Manitoba Hansard — 22 April 2010 (Sitting 33B, 39th Legislature, 4th Session)

39-4-33b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXII No. 33B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, April 22, 2010 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P.

MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WIEBE, Matt Concordia N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1227 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 22, 2010 ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 26–The Addictions Foundation Amendment Act Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Healthy Living, Youth and Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Housing and Community Development (Ms. Irvin-Ross), that Bill 26, The Addictions Foundation Amendment Act, now be read a first time. Motion presented. Mr.

Rondeau: This bill modernizes The Addictions Foundation Act, brings it up to current standards, clarifies roles, and actually takes away the sexism that was in the act and moves it forward to gender-neutral. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 302–The Southwood Golf and Country Club Incorporation Amendment Act Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I move, that Bill 302, The Southwood Golf and Country Club Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi constituant en corporation le « Southwood Golf and Country Club », be now read a first time. Mr.

Speaker: Honourable member for St. Norbert, do you have a seconder for your motion? Ms. Brick: I do, the honourable member for Kirkfield Park (Ms. Blady). Mr. Speaker: It's been moved by the honourable member for St. Norbert, seconded by the honourable member for Kirkfield Park , that Bill 302, The Southwood Golf and Country Club Incorporation Amendment Act, be now read a first time. Ms. Brick: Mr. Speaker, the intention of this bill is to update the language related to Southwood Golf and Country Club and the shareholding procedures for those people who are part of Southwood Golf and Country Club. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Ophthalmology Services–Swan River Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: The Swan Valley region has a high population of seniors and a very high incidence of diabetes. Every year, hundreds of patients from the Swan Valley region must travel to distant communities for cataract surgery and additional pre-operative and post-operative appointments.

These patients, many of whom are sent as far away as Saskatchewan, need to travel with an escort who must take time off work to drive the patient to his or her appointments without any compensation. Patients who cannot endure this expense and hardship are unable to have the necessary treatment. The community has located an ophthalmologist who would like to practise in Swan River. The local Lions Club has provided funds for the necessary equipment, and the Swan River Valley hospital has space to accommodate this service.

The Minister of Health has told the Town of Swan River that it has in sufficient infrastructure and patient volumes to sup port a cataract surgery program; however, residents of the region strongly disagree. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Health to consider rethinking her refusal to allow an ophthalmologist to practise in Swan River and to consider working with the community to provide this service without further delay. And this is signed by W. Oberlin, A. Oberlin, E. Parachoniak and many, many others, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House.

1228 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 Manitoba Liquor Control Commission– Liquor Licences Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for the petition: The Manitoba Liquor Control Commission has substantially raised the cost of annual liquor licences for restaurants, cocktail lounges and other Manitoba businesses. The MLCC justifies this increase by stating that the full cost of an annual licence is being increased to better reflect rising administration costs.

For some small business owners, the cost of an annual liquor licence has more than doubled. These fee hikes are a significant burden for business owners. The decision to increase the annual licence fee, while at the same time eliminating the 2 percent supplementary licence fee payable on the purchase of spirits, wine and coolers, has the effect of greatly disadvantaging smaller businesses. Small businesses which do not purchase liquor from MLCC in large volumes will not receive the same benefit from the elimination of this supplementary fee.

Instead, they are facing substantially in creased costs simply to keep their doors open. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister responsible for the administration of The Liquor Control Act to consider working with MLCC to find alternate means of addressing rising administrative costs. And to request the Minister responsible for the administration of The Liquor Control Act to consider working with MLCC to revise the decision to implement a significant annual licence fee increase.

And to urge the Minister responsible for the administration of The Liquor Control Act to consider ensuring that the unique challenges faced by small businesses are better taken into account in the future. This petition is signed by P. Tubman, P. Dougall and B. Ward and many, many other fine Manitobans. Medical Clinic in Weston and Brooklands Area Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: Walk-in medical clinics provide a valuable health-care service.

The closure of the Westbrook Medical Clinic has left both Weston and Brooklands without a community-based medical clinic. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the provincial government to consider how important it is to have a medical clinic located in the Weston and Brooklands area. Mr. Speaker, this is signed by G. Carlson, E. Wiebe and G. Spence and many, many other fine Manitobans. Thank you. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Entrepreneur- ship, Training and Trade): Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to table the Supp lementary Information for Legislative Review for Manitoba Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade, 2010-2011 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from the Winnipeg Mennonite Elementary School Agassiz, 19 grade 4 students under the direction of Mr. Wes Krahn. This school is located in th e constituen cy of the honourable Minister for Housing and Community Development.

On behalf of all honourable members I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Probation Breaches Government Policy Review Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we've now learned that the offender who took the life of Tony Lanzellotti had violated probation 24 times over the seven-week period between the time of his sentencing and the time of the very tragic death of–and needless death of Mr. Lanzellotti.

We have been very disappointed to see the response of the government to date blaming the federal government, attacking the opposition this morning on CBC, on the part of the Justice Minister,

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1229 and completely failing to take any responsibility for what clearly was an avoidable tragedy.

And I want to ask the Premier today if he would set aside the political attacks on other levels of government, set aside the political attacks on the opposition and, for once, given his 11 years in control of the Province and a massive and tragic failure that took place within his government, will he today begin the process of dealing in a responsible way with this issue, apologize to the Lanzellotti family and their friends, unequivocally, without passing blame and accept responsibility for his government's failure? * (13:40) Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, this tragedy was one that all of us deeply regret happening to any member of our community, and we, obviously, do not want these kinds of things to occur in the future, which is exactly why we have worked to ensure that there are better processes in place to allocate resources to high-risk offenders that are at the greatest threat to public security and safety. And that is why the measures that we have discussed in the past have been put forward. Since 2008, when this incident has occurred, auto thefts in Winnipeg have decreased 38 percent and attempted auto thefts have decreased 60 percent.

Clearly, that is not enough in this situation, and so additional work has to be done which is why the Minister of Justice (Mr. Swan) has called together the chief of police, the RCMP, the head of probation and the head of prosecutions to come together and examine ways to further strengthen enforcement in these kinds of situations. Mr.

McFadyen: The response of the Justice Minister this morning on CBC to questions about what action needs taking was that he has asked his– he said, and I quote: What I've asked my officials to do is to make sure that Manitoba's system is in compliance with what other provinces are doing. I've asked my justice officials to do that, and they are now on that road to see exactly what other provinces are doing. Mr. Speaker, they've known about this situation for more than a year and only this morning is he announcing that his response is to ask his officials to canvass other provinces. Firstly, Mr.

Speaker, who cares what's happening in other provinces? Secondly, why such a weak response? Thirdly, how can they stand here today with these unconvincing claims of caring about this situation when their response is to begin the process now of canvassing other provinces? It's unacceptable. It's weak. It's late. It's unconvincing. And how can Manitobans have any confidence in their administration of our justice system when these are the weak, irrelevant and out-of-touch responses we get from his minister? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, it is clearly unacceptable that these kinds of incidents occur in our community, which is why the auto-theft strategy, the suppression strategy, was put in place in 2004, which is why, subsequent to this specific incident, another–a better and improved system of high-risk management was put in place so that the worst offenders were not able to perpetrate these kinds of activities, which is why the–there have been additional measures taken which have resulted in reduced auto thefts since 2008 of 38 percent, and which is why today the minister has followed up with the chief of police, with the RCMP, with probations and with prosecutions to build on things that have shown to be effective and identify further measures that can be taken to ensure public safety and security in this province.

Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, the fact that this is only happening today when they've known about these circumstances for more than a year, suggests that the only thing this NDP government cares about is media management. Now that it's in the media, he's decided today to check on what other provinces are doing. He's decided today to have a meeting of relevant players. They've known for more than a year about the circumstance of this case. In Estimates yesterday, the Premier admitted that there were other similar cases to this.

And I want to ask the Premier that if they're serious about getting to this issue, why not release the information about how many offenders there are on the streets of Winnipeg today who are in breach of their court orders in similar circumstances to these? Why are they continuing the pattern of cover up which he employed on Crocus, which he employed on Hydro, now which he's employing in the justice system? Why not make the numbers available so that Manitobans can at least begin to take one step toward gaining some level of trust in this incompetent government and its culture of cover up? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, two years ago additional measures were put in place which have resulted in a

1230 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 38 percent reduction in auto theft and a 60 percent reduction of attempted auto thefts. Less than a year– within the last year, additi onal measures have been put in place to have high-risk management of those worst offenders that put the public safety and security at risk. And this approach was one that officials and the government supported because it allows us to put resources where they are needed most, with the high-risk individuals. So it's not a question of starting today or yesterday.

It's a question of building on an auto theft suppression strategy which has reduced auto thefts in this province by 75 percent, 38 percent since this incident. It's a question of building on better methods based on validated research and validated effectiveness that shows that high-risk offenders can be better managed to protect public safety and security. It's also to say that we should never stop trying to do more, which is why the minister is bringing together the chief of police, the RCMP, probations– Mr. Speaker: Order. Probation Breaches Government Policy Review Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, 24 times the young offender who killed a Winnipeg cab driver in 2008 breached his court orders, 24 times he sent a warning to this NDP justice system that he wasn't interested in obeying the law, 24 times this warning was ignored. Yesterday, the Minister of Justice did all that he could to defend his government's weak approach when it comes to crime and to defend the offender. He was given this–he said that youth who were given two, three, four different chances to reoffend and to breach their orders, well, that was okay because Manitobans were okay with that.

We don't believe that Manitobans are okay with that. Mr. Lanzellotti never got a second chance, let alone 24 chances like this offender did. When will he start standing up for the victims and stop standing up for the criminals? Hon. Andrew Swan (Min ister of Justice and Attorney General): I don't know if the member for Steinbach was listening to the responses in the first set of questions given by the Premier.

Manitoba Probation Service is always looking to improve the job that they do to manage offenders in the community and also preserve public safety, and in this case–in this situation, we've continued to make improvements. And as we discussed at Estimates yesterday, as the Premier indicated today, in the past year the probation services division has brought in a new methodology to make sure that we're allocating more resources to those offenders whose conduct, whose past criminal history and whose other factors demand more attention. That is what we're doing, but we're going to continue to do more.

We're going to listen to what other provinces are doing. We're also going to listen to stakeholders, who are very important voices as we continue to move forward, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Mr. Goertzen: Listen to victims. Listen to Manitobans, Mr. Minister. This response is weak and is out of touch with what Manitobans expect from a Minister of Justice. This minister on radio this morning said that in response to this offender breaching 24 court orders that he's asked his officials to examine Manitoba's system to see if it's in compliance with what other provinces are doing.

Well, the problem is right in front of his face, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask him very clearly today: Has he sent a directive? Has he sent out a policy, right now, today, that in Manitoba every time a high-risk offender has breached a court order that it must be reported to police? Has he done that today, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Swan: If the member had been listening, he would have heard that I've spoken with Chief McCaskill of the Winnipeg Police Service. I've spoken with Assistant Commissioner Robinson of RCMP D Division.

They will be sitting down with probation services as well as prosecution services to see if there are other improvements that can be made. I'm very surprised, given that I know the member opposite took constitutional law in school, I would be very surprised to know why he doesn't understand why it would be important to listen to what other provinces are doing and the measures that are taken. We speak all the time with other provinces. The member needs to be aware that the dispositions that are given to young offenders by judges in Manitoba are under the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

We're also working with the federal government. Frankly, we're pleased they are taking steps to open up the act. We will speak on behalf of Manitobans to continue to do–to improve that act.

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1231 Mr. Goertzen: This minister is weak, foolish and he's out of touch with what Manitobans are saying, Mr. Speaker. This offender breached court orders 24 times. He was already recognized as a high-risk offender, and now the minister is saying that he's going to abdicate his constitutional responsibility and look around to other provinces to see what they might be doing. It's very clear.

All he has to do–and I want to know if he's done it today, if he's done his job today, if he's made a very clear directive–a clear, direct policy that every time a high-risk offender breaches a court order that it must be reported to police. Yes or no? Has he done his job today, Mr. Speaker? * (13:50) Mr. Swan: Well, Mr. Speaker, what I can tell the members opposite is that we have indeed moved to deal with the most difficult offenders and violent offenders in our community.

It's interesting, of course, the member opposite voted against all of the resources that have been put into the Winnipeg Auto Theft Suppression Strategy. That is a risk management strategy at pointing out the very worst offenders. Probation services work closer with the police, they work with Crown attorneys and, unfortunately, the member opposite and his colleagues voted against the resources for that program which has reduced auto theft by 75 percent since 2004. Auto theft is now at its lowest rate in Manitoba since 1992. There is more work to be done.

There are more improvements to be made, but we'll deal with risk management and improving our systems rather than a knee-jerk reaction, which is what the member for Steinbach is trying to get. Waverley West Geothermal Heating Unit Installation Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, Mr. Speaker, the–as we've seen over the last two days, this is a government that is very good at saying one thing but not delivering real action or real results in a whole variety of areas. Manitobans already know that they are a complete fraud when it comes to public safety. Mr.

Speaker, today, on Earth Day, we also know that they are a complete fraud when it comes to protecting the planet. A few–a number of years ago, this government went out and made a big announcement, in developing Waverley West , that they were going to go about putting in place geothermal units in 12,000 homes in that development. Well, today, 400 new homes have been built and there are geothermal units that have been put into not 12,000, but two homes so far in Waverley West. So they fell 11,998 homes short on that promise. And Mr.

Sale, the former minister responsible for this project, went on CBC and he said, and I quote: Well, I think the promise we made was really clear. No natural gas service is to be installed. I think there is some substandard reasons for why it didn't happen. I want to ask the former Hydro minister: Why didn't he follow through as Hydro minister on the promises earlier made by his government with respect to the environment, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, Manitoba has 25 percent of all the geothermal installations in Canada, with about 3.8 percent of the population.

Manitoba is the geothermal leader in Canada, and likely North America, for the proportion of installations and homes, institutions and commercial operations which use geothermal as a source of heating. The member is correct. There have been only 400 homes built to date in Waverley West, so certainly there is lots of scope to improve geothermal installations over the 11,600 homes remaining to be built, and Hydro and the developers and the government will work to see to see how that can be further done.

However, it should be noted that the most important thing to do in the construction of any new home is to minimize the energy required, which is why the Power Smart 2000 program and further improvements will be made to the building code to minimize, as much as possible, the use of energy in new home construction. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, as Mr. Sale said, they promised geothermal heat for 100 percent of the homes in the new development. So far, it's gone into one-half of 1 percent of the homes that have been built so far in the development. Mr.

Speaker, they are completely unconvincing on everything that they talk about. It doesn't matter whether it's financial numbers, public safety, the environment, and today on Earth Day they didn't

1232 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 even have a ministerial statement to address this issue as they have in past years. But I want to ask the Premier, more importantly, since the numbers from Stats Canada show that greenhouse gases are going up in Manitoba while the Stephen Harper Conservatives have brought them down across Canada, Mr. Speaker, I wanted him to just address the hypocrisy of the fact that their record is getting worse and worse with time. Other governments are making progress on this issue, and the reason given by Mr.

Sale on CBC was–and he said, and I quote: Well, I think the major reason, frankly, is a policy of Manitoba Hydro. I want to ask the Premier, the former Hydro minister: Does he agree with Mr. Sale that it was his failure that resulted in this broken promise? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's greenhouse gas emissions are 3 percent of the total in this country, when our population is 3.8 percent. We have a strong record of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Mr. Speaker, 25 percent of all the installations in Canada occur in Manitoba.

We have brought in the first biodiesel mandate in the country; legislation is in front of this Legislature right now which will strengthen that program. We brought in the first ethanol mandate in the country. We have moved on wind power just as recently as a few weeks ago, which members have opposed. We have brought in special programs to reduce the consumption of water. We are going to strengthen further the building code to have less greenhouse gas emissions.

And Manitoba Hydro has a very low-cost program for credit facilities for those people that want to install geothermal in Manitoba, which makes it one of the more accessible programs of geothermal installation in the country. And it is the envy of many other places in Canada and North America. Manitoba Hydro was No. 10 on efficiency under the members opposite; it is No. 1 under this government for efficiency. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, every day in this House we hear all kinds of rhetoric like that. There's no connection between any of it and what's actually happening outside of this building.

I think maybe the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms. McGifford) had it right when she referred to this as a mad hatter's tea party, the responses we get in this place which are in no way connected. I mean the reality is that greenhouse gas emissions are going up in Manitoba. They are making decisions based on e-mails that they get from Cape Cod, driven by the coal industry in the United States. They're going to make them go up even further in the future. They're failing on their promises at Waverley West. They're keeping coal plants open in Minnesota and Wisconsin.

They're wasting clean hydro-electric power with their decisions, all because every time they get e-mails from special interest groups, they panic. I want to ask him whether he will today apologize for the big promises that were made and for the failure to delive r on every environmental issue that they've ever put forward. Will he apologize today, and in the future when he gets e-mails from unreasonable American interest groups, will he hit the delete button instead of hitting the panic button? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the member for the question because it allows me to, once again, underline the value of protecting the boreal forest on the east side. The boreal forest is considered to be, according to some reports that are out there, it says, it ensures the survival of one of the best natural defences against global warming. The members opposite want to rip it up. They want to destroy the boreal forest. This government wants to protect the boreal forest. The members opposite are in denial. They are in denial that we have 25 percent of the geothermal installations.

They have opposed the biodiesel mandate that we brought into Manitoba. They have been critical of the ethanol mandate we brought into Manitoba. And we have done a number of sustainable practices in terms of housing and community development projects, all of which they have voted again in the past. Our record on greenhouse gas emission reduction and on climate change has been recognized with awards around the world. Only the members opposite fail to accept the facts in this regard. Greenhouse Gas Emissions Reduction Targets Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Well, Mr.

Speaker, it's his government that's already bulldozed down 600 extra kilometres of trees on the east side of Lake Winnipeg to make winter roads. So here's another example of no accountability. Today is Earth Day, a time to recognize the importance of protecting our environment and yet

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1233 this NDP government has so badly mismanaged environmental issues th at they're negatively impacting our surroundings for future generations of Manitobans. Environment Canada's recently released National Inventory Report reveals that Manitoba was only–one of only four provinces, Mr. Speaker, that has seen greenhouse gas emission levels rise. Nationally, there was a 2.1 percent decrease. Why has the Minister of Conservation so badly failed in meeting his government's emission reduction targets? Hon. Bill Blaikie (Minister of Conservation): Well, Mr.

Speaker, this sounds an awful lot like the question that was asked on Monday, but the emissions haven't changed since then. We admitted then that we were concerned about the fact that our emissions were up, and that left us with a challenge to meet the goals that we set for ourselves in Manitobans. But we continue to do the kinds of things that will ultimately bring down our greenhouse gas emissions. We've done an awful lot.

If you could see a graph between what the emissions are today and what they would have been had we not had the kind of policies that this green NDP government put in place, you'd see a big difference. Mr. Maguire: Nice try, Mr. Speaker, but he didn't fool Manitobans with that one. His answer provides no solace to those working so diligently to protect the environment for future generations.

And I want to remind the minister that The Climate Change and Emissions Reduction Act, passed by his own government, stated, and I quote: "The initial emissions reduction target for Manitoba is to reduce Manitoba's emissions by December 31st, 2012 to an amount that is at least 6 percent less than Manitoba's total 1990 emissions." End quote. Yet, today, Manitoba's emissions levels are nearly 25 percent above that target. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker, why does the Minister of Conservation continue to fail on our environment? And how does he propose to get back on the track, and where is the plan? Mr. Blaikie: Well, Mr.

Speaker, this government has had a plan, and we've done a lot of things up till now. We've got other things that have happened since that data was recorded. We've got other things that are– we're going to be rolling out over the next immediate future to deal with the problem that we've got with respect to the rising emissions. But the honourable member knows why–in some ways, why the emissions have gone up. It's because Manitoba is growing. It's because of immigration. It's because of a whole lot of things that the honourable member would presumably welcome. But I can tell you, Mr.

Speaker, I'm not going to be lectured in this House or any other venue by a person from a party, whose party, here and elsewhere, repeatedly rejected the Kyoto Accord, rejected the science with respect to climate change. These are the people–we wouldn't have had any goals to fall short of if it was their way. Mr. Maguire: Well, while he had his head in the sand in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, he should look back on the record in the '90s of this government on this side of the House. It was much more pristine than what's happened today. Mr.

Speaker, the former premier had the courage–his former premier had the courage of his convictions when it came to his government's greenhouse gas emissions targets. In fact, Mr. Doer boldly told the Winnipeg Sun in April of 2008, and I quote: "If we don't achieve it, I suggest the ultimate penalty in 2011 will be defeating the government. I believe the public will hold us accountable." End quote. Mr. Speaker, I assume the Minister of Conservation shares the former premier's convic- tions.

Can he now explain his plan to keep Manitoba from falling even further behind the rest of Canada when it comes to reducing greenhouse gas emissions? Mr. Blaikie: Mr.

Speaker, the day will come when Manitobans will get a chance to choose between a government that has tried and succeeded in many ways, and fallen short and admitted to falling short, and choosing between that government and that party and a party that never would have set any goals in the first place, that rejected climate change, that opposed the Kyoto Accord, that have been absolute dinosaurs when it comes to climate change since the first day it was brought up. Dauphin Lake Fishery Enforcement of Closure Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, on April the 12th, in this House, the Minister of Water Stewardship said, in reference to the Dauphin Lake

1234 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 walleye fishery, and I quote: "Last year, we initiated the closure and we enforced that closure during the spring spawn around Lake Dauphin." End quote. Mr. Speaker, why is the minister not enforcing the closure she announced last week? Hon. Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): Mr. Speaker, since 1999 we have taken many steps around– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Melnick: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We have many–we have taken many steps around the conservation of the fishery on Dauphin Lake, including reductions in commercial harvest, reductions in the daily limits for recreational anglers and a ban on catching spawning-sized walleye. We announced the second closure during the spring spawn on April the 14th. We've been very pleased with the response. We've been very pleased with the respect of the cl osure.

We understand that we–we understand this has been traditionally a very important time for the people of the First Nations, and I want to thank the people yesterday who came out to the ceremony and respected the closure this year, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, the Dauphin Lake walleye fishery is being placed in jeopardy by this minister refusing to enforce her own closure. The minister refers to some 50 consultation meetings on this issue. The minister says the government relied on science to invoke the closure.

The minister said in her Estimates that, quote: Science told us we had to be a little more protective this year. End quote. Mr. Speaker, I ask again: Why is the minister refusing to enforce the closure she invoked just last week? Ms. Melnick: Mr. Speaker, in 1999 the opposition announced a closure and walked away from it. During that year, some 6,000 pounds of spawning fish were caught. This year, there is considerably less amount of fish caught, we think somewhere around the 600-pound. That's one-tenth of what was caught during their closure. We know that it's important to enforce.

That's why, even during 1999, while there were absolutely no enforcements made, there were no warnings and no tickets given. This year we have laid two charges and issued 25 warnings. We are, indeed, enforcing the closure, Mr. Speaker, and, again, I want to thank the First Nations people for respecting the close during the spawn, and I look forward to working with all those communities in the future as we further protect our [inaudible] Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, today is Earth Day, a day to remind us of our responsibility to protect the resources of our province and, indeed, the world.

On April the 13th, the minister issued a news release invoking a temporary closure on walleye fishing to protect the fishery on Lake Dauphin. Yesterday there were fishers all along the Turtle River in Ste. Rose. Mr. Speaker, will the minister commit today to enforcing the closure she put in place just last week, or was this minister, once again, simply paying lip-service to the issue with no intention of enforcing our own closure? Ms. Melnick: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, we have invoked, for the second year, a closure during the spring spawn on Dauphin Lake. There is enforcement going on.

There is working with the First Nations and the Métis communities. We have also provided frozen fish which I know members opposite are against. But I want to quote the Winnipeg Free Press , that said: that this measure has kept most Aboriginal people from fishing those rivers during the week to two-week spawning season. We have invoked the closure. We are enforcing the closure. We are providing frozen fish so that individuals will not be left without during this time, and I want to thank the Aboriginal people who are respecting the closure ev en during the ceremony yesterday afternoon.

Rossburn Health Facility Diagnostic Services Reductions Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): The community of Rossburn has felt another blow to its health services in that community, Mr. Speaker. First, their emergency services were cut by this government, and, now, diagnostic services are being discontinued from five days a week to only a day and a half per week. Mr. Speaker, these services are important especially to seniors who can't travel long distances. When I checked with the health authority region, I

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1235 was told that, indeed, there's a retirement but that retirement position will not be filled. I'd like to ask the Minister of Health why this position will not be filled and why those services are going to be cut in the community of Rossburn. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I thank the member for the question. We know that recruitment and retention of professionals to rural Manitoba can be more challenging in some places. Certainly we are experiencing, in some areas, shortages of diagnostic personnel.

We're working to train more of those, but at the specific time, the regional health authority, who, of course, is in charge of planning for human resources and availability of diagnostics, has made a decision. Certainly they are going to continue to work to review this decision to try to bring as many services closer to home wherever possible. It isn't always possible, Mr. Speaker. I concede that point. We have made very good strides in a number of areas.

This was an area that was a particular challenge, and they are going to continue to review the overall diagnostic opportunities, with a view to human resources, in the region specifically. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Speaker, the community of Rossburn also serves a la rge Aboriginal community next door to it. Those individuals have used the diagnostic services in Rossburn fairly extensively, but what was disconcerting was the fact that the recruitment policy had changed for the Rossburn facility and that, indeed, no professional would be sought at this time after the retirement.

I want to ask the minister whether she's prepared to perhaps send a directive that would change the direction that the health region is going and allow the Rossburn community–or the health facility to hire this professional so that services can be offered not only to Rossburn but, indeed, to the Aboriginal community next door. * (14:10) Ms. Oswald: Again, we work ve ry frequently with our regional health authorities on the issue of strengthening health human resources and doing overall planning for diagnostics, for primary care, for acute care.

And, again, there are challenges in bringing professionals to communities and to regions, and they have to have the best possible plan that they can to ensure that diagnostics are available across different areas. We know that we have seen a net increase of nurses and of doctors, but we have to continue to work with our pathologists, with our lab techs and others to build that workforce.

Again, we're going to work with the regional health authority to provide the best plan for all citizens of the region so that they can have access in the best possible way with the human resources complement that they have available to them now, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister's comments are perhaps acceptable in a general sense, but we're talking about a specific community here who have been told that the technician will not be– the professional will not be rehired once the retirement occurs. Mr. Speaker, this service is going from five days a week to one and a half days per week.

That's a tremendous cutback, and I don't know how the minister can stand here and make general statements when, indeed, the communities of Rossburn and the Aboriginal community of Waywayseecappo will be impacted very significantly and very directly. So I'm asking the minister whether or not this matter can be reviewed again and whether she would consider giving a directive to the regional health authority to ensure that th ose services are at least maintained to a 50 percent or a 75 percent level rather than almost being cut totally? Ms. Oswald: Again, Mr. Speaker, the short answer would be yes.

I'm very prepared to continue this conversation with the regional health au thority about availability of professionals with a view to the best possible way of sharing this expertise, sharing expert–the technology and equipment, making sure that people can have the best access possible. We know that our commitment to bringing diagnostics to rural Manitoba is very clear and robust. We're going to continue to do that. This particular area was a challenge. In the region, generally, the–that has more health facilities, on average, than other regional health authorities.

This did represent the challenge, but we will continue to work with them with the view to the best possible services and arrangement of professionals and technology that are available in the region. Conservation Department Budget Reductions Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, around the globe today millions and millions of people are recognizing and celebrating Earth Day.

1236 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 It's a day when people get involved in community events to raise awareness about the environment and what we can do to protect our fragile ecosystems. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans are standing up and saying that the environment is really important, so I'd like to ask the Premier to tell Manitobans why his government has chosen to cut the budget for the Department of Conservation. Doesn't he realize that a healthy environment is essential to a healthy province? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the initiatives we're taking for climate change and to protect the earth are–go across a variety of departments. For example, we have the first ever Water Stewardship Department in the province of Manitoba. The Department of Conservation is proceeding with a two-million tree-planting program this year as part of our long-term commitment to continue to have healthy forests in Manitoba. The Department of Housing and Community Development is working in neighbourhoods to redevelop housing and to reduce energy consumption there. We have brought in the biodiesel mandate which I've mentioned earlier.

And we have–in addition, Mr. Speaker, we're continuing to build Manitoba Hydro in the north so that we can provide clean energy to our customers to the south of us. And just a few weeks ago we announced a wind project in St. Joseph, Manitoba, which will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 350,000 tonnes, the equivalent of over 70,000 automobiles. There are many initiatives all across this province of which the Province is supporting and participating in to protect Mother Earth. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, you know, it sounds as if the Premier really believes that he is doing a good job of environmental stewardship.

I think he's got some green-coloured glasses on today. Take–many examples can show that he's doing a poor job. I mean, take, for example, the Grass River Provincial Park. The minister–Premier's allowing a logging road right through the centre of this park claiming a logging road isn't really logging activity. Take Waverley West, the Premier has not only broken, he's slashed his promise, his commitment to have a geothermal subdivision. Look, I ask the Premier: How–with all this going on, with all the broken promises, why does he consider this good environmental stewardship? Mr.

Selinger: I'm glad the member raised the issue of logging in parks. This is the government that removed logging from all but one park in Manitoba. And in the park where that logging occurs–in the park where–in that park where that logging occurs, there are conservation practices in place that ensure for every log taken out, there's one planted to replace it, so it's a sustainable forest practice industry there.

This province has been very assertive on protecting the forest, which is why–need–should I mention this again?–we're protecting the boreal forest on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, which is why we're seeking UNESCO designation for that boreal forest on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. Members opposite say that they support the earth, but they don't want to do anything to protect the boreal forest. It's really hypocritical in the extreme, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is all talk and no action when it comes to the environment. His latest budget proves it.

When push comes to shove in the government, the environment was the first budget to get cut. Instead of reducing his Cabinet, he cut environmental funding. He cut 5 percent for conservation programs, 3 percent for regional conservation operations, 8 percent for minor capital projects in conservation, more than a million dollars for sustainable development education and 3 million less for environmental stewardship. And they've allowed our greenhouse gas emissions to rise by 34 percent. I ask the Premier why he is clear-cutting when it comes to the environment. Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, we're the government that put an environmental education component into the education formula so that all young people in our public schools can have access to opportunities to learn about the environment, can do projects on it, can implement projects on it. That was never done before in the province until we brought that policy in. We're the government that has brought in the ability to control spreading of manure in Manitoba to protect the water resources. We're the government that is moving on protecting Lake Winnipeg. And, Mr. Speaker, we are the government that's protecting

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1237 the boreal forest. And all of these measures are adding up to a program which shows that we care about the environment. We can show measurable results for that. And it is true, from time to time, there has been a 1 percent increase in greenhouse gas emissions, but in the last decade, our growth in greenhouse gas emissions has been flat, when it's been going up everywhere else in the country. Environmental Initiatives Government Support Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, today is indeed Earth Day and the Manitoba government is mindful of our ongoing responsibility to thoughtfully nurture our world with respect, integrity and purpose. Mr. Speaker, I know members opposite don't think it's important, but we on this side of the House do. That's why I'm so proud of our government's UNESCO World Heritage Site vision for the boreal forest on the east side, and that's why I'm proud to be of a government that is undertaking the most–the boldest environmental initiative perhaps in North America. Mr.

Speaker, on Earth Day and every day, our government works with integrity in all Manitoba communities. Could the Minister of Conservation please advise the Legislature of any green initiatives recently announced in my home community of Brandon to further celebrate Earth Day? Hon. Bill Blaikie (Minister of Conservation): It's nice to get a question about the environment from someone who actually cares about the environment, from somebody who isn't part of a party that's fought every measure to protect the environment here in Manitoba year after year, Legislature after Legislature, parliament after parliament.

But today, Mr. Speaker, what we announced in Brandon is a $50-million grant to help the City of Brandon proceed with an 18-month pilot project for the curb-side pickup of composting–$50 million– $50,000, I wish it was 50 million. That's a lot of compost. But–so we've done that and today, Mr. Speaker, we also announced that we're going to proceed with the planting of 2 million trees this year, all part of our efforts to fight climate change, something I know the people on the other side don't believe in. But we do believe the climate is changing and we're doing something about it. Mr.

Speaker: –oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Earth Day Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): Mr. Speaker, as members know, today is Earth Day. More than six million people across our country will join an estimated one billion people worldwide in staging events to promote environmental awareness. Celebrated in the United States since 1970 and internationally since 1990, Earth Day has proven to be an effective educational tool as well as a catalyst for substantive political action on environmental issues. Here in Manitoba, a community clean-up is set to take place in Norway House.

In Winnipeg, Lavallee School is in the midst of a week-long recycling challenge. Today, the Habitat for Humanity ReStore is holding its fifth annual Earth Day sale, and this evening, at St. Mary's Road United Church, Earth Day Festival 2010 will take place with speakers, displays and children's activities. Mr. Speaker, the number of activities here and across Canada is both impressive and fitting. Both this province and the country of which it is a part are endowed with a blessing of land and natural resources of unparalleled expanse and richness.

With this blessing comes a special responsibility to be relentless and imaginative stewards towards the land. Mr. Speaker, I am proud that our government takes the environment and its attendant issues seriously. The commitment towards the establish- ment of the Pimachiowin Aki World Heritage Site on Lake Winnipeg's east side is an acknowledgement of the centrality of our environment to us as a community.

The Pimachiowin Aki project is a bold step forward and one which will once again leave behind the cynics who strive unsuccessfully, time and again, to drag down major projects that ultimately prove to enliven our province and strengthen our communities. In closing, let me thank the volunteers who have pitched in to host local Earth Day events. You are helping to foster awareness about an issue around which the stakes could possibly not be higher. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

1238 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Well, Mr. Speaker, I was going to thank the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Blaikie) and environment for his ministerial statement on the importance of the Earth Day today, but he didn't give one. And so that's how important, or lack of importance there is in this government in regards to the environment in Manitoba. So today I want to say, on behalf of all Canadians and over a billion people worldwide that– to encourage them to celeb rate the 40th anniversary of Earth Day. Mr.

Speaker, Earth Day was evolved greatly since its humble beginnings as an education and awareness day on American university campuses in the 1970s. Today Earth Day is a global and advocacy event celebrated in over 170 countries. Earth Day aims not only to foster awareness around climate and environmental issues, but also to convince people to adopt greener, more environmentally friendly practices in their lives.

But yet this government, this NDP government, has just revealed to Environment Canada–as just revealed by Environment Canada, has broken their own promise to decrease greenhouse gas emissions as they put into law just a few years ago. While Canada has an average–on average decreased its greenhouse gas emissions by 2.1 percent; this government has increased theirs by nearly 1 percent, one of only four provinces in Canada to increase, I might add, Mr. Speaker, breaking their own legislation.

This government also forced Hydro to waste $640 million to build an unenvironmentally Bipole III hydro line down the west side of the province. This government is forcing Winnipeg taxpayers to pay $350 million to remove nitrates from waste water that the scientists have told them that they don't need to do, Mr. Speaker. And, Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Selinger) just said that he knows what hypocrisy is, yet he cut– just finished cutting 600 kilometres of trees to make winter roads for–get this–safety and, quote, environmental protection on the east side. Well, you can't have it both ways.

Even the former NDP premier knows that the public will throw this government out if they don't meet their legislated mandate that they set out for themselves just two years ago. But there is hope, Mr. Speaker. Manitobans–as Manitobans, there are countless simple and easy changes that can be adopted to our part–to do our

part in preserving our environment for the future generations. We can use water more efficiently, conserve energy, increase recycling, choose more efficient transportation and make greener shopping choices. These are but a sample of the actions that we can and should adopt to ensure a greener future for our planet. I invite all Manitobans to take

part in an Earth Day event in their communities. These could include events such as the fifth annual Earth Day sale at the Habitat for Humanity Winnipeg ReStore and the Earth Day Festival 2010 at the St. Mary's Road United Church. Mr. Speaker, I encourage all Manitobans to take

part in Earth Day and to do their part to help the environment. I further encourage all Manitobans to make every day Earth Day and find ways to incorporate greener, more environmentally sustainable practices in their everyday lives. Thank you. Manitoba Volunteer Week Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): I rise today to recognize one of the most important resources in any community, our volunteers. During Manitoba's Volunteer Week, it is important that we take some time to honour those who devote their precious time to the service of others. The young and old alike volunteer at all capacities.

They help fund raise for the less fortunate and the sick, assist in construction and rehabilitation of homes, and mentor others. Manitoba volunteers have been instrumental in lending a helping hand with floods and forest fires in our province. Many take up volunteer postings overseas to help deliver medicine, supplies and front-line services to others. The kindness and dedication of our volunteers are truly inspiring, setting a worthy example for all of us to follow. I hold a special place in my heart for those volunteers who devote themselves to a community service in their later years.

My own mother, Myrtle Anderson who is 91, continues helping newcomers to her seniors' home, undaunted by her age or physical condition. I always admire elderly people like her who still have the energy and the wherewithal to contribute to society.

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1239 Two sisters, Elsie Low and Janet Stimpson have been volunteering with the Deer Lodge Centre Auxiliary in my constituency for almost a quarter of a century now. These two incredible women are in charge of Second Debut, a second-hand clothing and household items sale held every two weeks in the centre. And while it may be impolite to speak of a lady's age, I think it should be mentioned that Elsie is 93 and Janet is 86, which has not stopped them from spending hours helping visitors and patients find that extra special item at a bargain price.

I was even able to find a few treasures in their sales while working in Deer Lodge almost 10 years ago. Mr. Speaker, Volunteer Week is our opportunity to reflect on the actions of volunteers and to consider dedicating more of our time to benefit others. I encourage all Manitobans to thank the volunteers they know for their selfless devotion this week and to volunteer for a worthy cause themselves. Thank you. Women's Institute of Manitoba 100th Anniversary Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to mark a truly special anniversary.

This year, the Women's Institute of Manitoba celebrates its 100th anniversary. The Women's Institute began in Morris in 1910 as an advocate for the recognition of women's capabilities. Since then, Women's Institute has evolved into a first-class advocacy and educational organization. Inspired by the motto "For Home and Country" the Women's Institute dedicates itself to personal development, family, agriculture, rural development and community action. The institute organizes a number of events throughout the year not only to celebrate achievements but also to raise awareness.

Provincially, the institute operates as an umbrella organization with six regional boards and it is also associated with the national Federated Women's Institute of Canada and the international Association of Country Women of the World. From May 13th to the 15th, the Women's Institute will celebrate its 100th anniversary at a southern Manitoba convention centre in Morris. As part of its centennial celebrations, the institute will be hosting the Honourable Flora MacDonald, Canada's first female Minister of Foreign Affairs as a keynote speaker.

In addition to advocacy, the institute runs a number of other initiatives. It runs a number of educational programs, mentoring programs, and regional and provincial conventions. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all members of this Assembly, I would like to extend a heartfelt congratulations to the Women's Institute for achieving this landmark anniversary. I would also like to thank Justina Hop, the institutes president and everyone else involved with the institute for their dedication and contribution to their community. Thank you. Olive Lillie Hon.

Peter Bjornson (M inister of Entrepreneur- ship, Training and Trade): Healthy and vibrant communities are the result of citizens' commitment to one another. Each year, the Selkirk and District Chamber of Commerce honours a chosen Citizen of the Year and I would like to speak today about this year's recipient, Olive Lillie. I cannot think of a more deserving individual for this award. Olive grew up near Selkirk and began to contribute to her community at an early age.

She was a fixture at her local church, assisting with various activities and was such a welcome presence that she eventually became an edu cator of young minds as the Sunday school teacher. A young girl while war was raging in Europe, Olive would also accompany her mother to the Selkirk Legion to knit clothing items for soldiers. She later became a lifetime member of the Legion Ladies Auxiliary, the Selkirk Friendship Centre and the St.

Peter's Old Stone Church in East Selkirk, where she was instrumental in helping to restore the church in 2003. * (14:30) Olive saw a need in her community and lent her time and energy to serve through volunteering at the Selkirk Soup Kitchen for several years. As a strong First Nations woman, Olive also invested herself in keeping her rich heritage alive through serving on the Manitoba Métis Federation and Rupert's Land Wechetowin committees. Cu rrently, she is also acting as the chair of the Chief Peguis Heritage Park committee.

Among her highest achievements, Olive lovingly raised 11 children and foster kids and is now a grandmother to 28 grandchildren.

1240 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to recognize her today because it is individuals such as Olive that make communities out of neighbourhoods and instil in all of us the belief that it is truly better to give than receive. Thank you for all of your contributions, Olive, and congratulations on your award. You certainly have earned it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would move, seconded by the member from River Heights, that under rule 36(1), the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the urgent need for the government to reconsider its commitment to spend $126 million tax dollars for four water bombers at a time when Manitoba's experiencing record-high annual deficits. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. It's been moved by the honourable member for Inkster, seconded by the honourable member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard), that un der rule 36(1), the ordinary business of th e House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the urgent need for the government to reconsider its commitment to spend $126 million tax dollars for four water bombers at a time when Manitoba is experience record-high annual deficits.

Before recognizing the honourable member for Inkster, I believe I should remind all members that under rule 36(2), the mover of a motion on a matter of urgent public importance and one member from the other parties in the House is allowed not more than 10 minutes to explain the urgency of debating the matter immediately. As stated in Beauchesne's citation 390, urgency in this context means the urgency of immediate debate, not of the subject matter of the motion.

In their remarks, members should focus exclusively on whether or not there is urgency of debate and whether or not the ordinary opportunities for debate will enable the House to consider the matter early enough to ensure that the public interest will not suffer. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I do believe that the government needs to be held to account for the decision that it has made, believing, ultimately, that it is a poor decision. And, there is excessive amounts of waste of government tax dollars, of public tax dollars, and I think this is a good example of waste from the government. Mr.

Speaker, the government is proposing to put together or to purchase four water bombers at a cost of in excess of $126 million. And, when I asked the question yesterday of the Premier (Mr. Selinger), the Premier made it very clear, and I quote from yesterday's Hansard: "It's a part of our stimulus program." Well, Mr. Speaker, that would be very questionable, at best, in terms of the number of jobs that would be created by the–acquiring those particular aircrafts. I would suggest to you, if anything, Manitoba will lose jobs because of that particular purchase.

As the Premier in his answer to the question, he talked about the quality maintenance and the amount of maintenance work that is done. That maintenance work, in most part, is done here in the province of Manitoba. Those planes are not built in the province of Manitoba. So, Mr. Speaker, one would question in terms of how it is he believes the purchasing of these four aircraft is going to help stimulate or provide more economic activity in the province of Manitoba. But having said that, Mr. Speaker, I want to go to the province of Newfoundland-Labrador and in Newfoundland and Labrador, it is–it's stated in a news

article back in 2009 that–[interjection] I would ask for members to pay attention here, so we will understand why their decision is a very poor one. Economic turbulence has prompted the Newfoundland and Labrador government to ground its plans to buy new water bombers, struggling manufacturer Bombardier. In fact, Mr. Speaker, it goes on, and this is what the minister had to say: We could just rebuild the motors and the aircraft is fine to operate for many years into the future. Let's go to western Canada.

The government of Saskatchewan has recently–the government has recently purchased some retr ofit kits for their older Bombardier water bombers. So there is still, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to you, alternatives that the government could have looked at. I'm familiar with aircrafts. For a number of years I served in the Canadian Forces. I'm familiar with

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1241 one of the greatest planes that the Canadian military had–was the DC-3. And the DC-3 was one of those planes that many pilots that have flown the Hercules aircraft would tell you, wa s one of the best aircrafts ever built. And I suspect that there might even be some of those DC-3s flying around today. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to you that, just because a plane is 30 years old, does not necessarily mean that it has be trash–or 40 years old. You have governments in Newfoundland-Labrador–you have governments in Saskatchewan, that have recognized that fact.

They're not saying that their planes have to be replaced. They're, in fact, investing money in those planes so that they'll be able to use them even longer. If this government was serious about addressing the issues that are facing this province, to be spending 126 or committing 126 million tax dollars at this point, given the very nature of the social problems we have, given the very nature of the size of the deficit, the annual deficit that we're creating, which happens to be a record high, this is not a good decision for a government to be purchasing these aircraft at this time.

And for ministers, like the member from Thompson, to say shame from his seat is, as I would suggest to the member from Thompson, he is doing a disservice. He would be better off to spend some time– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Let's get a little control here. Order. When members are up, they should be debating the urgency–why we need to deal with it this moment–why it can't wait until tomorrow or whatever. That's the debate. I wouldn't get into a debate with other members. I would try and convince the Speaker the urgency of dealing with it at this moment. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate that and we'll get right back to the topic. There is urgency to this particular debate. As the government attempts to move forward with this deal, Mr. Speaker, one can question in terms of its actual motives. In fact, we know that this government actually had an agreement back in February in regards to the purchase of these aircrafts. So one could question as to why it is that they decided to exclude it from their own bu dget. If it was in such a high need and it was such a wonderful announcement, why did they exclude in their budget, on budget day? An Honourable Member: It's in the budget.

Mr. Lamoureux: You said–the Minister of Finance (Ms. Wowchuk) says it's in budget. Mr. Speaker, nowhere in the budget document does it say that the Province is purchasing four aircraft water bombers. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Let's have some order here. I need to be able to hear–order. I need to be able to hear the words that are spoken. I have to make a decision after it's over. I'm sure if there's things to say from either side of the House, whichever member gets up to represent them, will have that opportunity.

There's no need for members to be shouting back and forth because your member will have 10 minutes to convince the urgency and I'm sure some of the issues will be raised. Mr. Lamoureux: Again, if you take a look at the rationale, I believe, from this government has been– and I will look at the Minister of Finance's full presentation on budget day and I don't believe it's in that document, the word–the words "water bombers". And I challenge the Minister of Finance to show me in that document or in her speech on budget day where she made that announcement. * (14:40) Rather, Mr.

Speaker, this is why I believe it's so critically important. The government is in fact taking and manipulating what's going on on this particular issue. It is more important for them to try to get the photo op, to try to make it look as if they're doing something positive. And, after all, who's going to oppose the idea of having, you know, brand-new planes purchased? An Honourable Member: You are. You. Mr. Lamoureux: And, yes, I will oppose it, Mr. Speaker, and it's because this Premier (Mr. Selinger) is doing it for all the wrong reasons.

This is not the time in which Manitoba should be purchasing four water bombers. This Premier has failed to explain to Manitobans and failed to explain inside this Legislature why Manitoba has to have the $126– $126-million expenditure.

1242 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 Has those–have those current aircrafts, Mr. Speaker, expired? Are they not able to use them? Are we not able to do what Newfoundland and Labrador or the province of Saskatchewan is doing in terms of retrofitting, in terms of fixing so that you'd be able to increase the longevity of those planes? I realize that the Premier wouldn't have had that huge photo op if he was announcing that we're going to retrofit the aircraft. I acknowledge that, Mr.

Speaker, but I'm going to suggest to you that at some point, that the government's got to be held into account for even those announcements that they make that on the surface might appear to be good when in fact it's not in the best interest of the economy, it's not in the best interest of the taxpayers, that there were indeed alternatives. And this government has chosen to ignore the alternatives in favour of trying to get that photo op to make it look as if this government is sincere about fighting fires.

And that is why I believe that we need to have this debate today, and I look forward to how it is or what justification the government would have in terms of saying that this is something that's not important to Manitobans, and look forward to hear their actual rationale as why they don't believe those aircraft that we currently have cannot be retrofitted or fixed so that they can continue, like other provinces, into the futures.

And then, when Manitoba is in a better economic situation, then we go ahead and make the purchase of the new aircraft, maybe even work with th e federal government to see if in fact you can get some sort of a joint agreement to purchase new aircrafts. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Bill Blaikie (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I'll try to not take up the full time allotted to me for this because, frankly, I think that, on the face of it, this is not a matter of urgent and pressing public importance.

But it's obvious that, without even consulting a map, that there can't be any forests in Inkster because if there was, surely the honourable member would be concerned about the ability of the government to protect his community. But because there are no forests in Inkster–there's lots of forest in the constituency of the honourable member from The Pas and Thompson and many other members in this House here. And that's the reason that the government moved forward.

We have an aging fleet and this is a commitment to the future of Manitoba and a commitment to the future of the communities in Manitoba, in particular, northern Manitoba, but also any community that has forested areas that need to be protected, our provincial parks, whatever. And I can only think, Mr.

Speaker, again, begging your indulgence, that perhaps the honourable member is practising to be a federal Liberal because it was the federal Liberals who didn't replace the Sea Kings for decades and decades when they needed to be replaced, and we arrived at a point where those helicopters desperately needed to be replaced. They were about to be replaced, EH101s, and who cancelled the contract? Who did the very kind of thing that he's advocating here today with respect to water bombers? The Liberal government. The Liberals in Ottawa that he wants to be a part of, Mr. Speaker.

So he would like us to make the same mistake with water bombers. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, we're not going to make that same mistake. We're going to invest in the future of Manitoba, in the future of our capacity to fight fires. And the fact of the matter is if the member wants to raise this in the context of whether this is an appropriate expenditure in the current fiscal environment, we're in the middle of Estimates. I look forward to seeing him there. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I thank the honourable members for their advice to the Chair on whether the motion proposed by the honourable member for Inkster should be debated today. The notice required by rule 36(1) was provided. Under our rules and practices, the subject matter requiring urgent consideration must be so pressing that the public interest will suffer if the matter is not given immediate attention. There must also be no other reasonable opportunities to raise the matter.

I've listened very carefully to the arguments put forward, however, I was not persuaded that the ordinary business of the House should be set aside to deal with this issue today. Although this is an issue that some members may have a concern about, I do not believe that the public interest will be harmed if the business of the House is not set aside to debate the motion today. Additionally, I would like to note that other avenues exist for members to raise this issue, including question period, members' statements, the Estimates process and grievances.

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1243 Therefore, with the greatest of respect, I must rule that this matter does not meet the criteria set by our rules and precedents, and I rule the motion out of order as a matter of urgent public importance. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Bill Blaikie (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I think at this time the House would now resolve itself into the consideration of Estimates in the Chamber, and then the other two committee rooms as has been the practice in recent days, and tomorrow morning, I might add also.

I'm–I need to make that announcement today as well. So we will be in Estimates tomorrow morning as well for the ordinary hours. House Business Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Offi cial Opposition House Leader): House business, Mr. Speaker. In accordance with rule 31(9), I would like to announce that the private member's resolution that will be considered next Thursday is the resolution on protecting jobs in Powerview-Pine Falls, sponsored by the honourable member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawranik). Mr.

Speaker: It's been announced that the private member's resolution that will be considered next Thursday is the resolution on protecting jobs in Powerview-Pine Falls, and this will be sponsored by the honourable member for Lac du Bonnet. * * * Mr. Speaker: And also we will now move into Estimates and as previously announced that after the conclusion of today's sitting, we will only recess and we will continue the Estimates process for tomorrow morning. So now I'm going to be calling the Estimates for–in this–in the Chamber will be Executive Council; Room 255 will be Finance; and Room 254 will be Justice.

So we will now–and respective Chairs, please go to the respective rooms to chair your Estimate process. So the House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Madam Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE * (14:50) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume considering–consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice. As had been previously agreed, questioning of the department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Andrew Swan (Min ister of Justice and Attorney General): Just to put a few more things on the record as we move along. I know I'd undertaken to give some details on the Probe Research expense. I'm told we don't have that as of right now, and I'll make every effort to have that for tomorrow.

In terms of independent prosecutors, the amounts paid–my staff is still pulling that together. It may be something we have to provide by letter after we're done. There was also a question about level 4 offenders. Corrections is working on that as we go. If I receive it this afternoon, I'll give you that. If not, I think we're pretty sure we can give that to you tomorrow morning.

And, indeed, the Prosecutions branch has said that if you do favour a career change in the future, you're more than welcome to come and apply with Manitoba Justice. [interjection] Well, I couldn't do that as minister, but you'd be more than welcome. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I thank the member for the response to those questions, and the generous offer from the department and, also, noting that I had one good question yesterday, I will try to find another one today. My mother used to always tell me that even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again. So I may be so lucky again.

Just a couple clean-up questions from yesterday, and I'll get back into the more orderly–well, in my mind, orderly–questions that I had. One of the expenditures payments that I notice along with the Probe Research one that I just had a

1244 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 question about, falling under the 2008-2009 statements of payments, was the Acme Sport and Promotions company in Kingston, Ontario, $30,756. I would be surprised if there was a quick accounting of that, but if there is, I'd be happy to hear. If not, just put that on the list of things. I'd like to have a clear understanding of what that payment was for. Mr. Swan: I could advise that that payment was for inmate clothing. I understand that there was a tender and that this company was the low bidder. I say inmate clothing.

My staff believes it was all for inmate clothing, but if there was any other component of it, I'll undertake to let you know. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the member for that. Also, under that same year there was an expenditure of $72,432 for the Winnipeg Free Press . My guess is that's probably a compilation of different advertising over the context of the year, that it wasn't for one particular reason, and, if that's the case, whenever the department can pull together a compilation of the payments to the Free Press on that year. Mr. Swan: Okay. We will get back to the member with more details.

My staff flagged that it could be any number of things. It could be human resources, careers notices, for those w ho need other reasons to come and join Manitoba Justice, public notices that are required to be filed from time to time. But we'll provide more details. Mr. Goertzen: There's also two payments that I notice to Youth for Christ, one in Portage la Prairie and one in Brandon. Are those given under a specific application for a certain program or is that ongoing funding? Mr. Swan: Just to try and give a quicker answer, does the member have the total amount that was paid out to that organization? Mr.

Goertzen: In–for Brandon it was $10,100, and in Portage it was $6,000. Mr. Swan: Yeah. I'm pretty much certain that that relates to payments for Lighthouses that Youth for Christ operate in those two communities. If it's anything other than that, I will let the member know. But we have partnered with a wide range of organizations and indeed with Youth for Christ in those two communities. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that, and certainly am aware of the good work that Youth for Christ does in many different communities throughout the province. On the issue–a couple of more clean-up issues on conditional sentencing.

We're talking a little bit about those conditional sentencing orders. How are those monitored in terms of ensuring that people are following the orders? I know at one point there was I think an initiative for telephone monitoring [inaudible] phone calls. Is that still the kind of monitoring that happens to ensure people are complying with their conditional sentence orders? Mr. Swan: Yes, the telephone monitoring is part of it. I understand there's a voice recognition system. Individuals are required to call in and answer certain questions to confirm who they are. There's also curfew checks.

There are efforts made through Outward from Probation Services to ensure compliance. * (15:00) Mr. Goertzen: How many instances of non-compliance were there in the last year of record under the CS orders? Mr. Swan: Yeah, we don't compile that information. Again, probation officers deal with each person in their workload. Mr. Goertzen: Which I think is disappointing in the sense, I think, that useful information may not be politically helpful information, but I do think it's useful information.

But, again, I don't want to sort of belabour a point, I think, that's been made, and that the minister and I will probably just simply disagree upon. On the issue of Prosecutions and the number of positions in the department, I just want to ensure. He indicated the number of staff that were in the department. Are those actual individuals who are there and working, or are those the number of FTEs that are approved? Mr. Swan: Mr. Chairperson, I understand that Prosecutions is at or very close to complement. It was pointed out with the appointment of Rick Saull to the Court of Queen's Bench, we're down to one Crown.

So the numbers of prosecutors is actually the number of–pretty close to the number of bodies that there are now working. Mr. Goertzen: The allowance for staff turnovers is indicated on page 33. It's not an insignificant number. I notice across the board, almost, in Justice there's sort of an increased allowance for turnovers, specifically for Prosecutions. What is the reason for that figure and the general increase across the

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1245 department? Is there a desire to not fill positions as quickly, or that positions will remain open for some time? Mr. Swan: I think the fairest way to put it is that it's an accounting calculation to try to come up with a reasonable estimate of staff turnover, when staff may not be available for work. Again, as an example, Mr. Justice Saull, as he now is, his FTE is still there, but he isn't. He isn't at work right now and won't be returning to the Crown.

It's an accounting entry trying to take those things into account, and I understand every department does that. Mr. Goertzen: There seems to be, in my opinion– and I'm open to other opinions–but there seems to be a fairly high number. Is it–would it be usual to have that sort of a number for turnover or absent positions? Mr. Swan: As you'll see from the previous year, there was that allowance taken as there has been for, as I understand, many, many years. So it's the best estimate. I'm told by my staff that it has actually wound up giving a pretty good reflection, but it's just an estimate for the year to come.

Mr. Goertzen: So, if my math is correct, it would be about a 7 percent vacancy or absentee rate at any given time based on the figures presented? Mr. Swan: I agree with the member, it is in the range of 7 percent. Of course, it would depend which employee is away. It doesn't represent 7 percent of all employees, but the guess is it will be about 7 percent of all costs. Again, if I use Mr. Justice Saull as an example; he's at the top of the salary scale as a senior Crown attorney, so his absence–joyful absence for him–but his absence will actually have a bigger impact than a clerk who is away for a while. Mr.

Goertzen: Sure, I understand that because of the difference in salary, but it is an increase of about a percent on this particular allocation for absenteeism. It just seems across the board that there is an increase throughout the department of what's expected to be absentees. I suppose if it was–or vacant positions. If it was just one part, you know, one might think it was just an aberration, but it–and it may still be a coincidence, but it just seems more deliberate that there's more higher turnovers or vacant positions. Mr.

Swan: In coming to that total my department tries to use some historical figures to try and come up with that estimate and in other areas of the system, you'll see that that allowance for staff turnover is very low. So, for example, adult corrections, on page 75, the total salary costs are projected to be over $92 million. The allowance for staff turnover is not even $1.8 million. So it varies from department–or, division to division. It's simply the best estimate that the department can put forward. Mr.

Goertzen: You know, a cynic would say–and I don't count myself among cynics–would say that perhaps an effort to make the budgetary numbers work a little bit better to increase the turnover numbers are to leave positions vacant more throughout the year. But in any event, to move on back to issues around Corrections. I had asked the minister yesterday about how incidents are reported in prisons, how prison guards report either threats or actual incidents of bodily harm against them. How do they go about making that report and what triggers a report? * (15:10) Mr. Swan: Yes, I thank the member for the question.

A report is made on an incident whenever it is anything that a Corrections officer feels is significant, whether it is, in their view, a subordination issue with an inmate or something that's done, inappropriate use of profane language or threats or throwing substances, whatever the case may be, or if it is something that would be helpful for intelligence for Corrections; somebody has done something which indicates gang membership or something like that. Whenever a correction officer feels it's significant, they can then make a report.

It goes into the management system and the superintendent of that institution, and as I understand it, the executive director either of adult or youth Corrections will see that. There may be multiple reports from one incident, if more than one corrections officer goes to the system and makes that report, provides a

summary of the incident and then can result in a number of different things. It can be some institutional charges, if I can call it that, some discipline within the institution or there could be other steps taken by Corrections to deal with it. Mr. Goertzen: In relation particular to threats against guards or any sort of perceived threats to guards or actual physical interactions between prisoners and guards, is there–has there been an

1246 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 increase in the number of incidents that guards have seen over the last number of years? Mr. Swan: There isn't really an easy answer to that. I understand that the rate of reporting of incidents has been relatively volatile over the last many years. And there's always–I suppose since the entire history of jails, there's always been a history of incidents occurring. The number depends on a bunch of variables.

It's probably fair to say that, though, that when the inmate population is higher, the result as well is that the staff complement is higher, which does provide more opportunities for reporting of incidents. So there's–I can't point to a specific correlation. It is volatile, but it stands to reason that as the population goes higher, there will be more incidents. Mr. Goertzen: So you indicate that it's been volatile, so clearly there's a re porting mechanism and a collating mechanism.

Could the minister provide for me the number of incidents, either per institution or system-wide, over the last five years, broken down by year? Mr. Swan: You know, it's not information that we regularly compile. Again, incidents can be any one of a number of things. I mean, it's an incident, again, if a corrections officer wants to document that somebody has been showing gang colours. It's an incident if two inmates have a pushing match over what they want to watch on the one TV in the unit, maybe.

So we don't actually have an ongoing record of how many incidents or what type of incidents are happening at the various facilities. The information gets–it's fit in to actually trying to resolve whatever issue, whatever intelligence, whatever information is being put forward by the correctional officer. Mr. Goertzen: And yet the minister answered the first question by saying that it was volatile, the numbers were going–would go up and down. So he has some information, or I don't know how he answered that first question.

So could he just provide whatever information he has, then, whether it was the most recent collation of information? But he obviously answered the question the first time, so I'm sure he didn't just pull it off his head. Mr. Swan: No, sorry, I didn't pull it off my head. I've got very good, dedicated, long-time staff that are assisting me, and I can tell you that my staff have reported anecdotally that incidents come and go and it's not able to–you can't predict in an upcoming month how many events there will be–or incidents because different things will happen, as they are jails.

So there isn't–again, there isn't anything that's current that really can answer what the member is asking for. Mr. Goertzen: I guess it seems like something of a pattern. When you ask about conditional sentencing and how many breaches th ere are and you find out that, well, it's not really collated. The information exists somewheres, but it's not sort of put together. When you ask how many incidents there are in a prison, you find out that, well, it's recorded, but it's not sort of put together, so it can't be provided.

You ask how many breaches there are on court orders and you find out, well, it's kept by individual probation officers, but it's not actually collated, and one gets a little suspicious that the reason the information isn't put together is that it–so it doesn't have to be released. And I don't think that that does a particular service to anybody other than perhaps a political service to the minister. Is he saying that the number of incidences can't be collected, or that he just simply chooses not to? * (15:20) Mr.

Swan: Well, what I can respond is that my department has made a priority into putting their bodies and their effort into providing front-line services, and we think that's the most important thing. What is far more important is that when there is an incident that there's so meone that can respond to it, can deal with it, whether it's intelligence that needs to be fed into the prison system, whether it's a disciplinary issue that needs to be dealt with with the particular inmate or inmates, whether it's a particular adjustment that needs to be made in Probation Services.

The preference of Manitoba Corrections is to actually have people taking incidents and taking data as it comes and going and making changes and not pulling people off of their front-line work, collating information which, in the view of Corrections,

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1247 doesn't really improve the nature of the work that they're doing. So that may not be the answer that the member wants to receive, but it is certainly the way that Corrections does their work. Mr. Goertzen: I would offer that in today's day of modern technology and entering things into a computer, it seems a bit like a bit of a 1950s solution to a modern-day problem. I still suspect that there are other reasons behind it, but, again, we're going to agree to disagree on that issue.

We discovered, or you indicated yesterday, that the contract for the Crown attorneys had expired in March 31. What's the status of the contract for guards in provincial jails? Mr. Swan: I mean, these are really questions for Labour Relations, but I can tell the member that he's correct; the current collective agreement expired on March 31. I understand that an exchange of initial proposals has occurred, that at least one negotiation session has been held and there is another one scheduled later in the month. Mr.

Goertzen: And that's specific to the prison guards or are they under the same contract as the Crown attorneys? Mr. Swan: The answer is a bit more complicated than I would have initially thought. The short answer is, yes, those are two separate negotiations. The Manitoba Association of Crown attorneys, MACA, has a separate contract and that'll be negotiated separately. The Corrections officers are represented by MGEU. So some elements of that contract will be negotiated with that particular unit.

Other elements of their collective agreement will be bargained with the MGEU which represents a large number of government employees. Mr. Goertzen: So, then, for my own clarity, right now Crown attorneys and provincial prison guards are without a current contract; they're existing under the old contract. Mr. Swan: Yes, of course, contracts continue in force until a new one is struck, but that's right. The initial term of that has expired, as has many other civil servant groups. Mr.

Goertzen: So is the expectation, then, that the prison guards and the Crown attorneys will also need to fall in line with the Premier's (Mr. Selinger) directive of zero percent increases over the next two years? Mr. Swan: I can't speak about the negotiations. Mr. Goertzen: But it was a pretty public directive by the Premier. The Premier never spoke to the minister about what impact his comments would have on Crown attorneys or prison guards, and in the negotiations never came to him and said, do you think this would be a problem if we enforce the zero percent increase on prison guards and Crown attorneys? Mr.

Swan: I'm telling you we're not prepared to speak about the negotiations with Crown attorneys, with prison guards, or any other bargaining unit. Mr. Goertzen: I want to ask the minister about a report that came out early in December from a news agency that suggested that Manitoba was considering a faith-based prison unit and that it was under discussion. Was that–was there any validity to that report? Mr. Swan: The short answer is no.

That organization, as I understand it, had forwarded a proposal to Corrections but had not met with Corrections, nor had Corrections given any indication that there was any interest there. And just to add to that answer, that group had previously been part of a wider community consultation on generally where women's corrections was going, but there was no specific commitment made by Corrections or anybody else. Mr. Goertzen: So did they make a–I know they put forward, then, a written proposal. Did they put forward–did they give a presentation to the department about what they would be suggesting? Mr.

Swan: My officials believe that the contact never went further than the consultation discussions. Mr. Goertzen: And was it the department's position that the consultations wouldn't be fruitful, that it's not something they wanted to pursue so they ended the consultations, or is there an expectation that consultations might start up again at some point? Mr. Swan: I mean, I can tell the member that, really, things never progressed at all. There's been no interviewing of this group or any other group.

There's been no further information that's been either provided or requested, and there's been no decision made on various elements of the program that will go along with the new women's prison. Mr. Goertzen: So the minister hasn't ruled out or dismissed the possibility of utilizing a faith-based

1248 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 unit. And I'm not particularly interested about this individual group that's proposed here–I'm not even sure who it is–but the general concept of faith-based prison units, is it something that the department has ruled out? Mr. Swan: You know, our primary goal is meeting needs of female offenders who find themselves in the justice system. So we haven't really made any philosophical or ideological decisions. What we want to do is provide the best possible service to inmates that we can. So there's no real leaning one way or another.

As I say, we haven't gone forward with interviewing or requesting information from anybody who wants to provide services to female inmates. Mr. Goertzen: And I imagine that the same rationale would apply to male inmates as well. I know that the province–and the minister knows the province has tremendous problem with recidivism and the high recidivism rate.

And the American experience, I think, is somewhat mixed on faith- based prisons or units of prisons. * (15:30) I wonder if they've don e any analysis on if it would have any impact on recidivism, noting, perhaps, some commentators have indicated that the primary advantage is that when an individual then leaves the prison from one of these dedicated units there tends to be more structure or support built into the community that they're going into because they have established those contacts and that infrastructure already when they were in prison.

And that often is the challenge, I understand, that when individuals leave prison, they sort of go–either go back into the environment that caused them to run astray of the law already. So these dedicated units provide infrastructure on the outside of prison as well. Mr. Swan: I'll try to answer the member's question. We–in Corrections, we do believe in providing spiritual care to inmates, whatever their religious denomination might be. So there is programming already. We haven't looked seriously at anything more structured than that.

Obviously, with the prison population, for any program, we always have to look at the nature of the population, as we discussed yesterday, the high percentage of people on remand in for, in some cases, relatively short periods of time. We certainly welcome the spiritual care that's now provided in our jails, some paid positions, some volunteer positions. We certainly welcome volunteer groups who want to be involved with the prison population as long as they're acting in an appropriate way. And we certainly welcome any groups, again, appropriately, who want to help people reintegrate into life in the community.

Mr. Goertzen: Maybe then just as a final summation. The minister has indicated they–there's been no decision made; the door's neither opened or closed at this point when it comes to the idea of faith-based units in Manitoba jails. Mr. Swan: I would agree. I should add that the report that the member first referred to came as a surprise to myself and also to senior members in my– officials in my department. Mr. Goertzen: A couple of the related issues in Corrections. What are the current number of guards who are working in provincial jails?

I suppose there might be different classifications but whatever the easiest way to classify it is. Mr. Swan: I will have my officials take a look at that and try to pull that together while all we can give you right now is the total FTE positions in the system which the member probably has already looked at. So we'll try to get you something better and hopefully for tomorrow. Mr. Goertzen: That's fine. I appreciate the undertaking. On retention of employees, the minister indicated yesterday about the sort of average seniority of Crown attorneys.

What would be the comparable statistics for those who are guards in our jails in terms of their 'longetivity' in the–in that position? Mr. Swan: Okay. Well, I've discussed this, and we're unable actually to give you a turnover number, I guess is what the member is asking for. We don't really have that information at hand. Mr. Goertzen: Then going back to the anecdotal evidence that the minister referred to before, from staff, is there a feeling that it's more difficult to keep people in that–those positions today than it has been in the past? Mr.

Swan: Yes, I can give the member a ballpark estimate cobbled together, and please don't hold me to this because this is just an estimate.

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1249 The pool of corrections officers in Manitoba is about 1,600 to 1,700, although it continues to expand as we invest in correctional facilities across the province. I'm told that of those–of that work pool, about 100 will leave in a typical year. That includes retirements, that includes people who may go on to other careers, it may include those who go on to work for Correctio nal Service of Canada, it may be individuals going on to careers in law enforcement or any other pursuit. So, about 100 employees a year, I'm told, is the usual experience. * (15:40) Mr.

Goertzen: Does the human resource person of the department or branch keep statistics on stress-related leave or similar types of leave taken by prison guards? Mr. Swan: If I can let the member know that, you know, sick leaves are something that have been tracked sort of in terms of dollar costs, but not so much in terms of positions. And sick leave would take into account all kinds of leave, which would include stress, that would include physical injuries, that would include, you know, some chronic conditions as well. So I can't actually give a number or percentage of employees. Mr.

Goertzen: I'd be happy to take the dollar figure amount that the minister has, in writing if he'd like, for the last five years is fine. Mr. Swan: I'm told that we can provide that for the last five years, keeping in mind that '09-10 haven't yet been collated. So it may be a two-parter. I can give the previous four years. When the member gets the numbers, just please remember that there are a couple of different factors. One is that as the salaries of corrections officers increase and the number of correctional officers increases, the number will be increasing from those two factors as well.

So just take that in mind, but we'll get that out to you. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that undertaking and the caution. I'm not one to leap to conclusions on numbers, so. On the issue of–I mean, a more general comment. The comment's been made by the MGEU representative for Corrections as early as this year. His belief, that overcrowding in the prisons is leading to burnout and that–his quotation was that the system is truly beginning to fall apart.

I recognize there are different motives for why comments are made, but does the minister share any of that concern that was stated by the representative for the MGEU on Corrections staff? Mr. Swan: Well, first of all, we have a good relationship with the MGEU unit, and they do come forward. They've told me they've a good relationship with management to see what can be done, because we acknowledge there are pressures in the various provincial institutions. So we–that's why we're continuing to make investments, and why we're also continuing to increase the complement of Corrections officials.

I understand that we now have 10 recruiting classes every year. I understand that there isn't a problem in filling those recruiting classes. It sounds like there are a lot of Ma nitobans who are very interested in pursuing a career with Manitoba Corrections. So I take that as a positive step. As I've indicated, we do need to keep working to improve capacity, and, of course, we are adding to complement to make sure that conditions are the best they can be. Mr.

Goertzen: At one point there was discussion and, in fact, I had a discussion with somebody from the correctional centre in Headingley, and they'd indicated that a portion of the prison was going to be converted into what was essentially a therapeutic drug unit, where there'd be specific and full-time drug therapy provided to inmates who had presumably would have volunteered for that unit, but would have indicated some sort of drug dependency. Is that proceeding or has there been any further information on that the minister can provide? Mr. Swan: I can tell the member I don't have any information on that.

That isn't something that's in the works. Mr. Goertzen: A little surprised given who the individual was who discussed that with me, but is that something that the department would consider at some point? Obviously, I've had some–made some public statements about therapeutic drug prisons, but even using a portion of the current prison for a therapeutic drug unit, that's something that's been considered by the department? Mr. Swan: We'll probably save this for the discussion with courts, but we have–we've been pleased to partner with th e federal government on

1250 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 having a drug court in the community which is intended to keep people with addictions' issues out of prison in the first place. So there are services that are provided to individuals in our jails that have dependency issues. We always look at how we can improve and enhance those. Again getting back to areas where the member and I do agree, we think the ending of the two-for- one credit system will provide some more meaningful opportunities for individuals to deal with their substance abuse issues. Mr.

Goertzen: And we will, I suppose, when we get to the issue, of course, talk about the drug court. You know the success rate's there. One could argue whether or not they're encouraging or not. I suppose it depends on how one defines the individuals who are admitted into the court. But I still, just for the record, believe that there is a value in having that sort of a unit or dedicated portions of prisons. Certainly, with the record we have on recidivism, it certainly couldn't do any harm.

With that in mind, I ask the minister to provide in writing at some point in the near future the most recent recidivism numbers. I gather–I know that they're done every, I think, three months and then a look back from the two y ears ago when individuals were released and whether or not they've been re-engaged, recharged in the system. Could he provide the most recent recidivism numbers that we have? Mr. Swan: The member's right that every three months there is a retrospective document pulled together by Corrections looking at how releasees over the previous two years have done.

So I will certainly make sure that he gets a copy of that next time it comes out. Mr. Goertzen: –the minister for that. The incidence of drugs that are found in provincial jails–are there specific records kept on that and how often drugs are found from–in the possession of inmates who are in our correctional centres? * (15:50) Mr. Swan: I can let the member know that the primary way that it's reported is through the incident reporting system that we'v e already discussed this afternoon. That incident report may lead to, in some cases, criminal charges.

It may lead to disciplinary action, either w ithin an entire unit or for an individual, which can include things like segregation or a unit or an individual being locked down for a certain period of time. So that incident reporting really is the way in which those kinds of situations are funnelled. Mr. Goertzen: I'm assuming that, given our previous conversation, that there's no collated record of the number of incidents where individuals are caught with drugs in our provincial jails. Mr. Swan: Similar to other incident reports, no, there is no–there's no separate collating of that that takes place.

It's dealt with by Corrections staff on a corrective basis as the incidents arise. Mr. Goertzen: Does the department ever use drug dogs in provincial jails? Mr. Swan: Yes, there are two dogs that are trained for that purpose in our system. Mr. Goertzen: And the dogs are, for lack of better terms, owned by the department on a full-time employment basis? Mr. Swan: Yes, but they don't show up in our FTE statistics. Mr. Goertzen: I suppose they work cheaper than most of us involved in the system.

The–how often would they be going into–is it on a–it wouldn't be a regular schedule, obviously, because you wouldn't want to have that, but how often, would they, for example, be in Headingley? Mr. Swan: I can tell the member that they're kept busy, but I don't want to reveal how often they would be in any particular institution or what the usual pattern would be. Mr. Goertzen: I'll assume they're successful in what they do and they've had good track record, and is there any need to have more dogs on this patrol? Mr. Swan: Generally, Corrections is happy with the results.

Of course, the real measure of the results is what is then done with the information and the intelligence that's gathered . The dogs are considered to be an important part of the overall plan to try and keep contraband out of the jail system. Mr. Goertzen: Can the minister indicate how many police are currently assigned to the Auto Theft Suppression Unit? Mr. Swan: Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't have that information right now. The Winnipeg Police Service, of course, is responsible for providing the officers for that unit.

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1251 Mr. Goertzen: Could the minister undertake to provide that information? Mr. Swan: We can certainly ask the Winnipeg Police Service. Mr. Goertzen: You can probably ask him on Saturday night at the ball, but I'll wait for a more formal response than there. The Parental Responsibility Act, which, I believe, is under Corrections, if I– [interjection] Oh, geez. Well, okay, let me just hold on, then, on that one. Fair warning that the question's coming on that. Turnabout program is under Corrections?

There was a commitment made in 2000 in campaign to double the size of the program, although I'm not clear on what that meant, if it meant doubling the number of youth who would be going through it or doubling the resources allocated to it? Maybe the minister could just give me an update on that. Mr. Swan: Indeed, the number of individuals responsible for Turnabout program has doubled. A person has been added, based in Thompson, to deal with the youth in the north. Mr. Goertzen: So, it's doubled from one to two? Mr. Swan: That's right. Mr.

Goertzen: We'll have to make our election promises maybe less grandiose in the next campaign if that's–it seems to be working. The measurement on Turnabout for recidivism, I know the department–if I'm correct–tracks how many people, how many youth do the program more than once, and then that's their measure of recidivism. Is there any look back beyond that? And the reason I ask is I–the window's fairly small.

I would think that the–because it deals with a fairly defined age or–most of the individuals will be between a–age close to 12–that those numbers maybe aren't a very good indicator of the success of the program. Do they look at how many individuals who have gone through the Turnabout program are then engaged with the law past the age of 12? Mr. Swan: Yes, I can tell the member the way that it's tracked in terms of repeats. It refers–repeats are considered any child who's been referred two or more times in that fiscal year. So I believe the member has seen some previo us years.

It appears to be relatively stable at about 9 percent of Turnabout children are referred back in the Turnabout program within that same fiscal year. * (16:00) Mr. Goertzen: That's even a more narrow window than I thought it was. Would there not be value in looking at how many individuals–how many youth who have gone through the Turnabout program are then engaged within the mainstream justice system after their age of 12, just to get a sense of whether or not the program is having sort of any appreciable impact? Mr.

Swan: One of the difficulties, obviously, which again, I think the member for Steinbach and I agree on, is that the way that things are now working under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, there isn't–a child offending doesn't necessarily create any record that allows us to try and cross-reference them with the Turnabout program. And what I'm referring to is that a child may be involved in the Turnabout program, may then turn 12, may be picked up by the police and then may be cautioned and released into the care of their parent or guardian.

So I don't know that those statistics would be that helpful in terms of determining whether or not the Turnabout program is successful. I mean, it may, to be honest, it may actually make the Turnabout program look more successful than it is. We know that we're dealing with some children with some substantial issues, and I wouldn't want to say that just because a child doesn't get formally charged under the Youth Criminal Justice Act that that child doesn't have ongoing issues. So I'm–I can't really give the member a better answer than that. Mr.

Goertzen: In regards to the Spotlight program, can he indicate how many clients are in the Spotlight program currently? Mr. Swan: We don't have the number today, but I expect that's something that my staff can pull together pretty quickly. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the member . And if there are any recidivism numbers related to the program–it might be too new of a program, I'm not sure you would've done any tracking on that–but if you could provide that as well, if those numbers do exist.

I do have a question about The Parental Responsibility Act–and I'm essentially done with the issue around corrections now, so if I could do a one-off with whoever is responsible for parental responsibility, and I know it's not staff at the table–

1252 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 22, 2010 but can you indicate how often that act has been put to use and utilized in the last few years? And I'll let you define what a few would be. Mr. Swan: I can give the member details for the last five years: 2005, there were six Parental Responsibility Act claims; 2006, there were 10; 2007, there were two; 2008, there was just one; and in 2009, there was just one. Mr. Goertzen: Because it's not a large number of cases, can you provide details on the type of cases those were related to? Maybe not today, but sometime soon. Mr.

Swan: I'm not sure how much information we can pull together, but we will take a look and see if we can find information on the–as the member said– the few number of cases that have been filed under that act. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister and his staff for that. More generally, why is it that the act doesn't seem to have much robust use? Mr. Swan: No, I'm moving into the field of speculation because, of course, Justice doesn't make the choice to file. It's individual plaintiffs who decide to bring a claim under the act. There's a couple of reasons why that may be.

Individuals may, even if they were successful, may not feel good about their success of recovering against a family who may be judgment-proof. And when I say judgment-proof, they may have very little in the way of assets and very little in the way of income. The act itself provides an opportunity for a parent or guardian to defend the claims saying that they had provided an adequate level of supervision, and if the judge agrees with that, even if the child is found to have committed the act or committed the theft, as the case may be, that is a defence and the claim wouldn't succeed under the act.

So it hasn't received a lot of interest in the past number of years and I'm speculating those are the reasons, but I can't say for sure why individual plaintiffs would or wouldn't come forward. Mr. Goertzen: And it maybe reminds me a bit of the debate around the community safety act and whether who brings forward the claim and whether it is more difficult to have an individual do it as opposed to having it instituted by a director within the department. I mean, are there different ways that other jurisdictions use parental responsibility acts that maybe have been seen to be more successful? Mr.

Swan: I can tell the member I'm not aware of other provinces having great success with acts like these. It's not the only remedy which is available. I mean, a court can be asked to grant a restitution order if there's a theft or a damage claim. I can tell the member it's not something that comes up when attorneys general get toge ther, either as western attorneys general or across the country. Mr. Goertzen: So there's been no impetus by the act–or by the department to look at the act and see if there's a better way to utilize this type of legislation? Mr.

Swan: It's our intention that, where appropriate, there would be a restitution order sought in a criminal case. We haven't put a lot of–let me word it another way, we've had a lot of other priorities, so The Parental Responsibility Act hasn't come up for discussion. Mr. Goertzen: All right. I'm prepared to move on to questions around the courts. I think that's the order that I suggested we'd go. And then from there into Legal Aid, although I'm–well, maybe get into Legal Aid by the end of our time today.

In any event, regarding the courts, could you just list the number of provincial judges we currently have and if there are any vacancies? * (16:10) Mr. Swan: Right now, there are 41 Provincial Court judges and there is one vacancy. Mr. Goertzen: Where's the vacancy for? Mr. Swan: The vacancy is for a Winnipeg position when Judge Ron Meyers retired and tragically died very shortly after his retirement. Mr. Goertzen: Who currently comprises the judicial nominating committee? Mr. Swan: That is fluid.

Whenever there's a vacancy to be filled there is a–there are a number of spots which are filled automatically by Provincial Court judges, by the Manitoba Bar Association, by the Law Society of Manitoba. There's also three lay individuals that are appointed by Order-in-Council to be part of that committee. Mr. Goertzen: So that committee hasn't been formed to fill the one vacancy. Is that correct? Mr. Swan: That committee has done its work on that vacancy. Mr. Goertzen: So who did comprise that committee?

April 22, 2010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1253 Mr. Swan: I can undertake to provide that to the member. Mr. Goertzen: In terms of the Order-in-Council appointments to the that committee, what qualifications would the minister be looking at in terms of who he would have–appoint. Mr. Swan: Well, there'd be a number of factors. I mean, certainly, an important thing is being resident in or very–or in the area th at served by the court by the persons–by the person being seen as a leader, an important part of the community.

With most panels, we try to have one of those three people be somebody of Aboriginal heritage, and wherever possible we've also tried to include somebody, in many cases retired from law enforcement, but somebody with a law enforcement background. Mr. Goertzen: So past donor history through the NDP or history as a candidate to the NDP nominations or party, that would form no part of the decision? Mr. Swan: You know, it's an unpaid position. People come and volunteer their time to do this. We pay their expenses. So I don't think that sitting on a JNC is a prize for anything anybody has or hasn't done.

The people that sit on the JNCs are–they take their work very seriously. They work seriously with the judges and the lawyers sitting on that panel. So I'm pleased with the way that the system is working. Mr. Goertzen: And no doubt it's an important role and I–I'm not sure, my own recollection was it might not be as difficult to fill some of those positions as the minister is indicating, and perhaps it is a coincidence that past members had a long history with the NDP party and had been financial contributors.

I just know that the process needs to be held above reproach, and I'm sure the minister wouldn't want to do anything to taint that process. Are there any plans to increase the number of Provincial Court judges in the province? Mr. Swan: Yes, well, I should mention that at the current time there aren't plans to expand the court further. Right now the fu ll complement, when the vacancy is filled, is 42, which is actually one more than has been the traditional level. We agreed temporary to increase the number of judges, with Judge Wyant stepping down as chief judge, to try and find a good role for him.

So after the next retirement, the level will be down to 41. We are in– we frequently discuss with the judges and with courts how we can better provide judicial services across Manitoba. So that is a discussion I expect will com

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-4-33b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 4th hansardpdf 33b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	aa1ea6776a3729b4be8c9dcd6a841e7be664d46f

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