LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 3 March 19 81 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Bir tle­ Russell): Presenting Petitions ... Read ing and Receiving Petitions ... PRE SENTING REPO RTS BY STAN DING AN D SPECIAL CO MMIT TEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Radisson. P.�R. AE!E KOVNATS: � .. 1r. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Dauphin. report of committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports .. Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills . INTRO DUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this time I would like to draw the honourable members attention to the Speaker's Gallery where we have 20 students of the Political Science Club of Grade 9 to 12 under the direction of Mrs. Linda Martin from Balmoral Hall. We also have 45 students of Grade 5 standing from Elwick School under the direction of Mr. Ron Solomon. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks.

We also have 26 students of Grade 9 standing from Victor Wyatt School under the direction of Mr. Richard Ducharme. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. On behalf of all honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. OR AL QUESTI ONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Fi rst Minister.

Can the Fi rst Minister confirm that Jake Epp, the Member for Pr ovencher , was spe aking on behalf of the Government of the Province of Manitoba when he's reported to have stated th at Manitoba Premier Sterling Lyon. a Conservative. and the staunchest opponent of a rights char ter was willing to compromise and accept a binding charter on certain conditions. Lyon was not available for comment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I'm reminded again of an anecdote that is told about the Duke of Wellington who was walking thr ough St.

Ja mes Park one day, and a cha p approached him and said, Mr. Smith, 1 believe, and the Duke looked at him and said if you believe that, sir, you would believe anything. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the n I guess tha t speaks for Jake Epp and what Jake Epp had to say in Ottawa. Is the First Minister prepared then to acknowledge that he is still opposed to a Charter of Rights under any conditions? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, this government is prepared to acknowledge that we support the Federal, parliamenta ry, monar chical syst em in Canada which needs the support of all good Canadians at this time considering the kind of attack under which these three items of our traditions are presently facing. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, again stripping the response of all rhetoric, is the First Minister opposed to a Charter of Rights under any condition? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I think th at this government has made it very clear on any number of occasions as to its opposition to an entrenched Charter of Human Rights.

If my honourable friend wants the latest copy of my speech in that regard, I'll be happy to send it him because he is obviously ill­ informed on th e position of the government. However, Mr. Speaker, we were treated last week to the position of his party which is that he expressed the view on behalf of himself and the other 22? Is it 20, is it 19, or is it 18, have their own views? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then I would ask the First Minister if he would ensure that a copy of that speech is sent to Jake Epp so that one thing is said in the Province of Manitoba and not a different thing down in Ottawa as was the case here - it was the case here - apparently to a convention of young Conservatives over the weekend. Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Finance. Can the Minister of Finance advise the amount of additional gasoline revenue that will be obtained by the Province of Manitoba as a result of the anno uncement last night of further gas increases? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris- Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I th ink that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is probably aware or should be aware tha t any furthe r increase in provincial taxation depends upon an assessment of the prices being charged at a time that a survey is taken, of some 20 service stations I bel ieve it is, th roughout the Winn ipeg area.

So until that sort of a survey is taken again and one is not immediately contemplated, then th ere would be no further increases and any suggestion that may have been in the media that such an increase would automically take place, is not the case. 1247

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, then further to the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Finance then is acknowledging that there will be an increase in the gasoline tax, the Province of Manitoba's result of the announcement last night of further gasoline price increases. MR. RANSOM: I would think at some time, Mr.

Speaker, that would probably be the case but it does n't necessarily follo w tha t it automatically happens the next time th ere is an adjustment because as the honourable member may be aware, the price of gasoline fluctuates in the city for various reasons and if there is a price war on and the price happens to be lower then the tax can in fact, decrease. So it is not an automatic thing that the next adj!Jstment of tax will result in an increase. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister.

David Crombie has been reported as telling a young Conservative meeting last week that one area of compromise Mr. Lyon is willing to look at is having the courts, in ruling a violation of rights, place the burden for correcting the law back on the Legislature and this refers to the Charter of Rights. If that is the Premier's position, and I don't know whether it is or it isn't but that is what Mr.

Crombie is quoted as saying the Premi er 's posi tion is, if tha t is the Premier's position can he inform the House as to what current or proposed law could be interpreted as removing from the Legislatures the burden for correcting a law? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, this bears of course upon the question that was asked by the Leader of the Opposition earlier, with I'm sure on his part some frivolity if that's possible in the Leader of the Opposition these days, I can't be responsible for what the press in Canada report other people as saying on my behalf.

All I can say is that I made no speeches with respect to the Charter of Rights while in Ottawa on the we ek-e nd, to the young Progressive-Conservatives or to anyone else and no comments that differ at all from what I have said since 1968 on the concept of a Charter of Rights, in that it would be bad for human rights and civil rights in Canada and it is not our system, and I'v e said that consistently, Mr. Speaker, over a period of some 14 or 15 years. Since this first idea was proposed by Mr.

Trudeau when he was Minister of Jusice and later the Prime Minister of Canada, I have not changed my position at all on that and I welcome the support that I judge some members of the Official Opposition are about to give to that propo;:;ition and growing numbers of people across Canada are giving to that position, when they see that human rights and civil rights in Canada are better protected under our present system than under any tinkered system that Mr. Trudeau or anyone else could prescribe for Canada. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, another question to the First Minister.

Again I am quoting directly from Montreal Gazette, February 27, 1981 from Mr. Crombie as quoted: "Talking about one area of compromisf') Mr. Lyon is willing to look at", with respect to the Charter of Rights. Is the Premier then going to tell us tha t he has not discussed this matter with Mr. Crombie and with Mr. Epp, or are these people just telling a different story in a different part of the country, where people might like to hear a different story? Is the Conservative Party speaking with a forked tongue again? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I believe I made it clear as recently as yesterday that I and the Government of Manitoba does not subscribe to the position on the Constitution vis-a-vis an entrenched Ch arter of Rights which is taken by the Federal Progressive Conservative Party. I repeat that again today, I'll repeat it tom orrow if it's necessary for my honourable friend and I cannot be responsible for any newspaper clippings that he manages to dredge up from his marvelous research section, which at the same time can't dredge up that the increase on supplement to senior citizens is double what they say in their own propaganda. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Possibly the First Minister could get his Minister of Propaganda to issue a statement telling us exactly what the position of the Conservative Party is with respect to the statements of Mr. Epp and Mr. Crombie. I will have this document forwarded to the First Minister and maybe he can send corrections to Mr. Crombie and to Mr. Epp so that we will know. (Int erject ion)- My question is, is he prepared to send this document to Mr. Epp and Mr.

Crombie to explain to them what his position is, so they won't go to Montreal to the Young Conservative meeting next month and tell them some more untruths about the position of the Premier of Manitoba? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I am willing to concede that when it comes to the matter of untruths, my honourable friends have the full monopoly on that topic as compared to this side of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN (lnkster): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable, the Minister of Labour.

Can the Minister of Labour advise as to whether he foresees any difficulties in terms of employee cjemands 011 employers in the upcoming round of negotiations, whenever collective agreements expire, by virtue of the standard which has been set by one of the highest paid groups in society in demanding a 49 percent increase in their fees, in terms of the new agreement that they wish to enter into with the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thomp son): Mr.

Speaker, I have to say tha t the particu lar organization that the Member for lnkster is referring to is entering into negotiations, in my opinion, not in 1248

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 a good way. I have said many times in this House, I'v e said it privately to my own wife, that I don't believe you negotiate in the newspapers, I don't believe it is advantageous to either side. All I suppose they were doing was opening up some sort of salvos to get somebody's attention - and I suggest to you that they got our attention - but what credibility will be estabiished to that type of request that they chose for whatever reasons, to get on the front page of the newspapers, is questionable. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd li ke to direct a supplementary question to the Honourable, the Minister of Health and I would ask the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that his colleague has already expressed some disfavour with the manner in which the med ical profession ha s apparently decided to start negotiations and have indicated that they are entitled to a 49-percent increase in fees and I suppose they say that should apply to the steelworker and the packingho use worker and everybody else, could the Minister advise what, if any, protection the Department of Health either has now or envisages with respect to having an alternativ e - and I'm not suggesting any elimination - but alternative forms of medical care services put into place over the long run so that there are alternatives in the form of medical care services available to the people of the Province of Manitoba other than the almost monopoly fee-for­ service plan that is now in place?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud) SH ERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I can only advise the Honourable Member for lnkster that we have no precise firm alternatives that we would suggest could be considered for putting into place but I understand the import and the implications of his question and I'm sure also tha t the Manitoba Med ical Associatio n will understand the implications of that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder whether the Minister of Health wouldn't consider as to whether the Manitoba Medical Association would understand better the implications of the question if the Minister indicated tha t in the long run Manitoba has to consider that there will be alternative forms of medic al care avai lable, one such form being community clinics where doctors are employed by the clinic on a salary basis, a form by the way which is practised in the best tradition in the State of California by a private medical group. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Sp eaker, in a long and ongoing series of consultations and discussions with the Manitoba Medical Association over the past three years I think I have made the case for co­ operation, for reason and tor responsibility; certainly some of these other areas have been touched upon at least peripherally during those discussions.

I don't wish to comment on the 49 percent request that's been publicized by the media; I might say I was surprised to learn of it in the media. lt had not been conveyed to me; it had not been conveyed to the Manitoba Health Services Commission. lt has now I believe been so conveyed at meetings convened today but I rem ind the Honourable Mem ber for lnkster that we are not an island, insofar as health care and profes sional medical com petence is concerned, we live in a continent in which we must compete to maintain our professionals and keep our services at high quali ty and cer tainly any consideration of unilateral action of the type he's suggesting has very serious ramifications and I can only suggest to him tha t it's considered in an abs tra ct way not in a direct way , in terms of implementation at the present time.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge MS. JUNE WESTBURV: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My quest ion is for the Honourable Min ister of Consumer Affairs. Would the Minister tell us whether he has replie d to the letter from the Manitoba Landlords Association, in which they asked for the Landlord and Tenant Act to be amended to change the criteria for landlords to evict their tenants? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON. GARV FILMON (River Heights): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Not only have I not replied to the letter, I have not received it as yet. MS. WESTBURV: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the President of the Manitoba Landlords Association is reported to have mailed it about the th ird week in February, I wonder if the Minister would find out whether it was, in fact, received in his department, since this is a matter of great delicacy and concern to many of the tenants in our various constituencies, Mr. Speaker. A second question then, on another matter, is the Minister prepared to reassure his tenants in the Manitoba Housing and Renewal residences that their rent will not be increased by up to 50 percent in the coming months? MR. FILMON: Thank you Mr. Speaker.

The matter of rents as a portion of income for tenants in subsidized public housing in Manitoba is part of a Federal-Provincial agreement. As the member may or may not be aware, it is up to a maximum of 25 percent of the tenant's income that is allowed to be spent on rent. In the particular case that has been written up in the paper, of the Bluebird Lodge, all of the apartments are subsidized . In all cases, the tenants are paying no more than the 25 percent of their income for rent. I was quite surprised to read the front page

article and, as a result, this morning I asked senior officials in the department to look into the matter; they went through, apartment by apartment, the 13 5 suites that were involved. They found out, among other things, that they had undercharged in a couple of cases; they informed me that a rental increase had not been put through for 15 months, rather than the normal practice of 12 months; they found out as well, that tenants perhaps were not aware of the fact that the payments they were making monthly included such 1249

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 extras as parking, cable television hookup, telephone and hydro and that in no cases was there more than 25 percent of their income being asked for in lieu of their rent. The entire story appears to be based on some rather questionable information. The fact, of course, tha t it originated from a nominated candidate, or a potential candidate for the New Democratic Party in the next provincial election, possibly explains why the information was such.

I can assure the member that if at any time I am informed of a situation that contravenes the policy that's established under the Federal-Provincial agreement that is, if in any case we find that by some error rents are charged at more than 25 percent of the tenant's income, we will rectify it immediately. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MS. WESTBURY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I'd remind the Minister that I admit that he's getting rather clever at twisting questions but th e question was, are any of them going to have a 50 percent increase? That was not answered.

I wonder if the Minister would tell me or tell the House when he expects to be able to answer my question of the 20th of February, relative to the regulations on Pensioners School Tax Assistance and the availab ility, or the use or otherwise, of income-to-rent ratio, whether that is being used as a criterion, please. MR. FILMON: There is no income-to-rent ratio taken into account in the $17 5 Pensioners School Tax Assistance supplement. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Honourable Minister of Housing whether he can provide some explanation for why his government has raised the rents at the Bluebird Lodge accommodation for senior citizens some 15 5 percent in the four years that this government has had tenure and office in this province. Can he provide any rational explanation why that sort of increase has been levied against senior citizens resident in MHRC accommodation? MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to reaffirm that we are following exactly the same policy of rent as a percentage of income that was followed by the previous government.

In fact, they set the rules when they constructed those facilities and if in any cases, any of the rents have gone up by 15 5 percent, it is only because the incomes have gone up by that level and I don't accept the fact without seeing any proof of it, that there are those instances. I suggest that these are things that are being blown right out of proportion and I would like to see the figures before I even accept that. But if they did go up by 15 5 percent, it's only because their incomes have gone up by that amount. The same rate applies. MR. CORRIN: Mr.

Speaker, in alludi ng to the question that was implicit in that response, I can indicate tha t th ere are documented cases and incidents demonstrating that rents for single pensioners have risen sirce 1976, from $39.00 per month by a further supplement, by a further sum of some $71 .00 in the four years of gover nment administration and, Mr. Speaker, I calculate that to be some 15 5 percent increase in four years. Mr.

Speaker, my second supplementary question to this Minister deals with whether any justification can be given for the government's increasing of a single pensioner's rent, by rent-to-income ratios formerly applied of some 21 percent to some 25 or 26 percent - depending on whose advice one follows - in this one past year. Can the Minister advise how much of the government's expensively advertised Manitoba Supplement for pensioners' increase of some $7.82 will be absorbed by these rent increases that are being passed on to MHRC tenants? Can he provide us with some advice in that regard? MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, the short answer is that any amount of money in addition that is given to pensioners in those dwellings, only onecquarter of it can go to increase in rent, so three-quarters of it remains in their hands for their other personal disposal. I'd like to say that in response to the earlier information he gave about the rent going up from $39.00 to $110 , the minimum that a single pensioner receives today, with the combination of the OAS, GIS and the Manitoba Supplement, is $420.72, which is substantially more than it ever was under the previous government in office. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Wellington with a final supplementary. MR. CORRIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask whether this government is concerned that its actions in increasing MHRC rents and cutting back to the bone, Mr.

Speaker, construction of new senior citizens housing in this province, whether that inaction, whether tha t inattentiveness to proper policy will enhance the com petitive advantage of private developers in this respect, which will work to the detriment of non-p rofit housing organizations and public housing organizations trying to serve the needs of elderly renters in this province. Is the government in effect, Mr. Speaker, trying to enhance the competitive position of their friends in the private sector, to the disadvantage of low income senior citizens in this province? MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, despite the fact that that tirade deserves a little response, I'l l say that all the programs that have been brought in by this government have been targeted to the real needs of senior citizens and needy people and have not been the kind of shotgun, wasteful approaches that his government put forward during their years of office. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minis ter respon sible for the Environment, and follows in light of recent allegations and statements outlining serious and potentially hazardous deficiencies in toxic waste 1250

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 management and waste disposal in the province, some of which were made by senior officials of his department. Is the Minister now today, able to provide detail to the House as to any action he has initiated to deal with this problem? In specific, can he update us as to the province's investigation into the construction of a chemical waste disposal facility in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, the comment which the Member for Churchill referred to yesterday by Dr.

Bowen, the Assistant Deputy Min ister in my department, was one that referred to in generality, the fact that we were aware that many types of hazardous wastes were being dumped in a variety of different ways, in small amounts perhaps, but in a variety of different ways, in water courses or in surface streams or in ditches or elsewhere, either accidentally or on purpose in the province. The fact of the matter is that all of that is contrary to the provisions of The Clean Enviromnent Act and these people are doing these things illegally.

But just as you have probably heard police refer to the fact that there is vandalism in our society today, unless and until we are able to find these sources, investigate them and prove who is responsible for them, we are unable to do anything with it. I can assure you that my department takes these matters seriously, that they investigate and they follow up on any incidents that they become aware of and they prosecute where they can identify the source of the pollution. On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, the reference was made to chemical - what was the latter part of the question - toxic waste.

There is a study under way. it's a Federal-Provi ncial joint study that's been commissioned; a consultant has been appointed and a draft of the report I understand has been presented to the various Provincial Governments. I have not yet seen it because my senior officials are reviewing the matter and when they come forward with their assessment of the report and their recommendations, I'l l be happy to share them with the House. MR. COWAN: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister has indicated exactly what the problem is but has failed to answer the question and I would submit has failed to direct his department's energies fully to answering the problem, and that is what is his department doing to investigate these allegations and what is it doing, in specific, to find those persons who are, either advertently or inadvertently, dumping waste into the environment ind iscr imina tely? Can he provide us with some sort of systematic plan of action to deal with what is a growing and I would suggest is a long-reaching and an extensive problem in the Province of Manitoba?

MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that if you could find a way to prevent every illegal action from happening in this society that I would subscribe to that. On the other hand, we are, and I confirm once again that our department is following up on every incident that they become aware of; investigating it and taking it as far as they can to find out where the source is and to proceed, in fact, to prosecute if they do identify the source of the pollution. That's the best that we can do, it's the best that ever has been done, it's the best that the police can do in following up on crime.

These are illegal act ions and we endeavour to find the cause for these illegal actions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously the Minister doesn't accept the statements of his senior officials in respect to this.

But I would like to ask the Minister on a somewhat related subject if he has directed his department to inv estigate the advisability and the appropriateness of disposing of toxic waste by explosion at landfill sites, and if so, can he report to the House as to any conclusions or recommendations his department might have made in respect to this procedure. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, we can get into this in more detail in my Estimates which are to be on the order very shortly in the House.

But I would say that in respons e to his initial alle gation that some members of my department indicated that nothing was being done; the indication in the comment made by Dr. Bowen was that despite our best efforts at controlling pollution and the disposal of hazardous wastes, by acc ident or on purpose, in illegal manners, it is still happening; that was the only essence of his comment.

Secondly, with reference to the explosion of various types of solvents, primarily, that has been done on a test basis in a landfill site in Winnipeg, they're satisfied that it can be disposed of safely in the manner in which it was done under close supervision by people from various areas, including the Fire Commissioner's office, including munitions exper ts, including people from our environmental Branch, includin g people from Workpla ce Safety and Health and so on; they'r e satisfied that in th ese particular instanc es the disposal of the chemical results in carbon dioxide and water and those are elements that are present in the atmosphere and present all around today.

If there are minute amounts of carbon monoxide produced they're not in any greater amounts than you would find in walking down the street today produced by automobiles. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture.

In view of statements that we have heard in recent days about the possibility of a strike coming off at the port of Vanco uver; also the possibility of a strike mate rializing at the Lakehe ad, I wonde r if the Minis ter of Agriculture is prepared to give us information as to whether or not he is prepared to discuss the possibility of moving grain through the Port of Churchill in the event tha t these strikes should come off this spring. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I can indicate to the member that anything that we 1251

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 can do to encourage the movement of grain through Churchill will be done whether it's from strike action at the west coast or at the east port outlets. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary which I would like to now ask the Min ister of Transportation.

Because of the fact of the duality in the way the Federal Go ver nment has the responsibilities divided up, I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation if he would also use his good offices to deal with the Mi nister of Transportation, where they come into play and their responsibility so far as the movement of grain to the Port of Churchill is concerned, in the event of these strikes materializing, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. HON. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, tha t is cer tainly a suggestion tha t I welcome from the Member for Rock Lake and one that is well taken by both myself and my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture. In that regard we are attempting to establish a meeting with the Federal Minister of Transportation and the Prairie Ministers responsible for Transportation and Agriculture, to meet on the very subject matter of the Port of Churchill and its future and its use in the City of Dauphin later on this year, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is directed to the Minister of Health and it arises out of his answer earlier in the question period that since Manitoba isn't an island and has to be competitive in the whole area of health care implying some solicitude for the doctors, could th� Min ister indicate whether this government has adopted one style of negotiations with doctors and another style, a much harder and flexible style, with other workers in the health care area because last year this government's inflexible attitude led to a strike? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to emphasize to my honourable friend that I'm not expressing any solicitude for the doctors, I'm expressing solicitude for the health care needs of Manitobans. MR. PARASIUK: A supplementary to the Minister, Mr. Speaker.

Is the Minister then prepared to send the doctors a copy of the speech that he made in the House where he said that health care workers, other health care workers, have to be prepared to be overworked and under paid; is he prepared to send a copy of that speech to the doctors because he made those comments in relation to other health care workers when this was being discussed last year, Mr. Speaker? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that those doctors who are so interested and health care workers who are so interested have already been circulated widely by my honourable friend, canvassed widely by my honourabl e friend, with fitting and effective and typical distortions of the remarks that I made in the House at that time; it's not necessary for me to comment further, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. One doesn't have to distort the truth, it's damning in its own right. I would ask the Minister if his ... MR.

SPEAKER: Order, order please - th e Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I'd like to ask the Minister if, in reviewing health care costs, the government has been able to ascertain whether doctors incomes have changed positively or negatively in relation to other professions and other health care workers since the introduction of Medicare, in view of the fact that doctors are saying that they have suffered so much since the introduction of Medicare; indeed, if you can recall, Mr. Speaker, the introduction of Medicare was opposed by this government. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, that is a question that emanates from a particular rhetoric that we have all become very familiar with on this side of the House from the Honourable Member for Transcona. it's an impossible question to deal with in question period. I'm prepared to deal with it with him during my Estim ates or in some other suitable forum.

I would only say this, that the costs of our health care system, and that the costs of meeting the increased volume in medical services, hav e far outstripp ed many other increases to which the doctors ha ve referred in the CPI, in the gross industrial wage, and also in terms of their own increases in the fee schedule.

That position can be documented and the government's position, with respect to careful assessment and evaluation of their arguments, relative to the fee sched ule can be supported by the fact, Sir, that our total medical payouts in terms of volume increases, and the increasing numbers of doctors in practice in this province, ha s created a considerable multi­ percentage multiplier increase in the overall costs of health care services and th e doctors will be rem inded of that in their discussions with our negotiators. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to direct a question to eith er the Minister of Consumer Incorporate Affairs or the Minister of Government Services concerning the official opening today of the Environmental Lab. Given that delays cost money and that material and labour costs have risen significantly in the last few years, can the Minister explain why this project which was begun in 1977 was only completed now? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Government Services. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, honourable gentlemen opposite are 1252

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 expecting a great deal. They think that from the time that the design was started and the completion of construction of a building of that nature, as technical as that one, can be completed in much less than four years then they are optimistic indeed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Elmw ood with a final question. MR. DOERN: A second question, Mr. Speaker. I wanted to ask the Minister, and what the Minister says isn't accurate becaus e that program was ground to a halt for a number of months while the government was making a reassessment, so that is not entir ely accurate. Mr.

Speaker, my second question is can the Minister indicate whether there were any lawsuits by contractors as a result of that delay and were there any major program changes from the original design? MR. JORGENSON: Not to my kn owledge, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period having expired we will proceed with Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Logan. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Mr. Chatrman, I WISh to make some substitutions on the commit tee on Statutory Orders and Regulations.

The Honourable Member for Transcona in place of the Honourable Member for Brandon East; the Honourable Member for Rossmere in place of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. SPEAKER: Those changes duly noted. Orders of the day. The Honourable Acting Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Cultural Affairs; and the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment; and the Member for Roblin in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpower. The Honourable Member for Radisson. CO NCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPL V - LABOUR AND MANPO WER MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, J. Wally McKenzie (Roblin). MS. JUNE WESTBURY (F ort Rouge): Mr.

Chairman. 1 have a couple of questions that I tried to get at last night but they came under this particular division. So I'm referred to the Women in Trades project and I asked the Minister last night, reading from his press release of February 20 which said, "The Women in Trades project gave extra support and preparation for about a dozen women interested in careers in skill ed tra des and assi sted th eir emplo yers through wage subsid izat ion and this began last fall".

I just wondered how things are going, if the dozen women are still in the project, if any of them have graduated and have gone on to unsubsidized employment and if he would just give us a progress report on what is happening with that project, please. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Chai•man, I wonder could I do a couple of things. I'll answer your question, there's no question about that. Could you give that to the Member for Churchill? That's the Other Expenditure sheets.

Also I wonder if the Member for Fort Rouge would permit me to make the opening remark on apprenticeship and then get into it. MS. WESTBURY: I'm sorry, go ahead. MR. MacMASTER: I'm not usually much of a regimentalized kind of person but we've got a system going and I'd like to sort of stay with it. The Apprenticeship Program: The Apprenticeship Program is responsible for the administration of The Apprenticeship and Tradesmen's Qualifications Act as well as The Barber's and Hairdresser's Act.

The program enable s individuals to become trained to the level of certified tradespersons as well as provide opportunities for persons with experience and who sati sfies certain conditions th rough qualif ying examinations for certificates of qualification in the designated trades. lt also maintains and upgrades the standard of service in the fields of hairdressing, barberi ng, beauty treat ment and man icuring by conducting examinations and issuing licences in those trades. In the past year, extensive effort has resulted in reactivation of the Apprenticeship Board and Trade Advis ory Comm ittees.

Ongoing liaison and co­ operation with the federal CEIC has been developed in order to address problems of skilled shor tages and to improve quantities of training. The quality of tra inin g is also being enhanc ed by a more comprehensive approach to curriculum development based on extensive industry input. Emphasis on women entering apprenticeship has resulted in the development of a financial incentive training program aimed towards this goal. Activity continues in broadening the numbers of designated trades.

An extensive review has been undertaken of The Hairdressing Act and regulations with a view of upgrading skills within the trade. Staffing: With respect to staffing in the current fiscal year, 19 80-8 1, there are 26 staff man years in the program. We are requesting the same number in 1981- 82. Now to give the member a rundown, the re was 14 women that originally went into that program. Two had terminated for personal reasons. Two terminated but are now enrolled in pre-employment courses at Red River Community College; one is in the auto 1253

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 mechanics and the other one is in painting and decorating.

One is apprenticing with Manitoba Hydro as a power electrician; one is apprenticing with Sherritt-Gordon Mines as an industrial welder; one is a printer at Videoprint; one is a watch repairer in the Canada West Watch Repair at Dauphin; two are auto mechanics; one is autobody repair work; three are taking up carpentry; since then, I'll just check my numbers before I give us the mike if you wish, since then there have been one or two or three more; and there are two pending applications that we think will be thr ough within hours or days for autobody mechanic. MS.

JUNE WESTBURY: Are those being subsidized at the present time, Mr. Chairman? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, they are. MS. WESTBURY: As th ey gradua te from the program and go on to other things are they being replaced by new women coming into the program? MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's like so many other things you start; you think you're doing wel l and you find better ways to do it as you progress through it.

We had thought, and I think I probably said some place that we had taken in 14 to start with; at a later date we'd take in maybe 12 or 14 more; we have now found that the 12 or 14 was fine, initially, working reasonably well, now we are taking on an on-going basis one and two more, like as I just mentioned, there are two virtually ready now to get in, within a week there might be two more and three more and we are just going to continue to build on that program. MS. WESTBURY: Thank you.

I wanted to ask about representation for women on the Apprenticeship Board, the Tradesman Qualification Board or on the Trade Advisory Committee. When I asked about this last year I got the impression in his reply, that he didn't feel it was his responsibility to make those nomin ations but the opinion tha t the Women in Trades Association had and the reason for their requests being directed to him was that it is his prerogative to call for nominations regarding these appointments.

What they asked him to consider, supported by the Provincial Council of Women, was to consider the need to have woman representatives on th ose boards and commit tees before renominating an all-ma le board and perhaps, in calling for nominations, to stipulate that they should include names of appropriate women as well as appropriate men. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, last year I said we'd endeavour to do something about the situation that the Member from Fort Rouge is talking about.

We've found ourselves in the last few years on the Advisory Committees, particularly for the trades, and it goes back many years and there is documentation to establish this that the Advisory Committees just weren't working. In fact, people were not only absent; people had passed away; people had moved out of the provinces. We found that it was in very bad bad shape going back to about the mid- early 70s and for a variety of reasons I suspect it was never really br ought up-to-date, all those committees. We'v e worked very hard at it as the industries and the labour movement will tell you in Manitoba.

Worked to the point where we were probably becom ing aggravator s but we were determined to get those committees filled. We just didn't think apprenticeship programs were going to work well if they weren't filled and we were correct. We have asked people in various organizations to submit names, not one name has been submitted that is a woman, to sit on any of those committees. I'm not sure if I should reverse discrimination, if you wish, and if the pipefitters send in a name or the electricians or the carpenters, just say to heck with you I'm going to put a woman on there.

Time may help us in that area but there is not one woman's name submitted by any organization who, by statute and by right, it just makes sense that you have cer tain organ izations represented on certain committees, and we did not receive one woman's name as nominated. As I said time may change that. What we did do is assured ourself that we now have two women in the Apprenticeship Division on staff with our government. We're very very pleased with the way that has worked out. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MS.

WESTBURY: In calling for nominees did you ask the Women in Trades Association to submit any names? MR. MacMASTER: The Wo men in Trades Association had suggested to us that we attempt to get some women on these Advisory Committees and we sent out letters to the various organizations and to the labour movement saying, there's vacancies, would you update. In fact in a lot of cases we just simply said, look, are you satisfied with who you have on there, give us some names, and we did not again receive the names that the member would like to have seen so that it would appease and satisfy her question. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Honourable Minister can indicate if there have been any ch anges in the apprenticesh ips which indicate reduced time or reduced qualifications in the trades qualifications and what they are, if there are. MR. MacMASTER: it's a two-part question and I'll answer it in two parts. The quality is no t deteriorating in any way, shape or form. We are reviewing and we've had 11 meetings in the last year on curriculum for various trades; one is taking place right now in Brandon.

So we are looking at the curriculum from the trades persons viewpoint and from ind ustry' s view point, the Department of Education, ourselves, we're working on that. Again, it's something that, whether it's 5, 10, 15, 20 years, hasn't been reviewed in a lot of cases and had good solid input from all parties concerned. MR. FOX: Can the Minister indicate if any of the advis ory groups ha ve made any major recommendations in respect to change and could he 1254

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 give us a brief outline of those changes that have been suggested? Maybe I should give you a couple of questions and that would give you a chance to put them into context. The other area was, I was wondering if there has been any elimination in respect to any of the trading programs. I know we've had standbys for years and years and years and some of them we find that there's a dearth of unemployment simply because there just isn't any more of the same call, and 1 won't be specific because I'm sure the Minister has much more and better information than I have.

The other thing was, if there have been any consultations between the Federal and the Provincial Govern ments in respect to new training thr usts because of the changing technology; whether there are any areas that we are getting young people interested in and what those would be· whether there is any research going on in his depart� ent in respect to training development, even before the Federal Government asks for some because Manitoba may be unique in some particular area?

We may have some special interest development in some industries that are just particular to Manitoba, so therefore, we may have to develop some capacity as well in determining where to go. So those are just a few of the questions I'd like some information on for a starter. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the curriculum update is taking into consideration one of the things that the member has mentioned.

For his information th e trade s tha t hav e been updated to date are machinists; now the next two of course are the two new designated ones, so of course they are pretty current, and that's your tool and die, it's just been designated in Manitoba; the mould and pattern maker has just been designated in Manitoba so they are pretty updated; industrial mechanic and the heavy duty mechanic; those five are all updated with a very substantial amount of input from Industry and Labour. MR. FOX: Are we having any devel opment in respect to the electronic and electrical industry?

Considering that we're getting into more and more technological change and automated equipment, are we developing a thrust into that particular area? MR. MacMASTER: Electronics per se, Mr. Chairman, are not presently designated but the industrial electrician's course is one that's on-line to be updated, the same as the ones tha t 1 just mentioned to the member. MR. FOX: The Minister indicated in our earlier discussions that th ere was upgrading in th e construction industry.

Could he inform us whether this is through the regular training program or is this specifically geared to individuals and not necessarily to the trades training? MR. MacMASTER: I understand there are 13 0 tradesmen involved in that particular program. The curriculum was established by the Apprent iceship Division and it's a six-week course. MR. FOX: Is this just a general upgrading course or is this related to a specific trades group or are they a mixture of tradesmen and the courses are just to upgrade them in - well, I wouldn't know exactly what but general . . MR. MacMASTER: Eleven trades are involved. MR.

FOX: Eleven trades. The Minister indicates 11 trades but he's indicated it was 13 2 people. Does that mean there is 11 courses or are they all one course and everyone is getting upgraded equally? MR. MacMAST ER: There are separate trades: two weeks on blueprinting, maths and safety; and the blueprinting is something that tradesmen have said to me over and over again that they really want to get themselves into more. The final four weeks is job specific related upgrading, carpentry, electric, whatever the case may be.

So the first two weeks are general, blueprint, preparation in reading, maths, safety and the last four weeks is upgrading in the specific trade. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I asked the Minister als o whether he had any specific major recommendations from the advisory groups with respect to the development of some particular trades training and I think he didn't get the information from his staff. Would he answer that, please? MR.

MacMASTER : The Machinist Trade Advisory Committee, and I don't know if this is specifically what the member is talking about, but this is one of the beauties of having these committees so active, a lot of good things are happening. They have us looking now at a type of a trade called a machine set-up operator. The tr adespeople th emselv es presently in the trade feel that the other, though it may not be a three or four-year apprenticeship sort of a trade; there is enough talent required that it could be specified as a type of a trade.

They have asked us - that's the Machinist Advisory Committee of Uni on and Mana gement to look at the possibility, and we're working with them now, of establishing a two-year course on machine set-up operations. What we finally call it, what the final title would be, how it would be designated, we can work out the mechanics of that. MR. FOX: Are there any others besides this one particular recommendation, Mr. Chairman? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I think this will be the last.

Now, there may be some that are at the beginning stage; but two that have progressed past the beginning stage, in addition to the machine set­ up operator, is a roofer, in the roofing industry; and the airplane maintenance engineer, the oil space industry has a whole host of semi-sort of trades and the industry and the unions involved in that. I think what they are trying to do is carve out a piece that they feel could be called a trades person's portion of the operation. For years we had millwrights and hel pers and now the example of the ind ustry machinists are millwrights.

An excellent example, I think, is that the machinists themselves in industry are now saying that there is another sort of a trade there called the machine set-up operator. Now, in the aerospace industry they are saying there is a type of a profession or trade, whatever you wish to call it 1255

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 and at the moment that isn't designated or thoughts haven't been given as to how that would happen, but the airplane maintenance engineer is a type that is being looked at at this moment. MR. FOX: In respect to these new developments that th13 Minister indicates, are these going to be diploma courses and then eventually developed into journe yman status or wha t will be their qualifications? Will they be specific to a particular industry that requires these or will they have enough general background to fit into a wider area in respect to finding employment? MR.

MacMASTER: Wel l, we hope tha t we can designate them all, that's the objective, and certainly certify ll]em. The objective is not to train a person precisely for one type of equipment with one type of company, that's not the objective. The objective is to give that person basic knowledge, hopefully some day a diploma or certification or have the trade designated or whatever, so that person is versatile, talented and has a bit of elbow room to move across the street to the other competitor if he so chooses or back into the city or out of the city whatever the case may be.

So I think I know what the member is saying and if he is suggesting that we're trying, or he's hoping that we don't - or at least I hope he's hoping because it concurs with my thoughts - that we're not gearing training in for specific machine for a specific company. We'r e trying to give them the general knowledge as it relates to the operation that happens at that time to be with the company or a particular industry. MR. FOX: Yes, I would concur with the Minister.

I would hope that this would not just be slott ing people because there is a need at a particular place that they would get enough general background so that they could vary their place of employment from a particular plant or even industry. I have one other question before I turn the floor over to someone else. The Minister indicated that he had I believe, one SMY extra in this department; no? But the salaries indicate something like $10 0,000 or more increase. Can the Minister indicate why, if there is no increase in SMYs in the training area? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, we added five people to that division during the course of the year. Two were the women in the Apprenticeship division and three were Critical Skills. We had this Critical Skills Program and negotiated ourselves into what we thought was a heck of a program and just didn't have the horses to do the job. Again we kept working during the course of the year, got ourselves into the Women in Trades Program and didn't have the horses to do the job. MR. FOX: If I understand the Minister correctly then, he has added SMYs or else they were vacant SMYs that he is now filling. You had them before.

You added them, I see. Okay, thank you. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRM:AN: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: How many apprentices does the government or its Crown agency have under the Apprenticeship Program at the present time? MR. MacMASTER: About 101. MR. JENKINS: Of these 101, how many are women apprentices at the present time? MR. MacMASTER: One power engine er with Manitoba Hydro. MR. JENKINS: Is this a new apprenticeship or is this apprenticeship being carried on for . MR. MacMASTER: it's a new one. MR.

JENKINS: And we have no other apprentices in Government Services or anything else - no women apprentices in th ose tra des whatsoever. Is that correct? MR. MacMASTER: Just one at the moment MR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I'm a bit disappointed because I think we had a fairly good discussion on this last year and I think I pointed out at that time that while I'm all in favour of women getting into the apprenticeship program I think that the government has to be one that has to set the example. I'm very disappointed in Government Services that there are no women apprentices at the present time.

I would hope tha t the Minister would draw this to the attention of the Min ister of Government Services, hopefully that we would set the kind of example - it's all very well to say to industry that they should be setting up these programs and I think there is incentiv e programs for them to do so, but we certainly can't expect the general public to follow if we're not prepared to show the way. I must express extreme disappointment that we as a government, an employer of people in various fields of industry because there are various services that are supplied by the government itself.

We have carpenters, electricians, I imagine some bricklayers and not being able, and that seems what it is, either it's an inabili ty to attra ct them or it's an unwillingness to even participate in the program. The only woman apprentice that we have at the present time in any government agency or Crown corporation is one, at the Manitoba Hydro. I think that is an appalling record.

When we are setting up all these programs we should be leading and showing the way to the rest of the province in the field of making it poss ib le for th ose who wish to enter into apprentices hip programs , I think that the government should· be the leader and showing the way in this field. Unfortunately, we haven't made ... I don't know maybe we had none last year - I guess that's 100 percent by getting one, but that in itself is a very very poor record, Mr. Chairman.

I would certainly hope that the Minister when he's in contact with his colleagues in Cabinet and especially those tha t are employing people where there is apprenticeship programs, that he would try and stress onto them especially, that there should be at least an effort made to recruit people who are willing to serve apprenticeships and I must say that again, I express extreme disappointment at the record that this government has achieved in this field. 1256

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 MR. MacMASTER: I have no disappointment in the efforts that we've created in this particular field. Last year in total government Crown agencies there were 90 people involved in apprentices - none were women. This year we've got 101 and one is a woman. Last year th ere were 11 in the entire province and the Member for Logan said to me, I hope that number's up next year - well there's 23 this year. I'm not saying that's enough but I'm saying that's a substantial move over the course of a year.

Within government agencies we don't intend to create or go force somebody to create a position for an apprentice. There are all kinds of opportunities for government that when openings become available and there's lots of opportunities within industry for women to get into those trades. We're promoting it, never promoted before and I have difficulty accepting the member saying that he's appalled at the record. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, we went up from 90 to 101 apprentices serving with the government and its Crown corporations and Crown agencies, of those new 11 positions we got one.

I believe that we went up from what was it 11 to 23. I would say that the private sector has certainly in their effort done a much better job than what the government has done. The Minister says that he is spending a lot of effort and I'm not disputing that he isn't, but I wish he would spend a little bit of effort convincing people within the purview of government. Mr.

Chairman, if the increase, and there was none, I quite agree with the Minister th ere were no women serving apprenticeships in government service whatsoever, but to have one, and we have been able to have an increase of 12 in the province and that's a start, it's disappointing I have to admit it is disappointing but I think that, and I have to reiterate, you cannot expect the private sector to do the job that you expect them to do unless you're prepared to show them the way.

An increase of one person, and I guess if we hadn't of raised the issue last year perhaps we wouldn't even of had that one, I don't know how we got that one person.

But was there any effort made by the government and by the Crown agencies and Crown corportions when there were 11 new apprenticeships available, how ha rd did the government work, and his depar tment, work at making this kno wledge to women I don't even kn ow wha t the apprenticeships were, maybe they were not of a type that women could do, I don't know, but I don't think there's any apprenticeship at the present time that women, from what I read and what I hear, are prepared to do anyth ing, any job, and they'r e prepared to take their lumps as well as the male sector of the population.

But just what input did the Minister's department have in gett ing tha t one person involved in an apprenticeship program out of the 11 positions that became available? I'm not saying to the Minister they should create some special conditions whereby these people are going to be in that position, but of those 11 positions that became open how much input was put in by his department and the apprenticeship people within his department to make sure that at least these people or the people who were interested had an opportunity to make an application to serve that apprenticeship within the government services. MR.

MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I'm not running around the province with private enterprise or with government ordering them and I don't intend to. What we do intend to do is continue to encourage. I have been in touch with virtually every Minister that has responsi bili ty for depa rtments who have tradesmen working in them and made them aware of the fact that we have a program, and made them aware of the fact that when vacancies occur that we would appreciate them giving conside ration for women . We don't intend to go around ordering people to do it; that's not the way to get into the program. it's a new area.

En couragement and support is what is required and that's what we're doing. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I never intimated at any time tha t the Minister should tell them. I intimated to the Minister that he should make them aware. MR. MacMASTER: They are aware. MR. JENKINS: Now I would like to ask the Minister a further question. Of the 11 positions that were open how many women applied for those? Is there any way that this type of information is available? How many people in total app lied for those 11 apprenticeships that were available last year?

Does the Minister have any knowledge of that or is there any way that we can find that out? MR. MacMASTER: I have no knowledge of how many people applied for those positions. MR. JENKINS: Is it possible for the Minister to find out? MR. MacMASTER: I Suppose I could, if the member wants that information. MR. JENKINS: Yes, Mr. Ch airman, I would appreciate it very much, at least to satisfy in my own mind that there was a fair opportunity given to those people. If there were 11 openings, were these openings bulletined for an apprenticeship program? Just how were these programs advertised?

Were they by word of mouth, or was there adverts, or just how were these 11 apprenticeship openings made to the gener al public so that the y could make application, be they male or female? MR. MacMASTER: I suspect it's done in a variety of ways throughout the departments and the Crown agencies. I don't have a set formula of how they fill their apprenticeship positions. MR. JENKINS: Could the Minister ascertain what methods were used? Is that possible? MR. MacMASTER: Certainly. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Mini ster, I would appreciate having that.

Now in your report on Page 61, where it states that joint effort with the Federal Government Canada Employment and Immi gration Commi ssion , it increased apprentice ships in the critical sh ortage trades with 18 0 provi ncially registered apprentices, also on contract under the Critical Trades Skills Training Program. Of those 18 0 1257

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 apprentices that were provincially registered, were any of these women apprentices? MR .. MacMASTER: Part of the answer is, yes. That number within our book can be updated from 18 0 to presently 19 3 and I'll get the other number if the member wishes to carry on with his questions. I'll get that number of how many women are involved in that. MR. JENKI NS: Yes, thank you. Could the Minister enlighten us just what these critical shortage trades were?

Are they new trades, are they old trades, or what are those trades that we seem to be critically short of - skilled trades here in the Province of Manitoba? Of the 193, just where would they fit? MR. MacMASTER: I'll get that answer. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill MR. JAY COWAN: I'd like to ask the Mi nister if he can ind icate or if he can specify as to where the 14 women who were in the Women in Trades Program fit into the figures tha t he gave us before. He indicated last year tha t ther e were 11 women apprentices in the province and this year he indicates that there are 23.

Are the 14 that are currently participating in that program considered to be part of those 23 women apprentices in the province? MR. MacMASTER: Well, the 14 is now 12. I outlined that before and the 12 are part of the 23. Now if you want, I can answer the memb er's question.

The critical trades that we were dealing with - we're still looking for the number of women, I haven't got that answer - is, heavy duty equipment mechanic, industrial electrician, industrial instrument mechanic, industrial mechanic, industrial welder, machinist, tool and die maker, mould and pattern maker, industrial sheet metal worker, air frame mechanic, aero­ engineer mechanic. That's the critical trades we have been dealing with. MR.

COWAN: As we were unable to write that list down as quickly as it was presented, I wonder if that's a pamphlet, if he could provide us with a copy or if he could go over the last four. I got up to tool and die maker and then . . . MR. MacMASTER: Mould and pattern maker, industrial sheet metal worker, air frame mechanic, aero-engineer mechanic. MR.

COWAN: To go back to the previus question, if the 12 participants in Women in Trades Program are considered to be part of the larger body of 23 participants, then what we see is that the private sector hasn't significantly increased the number of women apprentices with them on their own. In fact, if you separate the Women in Trades group out from the 23, you end up with the number of 11 , which was the number last year. I'd ask the Minister if he would care to comment on that observation. MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I can't get flak from both sides of the question.

The Member for Logan says the private sector and he's giving me heck for them picking up all the slack with the women in trades, and now the Member for Churchill says that the private sector isn't picking it up, so because I think of the emphasis we've put on the Women in Trades Program, that the private sector certainly has co-operated to this extent. As I said, ther e's a couple more pending right now and hopefully there will be one or two or three or four or five every month, whatever the case may be. There may be substantially more than that. MR.

COWAN: I cer tainl y don't want to be interpreted as speaking against the philosophy of the Women in Trades Program. However, the point I think that has to be highlighted is that on their own initiative, the private sector has remained exactly where it was in the previous year and that's with a total of 11 apprentices that were brought into the system on their own initiative, or part of the system on their own initiative, without government subsidy.

The Women in Trades Program has accounted for 12 more and we certainly do encourage that sort of support mechanism to enable more women to get into the skilled trades areas. However, I don't want a misinterpretation to remain on the record. I think perhaps even I'v e clarified that for the Member for Logan as well, that in fact, there were only 11 women apprentices on their own in the private sector, so we haven't seen a significant increase, so if I'm going to give flak to the Minister, I'm going to give it on that basis.

And not to say that the Minister is responsible for the private sector in respect to apprentices, women apprentices, but to say that the Minister promised us educational programs, the Minister promised us PR programs last year which were all going to be directed towards involving more women in the skilled trades areas and apprenticeships and if we separate the one program, which is a good program in phi losophy, out from the global figure, we see that it just hasn't happened. lt hasn't happened, I would suggest, because we haven't seen that sort of massive PR program, we haven't seen that sort of direct pressure applied to the private sector in whatever way to ensure tha t more women are brought into the apprenticeships.

We have seen the Federal Government start to do something in respect to this problem, through their TV advertising and through their media campaigns and if the Minister wants to make a comment on that because maybe we can both take a shot at the Federal Government. MR. MacMASTER: We have read some things. MR. COWAN: That's right.

The Minister says we have read some things and we've some ads, but we haven't seen the result yet but I would suggest to him and without want ing to be taken as giving widespread to the Federal Government's efforts in this area, I do think the advertising that they are starting to promote is an essential part of a larger picture. lt by itself will not provide the solution that all of seek, but it is a part of the picture and I would say if the government failed, it failed in that respect; if the Provincial Government failed, it failed in that respect and the Minister had suggested that there would be those sorts of public relations efforts and they are important, because if the Minister is saying he is not go on with the affirmative action programs, quotas, whatever, and if the Minister is saying that 1258

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 it's the private sector tha t has to make th ose choices, and if the Minister is saying that for all his enticements and all his encouragements within his own government, all he has been able to do over the last year is get one woman apprentice into the apprenticeship programs in the government, then what he is saying is that those mechanisms are not working very well and we need to develop other mechanisms. Now we would disagree on mechanisms.

We have different ideas on what mechanisms should be put in place to encourage and to support women getting into the trades, but at least the Minister should have some program.

What he has now outside of the Women in Trades Program is not succeeding and if he's going to rely upon public money and subsidy to get women into the trades, then he is going to find that he will be limited by his own budget and that he will never be able to bring about the circumstances and the conditions which will answer the inequity that is already there that will provide access, the great deal of access, that is necessary for women to get into the trades.

Is he planning to come out with a public campaign, media campaign, to supplement his own Women in Trades Program to make that program more effective and as well to provide some incentive and encouragement to women who may be in the labour force right now and may be wondering about their future and may be trying to consider apprenticeship as a part of their own future, as well as to provide the sort of public support that is necessary to enable them to get into a field where they have been disadvantaged and discriminated against for decades? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, we sometimes find ourself not liking statistics and we often use statistics to our own advantage, we all agree to that. I notice that the Member for Churchill, who does a lot of statistical work, isn't saying that there's an excess of 100 percent increase in women involved in trades. I think he may or may not be pleased next year if there was another 100 percent increase, full well knowing that within a few days and we'll even count them, that there's going to be at least two more, so that would be 25. Maybe next year, if it was another 10 0 percent, that would be 50.

The numbers become extremely interesting in two or three years and I don't know whether I have the patience for that or not, but it's interesting. We have the two women within the Apprenticeship Division, which I know the former government gave some consi deration to do doing that, precisely putting a woman in that division to help promote it and for whatever reason chose not to, but we find that's going to be of great advantage to us.

We think the 23, 24, 25, whatever it is, number of women that are involved today, as they do well, and we think they are going to do well, that in itself will help break down some of the barriers that other people are watching and looking and are they going to make it sort of a thing? Will they survive and eventually become apprentices and become tradespeople? That is part of the whole scenario. The two women tha t we do hav e wit hin the Apprenticeship Division have done a lot of PR work throughout the province. For example, they have had speaking engagements at Red River Community College.

Keewatin Community College; they have had meetings with the trades advisory groups in different trade areas; example, heavy duty equi pment, mechanic and electrical; they have been speaking with teachers in the vocational education system; they have met with supervisors and union people from the, example, the Atomic Energy Area in Pinawa; they have spoke up in Dauphin at Career Days of vocational high schools; they have met with and spoke in Sherritt-Gordon, Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake, of course, is Sherritt-Gordon; in Brandon at the Assiniboin e Community College; Portage la Prairie; and the y got a long list of speaking engagements throughout the province.

We really feel that is going to reap rewards for us in familiarizing people in various parts of the prov ince geographically and in different sectors of our society as t0 the cred ibility of women being considered within the trades area. MR. COWAN: Wel l, I'm pleased with the 10 0 percent incr ease in the number of women apprentices that have come about as a result of the Women in Trades Program, which we support in principle.

I'm not certain that there haven 't been problems with that; I'm not certain that there won't always be problems with new innovative programs, but cert ainly the principle behind tha t and the phi losophy beh ind that program we support. However, I am appalled by the fact that less than 1 percent of the appr entic es in the gov ern ment apprenticeship program and less than 1 percent of the apprentices in the private sector apprenticship programs are women. Ther e hasn't been any significant increase in those particular areas so the statistics cut both ways, certainly.

We do appreciate the Women in Trades Program, the concept of the Women in Trades Program at least; however, it is not meeting the need and that's what we're saying. it's not enough, it is something but it is not enough. We will also say that the speaking engagements by the two apprenticeship counsellors whom are women and who were hired by the government in order to promote, at least in part, the entry of women into the trades field is another area that we support.

However, we say again, it is not enough, because as many speaking engagements as they can get, they are going to find that they can't get enough, that they can't speak enough, that they can't be all the places that they should be and there has to be some sort of effort to support them.

There has to be some sort of public relations campaign; there has to be some sort of concentrated and comprehensive effort on the part of the government, because what we are trying to do, and the Minister is fully aware of that, is undue decades, perhaps centuries, perhaps as far back as histor y of discriminatory practices, of ideas and concepts that have been ingrained through practise and philosophy for hundreds of years. Two women going around the province speaking about the advantages of women into trades, women entering into the trades field is not enough.

There has to be other programs that complemented their work and the program that has provided us with 10 0-percent increase in the number of women appr ent ices in the priv ate sector apprenticeship programs is not enough; especially, if at the same time the number of women in the rest of the private sector apprenticeship program outside of the Women in Trades Program has decreased as a 1259

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 percentage, which it has. There were 11 last year; there are 11 this year but there are more apprentices this year. Now I would suggest that decrease is insignificant, that it does not represent a sizable percentage decrease, but the fact is that there are only 11 that are outside of the program. So while the program is to be supported, the other efforts which must complement that program aren't there and we're seeing evidence that they aren't there. That is a subject which we have debated in the past; we will debate aga in.

We encou rage the Minister where we think the programs are good programs but we certainly reserve the right to be appal led by the lack of progr ess. I'll allo w the Minister an opportunity to answer that if he wants to before I go onto another area. He indicates not. I'd like to talk to an area that I know is of special concern to the Minister and myself and that's mining as a trade, because we've seen a lot of problems in that particular apprenticeship program.

So before presenting my remarks I'd ask the Minister if he can provide us with an update as to what's happening with that program and what efforts he's undertaken in the past year to correct some of the problems with that program, efforts which were promised to us during the last Estimates and I think the Estim ates preceding that one. MR. MacMASTER: Well the miners as a trades program has some problems. lt didn't have at first; it was a new concept; it was accepted by the entire industry and the union leadership and I think the members.

We now find a variety of positions, some by local unions in different areas, some are very forceful about wanting a trade, some I think are finding that a lot of the people working in the working in the mines are necessarily desirous of having the trade. So there are some inadequacies as to the approach by the industry as a whole. We have been trying for a long time to get the parties together to set up a series of meetings with all those concerned and we think we have ach ieved that arrangement now.

On March 16 th we will be mee ting wit h management of HBMS and with the unions of that particular company, that's in Flin Flon; on March 17 th we will be meeting with management and unions in Snow Lake; on March 18 th we are going to be meeting with lnco management and the unions at lnco; on March 19 th we are going to be in Sherritt­ Gordon meeting with management and unions; and on March 20th we will be in Leaf Rapids meeting with management and the unions.

We hope after those series of extensive meetings that we can come out with some conclusions as to where that entire industry wants to go with that trade . . . MR. COWAN: Well these meetings, and I'd ask the Minister to be as honest and forthright as he can be without having to take on the rogues of a prophet, might these meetings mean the end of the program as it exists today? Might these meetings mean the end of the entire concept of mining as a trade? Is it in that much trouble right now? Are we going to lose this program? MR. MacMASTER: I suppose there are two sides to every question for every position.

The Member from Churchill has suggested that possibly, or I don't know if that's his words, but what he is saying, coming out of these meetings there is that possibility that that may be entirely the end of the miner as a tradesperson in the three, four, five major northern centres, mining centres. I suppose that possibility is there. The other possibility on the extreme is that they all may concur that it's a great program and with some slight variations it can be carried forth and it might become more attractive to management and to the unions and to the people working in the mines.

There are three parts and I have always said that even as a union leader. There is the management and the union leadership, who are very desirous of having policy programs, principles, that type of thing and then there are those who are directly affected and tha t doesn 't al ways concur in total .

Your members, your leadership by and large is symbolic of the exact feeling of the men and women in the plants, but sometimes the men and women in the plants either, because for their own personal reasons or because they feel that something is outdated, inappropriate or not prepared to carry on or not int eres ted , whatever the case may be, you sometimes find that the union leadership may still maintain that the idea is a hell of a good one, but for some reason that membership just isn't quite buying that particular direction that you're taking.

At these meetings we may find - we may find, I don't know, we may find a whole bunch of things. That's why we set up the meetings - but the union leadership themselves may say, you know we still believe in the program, we want to vary it, we want to make it more attractive, we want to introduce new approaches to it, because obviously, and this again bears out what I'm trying to say and I don't know if I'm using the right words, but obviously the mem bers hips of th ose unions are not at this moment, for one reason or another attracted to enter the trade.

Now we can say it's because of this, because of that, because of the other things. Let's find out at those meetings before we draw any conclusions. MR. COWAN: That indeed is the understatement of this set of Estimates, that the miners themselves are not accepting this program.

I note from the statistics that there were no new registrations in 19 80 or October 31, 19 79, October 31, '80 for this particular program, that there were three cancellations and only two completions with the total of 13 active apprenticeships and that's gone down from 18 the year previous, which is up from eight in 19 78. but one must go back to '77 where it was 18 and '76 where it was 31, in order to get a more accurate picture of what's been happening trend-wise.

The Minister says that these meetings are intended and designed to come up with either some solutions or possibly the decision that the program is not a viable program. How many times has the Mining as a Trade Advisory Council met during the past year? MR. MacMASTER: I understand they met in January of 1981 and I haven't got the record for '80, but I suspect there wasn't too many meetings and if we go back in the records we may find one but I don't know. But they did recently meet in Janu ary of this year. MR. COWAN: Well the obvious question to the Minister is why hasn't that committee been called 1260

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 into action to deal with what is obviously some very serious problems in the apprenticeship program, problems which the Minister has acknowledged for a couple of years running now, problems which we all knew were existing and problems which the Minister suggested that he was going to be forwarding to the Advisory Council last year in hopes that they would be able to come up with some answers? With that intention why is it that that committee only met, perhaps the one time in 19 80 and I'm not certain and the one time in 1981 so far? ' MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, sometimes you find when things are not working well, and this trade hasn't been working for a long period of time, that you should may be get right back to the bottom of the thing, right back to the guts of it and find out really what is happening. There has been informal discussions take place. This one meeting I'm talking about is an official meeting. We have had informal discussions during the course of the last year with unions and with management. MR. COWAN: Can the Minister inform us as to who is on the Mining as a Trades Advisory Council? MR. MacMASTER: Do you want to ask another question? MR.

COWAN: Yes, the Min ister indicates that he will provide me with that informat ion if in the meanwhile I ask another question. Well, the other question was going to flow from that because I think what we have on that committee is representation from both management and from labour and I would hope there is some representation from government on that committee as well. If that's the case then it would seem to me that that committee is eminently suited to deal with the situation.

They have been people who have been chosen from the leadership of those groups and to represent those groups, to bring forward the ideas and suggestio ns and criticisms of their own membership, whether it be industry membership or union membership and that they should have been entrusted with an opportunity to try to come to grips with this program and the problems within this program in a more concrete way. Having given the Minister an opportunity to come forward with some names I' d ask him if they are now available? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr . Chairman.

There was also a difficulty and I can't tell the member whether it was a two-month or four-month or a five-month problem in gett ing names sub mitte d for this particular committ ee. The names, the employer repr esent ativ es are: Francis Yo ungwo rth, R. McComb and G. Marshall. The employee representatives are: Fred Roman, Lex Lovatt and Rex Osmand. MR. COWAN: Are there government members on that committee, Mr. Chairperson? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, the Dir ect or of Apprenticeship and Training is on it plus two others. MR.

COWAN: Now the Mi nister says that there were difficulties in getting names for that particular committee. Can he be more explicit as to what those difficulties were and how they were dealt with? MR. MacMASTER: There was a period of time that we were waiting for nominations and 1 haven't got those dates. MR. COWAN: But the committ ee has been a functioning committee for six months, nine months, four months? That's a question to the Minister; how long has that committe e been a functioning committee? MR. MacMASTER: About last March or April we aske d for nom inatio ns to that committee.

We received all the nominations by December this year and they had their first meeting in January. MR. COWAN: So the fi rst meetin g of that committee was January of this year; is that correct? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, this new group. MR. COWAN: Of the new group - there was a group previous to that? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, there was in years gone by and I haven't got records of that. I suppose I could dig them out some place. MR. COWAN: I don't thi nk th ose records are important right at the moment .

However, we discussed this matter last year in some detail and we knew there were problems, we discussed the year previous and we knew there were problems, and it just seems strange to me that with that awareness and that interest - and I'm not accusing the Minister of not being interested in this because 1 know he is - he has told us he is and I accept those assura nces sincerely. I am somewhat confused by the fact that we didn't get a meeting till January of 19 81.

Now that we have a committee in place the first thing that appears to be happening is that the Minister's departme nt is circu mventing the committee, actually subverting the purpose of the committee by holding meetings in Flin Flon, Snow Lake, Thompson, Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids with industry people, with unio n individuals.

I'm not suggesting that's not an appropriate action on the part of the Minister but I am suggesting that it is certainly going to take the wind out of the sails of the committee members, and it would make them, 1 believe, honestly wonder why they are sitting in the committee, why there is that committee. It took so long to put it together and then once it gets together there seems to be a circumv ention of the purpose of that commit tee. Perhaps the Mi nister would comment on that analysis, perhaps I'm wrong in the way I perceive the process. MR.

MacMASTER: The member is wrong and 1 can't fault him except that I guess we've been saying so much we haven't been keeping track of what we said. I said to the member a long time ago, like 30 minutes ago, it seems a long time ago - that there were a large number of varied viewpoints on this particular topic. Her e we now finally have a committee and the varied viewpoints are very evident 1261

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 within that committee. So we have said fine, if the viewpoints are that varied let's go out to the field and go right into the towns and into the industries' areas and that's what we intend to do. We intend to go to Flin Flon, Snow Lake, Leaf Rapids, Lynn Lake and Thompson and talk to the union leadership in th ose areas, to management th at are direct ly effected with this program and find out just where the problems are and see if we can resolve them. I don't think it's a matter of circumventing it.

All these people on an individual basis during the course of our tours through Northern Manitoba, these people will be involved one way or another because they all come out of that industry. MR. COWAN: Are these persons going on the committee, the committee members, going to be at each of the meetings in a formalized way? Are they going to be a part of each of the meetings, the whole committee, when the employees of the Minister are meeting with HBMS and the unions at Flin Flon, Snow Lake? MR.

MacMASTER: No they won't be, they have all come as representatives of the particular group they are representing, they all have their own viewpoints, their viewpoints have been express ed, their viewpoints differ and vary so we're now going back to the areas throughout the north to deal with more directly I suppose with a broader group to see if there isn't some consensus someplace within that area. MR. COWAN: So the com mittee is now non­ functional. MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR. COWAN: The committee is now non-functional.

The question to the Minister ... the Minister says that the committee is not going to be a part of those discussions, that he is in fact going to go out and make requests for greater representations which is sometimes an appropriate action and I don't want to comment on the specifics on this without having had more time to review and analyze. However, if he is going out for that greater representation and he is not including the com mittee as a part of tha t process, he is making the committee non-functional. MR. MacMASTER: it's a matter of semantics I guess and a matter of words.

I don't think it's non­ functional. I said to the member that each one of those people come from a particular area in the north. Each one of those p�ople when we arrive at their particular site will be involved and the total findings of that trip will be brought back to that committee. MR. COWAN: Is this - perhaps the more appropriate quest ion is - who is going to be representing the government on that tour which is coming up starting March 16 and ending March 20? MR. MacMASTER: The Dir ector, the Assistant Director and the Apprenticeship Counsellor. MR.

COWAN: Are those people then going to make a formal report to the Mining as a Trades Advisory Committee? MR. MacMASTER: That's what I said. MR. COWAN: They will be doing that. Then that Mining as a Trades Advisory Committee which is ... we'll tape that report which is obviously done to represent the varied viewpoints that they already represent and try to put it together into some structure, or is that going to be done before they receive the report?

Are the Ministers' representatives going to be not only taking down verbatim the criticisms, the suggestions, the positive approaches but are they also going to be trying to compile that into what they perceive to be the proper approach? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I think that the members that I'v e mentioned that are going on that trip are quite capable of recording the viewpoints tha t are expres sed, the criticisms and the constructive suggestions that are put forward by all the groups that they are going to be dealing with and bringing that back and sitting down with the committee and going over it. MR.

COWAN: I didn't intend nor do I believe my remarks were in any way suggestive that the people weren't credible and competent. I'm just trying to determine the need for a committee if in fact this sort of process is ongoing. I would suggest to the Minister that it's the action which may or may not be appropriate, is too late nonetheless. That is not to say that we can't salvage the program; I certainly hope that we do salvage the program. I certainly hope that we do salvage the program but it should have been done a long time ago.

That committee should have been functioning a long time ago and there is something wrong somewhere if for the past year we have been without an Advisory Council to assist the Minister in what appears to be a very difficult process of making that program acceptable to industry, to the unions and to the miners themselves who will be participants in that program. I think the Minister has to accept - well, the Minister doesn't have to accept any criticism but I think some criticism is warranted in respect to the fact that we have not had tha t committee meeting.

We were promised that committee would be meeting; we knew that there were problems a long time ago and it is an area of grave concern. We're not just talking about a concept here; we're talking about a program that can make a major difference in the working lives of individuals who labour in the mines. One of the reasons for that program in the first place was the fact that it was felt that through this sort of training and apprenticeship program that they could stabilize the work force a bit.

That has not been as necessary a process in the last couple of years because the employment levels in the mining industry have been dropping and that has a stabilizing effect on the work force, in the labour force, in that industry in that way. We don't have the high levels of turnover that you have during booms and so the work force has stabilized on its own because of economic conditions.

But another reason was to provide training as to the proper procedures to follow so that the mines would be a little safer place to work and I have to note that we just received the Accidents at Mines Report from the Department of Energy and Mines for 1979 for the year ending December 31, 1979, and 1262

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 there has been no decreas in the frequency per million man hours worked as far as injuries are concerned. We made no progress in that particular area and I think that is an indictment of a lack of activity and a lack of effort and a lack of positive programs which will in fact deal with that serious problem of workpla ce safety and health in the mining industry. This was only one facet of a multi approach to dealing with that problem.

This was training that was necessary to ensure that workers were well aware of the safe way in which to work underground, but the fact is that this program hasn't been work ing. The fact is that the frequency rate is staying the same; I'm not certain about the severity rate but I would imagine that it is either the same or in the general area. We do find that there is all that much more need for this program to succeed and if I sound a bit pessimistic it's because I'm a bit worried and a bit concerned that not enough is being done to ensure the success of the program.

I'm looking forward to being able to enter this Estimates debate next year and to discuss what has been done and discuss in more positive terms this particular program. But I do have to criticize the Min ister; I don't believe that enough has been done over the past year despite the assurances of last year. I don't want to have to believe that enough won't be done over the upcoming year despite the assurances of the Mi nister of this year. I would like to see the statistics which are sometimes a valuable tool and mechanism to analyse programs, appear more positively in next year's report.

I know that there are many concerns about this; I've talked to the miners themselves. I'v e been part of larger discussions where it has been discussed and I know that it is an area that is very complex and 1n its complexity is that much more difficult but that much more urgent because it is an area where there has to be a number of steps taken immediately 10 order to provide the support and provide the proper ap proaches to making certain that this program does succeed.

So I don't mean this as a criticism of the Minis ter personally but I do hope that he will be able to accomplish more in the upcoming year than he has been able to accomplish in the past three years in respect to this particular program. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the root of the whole problem may be just the non-desire of the people involved to participate in the program. It's pretty tough to try and force something on people who just are displaying absolutely no interest in it and that seems to be really at the bottom of the problem.

I haven't had an opportunity to review the injury figur es that the member has mentioned. I suppose there's three viewpoints, if it's decreased or happy if it's held its own, and you're not as unhappy as you are if the number of injur ies have incr eased. I would have to look at it, review it and comment on it at a later date but the member should be aware that I have preached from one end of this province to the other that regardless of the degree of injury that people should report it.

Friends of mine in various industries tell me that they are in fact starting to do that whether it's a nick in the finger or a kink in the back, because damn it all, I was involved in too many compensation cases over the years where the kink in the back happened on a Tuesday morning and it was the following Wednesday or a week later that they tried to relate it to an accident. So that message has certainly been preached and fostered by myself throughout the province. Maybe, just maybe in some instances that has a bearing on the accidents that are being reported.

It was always something I advocated myself regardless of how minor you thought it was, you should sure as hell report it to somebody. That wasn't always the case. MR. COWAN: Certainly I agree with the Mini ster in that and if by our words here we can encourage more accurate and better reporting of injur ies by workers I think we'll be serving a useful function.

However, it has no bearing on the figures or it would have an extremely insignificant bearing on the figur es which are presented to the Min ister and perhaps the problem is that I didn't explain in full what frequency rate we were using and that is the frequency rate for lost-time injuries and finger nicks and back sprains or a kink in the back are not usually lost-time injuries. In other words, if an injury is going to be a lost-time injury, it's going to be reported one way or the other and we're not talking about reports in respect to medical aid only.

So the frequency rate which I presented earlier would not be altered by better reporting mechanisms. There may be other influences on that, that I don't know about but it would cert ainly not be altered by more people reporting nicks in fingers. It would be only be altered by more people reporting injuries which resulted in lost time so I would suggest that the Mini ste r's remarks which are well taken and important in other contexts, in this context are a significant factor. I' ve been looking desperately while we've been talking, for last year's comments on this particular area and have just found them.

Wh at I had suspected is confirmed in writing in the Hansard and that was that last year the Min ister said, and I quote, "We are in the midst now of going out and meeting with the companies and with the unions involved to see what we can do about that particular trade." What the Mini ster is telling me this year is that he is in the midst of going out and meeting with the companies and with the unions involved to see what they can do about that particular trade.

Now one is a di rect quote, the other is paraphra se of the comments of the Mi nister and that's why we are extremely concerned that somethin g actually be done this year instead of just suggesting that there are things being done. Is the Mini ster telling us that last year they didn't have those meetings between the companies and the unions in respect to this

part icular tr ade or is he te llin g us that th ose meetings were unsuccessful? MR. MacMASTER: Wel l, for the sake of repeat ing myself, I said that we had inf ormal discussi ons during the course of the last year with unions and with management. This year I've given the member a formalized

schedule of when we're officially meeting with the companies to get their viewpoints and with the unions to get their viewpoints. We'll document, there'll be no more informality. It'll be very formal and we'll document just what they perceive to be the problems and what can be done to correct it. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to get back to the two apprenticeship counsellors that 1263

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 the Minister hired specifically to help prospective women apprentices to locate and retain employment for apprenticeships. What has been the success rate of the counsellors to date? This is quoting diectly from your report here on Page 61. How successful have these two people been in helping prospective women apprentices locate and retain employment leading to apprenticeship? MR. MacMASTER: Well, the two women have done a variety of things.

The first thing we had to do was to totally familiarize them with the operation of government, the operation division, and we had to get them throughout the province so they knew really what it was all about. Tha t was a fair ly major underta king. I gave the mem ber a large list of speaking engagements they have undertaken and they are working with the women that we have in the program at the moment. MR. JENKINS: Did these two counsellors have any input into the recruitment of the one person who is now serving an apprenticeship for the Manitoba Power Commission . . . or the Manitoba Hydro?

Did the y hav e any input into that recru itment and preparing the way for this person to be able to secure an apprenticeship with the Manitoba Hydro? MR. MacMASTER: No, they came on after that. They are now presently involved in the recruitment and assistance of women that will be coming into the trades. MR. JENKINS: Have we any women tha t hav e graduated, received a diploma or journ eyman's certificate, of women who ha ve been servi ng appr_enticeships in the Province of Manitoba, and how many are actively working at the trades that they served their apprenticeships in? Is there any follow-up?

The graduates; are they able to secure emp loyment after the y ha ve finished their apprenticeship training, written their examinations, their practical tests that they take in order to secure a journeyman's paper? How many have graduated? How many are still actively working at the trade in which they graduated? MR. MacMASTER: There are six, Mr. Chairman, and a few months ago they were active. I haven't got an up-to-d ate recent report on whether they're active in the trade that they undertook. MR.

JENKINS: Could the Minister enl ighten the comm ittee on what trades the y succes sfully completed their apprenticeship in? MR. MacMASTER: Heavy duty equipment mechanic, industrial instrument mechanic, industrial mech anic, industrial welder and motor vehicle mechanic. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Mi nister for that information. One of the trades that evidently we have not had much success with and it's one I think I brought to the Minister's attention last year, because I had two constituents who had succes sfully completed pre-apprenticeship training - what do they call that program at Red River? MR.

MacMASTER: The Pre-employment Orientation Program. MR. JENKINS: The Pre-employment Orientation Program had taken their training in the trade and I think it was carpentry anq joinery, but there was an inability to get employers in the field of construction to have these two ladies apprenticed in the Province of Manitoba. Have we been successful?

I know that there are many facets of on-job facilities and whatnot that are required for mempers of the work force, but have we had any success at all in persuading the construction trade and the construction unions that people successfully complete their pre- employment, successfully complete their program and then are ready for apprenticeship training, they then have to be placed with a prospective employer, indenture papers are signed, but evidently these two ladies had very great difficulty. As far as I know, they are still not employed.

Have we had any success at all with the management of construction firms in order to make it possible? I'v e seen some of the work of some of these two ladies and since I served my apprenticeship in that trade, I certainly can vouch that their workmanship is as good and on par with any of their male counterparts. Have we had any success ratio at all in persuading these people? The Minister speaks here of a Wage Incentiv e Program to encourage employers to train female apprentices and prepare women for employment in apprenticeable trades, but I shar e the Minister's enthusiasm.

I think that we need these people to go into the trades, but I'm not going to reiterate that I'm disappointed, but I would like to know. That is one facet of the trades that we don't seem to be able at the present time to crack. Have we made a breakthrough at all in that field? MR. MacMASTER: We presently have eight women in the carpentry trade and we've been successful in finding employers for them. MR. JENKINS: Have they signed indenture papers at the present time? Are they in an apprenticeship program, on-the-job training, not in the training at the Red River Community College or anywhere else?

Are they actively working as employees as their male counterparts at the persent time? MR. MacMASTER: Six have and two are pending. MR. JENKINS: Are they em ployed on projects within the City of Winnipeg or are they spread out throughout the province? MR. MacMASTER: The companies are based in Winnipeg. MR. JENKINS: That takes six of the 23 that we hav e at th e present time who are serving apprenticeships; six are in the field of carpentry. Have we any in other trades besides carpentry and joinery? MR. MacMASTER: I read all the trades that they are involved in before. MR.

JENKINS: don't think the Mini ster understands. There are construction electricians, there are bricklayers, there are drywall mechanics, there are other fields in the construction field. MR. MacMASTER: One painter. 1264

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 MR. JENKINS: One painter. How many women are presently in pre-employment and presently at school at Red River Community College in the construction trades, or would I have to get those figures from the Minister of Education? MR. MacMASTER: I could get them for you. MR. JENKINS: If the Minister could get those, would appreciate that very much. I want to go to some of the tables that we have here, Mr. Chairman, beginning with the apprenticeships. I see that the total figures are up, but I want to ask the Minister a question on Table 1, which is Power Electrician, at the present time.

There were no apprentices active as of November 1, 19 79. Is this a new program, power electrician? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, we just declar ed it a program certified trade in '79 or '80; I forget what year. it's a new designated trade. MR. JENKINS: A new designated trade. Does the completion of this program, when it is completed, is it conside red a journeyman tr ade with a journeyman's papers? Of the 17 registrations - and there are 17 active apprentices at the present time - the y are defin itely out in the field now as indentur ed ap prentices. What would be the difference between a power electrician?

Would these mainly be dealing with power companies like the Manitoba Hydro, Winni peg Hydro? Is that the type of power electricians we're talking about? Is this like linemen , or just what is a power elec trician as distinct from another type of electrician? MR. MacMASTER: The y'r e working in power generating stations. MR. JENKINS: Power generating stations. Then I would understand tha t these power elect ricians would either be working for Manitoba Hydro or Winni peg Hydro power system. I thank the Minister for that information. There is one other one here that I see.

I just wonder if it is a disappearing trade because I see that there is only one apprentice active in November 1, 19 79 and still active in 19 80, and that's Glazier. Does this seem to be a disappearing trade and is there much scope or demand for people in the window glazing field? MR. MacMASTER: There doesn't seem to be, Mr. Chairman. MR. JENKI NS : Wel l is the Trades Advisory Committee looking at this and perhaps maybe going to recommend to the Minister that this be dropped, or just what is the status of this trade at the present time here in Manitoba?

Just how do we set up a training program for when they come in for in-s ervice training back into Red River Community College? Just how do we accommodate this one person? MR. MacMASTER: There's a problem with th at particular trade; we're having a lot of difficulties. In fact, it's been virtually impossible to date to get nominees for the Advisory Committee on that trade, so I think your assumption tha t the trade is a disappearing one is possibly correct, but we haven't given up on it. We're still trying to get a working Advisory Committee for that trade, trying to get the Committee working. MR.

JENKI NS: I thank the Minis ter for tha t information. I wish to ask the Minister, because there was in the report a survey of all apprentices who had attained journeyman status from July, 1978 to June, 19 79, and was con ducted to supple ment management information on the training program and its outcomes. Their survey revealed th at respondents were currently employed and that 85.7 percent were presently employed in Manitoba and over 90 percent of all the jou rneymen express satisfaction with their apprenticeship training.

In view of the downtrend in construction in the past years, I just wonder if the Minister has any preliminary figures or whether the committee will be looking to carry on this survey, because I think the retention rate is good and the employment of these people is well.

But if we are suffering from the lack of constru ction, which emp loys a considerable number of apprenticeships when we look at the figures - they perhaps supply at least one-third of the apprenticable trades that are presently actively being pursued in the Province of Manitoba - just what effect has the downtrend been in high interest rates, the lack of construction, building of houses, been on the recruitment of people into this part of the program? Do you find that apprentices are shifting to other trades rather than the construction trade which they had in the past? MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, there's two or three things that the member has touched on; (

a) the report that he is referring to will be an ongoing one. We'll be tabling one of them next year. With the shutting down of the hydro development, of course that created a problem for the construction industry and what is perceived to be the overbuilding in the housing industry. There are those who indicate that is slowly going to come back. Of course, we all know that hydro is going to commence hopefully sooner than later, so I don't see the construction people dropping off.

The construction union leaders tell me that we should continue encouraging people to get into their types of trades and we're certainly doing it. MR. JENKI NS: Do we still have the backlog in or the great attempt to try to get into construction, electricians, that we had a number of years ago where we had quite a number of people and the trades not being able to ab sorb them in the appre nticesh ip program? That seemed to be a problem a few years ago and we seem to have a problem of being able to get the younger people indentured. MR.

MacMASTER: No I don't believe there is a backlog of people wanting to get into that particular trade today. Now you know the member is saying there was a few years ago; that's possible, but I don't think there is that backlog today. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hour is 4:30. Committee rise. This Committee will sit again Thursday afternoon. 1265

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 SUPPLY - CULTURAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This Committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 38 of the Main Esti mates, Department of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources, Resolution No. 47, Clause 3. Acq uisitio n/Cons truction of Physical Assets - pass. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give us a breakdown here of that $896,000 expenditure? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the Museum of Man and Na ture is $200,000; Multicultural Capital Grant, $65,000; Mani toba Centenni al Centre, $240,000; Mi.scell aneous Capital Gr ants, $1 25,0 00; in the Historical Resources, it's the Maison Terrain, Bohemier House, $1 75,000; regional historic sites, $66,000; Van Horne Rail Car,$1 5,000; and Building Stabilization, $10, 000, for a total of $896,000.00. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, on the Centennial Centre, can the Minster indicate what improvements of a physical kind will be made ther e, and in particular we discussed this point last year and previously.

I think there's an outstanding need for a marquee in front of that particular building. I think that it's long, long overdue, that people should be able to drive by, as thousands and thousands and thousands do every day in their cars and on buses, and look up at that building and find out what is playing.

Now the Theatre Centre has that type of a marquee, the Museum and the Planetarium have a small but effective such sign, and the Concert Hall still ha s those four or fiv e small poster-siz ed information bulletins that are only really visible if you're standing on the sidewalk squinting your eyes or if you'r e walking from Main Str eet into the building. I realize this will cost some money, but I think it is something that should have been designed when the building was open and is still outstanding. Can the Minister give us a report on it? MRS. PRICE: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

After my estimates last year I did speak to the Board of the Centennial Centre about the Honourable Member for Elmwood 's concern about a lack of a marquee, They had numerous meetings and they came up with the same answer all the time, that they felt that it was not in their best interests from an economic point of view, that the shcws don't change that often and that they really felt at this time they couldn't afford to have a marquee.

In addition to the other part of your question, the funds that I have earmarked for this year is a buildin g modificat ion, $35 ,000; stage drapery replacement, $15, 000; change s to air handling system, $55,000; sound system, $45,000; and for the Manitoba Theatre Centre, $90,000.00. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minister if she would indicate what the cost of such a marquee would be, and seco ndly, would it not be possible for her to provide that type of funding in her Budget? MRS. PRICE: Mr.

Chairman, firstly, I feel that the board is there for a specific reason, for the best interests of the Centennial Centre and if they feel that it is not a top priority with them at this time I believe that I should respect their judgment. MR. DOERN: I then have to ask the Minister what the logic of the board is. I assume that their problem is money and it's because they lack the money that they have priorized other items, but I know from several years ago that there was talk of the need for such a project at that time.

I ask the Minister whether it isn't a fact that it's because of a shortage of funding that they are unable to priorize that requirement? MRS. PRICE: As I mentione d , Mr. Chairman, certainly money enters into it, but they have felt from an economic point of view that they have other priorities that they would much rather fulfill than a marquee at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Clause 3 - pass; Resolution No. 47 - pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $896,000 for Cultural Affairs and Historical Resou rces, Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets, $896,000 - pass.

I would ask the honourable members to turn to Page 37, Resolution No. 45, Clause 1. (

a) Minister's Salary. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I had a few questions for the Min ister before I make a conc luding comment. My colleague from St. Vital was interested in the translation services and he had asked some questions, and if I can attempt to indicate what he was interested in. He was interested, for example, apparently some $220,000 is being spent and he broke out of that $25,000 for the Moncton contracts, which I believe are the Univ ersity of New Brunswick contracts, and he wanted to know the basis of those particular contracts.

For example, is it being farmed out on the basis of so many dollars per page or are the contracts based on a yearly amount or six-month period? Could the Minister give us some informtion there? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Chairman, I have a three-page detailed information sheets on the translation and I think instead of reading it out and taking everyone's time I will just give the copy of the report to the Member for Elmw ood and he can pass it on to the Member for St. Vital. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'd also like to ask the Minister again for a comment on the St. Pierre Church.

This was quite a controv ersy and was somewhat of a heated debate and the fallout, I guess, is still going to continue for some period of time. I don't know if that's in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson, but I'm sure that he took a strong position on the fence in regard to that particular project. He firmly planted his feet on each side of the fence, which is a dangerous position at the best of times. I just wanted to ask the Minister whether having gone through tha t and played a hands-off role, whether she has any regret at this time, because the tragedy always is I guess that once 1266

Tuesday, 3 March 1981 these buildings go they're gone forever. In this particular case the suggestion was made as it al ways is, as it inevitably is, that it is cheaper to knock down than to renovate, I mean that's a normal, common rule of thumb that for older buildings generally speaking, it's often cheaper to rebuild than to renovate, so we can't only look at that. I was just wondering what observations the Minister had to make.

I mean, the church is gone but she will undoubtedly be involved in other similar problems and challenges and I just wonder whether this is going to be her approach, tha t when a historic building is threatened that the government will take no position on the matter. MRS. PRICE: Well, I don't agree with the Member for Elmw ood that I didn't take a position on the matter, Mr. Chairman. I took a position that I felt was the only one I could take. There were two very decided divisions in the town, one for raising of the building and the other for the restoration of it.

We had a board of trustees set up with members from the community on it as well as a member from the Federal Government and one from my department. We hi