Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, May 3, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 10

~ay 3, 1972, Tape 233. Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. i""P.. SPEAKER· It is indeed a honour for me to welcome to the honourable --------·- House sixty grade XI students from Laval High in Placentia with their teacher Reverend Brother T.D.Connors. We trust that your visit is interesting, informative and most educational. PETITIONS MR. STAGG: ~r. Speaker, I would like to present a petition from the people of Port au Port the prerunble to which is as follows;

whereas education at all levels is one of the most pressing problems and challenp.es facing Newfoundland and

whereas Stephenville has facilities especially dormitory space auickly adaptable to the needs of higher education, be it for academic or technical training or both, we the undersigned hereby petition the honourable Minister of Education and the House of Assembly to immediately corranence a comprenhensive study of Stephenville's possible contribution to higher education. This petition is seconded by the hon. member from the Di.str:f.c t . of St. r,eorP.:e' s. ~r. Speaker.

I would like to give briefly some background on the higher education diletmna . or problem that has been racking the West Coast for the last three or four years. First of all, the dormitory buildings to which this petition refers are going to come up for discussion later on this week. They are two large buildinr,s built by the U.S.Air Force in the early 1960's. They have a value of approximately $8 million. So111etime ago they were sold - sold to Canadian .Tavelin for $250,000 of which $100,000 was paid. I hope to hear more about that later on this \-'eek.

In 1967, shortly after the Ernest Harmon Air F.orce Base closed, a very comprehensive brief was presented to the House of Assembly or presented to government,which is nresently gathering dust on the eipht floor. I hope to resurrect that one as well. It was presented rv th~ Stephenville J.C. 's. Between 1970 and 1972, Stephenville and r.orner l',roo} 62G

}';iy 3 , 197 2, 'rape 233, Page 2 ·--· apb engaged in verbal hickering over the site for the junior college for the West Coast. This bickerin~ has Rone on much too long and recriminations have been sometimes very severe. In Octo~er, 1971. the then Mayor and present Mayor of Corner BrooK and the Chairman of the Hannon Corporation, who were runnjnf in llumh~-r East - Humber West, announced that a .iunior college would be nlaced in Corner Rrook. This came - 621

May 3, 1972 Tape 234 MR. STAGG: I had mixed emotions about that. The encumbent in Port au Port at that time must have been overtaken by chagrin as well. Anyway 1 thank Messrs. Warren and Murph y for what they did for me last October. In 1970 briefs were presented to the government and to Memorial University by the various peoples on the West Coast. This brought about a ·great deal of controversy between Stephenville and Corner Brook, a controversy that I think we could well do without. The people of Stephenville want our facilities used. We have a great deal of facilities there.

It has been a policv of people who have not visited our community to pooh-pooh our facilities and say that they are not adaptable or they are not really there but they are there and they are worth an awful lot of money. We do not particularily care if it is an academic institution -or a . technical institution or whatever but we do want them used. The move would be an aid to education and the economy of Newfoundland.

Stephenville has been the topic of conversation,saying that we are costing the rest of Newfoundland an awful lot of money but we would like to save Newfoundland a lot of money as well,and we have the facilities there to help save Newfoundland a lot of money. Mr. Speaker, I hereby request that this petition be tabled and that it be referred to the department to which it relates. By the way, there are approximately twenty-eight hundred names to the petition. ~ -- ~OBERTS: Mr. Speaker, before the motion is -put, if I mav.

The prayer of the petition, as I understood it and perhaps the gentleman for Port au Port would correct me if I am wronp.:, was that a study be made of this question. Was that the praver of the petition? Well obviously that is a very good thinp.; and we are all for it. I 622 JM - 1

May 3, 1972 Tape 234 JM - 2 MR.

RORERTS: mav add and I think the honourable member made much of this point in his presentation and I think if I could coin a well-known cliche, ''The tir.ie has come"when really a decision must be taken on this Question both as to the location of, (I do not want to use the term 'co~.munitv college; in anvthinr except the very broadest sense) as to the location of these facilities. and not iust Ste~henville 1md Corner Brook but on the whole of the Island an<l in Labr?..dor. ' Also a decision as to the. form or the tyne or the nature of these facilities, whether thev are to be hranches of the university and in effect iunior universities or whether they are to be a broader tvne of facility.

T. hope that before the session ends we will get a statment from the 'Minister. of Education on it. T think it is a verv iMnortant question and one that cannot wait very ~uch longer and until such time a stuny obviouslv is a good thing. the more information we have the better. The honourable gentleman is modest hut T. think I should point out f,or the other members of the House , Sir, that when the honourable gentleman was (and he mav be still) active in the Stephenville Chamber of Commerce he put together a very good brief on this point and he was assisted by Mr.

James Campbell, a gentleman with whom the honourable gentleman is familiar and with whom he will become more familiar doubtless in the next round. But I would commenrl that to all honourable members of the House, Sir, as somethinsi- that should be studied. This is an important question and the petition is a means of raising it. It is one which the ministery will have to take a position on sooner or later . I hope there is a lot of discussion in the House hefore the position is taken and I am sure there will be a lot of discussion after it is taken,both in the House and outside.

We will support the petition with pleasure. 623

May 3, 1972 Tape 235 PK - 1 On motion petition received. MR. B. HOWARD: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the residents of Lower Is'.and Cove, in the historic Dis.trict of Bay de Verde, for the upgrading of the secondary roads in that community. 1 support this petition because these roads are in a deplorable condition and at times they are impassible, owing to the ditches being filled,causing the water to flow over the roads. In supporting this petition I pray that the petition will be J,':ranted.

I move that this petition be accepted by this House and forwarded to the department to which it relates. J'AF .• S.A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition which was just presented by the honourable member for Bay de Verde. As honourable members of this House may well appreciate the fact that we have a very special spot in our hearts on this side of the House for the District of Bay de Verde, we hope that the tempermental ~inister of Finance will see his way clear in this construction season·to see that the · prayer of the petition from the people of Lower Island Cove is granted.

On motion petition received. HR, F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the people of St, Barbe North from the communities of Plum Point to Eddy's Cove, The prayer of the petition, Sir, is that the people in these communities protest the condition of the road from Plum Point to Eddy's Cove East on the northern peninsula. They have been pretty poorly maintained to the extent that the vehicles travelling over them are damaged. They feel, Sir, as taxpayers that they have a right to a decent road maintenance in return for the payment of 624

~!ay 3, 1972 Tape 235 Pl< - 2 MR. F. P,. ROVE: these taxes. Now. Sir. I know very well what the nrohlems concernin~ the roads are in that particular district . 1 s r ent three weeks a short time aAO in that area and - h1we been receiving constant phone calls from St. Barbt> ~forth in the rai:1t f~, weeki: .

The problem seems to be that the ~rade of the road itself is below the water tahle level of the bOAS in the area and conseQuently this time of the years,with the free2inp. and the thawinit,we have these mass ive t••ater !-:oles and floodinp. conditio ns particularly around the culverts in that particula r area. These water holes, Sir , are just not smooth thfnp.s, they are somt>times one and a two foot drop off the erlee of the ice in certain places anrl school huse.s a re quite ofte n held up anrl the students in the area are delayed in pettinp. to school or they do not Ret to school at all .

I would also like to point out. Sir. that the nearest hospital in ~t . llar1>e Nor th is in !'-t. Anthony , in the Pistrict of I/bite .Bay North,and t he h• spital co the sout h i s down in Norris Point and the people depend on t he hi~hway in t hat area fo r p.ettinp back and for t h t o the hospital . As well, Sir, the only way t hey can p.et fresh food and l'lail an~ oil to t he homes in this dist r ict is hy way of the r oad . So . ~1r. Speaker , I would ask tha t thi s pe t ition be placed on t he tahle of the Paus e and r efe r red to th e dep art ment to whi ch it rela tes . 625

May 3, 1972 Tape No, 236. NC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: The remarks made by the hon, gentleman, my colleague from St. Barbe North, I think said .iust about 1111 th"t nP..-t'le,:1 to he RR-frl in support of this petition, I would like Lo add my own voice and I hope that the Minister of Labour will add a word or two because I suspect it effects his district, especially the people who live in the Port Saunders, Port au Choix, Hawkes Bay area because they too must use this road at least until such time as the ministry build the hospital that I understand is to be built there.

The Northern Peninsula Road is the life-line of the district and I have no hesitation in saying that it is the worst road in the province, bearing in mind that we still have areas with no roads at all. It has had a very severe winter and as the member for St, Barbe North says, the road from Plum Point north to St. Anthony, the road with which I am intimately familiar, as I have been bounced over every inch of it, was never really built as a road.

It was built by the Highroad Department, their own forces so called,over the years and really needs to be completely rebuilt. l hope this will be a priority item with the present ad~inistration. They will have three or four years to work at it and if we start to work at it now, if the work started this summer, they should be -able to get a good start on it.

There are 35,000 people on that Peninsular, Sir, and they are entitled to road facilities just as much so as the people on the Burin Peninsula from which we foI'!llerly heard so much from the member for Burin, N:)w that that project seems to be well in hand or coming in hand, let him lend his voice for this. The only thing I would ad9 is that I am told that people in twenty separate communities signed this petition, in all just about 500 citizens, electors, in St. Barbe North signed the petition, I tell you that there are 35,000 people on the Northern Peninsula, Mr.

Speaker, who support the prayer of the petition as do I. On motion petition received. 626

May 3, 1972 Tape No . 236 NC - 2 HR._T_!!OMS 1P,S£ Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Indian Bay, Bonavista Bay. Mr. Speaker, the prayer of thls petition is that this Assembly will provide for the Town of Indian Bay a water and sewer system. Mr. Speaker, some of the honourable members here, I am quite sure, a re aware of the condjtions in lndlan Bay at the present time . The Community of Indian Bay sits at the mouth of the river .

This is one of the best salmon rivers that we h~ve in our district; as a matter of fact I believe it was one of the best salmon rivers in the whole province. This is a stra igh t piece of road and less than 1,000 feets of water and sewer would take care of this problem. This community has been recently incorporated and the people of thi s community feel t hat they are entitled to . this facility as well as any other town, city or villa~e in the Province of Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, I whole heartily endorse the prayer of chis petition and I ask that this petition he placed on the table of this House and referred to the Department to whic h it relates. 627

May 3, 1972 Tape no. 237 Page 1 - mrw On motion petition received. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition on behalf of the people of Petit Forte, Placentia Bay. The prayer 'of this petition is very brief. It is a p~tition for electricitv for the community. It is signed by 1 believe every resident of the community. This, Mr. Speaker, would involve probably the supplying of a lip.htinp, plant for the communitv.

When we stop to think how we take. for granted the electricity in the urban are.as of our province and in the areas of our provinc~ where electricity has been for , twenty, tld.cty, forty vears, we mav find it hard to believe or hard to put ourselves in the position of people who are stil1 without the proper lighting facilities. So, Mr. Speaker, I wish to support this 'petition. l think it is something that every Newfoundlander is entitled . to . I ask leave of the House to table the petition and to refer it to the departnent to which it relates. -~._ ROWE (W.N.): _ Mr.

Speaker, of course, on this side we wholeheartedly support the praver of the petition presented by my hon. friend. At the time that the other administration left office I believe that over ni.nety­ nine per cent of the homes - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) ~:__ROWE {W.N.)~ No, no, Mr. Speaker. It was stated quite explicitly, ouite plainly - I am surprised at the hon. minister who is a lawyer that he is not using his aptitude in the House todav, Mr. Speaker. It was stated quite explicitly that over ninety-nine per cent of the homes in the province have the benefit of electricity.

There were still sever~l thousand I would imagine who do not have electricity. (I do not have the figures with me). It was certainly our i1•tention to complete the .1ob had we been given the opportunity, I am sure that the present administration,now having been given the opportunity to bestow further benefits on the people of Newfoundland, will not hesitate at all to ~cceda to the 628

May 3, 1972 Tape no. 237 Page 2 11r. Rowe (W . N. ) prayer of the petition presented by my hon . friend . On motion petition received . REPORTS OF STA.~OING AND SELECT COMMJTTESS HON. J.C . CROSBIE (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker , l would like to table an amendment to the Colle~e of Fish eries Pension Amendment Re~ulations, 1971, required bv the law . I would also like to t able, Mr. Speaker - I am requ i red under scr-t i on( '.11.~ , parae:raph (2) of the Reven ue and Audit Act,

Chapter 31, !'cvi sed .1tatues of i~ewfoundland, 19.',2, m; amended, to table the figures , within fi fceen days afte r the opening, the figui:cs which rep r esent loans which have been paid in part or in whole under the Loan and Guarantee Act for the f isca l year, 1971- 1972 . I will read the list, Mr . Speaker, because thes e were loans that invo.lved the previous administration. Corner Brook 629 '

Me,• 3, 1972. Tane 238. Page 1. Amalgamated Regional High School 'oard of Education, $60,748 in connection ,-·ith a guaranteed loan to that Board. rorner Brook Ski Club, $25,278 that is a loan the nrevious administration renaid and the interest on it. Harbour Grace Re.creation rentre Limited, $30, 095.79 ,md fl r.narantee for that centre. Hotel Buildings Lfmite~$1,009, 617 89 These bonds have heen guaranteed b,, the Government of Newfoundl,and, we pay the interest and princi'. al.

Hotel Holdings Limited, Corner Ilrook $20,552 thev are not naving their nrincinal or "interest. .Javelin Paper Corporation Limited, $9,017,232. A.Northcott Limited S23,555.55. Paragon Hotel Limited, r.rand Falls, $15,973.20. we guar;inteed the nrinci.pal and interest, no navments are being made. V.P. S1>encer, ,.i111ited, S24,823.85. \J,·! have to continue n;wi.ng that each vear, Mr. Sne;i\er, for the ne:,t fifteen or sixtef''1 vec1rs whi..l e "r. Spencer en.i ovs the hotel, having got t~n back for S50, 000 1,.•hile "'e nav off some SJ00,000. w,, should have a ,:nval commi, ,fon. on that one.

All of these wj]l he looked into later on. These are the amounts. Mil. E. ROf'ERTS: There is an agreement bet· ·eP.n the government and Hotel Holdings Limited. Not l!otel Holdine;s Limited, the one in Corner Jlrook. Rill Hann's firm, Hotel Holdings, l wonder if the honourable gentleman would table a copy of that agreeT11ent for us, if at the same time perhaps he can let us know whet'.er the agreement has he~n honoured or not. I realize it is not a thing he can do quickly, but if we would look i.nto i:t nerhans when we come to his estimates we.could have a little al->out it.

I think he would he as interested as J w11 l. oe in the inform­ ation that he will produce, MR.CROSBIE: Yes, J'lr. Speaker, I certainly would. I would like to table somethi.ng on a few more nf those too when T get the chance. ~R.POBERTS: All for it, All for tabling them - MR.CROSBIE: J would also like to table a copy of the management contracts having reference to Hotel Buildlngs Limited, & Atlific Newfoundland Limited. Th,.se are in connection with the Holiday Inns. These have been kept secret 630

'·lay 3, 1972. Tape 238 Pai(e 2. for some reason by the r>:revious administration, but this govemm en·t sees no reason why they should not be tabled. Management Contract Sent . 29, 1966, between Hotel Buildin~s Lilllited and Atli fie Newfoundland Ltmited. This provides for the operation of the Holiday Inn Hotels at St . John's, Clarenville, Gander and C9rner Broo·k, rv Atlific Newfoundland T.i.mited , ~~hj ch is a suhsidiar>· of a Canadian company. that has the Bo'iday Inn franchi~e . The terms and conditions are all men t ioned herein. ~«R. ROHERTS: What was the date aiain? ~f!l.Cll0S13'U::: !-ept 29, 1966. 631

Hay 3, 1972, Tape 239, Pare 1 -- apb }'!R. CROSBIE: - - --- ---- ---- - - The agreement is for a period of twenty-five years, so contrary to some speculation in the press it could not be taken over hy the government. I do not want to go into details, iust the ma1or p.irt. ender the contract Atlific are naid an annual management fee eoual to four percent of thP gross revenue,olus ten percent of the net nrofits before deprecintion and interest and bonded debt, plus one-ha]f of one perc~nt of gross revenue from the Atlific Executive Offices nrimary accountinr. and reporting coverinv the premises.

That agreement is here and then there is a second agreement signed bv Atlific and Hotel Buildinp.:s. The second ap:reement is dated September 29 , 1966, between the then Prel!'ier J.P.Smallwood, Hotel Buildinr.s ;,.nd Atlific. That covers - no this gives an option. This is the option agreement.

Atlific (Nfld.) Limited is given an ontion to purchase from the government or from Hotel Buildings Limited the various Holiday Inns Rotels,exercisable within the twenty-five years at a purchase price that would be sufficient to pay off the indebtedness incurred by the government or Hotel Buildings Limited in erectinf! the hotels. The third agreement is November 28, 1967, entered into bv the J<inister of Economic Development, Hotel Buildin?s Limited and .A.tlific. This extends the option agreement also to the hotel at Port aux Basques.

ThE' hotel at Port aux Basques is also included in the five hotels operated by Atlific on behalf of the government. The GovernmE>nt of Newfoundland had to nay off the hotel at Port aux Basques and it has been given to the Holiday Inns to manage. The fourth agree.ment is November 28, 1967, and that includes the hotel at Port aux Basques and the general management contract. These will be tabled if anyone i's interested and wants to look at them. I might just say, Hr. Speaker, that the Churchill l<'alls Tavern is in premises rented from the Churchill Falls Labrador Corporation Limited.

The Churchill Falls Tavern is operated by Atlific and Hotel Buildinrs Limited. The rental is one twenty-fourth of fifty cents for each µint bottle of ~eer sold or fifteen thousand dollars per vear, 632

~ay 3, 1972, Tape 239, Pap,e 2 -- apb whichever is the lesser. t'R. ROBERTS · .. - ---- -- Let us guess which jt is . !>'}I • • CROSBIE· F.very time you drink a bottle of beer up there you are paying nart of the rent. I-'R. ROBERTS: The fifteen thousand surely is the one, because there would be more than seventy-five thousand bottles of beer sold a year in Churchill Falls. }!R. CROSBIE: gross revenue. We pay a management fee to Atlific of three percent of the The House might be interested in knowing what .A.tlific has paid us since this operation started.

Atlific has paid over to Hotel Buildings Limited since they started to operate, or at least since 19fi8, a total of $2, 575,000. MR. POBF.R'.l'S· Those are net operatini:t profits and.then Hotel Buildings nicks up the ••• l.fR. CROf':BIE · ¥R. ROBERTS· ··- -- - of these .•. HR. CROSBIE: Yes, this is after deducting their management fee and so on . Does the minister have the cost to the nrovince since 1968 I think so, yes. That is what I was going to try to give now. They have naid us a total of $2,575,000.

Five hundred thousand in 1968-69, the same in 1969-70, five hundred and seventy-five thousand in 1970-71 and $1 million this year, 1971-72. The debt position is that the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation advanced $6,450,000 towards the cost of the buildings and the government guaranteed $9 million in debentures and a U.S. bond issue also to go against the cost of the build:lngs. That is a total of $15,450,000 in principal. Since then we have had to pay with respect to the NIDC,$876,370 . (eight hundred and twenty-six thousand,three hundred and seventy dollars) principal and $1,362,130.in interest.

Un to last.,. MR: ROBERTS: That just about take~ care of all the payments received from Atlific. MP.. CROSBIE: Right. Then the province has paid with respect to the $9 million in debentures, we have repaid nine hundred thousand of the 633

May 3, 1972 , Tape 239, Page 3 -- apb bonds and -we paid in interest to Decemher 31, 1971 $3,058 .381. If you add that all up, you will see that we have paid in intere 'st $4,420,000 in round fi~res. We have paid off in princ ipaJ , $1.746,000 which total $6,166 . 001). We have received frolJI Atlific S2,575,000. 1-!R . ROBF.?.TS: In effect, that is the subsidy on the Holiday Tnns . l"R ._ CROSBIE· Pi~ht .

To date. as the hon. me~her savs, the hon. leader of the Opoosition s avs , thP diffe r ence would he the amount we have suhsi rlized or the amount that these huildi np.s are costinP t.he province and the people of t ~e province . ~•R . ROBERTS: About S4 million eh? (Inaudible) ,\N __ tl_Q!,_ •. -~~-F.Jl: rp . CROSBIE· Yes, I have that too. The manar,ement f ees paid to Atlific (Nfld.) Lilllited from 1966 -67 to date totalled $77? ,184 . In 1966-67 (I 1,1ill _iust give the round fiitures) $37,000 . :1.967-(,S $135,000, 1968- 69 $187 ,000 . 1%9--70 ~196 ,000. 1970··71 $215,C'OO.

That does not include wha tever it is this yc>ar, but up to then it was S772,000 . 634

May 3, 1972 Tape No. 240 NC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if it is in order, may I ask one or two questions? Again the hon. gentleman may ~ish to take them as notice. These orders were passed in 1966 and the then ~abinet will have to answer for them of course, but could the minister tell us unrler what authority those contracts were entered into? Were they Order­ in-Council, or was there Legislative Authority? MR. CROSBIE: I have not had that checked, Mr. Speaker, so I am not sure which, MR. ROBERTS: Well if the hon. gentleman perhaps could take that as notice, Mr.

Speaker, and on the assumption that they were under Order­ in-Council, because I am quite certain there was no ~egislative Authority, perhaps the hon. gentleman could check with his colleague, the Minister of Justice, Although the hon. gentleman does not need advice on a legal question, he can answer this himself, but I have always understood Sir, that no contract of more than one year's duration could be entered into by the Government of this Province without prior or subsequent Legislative ratification.

If there is no Legislative ratification here, the contract may be invalid, Jf so would '.he hon. gentleman undertake to check that with a view either to ~enegotiating it or amenrling it? These are costing us in the order of $1 million to which we will add on the municipal taxes paid the other day, or to be paid, as announced by the minister the other day. The subsidy will be quite large and continuing . Perhaps we could get a better deal than that, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: We will certainly look into it. MR. DAWE: Inaudible. ----- MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Companie,; Act," a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Prisons Act, 1969." 635

May 3, 1972 Tape No. 240 NC - 2 HON. A. J. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I givenotice that on tomorrow I will introduce a bill, "An Act For Registration and Regulation Of Automobile nealers, And The Salesmen Of Such Dealer,;;," also, "An Act Respecting The Registration And Regulation Of Collection Agencies," and "An Act Respecting The Registration And Regulation Of Credit Reporting Agencies." These have been in the wheels for some time. HON. J. A. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, it has become obvious during t~e past year that our people are intensely dissatisfied with our school bus transportation policies.

Hon. members may recall that when school reopened last fall, there were many public demonstrations and numerous complaints were registered from all parts of the province. Under existing school bus transportation policy, school boards are granted 100% of the cost of transporting all students who reside more than one mile from school, except in Labrador West where the transportation of all students is financed during the winter months, regardless of the distance they live from school. In addition boards are reimbursed for the total cost of transporting severely handicapped children.

School boards arrange transportation routes, call tenders and let contracts in accor4ance with transportation regulations. There are two weaknesses inherent in this policy - one is that there seems to be insufficient reason to keep the cost of school bus transportation within predictable limits and consequently costs are escalating each year, the other is that it is extremely difficult to prevent students who live just under a mile from travelling on buses that ar~ financed from government funds, and complaints arise when the mile limit is enforced.

After preliminary discussions with the main parties involved, I am recommending a complete revision of the policy underlying the financing of school bus transportation in this province. Instead of paying the total cost of bus contracts, I am recommending that we provide a per pupil grant on behalf of each pupil who resides more than one mile from school and who is transported. It would then be in the interest of school boards to arrange transportation as economically as possible since they 636

May 3, 1972 Tape No. 240 NC - 3 MR. CARTER: would be able to use for other purposes, any monies not expended on transportation and boards themselves would be free to determine the ext~nt to which children who reside less than a mile from school could be accommodated. More specifically, Mr. Speaker, my recommendat i ons are as follow : (1) that we allocate the school boards each year a grant of $100 on account of each pupil who resides more than one mile from school and for whom transportation is provided.

Furthermore, that we allocate $40 per student, for students who live more than one quarter of a mile from school, in regions of the province where the mean temperature fails below zero degrees, (2) - that we provide 100% of the cost to a school board for the transportation of pupils fully certified by a qualified medical practitioner to be physically or mentally handicapped and to be unable to use regular transportation services. I might point out, Mr.

Speaker, that this provision is built into existing regulations, ' (3) - that we provide on account of high school students who are attending vocational schools, the less of (a) $100 for each pupil transported or (

b) the net cost of such transportation to the school board. This is a new policy which is being introduced in anticipation of the integration of vocational and academic education for certain high school students in the province. Mr.Spe~ker, I now propose to take the necessary steps to see that this new transportation policy is ready for implementation at the beginni~g of the school year, September 1972 . I beg leave to table this report, this statement,and there are copies available for the press. 637

May l, 1972 Tape 241 PK - 1 MR. J7. B. ROWF: Mr. Speaker, is a question in order to the honourable ministe; on this? I was wonderin?, Nr. Speaker, if there is an increase in the per pupil grant for bus transportation or not? "'IR. CARTER: --- - -- !\Jo, :Mr. f:peaker, this is the same as last year. But it is a slightly different formula that is all. }'R. ROBF.RTS: "r. Speak.er, is it r,overnment policy, I am not quite sure from listening to the minister's statement, he said he proposes to recommend. Now that could mean one of two things.

Let us ht:! clear. ls he announcinp in hehalf of the ministery a new policy with respect to these regulations? l'-'R. CARTf.R: Yes, I am announcing that we are going to put regulations into effect to affect the pro,.osals ,.,e have - ~fR ROBERTS: lt is not only a recommendation? MR CARTF.R: r-ro, no. It is a decision. l'-'R ROBERTS· A meaningless decision - a decision anyhow. OUF.STIONS HON. F. D. MOORF:S (PREMIF.R):_ !-fr.

Speaker.regarding nuestion No. 11 asked by the honourable the member for Bell Is]and, to the 'best of our knowledge ,checking 1.•ith the various departments of government, the answer to (1) and (2) is, no, we have not had anv representation from any people. The answer to (3) - does not apply. It is not relevant, No'' being the answer to (1) and (2). MR. NF.ARY: '.•Ir. Sneaker, may T ask the honourable Premier a supi:,lementary ~uestion? Did not the Chamber of Comwerc~ in Gander come to see the honourable the Premier or the government recently about this matter of making St, John's an International Airport? MR.

NOORES: Not to my knowledge, )'Ir, Speaker. I certainly did not meet with them.as much as I would have enjoyed doing so. They may have m.et with the honourable ~~inister of Municipal Affairs, If that is the case, that information has not been passed on. But T have not met with them and no way have we had representation in this regard and as it is basically a federal problem I doubt if we would have very 638

May), 1972 Tape 241 PK - 2 MR. M00RlcS':' great influence one way or the other at the present time. But the answer to the question, to the hest of my knowledge,is: No. MR. NEAP.Y: Well, 1·1r. Speaker, a supplementary auestion, would the honourable the Premier try to determine from the Minister of Municipal Affairs,who has not heen in his seat for several days now,if he has had any representation,and tahle the information in the House? HR. MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, if we find that we have had representation from Gander it w:!11 he tarled in the House. HON. R. L. CHEESEr'AN (!-fINISTER OF FISHERIES): ~Ir.

Speaker, in answer to f1uestion No. 12 from the honourable the member for Bell Island. The answer is (

a) a meeting has been held with plant operators to endeavour to get an early start up date. (

b) No. (

c) Government are not the emplovers. MR. NF.ARY: 'lr. Speaker, a supple.mentary question, could not the honourahle }'inister of Fisheries get ·the information from the honourable the Minister of Labour? IJON, W. W. IARSHALL: ('1INISTF.R WITHOUT P•)r.TFOLIO) : On a po•nt of order. Mr. Speaker, that is not i.n the nature of a supplementary question. The honourarle Minister of Fisheries has ans,.rered the question and that particular type of su)'lplementary q•testion is improper.

I mean it can he perfectly assumed when the ~'.inister of Fisheries is answerinp that he is ans,,,ering on the part of the government. 'IR. NEARY: What is the honourable member trying to hide? ORDERS OF THE DAY '-'R. W. N. R0WR: On Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave of the House to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Community and Social Development concerninp; a matter which I spoke to him briefly about, priYately, two or three days ago.

I was wonderinp. if the honourahle minister's department either hy itself or in conjunction w:l.th the Department of Education is planning: 639

~fay 3, 1972 Tape 241 }lR. ROWE, W. }l . to help financially the museum at Hihb's Cove and the associated music school to enable those institutions to continue their operations this year? PK - 3 ~~OA:_!I._._ SF.J~T:0~ (MINISTER OF COMMUNITY AND SOCIAL DFVF.LOPMENT):.. Mr. Sr,eaker, I would like to advi.ce the honourahle memher that this matter has been looked into hy the de~artment of government concerned, the Department of Provincial Affairs. I now have the recommendation on my desk which I received late yesterday afternoon and to this date we have not reached a final decis1on.

I will he pleased to advise the honourable memher Phen that decision is reached. MR. r. S • TROMS : Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines . Ap:riculture and Resnurces. In view of the fact that the veterinar~an who has been practicing in.Central '-le~••foundland has resigned, is it the intention of the government to replace this veterinarian and, if so, is there any prospective rerilacement? HON. C. P . onoov (~fl } STER OF MINES, AGRICULTURE AND Rl:-:SOl'R_C_£_)__-_ Mr.

Speaker. we are a~•are of the fact that the veterinarlan has resigned and we are taking active steps to have him replaced as soon as possible. MOTIONS }lR. 1,1. W. }fARSHALL: On motions, Mr. Speaker, the honourable the memher for P,ell Island in whose name item (5) standfl has kindly consented to third reading of certain hills. So I call inst.c:td Orders two to six. 640

Nay 3, 1972 Tape no. 242 Pagel - MRW On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Respecting Children Of Unmarried Parents," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Pape,:. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend Revise And Consolidate The Law Respecting The Welfare Of Children," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Social Assistance Act 1971," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion, a bill,"An Act Further To Amend The Social Assistance Act, 1971," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill; "An Act To Amend Revise And Consolidate The Law Respecting The Adoption Of Children," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. Adiourned l'ebate, Motion No. 5 (Resolution). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, last week when I started to wind up the debate on this resolution, I omitted to· congratulate all the hon. members who participated in the debate.

I want to pay a special tribute to the hon. member for White Bay South who in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, made one of the finest speeches I think I have ever heard made in this honourable House. It was truly, Sir, a Liberal speech. My hon. colleague, the member for St. Barbe North,made an excellent speech, an excellent Liberal speech, Mr. Speaker­ and 1 want to congratulate them for it. Mr. Speaker, I was rather disappointed that more members from the opposite side of the House did not participate in the debate.

The hon. the Premier is developing a reputation in this honourable House as being the "hon silent Premier." I was hoping, Mr. Speaker - MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I would much rather be the silent Premier so when I say something it is worth listening to,than having to put up with this unadulterated nonsense. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, 1 would like to know where the point of privilege is? 641

May 3, 1972 Tape no. 242 Page 2 MR. SPEAKER; Order! MR. MOORES: The point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, is that the hon, member made an accusation and I am just trving to help him out with an explanation. AN HON. MEMBER: Point of order. MR, MOORES: That is all right - well a point of order, if it will help our hon. friend with his Liberal

interpretation. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if I may carry on my little speech without interruption, the hon, the Premier will have to learn the rules of the House. He may have to learn the hard way, Mr.Speaker. I do not know whether he will be here that long, I do not know whether the hon, the Premier will be here that long or not. I was hopiTig that the hon, the Premier would participate in this debate to show some leadership to the hon. members on the opposite side of the House. The first speaker from the other side, the hon, member for St. John's South,lead off the debate, Mr.

Speaker, by accusinr members on this side of the House of pushing socialism. Now, Mr. Speaker, it has often been said that the United States and Canada are the bulwarks of the free enterprise system and have made greater strides and _greater advances in social legislation than Russia has managed since 1917 or China which is the world's other great socialist strong-hold even contemplates today. The hon. member for St, John's South, Mr.

Speaker, told us that we are not elected to promote socialism, Now, Mr. ~peaker, I maintaln tnat we were elected to this honourable H~use to serve the needs of our people, all our people. Mr. Speaker, if these needs involve the collecting of money through taxation and the distribution of it to the less fortunate and to the 642

May 3, 1972 Tape ~3 J ~- 1 needy reople of this nrovince then J would say, Sir . that we are at J~a st in

part i,rovidinP. a part of the most important responsibilities for whic-h we have been elected to this !louse of Assembly in a democra tic manner . >1R. TfELLS.: Mr. Speaker , in my remarks last week I said that I did not think 1 was electe<l to promote the cause of socialism . 1 have no i<lea whv the honourable membeT was elected . 'rR. NP.ARV : ---·- -- --- Mr. Speaker, all the members of this House knoi,., hot.' the honourable member was elected . He know, Mr.

Speaker. first of all we saw him u~ in Ilonavista North then he was racinp. back and forth across t his island and fina llv he rleci~ed t o take a safe s.eat in St . .John's South . AN RON . MEMBRR: . -- -- ·--- ·- . (Inaudible). "1R.·_lfEA.RY_~ That is why. Mr. Speaker. the honourable j!encleman is becominp known as the roadrunne r . NmJ T would sup.gest . Mr. Soe:iker. to the honourable member for St.

John ' s South and J would like to r emind the honourable member that we were elected to this honourable House not only by the people who r epresent the well-to-do people of t his pr ovince . not iust fo r the millionaire people . not just for the lawye r peoole, either, Mr . Speaker , (Inaudible) . ~- MOQ~S_:_ MR . NEARY : ---·-·-·- If the honou r able Premier would just hold his cool . One of these days I fear he is ioinlZ · to have a massive coronary in this J.touse, Mr . Speaker . I was about to say .

Sir , tha t neither were we elected in this honourable House iust for the r eceip ents of social assistance but r want to remind the honour able member for St . John's South that we were elec t ed for all the neonle of this province. ~~~~5-..:.. On a point of order. Mr. Speak er, we were elected t o ' 643

Mav 3, 1972 Tape 243 MR. To/ELLS : represent individual district. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member mav be under the illusion that we represent individual districts but when we enter this House, Sir, and we take our seat in this honourable House then we represent the. neople of Newfoundland as a whole, in total anc:l inst not in little sef'1Tlents and districts. T he honourable member, my learned friend, the ~reat authority on constitutional law should know the difference of that, 1-"r. Speaker, and I will not even charge the honourable member for that littlE' niece of infomation. JM - 2 Mr.

Speaker, here is a gem, here is an intellectual statement if T ever heard one,made by the honourable member for St. John's South. He says, '"I am confident" (ancl this is straight from Hansard) "Iain confident we will have a si:overnment that will through the Federal-Provincial Department find out what is available from Ottawa and tell Ottawa sonething of ot1r nriorities. · I can only presume from this statment, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable meJT1her is referring to the minister and the new Department of Inter-Governmental Affairs. Now, Mr.

Speaker. ever since the honourahle Premier created and the government created this post I - MR. MOORES: The House created it, not the government. MR. NEARY: The government have created, it, Mr Speaker. The House merely confirns what the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council has already done. We have not voted on it yet, Mr. Speaker. and I would doubt very much if we have a sufficient number of members on this side of the House to overrule the government. So we can assume that the government have taken a unilateral decision and have created this Department of Inter-Governmental Affairs and I for one, 644

Mav 3 . 1972 Taoe 243 .JM - 3 M~ JiE,~i'._: ~r. Speaker, wonld like for the honourable Premier to eXT\lain to the Peoole of chis province iust what a Minister of tnter - C',overnrnental Affairs does. noes it mean, ~r. Sneaker , that this minister is a liaso n officer between the orovince and the C..overnment of Canada ? Does it mean. !lir, that the honourable minister is the rep resentative of this orovince ~.-j th the Government of F.n~land, with Hestminister? Is that what it means, Mr. Speaker?

Or does it mean that this minister is responsible for seeinr that the people of this ~rovince can s;:et to see ministers when they come co Confecleration BuiJ din?. Sir. or when they call on the phone to make .in apnointme.nt or when they write a letter askinl? for an annointment with a certain minist er? Is this the res.nonsibilitv of the Minister of tncer­ GovernMental Affairs, Sir? 645

Taoe 244. Page 1. Sometime when the Honourable the Premier, when the Honourable the Premier breaks h:ls oath of silence, Sir, T would like for him to explain just what it is thjs minister does and what this de'!)artment is sunnosed to do. Now, Mr. Sneaker, I m(lVe on .to a statement that was made - MR.MOORE~: Before any new government department can be estahlished lep.islation must be hrom1;ht into the House of Assembly, irrespective of any pre-conceived ideas the minister had, I know he dealt with it ~-•ithin a cabinet that made unilateral decisions that mav not have heen - HR.

NEARY: ~~.MOORES: A ooint of order? The noint of order is this, that the honourable gentleman is talkin~ ah out a subject that could not he exp 1 ained until the lep.i slat ion has been nassed at which time :It will he explained adequately, MR.NEARY: Nr. Speaker, it is not a f'Oint of order - the honourable Premier could have exnlained it to the - t-lR. SPEAKER: Order. I think the honourable member should he speakinp, to Resolution No. 5. !·ffi,NEARY: "r. Speaker, I tr , 'erstand that in closing the debate on the resolution that I have a fairly wide latitude.

However, Si.r, here is a statement that 1,•as made by the honourable memlier for Rurin, who just left his seat in this honourahle House, the Minister of Justice. Sir, the honourable the Premier seems awfully concerned whe,·e we are g,~inp. to get the manure to grow mushrooms on Bell Island. Well, Sir, before I am finished this afternoon, before I am finished Sir; this afternoon the honourahle Premier•will know where the manure is coming from. HeT ii; a beautiful statement Sir. Just listen to this Mr. Speaker. You will hardly believe your ears.

He says,"a simple fact that not all of our economic oroblems, not all of our emplovment problems can be attributed totally and comoletely to the geographic si.tuation of this nrovince," ~r. Soeaker, what a joke. My answer to that gem of wisdom Mr. Speaker, p-oduced by the honourable and learned and intellectual member for Tlurin is; so what? Ts it not true that this same thin~ applies 646

/•fay 3 , 19 72 • Tar,e 244. Page 2. in anv part of C<tnada. anv Pal•t of North America or any nart of the world for that matter? Mr. Speaker, if I were the honourahle gentleman I would check with Mr, !-<cLean hefore coming into this House and makinp; such nonsensical statements. There are the ones who are 1;etting the hi~h salaries and the hi g riav in this ])rov:lnce for writing speeches for the honourahle gentleman. AN.HON.ME~BEF: The government made-work programme by - MR.NEARY: Help yourself,!-lr. Speaker, You talk about self-help projects - vou talk ahout self-heln nrojects Mr.

Speaker, it has been help yourself with this government since thev took over on Jan. 18. 11,rr. Speaker if I mav - MR,W.ROWE: On anoint of order - would the Speaker mind giving a ruling that the orime rule of order in debates in this House is that any member speaking is entitled to he heard in absolute silence in the House, would the Speaker so rule? MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent point of order. I am glad that the honourable member raised it. If the honourable the Premier would just keeo his cool, if the honourable the Premier would watch h1s blood oressure,Mr. Speaker, let me carry on in silence.

I guarantee this that I will show them how debates take olace in this Honourable House. Maybe we can get the honourable Premier to break his silence at last. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for Burin, the ~inister of Justice, also made the followin8 statement, All these statements Sir, are taken directly from Hansard.

This is what the honourable member saidi "Newfound- land today is facing unemployment and has faced an unemployment sitiiation that to say the least is staggering. 'rt is," he said,"because the honourable member~ colleagues in Ottawa with malice aforethought and with cold, ruthless calculation made a oolicy de c ision a few years ago that in order to fight :Inflation in Canada Ne,•foundland." 647 n that this 1s what caused the unemployment in

1-fay 3, 1972. Tape 244 Page 3. Mr. Speaker, I say this is a particularly naive statement. The honourable member knows full well.Sir, that prior to Confederation and the coming into Newfoundland of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics and the unemoloyment insurance benefits nobody in Newfoundland even thought of fishermen or bush workers as unemployed in their off-season. They sil"Ply w111rked hard ei:i,ough Mr. Speaker, and produced enough in their on-season to sustain them auite well at a ore-Confederation material standard of livin?. Now, ~r. Speaker, even today with the soohistication of modern statistical methods and devious

definitions we still have a higher unemplov­ JT1ent or a higher er1;,1nyment rate and a greater, an infinitely greater rate of p,.~r capita productivity than we ever dreamed of t~,,enty years ago,Sir, or even five years ago. Now, ~Ir. Speaker, I come to a statement that was made by the honourable Minister of Finance, Sneaking in the resolution, the honourable minister called it, he said, "Well, it is 'gobble-de-gook' • " He said; "}tow can you skim off monies from the oil refinerv etc. when they ., ·e not taxable?" Now ohvinuslv,Mr.

Sneaker, the honourable minister was not listening to what I said jn mv remarks when I was introducing this resolution. "Ir. Sneaker, on this no int :-- would sav that the honourable lllinlster of Finance above anybody else knows nerfectly well what I meant. There is 11 hasic orinciole involved here,Si.r, of ta:.-:i.ng businessmen, industries and individuals that can he taxed so that the government can get revenue, Most of this,incidentally,Mr. Speaker, will come from the mainland of Canada when you are talkinp: about taxing business and industry.

Most of this I would submit s~r, the larger part of it will come from the main­ land of Canada especially from the heavily industrialized sections of the country. Rut, "'lr. Speaker, the honourable m'nister should know full-well that the income tax, the gasoline tax, the sales tax and all the other revenue 648

"lav 3, 1972. Tane 244. PaRe 4. that will come to the nrovince as a result of hujJdin v. this great oil refinerv at Come hy Chance and on nll the other <levelorments that are taking nlace in this orovince todav as a result of the i nitiative that was taken b'\' the rrevious administration , that all these 1>roj ects will r,enerate new revenue. Tn TltY ori1d.nal remark •· , Sir, ];ist week l referred to this, that j s- ,,hy the honourahle member picked me Uf'I on j t because I especiallv mentioned the oiJ refinery -at Come hy Chance.

Sir, as a result all the individuals that wtll be emnloved at Come by Chance, hoth in the construction stage and when the refi.nery is finished will contribute e.1ther directly or indirectly to the Treasury of this Province. There will bP other benefits.Mr. Sneaker, to both the business community a:'d to the nrovincial treasury as a r sult of supplyin~ of P,Oods and services to the oil refinery. You see, Mr, Sneaker, it seems to me that every time we mention the oil refinery in this honourable House the blood pressure of the Minister of Finan ce goes up . 649

May 3, 1972 MR. NEARY: Tape no. 245 Page 1 - MRW I am just wondering, Mr. Speaker, if the hon, gentleman was one of those · who accompanied the hon. Premier on Sunday afternoon to the site of the oil refinery at Come-by-Chance, when Procon sponsored an open house. I hop~, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman was in that party and that he ~id put his hand in the wound and that they can now report to the hon. member for Gander, the hon. absent member for Gander who was so vocal in his protest against the oil refinery a couple of years ago, that there is equipment on the site, that construction is going ahead on

schedule and that there are Newfoundlanders employed on the project and that there is revenue at this moment coming into the Treasury of the Drovince from the project. It is helping us to look after the needy people of the province and to help look after all the other services that are being carried on by government. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that we will not hear the Minister of Finance make any more wild statements like that one but just carrying on i n his address, Sir, here is a beaut! (You would hArdly believe that it came from the Minister of Finance.

You would hardly believe it, Sir.) He sayi;;: "if oil and gas are discovered off the coast, perhaps if we can get better use of further power in Newfoundland and Labrador, our new development corporation ''("perhaps " he says)"in five, six, eight or ten yeas:!\ we will have unemployment rates and so on that will be more in line with the rest of Canada." Mr.

Speaker, this is very true but if we are to pay attention to what the experts, economists and scientists are telling us today and those of us, Sir, who do any reading at all or do any research at all on the subject of unemployment or follow closely the trend of what is happening in the world today, then it is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that unemployment is going to get progressively worst. Sir, this is not the fault of the Tory Government. It is not the fault of the Liberal Government. It is not the fault of an N.D.P. Government. It is not the fault of a C.C.F. Government or Social Credit Government. 650

May 3, 1972 Mr. Neary It is just a fact of life, Sir . Tape no. 245 Page 2 Unemployment is going to get progressively worst and more and more people, Mr. Speaker, will have more and more leisure time on their hands. Unless, Sir, we lay the foundation now for the decade ahead, our people will become viewers instead of doers, I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that I have to tell the hon. members of this House what happened to the Roman Empire when the people became viewers instead of doers. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: It w11s not"McLeans." As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, we are told hy the experts, Sir, and the statistician - if the hon, member uould just listen, he might learn something. Mr. Speaker, in this debate we have seen the grossest example of i~norance, when it comes to unemployment, that I have ever seen displayed in this House. The hon. well-to-do members just do not understand it, Mr. Speaker. They do not. They do not want to. The corporation lawyers could not care less,Mr. Speaker.

If they would just be a little bit patient, pay attention to what I am saying, maybe they will learn something this afternoon, I was about to say, Sir, that we are told by the expei·ts and the statisticians and the economists ( If my hon. friend from Bonavista South does not believe this, he can go out and check the facts. I did not make it up. All he has to do is drop off a note to the United Nations. They will even write his speech for him if he wants it, but they will not read it for him, Mr.

Speaker, He will have to read it himself) that bv the year 2000,which is less than thirty years from now, seventy-five per cent, Mr. Speaker,of the population of Canada will be paid for not working, Even a higher proportion of people in the United States will be unemployed. So, Mr. Speaker, when the hon. Minister of Finance states that perhaps in ten years from now, we may have unemployment rates and so on that will be more in line with the rest of Canada, you know, Mr, Speaker, in his simplicity he may be right. 651

May 3, 1972 Mr. Neary. Tape no. 245 Page 3 By that time we may have fifty per cent on unemployment. But this, Sir, in my opinion, will not solve the problem. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance who had quite a bit to say in this debate made another startling statement.

He said: "If any special works programme is the kind of special works programme that we have had in association with the Government of Canada in the last several years, I for one think it has to be much more deeply thought through, because the Government of Canada are in the habit of initiating programmes without consultation with the provinces." Mr. Speaker, the hon. member if ~e were sincere when he made that statement, would vote for this resolution. The passing of this resolution, Sir, in my opinion would eliminate the problem that the hon, minister of Finance raised in his remarks.

If the province, Sir, wants to pull back or pull out of any of these make-work projects and they wish to protect their own income, then may I suggest to the hon. Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, that we may have to use a little more imagination in developing make-work projects. We may have to use our creative minds, Sir to think up projects chat will be within th,;, ground rules that the hon. minister spoke about. This, Mr.

Speaker, i~ one of the main reasons for this resolution so that we may pool the best brains on either side of this House and come up with a realistic year-around make-work prograillllle, cost-shared by the federal and provincial treasuries. Mr.

Speaker, in my Address in Reply to the Throne Speech, I indicated that if thisgov~rnment are going to live up to the.expectations that they have created in the minds of the Newfoundland people over tl1e past four or five months, then they will have to use the human resources on either side on this hopourable House and not just those on the opposite side who are elected by around fifty per cent of the voters of this House. Mr, Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance in his remarks also advised the House,and members or any thinkini member of this House must have 652

May 3, 1972 Mr . Neary Tape no . 245 been completely startled and caught off guard by the hon. minist~r•s statement . This is really priceless . You would hardly credit it to the hon. Minister of Finance here . Listen to this. Hr. Speaker: "I am advised that automation does not necessarily mean increased unemployment because in this province it is the service sectors of our commercial life that a re increasing fastest . " Hr . Speaker, it is obvious from this statement that the hon. minister is completely out-of-touch with realitv.

Is he trvinp. to tell us, Sir, that the unemployment figures we see and hear so much abou t , esoecially from the "silly six" i n Ottawa - is he tryin~ to tell us that these figures are not true ? 653

May 3, 1972 Tape 246 Is this. Mr. Speaker, is this what the honourable member is telling us , that the figures that we see quoted in the press, that we hear on radio and that we hear on television and that we hear discussed so much from one end of this country to the other, ~r. Speaker, is the honourable Minister of Finance telling us that these figures are not there? · It is not true," he savs. AN HON. MEMBER: Point of order. MR SPEAKER: Order! MR MURPHY: Inaudible. MR NEARY: If the hon. member for St John's Centre does not want to listen to me, I suggest he RO out and dive in his swimming pool . . , t.f.'!l.

Y:QRY_l:Y_: A point of order. M7. Speaker. M_!l_ NEARJ. :. If I · may carry on Mr • Speaker. . JM - 1 _M_R. }i9.~Q~"1.: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should retract that statement about the hon. members that we have in Ottawa today, the federal members. They are not sillv, Sir. He should retract that statement. M__R -~lEARY: Hr. Si,eaker, if I were the hon. member I would just sit and be quiet and listen and he may learn somethin~. Mr. Speaker, it is quite true to say that employment is increasing in Canada but so is unem'J"lovment. Sir, I did not make this up. Does the honourable ~ember for St.

John's South think that I 1ust dreamed that up, I iust picked it off the top of my head? You know what the honourable Minister of Fianance says he said, nwell look,let us wait a couple of years. Wait until all programmes start to take root. wait a couple of years. " Mr. Speaker, I would say that is poor consolation for the heads of households of families in this nrovince today who are unemployed when they come knockinp.: on the door of the honourable member for Bonavista South looking for a job or the honourable member for Green Bay or the honourable member 654

May 3, 1972 Tape 246 MR. NEARY, . .. - - - for Bay de Verde or the honourable member for Trinity South but maybe not the . honourable member for Labrador West. '!he honourable T'lember for St. John's South has quite a bit of unemployment, the honourable member for Hermitage and Fortune Ray ancl the honourable member for Placentia East. The honourable member knows all about unemplovment. 1'1:J:l •. ~_E_AR..Y._; When they coMe knockin? on the door loo kin!! for a ;oh, is this what they say, "Wait two or three years- Oh, wait four or five years. you know resource develonment will take care of a]l this. Mr.

Sneaker, are the honourable gentlemen on the onnosite side so naive as to think that the peonl~ of Newfoundland are going to be so gullib]e as to swallow that excusP..? Certainlv not. The Minister of Finance s.ivs, '·we hope that if we take a bit of a different direction, if we concentrate on resource developments with the new development corpor,'\tion, usin? that it will help to overcome the problem.but we do not expect anything to happen in the ne:ict year or two." ¥aking excuses all readv, Mr.

Speaker, making excuses for not being able to fulfill the promises that JM - 2 were made to the· peonle of this province over the last four or five months. I would get the impression from what the honourable minister said. Sir, in this statement that the government is going into labour-intensive resource development and, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion and any member of this House who is thinking at all kno~.s, Sir, that there is no such animal today. Mr.

Speaker, unless the honourable members on the opposite side want to bury their heads in the sand and think that little Newfoundland is ditferent than any other part of the world and that we can have intensive resource development in 655

May 3, 1972 Tape 246 MR. NEARY : this province when we see the reverse, Sir, happening in the rest of the free world today, they are doomed, Sir, before they start. Mr. Speaker, in the name of common sense how can these labour intensive inrlustries that the honourahle Premier and the honourable Minister of Finance and the other honourable gentleman are talkinr about, how in the name of common sense can they compete? Perhaps the honourable Premier could tell us that when he rises to speak in the Throne Speech Debate, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, here is a dandy and I am going to leave the Minister of Finance for a moment and I am going to go over to .W' - 3 a ~uotation, to a statement made by the honourahle memher for Henriitave, the honourable Minister of Fisheries. He says, referring to mv remarks in introducing the resolution he said. "'Strong words'' (etc.) "Stronr, words,' he said, "An. attack on private enterprise.' Mr. Speaker, what garbage.

My proposal, Sir, if the House were to vote in favour of it,would be a boom to private in~ustry in that it would not only relieve conscientious businessmen like tj,.e honourable gentleman and the honourable member who sits to his left, would relieve these honourable gentlemen of any feeling of sympathy that might cause them to countenance featherbedding on their payrolls but also through distribution of purchasing power, Sir, create consumer level to customers, I am sure the honourable member for Fortune Ray would welcome this news and all the other well-to-do, well-heeled businessmen on the opposite side of the House.

This would be good news, Sir, that if they vote in favour of this resolution, which I hope they will, that it will increase the purchasing power. It will put more purchasing power in the hands of the consumers and, Sir, if that would not benefit private enterorise then I do not know what would. I think. Sir, that they 656

May 3, 1972 Tape 246 MR • "ffiARY : would all benefit 1 rir.:ht from the Prime nroducers rinht on down to the retailer . Mr . Speaker. the honourahle member who made that statement. JM - 4 Hr . Speaker. shouJ cl very well know that Stood government never attacks althou~h it l'lay re~ul;.ite the private enterprise system . Now, Mr. Speaker. lam just ahout comin g to the end of mv remarks but before I wind ur. Sir, t want to 9.et back to the honour­ able Minis t er of J11stice, the honourable and learned and intellectual Minister of Justice.

Here is a quotation he made : "What we will do is encoura~e any Ne.wfoundl ander, any C.ilnRc'i;in or ;inyone else .,iho is nrepared to come into this orovince and invest his monev in developinp . · Mr. SpP.aker. T cannot ona,rel with that. 1 would n,aise the government for its intentjon to follow in the footsteos of t he twP.ntv-tl:it'ee year ol.cl Liberal Government in the effort to attrnct industrfalists. entre1>,enem:s and investors to our province . Rut I also. Mr.

Snf'aker . and I reDent what I s:iid in incroducinR this resolution, that no industri ;il ists, no en trePreneurs wi 11 come to our shores iust to 1>rovide emplovment . He will come. 5ir. to nrocess, as Your Honour rir,htl ,. roin t ed out in that wonderful speech that "oul' Honour made in this House yeste rday that differed from his colleap,ues. Yott know . Mr. 5-peaker, wht>n the honourable member for Plact>ntia \•lest spoke in this House yesterday 657

1"ay 3, 1972, Tape 247, Page 1 -- apb :MR. NFARY: I thought about a re~ark that my colleapue here on my right made in his Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne when he said; 'You have P.r.. 'sand you have Tories on the other side of the House." Well, Sir, after listenin~ Your Honour's soeech yesterday or the member from Placentia West, you also have Liberals on the opnosite side of the House. Sir, if I may say so and I do not want to em1'arrass Your Honour, if I may so, Sir, the member for Placentia West made one of the better soeeches that has been made in this House so far in this session.

It was a great Liber11.l speech, Sir. AlJ the other speeches that we have heard so far from the well-to-do members on the opposite side of the Tiouse were Tory speeches. You could see the battle lines developing, Sir, you could see the difference in the philosophy. You could see the difference taking place between Liberalism and Toryism, Sir, It is a matter of record, 1'-'r, Speaker, MR. MORGAfl: On a point of order, }fr. Speaker. What has this to do with the Select Committee to look into the unemployment situation in this province, sneeches in the House? HR. ROBERTS· -------- Mr.

Sneaker, to the ooint of order,if it be one,~ would ask Vour Honour for a rulinp-. The hon. gentleman is merely commenting upon a speech made by the member for Placentia West, a very good speech in which the hon. member for Placentia West touched precisely uoon the point which is relevant to th:f.s, namely: should the government have a responsibility for providinp work or should they not? The hon. gentleman from Bonavista South, Sir, I suggest has raised a specious point of order. He would do well to withdraw the matter. :MR.

SPEAKER'. (TJarry) Far l·le it from me to curtail applause fqr the hon.member for Placentia West. However, I should point out that there is a limit to which the hon. member can range in his speech. If he could remember that he must keep it within the bounds of relevancy, then I do not think that there is any problem. JI-Ill. NEARY· Thank you, Nr. Speaker. I was about to make a comparison between Liberalism and Toryism, Sir, as it effects the resolution. Sir, 658

}'ay 3, 1972. Tape 21¼7, Page 2 -- apb it is a matter of public record and anybody within listening distance of my voice , Sir , can r-o out and check this any time they want to. It is a matter of public record that the Tories have opposed every social reform that has been brou ght in in Canada in the last one hundred years. It is a matter of public record, Sir, that they opposed the old age pension. The Tories opposed the family allowance, the Tories opposed social assistance. the Tories opposed veteran's allowance, the Tories opposed ~.C.P., the Tories opposed industrial development in this province, Mr.

Speaker. The hon. the Premi e r is taking !!reat pride in goin!! down to officially open the C:hurchill Falls project on June 15. Mr. Speaker, does Your Honour remember what the Tories called J\rincc, in this Fouse when it was formed? They called it 'Bunco.' The hon. Premier will not call it · Bunco when he is invited to sneak at the opening of that rreat oro1ect that has created so much emnlovment in this province, Mr. Speaker. ~-m. . A. J . !"l.TRPPY • The hon. memrer will !!ive a ... ~ ~. Nf.~.RY: There it is, Sir, there it is. There is the difference. It is unfolding before our very eyes. Sir.

I am prepared to bet Your Honour at this moment. at this point in my speech I am preoared to bet Yot:r Honour,if we are allowed to 11:amble in this House,five cents that every member on the opposite side of the House will oppose this great reforn that is recommended in this resolution, the appointin!! of a Select r.ommittee to investigate the feasibility of having year-round make-work projects. Mr.

Speaker, if I wanted to be partisan and I do not want to be in this speech, if I wanted to J-,e partisan and I wanted to be selfish, Sir, if I wanted to be selfish about it, I would say to members on the opposite side of the House; "Vote against this resolution, vote against it.' · because, Mr. Speaker, it would prove, it would prove beyond any doubt to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that they are not concerned about the unemployment situation in this province that exists at the moment.

It is here now, Sir, and if I were selfish I would say; vote against it.· I am hoping that the hon. members will vote in favour of it . 659

May 3, 1972, Tape 247, Page 3 -- apb f·r. Speaker, as I was sayinr a few moments ago, businessmen will come into this province for two reasons, to produce and to make profits. Automation, Sir, investr.1ent in sophisticated technolopy, advanced equipment is the secret to low-cost, uninterrupted production and maximum profits. .Accordinrly, Mr. Sneaker, I sug!'?est stronplv .ind I submjt to the hon. me!'lbers of this House that the f!OVe:rnment is left with the nroblen, of creatinp optional work nrogrammes for its citizens. Work pror-ra!'1Il1es rnincl you, !-'r.

Sneaker, that r:,ust never cornnete in products or demands for skills with the neeiis of the private sector upon which the govermcnt mu!'<t depend through taxation for its total fi.nancial resources unless, Sir,. the government is prepared throuph Crot-m Corporations perhaps to go into business for themselves. I doubt very much, Mr. Speaker, that even the inspired i:zovernn,ent that we have on. the other side will want to do this. The hon. Me!1'ber for St. John's South thought there was a failure of lor.ic somewhere in my resolution. Perhans, ~r. Speaker, this is where the hon.

MeMber misunderstood the principle of the resolution that goverrunent should not become the producer of products and services that are· provided by the pr:lvate sec tor, but should provide wod- not provided by private enterprise,as a matter of principle, Sir. '!r. Sneaker, the kincl of work that I aJT1 suggestin!'? may be the kind (my hon. friend would be -relievecl . to hear this) is the kind of work that may be considered to be uneconomjcal by private enterprise. " 1r. Sneaker, to sum up, the hon.

Minister of Finance thought that the resolution was introduced into this honourable House for debating purposes only. ~r. Speaker, I would like to inform the hon., learned and temperamental gentleman that my reason for proposin~ a Select Committee, was to remove discussion from the area of partisan debate in the effort that the members of this House would see the necessity to pool the best brains of both parties in this honourable House into an effort to cope with growinp: idleness, Sir, which in my opinion is one of the most morale eroc1in~ economic cancers that peor,le are subiected to today, ~r.

Speaker, it r,ives me great pleasure to move this resolution. 660

May 3, 1972, Tape 247, Page 4 -- aph MR. SPEAKER: The hon. members have heard the motion, is the House ready for the nuestion? Is it thP pleasure of the House to adopt the motion. Those in favour of the motion please say ' aye " those against the motion please say •·No'. In my opinion the 'no's" have it. ~ HON. ]l,IEMBER: Devide J-'R. SPEAKEF • 1.AP.. . W.N.ROHE: --- ------- - Call in the members. I am sorry, '1r. Speaker, not divide, Sir , _just on divjsion which means the fact that t ;i.cre were some for and some a~ainst will be recorded in the minutes. ldJI .• P .MOORES (PREMIF:F)_, ~r.

Speaker, I am sure the hon. member knows enough,after all the corrections I have had to dav from his seat and not from the isle. He speaks }.fR.. ROBERTS· ·------- . Mr. Speaker, to the point of order, the Standinr. Orders says the hon. gentleman speaks from his place. J have iust moved this place to here for the time bein17. We will move it back in due course. NR. MOORES, 1"'R . SPEAKER: MP.. W. N. ROWE · ---~· - ---·- --- Back :!.f it is appronriate. :Motion

(6) Nr. Speaker, I have 11lready conferred with the House Leader and he 11grees that he will allow (representing the other side of the Fouse) me to :!.ntroduce this rootion on J:,eh11lf of the hon. 111ember from Bell Island so that, with the provision that he can take a break nm,• and have the opoortunity to sneak at a later point in the <let-ate.

Sir, this motion l>!hich is put on the Order Paper by my hon.. friend, the memrer for Bell Island,asks the House to appoint a select committee to investigate the present and potential dan~ers to hUlllan rights in this province posed by all organizations maintaining credit and personal information on individual citizens for other than their o~~ confidential restrictive use. And that the said select committee recommend such additions to t:he hum.an rights legislation of this province as are necessary to protect its citizens. Sir, before getting into the substance of what I have to say, 661

¥ay 3, 1972, Tape 247, PAge 5 -- apb I would like very much to co~menJ the hon. member for Bell Island for puttinr this motion before the House today. Sir, it is something which is of the f!ravest possible importance to everybody in Newfoundland, indeed to every bodv in Canada and on this continent.

This whole question, Sir, of invasion of privacy generally, not only in respect of credit tenorts or credit information kept by businesses, but this whole idea of im•asion of privacy ~en era] ly, invasion of privacy by private orf!aniz11.tions, jnvasion of privacy b~• public oq~anizations. for example, governments, police. It is perhaps unfortunate, although timely, that on this very day that we are discussing this motion. Edgar Hoover in the United States, head of the F.B.I.,passed away.

I hate to say anytMn7 al,out the lJlan who just passed away, but I would like to say in nassinp tha~ that hon. gentleman perhans represented,in the way that the F.B.I. as a ii:overllI!'ent agency was used in the nast number of decades represented one of the greatest invasions of privacy that the people of the United States have ever had to suffer. The problem of i~vasion of nrivacy by private and public organizations, by the filing of information in computers for examp]e, with astronomical numbers of people's names and personal information being put in these computers and spread all over the countryside.

The invasion of privacy by electronic devices, cameras and by other bugging devices for example, all these things, Sir, this invasion of privacy point and has pointed for some time to the imperative need for controls by everybody_ by governments and by everybody in society, controls over the use of these devices and the use of files being kept on private individuals. There has been much talk about this, Sir, much talk at various conventions, The lawyer's convention of a coun]e of years ago passed some resolutions in Canada on this matter. :1-'uch talk, Sir, l>ut not very much action.

When it comes to the question of invasion of privacy by public orp:.anizations. we are, Sir, for example, governments or the 662

May 3, 1972, Tape 247. Page 6 -- anh police , we are, Sir , confronted by what mipht be described as an age- -old confrontation, an a11e old-dile=a which is confronting and has confrontea civilization,namely the necessity, the gravest possible necessity of maintaininp. some kind of a balance between order and security in a nation and the freedom of the individuals which fro to make up that nation.

There have been in the past, Sir, and I am sure in the future there will be steps tal·en to curb,on the part of f'Ublic organi:c:a.tions to curb the invasions of privacy that have taken place and that can take place with the very sophisticated electronic eouipment and other facilities which are availalile to frOVernment, police and other public organizations in the nation today.

Sir. to cone directly to the point which is involved in this particular resolution, we notice that the same dilemma, the same problem of trying to restore, trying to get a balance between order and security on- the one hand and the freedom of the individual on the other_ this same probler., or this l,ame dilemma does not exist in respect of private organizations, businesses and that sort of thing, or industry.

For example, loan companies, credit agencies, shops and other credit 11ranting agencies throughout the province and throughout Canada, it is not, Sir, when we come to look at these private organziations, it is not a auestion. not the great ouestion of trying to restore a balance between order <Jn the one hand and freedom on the other. When it comes to the private organizations, Sir, these credit facilities ,and these shops and other businesses and other people who use credit agencies, when it comes to those types of private organizations it is a simple question of competing interests in society.

The competing interests betpeen one private group on the one hand and other private grouns on the other hand. It is a competing interest between properly organized business on the one hand and unorganized or disorganized private individuals on the other hand. The question is, Sir, a simple one, it is whether one private grouP-, for example, the organized business 663

}fay 3, 1972, Tape 247, Page 7 -- aph and credit pranting facilities and the other agencies which have grown un around that sort of thing, the question boils down to whether one private group like that is going to be permitted further and in the future to use the massive facilities which we have available to us today,to use those facilities for their own private protection of their own businesses. And to use those faciltiPs, Sir, with an attendant rrreat risk on the part of the individuals in our sod.ety,of their privacy of being invaded by the use of those facilities.

Because, Sir, once we grant the fact that this private organization or group of private organizations can use such facilities, can use electronic devises, can use credit reports, credit studies, once we prant that fact we also have to realize the grave risk that exists of mistakes beinr made, of errors beinp- made and misunderstandings and misapprehen1Sions and sometimes, S5.r, although I he.sitate to say this, the possibility of outright malice on the part of some .people who might use those types of facilities.

Sir, we are talking about people who have credit reports made on them perhaps as a result of nothing more than hearsay evidence which is gathered together by the neople who make that kind of a credit report, or a personal information report. We. see Sir, the possibility and the risk and I do not say insignificant risk, I think real risk of character damage and of destroyed reputations. I see the grave risk of a loss of a person's or family's credit rating. In some extreme cases I imagine the loss of a job or making it difficult for a nerson to get good gainful employment.

Certainly, Sir, the grave risk of serious embarrassment to a man or a woman or a whole family in our society. Sir, the resolution does state something to the effect that it exempts or accepts the use of such information by people or by 664

May 3, 1972 - Tape 24 7, Paf!e 8 -- apb people, businesses for example, for their own confidential restrictive use and Sir, I would say that that would be bad enough, if we merely restricted the use of such information to a business,say, or credit agency so that they could use it for their own particular purposes restrictively without spreading it around, that would be bad enough if that were permitted to go on.

But, Sir, and I think every member will agree, what becomes intolerable in the situation is when a credit agency or some group who are getting this type of information on people, are gathering information on people's credit ratings or personal characters, for that matter, when they are allowed to let this type of information be spread around the country to every other business for example or individual for that matter who wants to pay a fee in some cases, to allow that to be spread around, to let it be disseminated and sometimes allow it to prolifera~e, Sir, and to add on and add on and build up over the years- for this type of thing to go to hundreds and thousands of businesses and people all over the wo~ld, Now today with our sophisticated electronic equipment.

Sir, when that sort of thing does happen, there is no hope if there is a mistake made on a man's character or a man's personal reputation or a man's credit rating. There is no hope of that individual ever again correcting misinformation or bad information or information which only tells half the story 665

May 3, 1972 Tape 248 PK - 1 ira . ROWE , W. N • ~nd even, Sir, if :t were possible for him under the existing law as we have today, even if it were possihle for him to tract it dowt1 and correct it, the simple obstacle which ne is up against is the fact that no member of society in ninety­ nine percent of the cases even knows that this type of information is ept on in files or comnuters.

Sir, the <7uestion therefor(' hoils down to one as to hm,· we. the l'lemhers of this Rouse who make laws for l'!ewfoundland, how we are going to deal Pith these conflicting interests, the conflicting 1.nterest,on the one hand husinesses protectinr. their own financial investment hy having credit ratings and personal renorts on people on the one hand and on the other hand the right of individuals in society today not to have their nrivacy invaded at all and certainl~, not to have their privacy invaded· in a wrongful manner which is i,i:oing to do damage to their credit, their character and their reputation.

Assuming, Sir, without deciding, assuming that it is good generally speaking for society for these types of credit reports to he pemitted at all, assuming that question is to oe answered 1n the affirmative that it will he allowed, that husinesses and other people wj]l he p«rmitted to keep credit reports and personal information reports on people- assum~n~ that, deGiding that - that particular question.

We l'lust rememher, Sfr, the purpose that these reports serve in Canada and in Newfoundland today, as far as businesses are concerned, ~ir, as long as the greater proportion, ninety percent say of these reports are accurate,that is probahly sufficient for their purposes. If there is an occasional report on the occasional person which is wrong, certainly no one wants to have wrong information, hut if there is an occasional or odd report which is wrong, Sir, that is not so had from the husiness point of view because they are talking about giving credit or p;ranting- credit to a wide variety of 666

May 3, 1972 Tape 248 PK - 2 ~R_. ROWE, W.N. poeple and as lonp; as the credit reports are right most of the time and in the oven,helminR majority of times then that serves the purpose of the business community. It is all right from the business point of view even though naturally they will strive for greater accuracy all the time. Businesses are concerned really in general statistically accuracy in the p;eneraJ broad sense of the word. So that generally speaking the credit ratings and credit reports they have do not let them do"'Tl­ They are not.

Sir, although individual members might he from a personal point of view, they are not interested necessarily in the damage that might possihly be done to an individual in society who :i.s unfortunate enough to he amonr that ten percent or less, as the case mipht he, who does have a file kept on him which is highly inaccurate or which is a misapprehension or which is as a result of outright malice. This is the "Tle of person. Sir, that we in this House should be concerned about, that individual, that perhaps small number of peoole i~ our socjety, hut certainly an important number.

He all !"em,;,mber the story reported in a magazine some months or years ago, I do not remember w1,en, of a man, a professionally trained man who went from employer to employer for a number of months or years -looking for work and although he had excellent qualifications found himself turned down by employer after employer. T.t was only after he had gone to the twent1eth or thirtieth employer looking for work,who happen~d to be an acquaintance of his 1 that he found out the reason for it. The reason for it was lhe did not know up to that poj:•

t) the reason for it was that some agency who had taken upon themselves the job of collecting information, perso~al information on such persons,had entered an erroneous, mistaken report on this man in their file. This was spread around throughout the country to all the employers to whom that man would be 667

May 3, 1972 Tape 248 PK - 3 MR. ROWF:...:....W.N. likely to be going to seekinp for a job. It was only after the most arduous activity on his part with legal help and legal suits that he was able to get this misrepresented information, this erroneo, ~s stuff kept on him on file , to r.et it changed and have the record set straight. He did not know for years that this information had been kept on him. That is the type of person we should be concerned about in this House of Assembly, Sir.

I am not too concerned and I do not suppose any honourable member here today is too concerned about a good credit rating being spread around about any honourable member or anybody else or a good credit rating being spread around ahout a person who in fact has a bad credit rating. Or a bad credit rating heing spread around when the person has in fact got a had credit rating , although a lot of people would give you argument on that on the grounds of 'invasion of privacy.

What we are worried about, Sir, is had information heinr spread around the countryside about a person who in fact has a good credit rating or a good character or a good reputation. He are worried about that type of inaccuracy or that ty~e of misrepresentation.

The · occasional wrong report which is received by the files and put into the computer which is of no real concern,as I have said , to the business groups or the credit-rating groups themselves,which is of paramount concern and important to the individual who happens to he damned hefore the eyes of employers or stores or businesses hecause of information which is erroneous. Nobody knows, Sir _ and there is no way of finding out how many inaccurate or erroneous reports exist on people in Newfoundland today.

No honourable member of this House knows at this moment whether his credit rating or personal character or reputation is reported accurately. Nobody knows. There may be mistakes made an1 nohody knows outside of this House if there is accurate reporting done, if reporting has to be 668

!-'!ay 3. 1972 Tape 248 ~- ROWE, W.N. done, j_f there is accurate credit reporting or character reporting done on that individual. PK - 4 But. Sir, we should have that information. We should he able to r.et that information and that type of information should be acceptable hy every memher of our society in Newfoundland. Now, Sir, 1 do not pretend for one moment that it is an easy problem to deal with. Pe do have as I have mentioned these conflictinp interests, the need for this type of thin?.. credit rating, credi~ reporting,if hm;inesses are to carry on and flourish with a minimum of risk.

He have the other interest,of a person not havinr, his privacv invaded and not havinp his reputation or character impugned groundlessly. Asstm1ing, Sir . the need of such renorts, the question is, how are we in this House or in the Parliament of Canada going to protect the individual citizen? What is the hest method of approaching the problem to protect the individual citizen?

The motion, Sj_r, makes a sten in the right direction. i:t asks for a select committee of this Eouse to inouire inti.' the whole problem and a select committee of this flouse would have incuml:-ent on it the duty of looking at other legislation in other iurisdictions, of reading the reports of expert opinion, of receiving the information of witnesses and neople ,•ho should know some of the ani.wers to these orohlems, to hea-r reports of witnesses who might be called before it. S:fr.

I do not want to anticipate at this time the job of such a r;elect committee which Jam sure will he passed hy all memhers of th:f.s House or the settinP- up of such a select committee will be passed by all members of this House, J do not want to anticipate the work of that COl!'.mittee. Rut it seems to me on momentary reflectj_on that what we need in the Province and what we need in Canada are better laws nrovidinp for easy access hy individual citizens to files whi.ch might be .kept on them by credit agencies or other such agencies. 669

May 3, 1972 Tape No. · 249 NC - l We need, Sir, laws and regulations goveroing the collection of such information by credit agencies or by other people keeping personal reports on citizens in society. We need regulations to govero the collection of such information.

When I was practicing law; Sir, and any members of this House who might be unfortunate enough to be a member of that profession will remember coming across their desks,on numerous occasions, reports from certain people, whether it be insurance companies' credit reports, reports comin~ across their desk in respect of their clients, for example, or in respect of the person who they might be suing or defending against.

Often this type of information which is contained in the file, is based on a report of say an adjuster, knocking on doors in the neighbourhood surr <llmding an individual in our society and collecting from neighbours and acquaintances information effecting the character,reputation, credit worthiness, and there are a number of other things, of the pecson under scrutiny or under examination. Information, Sir, which would be thrown out of any court of law, as the purest kind of heresay.

Information and evidence, Sir, which would not even be looked at by a judge. or by a good lawyer, as good evidence which could be sustained. This is, in many cases, probably too many cases, the type of information which a number of these reports are based on. So, Sir, there is a need for laws and regulations to govern the collection of information on people, if we are to admit as a necessity the need for credit reports and character reports to be made in the society we have today.

We need, Sir, some laws and regulations governing the storage of such information, where it is stored, how it is stored, in computers, in files, whether it should be registered. for example, we need laws concerning the storage of such information and certainly, Sir, we need laws and regulations regarding the spreading of such information. Should credit agencies here in St. John's or Newfoundland be permitted to send off ,to another agency on the mainlanc· information effecting a resident of this province?

Should, on the other hand, agencies in this province be permitted to receive into their confidential files, information 670

May 3, 1972 Tape No, 249 NC - 2 concerning somebody else on the mainland or a resident of this province who might have been on the mainland of Canada. We need, Sir, laws which govern and regulate the destruction of files which are kept on people in this province, after a period of time. For example, and this would guard against misleading information or erroneous infor~~tion heing kept in perpetuity and kept on and on and on, destroying a person's life for credit worthiness for years and years to come.

Perhaps, Sir, laws and regulations which state that after a number of years, five years, six years, any files kept on a person in credit agencies or other business agencies have to be irrevocably destroyed and started afresh,have indeed got to be kept in business or in credit agencies today. We need, Sir, laws and regulations governing the registration of agencies, to stiffen up laws and regulations governing the registration of agencies. Laws which require the names of individuals and workers and members of the staff in these agencies to be registered for public view as an added protection.

Sir, we need laws and regulations providing for the investigation by a public body, by somebody acting for the Government of Newfoundland who in turn is acting for the people of Newfoundland. Investigation by a public body)as a result of any complaint received by an individual in our society that perhaps his character i,.as been impugned or his credit worthiness has been destroyed by a credit report which he has reason to believe exists Md which is erroneous.

Sir, I think perhaps that we need some laws and regulations which require files on residents, files dealing with the credit worthiness or reputation or character of residence of any person to be actually registered and kept in a building or institution, a public building or institution, near the place of residence of that resident or citizen of Newfoundland.

For example there is no reason why a registry could not be set up in the Confederation Building, in Comer Brook, in Grand Falls, Gander and other larger towns around the province, especially in Labrador, as my hon. friend to my left will agree, the lat·ger towns and communities 671

May 3, 1972 Tape No. 249 NC - 3 in this province to have files 1kept on residents of this province, put into these institutions, not that they can be open to public search by anybody who mi~ht want to go in, but if an individual desires to check on reports which are being used to either destroy or build up his reputation or credit worthiness, he can in fact go to a registry and see what is on file concerning him.

Then if it is wrong or he has reason to compalin, he then should be permitted to either appear before a court of law to have the thing remedied at no expense to himself, or to appear before a board which could be set up for this particular purpose to have the misinformation corrected. Sir, there is no doubt about the need for heavy penalties if we are to provide against the violations of such a code to be set up in this province. Sir, there probably should be laws and regulations requiring, on request, a credit agency to divulge to a citizen what the source of their information on him is - by name.

Why should anybody in this society of ours today be impuvnecin character or reputation or credit worthiness and not know who his accusors are or who is giving the mis­ information on him. This, Sir, would certainly go a long way in curbing this information being spread. Because if a person is asked a question about another person, he will watch his step in giving such information if he knows that he would be liable perhaps to heavy damages as a result of a libe1 or slander suit being brought against him.

These Sir, and a hundred other matters are matters which are designed beautifully for this select committee which this motion recommends be set up by this honourable House. These and a hundred other matters should be looked into by such a select conunittee with a view to assisting the ~vernment of this Province, I do not care what government is in, to draft good, solid, sensible legislation protecting the rights of individual citizens who might be damaged or destroyed by misinformation being spread about concerning their character or credit worthiness. I support the resolution whole heartedly. 672

May 3, 1972 Tape no. 250 Page 1 - MRW MIL NE,'\RY: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for White Bay South Mr. Speaker I will be very brief in what I have to say. The hon. member will have his chance to speak. I want to thank the hon. member for White Bay South for introducing this resolution on my behalf and giving me a chance to recharge mv batterv. I want to congratulate him, Sir, for making another excellent and wonderful speech in this honourat',le House.

Sir, as one of the senior members of this honourable House, it does my heart good to hear a member like the hon. member for White Bay South stand in this honourable House and make such an outstanding speech on behalf of the people of this province. I would think, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has a great career ahead of him in public life in this province. Mr. Speaker, I was talking the other day to Ron Pumphrey that well-known moderator of VOCM's Phone Forum. Mr, P mphrev is a gentleman who has had quite a bit to do with battling for the rights of people in this province.

Mr, Pumphrey told me about a lot of the cases that he has had to deal with but I think the one that struck me more than all the others was one that affected a well-known man in this province (I will not mention his name. He is a well-known man. I think everybody probably knows of the case) who had his credit-rating destroyed in error because there was another man in the province by the same name. Now, Mr. Speaker, this man went to the credit bureau and he pointed this out. He told these peqie that they had made a mistake. He identified the wrong person and they promised that they would correct the situation. Mr.

Speaker, several months went by when the gentleman discovered to his amazement that the matter had not been corrected. The matter had not been corrected and his credit-rating was still being affected by this false information. As the hon. member for White Bay pointed out, once a chain reaction is started, Mr. Speaker, nobody knows where it ends - "around and around it goes and where it stops nobody knows." That gentleman does not know to this day, Mr. Speaker, if that situation has been rectified yet.

On the other end of the spectrum, Sir, I heard of a man who could not get credit because he always paid cash Just imagine, MR. Speaker, he had no credit rating! He had been paying his way all his life, paying cash: 673

May 3, 1972 Tape no. 250 Page 2 Mr. Neary Now he goes to buy a car and thev say to him, "no, you are a poor risk. We cannot sell you this car onfue installment plan. You do not have any credit rating." What kind of nonsense is this? Then you have the situation - the hon, member for White Bay South referred to, calling on the telephone. People will call up without identifying themselves looking for information about your neighbours. Mr. Speaker, I know this to be a fact. I do not know if hon. members' wives(in this honourable House)have had the experience or not or any of their neighbours on the street.

Somebody will call up asking for embarrassing,confidential, private information about their neighbours. Do they pay their bills regularly? Are they a good risk? M,. Speaker, I submit t~ this honourable House that this has to cease. Anybody, Mr. Speaker, who saw the last edition of "Here Comes the 1970 's " on television, must have been startled to learn what can be done with bugs today; what can be done with cameras; what can be done with telescopic lens; wire tapping; telephone tapping, etc. Sir, it is incredible. It is unbelievable the things that you can do with these instruments.

There are people within listening distance of my voice right now, Mr. Speaker,that· no full-well what I am talking about. I cannot say for sure that there has been bugging going on in Newfoundland. I cannot say it for sure, Sir. But I can tell Your Honour this?that there are people within listening distance of my voice who are experts on the matter, on the subject. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, if I may, _ that is a direct insinuation on everybo~y in this Chamber. I believe this thing should be straightened out now. I do not want to be under any suspicion that I have bugged anybody or anything else in this House.

I do not think we should allow - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speak.er, I could set the hon. member's mind at ease that it is not an hon. member of this House that I am referring to. I hope the hon. member for St. John's Centre will stop bugging me and let me 674

May 3, 1972 Tape no. 250 Page~ Mr. Neary. carry on with my speech. I was not referring to any hon. member of this House. Mr. Speaker, I am certain that there is not one single member of this House who has not had the experience personally or has not had to listen to or has not read about abuses of human rights through the releases of information on individuals and families from the files, the secret files, Sir, as far as those individual families are concerned, maintained, Mr. Speaker by so-called "credit bureaus or agencies." Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, they should be called discredit agencies.

Time and time again, Sir, the information which they release to their clients 1in return for a good healthy fee I understand,has been found to be as falsely and mistakenly based as it is damaging to the reputation of the individuals whom it involves. My concern, Mr. Speaker, like that of the hon. member for White Bay South is that these files are kept secret from those who they most cnnccrn and who, most suffer from the circulation of whac is truly false and libelous information.

I hope, Sir, that if the House will agree to set up this select committee that the proposed select committee look into the whole matter with a view t..:• setting up a framework of proposed legislation that would be in keeping with the spirit of human rights lef;islation currently on the statutes of this province. It would protect all individuals against not only the invasion of privacy but against, ~r. Speaker, the assassination of character, often times as much a moral assassination as it is financial. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am aware that the hon, member for St, John's Centre is anxious to spring to his feet(or the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs) to get into this 675

May 3, 1972 Tape 251 J'M - 1 ~- NEARY: and I know, Mr. Speaker, that he will tell us ahout the motions that he introduced in this House this afternoon. I want to say to the honourable Member before he rises in his place in this· honourable House to soeak,that members on this side who are elected in a free and democratic way by the people of this province certainly have a right to participate in anv recommendations or suggestions that are made, and the hono1irable member is noddinf! his approval, that will result in legislation being brought into this honourable House to improve the Human Ripht:s Legislation.

I wonld say that it is not sufficient for any honourable member to bring fn a couple of hills in this honourable House ;m<l iust hrush it off and let it i:,o at that. I would say·. Mr. Speaker, and I hope the honourable member wil 1. approve that the whole matter should be referred _,to a select Com~ittee and not only decided by the fifty-two per-cent on the opposite side of the House that were sent here hv the voters of Newfoundland. MR. MJRPHY: Mr.

Speaker, following the greatest menace to human rights in this province, a gentleman who has done more here in this honourable Chamber,and p,ot away with it,to try to destrov people,and hear him get him and trv to chamuion the cause of credit - Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I demand, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable member retract that statement because it is completely- untrue. MR . . ROWE (ILN.): Even if it were true he is not allowed to say it. ~ ...::...!~A~Y: Mr. Speaker. it is unparliamentary and the honourable member should retract it immediately. On a point of order. Mr.

Speaker, I have stated my point of order and I have asked the 676

May 3, 1972 Tape 251 JM - 2 MR. NEARY: honourahle member to retract the statement be~ause it is untrue. MR. SPEAKER: Woulcl the honourable member like to retract his statement. 1'~--- -~~!_Y_: Mr. Speaker, H I may, this afternoon this honourable p.entleman made a statement about six honourll.ble members of Parliament ;md called them silly. · in other words thev have no sense. Now if that is not tryinr! to destroy someone, their teputation. They are not fit to be in the House of 1>c1rliament if they are silly.

Last year in this honourable House he had the nerve to /!et up and brand a p.roup of employees of a certain station as a bunch of "fairies.,. "low if - MR. NEARY: Mr. Sneaker. on a point of order. ·-- -.. . - NR. MURPRV: ·- • ... -·-- Let me state mv case, j_ust a moment. You have been talkinp. for two davs - ~- NEARY: Mr. Sneak.er. could we have a rulini? on the point o~ order? ~ - SPEAKER: Order ! Woul<l the honourable member like to rephrase his statement? !1R • MER.PHY : Mr. Speaker.

I hate to tell a lie but if I want to continue with my few words I will ~nst say that the honourable memher for Bell Islan<l has done nothinr. whatever to brinp. forth a case of any evidence ap.ainst anybody or anv misrepresentations against anvbody, nothing in the world. !-IR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. "lo'I-J the honourable member has put it in a different way but, Vour Honour, he has not retracted the ori~inal statement and I demand, Your Honour, that the member for St. John's Centre retract the statement that he Made. I want to point out to the honourable memher in this House, Mr.

Sneaker, that the statement that I made that he referred to 6'i'7

',fay 3, 1972 Tape 251 MR. NEARY: ahout a certain radio station in this city,I later apolop,ized in this House for that statement and the honourable meMber,if he is an honourable man and a man of principle an3 honour t h.it he ~retends to be,then I demand that he retract that statement that he made. Sir. M_R_._ ~HY: If the honour ab] e member will retract the statment he made about the six members of Parl iitment in Ottawa, I will retract my statement. ~fR. NEARY· ~r.

Sneaker, I am not enterin?- into a bargain with the honourable pentleman because in mv speech the words that 1 JM - 3 used we.re not unparliamentarv but the words that the honourable meMher for C:: t. John's Centre used are unparliamentary. not hecominr. to this House and as the honourable member for Bona vista •forth savs, ' He should be put in the penalty box and he should be made retr~ct. " A.~ HON. MEMEER: Or he should be removed from the Ilolise. MR_~- _R._q_IJ!:. _ _(_v_l. Jl_ .J..:. Mr. Speaker, if I could have a word on the point of order.

The question, Sir, is not what the honourable member for Tlell Island has uttered before this House concerning anybody outside the l-louse. Whether what he said was ill-advised or not. some may think it ill-advised, some may not think it ill-advised but that is not the question before the Bouse. The question before the House that Your Honour has to decide is whether the statrnents made by the Minister of Provincial Affairs were unparliamentary statements and if they were, Sir, then he has to withdraw the statements made concerning the member for Bell Island. MR.

SPEAKER: -·-- ··--··· The Chair rules that the statement was _,unparliamentary and would like for the honourable member to retract his statement. ~ ..:.. ~P1!-V: :. Mr. ST1eaker, on a direction from you T. will withdraw these words. As I said earlier. Mr. Speaker, after the motion was 678

May 3, 1972 Taoe 251 MR. MURPHY: moved and the honourable member for Bell Island spoke to it. I wanted to sneak at the ~ime to, I said I could avoid any further discussion on this particular hill because I gave notice today of a hill dealinp. with the selfsame mrtters that had been discussed. This bill was drawn. and I mav brim, the date, on .January 7. 1972 but it iust was not broup.ht in because the motion was moved the past few davs and I think the honourable members on the other side will aporeciate that yon inst cannot draft bills in three or four hours.

So we are discussing this motion and T think it is a motion .JM - 4 very well taken, the ideas behind it are very well taken and following the debate reference was made to character assassination. if you like. not only in credit but i~ many other ways and I have alreadv referred to statements that were mac:le in this House, whether you retract them or not, reminds me of the storv of this lady who went to her minister anrl she said, "Look. I said something ahout so and so next door _,. It was not a minister of ::'ab:lnet; it was a clergyman.

She said, "I said someth:l.ng about Mrs. so and so next cloor, what can I do to rectify it?" He said, 'You !l'et a bar: of feathers and P,O out there in the door and throw them in the wind ancl when you have everv feather back then you have undone the damage that you h1tve done. ·' Now that is whv I was so interested and his statement appealed to me. the member for Ronavista North the other dav where he said thP lanruage in this House should be, at least, an example to other neople. There are a bunch of young people here today and they heard today that Mr. Carter, Mr. McGrath, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Lundrigan, ~r.

Peddle are silly persons, silly, absolutely silly, not absolutely but just silly. Now these young people were told that and here we 679

Mav 3, 1972 Tape 251 JM - 5 ~-- -~J:l!y'_: have six honou r able irentlemen . in my opinion. in Ottawa and I include 'It . .Jamieson. six f rom Newfoundl and representinp thi.s p rovince of ours who wer e t'] ected bv the p<".ople and I say chis t hat in my oninio n none of ther.: a re silly . T think thev are f"OOd sensible ~en tlemen :m rl r think that stat er.ent sho\tld not have been Macie in t his Rouse . l!e c!id not have to tal-c> it l>ack. !-le iust izot - AN HON •• MF.:MHER • H.as he been fined vet?

MR._ .MD:R.PHY.: The hononrah 1 P. me!'lber for ~onav ista North is huildin!! a bnll r,en or a penal cv hox . Bue on this. and l think everyhodv is nw11re that 1 c ann0t discu s s thi s bill i.n anv detajl At the present t ime as i.t has no t been p roperly r,laced before thP. Hous e , b11t I c.1n assure the onrositi on and evervbocly in the House that thi s hil l is fairly comprehensive. If the honour a ble member for Bell Islan d or l·.'hi t e Rav South or anybodv else wan ts to add somethin$l in t his bill I ;ir, s11re th'lt thP.y c:an r ec up and speak on jt.

They have the nerf ec t ri~ht to debate it and c\iscuss it the same as :mybody e.tse. It is one of many hil ls that h~ve been brourht in an~ there are others with re1?ard to credit c·ard ~rantin p. and this tvne of thi.n~ and I think the honourable rentlel!la n said this was in the machine before. I t hink , this rovernment took over . So as I say, to put off anv fu rther debate on the thin~ and I certain] v hone t hat this will serve the purpose that this hill will he introduced as soon as possible.

Members will be P.iven copies and they will be allowed to r ead them and )?:O throup.h them . study them the same as anybody else and if there i s 660

M2y 3, 1972. Tape 252 Page 1. anvhodv that has anything to add to the Bill or anything else I am sure that this House is here to debate these Hills~do everything in their power to provide the best legislation we can.

It is something that is always talked about the rights f creditors, the rights of this one, but every­ ~odv has a right and it is not only neople that charge stuff hut the guy who sells them has a right to find out if this guy is really, is he a good reliable gentleman in the life insurance business. \-le have the same thing ~,e sell a lot of insurance on non-medi al terms we take a statement from a client, he tells us this that and the other thing.

Many cases after investigations are made ,~e find that people have been misreoresentinp, the facts, so it is somethin~ that we have to consider in all phases of human justice and human charitv. I think we have to look at the whole thing. As far as we are concerned I think I speak on behalf of the government because after all government is introducing the Hill through my department. We are quite nrenared to place this Hill there for comnlete discussion and to nrotect the neople who Rre lookinp, for credit.

There are manv ~h~se.s there and I think they are pretty well covered by a lot of the members just what pattern should he followed. This is goinf' to he looked after. But for Heavens Sake when we are discussinP' things let us discuss them and trv to discuss them in a proper vein, the honourable member for Hell Island always seems to be a little. bit to me off the way , I think he is the only ne.rson in Newfoundland that took the Dale Carnegie course backward. I mav be wrong. I do not know if tha't is unnarliamentarv or not. Hut he certainlv, I think he certainlv did it.

Jlis remarks are anything J-,ut charitable towarrls other members or other neor,le. Quite honestly he sneaks at p,reat lenp-th, he alwavs manaRes to drag individual members into it I do not think there js a place for it . 8ut honestly, in my oninion we can do without it, J think the newer members particularly are I do not think there is Rny great apnlause for this tvpe of thing. We have 681

"av 3, 19 72 . Tane 252. Pa1!!e 2. a lot 0f husiness to be done. We were sent here by our oeonle to do the business of the House, as I said earlier, T mentioned it to the honour- 11hle gP.ntlel'len earlier in the dav, I sho,,·ed - yesterday the unfortunate thinp- I went over to show him the Bill when he introduced it but I told him todav wp could save a lot of debate because this Rill was comin!! before the House. So the onlv thing that I can sav 11r.

Sneaker, is that this Bi lJ is drawn ,m it is as comDrehensi ve as the nrevious government could make it, ,Ie mav make a few alterations but faithfully it is all set out in that so, I do not think it is necess?rv for any select committee. M~.HICKM.I\N: ~r. Speaker, I would like one hrief comment on this· resolution. As the honourable Minis·er of Provincial Affairs has nointed out to the House a lH 1 J will be introduced encomoassins> the nrotection that has been referred to hv the honourable member for Rell Island. Now selec't cnmmi.ttees make a great deal of sense in certain areas.

Last year there was a select committee that was set nn to brinf! hack a renort nn a matter of great imnortance to the,fishin~ industry. Select committees have been created again this year to studv matters involving the functioning of this House. Rut surely, Mr. Speaker, anv issue that -ls canahle of debate when a bill is before the House this is what the House of Assembly is all about.

If the honourable members on the opposite side do not agree with the bill ,,hen it comes before the House, if they have any amendments or subsnbstance thev will he gi· ·en the kind of consideration that they deserve, and they will be implemented. So, for that reason Mr. Speaker we on this side of the House cannot support this resolution. Now, Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet with the leave of the House I would like to make a very brief announcement. if I may of some importance.

I would like to inform honourable members that this afternoon the Board of Commissioners ' of Publ:i.c Utilities handed down their decision in the apolication by CN. for a rate increase in the passenger fares on the 682

~1c1y 3, 1972. Tape 252 Page 3. husses operating within the nrovince of Newfoundland. I am very pleased to i.nform the House that the government won its case. /Is vou know Hr. Speker, t\e government opposed the apolic-'l.tion, the Board of Commissjoners of Public UtiJ.itjes have dismii:;sed completelv the application of CN and directed that CN pay the cost of the hearin~. 683

May 3, 1972 Tape 25 3 PK - 1 MR. W. N. RrJWF: Hr. Speaker, if the honourable minister will allow, I am sure he would like the House to know that it was the previous adm1.nistrlltion who appointed Mr. 0 'Neill. I was Acting t-<inister of Justice at the time and if there is credit, and credit there shriuld be in this partic11lar case. to be given then it should he shared around in an unpartisan fashion, Mr. Speaker. AN EON. MF.HRCR: Inaudible. !j_R._.i C?.B.~_JQ'£;:_ Mr. Speaker, if the instructions were e:iven the hill wil) he paid. So more power to the nresent administrati .on.

The glo,,• of non-nartisanship which suffuses the ~inister of Justice, ernanatinl? ( ''emanates ' might be the right word) c>n aura prooells me into the debate. T have listened with a very ~reat deal of interest to the speeches made hy my colleague for White Bay South and my colle-ap.ue for Rell Island in between the television cameras,and more and more this House is coming to exist, T decided, Hr. Speaker, for the henefit of one minute on the television news. T!1e hononrable gentleman not heen asked today, it is an off day, his photoRenic colleague the ~Hnister of F.ducation is up there today. Rut, Mr.

Spea~er, after listening to the speech made by the ~'inister of Provincial Affairs and the sneech ,short though it might have heen,hy the Minister of Justice, T do feel I should say a word or two, first of all on the riuestion of a select committee. Now both honourable gentlemen have been in this Fouse as long as I have and the gentleman from St. John's Centre who is the ·ninister of Provincial Affairs has been in the Fouse longer than I have. He may not he there for a longer time in total, but he has been returned by the people of St. John's and I believe on three occasions, 1962 - ?-!R. :MURPHY: Four. ~!R.

ROBERTS: Four! MR. 1'-nJRPHY: Inaudible. HR. ROBERTS: No, I want it for the record, Four times, Four, well 684

!fay 3, 1972 Tape 253 PK - 2 ¥:R. ROBERTS: the honourable gentleman has five fingers on one hand, so he is good for a fifth time after that he gets into trouble. He has been returned. He has been here since 1Q62 which makes him one of the veterans. Indeed only the p:entleman from Fogo who is unfortunately absent today because of illness in his family, I may add for the benefit of the Premier, his son-in-law has not been to visit him recently. ~IR. '100RF:S: J am sorry. I did not hear you. MR.

ROBERTS: ~ir, I said, the honourable gentleman for Fo,ao is absent hecause of illness in his family, hut I added for the benefit for the Premier that the gentleman's son-in-law has not been to visit him recently. I think the Premier knows ,,,hat J am referring to, if not I will leave it to hi"1 to puzzle it out. !fr. ~peaker. I was surnrised to hear the remarks hy the Minister of Provincial ,\ff airs because he has obviously missed completely the point of a select committee or the purpose of a select committee.

He points out and although we cannot anticipate the debate which w111 come on, I believe, three bills of which he gave notice at three o'clock today, He pointR out that there are a numher of hills on the Order Paper or which will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper which,to an extent we do not know - ,,e have not seen the hills, but to an extent and possibly to a total extent ,-6.11 deal with the same subject matter as the Resolution which stands in the riame of the honourable gentleman for Bell Island. That is good and I congratulate the ministery on bringing in this legislation.

J think it is good legislation and I was one of those who had a hand in bringing it up. I think it is time we had this in Newfoundland. Hr. Speaker, to say,as the honourable gentleman did and as his colleague the ¥inister of Justice repeated,to say that the introduction of a hill will serve to replace the purpose which a select committee could accomplish or indeed will obviate that purpose that, Sir, I submit is to miss completely the point of a select committee. 685

May 3, 1972 'Yape 253 PK - 3 ~m. ROBERTS: Now if you will allow me, Hr. Speaker, at the risk of telling Your Honour what Your Honour already well knows, a bilJ will come before the Pause and it will be debated in principle at second reading stage and at committee stage it will he debated in detail and clauses can be discussed,at third reading. as is first readin,z,is usually a formality, unless there is a six months hoist or something along those lines. 686

May 3, 1972 Mr. Roberts. Tape no. 254 Page l - MRW That is fine. We can discuss the bill and we will discuss it. But, Mr. Speaker, we cannot in the House have before us witnesses or anybody who could make any contribution to the debate othe