an agreement after the ice is gone. If you want to move equipment on a cost shared arrangement into some area over open water or whatever, they'll wait until the ice is formed. It never fails.

There is a complete and absolute ignorance on the part of the Federal Government and many people, even in this Legislature, on the conditions that exist in northern Manitoba, and that if you don't get decisions when they are required that you're going to lose twelve months because you got to wait until the following year. And everybody knows that we're working on the basis of budgetary constraints in that you have to work everything into a twelve month period, and if you don't get it done in that period of time it won't be done for another year.

The fishermen at the moment are waiting in those areas where ice is not already put up for a decision as to whether or not it will be economically viable for them to go fishing. If they don't have the subsidy for their transportation, then they can't possibly make a dollar going fishing. The figures are conclusive that to go out on the lakes today you're going to lose money. If they can't get the ice put up, and there's no point in putting up ice without the subsidy, but now we're caught in a bind if we have to go back into the Federal Government and say, live up to your commitments under this Act.

And by the time we work out the mechanism for going back to them and say, look, live up to your commitments, the ice is going to be gone and there'll be no fishing again this year, and the people who are not fishing have no other means of support but the continuation of their dependency upon social assistance. Well, you know, the Member from Minnedosa says, a half a million dollars and do it alone. But you know this Act is a sacred Act for Canadians and if we start accepting further responsibility by the provinces there'll be no end to the amount of responsibility that we'll have to accept.

The Government of Canada is attempting by all means possible to relieve itself of its responsibility to people in the provinces and to foist more responsibility onto provincial legislatures in respect to responsibilities. You know it isn't funny but it's a known fact that the east coast fishermen this year are going to receive somewhere in the order of $86 million in federal subsidy. It wouldn't be so bad if there was some sense to what is happening in east coast fisheries. You know, it isn't bad enough that we have fleets from every foreign country operating off the east

1722 March 30, 1976 GRIEVANCE - FISH TRANSPORTATION OF NORTHERN FISHERMAN (MR. DILLEN cont'd) •••.• coast shores, but they're operating in such a way so as to scrape the entire ocean bottom clean of every living creature in the ocean bottom. What do the east coast fishermen say? You know, why do they not say, "Tell them to go further out, move him off the banks of Canada, keep them a little further out so that we can retain our old ways of collecting fish.

" No, they said, "Give us more money so that we can put in the same kind of equipment and we can go out and scrape the ocean bottom just as clean as everybody else did. " And as a result of that, we have the worst depletion of fish stocks in the east coast of Canada in its history. Where is that dependency upon fish and that produce going to shift to? It's going to shift to inland fisheries because at the present level if fishing continues • • .

If the present level of fishing continues on the east coast, we're going to be in a situation where fishing on the east coast is going to have to be closed altogether if the present high density fishing continues. And even if they continue at its present pace it's going to take eight to ten years for the level of the stocks from the east coast to come back to where it was 10 or 15 years ago. And what are we dealing with? We're dealing with a Federal Government that will not live up to its responsibilities to its people. We get nothing but promises in the north country from the Federal Government.

If it isn't in fishing, it's in roads, it's in communica tions, it's in every one of their responsibilities. If you take the context of federal money being taken out of the north and the amount that is being put back in, it is like a speck on the top of my desk in comparison to the amount of money that is taken out. And the Provincial Government in terms of cost-sharing with the Federal Government makes up only a speck in the total provincial expenditures in northern Manitoba. What this Provincial Government takes out at northern Manitoba it at least tries to put as much back in.

But the Federal Government for every nickel they take out of the north whether it's any way at all, puts precious little back in. And that's what we got to live with in the north. And we've got to live with the indecisions of the same Federal Government when it comes to assisting the people up there who they are responsible for. You know that many of our people in northern Manitoba are Treaty Indians and for the Federal Government to deny that they have any responsibility for those people is absolute crap. Here we have, we have completely exhausted our efforts for the fishermen in northern Manitoba.

Our first attempt at getting some kind of subsidy for northern Manitoba fishermen was through the Northland DREE Agreement. We were denied that. Another federal agency that tells us, no, that doesn't come under our parameters. Our next step was to make a personal appeal to the Minister responsible for Indian Affairs. Again we were denied. And here again we make another request to the Federal Minister of Fisheries and he again denies us. What are our people going to do in the north if they have this kind of crap coming out of the Federal Government?

When are we going to smarten up in this province and tell the Federal Government, for God's sake live up to your responsibilities. --(Interjection)-- My friends on this side of the House have at least given me a little bit of prompting. You know it's something for the �ple on this side of the House to suggest that there has always been a Liberal Government in Ottawa. But I can tell you that when the Conservatives were in power in ottawa, it was no better then than it is now. As a matter of fact it was worse.

And not only that they've got a Federal Member of Parliament in Churchill at the moment, and you may as well have nothing because he's never done any thing for people in that northern part of the province. He has never done a damn thing! --(Interjections)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. DILLEN: Mr.

Speaker, it should be perfectly clear to everybody in this House, and I hope to the people in ottawa regardless of what party they belong to, that this Federal Govern ment has a responsibility and to come to Manitoba and deny that they have this responsibility when it's clearly written in this Act, is just something that this Legislature collectively should advise Ottawa to live up to their commitment. QUEST ION put and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair for Northern Affairs and the Honourable Member for St.

Vital in the Chair for Corrections and Rehabilitation.

March 30, 1976 1723 SUPPLY - DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAJRMAN: I would refer members to Page 45 of their Estimate Book. Resolution 97. General Administration (1)(a). Minister's Compensation. The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. RONALD McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affairs) (The Pas): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I again welcome the oppor1unity to bring the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs before the Legislature.

Hopefully, I'll be able to impart some information to members and people generally about what this department is attempting to accomplish within the context of the Provincial Government as a whole in the northern part of our province. Members will find the proposed expenditures of Northern Affairs on Pages 45 and 46 of the Estimates Book. You will notice that there has been for the first time in a number of years a reduction in the current expenditures of the department. The figure for this fiscal year being 17, 321, 700 and the figure for the upcoming 1976-77 year, 16, 689, 500 .

The reduction comes most in the area of Special Programs with most branches having an increase only to meet the increased costs because of inflation. Some of these special program funds, a small part are in the resource Estimates or the Estimates of the Department of Renewable Resources and Transportation, so basically the Department of Northern Affairs is holding to a program level similar to last year's pro gram level. You will note if you have last year's Estimate Book that Air Division has been transferred from Northern Affairs to Renewable Resources.

You will also note 1hat this year we are showing more clearly the cost recoveries that we anticipate from the Federal Government rmder the Northlands and the Special ARDA Agreement. For the new members, Mr. Chairman, I might just briefly state the history of the department. In 1966, the original Northern Affairs Act was introduced providing for a Commission of Northern Affairs and giving municipal responsibility for certain rural and remote communities.

Basically it allowed for the appointment of a commissioner who held another Cabinet post and it put remote communities in some of the very poor areas in the more northerly rural LGDs, or RMs rmder his municipal responsibility. Basically it allowed a senior civil servant to become the Colonial Governor for these communities. During that early period the Deputy Commissioner did some construction work on community buildings, docks, bridges and later air strips.

In 1970 amendments were introduced to the Act giving more authority to local community advisory committees and considerable work has been done to attempt to set up local government. Also the former community development

section of Health and Social Development that operated in Northern Manitoba was transferred to the Commis sioner of Northern Affairs. This change in direction was initiated when the present Minister of Mines was Commissioner. Also about that time the first native person was brought into a senior position within Northern Affairs. In 1972 the first full-time Commissioner of Northern Affairs was appointed and a manpower development aspect was added to the responsibility.

Later in 1972 Northern Affairs was made into a full department with the following responsibilities: municipal government for remote areas; community development; winter roads; airport construc tion maintenance; community infrastructure; Manpower placement and training and the Manitoba Government Air Division. In 1974, the Northern Affairs Act was again changed to further increase the authority and responsibility of municipal governments in remote northern areas. What are some of the present goals of the Department of Northern Affairs? Very briefly, Mr.

Chairman, one is to increase and improve local democratic decision making and increase local government's authority and responsibility; another is to ensure that a basic level of services is available to those communities rmder our jurisdiction; a third is to improve the transportation system to remote areas through airports, winter roads and primitive all-weather roads; the fourth is to ensure that northern residents have access to northern employment; the fifth is to assist the communities with local economic development, and finally to bring these about in the most effective way possible.

All of the things I mention involve developing the human resources in northern Manitoba for this is our most neglected but most valuable resource.

1724 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY -N ORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR� McBRYDE cont'

d) Why then, Mr. Chairman, is the development of local self-government important? Why don't we just leave the system as it was and maintain a colonial or beneficial type dictatorship role that has existed for remote communities in the past? Some of the reasons for not doing this very briefly are that, if you use the old approach local people are not given the opportunity to develop, and also poor decisions are made because they are made from people who are away from the actual situation; they are made by people who are not directly affected by those decisions.

Also, proper priorities are not set because the local people are not involved in setting them. Proper priorities have to be set because there is a limited budget or limited resources available to these local com mrmities.

Also the people in the remote communities then do not learn, they do not get the opportunity to rmderstand how things happen, or what makes things happen; local people do not develop the skills and ability that they do rmder a program of local self government; also dependency rmder the old system is increased rather than decreased; and finally a very practical point, the local representatives being responsible for their budget make sure that local payment of taxes are made, But, Mr.

Chairman, there are a number of problems involved when you attempt to for the first time, and I assume these problems were experienced in southern Manitoba and other areas of Canada or throughout the world where democratic local government has been initiated. Some of the problems that develop are that things don't get done quite as fast, at least in the initial stages of the development of local government. It also takes more staff, at least initially, to provide information and to assist people to develop skills, than was required when external administration or colonial administrative system was in place.

The other disadvantage is that mistakes are made locally and can be more easily seen. You can't hide the mistakes within an overall government appropriation. Some times, Mr. Speaker, when people are learning, people take money, people misuse the authority or responsibility they are given. The other thing that happens as you move towards local decision-making is that certain things happen that cause the central adminis trative officials to get quite upset with what is taking place.

It's the same I guess when you're moving into a new area or an area that hasn't been dealt with before, there are always problems that are caused because it's a new area. The provision of employment opportunities and assistance with economic develop ment go hand in hand with the increasing of municipal responsibilities. In order to assist people to develop, to grow, and to realize their potentials there must be opportunities, there must be opportunities for earning a living.

Some of the commrmi ties are not fully viable but we, the outsiders, have never succeeded in successfully relocating a community or moving a community because it has not been viable. So I would like to just repeat some of the things I have said on a number of occasions in this House in terms of some of the things that must happen in the remote communities of Manitoba. We must develop the economic systems in those communities by as much as possible developing the existing local resources. That is to develop the traditional industries in those communities.

And, of course, the traditional industry in the remote areas have been the trapping and then the fishing. And as the Member for Thompson has outlined to us today there are serious problems in the fishing; there are also a number of problems in the trapping. We as a provincial government, hopefully with assistance from the federal authorities in meeting their responsibilities have to be able to assist and make as reasonable as possible, provide as many employment oppor tunities as possible for people who are involved in the fishing and trapping industry.

Secondly, we must develop other existing local resources, and these are such things as forestry, as tourism, as handicrafts, those things that are existing in the com mrmi ties now that can be utilized for the economic benefit of the people in those com munities. The Department of Northern Affairs in the first instance I mentioned is involved in the fishing and trapping through what's called the Special ARDA 3D Program although the main responsibility for the overall fishing and trapping rests with the Department of Renewable Resources.

March 30, 1976 1725 SUPPLY -N ORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont1d) In the development of other local resources the Department of Northern Affairs is involved beca],!Se our extension workers are the first contact usually with communities and community members who wish to proceed with economic development, and our northern manpower corps provides assistance in training to get these local development projects off the ground. A third thing we need to do is make sure that the externally imposed projects provide a maximum amount of local employment.

That is, when th e Province of Manitoba or the Federal Government is building a school in a community, building a nursing station, putting in a road, putting in winter roads, we have to make sure that the local people have the opportunity to take advantage of that employment. The Department of Northern Affairs and every department of government, and in some cases private industry, must be involved in this aspect. Our department, we're involved through the Manpower

section of the department and through our engineering services, which does the winter roads and major infrastructure projects in communities. We must ensure that as much as possible we use local people for that type of employment. There also must be opportunity for other local employment, and that is, don't bring in so many outside people to run th e store; or try and find ways to help the com munity run their own store.

To make sure that teachers are not all southern imported teachers but in fact people in remote communities are trained with that kind of profes sional training so that they can fill jobs in their own area. We must ensure such people as janitors and nurses, and especially the govern ment departments that are delivery service in these communities are staffed to the fullest extent possibly by people from those communities or from the northern area.

We must also give assistance to those individuals within the remote communities who wish to relocate to other areas of higher employment, to other areas where there is more economic activity so that they can have an opportunity for a decent job. This by itself will not solve the problem but in conjunction with the other kinds of programs I've been talking about will assist a number of people to take advantage of employment opportunities. The Department of Northern Affairs is involved in this directly through the Tawow Program at Leaf Rapids and with a similar relocation program in the community of Thompson.

We're also negotiating with the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting at Flin Flon to assist them with a program to help people relocate from remote areas into the urban or industrial centres in northern Manitoba. The other thing we must do is to assist remote communities to develop some other industries that may be viable or may be marginally viable. And we have done this to a limited extent with such things as the log machine operation we now have in place at Jenpeg; in conjunction with the Federal Government in the northern area of the Interlake with a garment business.

There's another industry that was established a con siderable time ago in assisting to develop parks equipment. And there are a number of other areas that we must explore to find possible other opportunities for remote areas that would be viable economic development activities or at least viable when you measure against social costs of welfare and other social costs that the province has to bear.

This is a whole combination of steps that I'm trying to outline that must be taken together in a direction which the province as a whole in all departments, and hopefully the Federal Government, and hopefully private industry, can move together to attempt to deal with the kind of serious problem we are facing. And in doing this, Mr.

Chairman, in trying to make these things fit together, in trying to provide the opportunities, I, and I don't think this government has any philosophical hang-ups, we are willing to use what ever type of method will work: We have used Communities Economic Development Fund, we've used Co-ops; we have supported and given grants to private individuals or private enterprise; we have used non-profit companies, whichever vehicle which seems to meet the circumstances which offers an opportunity for the economic development and employ ment opportunities for remote communities. And, Mr.

Chairman, I don't care which method is used as long as we look at all the options open to us and try and find the best one in conjunction with the community that meets their needs and is going to cause economic development in their particular area.

1726 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'

d) To help bring· about the development of people in the north other services of course are necessary, both in connection with local government and economic development and employment opportunities. There are such basic necessities as a clean water supply system, as a decent level of housing, there's recreational facilities, and such needs as transportation facilities, such as airstrips, winter roads, bridges, docks, the type of things that by themselves don't necessarily develop a community, but without which it is difficult to develop a community.

These things must all be carried out in such a way that local people are involved in these decisions and that they get the benefit from the employment and the economic development. I suppose, Mr. Chairman, one of the most frustrating things to try to do in the north is to assist in the economic development and employment development. I think the reason why it's frustrating is not because there's not lots happening but because there's so much more needs to happen if we are to meet the serious problems.

I feel that ten times more has been accomplished by this government than was accomplished by the Conservative government, but ten times more needs to be done than what we are able to do. One of the real serious problems is the number of people available for the labour force; the number of people requiring employment opportunities in northern Manitoba is increasing at such a dramatic rate.

So it's quite satisfying for those of us from the north to see we've created 20 jobs at Moose Lake in logging, or created 12 jobs at Easterville for fence posts, or that now the Community of Bloodvein has full employment, at least in the immediate foreseeable future. --(Interjection)--A number of projects have gone forward, a number of small projects, including one at Cormorant, but the distance we have to go is so great.

I suppose. the frustration that comes in, and maybe we wit nessed a bit of it today from the Member for Thompson, and the frustration that comes to those of us from the north, is the feeling we get when we travel into the communities and we see people that could be productive, that would like to be productive, but that are not productive. The other day the Member for River Heights mentioned that he had gone into the Main Street area of Winnipeg and he became concerned that certain thingB have to be done.

Well those of us that travel into the remote communities up north become a little bit more radical I think whenever we go up there and see the problems that have to be faced. It's very difficult to go into a community and see some of the housing situations that people have to live in and to know that probably in the upcoming year one of those houses is going to burn down with people in it, and to sort of look around and figure out, well which one is it going to be this year. I can recall, Mr.

Speaker, going into a small log cabin where there was a pot-bellied stove supported by tobacco tins - I guess so the pipe was long enough to reach up to the ceiling - and a small child was riding around it with a tricycle. All he needed to do was hit one tobacco tin and that roaring fire would have been spilled all over the house with loss of life for a serious consequence.

It's very frustrating when we see somebody who has been employed up north and then we go back the next week and we see that person out in the pub or out drunk, and for some reason something has happened to the employment, something has happened on the job that caused him to leave that employment.

It's very frustrating for us, and very saddening when we hear that because there was the inability from a remote community to communicate to medical authorities or to communicate with the patient air transportation system that a child has died in the community, just because we were not able to get in there because of the communications to remove someone from the community to hospital facilities.

We've all seen it again and again the social problems that are caused because of the poverty and because of the unemployment, that are caused because in some areas of northern Manitoba, in some communities of northern Manitoba, some people have given up, they've just said, it's not worth it, that we're not going to get anywhere, and they've basically given up on life. And that's a pretty sad and pretty frustrating thing to see,

March 30, 19 76 1727 SUPPLY -N ORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYD E cont'd) • • • • • and it does make one a little bit more radical and a little bit more anxious to get on with doing som ething. In our experience we find that people usually take advantage of any employment if it is given to them, but it depends also on how the opportunity is provided and what the opportunity is. I suppose in the broader context, Mr. Chairman, I might add that the generosity of a society towards it's less fo rtunate members is probably directly related to the level of affl uence and security that a society enjoys.

That might be perhaps a bit unfa ir, but it's not without some concern that this department observes which programs , at all levels of government, receive the harshest treatment when spending cuts are inevitable. We are it seems better equipped in our society to deal with the concept of payment for unemploy ment than with the con,cept of subsidized employment, or, as the Member for Churchill would say, ''We are more likely to give welfare to people than we are to give welfare to projects." He would turn around and say it's time we started giving some welfare to projects and stop giving welfare to people.

It seems that it's easier in the government system as a whole, or in any society as a whole, to provide education for the upcoming regular work fo rce than to deal with the education of our structurally unemployed. Our society seems to be better equipped in times of economic restraint to return to the traditional methods of government delivery than to examine the possibilities that there may be better and more effective ways of solving prob lems.

In times of economic restraint it seems that we as individuals, or groups of individuals, or even as a society have a great temptation, I'm sorry to say, to adopt a more conservative or a very conservative approach. The trouble is the problems we face in the north are not such that conservative attention will put them into a holding pattern until we are once again in a position to apply innovative and at least superficially more expensive solutions.

Economic restraint does not influence except in negative terms the basic manpower problems that the north fa ces with expanding population and declining opportunities, so that a cautious approach cannot even buy time and could result in lost opportunities to resolve problems that may be barely within our grasp now and may not one or two or three or five years from now, we may not be able to solve.

There is no doubt that there are those among us who feel that there is altogether too much attention and resources devoted to solving the economic ills of the north, and one cannot hope that the philosophy is more a result of distance and lack of knowledge than of callousness. I find it hard to believe that Canadians , and particularly Manitobans, regardless of political persuasion are that insensitive to the problems of their fellow Manitobans. For example, Mr.

Chairman, in a community in southern Manitoba of say 3, 000 people - and I'm sure members can think of a community in their area - if such a com munity had suffered an economic crisis so that 70 percent or even 75 percent of its labour force was unemployed, and in that same community the welfare payments had risen to more than a million dollars annually, I suggest that there would not be much criticism of an emergency pro gram of government to assist that community, although certainly if the government failed to take any action it would be criticized. But, Mr.

Chairman, that is the type of situation we are faced with in a number of remote communities in northern Manitoba. What we need right now is 30 emergency programs to deal with the serious unemployment problem and to assist people to get off of the welf are system and into a productive employment situation. Northern Affairs did not ask this year for any real additional resources because of the economic restraints.

We recognize however that attempts to solve an es calating problem with fixed resources requires not only the skillful use of such resources, but also the development of an understanding by government and the taxpayer alike, that in people programming, shifts , and the economic climate, which involve restraint in public spending, do not necessarily result in saving in tax dollars . This is particularly true if the econom ic restraint affects the ability of agencies to change government spending pat terms from subsistence to employment.

In other words , less job creation or job place ment opportunities will reduce the level of preventative spending, but cannot help but increase the level of subsistence or transfer payment spending such as Unemployment

1728 March 30, 1976 SUPP LY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• Insurance and Welfare, Therefore it is extremely important that those who cry for less government spending not only thoroughly understand the effects of a general cut in government spending but are also aware of the relationship between economic restraint and the ability of agencies to produce a reduction in certain kinds of fixed government expenditures.

We can now calculate for example - and I'll use my honourable colleague from Chu rchill - that the value of the public sector, the value for the people of Manitoba for a job created in Churchill and filled with an otherwise unemployed person is approximately $9, 000 per year, plus the value of the production that he's involved in. The reverse of course is that the loss of one job in Churchill does not only mean the loss of that va1ue of production but it means an increase in public sector expenditure as represented by subsistence payments and the publi c sector loss in tax revenues .

That is, if a person who is unemployed is able to be employed in Churchill there is about $9, 000 less other payments plus the tax payment that that person makes. This is perhaps a round about way of saying that economic restraint will have adilatorius effect on manpower and employmen t development programming that goes far beyond the problem of fixed program expenditures, Now that I've outlined some of the goals and the policies some of the direction and some of the problems , I would like to give some indi cation of the various branches in their work towards the achievement of these goals. Mr.

Chairman, how much time do I have? MR. CHAIRMAN: • • • 4:15. MR. McBRYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will go into the various branches briefly in the order that they appear in your budget book, so if you wanted to glance at pages 45 and 46, you could probably follow me quite easily. The first

section is the Planning and Policy Development. The Planning and Policy Branch is both planning and is involved in program delivery. The director of this branch is Mr. Brian Hill. The Planning and Policy Development Division provides for necessary planning and research support, co=unity and subdivision planning, negotiation and administration of the Western or Manitoba Northlands Agreement, and policy level co ordination of government activities in the north.

This past year the division, members of the Planning Secretariat staff, along with many staff members from other departments and agencies , have been heavily involved in the development of a comprehensive develop ment strategy for Northern Manitoba. If accepted, this strategy will serve as a frame work within which government activities in the north can become even more co-ordinated in the pursuit of provincial objectives , and co=unities can make their decisions based on 1he necessary information and backup material that will be made available to them.

It is also in general form the framework within which the long-term Northlands Agreemen t will be negotiated with the Government of Canada. The Co=unities Economic Development Service established on a test basis almost two years ago as a means of drawing co=unity people into planning the future of their co=unity and supporting them has been transferred from the Planning

Section to the Northern Manpower Corps to be phased in with their regular operations. The Planning people also report progress has continued at a good rate in the Co=unity Base Mapping Program, with at least 95 percent of this year's goals being met. Another 19 co=uni ties will be finished during the upcoming fiscal year. Comprehensive townsite lands were completed or initiated in six northern co=unities last year, Wabowden, Duck Bay, Camperville , Manigotagan, Norway House, and South Indian Lake. The program this year will be four co=unities.

The Co=unity Planning Service continues to provide physical planning services to co=unities, government departments and agencies, and in support of the Rural and Native Housing Program. Some 14 subdivisions and 263 lots were com pleted last year. This particular

section of the branch under the Northlands Agreement also has a Sewage Research Project. Although exceptionally heavy rains and winds in the lagoon area all but wiped out the growing season for the Aquatic Vegetation Project, the rest of the Waste Management Project continued to test new organic methods of waste disposal. By fall the experimental lagoon cells had been secured and a full season of data is expected this su=er. The objective is to find effective natural methods of waste manage ment in the north, methods which are more labour intensive, more efficient and less expensive.

March 30, 1976 1729 SUPP LY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. McBRYDE cont'

d) The next item, Mr. Chairman, is the Administrative Branch . As I mentioned to members last year, the department has undertaken special efforts to increase the number of northern and native people employed by the department. The Administrative Branch where the personnel function is lodged along with a Special Advisory Committee to myself, and in conjunction with all the various branches of the Department of Northern Affairs , have developed specific plans and course of actioi1 to increase the number of native people employed by the department.

An Outreach Recruitment Prog ram has been initiated to make native people more aware of employment opportunities in the department and how and where their skills and knowledge will be useful, and also a native personnel officer has been hired. In order to improve the effectiveness of the department, a departmental training program is now under way, using an organizational devel opment approach to staff training. Also a number of administrative improvements have taken place, such as decentralization of voucher accounting, improved internal controls in auditing and regular systems' revue .

Audits of the community councils and the communities have been completed and the com munities and staff working with communities have been directly involved in so remedial action can be taken with their problems . In general the community records are shaping up, but there is still often lack of basic bookkeeping skills and knowledge of local govern ment administration. In the area of taxation, the department through Municipal Affairs are having all asses sments brought up to date.

As councils assume more responsibility, tax collected compared with taxes levied are improving, local councils are not letting their people avoid their tax obligations. This year the department has added a full time lawyer for the pur pose of assist ing communities and staff in the administration of local government and the organization of community economic development. The head of the Administration Branch is Mr. Barry Bernhard. Special Pro gram

Section is another developmental instrument within the department and is headed up by Mr. Merv McKay. This is a joint program with Canada to assist in the economic development and social adjustment of people who have little or no regular employment opportunities, especially individuals of Indian ancestry. There are in ess ence under this program two kinds of projects , one related to improving the capacity of people to earn better returns from primary production such as fishing and trapping, and the other designed to enable native people to establish a business or earn an income from commercial ventures.

Manitoba takes the main responsibility for the former and the Department of Regional Economic Expansion the latter. The province also arranges for training as a part of commercial projec ts. The program commenced in 1971 and a new agreement was signed for a two-year period ending March 1977. The consultation process with various government agencies and native organiza tions is being carried out during the current fiscal year '76 - '77 to project the future program needs . Since inception assistance has been provided to 1, 231 fishermen in 55 groups and to 1, 373 trappers in 58 groups.

Training by Manitoba has been given for 219 jobs in 28 different ventures. In general, Manitoba would expect 50 percent of the cost in the primary producer category to be met by Canada, but this of course is increased depending on the number of treaty Indians involved; the Federal Governme nt provides 100 percent of the assistance to treaty Indians. The Northeast Manitoba Social and Ec onomic Development initiative or Project Pimadjitowin is funded under the Manitoba Northlands Agreement and administered by a Special Pr ograms Branch.

The project directly involves 22 communities with Shamattawa on the northeast and Fort Alexander on the south. The population of the area is approximately 10, 000 persons with the majority having trea ty status. The people of the area in both federal and provincial agencies are being involved in the organization and implementation of this project. The Management Committee of this proj ect is made up of senior government officials and leaders of the native organiza tions who advise on policy direction and facilitate the implementation of development pro posals as they are brought forward .

The Advisory Committee made up of elected com munity leaders and repres entatives from native organizations operates as a steering

17 30 March 30, 1976 SUPPL Y - NORTHERN AFFAmB (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) • • • • • committee to advise on the overall direction of the project. A working committee provides technical and professional expertise to assist communities to plan and prepare development projects. The project has been oragnized and consultation investigation and implementation is being carried out at this time. A number of ideas for long-term development projects have emerged from the community level. Many projects have reached the stage of proposals to the relevant government agencies and some have been accepted and implemented.

Some communities will con tinue on a project to project basis, some are developing and others have developed com prehensive plans which will come together in overall development strategy for their com munity or their region. The next item, Mr. Chairman, is the Engineering Services and Construction Division. Within this division are the Administration, the Property Management and the Engineering Services section, Winter Roads Construction Airports Operation, Maintenance and Equipment. The Property Management

Section provides a co-ordinating function with the Crown Land Branch in the Department of Renewable Resources and Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and our own department with respect to land management and transactions. They're endeavouring to improve the data base concerning land holdings of all types in northern communities so that we may be able to respond more quickly to the ever increasing request with greater accuracy than in the past.

At the present time our program consists of providing information and clearing acquisition of property for approxi mately ten subdivisions, and th ese are requests arriving at a rate of two or three per month; clearing land title for ten airports, arranging for legal land surveys in 17 areas, handling approximately 1, 500 lease permits, processing approximately five to ten new land requirement applications per week, and liaising with other agencies for effective implementation of the program. The Engineering Services

section provides engineering designs and field advisory service to the department. It will be involved in the design of about 6 air strips, 9 waterworks systems, 5 bridges, 4 buildings, and carrying out about 12 feasibility studies relating to winter and all-weather engineering road route locations, bridge locations, water and sewer supply systems, and internal access roads to subdivisions in a number of northern communities. In addition, the

section would prepare specifications for divisional construction works. The winter roads , Mr. Chairman, during the 1975-76 fiscal year, the department constructed 7 48 miles of winter truck roads in northern Manitoba, over which more than 70 tons of goods were delivered from the following remote communities: Bloodvein, Little Grand Rapids, Berens River, Ste . Theresa Point, Wasigamac, Gardenhill, Cross Lake, Oxford House, God's Lake Narrows, Norway House, Moose Lake, Southern Indian Lake. The cost of the program has been $1, 850, 000.

A new roadway was developed between Cross Lake and Oxford House along a route where the soil conditions will permit gradual improvement of this route to provide a prolonged hauling season. Work was also performed along a similar route between God's Lake Narrows and Gardenhill. This is a major change from the traditional winter road construction techniques that developed routes across lakes and muskegs.

The advantage of the new approach is an extension of the hauling season, thus reducing the continuous in crease to freight rates or even lower ing them; the eventual reduction of construction costs for these roads as the need to build ice roads across the swamps and lakes will be reduced or removed; the reduction of the very high cost of maintaining roads across the open lakes, also the reduction of the uncertainty of a completion of a winter road which is so dependent upon severe frost conditions prevailing prior to any heavy snow fall.

The roadway also may be used for the purpose of harvesting timber and fish, as well as for mineral exploration. The roadway from Cross Lake to God's Lake Narrows has improved service to these communities and resulted in the following estimated savings on the basis of a public road: The new road, Mr. Chairman, the construction and maintenance costs for the new road were $211, 728; the cost of the road in '73 - '74 was - that is the price of that day was $728, 534, so on the actual construction and maintenance, a saving using the new routes of approximately $66, 000. The distance of the new route is 187 miles, the

March 30, 1976 1731 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• distance of the old route was 165 miles plus the rail haul from Winnipeg to Ilford. The cost of dry goods per ton over the new route is about $44.70. The cost over the old route, rail costs about $51. 00, truck haul costs about $42. 00, handling about $6. 00, so a saving of about $45. 00 per ton over the new route.

The iurn around time from Winnipeg over the new route is 53 hours, the turn around time on the old route was 36 hours on truck and anywhere from two days to two weeks on the train depending on how reliable the CN happened to be at that particular time . During the past season, the Winter Road Program received much more favourable public comments than the '73-'74 season, partly due to the improved Public Information System, the increased confidence that the systems are well maintained, and the realization that criticisms raised during the previous season were poorly founded. This year, Mr.

Chairman, the Free Press did not send Elman Guttormson and Fred Cloverley up to do a hatchet job on the Winter Road Program. The department emphasizes the need to enable northern Manitoba to profit financially from the program as well as receive training in labour trade and management skills. For this reason the work forces consisted of a very high percent of native northerners who are either operating as contractors at va:ri.ons levels, supervisors and foremen, as well as other trade and labouring occupations. Airport and Airport Construction Program, Mr.

Chairman, during the 1975-76 fiscal year, the department spent about $1. 5 million performing construction work on the northern Airstrip Development Program in the following locations : Berens River, Brochet, God's Lake, GardE;)nhill, God' s Lake Narrows, Little Grand Rapids , Moose Lake, Pukatawagan, Red Sucker Lake, Ste. Theresa Point, Shamattawa, South Indian Lake, and York Landing. Construction forces employed on these projects varied from registered construction companies , Band Councils , or to two or three individuals from remote com munities who undertook the work.

The contractors hired a very high percentage of local native staff where and when they were available. As a result of this program, together with the training provided by the contractor and the department, many permanent jobs for the operation and maintenance of airstrip facilities have been filled by the people who worked on the construction. The Airport Development Program is supported by the Department of Transport (Canada) and the Department of Regional Economic Expansion , who recognize it as a signi ficant program from the improvement of transportation and communications for the remote communities.

This program also includes the services in communities to enhance the Patient Air Transportation Program. A beneficial by-product of the program is the development of scheduled air carrier service on wheeled aircraft that has somewhat reduced the cost of air travel and cargo goods in the north.

This year we expect to spend about $1. 7 million of capital funds on the further development of this program and this year we are looking at the following air strip and airport improvement locations: Bloodvein, Berens River, God's Lake Narrows, Gardenhill, Little Grand Rapids , Norway House, Oxford House, Red Sucker Lake, South Indian Lake, York Landing and Wasagaman. And, Mr. Chairman, none of those are in my own constituency. The Airport Operation and Maintenance Program is an important service to the northern communities .

The operation keeps the airstrips and licensed airports serviceable to safe aviation standards as well as providing about 60 continuous jobs to people from remote communities who have been trained on construction projects or through this pro gram to perform the operations and maintenance of airports. The department now operates five licensed airports, five aerodromes that are licensable and 19 emergency landing strips. The 11 licensed and lic ensable aerodromes are able to support sch eduled air service to these communities .

Another very important program under the Northlands Agreeme nt is the Water Works Delivery Program. This was the new program during the 1975-76 fiscal year and the amount under the Northlands Agreement was $1 million. The department spent - not this full amount - in attempts to provide an all-year portable disinfected water supply sys tem to the following communities, and this , Mr. Chairman, is basically a standpipe or a tap system to get clean water into the communities: Cormorant, 2 systems ; Sherridon Croll Lake, 2 systems; Pikwitonei, 2 systems; Thicket Portage, 1 system; Ilford,

1732 March 30, 1976 SUPP LY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• 1 system. The water service is a basic service only with one outlet to each area providing reasonable all year round accessibility and having sufficient capacity to be extended in the future to provide for a house delivery service if that is ever able to be brought into existence. Due to the late start in 1975 work on the project is only partially complete. The department plans to construct similar water work systems in another six of the following communities during the 1976-77 year.

The communities we're looking at with an estimated expenditure this upcoming year of $900, 000 are Barrows-Red Deer Lake, Berens River, Cross Lake, Duck Bay, Granville Lake, God's Lake Narrows and Moose Lake. Norway House and Pelican Rapids are also being considered. The next item in the Estimates is the Northern Manpower Corps . The Manpower Corps has submitted a maintenance budget and it expects to experience an increase in the demand for services and also a less favourable climate in which to seek employment or employment alternatives for people from the remote communities.

In the job creation field there will be a decrease in the number of jobs in all of our maj or job creation pro- je cts. The Pas RTM Plant will go from 30 jobs in 1975 to 10 jobs in 1976. Cranberry Loggers from 30 jobs in 1975 to 10 jobs in October 1976. Minago Contractors will go from 25 jobs, and we don't know what will happen when 1heir con tract is completed at the end -o f this summer. Churchill Prefab Pl ant will go from lOO jobs , this year's level, to 65 jobs during the year of 1976.

The Northern Manpower Corps is attempting to counter act the effect of these reductions , which are due to changes in markets, by exploring other alternatives , but it does not expect any significant improvement while economic res traint characterizes the bus iness and government climate.

Last year's Northern Manpower Corps operations were concentrated in the follow ing areas : Job creation, a total of 52, 927 man days were provided by the Northern Manpower Corps in the following maj or project areas to December 31, 1975: Churchill Prefab Plant 38, 274 man days of employment; Minago Contractors Limited, 6, 051 man days of employment; The Pas RTM Plant, 3, 475 man days of employment; Cranberry Loggers 5, 127 man days of employment. And if you figure it out, Mr. Chairman, that is 240. 5 full-time jobs or full year round jobs.

Short term jobs in the furm of work orientation or training days were also created at the community level in the order of 2, 399 man days to December 1, 1975. Special programs aimed at the youth of northern communities and the provision of home visitor service to the communities generated a total of 28, 600 and 2, 505 man days respectively. In the employment service 1, 155 plac ements have been made as of December 31, either directly or in conjunction with Canada Manpower Centres in the north with 90 northerners being referred to training institutions.

The Tawow project at Leaf Rapids continued to experience problems with housing but has been able to maintain a level of 30 project participants throughout the year. The relocation program at Thompson experienced similar physical problems with the result that the number of clients has remained below expectations throughout the year . Both of these relocation projects have been evaluated and the program changes will be intro duced this year with a view to improvement of physical resources and client retention.

The Northern Apprenticeship Program involved 101 northerners this year, 90 of which are currently indentured. The Special Certification Program has been added to the Apprenticeship Training Program, which provides special training and upgrading in com munication to those northerners who already possess the work experience necess ary but have never had the opportunity to write the certification examination.

Because of the concerns expressed earlier about the economy it is the intention of the department that the Northern Manpower Corps will place more emphasis on actively seeking out specific individual opportunities for northerners who are ready to make such adjustments and to attempt to maintain 1he existing levels of job creation activities.

The Northern Manpower Corps also intends to continue to assist those communities which on their own initiatives are seeking ways and means of capitalizing on the limited opportuni ties represented either by their own resource base or industrial and governmental activities in their immediate areas .

March 30, 1976 1733 SUPP LY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'

d) The local government development division, Mr. Chairman, provides services to northern remote communities which assist in the attainment of local self-government. The services take the form of financial and technical assistance of a local municipal nature, of training and development, knowledge and skills necessary to manage local affairs and also information exchanged through workshops, conferences and newsletters. As I mentioned earlier one area of increasing emphasis is assisting residents from remote northern communities to create economic development and to take advantage of employment opportunities.

Again, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the question of why must we give this emphasis to the remote communi ties? Northern Manitoba covers two thirds of our prov ince, there are about ten urban or resource communities and approximately 50 remote communities , mostly native communities. Of the 86, 000 northern residents about 32, 000 live in the smaller remote settlements . In 1963 the total cash income of individuals in northern Manitoba was estimated at about 190 million or at 2, 307 per capita for the 82, 600 northerne rs , approximately.

The four communities with 51 percent of the population accounted for 77 perc ent of the total personal cash income. These communities are Flin Flon, Lynn Lake, Thompson and The Pas. All are mining or primary resource centres. The average per capita income in these centres is $3, 412. 00. The 57 communities with the 34 percent of the population accounted for only four percent of the northern cash income. Average per capita cash income in these remote communities was $270 . 00.

So the average per capita income in the resource centres, the aforementioned, was $3, 412; the average per capita in the 50 worst remote communities is $270. 00. These figures, Mr. Chairman, hide even greater inequities when you consider that the bottom percentage, that is, the amount of per capita income on the bottom percentage of people in those communities and the amount of per capita income for those at the top of the figures. In the 57 poorer communities the welfare rate averages $112 per capita, or 42 per cent of per capita income. Mr.

Chairman, I'd just like to repeat that figure, 42 per cent of the per capita income from the remote northern communities comes in the form of welfare payments. The employment therefore we can see is concentrated in the larger sectors with the bulk of the jobs being held by people originating from outside the north. Apart from unemployment and low income the poorer communities suffer in general from poorer housing, inadequate health, education, recreation, transportation and infrastructural services.

There are major problems in the field of child and maternal care, communi cable diseases, dental health, alcoholism, family breakdowns, child abuse, violation of the law, etc. , etc. Where the people in the urban centres have a style of living similar to those of you in the south the people in the remote native areas face different problems and are having difficulty finding viable ways of earning a living. Traditional occupations of hunting and fishing and trapping will no longer support the rapidly increasing population. For all of the province about 28 perc ent of the popu lation is under 15.

In the northern isolated settlements 45 percent of the population is under age 15. Therefore there will not be enough jobs and economic development in northern Manitoba to support this very large, very young populati on. While traditional occupations must be made as viable as possible governments will also have to work with northern people to develop new opportunities for these young people. To simply do nothing in the face of this complex dilemma is not acceptable.

In both human and economic terms doing nothing is the most costly alternative, for in the end it would mean a people depend ing on welfare and an increase in the very costly social problems that result when people are unable to improve their own situation. Mr. Chairman, this department and this government intends to do something. The problems are complex and difficult and solutions will not be easy. But at least we are going to do our best; at least we are going to try to deal with these complex problems. Thank you, �r. Chairman. MR� CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James.

1734 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY -N ORTHERN AFFAIRS MR� GEORGE MINAKER (Ste. James): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to make a few _comments at this time and I don't profess to be an expert of the north. MR; CHAlRMAN: Speaking on Resolution 97( a)(2) - Salaries and wages . MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, just for clarification, we have passed over MR. CHAffiMAN: No, that comes back ••• MR. MINAKER: Yes, okay, right. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that I have had the opportunity to spend some time in fue north during the past eight to nine years .

The first part of them were primarily on business and mainly in fue mining areas , but in the past few years I have had a chance to visit our people in the north and to meet with them and discuss with them and I can say that I don't lmow the intricacies of the Minister's Department and I hope that he will bear with me as the new critic for the Progressive Conservative Party, of his department, that he will answer the questions that we raise. We would also like to thank him for his information that he has presented up to now in his opening remarks.

I would like to say, and make it very clear that our party, the Progressive Conservative Party, do not take any issues with the goals of his department, that local government have more authority and more say, we support this goal. We also support the goal of a basic level of services being available to all Mani tobans whether they are located in the southeast corner of the province or in the northeast or northwest part of our province.

The goal of better transportation for anywhere in our province we support and will not take issue with this and also that northern residents have access to the employment in their are a. We have no issue with that , We have no issue with the local economic development of any area in our province whether it be in northern Manitoba or in southern Manitoba.

But where we will take issue with the Minister is how these goals are adminis tered and how they are developed and directed and it will be in these areas where we will take issue with the Minister and try and seek out from him fue information on whether, in fact, the goals are being met in what we feel is the proper method to provide these important rights to people in our province. I would like to say that in regards to local governments having the aut hority to develop one of the issues that kept coming up when I did visit our northern areas , one of the complaints and I call them complaints.

I think the Honourable the Member from Churchill in one of his contributions in debate on, I think, income for northern people indicated that they were beefs or bitches , but I call them gripes . --(Interjection)--My apologies, I withdraw the statement. But the gri pes. This is one thing that our northern citizens are very capable of doing is communicating with us when we do have a chance to talk with them.

One of the maj or issues that was brought forward was the fact that while all thes e programs seem to be going on and all these plans, and all the developments supposedly of local governments, there was no input from the local people. I think that the honourable members re presenting the north have run across this in fueir communica tions and contacts with their constituents, that there's that general complaint that all of the input decision-making power is coming from a central authority. The local people are not getting that opportunity to make that decision before it happens.

They may get the government setups later on but the actual planning that's taking place at this time they are not getting fuat input. I think it was reaffirmed in a recent

article in the Free Press by a member of one of the committees that was set up to deal with fue planning of the north that there is not that local input or not that say. Somewhere else the decision is being made. Also with regards to the northern residents having access to northern employ ment, this was anofuer issue that came up.

It seemed to be stated that there seems to be a continual flow of civil servants from Winnipeg or the southern regions to the north to make their decisions there or decide what had to be done and come back to Winnipeg on the end of the week and report and make decisions here and proceed with the plans and then on Monday morning fly back to the north. This was another general issue that was brought forward from the people in the north.

March 30, 1976 1735 SUPPL Y - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. MINAKER cont'

d) The other comment that the Minister made in his opening remarks that we would like to raise questions on is: he indicated that priorities had to be set. This again was a complaint relating to the input. Who is setting the priorities? Who makes the decision that we will do this today and we'll do that three years from now? It again relates to the fact that there's lack of opportunity by the citizens of the area to have that input into the setting of priorities. Mr. Chairman, one of the other important issues that were broug ht forward, and it happened at the land hearings that we had at Thompson, Manitoba.

It was br ought up several times , not only from people within the Thompson area but also Wabowden and Gillam, the right to have free title of land, to have that Torrens title. This was lacking in many areas and we were advised that there was some effort by the government to pro vide this type of right to the northern residents . Yet we heard of a person who came forward, a lady who was living in Wabowden that had to move I think it was two or three times in a short period of time because she was living on leased land, Cr own land that had a year's lease but I think had a 30 -day notice.

She had to move her residence at her own cost because there was a road right-of-way travelling by her home, found out later on, a few years later, that she had to move it again at her own cost. This I think is wrong, that we are denying the rights of our citizens whether they're in southern Manitoba or northern Manitoba, that they not have the right to title of land the same as you and I have in other regions if we should happen to live outside of the northern area. Mr.

Chairman, we will not take issue with the economic development of our northern area because we know as citizens of Manitoba it is our frontier and it's the future of Manitoba. We know that if the north is healthy all of Manitoba will be healthy and all of Manitoba will benefit. We do take issue with the way that the development is taking place. It seems that the Honourable Minister's Department has taken on the objective of being the job creator of the north. That's a pretty big responsibility being the job creator of I think it's ten percent of our population. I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that the government is not capable of being the job creator of northern Manitoba or of all of Manitoba and that the political climate has to change in the province to assist the development of the north.

What I mean by this statement is that as we all know the mining industry is a very important part of the life in northern Manitoba and the government is not capable of the continual development of mining in our province and that unless the political climate changes, that the government realizes the importance of private industry and the develop ment of private industry in our northern area and does not try and take on the role as the almighty big brother watching over our resources and saying, no, you can't do this, no, you can't do that and we're going to take you over .

This is what the general political climate is at the present time in our province. It is only natural that the mining industry will take the attitude that they cannot afford big capital investments in a province where they don't know whether they will be taken over tomorrow or their rights will be expropriated. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the political climate is a very important factor in the growth of our north and there's no denying it. We would like to deny it but it's there. Mr.

Chairman, this particular department and government seem to be a statistics government and what I mean by that is that they feel it's important to have statistics to state that they have been able to achieve this in the north with so many miles of winter roads or we've trained so many people, so many pilots, and so on but with really no seeming known objective in mind. I take no issue with the idea of training several native pilots. But once the y're trained, utilize them . Don't just train them and let them sit there or stagnate.

When one goes out and trains somebody make sure that the training is useful, that it continues on. This is one of the problems about a govern ment that's trying to be the job creator, that when that res traint comes and the govern ment cannot afford to spend that money on that next project that' s required in order to keep those pilots flying or somebody else working, that's when we get the problem. What are we going to do with these people? Do they go back on welfare? So it's very

1736 March 30, 197 6 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAffiS (MR� MINAKER cont'd) • • • • • important that the political climate is there to encourage private development of our resources and use of the manpower that we have there that's going to waste. Mr. Chairman, this government is really hamstrung with people of the north. What has happened is that in the past few years they have gone out and made promises to these people and spent money, I won't deny that, lots of money has been spent in the north. They've disillusioned the people . You lmow they expect things to happen and they're not happening.

There's been so many programs promised that it boils down to that this department has become a travel and talk department. I will elaborate on that further on in the Estimates but they have become a travel and talk department. Pe ople travelling in, talking, taking people to meetings to plan things and so on but when it comes down to what is happening, it's led to frustration of the people in the north. We saw it here today, Mr. Chairman, we saw the frustration right here today with the Member from Thompson. The unfortunate part, it was misguided frustration. He went after the Fe deral Government.

Not only that he went after the federal member from Ch urchill who's in the Opposition and made claims that he wasn't a good senior member from the north. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, the honourable mem ber repre senting Churchill for Parliament I think is probably one of the best that's ever come out of there and I think that I would have more people supporting that statement than the one that the Honourable Member from Churchill made this afternoon. But tha t's where this frustration is misguided. He is going after the Opposition. He's going after the Fe deral Government.

MR, CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member state his point of order? MR. DILLEN: I didn't say that the member wasn't a good politician. I think he's an excel lent politician, Sir. I mean he has all the attributes to be a good politician. He shakes people's hands and smiles well, he pats each other on the back ••• MR. CHAffiMAN: That's not a point of order. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, in case the Honourable Member from Thompson didn't hear , I said he was a good member, not a good politician. But anyways, Mr. Chairman, this frustration that's misguided from ••• MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose state his point of order. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Yes, I think it shouldn't be left on the record and I don't think the Member for St. James would want it left on the record. He was referring to the Member for Churchill who had made the remarks but it was the Member for Thompson, not the Member for Churchill. MR� CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, this frustration that we saw this afternoon from the Honourable Member from Thom pson was misguided, that he went after the Fe deral Government. I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Honourable Member from Thompson, go after this government, go after his own government that he's a member of. The Honourable Member from Gimli went after them when Saunders was in trouble, when the air people pulled out. The Honourable Member from Transcona, the Minister of Labour, he went after them for Flyer and got the employment in his area. So, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest ••• MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wasn't quite clear as to whether he was sug gesting patronage by me of the development of Flyer Industries in Transcona. Was that your purport? MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I suggest that the frustration of the Honourable Member from Thom pson is misguided. Go after his own Cabinet to get the money. This is exactly one of the goals that the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs stated in his opening remarks was to develop that local industry, those resources , to make use of the manpower that's there. Fishing has been one of the oldest - well from Day One that there was anybody in the north they fished. This is what the people lmow in the north in these remote areas . So go after the Provincial Government and get that subsidy because it's all important.

If the Fe deral Government won't come in on it well we'l l attack them but don't just attack the Federal Government. Attack your own government. Get it like the honourable mem bers did in their own areas.

March 30, 1976 17 37 order. SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN: Order ple ase. The honourable member state his point of MR. DILLEN: He obviously didn't hear a thing that I said, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. That's not a point of order. MR. DILLEN: Well I want to correct a statement that he made, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Rising on a point of privilege ? MR. DILLEN: Yes, in my remarks I recognized that this Provincial Government has a certain responsibility. I didn' t deny that.

But I also recognized, and I hope that the facts are not being distorted, that the Federal Government also has a responsibility. MR. CHAJRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I hope that the Honourable Member from Thompson goes after his government and his fellow colleagues and gets that subsidy because I'm sure that he will get the 100 percent support of the Progressive Conservative Party to get this because I lmow the Honourable Member from Thompson I don't think got Inco to go into his area.

I don't even lmow whether he wants Inco in his area but I would think that he owes it to the area he represents and also the other four members of the government side who represent the five northern seats will go after their colleagues to get this subsidy for the people in the north because it's a very important future of the province and of the northern area, that they do get this transportation subsidy so that we can see fishing come back into the north and be profitable for those natives who want to take

part in this type of development of the north. The other complaint that we got, Mr. Chairman, was that these particular pro grams are useful to our province and we agree with the government, they are useful and they are important, the programs they're putting forward with. I would like to comment that when we form the government the next time around we won't dissolve, we won't --(Interjection)-- MR. CHAJRMAN: Order please. MR. MINAKER: We won't dismember these programs .

We'll sure change the way they're administered so that they're properly administered and efficiently adminis trated and also tightening up the administration of these programs is very necessary. They're very sloppy at this time. We'l l get rid of the politically oriented thinking of the department. That's an important one. That's one of the complaints that has come back is the politically oriented thinking of the department from ten percent of the people of our province. Mr.

Chairman, it's important too that the northern area gets the opportunity to bid and to try and supply some of the services that the various departments of govern ment and industry in the north are requiring. Not just supply it from Winnipeg but if we want to develop that secondary industry in the north, let's give these companies, these people that want to stay and develop with the north, give them the opportunity to bid and supply on different services. Not only government but also encourage the companies in the area to make use of the northern local industries and companies.

I think it's important that this government • • • Mr. Chairman, maybe I can break at this point if you like. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Pursuant to Rule 19(2) of our House Rules I am leaving the Chair to return at 8 p.m . this evening, for Private Members' Hour.

17 38 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - CORRECTIONS AND REHABILITATION MR. CHAIRMAN: There being a quorum , the Committee will come to ord er . Order please . Order please. I direct the attention of honourable members to Page 31 in their Estimates Book, Resolution 62( b)(2) --pass; (b)-- pass . Resolution 62(c)( 1) . The Honourable Member for Rhine land. MR. BROWN: We have a considerable expenditure here, Mr . Chairman, of $1 ,9 28, 000 .

I wonder if the Minister could give us some indication of just exactly what they are doing in the field of probation, of parole services, the problems that they're en countering, and I wonder while he is giving us an account of this probation and parole services, whether he could also make some comments on remand .

I know that last year that when we were in this particular area, that there were some people who had been on remand as long as 18 months and I think there was two that had even been on remand longer than that, and I wonder if the Minister can comment on this, because this seems to me is a situation which is just intolerable, nobody should ever be on remand more than a couple of months. So I would like to hear the Minister's comments on those particular items • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . HON. J.

R. (Bud) BOYCE (Minister responsible for Corrections and .Rehabil itation) (Winnipeg Centre): To your last question, perhaps the Ass istant Deputy Minister could look up the figures relative to the length of stay and the numbers of people in re mand so I can give you an answer to that question. But the item that we are addressing at the moment is probation and parole services. Perhaps the item of remands can be dealt better with under my salary because there isn't an inclusion in this particular item of the moneys which we have allocated to deal with that problem .

The expenditure last year you will note was 1. 7 million in this particular area, and this year is $1 .9 re lative to salaries, for an increase in the total budgetary item $2 .1 million to $2 .3 million, and with the exception of six additional Probation Officers to handle the increased work load, the rest of it is inflationary increase . MR. BROWN: Can the Minister give me an indication of how many people are involved in this salary ? MR. BOYCE: Staff members allocated, the total is 154 last year, 160 this year . That's for the whole province .

One of the things that they have done in this particular area is attract people from the community on a volunteer program . The Director of Probations advises me that there are now 26 voluntary Probation Officers handling 91 probationers . This is a thrust that we started last year and we 're expanding it hopefully this year, and this is in keeping with the policy to try and involve more and more people in the community rather than moving strangers into the community. MR. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, this seems to be quite a high ratio of people working, if we have 91 out on probation and we have 26 people looking after these people, I wonder if the Minister could tell me just exactly what type of program are they carry ing out becaus e this seems to be a very high intensive as far as Probation Officers are concerned . MR. BOYCE: Well of course it varies from Probation Officer to Probation Officer. As I said it was a voluntary program, and all these people get is a modest honorarium, they're not paid a salary for this.

For example, one Probation Officer handles 8 probationers, one handles 3, another one handles 3, and three in a particular area handle 5 between them and two handle 8. The highest one is one person handling 11 probationers in a particular community. MR. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, is there any particular program that the Minister could inform us of that these people are carr ying out with these people on probation, are they trying to rehabilitate them in some way or other, or just exactly what is the type of program that is ongoing as far as people out on probation is concerned . MR.

BOYCE: As I mentioned earlier, one of the jobs of the people within the probation directorate is to try and ascertain the best way to deal with the person who is in some trouble with the law, and in some instances it can be done with and through the co-operation of somebody in the community who has an interest, who are willing to spend their time with them . A comparable thrust in a non judiciary field is what the Big

March 30, 1976 1739 SUPPLY - CORRECTIONS AND REHABILITATION (MR. BOYCE cont'd) . • • . . Brother program does . There are many people involved through the Big Brother program who because of the death of a father, for example, it has proved well worth the effort for these people to match up boys and adults . The Mem ber for As siniboia, for example, is involved with that particular movement.

So the voluntary Probation Officer type of involvement is at this range ; the voluntary probation people with the staff are trained in a sense, are in the system longer, ·t hey are given seminars and this type of thing to tell them what individual counselling is about, the various theories in it, family therapy and what programs are availab le in other areas for life skills, and even to the extent of if these people prove to be beyond the capacity of the voluntary Probation Officer then he would be referred to somebody within the system .

So it's really part of a - what we are trying to deploy in the community is a matter of depth and res ource, and the people who can be dealt with by the less professi onal will have some of these people, and at the other end of the scale where it takes intense pro fessional involvement , and the se facilities, the best we can provide them will be provided. MR. BROWN: I wonder, Mr . Chairman, whether we could maybe move to parole . I would like to know how many people there are on parole at the present time, and what type of program, if there is any program whatsoever carried out with these people ? MR.

BOYC E: In the annual report last year for example, there were 811 people on probation and parole and I am informed that of these approximately 50 would be parol ees . Now parole is a function of the Parole Board which is under the Federal juris diction . That's in the adult area . In the juvenile area there were of course 1, 443 people on probation . MR. BROWN: So then I understand, Mr . Chair man, that this particular item also includes your juveniles , -- {Interj ection) -- this particular area, the probation and parole services, also includes your juveniles. MR.

BOYC E: Right, that is the total of the whole directorate which is juvenile and adults, that there are 53 adults of the total who were on probation who were actually on parole . I mentioned last night that the number was around 10, 000 people who were in volved in the juvenile system on an annual basis . And that is the case, I had guessed at the figure, but that is the case, about 2, 500 adults and 10, 000 juveniles. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 62{c) {1). The Honourable Member for Swan River . MR. JA MES H.

BILTON {Swan River): As I understood the Minister, he tells us that there 's 15 4, or now there 's going to be 16 0 Probation Officers, does that include headquarters staff as well ? MR. BOYCE: That includes everyone within that directorate . MR. BILTON: These Probation Officers, could you give us a breakdown ? I know it 's possibly in the Annual Report of a year ago . Could you give us a breakdown as to how many are in rural Manitoba and how many are in the city and where they are in rural Manitoba, of this 154 people ? MR . BOYCE : There are 50 Probation Officers in Winnipeg and 40 in rural .

The staff of 160 can be considered as being 14, with 77 totally located in the total Winnipeg area and 5 in East Man, 10 in WestMan, 8 in the Central , 5 in Parklands, 6 in The Pas , 7 in Thompson, and 15 of these staff man years years are marriage counsellors . MR . BILTON: Marriage counsellors . MR. BOYCE: If you will recall in the Juvenile Family Court Act which was passed in the wisdom of a prior administration, there were established the positions of Marriage Reconciliation Officers, and the se people were attached to this directorate when it was under the aegis of the Atto rney-General .

So when it was tran sferred over, these 15 people came with us, and these 15 people are also located in the City of Winnipeg. MR. BILTON: You did mention that there were something like 12, OGO ·iJeople, that is juveniles and adults , coming under the umbrella of this particular program. Is that an increase over last year or a decrease over last year ? MR. BOYCE: As far as staff is conce rned or the people • . • ? MR. BILTON: No, as far as the people you're taking care of is concerned . MR. BOYC E: I have seen various figures, and the figures that I have seen,

17 40 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - CORREC TIONS AND REHABILITATION (MR. BOYCE cont'd) ••••• unless the staff can advise me differently , is that it was up 18.7 percent in the first quarter of this year as far as workload is concerned . MR. BILTON: You see it as an increase over last year ? MR. BOYCE : Eight percent, not 18 percent. MR. BILTON: And the increase has been continuing over the last three or four years I take it. MR. BOYCE: This is true. MR. BILTON: What do you suggest, Mr . Minister, that's going to curb this developing situation?

Can you see this staff continuing into two and three hundred before we're very much older to cope with the juvenile delinquency, or at least probation and patrol of parole services for the entire population - do you see it growing, or do you have any hopes of it being reduced ? What I'm trying to say, Mr. Minister, is with a staff of 160 field workers, do you see the sun coming over the horizon insofar as their efforts are concerned or is it going to continue to grow ? MR.

BOY CE: The Member for Swan River knows me well enough, that I share his concern, that unless society speaks a little bit more about rights, a little bit more about responsibilities rather than rights then perhaps what he predicts will be the case . Because it appears as if this is continually increasing, and as people keep talking about the rights of individuals rather than some of the responsibilities of the indi viduals within our community to at least behave themselves if nothing else, then perhaps we are in some danger. MR. BILTON: Do you find, Mr .

Minister, that ••• or do you instruct that these people in their everyday operations try to include themselves in the curriculum of of the schools, that is talking to school children and talking to churc h groups as to the effort the department is trying to make in this direction? MR. BOYCE: Well, the Director of the service has been spending considerable part of his time in doing just that.

Now there has been meetings held with the superin tendents of schools and also with the school boards to try and see how better to come to some understanding about how we can help each other in the area of this juvenile problem, if you will .

Your Member for River Heights in his question to me about the names in the computer type of thing, that was the reason that these names were put into a type of mailing device, so that as we build up the relationships between the school trustees and the department and the staff of the directorate and the people actually in the schools, that hopefully we can come to grips with some of these problems . MR. BILTON: Would you agree, Mr. Minister, that possibly you should include in your program that your field workers endeavour to give talks to Chambers of Commerce and school groups and so on.

That has not been done, I take from your remarks. And added to that, while I'm speaking on this particular subject, does the department provide printed material for distribution in an effort to curtail this developing situation ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Before I call on the Honourable Minister, I should remind all members that we are in Committee of Supply and they should address their remarks to the Chair and not to individual members. The Honourable Minister . MR. BOY CE: I wonder if the Honourable Minister could have a glass of water . Thank you . MR. BILTON: You better ask through the Chair. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Chair gets thirsty too . MR. BOY CE: In answer to the membe r's question, of course this is what the staff is working on . You know, one of the things as a newspaper man, you well know that newspapers never refused ink, and some of the stuff that's ground out I'm not too sure about the utility of it. So one of the things that I have cautioned the staff is to try and understand what messages are needed in the community and try to produce those lines of communication.

And in the lines of communication, one of the things that I have sug gested to the people as they move into the community, that they should get all of the people in the community involved . And in fact it wouldn't hurt them to talk to some of the MLAs in the district, they might be able to tell them who could be of ass istance in this regard. Some of the local publishers • • •

March 30 , 1976 17 41 SUPPLY - CORRECTIONS AND REHABILITATION MR. BILTON: Mr . Chairman, that snide remark from the Minister is entirely uncalled for . It's a question of the lvcal member going to the Probation Officer who is so tied up with his clientele as he calls them, or clients, that it's pretty difficult to sit down and talk . But I don't hold that as any fault with the man concerned, I'm sure he's trying to do the best he can under the circumstances . But it seems to me, and talking parochially, that the man in Swan River is just overworked . MR. BOYCE: That 's true . MR.

BILTON: And you must have field men travel ling around the province that are expects in this field that could do a tremendous public relations job for the depart ment which I feel, Mr . Minister, is not being done now . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. BOYCE: Through you, Mr . Chairman, it wasn't a snide remark at the Member for Swan River either. But I share his concern once again, I could use not 6 but 50 of these people .

I'm sorry in this restraint period, nevertheless, I couldn't in the total context of things recommend to Cabinet any more than 6 under this particular area . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley . MR. WILSON: Mr . Chairman, I'm still not clear, because under Page 54 I realize these Public Acc ounts are from '74- '75, but under Alcohol and Drug Services it has approximately 8 employees and I'm sure that's expanded, and under the Care and Treatment of Adult Offenders which I gathered was under this

section we 're dealing with, that the total is about 230 to 240 people . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . Order please. Would refer the honourable member to Page 32, Resolution 62(e), Care and Treatment of Adult Offenders . We are on 62(c) . MR. WILSON: Well that's what I was going to talk about, except that all of a sudden marriage counsellors crept into it. Is this under this

section (c), the 15 mar riage counsellors ? MR. BOYCE : Yes, Mr . Chairman. MR. WILSON: It is ? So in other words under Probation and Parole Services we have in there under Salaries, 15 marriage counsellors . What I would like to ask the Minister, is he completely satisfied with the chain of command, because it's kind of mind boggling to try to find out where someone is slotted in, as to who he 's responsible for and you can't really put a finger on - has there been an expansion in staff? I talked to some Probation Officers and they 're overworked .

I'd like to know the average caseload of adults per probation officer, that would be one question I would like to ask. It would seem to me that generally they seem to be putting in a full day's work, and yet when you come to find out how many they are, you find out that under Salaries it doesn't just include them, it includes others and others that should be included in here under the Minister of Health. So maybe if the Minister would like to comment, Mr.

Chairman, on the average caseload and how many again, if he could repeat it for me, how many, under these Salaries, how many employees, and maybe he could break them down for me so I could make a note in the book. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WILSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, on a point of order as I say MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley on a point of order. MR. WILSON: Well, the public statements that the Minister makes outside the House as if I'm to be just passed off without any particular problem and none of my questions are answered .

I may remind the Minister that if I get mad enough and start looking into this Fish Plant • • • MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the point of order ? MR. WILSON: The point of order is the Minister refuses to answer my questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. BOYCE : Well, I wish the Member for Wolseley would counsel with his colleagues who have been around for awhile . I didn't refuse to answer the question. The usual procedure in dealing with the Estimates is for the Minister to respond to a number of questions after they have been asked by members of the committee . I'll be glad to

17 42 March 30, 1976 SUPPLY - CORRECTIONS AND REHABILITATION (MR. BOYCE cont'd) • • • . • either answer the questions of the member or debate with him anywhere anytime about anything. MR. WILSON: I would welcome that. I've asked questions in the House and I've been told to ask them at Estimates . I ask questions under the Question Period, they refer them to the Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood . MR. WARREN STEEN (Crescentwood): Mr. Chairman, the Minister made some remarks about parole and that the problem really starts in the home.

Recently the Winnipeg School Di vision has seen fit to hire special personnel to deal with truancy. And perhaps, Mr . Chairman, you can correct me whether

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 57.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a941f27386d0998b92b66ff68026264a28aa4095

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