Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, APRIL 22, 1975 sPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M, JAMES RUSSELL Number 36

April 22, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Tape No. 1611 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. NM - 1 HON. J. C. CROSBIE, Minister of Fisheries: Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce the appointment of Mr. Gordon C. Slade as Deputy Minister of Fisheries. The post has been vacant since the appointment of the former Deputy Minister, Mr. Rupert Prince to the position of Chairman of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board in September.1974. Mr.

Slade is presently Assistant Deputy Minister of Development with the Fisheries Department. Prior to joining the Provincial Department of Fisheries in August,1973 he was employed for thirteen years with the Federal Fisheries and Environment Department. Previous to the 1973 appointment he worked as chief of programme planning with the Environmental Protection Service in Edmonton, Alberta. Prior to this he was employed with the Personnel Branch of Environment Canada for four years in St. John's and Ottawa. He was born in Placentia Bay.

Between 1961 and 1967 he worked as Field Officer and Di.strict Supervisor in the Conservation and Protection Branch of the Federal Fisheries Service i~ a number of locations throu~hout the Province including Burp;eo, Lewisporte and Corner Brook. He attended Memorial University and the University of Alberta and has as well completed a number of management and personnel courses with the federal government. I believe that Mr.

Slade with his proven administrative ability and his extensive knowledge of the Newfountlland fishery will do an excellent job in his new position, He is thirty-three and married to the former Agnes Parsons of Lewisporte and they have two children. So, Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I announce the appointment of this younr, Newfoundlander as our Deputy Minister of Fi~heries. He is well respected and rer.arded in Ottawa,and I believe !1ere in the Province, by those who are involved in the fishery antl who knm, of l1im 4791

April 22, 1<17.5 Tape NO. Hill anrl I hope that he will have a very successful career as DE>rc:ty>!inister of Fisheries in the Province. ,m.. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. NM - 2 ~fP., NRARY, Mr. Speaker, we welcome the appointment of Mr. Slade, Sir, as the neruty Minister of Fisheries. The post has been vacant in• our opinion probably too long. But finally the minister and the government l1ave rotten around to appointinf. a deputy minister which will rive th(' minister the badly back-up expertise that probably needs to run that department efficiently, Sir. We do wish Mr.

Slade every s11ceess in his new appointment, Sir. 'ffi. CRl)SilU:: I should have mentioned in makinp, that last statement that Hr. David Vardy, who is the Executive Secretary to the Planning and Priorities Committee,was the Acting Deputy Minister of Fisheries.

I would like to say publicly that he has done an excellent job there and has been very helpful and he will continue to be associated with the fishery generally, in particular the plans now in progress with the Government of Canada as to what should be done in the fishing industry and what assistance there should be and he will continue to he involved in that. Now I have another statement. Mr. Speaker, in connection with loss of gear in Placentia Bay.

During the months of February and March roost unusual heavy ice conditions destroyed approximately 1,100 set cod rill nets and 150 herring nets in Placentia Bay, leaving over twenty lonrliners presently inoperative because their owners do not have the cash or credit capability of replacinr their fishing gear. In some cases these fishermen still owe their suppliers for the lost gear. In Chance Cove, Trinity Bay, a similar situation exists but on a mucl1 smaller scale, where three or four crews lost a total of forty to fifty gill nets. Now this happened, Mr.

Speaker, because they set their rear in January and in a most unusual circumstance Placentia Bay froze over for the first time in I do not know whether it was thirty or forty or fifty years, anyway it was an unusual event. They were not able to get back to get their gear until April and most of their pear was lost. There were about seventy fishermen involved altogether 4791.

April 22, 1975 TApe No. 1611 NM - 3 including the crews of these longliners. Stronr representations have been made by the fishermen and the Ke111ber of the House of Assembly for the area, the !"ember for Placentia East,for full replacement of their losses, without which they will not be able to continue fishin?, so that they and their crews, totalling possibly seventy family men might likely be forced on Social Assistance unless some special plan is devised for them.

The Federal Provincial Gear Replacement Programme of 1974 in connection with heavy Artie ice conditions on the Northea .st Coas t is not applicable to these fishermen, nor is there any other fishing gear replacement programme other than the present subsidy programme available. That is the progrannne that is in effect now for anyone who wants to buy gear who is a fisherman and that rou~hly amounts to twenty-five or thirty per cent of the cost of the gear. 479J

April 22, 1975. Tape 1612 RH - 1 The 6overnmenthavedecided that in view of the disastrous circumstances that occurred with reference to these men under most unusual conditions that the government will implement a special assistance plan whereby those fishermen in Placentia Bay and at Chance Cove who lost fifty per cent or more of their fishing gear, if they lost over half the fishing gear that they own~due to these most unusual ice conditions would be assisted and replaced in the gear lost for the value of seventy-five per cent of the amount of the loss.

In other words, the fishermen will have to meet twenty-five per cent of the amount of the cost of replacing their lost gear with the government t:o contribute the remainder. This proposed special programme will be restricted to cover only those fishermen in Placentia Bay and Chance Cove whose losses have been reported to the department before April 22, 1975 and who lost fifty per cent or more of their fishing gear so that the individual has suffered a disaster.

If any other claims are made other than those already reported to the cepartment,and it will be unusual if there are because anyone who lost a lot of gear like that would report it to the department or to the Department of Fisheries of Canada, the department will examine them str1ctly to ascertain whether a claim would be entertained or not. There may be some who,and if they do apply we will certainly have a look at it, but this plan is to apply to those who have all ready reported their losses over the last six to eight weeks.

The total number of fishermen involved are from forty to fifty in numher and the claims of each of these fishermen will be carefully examined to insure that they did indeed lose over fifty per cent of the gr.ar they owned due to those causes and to insure that they are bona fide fishermen who earn the majority of their income from fishing. The col'lmunities involved include Little Ha·rbour, Arnold's Cove, Southern Earbour, Fair Haven, Jerseyside, Freshwater and Ferndale. l!!l.. SPEAKER : The honourable Leader of the Opposition. }IT!. n.om:,i.Ts: Hr.

Speaker, of course we welcome the news that the government are ~oing to help the fishermen in the Eastern side of Placentia 4794

April 22, 10.75. Tape 1612 RH - 2 Bay and in the community of Chance Cove in Trinity Bay who were affected by this unusual disaster. I suppose any disaster is unusual but this disaster was unusual even beyond the unusual range because, of course, Placentia Bay is generally considered to be an ice free bay and I suppose almost universally is an ice free bay except during the sort of circum­ stances the minister described.

Sir, to us the government's decision while it is welcome is an indication of a very unpleasant state of affairs, a very unacceptable state of affairs because it shows once again the need for two types of programmes for our fishermen. One is for a realistic gear insurance and replacement programme. We have had a series of ad hoc programmes, some of which have been administered satisfactorily, some of which have been administered unsatisfactorily.

In addition, Sir, we need a r,ear bank in Newfoundland whereby our fishermen will have · gear made available to them at the lowest possible cost and if there is to be a subsidy element built in, if the public Treasury is to pay part of the cost of fishing gear,and I think that is a case that certainly should be con­ sidered, then the way to build in that subsidy is through a gear bank and not the present programme which is only having the effect of driving up the prices 1or so the fishermen tell me and so the people who are looking into the matter advised me. Mr.

Speaker, we think there should be a gear bank programme. We think that there should be a permanent disaster replacement or a programme on a permanent basis to replace gear lost in disasters. We have seen the joint federal-provincial programme last year. We have seen now this special ad hoc move to help a relatively few fishermen in Placentia Bay. I would urge the minister to give renewed consideration to the problems of fishermen on the Port au Port Peninsula who have had con­ siderable trouble and have not been able to get any assistance.

Also, the fishermen, some of them in my own district and in other coum,unities throughout Newfoundland who have lost their gear through heavy storm damage, and the heavy storm, Mr. Speaker, can be every bit as devastating as ice and equally, Sir, a loss of ~ear through a heavy storm from a man who has no credit left to him and has no cash available to buy new gear 4795

April 22, 1975. Tape 1612 RR - 3 can be just as deva statin g on that man.' s ability to prosecu ·te the fishery. So, the programme is welcomed, but,Sir, it is only scratching the surface and it is not, it is not enough . It is not nearly enough.

We do need a gear bank and we do need a permanen t programme, a programme on a permanent hasis co help fishermen to insure against, co r,uard against loss of f,ear through natural disasters . l !T'.:_. __ SPF,AKR!l.: Refore we continue. it has been brou ght to my attention that we have a deler,ation from the Hermitaf!e Community Council in the galler i es consisting of the Chairman , Mr . Herbert Rose and councillors Mr. Wes Harris, Mr. Doug Rose, Mr. John Uollett and Mr. Calvin Crew.

On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you to the galleries today and trust that your visit here is most interesting. 479ti

April 22, 1975 Tape 1613 (afternoon) MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other ministerial statements? I have just been handed a note saying we also have in the gallery from Pilleysisland community council Mr. Payne, Mr. Rice, and Mr. Anderson. On behalf of all honourahle memhers I certainly welcome you gentlemen to the galleries today. NOTICE OF KJTION: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: I give notice that on behalf of the Minister of Finance that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Department Of Finance Act." MR.

ROBERTS: Are you going to abolish the minister's ne,.r budget? MR. CROSBIE: Not yet. ANSWRRS TO QUESTIONS FOP. WHICH NOTICE HAS l\F.F.N GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The honourahle Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND CO'M¥UNICATIO~~): Mr. Speaker, I undertook to get some information for the honourable Member for Hermitage on Friday, and I have the information now. It was a question posed in respect to a recruiting trip that was made to England by the Department of Transportation and Communications. I affirm that there was.

I did not have the details at that time, and I undertook to get the figures why this trek was undertaken. I have checked with the people in the department. Right now we have four district engineers, four positions, two are filled and two are vacant. We have eleven civil engineers, of which nine are filled and two are vacant. We have fourteen civil engineers l's, two filled and twelve vacant. So, out of the twenty-nine engineering posts, we have a total of thirteen filled and sixteen vacant. Since April we have had some people who have left, April 1, 1974.

We have had four engineering _l's who have left us, two engineering _JI_1 s and one district engineer has left, and we have had two engineering_t7s who have commenced work. We have two new graduates now who are coming out on June 1, one from Memorial. There were four interviews and we offered all four the positions, all four of the students,but only one accepted. We have one also from 479/

April 22, 1 Q75 Tape 1613 (afternoon) Nova Scotia Tech. So, that will be two new graduates coming in. So, on the bas1s of that,of course,we have to find some engineers to cope with the large programme we have in the department. IB-2 We need the engineers to assist in that. You J,:now, it is thirteen people now. We are spread pretty thin. Tt is very difficult to get the many reau~sts you get or the many complaints you get, to have them checked out from an engineering point of vi=. Also in respect to the design work, the design work for bridges and the road work and so on, it is a very difficult thing to do.

We need engineers badly. As I suggested on Friday, we certainly would give preference, no question about it, to Newfoundlanders if they were available. Normally many leave once they get the experience, leave and go into private industry for a number of reasons I would assume. Where they are available, we certainJy would like to have them. We have not contracted with anybody yet as a result of our trip although we are showing some interest in three of the inlterviewees we met while in England.

So, right now the situation is that nohody has come as a result of that trip, hut there are three people in whom the department is interested. We have, as I say, thirt:een out of twenty-nine posts filled which puts the engineering aspect of the department in sort of a difficult position. So, the honourable member knows when you are asking for things that we have to send engineers in to do, with the lack of engineers, of course, it is going to take a little longer to do it. That is the reason why we are anticipating that we might be at-le to piclc up a few over there and try and fill those posts.

ORAL QutSTtoNS : MR. SPEAKF.R: The honourable Me,mber for Hermitage. MR. SIM!-'ONS: Mr. Speaker, just 'to pursue the matter which the Minister of Transportation has just been commenting on. Is there any particular reason why the numbers of vacaincies insofar as engineers in hts department 1.s concerned, why the numrer •of vacancies is so high. Is there some nart1.cular reason over the past few months or year or so which has contr1.huted to an unduly large nuder of vacancies or is it the problem 479ti

April 22 , 1975 Tape 1613 (afternoon) 1S-3 of competing with private in<lustry from a salary standpoint? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation a.nd Communications. MR, ROUSSEAU: I cannot specifically answer your question , but I would assume that, you know, the pressure in the department is quite hanl when the staff is small and probably without a full complement people are carrying big loads. I presume that probably t he pay and the chances for advancement may be better in private industry, I do not know.

Sut, i t would appear - I could say,although I am not certain of this - that those who have left,I guess,would prefer to work in private industry than in gove-rnment, You kno<., outsid .e of that, 1 do not know - and even that ,I am assuming that to be the case .

Afternoon. April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1614 Page 1 - mw MR. SIMMONS: Another supplementary for the minister. The other day when I raised the matter I also mentioned what I thought was an existing shortage of mechanics as well. Is the minister satisfied or can he assure the House that there is a sufficient number of mechanics now to keep ahead of the problem? Can I assume from what he answered a few days ago that the real problem is not a shortage of mechanics but a shortage of parts to repair the highwa,•s equipment? Is that a fair assumption? MR. ROUSSEAU: No. I did not exactly say that.

I accepted the fact that we do not have all the mechanics we want. But I say the delays are also complicated by the fact that materials are not as readily available as we would want to have them available, these two things rather than just the parts. I have the numbers, as I say, of the mechanics in each of the depots and so on and so forth and all the information that I would have had,had my estimates been discussed, which they may not now with the time left. And if not, well, I would be prepared to table any information in respect to that, you know, when the estimates are over.

But I had that information for the estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Hon. Premier. Would the Ron. Premier inform the House whether or not the Marystown Shipyard is up for sale? If so, have there been any offers? Is it going to be placed on public tender? Just how will the sale be brought about? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there was some misinterpretation I would suppose from yesterday's Daily News headline in that particular story.

When I was down in Marystown this weekend, the question was asked, what was the future of the Maryetown Shipyard? During the course of answeri~g that question it was explained by me that the future of the Marystown Shipyard at this present time looks particularly good. It looks particularly good not just from the trawler building point of view but also the point of view of building

April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1614 Page 2 - mw vessels that could possibly service the offshore oil and gas exploration,and certainly if there is any production even more so. Now at that time as well I said that there were people who had contacted the govermient, who are interested in the yard as such, It is not the government's intention to sell the yard, Mr. Speaker, unless it is a much better proposition than the government themselves could do.

And at the present time there is no intention certainly of - there is no offer as such that the government would countenance, And it is the government's very clear position that the shipyard shall operate to the fullest capacity. If that could be done more and better by private hands, that is the way it would be done. We certainly then would look at any proposition we received, The main thing we will, Sir, is to ensure that the shipyard and the activities there will be kept operational for the benefit of the people of Marystown. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Are there any negotiations at all going on at the moment for private enterprise to take over the shipyard? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, there are always negotiations going on between government and private enterprise. There are people who have asked questions, would we consider certain things under certain circumstances? At the present time there are no serious negotiations for the Marystown Shipyard. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. If there are any serious negotiations, would the Premier undertake - MR. MOORES: I just said there was not. MR.

NEARY: No, but if - the Premier also said that there are continuous negotiations going on with private enterprise. If there are any serious proposals will the Premier undertake to make a commitment to this House that nothing will be done to unload the Marystown Shipyard until and unless the people in the area are consulted on the matter? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, this government would never unload an industry of that sort. The Marystown Shipyard is one of the few Crown Corporations that is doing well economically. It is working out very well. 4801

April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1614 Page 3 - mw And cert;ainly under no circWJlstances would the govennnent unload the shipyard, as the member for Bell Island, says. What we will do is always lo.ok after the interests of the people of Marystown and - MR. NEARY: MR . MOORES: Without prior consultation;with the people in the area? - make sure that they get the best possible deal. We are always in consultation witq the people in the area. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what kind of trip the Prelilier had to Marystown but there seems to be a fire sale going on down there.

What about the Atlantic l'ish Processing Company Limited? Are they going to sell out? Have they been put up on tenders? What is happening the:te? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all that was not of the subject of anything tha.t I had to talk about at Marystown. As I recall the presJ.dent of Atlantic Fish in Toronto mentioned the fact that they were negotiating a sale of the fish plant in Marystown.

Now, I think, Sir, it should be stressed, as far as the government's viewpoint is concerned, that in this plant in Marystown,which is a large, mo.dern and very efficient plant and has also a very large and modern fishing fleet of trawlers operating out of it, it is 480L

April 22, 1975 Tape 1615 (Afternoon) in fact one of the best physical plants in Eastern Canada. Should there be any fishing companies interested in obtaining this fish PK - 1 plant, I think that one thing that would have to be ensured by government, and government are in the position to ensure this because after all Atlantic Fish paid for the leases to government, and also the government has the mortgage on the trawlers, I believe it is, as well as having the guarantees of the Jannock Corporation,which is a controlling Corporation of Atlantic Fish,which government holds as well.

Now, Sir, if the Jannock Corporation want to sell their fish plant in Marystown the only thing the government can do - we111there are two things,really - one is to ensure that the guarantees that have been backed up by the Jannock Corporation are lived up to with the same security; And secondly, and more important>that any one who is going to operate in the Marystown area if an agreement is reached will be someone who is fully interested in the fishery in this Province, not as a part of maybe a national or a multinational company but rather someone who wants to make a greater contribution to that area than is presently the case.

MR. NF.ARY: Like Soencer Lake. MR. MOORES: But certainly, Sir, as far as we are concerned we have not been involved in any of this, and before anything happens I would think we will he. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Do I understand, Sir, from the Premier's statement that Atlantic Fish Processing who are right into their ears in debt to this government,do not know anything about these negotiations to sell the Fish Plant in }farystown? Is it the first knowledge that the Premier had of it? Do I get the impression when he read it in the newspaper or heard it on the radio?

If so, Sir, I mean this is scandalous. And what is the Premier doing about it? MR. MOORES : Mr. Speaker, it is still a private company. As I said before the guarantees that Jannock has with this government we will ensure that that security is fully secured, and we have no intention of listening to any proposals unless that is the case. And secondly,anything that Atlantic does,or a private company, they can make any statements like they did at their annual meeting without consultation with this 4803

April 72, 1975 Tape 1615 (Afternoon) PK - 2 r.overnment, hut before they can take any steps or have any definitive action, they could not do it without contacting and liaisoning with the> p.overnment. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the Hon. the Premier tell the House if the r,overnment has a member representative on the Board of Director's of this company to protect the government's investment in Atlantic Processing? '-1R. 'IOORES: Not only that, Mr. Speaker, but the cabinet itself, the government itself is fully aware that we have to protect this investment.

And we certainly intend to do just that. HR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. If there is a member, and I presume it is a cabinet minister, if there is a representative on the company why did not that representativf' not report the meeting of the lloard of Directors to the lion. the Premier and the administration? Why did the Premier have to hear it on the air or read it in the newspaper1 MR. M()0RFS: Mr.

Speaker, the meeting that was held in Toronto,as I understand it 1was the Shareholders of Jannock Corporation, and the r:overnment does not have a member on the Board of Jannock Corporation which is the controllinp; Corporation of Atlantic Fish. HR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. E. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, would the Premier assure us that the r,overnment will ensure that the contractual obligations which the Atlantic Sup;ar Company undertook are preserved in any settlement.

Now 1 am not allowed to make a speech, but I would remind the Premier that in 19r,9 Atlantic Sugar wished to close the Marystown plant, and they were nrevented from doinp; it because the contract which they entered into hetween the government on the one hand, and the Atlantic Sugar people on the other with the backing of Gairdner and Company required them to keep it open if it was economically viable so to do, and we so proved at the ti.me. So the point of my question, Mr.

Speaker, is will the .r:overnment ensure that the rights that the government now have and which tJ,e neople row have are preserved in any proposal by Jannock to sell their shares - that is what they are talking of - selling their shares in tJ,is ,mhsidiary. 4804

April 22, 1975 Tape 1615 (Ahernoon) PK - 3 MR. SPEAI<F.R: The Ron. the Premier. MR._MOORES: Mr. Speake r, I thought I had made that clear . Absolutely , the government will protect the interest of the people of Marystown by ensuring that plant is kept ope.n, and cercainly no one is going to be allowed to duck out from in under jus t for the sake of convenience. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for llell Island. MR. _NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the Hon. the Premier. Before I get to the main question, Sir , the Premier owes me an answer to a question I put to him the other day about the spuds.

I asked the Ron. the Premier the other day if the government would consider gover11Jnent institutions buying these potatoes from the Nevfoundlan d producers,and the Premier said he would give me an answer the next day. ~ .·. _SPEAKER: HR. MOORES: The Hon. the Premier. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the .48 05

April 22, 1<175. Tape 1616 RH - 1 ~'inister of l'ealth, Department of Health, Deparrnent of Rehabilitation an<l those <lepartments that have government institutions directly under thej_r control have been asked to investigate the matter with the intention of purchasinr; Newfoundland ver,etables first and foremost. JIT' •• 'TEA RY: Hr. Speaker, is the honourable the Premier aware that tile I:RCO plant is back in the news again and is the Premier aware that a report submitted to both the Provincial Government and the l'ederal r.ovcrnment shows that the whole area, the whole Long !,arbour area is being poisoned?

If the Premier is aware of this, would the Premier un<lertal·.e t.o tnhle these reports, to make the reports public? Would tJ,e Frer-lier also tell us what action has been taken on these reports, if anv? '.i)".:.'----.:?r:J\KfR: The honourabl,:, the Premier. PRF.J'Ir.R 1 roonr.s: !!r. Speaker, to my knowledge there is no official report. I am certainly familiar with what the member is talking about and it is a subject of very considerable concern by the Federal Govern­ n,ent officials and ouselves right now.

As soon as a conclusive position has been tal'.en 1-1hich hopefully will be very shortly I will gladly advise the member in this 11ouse. 'lJ' •• !:EARY: ·-- ---- Jlr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Tr:msportation ancl Communications. Has the minister received any repre­ sentation either orally, in writing or in person from the people living 1.n the Hinter Jlrook, Jamestown, Brooklyn area in the district of Ilonavista South comp)aininr; about the road conditjons in that area? ~T.. SPEAKER: The honourable ~!inister of Transportation and Communications. ·-- ------ 'fR.

R()lTSSF.All: ·- ----- - -- I really do not know. Probably I have. I do not think tl1cre is an area in the Province that I have not received representation from. It is kind of hard to follow them all. Undoubtedly if they have bad roads there I or somebody in the department must have heard from them hut I cannot recall. It might have been hy letter, telegram. There arc so many that go across your-desk in the run of a day that you cannot follow them all. I do not know really. It could be and it could have r;one dotm departmentally. It could have gone in the field but I cannot 4801J

April 22, 1975. Tape 1616 RII - 2 recall it. That is not to say it has not come. If it did come to my desk, directions or instructions would have been passed on to the officials to attempt to reckon whatever the problem was, to attempt to rectify it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the minister would undertake to get me the information because I understand that they have been in touch with the minister from that area and they would like to know what is going to happen concerning the road down there. MR. ROUSSEAU: What area was that again? MR.

NEARY: In the Winter Brook, Jamestown, Brooklyn area in the district of Bonavista South,and I am not going to run down there by th!;! way. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Tourism could give us an updated report on the Norma and Gla<!Js? Is she or is she not fit to sail across the Pacific, the Atlantic and the Pacific to Japan? Is the minister having second thoughts? What is happening? Has there been a recent inspection of the Norma and Gladys? Is she still going? Is she going to be piggy-backed to Japan? Just what is happening in this regard? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism. BON. T.

HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, if I had my way the honourable gentleman might be piggy-backed on her but we do not have any plans for any piggy­ backing. I am sorry really to report to the honourable gentleman,but very pleased to report to the people of the Province through this honourable House that the voyage is still on. The honourable gentleman would be very happy if it was cancelled but we have no intentions of cancelling it. We have met with the Newfoundland Cruising Club, discussed the report, very unfortunate that that report was used by the paper. It was simply a working report, a basis for discussion.

As a result of a meeting with the Newfoundland Cruising Club it was very quickly pointed out that almost ninety per cent of the points raised,or more than ninety per cent of the points raised in the report had all ready been taken care of. The both groups, my staff and the club are continuing to work together to co-operate with one another in insuring that all safety features are implemented and taken care of. The matter of the seaworthiness of the vessel, I am given every assurance of. We have had a consultant advising us from the very early 4807

April 22, 1975 . Tape 1616 RH - 3 sta;;es of the project in the person of ttr. fl . A. Harvey.

"aybe the hon­ our-Rhle :-.c-ntl=nn mi~ht lil'.e to !·now what his qualifications are . lie is a ~cllow of the Royal Institute of tlava l Ar chitects. l!e is a fellow of the :1:1ri.ne r:n;-,incers, n J:ritish Donrd of Trade Cer tificate, served on sev!'ntc<'n ships,nine years at seo, inspector of sh ips f or Newfoundland rrc-C:onfcd<'rlltion, Director of Vessel Construction for :-lew-foumlland, exclusive Lloyd's surveyor for Newfoundland for over thirty years . 'l'hi.s r.<'ntlcman has been on the job on thi.s vessel right from the 1,c-;inninA. still is and uill continue .

As well we are workinr. with the people at t hP. "isheries College and as far as I 8111 con cerned, J-4r. !;pcaker, I thin k that is suffic ient to show everyo ne conce rne d or eve ryone int erested that this voya ge is not ~oing to take pla ce wi thout every precautionary step being tal:en . The r e was no cause or no reason for concern. 400tl

April 22, 1975 Tape 1617 (afternoon) IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. '.MR. F. ROWE: A question to the Minister of Hines and Energy, 1'1r. Speaker. nuring the consideration of the estimates, the minister undertook to get answers with respect to the estahl:1 .shment of converter stations on the cable switching stations on either side of the Straits of Belle Isle, when the main transmission line is put there. Could he indicate whether he has ?Ot the answer to that question or not yet, please . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable 1'1inister of Mines and Energy. HON. L.

BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): Mr. Speaker, I have been speaking to the officials of the Crown Corporation ~ewfoundland Hydro on this matter. Their preliminary conclusions are that :It would not be feasible to tap off from the high voltage direct current transmissjon line from Gull Island for the Great Northern Peninsula, the tip of the Great Northern Peninsula area because the number of customers would not warrant the extremely expensive and complicated, technologically complicated operation that is necessary. As I understand it from them, you cannot tap off from a line.

You have got to terminate the line. in order to bring :It down to AC current. You cannot tap off a DC line and have the line continue. However, Mr. Speaker, the corporation has been looking into the feasibility, and it looks quite encouraging for bringing,in addition to the high voltage direct current line, bringing also an alternating current line in the same tunnel from potential hydro sources on the Labrador side. In other words, it is feasible to contemplate a smaller hydro development near the Straits on the Labrador side that could be used to service both the Labrador side of the Straits, the St.

Anthony area and the Great Northern Peninsula, Roddickton area, the entire tip of the Great Northern Peninsula. I think that that approach would meet the concerns that the member has for the district understandably for getting his constituents tied into a hydro system rather than having to rely on the diesel plants. MR. F. ROWE: Has the corporation looking into the possi.bili ty of extending the existing power grid there? I think the existing power grid now goes 480~

Apri.1 22, 1975 Tape 1617 (afternoon) IB-2 up as far as F.ddy 's Cove West, is it? Port au r.t,oix. ~ •-~_,__f_,_ R()l,rt::: Port au Choix. What is the feasibility of exten<!ing that compared with l>ri.nging an alternating current across the St raits? ~R . !lARRY: This is the type of review, Mr. Speaker, that goes on :dmost constantly 1<i th the corporation. Every ye;ir there are a number of 1d1at they wnulcl call hydro ties where new communities a·re taken into the hydro system <eh<>re that is feasil,le, economically and technologj cally feasihl e.

To my knowledge t~is is not AS economically or techni cally >1trr11ctive as tying the ti.11 of the C.reat Northe r n Peninsula tnto a •f,t1hrndr,r hyrl rn source at this t ill'e. As the population and load r,rowth grew of course then this hecome s more feasi.ble. llu t, 11t the preRent time and jus·c as of this morning, the corpr, r ation indicated to me that they were looking at the rl<>velopmenr of a smaller hyrlro site across the St raits of llelle Isle to serve the ti~ of the Great Northern Peninsula. _:'IL SPF.AK Fil: The honourable ~!ember for Bel 1 Island. MF. NF./\!l.Y: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Prem:ler, Sir , has any information that the llouse does not have or the people of Newfoundland do not have cnnce rn1 np: secret e,cps1nsi.on of the t e rms of referi>nce of the Pal ton Report that innicate that if Marystown ls ma~e a port of call for the CN ferries , "'Ul Arp:enti.a he phased out? noes the Premier have any info=ation on this matter at 1111? MJL SPf.At(F.P: The honour ab le t he .Premier. 40 .i.U

April 22, 1975 Tape No. 1618 NM - 1 MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I have absolutely no information on that subject whatsoever. That is a totally federal responsibility,and you know,this has been bandied around recently but certainly we have no information on it,We will do our utmost to find out. But we have at this time absolutely no knowledge of it whatsoever. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I hope the honourable the Premier will try and get the information for the House.

Sir, would the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications inform the House if he has received any representation from the people who live in the St. Jacques to Coombs Cove area, Belleoram area, Pool's Cove and all the various town councils down there, if the minister has received any communications from these people about road conditions and what action the minister has taken on their demands to get the roads improved and is the minister going to exceed to their request to resign? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable }linister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J.

ROUSSEP.U, Minister of Transportation and Communications: In three years and about two weeks it is the best offer I have had yet. I took a long time over the weekend to decide on it and my wife thought it was a very good suggestion, I woke up with one eye open yesterday morning and I heard this headline, somebody is demanding Rousseau's resienation. I think they are a very intelligent bunch down there. No, I had a telegram from them. I did not receive the telegram actually until this morning - AN HON. MEMBER: Then you should resign. MR. ROUSSEAU: But why should I resign? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR.

ROUSSEAU: I was on the job, believe me I was on the job. But I received the telegram this morning and I am now in the process of drafting a reply. I was on Open Line on CJOX this morning and explained the situation. MR. NEARY: What is it? MR. ROUSSEAU: The situation is that nobody said that,for example, last week I believe I stood up and I supported a petition from Wreck Cove and I mentioned Boxey as well. Nobody said they were not going to be done 4811

/\pril 22, 1975 Tape No. HilB NM - 2 which does not mean they are going to be done,by the way,as I explained this rnorninir,. What we attempted to do and what I have heen sayinr; in this House for a couple of weeks is we are trying to find out just how much it is goinr: to cost us to pave a mile of road and how much it is r;oing to cost us to upgrade and reconstruct a l'lile of road.

We called a tender there and we have a certain amount allocated for that job and when we get the tenders in we will take a look at the total cost of the ones we have called and if there is any money left over we will certainly pive consideration to expanding t>!hat wight be done in the area. But we are draftinp; a reply to the rood neople. I appreciate their concern and if I was in their position I would ask no less than the minsiter's resignation. I am certainly most - MR. NF.ARY: Inaudible. MR.

RO!TSSEAU: - JT1ost disappointed that they feel that there is any disrerard or'hlatant disrepard 1 as they used it because certainly there is no hlatant disregard for anybody in this Province as far as I am concerned, We try and do what we can but you know you cannot always not cross somehody somewhere alonp. the line. So I have the teler;ram. I received it this mornini;,;. They will have a reply hopefully sometime today or tomorrow and we will see what harpens from there. >m. NEARY: A favourable reply I hope. ~IR. 1'01iSSF.AU: A reply they will have. 'll'. ~:EMW: A favourahle, Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the sleepy old Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, Would the minister care to tell us what ii, happeninp: now concerninp. the strike at Wabush? Is anybody -tn the minister's clepartment helpinr out, helping parties to get back to the harraininr table? Is the minister involved himself? Tell us what is happening? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. !ION. E. MAYNARD, Minister of l.!anpower and Industrial Relations: Mr.

Speaker, I have ans,,1ered that question about five times already and I do not know what else I can report to the House. Obviously it is not getting through 481Z

April 22, 1975 Tape No. 1618 NM - 3 the thick head of the honourable Member for Bell Island . I do not know what he wants me to do to get involved. Our department has been involved since back in January sometim e, through conciliation services, unless the member is tryin g deliberately to get a confrontation with the union-management effort in Wabush, I do not know what other reason he would have for answering the question. Our department is available. it has made its services available, at any time the union or the management or both request it and there is nothin r, more that I can say.

There is nothing 11\0re that should be said. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker , 1 have a question for the honourable 4813

April 22, 1975 Tape no, 1619 Page 1 - mw the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: In view of the growing concern over the proposed dump site on the Ruby Line, has the minister given any further thought to upgrading the present site at Robin Hood Bay? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. HON. G. DAWE (Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment): Mr. Speaker, some months ago I wrote the St.

John's Council outlining what steps they should take to upgrade and properly maintain the present site at Robin Hood Bay. There are some people, of course, who feel that Robin Hood Bay could continue to be used. Experts tell us that it is good for around fifty years. But, of course, if a decision is ever made to the effect that Robin Hood Bay would have to be the continued site then there will be many improvements required and, of course, the method of management would certainly have to change drastically.

There would have to be a much larger annual expenditure~and at the present time which is around $80,000 a year, Itwould probably be ten times that much. But in any event it would cost almost that much annually to maintain even a sanitary land filled site elsewhere outside St. John's. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I have a question, Mr. Speaker. Does it then follow in the minister's opinion or is it the minister's opinion that it then follows that the dump1or whatever the eloquent name for it is,will remain at Robin Hood Bay? MR. DAWE: It certainly does not, Mr. Speaker.

I am just saying that experts have told us that it could be used and could last for about fifty years. But the member for St. John's South has suggested an alternate site. And I have through the media and so on suggested that now the councils should get together, the councils which are going to use this proposed site, should get together and have it studied by a group of consultants. 4814

April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1619 Page 2 - mw MR. ROBERTS: A further question;in view of the fact, if I may mix my metaphors, Mr. Speaker, that the minister is washing his hands of the issue, could the minister indicate when the matter will be resolved and the people of the Metropolitan area will have some indication of exactly where the garbage generated by Metropolitan St. John's will be d"isposed off? MR.. DAWE: Well, since the question of an alternate site came up at the meeting and the member for St.

John's South recommended it, of course, the winter set in, and we have had heavy snow,and there has been heavy frost. And under these conditions it is not possible to properly survey the site and study it. I do not think it is even possible today because there is still frost in the ground, and we have to know how much over-burden there is at that particular site. MR.. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate what the minister says but can he give us some indication? I mean the snow will go. Can we give us some indication of when we might expect an answer?

This issue has ,been, you know, very much a live one for the last two or three years, and we seem to be in many ways no closer to a decision now. But meanwhile while, you know, the minister is studying and dittering and doidling the garbage continues to pile up. _!m.. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I was in over or near the site proposed only this weekend, and I would say that only the Almighty can answer that question adequately because there is still about five or six feet of snow in that araa and surely there is frost under that snow.

We will just have to wait until whatever time it is taken away from us and the fnst leaves the ground so that we can get out there and have a look at it. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary . Would the minister care to indicate what particular site he looked at over the weekend? Was it the one on the Ruby Line? MR. DAWE: MR. NEARY: I said I was out in the general area of the Witless Bay Line. What site was the minister on over the weekend? 4815

April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1619 Page 3 - mw MR. DAWE: I was not on the site. I said I passed by it, you know, the area, the general area, I did not have to be in on the site . AN HON . MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER : Order, t>lease! MR. NEARY: No. Mr. Speaker, would the minister care to indicate to the House whether or not the consultants have already reported on a site in the minister's own district, on the Foxtrap Access? MR. DAWE: I never suggested on the Foxtrap Access Road. MR. NEARY: But is there a rel)ort? MR. DAWE: No, there is no report. 1:fR. NEARY: What about the Ruby Line?

Did the consultants do a report on the Ruby Line? MR. DAWE: Well if you have not seen that one, brother, you are really missing. MR. NEARY: No, I have not seen it, I want the minister to stand up in the Ho~se like a man and tell us. MR . SPEAKER: MR.NF.ARY: MR. DAWE: Order, please! Come on. Sit down boy, Sit down for jumpins sake and get on with order of business MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: Come on Pooh. Come on Pooh, get up and tell us. Order, please! ORDERS OF THE DAY: Motion one, Bill no. 23. On motion of the Hon.

Minister of Health, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Medical Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Education, a bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University (Pensions) Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 48iti

April 22, 1975. Tape 1620 RH - 1 On motion of the Hon. Minister of F.ducation, a bill, "An Act Further To .Amend The Education (Teacher Training) Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Education, a bill, "An Act Further To .Amend The Schools Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Colllilluni­ cations, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon.

Minister of Public Works and Services, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department of Public Works and Services Act, 1973," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Social Services, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Welfare of Children Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Agreement Ratified, Confirmed And Adopted By And Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Leitch Gold Mines Limited (Agreement) Act, 1964, And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To That Agreement," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion that the House resolve itself into C011D11ittee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: ?-fR. CHAIRMAN: 1001-01. The honourable the Minister of Health. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I rose on - MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognized the honourable the Minister of Health. MR. ROBERTS: If I may rise on a point of order, Sir. When the Committee rose on Friday I had the floor.

I would like to conclude my remarks,if I might,and I would ask that I be recognized for that purpose, Sir. I believe the rule in Committee, our rules say the rules in Committee are thesame as that in the House. The rules of the House specify that when a debate is adjourned the member who has the floor when the debate adjournes 481'/

April 22, 1975. Tape 1620 RH - 2 is entitled to carry on when the debate res\Dlles and I had the floor when the Committee rose. 481ti

April 22, 1975 Tape 1621 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. CROSBIE: I do not think there is a similar rule in Committee but if there is some reason the honourable gentleman has to leave - MR. ROBERTS: I do, I have to go. MR. CROSBIE: Well,I think the minister agrees with that. MR. ROBERTS: Well,I will not be very long,either. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Oh well. MR. BARRY: To the point of order. Well,if it is not to be a ruling,! do not think that is the rule. I believe that when the Committee rises and reports progress it starts from scratch when it comes back again the next day,on my reading of the rules.

It may be - MR. ROBERTS: In view of the fact, if the minister will let me do it for a minute, it, you know, it is a moot point and we will argue it another time, Your Honour. All I want to say was that I understand the minister met this morning with Dr. Thomas and some reprsentatives of the Grenfell Association, and I wonder if the minister,when he speaks, I know he will want to deal with the matter,if he could give us some assurance, I do not know what went on at the meeting. I was not there, you know, I have no idea what went on.

But I am wondering if he could give us an assurance, and this is what I seek,that the I.C.A. will be provided with sufficient funds that they will not have to reduce the services which they are now offering. And, of course, that was that threat of a reduction affecting St. Barbe North and my own constituency and Labrador South and Labrador North and St. Barbe South, the five constituencies that were subject of quite extensive, and quite heated discussion in the Committee on Friday. So I do not ~,ant to go over the issue again ,al though if the minister wishes to reopen the matter I will p:ladly reopen it.

But what I seek now is an assurance,presumably coming out of the meetings this morning and as a result of what was said Friday,that the I.G.A. will be provided with sufficient funds to enable them to continue to offer the level of services and the types of services that they now offer. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Health. DR. ROWE: Hr. Chainnan, I do not wish to get involved in the gross issue on this matter. It was thoroughly discussed on Friday. And tt.at 4819

April 22, 1975 Tape 1621 (Aftemoon) PK - 2 the Hon. the Premier and myself and others met this morning with Dr. Thomas and a delegation from I,G.A. I would think that the Premier would wish to make any specific statement. But I think it suffices for me to say that the I.G.A, were informed that their request for further funds in this respect will be considered in the total context of needs of hospitals throughout the Province. It will not be dealt with in isolation and we have given the assurance that in due course their matter would be investigated and they would be so informed.

I think that that is a reasonable statement which I think the Premier himself may wish to enlarge on. That is all I would say on that issue, Mr. Chairman . I would like to go back if I may and refer to questions which were asked on Friday. I think I will start and work my way back which is the easiest way. And the final question I was asked by the honourable Member for Labrador North, on the question of what has the Department of Health done regarding the Snowden Report and the formal recolllllendations on Health in the Snowden Report?

Very briefly the reconunendations in the Snowden Report numbered from firty-two to fifty-seven included Health specifically, and he asked a specific question regarding air transportation charges. And the answer from the department is that there is no charge whatever by I.G.A. for transportation in any government aircraft. And free air transportation has been provided for many years for all who cannot afford to pay and for those who are medically indigent, that is for those upon whom payment would impose hardship.

In the case of ellll!rgencies evacuated by air ambulance with the Province, both necessary air and ground ambulance services are supplied free. I think it is only fair to say that it is not economically feasible to provide free medically authorized air transportation without the Province to all residents of Labrador because some other areas of the Province, notably the Southwest Coast are equally isolated. I think if free services were provided to those who could afford to pay such a benefit could hardly be resisted elsewhere.

However, I would like to make the point that there is no charge whatever by I.G.A. for transportation of any patients in any government 4820

April 22, 197S, Tape 1621 (Afternoon aircraft. I could add to this that the I.G.A. operates themselves an all-weather twin Naujo aircraft which is provided entirely by and is operated by the I.G.A. with no grant from government for this particular plane. The aircraft travels mainly between st. Anthony and Goose Bay, and I think that air fares at regular rates are charged for those who can afford to pay in all cases whether or not they are emergencies. And this is an I.G.A. operation, it. 1:,8 not a government operation. And I think that sort of answers that par.ticular question.

His next quesUon was with regards to the nursing station facilities at two particular places on the Coast of Labrador, at Davis Inlet and at Postville. Well, at Davis Inlet 48 21 PK - 3

April 22, 1975. Tape 1622 RII - 1 there is population of approximately 200 and an expansion of the existing nursing station that is presently underway. This expansion includes staff accommodation for one nurse,but there are no in-patient beds which would not be feasible economically when you think of the population of 200. The cost :Implication already approved is approximately $30,0(10. The annual operating cost will be about $15,000 and of this amount ninety per cent will be recoverable from the Government of Canada. This question regarding Postville,and here again a problem, there is a population of 130.

There is a lay dispenser at present and plans exist to train this person to a nursing assistant level and currently the community which is supported by IGA are applying for the Local Incentive Project grant to cover the cost of labour for the purpose of construction of a permanent clinic similar to that which we operate at Davis Inlet. His third question, I think a rather important one,and on the subject of more liaison between the people and the IGA and the whole question of hoards.

I think I have to say here that the policy of this government has been and is that as and where possible we prefer to have neople of the co11U11unity take an interest in their health operations, take an interest in the health facilities and in the local management and local government of such operations. We certainly would welcome an extension of the policy of community participation. In fact, I helieve the honourable Member for Labrador North himself is Chairman of the Community Health Council in the area. I would think that the basic answer to his question is yes.

We certainly agree with local participation, inclusion of local personnel on hospital boards,and I think that it is a matter really for liaison between the people and the IGA and certainly government is quite happy to assist the public in endeavouring to organize such discussions and such arrangements. The policy is to wherever possible encouraee local participation. He spoke about the question of Happy Valley as a regional hospital for Labrador. Now, as is well known the Happy Valley,or the Paddon Memorial Hospital,is operated by ICA.

It is in a very exciting community really when you think that it has been said on one side the development of the Lower Churchill and the other side 482l

April 22, 1975. Tape 1622 Rll - 2 the possibility of oil exploration that Happy Valley medically will become a very worthwhile centre, In this regard, a delegation from the Town Council in Happy Valley met recently with the Premier, myself and others to discuss the future of this hospital and it was agreed there would be certain expansions to take care of the needs arising from the develop­ ment of the Lower Churchill and the increase in population of work- force that is settled in Happy Valley within the last two or three years. This expansion is underway.

Additional staff have been approved and one would hope that later this year there will be very specific developments in this regard. The next questions deals with the whole question of industrial health. Certainly, as I have said in my opening statement, we in the department are extremely concerned regarding the industrial health problems. t would remind the Committee again that we advertised in journals in the United Kingdom, in Canada and the United States for personnel. We received three applications from doctors who were trained in industrial medicine.

We did not feel that either of these doctors was of the calibre or the training that we wish to have within the Province and so we are re-advertising but again,as I mentioned in my statement, it is quite possible we will have to take one of our own personnel and have him sent away to take the requisite training for I think that overall we must protect the health of the people when we take about industrialization. In this regard, the honourable Member for Bell Island asked a question recently on certain operations within the Province. I think this might be an appropriate time to answer some of his questions.

He will undoubtedly remember that I have all ready answered the question in which he asked regarding Buchana and I now 482;:J

April 22, 1°75 Tape 1623 (afternoon) IB-1 answer his question with regard to the phosphorus plant at ERCO. The health hazards encountered in this operation are exposure to dust when the phosphorus rock is unloaded in the mill and also in the pellet plant where the rock is crushed and pelletized. Now, constant monitoring of the air contaminants is carried out, Air contaminants mentioned are carbon monoxide, phosphene, sodium fluorides. The monitoring is carr1ed out on a rep;ular basis hy the Department of Mines and Energy and the company with the results being sent to the Department of Health.

When I conclude this statement on the industrial plants or the plants where there are potential prohlems in health, my colleague, the ~inister of Mines and Energy is going to give the Committee some information regarding the imput of his department into this very important aspect of the health programmes. But, I would wish to say that as far as the Health Department is concerned, that during the period of operation of ERCO there has not heen a case of any lung abnormality discovered.

ERCO themselves have a part­ time medical officer, a dental officer and a full-time industrial health nurse and their medical and dental clinics. The number of workers is approximately 400. There are about fifty workers employed in the Villa Marie portion of this operation where some dust exposure is encountered. No report of any lung abnormality was ever discovered. Now, I think that my colleague may wish also to refer to a study recently undertaken by the federal government who wi 11 be looking into the whole question of affect on the vegetation in the ERCO or Long Far~our area.

He has detailed information on this study which indicates to us that there is an increase in fluoride levels in the vegetation. An~, I will leave my colleague to - MP.. BARRY: ~layhe you had better do that. You have a statement. DR. ROWE: Well, the statement is - I would just I as far as this particular aspect is concerned, I could inform the Committee that a study of the fluoride concentration in berries in Long Harbour is undertaken by the environmental

section of the Newfoundland Forest Research Center and was prompted by concern of the Province regarding fluoride damage to vegetation in the Long Harbour area. For health reasons it was decided 4824

April 22, 1975 Tape 1623 (afternoon) Tll-2 fluoride levels in berries near the phosphorus plant should be determined so that the necessary restrictions on berry picking could he implemented. It was also indicated that the fluoride concentration in berries which are closest to the area of operation showed a higher content than those picked from controlled areas. So that, I think, is fairly reasonable.

But, I would like to say that after evaluating the amount of the daily dietary ingestion of fluorides excluding berries and the Rbsorption and excretion patterns of fluorides in humans in relation to age and general health, it is said the consumption of berries picked in the Long Harbour area does not indicate a significant health hazard. All I am saying is that we recommended upon general principles and the principles of hygiene and health)that the picking of berries in the vacinity of any large industrial plant - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. DR.

ROWE: Not of the levels which we have been told exist at the moment. How it would be a year or two years as far as - what we are saying, for general information of people, that if you live or you want to pick berries in the vicinity of a large industrial plant of any kind, you would be very unwise. There are lots of other areas where they can be obta1ned. - HR. NEARY: Is there any problem (Inaudible) DR. ROWE: No, there is no indication, Sir, among the people of the area, exactly that there is any specific problem. We are trying to ensure that no problem is going to develop.

I would like to pass on now to - I am answering your question by the way; does the Iron Ore Company of Canada in Labrador r.ity - HR. NEARY: The pelletizing plant. DR. ROWE: Right. I would like to say that as a result of abnormal findings in chest X-rays of certain miners working in the pelletizing plant of this company, a full industrial study has been undertaken. One study carried out by industrial health officials from the Trudeau Institute, Saranac Lake, has been requested by the company.

And a similar study has been undertaken at the request of the Provincial Department of Mines and Energy and our own provincial Health Department. This was done by the Health Protection Branch of the federal government. 4025

April 22, 1Q75 Tape 1623 (afternoon) IB-3 No,.., the fina l resu l ts of these studies are not yet availat>le, but, all workers who are empl oyed in the dusty areas of t he plant have a pre -placement and annual medica l examinat i on which includes a chest X-r ay. As stated above the res ult of abnormalities in the chest X-rays, as a re~ult Qf these abnormalities, fu rther investigations were inst·tuted . Ml t1m·ol RABLF. !EMRF.R: Are there any kn own cases? nR. ROWE: Now, here are the figures if you are - sixty-four workers who have worked for a period of over eight years in the concentration plant were for one re;i.son or another further examined. 482 '

April 22, 1975 Tape No. 1624 NM - 1 Nine were discovered to have dust in their lungs as diagnosed benigna by biopsy, nine, and yet we take the figure that the total work force is about 3,000, the number of people adjust to the atmosphere was about 1,2000. So really if you take nine cases that have had to be investigated out of this potential number, that that is not at the moment of any serious concern but it infers to us that we have to become much more strict in the controls - AN RON. MEMBER: Does that prove silicosis? DR. ROWE: In a certain number of these cases, yes. MR. NEARY: The whole nine or - DR.

ROWE: Not the whole nine, nine were discovered to have dust in their lungs as diagnosed by lung biopsy. And all these men have been re­ moved from the concentration plant area and employed in other dust free areas of the country. One of these cases has to be considered as a certain disability and has been referred to the Worlanen's Compensation Board and receiving - one case has been referred to the Compensation Board. I think again my colleague might expand _it for you, a little more information on this aspect of it. I would like to touch now on - MR. NEARY: Is there going to be a continuous watch .kept on this?

DR. ROWE: Yes. MR. NEARY: There is. DR. ROWE: Very much a continuous watch, monitoring studies will be discussed by my colleague. To touch on the St. Lawrence mines _, and this is the story with which you are well familiar,but the operation by Alcan employs about 400 workers. The health hazards of this operation are radiation and dust exposure and the workers here have a pre-placement and an annual medical examination which includes a chest x-ray, Medical officers employed part-time by the company are responsbile for the maintenance of health st_~~dards. And I would to pay attention to the next part.

Prior to 1960 workers were detected to have developed lung abnormality in the chest x-rays. They were eventually diagnosed as lung cancer and disposed of. But strict radiation control was introduced and 4827

April 22, 1CJ75 Tape No. 1624 NM - 2 by con s tant monitorinr: of radiation levels bein g carried out,and the excess ra~iation being removed from the affected areas, and control reinstituted. :,ow the re have been no case of lung cancer among workers who have hPen ell11'loyed since l'lfiO when the strict rarliation control was ins ti t 11 t cd , ~ ~. NEARY: Is that a long enough period? JJR. ROHf.: Hell,you know~that is fifteen years.

That is pretty good. r.. ut with the strict controls - the people who had the five deaths were people who were workinp there prior to 1960 1but since 1960 when the controls ,-,ent on there have been none. The other one you asked about was Advocate Mines, Baie Verte. Hll. NEARY: !JR. ROHE: Ancl nuchans . r,uchanc; I l1ave already given you. t tabled it in the House. This mine produces asbestos fibres from the ore mined in the area, in the crushing operation handles up to 1,000 tons of ore a day, produces approximately 250 tons of asbestos fibres a day.

There is a total work force of approximately 450 men of who~ 133 work in the sort of crusher in the dust area ancl it is in the crusher and the mill areas that the rl ust rets into the atmosphere. The Department of Mines and Energy h~s la1~ down acceptable levels or dust that may be maintained to protect the health of the workers. And constant monitorinr of the dust levels is carried out by both the company and the Department of Hines and Energy. Pre-placement and annual medical examinations are done on every miner.

These examinations include a physical, a chest x-ray, ancl this new pulmonary function test that we have institutf'd and these people are advised also to curtail or cut down smoking while they are working within the crushing pl~-nt. And the Advocate Mines have bf'f'n in operation for eleven years and no case of asbestosis has been detected in an y of the workers. ~low the honourable the Leader of the Oppositon on Friday asked for the ashestosis content in fibres and water and I think that my colleague in reneral, so I would like to let him give his information on this subject 4828

April 22, 1975 Tape No. 1624 NM - 3 and go back then to answering the other question~ which were asked of me on Friday. MR. BARRY: This, Mr. Speaker, this is an area where there are several related jurisdictions within the various . departments.

The honourahle Minister of Health, the Department of Mines and Ener gy , Mines Inspection Branch, the Workmen's Compensatio n Board and their investigation staff, to a certain extent the Department of Provincial Affairs and Environment, all of these have certain responsiblities in various areas, and the Manpower and Industrial Relations also in certain types of inspections with respect to possible 11!0re accidental hazards than occupational health hazards has also responsibility.

There have been certain steps taken by this government over the last several years in an attempt to improve the situation with respect to the prevention of industrial or occupational diseases, with respect to minimizing as much as possible the risk of occupational health problems, minimizing 4829

April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1625 Page 1 - mw the health hazard of working in Newfoundland industrial enterprises. One of the things that we found was that there was no co-ordination of the X-rays that were being taken,For example, the miners' X-rays - they were all miners except some who qualified under a grandfather clause which we since removed- had to have an annual miners' medical. But there was no provision for having all these X-rays come to the one central registry. MR. NEARY: Did not Dr. Peters make a study? MR. BARRY: Dr.

Peters was involved with us prior to his retirement and was kept on for a time afterwards, passed his retirement to get this thing started and since then Dr. Knowling is carrying on, and we now have a Central X-ray Registry where we hope to be able to do a number of things. First,you had previously people leaving from one area and going to work in a dust laden environment for another company, say, and there was no follow-up to make sure that his previous X-rays were looked at as well as his new ones.

We also had the situation where, unless you have a central registry, there is a possibility that you could miss certain problems that are developing, So we have the central X-ray monitoring being carried out now. It has been given to the Department of Health, this responsibility. And there are routines, procedures whereby doctors, employed by companies to do these X-rays, must forward X-rays to the Department of Health. We have also brought in a requirement that there be. a pulmonary function test given in conjunction with the miners' medical.

The initial test will not show anything but you will from then on have a base line against which the operations of the person's lungs can be compared to again attempt to see if there are any problems developing. The third thing that is being done of some significance is the fact that a Division of Occupational Health has been created within the Department of Health. Unfortunately that position has not yet been filled as mentioned by the Minister of Health 1 but the position is now being advertised. '0''0 4o.:>

April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1625 Page 2 - mw Next we have had a complete review of the inspection responsibilities of the various department, because we have discovered that there were gaps and there may still be, This review is still going on. For example, the Deparmtnet of Mines had a responsibility for inspection in connection with ERCO in the quarry.

But inside the plant itself, apart from the general over-view that the Department of Health has anywhere in the Province with respect to potential health problems, there was no specific responsibility given a department to go in and monitor within the ER.CO plant icself, This responsibility has now been allocated to the Department of Mines and Energy, and we have clearly defined the responsibilities between the various departments and between the Worklllen's Compensation Board to ensure that there will be no p~•blem areas overlooked, to ensure that all the gaps are filled and complete inspection of all industrial enterprises are carried out.

And another area where we have started work in connection with I.O.C., as I will mention in a moment, but where additional work must be done right around the Province, and that is with respect to the standards that hawe laid down for levels of dust, This is an area where we cannot be complacent, either with the potential silicosis danger or with respect to the potential a~beatos fibre danger,for example,or the potential radiation hazard at St. Lawrence. All of these places have certain levels set. And we must keep these under constant review to ensure that they are set at the proper levels.

And I will go into some of the problems in this in a moment. But first I would like to discuss the situation with respect to the Iron Ore Company of Canada, because this has been a matter of some concern obviously to the people in Labrador City, to the men and women working in the mine and concentrator,and to goveTI1111ent. Now we have received one of the reports that haB been 4831

April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1625 Page 3 - mw carried out, the report carried out by the company'a consultants, consultants retained by the company itself. We have not yet received the report that we requested from the Federal Department of Health and Welfare. That 483l

April 22, 1975. Tape 1626 RH - l report is being compiled now. The work is being carried out, the tests carried out. We expect that report to be received around mid May.

But the preliminary report, this is only a preliminary report by Trudeau Institute, the consultants retained by the company, indicate that the main toxic substance that appears to be causing the respiratory problem is quartz dust or silica, that there is not the unknown factor, apparently,that the experts were saying there was likely to be, that it boils down purely and simply to unacceptable levels of dust, silica laden dust in the mill and in the concentrator at IOC.

The concentration of fiber, there is a certain amount of fiber, of a type of asbestos fiber, in the air as well that is found in a part of the ore that goes through the mill but that fiber has been calculated at less than one-tenth of the acceptable threshold limit value or one-tenth of the acceptable standard. So it does not appear to be a problem.

But the high levels of silica laden dust is apparently the problem and we hope to obtain confinnation of this when we get the further reports from the Trudeau Institute who have also evaluated the monitoring procedures that we have been carrying out, that the department, the mine inspectors have been carrying out to determine whether these are still ade~uate and whether they should be revised. The threshold limit value, the standard that has been applied all along is seven million particles per cubic foot and ~,e are not sure whether this standard must be changed at this stage.

We are awaiting the opinion from the federal department before we make a decision in this area. The Trudeau Report stated that more than half of the samples taken during the December and January survey that they carried out were from three to seven times the threshold limit value, three to seven times the standard or level that was set. Now, we have held discussions with the company. We have also met with the employees, the union representatives of the employees.

There were lengthy discussions carried out and finally this department laid down certain directives to the company and set certain action which we required the company to take both in the mill and in the concentrator. This was prior to 483J

April 22, 1975. Tape 1626 RH - 2 the receipt of the Trudeau Report but we proceeded on the assumption that whether it was an unknown factor or whether it was merely the silica tha·t was causing the probl em) 1n any event, it was a dust related problem and we had to start action immediately to get the dust l evels reduced. The company has agreed wi.th the recommendations, has agr eed to implement the directives that we sent to it.

As a matter of fact it did not have very much choice because under the authority the mine safety regulations of the department, once it set directives, if the company must follow then the COlJIJ)any has to follow t hem. So they have said that they are 111aking a total commitment to getting the dust levels to an acceptable level and they have indicated that they e.xpect to be able to achieve this goal in approximately six months time. I should not say in six months time. That was as of, over a month ago now.

So in approximately another five months they expec t to have the dust levels down to an acceptable level in all parts of the mill and concentrator. Let us see what else I have here. 4834

...... April 22, 1975 Tape N,:,. 1627 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: The same problem does ,not exist to the same extent with respect to the Wabush Mines because they have a wet process within the mill but there are a c,:,up:I.e of stations, _four stations around the load out building 1where the dust levels are being exceeded and the mines inspectors are working with the company there to get these to acceptable levels.

Now we have decided that because this situation got to the stage it did that, and because there is always the danger that the pressure of production, the pressure on a company to keep up production may lead to not sufficient emphasis being put on keeping these dust levels down in the future, once we get them down to an acceptable level this government has committed itself to having a continuous government presence at Labrador City to ensure that the proper dust levels are kept and in order to do this we have undertaken to have a dust technician employed who will be constantly monitoring the dust concentrations and we have also made arrangements and are in the process of attempting to recruit another mines inspector, one of whose main responsibiities will be the continuous monitoring of the iron ore operations in Labrador.

As I say, we believe that some form of continuous government presence is needed to keep the pressure on the companies, to compensate for the) I suppose,natural inclination or natural pressure that exists on the companies to keep up production, sometimes to the detriment of the dust levels that have been sent, but we are determined to compensate for this by having our people on the spot on a continuous basis to make sure that the problem does not get out of hand the way it did over the past several years, mainly since the expansion started at I.O.C., that is when the thing started to really go to pot.

Now there are other areas of the Province where we also have potential health hazards related to mining operations, relating to industrial enterprises generally. Our inspectors will have responsibility for all mining-related activies, not just the supervision of safety in the mines themselves, but inspecting conditions in plants related to mining 4835

April 22, 197'5 Tape No. 1627 NM - 2 activities. We still have a couple of areas where I believe we have to more clearly l define jurisdictions between the departments,such as responsibilities for the Come-By-Chance Refinery. Within the Come­ By-Chance Refinery you have hazardous 1 potentially harmful material within the refinery that could cause danger to health. So we have to ensure that proper investigation and inspection is carried out in the refinery,as in all other industrial enterprises.

I am not sure that this should be the responsiblity of the Department of Mines and Energy, This may be a case where the better jurisdiction is in with the Workmen's Compensation Board. But wherever, there has got to be some department of government responsible to ensure that any potential occupational health hazards are alleviated. Now we are in the process of reviewing procedures, reviewing standards in all mininr, related industries within the Province.

And we are prepared if necessary, we do not know if it will be necessary, but we are prepared if necessary to have a corranission look into what should be done to control to a minimum occupational hazards within Newfoundland. Because we do not subscribe to the theory that human heings are expendible. We do not subscribe to the theory that you should treat them as disposable, as if they were machinery, or parts of the phsycial plant - AN HON. MEMBER: Throw aways. MR. ~ARRY: -Throw away after so many years, we do not subscribe to that theory, Mr. Chairman.

Now, we have to face certain hard realities of life too you know. It may be that in certain industries there is no way you can either economically or technologically achieve a certain safe working environment without,for example,requiring continuous wearing of masks. 483ti

April 22, 1975. Tape 1628 RH - 1 It may be that in some cases that is essential. It may be that in other areas we conclude that the industry itself is just not the type of industry we want in the Province,in the case of new industry,and looking at the information coming from some of our older industries I have my doubts there as well as to whether some should have ever gotten in. But there you have it. You have the constant balance that must be kept be?een the desire for people to have employment and the desire for people to be able to live like human beings.

There is an interesting book put out in the United States called The Expendihle Americans, the incredible story of how tens of thousands of American men and women die each year of preventable, industrial disease. What is in this book has relevance to the Canadian situation as well. Indeed, they specifically refer to the asbestos situation in Quebec. We have an asbestos mine in Newfound­ land. I have some comments I want to make on it in a moment. If I could just read some of the co1!11llents in the flyleaf of the book here.

His thesis is that there is too close a relationship between - and he is not too complimentary. I do not think the same thing can be said here in Newfoundland because from my experience the doctors, particularly the, is it the Thoracic Society, I believe it is, that are specialists dealing with respirable diseases? They are very concerned about the problems stemming from industrial hazards, occupational hazards and they have done a lot of good work in this IOC situation for us.

But this author, his thesis is that there is too close a relationship between what he calls the, well he describes it the medical industrial complex, and he talks about the difficulties of establishing that the working conditions of the particular are hazardous when you have the medical people who are mainly involved are at times the employees of the company itself. We do not have, as I say, the same problem, I do not think, in our Province but it is an area where we have to keep a constant vigilance, and a criticism is also made of - MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: OR. ROWE: MR. BARRY: IOC have their own medical doctors.

But the people are - Only part-time. - inspected by their own doctors. They go to their own doctors for - 4831

April 22, 1975. Tape 1628 RH - 2 MR. NEARY: (First

part inaudible) on the payroll of the company involved. MR. nARRY: But anyhow, that is a criticism that this writer makes and I think it is a natural - MR. NEARY: Conflict of interest. MR. BARRY: He has one

chapter entitled conflict of interest. He also points out that often there is just too cozy a relationship between govern­ ment and between industry and this is another thing that we have to watch. We have to make sure we keep the proper prospective. Naturally, we are zealous to insure that we get as much employment for our people as possible. We have got to be careful though that we do not ignore the health aspects, the working conditions, the human side of industry.

Ile points out here that, he says; he painstakingly docU111ents how this entrenched group of industry doctors and consultants allied with key public health officials at various levels of the state federal govern­ ments appear to be involved - and he calls it - in nothing less than the blatant and pervasive effort to, first, BUl)PTess and ignore medical information concerning hazardous substances that are estimated by the government to be not only killin~ 100,000 workers a year but disabling 390 , 000 more. One half a million men and women a year in the United States they say.

Jle says, indeed the feeling grows and it is more feasible for industry to replace the dead and disabled as if they were so much defective machinery than it is to set and enforce adequate safety standards. Ile uncovers a long and dismaying history of corporate and govern­ mental neglect.

He shows how we as a people are playing a vast and intricate game of Russian Roulette by allowing thousands of toxic chemicals and harmful substances to be introduced casually into the work place and the market place without even a rudimentary understanding of their effect upon the health of the millions of workers and consumers who daily come into contact with them. So we are determined as a government that we will not have expendible Newfoundlanders. We are not prepared to accept the concept of expendible Newfoundlanders. 4838

April 22, 1975. Tape 1628 RI! - 3 We want to insure that where possible, where safe working levels can be set, dust levels can be sent to permit people to operate comfortably and safely that these should he set and enforced, strictly enforced. 4839

APril 22, 1975 Tape 1629 (Afternoon) PK - 1 We believe that if there are areas where it is not possible for people to work safely without special equipment then this special equipment must be not only supplied but the regulations requiring the compulsory wearing of 1t must be enforced. And finally we believe that if there are certain types of industries where it is _1ust not safe for men and women to work that we do not want to see these industries developed within our Province.

Specifically with respect to the companies operating now in Newfoundland)ASARCO at Buchans 1 in response to being advised of five cases over recent years of varying degrees of silicosis disability arisinp, out of long term employment in the underground workings at Buchans, and another six cases diagnosed as early stage silicosis but without disability, together with the recommendations of the Dyer Industrial Enquiry Commission 1 additional high volume dust samples were recently taken in January of this year and analyzed for free silica content . And we have j u_st gotten the results of this analysis.

And the results show at least seventeen per cent free silica presently in the mine~much higher than results of previous sampling on file with the department. Now this is not saying that the dust levels are higher, it is sayinp, that the amount of silica in the air at the present time, because of the particular type of ore that is being processed right nm-•,is higher than normal. And therefore, of course, that means that the dust levels should be kept lower than they possibly were kept before.

We intend to do further high volume sampling to affirm this preliminary result and to set an appropriate threshold limit value. We intend to take a survey of air~borne dust concentrates within the mine and nlant to determine the significance,if any, of this higher percentage of free silica in the breathing zone air. And we hope to get this work started immediately. Both the company and the union are aware of the results of these inspections and our intentions up to now. With respect to the Alcan works at St.

Lawrence, as far as radiation is concerned the workings of each of Director Mine including the canal vein, the Tarefare Mine including the blow out vein, and the Blue Beach Mine are monitored by technicians of both the company and 4840

April 22, 1975 Tape 1629 (Afternoon) PK - 2 this department on a regular basis. The company monitors each working place at least once a week at each mine, and the department monitors each working place at least twice a week at Director and once a week at the other mines, as well as rechecking where a high reading is encountered. Now the average readings expressed in working levels, with the suggested working level of one-point-three-zero times ten to the fifth million electron : volts of alpha energy - this is the threshold limit value for this radiation,or the suggested working level.

One­ point-three-zero times ten to the fifth million electron volts of alpha energy per litre of air. And the recent readings over the last three years from 1972 to 1974 indicate that the average readings are much lower than this. For the Director Mine,which is the largest mine where most people are employed,the readings have gone up from point two two as opposed to the safe level of one point three zero, from point two two to point one two to point zero seven over the last three years. This significant decrease in radiation levels is due mainly to more effective use in control of ventilation .

The company provides individual exposure records for each individual whose work takes him into the mine whether daily or infrequently in compliance with the regulations. And at present as far as we can determine, to the best possible information, the standards for safe suggested working levels are being met by the company. The most recent independent study of radiation conditions in the mine was made by Mr. Yourt,a professional engineer,during 1973. We retained him by the Department of Mines and Energy. We got his report in March 1974.

And it contained certain recommendations that have been passed on both to the employer and to the employees, and are in the processing of implementing several of these. We also have a certain dust control at the mine that has to be continuously surveyed and 4841

April 22, 1975 Tape 1630 (afternoon) the last readings we had there was that the dust concentrations are well below the safe limits. With respect to Advocate Mines at Baie Verte, I might say that from the bit of reading that I have done, there appears to be a considerahle amount of controversy as to what the acceptable safe working level or threshold limit value~as they call it,should be with respect to asbestos fibers in the air, the number of asbestos fibers in the air.

The recommended threshold limit value applied to air-borne ashestos dust generated throughout the mine and mill complex to the IB-1 end of 1974 was 5 million particles per cubic foot of total respirable dust. They define a fiber,by the way, as a piece of material whose length is three times its width.

That is the arbitrary definition of fiher. ~ow, the standard of S million parts per cuhic foot was recommended by the American Conference of Governmental, Industrial Hygienists up to 196~ at which time they gave notice of intended change in the standard to one of either 2 miJlion parts per cubic foot or twelve fihers per milliliter of air, twelve fibers greater than five microns in lenr,th. It was not until 1974 that the conference finally adopted the fiber standard,that is the numher of fibers per a particular unit of air.

Instead of saying the number of particles, the numbers of mi 11 ions of particles per cubic feet, particles could be both fiber and dust. They talk now in terms of the number of fibers greater than so many microns in length, greater than five microns in length per milliliter of air or per cublic centimeter of air. In 1974 the American Conference of Governmental, Industrial Hygienists ,which has been setting the standard in this area for North America, finally set a new stanc1ard of five fibers per milliliter of air as the threshold limit value. Thia was in 1974.

In December of 1974 the chief mines inspector for Newfoundland advised the company at naie Verte that it intended to implement the fiber per milliliter standard, and therefore the previous method of assessment and control of dust or asbestos f1ber would have to be changed. We have requested the company 4842

\ April 22, 1975 Tape 1630 (afternoon) IB-2 to arrange for the necessary equipment to implement this new method. This can only be done over a period of time because there is significant cost and it takes time to install the new equipment. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: The number of fibers. They are talking about five fibers per milliliter of air, five fibers per milliliter of air, five fibers greater than five microns in length. Now, I am not satisfied that this is still the acceptable standard even though it is a new one recommended in 197 4 by this North .Amrrican group.

It appears to be the standard being applied in the industry across North America. We have a couple of problems. We have first that the standard is laid down more for plants, manufacturing plants where they are using asbestos material. It may be that different standards should be applied for mining operations. But, secondly, we find that in Britian there is a significantly stricter standard set. In Britian 1 the honourable Member for Bell Island might be interested, in Britian they have the standard of two fibers per milliliter of air as opposed to the five fibers that has been recently set in North America.

At year~ end, the October to December, 1974 survey of the sixty-three stations at the asbestos mine in Baie Verte showed that sixty-one of the stations were within the 5 million particles per cubic foot, the previous standard that had been applied. Sixty-one of the stations were within the safe standard and only two stations exceeded the standard, and these two did not all the time exceed it. But, at the time 4843

April 22, 1975 Tape 1631 (afternoon) IB-1 of this test they did exceed it, So, the situation there looked fairly good with respect to the standards as they applied last year. Now, as we improve the standards 1 of course, as we make them more stringent, then presumably more of the stations or areas around the plant will exceed this new standard and it will take a certain time for the new levels to be met.

Unfortunately, there is no way you can directly compare the two different standards that are applied in this industry, the number of million particles per cubic feet as compared to the number of fibers per milliliter. But, 2 million parts per cubic foot is about equivalent to twelve fibers per milliliter,as far as we can determine.

The mines inspection people are now evaluating the results of the first quarter report from Advocate Mines to determine from both the fiber and dust particle concentrations reported a reasonable time period for the company to be expected to comply with the new standard throughout :!ts complex. Members may he aware of the fact that there has been a recent serious problem exposed at the asbestos mine in Quebec where some sixty, I think, in excess of sixty per cent of the working population were found to have various stages of asbestosis. Now, we do not want to see - MR.

NEARY: They have established the standard of five fibres per milliliter. '-11l. HARRY: They may have them now but they did not have them p rev:! ously. AN HONOURABLF. J'AEMJlF.P: Inaudible. "R. llMlPY: This is the reason I pointed out that that standard may he too high.

I have asked our mines inspection people to communicate with the government of Quebec to find out what their experience has ~een, to find out what they are prepared to doitoo,and what they believe should be done to alleviate the problem and hopefully we can learn by other peoples' errors here and avoid having similar situations develop in the Province. So, basically, Mr. Chairman, that is all I have to say on that. I am sorry it took so long hut when you get into an area that affects the health and welfare of Newfoundlanders you have to be careful 4844

April 22, 1975 Tape 1631 (afternoon) IB-2 that you have your facts right and we have to remain aware of the effect of what we say upon the people who are working in the mining operations around the Province,in various industries around the Province. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to take a moment to say that it is good to hear the reassurance of both the Minister of Health and the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, that they are keeping a very close watch on some of the hot spots, if you want to put it that way, in Newfoundland, some of the areas that have very severe pollution.

There are about five, I think, and the minister outlined them there, five major sources of pollution that could endanger the lives of the employees in this Province. Namely, Sir, starting down here at the ERCO plant, the phosphorus plant at Long Harbour, the mine at St. Lawrence, tbe mine at Buchans, the pelletizing plant at Labrador City, Iron Ore Company of Canada and the asbestos mine at Baie Verte. These are all hot spots, Sir, and they require continuous study. They need to be watched carefully twenty-four hours a day.

I was glad to hear about some of the plans and proposals that have been implemented by the Minister of Mines. Some of the technical information given out by the minister,! was rather baffled by some of it. But, I did remember the other day when they were talking about the asbestosis over in the Province of Quebec that they consider five fibers per milliliter of air to be too high. The minister agreed with me there when I interrupted him and suggested to him that this is a big issue in the Province of Quebec at the present time.

The minister raised a number of other matters, Sir, that were very interesting and very reassuring. One interesting point that was raised by the minister - I do not know how widespread this is in Newfoundland at the present time, Sir - but there was a time when all the big mining companies retained their own doctors. 4845

April 22, 1975 Tape NO. 1632 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: They either retained them on a full-time basis or on a par-t­ time basis, and perhaps the minister - AN HON . ~MUER: !audible. MR. NF..ARY: No, they were retained. DR. ROWE: Are you referring to the medical examiners? MR. NEARY: They were retained, well - DR. RO{,ffi: Appointed as Jnedical examiners. MR. NEARY: No, they were in private practice. In some cases they were full time for the companies. In most cases I would say that they were in private practice but retained by the company. They were being paid a retainer.

I know DOSCO, 1 can tell the minister that when DOSCO - DF. ROWE: But he was not entirely DOSCO. MR. NEARY: No, no, this is what I said. They were in private practice but paid a retainer by the company and there may or may not have been a conflict of interest but I alway had the impression myself that a doctor in that position would be inclined, you know,if he was pushed, in the crunch, he might be inclined to lean a little bit, to be a little bit lenient towards the company and I am glad to hear now that this situation is dyinp, out in Newfoundland.

But I believe there are a number of instances of where doctors, although they are still in private practice, I do not know of any instance now where a company has a doctor employed full time. DR. ROWE: The last one I think was Bowaters. 11.!R. NEARY: nowaters was the last one. Tm. ROW'E: As far as I know. MR. NEARY: But I would suspect, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps the minister could enlighten mP in this regard, I would suspect that there are a number of instances still in Newfoundland where companies, big companies, retain a rlocto_r, they do not pay him the fee for service, they pay him a ret ,dner.

Now 1 no not know how widespread it is - DR. ROHJ1.: I know ERCO does . 'It?. NEARY: f.Rl'.:fl does. nP.. ROl,:J1.: And r think probably 1'.lcan of St. Lawrence does. 4840

April 22, 1975 Tape No. l!i32 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: They pay him a retainer?

Well I do not know if that is a good thing, Sir, I think they should be paying him fee for service instead of a retainer because there could possibly,and there may not be, but there could conceivably be a conflict of interest and I would like to see all medical men paid a fee for service by the co~pany and not on their payrolls, not be placed on the payroll and paid a retainer because they may be genuine, they may be quite sincere and conscientious and honest but there is that tendency that in the crunch that they might tip the scales in favour of the company. DR.

ROWE: You would like them to he absolutely independent. MR. NEARY: Completely free and independent and if they want to sock it to the company when they do work for them on a fee for service basis, by all means sock it to them and get paid for their service 1but get them off the payrolls. DR. ROWE: Well I do not know about that because I think someone still has to be responsible for the annual medicals and the periodic check ups. That can be done but there are other independent studies that the outside person could do. MR.

NEARY: Well, the minister probably knows more about this subject than I do,but I was always a little bit suspicious of it. DR. ROWE: I can agree with you in principle. "MR. NEARY: Yes, that is right, Sir, I am glad the minister agrees with me in principle because I was always a little bit doubtful about it, whether this practice was a good practice or not, _And maybe in the olden days a lot of the doctors had to go on the companies' payroll to survive, I do not know. But certainly in this day and age, there is no need for a doctor to put himself in a conflict of interest position. DR.

ROWE: Make a note of that for next year. MR. NEARY: The minister will make a note of it for next year. Well I am not going to make any long speech because as I say it is good to be reassured by both ministers that a close watch is being kept on these operations, Sir. 4847

April 22 , 1975 Tape !lo . 1632 NM - 3 ncc au.~e you know, Mr. Chairman, you can talk all you like about whether or not the r>hosphorous plant should have been established ac Lonp. llarbour , whether they would not allow it to 11.0 in Ontario or they· would not allow it to P,o somewhere else, the fact remains that it is there .

It 1.s creatinp. employment for Newfoundlanders. t do no t think that partisan politics should enter into it at all , if it is a danger to the health of the people in the area, if it i s a dan11.er to the eMJ>loyees who work in that plant, if it is destroying the ve11.etation, if it is destroying the animal l ife and the birds in the area t hen t do not care, f.ir , what par t y you belonP. to, and I do not care who broup.ht t he plant in there, then we as elected representative of the people of this Provi nce should do something about it .

That is all I am sayin11., Sir, and that is why I,on a number of occasi ons I have put quest i ons t o the Minister of Health , to the Premier, to the ~inis ter of Mines and Enerp.y, I will continue to do so . I t is 484ti

April 22 • 1975 Tape no. 1633 Page 1 111W a very delicate area. I realize that, It is an area that requires continuous study and continuous watching. You cannot watch it close enough as far as I am concerned. Only the other night I was down in Catalina, and I was going around this jammed, packed hall, the Canadian Legion Club in Catalina, shaking hands with all the people that came out to that great meeting there at the Legion in Catalina, and I came across one gentleman that looked a little bit different,! would say,probably than the others, maybe a little more prosperous, I do not know.

But anyway when he stood up Ile said, I am from this area all right Mr. Neary, but I work in Labrador City, but I am certainly glad to meet you, Be said, I have heard so much about you, and I ~ave listened to you on the radio so much and saw you on television so much that I BIii certainly glad to meet you, I said to•him, well, Sir, are you home on vacation now? Have you moved back to Catalina? He said, no.

He said• I am one of these men who is being examined now• under the progranme the minister spoke about, for a respiratory condition or for a possible silicosis that was developed as a result of his working for the last six or seven years in the pelletizing plant in Labrador. And you know• Mr.

Chairman, being an old employee of a mining company myself, and I think the minister will probably agree with me on this, that you can almost tell when you talk to a man who has worked in a mine for a long time, exposed to dust, you can almost tell by the sound of his voice that he has a chest condition, This particular gentleman in Catalina, as soon as he spoke to me, he reminded me of a man I used to know on Bell Island that I felt had silicosis but I do not believe there was ever one case of silicosis proven on Bell Island, DR. ROWE: That is interesting, because you had tremendous dust problems for years.

MR, NEARY: No, proven I said, not one case was proven, But, Sir, I would suspect, and it is too late to talk about it now, that there was more than one case, and the~e was more than 484~

April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1633 Page 2 - mw one person that was buried with silicosis because silicosis is something that does not show up on the X-ray. I do not know if members are aware of that. The minister could probably verify that. It is very difficult to detect it. DR. ROWE: In the early stages. MR. NEARY: In the early stages with an X-ray. DR. ROWE: That is why we are doing the pulmonary function. MR. NEARY: That is right.

But anyway,this particular gentleman in Catalina as soon as he spoke to me I said he sounds so much like a gentleman I knew on Bell Island who worked down in the mine, who I always claimed had silicosis but it was never proven and sure enough the man up and told me he was working in the pelletizing plant in Labrador City, and he was going back again, and he was one of the ones now who was going to another job. They would not put him back in the pelletizing plant and expose him to the dust haza~ds any longer. So it is a very touchy subject. It is a very delicate area, but one that we must not be afraid of.

And, you know, Mr. Chairman, if to improve conditions, to rectify something that is going wrong, even if drastic action is necessary, I think we should lay our politics aside and not just say, well, the Liberal Administration brought this industry,or the Tory Administration brought in this industry,or you are trying to take the bread and butter out of our mouths, you are trying to put us all on utemployment. That should not enter into it at all. Sir, personally, myself, I would place a higher value on one life than I would on all these industries put together that I just mentioned. You can take St.

Lawrence, Buchan, I.O.C., Baie Verte and the phosphorus plant down at Long Harbour and as far as I am concerned, Sir, if you put them all together and you added up all the millions of dollars that they pay out in the run of a year and that they put into the pockets of their shareholders, in the way of profits, in my opinion, Sir, they would not compensate for the loss of one Newfoundland life. That is how sincere I am 6850

April 22, 1975 Tape no. 1633 Page 3 - mw about thia matte:r. So I am rather reassured, S:ir, to hear the comments of both -houourable gentl~. I trust that they wiil continue to keep a very close watch 011 these five operatioDS in particular, MR.. CBAIIMAN: T-he lion. Mellber for St. Barbe North, MR.. F. B.RDWE: Mr. Chai~u, I just have a: few brief coaeuts and queatioas on the Department of Health vote, Sir, needless to say when my colleague the Leader of the Opposition revealed the contents of Dr.

Thomas' letter last week, I became extra.ely concerned over the situation in Labrador and the Northern P~nsula in general, Sir I but more specifically - AN BOB. MBMBEll: Did you aae a copy _of the l..etter, by ~ way'l MR. F. B. ROWE: No, because it did not directly affect my particular dis:trict. But indirectly it does affect my district and that is why I am speaking to this particular point at this present time, I was disappointed that 4851

April 22, 1975 Tape 1634 (Afternoon) PK - 1 the minister really did not answer the charges, if you will, that the Opposition Leader made or did not answer the question as to what the government intended to do about it, but probably the minister has some very good reasons, and I guess we can expect an announcement from the Premier or the minister within the near future if that is my unnerstanding. AN HON. MEl"BER: Inaudible. !'!lL ROWE: Right. But not a formal announcement - well I was probahly outside when it was made.

But I understood from the minister that the Premier will probably be making an announcement at a later date. AN HON. MEtIBER: Inaudible. -- - ... ------ MR. F. ROWE: J)R. ROWE: ----·- UR. F. ROWE~ Right. Right. •••• my point of view as to what will happen. Exactly.

Well, Sir, the ooint tthat I want to bring up is in view of the fact that there was a possibility that the I.G.A. would have to close some nursing stations or medical clinics and cut back in certain services provided by the hospital 1and this sort of a thing, I was wondering if the minister would indicate to the CollllTlittee, Sir, what - AN 1•0N. m~m~:.. Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: - is likely to happen at the Flowers Cove nursing station?

RecausP. it was my understanding that if the medical clinic at Port Saunders proved a success that the government would give serious consideration to huildinf, the same sort of a medical clinic or renovating the existing nursinp; station at Flowers Cove and providing the same type of a service in the Flower3 Cove area which would be more or less the central part of what is now St. Barbe North, will provide them with the same kind of a medical service that is now being provided by the Port Saunders medical clinic.

Now I understand, of course, that this was an effort on the part of the local citizens in Port Saunders and surrounding area, as well as nREE I believe, as well as the Provincial Government. So I do not know what the situation is with respect to local involvement in Flowers Cove. 48Sl

April 22, 1974 Tape 1634 (Afternoon) I can only point out, Mr. Chairman, that in Flowers Cove or in St. Barbe North you do have a slightly different situation PK - 2 with respect to local involvement. As I mentioned so many times, Sir, in this House, St. Barbe North is composed of a string of relatively small communities,

whereas the Hawkes Bay-Port au Choix-Port Saunders area represents a concentrated population, so you can quite easily see how a Lion's Club or how a group of people in that area could get together and very forcefully make a contribution along with the federal and provincial governments towards the building of a medical clinic.

Whereas in St. Barbe North with your thirty or forty smaller communities distributed over a greater geographically area you can quite easily see how it would be more difficult to get local imput, and that is a problem, rivalry between the communities and this sort of thing that exists. And I would suggest, Sir, that we might even have that medical clinic,equivalent to the one in Port Saunders, in Flowers Cove or some other area in the district at this point in time if it were not for the fact that we do have this geographical dispersion of the communities and people in St. Barbe North.

So I would appreciate if the minister could ask what is on the platter for St. Barbe North as far as medical service is concerned. Another couple of points, Sir. ~eedless to say, and I hope the minister does not take this personally, I was extremely disappointed with the estimates of the Department of Health and the contents of the Throne Speech,or the Budget Speech, I am sorry, as it relates to the Department of Health.

And I fully realize that this Province, you know, only has a certain amount of money to go around, and there are constraints and you cannot expect to get everything overnight in the way of medical services, educational services, highway services or this sort of a thing. But, Sir, it is a simple case of this government's credibility cropping up once again.

Because in 1972, Sir, the Throne Speech, the Throne Speech now,said that the government will aim for the construction of viable regional hospitals and that examples of areas to be considered for hospitals include Clarenville to ¥1hitbourne, Bonavista Peninsula, Burin Peninsula, Northwest Coast. And, of course, the Throne Speech reiterated that these areas should have better health facilities. So Clarenville, I ·1 5 l.j b .J

April 22, 1975 Tape 1635 (afternoon) Ronavista, Burin, the Burin Peninsula,and the Northwest Coast. Now, Sir, these were mentioned back in 1972, and I believe, of course, during the campaign it cropped up on several occasions, some of these areas, promises and an indication to the people that once this administration got into pQl1er?and indeed they did get in power, that they would get straight to work and provide reasonable medical services in Clarenville, Bonavista, Burin, the Burin Peninsula and the Northwest Coast. Now, Sir, that was in 1972.

IB-1 In 1975 we read in the Budget Speech under the Health Programmes that the great need of Newfoundland for additional and better hospital and health facilities poses a difficult financial problem for government especially in view of staggering, escalating costs. Outside St. John's we are committed to meet the needs for new hospitals for Ronavista, Clarenville, Burin Peninsula and Channel. It goes on. Funds have been provided in 1975-1976 so that planning and progress can be made for the rrojects at Ronavista, Clarenville, the Ruri.n Peninsula, Placentia, and Grand Falls.

Funds have been provided in 1q75-1q76 so that planning and progress. Now, Sir, I just want to reiterate my extreme disappointment and point out that this administration has to be losing every bit of credibility it might once have had because three years ago in a Throne Speech the impression was left to people that these things would be undertaken immediately. This was the impression. It is all you have to do is mention a hospital, mention the word and mention an area and people being what they are, and the needs being what they are, automatically assume that, okay, we are getting it.

Sir, if plans or money is being provided in 1975-1976 for planning and progress in these areas, I would say obviously we will never see the fulfillment of promises made in 1972 during this term of office of this present administration. For that, Sir, I am sincerely sorry and disappointed. ~o, I will leave it at that and will not go into, launch into a great partisan speech on it. Jlut, I thought I would point out that that particular aspect 1or 111}' impressions of what T see i,n the Budp;et Speech and what I see in the estimates as far as 4854

April 22, 1975 Tape 1635 (afternoon) TR-2 the Department of Health is concerned, is just one of extreme disappointment in terms of what was promised and what the expectations of the people must have been back in 1971-1972 when the present party in power saw fit to raise the expectations of the people and make these promises that have not been kept. It is a case, Sir, where the government can come out and give the reason and rationale. The government finds itself in a very tight financial situation,as do most governments. They can easily rationalize why this situation exists at the present time.

But, Sir, I would submit that it would have been much better if the present administration during their election campaign and during their first few Throne and Budget Speeches levelled with the people, took into consideration high costs, escalating costs, inflation and this sort of a thing and had been a little more candid with the electorate of this Province. It is as simple as that. Now, Sir, that is the second point that I wanted to make. The third point is dental nurses. I cannot remember the minister having referred to this during the consideration of his estimates this year.

But, I would simply point out that in September, 1973 the present Premier during the sreech said that active study has begun on a dental nursing programme and said further that they are studying a dental recruiting programme. Now,

April ?? ~~, 1975. Tape 1636 RH - 1 I do not know if I just have not been reading the news enough or listening enough lately but I myself have not heard anything further with rcspc-ct to a dental nursinr, programme and a recruit:!ng programme for dental nurses. Obviously, this is a very important factor in the health needs of our Province when you consider the ratio of patients pc>r dentist :!.n this Province. I cannot renember the exact figure but I l:now it is - I beg your pardon? AN llONOW-ABLE NEJ'IBETI.: Inaudible. 'ffi.. TI.OWE: ·- --- One to seven thousand which compares nationally one to three thousand.

So ohviously the more dental nurses we can get in under these circumstances the better. Of course, my other colleagues have nentioned the denturists aspect of it as well. A third point or is it fourth, that I would like to make, Sir, is that in October, 1971, again in a campaign speech,the present Premier said that it was the P.C. 's plan and commitment to set up mobile medical and dental clinics throughout the Province, mobile and dental clinics throughout the Province. As a matter of fact there was consideration being given to a dental clinic ann possibly a medical clinic, a mobile one in the district of St.

Barbe North first when I was elected because of the poor medical services in that particular area. I think the minister has mentioned an example of one <lental clinic somewhere in the consideration of his estimates hut certainly we do not have any great programme of mobile medical and dental clinics in this Province and this is a five year old promise now that to my best knowledge has not been kept by this present administration.

Lastly, Sir, the whole question of the price of drugs and, Sir, I feel compelled and I feel that I should bring these matters up because after all these were planks in platforms in campaign speeches,these were either rlanks in promises or platforms in campaign speeches or they were commitments made in Throne and/or Budget Speeches. I think it is only responsible of me to bring up in this Committee stage, Sir, where these promises and these commitments stand. Again, in October, 1971 4850

April 22, 1975. Tape 1636 RH - 2 during a campaign speech the present Premier said that the price of drugs must be reduced one way or another and in the March, 1972 Throne Speech it was said that the government is alarmed, alarmed at the high cost of drugs. So, in 1971 in a campaign speech the cost of drugs, the price of drugs must be reduced in one way or another. In 1972 in the Throne Speech the government is alarmed over the high cost of drugs in this Province and in January, 1974 in the Throne Speech the government is considering methods to reduce the price of 9rugs.

So, must be done one way or the other, then alarmed and now is considering methods to reduce the price of drugs, I think it is only a legitimate question for me to ask,what is going on with respect to the price of drugs? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Getting closer all the time. MR. ROWE: Getting closer all the time. Well, Sir, for the government's political sake I sincerely hope that they are able to come out with their great programme before the next great election because they are going to need all the help they need Sir. I am starting to get political now and I do not want to do that.

But I would ask the honourable the minister if he would indicate specifically, not in - I do not want to hear about the fact the administration is considering a progrannne. We do not want to hear that you are alarmed, that the administration is alarmed. We want to hear some act