Alberta Hansard — 6 April 1984, Morning sitting (10:00) (Legislature 20, Session 2)

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Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

April 6, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 327 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, April 6, 1984 10:00 a.m. [The House met at 10 a.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES MR. STILES: Mr.

Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 93, I've taken under consideration the petitions for private Bills which have been received by the Assembly and wish to report that all those petitions have complied with Standing Orders, with the exception of the petitions for Bill Pr. 8, the George Harold Sibbeston Adoption Act, and for Bill Pr. 12, the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties Amendment Act, 1984. Mr.

Speaker, the Private Bills Committee has had under consideration the question of those petitions which did not comply with Standing Orders and recommends to the Assembly that the provisions of Standing Order 89 with respect to the deadline for the completion of advertising be waived, to permit those Bills to be dealt with once the proper advertising has been completed. I request the concurrence of the Assembly in this consideration. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the motion by the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury, does the Assembly wish to deal with the matter now? HON.

MEMBERS: Agreed. [Motion carried] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 31 Financial Administration Amendment Act, 1984 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill No. 31, the Financial Administration Amendment Act, 1984. This being a money Bill, His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor, having been informed of the contents of this Bill, recommends the same to the Assembly. The main purposes of this Bill, Mr.

Speaker, in addition to technical amendments, are to establish a revolving fund in the Treasury Department, to enable the Controller to apply more effective auditing techniques using statistical sampling meth ods, and to simplify the documentation with regard to trans actions between the government and Crown corporations, [Leave granted; Bill 31 read a first time] Bill 32 Government Land Purchases Amendment Act, 1984 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce a Bill, being the Government Land Purchases Amendment Act, 1984.

The purpose of this Bill is to facilitate purchases of land under this Act by enabling the government to acquire land using mortgages and agreements for sale. [Leave granted; Bill 32 read a first time] Bill 25 Public Health Act MRS. KOPER: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce a Bill, being the Public Health Act. Present public health legislation in Alberta is archaic and overlapping. This Act will incorporate into one Act all the provincial legislation respecting the protection of public health in Alberta. The Acts currently in force would be revised and consolidated under the proposed Public Health Act.

They include the Treatment Services Act, the Nursing Service Act, the Venereal Diseases Prevention Act, the Tuberculosis Act, the Health Unit Act, and the present Public Health Act. This Bill changes the role of the Provincial Board of Health to an advisory body on all matters relating to public health and an appeal body for decisions of local boards. Further, this Bill would update provisions for the control of communicable dis eases, while providing better protection of individual rights for people who are unwilling to voluntarily submit themselves to treatment. Mr.

Speaker, this Bill will also permit greater flex ibility for the appointment of members of local boards of health, as well as increased financial autonomy regarding authority to borrow and retain certain revenues. Because of the complexity of regulations accompanying this Bill and the widespread impact of the review of this Act on other legislation, a transition period is proposed, with the Act to be proclaimed on July 1, 1985.

This Bill represents many years of planning and consultation with authorities in the public health field, and it is an honour to bring it to this Legislature. [Leave granted; Bill 25 read a first time] MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I move that Bill No. 25 be placed on the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'm tabling the 1982-83 annual report of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. WOO: Mr.

Speaker, it is my pleasure this morning to introduce to you, and through you to all members of the Assem bly, 46 grade 6 students from Our Lady of Perpetual Help school, which is located in the constituency of Edmonton Sher wood Park. They are accompanied this morning by their group leader Jim Ziebart, teacher Rocque Richard, and bus driver Mrs. Loretta Foskett. They're seated in the members gallery.

328 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1984 and I ask that they now rise and receive the very warm welcome of this Assembly. MRS. KOPER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you, and through you to the members of our Assembly, members of the Health Unit Association of Alberta, who are here today to observe the proceedings of the House. In the public gallery are association chairman Muriel Abdurahman, executive direc- tor David Parker, George Zaharia, Jean DeChamplain, Nancy Plato, Dr. James Howell, and Dr. Patrick Finnigan, as well as Margaret Friedman. I ask that they rise to receive the recog nition of this House.

MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague Dr. Buck, the Member for Clover Bar, it's my pleasure to introduce some students from his constituency: 43 grade 6 students from the Pope John elementary school in Fort Sas katchewan. They are accompanied by their teachers Mrs. Gibeau and Mr. Al Stewart. They're in the public gallery, and I'd like them to stand and be recognized. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly eight able young men and women between the ages of 17 and 21, from Katimavik.

These people are from Quebec, Ontario, Nova Scotia, and British Columbia. They are doing useful community work in the con stituency of Edmonton Norwood, at the Alberta Avenue Com munity League, Norwood Extended Care, Norwood Community Service Centre, and the Norwood community school. They are accompanied by their group leader Hugh Brown. I now ask them stand and receive the warm welcome of the House. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Unemployment MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct the first set of questions to the Minister of Manpower.

Has the government developed any emergency program to deal with unemployment levels in this province in view of the fact that unemployment went up again, to a startling 12.2 percent in Alberta and 15.1 percent in the city of Edmonton? MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, may I first of all clarify the hon. member's statistics, I am quoting Stats Canada, which I am sure he is, and laying out the caveat that although I am not sure they are totally accurate, they are still the best set of figures we have. Mr.

Speaker, if you look at the situation on a year- to-year basis, unemployment in the province as a whole has gone down, the number of employment opportunities has gone up, and the employment to population ratio has increased. I agree with the hon. member that Edmonton did hit 15 percent. If you analyze the province and its regions, I think you will see that different regions are increasing and others are decreasing at different points in time. There are some positives in it. Five of the industrial sectors have shown year-to-year increases in employment.

Four have shown year-to-year decreases, the construction industry obviously being the one with the most significant decrease. I think we have to realize that the construction component of the work force built up rather dramatically and now has to downsize to a lower growth econ omy. But the economy is still a growth economy, and that's a positive. In more direct response to the hon. member's question, I would remind him of the significant capital construction com ponent of the budget the hon. Provincial Treasurer announced.

I would also suggest that he read yesterday's Hansard to get a more specific understanding of the labour force situation, because he missed the debate we had on unemployment. MR. MARTIN: I would remind the minister that excuses aren't enough for the unemployed in this province. My specific sup plementary question: in view of these most recent figures, will the government continue its policy of laying off public-sector employees and encouraging layoffs, which are only going to add to the unemployment level in this province? MR. ISLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not sure that the totality of that question would be directed to me, so I will simply respond to that which falls under my mandate. I would say very plainly that the government is going to continue to work in co-operation with the private sector to resolve the unemployment situation in this province. I would offer to the hon. member and to the House the fact that if you again analyze on a year-to-year basis, the city of Calgary had a 15 percent unemployment rate at this point in 1983; it has dropped substantially to 12.8, and 19,000 new jobs have been created in that census area.

In addition, on a year-to-year com parison, 17,000 new jobs have been created in what's known as the Calgary region. I would again emphasize that different parts of the province are going to go into and come out of unemployment problems at different points in history. MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. minister, I realize that the hon. Acting Leader of the Opposition embel lished his first question with some unnecessary baggage for the purpose of debate. Consequently it would have been less than fair if the hon. minister hadn't been permitted to deal with it.

But I suggest that that's behind us now and that the supple mentary was directed toward something somewhat different. Perhaps we could now get back to the substance of the sup plementary, if the hon. minister wishes to deal with it further. MR. STEVENS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might supplement the information given by my colleague. Since and immediately prior to the Budget Address of March 27, 168 public service positions have been identified for which abolishment notices have been given. Of that number, 65 employees have been redeployed.

I hope that same kind of effort will continue, as it is the intention of all our colleagues to seek, wherever pos sible, redeployment and retraining for our public service offi cials. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I did not think I would ever hear a government minister bragging in this Assembly about a 12.8 percent unemployment rate in the city of Calgary. My supplementary question to the minister: will the government announce in this session some effective, long-term measures to put Albertans back to work? MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, I am tempted to respond to the debating portion of the question, where certain . . .

MR. SPEAKER: It would appear to me that a question of that nature puts very few limits on the minister's answer. MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't think I stood here and bragged about a 12.8 percent unemployment rate in the city of Calgary. I did attempt to point out to the hon. member opposite

April 6, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 329 that there has been significant improvement in the Calgary area, and that is certainly a plus. If the hon. member looks at unemployment as an indicator of economic activity, he would realize that employment levels are the last indicators that start to move. On a year-to-year basis, we are seeing some positive movement. Granted, we would all like to see it go lower. But we all have to face the realism that certain sections of our labour force must go through a downsizing and an adjusting. In response to the latter part of the gentleman's question, Mr.

Speaker, I think a reading of yesterday's Hansard would give him a significant outline of what this government is doing in both direct and indirect job creation and in co-operation with the private sector. If you wish to give me 20 minutes, sir, I can repeat yesterday's speech. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure the hon. member would be capable of reading it. MR. MARTIN: Yes, I'm quite capable. I am sure it will be very unimpressive again, when there are 15.1 percent unem ployed in this city. My question now is to the Provincial Treasurer.

In view of this unemployment increase in the springtime, when unem ployment generally goes down, does the Treasurer have any plans to publicly revise the statement contained on page 9 of the budget speech, I believe, to the effect that unemployment will remain at last year's levels in 1984? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that statement will still be correct when, in future, we are able to look back over this year.

I think we should bear in mind that in addition to the over $100 million of specific manpower programs which have been announced and initiated by my colleague the Minister of Man power directly to deal with unemployment, such as can be dealt with, there are also in this budget, through a number of areas, some major significant moves with regard to helping the job situation in the province: $3 billion, probably the highest per capita in this country of capital dollars, generating 50,000 man- years of employment.

For example, the changes that are made in royalties at Syncrude will enable greater employment to take place there. The senior citizen home improvement program, one of a large number of government operating programs, will create 4,000 man-years alone. There are man-years of employ ment at two new hospitals in Edmonton and Calgary as well.

Realizing that in the final analysis the private sector will be the entity that will pull and generate jobs in this province, this government is making major efforts, through many parts of the operating and capital budget, to deal as best we can with the situation regarding unemployment. MR. MARTIN: I say to the hon. Treasurer that the engine has stalled and quit because of this government's policies.

My supplementary question is: can the Treasurer advise the Assembly what review was made of the Conference Board predictions that Alberta would be the only province in the country where unemployment would actually increase in 1984 when the fiscal policies announced in the budget speech were developed? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think our prediction contin ues; that is, the employment situation in this province will essentially be at the national average during 1984.

We have to remember as well, though, that there's a very basic strength in the fact that we have the highest level of employment — the number of people who could be employed who are employed — of any province in Canada. That continues month after month after month, showing the basic strength and integrity of the Alberta economy. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I think people are tired of hearing excuses and reasoning like that. MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps we could come to a question. MR.

MARTIN: Has the Provincial Treasurer scheduled any meetings with his counterpart in Manitoba to review initiatives in that province which have led a have-not province to the lowest unemployment in Canada? [interjections] AN HON. MEMBER: Everybody left. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I doubt very much whether Albertans would want to have the employment situation or many other dimensions, political or otherwise, in the province of Manitoba. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. MARTIN: Tell it to the unemployed in this province. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

I believe Alber tans would like to know: is this an example of the upturn in the economy . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. MARTIN: . . . the Provincial Treasurer is talking about? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Just straight out and out unvar nished, undisguised debate. Let's get back to the purpose of the question period, which is to deal with facts. MR. MARTIN: The Premier wants to answer. MR. SPEAKER: Since the hon. member has asked that question and seems to be extremely anxious to get a reaction to it, perhaps we ought to have one. MR. LOUGHEED: There are [four] factors, Mr.

Speaker: num ber one, to reiterate the comment made by the Minister of Manpower that the actual situation is that there are more people employed and the unemployment rate is down from a year ago; number two, to repeat the employment/population ratio; num ber three, to reiterate the strong factors in the budget; and number four, to take the position on a multitude of fronts, as expressed in the Budget Address, of the economic strength of this province. I think there is just no question about it.

This province has the strongest potential of any province in Canada in economic terms and, in my judgment, today has the strongest economic position of any province in Canada. MR. MARTIN: Only in your judgment. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Premier. Certainly the opportunity and potential are here for economic development in this province. The people of the province are waiting for the government's economic plan. In terms of the urgency and the indicators we've had before us today, I think the government should — even prior to the Easter break — introduce that economic plan.

Is that possible, and

330 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1984 has the Premier set a date for the introduction of the short- and long-term economic plans of the Conservative government? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is, as usual, confused with the questions he raised and the statements that have been made. First of all, the economic strategy position is nc»t a short-term plan. The short-term economic plan is reflected in the Budget Address. The economic strategy document is a document that will come out this spring, reflecting on the medium term, and the reference is made in that context in the budget speech.

The position of this government in terms of its economic policy is well set out in the Budget Address itself. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, the Premier can say all he wants. That statement is as deceptive as the budget was. MR. SPEAKER: Order. With great respect to the . . . [inter jections] Would the hon. member just give me a slight moment. We're really getting into budget debate. There has been ample provision made in the arrangements of the House to look alter all the debating anybody wants to do, I assume, in regard to the budget.

I realize there have been some debating answers, but they have not exceeded the degree to which that's been done in the questions. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. In their budget debate, the government made the case that the economic strategy was going to solve some of the unemploy ment problems in this province. In the last . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. [interjection] Order please. [interjection] Order please. Surely the hon. member knows that debating the budget is not a point of order; it's a matter of debate. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary question to the Provincial Treasurer is with regard to the statement in the budget that we're in a period of economic recovery. MR. MARTIN: His nose was growing at the time he said it. MR. R. SPEAKER: Is a period of economic recovery indicated by an increase in unemployment? That seems contradictory. How can the minister continue to make that statement, and is the minister of the same opinion today? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't think they're contra dictory at all.

What we have to remember is that in the boom years of 1980 and '81, there was a massive movement of people from all over Canada to this province. There was an overheating and an overbuilding, especially in the construction area. We have to absorb that overheating and overbuilding. It's happen ing gradually. Most sectors of the Alberta economy are in a recovery phase and mode, for example the oil and gas industry. In construction there was an overbuilding. People have started to leave the province. That's an element of that. So that is going to be reality in the near future. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question.

The Treasurer is the only one saying that, if he gets around the province. AN HON. MEMBER: Facts. MR. MARTIN: His facts, not anybody else's. Does the Treas urer have any indication of how much money it is costing the government of Alberta, directly in the economy, to have an unemployment rate of 12.2 percent? MR. SPEAKER: That certainly would be a matter of opinion. If it were a real question . . . MR. MARTIN: He has a way of figuring it out. MR. SPEAKER: . . . it should go on the Order Paper. It undoubtedly involves some calculation. MR. MARTIN: The Treasurer should know. Go ahead, enlighten us. MR.

SPEAKER: I'm really hesitant to intervene this frequently, but I would hope that what has just gone on here this morning is not going to be considered a precedent for future question periods. The thing is going to get to the point where, because of the complicity of the Speaker, we'll abolish the question period and turn it into debating period. Then I hope we would have proper notice on the Order Paper of the subjects to be debated and an opportunity for all members to enter the debate, as they have when we do have debating periods. Pediatric Hospital Services MR.

MARTIN: I direct my second set of questions to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. Did the minister con sult with the Edmonton Area Hospital Planning Council after the budget announcement of a new acute care hospital for Mill Woods, to determine the effect this would have on the council's hospital priority list? MR. RUSSELL: No, Mr. Speaker, I didn't. It was only within the last two or three weeks that I received their first letter, which I had asked for about a year ago. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Has the minister scheduled any meeting with the planning council to discuss reports that their current view is that the northern Alberta children's hospital should become a much higher prior ity? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, I've been out of Edmonton for the last three days. According to some news reports, the chairman of the Hospital Planning Council apparently gave the opinion that as a result of our budget announcements, perhaps we could look at lower prior ities, including the future children's hospital. I haven't had an opportunity to speak with Dr.

Cameron and see what it was he said. In fact the most current news I have from them is the letter they gave me, which I forwarded to the Northern Alberta Children's Hospital Foundation. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. Last Monday the minister assured the Assembly: "when a children's hospital is needed in Edmonton, it will be built". Given the current posi tion of the hospital planning council, does the minister have an estimate as to when he might make an announcement regard ing a children's hospital for northern Alberta? MR. RUSSELL: No, Mr. Speaker, I don't.

I believe what the hon. member is losing here is the perspective of time. The Mill Woods hospital that is proceeding this summer was announced and approved some six or seven years ago. It's going to be

April 6, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 331 three or four years before the projects announced in this year's budget are completed. I believe the hon. member is aware of the fiscal capacity and the cash-flow challenges that are in the budget for large projects of this nature. So if the hon. member will permit me time to check and see what the current position of the area planning council is, perhaps I can give him a better and more reasoned answer. But at the moment I find myself merely reply ing in the House to alleged statements made to the media on this matter. MR. MARTIN: Fair enough. I'll ask a supplementary question.

Does the minister have available to him any studies which conclude — and I'm going back to Hansard—that construction of a new children's hospital would not attract pediatric subspe- cialists to northern Alberta? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe I said that. I said that the building alone would not attract specialists. Cer tainly we realize that it's the climate and environment and programming and funding, and ongoing funding, that is impor tant to the establishment of a medical and scientific commununity.

We're certainly finding that through the establishment of the medical heritage trust foundation, and of course we know the dramatic response there has been to that. It's certainly not buildings alone, and we recognize that. To recapitulate, our dilemma is that the pediatric facilities that are available in Edmonton are used at approximately 50 percent of their capacity, and there are other, more pressing needs insofar as hospital needs are concerned, by way of upgrading and expansion of acute facilities and the establish ment of auxiliary facilities, which is going to take us at least three years to do.

As I mentioned earlier, we don't have a bottomless barrel of finances available to do these things. In the circumstances, I believe we are proceeding along the right course. MR. MARTIN: I could give the minister some suggestions as to where to get that money. But the specific supplementary question is, will the new acute care facility in Mill Woods increase the surplus of pediatric beds the minister referred to in his reply last Monday? MR. RUSSELL: I would like some time to check that, Mr. Speaker, but I believe it will. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Last spring, I believe, the minister received a consultant's study on cardiovascular services by EHE Limited from Ottawa, which stated that a comprehensive cardiac care facility was needed in Edmonton. What specific response does the government have to this recommendation, especially in view of the recent loss of a neonatologist and a pediatric intensivist from the University of Alberta? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad to have that question, especially from a member of the party opposite.

With their version of medicare, if we follow their policies, we'll certainly drive any skilled or interested or bright light in medicine out of this country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. RUSSELL: As the hon. member is aware, the funding is available; the space and facilities are available in the beautiful new first wing of the Mackenzie Health Sciences Centre. Unfor tunately these people are rare and hard to find, and represent a variety of personality types.

It is going to take a long time to recruit those specialists, but I'm encouraged by the medical and scientific community that is being established in Edmonton and Calgary around our teaching universities and schools of medicine. Beyond that, there is not much more I can say. The point I'm trying to make, Mr. Speaker, is that the operating funds and the environment are there. Whether or not a complete, separate, identifiable children's hospital would add to the attractiveness under present circumstances is really an unknown factor. MR. MARTIN: Supplementary question.

I would remind the minister opposite, it's his . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If the hon. member . . . MR. MARTIN: I'm just referring to his . . . MR. SPEAKER: That's fine. But if the hon. member has reminders to give, he can give them in debate. If he wants to get some facts, he is entitled to ask for them now. But when he asks for things like studies, he's going to get some pretty comprehensive answers. MR. MARTIN: Comprehensive answer. It's not what this party on the opposite side is doing. They're in power.

My question to the minister: because they've been leaving already — that's the point; under this government they've been leaving — what is the minister specifically doing to bring some of these people back? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, we've got a physical plant near- ing completion across the river that's going to be worth about half a billion dollars when it's finished, if the hon. member would care to go and look at it. MR. MARTIN: I have. MR. RUSSELL: We've got budget allocations for health care spending higher on a per capita basis than any of the other provinces. We've established . . . MR.

MARTIN: But you have overruns. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member doesn't like to hear this list. But he asked for it, so he'd better sit back. It's a long one. MR. MARTIN: It's because you're over budget that you're spending so much, Dave. MR. RUSSELL: The medical heritage trust fund, with it's $300 million and its unique legislation, is attracting attention around the world and, as I said earlier, bringing in groups in the medical and scientific community that are really most encouraging.

Last but not least, in a major way this government is the only one that's standing up on its hind feet and trying to maintain the quality of health care for Canadians and the professionalism of the medical society, and not fall into the trap of going for state medicine, as the hon. member's party is doing. MR. MARTIN: The saviour of medicare over there. MR. RUSSELL: So I believe, Mr. Speaker, we can say that in all ways — by way of investment, research, operating sup

332 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1984 port, capital construction, and encouragement to the medical community — Alberta stands second to no jurisdiction in Canada. [interjections] Representations to Government MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is with regard to a meeting between the Alberta Urban Muni cipalities Association and the Premier and the Executive Coun cil. Has the Premier reconsidered his position with regard to holding that meeting? MR. LOUGHEED: No, Mr. Speaker. The decisions within our government party are made by our caucus.

We've established a process in which delegations meet with our caucus. The Minister of Municipal Affairs may wish to expand upon it, but we've had communication with them on that basis. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Premier. In light of the budgetary decision that a zero percent increase be given to the municipal bodies of the prov ince — and I think that's a very serious decision with regard to the municipalities — under those conditions, did the Premier reconsider the decision and consider meeting with the muni cipalities? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, I don't relate the two ques tions. But perhaps in terms of discussion with the municipal organizations, I could refer the question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. KOZIAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to supplement the answer with respect to both areas. First of all the matter of the forum for exchange of ideas between the Alberta Urban Muni cipalities Association and the provincial government. The AUMA and all the member municipalities have always had the doors of all the departments open to them for a one-on-one discussion on any matters that concern them.

We will continue to provide that opportunity to respond to the needs of the muni cipalities in this province. Secondly, the question of the association as a whole, as represented by its executive, meeting with the counterparts, elected to the Legislature, from the government caucus. That matter was discussed during the course of a fairly lengthy recent meeting with the executive of the association. At that time some interesting proposals were raised with the association, which they've undertaken to consider and provide me with their advice at a subsequent time. The matter dealing with the level of grants.

As the hon. member is aware and as the estimates will show — we can discuss that further as we get into the discussion of the estimates of the Department of Municipal Affairs — provision has been made for an increase of 2 percent over and above the level of last year's grants, in order to accommodate inequities that have developed in the system over time. I might add that in respond- ing to that with a new formula and in providing for some movement toward correction of inequities, we have received nothing but positive responses from the municipalities. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question, more in the general sense with regard to this policy of government. Is it then the policy of the Premier not to meet with other provincial groups? This group, the Alberta Urban Municipalities Association, is not an exception. It is the government's policy that any provincial organization meets with the caucus committee. Is that the approach the government uses in all those cases? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, that's right. We've had that since about 1979.

That's simply because we're of the view that the structure of our government is that the government caucus is the ultimate decision-making process. We therefore feel that delegations on a province-wide basis should meet with the caucus group that is primarily making the recommendations to full caucus. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. In terms of debriefing those caucus groups, what is the process the Premier uses to become informed as to the attitudes of an organization and, as well, to give feedback through to that organization?

Does the feedback then proceed from the caucus committee, or does it come from the Premier's office in some cases, in terms of certain specific instances? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, it really goes two ways. It depends on the issue and the circumstances. A response to the delegation can come from the caucus committee chairman that is responsible or from the minister that is responsible. It would depend on the circumstances. It would be one way or the other. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to the Premier.

In terms of unusual circumstances, where the Premier sees there is a prob lem — let's say the oil industry is in difficulty. In terms of establishing those meetings, does the Premier usually initiate those kinds of meetings in his own personal time because he sees they are of a high priority, or are there instances when certain organizations may have an audience with the Premier? MR. LOUGHEED: I object, and I'm sure the hon. leader didn't mean anything by the word "audience".

The meetings I would conduct would be meetings that would be involved with groups, and they would be groups that would have a particular special circumstance involved. We work through a caucus system or ministerial responsibility. If there are some special circumstances from time to time in the various portfolios, I would become involved — not always through the organizations, though. I might be involved in terms of trying to get input and taking the initiative to get input from people who are not part of organized groups but are reflective of the realities in the sector that may be involved. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, certainly my questions are in terms of trying to understand the process that is being used by government. Could the Premier give some more specific instances when groups had special kinds of problems occur, and the Premier took the initiative to either intercede or create some kind of communication between his office and that respec tive group? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, that's a very skillful question, but not one that I would respond to. By responding to it I therefore give, perhaps at least to the hon. member, the false impression of some problem that may not be there. MR.

MARTIN: You give them an audience. VIA Rail Services MR. SZWENDER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Tourism and Small Business. I was wondering if the minister could indicate if he has made any representation to the federal government from his department with respect to restoring VIA Rail service between Edmonton and Jasper, and eventually to Vancouver? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, we initially started with presen tation back in 1981 — I believe it was August 1981 — to the

April 6, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 333 hon. Mr. Pepin. That came right after the federal government had in fact cut the service to the west coast. At that particular point, we tried to impress upon the federal minister that we would like to see the service reinstated; that they should look at and consider rescheduling as one of the priorities; and the introduction of new equipment that might include bi-level or double-decker equipment as well, so the passenger service could in fact be considered a flagship rather than what it was. MR. SZWENDER: A supplementary.

Could the minister indi cate when the most recent contact was made with federal rep resentatives? MR. ADAIR: I believe it was within the last couple of months, when officials from the Department of Tourism and Small Busi ness as well as the Department of Economic Development met with representatives of the federal minister's office to discuss our concerns and suggestions. MR. SZWENDER: A supplementary. Could the minister indi cate if anyone from his department, or the minister himself, has made any representation before the task force established by the federal government in this matter? MR.

ADAIR: To this point we have not, Mr. Speaker, although tomorrow I will be speaking at the symposium sponsored by the Jasper Chamber of Commerce, at which the task force will be present. I should point out that we were asked to be a member of the task force and we chose to decline, primarily because the province of Alberta as a government has always attempted to make its presentations direct, government to government and minister to minister. MR. SZWENDER: A further supplementary.

Could the min ister indicate if he has any information as to the economic impact the elimination of the rail service has had on tourism and small business in this province? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, the best way to respond to that is that after the first year of no service, when the federal government cut the VIA Rail service to the west coast, it was determined that the figure was around $5 million for the com munity of Jasper alone. We haven't got a dollar figure on the total package of what it has done to tourism.

But we certainly have the impact it had on Pacific Rim tourist opportunities and the fact that by the service being cut without consultation with us or with the tour operators — and by habit, they have been booking two to three years in advance — we lost a great deal of respect and trust with the Pacific Rim as an opportunity for those tourists to come to Canada, and particularly to Alberta. MR. SZWENDER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate whether the provincial government has provided any funding to communities which have been affected by loss of the rail service? MR.

ADAIR: Yes we did, Mr. Speaker, but I'm not sure exactly what the final count was. If you recall, the Jasper Chamber of Commerce was involved in an injunction to have the service restored. The government of Alberta assisted, along with some contributions, I understand, from a number of the communities along the railway, including the city of Edmonton. I believe our contribution toward that presentation to the various courts on the injunction was around $30,000. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 6. Moved by Mr. Hyndman:

Be it resolved that the Assembly, pursuant to

section 6(4.1) of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund Act, authorizes, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1985, the making of invest ments under

section 6(1)(

c) of that Act in: (

i) the Alberta Agricultural Development Corporation in an amount not to exceed $190,000,000 in aggregate; (ii) the Alberta Opportunity Company in an amount not to exceed $45,000,000 in aggregate; (iii) the Alberta Housing Corporation in an amount not to exceed $50,000,000 in aggregate; (iv) the Alberta Home Mortgage Corporation in an amount not to exceed $120,000,000 in aggregate. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe I need make remarks at length regarding this motion, which is essentially self-explanatory.

The issue here is essentially whether the Leg islature wishes the activities of these four Crown corporations to continue; whether the Legislature wishes to see the services and programs for beginning farmers, small-business men, and senior citizens, for example, continue through the 1984-85 fiscal year. This resolution comes forward at this time by reason of an amendment last year to the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund Act, the genesis of which was in the Auditor General's report of 1982.

It provides for even further review by the Legislature of the activities and potential future spending of these four various Crown corporations. With regard to details, I refer members to Appendix C of the Budget Address, which sets forth in very considerable detail the various objectives these four Crown corporations seek to carry forward in this fiscal year, using the moneys which are the subject matter of this resolution. [Motion carried] 4. Moved by Mr. Hyndman:

Be it resolved that the Assembly approve in general the fiscal policies of the government. [Adjourned debate April 4: Mrs. Embury] MRS. EMBURY: Mr. Speaker, I too would like to address a few remarks to the Provincial Treasurer's budget, and may I congratulate him on a budget that I believe is certainly in tune with the times of restraint. It's a very fine budget, one the constituents of Calgary North West will support. Since I was elected to this Assembly in 1979, the population of the constituency of Calgary North West has nearly doubled, from approximately 18,000 in 1979 to 27,000 in 1982 and 33,000 in 1983.

As these statistics indicate, most of that growth occurred in the period between 1979 and 1982. In spite of the downturn in the economy, home building has been taking place in two of my communities, primarily Hawkwood and Scenic Acres. In Hawkwood the major land developer is Melcor, with about 35 home builders. In the past six months, there have been over 100 home starts in Hawkwood. In Scenic Acres, Nu- West is the major land developer. As many hon. members will recall, my continuing interest over my years as an MLA has been people programs.

Therefore I was extremely pleased to see that one of the highlights of the

334 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1984 budget is maintenance of quality people programs through con tinuation of one of the highest per capita health, education, and social service grant levels in Canada. This clearly demonstrates the government's commitment to people programs. I was extremely pleased — and frankly, I must admit, very surprised — to see the increase in the budget for our very popular home care program. I realized that the five-year pro gram commitment is over and, in view of the restraint program of this government, I really did not think it would be at all possible to extend or expand this program.

So it was a delight for me, and I know the people in Calgary will very much appreciate the amount of money that will now be put into this program. It will rise by 55 percent, to over $28 million. As all members of the Legislature are very aware, other programs are all those we have for our senior citizens. These are second to none in Canada, and they will continue. Further to that, I want to mention the program for Alberta widows and widowers of limited means, between the ages of 55 and 64.

These people are also eligible for all the benefits provided to our senior citizens — again, a truly unique program for Alber tans. I would like to spend just a few moments primarily dis cussing education and the funding of our educational system in Alberta. Calgarians, like all Albertans, feel very strongly about the quality of education, in view of recent discussions on education funding. The provincial government holds edu cation as a top priority, and we have one of the best systems in Canada, if not the world. The evidence clearly supports my view.

The budget states: For basic education this year, the government will budget $1.2 billion, an expenditure among the highest per capita in Canada. Secondly, Basic operating grants to school boards will amount to $674 million, providing the same per pupil support as last year. Additional funding of nearly $20 million will be available for the unique learning needs of handicapped and gifted children and for other special programs. Mr. Speaker, I think it has to be understood that this year the Department of Education has a new emphasis to education funding, one which focusses on results.

The education system has shifted its focus from what goes into the system to what is coming out of the system. I'm very pleased to be a member of the education caucus committee, under the capable direction and chairmanship of the Member for St. Albert. There are many programs and policies that we will be studying and looking at in the near future. It is a privilege for me to be a member of that committee. Alberta's per capita investment in basic education, both at the provincial level and on a combined provincial/local basis, is among the highest in Canada, as I have just pointed out.

Alberta's per pupil investment in education is similarly among the highest in Canada. Alberta's teachers are the best-paid teaching force in Canada. In the typical range, an Alberta teacher earns 5.6 percent more than a comparable teacher in the next highest paid jurisdiction, Saskatchewan. As I mentioned, Mr. Speaker, this year there will be an increased emphasis on monitoring and evaluating education results, both by school jurisdictions and by Alberta Education.

I certainly agree with the Minister of Education: we should show our concern about education by investing in areas that will demonstrate the quality of results. I would like to commend the teachers who teach in the schools in the constituency of Calgary North West. They are doing a superb job, are very highly motivated, work very well together, and have the support of the parents in the different communities that make up Calgary North West. One of the unique programs we have in the Ranchlands community is the Ranchlands community school. I'm very proud to be wearing their community school button today.

Last night they had a very unique program, and I was very pleased that the hon. Member for Calgary Foothills went to the school to represent me and the Minister of Education. As members of the Legislature understand, this is the school the Member for Calgary Foothills was principal of. She was delighted to be invited to the school program last night and to see that the excellent programs that were initiated under her leadership are continuing.

In fact, in speaking to me, the member stated that there was even more enthusiasm for those programs under the capable leadership of the principal and all the teachers in that school. As most members realize, one of the advantages of a com munity school is the participation of parents in that program. I think members will shortly be receiving a very brief brief, submitted by the Ranchlands Community School Advisory Council to all members of the Legislature. I hope they will take time to read this input from the community school asso ciation. Naturally they are concerned about continued funding.

They have had assurances from the Minister of Education that he is very, very supportive of this program. So at this time I certainly can assure the Ranchlands Community School Advi sory Council that we will do all in our power to ensure that their funding continues. Another aspect of education I would like to take just a minute and speak about is the day care program. On February 4 this year, I had the honour to attend the first graduating class of a unique project whereby day care workers received an educa tional program on the job.

The roots of this project began in Calgary with the Day Care Society of Alberta, a provincial organization which was organized in 1968. The pilot project began in 1983. As I mentioned, the purpose of the project was to provide training to day care workers. But the uniqueness of this program is that it is an apprenticeship program, or one that allows the students to work on the job yet also receive their education. Achievement and progress were measured by successful per formance in 50 areas. Initial funding came from the Department of Social Services and Community Health under the minister of the time, Mr.

Bob Bogle. The project ran for 10 months and concluded in December 1983. A very positive program evaluation of this pilot project was held in January 1984. In closing my remarks and offering support to this excep tional budget because I know it will be so well received in the constituency of Calgary North West, I would like to reiterate the basic objectives of the budget as outlined by the hon. Pro vincial Treasurer when he introduced the budget in the Leg islature.

Of course the prime objectives are: — to support a basically strong economy that is on the mend and to reinforce the recovery that will take us to sustainable growth; — to make government operations trimmer, leaner, and more efficient; I can really state that I'm very, very proud of all that has been done in that area. It needs to have a word of caution injected here.

We realize that our constituents want more and more government support, and they have to realize that if we're going to be able to balance our budget and trim our operations, we're going to have to consider priorities and be very, very careful about adding new programs or expenditures. Another objective is: — to reduce the gap between expenditure and revenue

April 6, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 335 by dealing responsibly with the fiscal realities facing Alberta; I know this is very evident to my constituents. Another objec tive is: — to adopt a businesslike yet sensitive approach in reducing government expenditure and manpower; I think I have already given an example of that. We are trying to reduce our government expenditures, yet we are able to add more money to such an important program as home care. We again want to maintain the high level of support for our existing people programs.

We want: — to support employment by reinforcing an economic climate conducive to private-sector investment and by continuing job creation programs, manpower training initiatives, and a [very] large capital budget. It is my pleasure to speak to this Budget Address by our Provincial Treasurer, and I urge all members to support it. MRS. FYFE: Mr. Speaker, this is indeed a challenging time to be in government and in public office. We've come through a decade of enormous advances in technology. It's a time of opportunity.

We've come through a time when revenues were in excess of the actual requirements of government, when the demand for more and greater services continued to grow and grow. The population developed in all areas of our province. Inflation increased. There was continual demand for new serv ices and government involvement. That was the mark of the 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s. But a number of things happened that changed that spiralling inflationary cycle we were in. The people of the United States elected a new president who attempted to implement policies that would curb inflation.

When interest rates shot beyond 20 percent, most of us who were not solely investors wondered if the cure for inflation was worse than the disease itself. In our country, Canada, our federal leader and a few of his cabinet members agreed to some medicine for Canada's sagging economy. That medicine, which turned out to be pretty bad indeed — the national energy program — was designed to give Canadians a greater share of revenue at the expense of one so- called wealthy province and multinational oil companies. What was perceived in the '70s to be a shortage of crude oil became a world surplus in the '80s.

In addition, natural gas markets became increasingly more difficult to find. A world wide recession has had a significant impact on proposed world scale oil sands and petrochemical projects that are dependent upon international markets. Over a number of years, our Premier warned that Alberta could not be isolated from national and international economic conditions. As a consequence of these conditions, we felt the waves of change. We saw unemployment hit heights that were unparalleled over the last 40 years. We saw unemployment hit our own families. We saw business operations and opportunities shrink.

But through this period there has been a rethinking of priorities, not just by governments and businesses but by you and me. Planning and growth of the '70s hit the realities of the '80s. The inflationary psychology was checked, whereby we saw that new attitudes developed. There is a greater awareness of the worth of a job, a greater awareness of being able to do things for ourselves, a new determination to succeed and to overcome the economic realities that we face, and a greater understanding that we cannot continue to take out of the economy more than we put into it.

It is in this area that I'm perhaps a little critical of our education system, which in my opinion does not ade quately do the job of teaching the elements of our economic structure. What happens when we spend more than we have? In our own immediate families, we know that if we spend more than we have over a period of time, we face personal bankruptcy. In a business, if you keep spending more than you take in, it's receivership. But what happens with governments who spend more than they take in over a period of time?

There have been accumulated deficits at our federal level for which now, in 1984, we're paying nearly one-quarter of every tax dollar only to service the debt. That does not pay the capital of that debt. How long can this cycle of deficit spending continue within our country? And what is the cost of this deficit spending, not just for taxpayers and residents of our country in 1984 but for our children and for those that follow us? This is a critical issue that in my opinion must be communicated and must be under stood by our population.

While in many ways our population has been taken in by the psychology that we can continue to give services for which they will not have to pay, there has to be a day of reckoning. The turndown in our economy has been recognized by many as exactly that process we had to face. We could not continue on with that inflationary spiral that took us to new and greater deficits with greater levels of service, without a contribution by you and I who receive these benefits. Over the last number of months since our fall session, I've spoken to a variety of groups and organizations.

I have said we must be more realistic about the demands for government involvement for goods and services. The 1984 Budget Address says on page 7: But a province's fundamental economic strength is deter mined by the level of economic activity it can sustain relative to the size of its population and work force. In this Budget Address, Mr. Speaker, it is this economic activity that produces our goods and services that is set out in page after page of the highest level of per capita spending of any province in Canada.

This activity for goods and services, not only in government spending but the activity within our prov ince, means that employment and taxation are provided to sup port government's ability to provide those services. As has been said many times before in this Legislature, governments do not create wealth, governments spend wealth.

I have recently been told by at least one person — and I'm sure there are a few others in our province who think it — that Alberta and Canada as a whole have a reasonably low rate of taxation compared to many other countries in the developed world, that we can easily afford to raise taxes to provide more government services for the people within our province and our country. Is it really so simple? If every level of government raises taxes and spends more, obviously this affects the price of goods and services, which further fuels inflation and makes our export of goods less competitive in a world market.

If we cannot control today's expenditures which affect our ability to compete, we will have less expansion of our tax base and of our economy, which will seriously impact on future revenue for public services. If we recognize this challenge, if we work together in accepting that static wages can help all of us and our economy, not only today but in future years by reducing expectations, we have a chance to be part of the mainstream economic flow. In other words, we may have short-term pain, which will be long-term economic gain for the people of this province. This means some difficult challenges.

This morning, Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer to the two large areas of expend itures, those of health care and education. We have some very

336 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1984 tough communications, some very tough economic circum stances to face in both these areas. Firstly in the field of education, there is very little evidence to show that the greater and greater dollars that have been put into the education system over the last few years have provided a greater degree of effectiveness of our education system. I don't mean to sound overly critical of our education system, because I think that on the whole we have an excellent system.

We have some of the finest facilities anywhere in the world, a highly trained teaching staff, levels of academic excellence that can compete anywhere. However, there have been prob lems identified within our education system. In my opinion those problems will not necessarily be solved by more economic stimulation. I think greater dollars in the system are not going to be any more effective this year than they were in previous years.

I believe what is needed is a change in attitude on the parts of families, of the children who attend these institutions, and of the professions involved in education, whereby the home supports what happens in the school. There are many teachers who demonstrate their willingness to communicate and to work with families. Over at least the last decade, there seems to be an erosion of the support of many families to get behind the teacher to try to solve the problems that face the individual student. That doesn't cost money; that is an attitude of which we should all be aware.

That is something for which we all have to share some responsibility. There are so many areas of change and review going on within education in 1984, and I will not try to summarize the list this morning but will only highlight a couple of areas that are particularly significant. Firstly, a review of the secondary school program has just been initiated. This is an extremely important and significant review for those who have children in the secondary school program, for those employers who will be hiring these young people coming out of our secondary school systems, and for our province as a whole.

It is essential that we review the programs our young people are taking, the type of curriculum they're following, to ensure that these young people come out of our secondary schools and into our post- secondary facilities or into the work force with a practical educational background that will equip them to compete in a changing world. We know the only thing that is consistent in these rapidly moving times is the fact that there is change. That change is happening so quickly in a communication society where we see news reports from around the world instantaneously.

A massive amount of information is being compiled daily. Those of us who went to school a few years ago are easily outdated in a very short period of time if we don't try to keep up with this changing information society we live in. So it's imperative that we review the system that has been in place for so many years without really very much change in the basic structure. As part of this, a second review will be a review of the entire School Act. Is it appropriate to have 12 years? Is it appropriate to have students enter school at six and maintain their attendance until they are at least 16?

These are standards that have been in place for generations. They are standards that should be reviewed. In addition to these two major studies and reviews that will be going on — the School Act and the secondary review, which incidentally will be requesting input from residents across this entire province; it is not just a review of a system by a few people or a few professionals who work within the field; this will be a review that will require input from every interested person within our province — there are other concerns in edu cation, such as the growth of private schools.

This has stim ulated a fair amount of controversy and debate, particularly in certain parts of our province. There is a philosophical difference between those who feel their children should have the privilege of attending a school that operates outside the public school system, a system which emphasizes a particular philosophy or religion, and those who feel it weakens the public school system to allow private schools to continue. A task force is currently studying the private school question and will be making rec ommendations within a two-year period.

This review allows any interested persons in our province to make submissions to the task force regarding this question that is important to edu cation as a whole. In addition to the major efforts that have been made in these three areas, there are a variety of task forces and discussion papers that are presently ongoing. There is an evaluation within our schools of students, teachers, and school systems as a whole.

There have been discussion papers distributed in a wide variety of areas, and reports on issues such as computers and library services within our schools, to name just several from a long list of special areas. In addition to these efforts that are going on at the basic education level, we also have to be concerned about the chal lenges and difficulties in our postsecondary institutions. This budget is sensitive to the needs of surging enrollments at our universities and postsecondary institutions. The budget pro vides an additional $26 million to reflect these increased enroll ments.

We have difficult questions to face within our province. But we are still much better off than many other provinces that have had to seriously cut back in university programs and enrollments, and have had to reduce their budgets in a very dramatic way. We have problems to face in our postsecondary institutions in Alberta, but we have fewer problems than many other jurisdictions. We may have to work within restrictions, within limited space, for a period of time. But we have a government that is sensitive to these needs and a budget that reflects that sensitivity. Mr.

Speaker, I would now like to refer to some of the issues and concerns related to our health care system, which in my opinion is one of the finest in the entire world. Our health care system in Alberta is basically divided into three large areas. It is a complex system of funding that is difficult to communicate as a whole to the residents of our province. Because of the way we term the categories in health services, it is difficult to com prehend exactly what all this hassling is.

What does it mean when the federal government says they are supporting health services to the same extent as last year and the provincial government says that's not true? It's complicated for the indi vidual to understand the system. The health system is basically divided into three major categories, the first one being services by practitioners. The practitioners include physicians, podiatrists, physiotherapists, optometrists, and a host of medically trained people who pro vide treatment and service to the patients and residents of our province. We have some of the finest trained medical people anywhere.

These people spend a lot of years at hard work and training. When they graduate and go into the work field, they expect to have a reasonable reward for the years they sacrificed to achieve that level of service. So the first part of our health care system, is what I would call the practitioner or the medical service category of programs. The second one is the services that are provided by hospitals. These include our active treatment and auxiliary hospitals, and nursing home care.

We have a unique challenge in Canada, and particularly in Alberta with a small population and a mas sive area, to try to supply services. We have a unique challenge to provide top-grade service over these very large expanses.

April 6, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 337 The services by hospitals include in-patient services; special ized referral centres which provide very specific care, such as the cancer hospitals or the cardiac rehabilitation centre; the children's facilities, such as the southern Alberta children's hospital in Calgary; and the general rehabilitation hospitals. We have a communication system with interhospital transfer, which allows a patient requiring specialized treatment to move to another hospital with ease and care. The third level of medical service relates to services by others.

These are the programs which relate outside hospitals and doctors' offices. These are services such as home care, which delivers health care services to those who are at home, or preventive health clinics or air ambulance for remote com munities within our province. The home care budget was dou bled in this 1984 document presented by our Provincial Treasurer, which in my opinion is a very significant announce ment. The development of home care and those services outside our very expensive in-hospital treatment facilities can only con tribute to a more cost-effective health care system.

If we can provide alternatives such as home care, additional auxiliary beds, or nursing home space, then in all likelihood we will be able to reduce the demand for increasing in-patient hospital care. It is important that we continue to develop those services. Once again, this budget has been sensitive to the planning and growing needs of our population, which is also an aging popu lation.

Another program that would be included in this third level of service is the aids to daily living program, which covers all age groups and brings expertise, assistance, and equipment to those that require them — equipment for patients such as those suffering from diabetes; wheelchairs, walkers, and canes for the handicapped; and side-stream inhalators for those with lung problems.

I discussed this aids to daily living program not too long ago with a specialist within the city of Edmonton who said: please pass on to your government and the people you work with that the aids to daily living program has been the most effective program in all of Alberta in keeping people alive. He said: I mean this sincerely; day after day I have seen people who would not only be worse off but many who would not have survived without the aids to daily living program.

I think this is important feedback and important communication, that we recognize how important these support services are to keep ing people in their own homes, keeping people independent, and keeping individuals in a life-style that will support them with the most dignity possible.

In addition to these three major categories of health care I have outlined, there are supplementary programs such as Blue Cross, which provides supplementary coverage for drugs, for senior citizens, and for preferred accommodation in hospital; and extended health care benefit programs designed to give added assistance to our senior citizens. Not only does it pay the health care premiums but it adds services for eyeglasses, dentures, hearing aids, medical equipment, and supplies. These three major categories of programs I have spoken about are all people-service programs.

In addition to these three categories are major construction programs. We have probably had the most ambitious capital construction program I am aware of anywhere in the world. This capital construction program has benefitted a vast variety of communities within Alberta. The city of St. Albert, which is part of the Sturgeon hospital unit, is a beneficiary in receiving a new facility that will double the size of the existing hospital facility, which has been dramatically needed and well used, and which has a top reputation as one of the finest caring facilities of any hospital in our province.

The capital construction budget also contributes to that con cern each of us worry and think about, and have endeavoured to deal with in this Budget Address and in planning — that of employment. The capital projects program within Hospitals and Medical Care has contributed significantly to bettering employ ment conditions in this province. The second area I'd like to touch on, outside the three major service programs, is the medical research foundation. I'm sure all members have at least taken a cursory glance at this report, the triennial report that was distributed just a few weeks ago.

For those of you who have not read this report, it is one of the most exciting and interesting documents I have read. What a challenge and what success that within three years we have attracted worldwide scientists to our province. The small prov ince of Alberta, with a little over 2 million people, is attracting worldwide scientists, because medical people know they can come here for financial assistance not only for their salaries and projects but to provide equipment for their research pro grams.

It sets direction for future years, and I think this is one of the most exciting areas that we can be very proud of in the province of Alberta. I would like to think everyone in our province had an opportunity to read this report, which provides hope for so many who are concerned about diseases and medical condi tions. If Alberta, even in a small way, contributes to the success in finding some solutions to these medical problems, this pro gram will be worth while and a legacy for Albertans for many years to come. I understand, Mr.

Speaker, that I have gone on a little bit longer than I had intended to as far as time. So I think I will save some of my remarks for estimates and simply conclude by saying we are fortunate to be in Alberta. We're fortunate to live in a province where we have a responsible government, one that had the foresight to establish the Heritage Savings Trust Fund some years ago, one which was prepared to say no instead of yes to every concern that came along. In 1984 we have $1.5 billion that is providing us with the level of service we enjoy today.

In 1976, '77, '78, '79, and '80, if there had been more yeses to demands for services, we wouldn't be in this position today. We're fortunate to live in a province that has a careful balance. The Provincial Treasurer has been sensitive to unem ployment concerns. He has brought in a high capital budget which will sustain work levels within our province, will main tain the highest per capita level of service in our country, and reflects the forward and careful planning that has gone into this government over the last 13 years. In conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, I commend the Provincial Treasurer for this budget that is sensible, responsible, and appropriate for 1984. MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure to stand . . . MR. SPEAKER: I hesitate to interrupt the hon. minister, but might we just momentarily revert to Introduction of Special Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. APPLEBY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I apol ogize to the hon. minister for having interrupted his remarks. We have with us this morning a group of grade 6 students who have come to us from St.

Mary school in Westlock in the Athabasca constituency. With them is their teacher Mr. Terry Gerling, and some adults, parent volunteers Joyce Nadeau and Mr. Gerald Mitchell and their bus driver Robin Campbell. They

338 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1984 are in the members gallery, and I'd ask them to stand now and be welcomed to the Assembly. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (continued) MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I certainly don't mind being inter rupted for any introduction of young people who have come and taken the time to watch what takes places in this Assembly, and doubly so when it comes from the constituency of Atha basca. I grew up in the town of Athabasca and played baseball in Westlock, on occasion winning a game, on occasion losing a game, and on occasion getting thrown out of a game. That's the way things go in life. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to spend some time talking about the budget from my position as the MLA for the Peace River constituency and to confirm my support for the Provincial Treasurer and the budget he brought down March 27, and maybe take some time to talk about a few items that relate to that constituency. At the same time, I also want to comment a bit on some of the projects I'm involved with as Minister of Tourism and Small Business. If by chance my enthusiasm should carry me past my time, I'm sure you'll let me know directly.

I can start by indicating the balance there is in the budget that was presented by our Provincial Treasurer, a balance of people services or social programs and of capital works pro- grams which relate directly to jobs. In my mind, the direction indicated was moving back to the private sector as much as possible in all departments possible. From my position as Min ister of Tourism and Small Business, Mr. Provincial Treasurer, I'm pleased with your direction. I think it's important that we re-emphasize a number of things that were stated earlier in the budget.

I don't think it bears repeating probably thousands of times — items like no new taxes and no increases in existing taxes. The capital budget of $1.7 billion relates to a good number of projects, and I'm going to digress on occasion to some of them that specifically relate to the constituency of Peace River. For a number of reasons, I'm pleased to see that the Minister of Transportation has seen fit to continue with the paving of Highway 58 from west of Rainbow Lake to High Level. The Rainbow Lake oil field is one of the major contributors to the coffers of the province of Alberta.

And it should never be forgotten that if the money comes from there, we should put some of it back there. So the work is going on. MRS. CRIPPS: Drayton Valley too. MR. ADAIR: And Drayton Valley too. That's after we finish the ones in Peace River. Highway 58 has been a road that has been of some con sternation to a good number of us in the area, Mr. Speaker, primarily because it was initially a licence of occupation — very narrow, very dusty, and on occasion very wet. I can recall that a number of years ago, after 11 straight days of rain, we lost about 12 miles of the road. It just disappeared.

Of course that facilitated some upgrading much faster than we had antic ipated. Last year a

section of that road was paved from High Level west toward Rainbow Lake. I'm really pleased to see that this year's project will be the second portion of that, starting from the Comet airstrip, which is the

section out by Rainbow Lake, going east to Susa Creek. On behalf of my constituents, I certainly thank you for that. There are a number of other projects in the road area, Mr. Speaker, that are most important to us because the constituency I represent is an extremely large one where the distances between communities is much greater than almost any other area in the province. I speak of: from Peace River to Manning, 60 miles; from Peace River to High Level, 186 miles; from High Level to Rainbow Lake, 87 miles; from High Level to Fort Vermillion, 58 miles; from High Level to Zama City, 100 miles.

Of course that's halfway through the constituency. From there you go on to Meander River, Steen River, Indian Cabins, and the Northwest Territories. I should also point out that if you're travelling as minister of tourism, the road is paved from the Northwest Territories boundary right down to the U.S. boundary at the south of the province, one of the few roads in Canada that is paved from north to south. A number of overlaying projects are in place on the Mack enzie Highway. It's really a trade route, Mr. Speaker. It's not necessarily one that would be considered a tourist road.

There are many, many trucks that work on that particular one, and I appreciate the work being done on that under the Department of Transportation. I should also point out that many of the secondary roads . . . A good example of an effort to save dollars is a project that involves some overlaying — about 9.66 kilometres, to be exact — just west of the Peace River airport.

By including with that contract a small portion — .34 kilo metres — of secondary road 685 from the highway in the centre of the town of Grimshaw to the new hospital site, there is a saving incorporated in having one contractor do both projects while he is in the area. That was initiated as a result of dis cussions with the Minister of Transportation. I thank him for that, and the constituents thank him as well. There has been discussion about airports, Mr. Speaker. When you're in an area that has a tremendous expanse, airports become very important to those particular residents.

This year I'm pleased to see that the Minister of Transportation will be including a visual approach slope indicator system and non- directional beacon for the Manning airport. That was recon structed and extended last year and is now the fire-fighting base for the forests to the west and north of the town of Manning. That fire-fighting base was moved out of the Peace River airport a couple of years ago when that airport was extremely busy.

We'll be opening the new provincial terminal facility — a beautiful facility that was constructed by the use of funds from the Heritage Savings Trust Fund — sometime in June, I hope. For the residents of the La Crete area, there are funds included for the purchase of an airstrip site in their area this summer, 1984. There is also some additional work that will have to take place on the Rainbow Lake community strip, and that is appre ciated as well. Mr.

Speaker, having said that in the area of transportation, I want to make a few comments about the work of a number of my colleagues, in particular the Minister of International Trade. He is working with the private sector and taking with him on many excursions to all parts of the world those people in industry that in fact are interested in having an opportunity to sell their services, resources, and particularly their expertise.

I commend the Minister of International Trade for the work he has been doing on behalf of all the citizens of Alberta, partic ularly the private sector, small-business community in this province. Along with that, my colleague the Minister of Economic Development is doing a great job in the work of trying to assist the medium-size and larger industries as they work their way through the conditions that we have experienced in the last couple of years. From the standpoint of the Department of Tourism and Small Business, Mr. Speaker, we are working. As a matter of fact,

April 6, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 339 I might speak about a project we completed not too long ago, where we, with the private sector, went to Europe to assist in the promotion of the two major international congress centres in Edmonton and Calgary, and in essence to say: hey, we are in business, and we are prepared to entertain your group coming to this province. As a result of that, I think we're going to see an increase in the number of opportunities for major congresses and international conventions taking place in the province of Alberta.

If a convention of around 2,000 delegates is confirmed for one centre or the other, that in essence brings to this province approximately $4.5 million in return for the services and experi ences that would be provided while visiting the great province we have. [some applause] Thank you kindly. That's the direct effect. The indirect effect is that those same people will go home and, if they have a good experience in our province, will tell others and hopefully plan individually to come back to Alberta to spend some of their holiday time here. We sincerely hope that will be the case.

We will work very hard toward that, and we continue to work with the indus try in that regard. Speaking of the budget again, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to get into more detail on it. I'd also like to thank the Minister of Education for his thoughtfulness, innovativeness, and the work he is doing to continue to improve education services to our citizens in this province. He has been doing that very, very well indeed. Under the Minister of Manpower, the dollars set aside in the budget for training programs and job-creation programs are most welcome indeed.

There isn't any question that there are a number of other areas where there is a good balance — that balance I spoke of earlier, which relates to the social side of it and also to job creation and construction. When you look specifically at the budget itself, you see $28 million for additional operating costs of new and renovated hospitals. Some of them are related to smaller hospitals in smaller communities. As far as I'm concerned, Mr.

Speaker, one of the things that hasn't been said enough is that the program initially was to replace older facilities in those communities that already had a service and, by the replacement of that service, to provide a better, more efficient operating capacity. It's easy for someone in the city of Edmonton or in the larger centres to say: cut out all those ones out there.

But when you're talking about what that particular facility does to that com munity — and I'll use an example: the community of Grim- shaw, where the new hospital is being constructed — the spin off effects of jobs that relate to other than hospital services is very, very important indeed. The recognition and the value of the continuation of a service that has been there for a long period of time is very, very important to all of us and has in fact been recognized by this government by stating that we would indeed do that and not close any particular facility.

In the area of senior citizens — and I'm fast approaching that particular area, Mr. Speaker; the white hair is one evidence of that — a number of programs in the budget this year and improvements to programs that were in place are most important indeed. The senior citizens' home heating grant program, extended for this particular year is most appreciated. The senior citizens' home improvement program — again, a major increase in the amounts of money set aside for that one. You can go on and on.

We look at the affordable shelter and rent assistance tax credit nearly doubled to $77 million — again, recognition of what in fact that does for our citizens. A major expansion of the Alberta home care program — eligibility for the program again will be expanded to include senior citizens with a medical condition who require only homemaking serv ices — is recognition again of the contributions made by our senior citizens in years gone by. The aids to daily living and the extended health benefits program is increased by 51 percent and of course benefits 80,000 senior citizens and physically handicapped.

We can go on and on, Mr. Speaker, about the programs that were presented by our Provincial Treasurer. I should also make note of The Great Trade Show and Cultural Exhibition of China that in fact begins very shortly in this city, Mr. Speaker. I ask each of my colleagues in the Legislature to go back to their constituents and alert them, if they have not been already alerted, to that great program coming here.

They should take the opportunity while they have the chance to see, right here in the city of Edmonton in 1984, probably one of the finest displays from outside Canada and, for that matter, by the Chinese community outside their country. When we start to actually look at what kinds of capital projects we have in place for this year, when we look at hospital construction, road construction, and other government con struction projects, I think it's very important that we recognize that there are others added to that.

Of course one of them is the project that will involve the 1988 Winter Olympics — the recognition within the Department of Recreation and Parks, the amounts of moneys budgeted for this year's activities relative to the development of the Olympic site in co-operation with the Calgary Olympic committee and others that are directly involved. Of course I happen to be personally involved with one project called Mount Allan.

I sit on that committee for Kananaskis Country so we can ensure that the legacy left after the devel opment of those facilities for the 1988 Olympics, which will be viewed by millions of spectators and visited by thousands, will in fact be the kind of recreation facility we want to see for our citizens and those who will come with them or after them. We intend to make sure that that is the best facility possible. It's interesting. I made the comment, and I think there were even some laughs, that there was snow on Mount Allan; it was hidden by the trees.

Sixty-foot trees do have a tendency to hide some of the snow qualities down there, particularly if you have never visited the site and are just speaking for the sake of being heard. I have been there. There is snow. Others have been there, and there is snow. If you want to go right to the peak of Mount Allan, there is no snow. But that isn't where we're going to ski, and quite honestly that isn't where the sheep are going to be. We should recognize that too. Having said that, the master plan for that particular project is near completion and will be made public after completion.

I'm stating that again so it is on record. Of course we will then get on with construction of that hill, either by the private sector or by government, whichever the case may be at that time. We'll work very, very closely with the Olympic committee to ensure that we have the facilities constructed on time, on sched ule, for the Olympics of 1988.

It's probably an opportunity for us in the area of tourism to take advantage of a major international event that will be viewed by almost every television company operating in the world, coming to that particular facility or picking up a feed from the opportunities that will be provided by others, to see just what we have in the province of Alberta in that particular region down there. Of course the major benefactors will be all the people of Alberta and of Canada, particularly the citizens of Calgary and region, where those facilities will in fact be in place.

I'm talking about all the facilities: the Nordic facilities, the speed skating facilities, the 70- and 90-metre jumps, the bob and luge runs, and the additional facilities that will be made available for the athletes' village, which will be used afterward by the university for students.

340 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1984 There are many, many benefits that will come from that particular event, and I want everybody to know I'm excited about it. I want you to be excited about it, and also to assist, where possible, in communicating that to our citizens. I will again say publicly that I would like to make myself available to those who would like to hear about Mount Allan.

We are putting together a slide presentation that will be available as quickly as we have our master plan in place, and I'd be delighted to come out and speak to groups about what we're doing and how we're doing it in that particular area. I'm going to leave the Mount Allan site aside for a moment and talk a little bit about two programs if I may, one somewhat past, because there are dollars in the budget that relate to the finalization of a deadline that has since passed.

That was the February 29 deadline for the small business and farm interest shielding program, which has probably been one of the most successful programs we have put in place, partly because of the co-operation we received from the private sector, from the lending institutions, and from the staff of the Department of Tourism and Small Business and the Department of Agricul ture.

As of this past weekend, a total of $67,312,311 was paid to the small business and farm communities in interest shielding payments that were maximized by the limit for a six-month period being $4,500 or the smallest amount probably being somewhere around $5. We said that if it was less than $5, we would hold it over to the next payment. Having said that, the number of original applications for businesses and the farming community in the province of Alberta has now hit the 50,000 mark — a very, very important program.

There are dollars in the budget this year for that final quarter and for any reviews by the review committee that may involve some adjustments in the program. We've had very little in the way of review opportunities, but we do have a review committee of private-sector citizens out there who are doing an exceptionally good job for us. The other one, of course, is the announcement in the budget of the small business equity companies program, on which I'll go into more detail in my estimates and after the introduction of the Act.

In principle, I do want to say that there were two figures mentioned in the budget; one was $15 million, and the other was four years. The idea behind the program is that we have the capacity, if the private sector responds, to draw on that sum of money at some time before the end of the four years. If the response by the private sector is sufficient, we may be out of funds and the program ended prior to the end of the four years. So it's whichever is the first.

Having said that, I would sense, and I'm putting it on record, that if that were to occur I may have a leg up in going back to seek some additional funds because of the kind of response that will have come from the private sector. But initially it's a $15 million program, and the term is four years; then it ends. That's to assist the development or creation of private-sector pools of equity capital in the province of Alberta for reinvestment by those companies in small or medium-sized businesses in the province of Alberta.

If in fact they do that, they will have an incentive bonus or grant, whichever the case may be. In essence that will be paid to them for having done that by reinvesting in this province. I think it's an exciting program. It was requested by a good number of people in the private sector. I should also give credit to the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce, who actually took a lot of those suggestions and put them together in a presentation to us, and to the Provincial Treasurer. With his support and with the support of all my colleagues, that program is in the 1984 Budget Address. We will be expanding it as we introduce

an Act to put the program in place. We're aiming at a procla mation at the end of this session. Then we would have infor mation packages or kits available, and they would go out to the community at large in the province of Alberta, probably by July I or mid-July. I say probably; I'm not tying myself to a time frame, but we're aiming at that kind of a

schedule so it is in fact in place. Mr. Speaker, again I'm really excited about that one. I think it's important indeed that when we have that opportunity cre ated, we have the kinds of responses to the program by my colleagues in the Legislature. I should point out that there are some pros and some cons to it as well. It's an investment opportunity and, as such, you have the chance to both win and lose. But the decisions will be made out there by the private sector for the private sector.

In essence, all we will do is be a catalyst, working with them and providing that financial incen tive that has worked so well in other areas in Canada and in the world. I have to give some credit to the province of Ontario in the sense that they've had a program in place for about four years and have worked out a great number of the kinks, if I can call it that, through the problems they have had. There is one in the United States called the SBIC program, small business investment corporations. There's another one in England called the ICFC program.

I'm not going to tell you what that one is, because I can't remember offhand what the initials are for. We've taken what we consider to be the best out of each one of them and then added an Alberta flavour, and that is the program we announced through the Provincial Treasurer in the budget of March 27. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, one other event I want to put on record for the citizens of my constituency is that this April, we will be turning the sod for a major complex in the town of Peace River, a senior citizens' lodge and senior citi zens' units project. It's a combined unit.

We've worked that out with my hon. colleague the Minister of Housing, and he has approved it. I believe the sod-turning will take place on April 19. It's a combination of 40 units of one and 44 units of the other, a major project that has been in the negotiation stage for a good number of years and is designed to fit the unique geographic area it's going to be sitting in, in the valley of the Peace River country. In closing, Mr.

Speaker, when you look over the highlights as presented by our Provincial Treasurer, when you look at our efforts to in fact make sure that we have a reduction in government expenditure — and as was pointed out and re- emphasized many times, the first in over 40 years — when we have an effort right across government to ensure that we do everything we can to reduce the number of staff in the government sector and to try to shift much of that work to the private sector, when you see there are no new taxes and no increases in existing taxes, when you see the new venture capital program coming on, when you see the capital projects of $1.7 billion — not counting the Crown agencies projects that are in place as well; I believe theirs totals $1.2 billion — and when you see the balance between the social programs or the people programs, I would like to congratulate the Provincial Treasurer and all my colleagues in government for the kind of direction, the kind of boldness that is necessary to ensure that we make these kinds of judgments on behalf of the citizens of the province of Alberta.

As the Member for the constituency of Peace River, I'm pleased to be a part of it. Thank you. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to adjourn debate. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Assembly agree?

April 6, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 341 HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: It is so ordered. [On motion, the Assembly resolved itself into Committee of the Whole] head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Committee of the Whole) [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the committee please come to order. Bill 5 Young Offenders Act MR. CHAIRMAN: There is an amendment to the Bill, which has been circulated among hon. members. Are there any ques tions or comments regarding the sections of the amendment? MR. HIEBERT: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to take a few moments to deal not only with the amendment but also with some of the questions raised by the Member for Edmonton Norwood and the Member for Lethbridge West on second read ing. As we indicated in the introduction to the Bill, the Act is generally considered to be a positive move in dealing with young offenders. The prime features are that it is preventive in nature, that not all problems have to be solved through the courts, and that early detection is of course a prime way of dealing with potential young offenders.

It also features the accountability and responsibility factor with the law. The new Act does away with the old Juvenile Delinquents Act, and it now differentiates between federal and provincial jurisdictions. As I said on second reading, the Bill was drafted not only to reflect consistency with the approach taken by the federal legislation but also to take into account in dealing with the regulatory matters as opposed to criminal offences.

Accord ingly, several provisions to the federal Act were not included as necessary, such as the special power to appoint legal counsel, alternative measures, and a wide range of dispositions. How ever, it was felt there was a question of perception with regard to alternative measures, and the amendment is brought forth to deal with that problem. The program of alternative measures as introduced in the amendment will apply only in those off ences which are designated by the Attorney General. That will be the key difference from the federal Act regarding alternative measures.

The amendment also deals with the transition period. Because the Act was to have come into force on April 1, the present conditions of dealing with offences will continue until the Act actually receives Royal Assent and is proclaimed. There's another part to the amendment which allows for a seven-day awareness period after the Bill receives Royal Assent. The alternative measures aspect of the amendment will come into force on proclamation. There were also some questions with regard to facilities.

Insofar as the Attorney General's department is concerned, it is anticipated that there are adequate courtroom facilities to implement the 12- to 15-year-old phase of the legislation. The plans for dealing with the 16- to 17-year-olds are not yet fin alized. I'm also aware that the Solicitor General's department is involved in discussions with regard to facilities and cost impli cations. It is my understanding, Mr. Chairman, that earlier this month Saskatchewan signed an agreement with the federal government in this regard, and Manitoba signed an agreement yesterday.

But in terms of details with regard to cost impli cations, that is as matter that should be addressed to the Solicitor General. The Attorney General's department is also involved in nego tiations with regard to legal aid. It's my understanding that they are optimistic that a satisfactory agreement can be reached with the federal government, but it has not been finalized yet. Further, in dealing with Bill 5 there is no express mention of legal aid in the Bill, and any applicant who is charged with a provincial offence will have to meet a set eligibility criterion.

Therefore it was not seen as necessary to have included in the Bill as such. The Bill generally deals with very minor offences, and they are regulatory in nature. Consequently the need for legal aid will not be the same as it is for the federal Act, which is dealing with much graver offences. Mr. Chairman, I should also point out that the young offender will not have a record, in that the individual under 16 cannot be incarcerated. With regard to training, it is my understanding that the department will be running seminars for its Crown counsel and court staff, as well as police.

The judiciary have run their own training seminars with regard to Bill 5. Through the Legal Education Society, the private bar will also be running seminars later this spring. The Attorney General's department will be furnishing Crown counsel to participate in these seminars. As I mentioned, when the Act receives Royal Assent with the amendment there will be a seven-day awareness period so all people involved in implementing the Young Offender's Act will have a period of time to make some adjustments.

The Member for Edmonton Norwood raised a question with regard to judges, their different philosophies and different ori entations: how are they going to deal with the specialized youth court? It is anticipated that the specialized youth court will deal with all young offender matters. In the first phase, 12- to 15- year-olds, it is anticipated that the majority of matters will be heard before youth court judges who were formerly with the Juvenile Division.

Plans have not been finalized for 16- to 17- year-olds as there is another year for that to take effect, but it is anticipated that one administrative group of judges will be dealing with all youth court matters. There was another question, Mr. Chairman, with regard to review boards. There is no mention of review boards in Bill 5. It was not envisaged that there would be substantial use of review provisions for provincial regulatory offences. Most dis positions will be short in length, fines are extremely limited, and there is no custody for those under 16.

In this situation it was felt it would be more appropriate for the present judiciary to review their dispositions. It is not anticipated that there will be a substantial workload in this procedure. With regard to publication of names, the Bill provides for nonpublication of names, and this is consistent with the federal Act. In view of the federal Act having nonpublication, it is the view that the age group we are dealing with provincially should be dealt with in a consistent way. Mr. Chairman, I hope I've responded to some of the ques tions that were raised by hon. members in second reading.

I'll wait to see if there are any further questions or comments. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chairman, I have had a chance for a quick perusal of the amendments to Bill 5. I am pleased that the alternate measures have been laid down; I think this is especially positive. I think it would save money, because they can now choose to go into these alternate measures before they go to

342 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1984 court, thus saving us the costs of a court case. I'm especially pleased too because there might be a tendency to prejudge guilt. It might be easy to take the alternate measures even if a person wasn't guilty. Before consenting to participate in the alternate measures, the young person will be advised of his right to be represented by counsel and will have a reasonable opportunity to consult with counsel. Mr. Chairman, generally the amendments are very positive. I commend the government, which I don't often do, for bringing in the amendments.

I will spend a little more time before third reading going through the hon. member's answers, to see if there are any other comments I might make at the time. There are only a couple of questions I want to ask at this particular time, Mr. Chairman. One of them refers to legal aid. I take it that young people can apply for legal aid if they have certain criteria. I'm just a little curious about what those criteria might be, if the member can fill me in today or perhaps in third reading. I'm also curious, for my reading, when we might expect third reading of this Bill. MR.

HYLAND: I wonder if I could make a few remarks related to this Bill; I wasn't here during second reading. I'd like to make those remarks, Mr. Chairman, as they relate to and as a member of the Social Care Facilities Review Committee. First I would like to say that some of the facilities we now have in existence in Alberta are fairly new. They're well- designed and, at least in my opinion, they appear to have good open areas. They also appear to have good programs, including the recreational and educational programs in those facilities where they exist.

We've also noted on our committee tours that the staff in the facilities seem good. They seem close to and very interested in helping the young offenders in there now. As all members know, the Social Care Facilities Review Committee calls on these facilities, as all others, unannounced. What we see when we get there is not something that's put on, because they don't have time to prepare for it.

So we assume that the way they act during the tours is the way things happen throughout the whole time in those facilities, The one concern I have as a member of that committee, which I think other members as well as the chairman share — this may be up to the Solicitor General as an operational thing, but I'd like to bring it forward now — is that proper actions will be taken in the penal system to separate the young offender at the bottom of the scale from the young offender at the top end of the scale.

I think it could be a very detrimental thing if we don't have that kind of separation in these facilities when they become used for the new age limits that are in there. Also, I understand that there are negotiations and discussions going on now among the Attorney General, the Solicitor Gen eral, and the Minister of Social Services and Community Health with regard to the committee visiting. I hope we soon come to a conclusion and that the committee continues to visit those facilities. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions or comments before the hon. sponsor of the Bill responds? MR.

CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, because the hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood has raised the question of when third reading might be sought, maybe I could indicate to him that I would like to see that done as early as possible in order that the Act will be available for Royal Assent. The federal Act is in force and, although numbers of these charges can still be charged against young people under regular court proceedings, ideally it would be helpful to have the Young Offenders Act in place. The reference to legal aid is something I might comment upon.

That's a matter which is under negotiation at the present time with the Legal Aid Society of the province of Alberta. In my view the negotiations have progressed really quite satis factorily. There will be further consideration in respect of fund ing. It could well be that in this fiscal year there will be a further call upon public funds, because the young offenders legal aid being in effect laid on top of the existing legal aid plan will undoubtedly create some additional costs. So those are the considerations, but the negotiations are well-advanced. MR. MARTIN: Just to follow up on that.

I take it that third reading could be Monday, Tuesday — somewhere in that range of time. With the legal aid, is the parents' financial capabilities one of the considerations they're looking at in terms of who would qualify? Is that the main thing that would — let me put it this way. If an individual juvenile is eligible for legal aid, the main criterion would be the parents' ability to pay. MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that would be a prin cipal consideration. The desire there is not to see the publicly funded aspect of this type of legal counsel work, any larger than it need be.

Although there will be situations where family circumstances would say that because of something approach ing the abandonment of the child at a certain age, the parents wanting nothing further to do with that child, or things to that effect, there might be cases where the legal aid people would look upon the person as not having suitable available support from the family. But in many cases the family wants to get involved, indeed have something to say about what lawyer is acting for their youngster.

In those cases we would hope that where there's the financial ability, in the vast majority of cases the parents would come forward and look after that, to the dual benefit of appearing to work with rather than against the child in difficult circumstances as well as making no greater than necessary the call upon public funds. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chairman, one follow-up question to that. It raised an interesting point.

If a juvenile — let's put it this way — were being abandoned by the parents and the Attorney General's department felt that the parents should be at least financially responsible for the child and they had the money to do that, rather than just accepting the child in legal aid would they then attempt to recover some of the money from the par ents? In my understanding they would still be legally respon sible for that child, whether or not they want to abandon the child. MR. CRAWFORD: I think that makes a good point, Mr. Chair man.

The answer is yes, legal services in those circumstances would be considered unnecessary, and the young offender would be entitled to that type of support from a parent. The efforts that are made as a practical matter by the Legal Aid Society employees are to make such arrangements with the parents in advance if they possibly can, but there could be cases when they would in effect be following up collection against the parents. MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased the Attorney Gen eral supplemented the questions with regard to legal aid.

If the Member for Edmonton Norwood would like to have more spe cific information, I'd be pleased to bring that in when we have third reading.

April 6, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 343 Mr. Chairman, the Member for Cypress mentioned the objective or the goal to try to take some action with regard to separating the young offenders presently in our penal system. I recognize the concern the hon. member has, but in this par ticular Act I think it's going to take some time to actually implement the Act and to have the appropriate facilities and actions in place for our young offenders. I'm very positive about the Act and where it's going with regard to dealing with young people, and I look forward to it having a very positive result for our young Albertans.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that Bill 5 be reported as amended. Pardon me, I'll have to wait for that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question on the amendment? [Motion on amendment carried] We now have the Bill as amended. Are there any further questions or comments on the amended Bill? All those in favour of Bill No. 5 as amended, please say aye. Those opposed, please say no. The Bill is approved as amended. MR. HIEBERT: Sorry, Mr. Chairman, I got ahead of myself. I move that Bill 5 as amended be reported. [Motion carried] MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Chairman, I move that the committee rise and report. [Motion carried] [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] MR. APPLEBY: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole Assembly has had under consideration and reports Bill 5 with some amendments. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the report, do you all agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, on Monday the House will be in Committee of Supply, and it's intended to sit in both the afternoon and the evening.

The first department to be called will be Advanced Education, and there is a possibility that a separate department would be called at 8 o'clock, whether or not Advanced Education is completed. That's something that's under consideration at the present time. The departments to be called after Advanced Education would be Agriculture, and Consumer and Corporate Affairs, in that order. Mr. Speaker, I move we call it 1 o'clock. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the motion by the hon. Government House Leader, do you all agree? HON.

MEMBERS: Agreed. [At 12:21 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 4, the House adjourned to Monday at 2:30 p.m.]

344 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1984

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