LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Thursday , 20 March, 1980 Time : 2:3 0 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER , Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birt le-Russel l): Before we proceed , I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the loge on my left where we have Mr. Laverne Lewycky , Member of Parl iament for Dauphin constituen cy . We also have 50 students from Grade 9 to 11 Standing from the Ross L. Grey School in Sprague , under the direction of Mr. Norman Sprague , and this school is in the const ituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson.

We have 10 st udents of Grades 7, 8 and 9 Standing from the Hugh John Macdonald School, under the direc tion of Mr . Sinclair . This school is in the const ituency of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre . We have 70 students of Grade 9 Standing from La Verandrye School in Portage, under the direction of Mr. Wickberg . This school is in the constit uency of the Honourable Member for Portage. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welco me you all this afternoon. Presenting Petitions • Reading and Receiving Petitions • • Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister without Portf olio . HON. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West ): Mr . Speaker, members will be pleased to know that the officers and directors of the Royal Manitoba Winter Fair in Brandon have again extended an invitation to the Members of the Assembly to join with them at this year 's showcase of agricultu re in Manitoba and, Mr. Speaker , through your off ice , these arrangements are being made with the consultation of the House Leader and the House Leader of the Opposition.

I beli eve that the date is Wednesday , April 2nd and that arrangements have been made that the House will not sit on that day in order that members may be able to journey to Brandon and to take

part in this ob servance. I beli eve that the bus

schedule is for 11 :3 0 departure at the Legis lature , but I would expect that the precise details of the visit and the times will be circ ulated to the members in advanc e of Wednesday , April 2nd . Thank you. MR . SPEA KER : The Honourable Minister of Natural Resource s. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney ): Mr . Speaker, I wonder if I might ask leave to make a brief statement concerning the runoff predicti ons, that through an oversight I don •t have the copies with me for distribution, but I would see that they were dis tributed to the members as soon as possible . MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Kild onan . MR . PETER FOX : On a point of order, Mr . under Ministerial Statements yet , and if that is has about five minutes in which to get copies. through the Xerox . Speaker , I do not believe we are the case , the Honourable Minister It only takes a minute to run it MR . SPEAKER : Shall we wait then for the copies to be brought in? MR . RANSOM : I'm sorry , Mr. Speaker , I thought the honourable gentlemen opposite didn 't wish to give leave and so I sent the copy out to get some copies made. We 'll distr ibute them later then, Mr . Speaker. - 1231 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . SPEAKER : Minister ial Statements and Tabling of Reports. • .N otices of Motion ••• Introduction of Bills. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister respons ible for the Environment pertaining to the answers which the Minister pro­ vided to us this past Tuesday , pertaining to the existence of PC Bs in the City of Winnipeg . Can the Minister indicate to the House when the isolation of the PC Bs took place after the disc overy of same in October of 1979 by his department? MR .

SPEA KER : The Honourable Minister of the Environment . HON. WARNER H. JORGE NSON (Morris) : Mr . Speaker, when we were advised of the presence of PCBs at J. Werier and Company, we had advised him that there would be disposal companies in the area if he wanted to make arrangements to have the product removed from his present . And a follow-up investigation on February 15, we noted that the PC Bs were still in the storage area in which we had asked him to place them, and to the best of my knowledge , that material is still in storage. MR .

PAWLEY: It was dif ficult to hear so I may have not heard the Minister properly but can the Minister confi rm that the isolat ion of the PC Bs to separate storage did not take place until late February or early March of this year? MR . JO RGE NSON : I can't advise my honourable friend precisely the date that they were removed . I will have to check into that. All I know is that he was advised to place them in sep arate storage and they are current ly in sep arate storage. MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker, if the Minister could answer now or he may wish to accept this as notice , as to whether or not the removal of the PCBs into separate storage did not in fact take place at the behest of the City of Winnipeg Heal th Department rather than at the behest of his department. MR . JORGENSON : The infor mation, Mr. Speaker, is that we advised him that he was to remove the PC Bs into separate st orage and he was provided with the techn ical information and the requirements .

He was provided with the proper labels for the drums and he was also provided with the names and addresses again of disposal companies which he could contact in order to dispose of them. MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, again the Minister may wish to accept my question as one on notice.

Is the Minister in a position to assure this House that none of the PC Bs in fact had leaked from any of the containers and that in fact each of the four containers were full and there had been no leakage of any PCBs during the period of time from the discovery by his department until such time as the PC Bs were transferred into isolated storage? MR . JORGE NSON : I have been advised , Mr. Speaker , that the drums are wrapped in plastic material and they are not leaking . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Kil donan on a point of order. MR . FOX : Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

Having noted that the Minister of Environment now has copies, we are prepared to revert to Statements so he can make his announcement . MR . SPEAKER : Order , order please . It 's very difficult to change the format once we have establi shed the procedure we 're in. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. - 1232 -

Thursday, 20 Mar ch , 1980 MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to pursue my area of discussion with the Minister . Can the Minister advise as to what system presently exists pertain­ ing to monitoring of the PC Bs , whether same is being done on a regular basis and to ensure against disposition or leakage, and advise as to whom is responsible for the present monitoring if same exists? MR . JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker, that is a question that I bel ieve that I will have to seek more information on.

I am not sure that I can provide precise information that my honourable friend has asked for and I would prefer to take it as notice . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . GA RY FILMON: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources . I am wondering if he might be able to give us an update on projected flooding conditions in southern Manitoba at the present time . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Kild onan on a point of order . MR . FOX : Yes, Mr .

Speaker , I believe you made a ruling on that and I believe the Rules of the House are that we do not repeat something on which we have already made a decisi on on in this House . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Kil donan in my opinion did not have a point of or der. The Honourable Minister of Natural Re sources. HON. RANSOM : Mr . Speaker, I thank the Member for River Heights for asking that question. MR . SPEAKER : Order please .

May I suggest to the honourable member that if he has a point of order he should raise it at the end of the question period , or if it 's sufficiently important he can raise it now. The Honourable Member for St . Vital . MR . D. JAMES WALDING : Mr . Speaker, I understand it is customary under our rul es, as well as under Beauchesne , that a point of ord er must be raised immediately that it arises and I am arising on a point of order . I wish to remind you , Mr . Speaker, that you have admonished members of this House on several occasions previously that answers to questions are not to be of considerable length.

My point of order , Mr . Speaker, is to suggest to you that you assure yourself that the answer coming from the Honourable Minister is not intended to be of inordinate leng th . MR. SPEAKE R: Order please . Members anticipating things, I suggest to them , have not a legitimate point of order. The Honourable Minister of Natural Resourc es . The Honourable Member for Rupertsland on a point of order. MR . HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr . Speaker, on the point of order , it appears as though the Minister is now attempting to do something which he was not able to do under Ministerial Statements because MR .

SPEAKER : Order please , order please . The honourable member has no point of order. Does the honourable member wish to brin g forward a point of order? Let him proceed . MR . BOSTROM: The point of order is, and the House Leader in this House appears to think that points of order should not be raised by this side . Mr. Speaker, the point of order is that if a Minister is making a Ministerial Statement to the House he should be providing copies to the Ho use, and this side should have the opportunity to respond to that Ministerial Statement . - 1233 -

Thursday, 20 March, 1980 MR . SPEAKER : Order please , order please . I have ruled out any Ministerial Statements today. FLOOD REPORT The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources in answer to a questi on. MR . RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Member for River Heights for asking the question and giving the people of Manitoba an opportunity to know what's taking place. I can simply respond , Mr.

Speaker, by saying that the information that is available in detail form will be released to the media at about this time , but very brief ly , the prospects for any type of flooding on the Red , the Assiniboine , of the magnitude that we experience d in 1979 would be con­ sidered as less than 1 percent . There is some opportunity for - opportunity is not the correct word - some possibility of slig ht flooding in the western part of the province where precipitation this winter has been heavier than normal . Bu t, in general , the outlook is very favourable for not having any signif icant flood ing .

ORAL QUESTIONS Cont 'd MR . SPEA KER : The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS. JUNE WESTBU RY : Thank you, Honourable Minister of Natural Resource s. Mr. Speaker, my question is Is the Minister aware that • to the MR . SPEAKER : Order please . May I suggest to the honourable member that she rephrase her questi on. Questions of awareness are highly unparliame ntary . MRS . WESTBU RY : Oh, I'm very sorry , I was not aware of that , Mr. Speaker .

Would the Honourable Minister comment on reports to the effect that a draft memorandum of understanding has been prepared , which is proposing that the Garrison Diversion cover an acreage of 32 8,0 00 acres, as opposed to the 96,0 00 acres which was the recommendation after Canadian and Manitoban representations had been made ; and which is an increase over the original proposal of 250 ,000 acres which were protested so strongly ; and that the Secretary of the Interior has requested $12 million to keep this on hold? Would the Minister be kind enough to comment on these? MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Natural Resourc es. MR. RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, first of all , I just would li ke to correct one piece of misleadin g information in the honourable member 's question, and that is that the 96,0 00 acre proposal of the Interior Department was put forth after consultation - whatever the word the honourable member used - was between Manitoba and the United States. Such is not the case , that recommendation for a 96,0 00 acre project was put forward on the basis of internal discussions and disputes within the United State s.

There has in fact been no official consultation as was recommended by the International Joint Commission . Manitoba's position , which was Canada's position as well and was firmed up last Mar ch, approximately a year ago , was that we do not want any water from the Missouri drainage to be transferred into the Hudson Bay drainage , whether it 's from a 96,0 00 acre projec t, a 250 ,000 acre project or a 32 8, 000 project. That position , Mr. Speaker, has not changed. MRS . WESTBU RY: Mr . Speaker , I thank the Minister for clarif ying my mis­ understanding on that.

Since the action group against Garrison and the National Farmers Union are going to Washington in April to protest the projec t, is the government planning to give them any moral support or letter of introduction or any financial support towards the cost of the journey to Washington in order to ensure that the views of individual Manitobans are put forward at the meetings? MR . RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , Manitoba's position on Garrison has always been one that has been a reasonable one in the early stages of consideration of the project .

It was a non-part isan issue at that time ; I bel ieve it continues to be a - 1234 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 non-part isan position as we have moved towards the position of simply not wanting any transfer of water from the Missouri to the Hudson Bay drainage. We are very pleased to see individual people and individual organizations making the views of Manitobans known to the United States and to the citizens of the United States. We think that that should be done at arm's length from government .

We would not want any perception that government was in any way the backers of groups that are standing in opposition to the Garrison proj ect , and while we commend them for the action that they are taking, it is not my intention to provide any sort of finan­ cial assistance. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supple­ mentary . MRS . WESTBU RY: Mr . Speaker, would the Minister then advise the House whether he is providing them with any letters of introduction or any kind of moral support along that line? MR . RANSOM: Mr .

Speaker, they haven 't asked for letters of introduction, for one thing, and I daresay they don't need lett ers of introduction and I daresay they would be bett er off without letters of introduction from the government be­ cause they are standing on their own as organizations who have taken a stand to protect the interests of Manitoba ; and surely those organizations have sufficient merits in their makeup to be able to stand on their own. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR . SAMUEL USKIW : Mr .

Speaker , I would like to ask the Minister of Finance whether he can indicate to the House whether the government is prepared to intro­ duce measures at this ses sion that might in some way alleviate the high interest rates and in particular with respect to home mortgages? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAI K (Riel ): Mr. Speaker, the member 's question, of course , is very timely because of the increase again in the effective prime rate of the Bank of Canada, which is no longer called by that name.

The problem does become one of increasing concern and is being examined by the government in Manitoba despite the fact that we have no control over what is happening at the federal level. It is still under consideration. If and when there is something to be announced , the member will be the first to know of it. MR . USKIW: Would the Minister elaborate whether or not the government has under consideration measures to alleviate the interest rates for homeowners, as well as for the small business community of Manitoba, or whether it is just restricted to the homeowners, or the mortgages on homes? MR .

CRA IK: Well, Mr . Speaker, if such a program is undertaken, as I sa id , the House of course will be the first to hear of it . I wonder if I could reply to the member 's question from yest erday regarding the interest rate to the provincial agencies. The last rate establis hed was in January, it was 12 percent , and the next one will come due in April within a matter of a couple of weeks and it would be reasonable to expect , as I indicated yest erday, that with the current Canadian rate being roughly 14 percent , that the rate to the agencies which is adjusted quarterly , would be somewhere of that order.

The us ual format is to put the rate at roughly one- eighth of one percent above what the government could borrow on in the Canadian market . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourabl e Member for Rupertsland . MR . BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Resources and relates to the Garrison Diversion Proje ct . Can he update us as to the impact, the potential impact , of this recently announced agreement between the U.S. federal and North Dakota State governments, which will increase the size of the Garrison - 123 5 -

Thursday, 20 March , 1980 Divers ion Project? A specif ic question, Mr. Speaker, will this recently announced increased size make it more likely that waters from the Garrison Diversion Project will in fact enter the system of waters in Manitoba? MR . SPEA KER : The Honourable Minister of Natural Resource s. MR. RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, I would like to make it clear that I do not have any detaile d infol'lllation on the alleged memorandum of underst anding . Information that I have is that which is available to all members, as reported in the media today.

Any efforts that I have made , to this point , to gather infol'lllation have been fruitle ss . I expect we will , probably within hour s, be able to gather some additional information. I also understand that when Governor Link was asked about the existence of a memorandum of underst anding , he indicated that he didn 't know anything about it . I would suggest that the report at this time is highly speculative and unt il we know some details of it , I am not in a position to comment .

Beyond what I said be fore and which I must therefore reiterate again since the member has asked the questi on, we do not want any Missouri water in the Hudson Bay drainage , whether it 's from 96,0 00 , 250 ,000 , 32 8, 000 or whether it 's from one acre . If there is a transfer of water , we see it as potentially being extremely damaging to Manitoba's interest and we don't want it . MR . BOSTROM: Mr . Speaker, can the Opposition in this House and the people of Manitoba be assured that we will have better action in this matter than we 've seen from the Minister of Environment in this government? MR .

RANSOM: Well , Mr. Speaker , I think that 's rather a revealing comment . It isn't really a questi on, I guess . It should be eminently evident to anyone that to date the position that the former government had taken and the position that the federal government had taken and that our government had taken, has been succ essf ul because in fact there has been no transfer of water from the Missouri basin into the Hudson Bay drainage basis; and as long as the discussions are tak­ ing pl ace within another sovereign state , it is not Manitoba or Canada's respons ibility to interfe re .

When there is some position indication that Manitoba's interests are being threatened , then we will take additional action. We will reinforce the position that we have taken to now. On the basis of a speculat ive report , which the honourable member evidently cannot cast any light on, we are not able to make any further st atement than we have made to this date . MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Rupertsland with a final supple­ mentary . MR . BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

My question speci fically to the Minister then, will he endeavour to investigate this matter to ensure that the federal government of the United States and the North Dakota state government are not making plans which will be detrimental to the water system in the Province of Manitoba? MR . RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, I expect that the honourable member was aware of all of the stud ies that took pl ace, the activities that took place while he was in government .

I can simpl y assure him that our government has simpl y continued with an extens ion of the positions that were being developed by the government of which he was a member and that we are taking every action that we think is proper for a provincial government , in concert with our federal government , to take and we are conforming with the recommendations that the International Joint Commission made with respect to this problem .

We have taken action to make our views known directly to the executive level of government and to Congress and to the Senate in the United States, as the House will recall , when our First Minister made direct representation some year and a half ago. I would like to assure the honourable member and to assure all the people of Manitoba that our government will continue to do whatever is right and proper for us to do to protect the interests of Manitoba. - 123 6 -

Thursday, 20 March, 1980 MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkst er. MR. SIDNEY GREEN : Mr . Speaker, to the same Minister . In view of the dif ficulty that the Minister is having obtaining informat ion, does the Minister consider it of any value to contact the federal government , which the primary agency in connection with this matter , to see whether the further intervention of the International Joint Commission, or the obtaining of information by the International Joint Commission can facili tate the Minister's present dif ficulty with regard to what is presentl y happening? MR .

SPEA KER : The Honourable Minister of Natural Resource s. MR . RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, I'm not sure how much difficulty we are really encountering in finding out the information. The press report s, the media reports, only were made this morning and I would expect that we will have additional information fairly shortly . We c ertaily will use the avenue of the federal government , as we are using other avenues, to attempt to get at the facts behind the alleged change in the proposal . It 's conceivable that it doesn 't in­ cl ude the Hudson Bay drainage.

It could be a project that is entirely within the Missouri drainage . Until I have that information, it 's impossible to do more than speculate and I don't think that that would be particularly productive . MR . GRE EN: Yes, Mr . Speaker , I would li ke to direct a question to the Minister of Heal th. Has the Minister of Health received any information to the effect that the people in Notre Dame de Lourdes have now lost their medical practitioner because of the difficulty between him and the hospital unit in the area? MR . SPEAKE R : The Honourable Minister of Heal th. HON.

L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry ): Yes, Mr . Speaker , the information was conveyed to me this morning that the doctor in question at Notre Dame has resigned . I would also take this opportunity to respond to the Honourable Member for Inkster with respect to a quest ion he asked me last week and I think I said by early in the week I might have more information.

Unfort unately my only response can be one of still assuring him of awaiting information, awaiting the results of an investigation that has been undertaken at the request of the board and at the request of my office to satisfy all parties that proper medical ethics were observed and proper justice was done . MR . GREEN : Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact , which I'm sure the Minister will accept , that the loss of a medical practitioner , particularly in a rural community , is a rather serious develo pment , is the Minister able to do any­ thing to se e whether the situation, as between this doctor and the health unit , can be conciliated so that there will be no interruption of the doctor's services. In other words, is the resignation something that can be looked into by good offices of the Department of Health to see whether there can be any change? MR .

SHERM AN: Well, I've tried to acquaint myself with the facts of the matter , Mr. Speaker, as they have been available up to this point . There is a strongly held and legitimate polarization of opinions as between the board and the doctor in question. Neither side is happy with the other side. I think perhaps that that is the most dis creet way that I can put it at this point in time .

But the question that the honourable member raises still requires to be addressed and every ef fort will be made to help the board of Notre Dame recruit another doctor as quickly as possible and to supply service on a temporary basis during the interim . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplem ent ary. MR . GRE EN: Yes, Mr . Speaker . The Minister indicates that efforts will be made regarding recruitm ent . I ask the Minister specifically as to whether there - 1237 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 is anything that his dep artment can do to try to conciliate as between the doctor , who I understand is very well respected by the people of Notre Dame de Lourdes, and - the unit so that the resignation be reversed , that one not accept the fact that there is no possibility of resolvin g the dispute . MR . SHERMAN: Well, Mr . Speaker , I'm not optimi stic that the disp ute can be concil iated.

I will assure my honourable friend that I will make a further re­ quest of both sides to see whether peace can be achieved but the board is the primary authority in th is kind of situation and the board has not asked me to intervene . I will be in communication to see whether they would li ke me to at­ tempt some kind of a role of mediation along the line that the honourable member suggests . I must say, from my knowledge of the case , Mr.

Speaker, I'm not optimistic that there will be either a retraction of the doctor 's deci sion or a retraction of the position that the board took in support of the administrator . MR . SPEA KER : The Honourable Attorne y-Genera l. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne ): Mr . Speaker, in response to some earlier questions from members of the Oppos ition , relative to the Ackland in­ quest .

I wish to advise members that a decision has been made , that my department will make an application as soon as possible to the presiding judge to re-open the inquest to hear additional relevant evidence relat ing to the fatality. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR . RUSSELL DOERN: Mr . Speaker, I'd like to commend the Attorney-General for that statement and that action . I would li ke to direct a question to the Minister of Community Services.

Since the government's funding of day care centres is inadequate due to inflation and rising costs , and may force parents to remove children from day care centres throughout the province, would the Minister consider providing additional financial support to day care centres? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Community Service s. HON. GEORGE MINAKER (S t. James) : Mr .

Speaker, without accepting the state­ ment that the financing is inadequate , I would remind the honourable member that the amount of money going to day care centres this year has been increased by 12 percent , which is over half a milli on dollars and to date I've had no indication that there is a reason that people will be pulling children out of the Day Care Centre Program. MR . DOER N: Mr .

Speaker, I would ask the Minister why the government did not provide an increase in the $2 .00 per day maintenance grants which have been frozen at the 1976 level and which are , according to prominent spokesmen and direct ors of day care cen tres in Manitoba, the crux of the problem. MR . MINAK ER : Mr .

Speaker, firstly , Manitoba is the only province at the present time that has a universal grant in the day care system of $500 a ye ar, and I think it is incorrect to increase the maintenance rate of $500 per year to pro­ vide spaces for famili es who have two incomes and may be earning $40,0 00 or $50 ,000 or $60, 000 a year and ask taxpayers, who are earning $1 5, 000 with their childr en at home and being looked after their mother , to pay towards this subsidy any further than $500 a year. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementa ry . MR . DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, my concern is with lower and middle income fami­ li es, and I say to the Min ister that there is a concern that 's been expressed publicly by the people who are in the busines s, that the present per diem will be a burden and will result in lower enrolments in day care centres and will ulti­ mately lead --( Interjecti on )- - I ask the Minister this for the benefit of the Minister of Government Services, whether he has any concern as the people in the - 123 8 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 busi ness that there is now going to be a deterioration of day care in Manitoba, as we know it ; and some people have even suggested that this will even lead to the destruction of day care centres in Manitoba, as we know it . MR . SPEA KER : Order please . I suggest the question is argumentative . The Honourable Member for Rhineland. The Honourable Minister of Government Services . MR . MINAKER : If I could answer that question that was raised by the Hon­ ourable Member for Elmwood .

I would li ke to suggest to the honourable member that we are concerned about the low and middle income people in Manitoba, and that is why we increase the salaries that the famili es can earn that are subsidized by 8 percent this year. As a matter of fact , a two-p arent , two-children family can earn up to $19 ,870 per year , and that's their net take- home pay after they've had their deducti ons taken off their cheques . That is the point where the subsidy is cut off, so that we are concerned about the low and middle income people . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR .

ARNOLD BROWN : Thank you , Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resource s, I wonder if he could tell this House whether he has been contacted by a delegation from North Dakota that would li ke to come to Manitoba to disc uss the Garrison Diversion. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources . MR . RANSOM: Yes, Mr .

Speaker , I can inform the member that there will be a group of legislators from North Dakota - I think termed a Legislative Overview Committee - that some weeks ago asked for an opportunity to meet with the govern­ ment and, I presume , explain their position to us with respect to events lead ing up to the Garrison controversy and issues that are now taking place . And we have agreed to meet with them in the buildi ng at 10 o'clock , next Tuesday morning. I would like to make it cl ear that this is simply for an exchange of information, at their request .

It should in no way be construed as being any offic ial negotiation or consultat ion over the issue and so far as I know, is unrelate d to the alle ged memorandum of understanding which has just recently been disc ussed in this Chamber . MR. SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Churchil l. MR . JAY COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of the Environment .

Can the Minister confirm that the federal government provides a 24-hour Canadian Transport Emergency Centre number which provides information and advice in respect to transportation accidents ; and can the Minister further con­ firm that the Province of Manitoba has never been in contact with this emergency centre in regard to the vinyl chloride spill at MacGregor? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs . MR . JORGEN SON : Mr.

Speaker, it would seem to me that my honourable friend is still unaware of the fact that the spill , the accident , is the responsibility of the federal government through the CNR . If they choose to contact that agency for assistance that was their responsibili ty , not mine , and I don't know whether the CNR contacted them or not . I know that there was a chain of command that took place, which takes place at every accident . Division headquarters are notified and from there on notification goes to various people , and through that seri es of notifications , our department was notified .

Now, whether or not they contacted the federal group , I cannot say , but I know that they were on the scene . MR . COWAN: Yes , thank you. Can the Minister take this opportunity to of­ ficially confirm that the total est imated gallonage spil led at the MacGregor site is approximately 12 ,000 gallons, and can the Minister indicate how much - if that information is available , Mr. Speaker - how much of that spil led vinyl chloride has alre ady evaporated into the atmosphere and how much of it is est imated to re­ main on the ground? - 1239 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I he sitate to provide that information, since it is the responsibil ity of the CNR to provide it , and al l I can do is repeat what the-Vice-President of the CNR had said the other day that there were approximately 12 ,000 gallons that had leaked out, 3130 0 gallons from the leak in the valve and the remainder from the other car. They have the figures, I have not measured the cars . I can only take their word for what they say the spill amounted to. MR . SPEAKE R : supple mentary . The Honourable Member for Churchill with a final MR .

COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. The sec ond part of that question was if the Minister can indicate how much of the spilled vinyl chloride has al­ ready evaporated. Can the Minister indicate if further testing and further ambi­ ent air monitoring for vinyl chloride levels will continue to deter mine how fast the vinyl chloride is evaporating and how much of it remains on the ground , and can the Minister give us some time-table as to how long that test ing will continue? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs . MR . JORGENSON: My underst anding , Mr.

Speaker, is that the test ing will continue until there are no further readings , and how long that .will take I cannot tell my honourable friend . MR . SPEAKER : Order ple ase . The time for quest ion Period having expired , we will proceed • The Honourable Minister of Heal th. MR . SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have consent of the House before Orders of the Day to revert to routine proceedings so that I can table Manitoba's presentation today to the Health Services ' Review Committee , chaired by Mr. Justice Emmett Hall and the background information to that presentation . MR .

SPEAKER : Has the member got consent of the House? (Denied ) I'm sorry , the Minister does not have the consent of the House to table at this time . ORDERS OF THE DAY MR . SPEA KER : The Honourable Attorne y-Genera l. MR. MERCIER : Mr . Speaker, I move , seconded by the Minister of Government Service s, that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House reso lve itse lf into a committe e to consider the supply to be granted to Her Maje sty .

MOTION presented and carried , and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Civil Service ; and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Depart­ ment of Highways and Transportation. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR . CHAIRM AN , Morris McGregor (Virden ): 4. (a) . The Member for Ste . Rose . I call the com mittee to order. MR . ADAM: Yes, when we adjourned yesterday , Mr.

Chairman, I was quest ion­ ing the Minister on last year 's appropriation and I was trying to clear up figure s on the special warrants that were issued , or requested , last year, which were added to the last year 's appropriation and I wanted to know whether all these funds were expended . As I understand it , if I took the figures down correctly , that of the $6 . 5981 I think the Minister said $6 .6, of that $6 .5 98, $2 .8 16 was used for maintenanc e, which would bring the figure up from $32 ,1 75, 000 and adding - 1240 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 the $2 ,816, 000 would bring it up to $34 ,9 81, 000 or almost $35 million. Is that correct? MR . ORCHARD: Well , Mr. Chairman, the reason why I always say approxi­ mately , I don •t deal in exact numbers, and as the member can well appreciate that anything that appears in any figures that we have for this fiscal year which is not ending for another ten days, any figures that we present are the best possible guess that we have; and that includes the special warrant .

When that special warrant was drawn up the first part of January that was the best guess we had as to what we thought we would need to finish out this year till March 31 . That 's why I always don 't give exact numbers because it 's impossi ble to give exac t number s. The only time you can give exact numbers is when you go back into the Publi c Accounts book and that is the final audited statement for the dep artment 's expenditures and of course that won 't be available for six months from now. So , you know, in terms of us ing approximate figures, that's my rationale behind it . You can't give exact figures.

MR . ADAM: Yes, well, I accept that as $6 .6, the Minister said, you know, that 's fine . Are my figures correct then that $2 .8 16 ••• I wish the Minister would verify whether it 's $2 .8 16 or $2 .8 60? I want to veri fy that figure because I belie ve the Minister did answer some questions to the Member for St . Vital and I ju st want to get that figure correct . MR.

ORCHARD: I wouldn 't know which one I used because , as I mentioned , a $50 ,000 variation may se em pretty dramatic , but it 's not very much when you are deal ing with approximately a $35 million appropriation at this stage of the game before we finish our number crunch at year end . MR . ADAM: Well , whichever figure it is, if the figure is 52. 860 or if it 's 2. 816. Is that correct , either one? Is either one of those figure s - does that bring it up - is that what was taken out of the Special Warrants for Maintenance? MR . ORCHAR D: That's the ball park figure , ye s, Mr . Chairman. MR.

ADAM: So that would leave , we 'll say , Warrants - we ll , roughly , a ballp ark figu re . 66 is Warrant , 2.8 16 or 2.8 60 . The balance is 2.5 8, okay. go; what was this used for? 3. 584 out of the Special the figure for the Special Now, where did this money MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, there 's a number of things . There is over $2 mill ion in constru ction, actual highway constru ction. MR . ADAM: There 's 2 million ••• MR . ORCHAR D: 2.3 milli on, to be . MR. ADAM: 2- 3? MR . ORCHAD: In rough number s, yes . MR . ADAM: Of the Special Warrants was added to the 68.3 ; is that correct?

So that leaves us now with 1. 28 4. MR . ORCHA RD: Well , I forget the exact figure but there 's approximately $9 50 ,000 in salaries that was in the Special Warrant to be added in. MR . ADAM: To be added into the salary part of it. That came under Spec ial Warrant? MR . ORCHARD: Yes, that's right . That always comes under Spec ial Warrant, because you never make a sufficient appropriation at the beginning of each year 's Estimates to cover the settl ement you end up having to agree upon with the Civil Service and MGEA . - 1241 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . ADAM: That leaves us now, Mr. Chairman, with roughly $300 ,3 00 .00. MR . ORCHAR D: There 's a number of things - there 's winter roads and transportation services - have all picked up littl e bits and pieces. MR . ADAM: I see . Some of it went into the winter works roads. Can the Minister give us a breakdown so we can transfer , not the small amounts, but I would imagine the largest portion of it went to the winter roads. That 's about 50 perc ent of that appropriation, which would leave us almost $200 ,000 to account for yet . MR .

ORCHA RD: Well , then there 's special warrant for stockpile of bridge materials and gravel supplies and that, as well. MR . ADAM: That would cover the $200 ,000 pretty wel l? MR . ORCHA RD: You see , we run into a problem here where we have got an overlap. Part of the maintenance over expenditure was due to salaries which you 've got lumped in at $9 50 ,000, a part of the ne t $2 .8 was salaries, so that the $950 , OOO should be left . You 're not going to come up with an exact figure doing it this way, because you know that salaries are a portion of all the appropri­ ations . MR.

ADAM: Did I understand correctly or am I incorrect? I understood that in the Minister 's reply to the Member for St . Vital when he was questioning this speci al warrant the other day in the reconciliation , whether there was not a part of this - and I be lie ve the Minister answered me with the same answer when I asked him if this was all expended - and I of course was asking about the $32 million - and the Ministe r said , ye s, that 's all expended but not the special warrant .

I understood the Minister the other day, and I stand to be corrected of course , I understood from his answer to me yest erday that part of this was not expended yet . How much is it? MR. ORCHA RD: Only, Mr. Chairman, what we 're going to expend over the next ten or el even days . And it may be , and we don 't know yet , but it may well be that the month of March was a very gentle month which we didn 1 t anticipate back in January when we wrote up the special warrant , and maybe we 111 have $100 , OOO or $200 ,000 saving and have a major saving in the special warrant , that appropriation we made.

We won't really know that until we finish the actual maintenance year . That's why , Mr. Chairman, we can never be specific dollars and numbers . When we come to Publi c Account s, we will have the exact figure . We will know whether our budgeting on the special warrant provision was correct back in January after we finish the year end and we've got our full winter maintenance months and time behind us and accounted for. MR . ADAM: At the end of the fiscal year, whatever what is unexpended will be lapsed and go into general revenue s. Correc t?

And if there is a shortage of fund s, there will have to be a speciald warrant issued . Is that correct? MR . ORCHAR D: Yes. MR. ADAM : Okay. I want to move to the other • •• MR . CHAIRMAN: 4. (a) . • • MR. ADAM : Just a moment , Mr. Chairman, before you leave . There is other components of the maintenance, such as ferries and airports and so on. MR . CHAIRMAN: That would be found under (

e) probably . MR . ADAM : Where? MR . CHAIRMAN: (e) , (

d) and (

e) mayb e. - 1242 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . ADAM: Marine Service. Before we move away from this item, the Mini­ ster said we have 12 dist rict office s. Could the Minister give us a breakdown of how much maintenance work was put into each of the district offices? MR . ORCHAR D: Mr . Chairman, the dep artment hasn 't made the division of the maintenance budget by district offi ce. MR . ADAM: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that if Dauphin requests - is there not a breakdown in order to �eep tabs on what each district office is doing and where the expenditures are going? Are there no records of that? MR . ORCHAR D: Mr.

Chairman, each district offi ce 's budget is calculated each year. But it involves not only maintenance, but many of the other programs that the office undertakes, which are part and parcel of other appropriations. We can give him the amount of money that each district of fice expends; that is, I belie ve , readily available , is it not? MR . ADAM: Yes, I wou ld certainly like to have those figures. If you 're going to give me a global figure of all the activities that take

part in Dauphin , you have the sign manufacture and all these other components. It woul d seem to me , Mr . Chairman, that if we are not doing that, that we should be keeping track of how much maintenance work was done in a particular district , how many roads were - h ow much snow we had to plow, and so on. It seems to me that we should be able to get figures for that. I would think that that would be a good way of keeping track. If that is not kept in that way, it would appear that there is a possibility that a district office could juggle funds around . The Minister shakes his head .

Now, if my statement is incorrect , then perhaps he woul d be able to tell me whether that could happen or not. Then he must have a figure for each expend iture . MR . ORCHARD: You see , with each operation that a Highways district office undertakes, there is - for instance , on patching, there is a patching crew for a district offi ce, and that sort of thing - and we make cost comparisons between dif ferent crews to assure that a crew is operating within a a guideline in terms of patching per square yard, the cost per square yard . We operate an overall cost control.

If we see District 11 coming in at $40. 00 per yard patching cost and District 3 at 25 , and District 3 is cl oser to the average cost , we 're going to jump on somebody in District 11 for not fol lowing the procedure properly . That's how we cost control within the district of fices to make sure that no office is operating ineffic iently . MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Ste . Rose . MR. ADAM: Well, all the more reason , then, for my suggestion that we should have a breakdown of how much maintenanc e each district office is doing, whether they're going over their Budget on maintenance and the reason for it.

It seems to me that this should be available on request . --( Interje ction )- - We 're on maintenance . MR . ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Deputy advis es me that we think we can up with the dollars spent on maintenance by each district in total, if that figure would help him. MR . ADAM : Well , I would prefer to have a breakdown from each district for the maintenance. That 's what I'm asking for . MR . ORCHAR D: Well , that's just what I sa id . MR . ADAM : And I'm wondering why it 's taking so long to • • • MR . ORCHARD: We don't have it . - 1243 -

Thursday , 20 Marc h, 1980 MR . ADAM: Well , I know you don't have it , but I'm saying , why it should take so long to get the Minister to agree to provide that information. I'd li ke to get a breakdown on what each district office is spend ing on maintenance and I would like a breakdown on the other items , too, as we go in, Mechanical Division, and so on , warehouse, whatever . We should have a breakdown on it . Because we 're not talking $50 , OOO - as the Ministe r said, it isn 't very much - we 're talking about $35 mill ion and so on. But I want to say , Mr.

Chairman, that from time to time the Minister has - not only this Minister , because we haven 't te sted this Minister yet on that particular point - but I know that experience tells us that the Minister undertakes to provide information, well , yes, we ' 11 get it for you and bring it in, and it never comes through , and we never follow it up . A lot of times they say , we ll, we 'll provide the information for you , but it never seems to get back to us . So I would hope that the Minister wil l be able to provide, this and could I know when we could get this in formation? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Ste. Rose has my personal assur­ ance that we will provide that information for him before we can compile it . MR . ADAM: Pardon me , that you will MR . ORCHA RD: When we can compile it, it will be made available to you . MR. ADAM: Okay. Yes, then perhaps , before we move away, I did speak abou t the staffing of 771 - is there any part of this staff that are not covered by MGEA or union contract?

Are there any that are excluded from the contract , and if not , is there any plan to remove any part of those 771 hourly employee s, is there any proposal to remove them from the union bargaining? MR . ORCHA RD: Well , I'll just wait, Mr. Chairman. Notable question s. MR. ADAM: All rig ht , th en, we can move away from that. Perhaps the Minister could give us an overview of what 's happening in the airports and ••• MR . CHAIRMAN: Again, we get a committee - (

b) is Airport s. Okay, then, (a) • MR . ADAM: Well , just a minute . I be lieve one of my coll eagues wants to ask a few question s. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Point Douglas. Yes? MR . DONALD MAL INOWSKI : Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister con­ cern ing Highway 44 , which is leading north from Winnipeg to, say , Selkirk. It was brought to my attention that it is a four-l ane highway, but the shoulders are in very very bad shape. Is the Minister contemplating to put new shoulders down there , or repair this piece of highway between Winnipeg and Selkirk? This is a four-lane highway, almost. MR .

ORCHARD: There are no construction plans for - and I believe that's not 44, but rather No. 9. MR . MALI NOWSKI : Oh , no, no , no , 44 . No , no , Mr. Chairman, there 's Highway 44 that goes from Winnipeg to Selkirk. Pete. A MEMBER : Have you got a map? MR . ORCHARD: Would you care to have a • • • You see , that 's going east , MR . ADAM : Yes, just hold it for a minute . I' 11 take this quest ion. In regards to the Maintenance Program, it would appear that with the special warrants that were provided last year in addition to the regular appropriation, we had a - 1244 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 bigger maintenance last year, than we will have this year , if there 's no further appropriation. Is that correct? MR . ORCHARD: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that 's correct. But then, if one follows the reasons for the special warrant on maintenance through, last year we had a bigger flood that we 're going to have this year, and last spring we had a dirtier spring than we 're going to have this year . That is one of the unique features of trying to budget a program which is a lot dependent on the weather . MR .

ADAM: But it 's still only the $2 .8 million that we can at tribute to the extra costs of fl ooding and so on, is that correct? MR . ORCHAR D: By and large , that 's the additional cost . The flooding and the additional snow for the month of Apri l, which is in 197 9-80 budget year, last year - April of last year. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4.( a)- -pass . The Member for Point Dougl as . MR . MAL INOWSKI : Mr. Chairman, I would li ke to apologize . Yes, you were right . I was thinking about Highway No . 9 and talking about No . 44.

Actual ly , this is No . 9 and , as I mentioned previously , that it was brought to my attention that really not only a right line , but al so the shoulders on both sides are very very dangerous, and many holes and those kind of things . So , I would li ke to ask the Minister if he is contemplating to fix, to take care of it , because this is under Maintenance . MR . ORCHARD: Well , if there 's hole s in the shoulde rs , certainly ••• MR . MALI NOWSKI : In the should ers , close to the main strip of highway . MR.

ORCHARD: Right , that's not unusual over the winter period to have that kind of pothole development on your should ers. That will be brought back MR . MALINOWSKI: I know that this is a normal thing , but is the Minister is contemplating to fix , to take care of it? MR . ORCHAR D: Well , Mr. Chairman, per chance, if the honourable member would have given me a chance to finis h, I would have indicated to him that such repairs of the shoulders are a normal maintenance program that we undertake in the summertime , and that will be done . MR . MALINOWSKI : During the summertime? MR . ORCHARD: Certainly. MR.

MALINOWSKI : So , specifica lly , are we talk ing about June , July? MR . ORCHAR D: Well , Mr. Chairman, each district office knows the kind of maintenance work it has to do, and they

schedule it according to the area of greatest need and the area of greatest repair . They 're going to repair the most urgent things first , the least urgent things last . And I can't tell the member whether the shoulders on No . 9 Highway are their No. 1 priority in the Selk irk or their No . 25 priority . But they will be repaired this summer . MR . MALI NOWSKI : qu estion . They will be repaired . Okay , thank you . MR . CHAIRMAN: 4. (a)- -pass • • The Member for Point Douglas. A further MR . MALINOW SKI : One moment . On the same highway, Mr . Chairman, I notice we have two very sharp turns . Is the Minister also thinking to maybe straighten this kind of a thing? - 1245 -

MR . ORCHARD: straighten that, no. Thursday , 20 March , 1980 Well , Mr. Chairman, there 's no plans in the works to MR . MAL INOWSKI : There 's no plans? MR . ORCHA RD: No . MR. MALINOWSKI : Is the Minister aware that quite a few accidents happen almost every year on these two sharp turns? MR . ORCHAR D: I'm not aware of an above- normal accident ratio there for the highway being a highly travelled highway, etc., etc . , and a lot of commuter traf­ fic .

Certainly there may wel l be accidents there , but I can't see that the inci­ dence of accidents there is higher or lower , which is the inference the member is making by saying we should straighten out the curves. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4. ( a)- -p ass ; 4. (b) (l) . The Member for Ste. Rose . MR. ADAM : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. There is an increase in staffin g from 13 8; there are 16 vacancies at the present time , and the complement of staff will be increased by 5 to bring it up to 243 .

We would ask the Minister to explain the reason for the extra staffing ; also we would li ke clarif ication on the figures for last year of $425 ,7 00 and the deficit of $176 ,000 on the right hand side ; and also if all last year 's appropriation has been expended . Under the Mechanical Division there is an increase of $100 ,000 .0 0. I presume that that would be for the extra staffing . There 's not quite $100 ,000 on Other Expend itures. Roughly , there is a million -dollar increase on all those items . MR . ORCHAR D: Mr. Chairman, I will deal with them in order if I may . First of all with the staff ing.

We are in fact adding 5 SMYs to the Mechanical Divis­ ion. Those 5 SMYs are as a result of the integration of the equ ipment and stores operation from the transportation services division of Northern Affairs and Trans­ portation Service s. We transferred a total of 14 SMYs from equ ipment and store s to the Mechanical Division. We required only 5 of them, and we have declared re­ dundant 9 positions ; so we eli minated 9 SMYs . So the $120 ,000 is as a result of the increase of 5 personnel plus , you know, the regular salary increases. Okay, does that answer the member 's quest ions on salaries? MR .

ADAM: Yes, okay, on the staffin g - SMYs . Yes, that's fine . MR . CHAIRM AN: 4. (b) (l )-- pass. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR . ADAM: No , that answers the question on the SMYs. It doesn 't answer the quest ion on the figure s, the $425 ,000, whether that's been all expended . And perhaps he could give us a clarification of the figures on the right-hand side which is $1 76 ,000 in brackets . MR . ORCHARD: Well , the $425 ,000 number one is expen ded ; the expl anation on the $1 76, 000 on the right-hand side this ye ar.

You see , Mechanical Division charges out or tries to end up at the end of the year as close to zero as it can, because the mechanical division's dut ies are to provide the equipment and the equi pment maintenance as required by primarily the maintenance program. And in order to recover and to properly cost the maintenance that is ongoing, the drag­ ging, the snow ploughing, the snow blowing, the seal coating , the patching, etc. , etc. , all the equipment is charged out, bases a set rental , which reflects the cost of the equipment plus the cost of maintenance.

So all of the mechanical division 's expenditures are charged out as closely as possible to the user ap­ propriations , the user appropriations primarily being the maintenance program. Now, what we have been doing up until this year is, when we establish the salaries and wage category , in other words, (b )( l), for the Mechanical Divis ion, we have been antic ipating what we think is going to be the increase in wages - okay? - for the fiscal year. Am I making myself clear? Because this is a rela- - 1246 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 tively compl icated reason why we 've gone from a plus to a minus figure here . So in order to charge out all our equipment costs as they accrue to the Mechanical Division in previous years, we were guesst imating rather than putting in a fig­ ure . And I only pick figures for the sake of clarificati on.

Instead of adding in a 2 perc ent rise in wages when we thought in fact it was going to be 7, in this Mechanical Division, salaries and wages, we would add in a ful l 7 percent increase so that when we get down to line 5, Recoverable from Other Approp riations , our recoveries would re flect what we in fact would have ended up paying for wages in that year; our true wage cost , so that we don't have a distorted maintenance cost , for instance , coming back bec.ause we didn't charge enough wages through the Me­ chanical Division.

Now what has happened is, the Department of Finance has said in the course of budgeting, you should not do that, you should treat this salary appropriation the same as you do all the others; you make a sl ight allowance and that 's all, not an all owance for the full thing you anticipate . So as a result , in salaries, we have pre-g uessed what the salary increase is going to be , the same as we have in other appropriations . But in order that our charge-ou t picks up the real salary increase , we have left it at the charge-ou t as if we were in fact using that 7 percent salary increase .

So that in past years we 've ended up with a slig ht figure , a plus figure , in Mechanical Division, where­ as this year our charge-out is going to leave us with a negative figure . And it 's just strictly a case of Finance wanting us to have a consistent method of salary throughout all our appropriations. MR . ADAM: Well , then, that clears the point - the $425 , 700 is actually salary increase s. Is that it? MR . ORCHARD: Well , what else is there? MR . ADAM : Well , I'm wondering why that figure is there in the first pla ce , because we have a breakdown of salaries, wages, other equipment . MR .

ORCHAR D: Well, that's the salaries and wages of the mechanics and the shop personnel that maintain our fleet of government equi pment . We have to pay those people . MR . ADAM: But it doesn 't show that here. MR . ORCHA RD: Well , certainly it does. MR. ADAM: It doesn 't say salaries. The salaries are further down. MR . ORCHA RD: (b) (1) shows salaries. MR. ADAM : Well , what is the $425 ,7 00 figure there? MR . ORCHA RD: You see , Mr .

Chairman, last year , under the total appropriation for Mechanical Divis ion, we had expenditures of $1 1, 667 , 700, part of which was Salaries and Wages, part of which was Other Expend itures, part of which was Equip­ ment and Tools, part of which was Highway Build ings and Storage Yards. Last year, last fiscal year , we anticipated charging back $ll ,242,0 00, which would leave us with an expenditure of $425 ,000 last year.

This year , we are anticipating those four items to cost us $1 2, 624 , OOO, of which we are going to charge back to the user appropriations of the equipment within the Mechanical Division, $12 ,8 00,0 00 , which results in an over-recov ery , shall we say. Now, as I explained , the reason why it is $425 ,000 expenditure last year, $176 ,000 credit this year, is because of the different method that Finance re­ quired us to enter our Salaries and Wages this year as compared to las t year. MR . ADAM: Okay. We can move on to the next. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4.( b) (l )- -pass . The Member for Rossmere . - 1247 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . VIC SCH ROEDER : On the Salaries and Wages, I'm jus t wondering , I don't have the figures that the other member has, how many employees are there in the Mechanical Division? MR . ORCHARD: 243 . MR . SCHROEDER : Is there any way of determining exactly where these people are throughout the province? MR . ORCHARD: These are personnel who are at the garages , the government garages, at Winnipeg , Brandon, Dauphin , The Pa s, Thompson and Beausej our . That 's where all that staff is. MR .

SCHROEDER : The garage at Beausej our , I've been in there on occasion at the Motor Vehicl es Branch • • • MR . CHAIRMAN: I just wonder if the Committee would just speak closer into the mikes. I can 't really hear what is being said. MR . SCHROEDER : Fine . The garage in Beausejour is one which I am somewhat familiar with , at least the building . The Motor Vehicles Branch has licence sus­ pension hearings there occasional ly , and the bui ld ing seems to be awfully empty . I'm just wondering whether the department has any plans for that building? MR .

ORCHARD: There is the required level of activity going on in that garage. If it see ms rather empty , maybe the honourable member ended up there at coffee break time or something . MR . SCHROEDER : I'm not suggest ing that there is nobody in the place; there are huge areas, as I re call, probably as big as this room, where there is no fur­ niture . I would assume that these people don 't take that with them when they go for coffee . MR . ORCHA RD: Apparently - the Deputy indicates that those build ings were built to acc ommodate, in some areas, the district office .

And they bu ilt , in terms of de sign , they made every garage, with the exce ption, of course , of Winni­ peg, along the same li ne . Some of them have occupied that space with a distr ict offi ce, but in Beause jour's case , they had an adequate district office exist ing and rather than, I suppose , draw up a special building, they went with the stand­ ard design in the advent of using it at some future date . MR .

SCHROE DER : Along those lines, then, and just referring back to my question of yesterday in which I had indicated - and the Minister indicated as well - that there was a grader which had some problems , and it was under repair at Rennie under the Parks Branch , I was just wondering whether that kind of repair work will now be moved to one of the other branches, now that Highways is in charge? MR . ORCHA RD: Well , you see , that piece of equipment that broke down was not Mechanical Division 1 s equipment or Department of Highway •s equipment . We maintain our own equipment in those shops . MR .

SCHROEDER : When you acquired the respons ibil ity for the roads in places like the Whiteshe ll , did you , along with that , acquire the right to inherit this equipment from the Parks Branch? I recognize that it 's not the Department of Highways equipment at this point , but when you were given the responsibil ity to maintain those highways , was there no agreement that you would also then obtain the equipment that the other branch which was giving this respons ibil ity to you • MR .

ORCHARD: In the speci fic instance that the Member for Rossmere is re­ ferring to, that piece of equ ipment was nonrepairable and we had no interest in it ; the department had no interest in it . - 1248 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . SCHROEDER : from the Parks Br anch? Did the Highways Department then obtain other equi pment MR . ORCHARD: Not in the interim. In the interim, we had to hire a con­ tractor to do that particular cle aring work for us. MR . SCHROEDER : Yes, I'm aware of that , with respect to that

part icular instance , but I was assuming that there was a transfer of responsibil ity of all highway maintenance from the . Parks Branch to the Highways Branch throughout the province , and I therefore assumed that there must have been other equ ipment in­ volv ed , and I was wondering whether the Highways Department had taken over that other equipment from other areas? I may have misunderstood the Minister yester­ day. MR . ORCHARD: No , there was a transfer of maintenance respons ibility in that particular instance. MR .

SCHROEDER : There fore, what you are saying is that there are still cer­ tain areas where the Parks Branch actually does the maintaining of the roads, and this was just a natter of administrative convenience? MR . ORCHA RD: That's correct. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Member for Ste. Rose . MR . ADAM : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would li ke to ask the Minister if he could give us some information on the fle et , which I think comes under this item, how many • MR . ORCHARD: The flee t? MR . ADAM : The fleet , that is what it says he re . We have a fleet of vehicl es, Mr. Chairman.

I would li ke to know how many vehicles we have at the present time. MR . ORCHARD: maintenance fleet? Mr. Chairman, is what the member referring to the road many • MR. ADAM : Yes. It all comes under the garage • MR . ORCHA RD: You want me to tell you how many road graders we have, how MR . ADAM : No , motor vehic le s, cars. MR . ORCH AR D: We don •t have any motor vehicl es. That is under Government Services. MR . ADAM : Oh, I see . The fleet is equipment? MR . ORCHA RD: Yes. MR. ADAM: So if we want to talk about the automobile fle et, that would be under the Minister of Government Service s.

Okay, I'll maybe ask a question on the next item. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR . DOER N: Mr. Chairman, there is really only one question I'm interested in here , and that is a matter that I have raised previous ly . It concerns , I guess, the department 's graders when they travel on the highway. I assume that most of the graders that do go along the highway at any time are government , - 124 9 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 al though there may be some private vehicle s, or municipal , and I don • t !mow whether there are standard lig hting syst ems on these vehicl es , bu t I want to tell you - that I had an experience abou t 15 years ago which was enough to cause a religious con- version, and that is ••• MR . ORCHARD: The question is, did it? MR . DOERN: No , I remained a New Democrat in spite of that experienc e. MR. ORCHARD: It 's a sha me . MR . DOERN: And that is, the lights.

There 's a problem with the front part of the grader , I don 't !mow what you call it , the plow portion, namely that you can't put lights on there very easily , and yet when you have the lights up on the cab, if a person is driving along , I belie ve there is an ill usion created , namely that, depending on where you 're driving, you are used to see ing those li ghts a couple of feet off the ground . If you see a grader in the distance coming and the lights are high up, it creates the illusion of a different distance.

You get a different visual percep tion, and I'm te lling you that that can be dangerous under certain circumstanc es , and on one

part icular occasion, it was to me . I'm just wondering, first of all , whether there are standard - li ke some of them seem to have certain types of lights, some seems to having flashing , swivellin g lights, etc., etc . I would like to ask you first of all whether in terms of their normal li ghts and/or flashing lig hts or emergency , whatever you want to call them , to alert an ordinary vehicle driver , that this is some different type of thing other than a car or truck coming, are there standard requirements? MR .

ORCHARD : Well , now, first off, our fleet of maintainers that are at­ tached with snowplows have the flashing bl ue dome li ght , which would show above and beyond your headlights and would stop most drivers from that illusion of the height being a distance back. I can't answer for mun icip al equ ipment , which this may well have been. Those blue flashin g lights, it is my understanding they have to be on whenever the snowplow is on a PR or PT H, to warn both front and back traffic . I don 't !mow whether there are legal standards by which municipal equip­ ment has to comply to.

I don 't bel ieve there is, but by and large , most municipal equi pment has the flashing light system, as does ours. MR . DOERN: Mr. Chairman, then I'm going to suggest to the Minister that he should ex plore this area. I believe that this should be standardized . From my experience , I have the impression that there are dif ferent kinds of lights and different colours and different settings and so on and so on.

I think th at , first of all , there should be a standard system and also , when some of these graders aren 't working, like in the sense of when they are going from one point to another as opposed to pl owing when they would be going at a much sl ower speed and presum­ ably off to the side , I think that you might also explore some system of even hav­ ing some sort of attaching to the blade that would be at the normal level.

Be­ cause I'm tel lin g you that I be lieve that the present system that has been used for at least 15 or 20 yea rs, from my experience , presents a safety hazard because of a visual differen ce, namely a driver looks at vehicle s at ground level and all of a sudden there is a pair of lig hts 10, 12 feet in the air, coming along, which certainly creates a different impression. I be lieve it is a safety hazard . MR . CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I fully appreciate the Member for Elmwood 's concern in this regard and there is only one way , I be lieve , that is practical to mark this type of vehicle on the highway, and that is with cab-mounted flashing signals, because any light or any attachment that you put on the blade system , either the pl ow or the grader blade, just plain isn't going to be there at the end of the day. It 's going to get !mocked off and destroyed and it is physically im­ possible to keep it on.

If we were to develop a safety syst em which inherently relied on the presence of lights on the plows or the blade s, I am afraid we would within a few short hours have no marking on them

whereas always, with the dome lig ht , unless the dome lig ht itsel f fails , you do have some marking. Even if you - 1250 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 don't lmock a light off on the plow, you can pack it full of snow and it won 't be visibl e, and that would give you that old false sense of security . It 's just an impractical place to put a light and I think that this is something that has been checked into by the safety associations across North America and it is pretty standard to have cab- mounted safety lights. MR . DOERN: I'm just saying, Mr . Chairman, that, you know, you can't be too careful in this regard .

I think that there are emergency vehicles that travel around the City of Winnipeg, as an example , tow trucks and so on, when they come down, I think everybody just . notices them because of these flashin g lights. You know, your instance reaction is, "There 's an emergency vehicle ." You don 't know what it is. You might think it 's an ambulance and it might be jus t a tow truck - maybe it 's excessi ve . I say that in my impression of provincial graders and prob­ ably municipal grad ers , is that the lights are not noticeable enough, or at least in particular instance s.

So I'm saying that first of all they should be quit e prominent , namely when this type of a vehicle is on the highways ; se condly , they should be standardized ; and , you know, finally , again I'm saying al though I under­ stand that you can't have lights on the blade when they are working, when they are zooming down the highway, if you don •t have a good enough system, it mi ght be neces sary to have something on the blade at ground leve l. I'm sure I coul d take the Minister out, as an ill ust ration, and show him some of these vehicles coming down the highways .

I think that they are a hazard, because of either inadequate li ghting or unstandardized li ghting or the proble m of the lig hts being up there in the air. So I would ask him to look into this matter . I wou ld be happy to meet with him and discuss it with his staff because I have had a very strong view about this matter for a long time and I don't see any changes or improvements in the matter . MR . CHAIRMAN: 'lbe Member for Portage la Prairie. MR . HYDE: Mr. Chairman, my question is to the Minister , if I may.

First of all , I appreciate the announcement where he is going to be upgrading 2.5 miles of road between 22nd Street West and the junction of Highway Number 1. This is cer tainly going to be an improvement to a very se rious situation that we had on our hands with the new mall coming into being . I appreciate this and so do the people of Portage la Prairie . But to make ••• MR . CHAIRMAN: Maybe if I coul d just draw the member 's attention that we are on (b) (l ), Mechanical Division . Probably those remarks can foll ow, we 'll MR . HYDE: Mr .

Chairman, my question was going to be asking you as when, because I had planned on asking the Minister on Planning and Design, of a project to the Portage area, and I was out of the city yesterday and I wasn 't able to be in attendance . Now, I am asking, when I can bring that up again? MR . CHAIRMAN: Under the Minister 's Salary , but we have passed it really , to the member , but we could bring it all in the Minister 's Salary in compensation. MR . HYDE: Thank you . MR . CHAIRMAN: Okay. (b) (l ). The Member for Ste . Ro se. MR . ADAM: I just have one further question under this item .

I am wanting to know whether , do we lease any equi pment , or is it all purchased outright? Do we have any leasing agreements for leasing of machines? MR . ORCHARD : The majority of the equipment is owned , but there is the odd item that will be under a leas e. MR . ADwM: what kind of equi pment are we talking about , big or larger machines, or what? MR . ORCHARD: Well , say , wobbly-wheel packers , maybe on a lease purchase rather than an outright purchase . - 1251 -

Thursday , 20 March, 19 80 MR . ADAM : It would be just a very few of these machines ; there wouldn 't be very many . MR . ORCHA RD: That's right . MR . CHAIRMAN: (b) (l )- -pass ; (b) (2)- -pass . The Member for Ste . Rose. MR . ADAM: What does this consist of ? It 's quite a large figure here , this $8 milli on. MR . ORCHARD : Well , Mr. Chairman, this is the repair parts , fuels , lubrica­ tion material s, for the department's equipment . Rose. MR . ADAM : Okay. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4. (b) (2)- -pass ; 4( b} (3 }- -pass ; 4(b) (4 ). The Member for Ste . MR . ADAM: Could the Minister explain there the increase? MR .

ORCHAR D: Yes. We are putt ing in sewer , water , and washrooms , into our storage buildi ngs at Carberry , West Hawk, Peter sfi el d, Pine River , Gimli and Fisher Branch . MR . CHAIRMAN : 4. (b) (4 )- -pass ; 4. (b) (5)- -pass . The Member for St . Vital . MR . WALDING: Just one quest ion, Mr. Chairman. I would li ke to ask the Minister why he is recover ing more from Other Operations than he is going to spen d . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman, I did deal with that in depth with the Member for Ste. Rose. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4. (b) (5 )- -pass . The Member for Ste. Rose . MR . ADAM: I want to talk about the warehouse.

Are we there yet? MR. CHAIRMAN: No . 4.( b} (5 )- -pass ; 4. (c)( l) . MR . ADAM: Yes. Could the Minister explain now? We 're increasing four SMYs from there 's one vacancy, which will be fill ed , and we ' re going to increase it ••• no, that 's not right . MR . ORCHA RD: Mr . Chairman , if I might?. Last year we funded 19 SMYs in this appropriation and between last year and this year we are reducing one SMY down to where ••• we 're lett ing one SMY go, so the increase in fund ing reflects a reducti on of about $1 5, 000 from the drop of one SMY fund ing. MR .

ADAM : Did the Minister say that we funded 19 last year? It only shows 14 here . MR . ORCHARD: Well , yes, it shows 14 here . But then, in the Equi pment and Stores appropriation, if you foll ow us under Transportation Service s, 5 of those 19 were in the stores end of transportation services and funded under the appro­ priation of Warehouse Stores last year . MR . ADAM: I see , so the 4 SMYs that are coming into the department would • and there is no increase in salaries, real ly . MR . ORCHARD : Oh yes there is.

There is an allowance for an increase, but bear in mind that last year we funded 19 ; this year we 're only fund ing 18, so that the increase reflects the increase less the reduction of one SMY. So that's why the increse is only about $3 ,500 .00. - 1252 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 MR . CHAIRM AN : 4. (c )( l )- -pass ; 4( c) (2) --pass . The Member for Ste. Rose. MR . ADAM : Mr. Chairman, could the Minister explain what is happening here? MR . ORCHA RD: Well , Mr. Chairman, you'll recall the Member for St. Vital was asking what was happening in overall in computer service s. And I mentioned to him, in computer servic es , that we had an allowance for develo pment of the new warehouse store system . And of the $709 ,000 of total expend itures, the majority of the $61, 000 increase in this appropriation this year is for the design of that warehouse store syste m .

That's part of the computer funding ; that's the reason for the increase here . MR . ADAM: Does that show up in other areas as wel l? MR . ORCHA RD: Yes, Mr. Chairman. There are a number of ot her items that use computer services , but in terms of a major increase , this is the only one that has anythin g above a normal increase for salaries or cost of suppl ies, st rictly related to the computer services . Bu t, as I mentioned to the Member for St .

Vital last week, or on Monday, or whenever we were around to it, that there was a major increase in the computer services caused by the design of a new warehouse store syste m , and this is where this $6 1, 000 by and large fits in . MR . CHAIRMAN: 4.( c) (2)- -pass ; 4.( c) (3)- -pass . The Member for Ste. Rose . MR . ADAM : Mr. Chairman, that is the same figure as last year . What is that ; culverts and other suppl ie s that we need? MR . ORCHARD: It 's not culver ts ; it 's parts, traffic paint ; those kind of supplies that we need within the maintenance approp riation. MR .

CHAIRMAN: 4. (c) (3)-- pass; 4. (c) (4)- -pass ; 4. (d) (1 )- -p ass . The Member for Ste . Rose. MR . ADAM : Mr. Chairman, could the Minister tel l us now, we 're going up $200, OOO I bel ieve , what is happening here? How many airports do we have? Are they still all under ope ration, and are they func tioning wel l? Are they supplying all the northern remote communities the way they should be? MR . ORCHA RD: Well , Mr.

Chairman, the major reason for the increase in here this year is that we 've got adequate liabil ity insu rance coverage at all the air­ ports now and we have instituted , well, we 're providing for an effective fire and crash rescue operation at all the staff ed airports. And that's the main reason for the increase in funding this year - increase in liability insurance over last year and provision of fire and crash rescue operations. MR . ADAM : And one extra SMY? MR . ORCHA RD : Mr. Chairman, the SMYs are the same. MR . ADAM: There 's 84 SMYs . Okay . The aircraft themselves don't come under this.

We have nothing to do with that . MR . ORCHARD: No . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows . MR . BEN HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Under this appropriation for Air­ ports and Roads, is there any provision for any upgrading of landing facili ties? MR . ORCHARD: operating expense s. appropriation. Mr. Chairman, all this is, is the operation staff and the The upgrading comes under the capital acquisition in a later - 1253 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR . HANUSCH AK : Under where? MR . ORCHARD: Appropriation No . 8 has any capital reconstruction or capital expend iture that we 're going to have in our airports. MR . HA NUSCHAK: I see . MR . CHAIRMAN: 4. (d) (l )- -pass ; 4. (d) (2 )- -pass ; 4. (e )( 1 )- -pass . The Member for Ste. Rose. MR . ADAM: Could the Minister tel l us what 's happening in regard to ferri es and ••• ? MR . ORCHARD: It 's a very interest ing subject , Mr. Chairman. We are in­ creasing our SMYs by one in here .

We transferred one of the administration per­ sonnel from Transportation Services into the Marine Division. The ferry opera­ tions are running quite well . We have got an actual decr ease in Other Expend i­ tures this year because we have real ized some fairly substantial economies because of improved scheduling of the ves sels and improved security and the use of scheduled air transportation for the ferry operators rather than charter air­ craft . And we have been able to realize some fairly reasonable cost savings as the member can see . This Marine service is operating quite well. MR .

ADAM: How many ferries do we have in operation there? MR . ORCHARD: Six, Mr. Chairman. MR . ADAM : Six . They 're all on Lake Winnipeg , or where are they? MR. ORCHARD: No . There 's two on Lake Winnipeg actually , and four in vari­ ous locations in northern Manitoba . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows . MR . HANU SCHAK: Is there not a ferry on the Assiniboine River? MR. ORCHARD: Yes. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4. (e) (l )- -pass . The Member for Ste . Rose . MR . ADAM: Mr. Chairman, there was a quest ion of a br idge at Berens River .

I am wondering, have there been studies made as to whether or not. a ferry woul d work there? MR . ORCHARD : Not that I know of, Mr. Chairman. No , I don't believe so . MR . CHAIRMAN: 4.( e) (l )- -pas s; 4. (e) (2 )-- pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exce eding $37 ,8 24 ,800 for Highways and Transport­ ation, Maintenance, Highways and Airports--pass . Resolu tion 84 , 5.( a). The Member for Burrows . MR . HANU SCHAK : Yes, I note , Mr.

Chairman, that this appropriation provides ass istance to urban and rural areas in the develo pment and maintenance of local transportation needs, incl uding roadwork in unorganized territ ory . Could the Minister indicate of what portion, if any, of the $3 ,020, 000 appropriation is for road construct ion in unorganized territory? MR . ORCHA RD: Well , the majority of it will be road construction in un­ organized territory, and then let me explain for the Member for Burrows .

This is an appropriation of general funding and what we do is, as the year progres ses, starting roughly now, the various councils of the unorganized distric ts, the local government district s, will make application to the department for work on a given - 1254 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 main market road on an LGD or for a specific project within local government dis­ tricts. And we will fund those as request ed . MR . HA NUSCHAK: So this is for roads in unorganized territory , other than PRs or provincial trunk highways that may go through it? MR . ORCHARD: Yes, that's corre ct . MR . CHA IRMAN: 5. ( a)- -p ass ; 5.( b )- -p ass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $6 ,0 20, 000 for Highways and Transportation - Assistance Programs--pa ss. Resolution 85, 6. (a)- -pass - the Member for Burrows . MR . HANUSCH AK: Mr.

Chairman , related to this item, the Minister had tabled a document , The Highway Construction Program, which consists of two parts , the projects previously programmed, being continued , complet ed ; and projects scheduled for 1980 -81. Now, I'm finding it a bit difficult reading the first part , the Pro­ jects Previous Programmed , because they are described in exactly the same manner as they were descri bed in the previous year's Highway Construction Program. So the question that brings to my mind , Mr.

Chairman, is I think it would assist the committee if it were able to know to what extent were the projects previously pro­ grammed completed . If I may use an example , you know, looking at the first item , the Trans Canada Highway East , mileage 2.2 mil es; location, west of Perimeter Highway, Ple ssis Road to the Ples sis Road connec tion; nature of work, acquisition of right-o f-w ay . -- (Interje ction)- - Yes, I am reading that from the 1979-80 pro­ jec ts. Then I note that in '80-'81, it is described there in exactly the same fashion. Now, you see , that raises many questions in the committee 's mind , Mr.

Chairman, because I think the committee would like to know whether any of this land had been acquired , or some of it , and what is remaining to be acquired , because I think it would make qu ite a difference if there was none acquired or if, let 's say, 2.1 miles were acquired and there is only a tenth of a mile left to be acquired this year .

Then, of course , that would lead us to other questio ns , because if most of this was previously done , and if the Minister is asking for funds once again for the same programs, then it would have the appearance , you know, of double funding for the same construction projec t . So, as a starter , perhaps when the commit tee next sits, if the Minister coul d at least give us two figure s, and I 'm sure that he has them because somehow he had arrived at the figure in his apoproporiation, his Esti mates here , if he could give us one figure showing the total estimated costs of projects

schedule d for 198 0- 81, and the total est imated costs for the uncompleted portion of projects previously programmed. MR . ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman, first of all, the only reason why last year's program is attached is as a matter of intereest. MR . HA NUSCHAK: Is the Minister then suggest ing that there are no funds inc luded in this year 's Estimates for the completion of the projects previously programmed , or how is the Minister going to pay for them? MR . ORCHA RD: Mr . Chairman, the Member for Burrows was attempting to - I beli eve he asked a question as to whether I am trying to get money twice.

Well , no, that's not the case , Mr. Chairman. The program, as has been past patterned , the previous year 1 s program is appended to the current year's program to give you an idea of two years of proje cts, and nothing more is intended. MR . HANU SCHAK: Well , have those ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4: 30 having arrived , I am leaving the Chair for Private Member 's Hour and will return at 8:0 0 p. m. - 1255 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE MR . CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson ): This co mmitte e will come to order . I would direct the honourable members to Page 16 of the Main Estimates, Department of Civil Service . Item under discussion is 1. Civil Service Commission under Resolution No . 25 , Item (

a) Salaries--p ass. The Honourable Minister. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson) : Just one thing , Mr. Chairman. I had estab­ lished a routine here before with the members opposite of how I introduce the Es­ timates. I had given the opening remarks; the Honourable Member for Logan had started when we cl osed last night . If he wishes to finish what he was saying and itemizing his quest ions , that 's fine , or if he would like to revert back to the procedure I was fol lowing before where I outline people and where they are, if he wants me to do that I'll leave it up to him. I'm easy to get along with , as usual . MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR . WILL IAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I can assure the Mini­ ster that I' 11 try and be just as easy to get along with as he . The Minister has a table on Page 4, with various boxes . If the Minister is dealing with that and he can give us the staff in the various boxes, and their classificatio ns, then I will allow the Minister to carry on at this time . MR . MacMASTER : Okay, a couple of things , before we enter Classif ications. The Member for Logan yeste rday said - he made two or three points , but I'm sure he ' 11 reiterate most of them .

One that he did say was that he had understood me to say I was pleased with the way negotiations were going this year . That wasn't quite correct , Mr . Chairman. I said I was pleased with how negotiations went last year . And the member made reference to something that the president of the MGEA had said on the radio, about they 're having some diffic ulti es or whatever. I just don't make comments on negotiations that are in the midst of negotiating, as I think he knows. So , I was referring to last year , the succe ssf ul conclusions last year.

Okay, if the member would look in his Civil Service Commission 1979 report , und er the Civil Service Commission, directly underneath the "Minister", there are two -- (Interj ection) -- Page 4, the chart . Under Staff Relations Division on the right , there are 3; under Personnel Service s Division, 4.

And then we start at the bottom row of boxes on the left hand side , and I'll jus t run acr oss : 3 in the first one , Employee Health Counsel ling ; 18 , Cl assif ication; 7 .5, Staff Deve lop­ ment ; 10, Personnel Records; 2, Secretary of Civil Service; 3, Compensation Ser­ vice s; 1, Pension and Group Insurance; 5, Negotiations and Grievance, and they cover off the last two on the rig ht hand side. And down in the bottom, Spec ial Programs, 1.5. And you must add to that: 2, Personnel Trainees, that will be as­ signed to projec ts throughout the entire department .

The total staff this year is 62 ; last year it was 62. I think that is al l I have on the first item . Memb ers opposite can now ask any questions they wish. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Just to carry on with the remarks that I was making yest erday, and I apologize if I misunderst ood the Minister. He explai ned today that he was talking abou t last year's negotiations .

However , I do think that I should draw to the Minist er's attention that besides yest erday's news release on the radio, there is an item in today's Free Press - I don't know if he is aware of it - headed , "MGEA Riled by Proposal ." It deals with the statement of the presiden t , the MGEA presiden t , Gary Doer , and he charged yeste rday that "the government proposal to exclude supervi sors from the bargaining units had disrupted negotiations for a new contract for 12 ,000 provincial civil servants.

The exist­ ing agreement - covering employees of hospitals, jails , community colleg es, among others - expires Saturday." I be lieve the Minister said that yesterday. Mr. Doer goes on to state that: "We had been progressing fairly well . This will de finite­ ly delay things . Doer said he had no precise figure on the number of civil - 1256 -

Thursday , 20 Mar ch , 1980 servants , primarily low-level supervisors, who would be affected ." I want to ask the Minister if this is a new policy that the government has de­ cided upon, to now exclude from the bargaining unit of former years , low -level supervis ory staff, and when did this policy come into eff ect? MR . MacMASTER : Mr. Chairman, I thought I made it reasonably clear when I made my comments to the member that this Minister of Labour does not discuss nego­ tiations in this particular Chamber. --( Interj ection )- - That's right ; somebody said they 're ongoing and that's correct .

We can philosophize after the situation, be it , a successful one or i.msuccessful , and the opposition, well, they are at libe rty to ask questions any time they want ; there 's no question about that in my mind . But during the mids t of negotiations , you sometimes hear things , you some­ times read things , and occasionally you see things happen that cause questions such as the member opposite has raised , but I have always taken that position.

In fact , years ago when I was with the union, our local union was very adamant - our position was that we would not negotiate ourselv es, from that side , in the news­ paper . We dealt with our membership in our own way , and we dealt with negotia­ tions in our own way. I've carried that through my life , and I think it is a good position, it is a practical position. It's one I have li ved and I understand and I appreciate , so I have no intention of commenting on the member 's suggestion, allegations that something may be new.

There is posturing that takes place during negotiations ; there 's positions handed back and forth . The member knows that as well as I do , and I'm just not prepared to get into any debate over newspaper

article s. If he came in tomorrow with a union leafl et , I wouldn 't talk about that . If he found an internal memo some place and said, 11My goodness , this looks li ke you're doing •• "I just wouldn 't debate negotiations , while they are on­ going, in this House. MR . JENKINS: Well , the Minister can have his opinions. I think that they are fairly val id , but from what --( Interjectio ns)-- Well , maybe the Minister for Government Services is quite correct in saying that the Minister has taken the easy way out - I'll make sure that it is on the record .

But nevert hele ss, there has been something, evidently , that has been introduced , new into negotiations that hasn't been there in the past . If the Minister doesn 't wish to discuss it , well, I can't force him to disc uss it and I'm not going to even try to force him to discuss it . But I do think , by his reluctance to state a government polic y , that it certainly is fairly obvious that this is something new.

It must be gov­ ernment policy , because otherwise the people who are negot iating on behalf of the government - and I don't know whether the Minister is directly involved in those negotiations - but the people who do the negotiating on behalf of government must have got instructions from someone ; they just didn 't pluck this out of thin air. As the Minister says, ye s, I know how negotiations are carried out , and I don 't think that they should be carried out in public .

But when I think that there is a problem here , if there is a dif ference in what the collect ive bargaining unit will be and the government is attempting to remove from that bargaining unit some of the people that were previously covered , then I think it is incumbent upon, if not the Minister of Labour , then I think it is incumbent upon the First Minister to state that ce rtain people within the lower supervis ory category, it is the govern­ ment 's policy that these people will be considered to be of a supevi sory capacity not covered under the agreement.

I don 't thik that the people who are doing the negotiating for the government have taken this on their own heads to do because if they had, then I would say that the Minister would ce rtainly want to be talking to those people , because if they are taking liberties that have not been set forth as government policy • • • That 's all I asked the Minister . I don't want to get mixed up in the internal negotiations. All I asked the Minister was if this was government polic y .

They may have a very valid reason for removing these people from the collecti ve bar­ gaining unit , but as the Minister has stated , he doesn 't wish to discuss that , well then that 's fine . We know where we stand and we can all draw our own con­ cl usions. And I think I have made mine fairly clear jus t where my conclusions have been drawn . I would like to now deal with the report itself. I asked the Minister when he gave us the box tables here if he wo uld - he has given us the staff man years. - 1257 -

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 He said it was 62. And if we look at Page 24 of the Annual Report , he stated that that figure was approximately the same figure that we had last year . Last year we had� I think he said 61; this year we have 62. Those figures compare favorably . But the Minister didn 't give us the cl assif ications of the people . What are the job classificat ions of the numbers in the box , of the 62, I be lieve that the Min­ iste r said, includin g the two personnel trainees? Could he give us the cl assif i­ cations of these people?

Either he can give them to me here, or I'll get them as we go down through the report . MR . MacMASTER : I' 11 establish a one-sheet - X number of directors , X number of secretar ial , X number of research , X number of programmers - I'll have that sheet es tabl ished and forward it . I'll table it , and we got it . MR . JENKINS: I thank the Minister for the co- operative effor t. Now, I'd li ke to deal with Page 7 of the Civil Service Report , the Manitoba Civil Service Commission, and we have liste d five people . Evidentl y , the Civil Service Commis­ sion had 17 meetings .

Could the Minister give us the attendance of each member for the 17 meetings - how many meetings they attended? I notice that two of the member s - Mr . P.I. Hart and Miss S. Bradshaw - are members of the Civil Service Commission and are also civil se rvants . Are they, in excess of their ci vil se r­ vice pay, paid as members of the Civil Service Commission, or are they just there on the commission and as non-paid members of the commission? If the Minister could give me that information, I would appreciate that very much . MR . MacMASTER : Miss Bradshaw and Mr.

Hart do not get paid for time spent on the Civil Service Commission, and I' 11 get a breakdown of the 17 meet ings and the number of people that were at them. MR . JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that. I want to now raise the issue of the - in the introduction - and I note the resignation of Mr. D.A. Duncan as a member and Mr. Brown, who retired from the pos ition. Now, I know we had quite a cons iderabl e discussion last year on Mr. Duncan and , what I want to know from the Minister is the followin g : Since Mr.

Duncan resigned - and I guess it wasn 't a happy resignation - and there were ce rtain legal fees involved from the de part­ ment , could the Minister give us the cost of the legal fees for the final settle­ ment with Mr. Duncan? I don 't want the sett lement terms , but jus t the legal fees, the costs that it cost the Com mission or the government in order to make a set­ tl ement in the case of Mr. Duncan. If the Minister doesn 't have that readily av­ ailable , I wonder if he would take that as notice and see if he can have that bro­ ught back to us . MR . MacMASTER : Yes. MR .

JENKINS: Now, the Civil Service Commission itsel f, the meetings - and I only throw this out to the Minister as a sugge stion , because he jus t gives us the meetings last year in 1979 , and I throw this out as a suggestion for next year if we are stil l here as the government next year or the members opposite are here as a government - that you do, in other cases, show the previous year, how many meeti ngs were held , and it would be of interest to the members to be able to co m­ pare the number of Civil Service meetings we had last year, the year previous, and if the Minister doesn 't want to go any further than that , I see that's basically what he has in others.

Some , he goes back to '76, but if he could give us two or three years, so we could have some comparison, because all we know from the report here and - I could dig it out , but I don't think I want to go and start digging for last year 's Civil Service Report . We have Civi l Service meet ings here - the year 1979 , 17 . How did they compare with meetings that we had last year, and say in 178, and in •77. Appeal s rece ived - we only have last year. Are the appeals up or down? We have no way of comparing it on this side of the Hous e.

I'm not saying this to be criti cal just for the sake of being critical , but I think the Minister would agree that it would be easier for we , here in opposition, to be able to go through this, because we have no comparable data for the previous year . If the Minister could assure me that he could get this information to us, then I would be appreciative - 1258 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 of that , too. Now, I'll just sit down and maybe the Minister can give us that infonnation right away, I don 't know. MR . MacMASTER : I confer with the member right now, a copy of last year's report - the Act requires that we issue the findings of that particular year . One point I'd like to make is that, as Minister , I have faith in the negotiators that are, in fact, at the table with the MGEA at the particular moment. MR . CH AIRMAN: (a)- -pass . The Honourable Member for St . George. MR . BILLIE URUS KI : Thank you, Mr . Chairman .

I wonder if the Minister cou­ ld indicate to me to what extent has the Commission dele gated its authority to the various dep artments, in te rms of se lection and recruitment of staff . MR . MacMASTER : There 's five departments that have reached agreement with the Civil Service Commission, Mr . Chairman. MR . URUSK I: Could the Minister indicate which departments they are and how the functions , and which functions have been de legated, and how the organization or re-org anization relates to the Commission? MR. MacMASTER : '!he member wanted the dep artment 's themes?

Agricultu re, Labour and Manpower , Community Services and Corrections , Municipal Affair s, and Fitness and Recreation, and Co-op Development - they 're combined . These agree­ ments have been signed by these particular departments. It sets out the criteria to be met by the department bef ore a delegation would be all owed to take place . It sets out the terms and conditions of the agreement , which would be initially set for a one- year term, with subsequent two-year renewal .

They will foll ow the same high standards that the Civil Service Commission has establis hed , and they 'll be doing their own recruit ing. We will be auditing their procedures and working with them as they work into that procedure , Mr. Chairman. MR . URUS KI : Thank you, Mr . Chairman. The agreements that have been signed with the departments - is there a possibility of obtaining a copy of the agree­ ments that have been signed between the Commission and the relevant de partments? MR.

MacMAST ER : I can get the member a sample copy without the names on it , but the copy that will be used and is, in eff ect, in use , if he would so desire . Fine , I'll get that for him. MR . URUSKI : Yes, I thank the Minister for that.

I wonder if he could - before I get a copy of that sample contract - whether there have been any devi­ ations or any special clauses that have been entered into with some of those de­ partments, that they have signed agreements , and what the criteria is, what the basis of the contract is, so that one could understand as to what func tions have been transferred and how they will be handled on a day-to- day basis. Could the Minister go through sort of the system as it has been set . MR . MacMASTER : Well , the answer to the one particular question is no , there are no special types of agreements .

There will be one standard-type agree­ ment and I think that - at least I think that 's important . I assume the member opposite thought it was important. Before I just get into that , could I answer the Member for Logan. Last year , of the 17 meetings , Mr . Hunter attended 16 ; Mr . Hart, 15 ; Miss Bradshaw, 15 ; Mr . Pankiw, 14 ; and Allan , 15 , Mrs. Hazel Allan . I'm trying to keep the questions The terms and conditions of the agreement - we can do it either way , but I'm quite prepared to go through it now.

I mentioned that it is for one year, and I mentioned that it is renewable after that for a two-year period . It 's subject to satisfactory audit by the Commission . Staffing process to be used by the depart­ ment for competitions will be outlin ed on the appendix which the member will get . The agreement may be suspended or cance lled by either party . The staff of the Civil Service Commission may still partici pate , if the department wants them to - 1259 -

Thursday , 20 March , 1980 participate in the recruitment process . Prior to the expiration of this agree­ ment , staff at the Commission will conduct a review audit in consultation with or joint ly with the department , and follo wing discus sion , will submit a report to the Civil Service Commission and the Deputy Minister of the Department of Labour re­ lating to the effectiveness of the agreement . So it is, in fact , going to be audited.

The authority of the Deputy Minister is the recruitment and selection of per­ sons for regular , temporary positions and to es tablish li sts of el igible appl i­ cants for those classi fications germane to the department ; the appointment of in­ dividuals to regular , temporary, departmental positions , including the approval of the approve minimum salaries of appointments; es tabli shment of an appropriate ex­ amination and tests - and that makes reference to the Civil Service Commission, they will work that out with them. They will assist in preparations for arbitra­ tions .

They have the authority to waive competition when deemed appropriate, pro­ viding justi fication accompanies the appointment documents received by the Civil Service Commission; and to conduct internal compet itions in the de partment , pro­ viding this is noted in any appointment documents received by the Civil Service Commission . Requests for amendments to the terms and conditions of this agreement will be made by means of a submission to the Civil Service Commission .

So if, in fact , they wanted to amend at a later date the document which I will forward to the member , they would have to submit that to the Civil Service Commission. All decisions made under the authority of this agreement will be consistent with the intent of approved polic ies and procedure s, current or future , es tablish­ ed by the Civil Service Commission, with the terms and conditions of any collect­ ive agreement and with the publ ished qualifications for the various classifica­ tions . I think that pretty well spe lls out what they 're doing, Mr. Chairman. MR . URUSKI : Mr.

Chairman, di d the Minister indicate that the staff of the Civil Service Commission may partic ipate in the selection and recruitm ent process , that they are not involved in that process? MR . MacMASTER : That's exactly what the agreement is about . They may par­ ticip ate, if requeste d, or if the Commission des ired to . But the intent of the agreement is to give that recrui ting process over to the departments once they are in shape to take it on. MR . URUSKI : Mr . Speaker, the Minister spoke about recruiting.

My quest ion was whether they participate in the selection process after the recruit ing has been done and there is going to be, and I pre sume , unless there has been a change in the way the Commission makes its recommendations or at least now the Commission doesn 't make its recommendations, according to the agreements with those five de­ partments ; am I correct in that? Since the department is doing its own recruiting and its own selection process , then there fore the Minister is indicating that no longer is the Civil Service Commission involved in the recommendation process ; is that correct? MR .

CHAIRMAN: (a)- -pass . The Honourable Member for St . George . MR . URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, this is quite interest ing . The Minister of Labour now indicates and informs this House by nodding his head in approval that no longer is the Civil Service Commission involved in the recruitment and se lec­ tion process in the Civil Service. Mr. Chairman, the Conservative Party, the now Premier of Manitoba, in the last el ection and over the two years that they have now been in offic e, has constantly derided members on this side of the House of fi llin g the Civil Service with political appointments.

We have now a contract , signed by the Minister responsible for the Civil Service and the Minister of Labour, who indicates that no longer is the Civil Service Commission involved in the recruitment process , either that or in the recommendations that are made to the hiring authority, meaning the Minister , who is the ul timate hiring authority. We now have five departments of government operating in total polit ical con­ trol, Mr. Chairman, and I'm putting that quite bluntly . We have now the Minister - 1260 -

Thursday , 20 Mar ch , 1980 of Agriculture , who does not , according to that agreem ent , and I haven 't seen it yet , but if I recall what the Minister has sa id, they have the authority to waive competitions , Mr. Chairman, within the department . They have the authority to waive any competitions that the hiring authority deems reasonable because this is an agreement that has been signed by the Commis sion.

And the Com- mission has, in eff ect , waived its authority in te rms of the sel ection and the recruitment process because now, I pre sume - and the Minister can correct me if I am wrong - we have sep arate personnel department , full personnel departments , being set up within the various departments , the five departments Agriculture , Labour , Municipal Affai rs, Fitness and Recreat;i.on, and Co-op Development - and the Minister of Corrections , I be lieve his department , Comm unity Services and Cor- rections - are the departments that the Minister indicated .

So we now have not the Civil Service Commission , and not the merit principle that the Minister and the Premier talked about , "Now we will have the merit prin­ ciple come back into the civil service and we will have all the hiring done under the merit princi ple ." Mr. Chairman, what we have is a complete removal - and I am being probably kinder than I should be , and the Minister of Mines says , "wrong" , Mr. Chairman. We have a lack , I don 't mean a lack , but it 's a de finite direction to politici ze the Civil Service , Mr. Chairman.

We have the respective Ministers of those departments have full authority, through their deputies and through their staff, not only to handle all the recruitm ent and selection , but , Mr. Chairman, they have the right , they have the right to waive, they have the right to waive the recruitment process and the competition process that they can appoint , Mr. Chairman. And what does the contract say? The Civil Service Commission may participate . Well , Mr.

Chairman , I can bet your bottom dol lar that in the process in those agreements that have been signed that there has been • • • the Civil Service Com­ mission has been told to , "L ook, move into your corner and we will do the hir­ ing." I wou ld like to know, in those departments that those new agreements were signed , how many of the staffing offic ers from the Civil Service Commission sat on those competitions?

How many competitions that were handled by those departments have waived the sel ection process that the Minister or the hiring authority in his department has done the hiring without the process of competition, that they have made an appointment . Who sits , Mr . Chairman, who sits on the sel ection process? Is it the staff of the Minister 's department? Is anyone from the Commission there looking over and making sure that the procedures are being followed? Who is doing the day to day monitoring of this? Are the staffin g officers there in the selec­ tion process ? If they are not , Mr.

Chairman , I suggest to you that the merit principle that the Conservative Party talked about , they 've just blown it out the window in half the government, that the pork-barre li ng that they have talked about is now rampant in those five department s, but the contract that they have signed . And it is this Minist er , this Minister of Labour, who indicates, saying now that we have the merit princ iple back in the Service , it is he who has changed the ent ire Civil Service procedure s, and reall y , the intent of the legislat ion, by the changes that they have made in this year. And I, Mr.

Chairman, accuse this Mini­ ster of reneging on his responsibili ty as the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission in the delegation of his duties. MR. MacMASTER : Well , Mr. Chairman, I am pleas ed , I am reall y pleased that the member has decided to open up with jus t so much nonsense . It 's been reasonab­ ly calm , I must say , the last couple of week s in here . The questions have been fairly tough. But that type of ridiculous speech hasn't been made in the House under my Estimates for , we ll , since I got here , particularly from a member who was a Minister .

He was the Minister for the Civil Service Commission. Now he must have had other duties, because he didn 't check his Acts, or he didn't check the CBA , or he didn 't really · understand what the procedure was in any way shape or form , I say to you , Mr. Chairman. First of all, he 's talking about waiving competition . I guess he that the CBA, that 's a Collective Bargaining Agreement , and the Act , to take place , Mr. Chairman, if it 's a direct promotion from within. does, and has for a good period of time . MR . MINAKER : He wouldn 't know that though . - 1261 - is not aware allows that It presently

Thursday , 20 March, 1980 MR. MacMASTER : Well obviously , he didn 't know that . That 's something that is fairly fundamental Well , he made a big issue of it and typically , when you find that somebody is wrong in the opposition, they want to talk about a whole bunch of things , and they don 't li ke you to pick away at the false facts that they have presented . So we 'll put that to one side . Now he's agreed and he's nodded that, we ll, that 's just one area that he made a mistake, and now he 's getting some advice so we 'll see how he handles it when he gets back on his feet .

So we 'll put that littl e bit to one side . And what else was he talking about here? He said that I had signed an agreement . Now, he wasn 't list ening . I don 't sign any agreements . The Deputy Minister of the De­ partment signs the agreement with the Civil Service Commission . The Civil Service Commission has authority to do those things , as the member might have known . This is another littl e piece of the fals ehood that he portrayed . The Civil Service Commission has the authority to do that .

What we have done with the agreement between the Deputy and the Commission , it 's no longer the Minist er , it 's signed bet ween the Deputy and the Commission. And if he wants to say that the Deputies and all the personnel people in the gov­ ernment are something less than honourable , then he 's entitled to do that ; he is entitl ed to do that , Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have to read into the record some of the comments that I think are necessary to, maybe , put this silli ness to bed .

It should be noted that the Civil Service Commission is retaining full authority and respons ibility for selec­ tion of personnel as set out in The Civil Service Ac t. Rather than giving up its authority under the Ac t, it would be more appropriate to st ate that the Commission is exercising its authority as set out in the Ac t, and the member might recall that. I see him nodding occasionally . Specifica lly ,

Section 13 .1 of The Civil Service Ac t is entitled personnel selecti on. That particular

section states: 13 .1: "The Commission shall, (e)e stablish polic y , standards, methods , and procedures for the sel ect ion of personnel to provide consiste nt stand­ ards within each class of posit ion, and where in its opinion it is the pub­ lic interest to do so , the Commission may delegate respons ibili ty for selecti on of personnel and selection procedures to the em ploying authority." Now that

section was always there ; that 's nothing new. "Delegation will be a gradual process , and only those departments which have professional capabil ity and meet the criteria establ ished by the Com­ mission will be granted deleg ated authority ." At the present time , only nine of 17 departments would qualif y , and only five agreements have been actually concluded . "Certain class ifications , includ ing all senior of ficers and all posi­ tions class ified within the personnel administration se ries, will not be delega ted and will remain the respons ibility of the Commission .

It should be noted that in the past , a number of work share arrangements had existed within the Commission with certain departments , but without sufficient safeguards in the area of formalized authority , prerequisite criteri a, standardized selection procedures , or post-audit and review ." So there were many working relations in place within government for a good period of time , and now we are standardizing it and we 're documenting it.

"These arrangements will now be formalized , and controls will be tightened up with a regard to consistent application of standards, methods , and procedures within the se lection proce ss. Concurrent with the delegated authority , the Civil Service Commission has developed an effective means of auditing and monitoring sel ection procedures within dep artments to ensure compl iance with The Civil Service Ac t.

If for any reason it is perceived that de legation is not working within a particular dep artment , the agree­ ment contains the provision that it would simply be cancelled at the initi­ ation of the Commission. The Commission has identified that one of its roles is to encourage the devel opment of personnel management within gov­ ernment as a whole ." Now surely the member doesn 't want to dif fuse that

part icular role , or that initiative ; surely he doesn 't, Mr. Chairman. If you have capable personnel manag­ er s in departments, and if you want to encourage the develo pment of professional­ ism in this important area of government admi nistration, then you must be prepared - 1262 -

Thursday , 20 March, 198 0 to give these people the degree of authority and respons ibility required to func­ tion at a professional leve l. Finally, it should be noted that the concept of deleg ation of selection author­ ity is ce rtainly not new to government administration. As a matter of fact , Mr. Chairman, Manitoba is one of the last of government jurisdictions in Canada to move in this direction . The fed eral government has successfully implemented dele­ gated sel ection authority for the past ten years, and nearly every other provinc­ ial government has moved in this direction. So I hope , Mr.

Chairman, that that explains . In all kindness, the member has been away from that particular Ministry for a long time . If he would li ke me to get him a copy of the Ac t and spell it out for him, I am quite prepared to do that . Po li tic ization has not been an issue with this government , and even if it were , the procedures to be follow ed , the standards to be maintained, and the re­ cords to be kept on each competition under the de legated agreements are such that any interference or any abuse within this system would be immediately apparent.

In addition, as I have explained , the Commission will continue its role in en­ suring the application of the merit princ iple through a comprehensive audit of competitions held under delegated authority . A full audit report will be made once a year by staff of the Commission to the Civil Service Commission Board and the Deputy Minister of the de partment concerned , along with recommendat ions for improvement of the system where required .

It should also be noted that employees have the right , under the terms and con­ ditions of the coll ect ive agreement, or the regulations under The Civil Service Ac t, to request reasons why they were not selected for a

part icular position. And this has always been there - will always be there - and submit a se lection dispute to arbitration for appeal if they feel they have not been fairly treated . Every­ thing is in place. All we 've done , Mr. Chairman, is improve the system. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St . George. MR . URUSKI : Mr .

Chairman, it seems the Minister would li ke to wash this issue under his desk and try to indicate that since the Act does allow for delega­ tion of authority , that members on this side , and I in particular , should really not be so critical of his government for making the moves that they desired in this area - moves which he indicates will improve the system,