Manitoba Hansard — 13 October 1988 (Sitting 56, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-56

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 56 - 1:30 p.m., THURSDAY, OCTOBER 13, 1988. ISSN 0542 - 5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENC Y ALCOCK, Reg Os borne ANGUS, John St. Nor bert ASHTON, Steve Thom pson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR, James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River He ights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gul zar Kildo nan CHORNOP YSKI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Chur chill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Rus sel l DOER, Gary Concordia DOWN EY, James Hon. Ar thur DRIEDG ER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L.

Niakwa DUC HARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lake side ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FIND LAY, Glen Hon. Vir den GAUDRY, Neil St. Bonif ace GILLES HAMMER, Harold Minned osa GRAY, Avis Ell ice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. ln kster MALOWAY, Jim Elm wood MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia MANNE SS, Cl ayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon.

Brandon West MINE NKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUF ELD, Harold, Hon. Rossm ere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Glad stone ORCHA RD, Donald Hon. Pe mbina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNE R, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonne t ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gill es Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill ln terlake WASYLYC IA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, Iva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBER AL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBER AL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIB ERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBER AL NDP LIB ERAL NDP NDP LIBER AL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, October 13, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINIST ERIAL STATEMENT S AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Char lotte Ol eson (Mi nist er of Comm unity Services): I have a ministerial state ment. I wou ld like to inform the Mem bers of the Ass embly that I am announcing toda y a new initiative of my Department of Emplo yment Servic es and Econ omic Security , a p rogram called "Gateway. " "Gateway" is a new op por tuni ty for social assistance re cipients in Manitoba to participate in job trai ning � lead ing to permanent emp loyment.

This 30 -wee k , pr og ram will combine cl assroom instruction at recogn ized trai ning institutions with on-the- job tra ining to give the participants the skills the y need to become effective and val uable emplo yees. Manitoba emplo yers who provide on- the -job trai ning and emplo yment will receive wage assistance from the pr ogram . This $1 million initiative will be deliv ered by provincial Empl oyment Services offices in Winnipeg , Brandon and The Pas , and will serve th ose commun ities and surr ounding areas. Approximately 11 0 social assistance re cipients are expe cted to benefit from the prog ram.

Staff of Emplo yment Services and Ec onomic Security are begin ning participant selec tion and orienta tion immediately . The institutional trai ning will beg in in Januar y, and pr ivate se ctor emplo yers who can pr ovide on-the-job tr aining and a commitment to long- term empl oyment for the participants will be rec ruit ed in the coming weeks and months.

I would like to note that this new provincial � commitment is in addition to Manito ba's pre viously , agreed upon participation in emplo yment prog ramming under the Canada -Ma nitoba Agreement on Emplo yability Enh ancement for social as sistanc e re cipients. Under the original terms of this agre ement, the Go ver nme nts of Canada and Manitoba are contri buting $6 milli on jointly this year toward various programs and pr ojects which provide emplo yment prepa rat ion opportun ities for the many social assistance re cipie nts in this province who want ec onomic independence.

The fed eral Govern ment will be matching the province's budget for "Gateway" through $1 million of Canadian Jobs St rategy Program ming targeted to social assistance re cipients. * (13 35) In addition, I am also announcing toda y that our Gover nment is adding an extra $400,000 to the budge t of the Single Parent Job Access Program. This is over and abo ve $3 milli on of funding pr ovided jointly by Manitoba and the Government of Canada this year.

This sup plemental funding our Go vernment is pr oviding will be util ized to expand and enh ance skills tr aining options for single parents thr oughout the pr ovince who are in rece ipt of social assistance. The trai ning will be un dertaken in the areas of health care aid, elec tron ics, bus and truck dr iving and clerical and legal secre tarial work.

Our Government believ es that the trai nin g opportuniti es available un der "Gat eway " and the "Single Parent Job Access" will be a good invest ment for th ose individuals who benefit directly and for all of us who want to ensure tha t the best use is made of our province's human and financial reso ur ces. Thank you. Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (L eader of the Opposition): The Liberal Party in Manito ba, gather ed her e in this House, thanks the Minister for her announc ement tod ay. lt is particu larly a timely annou ncement in tha t th e unemplo yment statistics have gone up by 7,000.

We are, of cou rse, hoping that it is not a little too la te in the form of an initiative annou nced here. Some of the things, however, tha t are not include d in this and that raise particular concern to me and my caucus is that many of the single parents will not be able to access this program if ther e is not adequa te day care. If the y cannot find the method by which their childr en will be given priority care, then the y will not be able to take advantage of this pr ogram . lt do es not appear that this Government is the least bit inter ested in esta blishing any new and additional day care spaces .

An Honourable Mem ber: No, wrong again! An Honourable Member: You have to clear a button on the comput er. You got that wr ong. Mr. Speaker: Order , ple ase. I am sur e we want to give the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) the op portunity of expr es sing her views on this ministerial state ment. The Honour able Leader of the Oppositio n. Mrs. Carstairs: Thank you, Mr. Spe aker. lt would be nice if the Go ver nment could li sten to the same seriousne ss of what I have to say as I lis tened to the Minister's sta tement. The issue here of unemp loyment in this pro vince is one that is gr owi ng daily .

Programs like the one announc ed by the Minister and the funding of $1. 4 mil lion is st ill very short of the $8 million that was available to the previous administra tion under the Manitoba Jobs Fund. I cong ratu la te the Government on this new initiative. Mo re are req uired and more must be addressed in the issue of day care if particula rly single-parent moth ers are to take advantage of this particular program. * (1 340) 2065

Thursday, October 13, 1988 Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I thank th e Minister for the program , for the announcement about a rather minor increase in what we are doing to help welfare recipients , particularly single parents , get some training and get some employment . But I would point out an interesti ng observation . The previ ous Gov ernment formed the Department of Empl oyme nt Services and Economic Security, bringing it togeth er so that you cou ld inde Hd tackle the problem of people on welf are who may need some training and who could therefore get some permanent employment. I can advise you, Mr.

Speak er, that we, in our Party, when we were in Government about three years ago , suggested to the federal Government that terms of the Canada Assistance Program administration be changed so that we could engage in prog rams like this. Our proposal was accepted and we set up the Empl oyab ilit y Enhancement Program, a program of $6 million a year for a couple of years . It was very successful and the federal Government agreed at that time-Mr. Jake Epp agreed over a year ago -that we should put more money into it, and we said , yes , we would put more money into it.

I suspect what we have today is a bit of a program that is linked to this initiative that we were prepared to take approximately a year ago to provide more funding to train people , particula rly single parents who are on social assistance , to allow them to obtain permanent employment . The regrettable thing , Mr. Speaker , is we have a bit of money being put forward here . At the same time, we were advised in this House not long ago that the $10 million Training for Tomorrow Program was to be no more, that no longer was the Government obtaining applications or receiving applications.

So we have had a sharp drop in monies available for training on the job of unemployed Manitobans. I would also observe that the Conservative Government in Ottawa has announced and is fulfilling a major cutback in funding of training in our communit y colleges , a 39 percent cutback over years. If you look at the total figures on federal Government spending on training and employment in this province, you will see a drastic cutback under the Mulroney Government. The people of Manitoba are simply being cut back by millions of dollars . In respect to the statement itself , Mr.

Speaker , I say that while it is important to help the structurally disadvantaged-and this is what this paper relates to it does nothing really for those young people and not so young people who become unemployed becaus e o f the downturn of the business cycle , because of the worsening economic conditions in this province. It does nothing for the 7,000 additional people who are now unemployed in Manitoba. It does nothing for nearly 43,000 people in total who are unemployed .

The fact is that, according to the figures t11at we have seen from Stats Canada , unemployment is worsening , is getting much worse than it should be, and this is a trend that has been evident for three months now, three months in a row. I am suggesting that this statement, while it helps a few people who are structurally unemployed , will do virtually noth ing for those 7,000 additional peopl e who are unemp loyed. It will do nothing for the vast bulk of peop le who are unemployed in Manit oba today . Mr. Speaker: Prior to ora l question s, I have numerous announcements. INTRODUCTI ON OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: May I direct the attention of Honourab le Members to th e Speak er's gallery whe re we have with us today His Excell ency, Dr. Bernard Yankey, who is the High Commissioner for the Organization of Eastern Caribbean Sta tes. On beha lf of all Honourable Member s, I welcome you here this afternoon. We also have with us this afternoon , in the public gallery, from the Oakenw ald School, forty-five Grad e 5 students under the directio n of Miss Mary- Ann e Mitchler. This schoo l is located in the constituen cy c · the Honourabl e Member for Fort Garry (Mr. Laurit. Evans).

On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welco me you here th is afternoon . ANNOUNCEMENT Mr. Speaker: I am sure that all Honourable Members would like to join me in congratulating the Honourabl e Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) and his wife , Ruth , on the birth of their daughter, and a new sister for Rachel and Benjamin , early this morning at the Victoria General Hospital. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MPIC Rate Reviews Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition) My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation (Mr. Cummings).

Past statements from this Government have led us to believe that they would be depoliticizing the Manitob a Public Insurance Corporation and as part of this new philosophy of open and accessible Government, motor vehic le insurance rates would first have to be approved by the Public Utilities Board. My question to the Minister respon sible is: Has there been any change in that policy since it was announced within the past week ? •

(1345) Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation) : Mr. Speaker, the Member opposite, first of all, is wrong in saying that policy was just enunciated this week . We have indicated for a great length of time that rate s will be reviewed by the Publi c Utility Board. 2066 of e

Thursday, October 13, 1988 PC Manitoba Fund Auto Insurance Agents Mrs. Sharon Cars tairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on Octo ber 7, the PC Mani to ba Fund inv ited insuranc e d ealers to a breakfast meeting on October 20, at which they would be briefed by the Ministe r responsibl e f or MPIC (Mr. Cummings ). In order to attend , not only they are required to pay $ 10, which, I gran t you, is nominal, but they are also required to con firm their attendance with employees of the Manitoba PC Fund .

My question to the Minister responsible for MPIC is how can the Min ister on the one hand speak of open and non-partisan Government , and on the other hand request that insurance agents wish ing to meet with him must first subscribe to the PC Manitoba Fund? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , I always knew that there was something deep behind the first q ues t ion of the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carsta irs). An Honourable Member: It was very deep. Paul Edwards must have written that one . Mr. Filmon: There is indeed a luncheon being put on by the PC Manitoba Fund .

I believe I am invited there and I believe perhaps the Min ister responsible is also going to be there . There will be several of our Ministers there to listen to the views and the concerns of people from a cross-section of industry and business in this provinc e. This is a series of ongoing luncheons. I believe that we have had two or three since we have been in Government. We have had different people at them every time. These are not strictly people from the insurance industry . There will be people from all areas of business and industry .

The only reason they are to confirm their attendance with the PC Manitoba Fund is so we know how much lunch to order. Mrs. Carstairs: First of all , it is breakfast and not !unch , but obviously he has been invited, Mr. Speaker, since he does not know what meal of the day it is. Auto Insurance Agents Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Can the Mini ster responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation (Mr.

Cummings) tell this House why the insu ranc e agent s c annot meet through an invitat ion to h is offic e, but instead have been invited via thi s route thro ugh the PC Manitoba Fund in order to find out more detail s about MPIC? Hon. Glen Cum mings (Min ister responsible for the Manit oba Public Insurance Corporation) : Mr. Speaker, the number of meetings that I have had w ith th e agents , wit h autobody repair peo ple, indicate that my office is open to these people any t ime they want to set up a meeting. They are more than welcome . Mrs. Carstairs: With a supplementary qu estion to th e same Minister .

Did his staff release any info rmation to the PC Manitoba Fund such as the list of insu rance agents t he Fund used in its mailout ? Mr. Cummings : Absolutely not, Mr. Spea ker. Guest List Preparation Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition) : A ques tion to the First M inister (Mr. Film on). How many other meetings has the PC Manitoba Fund arranged between his Ministers and other groups who have no inter est at all in supporting the PC Fund but feel they must in order to receive information from his Government ? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : Mr.

Speaker , a matte r of days or weeks after the Budget , the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and I met with people, and the invitations were sent out by the PC Man itob a Fund . It was something that we did not want to have done at the expense of Government . We wanted it to be done by the PC Manitoba Fund. People pay for the ir own lunch or breakfast , whatever it is, so that there is no cost to the taxpayer . We are soliciting feedback and concerns and reactions and responses from people throughout the community .

I can tell you that the list that was used by PC Manitoba Fund was not from any Minister 's office. It was to do with people - a cross-section of people . They get names, addresses, phone numbers of business people and they invite them to come and meet with Ministers so that we can get their advice and share their concerns with them as a basis upon which we make judgments and decide future policy for this province. We meet with people day after day. I go out and meet with people in Brandon , in Altona, in Steinbach. We invite people in to meet with us.

We get these names from the phone book; we get these names from lists of people all over the place, Mr. Speaker . We are an open Government-we want to have response and dialogue with the people of Manitoba - and if the Liberals do not like it, that is their problem. Mrs. Carstairs: This is such an open Government you have to get an invitation from the PC Manitoba Fund . What is this Government doing with regard to the preparation of lists, lists which you have already indicated were issued even for a meeting with the Finance Minister (Mr. Manness)? What lists is this Government providing to the PC Manitoba Fund?

Mr. Filmon: We have asked for peop le from the business community to suggest names to us. So these lists of nam es are provided by other people in the bus iness community saying we think you shou ld meet with these different peopl e. We just take th ose l ists , we i nvite these people , we ask them to respond so w e know how mu ch food to o rder, a nd we have a meeting with them and so licit their advi ce. Mr. Speaker, I would lik e the Leader of the Liber al Part y (Mrs. Carstairs) to know wh o p repares the list for the Liberal fun d t hat they send out to ask for 2067

Thursday, October 13, 1988 donation s, because they sent one to me aski ng me to donate to the Liberal Party. I object to that, Mr. Speaker, because I have absolute ly no int ention of supporting the Libera l Party and I wish that the Leader of the Opposition would take my name off that list. *

(1350) Government Ethics Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): We are talking about ethics in Government. We are talking about Ministers meeting with individuals at the request of the PC Manitoba Fund. Does this Government not beilieve that that is a violation of their Oath of Office as Ministers of the Crown that they should use their ministries in such a blatant political way? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): We have gone out to different groups in Manitoba's communities and societies and said: Would you do us a favour and arrange a group of people that we could speak to, so that we could have a bit of dialogue and communication with? We have gone to service clubs and asked them to put together lists of people. We have gone to community-based groups and asked them to put together a list of people . We went to the PC Manitoba Fund and said : Bring us a cross-section of people from the business community, names that you can put together of people we can have dialogue with.

We did it so that it would not be an expense to Government, not one nickel of it would be paid for by the taxpayers of Manitoba , and we did it in a way that it would be self-sustaining so that those people would pay the cost of their meal themsEllves and they would have an open dialogue . There would be absolutely no interference in any way whatsoever-a completely open exchange of ideas - and we did it in a way that we thought was reasonable, and we, cannot understand what the problem is of the Leade r of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs). Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Order, please ; order, please. The Honourable Member for Concordia. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Siecond Opposition): While everybody is taking each other off lists, I would ask that the Government take the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) off the list from the, PC Manitoba Fund . Ten dollars is a lot to pay, for an MLA, for cold eggs and a boring speech from the Tories.- (Interjection)- I get letters from everybody, Mr. Speaker. Aluminum Sm1elter Proposal in Concept Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Siecond Opposition): My question is dealing with the 7,000 people who are unemployed in this province, and dealing with the lack of initiative and lack of economic development on behalf of the P remier (Mr. Filmon) in dealing with a very, very serio us issue fac ing Manitobans . There are 7,000 peop le u nemployed in terms of over last year. That is larger than the size of the communi ty of t he Minister of Employment Services and Eco nomic Secu rity (Mrs. Oleson) . It is larger than the comm unities of many of the Members of this Chamber . It is a very ser ious issue .

My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Mr. Mu lroney six weeks ago stated that the federal Government was "awaiting a proposal from Manitoba dealing with the aluminum plant." We heard again this weekend when he was visiting his rid ings in Quebec about how positive he was to Mr. Bourassa's proposal in Quebec for an aluminum plant. The company five weeks ago, in the business pages, which I am sure all Members read, stated that the company is on the fast track in this alum inum plant.

Has the First Minister submitted a proposal in concept, at minimum , as he has indicated for other proposals in this province, to get funding from the federal Government for an aluminum plant in Manitoba, given the positive response from the Prime Minister to Quebec and given the positive response that all kinds of other projects, billions of dollars worth of projects , are getting fund ing from this pre-election and first week of election commitments from the Prime Minister? Have you subm itted the proposal yet on our aluminum plant? *

(1355) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : I do not know how the NDP used to work it but , first thing, we have to have a firm agreement between ourselves and Alumax as to what is involved in the proposal. It involves negotiation on energy rates. It involves negotiations on any subsidies or capital investments or non-repayable loans or repayable loans, or any of those things that Alumax may have.

When they have a proposal that they put before us that outlines their fiscal plan, their investment proposal for Manitoba, that identifies clearly how much money in terms of taxpayers' involvement in the development of this is clear, then we can put a proposal to Ottawa. First and foremost, we negotiate with Alumax. We establish their bona fide interest in Manitoba. If indeed they are interested and we can take it to a stage where Alumax is going to provide a benefit to Manitoba by locating here and creating an opportunity here in Manitoba, then we will have a proposal to put forward to Ottawa.

Ottawa will listen to us when we have a firm proposal. You do not go out trolling and fishing, saying to Ottawa , well , we may need $100 million , we may need $50 million, we may need $500 million; when we find out, of course, we will fill in the numbers, but just sign the cheque for us now so that we can go to Alumax and get them here and then we will fill in the numbers later. It does not work that way. Perhaps it did with the NDP, and that is why we are in all the trouble we are in this province; that is why we have a payroll tax that is destroying job initiative; that is why we have the second 2068

Thursday, October 13, 1988 highest overa ll tax lo ad in this entir e coun try of ours. We are not doing things tha t way. Mr. Doer: That is right. You are not doing things tha t way. You are not doing things any way. You have created 7,0 00 more unemp lo yed this September over a year ago because of this hands -off do-nothing appr oach of the Govern ment. Economic Development Job Creation Strategy Mr. Gary Doer (l eader of the Second Oppo sition): My qu est ion to the First Minister (Mr . Filmon) is deal ing with this very serious issue.

Given the fact tha t the Prime Minister has indicated federal suppor t for a number of proposals in conc ept - whether it is Hibernia; whether it is Lloy dminster, with the oil prices going down ; whether it is in heavy oil projects, the Oslo pr ojects ; whether it is in other reg ional development pro jects and boondogg les in the Province of Quebec- � the Prime Minister is handing out billions of dolla rs , that Manitoba taxpa yers will have to pay.

Why does this First Minister not realize tha t the boat has left the harbour and it is time for Manitoba to get on it in terms of job crea tion programs in this countr y? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , ever ybody in this province, except the NDP Mem bers sitting in this Leg isla tur e, unde rstands tha t you cannot turn arou nd six years of ad verse policies in six months. If we are talking about the expectat ions of the ec onomy in Manitoba- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; ord er. Mr.

Filmon: If we are ta lking about the expect at ions and project ions for the ec onomy , Mr. S peaker, let us start with a few facts. In March of this year, for the first time in mor e than a de cade, Man itoba's unemplo yment rate was above the national average, � tha t is No. 1. No. 2, here is a plan ning document from , the NDP-q uotes from a planning document from the Planning and Priorit ies Committee of Cabinet tha t was devel oped early in 19 88.

Here are some of the quo tes tha t the y said: "Follo wing three years of real ec onomi c gr owth that exce eded the national average from 19 84, up to and including 19 86, Manitoba's economic gr owth is expected to be less than Canada's for 19 88 and 19 89." Tha t is what the document said. Mr.

Speaker , here is another thing that it said: "Follo wing the completion of the Polo Park expansion and Nor th Por tage in 19 87 and the dec lining level of activity on the Limestone Project after the summer of 19 88, it can be expec ted tha t the Manitoba economy will experienc e some falling off in its rate of gr ow th." So they were saying th at the eco nomy was slowly going down the tube and th ey did not have any ans wers to that. Now he is tr ying to blame tha t on our Government tha t has only been in office for a matter of five months. * (14 00) 2069 Mr.

Doer: Ind eed , documents would come from the Go vern ment bur eaucr acy, the y would come from pla nning bodies , they wou ld come from conf erenc e boards, and we used those documents to do someth ing, instead of sitting back and do nothing like the First Minister (Mr . Filmon)- absolutely no thing. Seven thousand more people are unemplo yed . Half the Winnipeg arena, when it is full, is unemplo ye d. Mr. Speaker: Order , pl ease. Does the Honour able Mem ber have a ques tion? Mr. Doer: This is very se rious, Mr. Speaker .

Will the First Minister admit to the people of Manitoba tha t eve ry pred iction in terms of gr owth and emplo yment in their la st Budget were wr ong. For th ree months running, their unemplo yment rates have been wron g, their gro wth rates are no w wr ong. Will he come back with a job crea tion strategy? Will he not real ize the world does not come to Manitoba, that Manitoba has to go out to the world to develop our job potential and our futu re? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the NDP (Mr . Doer) is right. Every time they were given pred ictions, th ey did some thing about it.

I will tell you what they did. When they fo und tha t th ey had a problem with unemplo yment they decided to send the Te lephone System workers to Saudi Arabia and lo se $27 mil lion. They raised the payro ll tax, Mr. Speaker; they raised our overall tax rates in this province to the seco nd highe st in the entir e countr y so that the y could invest money in short-term make-work jobs that created not hing of su bstance for the future of Manitoba.

That is the kind of initiative they took , those are the decisions they took, and that is why they have bur ied us in a situat ion that we are now tryin g to get out of it. So what are we doing, Mr. Speaker? We are inves ting in lon g-term opportu nities; we are making sur e th at we attract busine sses that will be here for the long haul; we have reduced the payro ll tax in Manitoba, and committed to remove it entir ely.

We are work ing with small business in Manitoba and we are keep ing a lid on the debt in Manitoba so tha t we will have a sound economy upon which to build a base for long- term em pl oyment in this province. Mr. Doer: All the rhetoric and all the Polly anna speeches from the First Minister to the Chamber of Commer ce do not change the basic facts. Tory times are tough time s. The economy is going down. Every pred iction and numb er proves the First Minister wr ong.

What is he and his Govern ment going to do to develop eco nomic development to meet his obl igations in his Budget that was presented in this Chamber just two months ago? Mr. Filmon: We have rem oved the payro ll tax off half the empl oyers that are curr ently paying it in Ma nitoba. We have put in an incentiv e for new small business to be gin in Manitoba by a tax holida y for the first five years of their opera tion. We have red uced our deficit to the lo west level that it has been since 19 80. We

Thursday, October 13, 1988 have begun the course of deficit reduction to take the burden off all the taxpa yers, including the corporations and small businesses of thi s province , so that they can keep their profits in Manitoba and invest them in job creation , expansion and opportunities. We are supporting the Free Trade Agreement , the opportunity for- An Honourable Member: You said reach out in other markets, Gary. You said that a few minutes ago. Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please . Mr. Filmon: We are supporting the Free Trade Agreement. We are seeking new opportunities for Manitoba .

We are supporting the Free Trade Agreement , the opportunity for Manitoba producers, for Manitoba manufacturers, to access a market ten times the size of our Canadian market-opportunities for expansion , growth, investment, job creation. That is what we are concentrating on, not the gloom and doom of the NOP Government as quoted in their statistics. They said in early 1988 that Manitoba's economy was going down the tube and we are reversing that, Mr. Speaker . Pharmacard System Initial Costs Mr. William Chornopyski (Bur rows) : My question should be for the Minister respo nsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld) .

However, in the past, he has been somewhat reluctant to answer questi ons; so I will direct my question to the Minist er of Health (Mr. Orchard) . Yesterday, the Honourable Minister of Health stated that he had not ruled out a Pharmacard system or a program for seniors. He also announced that it would cost more than $6 million to implement the Pharmacard system advocated by the Liberal Party of Manitoba .

Would the Minister table the report that stated that implementation of the Pharmacard program would cost in excess of $6 million, considering that the Saskatchewan Government is projecting implementation costs of approximately $2 million for their program? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis •ter of Health) : Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend is right. Th e implementation costs of the program are $2 million to set up the framework of the program . What he should ask the Saskatchewan Government is what is the cost of their Pharmacare Program afte r it is implemented.

He may find that to be an additional $6 million in Saskatchewan as well. Feasibility St:udy Mr. William Chornopyski (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, to the same Honourable Minister . In view of the fact that this Government has continually refused to promote programs beneficial to seniors, will the Minister redeem himself and consult with his colleague, the Minister responsible for the Seniors' Directorate (Mr. Neufeld) , to undertake immediately a feasibility study and report back to this House within three months? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker , I do not want to take my honourable friend's suggestion lightly because he makes it with all sincerity, but my honourable friend ought to consider the urgings of the Health cr itic, the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) , his Leader (Mrs. Carstairs), who say do something right now; do not study, just do something . Mr. Speaker , where is the Liberal Party coming from? Do they want studies or do they want action?

Our purpose , our goal and our direction , o ver the last five months that we have been in Government, have been consultation with Cabinet and caucus colleagues to address needs of Manitobans, to further discuss direction with Manitobans, particularly in the Department of Health with a diversity of groups involved in the delivery of health service and consumers of health services, to find out how we can make this Department of Health and its program delivery more effectively meet the need s of Manitobans.

Those discussions will result in some positive changes to the system, and I know that my honourable friend who has posed the question • will support those changes . *

(1410) Mr. Chornopyski : Mr. Speaker , to the same Minister. Will the Minister also consider taking up discussion s with such groups as the Manitoba Seniors to determine the public's needs for a Pharmacard program? Will he also provide this House with that $6 million figure report? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, when we approach the Estimate s and we discuss the Pharmacare Program in the Estimates , I am sure my honourable friend will want to pose those questions because those guesstimates of cost from the Pharmacare Program managemen t can be made available.

As well, other options of allowing greater access, faste r refund of Ph armacare deductibles , can be discussed at that time because the Pharmacare card is one of a number of options that are available for the system and are under review. Telephone Services Rural Enhancement Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): Mr. Speak er, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System (Mr. Findlay). MTS recentl y announced some long overdue and much needed improvements in parts of rural Manitoba after years of neglect by the previous NOP Government. An Honourable Member: You used to belong to it. Mr.

Roch: And you used to belong to the Tories . Unfortunately - Mr. Speaker: Ord er, pleas e; order . Mr. Roch: Members of thi s House do not think rural telephone service is a serious issue. It is unfortunate , Mr. Speaker, that significant portions of rural Manitoba were totally and intentionally ignored by this 2070

Thursday, October 13, 1988 Government even tho ugh they, like all Manitob ans, will start paying higher rates in the very near future , almost immediately. My question to the Minister is: can he tell this Hous e why the communities surroundin g Winn ipeg and Brandon will be receiving virtually no improvements to service even though they have been paying more than their fair share for the past several years and will be continuing to do so? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System): It was a plea sure to be able to have announced the Manitoba Telephon e System is improving the service to rural Manitoba over the coming years. I think it is safe to say that all members of rural Manitoba will see improved opportunities to have the class of telephone service that the citizens of Winnipeg and Brandon have had for a long time.

The individual line service will be available to all communities over a program of a period of time , and they will have the opportunity of purchasing an optional ' call program to the City of Winnipeg for about a 50 percen t reduction in their long distance rates to the City of Winnipeg, for a cost of $5 a month , up to a maximum of $5 0.00 . There are two significant improvements in the service that those people will have in the areas surrounding Winnipeg and Brandon . Rural Telephone Services Direct Dialing Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): The Minister has not addressed the question I was asking .

Will the Minister tell this House why the Government refuses to provide rural communities surrounding Brandon and Winnipeg wit h the direct no-cost dialing which is vital to their economic survival and which they have been rightfully demanding for many years? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System): There is nothing that does not cost some money. Telephone employees need to have their salaries paid . Lines that are laid need to be paid for. Switches that need to be installed need to be paid for.

If those people -those 13,700 - were to receive free calling into the City of Winnipeg and the City of Brandon , it would cost all residents in those two cities-some 640,000 people - an additional $3 to $5 a month, and we chose not to do that because we did not believe that all the citizens of Winn ipeg wanted that kind of increas e in their monthly telephone bill. Rate Decrease Mr.

Gilles Roch (Sprin gfield): I disagree with the Minister ; but if the Minister will not commit to direct dialing for these communities , a position which the PC caucus supported while in Opposit ion, will he decrease the rates for those residents, especially the exorbitant rates that those residents who are forced to use FAX servic e are paying right now? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephon e System): When the telephone rates across the country are com pared on communities of equal size , Manitoba has, by and large , the lowest telephone rates across Canada .

After the improvements are brought in and the improvements are paid for, we will co ntinu e to have amongst, if not the lowest, telephone rates across the count ry of Canada, and we will start to have equal leve l of service . Fisheries Industry Small Mesh Net Policy Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) sounds like our Leader on telephone rates all the time. My question is to the Minister of Natural - (Interjection)- the grandfather of Saudi Arabia is sitting right there , the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . Some Honourable Members : Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker : Order, please ; order. I have recognized the Honourable Member for Interlake . Mr. Uruski: My question is not to the Sheik of Pembina , who started the Saudi Arabi a deal ; but my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources responsible for Fisheries (Mr. Penner), dealing with Lake Manitoba . Lake Manitoba has two basins , recognizing that 80 percent of the fishermen are located on the south basin and can , of course , by number , dictat e what happens to the entire lake in terms of fishery .

The majority of fishermen on the north basin, along with local Municipal Councils and Wildlife Federation representatives , are all opposed to the recently announced sport fishery , the "sma ll net fishery." Recognizing that last year there was a small net fishery on the entire lake and the fishermen from the south outvoted the north fishery, I am asking the Minister , will he consider altering his proposal to exclude the north basin from what is considered by those involved in the industry to be the wrong decision to the long-term health of the fishery? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) , on a point of order. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker , I wanted my honourable friend to finish his question before I raised a point of order . The statement made by my honourable friend about MTX in Saudi Arabia is factually incorrect. He sat in Cabinet when Premier Pawley and Muriel Smith signed the Order-in Council to create MTX . He sat in Cabinet when it happ ened and what he is indicating is factua lly incorrect. Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order . Hon.

Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): The Honou rable Member for Int erlake (Mr. Uruski) asks a very valid question. The health of the fisheries on Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg are of real co ncern to myself and also 2071

Thursday, October 13, 1988 to my department. The Fisheri es Department, during the summer months and during the spring months , to date , had done a series of consultations with fishermen , as well as other interested parties, around Lak e Manitoba. It was ind icated by that series of consultative meetings that there was a need to continue the three inch mesh net fisheries for ano ther year. As a matter of fact, they recommended that th ere be another three year period that we implement that three-inch mesh net fishery .

I have had , as the Honourable Member knows , numerous people come to me after I had indicated that we would in fact put in place three-inch mesh net fisheries for all of Lake Manitoba . I have had a number of people come to me and voice their concerns. I respect those concerns . The Wildlife Federation , the anglers of Lake Manitoba, some of the tour operators around Lake Manitoba have indicated that they have concerns for the lake, and I think they have concerns.

It is with that in mind that I, only today , indicated to my staff to contact all of the fishermen in the north basin of Lake Manitoba and ask t em what their views are again on the future of the fisheries in Lake Manitob a. After I have heard the results of the questions that they are going to ask-and their question is going to be simple , "Do you want to, or clo you not think you need a three-inch mesh net fisheries on the nor th basin of the lake?" -after I have those results, I will indicate those results to this Legislature . *

(1420) Mr. Uruski: I am very pleased with the Minister 's response to this request in terms of contacting all the fishermen and let the Minister bH informed. I want to ask another question. There has been very little investment up to this point on the northern part of the lake. Now that the Minister is prepared to go with the survey, is he prepared to respect the request s of these fishermen and make a dEJcision based on that survey to exclude the north basin from the south basin, if that is their wishes? Mr. Penner: I think it is too early to tell what the results of the survey will be.

As I had indicated, I would indicat e to this Legislature what the results of that survey will be; and my decision, after those results are in, will be based on whatever reaction we have received due to that survey. Mr. Uruski: Mr. Speaker , I think it is important to understand from the Minister that how people will respond to the survey will be how he will respond in terms of their wishes .

I would like to know what criteria he will use in terms of determining whether or not the fishery will be continued, or in fact whether the wishes of the fishermen will be accepted, because if he is prepared to accept the majority of the fishermen 's views from that survey, then I think fishermen will come out and respond. That is really the question I am raisin!r Mr. Penner: That is a fair quest ion.

I think I need to indicate to the Leg islature that the previous Government implemented a three-inch mesh net fishery in response to two issues: No. 1, there are large numbers of small species of fish in the lake that were deemed to be commercially feasible to harvest, and it proved to be that. Also , there were damages incurred by fishermen due to the storm and the decision was based on that , for that reason , to give these people some income . Howev er, there is another compensation package which has been put in place whi ch will give them compensation for that income.

The interest ing part of the exercise last year was that it added some $400,000 to the income of fishermen on the lake. I do not think we can deny that economical impact to the incomes of the fishermen was very beneficial to the region. That is also part of the decision-making process that will have to be taken into consideration . Small Mesh Net Policy Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): My question is also to the Minister of Natural Resourc es (Mr. Penn er).

Given that in June '87, the three senior officials of the Fisheries sec tion of the Natural Resources Department had recomm ended against a three-inch mesh fishery on the whole of Lake Manitoba - it is '87 now , to the former administration - and for political reasons, they had a very short three-inch mesh season , in the winter of '88 , January or February '88, and the same officials did not change their views -(Interjection)- I see there is a little sensitivity here from the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) , given he was the Minister at the time , Mr. Speaker.

How does this Mini ster explain the decision making to go willy-nilly into a high investment situ atio n to bring in a three-inch mesh fishery onto Lake Manitoba , which has been proven by biologists to be detrimental to the livelihood of that very fishery? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): I It would do the Honourable Memb er opposite well to get his facts straight before he asks these kinds of • questions. I am not sure whether I should even attempt to respond to the question the way it was worded.

The economic impact of the added income to the fishery last year was substa ntial, and I think it is well known , and fish biologists will tell you , that the perch and other species have a very short life span and will die eventually if they are not harvested . So the harvest was permitted and provided the added incomes to th e fisheries which have proved to be of substantial benef it. I think it would do the Honourable Member well to make sure, when he makes the kind of statements or raises the kinds of questions in thi s House, that they are factual. Mr. Speaker: Order , please.

The time for oral questions has expired. * (1430) 2072

Thursday, October 13, 1988 ORDERS OF THE DAY WRI TTEN QUES TI ONS Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East)- - What was the effective date that the Minister of Em ployment Services and Ec onomic Security ordered staff to stop (1) appro ving applications, and (2) accept ing applica tions for the Job Tr aining for To morr ow Prog ram? - How was the public advised tha t the Minister was abolishing the prog ram? - Which organ izations that received fund ing from the program were consu lted by the Minister prior to her decision to cut funding for tha t prog ram? - How much additional social allo wance exp enditur e did the Minister budget for, during her Es timates prepara tions, to cope with increased caseloads of welfare applications as a re sult of rising unemployment and cuts to services for the un em ploy ed? - List the dates on which the Minister decided to cut funding for the Unem pl oyed Help Centr es in Winnipeg and Bra ndon, abolish the Job Training for To mor row Prog ram, and shut down the Wo rkpla ce Inno vation Centre. -W hich municipal Governments in Brandon (and area) were consu lted by the Minister conc e rning her plan to cut funding to the Brandon and Area Unemp loyment He lp · Centre? - List the date and forum that the Minister used to inform the Un ited Way tha t she was cutt ing funding to the Winnipeg Commun ity Un empl oyed Help Centre.

Hon. James McCr ae (Government House Leader): Would you be so kind as to call the Order for Re turn on page 2 of today's Order Paper? Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker , I did not mean to anticipate the Government Hous e Leader (Mr . McCr ae) or you rself, Sir. There is so much confusion and noise, and I thought, when you were sta nding and looking at me, tha t you wanted me to read the Order for Re turn. I appreci ate how you do not read the Written Ques tions. They stand on the Order Paper. I kno w tha t from many years of exp erience. ORDER FOR RETURN NO. 5 Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker , wou ld move, se conded by the MLA for Logan (Ms. Hemphill), THAT an Order of the Hous e do issue for re turn of the following informa tion: (

a) how much rev enue have the Commun ity Unempl oyed Help Centre of Winnipeg and the Unem ployed Help Centre of Brandon and Ar ea ob tained for clie nts from the Unem ployment In su rance Corpor ation each year since they began operat ions in 19 79 and 19 85 respe ctively; and 2073 (

b) how much mone y has the Depa rtment of Employment Services and Ec onomic Security all ocated to each of the Unemplo yed Help Centr es each year since they began opera tions; and (

c) how many clients did each of the Centr es have on an annual basis sinc e the y commenced opera tions; and (

d) how many appl ications has the Minister of Employment Services and Ec onomic Security received in 19 88, and each year the program existed pre viously, from (1) non- profit groups, (2) institutions, and (3) busine sses for the Job Tr aining for To mor row Prog ram; and (

e) how many applications were approved under the program each year from (1) non -profit organ izations, (2) small businesses, and (3) institutions; and (

f) since assu ming office, how many term staff have been term inated or not had their term positions extended by the Minister; and (

g) a li st of the busine sses, institutions and non profit organ izations that told the Minister that they did not bel ieve the program was usefu l; and (

h) a lis t of the non-p rofit organ izations tha t told the Minister there were other programs or funding organ izations tha t the y could use instead of Job Training for Tomorr ow in order to hire young peo ple, th ose over 55 years old, and th ose in spe cial needs categ ories; and (

i) a lis t of the funding organ izations that were approached by the Minister to provide funding for tra ining unem pl oyed people to repl ace tho se who were hired by the program; and (

j) a lis t of the numb er of individuals hired each year under the program for each of the following categ ories: physically disabled, mentally disabled , Na tive, on social ass istance, immigrant, over 55 years old, 41 years old to 50 years old, under 25 years old; and (

k) a lis t of the average duration of jobs approved under the program each year; and (

I) a list of the stat istical stud ies used by the Minister to decide which individuals did not req uir e assistance from the Commun ity Unemp l oyed Help Centr es; and (

m) a lis t of the social agenc ies partially funde d by the Un ited Way tha t the Minister has targeted for cutbacks; and (

n) a li st of the me e tings the Min ister has schedu led with Un ited Way agencie s and the Un ited Way Board to ensur e that futur e pro vincial Go ve rnme nt cuts to social agencies are not made at the be ginning of the annual United Way fund raising drive; and (

o) a lis t of the dates of all mee tings tha t the Minister held with represe ntat ives of the Wo rkpla ce Inno vation Centre, empl oyees, and busine sses who have been cl ients of the

Thursday, October 13, 1988 Centre, prior to her cut ting the funding for the Centre; and (

p) for each year since incep tion, a lis t of the percentage of funding and total amount of funding received by the Work pl ace Inno vation Centre that was ( 1) from th e Ma nitoba Government Employ ees' Associat ion Trust Fu nd, and (2) from the pr ovincial Gove rnment; and (

q) a li st of the dates of all mee tings held by the Minister with representatives of the Manitoba Government Empl oyees' Ass ociation to ex plain why the Minister was shutting down the Wo rkpla ce Inno vation Centre before funds allo cated to th e Centre by the MGE A Trust Fund had expir ed ; and (

r) a lis t of the arran gement s th at the Minister has made to ensure that con tracts alr eady opera ting with the Wo rkpla ce Inno vation Centre and business es will con tinue despite the shutdo wn of the Centr e by the Minister; and (

s) a lis t of the criteria for the revie w of the Wo rkpla ce In novation Centr e commissioned by the Min ister , including participants, individuals interview ed, time period the st udy was conduc ted in, cost, and whether the review was tender ed. MOTION presented. Hon. James McC rae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Mem be r's Order for Re turn is accept able to the Government. QUEST ION put, MOTI ON carried. Mr. McC rae: Mr. Speaker , I move, se conded by the Honour able Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard), tha t Mr.

Speaker do now lea ve the Chair and the House reso lv e itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty. MO TION presente d and carrie d and the Hous e resolv ed itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majes ty , with the Honourable Mem ber for Minnedosa (Mr . Gil leshammer) in the Chair for the Depar tment of Co mmunity Services; and the Honour able Mem ber for Seven Oaks (Mr . Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Agricultur e. • (14 40) CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-COMMU NI TY SERVICES Mr.

Ch airman, Harold Gill eshammer: I call th e Committee on Co mmunity Servi ces to order on sect ion 4(

d) Child Day Car e: Licens es and provide s funding and program sup port to day care facilities and eligible families.

(1) Salaries $1, 341, 10 0.00. Shall the item pass? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Mi nister of Commun ity Services): I have some information for the Mem ber for Ell ice (Ms. Gr ay). She had asked about the average length of stay at Seven Oaks Centre. I can give her the information tha t in '86-87, the average was 16 .2 days and in '87-88, it was 16.6 days. Ms. Avis Gray (E IIice): Fol lo wing up from the ques tions we asked the other day in Es timates, and we were talking about the main task force and the advisory group and ju st to clarif y some of the Min ist er's sta tements.

If I und erstood her sta tements co rrect ly, the Minister is indicating tha t the task force will be resp onsible for developing a mandate and a purpose as to what the advisory gr oups will do and how they will op erate with the task force? Is tha t correct? Mrs. Ol eson: Yes. Ms. Gray: Given that is the situation, could the Minister then tell us what t he rationale was for sugges ting that two advisory groups be formed when th ere seemed to be no thought as to what in fact th ese advisory group s wou ld do? Mrs.

Oleson: I do not fo llo w the Mem ber 's thinkin g on "no thought." The advisory groups are just tha t, advisory groups. The two were chosen to get good representa tion. We could not get rep res enta tion within the six or seven people on the advisory board of all facets of child care, including the parents and the providers. So we felt tha t an advisory committee of users and a committee of providers would be usefu l in helping the task force with the deli bera tions. Ms. Gray: How many people are represented on the two advisory groups? Mrs. Oleson: Five parents and five care providers. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister tell us, was th ere any thought given to having a task force which was made up of 17 mem bers and allo wing tha t task force to make decisions on how the y would operate a group similar to boards of directors who oft entimes have up to 20 members and perhaps still have one committee but then break into su bcommittees? Was th ere a thought given to tha t rather than having two advisory groups of which there does not seem to be a stated purp ose other than the words "to advise" which rea lly does not tell us anything? Mrs.

Oleson: Of cou rse there was tho ught given to various ways in which this could be done. We felt tha t a small representative group cal led the task force cou ld get input from all the others and could form ula te some opin ions and then ask the advice of the advisory committees. There were many ways of doing this, consi dered , but we felt that a small group could probably put together a report and reco mmenda tions probably easier than a large group. Ms. Gray: To clar ify, are the advisory group s to ask advice of the task force or to give advice? Mrs. Oleson: They give advice to the task force.

Some of the parents and providers of care also wou ld not- 2074

Thursday, October 13, 1988 in thinking about this and planning for it we realized and they indicated to us that some of them would not be available on a longer-term basis to act on this task force. They would not be available some times in the day time, to do with , of course, their work. They could be in an advisory capacity but they could not perhaps put in as much time as the task force members. Ms. Gray: Do the advisory groups have any veto power if they feel that the suggestions or recommendations from the task force are contrary to what the advisory groups feel the direction should be? Mrs.

Oleson: I think we discussed this last time. No, they do not have a veto power but they could always indicate to me in some way or other that they had a contrary opinion and make a recommendation of their own if they wanted to . Ms. Gray: The Minister has outlined and in information given to the House has stated some of the main areas that this ta sk force would be dealing with . My understanding is that this task force will be looking at the non-profit day care system and the implications of private day care .

Could the Minister tell us-given that her department has already set a specific direction as to where day care should go in this province , what if the task force comes up with recommendations which are contrary to the directions set by this department? Mrs. Oleson: Then we will have to take that under consideration. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us these recommendations of the task force , are they there to do a job which then will be acted upon? Mrs. Oleson: They are recommendations and, of course, we cannot prejudge what the recommendations are or whether or not they could be acted on immediately.

The task force is there to make recommendations. It is up to the Government whether they implement those recommendations. It would be hard to say now whether we would or we would not because we do not know what the recommendations are yet. *

(1450) Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us how are the spaces going to be allocated amongst the various day cares? What process is going to take place or what process has taken place? Mrs. Oleson: Could the Member tell us which spaces she is referring to? Is it this year 's spaces or-could you clarify it, please? Ms. Gray: I am referring to any spaces that would be allocated for this year and if there has been a change in terms of process, what the Minister foresees as far as how spaces are allocated in the coming fiscal years? Mrs. Oleson: Mr.

Chairman , we have allocated that out of 420 that we had announced , 100 for rural and shift workers . Of the 320 others, the allocation is 185 to schools , 75 to previous commitments , and 60 to expansion of day cares. Then the added private subsidies that would go to children in private centres, the 500 extra subsidies that we had announced earlier. In future , we would be allocating them probably on the recommendation of the task force , or possibly I should say on the recommendations of the task force. They may have some recommendations of how these should be allocated in the future. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister clarify what she means by 185 spaces to schools? What exactly is she referring to there ? Mrs. Oleson: There have been schools built over the last year or so that have day care centres in them . Some of them are just coming on stream now this fall and later this year, depending on where they are in their building program. But that was an initiative that was already on stream, those spaces had already been built and we were allocating spaces to them. Ms.

Gray: Have those day cares been told , these new day cares, have they been told that in fact they have been allocated so many spaces and that it is in the budget? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, letters have gone out to those centres. Ms. Gray: Would the Minister provide a list for us where these 185 spaces are? Mrs. Oleson: In Brandon, at Kirkcaldy Heights, there are 5 spaces; and Transcona, Joseph Teres, 40; and North Winnipeg , Meadows West , 40; and Stanley Knowles , 40 . Also in Lac du Bonnet at Centennial School, 23 and in Brandon at King George, 36. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister tell us, is there not a day care that is hoping to open in Russell , Manitoba? Mrs. Oleson: That will be in the next fiscal year. The school has just commenced construction . Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, the 75 previously committed spaces , where those spaces are? Mrs. Oleson: The Busy Bee Day Care and Our Day Care in Brandon , 0-u-r . Ms. Gray: With the 500 private-it is the subsidies for private centres, how will it be determined where and who will receive those subsidies and which children would receive those subsidies? Mrs.

Oleson: It will be initially up to 25 percent per centre of existing private centres and home s for subsidized spaces . They would have to apply for the subsidy and, of course, they would have to qualify for the subsidy. Ms. Gray: To clarify, the Minister is indicating " they " would have to app ly for the subsidy. Who is she referring to? 2075

Thursday, October 13, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: Parents would have to apply for the subsi dy. Ms. Gray: Is th ere any role or res ponsi bility of the pr ivate day cares in regard to wha t the y should be doing in order to ensur e or to hope tha t they would get 25 percent of subsid ized childr en at their centre? Mrs. Ol eson: The y wou ld encou rage the parents to apply and there has been a sem inar for tho se people to explain the system to them. Th ey wou ld appl y to the day care office and the y would have to qua lify. Ms.

Gray: Current ly, and moving to talk a bit about the educational system and the trai ning of child care workers, there cer tainly has been some rec ognition over the la st few years tha t with tra ining tha t we do have a shor tf all of trained child care workers. This cer tainly is evidenced as well in ru ral Manitoba where, at the Assiniboine Com munity Coll ege, there are so many spaces and people on the waiting li st and there have been particular problems tha t have been ident ified in reg ard to ho w do we get mor e people into tra ining, particula rly in rural Manitoba.

Is the Minister aware of some of the se concerns, and what initiat ives has her department set forth or beg un in regard to deal ing with this real problem in reg ard to trained child care workers? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I am aware of the problem and tha t is one thing I have asked the task force to look at. There are shor tfal ls due to staff turno ver and need for more trai ning cou rses, and I recog nize that is a problem. There is a trai ning cou rse, I bel ieve, now at Red River.

There is another tra ining cou rse tha t just started , I think it was la st we ek, under my other department in the New Careers Pr ogram tha t is tra ining 20 day care workers in family day care, so tha t will help some of the st rain of ne ed ing trai ning. But I do rec ogn ize tha t ther e is a problem and we will have to address it I have asked the task force to take a look at that. Ms. Gray: Has th ere been a thought to increase the numb er of spaces at Red River or ACC for th ese individuals taking tra ining? Mrs. Oleson: The Minis ter of Education (Mr .

Derka ch) is also inter ested in what the task force has to say about this, and the two departments will ha ve to get together and discuss the need s. Ms. Gray: Has the Minister's own department done any work, or is the Minister aware and does she have some informa tion herself as to what some of the difficultie s would be in increa sing spaces, particularly at ACC? Mrs. Oleson: Available funds would be one of the major problems, and ther e was no tra ining program in pl ace for us to implement this fall any extra tra ining programs, so tha t we will have to look at that for next fiscal year. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister tell us, is not one of the real conc erns as well th at in fact, even if there were available funds- let us no t say if th ere were- if it was decided tha t available funds would be given to Assiniboine Community College, in fact th ere is a great stress pla ced on the rural day care system to pr ovide pr acticum experienc es for the child care workers, and th at in fact this is one of the real dilemma s?

How do you increase the num ber of spaces at Assiniboine Community College when part of the practicum involves being in day care set tings, and the current day care cent res in ru ral Manitoba are being taxed and probably canno t take on any mor e students? Is the Minister aware of this and does she have the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach) is shaking his head . I am not quite sure why since tha t informati on cer tainl y come s from people who are kno wledgeable with the commun ity col lege system and in day care.

I am wo ndering if the Minister's department has had any discus sions with the Manitoba Child Care Ass ociation or Assiniboine Commun ity Col lege and the Department of Education in regard to this real probl em in ru ral Manitoba. Mrs. Oleson: have me t with the Child Care Associa tion. They did not raise this as an issue, but I will take tha t un der advisement because the Memb er raises probably a valid point. I can discuss tha t with the Minister of Educa tion as wel l, but it has not been raised to me as an issue. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister tell us, with the numb er of day care spaces, how many spaces are all ocated for childr en with special needs? * (1 500) Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, ther e are about 300 childr en who are ident ified as need ing physical and mental needs and about 800 in general special needs. This year, we added funds for another 40 childr en with special needs. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, any of th ose 40 spaces, would th ose be spaces available through the day cares at the Socie ty for Manitobans with Disabil ities? Mrs. Oleson: No, it is in community-based day care. Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister tell us what her departm ent's polic y is in reg ard to seg regated versus integ rated day care sett ings for childr en with special needs? Mrs. Oleson: Could the Mem ber repeat the ques tion? I am sor ry. Ms. Gray: Wo uld the Minis ter tell us what her depa rtme nt's pol icy is in regard to integ rated versus seg regated day cares for chil dren with special needs? Mrs. Oleson: We pr omo te parental cho ice, but the majority of the special needs childr en are in a reg ular day care. 2076

Thursday, October 13, 1988 Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, has she had the oppor tunit y to meet with the So ciety for Manitobans with Disabilit ies and discuss spe cifically their pres chool program and their day care service? Mrs. Oleson: I have met with the gr oup. I also have visited the presc hool for childr en with disabil ities. I belie ve it was the open ing of their newly renov ated premis es. I think tha t was the occasion I was there. I also visited the Sign Talk Day Care which is in the same building. I was given a tour and given a briefing of their special facilities. lt was very interes ting.

Ms. Gray: The Minister has mentioned her depar tment suppor ts parental cho ice. Could she elabor ate on the policy about integra tion versus seg rega tion of childr en with special needs? Mrs. Oleson: What I meant by cho ice was peo ple can choose the pla ce tha t the y go. They are not forced to use commun ity day care if they want to use the special day care and vice versa. As much as pos sible, we try to accommodate where people want to have their childr en . Ms. Gray: In reg ard to reso ur ces, support and funding, where is this department putting its re sou rces?

Is it putting resou rces into integ rated day care set tings or into the segreg ated day care set tings? Mrs. Oleson: We st ill su pport of cou rse the Socie ty of Manitobans with Disabil ities Pres chool because tha t at one point was the only facility available. They have 16 0 there at pr esen t. We of cou rse are suppor ting, as we have indicated in giving the figures for suppor t of day care spaces, sup port integ rated spaces as we ll. Ms.

Gray: With childr en with special needs who are in re gular day cares, what is the polic y in reg ard to that day care centr e in terms of trained staff to deal with th ose special needs childr en? Mrs. Oleson: We want to encou rage all the staff to work with the child. We do not single out one staffperson to deal with a special needs child. Everyo ne in tha t centre wou ld, at some point, deal with the child. There wo uld not be any diffe rence made, wher ever possi ble of cour se, of the needs of that child. Ms.

Gray: Then in regard to childr en with spe cial needs, there are no policie s or re gula tions or guideli nes in reg ard to staf fing on th ose special needs childr en ; so, in fact, you could have 50 perce nt of the childr en with spe cial needs and there would be no conside ration given for extra staffi ng or a par ticula r type of trained staff? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, we do have a hand book of policie s tha t we could supply to the Mem ber later if she wishes to have it. We do supply additional staff through special gr ants to ensure th at there are enough staff to take care of the childr en in the centre.

Of course, if ther e is someone with spe cial needs there, the re are extra staff all ocated where it is nee ded. Ms. Gray: How many childr en with special need s in a particular centre? Is there a certa in number of childr en who wo uld need to be at that centre in order to qual ify for one extra staffp ers on? Mrs. Oleson: Generally two or th ree, but it is based on an assess ment of what that centre can handle. Ms.

Gray: If a centre has spaces for thr ee special needs childr en and they have a staffperson becaus e of th ose spec ial needs childr en and then a par ticular child for whatever reason moves out of that par ticula r day care centre, does that affect the staf fing ratio at all of that centre? Mrs. Oleson: 1t may change and it may not. The whole thing wo uld have to be reassessed if there was some movement of childr en in and out. Ms.

Gray: Therefore, wou ld I be co rrect in assu ming then it wo uld be beneficial for th ose particular day care centr es to keep their numbers up, shall we say, of special needs childr en so that they could maintain their staff? Mrs. Oleson: There is no rigid fo rmula. There is no incentiv e par ticula rly . The whole thing is based on the needs of the child. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairper son, I am wondering if the Minister could indicate to us, going back to the day care spaces, she said the re is an expan sion of 60.

Could she tell us, are th ose 60 spaces in ur ban Manitoba, in Winnipeg, or are th ose also part of what would be allo cated to rural Manitoba? Mrs. Oleson: In rur al Manitoba, ther e are 13 spaces all ocated , and in Winnipeg 47, for a total of 60. The spaces are assigned with a view to financial viability of the centre because ob viously some cent res cou ld not oper ate with too few spaces. So you have to keep tha t in mind when you are allo cating spaces, to keep the centre viable. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister tell us, in regard to the 500 su bsidies for the private cent res, what monitoring system will be put in pla ce to ensur e tha t since these priv ate cent res which are profit centr es will be subsid ized, tha t the su bsidization, the dolla rs going to tho se centres, will be used for the care of the child and not be diverted into the profit end? Mrs. Ol eson: The subsidy that we all ocate is less than what the centre could charge for someone else so that is one thing but we also do spot audits.

There are also minimum licensing standards and attend ance reports, and we would encou rage and get fe edback from the parents, whether or not th ey were satisfied with the care. Ms. Gray: The Minister has indicated ther e are spot audits and tha t her department would rely on feed back from the parents.

How does a spot audit at the centre cer tain ly, that wo uld be able to give you indication as to whether tha t centre was conform ing with sta ndards in regard to care, staff ratios, type of food provided , safety, et c., but how would spot audits assist day care staff, as in the depart mental day care staff, in 2077

Thursday, October 13, 1988 determining whether dollars are bHing used for the care of the children or whether those dollars are being siphoned off for profit ? Mrs. Oleson: The spot audit would check their licensing, would check their operation of the centre, check what meals were being offered, generally the operation of the centre to be sure that the children are getting the care that they were supposed to be getting. Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): I have a few brief questions to the Minister with respect to northern day care services, and would start out by just asking her generally , where does the provision of day care services in northern Manitoba fit into the Government's list of priorities with respect to day care. Mrs. Oleson: That was one of the main reasons for calling together or putting together a task force was to study rural-and that would of course include northern-day care, to see if we will get some information on how we could best serve the needs of the people in the North.

That was going to be partly addressed by the funds that the federal Government had in their day care plan , but o'f course that did not go through before the election unfortunately . So we will have to see for the future whether that is reintroduced or not. I am sure it will be, and there were funds in that. No, that is one of the prioriti es, to have a look at the delivery of child care outside of the City of Winnipeg . We are interested, of cours e, in the City of Winnipeg , but to address the concerns of p1wple in the rural and northern areas.

I appreciate , of course, the Member being from a northern area, he may be able to give me some ideas of just what the ne,ads are there himself. *

(1510) Mr. Cowan: I am looking quickly at the list of providers and parent advisors that are named to the Day Care Task Force, and see one from the Ma Mawi Wi Chi ltata Centre as being the only one who I would recognize as possibly being from the North . I would ask the Minister then, without trying to research it carefully because I have only looked at it very quickly , if there are others in that group who would be from northern Manitoba . Mrs .

Oleson: The task force intends to do some travelling and visit other points outside of the City of Winnipeg, so they would be able to get some input from the North on that , and they would make a special attempt to hear the views of those people. Mr. Cowan: The question was a bit more specific , and that was - what participants on the task force are from northern Manitoba? Mrs. Oleson: The furthest north it goes is Parklands . That Member, I am sure, would have some input to do with northern Manitoba.

I recognize it was hard to put together a task force that covered every facet , and I do recognize that there will be some input from the North, and I am sure that we will find a way to get it. Mr. Cowan: Is the Minister satisfied then , with the situation that would have no direct participants, if I understand her correctly, on the task force from northern Manitoba? Mrs. Oleson: We cannot have complete representation on a small task force.

I do recognize what the Member is saying but there can be input and that is the important thing , to get the input from people as to how they see day care in the province , and how they think it could be improved. So, as I said before, we will certainly be encouraging input from all parts of Manitoba. Mr. Cowan: Is it too late to have representation from the North appointed to that task force? Mrs. Oleson: The task force is already meeting and commenc ing their work, but as I said before there is certainly nothing to prevent input.

If the Member wants to give me a name of someone who they could contact directly for advice on how or where to have a meeting in the North or anything else, I would he glad to hear , from him. Mr. Cowan: What does the Minister see as the value of having someone representing the private sector in day care participate as a member of the task force? Mrs. Oleson: We wanted to get a cross-section of the different types of day care centres and that is one of them.

I could say to the Member , if he thought it would be useful that if he would like to suggest someone, we could investigate adding someone from the North to the advisory group, if that would be helpful. Mr. Cowan : I would ask the-I appreciate tha t last comment and we will discuss that a bit further in a moment. I would ask another question of the Minister then. What does she see as being the value of having someone who specifically is identified as representing the rural community being a participant on the task force? Mrs.

Oleson: The rural problems were one of the ones ~ that we identified and we want to have somebody from the rural area on the task force to ensure representati o n. Mr. Cowan: What special problems does the Minister perceive to be facing northern child care centres'' Mrs.

Oleson: I probably cannot answer specifically because I do not have the advantage of having lived in the North, but I would perceive one of the problems would be small communities, it would be similar to southern rural communities where size of the community to facilitate a day care -Ad ded to that , of course, would be the immense distances , and so forth . There are all kinds of problems that perhaps the Member would like to identify for me that I may not have thought of. Mr. Cowan: But those are the problems that jump to mind specifically when I ask a question of the Minister. Is that the case? Mrs.

Oleson: There are also the problems of getting someone to an area where there is training , there is 2078

Thursday, October 13, 1988 the cost of tr avel. There are a great many things, of cou rse, tha t enter into it. Mr. Cowan: Is it the intention of the Minister tha t the task force, when it comes forward with its rep ort, would address th ose specific problems in some detail and in a comprehensiv e fashion? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I wou ld expe ct so. Mr. Cowan: I do no t want to belabour the issue, but I do want to make a couple of specific points and then see if I cannot firm up a commitment from the Minister with respect to the actual task force itself.

One is, while rural and no rthern com mun ities do sh are some char acteris tics, each of them have problems that are different from the other . You canno t lum p no rthern communities in with ru ral communities in a task force or a report, and expect tha t you will be able to, in a general fashion, address all their specific problems with the same general approa ch. You have to first ly , th erefore, ident ify what the specific problems are for each of the types of communities.

I am not going to atte mpt to address the problems for rur al commun ities but I wo uld ima gine that the rur al makeup of the province is much similar to the nor thern make -up, in the sense that th ere are different types of communities in the rural part of the province. There are some very small communities, ther e are some larger communities. There are some communities that are based entir ely around agricultur e. There are some tha t are based less so arou nd agricultur e.

In the No rth you have even starker differences between the different types of communities, because you have what Thoma s Berger talked about, a frontier and a home land. You have homeland communities which are your trad itional communities, which are primarily Metis se ttlements, Nor thern Affairs commun ities and In dian reserves. You have your frontier commun ities which are your industrial communities, which are th ose that are lo cated in and about an industrial activity, whether it be mining, hydro-elect ric de vel opment, or a port.

Those commun ities have very differe nt needs and would benefit by very differe nt appr oaches to their specific problems. Although some general appr oaches may address some of their mor e general needs, you will have to break any rec ommenda tions of the task fo rce and any solutions coming out of the task force down into more detail to add ress the mor e detailed probl ems. You also within tho se communitie s have some major differences as wel l. When you talk about the industrial communities, you have communities that are quite large by comparison, Thomps on, Flin Flan and The Pas.

You have communities that are quite small by comparis on, which would be commun ities in my own constituen cy, such as Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids, Chur chill, Gillam, Sun dance, which is a commun ity of a tem por ary nature but should be incl uded in any review of child care needs at this point in time.

So you have th ose differe nces tha t have to be taken into considera tion. • (1 520) When you move over to the trad itional communities, you have Metis communities versus Ind ian reserves, which are total ly different in respect to governanc e issues and also res pon sibility and jurisdictional issues with respect to the provincial, federal and the local self go vern ments. You have la rge reserves and small reserves. You have reserves that are in some instanc es larger than the industrial communities, such as Split Lake, and you have reserves that are quite small, such as Tadoule Lake or Lac Br ochet.

You then have reserves tha t are con nected by the road and you have reserves that are not conn ected by the road . Until rec ently , you even had one reserve that did not have an airstrip, although that was rect ified a couple of years ago. The point I am trying to make is tha t because of their loca tion, because of the infras tructure, the transportation infrast ructur e particularly which serves them, the y have very different needs and will demand very different responses to th ose needs.

The point I am tryi ng to make, ther efore , is that th ere should not be just one Mem ber from the No rth on the task force but ther e should probab ly, at the very minimum, be two Me mbers from the No rth, one rep res enting the industrial communities in the No rth and the other rep res enting the remote or traditional communities in the Nor th. I am not as familiar with the struc tur e of the task force as are others in this room, particularly the two critics. My col leag ue, the Member for St. Johns (Ms.

Wasyly cia-Leis) has indicated to me that the suggest ion of a participant on the Advisory Committee wou ld probably not be as use ful as it wou ld be on the task force itself. I am going to let her go into tha t in mor e de tail. I do want to very str ongly re commend that th ere be two rep rese ntativ es from no rthern Manitoba appoint ed as soon as possi ble to the task force, at the highest level of decision-making on the task force. However it is structur ed , they should be at the highest lev el.

I say tha t because they will bring conside rable insight and I wou ld hope very subs tantiv e sugge stions as to how to improve child care in the Nor th. I do not belie ve ther e is anyone in the room that wou ld disagree with me when I say that child care in the North is probably und erdev elop ed in comparison with other parts of the provi nce. lt is an area that the pr evious administra tion was trying to grapple with and I think making some prog ress. Although while we were able to accompli sh a lot, there is much more that needed to be done.

We were work ing on the ans wers to some of th ose mo re specific problems. In order to carr y on tha t momentum, it is my strong rec ommenda tion, I would hope to have a firm commitment from the Minister that at lea st two represe ntativ es from nor thern Manitoba be appointed to the task force at the highest lev el.

I want to, in suppor ting why I think tha t is necessary, relate to the Minister my own involv ement, lim ited as it was, with a day care in a community tha t probably would not have had a day care un less th ere was some very aggressiv e action on the part of the communit y itself, and I think some aggressive action on the part of the provinc e in res ponding to that. I want to tell her how that has changed that community a bit. I am talking 2079

Thursday, October 13, 1988 about one of my favou rite commun ities. I gue ss when you repr esent an area with over 16 commun ities, one should not pick out one as a favourite but I do have favour ites for different reas ons. I have to tell you tha t with 16 commun ities, I have 16 favourit es. Mrs. Oleson: I do in my constituenc y, too. Mr. Cowan: I am cert ain tha t we share tha t str ength and tha t failing, both the Minister and I.

But ther e is one tha t I think very much about because the needs are so press ing and the co mmunity is trying so very hard to meet those needs and tha t is South Ind ian Lake, a community th at has been disru pted by hydro development in the past, a very strong commun ity, a community tha t is becom ing stronger over time. it was a numb er of years ago tha t the community decided the y wanted to put a day care in pla ce. Because of the natur e of the communit y, the y had to go through all sorts of trials and tribula tions in trying to meet criteria.

I have to compliment not only the pre vious administra tion, which I am prone to do, but I also have to compliment the staff who were involv ed in tha t as we ll because I think the y worked very hard to make cer tain th at this co mmunity was able to develop a day care co-op for itself. The y did tha t over the period of a year. I belie ve it took about a year in total from start to finish, probably a bit more if one talks about the prel iminary talks when it was just an idea.

From the time the co mmun ity actually started wor king and de veloping and desig ning the propo sal and incorpora ting the co-op to the time the y actually opened the door, it was probably about a year. That community, because of that day care, has be gun to take on a different approach to child care issues in the community. I think tha t it is ser ving the resi dents of the community very we ll.

I think it is also pr oviding an educa tional component to commun ity life th at starts childr en early, motivates them towards their school activities and makes cer tain tha t the y have a bit of a and I am probably using a trademark name- head start by the time they get into school. lt also rel ieves some of the pressures on the famil ies in the community, a community which has had far too many pressures as I have said before, because of the dislocation re sulting from Hydro de velopment in the area.

The individuals in tha t commun ity, and I think it was probably if not a pilo t pr oject , we probably tr eated it that way in the first instance in order to get it off the grou nd. it was cer tainly a model for similar day care co-ops or day care non-pr ofit centr es in other communities throughout the North. What is unfor tuna te is we probably have not used the model enough as a way to encou rage other communities to form th ose sorts of day cares.

So what I would like to see happen and I will not give the Member a name, but I would like to see somebody from tha t co mmuni ty who was involv ed in th at day care, particula rly one of the community re sidents, participate in the task force because I belie ve the y can bring some good insights and sug ges tions based on act ual experience that would help other communities in the North of follo wing their modeL There is also another day care co-op in one of my favo ur ite commun itie s and it is in an ind ustrial community, tha t is Gillam.

The Minister will note that I am refer encing possi ble par tici pants and repr esentat ives from my own constituenc y. There may be other s in northern Manitoba tha t would merit conside ration as we ll, but she asked me for some advice and I wou ld suggest tha t there are some very strongly committed people from the day care co-op in Gillam tha t could also be one which could sit on tha t task force.

Again, th ey face some different problems from other communities, cer tainly different problems than the South Indian Lake commun ity did and the y have develop ed some expert ise and some experience which could be helpful to others. So my first que st ion following tha t introduction to the Min ister is: can we have from her a firm commitment that she will have participants from both trad itional co mmunities in the North and industrial communities in the North, one from ea ch, involved with the task force as full members of the task force at the highest level of research and decis ion-making? • (1 530) Mrs.

Oleson: I can say to the Mem ber tha t I can take it und er considera tion, tha t I will consider it. I also wou ld un dertake to write to the Chair of the task force and indicate to her to make sure that the task force goes to a nor thern commun ity-a t least one. I wou ld not limit it to one, as many as th ey possi bly can of the northern commun ities to hear the views of the people. I was inter ested in the remarks of the Mem ber, he pointed out of cou rse the difficult ies in dea ling with child care in the Nor th very succinctly and I was interested to hear that.

I will be interested to have a look at the one he is ref erri ng to in South Ind ian Lake, I bel ieve he said, the model tha t co mmunity used for sett ing up a child care co-o p. As the Mem ber kno ws, the main initiative has to come from a community in any ven tur e like this because th at is what makes it go. The commun ity has to be dedicated to wha t the y are doing and willing to put a lot of time and effort into it to make it go.

Tha t is re ally , I gue ss, the very bottom lin e of most thin gs in any community. it has to have community involvement and the will to make it work and th at is what makes it work. But I will tell the Mem ber th at I will consider his propo saL Mr. Cowan: Mr . Ch airman, th ere is under considera tion -a nd then there is under conside rat ion and tha t is why I phrased my qu estion very definit ively and I appreciate the distance tha t the Minister has gone to ind icate tha t she will now take it under considera tion, but I want to, in a gentle and a helpful way, perhaps pur sue this a bit furt her.

What reasons wou ld the Minister have for not appointing an individual from the trad itional North, rep res enting tr aditional commun ities in the Nor th, an ind ividual from rep res enting industrial communities in the North? I gue ss perhaps I can un derstand better her hesita ncy 2080

Thursday, October 13, 1988 to give an immediate ans wer if I kn ew what it was she was conc erned about with respect to an affirmative re spo nse to a very rea sonable req uest. Mrs. Oleson: I have to think of the parameters of the costs and so forth of the task force and I would like to discuss it with the task force chairperson and so for th. I cer tainly have nothing against the people he is rec ommending and as I said I cannot re ally give him a defin itive answer. I think he should be aware of that, that I will take it under conside ration. Mr.

Cowan: I appr eciate the ans wer but I am aware that the Minister can give a de finit ive answer. Mrs. Oleson: I cannot really give him a def initive answer. I think he should be aware of tha t. I will take it under considera tion. Mr. Cowan: I appr eciate the answer, but I am aware that the Minister can give a defin itive answer. The Minister could say, yes , I am going to do that. The cost is going to be a factor. That is what always mitigates against the North and the ru ral part of the province is tha t the cost of ge tting there, the cost of bringing people in is always a problem.

Therefore, it takes some special commitment on the part of the province, the pr ovincial Go ve rnment, the fed eral Government, any level of Go vern ment, to ensur e tha t the interests of the Nor th and the interests of the rur al communit ies are consider ed and dealt with when task fo rces of this natur e unde rtake a particular pr oject. So, I do not accept the cost factor as being a major problem. Mrs. Oleson: lt is one. Mr. Cowan: The Minister said it is one factor, and she gave me two. I think I see her agre eing tha t cost should not be a major conside ration.

I would sugge st to her that there is a cost of not doing it, which should be a major conside ration. When one deals with cost, one also has to deal with -1 will use an eco nomic term here and I hope it fits - lost opportun ities. When you have a task force tha t is set in pla ce to undertake the type of research and review tha t this task force has been mandated to do and when you go through all the effort and the expense, because there is an expense involv ed in the task force to set it up in this way, you want it to come fo rward with the best report possible.

You only get one kick at the cat when you do this sort of task force, because you canno t continually redo them, although I no te there have been a large numb er of task forces on day care in the past. One would hope that this one, now that we are into it, would come out with some very definit ive rec ommendations. If you do not have Nor therner s involv ed , I think you would be doing a disservice to the work tha t the task force is suppo sed to un dertake and a disservice to the North. I kno w the Minister would be extremely upset if ther e were not ru ral members on that task force.

I kno w tha t she wou ld probably- let us switch positions here. If I were in her position and she were in my position , I 2081 kno w she would probably be harder on me that I am being right now if there were not rural members on that task force. She indicates tha t she probably wou ld and -y ou know what? -she wo uld be right and I would be wrong in that instance. I may not admit I wou ld be wrong and I may no t admit she would be right, but I think history wo uld show tha t she wou ld have been right and I would have been wr ong.

I am also concerned that there is not a strong northern component of that task force. I think, by not having it on the task force, some thing is going to happen . Either you will not have the No rth fully considered in the work of the task force, or you will have some forays into the communities by the task force which real ly canno t give them the type of information and kno wledge tha t they req uire about the special needs of the North.

You will come back with a prod uct that, while it is not comple tely ignor ed, it is only half conside red by no t having someone on the task force at every point in time talking about the North. I make the exam ple that until I came in here to talk about this day care task force -a nd perhaps we have just started ta lking about it-1 do not bel ieve anyone had add ressed the nor thern issues. The reas on I do address the no rthern issues is because I am very familiar with them and I am here to repr esent my constituents who are No rtherners.

I come in her e with a special bias and with some experience and limited expertise in the field. Your task force is like this group here. Un less you have someone on tha t task force who is ther e spe aking out for the North with experience and expertise, you are going to miss some of the northern issues tha t should be discussed and dealt with. You will not have the appropria te focus.

You have very good staff who will pr ovide assistance to a task force, but the y will no t be able to give you the same sort of experience as that mother in South Indian Lake who labour ed long and hard and went up against a lot of barrier s and some time s argued with me from time to time to make cer tain tha t the special needs of their community were addressed by their own day care co-o p.

You will not have tha t experienc e from the same mother in Gill am or whatever communities in the North you chose, because I think as long as you had two on there, you wou ld be mee ting the criteria which I would ho pe to see addressed , and th at is looking at both the industrial and the tra ditional commun ities in the North and their needs. lt is necessary because one of the ques tions I get when I go into the commun ities is, when are we going to get some day care? I have said, as a previous adminis tra tion, we had accomplis hed a lot.

Wel l, perhaps we did not accomplish as much as we wanted to, I can guarantee you that. There st ill is a lot of un met need . So I wo uld ask the Minister , no w that we have ruled out cost as a major considera tion, if the other mem bers of the task force were vetted first with the task force chairperson before they were appointed . Mrs. Oleson: No. I should have adde d that the Member should realize, of cou rse, tha t th ese are Cabi net

Thursday, October 13, 1988 appointments. I could not unilaterally say that so and so or anyone or so many peop le were going to be added to the task force because it would have to go to Cabinet. I should also remind the Member that it was very difficult, shall we put it that way, to get a representation from every area of Manitoba and every group, so there may be others who feel that they should be on as well. But I will take it under consideration. That is pretty well the best I can do for the Member today because , as I remind him, they are Cabinet appointments. Mr.

Cowan: Not wishing to belabour the point, I want to make just a couple of more points then. We have ruled out cost as being a major consideration . We have also, I think, agreed that there is a cost to not having someone from the North on there that has to be considered with respect to lost opportunity. Just one final point on that, you will have to get that input from the North sooner or latter . Mrs. Oleson: Of course , we int end to. •

(1540) Mr. Cowan: You will have to, so you might as well do it now when you have got the structure in place and the efficiencies of a task force available to you, rather than try to go and get it in an ad hoc method later on . I think there is a major cost to not proceeding with the suggestion. We now know that the task force chairperson was not involved or at least the names were not vetted with the task force chairperson when the original appointments were made.

If there was an oversight without someone from the North on there, it should not be necessary to vet them with the task force chairperson again, so that problem has been dealt with . Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman , I did not mean that I would have to vet the names with the chairperson. Wh at I meant was I would have to discuss with her additions of any kind or changes to the task force because she is the chairperson. I did not mean I would have to run the names past her to see if she liked them. That was not what I meant . Mr.

Cowan: I understand then the Minister is saying that she would not feel comfortable going to the chairperson of the task fo rce and saying, I am sorry, when we put this together- Mrs. Oleson: I did not say that . I said I would discuss with her any additions that wou ld be made. Mr. Cowan: The Minister indic ates that she did not say that. She would discuss with her any additions. My assumption is that she would go to her and say, look , there has been an oversight that has been brought to my attention. I would like to have two people from the North on there.

I cannot possib ly see the task force chairperson taking offence at that. I do not know the individual to the extent where I could say that categorically or definitively, but I cannot see it being the case. So that one has been ruled out as a problem. Cabinet appo intment s, yes, task forces are appointed by Cabinet. So I guess I am going to rephrase my question to the Minister .

Is the Minister prepared to recommend to Cabinet strongly that two representatives from northern Manitoba, one from the indu stria l communities and one from the traditional communities , be appointed to the Day Care Task Forc e to take into account all of the considerations which we have laid before the committee today? Mrs. Oleson: I will certainly discuss it with my colleagues in Cabinet . Mr. Cowan: This is not going as well as I thought it would .- (Interjection)- Well, the Minister says, with my experience, I know what ans wers you can give and what answers you cannot .

Yes, I do know what answers you can give and what answers you cannot, and I know that you can say, yes, I will recommend this strongly to my colleagues. I know that you can say that. That is an answer that is within the mandate of any Minister sitting in the committee . As a matter of fact , she has in the past demanded of Ministers in other Governments that they give that sort of assurance, and in some instances they did and in some instances they did not. She shakes her head , yes, that was the case .

So we are both speak ing from a common base of experience here , and that experience tells us that she can make that recommendation. So I am going to push for that commitment knowing full well that , if I do not get it, that in itself is a statement. That in itse lf is a problem . But having said that , the Minister indicated ear lier that she would recommend that the task force-well , first, she said the task force is going to do some travelling. I took from that an assumption that it would be travelling into the North .

She then said that she will specifically write to the chairperson to ensure that it does travel into the North . At that point, she said , into a northern community , and then she corrected herself and said , not just one community. I would ask the Minister then which communities she would recommend to the task force they visit in the North . Mrs. Oleson: I would ask the task force to take a look at and visit those communities that they could. It would be very difficult for them to visit every community.

The Member has made a couple of suggestions today that they could very well be the centres they choose , but I have to leave these things up to the task force to decide on their agenda and what they can fit in in the short time made availab le to them to perform this duty. Mr. Cowan: I did mention two specific communitie s and I did not , by having not specifically mentioned the other communities, want to imply that I did not have a whole number of other favourite communities in the North , so I am going to put them on the record. I will sound like a travelling - Mrs. Oleson: Travelogu e. Mr.

Cowan: -road show, or perhaps a long list, I will sound like a conductor reading out a long list of station s 2082

Thursday, October 13, 1988 although not all of them are on the rail line . But I know there are needs in all these communities . I am speaking only on behalf of my own constituency so , rather than read into the record all the different names starting maybe I will do it anyway , it makes me feel better .

But there are needs in Tadoule Lake , there are needs in Lac Brochet, particularly in Tadoule Lake and Lac Brochet, communities that are not well serviced by agencies to begin with , and they have special needs that have to be dealt with along with the community of Shamattawa , which are really quite isolated and remote and have all sorts of potential that could be fulfilled by a cooperative development of child care in those communities. There is Churchill. Gillam has day care but they want more spaces, and I am certain the Minister has been made aware of that.

There is llford, there is Pikwitonei along the rail line that could possibly use some child care facilities . When I mention those communities , the last two particularly which are quite small communities and sort of a mix between a Melis community and an industrial because they are rail line communities , but primarily Metis and Indian people live there . Those are communities that could have a somewhat unique approach that would be a different model than what we already have in place . It might be even more cost efficient to meet some of their special needs .

So we are not talking about the standard child care centre there . We may be talking about something innovative and much more responsive to the actual needs of the community. In Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids, I had constituents come to me and ask for day care spaces in those communities . There are communities like Granville Lake and Split Lake and York Landing that require child care facilities .

There are communities like Bird and Sundance that require child care facilities, although Sundance is a community that, if the Government does not proceed with Conawapa, it may not require all those child care facilities for all that long. It would be nice, while they are still quite active with Limestone, to have something in place there . The Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) here is aware of some of the special needs of children in Sundance with respect to the school year and how the circumstances of that community sometimes make community residents think of different and innovative solutions to some of their needs , and also of course is the Government to consider those. I am certain that they could be taken into account with any sort of program. Those are the communities in my own constituency , Granville Lake being another small one. I hope I have not missed any.

If I do, all due apologies to them, in keeping a list of them as I went through , all due apologies to those communities . Those are the types of communities that in fact could benefit by some very pro gressive and reform-oriented recommendations coming out of this task force. Having had that on the record , I know that the task force cannot go into all the communities but I would hope that it would be able to go into at least a very good cross -section of communi ties in the North . I am not certain how many communit ies in the rural area that the task force is intending to visit.

Maybe I should ask the question of the Minister. Does she know as to their

schedule there or does she have any recommendations that she is going to be making to those communities? *

(1550) Mrs. Oleson: The task force is going to be getting together next week to start to set up their schedule. They have not indicated to me exactly where they are going. They will be going into rural communities and, as I have indicated before , into the North. They hope to get a good cross-section of the province . I am sure that Member is aware they cannot visit every community. There are a lot of communities in my constituency I would like them to visit too , but they probably will not because of time constraints and because they cannot be everywhere.

They will visit and , in the southern communities , it will be easier for people to travel to one major centre perhaps than it would be in the north area . I can certainly recognize that. They will be drawing up a

schedule of where they will be visiting . I do not know whether they will be communicating that to me immediately but they will be setting up their agenda. Mr. Cowan: Could the Minister then commit to forwarding to our critic, as soon as that

schedule is available, a copy of it? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I could do that. There will be advertising , hopefully, in adequate time so that people will be aware too as to where they are going. But I could do that. Mr. Cowan: Then just to tidy up the discussion generally, there are the needs, they are different needs, some are the same , but there are different needs. The Minister has mentioned some of them, training being one of them that is probably becoming more predominant as a need over time.

But the other is just developing a system of child care that is reflective of the needs of the communities and the cultural aspirations of the people who those centres are designed to serve . When I say cultural aspirations, I mean those of both populations of traditional communities and industrial communities. There is going to be a need for a special response because the needs are so special. I do not believe the committee will be able to fully consider, address and hopefully resolve those needs unless it has representation on it at all times at the highest level of decision-making from the North .

So I strongly , strongly urge the Minister, when she is taking that request under consideration, to do it from as positive a bias as possible. I expect to hear back from her as to an affirmative action on her part with regard to including Northerners on the task force , which leads me to my last question unless the answer provokes further - and I do not think it will. That is, when can I expect to hear back from the Minister with respect to northern representation , because I will be wanting to encourage my constituents to make known to the Minister what I know to be their 2083

Thurs day, October 13, 1988 commitment, their dedication and their inter est in this area, and encou rage her to make th ose appointments. I wou ld like to be able to kno w when tha t action should take pla ce.

When wou ld I kno w from the Minister as to whether or not she was able to successfu lly overcome the last barri er, the only barrier I can see now, and tha t is to convince -and maybe it do es not need much conv incing, maybe they are alr eady ready to act -h er Cabinet col leagues tha t you should add two more people to the task force so that, when you have the next to la st line of the Ne ws Service rel ease dated Septem ber 14, 19 88 re done, it will read : "The task force and advisory committee mem bersh ips represent the public, private, family, rural, nor thern work pla ce and native child care communities equal ly ." I think tha t is impor tant.

You just cannot lump the No rth in with the rural, as seems to have been done in this instance, kno wing that the y both have very special pla ces, playing to the own particular biases of the Ministe r and the MLA here, and the y do deserve special res pons es. When will we kn ow? Mrs. Oleson: I cannot give you an exact day or an hour, but I will under take to discuss it with the colleague. Mr. Cowan: Soon? Mrs. Ol eson: And soon would be a good answer, yes. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: Mr.

Chairpers on, again some clarification for the task force, has someone from the Manitoba Child Care Associat ion, is someone rep resented on the seven-mem ber main task force? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman , th ere are th ree mem bers of the MCC on the task force. The chairperson is on the task force. Ms. Gray: Again for further clarification, are the se individuals though repres enting any of the th ree? Are they repres enting the Manitoba Child Care Asso ciation, or do the y happen to be members of the Manitoba Child Care Associ at ion? Mrs. Oleson: lt was indicated to them tha t the y are on as individuals.

The y are not exactly repre sen ting that particular organiza tion, but we wanted to get repres entation from that organi zation on it. The y are not specifically rep res enting the views of tha t

part icular organ ization. The y will be rep res enting their own views. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairpers on, the Minister is then saying that the Manitoba Child Care Asso ciation as an associat ion is no t represented on the task force? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, the task force was not set up with specific rep res enta tion. None of the other child care asso ciations are represented on the task force either specifically as tha t group. There are people representative of the whole spec trum of child care. Ms.

Gray: Is any individual member who has experienc e wo rking in the family day care situation represented on the task force? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they are. Ms. Gray: Are the y rep res enting the family day cares in Manitoba or the assoc iation? Mrs. Oleson: lt was not indicated to them when they were asked to be on the task force tha t the y were representative of any particu lar group and spoke for tha t group. The y are speak ing for the mselves, but in order to get a rep res entation we wanted to have people from the various forms of child care. Ms.

Gray: Wo uld it not seem log ical tha t for two large asso ciations who rep resent child care and have been very active in regard to mem bersh ip and have been very active with the day care office in terms of having reg ular mee tings and the y lobby with the Government and are cert ainly the voice of child care cent res across the province, some profit and non-p rofit centres, tha t in fact tha t association, both associations not be represented on the task force?

I fail to see the logic of not having task force rep res entation from the se asso ciations, i.e., tha t the y would be th ere to represent the ass ociations. Mrs. Oleson: You cannot separate them and tell them not to rep res ent, but th ere are rep rese ntatives of th ose asso ciations on the task force. Ms. Gray: Again to clarif y then, when I had made earlier comments in Es timates regard ing if the se associations wou ld be rep resented , in recal ling the Minis te r's comments, she I think seemed to indicate tha t I would not be disappointed with the resu lts.

Then what she is saying is that the se asso ciations are not represented on the main task force. Mrs. Oleson: They are on as individuals and repres ent, but as I said before, you cannot separate them from their association. The y come with their quali fications and their expertis e and their kn owledge because of their activities in the day care field or on tha t assoc iation, so th ere is rep resentat ion from tho se gr oups that the Mem ber mentioned, but the y come to the task force as individuals. * (16 00) Ms.

Gray: Is it the expectat ion that the se task force members tha t we are speak ing of would solicit ideas and sugges tions from their respect ive assoc iations to bring to the task force? Mrs. Oleson: lt is entir ely up to them. Ms. Gray: Then in effect the se people are rep res enting the assoc iations and could very well be on the task force to represent the associat ion views. Mrs. Oleson: No, the y will bring to the task force their expertise. The y were selected because the y were involved in either prov iding day care or on an assoc iation, but they come as individuals.

As I said befo re, you cannot separa te it out. The y will bring the views of their associat ion, of cou rse, and the y will also 2084

Thursday, October 13, 1988 bring their own views. We are looking to what people we have selected to be on it, good representation of the various aspects of day care, whether it is family or public or private. Ms. Gray: If the Minister is indicating that it is hard to sep arate the individual views and the views of the associations of which these people are part of, why then was it indicated to these particular members that they were there on the task force as individuals but not to represent the association , when the Minis ter said that it really is hard to separate them out? Mrs.

Oleson: I said they were put on as individuals . I did not say they were told not to represent the association they belong to. They certainly will bring with them the feelings of their association but they are named on them-the task force-as individuals . Ms. Gray: The Minister then would not have a problem if the expertise and views of these particular individuals on the task force reflected the position and view s of the particular associations with which they are involved ? Mrs. Oleson: That is entirely up to those individuals how they want to approach the job of the task force.

They can represent only the views of the association they happen to belong to or they can represent their own views . It is entirely up to them . Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, have the quarterly meetings with the Manitoba Child Care Association and the day care office , are they continuing on? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they are. Ms. Gray: A clarification , these meetings , I understand were held on quarterly basis so that they have continued on and the September meeting was held? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, the September meeting took place . Ms.

Gray: Going back again to the preschool program at the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities , does the Minister feel that these types of programs for children with specials need warrant a priority with h~r depa r tment and that these programs should be expanded because of the high waiting list that are currently at the SMD in regard to entry into some of the specialized preschool programs? Mrs. Oleson: The society has not asked to expand. They generally support the integrated approach and they do want to give people some choice. Ms.

Gray: My understanding from the society is that although they feel there are some benefits to integration, they have a lot of concerns that children would be totally integrated into mainstreaming day care and that the ver y special and complex needs of these children would not be met . Their feeling is that there is a move to totally integrate all children and that some of these specia lized programs are not considered a priority and may not be supported by this Government.

My question then, because of these concerns or feelings that the society has , can the Minister assure us today that she sees a need in continuum of services in day care for children and that part of th at necessary continuum is to provide special need services in the form of specia lized day care for these children? That is part of the continuum and certainly integrated day care would be another part of the continuum. Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I agree with the Member . It depends a great deal on the needs of the child.

It will be very difficult for some children to get the proper care they need-ha ve all their needs met , that is what I am trying to say-in an integrated day care. It will depend a great deal on the needs of the child . Ms. Gray : I understand that when the previous admi ni str ation was in power that a review was conduc ted in regard to preschoolers and special needs and this review was conducted through the Department of Community Services with the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities and with a number of other individuals as well.

Is the Minister aware of this review and does she have the results of that review? Mrs. Oleson: The group mentioned the review when they met with me and I will be looking at it again when I meet with them later . Ms. Gray: Have any of the recommendations of that review been implemented by the Department of Community Services? Mrs . Oleson: I understand that informally there are actions that have been taken in the spirit of the review, but no formal actual implementation of the review has take n place . Ms. Gray: The Minister has indicated she will be looking at this review.

Will the Minister be making some decisions as to what should be the results or consequences of the recommendations of the review and whether they should be implemented? Mrs. Oleson: I will be discussing that with the society when I meet them later this fall. Ms. Gray: Does the Minister have information as to what the current waiting list is for children wanting to enter day cares? Mrs. Oleson: We do not have a list of numbers of children or parents wanting spaces at the moment. They are kept within each centre

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-56
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 56.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	aa416b1cc9c5e3f80c5d19d26766f08f57616346

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