Province of Alberta The 27th Legislature Fourth Session Alberta Hansard Wednesday, March 23, 2011 Issue 18 The Honourable Kenneth R. Kowalski, Speaker

Legislative Assembly of Alberta The 27th Legislature Fourth Session Kowalski, Hon. Ken, Barrhead-Morinville-Westlock, Speaker Cao, Wayne C.N., Calgary-Fort, Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees Mitzel, Len, Cypress-Medicine Hat, Deputy Chair of Committees Ady, Hon. Cindy, Calgary-Shaw (PC) Allred, Ken, St. Albert (PC) Amery, Moe, Calgary-East (PC) Anderson, Rob, Airdrie-Chestermere (WA), WA Opposition House Leader Benito, Carl, Edmonton-Mill Woods (PC) Berger, Evan, Livingstone-Macleod (PC) Bhardwaj, Naresh, Edmonton-Ellerslie (PC) Bhullar, Manmeet Singh, Calgary-Montrose (PC) Blackett, Hon.

Lindsay, Calgary-North West (PC) Blakeman, Laurie, Edmonton-Centre (AL), Official Opposition House Leader Boutilier, Guy C., Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo (WA) Brown, Dr. Neil, QC, Calgary-Nose Hill (PC) Calahasen, Pearl, Lesser Slave Lake (PC) Campbell, Robin, West Yellowhead (PC), Government Whip Chase, Harry B., Calgary-Varsity (AL), Official Opposition Whip Dallas, Cal, Red Deer-South (PC) Danyluk, Hon. Ray, Lac La Biche-St. Paul (PC) DeLong, Alana, Calgary-Bow (PC) Denis, Hon.

Jonathan, QC, Calgary-Egmont (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Doerksen, Arno, Strathmore-Brooks (PC), Deputy Government Whip Drysdale, Wayne, Grande Prairie-Wapiti (PC) Elniski, Doug, Edmonton-Calder (PC) Evans, Hon. Iris, Sherwood Park (PC) Fawcett, Kyle, Calgary-North Hill (PC) Forsyth, Heather, Calgary-Fish Creek (WA), WA Opposition Whip Fritz, Hon. Yvonne, Calgary-Cross (PC) Goudreau, Hon. Hector G., Dunvegan-Central Peace (PC) Griffiths, Doug, Battle River-Wainwright (PC) Groeneveld, George, Highwood (PC) Hancock, Hon. Dave, QC, Edmonton-Whitemud (PC), Government House Leader Hayden, Hon.

Jack, Drumheller-Stettler (PC) Hehr, Kent, Calgary-Buffalo (AL) Hinman, Paul, Calgary-Glenmore (WA), WA Opposition Deputy Leader Horne, Fred, Edmonton-Rutherford (PC) Horner, Doug, Spruce Grove-Sturgeon-St. Albert (PC) Jablonski, Hon. Mary Anne, Red Deer-North (PC) Jacobs, Broyce, Cardston-Taber-Warner (PC) Johnson, Jeff, Athabasca-Redwater (PC) Johnston, Art, Calgary-Hays (PC) Kang, Darshan S., Calgary-McCall (AL) Klimchuk, Hon. Heather, Edmonton-Glenora (PC) Knight, Hon. Mel, Grande Prairie-Smoky (PC) Leskiw, Genia, Bonnyville-Cold Lake (PC) Liepert, Hon.

Ron, Calgary-West (PC) Lindsay, Fred, Stony Plain (PC) Lukaszuk, Hon. Thomas A., Edmonton-Castle Downs (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Lund, Ty, Rocky Mountain House (PC) MacDonald, Hugh, Edmonton-Gold Bar (AL) Marz, Richard, Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills (PC) Mason, Brian, Edmonton-Highlands-Norwood (ND), Leader of the ND Opposition McFarland, Barry, Little Bow (PC) McQueen, Diana, Drayton Valley-Calmar (PC) Morton, F.L., Foothills-Rocky View (PC) Notley, Rachel, Edmonton-Strathcona (ND), ND Opposition House Leader Oberle, Hon. Frank, Peace River (PC) Olson, Hon.

Verlyn, QC, Wetaskiwin-Camrose (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Ouellette, Hon. Luke, Innisfail-Sylvan Lake (PC) Pastoor, Bridget Brennan, Lethbridge-East (AL), Official Opposition Deputy Whip, Official Opposition Deputy Leader Prins, Ray, Lacombe-Ponoka (PC) Quest, Dave, Strathcona (PC) Redford, Alison M., QC, Calgary-Elbow (PC) Renner, Hon. Rob, Medicine Hat (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Rodney, Dave, Calgary-Lougheed (PC) Rogers, George, Leduc-Beaumont-Devon (PC) Sandhu, Peter, Edmonton-Manning (PC) Sarich, Janice, Edmonton-Decore (PC) Sherman, Dr. Raj, Edmonton-Meadowlark (Ind) Snelgrove, Hon.

Lloyd, Vermilion-Lloydminster (PC) Stelmach, Hon. Ed, Fort Saskatchewan-Vegreville (PC), Premier Swann, Dr. David, Calgary-Mountain View (AL), Leader of the Official Opposition Taft, Dr. Kevin, Edmonton-Riverview (AL) Tarchuk, Janis, Banff-Cochrane (PC) Taylor, Dave, Calgary-Currie (AB) VanderBurg, George, Whitecourt-Ste. Anne (PC) Vandermeer, Tony, Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview (PC) Weadick, Hon. Greg, Lethbridge-West (PC) Webber, Hon. Len, Calgary-Foothills (PC) Woo-Paw, Teresa, Calgary-Mackay (PC) Xiao, David H., Edmonton-McClung (PC) Zwozdesky, Hon.

Gene, Edmonton-Mill Creek (PC), Deputy Government House Leader Officers and Officials of the Legislative Assembly Clerk W.J. David McNeil Law Clerk/Director of Interparliamentary Relations Robert H. Reynolds, QC Senior Parliamentary Counsel/ Director of House Services Shannon Dean Manager – House Proceedings Micheline S. Gravel Parliamentary Counsel Stephanie LeBlanc Committee Research Co-ordinator Philip Massolin Sergeant-at-Arms Brian G. Hodgson Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms Chris Caughell Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms Gordon H.

Munk Managing Editor of Alberta Hansard Liz Sim Party standings: Progressive Conservative: 67 Alberta Liberal: 8 Wildrose Alliance: 4 New Democrat: 2 Alberta: 1 Independent: 1

Executive Council Ed Stelmach Premier, President of Executive Council, Chair of Agenda and Priorities Committee, Vice-chair of Treasury Board, Liaison to the Canadian Armed Forces Lloyd Snelgrove President of the Treasury Board, Minister of Finance and Enterprise Dave Hancock Minister of Education, Political Minister for Edmonton Iris Evans Minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations Mel Knight Minister of Sustainable Resource Development Luke Ouellette Minister of Transportation Rob Renner Minister of Environment Verlyn Olson Minister of Justice and Attorney General Yvonne Fritz Minister of Children and Youth Services, Political Minister for Calgary Jack Hayden Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, Political Minister for Rural Alberta Ray Danyluk Minister of Infrastructure Gene Zwozdesky Minister of Health and Wellness Ron Liepert Minister of Energy Mary Anne Jablonski Minister of Seniors and Community Supports Len Webber Minister of Aboriginal Relations Heather Klimchuk Minister of Service Alberta Lindsay Blackett Minister of Culture and Community Spirit Cindy Ady Minister of Tourism, Parks and Recreation Hector Goudreau Minister of Municipal Affairs Frank Oberle Solicitor General and Minister of Public Security Jonathan Denis Minister of Housing and Urban Affairs Thomas Lukaszuk Minister of Employment and Immigration Greg Weadick Minister of Advanced Education and Technology Parliamentary Assistants Evan Berger Sustainable Resource Development Manmeet Singh Bhullar Municipal Affairs Cal Dallas Finance and Enterprise Fred Horne Health and Wellness Broyce Jacobs Agriculture and Rural Development Jeff Johnson Treasury Board (Oil Sands Sustainable Development Secretariat) Diana McQueen Energy Janice Sarich Education Teresa Woo-Paw Employment and Immigration

STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Standing Committee on the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund Chair: Ms Tarchuk Deputy Chair: Mr. Elniski DeLong Forsyth Groeneveld Johnston MacDonald Quest Taft Standing Committee on Community Services Chair: Mr. Doerksen Deputy Chair: Mr. Hehr Allred Anderson Benito Bhullar Chase Johnston Notley Rodney Sarich Taylor Standing Committee on the Economy Chair: Mr. Bhardwaj Deputy Chair: Mr. Chase Amery Dallas Fawcett Hinman Johnson Lund Taft Tarchuk Taylor Woo-Paw Standing Committee on Health Chair: Mr.

McFarland Deputy Chair: Ms Pastoor Forsyth Griffiths Groeneveld Horne Lindsay Notley Quest Sherman Swann Vandermeer Standing Committee on Legislative Offices Chair: Mr. Mitzel Deputy Chair: Mr. Lund Bhullar Blakeman Campbell Hinman Lindsay MacDonald Marz Notley Quest Rogers Special Standing Committee on Members’ Services Chair: Mr. Kowalski Deputy Chair: Mr. Campbell Amery Anderson Bhullar Elniski Hehr Leskiw Mason Pastoor Rogers VanderBurg Standing Committee on Private Bills Chair: Dr.

Brown Deputy Chair: Ms Woo-Paw Allred Benito Boutilier Calahasen Dallas Doerksen Drysdale Hinman Horner Jacobs Kang Lindsay McQueen Morton Redford Sandhu Sarich Taft Xiao Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, Standing Orders and Printing Chair: Mr. Prins Deputy Chair: Mr. Hancock Amery Berger Calahasen DeLong Doerksen Forsyth Groeneveld Hinman Jacobs Leskiw Lindsay McFarland Mitzel Notley Pastoor Quest Sherman Tarchuk Taylor Standing Committee on Public Accounts Chair: Mr. MacDonald Deputy Chair: Mr.

Rodney Allred Anderson Benito Calahasen Chase Dallas Elniski Fawcett Griffiths Groeneveld Kang Mason Sandhu Vandermeer Xiao Standing Committee on Public Safety and Services Chair: Mr. Drysdale Deputy Chair: Mr. Kang Boutilier Brown Calahasen Cao Forsyth Johnson MacDonald Rogers Sandhu Xiao Standing Committee on Resources and Environment Chair: Mr. Prins Deputy Chair: Ms Blakeman Anderson Berger Boutilier Hehr Jacobs Marz Mason McQueen Mitzel VanderBurg Select Special Ombudsman Search Committee Chair: Mr. Mitzel Deputy Chair: Mr. Lund Blakeman Hinman Lindsay Marz Notley Quest Rogers

March 23, 2011 Alberta Hansard 505 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 1:30 p.m. 1:30 p.m. Wednesday, March 23, 2011 [The Speaker in the chair] head: Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Let us pray. We give thanks for the bounty of our province, our land, our resources, and our people. We pledge ourselves to act as good stewards on behalf of all Albertans. Amen. Please be seated. head: Introduction of Guests The Speaker: The hon. Member for St. Albert. Mr. Allred: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

It’s my pleasure to rise today and introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly 53 grade 6 students from l’école Father Jan school in St. Albert. These students are accompanied by their teachers, Julie Maisonneuve and Corinne Chan, and their parent helpers, Bruce Hoyt and Michelle Guest. I would ask them all to rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. Mr. Elniski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s my pleasure to rise today and introduce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly 26 students from one of my favourite schools in the Edmonton-Calder constituency, and that’s Kensington school, one that I can virtually see from my house. With us today, in addition to the 26 students, are teachers Ms Keri Haskell and Miss Rebecca Yu. Of course, no mention of this particular class would be com- plete without mentioning my buddy Aziz. I’d ask them all to now rise and receive the traditional warm greeting of the Assembly. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. Mr.

VanderBurg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a great privilege and an honour to introduce 80 guests that we have here today from Percy Baxter school. That’s three classrooms that have travelled 200 kilometres to visit us today. I’d ask them to please rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Technology. Mr. Weadick: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s indeed a plea s- ure for me to rise today and introduce to you and through you to all members of this Assembly nine members of CAUS, the Coun- cil of Alberta University Students.

I had the privilege to spend a little bit of time with the students last night and to hear some of their issues and concerns. This is a bright group of students and very strong advocates for education in our province. I’d like them to stand as I introduce them, and then we’ll give them the warm welcome. They are Hardave Birk, Keith McLaughlin, Nick D e- hod, Lauren Webber, Taz Kassam, Aden Murphy, Zack Moline, Andrew Williams, and, last but not least, Duncan Wojtaszek. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations. Mr. Webber: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that this is appr o- priate.

Although the hon. minister just introduced my daughter, I just want to introduce her once again. I feel like I have to. Not only is she the U of C Students’ Union president; she is beautiful, and she has also just been awarded the 2011 student with distinc- tion at the U of C along with her being the 2011 graduating class valedictorian. So I am quite proud of my daughter. head: Members’ Statements The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Montrose. Barlow Trail Underpass Mr. Bhullar: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Next month when Barlow Trail at 48th Avenue N.E. closes so that a new run- way and international terminal can be built at the airport, a whole new set of transportation issues will be faced by residents of northeast Calgary as well as all Calgarians. It is estimated that the cost of the proposed underpass will be $295 million. Of that figure, it is reported that Calgary will con- tribute $25 million, and the balance, $270 million, will come from other government sources. It a ppears, Mr. Speaker, that the bulk of that funding will come from this government through MSI funding.

This government is producing results for the residents of northeast Calgary. Airport passengers also help pay for the ru n- way and terminal improvements through a $22 airport improve - ment fee per passenger charged by the authority. The city of Calgary and the province are willing to do their part. It is the airport authority that needs to step up to the plate and make a significant contribution to this project, which benefits all Calgarians. Mr. Speaker, I understand that the airport authority and the city of Calgary have many differing opinions on issues such as compensa- tion for the land.

Media reports indicate that the airport authority wants $24.6 million for the land for the underpass. That is land that sits largely below the runway. That doesn’t make any sense to me. In addition, the authority wants to oblige the city to build inte r- changes and road improvements among many other matters. Mr. Speaker, I encourage the authority to consider the overall impact of the closure of Barlow Trail and the need for an unde r- pass for all Calgarians and, indeed, all Albertans.

As elected representatives we all try to do the right thing and move forward on initiatives th at are in the best public interest. I encourage the airport authority to do the same thing. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Health Services Financial Reporting Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In order for any government to retain the trust and confidence of citizens, it must keep accurate records of its spending. Each expense must be carefully accounted for so that taxpayers know their money is being used to benefit the public.

Many Albertans are wondering if the government used taxpayers’ money to silence doctors con- cerned by Progressive Conservative mismanagement of public health care. That’s why it’s more important than ever to ensure that public money isn’t being used for nefarious purposes. When hundreds of millions of dollars are hidden in mysterious and vague categories such as other expenses, taxpayers have a right to wonder exactly why the details of these expenses have been hidden. The books of the Ca pital health region, for example, show $300 million in undisclosed expenses over seven years.

I asked this government if any of that money was used to fund any of the settlements, lawsuits, or legal fees against doctors who spoke out about government mismanagement of health care. Natu- rally, these questions have been dodged.

506 Alberta Hansard March 23, 2011 Last year Alberta Health Services hid another $42 million under the “other fees” category. What was that money used for? The government won’t say. Why were severance payments and out-of- court settlements hidden somewhere in government books rather than identified according to good, transparent accounting pra c- tices? The government won’t say. Alberta taxpayers are proud of their public health care system. They want it to be there when they need it, and they want to be sure that they’re getting good value for every penny of tax money that funds the system.

I’m sure most Albertans would be outraged if they were to discover that any of the tax money was being used to silence doctors who were only trying to do their jobs. It’s time for this government to come clean and provide truly open and transparent accounting for each and every dollar of funding that goes through and towards public health care. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. Healthy Food Choices Mr. VanderBurg: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today thou- sands of Albertans will buy their meals from one of Alberta’s restaurants, bars, cafés, or delis. Just last week the hon.

Minister of Health and Wellness pointed out that the food service industry in Alberta is a $600 million a month business. Almost a quarter of Alberta’s youth are reported to be obese, Mr. Speaker. More than half of Alberta’s adults are overweight or obese. Albertans love to eat out, but how can we help families and health -conscious cit i- zens make healthy choices when eating out? The Heart and Stroke Foundation’s Health Check Alberta re s- taurant program is one answer to that problem, sir.

The program uses the familiar Health Check symbol that appears on thousands of food products on store shelves and puts it next to menu items in participating restaurants that have been determined as healthy choices. Registered dieticians decide which foods get the Health Check symbol based on criteria set out by the Canada food guide. In addition to the logo the amount of calories, saturated fat, trans fat, sodium, and fibre are listed for each approved menu item.

Already the Health Check symbol appears on menus of larger chain restaurants like Boston Pizza, Swiss Chalet, Pizza Hut, Sec- ond Cup, and the White Spot. 1:40 Mr. Speaker, I was happy to see two Alberta-based restaurants, SAGE Savouries and Husky House, join the program last Friday, and I hope that we see more restaurants join in the future. Ult i- mately, I hope that healthy meal options become something that Albertans ask for when they go to their favourite eatery. Putting the familiar Health Check symbol on menus across Alberta will go a long way in helping families make healthy choices when eating out.

It will contribute to the overall health of Albertans and will help the sustainability of our health system in the future. Thank you, sir. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Hays. Lorraine Farmer Mary Phillipo Mr. Johnston: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s a great pleasure and honour for me to rise today to recognize two ladies who were hospitalized recently and had nothing but positive comments about the treatment they received in our health care system. The first is a brave and courageous Albertan, Lorraine Farmer. Lorraine was diagnosed with breast cancer in April of 2006.

The treatment at the time resulted in an almost five -year cancer -free life. Unfortunately, the cancer returned as a walnut -sized tumour on the brain, and Lorraine was diagnosed and taken to hospital on March 4, 2011. She had surgery on March 6 and went home on March 9, 2011. Lorraine is a fighter, and she checked herself out of the hospital early and went home to convalesce. From her original diagnosis Lorraine complimented the professionalism and dedication of the doctors and nurses at High River and the Foot- hills hospital. Her entry and exit from the hospital was a very smooth transition.

Lorraine believes that a positive attitude co u- pled with the best heal th care treatment in Canada contribute to her ongoing recovery. She commented: we are blessed in Alberta to be living in a province that places such a high emphasis on quality health care for our citizens. The second one. I received an e- mail from, Mary P hillipo, a recent arrival from Nova Scotia. She says that I have nothing but positive words to say about the Alberta Healthcare system. A few months ago I had to

schedule a mammogram and ultrasound. To my surprise my appointment was scheduled for the very next week. Typically, a person could wait up to two to three months for this same procedure in Nova Scotia, which is where I’m from. I applaud the Alberta gover n- ment for addressing the medical needs of Albertans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Health Care System Strengths Mr. Benito: Mr.

Speaker, we hear that Albertans receive excep- tional care in our health care system across the province every day, and that’s because we have talented and dedicated health professionals who are committed to delivering the best possible care right here in Alberta. You know what, Mr. Speaker? Health professionals across Ca n- ada have recognized that Alberta is a great place to practise medicine. The proof is in the numbers. This province has had the highest percentage increase of physicians out of all the other prov- inces at 22.5 per cent from 2004 to 2008.

The government has also committed to funding 367 seats in the University of Alberta and University of Calgary faculties of med i- cine, a 62 per cent increase from 2005. Residency pos itions have also increased nearly 50 per cent in about the same time period, Mr. Speaker. It’s not just physicians we are investing in; it is many of the front-line health workers such as nurses. Alberta Health Services has committed to hiring at least 70 per cent of our nursing gradu- ates. About 1,000 more registered nurse graduates will have jobs when they are finished their programs. One of those graduates is my daughter, Mr.

Speaker. The three-year collective agreement that Alberta Health Services signed with the United Nurses of Alberta last year will ensure that our nurses remain among the best paid in the country so that we can keep them close to home. Mr. Speaker, we hear time and time again about the great care Albertans experience in our health care facilities. It is because these men and women love what they do . . . [Mr. Benito’s speak- ing time expired] The Speaker: Thank you. The hon. Member for Airdrie-Chestermere. Integrated Ambulance Services in Airdrie Mr. Anderson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Last year Airdrie had one of the most effective and efficient integrated ambulance and

March 23, 2011 Alberta Hansard 507 fire services in the country. It was a prized, life-saving jewel of our city. And then came the Alberta superboard. When determined by this government that AHS would manage provincial ambulance services, I was promised by the current Minister of Energy that this would not mean Airdrie would lose its integrated service. In fact, he said Airdrie would benefit from the province picking up the cost. Well, it turned out that wasn’t true.

AHS, led by a reprehensible bureaucrat named Darren Sandbeck, would not enter into a con- tract with Airdrie unless it complied with a litany of expensive upgrades that made keeping the service financially impossible. As a member of the government I begged the now Energy minister to intervene. He responded by paying a former PC cabinet buddy to unsuccessfully mediate the dispute. After leaving the PCs, I pleaded with the current health minister to intervene, as did the mayor, over and over again. We even had him down to city council to personally brief him on the situation. Nothing changed.

After endless head-nodding, we were assured it would be dealt with. Nothing was done. So we lost our integrated service, and in came the white knights at AHS to run our ambul- ances. Last night I received a call informing me that AHS is now r e- porting a 33 per cent increase in Airdrie response times since the takeover. This means that someone suffering a heart attack will wait almost three minutes longer for life-saving treatment than they did prior to the takeover, increasing the risk of premature death.

The centralized superboard experiment has been a complete failure, and I have no doubt that this government will receive this verdict from voters at the next election. But let me assure those involved with this Airdrie ambulance debacle that if we lose one person in my community to premature death because of this in- competence, I will personally ensure that those responsible are held accountable to the full extent of the law. On behalf of my constituents I demand that the health minister order AHS to get those ambulance response times back to where they were prior to his superboard’s incompetent takeover.

Failure to do so will have very serious consequences. Speaker’s Ruling Referring to Nonmembers The Speaker: Hon. members, the chair does not intervene in members’ statements, but, hon. Member for Airdrie-Chestermere, did I hear you name a person who is from outside of this House and use an adjective, I guess, in this case: reprehensible? Mr. Anderson: Absolutely, sir. And I stand by that comment. The Speaker: Fine. I just want to caution all members that it vio- lates the rules of the House when we refer to people who cannot defend themselves in this House.

The hon. member might choose to wish to deal with this issue outside of the House rather than inside of the House. [interjections] Okay. [interjections] Airdrie-Chestermere, would you just cool it, please? If you want to violate the rules in a member’s statem ent – I provided my statement in here, have dealt with it in here. You can deal with it outside of the House now on your own. We’re going to continue with the Routine. head: Introduction of Bills The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. Bill Pr. 2 Galt Scholarship Fund Transfer Act Ms Pastoor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my pleasure to be able to rise and have leave to introduce Bill Pr. 2, the Galt Scholarship Fund Transfer Act. The Galt School of Nursing Alumnae Society of Alberta has presented a petition requesting that the terms of the trust be modi- fied and that the trust fund be transferred to the University of Lethbridge and that the Galt scholarship fund be continued under this act. Mr. Speaker, this is some nurses from the Galt school of nursing who over a number of years have been putting money aside for scholarships.

The scholarships now going to that particular group have been decreasing, and they in their generosity are going to turn over a substantial amount of money to the U niversity of Lethbridge for nursing scholarships. Thank you. [Motion carried; Bill Pr. 2 read a first time] head: Oral Question Period The Speaker: First Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Patient Advocacy by Health Professionals Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In 2000 Capital health r e- gion recruited top thoracic surgeon Dr. Tim Winton from the University of Toronto. Dr.

Winton took over as director of tho- racic surgery after Dr. Ciaran McNamee was pushed out of his job for speaking out for more patient resources. In turn, Dr. Winton is no longer the director of thoracic surgery and is now listed as a university course co -ordinator. To the Premier: can the Premier advise if Dr. Winton was pushed out of his position as head of thoracic surgery in circumstances similar to Dr. McNamee? 1:50 Mr. Stelmach: Mr.

Speaker, if any physician, including those that were named by the member across, feels that in some way they have been hampered in what they brought forward to the board or bullied in some way and weren’t able to carry out their duties, feel free, if they feel that way, to bring the evidence before the Health Quality Council. Dr. Swann: Mr. Speaker, will the Premier take the necessary steps to grant immunity to Dr. Winton so that he can explain his position without fear of retribution? Mr.

Stelmach: One thing we know for sure is that anybody who appears before the Health Quality Council will have the protection of the Alberta Evidence Act, and anything that they bring forward to the Health Quality Council will be kept in strict confidence. Dr. Swann: To the Premier: we’ll never know the truth about why Dr. Winton left his position without an independent judicial i n- quiry, so will the Premier finally concede that it’s time to call an independent judge-led public inquiry? Mr.

Stelmach: As I’ve said countless times, the Health Quality Council is prepared to hear from all physicians and even nurses and anybody in our health care system that feels in some way that they’ve been bullied. They can bring that to the Health Quality Council. It’ll be held confidential. No one else will know in terms

508 Alberta Hansard March 23, 2011 of what evidence they have brought to the Health Quality Council, and that is the best place for that. The Speaker: Second Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Wait Times for Cancer Care Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A recent medical journal

article from The Lancet reports that the five -year survival rate for lung cancer in Alberta is only 15.1 per cent, the lowest of all prov- inces in the country. In response to the study a prominent thoracic surgeon from Harvard said, and I quote: this is irrefutable ev i- dence by an impartial third party that Albertans suffer with cancer care. End quote. To the Premier: how can the Premier deny the connection between the country’s worst lung cancer survival rates and the dismissal of these two prominent lung surgeons in Edmon- ton? Mr.

Stelmach: If the hon. member believes that that is the reason, then those two physicians that he named should appear before the Health Quality Council, and if it is true, what he said, then they should do it immediately. Dr. Swann: Well, would the Premier agree with the assessment of Dr. Ciaran McNamee that the third -party review here shows i r- refutable evidence that Albertans suffer with inadequate cancer care? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, as we’ve heard in this House, many Albertans have had excellent cancer care. There are others, in terms of waiting times, that I know we’ve heard can be improved.

That’s the purpose of the Health Quality Council, to see how we can further decrease waiting times in emergency rooms, improve cancer care in the province. We’ve come a long way, but there is always room for more improvement. Dr. Swann: Given that the Premier has asked for evidence of unnecessary deaths and we are presenting it, will he finally a c- knowledge that there is enough evidence supporting the allegations fr om the Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark to call for a full judicial inquiry? Mr. Stelmach: Mr.

Speaker, once again, as I said, these phys i- cians that were named can go immediately to the Health Quality Council and present their evidence. That is the council that will hear the evidence and will make recommendations to the gover n- ment. That report will be public. The first report will be released in three months, then in six months, and the full final report will be done in nine months. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Patient Advocacy by Health Professionals (continued) Dr. Swann: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

These Tories talk a great deal about, quote, helping doctors advocate for their patients and turning the page. End quote. While it’s nice to see their tacit a d- mission that there was a culture of fear and intimidation in the past, there has actually been no improvement to the process by which doctors can speak up. As seen in the Alberta Health Ser- vices safe disclosure policy, every route for raising concerns ends up in the hands of their ethics and compliance officer.

To the Pr e- mier: does the Premier see any problem with Alberta Health Services’ reporting measures being entirely internal, with no out- side oversight? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I’m glad this member mentioned this because yesterday he gave out such an inaccuracy so as to almost mislead people here. The compliance officer who looks after these kinds of issues was an employee of the health system up until 1997, and then she left until 2008, so she was not there in the way this member suggested. But they do have a compliance and ethics officer who is doing a very good job looking into these matters.

Any matters that come up that belong over at the Health Quality Council review will find their way over there Dr. Swann: Given that Dr. Maybaum was told that, quote, there were people high up in government who wanted his head on a platter, end quote, how would the ethics and compliance officer and the Alberta Health Services Board be able to do anything about intimidation directly from the government? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, we’ve made it very clear that we’re encouraging doctors to speak out in this way, and I’m glad they’re taking that opportu nity.

Now we’re encouraging them to also take those issues to the independent review. I might add: an independent review that just named five very prominent people to its health advisory council, including the former Deputy Prime Minister of Canada, including two highly respected doctors, i n- cluding a cancer specialist from Calgary, and including a former Chief Justice of this province. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Swann: Yes. Thank you. We’re not talking about who’s on the committee; we’re talking about what their mandate is.

Given that Alberta Health Services’ internal reporting has no external oversight, given that the Health Quality Council review is behind closed doors, will the Premier now allow a public inquiry to uncover the truth about intimidation of health professionals? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, once again, I want to make sure that any physicians that feel that they were intimidated in some way with fear of reprisal, whether it happened 15 years ago or it ha p- pened five days ago, take it to the Health Quality Council. The Speaker: Hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre do you want to lead a chorus? You keep singing a word.

The hon. Member for Calgary -Glenmore, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands-Norwood. Critical Electricity Transmission Infrastructure Mr. Hinman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For the last month we’ve been focused on what is likely the biggest ethical scandal in this province’s history, the intimidation of health care professionals. But as this government ducks and denies while this issue burns, it’s full steam ahead on what’s surely the biggest financial scandal in Alberta’s history, Bill 50 and the $16 billion overbuild of our electrical system.

To the Premier: given that this will surely ta r- nish your legacy, will you do the honourable thing and call for an independent needs assessment before sticking Albertans with a tab that will take them decades to pay? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, there was an independent review. The review began back in 2001. Over 300 meetings were hel d. Many Albertans presented evidence in terms of the need for transmission into the province of Alberta. We haven’t seen any improvement for the last 30 years. In that 30 years our population

March 23, 2011 Alberta Hansard 509 has doubled. As a result, the system is strained, and we have to improve the transmission system. Mr. Hinman: Mr. Speaker, it’s 2011, not 2001. Things have changed. Given that the government nullified the real purpose of the AUC when they passed Bill 50 in order to eliminate the most i m- portant step, a needs assessment , will the Premier do the honourable thing and repeal Bill 50 and let the AUC decide just what size of power lines we actually need before it’s too late? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, there is an authority that listened to Albertans and determined need.

In fa ct, even during the recession they were out .1 per cent in their projections. We’re seeing energy consumption, electricity, grow by 3 per cent a year. The first build-out will be about $4 billion, depending on what the tenders will be. Roughly speaking, th at’s $1 for every $1 billion invested in the infrastructure. Mr. Hinman: Completely out of touch and misunderstanding the situation.

Given that multiple studies and business groups like IPCCAA are telling you that monstrous overbuild will drive up electrical prices so much that Alberta will lose businesses and jobs and that voters are outraged about having to pay jacked up power prices for decades, why are you so stubbornly clinging to this untendered backroom deal? It’s just wrong, Premier. It’s wrong. Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, here are the facts. In British Colu m- bia B.C. Hydro is looking at increasing their electricity rates 30 per cent over the next three years and 52 per cent by 2015.

That group over there is advocating us building more natural gas e lec- tricity generation. Sounds great at $4 gas. But I can tell you that $4 gas and today’s coal -priced electricity are about the same. As gas increases to $6, I wonder if they’re going to stand up and de- fend Albertans for . . . The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands- Norwood. 2:00 Health Care System Mr. Mason: Thanks very much. Mr. Speaker, the health minister wishes the opposition would forget about the past and just look to the future.

But, you know, those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are condemned to repeat the mistakes again and again. This could be this government’s motto. I want to ask the Premier: will he admit the PC government’s responsibility for the health care mess we find ourselves in, including the culture of intimidation, and if not, tell us who is responsible? Is it doctors? Is it . . . The Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, once again, if there is any fear, if any physician feels that there has been some intimidation, then the door is open to appear before the Health Quality Council.

Today we heard very em inent members from Alberta appointed as adv i- sory members, a lot of experience in the law. It’s not very often you have a former Deputy Prime Minister appointed to a commi t- tee or the former Chief Justice of Alberta appointed to a committee. That is simply outstanding. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Well, given that there’s a whole string of former health ministers still sitting over there on that side plus Gary Mar, who’s seeking the PC leadership, who collectively bear responsibility for the culture of intimidation that we’re now seeing, will the Premier please say whether or not this government accepts responsibility for the mess that the health care system is now in? If not, who is it? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, as we heard in the House from many of our members, our system is not in a mess. It is better funded than others in the province.

We’ve attracted more doctors to this province than any province in Canada. We remain committed to train 2,000 more nurses by 2012, and we will meet that goal plus over 300 new physician positions in the province of Alberta. Compared to other provinces, we’ve taken a leadership role, and we’re committed to meeting those goals. Mr. Mason: Mr.

Speaker, given that all of the indicatio ns are that the health care system is actually getting worse – waiting times are getting worse in a number of areas – and given the collective r e- sponsibility of this government for the culture of intimidation that we’ve seen, will he ask the former ministers of health, including Gary Mar, the leadership candidate, to appear before the Health Quality Council and give their account of what went wrong? Mr. Stelmach: I guess he missed some of the latest interviews out there.

Anybody that was asked by the media in terms of former ministers, anybody in government said: sure; if the Health Quality Council calls us, we’ll be glad to give any sort of evidence that they wish. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Health Quality Council Review Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’ve been going over the terms of reference for the Health Quality Council’s re- view. You know, maybe it’s just because I can’t get last week’s charge that the council has engaged in junk science out of my mind, but I’m finding discrepancies.

For instance, there’s a prom- ise to look into the possibility that the safety and quality of care of 250 cancer patients was seriously compromised by a delay in sur- gery “as alleged in a document tabled in the Alberta Legislature on February 28, 2011.” Assembly documents and records show no such tabling. The Speaker: Okay. We need a question. Mr. Taylor: To the Premier. Given the Health Quality Council’s terms of reference refer to a nonexistent document, how can a skeptical public . . . The Speaker: If you want to respond, hon. Premier. Mr.

Stelmach: I’m not quite sure what the hon. member is dri v- ing at, but as I said before, the Health Quality Council will listen to anyone who comes forward with evidence and ideas and maybe gives some hi story in terms of how we did operate in the past, how we can improve in the future in terms of new funding, getting better value for their dollars. All of that is on the table. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the Premier: given that the council’s terms of reference limit the review to the years 2003 to 2006, when the period in question begins with Dr.

McNamee’s patients in 1999, how is the Health Quality Council going to adequately investigate these allegations in any depth?

510 Alberta Hansard March 23, 2011 Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, the items referred to were those that had been tabled in this Assembly, and the tablings covered two essential areas. One of them was the impact of wait times on emergency care, and the other, which I think was a single doc u- ment, was wait times with respect to cancer care. So based on what was tabled, that’s part of what I assume governed the terms of reference that were developed independently by the HQCA. Mr. Taylor: Well, Mr. Speaker, those documents certainly weren’t tabled on the 28th of February 2011.

Again to the Premier: given that the Health Quality Council is unable to even determine where it needs to look, will the Premier commission an independent, fully independent, judge-led inquiry into these allegations? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, as I said before, the Health Quality Council has very rigorous and robust terms of reference, and they can go back as far as they want. They can listen to any evidence that they want. They can call anybody to deliver the evidence. As I said, if some of these issues go back 15 years, come forward. If you’ve got some issue five days ago, come forward. They’re there to listen.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder , followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Occupational Health and Safety Mr. Elniski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Flint Energy Services has announced recently that they’re looking for about an additional thousand people for their mod yard, so it looks like we’re once again on the verge of the economy heating up. Considerable ec o- nomic growth means more jobs, more work, and more money in the jeans of Albertans, which, obviously, is pretty good news. My questions are to the Minister of Employment and Immigration.

What are you doing to ensure that the rate and volume of work increases and the workplace safety remains uncompromised? Mr. Lukaszuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, the importance of occup a- tional health and safety and keeping our job sites does not fluctuate with economic activity. Our workers, our employers, and the government of Alberta are fully committed to making sure that no matter how busy or how slow our economy may happen to be, we will enforce safe workplaces in this province. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Elniski: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Given that we rec- ognize that it is in fact a shared responsibility, what specifically is occupational health and safety doing to prepare for the increased activity? Mr. Lukaszuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, as many Albertans may know, over the last year or so we have developed a 15 -point plan on enforcing oc cupational health and safety, somewhat shifting the balance from education to enforcement. We have hired some 52 per cent more officers over this and the next fiscal budget, so def i- nitely there has been a great deal of attention both on policy and on enforcement of occupational health and safety.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Elniski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My final question. As much as I endorse the emphasis on northern Alberta, it’s undeni- able that the cost of living in Fort McMurray is extremely hig h, so specifically, Minister, what’s being done to help the OH and S officers that are living there? Mr. Lukaszuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, as we realize, a great percen t- age of this economic boom that’s definitely on the horizon will happen in northern Alberta. We have now divided enforcement of occupational health and safety into three zones, the Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo area being one of them.

We have also dedicated officers to that particular region. Not only will they become more acquainted with the industry, but they will develop better relationships with workers and employers, so their efficacy in enforcing occupational health and safety will be much i m- proved. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Mackay. Calgary Board of Education Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday we learned that the Calgary board of education is facing a $61.7 million budget shortfall and is looking to cut 172 support staff in addition to over a hundred more teachers. The Learning Commission’s reduced class size initiative has become a rapidly fading memory. To the Premier: why did the province create tax room for municipalities by lowering the education property tax rate but won’t return to school boards the autonomy to collect and locally determine how best to use their educational portion of the property tax? Mr. Hancock: Mr.

Speaker, what the province did with respect to the education property tax is what we promised to do 10 years ago and have been doing consistently ever since. We’ve maintained the assessment for education property tax, increasing it by the amount of real growth in assessment but not increasing it by the amount of inflationary growth. So we’ve increased it annually from the amount that it was frozen at 10 years ago. We are captu r- ing that across the province. As it applies to assessment bases in each individual municipality, it provides for some differences. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. To the Minister of Educ a- tion: will the minister cover the Calgary board of education’s budget shortfall this year given that the province helped to close a similar funding gap last year? 2:10 Mr. Hancock: Mr. Speaker, the difference between this year and last year is that last year I informed boards at the time of the budget they could expect the government to fulfill the commi t- ment to the 2.92 per cent increase because it hadn’t been known at the time of the budget that that was the amount, and we actually did that.

The fact the boards went through a budgeting process, ignoring that advice, was not in accordance with the advice that I had given them. This year we put the 4.4 per cent increase to o p- erating grants into the budget, but in fact there was not enough increase in the budget to cover all the issues that needed to be covered; therefore, I had to cut back on certain targeted grants. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Chase: Thank you. Support staff, A ISI, special needs: all gone.

Given that the process of constantly underfunding school boards and then inconsistently bailing them out is counterproduc- tive, hugely disruptive, and creates ongoing uncertainty for students, parents, and teachers alike, is yo ur real plan this year to force all school boards to drain what, if anything, remains of their surpluses?

March 23, 2011 Alberta Hansard 511 Mr. Hancock: No, Mr. Speaker, that’s not the plan. But it wouldn’t be a bad idea for school boards first to look at their a c- cumulated operating surpluses. After all, that is money that was granted to school boards to fund today’s education with today’s dollars. I know the school boards have saved money for various purposes, but when they have money in an operating surplus a c- count, and when we have a tough fiscal budget like we have this year, it is a very good year to look at your operating surpluses before you look at cutting staff. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Calgary -MacKay, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Special-needs Education Funding Ms Woo-Paw: Mr. Speaker, on June 11 last year the ministers of Education, Health and Wellness, and Children and Youth Services announced the Setting the Direction Framework: Government of Alberta Response. I was able to attend that event.

Since I have heard from principals, teachers, parents, and community members that support and services are difficult to access, that schools have limited capacity to provide appropriate programming, and children and youth with some of the most challenging issues are compro- mised, my questions are to the ministers of Education and Children and Youth Services. To the Minister of Education: what progress is your ministry making in implementing . . . The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Hancock: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Progress has been slow, but it’s very important that it be done thoroughly because we’re talking about a real culture shift in the way that we do this. First and foremost, we’ve worked internally within government, bringing together primarily the th ree departments of Health, Chi l- dren and Youth Services, and Education but also other departments involved, to make sure that we align our approach within government. Secondly, we’ve now set up the inclusive education provincial advisory committee, that was part of the process.

That will bring stakeholder groups together to provide oversight and advice on the implementation. Ms Woo-Paw: To the Minister of Children and Youth Services. People in the system are telling me that one of the barriers to i m- proving support for these children is around the lack of communication from Children’s Services. Has the ministry identi- fied this as a barrier? If so, what is the plan and current status for addressing the issue? Mrs. Fritz: Well, Mr.

Speaker, as a result of the su ccess in school initiative for our children and youth in care, we have developed a new protocol, and that protocol ensures, as the minister had indi- cated earlier, that our educators, our caregivers, our caseworkers work together on behalf of our children and youth in need. The good news that we have about this and what’s important that you know is that our children and youth are directly involved in deve l- oping their educational plans and that ensures their voices are heard. The Speaker: The hon. member, please. Ms Woo-Paw: Thank you.

Back to the Minister of Education: what is your ministry doing to broaden community engagement and inform Albertans about its work so that we can engage sectors to work together to meet these children’s needs? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Hancock: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. That’s a very i m- portant question. I wanted to add to my earlier answer that while we’re putting in place the oversight and the co- ordination, the project team is actually engaging in a number o f pilot projects with divisions across the province and implementing on the ground.

That’s part of the story, to share that work with others across the province, to let people know what projects are on, to have them go to the website and see what’s going on with it, and to send out communications to the people who are involved, the 7,000 Albertans that were involved in the consultation in the first place, to let them know that progress is happening. Health Services Financial Reporting Mr. MacDonald: Over a seven -year period between 2003 and 2009 Capital health listed under other expenses in their annual reports over $300 million.

I asked questions to the minister of health on this two weeks ago, and I’m disappointed, Mr. Speaker. I have yet to receive an answer. My first question is to the minister of health. What efforts has the minister made in the last two weeks to provide a detailed list of all those expenditures that went out under other expenses? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, the first effort I ma de was to a p- peal to this member to put this question to the proper process, which he knows very well.

There is a thing called Motions for Returns, and there is a thing where he knows very well that he’s allowed to put a question forward through his own group, that he chairs. Mr. MacDonald: Point of order. Mr. Zwozdesky: But the point here is that the Auditor General has indicated that the predecessor organizations to AHS had their own individualized accounting systems. That resulted in some classifications of their own unique findings. That’s the answer. Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, yes, I did raise a point of order.

Again to the same minister: why did the government allow Capital health to hide $300 million in expenses when other r e- gions were required and did on a voluntary basis list all their expenses? What is this government hiding? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I hope the hon. member will read what he just said because I’m sure he didn’t mean it. Nobody has hidden anything. The fact is that the Auditor Ge n- eral has audited all of these findings.

Let me just quote to you what the Auditor General said in the October 2010 report that he issued: “The predecessor organizations had different policies and processes for their financial operations. AHS staff identif ied some of these areas, such as capital assets and financial instruments, and made conforming changes.” There you have it. Mr. MacDonald: Again, Mr. Speaker, to the same minister: will the minister list for the interest of taxpayers the complete details of the $300 million that Capital health spent between 2003 and 2009 and conveniently hid in the Other column of their annual report? List it. Mr.

Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, again I say that that is a very offen- sive allegation. Nobody hid anything. The monies are all there. They were properly accounted for. The Auditor General himself signed off on it. If there are more details, he’s got Written Questions and Motions for Returns, and he also has the Public Accounts Committee through which he can ask those detailed questions.

512 Alberta Hansard March 23, 2011 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Bonnyville -Cold Lake , fo l- lowed by the hon. Member for Fort McMurray-Wood Buffalo. Aids to Daily Living Program Mrs. Leskiw: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know that our gover n- ment has a number of programs that provide support to Albertans with disabilities and to seniors. My constituents are asking me about the assistance the government provides for other necessities. My questions are to the Minister of Seniors and Community Sup- ports. It appears that the budget for the AADL program has increased.

Does this increase translate to more support for the average Albertan? Mrs. Jablonski: Mr. Speaker, the AADL program helps approx i- mately 85,000 Albertans to obtain health-related supports such as hearing aids, medical and surgical supports, wheelchairs and m o- bility aids, and respiratory equipment. The budget is $124 million. It’s an increase of $5 million over last year, and most of this money goes to the caseload growth that we will see in AADL.

These health-related benefits assist people who have a long -term disability, a terminal illness, or a chronic illness to receive the supports that they need to maintain their independence. Mrs. Leskiw: To the same minister. My senior constituents want to stay in their homes longer. Is there anything in her department budget this year that supports this? Mrs. Jablonski: Mr. Speaker, our ministry’s budget this year included increases to maintain programs and services that help seniors in their home.

Programs like the Alberta seniors’ b enefit, the education property tax assistance program, and special -needs assistance for seniors help them to remain as independent as pos- sible. Funding for these and other seniors’ programs has increased this year in my budget by $15 million. Mrs. Leskiw: My final question to the same minister: does her department’s 2011 budget provide any additional benefits for den- tal and optical needs for my seniors? Mrs. Jablonski: Mr. Speaker, the total budget for Seniors and Community Supports is $425 million.

That does include an i n- crease to the seniors’ optical and dental program to assist those that are coming into the program. As you know, there are 2,000 more seniors in Alberta each month, but more than 209,000 low - and moderate -income seniors are eligible for this assistance for dental supports and for prescription eyeglasses. I’m proud to say that Alberta is one of the very few provinces that has this sort of program for our seniors. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Fort McMurray -Wood Buffalo, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-McCall. Minister of Health and Wellness Mr.

Boutilier: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, on this beauti- ful spring day. When asked if he would resign from cabinet and announce a bid for the PC leadership, the health minister said that there was too much going on his portfolio to announce. Indeed, there’s lots going on in health care. So far, though, the health min- ister has utterly failed to do anything about any of these issues. He won’t dismantle the failed superboard, he won’t discipl ine health officials for threatening doctors and nurses, and he won’t call a public inquiry. To the minister of health . . . The Speaker: The hon. minister. 2:20 Mr.

Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I think the record will show very clearly that I as minister of health with the support of the Premier and all of these colleagues have done a great deal to improve health outcomes in this province. I think the record will also show that we have demonstrated that in a number of ways: for example, the first province ever – ever – to have a five- year funding com- mitment; the first province ever to have a five- year health action plan; the first province ever to have a suite of 50 performance measures to help hold the system accountable. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr.

Boutilier: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Given that nonresponse – and there is a difference. Given the fact the minister of health said, “I’m going to take a walk in the snow,” there’s a difference b e- tween taking a walk in the snow and a head in the snow. To the minister: will he resign and get on with what he’s really doing today in seeking the leadership? Mr. Zwozdesky: Oh boy. I can see where this would-be leader is going with his own party. That’s very, very clear. I think your own leader is probably a little bit nervo us about your aspirations, hon. member, not to be outdone by Airdrie-Chestermere, of course.

I think I’ll just leave it there for now, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Boutilier: Mr. Speaker, given the nonresponse and given the fact the minister clearly has his eye on oth er things than health care, will he do the right thing for the benefit of all Albertans and officially resign his post so he can officially run for the PC leade r- ship, like others are doing, and not collect the cabinet salary? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, I’ve indicated very clearly that I am focused and riveted on health care. We have a great health care system. My job is to make it better, and I’m getting good help doing that. Thank you.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-McCall, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Penhorwood Apartment Evacuations Mr. Kang: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Shoddy construction pra c- tices have consequences. The residents of Fort McMurray’s Penhorwood condos were not only forced out of their homes in the middle of the night and given 15 minutes to collect their belong- ings, but many are now homeless. To the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Homeless evacuees are now relying on Children’s Ser- vices for support.

Would the minister agree that having some building regulations beats providing emergency housing? Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, we are in constant touch with the municipality of Fort McMurray. I want to indicate that they’ve established a task force, and they are dealing with individuals there. Those individuals that have had some issues in terms of finding additional accommodations or financial support, if they require help, are being helped through the offices of the Ministry of Employment and Immigration. So they are being looked after. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Kang: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The help is not coming fast enough. To the minister again. Forty per cent of those Penhorwood res i- dents bought these condos confident that this province has

March 23, 2011 Alberta Hansard 513 standards and that the standards are enforced. What would the minister advise these owners about losing their homes and their savings? Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, we recognize that there are 52 condo unit owners. Those individuals are being given similar a s- sistance as renters. There is a legal action that has commenced , and this is in the courts. I would suspect that the courts will make those decisions as to who might be liable in this case for addi- tional support. Mr. Kang: You know, that’s very good help, Mr. Speaker.

Condo owners suffer while they go through a legal process. To the minister again. Municipal Affairs is responsible not only for building standards but also for emergency management. So how is the minister assisting the municipality in helping the vic- tims in this emergency? Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, the Safety Codes Council is respo n- sible for accrediting municipalities, corporations, and agencies that sell permits and carry out work under those particular permits. The municipality is at liberty to choose those individuals that will do the inspections on their behalf.

They indicate to me that they’ve got a better reach and they can do more inspections. They’re closer to development issues, and they are closer to resi- dents. So the municipalities themselves are managing the inspection process. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Protection against Discrimination Mr. Bhardwaj: Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker. This go v- ernment prides itself on promoting equality, fairness, and an atmosphere where people of all backgrounds feel welcome, safe, and respected.

Unfortunately, not every visible minority in our province experiences such an environment. My que stions are to the Minister of Culture and Community Spirit. What measures does your ministry have in place to ensure that the rights of minor- ity are protected and will continue to be fully protected? The Speaker: Minister, your estimates are up in about 35 minutes from now, so stay away from budgetary answers. Just deal with policy, please. Mr. Blackett: Mr. Speaker, we have the Alberta human rights act, that protects minorities against discrimination for employment, for accommodation, for government services.

We have the human rights, citizenship and multiculturalism fund that funds organiz a- tions who help educate organizations and different community groups as well as employers on their rights and their rights to one another. Mr. Speaker, this is something the government can’t do by itself. We need partnerships like CMARD , the Coalition of Municipalities against Racism and Discrimination. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Bhardwaj: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My next question to the same minister: in w hat ways do programs specif i- cally educate youth on the harmful effects of racism and discrimination? Mr.

Blackett: Well, Mr. Speaker, a program was developed by the Alberta Somali Community Centre and supported by our de- partment, the Alberta Culture and Community Spirit’s human rights branch. This involves 10 to 15 individuals from the Somali community receiving training and leadership development and monitoring skills that support community involvement, civic pa r- ticipation, and academic excellence. In essence, they’re being taught to be leaders. They’re going to go back into their comm u- nity and help those other individuals become better participating citizens and feel more inclusive in their communities.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Bhardwaj: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My final question to the same minister: what concrete measures has your ministry taken at reducing discrimination and encouraging a di- verse and inclusive society? Mr. Blackett: Well, it’s always hard to quantify that, but I know from the performance measures that we looked at a year ago, 89 per cent of the people of Alberta say that they feel that they are protected against discrimination. That’s something that we all have to work on, Mr. Speaker. That’s something we all have to be vigilant on, not just government.

Those are individual Albertans, those are the private sector, those are our organizations that we support, and all of us in this House. We have to be vigilant on that. Speaker’s Ruling Anticipation The Speaker: Hon. members, one of our traditions is that we don’t really ask questions of a minister if his department estimates are coming up that particular day, and in this case they are. That was very close to the edge. I feel rather uncomfortable about that, so I will intervene in the future. The hon. Member for Edmonton -Centre, followed by the hon. Member for St. Albert.

Provincial Environmental Monitoring Panel Ms Blakeman: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. The Enviro n- ment minister insists that the appointment to the water panel of a self-described best friend of the Prime Minister was based on e x- pertise, not political connections, but it is difficult to find confirmation that this individual had specific expertise on water beyond his

part in helping to create the Canada School of Energy and Environment and his subsequent appointment as head of that school. To the minister: can the minister point to any actual wor k- ing expertise in water matters of this person? Mr. Renner: Mr. Speaker, the representatives that are o n that panel bring a number of different skills and assets to the panel. We have scientific expertise; we have people that have a business background that have been involved with the business side.

In this particular case, as I’ve indicated, in his capacity as executive d i- rector of the Canada School of Energy and Environment, Mr. Carson brings to the committee his knowledge and expertise with working . . . The Speaker: The hon. member, please. Ms Blakeman: He has no direct water experience. Back to the same minister. If there was a background search done prior to this person’s appointment to the water panel, then how is the minister unaware of both a criminal record for fraud and a professional disbarment? Mr. Renner: Mr.

Speaker, let me once again remind t his member that the purpose of this panel is not water. This is to be bringing

514 Alberta Hansard March 23, 2011 forward a world-class monitoring system that will bring all media together: water, air, land, and biodiversity. Each member of the panel is expected to bring various forms of expertise to bring all of this together. 2:30 Ms Blakeman: Back to the same minister: why hasn’t this go v- ernment proclaimed the Alberta Public Agencies Governance Act as this act would likely have excluded this same panel member from ever being appointed in the first place? He has no expertise in these areas. Mr. Renner: Mr. Speaker, I beg to differ.

I believe that the people that are on this panel were brought into the panel for different expertise in different areas. Some have a scientific background, some have a business background, and some have a background in being able to liaise and bring forward complementary research in other areas. So I disagree with the premise that the member brings forward. The Speaker: The hon. Member for St. Albert, followed by the hon. Member for Lethbridge-East. Grants and Bursaries for Postsecondary Education Mr. Allred: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

With the cap on tuition fee increases at Alberta’s postsecondary educational institutions several institutions are ge tting around the cap by i m- posing noninstructional fees for such ridiculous things as snow removal and registration services. To the minister of advanced education: what plans do you have to limit the imposition of non- instructional fees by postsecondary educational institutions? The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Technology. Mr. Weadick: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I’d like to thank this member and others in the House for meeting with members of CAUS this week and hearing some of thei r concerns. This is one of the concerns that the students have brought forward, maybe their most important concern, that some schools are looking at opportunities to go around the tuition fee cap by imposing other fees. We believe that this is a very serio us issue. We’re going to continue to work with the students and look for a solution to this. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Allred: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the same minister: given that student debt has increased dramatically in the past few years, how are students expected to manage their growing debt? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The good news is that student debt last year for graduating students averaged about $16,000 per student for government debt. This can be an amount that’s difficult to manage, but we do have programs in place for remittance. Loans are offered at prime rate of i nterest for students. There’s a six-month period after they graduate before they have to start paying.

For students that are in really difficult positions, we have a RAP program, which allows them to negotiate a better payment

schedule to allow them to be successful. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Allred: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Following that, to the same minister: will the minister be reinstating grants and bursaries once the economy picks up? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As you know, last year we did reduce the number of grants and bursaries and put that funding towards loans, which would allow us to increase the num- ber of student loans. That number has increased to almost 58,000 students, or 30 per cent of our student body, receiving loans last year.

We do believe that bursaries and grants are important to the system, and we would like to continue to look at ways to increase scholarships, grants, and bursaries. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-East, followed by the hon. Member for Drayton Valley-Calmar. Residential Building Code Ms Pastoor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s often been said that during boom times builders will pretty much hire anybody who can swing a hammer. Consequently, many people believe that as the economy ramps up, residential construction quality tends to diminish.

To the Minister of Municipal Affairs: given the oil patch’s propensity to draw away those who might otherwise con- sider working in the construction trades, particularly d uring boom times, can the minister guarantee that new residential construction is always being done by properly trained tradespeople? The Speaker: Normally questions that have the word “guarantee” are ruled out, but proceed. Mr. Goudreau: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. We continue to work with industry, and I guess there are a number of different ministers that are working with that particular industry to ensure that individuals are qualified.

There’s the minister of advanced education, who is responsible for some of the trades that come through. We are responsible through the building codes to make sure that certain things are met. There are a number of individuals that do work with industry and trade to ensure that the construc- tion . . . The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Pastoor: Thank you. Apparently, it’s not really that succes s- ful.

Given that a key recommendation of the ministry’s April 2008 Building Envelope Survey was that the government should e n- hance consumer protection and recourse relative to the bu ilding code, why is it that Albertans are still having to cope with inad e- quate protection? I think Fort McMurray is a huge example. Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, we continue to take steps to i m- prove both residential and industrial construction. We are working on an approach that includes enforcement, education, consumer protection, and recourse to deal with concerns about buildings and building envelopes.

Ms Pastoor: Thank you for that, Mr. Minister. What other changes is the minister contemplating that would better protect Albertans from shoddy construction practices but also address the unique challenge of anticipated overheated -construction employee shortages?

March 23, 2011 Alberta Hansard 515 Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, we recognize that buildings are often the single biggest investment that most Albertans make. We want to make sure that they are built to the standards that Albe r- tans expect and deserve. As I indicated in my previous answer, we will continue to take the steps that are needed to improve co n- struction practices. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Drayton Valley -Calmar, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Women in Postsecondary Education Mrs. McQueen: Thank you, Mr. Speake r.

Lately we’ve been hearing about the underrepresentation of women in our wor k- places and in positions of power. We’ve been hearing about inequities and barriers that continue to hold many women back. As a mother of four daughters my questions today are for the Min- ister of Advanced Education and Technology. Postsecondary education can open so many doors. Can the minister tell us: are women also underrepresented on Alberta’s campuses? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am happy to stand and answer the member on this.

Right now in our institutions 6 out of every 10, 60 per cent, of all certificates, diplomas, or degrees are granted to women. They are having a significant impact. In the fields of engineering, medicine, and science we have more women registered than men in these programs, so it’s a great step forward. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mrs. McQueen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the same min- ister. I’m glad to hear that. Can you also tell me: are women making the same progress when it comes to pursuing apprentic e- ships and careers in the trades? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I’m pleased to say that we are having some impact on women in the trades. Right now almost 10 per cent of our tradespeople that are in apprenticeship are women; however, it’s not as much as we would like. The numbers have grown. In 2005 there were 3,900 women. Now we have 5,600 women registered in apprenticeship training. Mrs. McQueen: Finally, to the same minister. You’ve got some good news there, but you’ve got a whole lot of work to do on that. What is your ministry doing to increase the number of women in Alberta’s trades? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Weadick: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is tr ue that there is a long way to go to make sure that our young women are aware of the great opportunities in trades. There are wonderful jobs. We have a program available called women building futures, and this gives women a chance to try the trades, to understand what’s i n- volved in the trades. It does help people to select what they would like to do. We’d like to continue to work with our young women and create opportunities in the trades. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lacombe-Ponoka. Municipal Funding Mr. Prins: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Municipalities are respons i- ble for providing core services for their citizens, and the province provides them with many levels of support. My question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs: to this point in 2011 how much MSI funding have municipalities received? Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, since 2007 MSI has provided $2.2 billion in long -term funding to help municipalities meet the de- mands of growth and sustainability. Again, those numbers constantly increase. The allocations are based on a formula devel- oped in consultation with over 450 municipal representatives. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr.

Prins: Thank you again. Some municipalities claim that they are receiving less MSI this year than last. What are the criteria for funding each municipality? Mr. Goudreau: Mr. Speaker, first, each municipality receives the base funding of $120,000 per year except for summer villages, which receive $60,000. Also, there’s $15 million per year in sus- tainable investment funding, and that’s divided between municipalities with populations below 10,000 and limited local assessment.

The vast majority of the funding, 48 pe r cent, is all o- cated on a population base, 48 per cent on the education tax requisition, and another 4 per cent on kilometres of local roads. So it’s meant to address the needs of all municipalities. 2:40 The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Prins: Well, than k you again. My last question to the same minister: do MSI amounts in all municipalities increase at the same rate? Mr. Goudreau: Mr.

Speaker, decreases or increases are due to annual changes in the municipality’s proportion of population, education tax requisition, or kilometres of road compared to the provincial total. In addition, some communities may see changes in their as- sessment base, again in relationship to the provincial average, which could in turn reduce the sustainable investment funding that they receive. This sustainable investment provides additional sup- port for those with a low property tax base in relation to their population.

This funding is then redirected among those munic i- palities that are eligible for sustainable investment funding. The Speaker: Hon. members, 19 members were recognized t o- day, with 114 questions and responses. In a few seconds now we will continue with the Routine. We are at the Introduction of Bills stage. head: Introduction of Bills (continued) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Hays. Bill Pr. 3 Auburn Bay Residents Association Tax Exemption Act Mr. Johnston: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I request leave to intr o- duce a bill being Bill Pr. 3, the Auburn Bay Residents Association Tax Exemption Act. [Motion carried; Bill Pr. 3 read a first time] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Hays.

516 Alberta Hansard March 23, 2011 Bill Pr. 4 Cranston Residents Association Tax Exemption Act Mr. Johnston: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to intr o- duce a bill being Bill Pr. 4, the Cranston Re sidents Association Tax Exemption Act. [Motion carried; Bill Pr. 4 read a first time] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Hays. Bill Pr. 5 New Brighton Residents Association Tax Exemption Act Mr. Johnston: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I request leave to intr o- duce a bill being Bill Pr. 5, the New Brighton Residents Association Tax Exemption Act. [Motion carried; Bill Pr. 5 read a first time] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Hays. Bill Pr. 6 Tuscany Residents Association Tax Exemption Act Mr. Johnston: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to intr o- duce a bill being Bill Pr. 6, the Tuscany Residents Association Tax Exemption Act. [Motion carried; Bill Pr. 6 read a first time] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Lougheed. Bill Pr. 7 Hull Child and Family Services Amendment Act, 2011 Mr. Rodney: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I request leave to intr o- duce a bill, that being the Hull Child and Family Services Amendment Act, 2011. Thank you. [Motion carried; Bill Pr. 7 read a first time] head: Tabling Returns and Reports The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health and Wellness. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to table with you for the Assembly the requisite number of copies of the following two reports. First, the 2009 annual r e- port from the College of Physicians & Surgeons of Alberta, titled Good Medical Practice: It’s What We’re All About.

Secondly, the 2010 annual report from the College of Regi s- tered Psychiatric Nurses of Alberta, which I will add, Mr. Speaker, is their 60th anniversary report. Congratulations to all of you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Mr. Chase: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As of today I will have t a- bled approximately one -fifth of the concerned Castle correspondence that I have received. If the session continues to June, as proposed, I might finish.

The names of the concer ned Castle individuals today are as follows: Mary Jane Phillips, Jenn i- fer McGowan, Karen Leask, Clayton Baumung, Craig Murray, Cindy Cox, Franziska Nonnenmann, Crystal Van Lare, C. Cu m- mings, Christine McLaughlin, Brice Peressini, Jeremy Nathan Marks, Darlene Varaleau, Jessica Warner, Jane Keast, Joshua Cornfield, Agata Bedynski, Roger Short, Marilyn Harris, Diane Poloczek, Jannie Mills, Caitlin Beresford, Linda Gearing, John Dale, and Marian Veasey. Thank you, Mr. Speaker The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have tablings today, and I want to put them all in a package. The first is a letter that I received – and I appreciated receiving it – on January 21, 2011, from the Minister of Employment and Immigration. It outlines the number of occupational injuries and diseases in A l- berta, the stop-work orders that have been issued, and a number of other very interesting facts. I also have included in this tabling some fine research done by the Alberta Liberal caucus researchers regarding the percentage of occupational health and safety inspections resulting from this or- der from 2002 to 2009.

The handwriting on there is mine. It was done outside, and it was a very cold day when I did it, so that w ill explain that. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure today to table the requisite copies of two letters, the first from a constituent of mine by the name of Victoria M organ writing to express her concerns regarding some proposed changes to the education act in relation to lowering the required age for grade 1.

The second is from another constituent of mine, Allison Hum- phreys, writing to express her concerns regarding the impact of the recent provincial budget for the Calgary board of education’s 2011-2012 funding. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Airdrie-Chestermere. Mr. Anderson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings today. One is from Myrna McDonald, a constituent. She has been waiting for a response from the minister of health for a while now.

Essentially, I’m not going to read a fraction of the letter, but I’ve promised her that I would mention this: it has been five months since I wrote to the Premier and the health minister, and I asked for an apology, if not an assurance, that women and men are treated with the respect they deserve in a hospital and not have to share a full bathroom and room with both genders. This is humil i- ating, to be standing in a glass shower and using the toilet and have someone of the opposite gender walk in on you.

Patients are suffering enough after surgeries and should not have to put up with such indignities and stress for weeks thereafter. I would table this and ask that the health minister have someone in his office please contact this individual and speak to her concern. The Speaker: This is tablings now. Mr. Anderson: The second tabling is r egarding my member’s statement that I made earlier today. I mentioned in it an Alberta Health Services report that was presented to the city of Airdrie showing that response times since the takeover of the Airdrie int e- grated service by Alberta Health Services in Airdrie have

March 23, 2011 Alberta Hansard 517 increased by 33 per cent, or about three minutes, for serious situa- tions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 2:50 The Speaker: The hon. deputy Leader of the Official Opposition. Ms Blakeman: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings to do today on behalf of the Leader of the Official Oppo- sition. The first is a document from Alberta Health Services listed as policy EC -01, established on January 14, 2009. It’s titled Safe Disclosure, and it falls under ethical conduct under the Alberta Health Services Board. The leader referred to that in his question today. The second tabling is from The Lancet , which is an

article ent i- tled Cancer Survival in Australia, Canada, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and the UK, 1995-2007 (the International Cancer Benchmarking Partnership): An Analysis of Population-based Cancer Registry Data. He referred to data from this report, which is peer reviewed, I’ll make a note of. The leader had referred to statistics here which showed that Alberta has the lowest survival rate for lung cancer in Canada. Thank you. The Speaker: We have a point of order that was raised by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar . Let’s be very succinct, okay? I think I understand what has happened here. Hon.

Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, proceed with your point of order. Point of Order Clarification Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I rise on this point of order under 23(

h) and (i), “makes allegations against another Member” and “imputes false or unavowed motives to another Member,” and also (l), “introduces any matter in debate that offends the practices and precedents of the Assembly.” Certainly, in question period earlier today the minister of health suggested that, well, these are matters that could be dealt with at Public Accounts. The minister of health knows full well – he has been there as a minister.

If he hasn’t had an opportunity to attend, certainly, there has been correspondence from the Public Accounts Committee to the minister’s office regarding how the process works. The minister was also a member of this Alberta Liberal caucus in the late ’90s, and he sat on the Public Accounts Com- mittee, so he should know the rules. The rules are this, Mr. Speaker. It’s quite explicit. We are only dealing at Public Accounts with the previous year’s financial statements, in this case 2009 -10.

The questions I asked earlier in question period dealt with the period between 2003 and 2009 and, specifically, the amounts that were spent at Capital health and then put under the other expenses column without an explanation. Now, the Government Accountability Act, I would note, gives the minister complete responsibility for his department. I would like to note in this House that as chair of the Public Accounts Committee I no longer have the right to set the

schedule for the meetings; that’s done by the committee. That was one thing that was made quite plain to me by the government majority on that committee. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the hon. minister to withdraw the reference that this issue could be dealt with at Public Accounts. It cannot. The rules of this House are quite clear. They’re quite plain about that. I’m disappointed that the minister didn’t remember that during question period.

So I would with all respect ask him to withdraw that suggestion that these questions should be directed to Public Accounts because certainly they ca n- not, and he of all members, with his past experience on this side of the House with the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre and his many years as a government minister, should know that. Thank you. Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, there may be a difference of opi n- ion here, obviously, which we’ll await your ruling on.

However, the simple fact, as this member obviously knows, is that matters of financial recording are accounted for through a system called Pu b- lic Accounts. Now, whether that was for the immediate previous year as has just been alluded to or not – it’s sometimes difficult to understand exactly which year this member is asking about b e- cause he has gone back as far as six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 12, 15 years. Nonetheless, I accept the clarification that he has given.

What I would ask is that this hon. member remember that Wri t- ten Questions and Motions for Returns are adequately described as places where detailed questions that would require instant recall over a period of many years could better be placed. If he’d be willing to do that in the future with his questions, I’d be willing to withdraw the point that I made earlier. The Speaker: Hon. members, there always is a difficulty with, I guess, when a question is asked and the time frames related to it. We without any doubt have a situation called Written Questions and Motions for Returns.

Traditionally, if you look at all of the questions in the Order Paper, the requests for information can go back two years, four years, six years, eight years, 10 years. Whether or not a minister has that kind of finite information in front of him when he answers a question in the House is quite questionable, I would think. Some ministers may have a phot o- graphic memory and be able to carry all of this in their minds, but I suspect the norm is that very few of us in life actually have a photographic memory beyond what’s happened in the last year or two as opposed to X number of years.

Secondly, what was really stated in the Blues – and I listened very attentively to the question; I do to all members. The minister of health: Mr. Speaker, the first effort I made was to appeal to this me m- ber to put this question to the proper process, which he knows very well. There is a thing called Motions for Returns . . . Okay. . . . and there is a thing where he knows very well that he’s al- lowed to put a question forward through his own group that he chairs. I actually thought that was what the point of order was going to be, but it didn’t actually come up that way.

There is a tradition that goes back – and it’s certainly followed in most committees but not all committee s – that, in essence, the chair does not ask questions. The chair does administrative things. However, there always has been a provision that if the chair of a committee chooses to want to ask a question, he simply leaves the chair, asks the deputy chair of the committee to serve in that ca- pacity, and then he can ask questions. I do not believe this has been the tradition of the Public Accounts Committee. I read the minutes, but I don’t follow that, specifically.

If, in fact, the point of order was going t o be that “I can’t raise a question,” I think that the hon. minister of health would probably not necessarily know that because why would any minister, if they appear before Public Accounts once a year, actually know that? So we certainly had a point of clarification. I don’t believe this is a point of order. It’s one of those little things that can cause some real, real frustration if one member

518 Alberta Hansard March 23, 2011 raising a question says, “Well, I know I can’t ask a question at that committee,” and somebody says, “Well, why don’t you use your job at your committee to ask the question?” Yeah, okay. We’re going in two different directions in here. So I hope there’s a bit of a clarification. Members might want to take a look at House of Commons Pro- cedure and Practice, page 504. They might also want to look at sections on pages 1031 and 1039 with respect to this. It’s certainly not often the case where the chair would leave and the deputy chair would come in.

I certainly indicate that for the Members’ Services Committee for the years that I’ve been on that commi t- tee, which is almost 30 some -odd years, that’s never been the procedure that we’ve followed in that committee. 3:00 head: Committee of Supply [Mr. Mitzel in the chair] The Deputy Chair: I’d like to call the Committee of S upply to order. head: Main Estimates 2011-12 Culture and Community Spirit The Deputy Chair: Hon. minister, do you wish to open this? Mr. Blackett: Yes, Mr. Chair. My officials will be in momentarily. Good afternoon.

I’m pleased to be here today with key ministry staff to review the 2011-12 Alberta Culture and Community Spirit estimates. I will be joined by my deputy minister, Lois Hawkins; Assistant Deputy Minister Tom Thackeray; Senior Financial Off i- cer Pam Arnston; the acting director of planning and pe rformance measurement, Brad Babiak; the director of lottery funding pr o- grams, Carl Royan; and the communications director, Parker Hogan.

Through one-on-one meetings of our regional dialogues Albe r- tans from the arts, cultural, heritage, not -for-profit, voluntary, and diversity sectors have shared ideas on how we can best achieve our shared goals to give every Albertan the opportunity to express their cultural identity through improved access and increased c a- pacity, every opportunity possible to develop as a rtists and performers, and to explore and experience our rich and varied history from people to paleontology, give them new opportunities for creative, innovative ideas to take shape on the stage or the screen, in print, or in digital format and the encour agement to be involved in their communities.

This year’s budget reflects the realities of the economic climate that we are living in today. We must be prudent to ensure that our recovery and our growth are sustainable. In this budget we are holding a responsible line on spending while looking for opport u- nities to make strategic investments that will build on the strengths of Alberta and Albertans. We see these opportunities as we see the strengths of our cultural industries and our arts and heritage com- munities and our not -for-profit and voluntary sectors.

This work enhances the quality of life for all Albertans and pays dividends and even greater economic, cultural, and social returns. For 2011-12 the total budget for Culture and Community Spirit is $225 million. Within this budget we are able to maintain the same level of operational funding as we had last year at $174 mi l- lion. It is important to note that while Budget 2011 shows a net reduction of $35 million in my ministry’s funding, this is related to capital funding, not the operating budget.

As we complete the 2010-11 fiscal year, we’ve also completed $35 million in capital funds commitments for major projects like the Go Community Centre and Citadel Theatre renovations in Edmonton and Ca n- ada’s sports hall of fame in Calgary. We are projecting expenditures of $58 million in support of the arts and cultural industry sector. Of this, $30 million will support artists, arts organizations, book and magazine publishing, and the sound recording industry through the Alberta Foundation for the Arts and direct department funding.

In film and television throughout the realm of digital media Alberta’s star is on the rise. During my recent tour to Los Angeles with Alberta producers, directors, and union and guild representa- tives my message was that Alberta is home to some of the best talent in performance, technical production, and locations in North America. I’m pleased to say that most studio heads echoed those sentiments. With this budget we are committing near ly $21 million in sup- port to our creative and multimedia industries.

Included in this total is a $2 million increase in base funding for the Alberta mu l- timedia development fund, bringing the value of the fund to a total of $18.3 million. The stories of Alberta will continue to be told for the benefit of the audience and the teller alike. The stories of our past and pr e- sent will come to life for visitors to provincial heritage sites and museums, and young Albertans will continue to have access to programming that meets curriculum standards through direct visits and distance learning via video conferencing or web -based co n- ferences.

Within Budget 2011 $47 million is assigned for heritage pr o- gramming, including support for the Royal Alberta Museum, the Royal Tyrrell Museum, the Provincial Archives, and our provi n- cial museums and historic sites across Alberta. This also includes $8.2 million for the Alberta Historical Resources Foundation and for the preservation and maintenance of historic sites held privat e- ly or by municipalities. This investment will ensure that all Albertans have the opportunity to experience the culture and the ever-growing legacy of the land and its people.

Alberta’s not-for-profit and voluntary sectors play a vital role in providing community-based services. Many of these services su p- port the most vulnerable Albertans. The value of these services is estimated at $9 billion of gross domestic product annually. This is an amazing rate of return on the investments we have made in supporting our not-for-profit and voluntary agencies and organiza- tions, and we will continue to make these wise investments. In Budget 2011 $105 million is being designated for community and voluntary support.

This includes $38 million for the comm u- nity facility enhan cement program and $25.25 million for the equally successful community initiatives program. Budget 2011 provides $16 million for the community spirit program donation grant, which encourages more individual donations to not -for- profit organizations and registered Alberta charities. These dollars will help grow the already impressive contributions of our not -for- profit, voluntary, and community groups and the positive impact their work has on the lives of Albertans.

The positive impact and energy of our voluntary sector will be felt and seen in Edmonton on June 14 and 15 as program staff, board members, and volun- teers gather for Vitalize 2011. Alberta’s cultural policy, the Spirit of Alberta, is built upon the idea of inclusion. The Spirit of Alberta provides the opportunity for all Albertans to express their cultural identity, to do so freely, to take pride in and to share in the richness of their ancestry, to live in a tolerant environment free of discrimination. This is the right of all Albertans. Budget 2011 provides $5.2 million to the Alberta Human Rights Commission.

With this support we continue to ensure that the human rights of all Albertans are protected and work to resolve

March 23, 2011 Alberta Hansard 519 the differences that arise through a streamlined and effective di s- pute resolution process. Our continued investment of $2 million in the human rights education and multiculturalism fund will support efforts to build healthier, more tolerant communities. At a time when there remains much global uncertainty, Alber- tans can be optimistic about the present and the future. As a government we have worked hard to strategically manage all of our resources. We have looked for new ways to increase efficien- cy internally so that we are able to maintain funding levels to program areas.

Our investments in information technology infrastructure have improved communications with stakeholders. With more people using Internet-based services for information, we need to have the systems in place for effective and efficient delivery of that info r- mation. With those systems in place we are better able to promote and deliver our programs and services and help build capacity and understanding. The resources provided in this budget will allow us to continue to achieve the goals set out in the Spirit o f Alberta.

We cannot lose the momentum that we have created in the past three years to develop, foster, and showcase our culture and community spirit. Working together, we have already achieved a great many su c- cesses. My ministry continues to work closely with our stakeholders and all Albertans so that we may achieve so much more in the future, remembering the four key pillars: striving for greater access for all Albertans to arts and culture; maintaining capacity in all our communities for arts, culture, and recreation; focusing on excellence; and providing sustainable support for our cultural industries. Thank you.

The Deputy Chair: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Ms Blakeman: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. May I we l- come and thank the staff of the minister who are on the floor here today to aid him. The Deputy Chair: Hon. member, do you wish to go back and forth, as has been the practice? Ms Blakeman: Yeah. Sure. The Deputy Chair: Okay. Thank you. Ms Blakeman: I know it’s not always your happiest day to be here, and I appreciate it. Some of you, I’m sure, enjoy it, but ot h- ers not so much. I’m sure the minister appreciates it, and I appreciate it.

If we have additional staff in the gallery, my wel- come to them as well. Thank you to the minister for the overview. I did my best to take notes. I’m afraid I got a bit lost at a certain point, so I may not have taken down every fact and figure that he gave. If I ask for a statistic he’s given, please forgive me. 3:10 I do note and agree that there appears to be a whopping big decrease in the budget this year.

But as we set out – and I was quite specific about setting it out last year – there was some $30 million included in the budget last year, which actually made the cuts look not so bad, which were specifically capital improv e- ments, and it was flow -through money from the federal government. Of course, this year that money is not there, so it looks like the budget dropped by a lot of money, and it, in fact, was not that bad.

When you take out that 30 million six hundred and something dollars, you’ve got fairly stable funding in most areas, and I will ask specifically when I see an area where there’s been a significant drop. I will point out to anyone listening or following this at home that the funding for this department goes a long, long way. What looks like a large percentage is actually a pretty small amount of money here. You know, you can have 21 per cent representing only a million dollars or something. It sounds like a big perce n- tage, but it’s actually quite a small amount of money.

The groups that are funded through this department stretch that money further than anyone could believe possible. Keep in mind that I think we all get very, very good value for our money out of this particular department. Just a couple of observations. The ministry support services are up what looks to be about 25 per cent from the 2010- 11 budget, and I’ll come back to that a couple of times. Corporate initiatives: I remember us talking about that last year. Again, it’ s up 65 per cent. Neither of those, I think, are particularly direct support to artists or art organizations. It’s administrative money.

I will come back later and question that. The creative and multimedia industries, as the minister noted, are up $2 million, which represents some 8 per cent, bringing that fund to $8 million. The administration for the Alberta Foundation for the Arts a p- pears to have gone up by 41 per cent, again not reflective of money being delivered straight to the artists. I’ll come back to the Wild Rose Foundation because it appears to have gone up 91 per cent from last year’s budget. Now, there’s no additional funding from government here, so it seems like a really optimistic projection.

Community and voluntary support services is down, but again that is reflective of that federal capital money. Under heritage historic sites and other museums it’s down by 8 per cent, which is going to hurt them a lot. The Alberta Historical Resources Foundation is also down. Some organizations out there are going to be trying to squeeze more money out of – what’s that phrase? You can’t get blood from a stone. That’s it. You can’t get more money out of this.

In specifically looking at the estimates on page 82, line 1, mi n- istry support services, it looks as though a lot of the program areas did take cuts and last year even looked like they were underspent. I’m wondering why there was such significant overspending in ministry support services and why this budget has been increased for 2011-12. It was higher than budgeted, and then there’s an addi- tional increase. Again, we’re not talking billions of dollars here. Nonetheless, it is an increase that I’m asking about.

Under the corporate initiatives, which is line 1.7 of the voted expenses by program, appearing on page 82 of the budget – most of my questions are around that page 82 – I’m wondering what these corporate initiatives are. I asked specifically last year, and it wasn’t incredibly clear, so again the explanation for the 65 per cent overage. It was budgeted for $2.9 million, and it was forecast for the end of the year at $4.3 million, and next year it’s at $4.8 million, which again is a fairly substantial increase. Could I get an explanation for why it was overspent?

Again, what is anticipated being spent under that corporate initiatives sector? If it’s funding certain projects, I’d like to know which ones, please. Under equipment purchases, again that’s under corporate initi a- tives: what are the equipment purchases that have happened here, and, I guess, why do they have a priority now? If some programs are taking operational programming hits and are able to deliver less, I’m wondering why the minister felt it was important to co n- tinue the funding of the capital?

520 Alberta Hansard March 23, 2011 I think I’ll let you answer that sec tion because it’s kind of a complete section, and then we’ll continue. Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Deputy Chair: The hon. minister. Mr. Blackett: Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. The reason for the increases with respect to corporate initiatives is that Service A l- berta no longer provides the funding for a lot of the initiatives with respect to IT, whether it’s management – we were stuck as a department going through a conversion to a different program, a different network.

To be able to fund the finalization of that inte- gration, we had to take that out of our own dollars, so those were significant dollars that we needed to do it. We couldn’t stay in no- man’s-land. We identified IT as one of our key cost -effective measures to create access for all Albertans. We’ve got all of our historic sites and interpretative centres. We’re now trying to focus more on distance learning, like we do so well at Head -Smashed-In Buffalo Jump and at the Royal Tyrrell Museum.

We’re encouraging other sites, like the Frank Slide Interpretive Centre and the Oil Sands Discovery Centre, to utilize that web-based kind of connectivity. It means that people in other remote locations across the province can have access to that kind of information as well. In terms of the equipment, the equipment was used to purchase the GATE system, our new computer system, which would give online application access and reporting and updates with respect to our community investment programs through lottery, so our CFEP program, our CIP, our community spirit donor program.

It will eventually include our AFA and our Alberta multimedia develop- ment fund. We had to expend money in the previous year to make sure that we developed the system, and we worked with a supplier to be able to do that. This year we had to have t he actual physical equipment, so that’s why it’s in the budget. Ms Blakeman: Okay. I would expect, then, that the money in that area would decrease in the year following, seeing as all of that has been paid for.

I also have to make the observation that, u nfortunately, I’ve been here long enough that I saw the creation of Service Alberta, and there was money transferred from departments to create Ser- vice Alberta to pay for all of that admin. I’ll have to put it on the record that I’m a little ticked if Service Alberta is punting stuff back to departments without returning the money. I’ll put that one on the record because, as far as I’m concerned, that’s not a square deal. Each department certainly funded it to begin with.

I’m going to move down now and look at cultural industries, which is up slightly, very slightly, 2.5 per cent from last year’s budget, but we’ve got to take this in context of what happened the year before that. It’s down still $10 million from the previous year, ’09-10, so none of these ones have recovered to where they were. They took a huge hit, and they’re getting a little bit back in a lot of cases in this budget. Under cultural industries can the minister provide a breakdown of where the funding is going, in particular how much is going to film and television? Now, he’d mentioned the $18 million.

There may be an opportunity there to explain a bit more about that, or perhaps it’s still just the $18 million. 3:20 Now, I noticed that in the business plan on page 42 two of the three prio rity initiatives are relating to the AFA application process. 1.1 Refine the Alberta Foundation for the Arts’ application processes to improve efficiency, transparency and access i- bility . . . 1.2 Increase the use of peer assessment . . . to foster artistic excellence, promote organizational health and ensure transparency. I’m wondering where the funding to support those initiatives turns up in this budget.

What line item is it under? I’m wondering if there are funds being taken from artistic support programming to support the implementation of those two priority goals. That’s one series under cultural industries. I’m going to keep moving and look at the funding for the Alber- ta Foundation for the Arts. Now, I actually can’t quite tell if this funding went up or down because depending on where you look at it, you get slightly different numbers: somewhere between $26 million and change and $27 million and change.

But the admini s- tration is budgeted at the same level as the 2010 -11 forecast, and that’s 41 per cent up and 49 per cent up from the previous year. So again I’m seeing administration costs go up a lot, but direct deli- very of grants to artists and arts organizations is either stable, a little bit up, or a little bit down. I’m wondering why administration has had to increase by almost half as much again twice, coming into the ’10-11 year and then the ’11-12 year that we’re talking about here. I’m also looking to confirm that the administration numbers are coming under vote 2.4.

It’s saying, “Assistance to the Alberta Foundation for the Arts,” but I know from those numbers that actually is the Foundation for the Arts. So if there could be clarif i- cation, please, around how that actually breaks down. Now, one of the issues that came up last year was the timing. At the time of the debates I raised it with the minister because in response to a number of questions where I was looking for pa r- ticular details, the minister’s response was: “Well, we’re deciding that. We’re working on it. We’ll figure that out in May, June.

We’re having consultations.” This puzzled me because the way I was taught to do a budget, you had to know what the numbers were to actually project the budget, and this seemed to be more: “Well, we’ll put this number in here, and then we’ll kind of figure out what we’re going to do.” The results of this were – and he did appear to consult the groups in May, June, but I was hearing from groups over the summer that they still had not received their cheques and, in some cases, weren’t too clear on exac tly how much money they were going to get.

That became very problematic because they had been warned the previous summer that, yes, there might be terrible cuts coming but not to worry: “Don’t do anything because maybe there won’t be cuts.” So they didn’t quite make the moves because they weren’t too sure, and they were instructed by department staff to, you know, not do anything drastic, to wait. But then they waited and waited and waited, and they waited past the budget. They waited past May, June, and some of them into, as I say, the sum- mer to find out exactly what their budget was.

For a couple of them this was really difficult because by the time they found out they’d had a 15 or 16 or, in one case, a 19 per cent cut, they were already well into their year. I’m wondering what the minister is doing to improve the ce r- tainty of the grant amounts that are going to both artists and through the grant programs and whether there is a process for both indicating the amounts and delivering the grants faster? I’l l give you an opportunity to answer those. Mr. Blackett: I think the first question was: out of item 2.3 how much was for the multimedia development fund?

In this budget I believe it’s $18.3 million, and that’s an increase from $16.5 mi l- lion in the last fiscal year. We thought that was important to be able to do that because there is going to be an increase in the

March 23, 2011 Alberta Hansard 521 number of productions that we’re going to have in Alberta in this coming year, and we wanted to be able to support that. With respect to item 2. 4 you had mentioned the increase in funding for other initiatives, and you wondered if that was admi n- istrative in nature and if they were coming out of program funding. The thing is they are all coming out of it. That is coming out of administration.

There is no increased administrative ex- penditures to be incurred by our department for those initiatives, and that will come out of the existing dollars, which I believe is under program support, item 2.1, $748,000. Now, under administration, the AFA, you will have a line on page 94. If you look at page 94, the expense there is $1.278 mi l- lion. I stand corrected. The $748,000 I said was for administrative grants; the $1.2 million is actually administration of all the other different programs. In response to the performance measures . . . Ms Blakeman: Priority initiatives. Mr.

Blackett: Those priority initiatives and the funding of those, I think we have addressed that. That will come out of those other administrative dollars. You had made a reference to cuts that were made, that organiza- tions felt that they didn’t know what was going to happen after the budget last year, and they didn’t find out until July. From what I can remember, our AFA grants to those organizations always came out about that same time fra me. I’m told that this year we will be giving the groups an advance while the board reviews their allocation for the groups.

So they will find out, they will get an advance, and that, I imagine, would occur after April 1, and then they will receive the bal ance of their funding in July. Since we have no further reductions in funding for this coming fiscal year, I think most of those groups should feel fairly confident that they will receive the amount that they received last year. I think that answers all of the questions. The Deputy Chair: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thanks. That’s very useful. Yes, for some time the department gave advances and then followed up with the exact amount that was owing further on.

I don’t know whether we got away from that, but boy there was a lot of uncertainty and stress in the community last year because of that. Okay. We need to clear this up. I think this is all connected, but I have raised in question period a couple of times and in the media and other places an issue with respect to artists who were recei v- ing monies through grant programs that were associated with, generally, a specific location.

Initially through the community series grant, I think it was, any group that was associated or per- forming in a building that was owned by a municipality was told that they would not be eligible to apply for that grant anymore, which was in their minds the same as a cut. That got turned around, and they were told that wouldn’t be implemented but that they would have to form themselves into a not -for-profit so that they could apply to get the same money they had before, but it couldn’t be coming and be associated with a municipally owned building.

Then there was the program that was the artists in the school program, I think. I may not have the right name there. Sorry. So any school that recei ved funding to bring in artistic groups that would work with the kids over an extended period of time, artists in residence programs, that kind of thing – it wasn’t a perfo r- mance; it was a working artistic experience for the kids – people were told that that was being cut, that they actually had their last grant and that there would be no more money coming in this grant period. Both the Member for St.

Albert and myself asked the ques- tion: why is there discrimination to this group of artists based on the fact that they’re doing a project in a school? That’s discrimina- tion based on where they’re doing it. The minister said that he hadn’t okayed that, and that was turned around or withdrawn. 3:30 The last groups out there that are still being discriminated against are groups that are performing their work and whose affi l- iation is with the location of a university. That one the minister has not turned around. I have asked him questions in question period on that.

For example, the difference between Mile Zero Dance and Orchesis: one is a dance group that’s affiliated with the University of Alberta. They have been told that that’s it, that they’ve already had their last grant; they had it last summer, and it’s over. The U of A mixed chorus, the organ recital group, any arts groups that are somehow situated or associated with the uni- versities have been told: game over; no more money flowing through there. Assistance for the book publishers as well: game over. Again I question why there is discrimination based on pla ce. I’m going to connect the dots here.

I think this has to do with the minister’s desire to have other ministries take over funding for groups that he believes are more affiliated with that location than with the arts specifically, but I’ll let him tell me if I’m right there. I’m looking for consistency here. If we’ve managed to recog- nize that it’s inappropriate to discriminate against artists and arts groups that are affiliated with municipal buildings and artists that are affiliated with educational institutions, why do we insist on continuing the discrimination based on an association with unive r- sities and colleges?

I would like an explanation on that because I don’t think it’s fair. I think if we’re a cultural ministry and we’re trying to support artis ts – artists work all over the place. I can tell you that when I was a working artist, most of my rent money came from doing things that were artistic and certainly used all of my training. But I was delivering stuff in the police service; I was working for the hospitals. I was all over the place, and that paid a lot of rent money.

So saying that where you’re doing it somehow makes you ineligible for artistic grants I think is inappropriate, but I’ll let the minister put the explanation on the record. I’m also wondering how we’re going to get the communication on that, if it’s going to be carried through, so that it’s far enough ahead that people are able to plan for that.

Following up on the minister’s statements that playgrounds should be paid for by the Department of Education and things, can the minister tell us if any ministers did respond to his encourag e- ment and take up the gauntlet, take up the torch to fund the initiatives that were previously funded by Culture and Community Spirit? I’d be very interested to see if that happened because I suspect the answer is no. Further to that, does the minister still believe that this is a viable approach to funding initiatives that fall between the cracks?

If it hasn’t worked so far, does the minister have any other ideas about how to convince these other ministers to take on the responsibility for funding what he views as cultural and/or community-based funding through their departments? The other examples that he made were Environment creating water groups that were then registered as not -for-profits that then applied for funding through CIP or CFEP. He felt that they should be funded through Environment. This is all coming to mind be- cause I’ve reread the Hansard from last year’s debate, and that was one of the examples that he raised. I gue