British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, July 10, 2013

20130710pm-Hansard-v2n5

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 40th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) THE HONOURABLE LINDA REID, SPEAKER ISSN 0709- 1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) Wednesday, July 10, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 2, Number 5

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC First Session, 40th Parliament SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council .............................................................................................................. Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ......................Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ......................................................................................................... Hon. John Rustad Minister of Advanced Education ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Amrik Virk Minister of Agriculture ............................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Pat Pimm Minister of Children and Family Development ....................................................................................................... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ........................................................................................... Hon. Coralee Oakes Minister of Education ..................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Peter Fassbender Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review .....................................................................Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ..........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Finance .................................................................................................................................................. Hon.

Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations......................................................................................Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ............................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ..................Hon.

Teresa Wat Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...................................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ....................................................................................................Hon. Naomi Y amamoto Minister of Justice ...............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Suzanne Anton Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation..................................................................................................... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ................................................................................... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ......................................................................................................................Hon.

Todd Stone LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ......................................................................................................................................................Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker .............................................................................................................................................................................Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...............................................................................................................................................................

Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ....................................................................................................................................... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ................................................................................................................................................... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees .................................................................................................................................

Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...................................................................................................................................................Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ..............................................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary Lenz

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) .............................. Vancouver-Fraserview Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal).....................................................................Penticton Austin, Robin (NDP) ................................................................................ Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP) ....................................................................Surrey-Newton Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ............................................... Cariboo-Chilcotin Bennett, Hon.

Bill (BC Liberal) ...................................................Kootenay East Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ................................................... Peace River South Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ................................ Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ........................... Prince George–Valemount Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ................................Surrey-Cloverdale Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) .................................Vancouver–West End Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................

Burnaby-Edmonds Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) .......................... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .............................................................. Kootenay West Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ..................................................... Burnaby–Deer Lake Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ............................................. Maple Ridge–Mission Darcy, Judy (NDP) ..................................................................New Westminster de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ..............................

Abbotsford West Dix, Adrian (NDP) ............................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ......................................................................... Stikine Eby, David (NDP) ..........................................................Vancouver–Point Grey Elmore, Mable (NDP) ................................................... Vancouver-Kensington Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ............................................................ Port Coquitlam Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...................................

Surrey-Fleetwood Fleming, Rob (NDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan Lake Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) .......................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Scott (NDP) ............................................................Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ............................................. Abbotsford-Mission Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...........................................................Delta North Hammell, Sue (NDP) ....................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Heyman, George (NDP) .................................................... Vancouver-Fairview Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ............................................... Surrey–White Rock Holman, Gary (NDP) .......................................Saanich North and the Islands Horgan, John (NDP) .......................................................................

Juan de Fuca Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ..............................Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ....................................................Surrey-Panorama Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, Carole (NDP) .........................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................Esquimalt–Royal Roads Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) .............................................................

Nanaimo Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ........................................................................ Shuswap Lake, Hon. Dr.

Terry (BC Liberal) ....................Kamloops–North Th ompson Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) .........................................Boundary-Similkameen Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ......................................................Burnaby North Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal) ........................................Kelowna–Lake Country Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ....................................Columbia River–Revelstoke McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ..................................................

Comox Valley Martin, John (BC Liberal) ..................................................................Chilliwack Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ..................................... Prince George–Mackenzie Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ..........................................................Nelson-Creston Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) .............................................Cariboo North Pimm, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...............................................Peace River North Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ....................................................Abbotsford South Polak, Hon.

Mary (BC Liberal) .............................................................. Langley Popham, Lana (NDP) ...................................................................Saanich South Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ................................................................ Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ..................................................Richmond East Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ........................................

Port Moody–Coquitlam Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ........................................................................North Coast Robinson, Selina (NDP) .............................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Routley, Bill (NDP) .................................................................. Cowichan Valley Routley, Doug (NDP) ............................................Nanaimo–North Cowichan Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ................................................

Nechako Lakes Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...............................................Burnaby-Lougheed Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Shane (NDP) ..................................................... Vancouver-Hastings Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ........................................ Parksville-Qualicum Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ........................................ Vancouver-Langara Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) .........................

Kamloops–South Th ompson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ..................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...........................................Vancouver–False Creek Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ..................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ............................................................Fraser-Nicola Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) .......................................Kelowna-Mission Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ..........................

North Vancouver–Seymour Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal).................................................Chilliwack-Hope Trevena, Claire (NDP) .................................................................... North Island Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ............................................. Surrey-Tynehead Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) .............................................. Richmond Centre Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) .......................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ........................ Vancouver-Quilchena Y amamoto, Hon.

Naomi (BC Liberal) ................ North Vancouver–Lonsdale Y ap, John (BC Liberal) ......................................................Richmond-Steveston Vacant ...................................................................................... Westside-Kelowna LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Mission ......................................................................Simon Gibson Abbotsford South ............................................................................Darryl Plecas Abbotsford West ...................................................... Hon.

Michael de Jong, QC Alberni–Pacifi c Rim .......................................................................... Scott Fraser Boundary-Similkameen ................................................................ Linda Larson Burnaby–Deer Lake ................................................................... Kathy Corrigan Burnaby-Edmonds .........................................................................

Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Lougheed .............................................................Jane Jae Kyung Shin Burnaby North .............................................................................. Richard T. Lee Cariboo-Chilcotin ........................................................................Donna Barnett Cariboo North .................................................................... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chilliwack .........................................................................................

John Martin Chilliwack-Hope ....................................................................... Laurie Th roness Columbia River–Revelstoke .................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley...........................................................................Hon. Don McRae Coquitlam–Burke Mountain .....................................................Douglas Horne Coquitlam-Maillardville........................................................... Selina Robinson Cowichan Valley ................................................................................

Bill Routley Delta North ..................................................................................Scott Hamilton Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki Huntington Esquimalt–Royal Roads .....................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Fraser-Nicola....................................................................................

Jackie Tegart Juan de Fuca .....................................................................................John Horgan Kamloops–North Th ompson ............................................ Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Kamloops–South Th ompson ..................................................Hon. Todd Stone Kelowna–Lake Country ............................................................... Norm Letnick Kelowna-Mission .............................................................. Hon. Steve Th omson Kootenay East .......................................................................... Hon.

Bill Bennett Kootenay West ............................................................................ Katrine Conroy Langley.......................................................................................Hon. Mary Polak Maple Ridge–Mission ..................................................................... Marc Dalton Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................ Dr. Doug Bing Nanaimo ........................................................................... Leonard Eugene Krog Nanaimo–North Cowichan .........................................................

Doug Routley Nechako Lakes ........................................................................ Hon. John Rustad Nelson-Creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall New Westminster ............................................................................... Judy Darcy North Coast......................................................................................Jennifer Rice North Island .................................................................................. Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale ........................................Hon.

Naomi Y amamoto North Vancouver–Seymour ................................................. Jane Th ornthwaite Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...................................................... Dr. Andrew Weaver Parksville-Qualicum .................................................................Michelle Stilwell Peace River North ...................................................................... Hon. Pat Pimm Peace River South ............................................................................Mike Bernier Penticton............................................................................................

Dan Ashton Port Coquitlam ..........................................................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Coquitlam ................................................................Linda Reimer Powell River–Sunshine Coast ................................................. Nicholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie ............................................................. Mike Morris Prince George–Valemount ................................................... Hon. Shirley Bond Richmond Centre ......................................................................Hon.

Teresa Wat Richmond East ..........................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich North and the Islands .................................................... Gary Holman Saanich South ................................................................................

Lana Popham Shuswap ................................................................................................Greg Kyllo Skeena .............................................................................................. Robin Austin Stikine ....................................................................................... Doug Donaldson Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Surrey-Fleetwood ........................................................... Hon.

Peter Fassbender Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton ................................................................................. Harry Bains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................................... Marvin Hunt Surrey-Tynehead ......................................................................Hon. Amrik Virk Surrey-Whalley..............................................................................

Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ....................................................................... Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Fairview ..................................................................George Heyman Vancouver–False Creek ................................................................... Sam Sullivan Vancouver-Fraserview ......................................................Hon.

Suzanne Anton Vancouver-Hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................Mable Elmore Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara .................................................................Dr. Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .........................................

Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .........................................................................David Eby Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................ Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Vancouver–West End ...............................................

Spencer Chandra Herbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................Eric Foster Victoria–Beacon Hill .......................................................................Carole James Victoria–Swan Lake.........................................................................Rob Fleming West Vancouver–Capilano .............................................................

Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ..........................................................Jordan Sturdy Westside-Kelowna ......................................................................................Vacant Party Standings: BC Liberal 48; New Democratic 34; Independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS Wednesday, July 10, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting Page Routine Business Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................................................................... 321 Statements (Standing Order 25B) ........................................................................................................................................... 321 Cultural events in B.C. R. Lee Th e Art Studios and community-based mental health programs M. Elmore Chilliwack Municipal Airport coff ee shop pie sales and fundraising J.

Martin Agricultural land in Peace River area N. Simons Blueberries S. Gibson Local corner stores and McGill Grocery in Vancouver S. Simpson Oral Questions ........................................................................................................................................................................... 323 Drug review process for Champix M. Farnworth Hon. T. Lake Drug review process and role of therapeutics initiative J. Darcy Hon. T. Lake B.C. PavCo lease agreement with Paragon Gaming S. Simpson Hon. T. Stone J. Horgan Kitwanga mill operations and timber supply D. Donaldson Hon.

M. de Jong Timber supply and forest industry jobs in Kitwanga area D. Donaldson Hon. S. Bond Vancouver Coastal Health Authority newborn hotline service M. Elmore Hon. T. Lake Recovery of deceased persons from B.C. waters D. Eby Hon. S. Anton

Orders of the Day Committee of Supply ................................................................................................................................................................ 328 Estimates: Ministry of Children and Family Development Hon. S. Cadieux C. James J. Rice Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ................................................................................................................................................................ 347 Estimates: Ministry of Environment Hon. M. Polak S. Chandra Herbert G. Holman V . Huntington

WEDNESDAY , JULY 10, 2013 Th e House met at 1:33 p.m. [Madame Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Prayers. Introductions by Members C. James: In the gallery today, taking a break from their usual very active

schedule and their winning record, is the Beacon Hill Little League Minor Boys Tournament team, from my constituency. Th is fantastic team of nine- and ten-year-old boys are district 7 champions, and they'll be representing Victoria at the upcoming provin- cial tournament starting on Saturday. [1335] As the members can see, they're up in the gallery in their team colours. Th ey are: Luke Anderson, Jackson Blanchard, Luca Bolzonello, Jasper Calder, Quinton Horvath, Ryder Knox, James McGhie, Tyler Newby, Jasper Rye, Blake Stolth, Ryan Th omas, Jack Walmsley and Soren Wishart.

Th ey're joined by their coaches — John Anderson, Les Horvath, Th or Wishart and Gus Niketas. Would the House please make them very wel- come and congratulate them on their winning record. Hon. T. Lake: It's a great pleasure to have with us in the precinct today — meeting with MLAs, and I'll be meeting with them later — the Interior Health Authority Chair, Mr. Norm Embree, and the president and CEO of Interior Health, Dr. Rob Halpenny, who work very hard on behalf of the residents of the Interior. Would the House please make them very welcome. K. Conroy: I'm really pleased to introduce some guests today.

Our daughter is here, Sasha Batchelor, and with her is her daughter, my oldest granddaughter, Daira Batchelor. Just so some of you know, I'm going to announce something a little prematurely. Th e former member for Chilliwack…. I don't know if the member for Chilliwack is aware of the reputation he has to keep up, but John Les, it seemed like every session, came and would announce the arrival of yet another grandchild. We think he was trying to fi eld a football team. Well, I'm happy to say that Sasha is also pregnant, so I'm going to be able to have a hockey team very soon.

Also with them, I'm really thrilled to introduce my cousins from Denmark. Mette and Tina Th or Jorgensen have come all the way to tour through B.C., and they just so happened to get to come here and enjoy the parlia- ment. Th ey tell us that in Denmark the opposition has a lot of opportunity to have input into the budget and ac- tually make changes to the budget. So I just thought I'd let the folks on the other side know that. I would like you to all join me in making them very welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25B) CULTURAL EVENTS IN B.C. R.

Lee: When storytellers dress in their Victorian cos- tume and the bagpipers in kilts are surrounded by ap- preciative tourists on the front lawn of these Parliament Buildings, we know summer is upon us. Th is summer I've been privileged to attend a number of diverse cultural events throughout my riding and the province. In British Columbia we are very fortunate to have the opportunity to experience a mosaic of cultures as many people of the world choose our province to work, to play and to have a family.

In the last two months I have had the pleasure of at- tending many cultural events in my community, includ- ing the inauguration of B.C.'s largest mosque in Delta, the Greek Summer Festival, the Taiwanese Heritage Festival, the International Food and Fun at Burnaby Central Secondary School, the Regione Puglia Italy reception, the Italian Heritage celebration at the Italian Cultural Centre, the Italian Days on Commercial Drive and the 16th European Festival at the Swangard Stadium. At the Scandinavian Cultural Centre we had the Scandinavian Midsummer Night Festival and Indonesia Day. At Michael J.

Fox Th eatre we had the Colours of Dance and the Hainan Cultural Show. I also attended ex- hibitions at the International Arts Gallery, the Vancouver Public Library, the Burnaby Arts Council and the Crystal Mall. Finally, along with all of these great cultural events this summer, I had the honour of participating in Burnaby's largest traditional event, the Hats Off Day, and the well- attended Multicultural Days at the Bonsor Senior Centre. THE ART STUDIOS AND COMMUNITY-BASED MENTAL HEALTH PROGRAMS M. Elmore: I'll be speaking about the value of community-based mental health services, the Vancouver Art Studios.

Today I'm pleased to announce that mem- bers and advocates of a very valuable community mental health program in my riding achieved a partial victory. An anonymous private donor has stepped forward and will be funding the Art Studios until May 2014. Th e Art Studios is a nationally recognized, community- based mental health organization that has peer-based in- structors who are also among its 600 members with various mental health issues. Th e studios off er art therapy 321

British Columbia Debates322 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 programs that feature painting and pottery classes. Th ey produce beautiful work, and they have regular exhibits where they sell the art work they've created. I'd like to congratulate everyone who passionately spoke up, organized and rallied to keep this critical pro- gram going. Th ey recognize and appreciate, as we should all, the importance of community-based mental health services and the urgent need for long-term funding. [1340] Community-based health services are more accessible to people living with severe mental disabilities.

Th ey're more eff ective than institutions in taking care of their needs. Th ey're better able to rehabilitate long-stay hos- pital patients. Th ey can implement anti-stigma programs, and they ensure the full participation and integration of people with mental disorders in the community where they live. Th ese services are recovery-oriented, and they allow people living with mental illness to live productive and meaningful lives. Th ey provide the least restrictive form of care as close to home as possible. Th ey foster social inclusion through the support they also give to friends and family.

At the Art Studios and other similar programs, indi- viduals with a psychiatric disability are not defi ned by their disability or illness. Th ey are recognized for their strengths, and they have access to resources that allow them to defi ne and live the lives they want, to the best of their abilities. Community-based services save money. Th ey provide mutual support, a sense of belonging for the clients, their families and providers. And they allow for the sharing of information that benefi ts the folks they serve.

According to one member, the Art Studios kept her out of the hospital, kept her from relapsing and kept her from addiction. It was a safe place, a second home, and she was accepted there. She says that next to her doctor's offi ce, it was the only other place where she could leave the house for, because it was a safe place to paint. It gave her ongoing therapy behind the doctors and the people she was inspired by. Funding must be restored to the Art Studios and other community-based mental health services. Th e lives of their members and the well-being of our communities depend on it.

CHILLIW ACK MUNICIPAL AIRPORT COFFEE SHOP PIE SALES AND FUNDRAISING J. Martin: While this House has a long and rich history and tradition — being home to vigorous debate and in- formed, respectful disagreement — there are some things we can all agree on. One of those shared commonalities, I believe, is that we all love pie, right? So "I fl y for pie." "I fl y for pie." Th at's the slogan posted right outside the Chilliwack Municipal Airport, which is just down the street from my constituency offi ce. Th ere three sisters — Judi, Jacqueline and Tracey Good — own and operate the Airport Coff ee Shop.

Now, this isn't just any coff ee shop. Th is is a Fraser Valley institution with a loyal fol- lowing throughout the province and beyond, and it has a reputation for serving up the best pies found anywhere. What was once a tightly guarded little secret among short-haul pilots and locals is now one of the must-see attractions for anyone coming to the east Fraser Valley. Lately there has been a lot more than just pie crust–raising at the Airport Coff ee Shop. On June 25, through word of mouth and local media, the Airport Coff ee Shop hosted their third annual Pie Day fundraiser.

It was advertised that all proceeds from pie sales on that day would be sent directly to the Terry Fox Foundation in memory of Betty Fox, a longtime Chilliwack resi- dent who recently passed away and was a great friend of Jacqueline Good, one of the owner-operators. Over 30 varieties of pie were off ered on the menu. Due to the tremendous support of the Chilliwack community and supporters, in one day this small little Airport Coff ee Shop with one single oven sold more than 330 slices of pie and 216 whole pies to raise a total of $5,445, all of it donated to cancer research.

I would ask all members in this House to please ac- knowledge this undertaking. And anytime anyone in this House — including yourself, Madame Speaker — is trav- elling through or to Chilliwack, please give me a heads- up, and I will treat you to a slice of the best pie you are ever going to have. AGRICULTURAL LAND IN PEACE RIVER AREA N.

Simons: Today I'd like to talk about the Peace River Valley in northeastern British Columbia, home to First Nations since time immemorial, home of the fi rst permanent non-native settlement in British Columbia and home to a thriving oil and gas sector that helps fuel our beautiful province's economy. Th e Peace is also home to vast amounts of agricultural land, including the only class 1 land north of Quesnel. About 6,500 hectares of that land could be alienated from agricultural production if the Site C dam is built for LNG production.

Not all of that land is good agricultural land, but over 2,500 hectares is classifi ed as class 1 and 2. When we real- ize that the entire province's land mass includes just over 1 percent of this classifi cation, it underscores our respon- sibility as public policymakers to proceed with land use decisions, not just in our own interests but in our grand- children's and their grandchildren's interests. [1345] Th ere might be more lucrative uses for this land, more popular uses and even some other necessary uses. But our overriding principle should be that land that can grow

British Columbia DebatesWednesday, July 10, 2013 323 food should be preserved to grow food, especially when that land is scarce. In this House we talk a lot about how much something is worth in dollars, how many jobs can be created and how we can keep life aff ordable for families. All of these are laudable goals. But according to climate scientists whose biggest challenge is fl at-earth and slow-moving politicians, we need to think about how future genera- tions will be able to feed themselves in a dramatically dif- ferent and changing climate.

We need to listen to the science and base our land use decisions on what will best serve the interests and needs of future generations, not just short-term political goals. I hope that protecting our water and our soil will be on the top of every politician's list of priorities. BLUEBERRIES S. Gibson: I wish I could have a prop here. Apparently, props are not allowed, but if I had a prop here, it would be a little blueberry right here, because I'm talking a little bit about blueberries. Y ou can make a pie with blueberries.

Summertime is blueberry time in the Fraser Valley, and Abbotsford-Mission is probably one of the number one communities for blueberries. We're very proud of them. Th ere are 800 blueberry growers around the Fraser Valley and 27,000 acres in production. Pitt Meadows is a fabulous area for blueberries. One of the cool things about blueberries is they are very good for you. Th ey help reduce the problems of aging. Anybody have that problem here? We also have antioxidants in blueberries — very useful today to limit some of the characteristics of cancer. I want to caution you, however.

When you go to buy a product in the store — a waffl e, a muffi n — simulated blueberries. Beware. Do not buy anything with simulat- ed blueberries. Y ou can enjoy blueberries all year around by putting them on a cookie dish. Spread them out and freeze them, and then take them out and use them all year around. Abbotsford-Mission is the most fabulous area for blue- berries. I encourage you: come on out and see us, hon. Speaker. We'll host you, and we'll give you a delicious treat of the fi nest blueberries in Canada. LOCAL CORNER STORES AND McGILL GROCERY IN V ANCOUVER S.

Simpson: Many of us will recall the corner grocery store in our neighbourhood. Th ose stores are truly local, both in ownership and design. While there are fewer of them around today than there used to be, they are still an important local institution that refl ects a neighbourhood and are oft en a saviour when you need that last-minute snack or ingredient for dinner. I have such a store in my community, the McGill Grocery, which has been owned and operated by the Mah family since 1977. It was started by Fook Wai Mah, known as George in English, and his wife, Oy Hee Mah, known to her friends as Hee.

Th ey raised fi ve children — Marianne, Helen, Peter, Charles and Harry — in their home that was attached to the store. Th e McGill Grocery continues to thrive today, now operated by Mr. Mah's three sons. For 36 years the McGill Grocery has been a Burrardview cornerstone, meeting people's needs in terms of food and other goods. But more importantly, it has played a critical role for infor- mation dissemination, as a gathering place and a hub for what happens in the community.

Th is includes being a centre for the Christmas lights competition and, through Harry's leadership, in the Burrardview Community Association. Sadly, we recently lost the patriarch of the Mah family. Fook Wai Mah passed away aft er a lengthy illness. Having arrived from China in 1952, Mr. Mah worked numer- ous jobs until he could bring his wife to Canada in 1957, and 20 years later they acquired the McGill Grocery. Our community shares in the family's personal loss.

Equally, we mourn the loss of a true pillar of our neighbourhood who for 36 years, along with his wife, Hee, provided leadership through their belief in our community as a place to run their business and raise their family. Th ank you, Mr. Mah, for all you contributed to our community. We're truly fortunate that the traditions and legacy of the McGill Grocery will continue through the eff orts of your sons, Harry, Charles and Peter. [1350] Oral Questions DRUG REVIEW PROCESS FOR CHAMPIX M. Farnworth: My question is for the Minister of Health.

It's well established that you need to monitor drugs aft er they are prescribed in signifi cant numbers to determine their actual level of safety for patients — drugs like Champix. It is now being prescribed to over 40,000 British Columbians. One of your predecessors, Kevin Falcon, recognized this and in 2010 retained the therapeutics initiative to do just this kind of research. Y esterday this Legislature learned that this government, on the same day a class ac- tion suit was certifi ed by patients over Champix, blocked the therapeutics initiative from doing this kind of drug safety evaluation.

Will the minister put patient safety fi rst and assign the therapeutics initiative the job to conduct a real-world safety-and-eff ectiveness study of Champix and B.C.'s smoking cessation program? Hon. T. Lake: Th anks to the member opposite for giv- ing me the opportunity to put on the record some facts.

British Columbia Debates324 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 Here are the facts. Th ere was a research proposal that the ministry re- ceived in June 2012 from the therapeutics initiative, and that proposal was to examine the eff ectiveness of the smoking cessation program and the eff ectiveness and safety of Champix compared to other smoking cessation medications.

A working group responsible for reviewing pharmaceutical research proposals, made up of civil ser- vants in the Ministry of Health, decided not to support this specifi c proposal for Champix, although two other proposals with benzodiazepines and opioids were ap- proved for the therapeutics initiative. At the time this decision was made, the ministry had already requested a diff erent but related research project examining the safety and eff ectiveness of smoking ces- sation drugs, including Champix. Th at is being done by the Canadian Institute for Health Information's Drug Safety and Eff ectiveness Network.

Th e project was fi rst proposed by the ministry in August 2011, long before the other research proposal was received. Th e research by University of Y ork is expected to be completed later this year, and we look forward to those results. Madame Speaker: Member for Port Coquitlam on a supplemental. M. Farnworth: Th e research proposal that the minis- ter talks about is not a comprehensive, real-world study of Champix amongst the 40,000 people who are cur- rently taking it. It is a review of existing studies and lit- erature. It's not the research that monitors the eff ect that Champix is having.

Th at's the kind of work that the therapeutics initia- tive was proposing. And it's the kind of work that, if the Canadian Institutes of Health Research were doing…. Guess who would be doing it. Th e therapeutics initiative. Th at's what they were set up to do: to perform large-scale, real-time drug safety evaluations of drugs, like Champix, for British Columbia. Th ere are rising concerns that Champix causes suicide and self-harm, and these concerns about its questions must be addressed. Will the minister do the right thing?

Will he ask the therapeutics initiative to conduct what was originally proposed — a large-scale, real-world study that deter- mines the eff ects Champix is having on thousands of British Columbians? Hon. T. Lake: Th ere is a process, and I know mem- bers on the opposite side of the House do not like pro- cess. Th ey think that ministers should get involved and decide public policy on the fl y. Th ese were professional public servants, whose job it is to evaluate proposals as they come forward. Th ey ap- proved two proposals.

One was not approved because, in fact, a study had already been requested through the Canadian Institute of Health Information's Drug Safety and Eff ectiveness Network. It will look into the safety and eff ectiveness of this drug. We look forward to the results of that later this year, as we fully evaluate the smoking cessation program we have here, which has made many lives better here in British Columbia. [1355] Madame Speaker: Member for Port Coquitlam on a supplemental. M. Farnworth: I do indeed have a supplemental. I thank the minister for his comments.

But I would also note that the Premier has never stopped herself from get- ting involved or making decisions around public policy over civil servants. Th e kind of work that the Canadian Institutes of Health Research needs to do is not just the review of literature, not just a review of studies, but it's to look at the eff ects on real people, in real populations, as they actually use the drug. If you go to their website, they will tell you just that.

It states very clearly: "More information is needed on the safety and eff ectiveness of pharmaceuticals when used by diverse patient populations outside the controlled experi- mental environment of clinical trials." That is what the therapeutics initiative, which was CIHR's lead agency in this province, was proposing to do with Champix. Th at was their job. It was recognized by Kevin Falcon as what they should be doing. Madame Speaker: Member, do you have a question? M. Farnworth: It was blocked, plain and simple.

So the question, again, to the minister is: will the minister ask the therapeutics initiative to do the job it was assigned to do by Kevin Falcon, the job CIHR would expect it to do — which is to do a proper, thorough, real-time review on the people in this province who are actually using the drug? Hon. T. Lake: I would remind the member that this drug is used in six diff erent provinces. It has been ap- proved by Health Canada through the common drug review. It has been through the provincial process and been thoroughly vetted.

We are now engaged in a study, through the Canadian health information Drug Safety and Eff ectiveness Network, to determine the eff ective- ness and the safety of this drug. Now, I am not a medical researcher. I don't think the member opposite is either. Th ese are professional public servants that decide on the best course of action to ensure the safety of the patients here in British Columbia and the eff ectiveness of our programs. We actually believe in the professional public servants in this province, and we stand by their decision.

British Columbia DebatesWednesday, July 10, 2013 325 DRUG REVIEW PROCESS AND ROLE OF THERAPEUTICS INITIATIVE J. Darcy: Th e Minister of Health says that professional public servants should make this decision. But I would remind the Minister of Health that the Premier herself was quoted on Th e Bill Good Show in April, on CKNW .

When asked specifi cally about why her government had cut the funding for therapeutics initiative, she responded in response to this very direct question: "We're trying to make sure that we're managing the cost of drugs as best as we can and respecting the private sector at the same time." Th at's what the Premier said. But there are other drugs that need to be evaluated, in addition to Champix — other drugs that have been pre- scribed to thousands of British Columbians. Drugs like Accutane, to determine its role in causing birth defects, among other side eff ects….

Th is is a drug that is already the subject of class action lawsuits, and its manufacturer has already had to pay out millions of dollars. Kevin Falcon made therapeutics initiative responsible for conducting this kind of research. But TI is currently blocked from answering questions about Accutane's side eff ects, especially in the wake of the Premier cutting off its funding to serve the private interests of pharmaceut- ical companies. Will the minister re-establish therapeutics initiative's role as B.C.'s drug watchdog — yes or no? [1400] Hon. T.

Lake: As I mentioned yesterday, British Columbia reviewed the drug approval process in this province through a Pharmaceutical Task Force. Th e task force came up with recommendations. Th ey were fully accepted by Health Minister George Abbott at the time. Th at process includes a request for proposals for research- ers to conduct clinical evidence reviews of new drugs, to expand the pool of researchers. Th e therapeutics initiative does good work, but they are not the only ones doing good work. We wanted to reach out to the broader research community, and we accepted those recommendations.

We have a very safe, eff ective and timely approval pro- cess in the province of British Columbia. Madame Speaker: Member for New Westminster on a supplemental. J. Darcy: Surely, the Minister of Health would agree that patient safety should be the overall priority concern when we're evaluating these drugs — not political con- cerns. Surely, the Minister of Health believes that. Th ere are also mounting concerns that potent blood thinners like dabigatran may be responsible for serious fatalities and hospitalization due to uncontrollable bleed- ing.

TI was planning to investigate this very drug, but now it can't because of how the government is treating it. It is crippling the ability of therapeutics initiative to do research, and the Premier has cut off its funding to serve the interests of brand-name pharmaceutical companies. She said as much on Th e Bill Good Show in April. Again, to the minister, my question is: will this gov- ernment re-establish the world-renowned therapeutics initiative as B.C.'s independent drug researcher — yes or no? Hon. T. Lake: We absolutely believe that patient health and patient safety is important.

Th at's why we wanted to address the timeliness of getting new medications to pa- tients who could benefi t. Could you imagine someone in your family needing a groundbreaking drug and waiting 2½ years to have ap- proval to use the drug that you knew could make your family member better? Th at was one of the problems ad- dressed through the task force review. We have great researchers here in British Columbia, some of whom work for the therapeutics initiative. But we also have people like Dr. Colin Dormuth, Dr. Bruce Carleton, Dr.

Michael Hayden — UBC researchers who happen to work for the Drug Safety and Eff ectiveness Network, who are capable of doing this type of research. Th at's what we are waiting for. We will use that informa- tion to inform decisions going forward. B.C. PAVCO LEASE AGREEMENT WITH PARAGON GAMING S. Simpson: On April 25 the then chair of the Pavilion Corporation, now the Minister of Education, told the CBC that in fact PavCo had signed a 99-year lease agree- ment with Paragon Gaming. Th e same minister then, about a week later on May 3, told CKNW ….

He back- pedalled from the position and told CKNW that right now there is nothing in place. Today on the Paragon website Paragon is saying they have a 70-year agreement signed between themselves and PavCo and that they in fact signed that agreement in March, well in advance of the comments on both oc- casions by the Minister of Education. My question is to the minister responsible for the Pavilion Corporation. Can he clear the matter up? Can he tell us what the truth is here?

Is it the minister's fi rst comments about a 99-year lease, is it his second com- ment about no agreement, or is it Paragon's comment about a 70-year lease? Hon. T. Stone: I would like to thank the member op- posite for the question. [1405] As I think the member knows well, the development of land west of B.C. Place has always been part of the overall revitalization plan at PavCo. In 2011 there was

British Columbia Debates326 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 an extensive consultation process. Th e city of Vancouver approved the relocation of the existing Edgewater Casino under the existing gaming licence. PavCo is expected to receive revenue from the lease of land for this develop- ment once it has been completed. Again, to reiterate, the development of those lands is a critical piece of the revitalization plan, moving forward. Madame Speaker: The member for Vancouver- Hastings on a supplemental. S.

Simpson: I'd note that the minister, somewhere in that answer, didn't provide any direction or clarity to the question that was presented. Th e issue is this. Th ere have been signifi cant discrepan- cies in terms of what the public is hearing. Th ey're hear- ing two messages: from the Minister of Education when he was the chair of PavCo and a message from Paragon, all of which are somewhat diff erent. Th at's not acceptable, particularly on a project like this, which the minister will know was very controversial and led to the city rejecting the expanded facility there.

We also know from the Paragon site, apparently, that the amount of revenue coming back is to be half of what was originally anticipated on this site. People have a right to know what the situation is. My question to the minister responsible for PavCo: will he clear up this mess, and will he release the terms and conditions of the agreement between PavCo and Paragon so that people know what they're dealing with? Hon. T. Stone: Well, one thing I will clearly state on the record is that this government is very proud of the re- vitalization that has taken place at B.C. Place. B.C. Place opened on time and on budget.

In fact, it was actually $49 million under budget. Th e new stadium is expected to generate an additional $100 million per year of eco- nomic activity right here in British Columbia. But back to the question. In 2011, aft er extensive con- sultations, it was the city of Vancouver that approved the relocation of the existing Edgewater Casino under the existing gaming licence, and PavCo has no responsibility for the operation of the proposed entertainment complex. J. Horgan: I would like to direct my questions back to the same minister.

I know we've got a big Telus sign in a warehouse somewhere, but maybe we can get the B.C. Liberal bus and put "debt-free" in front of the Pavilion Corporation, because it's clearly not on time and not on budget. Again, to the minister, could he please clear the air and say to the people of British Columbia who is going to pay for that massive overrun at the Pavilion Corporation? Is it going to be Paragon over a 70-year period? Over a 90-year period? Or are taxpayers going to pay the whole bill again? Hon. T. Stone: Well, if it was up to the members of the opposition, there would be no B.C.

Place; there would be no opportunity to generate an extra $100 million into the B.C. economy. Th e renovation of B.C. Place was concluded $49 mil- lion under budget. Th e members opposite may not like to deal in the facts on this, but this renovation has enabled B.C. Place to become more than a sports facility. It's now an entertainment complex, and it attracts the likes of Paul McCartney and Taylor Swift . Th is generates hundreds of thousands of new economic opportunity, not just in Vancouver but across British Columbia. [1410] KITW ANGA MILL OPERATIONS AND TIMBER SUPPLY D.

Donaldson: The Kitwanga Lumber sawmill is struggling to reopen. Th at's the mill in the northwest that Premier Clark used for a photo op when it started up but was nowhere to be found when the workers got their pink slips when the mill was shuttered a few months later. Just last month a new mill owner was ready to restart oper- ations, but he had to delay because he couldn't fi nd logs. Forty to 50 jobs were left hanging, a big number for the neighbouring First Nations communities. At precisely the same time, this government granted timber sales for raw log exports from sites just kilometres from the mill.

It's almost beyond belief. Can the Deputy Premier explain why his government continues to pro- mote this shortsighted, job-killing approach to forest management? Hon. M. de Jong: Notwithstanding the protest the Deputy Premier will off er, I'll take the question on notice on behalf of the Forests Minister. Madame Speaker: Member for Stikine with a diff er- ent question. TIMBER SUPPLY AND FOREST INDUSTRY JOBS IN KITW ANGA AREA D. Donaldson: Y es, I have another question — this time for the Jobs Minister.

People in Kitwanga valley, people in Gitanyow, people in Gitwangak are watching trucks go by with raw logs exported from sites within kilometres of this mill. Th e problem is that this Liberal government forest policy is preventing the mill from get- ting all the wood it needs. Th e mill employs mostly workers from Gitanyow and Gitxsan First Nations. Th ose communities rely on near- by natural resources to create economic activity, but the minister's decision to give away the wood means there is great uncertainty about mill jobs in Kitwanga in the future.

British Columbia DebatesWednesday, July 10, 2013 327 Again, to the Minister of Jobs, can she explain why her government is starving this B.C. mill in favour of export- ing raw logs at the cost of jobs? Hon. S. Bond: One thing we know on this side of the House is that we've worked very hard to increase and cre- ate certainty in the economic climate in British Columbia to attract investment. And what we're seeing is a revital- ized forest industry in British Columbia…. Interjections. Hon. S.

Bond: One of the things that's absolutely critical to us as we look at the future and see the poten- tial for over a million job openings by 2020…. It is critical to us that First Nations in British Columbia, and British Columbians, are at the front of that lineup. We're going to continue to work constructively and fi nd ways to en- courage and support First Nations communities and en- sure they are part of the job future in British Columbia. V ANCOUVER COASTAL HEALTH AUTHORITY NEWBORN HOTLINE SERVICE M.

Elmore: In an attempt to balance the budget at all costs, the government has planned a wave of devastat- ing cuts and fee hikes. We learned about the wheelchair tax just days aft er the election, and now we learn that Vancouver Coastal Health will cut the newborn hotline, a valuable service that provides parents with specialized support and information on their infants' health. Will the minister reverse the decision and commit to parents in Vancouver and Richmond that the newborn hotline will still be answered aft er July? Hon. T.

Lake: HealthLink B.C. is a service off ered 24 hours a day, seven days a week — 811 by telephone, a very comprehensive webpage. People all over British Columbia have access to dietitians, to nurses, to get infor- mation. Especially, expectant mothers and new mothers can access that not just here and Vancouver but all over the province of British Columbia 24 hours a day, seven days a week. [1415] Madame Speaker: Member for Vancouver-Kensington on a supplemental. M. Elmore: Just a news fl ash for the minister.

If he's talked to any families who have newborns who try and access the newborn hotline, the distinction is that they off er a specialized service, nurses who are trained in in- fant and toddler care — a specialty and expertise that is not available in those other good services that he men- tioned. Th is hotline is a specialized service that provides new parents with essential information to keep infants safe. In many cases this service prevents unnecessary emergency room visits by helping families manage their newborns' health issues at home.

If the minister won't commit to keeping the service running, will he commit to enhancing the existing 811 nurses hotline to ensure staff receive additional training on maternal and newborn assessments? Hon. T. Lake: I actually believe that the registered pro- fessional nurses that man our HealthLink B.C. line are, in fact, excellently trained and provide a wonderful ser- vice to the people of British Columbia. But not only that. New mothers are still contacted by public health nurses by phone or in person, and public health nurses remain on call throughout Vancouver Coastal Health. And not only that.

On this side of the House we are spending almost $2 million to double the number of midwives here in British Columbia. In fact, midwives were paid just over $19 million to deliver over 6,300 new British Columbians. RECOVERY OF DECEASED PERSONS FROM B.C. W ATERS D. Eby: Y esterday the Minister of Justice gave this House new information about the concerning case of Raymond Salmen, who drowned in Harrison Lake and whose body has not been recovered.

Th e minister told this house that Raymond's case was "in the hands of the coroner." Well, Daniela Salmen, Raymond's widow, called the coroner's offi ce fi rst thing this morning. Th e reception- ist told her there is no entry for Raymond Salmen in the coroner's database, and an analyst with the offi ce told her the coroner is not investigating Raymond's case and that the coroner's offi ce is not involved in her husband's case at all — period.

Will the Minister of Justice clarify her remarks, ac- knowledge that no agency is helping this family and com- mit to fi nd a way to help families recover their loved ones lost in B.C.'s waters? Hon. S. Anton: Th ere have been, as I said yesterday, a number of very unfortunate drowning cases in British Columbia this year, and once again, I would like to cau- tion people, particularly those not familiar with B.C. wat- ers, that they need to wear life jackets. Th ey need to know where they're swimming and where they're boating. Quite a number of drownings.

A number of them are in the hands of the coroner — not all, but some. Th ese are terrible cases. Th ey are very hard on the families in- volved, obviously. I think our hearts go out to all of the families who have lost loved ones and, certainly, our condolences to those families. It's a terrible thing to lose a family member. I

British Columbia Debates328 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 think somehow it seems worse when you're on holiday and it should be a happy time and you have this terrible thing happening. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the RCMP because I think in most of these jurisdictions it is RCMP who are performing these rescues and looking for these bodies. Th ey are putting their own lives at risk, and they are putting their own families at risk. Th ey go above and beyond to try and help these fam- ilies recover these bodies.

Th ere have been a number of successful fi nds of these missing bodies over the course of the summer — including going back again and again, and waiting until the waters go down and waiting until waters are safe to go back and recover these bodies. Th ey have been making eff orts in Harrison Lake on the case that the member opposite is referring to, and they are making eff orts around the province. I don't question the operational decisions of the RCMP . Th ey make those decisions as to when to search. Th ey make the decisions as to when to call off the search, and I think we should all thank them for that. D.

Eby: I'm sure the member didn't mean to be in- sulting to the Salmen family, but Mr. Salmen, the RCMP believe, was injured on land and tried to swim to safety. Th is is not a water safety issue. [1420] Th is is also not a partisan issue. Accurate sonar tech- nology now exists to locate the bodies of loved ones deep in B.C.'s waters — technology that did not exist before. B.C.

Coroners Service spokesperson Barb McLintock told the Prince George Citizen that the Coroners Service believes the underwater sonar technology "would be something the province could really use." She said: "On those few occasions we need it, it would be greatly ap- preciated help." Tragically, as the member noted, we've needed this technology for fi ve cases already this summer. Can the minister please commit to working with the RCMP and the coroner's offi ce to obtain access to this technology to fi nd these British Columbia citizens and put their fam- ilies' minds at rest? Please, Minister. Hon. S.

Anton: It is clearly not a partisan issue, and I am off ended that the member opposite would suggest that. Everybody in this House feels for these families. Everyone in this House feels for the victims and for their families. It is highly…. Y ou know, the member opposite could have easily come to ask the question. It is being made a partisan issue in this House. Th ese are sad circumstances. Th e RCMP are always willing to consider extra meth- ods and extra ways that they can improve themselves. Like most of us, I think, they're always self-critical, self- looking, self-wondering what they can do.

But they do a terrifi c job — helping victims, putting their own lives at risk, putting their own families at risk. I compliment them for what they have done this summer. I'm very, very sorry for the families. I know that the RCMP are always open to looking at new things, and they will be doing that in this case. Th e thought that this is a partisan issue…. It is being raised by the member opposite as a partisan issue, and that's highly off ensive. [End of question period.] Hon. M. de Jong: I seek leave to make an introduction, Madame Speaker. Leave granted. Introductions by Members Hon.

M. de Jong: In the gallery today a young man who used to work as an executive assistant in these pre- cincts, Mark Grant, is here. I hope the House will make him feel welcome. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: Madame Speaker, I call Committee of Supply — for the information of members, in Committee B, the estimates of Children and Families; and in Committee A, the estimates for the Ministry of Environment. [1425] Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF CHILDREN AND FAMILY DEVELOPMENT Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. Chouhan in the chair. Th e committee met at 2:26 p.m.

On Vote 16: ministry operations, $1,345,039,000. Hon. S. Cadieux: Just before we get started, I'll intro- duce the staff that are with me here today. Beside me is Mark Sieben, my deputy minister. Behind me is Doug Hughes, ADM, provincial director of child welfare. Anne Sandbu is ADM of fi nance and corporate services. Bev Dicks is ADM of service delivery. Others will come and go as we need them, but I'll introduce them when they're here. I am delighted to be able to continue serving in this ministry and to have responsibility for the Children and Family Development programs and improving those ser- vices.

I'm happy to get started with questions.

British Columbia DebatesWednesday, July 10, 2013 329 C. James: Th ank you to the minister. Th ank you to staff who are here for our estimates process. Congratulations to the minister for coming back to this portfolio. I cer- tainly am just as thrilled to take on the critic role for this area. I can't think of anything that is more critical that government does than look aft er the most vulnerable children and youth in our province. We will talk, I'm sure, as we go through estimates, about core review and a discussion around core review.

But for me, nothing is more core to the role of govern- ment and fundamental to the role of government than ensuring that we look aft er children and families. So I look forward to our discussion and look forward to our future work. Just to start off with some general budget questions, if we may, Minister. Could the minister confi rm that the June budget update is exactly the same as the one that was tabled in February of this year? Hon. S. Cadieux: Y es, it's the same. C.

James: Does the minister feel that this budget is suffi cient for the kinds of services that she believes need to be provided in the Ministry of Children and Families? Hon. S. Cadieux: Resources are always going to be both a challenge and a priority for this ministry at the same time. Delivering on the services that we provide to children and families are, as you mentioned in your state- ment, the utmost priority for government. I am confi dent we'll be able to deliver those well. C. James: I'm sure we'll have a further discussion around the pressures that I believe are going to be faced in this ministry.

Just continuing on with some basic budget ques- tions, could the minister tell us if this ministry received Treasury Board approval for access to the "Contingencies and new programs" vote? If so, what programs were funded through that route? [1430] Hon. S. Cadieux: To clarify, there's no access to con- tingencies granted to the ministry.

Th ere are budget in- creases — $878,000 for the provincial offi ce of domestic violence, $5 million for caseload pressures for children and youth with special needs and $6.1 million to support the early-years strategy with the early childhood develop- ment and child care services. C. James: Could the minister tell me if there've been any freezes put in place for spending in the ministry. And if so, in what area? Hon. S. Cadieux: No, there are no freezes. C. James: Have any grants to organizations or any con- tracts been cut from this ministry? Hon. S. Cadieux: Nothing related to the budget, no. C.

James: Are there any existing programs or fund- ing or specifi c service delivery areas that the minister or the ministry has targeted for review under core review? Hon. S. Cadieux: No, nothing specifi c. C. James: Have there been funds received in this min- istry from other sources outside of the provincial gov- ernment? [1435] Hon. S.

Cadieux: Th e ministry receives a number of recoveries from a number of sources from within govern- ment as a whole — from the Ministry of Health, related to psychiatric services; and a number of federal govern- ment things, like child disability benefi t, universal child care benefi t or Justice Canada funding. C. James: Could the minister tell us the number of FTEs that are currently working in the ministry? Hon. S. Cadieux: We don't actually count FTEs in the ministry. We count staff from year to year. Th is year the number of staff is 4,648. C. James: Can the minister tell us how that compares to last year?

Hon. S. Cadieux: Th at is a very slight decrease of 2 percent — 89 fewer people. C. James: And could the minister tell us how many FTEs there are in the minister's offi ce — specifi cally in the minister's offi ce — and the comparison to last year? Y es, the minister herself 's offi ce. Hon. S. Cadieux: Sorry. It's a little confusing having not had this ministry for estimates last year — fi guring out people. I think it's six, a change of 0.5. Last year was 5.5 in this ministry. But if I am wrong, I will correct that for you. C. James: Th ank you to the minister.

If there are num- bers such as that that you want to get back to us, or get back to us with a list…. I don't need names of staff , but if you want to get back with a list of the staff positions and the titles, that's fi ne as well. How is the hiring freeze impacting this ministry? [1440] Hon. S. Cadieux: When the hiring freeze was imple-

British Columbia Debates330 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 mented, we obtained approval for continuing to hire in this ministry for critical front-line services and to main- tain our staffi ng levels in those areas. We have managed our staffi ng and have permanent reductions in place in the provincial offi ce and in corporate services though. C. James: Just so I'm clear. Th ere is an exemption, then, for front-line staff around the freeze in this ministry? Hon. S. Cadieux: Y es, we have authority to continue to hire to fi ll front-line programs. C.

James: I'll come back and talk a little bit about case- load a little bit later. I'd like to get into a little more detail around the freeze and what it means by front-line work- ers, because I think there are some concerns that we're certainly hearing out in the fi eld. I'll get to that in part of our discussion. Just continuing on with the structure of the minister's offi ce. Could you let us know how much was spent for travel by the minister's offi ce last year, for minister and staff in the minister's offi ce, and how much is budgeted for this coming year? Hon. S.

Cadieux: Last year there was spending of $34,000 on travel; budgeted for this year is $56,000. C. James: Could the minister just explain the diff er- ence and why the anticipation is for the increase in the travel budget? Hon. S. Cadieux: Th e budget for last year was actual- ly $64,000. We only spent $34,000, so we've reduced the budget this year to $56,000. It is an area we are continu- ing to manage as effi ciently as we can. C. James: Could the minister tell us what the advertis- ing budget is anticipated to be for this coming year and how much it was last year? Again, a comparison between the two years. Hon.

S. Cadieux: Th ere's no advertising budget. All of the government advertising is managed through govern- ment communications. C. James: Th at includes non-essential, or that includes essential advertising — so things that are required statu- torily? Th ere's no budget held in the Ministry of Children and Families for that? Hon. S. Cadieux: Again, we don't have a line item for advertising. It is all done centrally. If you have a more specifi c example, we could try to answer that. C.

James: I was thinking of things like adoption, when there's advertising that's going out around adoption or a particular week — child care week, for example, or Child Care Month — that occurs in the province. Th at's the kind of advertising that I think of as essential, non- political advertising. [1445] I just wondered whether there's a budget within the ministry for that kind of advertising. Hon. S. Cadieux: No, all of that is done centrally. Th ere may be some done additionally through contracted agencies, but it is not directed by us. C.

James: Th is comes back to the earlier question I asked the minister about the budget, whether the budget would be suffi cient for the kinds of services that are going to be provided.

In the minister's own service plan it states: "Th e child and youth population of British Columbia is forecasted to gradually increase each year, producing a greater demand for services." I'd just like the minister to spend a little bit of time talking about how, basically, the status quo budget, over the next three years, that is presented is going to address what her own service plan identifi es as growing pressures in population increase, therefore growing pressures in demand in this ministry. Hon. S.

Cadieux: Demand for services in this ministry, especially with a young population but also with increas- ing challenges for some of the population that we serve, is going to forever be a challenge. Th ere will always be more desired services than we are able to provide. Th at said, we've done a good job so far in being able to look, through processes like lean and others, for better ways to deliver services that we do deliver and to look for effi - ciencies and ways that we can streamline what we do to make sure that the most dollars are going to the front line.

Th ere are some programs that have no wait-list — for example, autism. So regardless of whether or not…. As long as the demand is there, we will provide the dollars. Similarly for foster care — we have a responsibility to provide that. It's up to us to fi nd a way to do it the best way we can, and I am confi dent that we can do that. C. James: I understand the pressures and understand, certainly, the demand that will always be there. I'd agree. Th ere will always be requests for more services.

But I think the minister herself has raised a couple of very specifi c areas where there is a statutory requirement to provide the support. When it comes to children who are taken into care, the ministry isn't able to say: "We're sorry. We've run out of our budget. We're not able to pro- vide that kind of care." Similarly, as the minister herself mentioned, the issue of autism funding, where there isn't a wait-list. Th erefore, as children are diagnosed and come in — and we'll get into a little more discussion about that later — those pres-

British Columbia DebatesWednesday, July 10, 2013 331 sures increase. Th en the population mention that was in the minister's own service plan, where it identifi ed that population, the youth population, was also growing. Th ose are givens when it comes to a budget. [1450] I'd just like to ask the minister…. I understand the issue of looking for effi ciencies in existing service.

But has the minister had discussions within the ministry about those growing pressures that are known — the population increase, the demand increase — and how that is going to be managed within the fl atline budget over the next three years? I guess the basic question is: does the minister believe that she will be able to balance her budget? Hon. S. Cadieux: I am committed to balancing the budget for this ministry. Th at said, balancing the budget will be a challenge in this ministry. Th ere is no question.

Th at again follows, though, that my priority is the ser- vices that we deliver directly to families and children. Th ose will always come fi rst. Our commitment, I think, in terms of being able to meet demand is clear in that we have added additional dollars to the CYSN budget this year to meet those needs. We're investing new dollars this year in the early years, with the recognition that there is more work to do there, certainly.

As it relates to foster care, new approaches within the ministry — and how we work with families who may be experiencing diffi culties earlier with our family approaches — we're seeing great results, and we're not seeing an increase in the number of children com- ing into care. C. James: Both in the service plan and obviously in the letter of expectations to the minister from the Premier it was very clear that balancing the budget is one of the top priorities.

Has the minister had those conversations with the Premier about the cost pressures in this ministry, the challenges of providing support in this ministry and how that will be balanced with the Premier's expectations for the minister of balancing the budget, as is the expecta- tion across ministries? Hon. S. Cadieux: As I said before, the challenges of meeting the budget in this ministry are real. It will take diligent work, but I'm confi dent in the staff in the min- istry and in our ability to do that.

Of course, as minis- ter, I am responsible for making the rest of government also aware of the issues facing the ministry and where we need to be providing services and perhaps changing what we do or doing more of something. Th at's my job, and it's my job to balance those needs, as they arise, with the need to balance the budget. C.

James: I'm pleased to hear the minister say that she sees part of her role as being the advocate for the ministry and an advocate for children and families, because I think it's been a long period of time since we've had a strong voice, and I think certainly this ministry, in particular, is in need of that.

I would hope that that voice will be strong, because I think there will be some challenges as we move along, based on the pressures that we've talked about but I'm sure more that we'll talk about as we go through estimates. [1455] Th e minister mentioned various areas that had an in- crease in this budget, but there is one area of the budget that actually is higher based on the 2012-13 budget, and that's the executive support services. Th e 2012 service plan listed that budget as $14.9 million for the 2012-13 service plan, and then in this year's service plan that's listed as $18 million.

I'd just like to ask the minister…. It may be related to ICM. Th at's what I suspect, but I won- der if the minister could let us know where that lift is, compared to the 2012-13 service plan. Hon. S. Cadieux: Y es, that was the additional support provided to front-line staff in responding to the chal- lenges they are facing with ICM implementation — but also implementation of practice changes that I'm sure you're well aware were underway in the ministry. C. James: Could the minister tell me, then, where the divide is in that amount of increase? Did it all go direct- ly to front-line staff training?

Was a portion of that allo- cated to ICM training? Was a portion of that allocated to practice training? Where is the discrepancy between the increase that occurred? [1500] Hon. S. Cadieux: We didn't manage it discretely into pockets. Some of it was for additional staff on the front line, to support our front-line staff while they were learn- ing the new system; some of it was training; some was travel for that purpose. So it was managed globally, as was the fi nding of the administrative savings to cover it. C.

James: I understand you didn't divide it up into which area it went into, but you said it went into front- line staff . Could the minister tell us: was all of that, then, spent on front-line staff training? Was some of it spent centrally, in the ministry itself, as well, or did it all go into direct front-line staff ? Hon. S. Cadieux: All of the work done there was around child protection, so it was all of the child protec- tion managers and staff that were trained. C. James: Just so I'm clear, it was used for child pro- tection training, then, not for ICM? Or was part of that ICM training as well?

British Columbia Debates332 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 Hon. S. Cadieux: Th e training was around both child protection practice and how that interfaced with ICM as well. C. James: I'm sure we'll get into more discussion around ICM as we get further along in estimates. Th ere are a number of questions to be raised around ICM, so I'll leave this one for now and come back to that issue when we get into a discussion around ICM. Could the minister tell me…? I understand, when I asked around the staffi ng numbers, that you were saying you don't keep FTEs; you keep numbers.

Does the minis- ter have an account of the number of social workers who are currently employed by MCFD? [1505] Hon. S. Cadieux: Th e number of social workers in 2012 declined slightly from 2,614 to 2,575 — a decline of 1.5 percent or 39 people. In 2012, 202 social workers were hired, so there's a fair amount of turnover. Since March of 2013 we have hired an additional 41 so- cial workers, so we're back at around that same number of 2,614, approximately. Th ere are still about 90 vacancies, of which 56 are currently in various stages of recruitment.

It is where we are using our exemption — to hire those front-line social workers. C. James: : Could the minister let us know what the average caseload is for front-line social workers cur- rently? Hon. S. Cadieux: While we will get that for you, hon. Chair, if you wouldn't mind, I request a fi ve-minute re- cess. Th e committee recessed from 3:06 p.m. to 3:12 p.m. [R. Chouhan in the chair.] Hon. S. Cadieux: Th e question was on the social worker caseloads. Between '11-12 and '12-13 the case- load per child protection worker increased from 20 to 27. M. Elmore: I seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted.

Introductions by Members M. Elmore: I'd like to welcome to the Legislature to- day some friends. Th ey are 60 strong. Th ey are mem- bers of the 1971-72 graduating class and nurses alumni. Th ey are celebrating a reunion here in Vancouver, from Manila Central University, also attended by graduates from 1970 and 1976. I'd like to recognize and appreciate the hard work of the B.C. organizers: Mila DeCastro, Violy Leopoldo, Cecile Mijares, Josie Jose, Tessie Bie, Terry Tiapson.

We're welcoming friends from not only Vancouver and across B.C., but we have alumni from Calgary, Montreal, Toronto, Chicago, California, Texas and Florida, and it's just a great reunion. A very warm welcome to all of you here to the Legislature. I hope you enjoy the rest of your visit in Vancouver, British Columbia. I ask everybody to please give them a very warm welcome. Debate Continued C. James: Could the minister let us know how they track caseloads? Hon. S. Cadieux: Caseloads are tracked through our data management systems.

That said, we know that the average number of families served by social workers has remained relatively stable over the past few years. With the implementation of the new sys- tem, we are tracking data diff erently, and where the old system counted families, the new system counts each event that occurs within a family, which does account for the diff erence. C. James: Just to be clear, is ICM being used right now to track caseloads at all? Hon. S. Cadieux: Y es, that is the system we're using now. [1515] C.

James: I think all of us know that the personal con- nection that a social worker can make with a child or with a youth or with a family has a lot to do with caseload and has a lot to do with numbers and, also, the complexity of the cases that the social worker may have on their case- load — not simply straight numbers but the complexity of the numbers as well. I just wondered if the minister could tell us what kinds of strategies are being looked at in the ministry to lower caseload or to be able to track the complexity of caseload for particular social workers so that those issues can be addressed. Hon. S.

Cadieux: I know that the member opposite would have great experience with the vital work that so- cial workers do, having been a foster parent for so many years, and know how critical the work is that the social workers do. We've a done a caseload review of service levels across the province. As expected, in some of the rural and re- mote communities the caseloads tend to be higher, so we're looking at how best to alleviate that by reassigning

British Columbia DebatesWednesday, July 10, 2013 333 staff to high-need areas, prioritizing and managing work- load with staff . And we did, as I say, hire additional staff during the time when social workers were facing the in- creased pressure of learning the new system. C. James: Th e minister mentioned the additional re- sources that were put in place to be able to help with man- aging the new system that was coming in, as well as the issue of child protection new practices.

Will that money, then, continue to be spent in that particular area, or is that money being looked at as being reallocated some- where else? And will that pressure, then, continue to build in subsequent years? Hon. S. Cadieux: Certainly, there was additional staff added, as we say, during the time we were doing the addi- tional training and work. We are continuing to monitor and do continue to monitor caseloads and the work of our social workers and look at, at any given time, where we need people and how we do that. It's really something we do in a real-time kind of way to address need.

It is not something that we take a look at, at the beginning of the year and say: "Absolutely, we're going to need X or Y ." We address it as the need arises. C. James: Just so I have it clear. The intent, then, from the ministry is to leave those resources in front- line workers and then to reallocate those workers, de- pending on the needs that the ministry sees as the year goes on? [1520] Hon. S. Cadieux: Y es, the member is correct. Th e majority of the staff that were hired on a short term remain in place.

Managers are actively looking at all times to reassign or redeploy staff to the areas of high- est need. Our strength in clinical supervison supports the team leaders in trying to best prioritize and man- age that workload. As I mentioned, we do have a num- ber of vacancies that we are actively trying to fi ll on the front lines. C. James: Could the minister tell us: are there specif- ic…? The minister mentioned rural communities — again, no surprise, having worked in rural communities in the area of child welfare — as one of the areas.

Are there specifi c offi ces and particular regions that are hav- ing more diffi culties than others right now and have lar- ger vacancies than others? I wonder if the minister could share that information with us. Hon. S. Cadieux: Y es, there are. More challenges tend to be in the more rural or remote areas, of course, or in other service areas that are more rural or remote service delivery. So the number of places that we are working on actively right now — Prince Rupert, Port Hardy and Princeton areas. C. James: Could the minister tell us, then…? Th e min- ister mentioned that they're working on recruitment.

Are there any specifi c tools or any specifi c strategies that are being used right now by the ministry to look at fi lling those vacant positions that are there — in particular, with an eye to those offi ces that are understaff ed right now? [1525] Hon. S. Cadieux: First of all, we look to redeploy people from other areas where we may have more staff , looking to off er people who are hired as auxiliaries a permanent position in some of these other areas. Our hiring is all coordinated through the PSA.

We're looking at targeted strategies with them to advertise in, for example, Northwest Territories or the Yukon for the north, for people that like the rural lifestyle, knowing that we want people to stay once they come. In addi- tion, we are also working with the School of Social Work on strategies to advertise that we indeed are looking for good people. C.

James: Has the ministry looked at other tools that you certainly see in the health care fi eld and perhaps have been done in the ministry, as well, around student loans — looking at a number of years' service in a remote com- munity or in a rural community and having some of your student loan addressed? Has the ministry looked at those kinds of strategies or examined those kinds of strategies for rural and remote communities? Hon. S. Cadieux: As is similar to the rest of govern- ment in trying to recruit into rural and remote areas, working with the PSA, we are looking at those types of strategies. J.

Rice: Y ou spoke earlier about the communities that have high caseloads — Prince Rupert, Port Hardy, Princeton. Specifi cally, could you let me know how many staff are down in the Prince Rupert offi ce? [1530] Hon. S. Cadieux: To the member: welcome. We don't have it here by individual office or town. What I can tell you is that for the northwest service de- livery area, there are 104.25 FTE positions. Ten are vacant at the moment, and we are recruiting for 11. C.

James: One of the issues we oft en hear, obviously, is from workers who are in offi ces that have less than full complement who are concerned about staffi ng issues and staffi ng levels. One of the areas that we've heard is that the ministry doesn't look at hiring replacements until the ministry offi ce reaches a certain level below service. Ninety-two percent is the rumour that we've heard. Th at

British Columbia Debates334 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 level is set, and the ministry isn't hiring replacements until the complement drops down below 92 percent. I just wanted to check with the minister whether that was accurate or not and whether the ministry looks at any kind of level before they look at hiring replacements. Hon. S. Cadieux: Th ank you, Member, for the ques- tion. We are absolutely not aware of where that number came from. Th at isn't a policy. In fact, we are actively re- cruiting for vacancies whenever they appear.

Th e only thing that might impact that is when we are trying to shift resources from an area that has more staff than re- quired to one that is not. C. James: Good to hear. Th ank you. Just to move on now to an issue that is an issue across government but certainly would have an impact here in the Ministry of Children and Families as well. Th at's the issue of the wage agreement that has been reached with the community social services sector. As we know, the ministry itself has a large portion of its services that are provided by social service agencies, both union and non- union, in the fi eld.

Th e agreement that has been reached has a wage lift for staff . So my question to the minister would be, fi rst off : what's the cost of that wage increase to the ministry itself? [1535] Hon. S. Cadieux: I know that the member opposite will agree with me that the employees in this sector cer- tainly deserve the wage increases that have been negoti- ated. We'll work with the agencies. Th e pressure on this year's budget is estimated to be $8.5 million. C. James: Y es, I couldn't agree more with the minister's comments that this has nothing do with whether a wage increase was deserved or not.

In fact, as many people know, the social services sector is underpaid when it comes to balancing off with other wages. Th ey are lower than many of the government employees providing the same kind of work, providing front-line work. It's a great diffi culty when it comes to recruiting and otherwise for many of those agencies to be able to keep staff . So $8.5 million across the sector from the Ministry of Children and Families is a huge amount of money. My question to the minister would be: how is the wage lift going to be covered? Hon. S.

Cadieux: We have already started reaching out to the agencies individually to let them know that we will be working collaboratively with them to ensure that we can help them fi nd ways of achieving this. As well, in a few weeks the representatives from fund- ing ministries will be working with the employer agen- cies, CCEA and BCACDI — I think that's the acronym — to discuss how to use the cooperative gains framework in this sector, which is a little diff erent, of course, from other areas of government. [1540] We've got this fi scal year to fi nd the savings.

It'll be a challenge, of course, but we're very committed to work- ing with the agencies to ensure that we can assist them in fi nding those without reducing services. C. James: Did the ministry inform the employers when they signed this agreement through CCEA that the ministry would not be providing additional funds to cover this wage increase and that they expected the agen- cies to cover this increase? Hon. S.

Cadieux: Th is ministry has been very clear with our contracted agencies that there were not going to be additional dollars to fund this and that, indeed, we were operating in a cooperative gains framework, where the savings would have to be found within the existing contracts. We are very committed to working with the sector and with the agencies individually to ensure that we do that without impacting services. C. James: I certainly would say that there has been a lack of communication or a communication problem in this particular area, because that is not the impression that the agencies have.

Th at's not the impression that contracted agencies have. Th ey certainly did not believe that they were going to be expected to fund. I'd just like to quote for the minister from a letter from the federation. "Y our proposed plan and process presumes that no additional funding will be provided by the ministry…. If this is the case and funding for wage increases must be found within existing contract budgets, it must be recognized that…this will mean a reduction in service levels….

Most agencies in the sector have already achieved whatever savings they could through internal effi ciencies in order to manage accumulated cost pressures over the last number of years of fl atlined contract funding." Just to come back to the minister's point that the min- istry will work with agencies to fi nd these savings, I think it's very clear that agencies have had to reduce their ser- vice levels, have had to look at reducing any kinds of over- head costs, etc., within existing contracts already because of the fl atline contracts that have happened over the last number of years.

I just ask the minister again: wouldn't the minister agree, then, that agencies that provide services on behalf of the ministry…? If they're expected to fi nd $8.5 mil- lion in their sector, will that not mean cuts in services? [1545] Hon. S. Cadieux: We certainly respect all of the work that the agencies have done to provide services in a dif- fi cult fi scal environment. We are obliged, as a part of this process and with the cooperative gains mandate, to begin by looking at the individual contracts but agree

British Columbia DebatesWednesday, July 10, 2013 335 that much of that work has already been done. More can be done, however, in looking at effi ciencies between agencies and also, most importantly, by looking at the fact that — the ministry itself and across ministries — we oft en have multiple contracts with the same agency. C.

James: I understand that the minister is trying to explain this amount of money, but I don't believe there is an explanation, other than that the agencies are going to see a reduction in services to pay for this wage increase of $8.5 million, which is basically the government cutting programs and services. Even, as the minister describes, contracts that are shared between ministries…. To get rid of one of those to be able to save resources is going to mean a reduction in service, a reduction in supports in the community. I just have to ask again.

Surely the minister doesn't believe that there is $8.5 million worth of extra money in the community social services sector that can be cut with no impact on clients who are receiving the service. Hon. S. Cadieux: We are both obligated and chal- lenged to not reduce services through this process. We don't have to eliminate contracts to do that. Ministries may fi nd the opportunity to fund agencies jointly, or agencies themselves may fi nd ways to share administra- tive operations that will identify savings.

Agreeably, this will be challenging work, but our com- mitment is to not see this end in any reduction in services. C. James: We're already seeing changes. We're already seeing reductions. [1550] Th e Okanagan Boys and Girls Club has already stated that they are "fi nancially unable to fund the wage increas- es without service reductions." In Kelowna the boys and girls club has announced that they're looking at service reductions to be able to try and cope with the wage lift being passed on to contracts. Th e minister talks about effi ciencies within agencies.

I certainly have to say that — having met with social ser- vice agencies over the years that I've lived in my com- munity, including in my role in Social Development as the critic — I have seen effi ciencies already with agencies. I have seen agencies come together. Th at has been a push that the government has made over the last ten years in requiring agencies to look at effi ciencies, to look at com- bining resources, to look at shared services. Th at's exactly what has happened over the last number of years.

I just need to state again and ask the minister again how the agencies are going to be expected, through their contracts…. Th e minister says they're going to work with agencies. How is that going to happen? Ultimately, will the ministry be keeping track of where those savings are coming from in each contract? I expect that we will see reductions in those agencies, in services. It's unfair to the staff , who deserve that wage increase, to be expected to pay for that through reducing services to the clients that they provide support for, but ultimately, these will be cuts to clients, the most vulnerable clients.

Th ese are not extra agencies. Th ese are agencies that provide support to vulnerable clients. To fi nd $8.5 mil- lion in that sector will have a direct impact on clients. I would like to ask the minister how on earth she believes that couldn't happen. Hon. S. Cadieux: As I stated before, we had previously made agencies aware that we were going to work collab- oratively with them. Unfortunately, the diffi culties that the boys and girls club has expressed…. Unfortunately, they did not express that to the ministry.

As soon as we were made aware of that, we immediately contacted them to set up an opportunity for us to have a conversation about how they saw that and what we could do to assist. Th ose conversations will continue with agencies. We need to look at the contracts. We will be tracking. As I stated, I am committed, as is the ministry, to working with the sector to make sure that we fi nd the savings without reducing services. C.

James: Will the minister commit to releasing that tracking of where the cuts in programs and services are coming in each of those contracts so that the public has an idea of where those reductions are coming? Hon. S. Cadieux: As I will reiterate, there will be no cuts in services. We will be tracking the work that we do with the agencies in fi nding the savings. C.

James: Will the minister then commit — and per- haps it will come out in the budget at the end of the fi scal year — to release the report, the tracking, as the minister says, of where the reductions will come from, then, from each of those contracted services agencies? Hon. S. Cadieux: We, again, are not anticipating that this process is going to result in reductions in individual contracts. Th e reality is that we're going to work with the agencies and fi nd a way of doing this collectively as a sector. We committed to doing that with them. I'm very committed to that. As we do the work….

We have the fi s- cal year to do it. At the end we'll be able to tell you what the result was. [1555] C. James: It's sad to say, but I think the communities will know before anyone the impact of $8.5 million com- ing out of the community social services sector. Th at's a huge amount of resources that are coming out of agen- cies that provide direct service to clients. Although the minister believes, or says she believes, that they can fi nd those kinds of savings without any im-

British Columbia Debates336 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 pact, I think we will see the impact, and we will feel the impact. Unfortunately, as I said, it will be the most vul- nerable in communities who are going to feel that. Could the minister let us know what the practice is in other ministries? We have heard that the Ministry of Health is actually providing the funding to their non- union sector and to their community contracts for their wage lift and not expecting the contracts to be reduced to provide the amount of money that is in the collective agreement. Hon. S.

Cadieux: As I'm sure the member is well aware from her many years in this House, the mechan- isms by which contracts are delivered in various min- istries are diff erent, which means the opportunities for working to fi nd solutions are also diff erent. In this ministry we're going to work collaboratively with individual agencies on a contract-by-contract basis to see what we can do as a ministry and as a sector. Th at said, the $8.5 million is inclusive of both the union and non-union contracts. C.

James: On another issue related to contract services from the ministry, the social service providers within the ministry were assured that they'd receive the funds for the new Family Day, the statutory holiday, and that those funds would be coming to their contract. In fact, I believe the Premier herself and others made those comments — that they would be receiving the funds to cover off that Family Day. Could the minister inform us if those funds have gone to any contracted agencies? [1600] [D. Horne in the chair.] Hon. S. Cadieux: Th e short answer is no. But yes, we will.

Th e reason for that is that we have over 10,000 con- tracts with over 6,000 service providers and no central contracting repository to know how many staff were eligible in any particular agency. As we are going to be working with all of the agencies and reviewing their con- tracts as a part of this process for looking for the coopera- tive gains, we will be able to get that information and provide that to those agencies. C. James: Just to continue on with contracted services, one of the big challenges that is oft en heard of in the contracted services is the reporting requirements.

Oft en duplication in reporting requirements occurs not sim- ply with the Ministry of Children and Families but, in fact, across government. Many of these agencies, as the minister would know, contract with two or three areas in government, two or three ministries in government, and oft en are required to submit the same kind of informa- tion, the same basic forms. Given how stretched not-for-profi ts are, in particular, and given how stretched the community social services sector is, has government ever considered, or is the gov- ernment looking at, any kind of opportunity to be able to streamline that process?

Perhaps, provide a common reporting process across government to be able to al- leviate some of the workload that is carried by the social services sector, where you have executive directors who are executive directors, budget managers, contract writ- ers, service providers — direct service providers, oft en. I wondered whether the minister has looked within the ministry at anything in that area. Hon. S. Cadieux: Y es, absolutely.

In fact, I'm sure the member knows that in my previous life I, as well, had ex- perience in the not-for-profi t sector in contracted agen- cies and in reporting to multiple funders on the same services. I understand very well those challenges. Th is is actually the sort of example I was trying to articulate in an earlier answer when I said these are the types of op- portunities for savings we do still see in the sector.

If we, the ministries of government, are able to sim- plify what we require of our contracted service providers, which do such a good job providing services, and give them an opportunity to not spend so much time and energy on the reporting requirements or on the initial contract bid…. Th ose sorts of things, I think, are going to see opportunities as well. Th at is something we're looking at within this cooperative gains framework. As well, I'll mention that my deputy is also a co-chair of the GNPI initiative within the sector. Th at is work that was already underway and is continuing. [1605] C.

James: I would certainly agree with the minister around the work that's being done. I'm glad to hear that. I think it's something that's long overdue for the sector. I would disagree strongly on whether savings can be found in that area. I think you have individuals who are already doing 12 diff erent things. To be reducing the amount of time they spend on contracting reporting will be a positive thing, because it'll mean they'll be able to take on the other 11 tasks that they have. So I would dis- agree around the savings issue. Th e other discussion…. It may relate to the work that your deputy is doing.

Th ere has been discussion about a social policy framework across government for com- munity agencies. Th is is something that we've seen occur in Alberta. It's something that has occurred in Nova Scotia as well, where government — across government, across ministries — has looked at how to provide a so- cial policy framework for services now and into the fu- ture — long-term planning around how that service will be provided. I just wonder whether that had been any of the discus- sion that had gone on in the ministry when it came to the

British Columbia DebatesWednesday, July 10, 2013 337 social services sector. Hon. S. Cadieux: I am aware of the examples raised by the member and also of the interest or conversations that are being raised by the Federation of Community Social Services, Board Voice and other agencies. Th e solution may be similar or diff erent in British Columbia, but the GNPI and similar forums are the places where those dis- cussions are happening. C. James: I wouldn't expect that it'd be the same model for anywhere. I would expect that it would be unique. But I certainly think it's a conversation worth having.

I think it's an area that provides an opportunity to be able to look at the social services sector — how the social services sector provides supports to government and to the min- istry and how that's going to change and evolve over the next number of years. I think there's real strength there.

I'm pleased to hear that there's an opportunity, I take from the minister's comments, for Board Voice, for the Federation of Community Social Services — planning agencies and associations — to be involved in those kinds of discussions. [1610] A question to the minister, then, about the social in- novation work that's going on across government. Social enterprise, social innovation — it has a number of diff er- ent names that people know it by. How is the Ministry of Children and Families involved, and how does the minis- ter see that work impacting the ministry itself? Hon. S.

Cadieux: Th e Ministry of Children and Family Development is not taking an active role in social innova- tion — or in that fi le, particularly. Th at said, I certainly have a personal interest in social innovation and social enterprise and see potential there. But by its very nature, the eff orts in that regard would require partners from outside government to come forward with ideas and op- portunities. I'll certainly be interested in looking at them. Th at said, the Ministry of Social Development and Social Innovation is the lead for government on that fi le. C. James: Th ank you very much to the minister.

Just moving on, then, to some of the program areas within the service plan and some of the specifi cs in the service plan itself. Just starting off with the area of child safety. Th e min- istry service plan talks about addressing child and youth safety as well as making sure that they use the family de- velopment response approach. I think all of us would agree that providing support to families to be able to care for their children, and whatever is necessary at certain times in their lives, is a positive dir- ection and is the right approach.

I think that certainly has a lot of strengths, and I think it's an opportunity that all of us would agree is always a fi rst step when there aren't issues of abuse and neglect that are putting the child's safety at risk. Given that, given that the ministry has set that as a direction, could the minister explain, then, what ser- vices and supports are in place for those families? If we're putting a family response in place, what services and supports are available to those families as part of this strategy? [1615] Hon. S.

Cadieux: Primarily, what this means is that the social worker is not just a broker of services, particu- larly up front. Instead, they spend much more time dir- ectly with the family, are more involved in working with the family on the issues that are presented and, then, in assisting and navigating the system and connecting dir- ectly with the other services that are available in other ministries — perhaps mental health or addictions pro- grams or working on resolving confl ict or skills for the parents in resolving confl ict with their teens.

Th en, of course, the other opportunities to connect may be provided through community service provid- ers, as well, including connecting with support groups or parenting classes or homemaker services or support services like that. C. James: So taking on the role more of navigator — support for the family but also navigating the system rather than providing directly the services. Not to come back and harp on it, but all the more reason to look out for those community social services, because this pro- gram that the ministry has set as a goal will not work if those community social services are cut.

Y ou will need those community social services to provide for these kinds of supports that are there. I also wondered if the minister could tell us whether the social workers who work in this area carry a smaller caseload than other social workers? Is there any adjust- ment made for the amount of time and energy that is going to be required to provide this kind of support to families? [1620-1625] Hon. S. Cadieux: In this case, we don't have a specifi c tracking of caseloads for the family development case- loads because they're relationship-based, primarily, and the workers work in teams and share the work.

Th ey may have the initial contact with the family. Of course, they reach out to members of their team to provide expertise in areas of family development response, family group conference coordinating, mediating, child and youth mental health workers, etc. So there's a team approach, a wraparound approach, to support both the family and the caseworkers. C. James: Continuing in this particular area and look-

British Columbia Debates338 Wednesday, July 10, 2013 ing at the response models, the only performance meas- ure that's listed under this

section is looking at the ratio of investigations versus the new model of response — of family development response — and measuring that ratio. While I take that that's an important measure to look at — whether you're doing less investigations, whether you're able to support the family unit as a whole — it doesn't really tell us success. It doesn't really tell us out- comes for children. It really tells us whether we're doing one type of investigation or not, but it doesn't really re- port out on what the success has been for that child, for that family. So is the ministry looking at other performance meas- ures?

Is the ministry looking at success rates? Is the ministry looking at long-term placement with families, family reunifi cation, longer progress reports on those families? Is the ministry looking at some other perform- ance measure than simply looking at the rate of response to a family? Hon. S. Cadieux: Y es, the service plan only has a couple of measures, but certainly, that's not all we track. We did recently, just this spring, post the fi rst of the per- formance management reports for the ministry, which lays out a number of other tracking mechanisms.

We will be continuing to post those on a regular basis as we go but, as well, add to the depth and variety of measures that we track as we go. [1630] C. James: I appreciate the minister says that they're looking at other tracking measures, and as you men- tioned, they will be added, but are they going to be added as performance measures in the service plan? Will they then become part of what gets reported out as part of the service plan? Will that evolve next year, for example, to include more measures that the minister said she's look- ing at in the ministry? Hon. S.

Cadieux: Th e service plan is always, just by the nature of it, limited in what we can provide there. Th at's exactly why we're providing a much more detailed per- formance management report, available on line. If you don't have a copy of that, I'd be happy to get one to you, but that is where we list in much more detail a number of things that can be tracked and are tracked publicly now. C. James: Th anks to the minister for that.

I think that it's important, particularly with the kind of turmoil we've seen over the last ten years in the ministry when it comes to changing structures, when it comes to reorganization, when it comes to new practice methods. I think the more opportunity for the ministry to be clear about what it is tracking, to be clear about what it is reporting out on and to be consistent over time on those areas will hopefully start building some of the confi dence that is needed so badly in this particular area.

It doesn't do anyone well, particularly the vulnerable children that are served, to not have public confi dence in the ministry. I certainly would hope that we'll see more reporting on a regular basis and a more consistent ap- proach and less reorganization to be able to build some of that confi dence up in the ministry. Moving on to talk, then, a little bit about plans of care, if we can, as the minister knows and as the ministry knows, the Representative for Children and Y outh tabled her report that was called Much More Th an Paperwork this past spring.

It looked at a review of plans of care for children and youth. To read one line from the report…. I think it really described the challenges that are faced in this area, so I'd like to take a bit of time with this. A quote from the representative is: "Th ere is only one word to describe the fi ndings of this audit — unaccept- able." Th at was shocking. Th e report was shocking. I'm sure it was shocking to the ministry itself and to min- istry staff . My fi rst question to the minister would be: could the minister explain why the compliance for plans of care was so low in the ministry? [1635] Hon. S.

Cadieux: Before I get into the detailed answer on the plans of care, following up on your comments aft er my last answer, we are in agreement. Th ere needs to be more focus on practice and less on structures. Certainly, our motto moving forward is simplify, clarify and priori- tize. I am confi dent we're going to be able to bring that stability to the ministry. Now, as it relates to the plans-of-care audit that the representative did, I think her recommendations were very thoughtful.

Clearly, it didn't mean work wasn't being done with children, but we do have a duty to ensure that the documentation and the proactive planning is done. We have a number of things that were already under- way in the ministry at the time that that plan was released and a number of things that are ongoing and underway. Th e fi rst thing was that we had appointed a new associ- ate director of adoptions, guardianship and permanency, whose role is to ensure that compliance in care plans and focus on permanence.

We reintroduced the compliance-based audit system to measure success against the standards that we set for ourselves, because clearly, that was not happening in a consistent way. We've developed a new standardized plan-of-care template which places an emphasis on the rights of children in care. And we have identifi ed as a priority of our review of the foster care system — which, of course, was complete just before this report as well — that we needed to set a goal of reaching 100 percent compliance by 2014 — which is, of course, loft y but, I believe, achievable.

We're examining, of course, workload for social work-

British Columbia DebatesWednesday, July 10, 2013 339 ers through this process and increasing training on writ- ing the quality plans with the focus on permanency. Certainly, we're making progress and are committed to ensuring that we get there. Th ose results will be made public as we go. C. James: To get into a few of those specifi cs and the timelines around those, because I think that's import- ant, the minister mentioned a plan-of-care template, a new template. Could the minister tell us how that was developed? Where was the model? Is it a proven model?

Is it a model that would meet some of the recommenda- tions within the representative's report? Where did that model come from, and when is it being implemented? [1640] Hon. S. Cadieux: In planning for this, we looked cross- jurisdictionally, including the Looking Aft er Children model in the U.K. We considered, and very much includ- ed, the "Rights of children in care" under

section 70 of the CFCSA. We consulted with our staff , the youth-in-care networks and the delegated agencies. We've shared them all with the representative's offi ce, and we are currently training staff . In the fi rst phase, we're training all of the staff who work with the children on continuing custody orders and children with special needs agreements, and then we'll move that out to the rest of the staff aft er that. C. James: When are you expecting that the ministry will have the new template and we'll all be using the new template? What's the timeline around that implementa- tion? [1645] Hon. S.

Cadieux: Th e staff are using the model and the soft ware associated as they are trained, and that should all be complete by the end of the year. C. James: Th e minister mentioned training as part of this as well. So the training is ongoing and also will be completed by the end of the year? Th e timeline is the same? Hon. S. Cadieux: Sorry. I wasn't clear. Y es, they are using the new template and the soft ware associated as they are training on it, and it'll all be in place by the end of the year. We're getting some good feedback so far. C. James: Th ank you very much, Minister.

I think, probably, Hansard is grateful that we didn't take nodding of our heads as a response — to give you the opportunity to actually get it on record. One of the areas in the representative's report that was raised was the concern about face time, to use new lan- guage — the opportunity for social workers to actually meet in person with children that are in their care and on their caseload. Th e majority of meetings have taken place on e-mail, or contacts on e-mail and phone, and there weren't opportunities for the social worker to be meeting on a regular basis with the children.

My question to the minister is: how is that recommen- dation and concern within the report being addressed in the ministry? Th e Chair: We'll recess for fi ve minutes. Th e committee recessed from 4:46 p.m. to 4:53 p.m. [D. Horne in the chair.] Hon. S. Cadieux: Th ank you, hon. Chair, for your in- dulgence there. In response to the member

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20130710pm-Hansard-v2n5
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	20130710pm Hansard v2n5
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	aa60637439744a80ac8b229b26128c3ba86fd602

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