Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 18, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 35

April 18, 1975. The House met at 11:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Tape 1564 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Port au Port. RH - 1 MR. F. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from the people in the communities of Point au }!al and Fox Island River and the surrounding areas within my district.

Their petition is that the road from Fox Island River and Point au Mal to Port au Port be upgraded and built to a standard which will enable local community people and visitors to travel the road without fear of the road being blocked with snow or washed out by rain during seasonal conditions. This is a typical petition from a rural area in which the gravel road periodically is either blocked by snow because of the poor grading on it over the years, that it is usually lower than the surrounding terrain and in the Spring­ time it is quite often affected by runoffs.

We in the district of Port au Port are extremely pleased with this year's highways programme generall~ but nevertheless there are a couple of fairly extensive pieces of road and the Fox Island River - Point au Mal road is one of them. It is approximately twelve miles in length and to have a complete upgrading and paving job would be a major undertaking which I doubt would be able to be done this year. However, this is a petition which outlines the ongoing needs of people in this area and I am sure it is reflected in many communities throughout the Province. Mr.

Speaker, I support this petition and I trust that these immediate emergency conditions as outlined in it will be looked after by my honourable friend to the Southwest here and that in the near future a top-notch upgrading and paving job is in the offing. I would like to have this petition referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador North. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the prayer of the petition presented by the Member for Port au Port. 4644

April 18, 1975. Tape 1564 RH - 2 We, too, Sir, feel that the people from Point au Mal - what is it, Fox f'nrm? MR. STAGG: ------- Point au Mal, Fox Island River. Fox Island River. Oh, yes! Point au Hal to Fox Island lliver, that their wishes will be met and the road will be upgraded and npnarently, the conditions that exist there are of an unusual nature. The road is lower than the terrain. Is this the case? They have problems dnri.ng the Spring runoff. That exists, I guess in a number of places throughout the Province, Mr. Speaker.

We support the petition and seeing that the honourable l·'inister of Transportation and Conununications sits directly in front of the honourable r1ember for Port au Port, I am sure they have had some discussions on this particular problem. We hope that th<: minister in his wisdom will see fit to shake loose a few bucks, Sir, to see that the people, their needs are met and the road is upgraded. ~IT!. SPEAKER: ----~----- The honourable J·'inister of Transportation and Comm.unications. 110N. J. ROUSSEAU: I rise in support of the petition, l~r.

Speaker, and I thlnk to support the petition, but also to make a little statement, if T may, because I think the honourable Hember for Port au Port put his fi.nv,er on a very inportant aspect in respect to the problems that people in areas lilce this suffer through the Winter and through the Spring that if the roads were good shape we would not have the problems probably with the snow or with the spring runoff and the softening that we do have, and hopefully that ~11 roads of this nature, this one particularly, and other ones as well, of course, if we could have these roads upgraded to such a status that during . the had season, the Spring season, when you have thP water and the runoff and the melting of the salt from the winter programme th:it 1.E these roads were in good shape they certainly would not be suffering the inconveniences that they now suffer.

So, that along with the other petitions we received, of course, we will give sympathetic consideration to and attempt to assist those people which need it to the greatest extent. It is difficult, of course, when you have a road in the situation from T'oint au Mal to Fox Island Harbour where you have the actual road lower than the terrain. We will certainly give it sympathetic consideration ,md attempt to do whatever we can to upgrade that particular

section of road. 464S

April 18, 1975. Tape 1564 P-H - 3 ANSWERS TO OUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I had a request from the honourable Member from Labrador South yesterday for an answer to a question. He is not here so I will hold the question until Tuesday. But I just want to go on record as standing up, but I will hold the answer until Tuesday when he is back or if he is in the House later on today I will give him the answer unofficially and if he still wants it on Tuesday I am prepared to give it to him.

ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Hember for Hermitage. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if either the Minister of Transportation who I understand was in Labrador West last weekend or the Minister of Manpower would bring us up to date on the situation so far as the Wabush Mines dispute is concerned? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON; E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, the situation is the same as has been reported to the House on two or three occasions when some of the questions were asked during last week. The union is still on strike.

There has not been any special requests or any requests of any kind to my department for involvement by anything other than the conciliation officer. I made it known to the parties that the conciliation officer is still available to assist them if and when his services are required. For the time heing, at least, that is the only thing we can do until such time as a request has been received from one party or both parties for any other type of assistance. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

ROUSSEAU: I was in the district last weekend and since you asked the question, if by leave I could answer it? You know it is difficult to go back to your district,w ·ith the two major town of Labrador City and Wabush,and not find out what is going on. I was apprised of the situation, of course, because everybody in the town of Wabush are involved in the strike be it the company or the union or the service industries. I have the information that I did receive while I was there. I passed along it to the minister so that he is completely now apprised of the situation. I am completely 4646

/lprfJ 18, ] 0 75. Tape 1564 RJl - 4 apprised of the situation. I am certainly concerned with it. Any time ,,011 sPe n ro,-m of 1, rori or 3, 3no which is depe.ndent on one industry on stril:e \:mc-1 I do not J.·nm,, if honourable members ,in the House know it but t 1,is is c1.ctu2.lly the third ma_jor strike that we have had in the area, in 1'11"'1, 1°7::>, again now in 1975. They are difficult times for everybody concerned in either col'lJTlunity, he it Wahush or Labrador City. So, I talkecl to individuals up there and I would like to express mv concern with it.

We are aware of the situation and certainly we ,mul<l like to see sonething occur to bring an end to it as soon as nossible. I speak about that, if I may, as an !d.ll.A. since the honourahle member did ask me in that light. He are certainly concerned uith it and both sides have indicated to me their feelings, unofficially as the Y .J: .ii., not to the r;overmnent and I avpreciate that. So I am apprised of the situation and will certainly keep an eye on it. I will keep reporting to the minister on anything that I receive as the M.H.A. MP. • SPF.AKER : The honourable Hel'lber for Hermitage.

Mn • s nmmrs : - ·-----·- A question for the Hinister of Transportation: I under- stand that the minister was involved recently in recruiting personnel abroad. Does the minister get the question? I understand the minister has been recruiting some personnel for his department abroad. Would he care to brief the House on what the reason for this recruitment is and why they chose to go outside the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable l'inis ter of Transportation and Communications. l'R.

ROUSSEAU: I presume the honourable gentleman is referring to a recent visit to England to try to attempt to recruit some engineering technid.ans. >m. SP.-tM:ONS: Yes. /ff'. ROUSSEAU: Yes. Well, from what I understand in the department, it is very difficult to acquire in the Province technicians of the nature we are lonkinr: for. I can say flatly without equivocation that if we had the enr,ineers in this Province or the technicians in this Province there is absolutely no µossibility of hiring anybody outside this Province if these people were available. If they are not available then we have to 464/

April 18, 1975. Tape 1564 RR - 5 try and get them because we do have a programme that 1,1e want to carry on. Now, we have gone to Memorial University. We have gone to the Maritime universities because there are also Newfoundlanders attendin .g there. We have made every attempt to secure anybody we can who is a Newfound­ lander . either at Memorial here or outside the Province who are Ne"f ound­ landers. We always go on a recruitin g trip and any jobs t hat were offered to somebody who was not from this Province would only be offered if there was nobody in this Province to fill it. Now, we have a number of 4648

A.pril 18, 1975 Tape No. 1565 NM - 1 problems down in the department as the roads prop,ramme gets larger, we need a lot of enJ?ineers, we need a lot of technicians, we are not staffed now to the extent we would like to be.

But if the honourable Member for Hermitage, or indeed any honourable Member of this House c-nllld tnclicate where we could pet an engineer or a technician at the cost and at the,you know, that we pay at our pay scale and so on, we certainly would love to have them and I can guarantee unequivocally to the honoura1'le Member for HermitnJ?e that if there is an engineer or a technical person available if that was a position we are talking ahout who is qualified and ready to come with us in the Province, we certainly have no hesitation, it would be our wish to have these people.

Rut whe,:e they are not there we have to go look for them, otherwise our roads programme will suffer. You know there are times when honourable Members of the House ask me questions about certain parts of road and so on and you may have to have somP.body to go down and take a look at it and do an estimate on it and so on and you have to have the staff for that. When you are short staffed of course you have got to put things off and you cannot do it for a week or two or three r,ayhe because of the work load. We need more tPc'1nicians.

We need more engineers, and unequivocally our first choice , .. ,oul cl be neople who are Newfoundlanders and who have studied in the Province and who are ready and avilable and qualified to work here. l-W.

SIMMONS: A su-pnlementary to the minister, would he indicate how successful the recruitinp jaunt was and how many persons have been engaged as a result for hi r, department1 I presume also that all the persons we are talking about in terms of this recruitment are engineers. 'lR. ll_nUS":E/\ll: '·!ell not necessarily engineers, engineering technicians, you Ir.now which are technical peorle, shall we say, I do not think there were r,ny PnpinePrs;. T cannot answer the honourable member's question but I will Fincl nut lwcm1sse the officials made the trip and I think a couple of job offers were made.

Now whether they were accepted or not I do not know but 4649

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1565 NM - 2 I will get the numbers. But I do not think there were any enfineers. I think we were successful enough within the Memorial here we made, I think it was four peopleland I think we were ready to make offers with them, Wheth~r they came or not I do not really know the status of that. What other success we have met in recruitinp: in the l-laritimes I do not know1 but I will undertake to get the number of job offers we made to technical people as a result of the recruiting trip to England. MR.

Siill10NS: One other related question for the minister; I understand that over the past number of months, a year or so probably, there has been some difficulty in r.etting equipment repaired because of a shortage of mechanics in the various repair depots, iflcluding in particular Grand Falls 1I believe. I wonder would the minister indicate what efforts the department is taking to remedy this situation, to find additional mechanics and also what kind of success they are meeting with? MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I might say also that there is another difficulty, it is in the securement of parts.

You know we have a difficulty there as well, so the machinery may not be down merelv because we do not have the mechanics. It may be from parts as well. But we are attempting to get as many mechanics as we can. It is difficult,of course. Maybe the new contract that is going to be negotiated with the public service will raise it to an area where we can get them. We are competing with industry and as honourable members of the House know, the difference between what we are paying mechanics and what industry is paying is quite a difference and it is very difficult to get the mechanics and to retain them.

I do have a complete list which I had to read out on the machinery, and on the mechanics we have for IDY estimates, If my estimates happen not to come up in Highways and I would be prepared after the final seventy­ fifth hour to table the information on both the equipment 1which was asked before and which I suggested I would do on all districts, how much 4650

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1565 NM - 3 e<julprnent we have, what the age was and so on by district and also the number of people who we have laid off during the past few years, PPnnlP have been asking this and all this information I have, I had it for the estimates. If the estimates are not down I will be prepared to tahle it in thP !~use. "'1R. SPEAKER: The honourable !-,ember for Labrador North. trr.>.. 1<'0001,ARD: 'Ir.

Speaker, I have a question maybe I shnuld direct it tn the Minister of Education or maybe the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations seeing that the President of the Treasury Board is not in his seat today.

It is rer,ardinp, the teachers requestinr: a government mediator to enter into the negotiations with Treasury Board, I feel that they are no'lvgettinp: close on their negotiations and a lot of anxiety exists in the Province at a crucial time when the public ex8JllS are coming up to have a teachers strike in the Province,if they do not agree, I wonder if the minister possibly can tell us how close we are and if the r.overnment is offering the services of a mediator tc help to hrinp them closer together and if indeed we could end up with a strike before the exa~1s starts in June? 1'\R. OTTENHEIMER: }Ir.

Speaker, all I can say, well I can give the factual ·i II Fn,:-mciti,m. Tl,e collective bargaininr. negotiations between the - HR. WOODWARD: Which have been going on for a lonp time. ~'R. rlTTENl!IU!-IER: - Newfoundland Teachers Association and the government have not hroken off. MR. WOODWARD: No. No, or no closer together, they are that far apart - MR. OTTENHEit!F.R: Well they have been negotiating for some time and what has happened is that as provided in the act,

section 14 of the act, has been the facilities made available there have been used and this is where both parties to the negotiations have agreed to request,and have in fact requested,the Chairman of the Labour Relations Board to appoint a ~nnciliation officer to meet with them with the hope and view of whatever points of difference there are that his professional services will be of assistance. This is a procedure provided completely in accord with the act and that is in fact what has been done. I do not know if my colleague wishes to add anythinf.! to that. 465i

April 18, 197 5 Tape No. 1565 NM - 4 MR. WOODWARD: Supplementary, the minister did not answer the question. The question was if the government would be providing a reconciliation officer to the negotiating team, has that been done and when does the teachers' agreement expire, are we getting close to the expiry date of the agreement or - MR, OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, well the last contract ends at the end of the fiscal year but the Act provides not only for the collective, well for the whole collective bargaining framework and this is one of the procedures. Now in this precedure under

section 14 of the Act, what the two parties do is not - this is not a procedure whereby they request the government or the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations to appoint a conciliation board, this is a provision wherehy they request the Chairman of the Labour Relations Board,who is Mr. Geoffrey Steele,to appoint a conciliation officer. He would be an official of the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations, but it is not the procedure of the conciliation board, arpointed by the minister. MR. WOODWARD: Has that been done now at the request of the teachers? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: I would presume, I think it was only forty-eight hours ago that both sides agreed and no doubt they have written their letters. Whether or not Mr. Steele has already made that appointment - I would think he probably only got the letter yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermit~ge. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries. I wonder would the minister indicate to the House whether he has received any reply to his representation which he indicated to the House a day or so ago he had made to Mr.

Creeper, the Chairman or the President of the Atlantic Herring Management Board in reference to the problems of the herring seiners in Bay D'Espoir and other parts of the Province? MR, CROSBIE: I have not received any reply as yet, Mr. Speaker, from Mr, Creeper, but as I understand the situation, the herring seiners in question have ceasecl operating in those areas at the present time, so the inunediate crisis seems to have passed but I have not received any reply yet, 4652

April 18 , 1975 Tape No. 1565 NM - S 'ffi. StMHONS: Supplementary: I certainly aer ee with the minister t hat t he, i mmediate r r tsi s fa passed . I would like to ask him whether his de oartmen t or whether he intends making some formal representation to the fedPr a l 11-overmnent with reco1J11:1endations as to hex., the matter ought to be r e11olvE'd in terms of new re~ulations to rey.ulate the areas in which th e11e herri ng Reiners can pers ue the fishery? 465 3

April 18, 1975 Tape 1566 (Morning) MR. CRSOBIE: Mr. Speaker, I am away ahead of the honourable genleman. I explained it yesterday that our representations were made to the Atlantic Provinces Herring Management Committee some two or three months ago. ·MR. SIMMONS: Yes. I am aware of thAt. PK - 1 MR. CROSBIE: We have made our recollUl\endations. It is now up to the federal authorities to control this. I sup,gest to the honourable gentleman that he agitate the Hon. Romeo LeBlanc or Mrs. S~uve or Mr.

Jamieson and that he _pester him every day on this matter. or them on this matter and then these are the people who can act. Our position has been made known to these federal authorities, and action has to come from them. So I would therefore sug gest that he do that and that he ask our federal members to do the same. And since the federal member for that area is the Hon. Donald Jamieson, the Minister of Regional Economic Expansion - AN HON. MEMBER: The money man. MR. CROSBIE: - and the man who has the money and who we have a great love and admiration for - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CROSBIE: AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

SPEAKER: Inaudible. I suggest that he contact his federal member - Inaudible. Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: - his federal member Mr. Jamieson and also a·sk him to see what progress is being made at Ottawa. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Again the minister as always gives good advice, and I agree it would be much more pleasant agitating at least one of the persons he mentioned than agitating him. I am also disappointed that he sees this as pestering because my concern this is very genuine. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: I am preambling, Mr.

Speaker, as I am required to do under the rules of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: If Teddy Bear does not know. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! 4654

April lfl, 1975 Tape 1566 (Morning) PK - 2 f fR. SIMMONS : Let me put the question, Mr. - MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! I am sure the Hon. Member for Hermitage knows that no

preamble as such is permitted to a question. It has to hery short and very precise, and he was getting into a

preamble. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, well, Mr. Speaker, the member does not know that. I understood the rules differently but I shall go without the

preamble. I was going to ask the minister once again if he would replv to my original question - has he made in the last,since this immediate crisis,that he has called it, crune up in the last week, last weekend,Fridav and Saturday, has he made any formal representations to the federal government? For the record I have made the representations he suggested to Mr. Jamieson. Has he made any representations to the federal government on this matter? ~ITT. CORS!HF. : Mr. Speaker, I have answered that previously, and I will answer it again.

Yes, we have sent telex messages, and my officials have been in touch with their officials. I have done all that I can do as the Frovincial Minister of Fisheries.

And in fact two or three months ago we wrote the federal government and the Atlantic Herring Management Committee outlining the problem and recommending that in the bays of Newfoundland where there had been no quota set or no lines set anrl where they did not have sufficient information on herring stocks, that herring seiners be forbidden from operating in there until it was knm-m what the stocks were capable of bearing and that the inshore fishermen shoulrl have the preference, This was done some two or three months ago l,efore even the recent events of the last few days.

So I hope that it answers it for them. l·'.ll. SH'!HONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder would the minister let me have a cony of the submission to the federal government or ,,,ould he care to table - either would suit me. I would like to have a look at it. l'-!R. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would have to ask for the consent of the federal government to give the honourable gentleman a copy of such a letter. If he wishes I can ask them do they consent: If they conRent;sure. 4655

April 18, 1975 Tape 1566 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. SIMMONS: Thank you. I have a further question for the minister on another matter. I wonder would the minister indicate whether any extension to the Select Committee's deadline for reporting to the House has been agreed on? And also if it has been determined if the Committee will go to additional communities other than those which were originally announced by the Chairman of the Col!Ullittee? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, yes,we are going to ask the House, in fact, I have a motion ready now which I am going to move when the question period is over. I am going to request the House to extend the time for the Committee to report to June 5 1 and I discussed that with the Leader of the Opposition this morning. So I am going to move that with the consent on - it will be on Orders of the Day. And we would hope that the Connnittee could have their report concluded by June 5, and then our intention will be to have the House meet on June 5.

We will finish our present business 1I would think 1likely within the next two weeks - it is hard to know - or certainly we will be finished by the middle of May. I can see no reason why we would not be finished by the middle of May. And what would then happen 1I guess ls that the House will adjourn until June 5.

And on June 5 we will have the report from this Committee to consider and to debate, and there will be some legislation that is of major importance and complicated, but I do not think we can conclude in the next two or three weeks that would be tabled in the House so that everybody will have copies, and then we will deal with that legislation,say on June 5. So probably we will meet again on June 5,it might take a week or so to do with those matters then. So that is the plan. And I will move a motion to that effect on Orders of the Day.

As to whether the Connnittee will have further meetings,ot course the Chairman and the Chairman members will have to decide that. But I believe that they will be having other meetings - but, you know, we will have to get that information from them after they have decided on that. They are meeting as you know on Monday and Tuesday to visit the communities that they did not get to last week because of the weather. 4656

April I R, 1975 Tape 1566 (Morning) PK - 4 That is rip.ht is it not? MR. SPEAKER: The Ron. Member for Twillingate. MR. I-1. GILLETT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation - fear not. MR • IJOODWARn : Recreation. MR.

GILLln T: I wonder if the minister can tell the Rouse whether or not he has received any approaches at all, whether COil!lllUnications or telephone calls from any of the religious bodies in Twillingate or from a representative of those bodies concerning the conversion of the olrl hospital into a Senior Citizens' Nursing Rome1 I was very interested in his announcement last night and this is why I am asking him the question, Mr. Speaker. :MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. HON. T. DOYLE (MINISTER OF RECREATION AND REHABILITATION): Mr.

Speaker, I recall seeing such a communication, and I do not recall right now whether it came directly to me or if it came perhaps to the Minister of Health, and it came up at a meeting of the Social Policy Co1!111'ittee of Cabinet which is currently looking at the total problem on a provincial basis of delivery of services to our senior citizens with emphasis on extended care beds. I do recall 1 as I say,having seen some months ago, two or three months ago,a letter from some organization, perhaps the Ministery Association in Twillingate just asking the question, was consideration being given.

And the situation is that at the present time. and for the last seven or -eight months we have been looking at the total problem on a nrovincial basis, and because of that we have sort of had a freeze on any new facilities or any decisions on using existing facilities until we come up with a provincial plan. The emphasis now is ver y much shifting to demands for extended care beds

whereas the number of applications for ambulatory beds are decreasing, and up to now there has been a number of these inter-faith homes that have been constructed around the Province, they have been primarily concerned with ambulatory patients. It appears , we do not know for sure yet, but it appears that the need for ambulatory beds is decreasing,

whereas the need for extended care beds or acute nursing beds is increasing. 465/

April 18, 1975 Tape 1566 (MoTI1ing) PK - 5 As I s.aid last night, and befcire,we hope to be in a position in a month or two to announce new government policy with tegaTds to thif! whole problem on a provincial basis. MR, GILI$'!T: Mr, Speaker, a supplementary. Has the ministe .r a~swered that letter to whatever body - AA BON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, GILLETT: And if not,will he be good enough to answer it? I am just wondering how long ago that letter did come, Mr, Speaker? MR. DOYLE: As I say I meant to mention that before I sat down, Mr. Speaker. I will check on that letter.

As I say I am not sure if it was a letter or a comment in the media or what it was; but I had heard something in the last couple of months e!ll&Illiting from Twillingate asking that-question. But I will track it down and let the honourable member know on Tuesday. MR. SPlUER,: Before we proceed with a furtheT question, I undei;:stand we have in the galleries four .teen student.a from the College of Trades and 'Technology with their teacher Mrs. Finkle. We would certainly welcome you here, and o.n behalf of 111 the honourable members and tru.st t;hat your 'irisit here is most interesting and informative, 4658

Aprtl 18, l<l75 Tape 1567 (morning) IB-1 · ' !I?.. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista North. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. I wonder could the minister inform this honourable House if his department or the government is going to pay any compensation to the fishermen of Placentia Ray who lost their gear because of ice conditions a month or so ago? MF. SPf:/1.KER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. C. ROSBJR: Mr.

Speaker, the position is that we have a gear subsidy programme that is applicable to all fishermen in the Province who have purchased gear and their is a subsidy on twine and so on and so forth. That new policy was introduced last year and the subsidy programme was improved. Those fishermen are eligible for that assistance. They are not eligible for anything else. There is no federal -provincial programme that would apply to the Placentia Bay situation or to situations where people lose gear because of whales which go through their traps or individual misfortunes of that nature.

So, there is no special progranune. Now, we are looking at this particular situation to see if we can devise something that might be satisfactory to deal with it. A final decision will he made next week. When it is made, I will announce it in the House. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. rROSBIB: "'r. Speaker, just before we go on to the regular business, I would like to move that the Select Committee of this House on the Inshore Fishery appointed hy resolution on March 10 be given leave to present the report on or before June 5, 1975.

I mentioned this to the honourable Leader of the Opposition this morning, and I do not think anyone is going to disagree with this. As you know, ~r. Speaker, the present resolution directed the Committee to present their report on or before April 30. Well, it is obviously impossible for them to complete their report by that time. The Government of Canada will be carrying on or will be announcing a programme of continual assistance after April 30 to replace the present programme.

It is obviously going to take them and us a much longer ti.me to decide on what other more fundamental steps have to be taken in connection with the fishery situation and to devise a progranune 465~1

April 18, 1975 Tape 1567 (morning) IB- 2 for the next three to five years. Therefore the Committee's report will be useful in that sense while we are carrying on these meetings and negotiations during the rest of the year. So, I would like to move that the House do give the Committee until June 5. It would then be our intention to have the House meet on June 5 if we are adjourned before then 1which is very likely, and receive the report so we can then debate the report and members can say what they think of it and what their views are.

We therefore would meet again on June 5 for however long it takes to consider the report and any other legislation we might have at that time. So, I so move then, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: All those in favor of the motion, "Aye". Those - The honourable the Member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Just before we carry the motion, if it is in order, I would just like to comment for a second.

I think speaking for the members on this side of the House,who is a member apart from myself, we agree with this because it is acknowledged by all, I think, it is almost humanly impossible to visit all the communities requested by the Committee to visit and to be able to submit a report by the deadline which was handed down of April 30. However, I am very pleased that the Minister of Fisheries is not going to apply the report as is stated here in this motion.

That is that if the House then be adjoumed,that the Committee would report to the clerk of the House and he in turn would instruct and make arrangements for the report to be publicized. I think he should stick to the original that the Committee should report to the House and not to the clerk of the House because that is the whole substance of the matter, that we should report to the House and not to anyone else. So, I am very pleased that the minister is anticipating at least calling the Rouse together to discuss this report. MR. SPEAKER: All those in favor of the motion, "Aye". MR. SIMMONS: Is this, Mr.

Speaker, the appropriate time to make a comment on the motion? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes, sure. MR. SPEAKER: It ia a little unusual. I would not want the House to get into a debate on this particular motion. I am afraid that if we get into this - 4660

April lll, 1975 Tape 1567 (morning) -!SOME HONOURABLE ~MEERS: Inaudihle. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. Sil-<\IONS: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SI}l\!ONS: Mr. Speaker, I - IB-3 MR. SPEAKER: What I would not want to see is this get into a full scale debate of each member of the legislature being permitted to pass some comments on the particular motion. We have had the House Leader and the gentleman representing the official Opposition speak to it.

I am willing to hear the Member from Hermitage, but I am afraid it might get into a full-scale debate, and I certainly would not want that. ~- S!m,!ONS: No, Mr. Speaker, that was not my intention. I just had a brief comment and I wanted to put it at the appropriate time. If this is not the appropriate time - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: I am prepared to do it - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! r<R. Sim,!ONS: - at some other time. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, t~ a point of order.

If the honourable gentleman is going to be allowed to comment on the resolution, I am sure it must be as the rules of the House state, by leave of the House. So, before the honourable gentleman will comment who is going to comment, he must ask the leave of this assembly to speak on the resolution. MR. SPEAKER: No, no, no - AN HONOURABLE "1EMRER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That, I think, is perhaps the best way of getting around it because otherwise if the honourable '"!ember for Hermitage speaks, then an honourable member to my left might want to speak and it could get into a full~scale debate. MR.

SIMMONS: What is the sense of the resolution? MR. SPEAKER: On the other hand, the motion may be a debatable motion, theri - AN !10NOURABLE MEMBF.F: It is a debatable motion. MR. SPEAKER: - I will recognize the Member for Hermitage . 4661

April 18, 1975 Tape 1567 (morning) Ill-4 MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, it is not my intention to delay the House. As I said, I just had one or two comments. The members sitting on the other side of the House who are members of the Select Committee need not fear. I am not going to make any great vicious attacks. I want to correct only one statement that I heard in the exchange a few minutes ago about my being, the statement to the effect that I am against this Select Committee. I object to that, Mr. Speaker, and of course that is almost not worthy of comment.

I am one of the members who sat in this House and supported the appointment of the Select r.ommittee. To suggest that a member is against the Committee because he gets up in two question periods of the last two weeks and asked some questions which are aimed at improving the function of the Committee, questions like, would it meet in more places at more convenient time, to construe that as being against the Committee is a fairly asinine conclusion to say the least, Mr. Speaker.

But, to my point and the comment that I just wanted to make while the motion is before the House, the inshore fishery on the South Coast of the Province is rather different in character than in other parts of this Province. It should not be lumped in with the inshore fishery on the North East Coast because it is quite different, particularly different in that it is the only year 'round fishery in Newfoundland.

In view of that,and without getting into a protracted discussion on it, but in view of the fact that it is a different inshore fishery, I submit, the Committee ought to take sometime to hear the parti ·cular views of the inshore fishermen on the South Coast. It is true - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. WILSON: The honourable Member for Hermitage wants to discuss the Committee on the Inshore Fishery. We have not brought in any report yet.

I suggest that if the honourable Member for Hermitage i• going to be allowed to carry on the ~actics he is doing, that we will all get into it. MR. THOMS: So, he can. It is a debatable motion. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 4662

April 18, 1975 Tape 1567 (morning) As the Chair feels that - MR. WILSON: It is not a debatable motion. l"R. THOMS: Yes, it is. MR. WILSON: Not. IB-5 MR. SPEAKER: - the honourahle Memher for Hermitage was getting into a general rlebate and being far from relevant to the particular point of the motion which was to whether or not the period of time should be extended from April 30, I think it was, until June 5. The honourable Member for Hermitage was wandering into a general debate on the whole fishery, inshore fisheries problem. MR • SIMMONS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will try to be more to the point if that is what Mr. Speaker suggests. I had not wanted to get into a general debate. I sense there are people on the other side who are pretty touchy on this particular subject. So, I shall be brief and to the point. I was just - MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: I was preambling, Mr. Speaker, about the unique nature of the South Coast Inshore Fishery. I was pointing out that the Committee has met at Harbout Breton. It is true.

In addition in view of the proposed extension of deadline as contained in the motion, in view of the proposed extension, I would like to suggest that the Committee consider meeting on both sides of Hermitage Bay, on the West Side. Probably they will have to go up to or as far as - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable Member for Hermitage is now saying exactly the same thing as he repeated a few moments ago when the Chair reminded him that the only relevant part of this motion in the Chair's opinion is to whether or not there should be an extension from April 30 until June 5.

If the honourable Member for Hermitage persists in being irrelevant to the motion, the Chair shall request him to take his seat. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am saying, Mr. Speaker, that I can see a case for the extension of the deadline if during that extended period the Committee will get to two parts of the Province which 4663

April 18, 1975 Tape 1567 (morning) IR-" has a unique inshore fishery, a fishery from which the Committee has not yet received much representation . I refer to the East side of Hermitage Bay, the communities of Hermitage , Sandyville and Sea 1 Cove. I suggest a meeting in that area, and the West side to cater to the people of Maccallum, Francois where there is a successful inshore fish ery . The meeting may be held at ~amea or Hurgeo. r understand from talking t o them t hat t his would be fai rly convenient for them. 4664

April 18, 1975 Tape no .1568 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Those in favour of the motion II aye. 11 Those against, 11 nay. 11 I declare the motion carried. MR. CROSBIE: Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: 1104-01. The Member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Chairman, before we move on, what page are we on? MR. CHAIRMAN: Page seventy-three. MR.

WOODWARD: Before we move off this subhead on energy, going back to a number of years ago when the government made some atte111Pt or tried to make some attempt at some uniformity in the electrical rates throughout the Province and the great disparity that exists between the hydro rates and the diesel generated rates in the rural areas, some attempt was made to bring the two rates closer together. We have seen in a number of areas where we feel that the government did not go far enough in its policy. Maybe it was because of the increased rates in diesel fuel.

But maybe the minister would like to enlighten the committee as to what their policies are now. Will we eventually have one rate for electricity in this Province or will we continue to have rates that apply to different regions of areas because of the difference in the generation of electricity? MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, this government, last year, took action to attempt to make uniform the diesel rates and hydro rates for the normal domestic consum,r.

And the information I had at the time was that the average amount of consumption by the average domestic consumer was, I believe, 500 kilowatt hours a month, and that this - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: Up to 500 I am pretty sure, Mr. Chairman. MR. WOODWARD: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: It is up to 500 that the rates were standardized, and it was contemplated that this would permit the use of the normal domestic appliances. It did not contemplate electric heat being installed 4665

April 18, 1975 Tape no. 1568 Page 2 - mw and did not contemplate that the individuals applying electric heat on the diesel systems would be in a position to have the same rate as if they were on the hydro system. But for the normal domestic appliances, this was the information I got. The montily rate of consU11ption would - MR. WOODWARD: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: No, well, I am not sure.

It was not a large amount but we did make the attempt to get for the normal domestic consumer - now I have to say that the only area, I think, where I have received objections or representations to take futher action is from the Happy Valley area, the Goose Bay-Happy Valley area, where it has been impressed upon, because of the climatic conditions and so on that the normal monthly consumption is greater than the amount that is now standardized with the hydro rate. The problem, of course, is not juat the matter of that it may be several hundreds of thousands of dollars possibly - I forget the exact figures.

We had an investigation done as to what it would cost to make the entire system uniform, and I had some information on this at one time. I am not sure if I still got it here. But it is not just the cost, the immediate cost of making the hydro rate and the diesel rate uniform which would result in some decrease of the diesel rate.· and some decrease in revenue to the Rural Electrification Authority or the power distribution districts, I should say.

In addition to that loss of revenue, you have to consider to what extent can we permit or encourage the use of electric heat on diesel systellB, for example, where you have then the very rapid increase in the rate of consumption, where you have then the need for the installation of additional diesel units,and this is the problem. It is the rate of growth you can experience if you encourage the use of electric heat in diesel areas as much as the decrease in revenue that government would get by reducing the end bloak in the diesel rate. I aight say, Mr.

Chairman, that the entire question of pricing of both hydro rates and diesel Eatea - MR. WOODWAR.D: Yes, but somewhere along the line, we are going to have to reach a happy medium, Jou know, if you are going to get in control 4666

April 18, 1975 Tape no. 1568 Page 3 - mw of the utility, the public control of the utility, then you got to be fair and equitable, You got to get one rate for all, eh? MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure that we will ever reach the stage where we can say, and you will have an isolated diesel system out on an island say, that - MR. WOODWARD: You remember the :Resettlement Progrannne1 You have talked about it millions of times, We do not have too many people living on islands any more, MR.

BARRY: - that we have the same rate as those hooked into the hydro system when we would, therefore, encourage considenable increase in consumption and fantastic increase in cost of providing additional generating facilities and additional diesel units just to keep up with the rate of growth, So that is the problem, If I can just check my figures on this.

I am sorry I said - yes,the Happy Valley area feels that because of the particular climatic conditions, their particular circumstances, that we should reconsider our policy here, I pointed out to the people in the area, and the honourable member, of course, is aware that we are speaking of another few years in any event until the inter-tie is made with the Gull Island site in which case they would be on to a hydro system and the problem would not longer exist for that particular part of the Province. We would still have our Burgeo - MR. WOODWARD: Five to seven years. MR. BARRY: Well, say, five years.

We still have our Burgeos and our Rameas and so on where we have the isolated system,or the Rameas, in any event, systems out on islands. Yes, I said 500, Mr, Chairman. I was wrong there, The average household consumption would be approximately 300, approximately 300, MR. WOODWARD: Yes. MR. BARRY: Yes, not 500, And this is computed by looking at the various appliances, lights, toaster, iron, vacuum cleaner, food mixer, kettle, water pump, television, radio, rangette, range,clothes dryer, hot water heater and assuming an oil fired furnance instead of electric heating, So , 4667

April 18, 1975 Tape no. 1568 Page 4 - mw I calinot say. Mr, Chairman. that we are prepared to revive our policy a:t this ti!lle, We had it under review. We are prepared to keep it , un..der review. 'llut at the present time 1: ll1II not prepared to say that ve are in a position to lll&ke uniform the rates on the diesel systems with those on the hydro ayst .ems. But I agree with the honourable 111ember that we should strive for uniformity 4668

April 18, 1975. Tape 1569 RH - l as much as possible but we also have to keep in mind the responsibility we have for insuring that there is some control on spending, some control on expenditures and there is no assurance that we can permit unlimited growth on the diesel system without running into very severe increases in expenditures. There is the problel'I. Before I sat down last night, Mr. Chairman, I just mentioned a few figures on rate, the price of electricity generally. I would just like to read out this little clipping that I took from a United States newspaper back in October, 1974, last Pall.

It said, a study by the National Utility Service Incorporated shows that the fifty largest electric utilities in the U.S. increased their rates by an average of 55.4 per cent during the first six months of 1974 compared with an average increase of 12.4 per cent during the entire 1973 year. And it says that they are blaming higher operating costs with the unprecedented heights. It says that even higher rates are in prospect. This is in the U.S.

They go on to point out that the Consolidated Edison Company of ~1ew York, the giant utility down there is charging the largest, the highest rates in that particular country. Its average rate for residential, industrial and commercial users was 5.807 cents per kilowatt hour, cents, that is not mils. That is not five mils. That is 5.807 cents per kilowatt hour. NR. WOODWARD: To residential? I-IR. BARRY: To residential, industrial and commercial and that is the average, the average price, a forty-three per cent increase from the first six months of 1973.

As a matter of fact, there are some places in the United States, Mr. Chairman, the electricity bill is becoming almost as large as the rental bill or the payment on a mortgage. l'R. WOODWARD: That all depends on the mortgage. HR~ BARRY: No, what I am trying to point out is that - ~!R. WOODWARD : I do not think that is a fair comparison. If your mortgage is (Inaudible.) the equivalent in electricity. MR.

BARRY: What I am trying to point out is there you have a country where pretty much the same situation as we find ourselves they were several years ago, where the normal electricity bill\while it is a bill that every­ body notes because they pay it every month and it is a significant amount 4669

April 18, 1975. Tape 1569 RH - 2 even now in Newfoundland and in Canada, that there has been a drastic dramatic escalation in the size of that bill as compared to the size of the rental bill or the food bill or so on. The relative proportions that we find these in three years ago, the electricity bill has become much larger and a much higher percentage of the rental bill or the food bill and so on. It shows that there have been increases or up to eighty-nine per cent in 1974, in six months of 1974. For example, the Florida Power Company had an eighty-nine per cent increase.

Other companies in the United States, one had an increase of 87.6 per cent in New York, another in New Jersey up 76 per cent; Southern California up 72 per cent; Baltimore Gas and Electric up 63.8 per cent; Philadelphia up 63.6 per cent. Just to give you an indication, Mr. Chairman, that while there is nobody can be all that happy or enthusiatic about the fact that rates have recently gone up in our Province by fifteen per cent 1 that we have to keep our proper prospective and we have to look at our position relative to other places in the world and other places in Canada.

We have to keep in mind that just as energy is becoming more costly in other parts of the world we cannot expect it to be other than the same here in Canada and here in Newfoundland. The honourable Leader of the Opposition asked me, he made a number of points with respect to the Newfoundland Light and Power recent rate hearing. MR. WOODWARD: Wait until this afternoon. He will be back and then you can tell him. MR. BARRY: Pardon? MR. WOODWARD: MR. BJRRY: I will hang on. MR. WOODWARD: MR. BARRY: Wait until three o'clock. He will be back. Oh! He is not going to be back until three o'clock.

Okay, We should be finished this by then though, should we not? No, I do not think so. You are going to whip through all the rest of these estimates. In any event, Mr. Chairman, if honourable members have any further questions on this I will be happy to supply them. They might be interested in knowing that the total growth of energy generated in the Province this last year, 4670

April lll, 1975. Tape 1569 RH - 3 including the Upper Churchill, the total increase was forty-five per cent increase, that the total growth for use within the Province was 11.2 per cent increase. MR. WOODWARD: Not high. MR. BARRY: Well, not high, you consider that the national average is 6.4 per cent, it is high. MR. WOODWARD: You are not talking the factors into consideration. MR.

BARRY: If you consider that the total utility growth, the total growth for those customers receiving power either from Newfoundland Light and Power or directly from the Hydro Corporation, the power distribution district, that that rate of growth was twenty-one per cent. You can see that there is a significant load growth in the Province. Oh, yes! As far as the P.olyrood Thermal Plant is concerned the capacity of this plant is two billion kilowatt hours. The generation in 1974 was approximately one-sixth of the capacity of the Hydro Thermal Plant. However, peaking was up to one-half the capacity.

So that meant that one unit, there are two units, one unit had to on at all times. HR. WOODWAJID: Yes, one-twelth. :'1R. BARRY: Pardon? MR. WOODWARD: One-twelth. MR . BARRY: One-half. MR. WOODWARD: One-half, peaking. l1R. BARRY: Peaking. We had to have half, one of the two uni ts on all the time in order to be able to meet the peaking requirements of the Island load. MR. WOODWARD: !Ir. Chairman, I would like to point out a number of factors, and I think of the minister in his wisdom to site the comparisons of electrical rates in the southern states such as Florida,which I am not too familiar with - HR.

BARRY: New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore - l'R. HOODWARD: But I do get the odd light bill from Florida Power. I-Then you make comparisons as to that type of consumption merely because of the climatic conditions versus the consumption of electricity in the climatic conditions that we have, not only in, and you can make some great comparisons between the consumption on the Avalon Peninsula versus the 4571

April 18, 1975. Tape 1569 RH - 4 consU111ption on the Great Northern Peninsula and then a much higher consumption in the Labrador sector. This is why, I think, that you have the representation from the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area and indeed supported by the Chamber of Commerce and the Board of Trade in St, John's and indeed supported by the Canad.ian Chamber of Commerce because they have studied the factors involved.

Now when you take into conside ration only the difference between the daylight hours during the wintertime that exist in the South and in the North where normally we are getting during November, December, January and up to February, you are getting about six hours of daylight and twenty-two hours of darkness, chis, in itself, adds for higher consumption. Then when you think 4672

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1570 NM - 1 in terms of the heating period,and today and while you see the growth here, Mr.

Chairman, and I have watched the growth of electricity as that is applied to the standard of living throughout the rural areas of Newfoundland,and today I am sure that anyone on the committee first when the authority was set up, people were merely using electricity for the purpose of lighting their homes but then again this growth is not because of the fact that people want to go into electric heating into their homes but now their standard of living has risen to a point where they can afford the essential appliances that are taken for granted in areas around the Avalon Peninsula and other areas in Newfoundland where they have been I would say very fortunate over the years to have such cheap electricity from hydro, Now if it is the government's policy, and no doubt it is 1 to get control of the public utilities in this Province, maybe taking control of the electrical and then going into other public services such as telephones and things of that nature, I have no doubt, Mr.

Chatrman, that we should not have in this small Province where we have a population of little better than a half a million people, we should not have any disparity in electrical rates or any public utility rates. There should be a uniform rate throughout the Province and this does not necessarily mean by having a uniform rate throughout the Province, Mr.

Chairman, that the people who live in the areas that have the climatic conditions are far worse, that to have the shorter daylight hours, are going to pay far more even at that, than what is being paid by the people who are on hydro in the urban areas of this Province. And that should not exist. That, Sir, is total discrimination and it should not be applied. I will give you a prime example, Mr. Chairman, and the minister is no douht aware, he has got a lot of information, he has got a lot of supporting data on the presentation from the Chamber of Commerce and the people in Happy Valley.

We have people in the Goose Bay area with a two bedroom house and an oil fired furnace who are paying during the Wintertime as much as $130 a month for electricity, My house on an average, I have a very, I will just say modern house, nothing elaborate, 467;:i

April 18, 1975 Tape No, 1570 NM - 2 my light bill, winter and sunnner averages between $55 a month to $75 a month. Now when you compare that to what people are paying on an average of $10 to $15, maybe some of the houses in the city up to $30 a month now, if that is the case for an ordinary house, that is a lot of money, But then when you look at that, and we are not going to solve that problem, Mr. Chainnan, what we are busy looking for is a unified rate and then you pay the penalty for living in the North, if you want to call it that.

If you chose to live in climatic conditions where the climate is more severe, it costs you more for heatinr, it costs you more for electricity, then this is fine. You accept that, but then you should not pay a higher rate because of the fact that you have elected to live in that particular area of the Province, Now this is the type of policy that we had hopef that the winister, when we talked about energy and we talked about this great energy policy and we are going to get control of the developments, we are going to give the benefits and going back to yesterday, Mr.

Chairman, where the minister even indicated, not in so many words, but indicated the fact that we would set aside a surplus of power to take care of the residential growth over the next few years. We are not going to attract heavy industry to consume large blocks of power anymore in this Province. We are concerned about citizens. We are concerned about having a continuous supply set aside in the event that something goes wrong and we are not going to have our people - I think that type of bankirg, that type of security is p,ood for this Province. But then again, 4674

April lR, 1975 Tape 1571 (morning) IB-1 we should not. Now, where the diesel generated sector of the Province is hecoming less and less, and the cost to get a unified rate is not going to be that great, I think we talked in terms of less than $700,000. When the study was made we said, okay, we can take $700,000 and apply one rate for electricity ell throughout the Province. I think that is the case. When we think in terms of the vast sums of money now, ~r.

Chairman, that are going to be spent in the development of hydro, thinking in terms of maybe $2 billion for the Lower Churchill alone, the mere pittance of $700,000 is nothing. We should not even look at it. What the minister should say, go to his colleagues in cabinet, we are going to have one rate in this Province. We are going to stop this discrimination that exists. We are not going to have regional disparity in this little Province of ours and we are ~ ing to go ahead with a unified rate. I think that type of policy would lend itself and apply to people who are in need.

The people who are in need of this type of policy, Mr. Chairman, are the people who are subjected to the climatic conditions for long periods of time, where you have an eight month heating season, where your furnace is continuously cuttj_ng in and cutting out. Now, the other problem is the fact that we are going to try to stop the growth of the, and the high consumption of electrical,diesel generated. ~r. Chairman, if you stop this, then you are going to stop the standard of living.

The minister can understand that in rural ~ewfoundland, especially in the Coastal Labrador areas where the consumption is going up - I know how high it is going up, I know the increase in the consumption of diesel fuel at the power plants over the last four to five years. I have had the good fortune to deliver the fuel to them. Well, what happens in this case, Sir. They are not going to heating.

They are merely moving away from the two or three or four electrical bulbs that we have in the house, they are putting in the odd washer l we are putting in the odd electrical range, we are putting in the odd automatic dryer. Now, we cannot deprive people of that type of thing. Neither can we restrict them from doing this. That is the thing that has been 467~

April 18, 1975 Tape 1571 (morning) !11-2 taken for gr~ted for a number of years. We would like to continue on with that sort of a thing. But:, Mr. Chairman, as the thing develops, then this sort of a thing,if we do not come to some gr1.ps with the rates, it will be eventually with the increased cost of fuel and everything goe-il up, it will be out of the reacb of the people. So, they are going to have to cut back on the ciro,sumption of electricity.

Then they are goii:lg to have to do without thdr automatic dryers, thdr automatic washers and a number of other things unless the minister and •his government can see fit to come to grips with the problem and say, yes, there 1-s one rate for electricity in Newfoundland regardless of how it is generated, whether hydro, diesel or whatever the case. On motion llead XI, Mines and Energy, without amendment, car-ried. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Inaudible • MR . BARRY: Could you fiJid the honourable the Rouse L.eader there, Mr, Chairman? MR, WOODWARD: Mt.

Chairman, I m1111t advise the Committee that we do not have a quorum. 4670

April 18, 1975 Tape no, 1572 Page 1 - mw MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a quorum. MR. CROSBIE: The next head is the Department of Health, MR. CHAIRMAN: Head X, Department of Health, page sixty-two, 1001-01• The Hon. Minister of Health. HON. DR. A. ROWE (Minister of Health): Mr. Chairman, I am happy to introduce the estimates for the Department of Health.

In presenting the Department of Health estimates, I would like to put on record some remarks concerning the department's achievements during the past year and as well to inform the people of the Province about some of the activities that will be going on in the health field in 1975, Health is not a particularly easy department to administer with a staff of 1,180 a budget this year of $170 million, This includes some $34 million for capital expenditures and $136 million for estimated current expenditures.

And a review of the budget will show that of the current expenditures some eighty per cent is now utilized in the cost of operating general hospitals. Hospital construction is continuing on a number of projects in various areas of the Province. We are nearing the end of a four year $100 million health facility construction and modernization progrsmme. We are about to commence a five to seven year prograllDl!e of similar magnitude. And while we are pleased with progress, there is much more to be done and all of this cannot be conmenced in one year.

The capital expenditures must be phased to our financial capabilities, Last year saw the completion of new community health centres at St.

Alban's and Port Saunders and a new medical clinic at Port Hope Simpson, a new out-patient and diagnostic clinic in addition to the Come By Chance Hospital was also completed,and improvements to out-patient facilities for the hospital at North West River, Before the end of 1975-1976 financial year, a new hospital under construction at Twillingate, Carbonear and the extension to the Waterford Hospital will be completed, the new extension to the hospital at Corner Brook will be finised and renovations to the existing hospital nearing completion.

The first phase of the major hospital expansion at Bonavista, that of a new out-patient and diagnostic facility 46 ·1,. f

April 18, 1975 Tape no. 1572 Page 2 - mw is nearing completion and the construction of acconmodation for health workers at St. Anthony is nearing completion. Now the largest single project, the Health Sciences Complex being constructed on Memorial University campus is continuing with the completion

schedule for 19761 as I informed the honourable House yesterday. I would like to note here, Mr. Chairman, that the rapid escalating construction and material costs and some delays caused by labour problems have necessitated an increase in the budget for this project from $45 million to $51 million. This is the figure used in the budget speech. One could not have adequately predicted the rate of escalation in construction, materials and labour costs at the time the original budget for this project was prepared some four years ago.

And lengthy labour problems could, of course, cause further delays to the completion of the project and have a serious implication on maintaining the integrity of the budget. Now this year, Mr.

Chairman, in addition to completion and continuation of the major project under construction, funds are being provided for the continuation of planning,and certain conatruction of hospital facilities continued at Bonavista and the beginning of Clarenville and the Burin Penins~, Grand Falls and Happy Valley, Much planning has already been done on these projects and architectual planning will be completed in 1975 to permit an early start on construction, The architects and the consultants have been appointed for the planning of Bonavista. We have already appointed 4678

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1573 NM - 1 the hospital consultants for the Clarenville and the Burin Peninsula hospitals and their functional planning studies have been completed. And again,as I informed the House a week or so ago, we are in the process of appointing architects and project managers for the latter two hospitals and we hope that actual construction can get unden1ay later this year. Provision has again been made in the 1975-76 capital estimates for the start on the planning of the new hospitals for Placentia and Channel.

I have to comment that as far as Grand Falls is concerned that a satisfactory agreement has been reached between government and the Central Newfoundland Hospital Board, allowing for expansion to an expenditure of $20 million. This will allow the phasing in of the needs on a priority basis, firstly the ambulatory care facilities to be followed by the increase in beds of 118 to a total of 301. But a combined effort on behalf of the l1osp1tal board and government will continue to endeavour to significantly reduce costs and to permit a phased progr81DJ11e of construction spread over several years.

The Central Newfoundland Hospital is important as a regional referral centre in the provision of the additional facilities to enable that hospital to carry out this role have to be achieved at some reasonable cost but must be phased over a period of four to five years. And although the above, Mr. Chairman, represents a massive outlay of capital funds, there are other projects on which studies have been done and on which construction has to be phased within the next few years.

These include expansion of the Janeway Child Health Centre, the improved facilities at the Grace General Hospital and the upgrading and replacement of several cottage hospitals. I would add, Mr. Chairman, that every cottage - hospital, every government hospital has in my time been surveyed regarding the structure and regarding the physical plant and recommendations have been made to the department regarding renovations or rebuilding. In this regard I would lile to announce what I would call a seven year forecast for the construction of hospitals and other health facilities. 467~

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1573 NM - 2 If I could take a moment, if you look at the increasing attention and expenditures that must be devoted in the years ahead to preventive and to public health and to non-institutional health services, major efforts must still be maintained to improve and expand our health institutions. And therefore, within the department for purposes of planning, we have prepared a preliminary seven year forecast for construction of new facilities and the expansion and renovation of existing facilities.

The date of commencement of construction and the_ phasinp of any particular project must be considered in the context of an overall plan which is related to the Province's ability to provide the necessary funds. And such a plan,! would like to point out, is sub1ect to regular review and priorities in phasing of these developments can be effected by emergence of new health problems and pressures and by variations in economic planning.

But nevertheless in our seven year forecast, for the period from April 1, 1975 to March of 1982, the following projects, whether thEy be renovation, expansion or totally new construction are scheduled to be completed and I list them alphabetically and not in any order or priority, They include Bonavista, phases one and two, the MJ.

Boylen Hospital at Baie Verte, the Burin Peninsula Hospital, the Carbonear Hospital, Central Newfoundland, Channel, Clarenville, community clinics and here we have up to thirty scheduled for various areas around the Province, the Grace General Hospital, certain additional facilities, most in line with services and teaching, the conversion of the old General Hospital to the convalescent and chronic care unit, the Health Sciences Complex, the International Grenfell Association hospitals aTid nursing stations, particularly those at Nain and the ones that are planned for Flowers Cove and for Forteau, the Janeway Child Health Centre, the Padden Melrorial Hospital at Happy Valley about which we have recently had some discussions with delegations from that area and the need here is urgent because of the fact that it is planning for the Lower Churchill and also because of the possibility of the oil, Eastcan expansion 1 Placentia 4680

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1575 NM - 3 Hospital, we have agreed to undertake planning, set aside a specific amount of money for this. We talk about rehabilitation facilities and the need to expand the present children's rehabilitation centre and space in the old General Hospital for adult rehabilitation, The Twillingate Hospital, the Waterford Hospital, the Western Memorial Hospital, and I will have to mention also somewhere in the planning, a special public health building to accommodate the many Departments of Health which are now outside the main centre.

In addition to the above projects, the plan envisages a significant expenditure on the conversion and the upgrading of the cottage hespitals and improvement · projects to other hospitals whose planning and priority still require further work. But I would like to point out that these are plans, these are our forecasts. We have a time sheet which we use within the department.

This obviously will vary every few months or every six months when some priority, some develop, some crisis or catastrophe in a hospital or an area which requires some expansion, but these new expenditures and the total expenditures in the seven year forecast for health construction is up towa•ds of $200 million and I would say that hopefully, if the economic climate is such that we continue, we would like to think of perhaps up to $30 million a year for four or five years and then having reached these plateaus, to gradually decline annually.

Now, it is interesting here when you talk about capital expenditures to review. In the period 1968 to 1971, for instance, the total amount budgeted for capital and actually spent was $12 million, in 1968 to 1971. In the past three years,from 1972 to 1975,the amount spent was $52 million,which as you must agree is a pretty considerable increase in capital costs, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) in Grand Falls. DR. ROWE: Not entirely. But I think it would be relevant here to also refer to the fact that across Canada the ratio of hospital beds to population is nine beds for every thousand persons.

In Hewfoundland, counting all those beds under construction, plus the present facilities, 4681

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1575 NM - 4 when these are all completed we will still have only six beds per thousand or three beds per thousand below the national average. And if you remember also that many of our beds are not up to what we would consider the standards required by the Canadian Accreditation surveyors, these in time will have to be replaced. But by any standards, I do not see how we can have sufficient hospital beds of adequate standard for probably the next decade.

And however important and expensive as these construction projects are by themselves, they are not the answer to many of the health needs of the people of this Province. And the whole area of preventive and public health services requires increased effort, and good medical care presumes access to a physician in this regard, perhaps one of the most satisifyinp. achievements in Health has been the overall increase of 146 doctors since 1971. We now have 560 doctors working,which is one doctor per 970 perople. St.

John's has one doctor per 550 persons,which is . about the national average and especially for Ontario and British Columbia, the two best off Provinces. But even in the so called over-doctored Provinces, the problem of maldistribtuion exists as it does here and it poses one of our real problems for satisfying the medical needs in the rural areas. I would have to mention here the problem of the bursary students who are not fulfilling their obligation to give return-in-service. This is well known, We have discussed it every year. The previous administration had discussed it.

Last year four of our new graduates failed to honour their commitment. I anticipate certainly an equal number in this year. And beyond action to recover the monies owed to government there seems to be little that we can do but decry the lack of responsibility which these doctors have adopted to what is a moral oblip.ation. They seem to think that returning the money is the answer. That is not the answer. Their education has been paid for out of government funds. What we require back, Mr.

Chairman, is not the refund of money but these doctors to go to places in Newfoundland where their services are required and I would be very happy to hear suggestions from any honourable member as to how he thinks that we could put some teeth into this obligation. 4682

April 18, 1975 Tape 1574 (morning) IB-1 Actually we did two years ago stop the programme, and it is operating now only for those medical students who had been brought under this arrangement prior to, I think it was December of 1973. We have not taken on any new medical students since that time, hut we are continuing the same programme for dental students. I think the House also, ~r. Chairman, would like to know in looking at these estimates that in the year 1974 although the Province was free of major epidemics, onr, very important thing was the occurrence of seven cases of diphtheria.

This served as a reminder of the need that we must maintain a very vigorous programme of preventive immunization. We gave over 200,000 doses of vaccine given by public health nurses in 1974 to infants and school children. So, we gave over 200,000 doses of various vaccines in 1974, given by public health nurses. In 1975 we plan to expand the preventive immunization programme. I think that we should note also that just five visits to the doctor or nurse, five visits will now protect a baby against seven different diseases.

These five visits will protect them from dip~theria, from whooping cough, from polio, from lockjaw, from measles, from German measles and the mumps. I think that it is worth recording that we do encourage every mother with an infant to have these inoculations and thus prevent the child from the seven diseases that I mentioned. Another interesting point is the decline in infant mortality in this Province. We now are down to a figure of 19.3 per thousand live hirths. It is the lowest on record in this Province, but it 1.s still slightly below the national average which runs from about fourteen to seventeen.

In recognizing the importance of the healthy child population, the Department of Health in 1975 are seeking to recruit two physicians to work in the school health programme. As you know, we have Dr. Neville-Smith who is doing tremendous work as a chief school medical health officer. She will now be assisted by two others, one of whom is being recruited for Corner Brook and another one now being recruited to work out of Grand Falls. We hear sometimes complaints about the delay it takes to have inspection services done by the public health inspectors. I would like 4683

April 18, 1975 Tape 1574 (morning) Ill-2 to point out that in the past year we have increased the staff of the inspection division by five inspectors to meet the increasing demands for service. One of these included a resident from Northern Coastal Labrador and he is presently working in that area and two more are presently receiving training at the Public Health Inspection Center at the Ryerson Institute in Toronto, and they will be returning to work in the Province. But, Mr. Chairman, in 1974 the number of inspectors we had completed in excess of 37,00n inspections.

Of this 37,000, 13,000 were in relation to food control activity and 12,000 related to sanitation such as sewage disposal, drinking water quality, pest control, etc. But, there are a number of health or health related problems to which we must in conjunction with other government and non-government agencies address ourselves more intensively. The Throne Speech made mention of nutrition as one of the areas that we see in health which should have a greater priority.

We have set up an interdepartmental committee on nutrition with representatives from the Department of Social Services, Education, Rehabilitation and Recreation and the Social Policies Secretariate. This committee has a brief to produce later this year with specific implementible proposals for raising the nutritional status of Newfoundlanders.

One of the major problems is that although Newfoundlanders eat more calorie•wise - if y~u looked at the results of the Canada Nutritional Survey last year which was most interesting it points out that while Newfoundlanders are not short of food, we do not include in our diets certain of the more nutritious things. We fill up on calories mainly. We have been saying for some time that we have within the Department of Health and Health Education Division, diets, low cost nutrition diets 1 if you can call diets today low cost.

But, as fa.r as possible, our dietitians and nutritionists, looking at the food prices across Newfoundland,have developed what they call good nutrition diets at as low a cost as possible. We have been advertising them. The public can write in to the Health Education Tiivision and obtain copies of these low cost nutrition diets. 4684

April 18, 1975 Tape 1574 (morning) We have not had very much in the way of requests thus far, but one is hoping that the message will get across thst we can provide people with diets which are explained in a simple way ~s to the foods that they should be eating and some idea of the cost of producing these diets. I think I can mention too that there has been considerable discussion about the problems of alcoholism. Most have been in co-operation with my colleague, the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation, under whose estimates this vote appears.

We are interested in from the medical point of view of establishing within the IB-3 Province a number of detoxification centers.I expect you will be hearing more about the whole alcoholic programme from my colleague when he presents his estimates. But, in any case, it is a very important item when you consider the human misery that is caused when you AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: What type of sinners were you referring to? DR. FOWE: Pardon? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: What type of sinners were you referring to? DR. ROWE: Sinners? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Alcoholics. DR. ROWE: Alcoholics. What you call detoxification centers.

These are people who get into almost the D.T. 's. We do not really have enough - we do not have any real centers where they can be taken and specifically treated and cared for. Now, in New Brunswick they have just developed a very good programme along this line, and I hope to think that in the not too distant future we will be able to go up there and have a look at exactly what they have. But, detoxification centers - it is not enough just to dry out the person who is an alcoholic. It is not enough just to dry them out.

We should have detoxification centers where we can do some real alcoholic medical rehabilitation. A word about the effectiveness of community oriented programmes. It depends largely upon the personnel that we have to carry out these programmes. The question of manpower, the implications for increased personnel, for nutritionists, for social workers, for health educators, 4685

April 18, 1975 Tape 1574 (morning) and especially for public health nurses - at the present time for example, ninety-nine nurses are providing the public health nursing services to our communities. The nurses' emphasis is primarily on IB-4 health promotion for all th• family although health counsel]in~, teaching, demonstrating and providing nursing care and emotional support are also given. I have been saying that one of our most difficult people to recruit are public health nurses. It is not generally understood. These are first of all graduate RN nurses.

They then go away for a period of a year>and Dalhousie has been the main training center,to do a year~ training in public health nursing. We endeavor to encourage girls to go away and do this. We are recruiting a number from the United Kingdom but they are in short supply and we are trying to devise ways and means of encouraging more of our nurses to go into this by virtue really of a pilot project which was started at Memorial University School of Nursing last year for a public health nursing programme.

If this can be expanded, we can look forward to producing our own public health nurses among our own RN's within the Province. We realize that with the limited number of public health nurses, only ninety-nine, that we are only giving perhaps a limited seTVice. We are doing the best we can. We do have a programme to expand this. Again with regard to dental services, the same thing applies. We have a dental programme which is well known. It has been in for many years looking after dental health for children up to the eleventh birthday.

Rut, the officials tell me that if you look at the percentage of figures, only about thirty-eight per cent of the children who could have taken advantage of this managed to get treatment last year because of the inadequate number of dentists and paradental personnel. We have a number of dental hygienists on our staff. They go into the schools. They give information to the children on dental health. The hygienists conduct clinical sessions. They are a very important part of the dental team. We again desire to expand this. 4686

April 18, 1975 Tape 1974 (morning) MR. WOODWARD: Are you training the dental hygienists within the Province? DR. ROWE: doing - Not within the Province, no. They are again at Dalhousie AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. IB-5 DR. ROWE: Yes. At the moment we have seventy-six dentists registered in the Province. Thirty-eight of these or fifty per cent have received government subsidy assistance during their dental studies. There are five others who received financial assistance from the government for the purpose of locating a practice within a rural co111111unity, in other words, brought in from outside.

There has been a net increase of dentists of from fifty to seventy-six since 1968. But we do have unfortunately the worse dental population ratio in Canada, one to 7,000 compared with the Canadian average better than about one in 3,000. So, we can be criticized for the lack of dentists. There are several arguments. We have not had success in having Newfoundland students admitted to Dalhousie Dental School. There is a difficulty with getting Newfoundlanders into other dental schools. We had a recruitment progra111111e in the last year and brought out three.

We now have a number of applicants from the United Kingdom who will be interviewed in the near future to come to Newfoundland to set up practices, and hopefully 468'7

April 18, 1975 Tape 1575 (Morning) PK - 1 we will beef it up by another five to seven this year. We developed a new, I think, an attractive recruitment prograJ1111le for dentists to encourage them to come to this Province. But not only getting them here but the question of having them to remain here is one of the important asides, Mr. Chairman, the problem of keeping them in the rural areas. We already have been through the problem of medical students, and it is no less difficult to recruit and retain dentists for the rural areas.

The mobile dental clinic that I mentioned last year is now in the final stages of construction and we have arranged for two drivers from the government car pool to go up to Toronto at the end of April to drive this back to Newfoundland when it will be placed into operation in the early Spring. We have geared it this year to work on the West Coast, somewhere in the area between Stephenville and Port aux Basques where there is a lack of dental services, and this will make it fairly complete.

When you are talking of dental services we should mention that flnoridation, of course, is one of the most desirable approaches and we are endeavouring to develop this concept in co-operation with my colleague the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. A letter is on the way to councils, if it is not already gone - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. BR. ROWE: - and we are offering to pay a fair bit of the cost of introducing fluoridation. And I think that the town of St. Alban's is showing ar example this year by asking to be included in the - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. BR.

ROWE: Up between fifty and one hundred per cent, but I have some more figures if you need them. HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. BR. ROWE: I do not know if it was ever pushed but we will go up to one hundred per cent if the community really says they want it. AN HON. MEMBER: DR. ROWE: MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. But we are trying now to stimulate the - Inaudible. 46.88

April 18, 1975 Tape 1575 (Morning) PK - 2 DR. ROWE: Pardon? MR, ROBERTS: (Inaudible) make it mandatory by legislation. DR. ROWE: Well I understand that one of the difficulties here is that the City of St. John's, for instance, have somewhere in their by-laws that they have to have a plebiscite before they can bring in fluoridation. MR. ROBERTS: This House overrules the City of St. John's. DR. ROWE: But as I understand, I mean that is one aspect that immediately comes to mind when you ask the question. MR. COLLINS: What did the member do about it when he was the Minister of Health? MR. ROBERTS: MR.

COLLINS: Health? MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: DR. ROWE: I am sorry? What did you do with it when he was Minister of I pushed it but it did not go far enough. Inaudible. But any way we find not~ - We are trying together to push it now in a more democratic way of saying, you must have it. We are trying to encourage them - MR. ROBERTS: What measure is the minister taking that he has not taken before? BR. ROWE: A combined letter with my colleage to every town council in the Province offering the progra1DD1e and asking them to get involved in the programme. MR. ROBERTS: DR. __ ~WE: MR. ROBERTS: DR.

ROWE: MR. CROSBIE: That is the total extent of the new effort. No 1 it is not the total extent of the new - Well what goes on that? Discussion with the dental - On a point of order, Mr. Chairman . Can the minister speak uninterrupted without this caterwauling across the House? MR. ROBERTS: ••••• If he does not want to. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 468~

April 18, 1975 Tape 1575 (Morninp) PK - 3 MR, CHAIRMAN: Order, please! There is a certain amount of leeway provided and allowed at certain times when ministers and C. member~ engage in a discussion that each agrees to. However it appeared that the minister was being interrupted continuously by the honourable member, Maybe it will have to be revised - AN HON. MEMBER: ••••• his bully boy to do it for him. \ (T\f\ l:,. h::: MR. ROBERT~: Let the minister look after himself. DR, ROWE: I am quite able to look after myself. MR. ROBERTS: That is what I just said. BR. ROWE: Thank you. MR, ROBEKTS: Inaudible.

BR. -~OWE: I would like to go on to discuss the increasing industrial activity in the Province, and I think it is becoming more critical and there is a clear need for the Department of Health to develop and to improve its capacity in industrial health by establishing a Division of Industrial Health. Now this is not new. It was told to you last year. There is not one full-time official devoted to this important area in Health, and industry carries with it many health hazards not alone to individual employees but on occasion to members of the general public and to the environment.

Many of these hazards are well known and controlled but others may exist and require attention. Accordingly since I presented the last estimates or - we have advertised for a Director of O~cupational Health Services. It was advertised extensively in Canada, in the States and in the United Kingdom. Unfortunately this type of specialist is very much in short supply, and we have not to date received an encouraging response to our advertisements. We have actually had three applications but no really acceptable candidate.

And I think it may indeed be necessary for an official of my department to be given such additional training as may be required and assigned to this important activity. And the 4690

April 18, 1975 Tape no. 1576 Page 1 - mw Minister of Mines, whose department is most affected, and myself are having discussions along this line. But health services and the demand for health services are not static. And new developments and new pressures, the increasing standards of expectation,all make the management of health services a demanding . and difficult and sometimes an extremely difficult exercise. And a good example of this is the one we had in the House recently on the question of acupuncture.

And as background we are aware that it is an ancient practice in China, sud for some considerable period it was conducted in Chinese communities in Canada. But there has not been until very recently a general movement towards the more widespread application among the community at large. But the pressure for acupuncture is now with us. And one of the problems concerned with thia pTactice is that the impact of acupuncture in the use of relief of pain, as a certain form of anesthesia. And there seems little doubt that many individuals have obtained considerable relief of their syaptona from. acupuncture.

And at a recent national conference at which my department was represented by the associate deputy minister, they set out a nuaber of recommendations and guidelines for the practice of blis. And essentially these reco11111endations, as I informed the House last week, state that acupuncture must be considered a medical or a dental act which should be carried out by fully qualified physicians with additiml.al special training in the technique of acupuncture.

Acupuncture is still in the experimental stage and should be practiced under conditions where objective scientific evaluation can take place such as a clinic or a teacling hospital. In this regard the Newfoundland Medical Association, with their parent body, the Canadian Medical and our provincial department with the federal department are at present discussing necessary legislative and regulatory mechanisms to ensure that there is an ethical and safe practice of acupuncture in the Province. When you look at the activities that I have mentioned, Mr.

Chairman, all of these demand plaMing and development divisions, and it seems that in government there is an inadequate and an inordinate -ount 4691

April 18, 1975 Tape no, 1576 Page 2 - mw of time apparently to planning, but I think that essentially in something as important as health, we cannot move too much in an ad hoc direction but must intend to do things on a monitored than a planned basis. I could talk about many other aspects of the Health Department. I could talk about our philosophy that no one in the Province should be more than half an hour from some primary care facility.

I could talk about the new ambulance programme, the extension of programmes to pl~ce more government hospitals under local boards, the question of rehabilitation and geriatrics,and the development of programmes to assist individuals with drugs, dentures and eyeglasses. And it is true that we have not up to now announced a progranme, but a specific progranme regarding these is being developed and the question comes back to, of course, how many dollars can be provided to give sectors of our community these facilities?

And I think we have to be very careful in trying to define which ~ategories of the population are most in need. It is not necessarily the old people, It might be the people marginally economic with large families.

So there has to aome really in-depth study and again, I think, perhaps we should even talk about the question of co­ insurance, But I believe that if we can once get this programme established, and I am hopeful that it will be, I think then we will have a comprehensive health system which we all can be pretty proud of and as good as most of those that operate across Canada and certainly better than most other countries.

I could discuss for a little while the health objectives we have set ourselves for 1975 but no doubt these will come up under the various items, But I think that in presenting a budget of $170 million, I felt it necessary to provide the committee with some detailed

preamble to the health estimates so that the honourable members of the House will have some generalized idea of our health programmes and plans, and I think that this is difficult to assess when you just look at the studJ, 4692

April 18, 1975 Tape no. 1576 Page 3 - - of individual figures shown under the subheads. I am happy. Mr. Chairman, to continue to answer any questions on the health estimates to the best of my ability, 469J

April 18, 1975 Tape 1577 (Morning) PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Chairman, - if they get enthusastic nbout that, Mr. Chairman, I would hate to see what would happen if a good speech had been made. I listened with interest to what the minister read. Let me right at the outset, Sir, apologize to the Committee for slurring my words. It is not the ordinary reason why members on the other side slur their words, Sir. I was in the hands of the Dental Branch of the medical profession this morning.

I am not sure what the technical term is but I have a portion of my lower jaw frozen, it does affect some of the sibilances and I cannot be quite in - MR. EVANS: ~id you have your brain frozen t;1e same time? MR. ROBERTS: No. The honourable Member for Burgeo, Sir, has shown us what happens when a person's mental processes have degenerated, not when they have been frozen. MR. EVANS: ~ou did not have them to deteriorate. Y~u were born like it. MR.

ROBERTS: Now, Sir, I would like to raise one or two points of general concern, and I would hope on the health estimates as on the other estimates throughout the piece, you know, the debate will be mainly on this first subheading 1101-01 - I am sorry the 1001-01 subheading, and then when we have done that the individual heads will probably be dealt with quickly by the Committee. It is hard to know where to start, Mr.

Chairman, because the record of this administration in health has been one of greatly increasing expenditares for which they can claim neither credit nor responsibility, no significant improvements in services, no new programmes or no innovative measures taken in three years in office. And today we are at the point where I understand almost every hospital in the Province has told the government that they are not receiving anything like adequate funds, and indeed I understand that some of them are saying that unless they get more money than is is provided in the estimates they are going to have to reduce services.

Now let me deal first of all with one specific instance of this, the International Grenfell Association who provide medical services to all of Labrador except Labrador City and the City of Wabush, and who provide services to all of the people who live in St. Barbe North and 4694

April 18, 1975 Tape 1577 (Morning) PK - 2 White Bay North, and a significant number of the Deonle who 11VP in the electorical District of St. Barbe South. I understand there is a meeting that has been arranged. I believe the minister is to be aske ·d although he is certainly not the major character in the piece. The meeting is between representatives of the I, G.A. and representatives of the Premier, indeed,I am sure the Premier himself - I am not sure, but it may be scheduled to be held Monday or Tuesday of next week. The I.G.A. asked for this meeting, Mr.

Chairman, because the amount of money which the government made available to them after protracted negotiations was such that the LG.A. were going to have to significantly reduce the level of services which thev offer. Now thRt is nothing new to the minister. I have here,a number of other people do, my colleague from Labrador North has it as well. a coov of a letter dated March 17 which was sent by Dr. Thomas at St. Anthony, the Executive Hirector of the I.G.A. to the Minister of Health, the gentleman from Carbonear. And perhaps I should ask the minister at the outset - I have not spoken to Dr.

Thomas about this matter since-have the matters in this changed or is this still the situation? DR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I think that this particular matter which was brought up by Dr. Thomas is the item for discussion on Tuesday in meeting with the Premier, and I do not feel at this time that the question should be really discussed. AN HON. MEMBER: Well. DR.

ROWE: It is a request from the I.G.A. for additional funds for their operation, and that they would wish to discuss it entirely with the Premier, and I do not feel at this time that I should get into controversy on the items that they mentioned until this meeting has been held. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the minister's feeling but I do ~ot accept it. DR. ROWE: That is fair enough. MR. ROBERTS: You know the meeting is being held next week at the request of the I . G.A. It is being held as a sort of a desperation measure because they have gone through all of the normal avenues, and 4695

April 18, 1975 Tape 1577 (Morning) l'K - 3 the allocations made by the mini3ter or by his staff, by the minister reflected in the estimates he now brings before us, are not a matter of additional funds to enable them to expand their services, but are a matter of providing them with enough funds to enable them to carry on their present services. The amount of money involved is $400,000 , and 1 have no idea what the 1. G.A. budget is. In my days as minister we used to make that available in the estimates but the present minister has changed that pr actice. But 1 assume it is of the order of $4 million or $5 million or $6 million. 469ti

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1578 NM - 1 I think perhaps, Sir, I should begin by reading the letter and I may say it has been sent to me as the Member for White Bay North. It has been sent as well to my colleague from Labrador North because it effects the health services being offered, not new services, not additional services but the services presently being offered.

And I may say the minister to whom this is addressed, the llinister of Health, is a man who has several times publicly,and we had releases from Information Newfoundland to bolster this, has told us that the I.G.A. continue to be the government's chosen agent for the delivery of health services in the portion of the Province in which they operate. Now against the light of that commitment by the minister, let us look at what is going to happen unless the administr~tion change their mind,and I would stress, Mr.

Chairman, and I would hope the minister will deal with this, that the meeting with the Premier is a last step, a final resort, negotiations with the minister have proved to be of no avail, expressions of good will,I have no doubt,but no cash. Negotiations at the official level have proven even more frustrating and now the I.G.A. are faced either with getting the money, the assurance of the money at the meeting on Monday or Tuesday or they are going to reduce services. Now, Sir, that is why I bring the matter up now, because I hope that the government will provide the LG.A. with this extra money.

Let me just read the letter, I think that puts it in the prospective. It is addressed to the minister. It is dated March 17. "Dear Dr. Rowe, Whilst we appreciated the visit of Mr. Hearn and Mr. Osborne," who as Your Honour,I am sure,is aware are officials I believe in the Hospital Insurance Division of the departt-ent, ''Whilst we appreciated the visit of Mr. Hearn and Mr. Osborne to discuss our projected budget for 1975, for our hospitals and nursing stations, we were extremely disappointed with the results ·and with the information conveyed to us by Mr. Hearn and by Mr. Osborne." DR.

ROWE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I wonder would it be considered ethical, Mr. Chairman, for this to be read out now if the meeting is not nntil Tuesday? 4691

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1578 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Why is it not ethical, Mr. Chaiman. The letter has been sent to me and I - DR. ROWE: I asked Mr. Chainnan for a ruling on that. MR. ROBERTS: Well to that point of order, Sir, obviously there is no point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: When the honourable the Leader of the Opposition was preparing to read the letter 1 or I anticipated he rright read the letter, I consulted my recollection of the rules and I do not think there was anything unparliamentary about the honourable Leader of the Opposition reading this letter.

It may or may not be the proper thin~ to do in the ordinary course of events, however,the Chair can only rule on things that are parliamentary or unparliamentary and if they are unethical or if there is any other reason why it should not be read unfortunately I cannot adjudicate upon that. MR. ROBERTS: I thank you)Your Honour •• It is perfectly ethical. The letter is not marked private. It is not marked confidential. It is - AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: It has been sent to me and I may add I have the permission of the author of the letter to raise the matter if I deem fit. MR. COLLINS: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: I said I had not been talking to him about the details of this letter, of course not. When I got the letter, if the gentleman from Gander is so tender let him stay and listen. Now I am prepared to table the letter, Your Honour, and I am not aware of any answers there may have been, I have no access to those, but a copy of the letter was sent to me, it was sent to my colleague from Labrador North, it was sent to the Chairman of the International Grenfell Association, it was sent to the Controller of the International Grenfell Association, sent to the two M.H.A.'s who are affected because, Sir, what Dr.

Thomas says in this letter - and I will obviously not be able to read it now until after lunch - is that the I .G.A. are going to have to close a number of their stations. They are r,oing to have to close a large part of the St. Anthony Hospital. They are i;oinp, to have 469tf

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1578 NM - 3 to close the nursing stations in Conche and Port Hope Simpson. They are going to have to withdraw all in-patients at Port Saunders, They are going to have to close the clinc at Englee, They are going to have to close six beds at Happy Valley. They are goint to have to cut the nursing staff, six beds out of twenty-three, is it not? AN HON. MEMBER: Twenty. MR.

ROBERTS: Out of twenty, they are going to have to close - that is thirty per cent, is it not, of the beds at Happy Valley - this is a serious matter, and if the minister attempts to suggest that it is unethical then he and I will have to take issue on that point. The minister can try to hide it, and sweep it under the rug, this minister's record, Sir, has been that he makes statements and he is overruled, The Padden Hospital people came in from Labrador, they now have an assurance of a hospital.

The budget had nothing in it for the Grand Falls Hospital, the board came in, the minister was overruled and now the Grand Falls Hospital is going ahead, Well that is well and good. AN HON. MEMBER: The minister was not overruled. MR. ROBERTS: Well if the :minister was not overruled he certainly was not supported. Mr. Chairman, does Your Honour want to call it one o'clock, it is about one o'clock? MR. CHAIRMAN! It now being one o'clock, I now leave the Chair until three o'clock this afternoon. 4699

April 18, 1975 The Connnittee reswned at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Chairman in the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Tape 1579 {Afternoon) MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, when the CollDllittee rose for lunch PK - 1 I had made some reference to a letter which had been sent by Dr. Thomas of the Grenfell Association to the Minister of Health, and I was proposing to read the letter, and I think I would like to begin my remarks at this point by so doing. The letter was dated, and of course, you know, if anybody wants it tabled then I am quite prepared to table it. There is no problem there.

Or if anybody in the press wants it they are quite welcome to it. It is not privileged in any way. And it was sent to me obviously for reference and use. AN HON. MEMBER: In the House. MR. ROBERTS : In the House or outside of the House,for the benefit of the gentleman for Bonavista South. MR. MURPHY: Do not be saucy now: MR. ROBERTS: In the House or outside of the House, under the House, above the House, in Hewfoundland, in Labrador, and in the rest of Canada, you know, anywhere. A letter is either marked confidential and private, in which case it is treated as such 1or it is a public document.

Why else would it have been sent? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. __ CHAIRM!iN: MR. _ROBERTS : Inaudible. Dear Dr. Rowe: Whilst we appreciated the - Inaudible. Order, please! Oh well March 17, St. Patrick's Day. If the Hon. Member for Bonavista South would like a copy - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.~OBERTS: you know, I would be delighted to - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: - send him one or a dozen if he wants. Dear Dr. Rowe: Whilst we appreciated the visit of Mr. Hearn and Mr.

Osbourne to discuss our projected budge~ for 1975 for our hespitals and nursing stations we were extremely disappointed with the results 4,uo

April 18, 1975 Tape 1579 (Afternoon) PK - 2 and with the information conveyed to us by Mr. Hearn and Mr. Osbourne. The net affect is that our - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, you know, if we are to engage in that sort of thing with the gentleman for Burgeo, I am prepared to, but I would just as soon not - MR. EVANS: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. ROBERTS: for Burgeo. MR. CHAIRMAN: You would not know how. No, I agree, Mr. Chairman, Order, please! I would not know how.with the honourable Member Order, please!

On a number of occasions now the Member for Burgen-LaPoile has interrupted the member who is speaktng AN HON. MEMBER: Name him! Name him! MR. CHAIRMAN: - and I would suggest that the interruptions cannot continuely indefinitely. So while I treat the matter with a certain amount of humour,eventually the axe will have to fall on the honourable member. AN HON. MEMBER: Right on tre - MR. ROBERTS: Well, Your Honour, if the axe were to .. fall on hie head it could not hurt him. 11 Dear Dr. Rowe: Whilst we appreciated the visit of Mr. Heacn and Mr.

Osbourne to discuss our projected budget for 1975 for our hospitals and nursing stations we were extremely disappointed with the results and with the information conveyed to us by Mr. Hearn and }!r. Osbourne. The net affect is that our budget needs to be reduced for all of our hospitals and nursing stations by at least $400,000 for this year. As the budget we 4701

April 18, 1975 Tape no. 1580 Page 1 - mw submitted was probably on the low side,and we feel very realistic and represented no new services that were not formerly approved, we feel that we are placed in an impossible situation. The International Grenfell Association has no funds that it can further allocate to the operating of hospitals, nursing stations or community health centres. A number of these latter projects, such as the community health centres at Roddickton.

Port Saunders, Port Hope Simpson, etc,, was entered into by us on the clear understanding that there would be no net cost incurred by the International Grenfell Association. A similar M situation exists in Happy Valley, as you know. I am glad to see the member for Labrador South here this afternoon because this affects his district very much so. He may already have heard of the problem, I am not sure. 11 Therefore, if we are to operate within the budget, as indicated to us by your officials, we must advise you that we shall immediately withdraw certain services, and we request rour permission to do so at once.

As the year is one-quarter over and any savings incurred would take another three months to become manifest, it is essential " that we take immediate and drastic action. Now perhaps I should add a word of explanation. Although this letter was written on 17th March and the government's fiscal year begins on the 1st day of April, all of the hospitals in this Province are now and have to my knowledge been always on a financial year which is the calendar year.

The hospital at Twillingate, of which my friend and colleague, the member for Twillingate is the board chairman, operates on a financial year which equals the calendar year. As far as I know all hospitals do throughout .Canada. I do not know why they are different from government but anyway they are. That is what Dr. Thomas, the author of this letter is referring to here, " He goes on: Insofar as St.

Anthony Hospital is concerned, with a short fall of a quarter of a million dollars, we feel that we should withdraw one half of our pediatric beds which are in service and thus cut down on the nursing and ancillary personnel. We should take steps to close the Department of Psychotherapy and Occupational therapy. We should close all psychiatric beds and transfer in the future any in-patients in psychiatry to St. John's, although this willnaturally incur increased 470Z

April 18, 1975 Tape no. 1580 Page 2 - mw costs to the Welfare Departmentfor transportation and to the hospitals in St. John's, nonetheless savings would result for our hospital. As we have to save approximately $65,000 in our nursing stations, we feel that we should immediately close two stations and would suggest the closure of Couche and Port Hope Sinipaon and the withdrawal of all in-patients at Port Saundess and operate that facility as an out-patient diagnostic clinic only. Further we would suggest that Englee be immediately closed.

Although demands at Happy Valley are great and additional beds are needed there, in order to effect a minimum of $25,000 savings in Happy Valley, we should immediately close six beds and thus cut the nursing staff." And as was pointed out this morning, six beds is approximately thirty per cent of the twenty beds which I am told are available at Happy Valley. II Dr. Thomas goes on: Your immediate consideration of these requests is sought, for we feel immediate and drastic action must be taken if we are to operate within this budget.

I am calling a special meeting of our executive committee to confirm the action suggested above and will have this action ratified by our board at the forthcoming full board meeting. I regret the necessity of the above, and feel that unless additional funds are forthcoming to meet our proposed budget, we have no other recourse because we, the I.G.A., have no additional funds available to us than are already II budgeted for. Sighed, yours sincerely, Gordon W. Thomas, M.D., F.R.C.Sc. Copies have been sent to me, as the member for White Bay North and to Mr. Meyer, who is the chairman of the I.G.A., to Mr.

Mack, who is the controller of the I.G.A. and to the gentleman from Labrador North. Now, Mr. Chairman, this letter, as it says, was written only after the budgetary process had gone the normal and proper route. And it was written, as I suggested this morning, and I repeat now, only as a matter of desperation. I do not know what the Grenfell Association budget is for this year or indeed for any year. I knew when I was in the Department of Health how much money the health department paid them or for that matter paid any other body to whom the department made funds available. But what Dr.

Thomas is saying in this let~er is that the govefnment have reduced by $400,000 the SIDII of money which 4703

April 18, 1975 Tape no, 1580 Page 3 - mw the I,G.:A. consider neceaaary to enable them to operate thei.r .services. Dr. Thomas is saying that if the government will not make 3'tailable that 1110ney - and up until this point, to my knowledge, the money hiss ®t been lllllde available. I am not aware of what reply has been made to that letter. I assume th.ere :has been a reply made - 4704

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1581 NM - 1 that unless that money is made available then the I.G.A. will have to cut their services. He outlines in detail~and I read them, what I would consider to be very, very serious cuts in the medical services available to the people of Labrador South, the people of St. Barbe North, to the people of part of St.

Barbe South and to the people of White Bay North,and indeed for that matter the people of Labrador NDrth, all of them in two connections 1 in the local connection that the first line of facilities are available, these will be reduced and cut back, nursing stations closed, beds closed,and then in the more general sense, the regional base hospital, the hospital at St. Anthony which serves as the regional referral facility for the area I described that the I.G.A. are responsible for,that would have its level of operations reduced sipnificantly. Now, Mr.

Chairman, all that I say is that I ask the minister to assure us that this will not happen. The minister can say that there is a meeting set up with the Premier and I know not whom else, obviously a very high level meeting, and I hope the meeting will produce a resolution of it, Butit is not enough for the minister to say that the matter awaits that meeting. Dr. Thomas has eaid 1and this is a public letter speaking for the Grenfellpeople 1and I believe it is well known in Happy Valley that they are going to have to take this action,and I assume it is well known in the other areas they serve.

So we stand on the verge of a very serious reduction in health services, and this from a government that is coming into this Committee and asking for $14 million more to operate the hospitals this year than they did last year on the shared cost portion of the Hospital Insurance and the Hospital Operation Programme. Mr. Chairman, it is not good enough.

It is the first time to my knowledge in many years that we have even been on the verge of this sort of action, I know that hospital boards are in a continuous and a continuing, you could call it a row or an ani.11\ated discussion, a heated discussion with government, they always want more money than the government are able to make available,and they always feel they need more money than the government feel they can make available and there is nothing wrong with quite a dynamic 4705

April 18, 1975 Tape No. 1581 NM - 2 tension existing between the boards on the one hand and the Department of Health on the other. But if I know Dr. Thomas,and I think I know him well, he has been a constituent of mine for ten years now. he has been a constituent of mine and a very fine citizen indeed, Gordon Thomas, a man of stature and ability, a fact that is widely recognized by anybody who has c0!11e in contact with him. He is not a man to make idle threats nor is he a man to write this sort of letter unless he felt driven to it.

I will have more to say if the minister cannot satisfy us, but if the minister can satisfy the point then I am willing to let it drop. I raise it now only because March 17, today is April 18, in the month to my knowledge there has been no resolution of this problem which means we are one month further into the year and we now have only eight or nine months left in which the I.G.A. must save an amount of $400,000 out of their total budget. That matter is urgent. It is serious.

It is important and it very much affects the quality 6f health care available to the people who live in Northern Newfoundland and Southern and Eastern Labrador. The services there are good,but they are certainly not as g00d as they should be, not as good as they will be, not as good as they must be. And the services, Sir, will be seriously reduced if the government do not provide the I.G.A. with enough money. Now if the minister feels that the I.G.A. are wastin~ money then let him say so.

But in the absence of such an assertion,which I would not expect the minister to make,to be quite honest, I would be surprised if he were to take that position, If he cannot take that position then he must either assure this Committee that the government will provide the I.G.A. with enough money or we are going to have to realize the fact that these services are going to be reduced. The people in those areas have a right to know that it is the government that is reducing them and not anybody else and a right to know why. Now, Sir, I will leave that for the time being.

There are a number of other points I wanted to touch upon in a fairly general way. 4706

April 18, 1975 Tape 1582 (Afternoon) PK - 1 I would like to ask the minister, Mr. Chairman, how accurate his estimates are? The minister has a notable habit of bringing estimates before the CoI1D11ittee that turn out to be less than accurate. For example, last year the request for subhead 1015-06-01,which is only one subhead, it may be said,except that one subhead this year is $85 millions out of a total expenditure of $104 million. It is a very substantial subhead.

This is the vote out of which all of the operating costs of all of our hospitals are paid with the exception of a very few directly government run hospitals that are listed lower down in the estimates. He told us he was going to spend $61 million. He actually spend $71 million. That may incilude salary increases. But the minister,if he recalls~I am sure will recall that he and I had quite a tedious argument here in the CoI1D11ittee last year, where he refused to indicate just what sort of salary increases were being contemplated. Well,you know $10 million blank cheque is a pretty big blank cheque.

On the revenue side Ottawa pays a large portion of this - it is a shared cost programme - the minister told us we would get $33.5 million, we in fact got $37.3, hut since our expenditure went up much more the total amount that we had to find was a great deal more than was originally estimated. It was several million dollars more. We saw that reflected in supplementary supply. Now I could go through the health estimates and make the point, but I think I have said enough to establish the question I would ask, I would like for the ffinister to tell us,how accurate his estimates are?

And saying that they are the best that can be done now is a fair statement, but it does not quite go far enough. I would like him to indicate the areas