Manitoba Hansard — 28 April 2008 (Sitting 31, 39th Legislature, 2nd Session)

39-2-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LX No. 31 – 1:30 p.m., Monday, April 28, 2008 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1195 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 28, 2008 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 28–The Strengthening Local Schools Act (Public Schools Act Amended) Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): I move, seconded by the Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines (Mr. Rondeau), that Bill 28, The Strengthening Local Schools Act (Public Schools Act Amended);

Loi sur le renforcement des écoles locales (modification de la

Loi sur les écoles publiques), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, this bill will allow school divisions and communities to plan for better opportunities for their children, enabling schools to remain viable, for example, as centres for early childhood education where there is a demand in the community and capacity in the school. The community school is an important asset to all communities both urban and rural. Moreover this legislation will support our efforts to minimize the amount of time a student will spend on the bus to and from school. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Lake Dauphin Fishery Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition: The reasons for this petition are as follows: Fishing is an important industry on Lake Dauphin. To help ensure the sustainability of Lake Dauphin fishery, it is essential that spawning fish in the lake and its tributaries are not disturbed during the critical reproductive cycle.

A seasonal moratorium on the harvesting fish in Lake Dauphin and its tributaries may help create an environment that will produce a natural cycle of fish for Lake Dauphin, therefore ensuring a balanced stock of fish for all groups who harvest fish on the lake. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms. Melnick) to consider placing a moratorium on the harvesting of any species of fish on Lake Dauphin and its tributaries for the period of April 1 to May 15 annually.

To request the Minister of Water Stewardship to consider doing regular studies of fish stocks on Lake Dauphin to help gauge the health of the fishery and to consider determining any steps needed to protect or enhance those stocks. This petition is signed by Basil Price, Rudy Aller, Sophie Wilson and many, many other Manitobans. Crosswalk at Highway 206 and Centre Avenue Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I wish to present the following petition: These are the reasons for this petition: The safety of children crossing Provincial Highway 206 in Landmark ha s been a local concern for a number of years.

Provincial Highway 206 through Landmark is a busy route serviced only by pedestrian crossing signs where it intersects with Centre Avenue. Safety at this pedestrian crossing needs to be improved before an accident results in a major injury or a fatality. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to consider approving the installation of an illuminated crosswalk sign at the intersection of Provincial Highway 206 and Centre Avenue.

1196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 Mr. Speaker, this is signed by Randy Herrmann, Denise McBurny, Gwen Smith and many, many other fine residents of Landmark. Dividing of Trans-Canada Highway Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The seven-kilometre stretch of the Trans-Canada Highway passing through Headingley is an extremely busy stretch of road, averaging 18,000 vehicles daily. This

section of the Trans-Canada Highway is one of the few remaining stretches of undivided highway in Manitoba, and it has seen more than 100 accidents in the last two years, some of them fatal. Manitoba's Assistant Deputy Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation told a Winnipeg radio station on October 16, 2007, that when it comes to highways projects the provincial government has a flexible response program, and we have a couple of opportunities to advance these projects in our five-year plan.

In the interests of protecting motorist safety, it is critical that the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is completed as soon as possible. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to consider making the completion of the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley in 2008 an urgent provincial government priority.

To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider evaluating whether any other steps can be taken to improve motorist safety while the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is being completed. This is signed by Liz Carter, Gavin Fenton, Pat Mersereau and many others, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Long-Term Care Facility–Morden Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The background for this petition is as follows: Tabor Home Incorporated is a time-expired personal care home in Morden with safety, environmental and space deficiencies. The seniors of Manitoba are valuable members of the community with in creasing health-care needs requiring long-term care. The community of Morden and the surrounding area are experiencing substantial population growth. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Ms.

Oswald) to strongly consider giving priority for funding to develop and staff a new 100-bed long-term care facility so that clients are not exposed to unsafe conditions and so that Boundary Trails Health Centre beds remain available for acute-care patients instead of waiting placement clients. This is signed by Bryan Fehr, Lucille Bell, Ed Hildebrand and many, many others. Lake Dauphin Fishery Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Fishing is an important industry on Lake Dauphin.

To help ensure the sustainability of the Lake Dauphin fishery, it is essential that spawning fish in the lake and its tributaries are not disturbed during the critical reproductive cycle. A seasonal moratorium on the harvesting fish in Lake Dauphin and its tributaries may help to create an environment that will produce a natural cycle of fish for Lake Dauphin, therefore ensuring a balanced stock of fish for all groups who harvest fish on the lake. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms. Melnick) to consider placing a moratorium on

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1197 the harvesting of any species of fish on Lake Dauphin and its tributaries for the period of April 1 to May 15 annually. To request the Minister of Water Stewardship to consider doing regular studies of fish stocks on Lake Dauphin to help gauge the health of the fishery and to consider determining any steps needed to protect or to enhance those stocks. This petition is signed by Roy Gamack, Donna Wildeboer, Chantell Tardiff and many, many others. * (13:40) Provincial Nominee Program–Applications Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: Immigration is critically important to the future of our province, and the 1998 federal Provincial Nominee Program is the best immigration program that Manitoba has ever had. The current government needs to recognize that the backlog in processing PNP applications is causing additional stress and anxiety for would-be immigrants and their families and friends here in Manitoba.

The current government needs to recognize the unfairness in its current policy on who qualifies to be an applicant, more specifically, by not allowing professionals such as health-care workers to be able to apply for PNP certificates in the same way a computer technician would be able to do. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier and his government to recognize and acknowledge how important immigration is to our province by improving and strengthening the Provincial Nominee Program This is signed by J. Aguirre, M.

Boittieux, Roberto Evaristo and many, many other fine Manitobans. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy): I'm pleased to table the 2008-2009 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Advanced Education and Literacy. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Day of Mourning Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Today, April 28, is the annual Day of Mourning for workers killed or injured on the job.

Manitoba Member of Parliament, Rod Murphy, introduced the legislation that prompted the Parliament of Canada to officially recognize April 28 as the annual Day of Mourning in 1991. The government of Manitoba, unions and employers, will observe the national Day of Mourning at various ceremonies throughout the city and province today. Every year, we pause on this day to reflect on the serious nature of work. We honour the memories of the men and women of Manitoba who died or were injured on the job over the past year and their efforts to make this a better province.

The Day of Mourning is an opportunity for us to renew our commitment to prevent occupational injuries, illness and death. As leaders in the community, along with our business and union colleagues, we must set the example that safety and health on the job is a daily priority at every workpl ace in the province. The Manitoba government will maintain strong partnerships with the WCB, workers and employers in order to continue developing joint prevention, awareness and education initiatives that will further reduce injuries, illnesses and deaths on the job.

We are experiencing positive results in reducing workplace injuries in a number of areas, but we need to and will do more. We are committed to the safety and health of our workers and look forward to continued participation from employers, workers, educators and prevention organizations. Mr. Speaker, following statements by my colleagues, I would ask that all members stand for a moment of silence in the Chamber to honour the memory of men and women of Manitoba who were injured or killed in the workplace this past year. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for her statement. Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of al l of us on this side of the House, I would like to recognize the gravity of the issue that is marked by the national Day of Mourning each April 28. I was privileged to participate in the Leaders' Walk today, raising public

1198 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 awareness of the vital importance of workplace safety and health, and to hear a student's eye view of safety in the workplace. We need to ensure a safe environment for our workers of tomorrow. Our foremost concern on this day is to remember those who have been lost or injured in accidents or made ill in their workplace. This day affords us an opportunity to remember the lives of those unfortunate individuals who are no longer with us and to preserve their memories.

I would like to express our sincerest sympathies to all of those Manitoba families who have suffered the loss of a loved one in the workplace in an accident this past year and, in fact, every year past. We also offer our support to individuals who have been injured or made ill in the workplace. In this collective act of reflection we cannot avoid confronting the magnitude of these losses with every year which robs vibrant individuals from our families, our communities and our province.

Their tremendous sense of loss is not made any easier by the fact that many or all of these accidents were ultimately preventable, and for those whose lives have been changed by injury we hope this day will help us better understand their personal experiences. We applaud those who continue to make our workplaces safer: employers, safety officers, educators, unions, Workplace Safety and Health, Workers Compensation Board and many others, Mr. Speaker. We must constantly renew our awareness and continue in these efforts. Mr.

Speaker, those workers who knowingly enter into high-risk occupations, those like police officers and firefighters who risk their lives; those in the trades like electricians , welders, road crews, construction workers, those in manufacturing and many others who face great risks on the job. Every worker in every sector deserves the right to return home safely each night to their families. Today, we salute those who didn't and those who sustained injuries or were made ill while at work. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I join my colleagues in the Legislature in recognizing this national Day of Mourning and in remembering the workers who have been injured or killed on the job. I still remember vividly, as a young labourer working as a labourer on a construction crew, being in a situation where an accident happened.

It happened very quickly, and certainly in that instance it was very lucky that somebody wasn't killed, but it brings home the problems of workplace injury, the problems of death in th e workplace and why it is every day we need to focus our attention on making sure that we do everything possible to reduce and eliminate injuries in workplaces and make workplaces as safe as they possibly can be. So, with the others, I join everyone and my colleague, the MLA for I nkster, (Mr. Lamoureux), on behalf of the Liberal Party, in saluting the workers of Manitoba and in remembering those who have been hurt or killed. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement for a moment of silence to rise? [Agreed] Please rise for a moment of silence. * (13:50) A moment of silence was observed. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Riverton Collegiate 39 grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Linda Stevens. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff). Also in the public gallery we have from River East Collegiate 60 grade 9 students under the direction of Ms.

Janice Bigourdan. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Doer). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Canadian Museum for Human Rights Crown Corporation Funding Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, when we consider the very tragic events today unfolding in the Sudan and we look back at the human rights violations that took place in Rwanda a number of years ago, ongoing allegations of human rights abuses in China and the

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1199 history of human rights abuses throughout the world, including Stalin's famine, which resulted in millions of victims of Ukrainian background, the Holocaust, where six million human lives were lost as a result of a horrific totalitarian regime, we know the importance of establishing institutions, including the Museum for Human Rights, that will ensure that we are educated, that we teach young people about the importance of human rights and, most importantly, provide opportunities to ensure that the sorts of horrific events of the past cannot be repeated into the future.

Mr. Speaker, we've supported the commitment by this government of capital funds toward the construction of the Museum of Human Rights, but learned, to our disappointment this morning, that the government had directed four provincial Crown corporations in a sneaky and underhanded way to direct funds toward the project.

I want to ask the Premier whether the $4 million in funds that were disclosed this morning as a result of information coming forward from the Crown corporations is in addition to or is it included within the $40-million number that was printed in the budget document, $40-million commitment to the Human Rights Museum. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, again, it's almost a year ago where we secured the announcement from the fe deral government for a capital commitment of $100 million that was first pledged a few years ago and a secondary commitment for the institution becoming an ongoing national institution.

Mr. Speaker, the $40 million, as the member should know and probably does know from the government entity, flowed in the previous fiscal year prior to the March 31 deadline. That was contained within the supplementary spending. It was contained within a special warrant. It was contained within documents released by the government. It's well- known. In terms of the Crown corporations, Hydro, as I understand it, made a commitment based on an appeal from the late Izzy Asper a few years ago. Other institutions, including in the private sector and the public sector, had been approached earlier by Mr.

Asper and later by Gail Asper and other friends of the museum. Certainly I believe the Hydro commitment was made and actually has even had money flow prior to this. The issue of timing of announcements is sometimes left between the Crown corporations and the Friends of the Museum. There's a number of private sector announcements they have. So, the bottom line is, just like the Pan-Am games, the announcement on Crown is above the amount pledged by the provincial government. Mr. McFadyen: Mr.

Speaker, only eight years ago, when the same Premier tried to use a Crown corporation to fund something completely outside of its mandate, which was the university, he knows that there was a public outcry because Manitobans want transparency and accountab ility. They want to know that, when they pay their money to MPI, it's going toward public insurance. They want to know that, when they pay their hydro bill, it's going toward generating electricity for Manitobans and for export and for other matters related to it.

When they pay their taxes, they want to know that that money is being spent in a way in accordance with budgets that are presented in an open and transparent way. Eight years ago, when he got caught sneaking money from MPI toward othe r purposes, there was a public out roar, and he promised at the time that it wouldn't happen again. Here we are, eight years later and he's done the very same thing again, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask the Premier: Why is he tarnishing this great and important project by using sneaky and underhanded means to finance it? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if the member goes to a football game, he'll probably notice advertising from Crown corporations. Under his definition, it would not be allowed. If he goes to a Special Olympics event this week, the Liquor Commission is helping to sponsor that. If he goes to the Assiniboine Park, the Friends of Assiniboine Park have obtained money from Crown corporations. I certainly support the idea of Crown corporations investing in communities. Mr. Speaker, in 1999, the member opposite was chief of staff, Crown corporations invested money in the Pan Am Games, comparable amounts to what's being invested right now.

Now, here you have the Pan Am Games, $42 million from the provincial government, some millions of dollars from Crown corporations going to a two-week event, probably good for the community. Here you have the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, you have the private sector investing money. You have the provincial government investing money. You have private citizens investing money.

1200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 The member opposite knows because he was certainly informed, or his members of his caucus were informed, by the late Israel Asper and Gail Asper of all the efforts they're making in the private sector and the public sector to raise money. This has not been a kind of secret. This has been the approach they've been using for years, Mr. Speaker, and I think that the museum, now that we've secured ongoing operating expenses from the federal government, between $15 million and $20 million a year.

We've got donations and investments from Wawanesa, private insurance company, of a million dollars. We've got investments from the Buhler family of $6 million, the Richardson family for $3 million. From the provincial government– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: Thank you. As I said, a couple of years ago, Hydro made the initial pledge I certainly support. I supported th e Crown corporations advertising at Bombers. I guess we now have to go back, under the Tory policy, and get rid of that.

I support the Crown corporations investing in Assiniboine Park. I think they invest lots in cultural agencies in Manitoba. I supported the Conservatives who had Crown corporations investing millions of dollars in the Pan Am Games. In fact, if you look at the provincial portion of the money going to the Pan Am Games and the Crown corporation portion, it's less than what's going to go to the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. I think it's good for Manitoba to have investments in the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. I certainly supported Israel Asper when he first approached the Crowns.

I supported Gail Asper when she followed it up, and I certainly support the Crown corporations, as I did with the Pan Am Games, investing in the future of Manitoba. Mr. McFadyen: My question to the Premier is that we all acknowledge it's a very good project. Why not be upfront enough to simply print $44 million in the provincial budget rather than $40 million and be proud of the investment rather than trying to sneak money in through the backdoor, through Crown corporations, that are monopolies where people don't have any choice as to whether they pay money into those corporations or not, Mr. Speaker?

Why not just be upfront about it? Put 44 in the budget instead of 40 so that we could all stand up and support it, and we could all go forward with our heads held high supporting a project that's good for Manitoba and good for humanity instead of a project that's been [inaudible] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. McFadyen: because of this Premier's unwillingness to be straight up about it? Why is he playing politics and tarnishing this important project, Mr. Speaker? * (14:00) Mr. Doer: Well, Mr.

Speaker, for the same reason the Pan Am Games pledge was $42.5 million from the provincial government and the Crown corporation money was on top of it, based on different Crown corporations, the same reason. In terms of timing of announcements from Crowns to the Friends of the Museum, Hydro made its announcement, I think, two years ago in terms of their investment. Long before this issue became public, I supported the idea that the Crowns will work with the Friends of the Museum on the timing. I certainly applaud the Crowns investing. The member opposite mentioned the fact that, Mr.

Speaker, the Crowns are, quote, monopolies. The same rule would apply to the Pan Am Games. The same rule would apply to the Winnipeg Football Club, the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. The same rule would apply to Friends of the Assiniboine Park. The same rule would apply to many hospitals that get money from Crown corporations. The same rule would apply to liquor investing wine money to Special Olympics this Thursday night. The Crowns, like private companies, are involved in the community. They were under the Conservatives, they are under us and they will be into the future. Vehicle Registration Fees Increase Mr.

Cliff Graydon (Emerson): This NDP government has a long history of raiding Crown corporations while raising fees to suit its own political purpose. They also have a long history of coming up with sneaky backdoor tax grabs that hit Manitobans hard, right in the wallet. This year, vehicle registration fees are going up by 20 percent. In total, the NDP have hiked the vehicle registration fees by 150 percent since 1999.

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1201 Why is it this NDP government is punishing families with its 150 percent backdoor tax increase? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): The member raises the fee for our driver's licences. The reality is that we've maintained the second-lowest gas taxes. It's a flat tax. It does not go up when the price goes up at the pump. So Manitobans receive very good value. All the money that's raised through the gas tax plus several tens of million dollars more goes back into the roadway system. We're making record investments in improving our infrastructure.

These contributions are towards having a better infrastructure in Manitoba, because the infrastructure deficit was one of the things that had to be addressed during our term in office. Mr. Graydon: This smacks of blue collar fraud. There's a $100-rebate being sent out in the mail today and they're taking back $25. This fee increase is a tax grab plain and simple. The vehicle registration fee is $70 in Alberta, $68 in Saskatchewan, $37 in northwestern Ontario, $28 in British Columbia, while budget 2008 now tops them all at a whopping $119. The MPIC Act prohibits MPI from giving money directly to government.

Is this fee increase a way of creating a political slush fund for the NDP? I ask the minister again: How does he explain the backdoor tax hike? Mr. Selinger: I want to thank the member for putting on the record that people will get on average about $100 back on their Autopac rebate. The member suggests that we were less than straightforward on the increase in the driver's licence fee. It was published in the budget. It was the subject of press releases. It was completely disclosed. It was completely debated in this Legislature during the last couple of weeks. It was voted on by all members of the Legislature.

It's further subject to review during the Estimates process. If only members opposite had been as transparent on transfers they took out of the Crowns, we wouldn't have had some of the challenges we've had over the last several years. Building Canada Fund Government Participation Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Many provinces across the country have signed on to the Building Canada Fund and are moving forward with important infrastructure projects for their provinces.

Here in Manitoba, we have many important projects from across Manitoba that are being held up because this Premier is playing political games with the federal government on this agreement. Mr. Speaker, he's claiming that the federal Conservatives are in breach of an agreement that he says doesn't even exist, that there's no paper, no signed agreement between the levels of government. I want to ask the Premier: Why is he letting political games get in the way of moving forward on important projects for the people of Manitoba? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): After the member opposite goes to the Winnip eg football stadium and sees some Crown corporation ads, I'll show him a video of the announcement made by Minister Cannon and Minister Toews last year wherein he says that the amount of money for the floodway in the next stage will not be subtracted from future infrastructure commitment s to Manitoba. It's reported in the newspaper. It's reported in the electronic media.

It's reported in the press release that is vetted once, twice, three and four times by any federal government minister before it's released, vetted here, in Ottawa, back here, back in Ottawa, back here. I'll show him the release, Mr. Speaker, but thank you very much for the question. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, the federal government is flowing money to Manitoba at record levels through a variety of ways, an extra more than $300 million coming in a variety of transfer programs. There's a pot of money for the inland port. There's a new infrastructure program. There's a variety of programs across the board.

They're not subtracting money from anything. They want to get ahead and move ahead so they can start flowing money to Manitoba. Why is the Premier standing in the way? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, there's a difference between standing in the way and standing up. I've never seen a Leader of the Opposition act like Neville Chamberlain in this Chamber. It's the first time I've seen that happen.

The member opposite is saying that a commitment made that I–as I say, after he goes to Assiniboine Park and sees the lottery donations to the Friends of Assiniboine Park, after he goes there, I'd like him to come back and I'll show him a video tape where in fact the Minister of Infrastructure (Mr. Lemieux) or the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ashton) can see a tape where people say–

1202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you very mu ch, Mr. Speaker, and we do stand up for the original commitment and we stand up for Manitoba. We are proud of the fact that Manitoba's economy in '07, in spite of the doom and gloom from members opposite, is ranked second in Newfoundland and Labrador. It's second and tied with Alberta and ahead of other provinces that members opposite cite every day. We stand up for Manitoba. I hope the Leader of the Opposition does as well. Economy Tax Revenues Mr.

Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance is either overly optimistic about the Manitoba economy, or he's simply ignoring the negative economic signals that are bombarding him from all sides. Gas will hit $1.40. Groceries are going up by 35 percent. Here's a news bulletin: something will give. PST is the third-largest revenue generator behind personal tax and–guess what?–equalization. Sales tax revenue decreased by 0.2 percent in February, yet the budget shows an annual growth of a whopping 10.8 percent in PST.

When revenue drops, will the minister, as he always does, blame the feds or will he take responsibility? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the member and I had the opportunity to discuss this in Estimates, and he knows that the actual sales tax revenue last year was higher than the budgeted amount. So the difference is not as great as he's putting on the record. He will also know that we have, for our financial economic projections for this year, reduced them over last year, even though we're growing well above the Canadian average.

We're one of the leaders in the country for economic growth, even though all of us, with few exceptions, have moderated the growth projections, given the economic forecasts that are out there all across North America. So the reality is, as we discussed in Estimates, the revenue numbers that have been put forward are prudent, given the forecasts that are available to us. * (14:10) Mr. Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, I don't share his optimism. The revenue side of the budget is full of holes. The only way to grow an economy is to be business friendly. This government is anything but business friendly.

Besides punishing labour laws, the payroll tax is budgeted to raise an additional 4.7 percent next year. Loewen Windows laid off 100 people. Motor Coach In dustries is coming off forced vacation. Convergys in the city of Brandon just got rid of 450 jobs. Agricore moved to Regina. Western Glove moved to China. If the minister wants to chase large corporations away, he's doing a great job. Why can't the minister see the folly of his ways and put out the welcome mat for large corporations as opposed to chasing them out of this province? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite accuses us of being too optimistic. It's not us that put out the data today from Stats Canada that said Manitoba had the second-highest growth rate in Canada last year at 3.3 percent in 2007. Mr. Speaker, we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. We have one of the highest employment rates in the country. We have one of the highest participation rates of all the working-age people in the county right now. We also know that wages are growing above the Canadian average.

Yes, the member has, since he has arrived here in this Legislature, since the very day he arrived here, he's been very negative on economic forecasts. I guess if you do it for enough years, eventually there will be some evidence to support your contention. Potash Industry Government Initiatives Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): The minister's rhetoric just does not fit with what's really happening out there in the real world, Mr. Speaker. We are losing companies to other jurisdictions. We are losing our working people to other jurisdictions. Mr.

Speaker, last year , on February 22, the Minister of Energy announced that with a consortium of BHP Billiton, there would be a $15-million investment in potash in Manitoba. To date, that resource stays dormant. While Saskatchewan has moved ahead with $6.5 billion of investment in the potash industry, Manitoba sits on its duff and waits for welfare cheques from Ottawa. I want to ask the Minister of Energy and Mines why he isn't aggressively pursuing the development of potash in this province as other jurisdictions are doing, like Saskatchewan.

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1203 Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): I'm very pleased to tell that member, in fact, the whole House, that we've moved from about $16 million to $20-million average on expenditures for exploration to exploration expenditures about $100 million a year, five times the record under the Tories. Mining, the exploration has increased, the amount of companies has increased. I know that oil and gas is only up 500 percent, and I know that mining's only up 357 percent, but it's growing. We have companies that are doing exploration.

They're exploring for all sorts of things–copper, gold, tantalum, all sorts of things, and I'm [inaudible] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Rondeau: Up 357 and almost 500 percent. It shows that mining and petroleum is growing in our province. Mr. Derkach: I'm going to ask the minister, and I'm going to look at him, to really focus on the question because he seems to lose the intent of the question. I know it's difficult sometimes, but I'm really glad [inaudible] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, Saskatchewan has just announced a $1.8-billion mine being developed at Rocanville, just 30 miles away from where Manitoba's potash site sits dormant. Mr. Speaker, there's a warehouse full of core samples sitting in Manitoba waiting to be analyzed and a go-ahead to be done. The land has been acquired, not by this government. This minister talks about investment. He hasn't invested a penny. It's private companies that are investing, yet, he's a 49 percent stakeholder.

I want to ask the minister when he's going to get off his duff and do something about a potash industry that is waiting to be developed in this province. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased that the minister has repatriated the ownership of 51 percent of the potash from the French government, that the Tories sold the potash shares to the French govern ment at 51 percent. I'm glad this minister has repatriated that ownership to a private-sector company that can start investing in the potash of Manitoba rather than remaining in Paris like the Tories did when they were in office. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, and I'm going to ask the Premier to focus as well, because he seems to lose focus like the minister does as well. Mr. Speaker, Saskatchewan is selling potash and is producing potash flat-out. The price of potash has gone up by $400 a tonne in the last year. Youth from our province are leaving Manitoba, going to Saskatchewan where they're finding work in the potash industry; yet, the potash resources in this province remain dormant under this government.

I want to ask the minister or the Premier to answer directly when he and his government are going to get off their duffs and start to invest in potash in this province like we should. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we spent a number of years– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: Yes, we have great confidence in the future of potash, although there have been so many false promises to the people of Russell and Binscarth, we don't want to make any other commitment. But the first– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

The honourable Member for Russell has asked a question; he has the right to hear the answer. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Plus I need to hear the questions and the answers in case there's a breach of a rule or departure from our practices, because if there is you will expect me to make a ruling, rightfully, but I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: We had to deal with the fact that the French Crown corporations had the share of 51 percent sold by the members opposite.

It's kind of counterintuitive, if you will. We now have that into a private-sector firm, the 51 percent, back from the French Crown corporations, back across for investment in Manitoba and in the future. The company that now has 51 percent, BHP, has a considerable amount of capital. This is an asset that's worth a considerable amount of money, the ore and

1204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 the body, as the member said; the core, is very, very positive in Manitoba. We believe the first step, but it took us a while, to get the ownership that was taken over to Paris, but I guess that doesn't fit into their definition of Crown corporations. Mr. Speaker, they sold our potash to Paris and we've got it back from Paris, and we hope to develop here in Manitoba. Lake Dauphin Conservation Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, last Wednesday there were 55 people fishing on the Turtle River at the grotto at Ste. Rose, taking pre-spawning walleye.

Walleye counts continue to decline in Lake Dauphin. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Water Stewardship: Why isn't this government doing more to protect spawning walleye? Why isn't she protecting the fish stocks in Lake Dauphin? Hon. Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): Mr. Speaker, as I explained last week in the House, we are working with the community. We have three primary objectives. One is to make sure that there is a long-term sustainable fishery in Lake Dauphin and fisheries around Manitoba to protect the treaty rights th rough sustenance fishery. We are respecting treaty rights.

Again, we are making sure that there's education around the need to protect spawning grounds. We are working with the Western Regional Tribal Council. In fact, this is their pilot project. They are bringing in elders, so that there's a strong component of respect for the fishery being portrayed through the elders. The question isn't why do we believe in creative solutions that include the community. The question is: Why don't they? Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, closure was put in place in 1999 and could be used again.

This government has spent close to half a million dollars since 2001 to try and come up with a management plan. That plan is still not finalized. Seven years to address this problem and it's failed. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Water Stewardship: Is she ready to table a co-management plan today, or is she prepared to admit this plan isn't working now and put a full closure in place on this valuable fishery during spawning season? Ms. Melnick: Mr. Speaker, we are doing better than tabling a plan in this House for co-management.

We are working with the Western Regional Tribal Council this day, making sure that the co-management plan includes people from the community, making sure we are respecting the sustenance fishery as the right under the treaties. We are again working with the community. Again, I'm not sure what it is with creative solutions that maintain a long-term fishery that members opposite don't understand.

I wish they would go and talk to people in the community and see that there's a positive response, a much better response in working together than the conflictual ways that members opposite always bring to the floor of this House. * (14:20) Victoria Hospital Emergency Room Wait Times Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, the government has made many promises with regard to health-care delivery but repeatedly has failed to deliver on most of those promises. There are long waiting times today for ultrasound at St. Boniface Hospital.

There are long waiting times for many other areas, but I would like to focus today on the long waiting times present in the Victoria Hospital emergency room. Last week on April 23, patients had to wait for up to 13 hours to see a physician in the Victoria General Hospital ER. I'd lik e the Premier (Mr. Doer) to explain to Manitobans why his government has so badly failed to deliver on quick access to quality health care when it's needed. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question.

I'm certain that, more than most people, the member opposite, being a physician, knows that patients who come into an emergency room, of course, are prioritized based on the urgency of their medical needs. That is a decision that needs to be made. One of the ways that we know we can improve the speed with which people can be seen is by increasing our complement of doctors and nurses in the ER. We know that last year, June of '07, we made an unprecedented agreement with emergency room doctors in Winnipeg and across Manitoba, indeed, that was enabling us to increase the complement of doctors.

We have more vacancies to fill at Victoria Hospital and we're committed to do that, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, April 23 of last week, the situation was so bad that the nurses were literally

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1205 crying for help, indeed, when patients were asking why they would have to wait, coming in at 1 o'clock in the afternoon, till 2 o'clock in the morning, 13 hours. The nurses were desperate, and they said, we have no idea what to do. The only thing you can do is to call the minister and try to have the minister explain what the problem is and what she's going to do about this.

My question is to the Premier: Why is the organization of health care so bad in this province that the people on the ground are desperate, and the minister herself is not able to make sure that people get quick access to care when they are sick and waiting, sick in an emergency room? Ms. Oswald: Mr. Speaker, of course, when anyone is feeling ill or has been injured and presents at an emergency room, it's our goal and commitment to not have individuals have to wait any longer than necessary. I know that when issues were raised in this House just a few moments or a few weeks ago, I met immediately with– Mr.

Speaker: Order. Ms. Oswald: –the CEO of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority who, in turn, immediately sent officials to go into Victoria Hospital to assist with issues of patient flow, to increase any types of services that could be provided. We're working with them to improve that flow. We have more work to do on that issue, Mr. Speaker, but we know that investing in education of ER doctors, bringing more nurses to Manitoba, and ensuring that we construct facilities like the one at Victoria, we're going to be better in this regard. Crown Corporations Council Manitoba Hydro Capital Investigation Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, by law, the Crown Corporations Council is supposed to be reviewing capital expenditures of our Crowns. In fact, I quote the law direct where it says, duties of the Council is to review long-term corporate plans and capital expenditures, proposals of corporations. Mr. Speaker, when I asked the minister the question in terms of what has this minister received, he says, nothing. I asked him to provide any information to this Legislature, and he says, no. I suspect it's because he does have nothing or it's like the Crocus affair where he just doesn't know.

It's a minister that doesn't understand. There is a responsibility of this minister to have received a proposal from the Crown Council, and I'm asking the Minister of Finance: Will he table that proposal today as to where Manitoba Crown Council believes that hydro line should be going? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, there's so much misinformation in the

preamble to that question. First of all, I've made it very clear to the member that the Crown Corps Council does review all capital that's submitted by the Crown corporations, and they make a recommendation to Treasury Board. The result of those deliberations is published in the budget. I pointed him to the page in the budget where Crown Corps capital is identified so he's fully aware of that.

Crown Corps Council doesn't make decisions in lieu of any Crown corporation; they respond to the Crown corporation's priorities as identified by them and then make an assessmen t of whether or not the capital they're asking for to meet that priority is sufficient. They have done that every year. In the previous government, they'v e done that every year and in this government. The member is just twisting the facts. Family Choices Program Government Announcement Ms. Erin Selby (Southdale): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Family Services and Housing announced Manitoba's new five-year ag enda for early learning and child care today. Can the minister please tell the House how Family Choices will benefit all Manitobans? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Well, Mr. Speaker, we certainly have heard from parents and–well, we are parents. I think that's a big part of what we're doing.

But, we've heard clearly from parents about the challenge of balancing work and family and so therefore today, we've introduced a five-year, 12-point strategy called Family Choices that will address just that. Since coming into office, we've added 7,000 more funded spaces in the course of eight years. In the next five years, 6,500 more funded spaces, Mr. Speaker, up to 35 more child-care sites. I was very pleased to be there with the Minister of Education where also we announced a $37-million capital fund, particularly focussing on child-care spaces in our schools. Thank you.

1206 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 Roseau River Land Transfer Service Agreement Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, it's been almost a year since government transferred land to Roseau River First Nations reserve. To date, the R.M. of Rosser still has no service agreement in place. My question is to the Minister of Intergovern- mental Affairs: Can he take action today, enter a service agreement? Enough's enough. Municipality needs to know whether to go on with this project. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Intergovern- mental Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I think it's been almost that length of time since the member has been asking questions. He still hasn't taken the time to talk to the federal government which engaged– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, the treaty land and entitlement process– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I know there are 19 members across the way that can see the Harper government in Ottawa as doing no wrong here, but you know,– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Ashton: –well, maybe three or four. But, Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite knows or should know that that process was actually fast-tracked by the federal government. The member opposite knows or should know that in fact, if concerns had been raised there has been a mediator put in place, a former Conservative MP. Mr. Speaker, the member should know, or perhaps hasn't taken the time to find out, that that is not the responsibility or the jurisdiction of the provincial Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. It is the federal government. Maybe he should ask his federal colleagues. Potash Industry Government Initiatives Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, you know the Premier (Mr. Doer) likes to take us off on a different track sometimes when he's asked the question. The reality here is the Manitoba Potash Corporation is owned by both the provincial government and by BHP Billiton. On February 22 last year, the Minister of Energy and Mines announced that BHP Billiton would be investing $15 million into this project. Not a penny has been invested to date. That's over a year ago. The provincial government hasn't invested a single penny. The Saskatchewan mine wasn't even on the radar screen yet.

Today, that deposit is getting a $1.8 billion– I want to ask the minister: Where is the investment for Manitoba? Where is the work being done on our potash project? Why is he sitting on his backside doing nothing? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): The member opposite might not know this, but what you do in order to produce and develop a mineral deposit is you explore it. You analyze it. You find out whether it's commercially available to do. The member opposite never did this. The member opposite never had a company that would develop– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Rondeau: So we're working with BHP Billiton to do advance exploration, to do the exploration and homework to see if there's a commercial deposit, to see if the partnership between a real mining company and the provincial govern ment can go forward to create real economic development. You didn't do it. We're doing it. * (14:30) Mr. Derkach: I hope Manitobans are listening to how much this minister doesn't know about what was done at the site. The land has been assembled. The tailings area has been expl ored and engineered. The core samples are all sitting in Russell in a large warehouse. Mr.

Speaker, a tremendous amount of work has been done. He's talking about exploration. He's talking about to see whether it's got commercial value. This is one of the largest potash deposits in this province, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this is incredible. He told the community that yes, his government would kick some tires and see whether or not there was any commercial value in it, but I want to tell him the potash value has gone up by $400 a tonne. Mr. Speaker, when is he going to wake up? When is this government going to wake up and do something about this potential exploration crisis?

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1207 Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, I am very sorry to say that that member, when he was in Cabinet, was not able to put the puck in the net. I know it was sad that he had a partner that was in France that did not wish to put the puck in the net. I am pleased to say that we're working with the largest mining company in the world to do the final feasibility study to move the project forward, and we've had mine development under this government now and you didn't. You closed down mines, we opened them up. Just like Hydro, over and over again. Mr.

Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities Ms. Jennifer Howard (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities is a historic document that assures people with disabilities the right to full access. The declaration recently reached the ratification threshold needed to bring it into force on May 3. I believe it to be truly impressive that after only a year and a half from its adoption by member states this document ha s received the support of 20 UN members.

I stand with many in the disability community who look forward to Canada soon joining these countries to ratify this important document. Mr. Speaker, it is incumbent upon all of us to take the concerns of persons with disabilities very seriously. The UN estimates that there are at least 650 million persons with disabilities worldwide. In Manitoba, we have recognized the priority of having policies and programs that promote full citizenship by appointing the first-ever Minister responsible for Persons with Disabilities, my predecessor, Tim Sale.

We also opened the Disabilities Issues Office to co-ordinate this work. I was privileged to meet the staff of this office this morning and hear about the progress we have made and the work still to do. For persons with disabilities from around the world to know that governments are listening to their concerns is a step toward realizing human rights for all people. As someone who lives with a disability, being part of a government that is a leader on accessibility and equality is an honour.

I call on all honourable members to mark the ratification of the Declar ation on the Rights of Disabled Persons by learning more about what can be done to create a society in which all Manitobans can fully participate. Thank you. South Perimeter Bridge Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): Mr. Speaker, that cloud of steam you see rising from south Winnipeg is from taxpaying Manitobans frustrated by the Doer government's inability to get the westbound lanes of the south Perimeter Bridge over the Red River reopened.

The lanes have been closed since last fall when cracking was discovered on the newly rebuilt concrete bridge deck. When questioned recently in this House, the Infrastructure and Transportation Minister could not give a date when the lanes would reopen. The government admits that $12 million in taxpayers' dollars has already been spent on this bungled project. Tens of thousands of dollars more will be spent fixing it. If this government can't get its house in order, it's conceivable that bridge repairs will not be completed during this construction season and that the traffic problems will stretch into 2009.

In the meantime, questions remain about protecting public safety. The City of Winnipeg recently embarked on its long-planned repairs of the Fort Garry twin bridges on Bishop Grandin. Having lanes on the bridge over the Red River on the south Perimeter out of commission at the same time that the project on Bishop Grandin is under way could have an impact on the movement of emergency vehicles. This risk could certainly have been reduced if the provincial government had not bungled the repairs to the bridge over the Red River on the south Perimeter.

The south side of Winnipeg is growing rapidly with increasing traffic flows. It's critical that vital infrastructure projects are started and completed on time. As it stands, we are in a situation where motorists will face untold delays and Manitoba taxpayers will spend untold dollars to fix this government's bungled bridge project. The Doer government likes to trumpet it's infrastructure record. Clearly, it's not as good as they would like to lead you to believe.

If the situation with this bridge is an example of the NDP's ability to manage construction projects, then south Winnipeg motorists will be spinning their wheels in frustration

1208 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 for many months to come and, Mr. Speaker, that is simply unacceptable. Thank you. Granny's Poultry Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, Granny's Poultry is one of Manitoba's 50 fastest-growing companies for nine years. They opened their leading-edge head office and hatchery recently on Pandora Avenue in Transcona. The new hatchery will be the most energy-efficient and technologically advanced hatchery in the world. Granny's Poultry has been a member of Manitoba's prestigious top 100 companies for 23 years.

This fantastic new facility only adds to th e accomplishments of this home-grown Manitoba success story. With the growth experienced by Granny's Poultry, there was a need to increase both hatchery capacity and office space in Winnipeg. The new corporate office and hatchery positions Granny's Poultry to continue to be one of the most successful companies in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, one of the very exciting aspects of the new hatchery is that this facility would be the first in North America to utilize heat recovery technology.

This innovative technology allows the hatchery to capture the heat emitted by the development of a chick still in the egg. This heat can be used for operations in the building. The new hatchery will also have a geothermal component to provide all of the cooling requirements for the facility's incubators. Granny's Poultry has made a conscious effort to become a more water-conscious company. All of the water conservation measures in this new building will result in a projected 70 percent to 80 percent reduction in water consumption and sewer discharge.

With water becoming scarce globally, we all must do our part to decrease consumption. I was extremely impressed with all of their water and energy conservation measures when I had a tour of that facility. Granny's Poultry will also expect to save money on heating, water and energy costs with this new facility. This company is living proof that what is good for the environment is good for the bottom line. Congratulations to Granny's Poultry on the opening of this new facility. They have demonstrated time and again that they are living on the leading edge of business and environmental innovation. Thank you.

Jack Oatway Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, on April 20, at a special ceremony at the Fred Douglas Lodge in Winnipeg, Jack Oatway was honoured with a Love of Caring Award from the Fred Douglas Society. This award acknowledges his outstanding contribution and dedication to the betterment of his community, his steadfast support of local health care and a lifetime of volunteerism. He has given of himself to others and to his community and is most deserving of recognition of this award. Over his lifetime Mr.

Oatway has made countless contributions to the betterment of his community, the Rural Municipality of Rosser and the province of Manitoba. His dedication led him to serve as councillor for the Rural Municipality of Rosser from 1971 to 2002, and has been a long and active participant in the Lilyfield United Church. Mr. Oatway was appointed to the board and undertook the planning and construction of Rosewood Lodge Care Home in Stonewall. While on the same board he supported the expansion of the Dr. Evelyn Memorial Hospital. Mr.

Oatway has always promoted the importance of an active lifestyle, improving the lives of seniors in his community. He was a board member and volunteer driver for the South Interlake Seniors Resource Council and currently serves as past president of the South Interlake 55 Plus. Mr. Speaker, I ask the members here to join me today in congratulating Jack Oatway for being honoured for this very special 2008 Fred Douglas Humanitarian Award. His long service to health care and quality of life is selfless and remarkable.

He is an outstanding man for serving the citizens of his community with each endeavour that he undertakes. We thank him for his energy, his devotion in helping to make this community and the province of Manitoba a much better place to live. * (14:40) Government Crime Prevention Strategies Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Neighbourhood safety is an important priority for all Manitobans and, unlike our political opponents, our government recognizes that a successful crime prevention strategy needs to have both increased resources for prosecution and new resources for prevention

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1209 measures. With this in mind, I am very happy to report that we are making some very good progress on both fronts and pleased to provide a little bit of an update for honourable members today. Our province of Manitoba has gone from having zero Lighthouses in 1999 to having 52. Several of these are in my constituency, and they give young people a safe place to go for recreation and after-school hours. Last year alone there were almost 130,000 visits to Lighthouses across Manitoba.

Our Safer Communities and Neighbourhood Act has shut down 280 crack houses, drug dens, sniff and prostitution homes. This was legislation that the opposition ridiculed and now it's been very successful and other jurisdictions across Canada are copying it. I would also like to draw attention of all honourable members to a new confidential safety tips line being run at the communi ty level by the Spence Neighbourhood Association. This phone number, also with an e-mail component, enables residents to send in information on safety concerns.

This information is then funnelled directly to the Spence Neighbourhood Association' s safety co-ordinator, who can either investigate the issue in person or bring the information to the attention of the proper authorities. This new service has just been established, and the phone number is 783-0226. I wonder if other members might perhaps want to encourage their communities to bring in a similar effort. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to close off with a congratulations to Manitoba's Justice Minister for his fantastic work lobbying the federal government to toughen the Criminal Code of Canada.

On May 1, 2008, federal laws will change to raise the age of consent, to set mandatory minimum sentences for serious firearms offences and reverse onus to the offender for bail in serious firearms offences. Now, all of these are issues which our Attorney General (Mr. Chomiak), our Justice Minister has pushed for and Manitoba was once agai n a leader in bringing these improved laws to everyone in Canada. I'd like to encourage all members to join with their communities in the pursuit of a safer neighbourhood.

We all know that when governments and communities work together to combat crime, the results can be very inspiring and all neighbourhoods benefit. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please canvass the House to see if there's agreement for this week, on Tuesday and Thursday morning, for two sections of Supply to sit concurrently with the House while the House considers Private Members' Business, with no votes or quorum calls to be in effect. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement for this week, on Tuesday and Thursday morning, for two sections of Supply to sit concurrently with the House while the House considers private members' business, with no votes or quorum calls to be in effect? [Agreed] Mr. Chomiak: I thank the House. Mr. Speaker, would you also see if there's agreement for the Estimates of Agriculture to follow the Estimates of Finance in Room 255, and Infrastructure to follow Justice in Room 254. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement for the Estimates of Agriculture to follow the Estimates of Finance in Room 255, and Infrastructure to follow Justice in Room 254? Is there agreement? [Agreed] Mr. Chomiak: I, again, thank the House. Maintenant, c'est quelque chose de plus difficile, je pense. Translation Now for something a little more difficult, I think.

English Would you please canvas s the House to see if there's agreement for the bills that are to be considered this evening by the standing committees on Justice and Social and Economic Development, to have the distribution of any potential report stage amendments deferred until May 5? Just to clarify, the amendments would not be distributed until May 5, but notice of the amendments still needs to be provided to Legislative Counsel on April 29. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement for the bills that are being considered this evening by the Standing Committee on Justice and Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development to have the distribution of any potential report stage amendments deferred until May 5? Just to clarify, the amendments

1210 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 would not be distributed until May 5, but notice of the amendments still needs to be provided to Legislative Counsel on April 29. Is there agreement? [Agreed] Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I ask that we resolve to Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Will the respective Chairs please report to the appropriate committees. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE * (15:00) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions or comments. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Chair, I know that the Member for Lac du Bonnet would want me to say what a pleasure we had at the police charity gala on Saturday night and what an honour it was to have the police raise, in the last couple of years, another $100,000 for the children's health research centre, and to have one of the children that receive treatment there to be up speaking. It certainly dwarfs all of the speeches that we made. So I'm just sure the members would join me in congratulating the police for another fine effort. Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): I thank the minister for that particular statement. I share in those sentiments, and certainly, a great time was had by all in a very good cause. Even though I wasn't able to respond to what the minister said that evening because I wasn't an invited speaker, I'm happy to report that he did mention that I was there, which was a good thing, in any event, from my perspective. So, absolutely–[interjection] Oh, and he complimented me, yes, absolutely. I forgot to mention that. But, in any event, that won't get you off the hook for today.

My next line of questioning will deal with the Taman Inquiry. I note that in the green book, the Supplementary Information, Departmental Expenditure Estimates, th ere's a total of about $2 million allocated in this year's budget to conclude the inquiry. Mr. Chomiak: I do want to be a touch careful in terms of responding because all of these matters are I wonder if the minister could provide me with information as to a breakdown of that $2-million budget that's anticipated within the expenditure estimates. Mr. Chomiak: It's an estimate based on past experience of inquiries.

It is comprehensive to the extent that it covers the anticipated costs of the commission, which includes legal fees, rental fees, transcript costs and the usual costs associated with an inquiry of this kind. We hope within the $2-million figure to capture the costs of the commission, which is, of course, set to report in September. Mr. Hawranik: I take it, then, from the minister's response that it's sort of a ballpark estimate of the total inquiry costs.

I believe the inquiry's to take place in June, July and August, and the minister, from his comments, could he confirm that he expects the report to come forward in September? Mr. Chomiak: First off, in terms of the expenditure, it's based on experiences in other circumstances. Obviously, to the extent–we can't totally control the costs of the commission. For example, issues of standing and who has council standing, et cetera, can and has on occasion become an issue, with the commensurate legal costs throwing out, et cetera, but it's the best that we could guesstimate.

With respect to the timing, we're obviously very optimistic on the timing but that has been based on discussions we've had with the commissioner, and it certainly was–we had hoped for a relatively quick process based on the fact that the evidence and the information had been dealt with in other forums, and, of course, the public interest was such that we wanted it to be done as soon as possible. The time frame that was developed is an ambitious one, but to this point, it certainly appears to be on time. Mr. Hawranik: With respect to the enquiry, I notice that several parties have received standing.

I'm just looking at the list of parties that received standing effective February 4, 2008, and I note that Robert Taman has received full standing, and Marty Minuk has full standing. Am I given to understand then that full standing means that their legal fees will actually be paid out of the $2 million for that particular inquiry?

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1211 under the jurisdiction of the commissioner, and I don't want to tread into that area. Standing is determined by the commissioner, and legal costs may or may not be paid for by the department. Full and partial standing relates to what portion of the commission. There's a review of the prosecutions, review of the police and review of the victims' supports so ther e are different areas of investigation of the commission.

Some entities have been granted full standing for the entire commission, and some have been granted partial standing related to their participation directly in the events that the commissioner is examining. * (15:10) Mr. Hawranik: Okay, so the minister's indicating that the commissioner himself makes the decision what kind of testimony they would be giving or what kind of representations they would be in, certain areas of the inquiry and so on. I see that there are three, four, five, six–there's nine. As of February 4, 2008, there were nine parties that received either full standing or partial standing.

Can the minister indicate which of those will receive funding for legal counsel? Mr. Chomiak: I can say that, generally, when an individual is before a commission of inquiry of this kind, and the matter directly affects their reputation or themselves directly, the commission will ask–the individual will, obviously, be granted standing and the commission will recommend or suggest payment of those legal fees. Having said that, one would also assume that everyone who appears befo re the commission would love to have their legal fees covered.

There are certain practices that are followed here and in other jurisdictions as to what entity would or would not qualify for having their legal fees covered. Mr. Hawranik: I'm getting down to the particular parties that have received standing. I noticed that Derek Harvey-Zenk has received standing for investigation and prosecution issues. Has any decision been made with respect to covering his legal fees and disbursements? Mr. Chomiak: I'm sorry, you're asking about Zenk? Mr. Hawranik: Yes. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, any entities or individuals that have received funding for their legal costs have done so on the recommendation of the commission. Mr. Hawranik: Has the commission then recommended that Derek Harvey-Zenk's legal fees and disbursements be paid during the hearing, the inquiry? Mr. Chomiak: Yes, Madam Chairperson. Mr. Hawranik: I noticed that, as well, one of the parties that had received standing on February 4, 2008, was the Manitoba Bar Association. They had full standing, but they withdrew their participation on March 7, 2008.

Does the minister have any idea of why that would have occurred, why they would have actually withdrawn after having received full standing? Mr. Chomiak: We, actually, here thought that they had been granted some limited standing, but I'm not looking at the document. Nonetheless, I don't want to speculate as to why entities or individuals will withdraw or will seek to a ppeal as to whether or not they should be given standing by the commissioner. I can't speculate on that. Mr. Hawranik: As I understand from the Bar Association, they withdrew.

It may be a bit of a strange question because the Manitoba Bar Association is a group of lawyers, of course, but as I understood it, they wanted to have the Province fund their legal fees and disbursements as other parties to the inquiry have received. There may be some value in that, in having the Bar Association there, particularly since where they do represent quite a number of stakeholders; they really have a vested interest in the hearing itself.

They could make valuable recommendations to assist to the system itself and I think that's what the minister is looking for, recommendations to the Justice system itself, to ensure that this kind of thing doesn't happen again. There may be some value of the Bar Association making representations there and, while I don't make any comment as to whether or not, since the Bar Association is a group of lawyers, why they couldn't represent themselves.

One of the concerns I guess they have, of course, is that the Taman Inquiry could take a few months in the proceedings, and it certainly would be a difficult thing for a lawyer to do on a pro bono basis. So there may be some value for the Bar Association to be there at the inquiry. I'm wondering what the minister's thoughts are in terms of their value, first of all, to the inquiry and second of all, whether or not there is some merit in paying their legal fees and disbursements as well.

1212 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 Mr. Chomiak: I concur with the member's observation that there would be some value in having them participate. With respect to the issue of legal fees, et cetera, we've tried to follow the general principle of obviously paying the legal fees of those directly involved. On other related matters, as I indicated earlier, we've gone to the commissioner for advice as to whether or not legal fees and disbursements should be picked up by the Province. Mr.

Hawranik: To another topic in terms of the police act, I know that The Provincial Police Act hasn't been changed, I believe, since 1932. There has been talk over the last number of years, in fact, I think I asked the question in Estimates last year with respect to modernizing The Provincial Police Act to make sure that there's a uniform and appropriate training for all levels of law enforcement and security personnel in the province. My question to the minister is: Will he be reviewing the police act and if so, when will that occur or what kind of time frame is he looking at? Mr.

Chomiak: Yes, Madam Chairperson, we intend to review and bring in a new police act. There is a review process that is internal to the extent that it's not a public process in terms of public hearings, et cetera. There's internal process reviewing. I would prefer to bring legislation in for review and comment as soon as it's practical. Mr. Hawranik: I know we've been asking this question for a number of years. I know that it's important that we bring in an updated piece of legislation sooner rather than later.

So, given that fact and given the fact that there's an obvious need for this legislation, would the minister commit to a certain date or at least the latest date at which he may, in fact, bring in either amendments or revamp the act entirely? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, having been involved with significant legislative reviews in other areas, I would really like to give the member a definitive date, but I'm not going to because I have, in other areas, not been able to meet my targeted dates on legislation in other areas of government when I've been involved. When it's a significant review or reconstruction of

an act, it always seems to take far longer than one would like. So that's why when I answered the member's question, I said, as soon as practical, so there's no lack of effort in order to bring it forward. But I don't think I could get a definitive time line other than as soon as practical. Having said that, I would, as all members would, and I think the entire police and the entire community would, like to see a modernized police act as soon as possible. * (15:20) Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Chairperson, I do have a few questions, a couple of more kind of follow-ups from the other day and then we'll have some new questions. Last time I talked with the minister, I had asked the questions about the forfeiture act and he'd indicated that one of the biggest changes is from the police chief over to a new director in terms of responsibility. He was going to get back to me as to where that allocation actually is and if, in fact, it's allocated in the budget. Mr.

Chomiak: Yes, I believe it's on page 39 of the supplementary budget form that shows a nominal allocation of where two FTs are shown on page 39, relating to the establishment of the criminal forfeiture unit. Mr. Lamoureux: Okay. I don't actually have the Estimates book with me at this time. I was just more interested in finding out where it was that it was actually put into the budget. So that would be the only line in the budget that would deal with the enforcement aspect of the legislation? Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, as the deputy minister goes through the book: when we conceived of the idea of modelling legislation based on other jurisdictions, we put in two positions in the allocation. There are other positions in operating costs that will be dealing with criminal forfeiture when the unit is up and running and actually functioning on a full-time basis. That will take a while until the legislation passes and we actually have the legislative authority and then recommendations are made on through.

So we're tending to structure this over a year period because that was the time line, as I recall, that was given to us when we were looking at a remodelling of the criminal forfeiture act. A year to set up and operate a unit that would effectively function and have some effective resources come back. Ontario did a review of their act and did an update after something like five or six years and gave an allocation of how much property had been

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1213 forfeited. It was significant but not significantly more than the actual operating cost of the unit. So the obvious question is, why do it? And the obvious answer is, to disrupt and ca use difficulty for criminal organizations and to make consequences for their behaviour. We knew going in that assigning resources–it's always–resource allocation is a difficult issue. You assign more police officers; they're involved in solving more crimes; your statistics go up, and you have to make resource allocations.

You make resource allocations on the investigatory front for investigations that don't actually show up necessarily under statistics, except for our major crime bust that we've had recently. We're not expecting this unit to bring in so much money that it becomes a cash bonus to the Province. What we want to do is have a unit that puts a little bit of teeth and a little bit of fear into criminal organizations with respect to their assets. Mr. Lamoureux: This is what I was hoping to be able to get at and why I was wanting to find out in terms of where it's allocated.

I think it's important that we recognize what the actual cost of taking this direction and I would ultimately argue, even if it's kind of a break-even or not even quite a break-even, at the end of the day there's still a great deal of value to it. The concern that I have is that when we talk about legislation of this nature that we've got to be careful that we don't give a false impression that we're going to get great gobs of money and this money's going to be distributed out to victims when we know that, in the first few years, we don't really know what kind of money to look at.

It might be safer to say that, over the first few years, if we hit the break-even in terms of cost that it would probably be a good thing. Is that a fair assessment? Mr. Chomiak: That's not only fair; that's accurate. Mr. Lamoureux: I'll move on. The other issue that I had brought up, and someone had provided me some further information, it was in regard to MPI. I guess it wasn't a poll that was do ne; it was more of a study of individuals within our youth detention centres. These were young offenders that were incarcerated, and they were canvassed as to what they thought of the dispositions for their crimes.

Based on the results of that, I understand it helped form government positions, or it might have helped in formulating government positions on automobile theft. Given that it would have been a taxpayer study, would the minister be prepared to share that with us? Madam Chairperson: The honourable Member for Inkster, is that a public document that you're quoting from? Mr. Lamoureux: No, it's not. Madam Chairperson: No, it's not. Okay. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I know for a fact we provide more public documentation than any previous regime in history.

Having said that, when you get into the area of investigation or personal information that may or may not be utilized by either investigating authorities or other agencies to deal with a crime, we're on much trickier ground. I don't think we're in a position to make that kind of information public, other than perhaps general comments. If we have a strategy that helps to define how we are going to deal with offenders, it's probably best that we keep that information between the appropriate entities and not make it a public issue.

That's just, in my view, common sense, aside from the issue of legal and PHIA-related information. When you get into third-party, when you get into matters that may or may not be criminal, when you get into attitudes of those kinds, it's best that information, like any other information relating to investigation or prevention or developing strategies, specifically when it deals with offenders, I don't think it's in the public interest to provide that information. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I want to move on to an area of drugs, in particular with crystal meth.

Does the government or the department have any sense in terms of whether it's a guesstimate, an educated guesstimate, as to what sorts of numbers we're talking about in terms of crystal meth labs in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, we adopted a very aggressive strategy on crystal meth which was subsequently adopted by most other jurisdictions. It's interesting, at the last federal FPT conference, one of the Maritime ministers indicated that they didn't find a significant amount of crystal meth operations. We haven't either, and he concluded that it was because of the aggressive strategy.

I'd like to hope that, but I don't know. We haven't had any major crystal meth lab busts since I've been minister. * (15:30)

1214 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 Mr. Lamoureux: I take it, then, to mean the development of crystal meth is not really occurring in the province to a degree which we should be concerned about. Were ther e any labs that were found in 2007? Mr. Chomiak: Not that I'm aware of, but we will double-check. The fundamental issue is really one of prevention. First off, we know that crystal meth unfortunately is in use in Manitoba. It doesn't appear to be reaching the epidemic-like proportions that it has in several other jurisdictions in Manitoba.

I'm just saying that from my knowledge of the type of individuals thus far that have been apprehended under our legislation and some of my discussions with people in the field. Having said that, we have trained a significant amount of first responders in dealing with crystal meth labs and the dangers of crystal meth labs and a significant amount of front-end providers as to how to deal with coming upon a crystal meth operation.

In my discussions with western Justice ministers and others, we've all taken a bit of a deep breath and said, at this point, it hasn't appeared to hit with the volume with we earlier anticipated. You can't ignore and we know it's imported quite obviously in quantities. The aggressive strategy of both the advertising, the removal of products, the legislation, some of the restrictions that have been put in place and the training may have had an impact on the usage of crystal meth. What I hear on the street, I think it's accurate to say, that crack cocaine is the No. 1 problem still in Manitoba. Mr.

Lamoureux: With the manufacturing with drugs, you quite often get side effects that are fairly damaging to the environment, in the sewer lines and so forth, where things are just going to get washed away. Typically, the cost that would be involved in clean-ups, who would be covering that? Does the government attempt to recuperate cost or how does that happen, assuming that the messes are cleaned up? Mr.

Chomiak: It's an interesting question because I can remember in the development of the crystal meth strategy that we went through all of those implications when we were looking at legislation, et cetera, and ramifications, et cetera. What I do know is that in any drug operation the pattern has been developed. I heard this from a front line police officer who had a grow op on this block. The home was purchased at a very low cash payment, very high mortgage and is essentially a write off investment for individuals that run the operation.

They take a sort of business approach, I think, where they take a business risk approach and just assume they'll get a good return and then they'll eventually be busted and they write it off. The point is, their investments are not such that they can necessarily be chased down to recover the costs but to the extent that, if we can, we obviously will. The environmental clean-up is significant, if it's a crystal meth operation. I'm told it's literally a poisoned environment. There was, again, discussion.

We've trained our first responders to be conscious of the possibility, and if it is a possibility of being a crystal meth operation, presumably, the hazmat team would be the agency involved in actually undertaking the task. Then, after that, I think there would be follow-up in terms of, to the extent that we could, receive remunerati on from whomever for the clean-up. It is costly, but the thing I should have known but didn't, and one would have postulated this that, you know, people go in, buy houses in suburbia where you wouldn't expect it, run grow operations, but their investment isn't very extensive.

It's minor. The place has a high mortgage and they walk away from it. Mr. Lamoureux: You know, I take the opportunity to move into the grow ops issue. I know, a while ago, the province was talking about the possibility of legislation to deal with grow ops, and I don't know if something went by me and I didn't quite notice it, or maybe there's still something that's dealing with grow ops. I'm aware that, I believe, it's the police department that now posts houses that used to be grow ops.

Can the minister give any indication in terms of does the government have a strategy in dealing with grow ops, and, specifically, is there some legislation that's in the wings with regard to it? Mr. Chomiak: Can the member maybe clarify, as he springs the trap on me, as to what he's referring to? Mr. Lamoureux: Actually, there really is no trap on this particular line of questioning in regard to the grow ops. There was just an

article that had appeared in which it had indicated that Justice was working on possible, and I'm quoting right from it, and I can provide the minister a copy of it. It's an interesting link that was provided to me, and it just talks about the Province bringing forward

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1215 possible legislation to help police shut down marijuana grow operations which are thought to be fuelling violent crime in the city. I'll provide the minister a copy of it if he can just get it back to me just for my own personal record. Mr. Chomiak: What we have found really useful is our Safer Communities Act that's shut down a number of operations.

The key element there is that police just can't walk up to a house and, for no reason, go in and check it for a grow op, and that does allow for undesirables to inhabit homes and have either prostitution rings or crack houses or grow ops undisturbed by the law. * (15:40) So both the intent and the impact of having the Safer Communities legislation was that we have our own–like we're contemplating criminal forfeiture–we have our own branch of the department that monitors complaints against particular buildings and/or individuals involved in buildings.

The monitoring gathers evidence which is then utilized to, civilly, try to compel the owners to, in most cases, dislodge the tenants. That's been effec tive in about 300 cases. It was first here, and it was copied by virtually every jurisdiction in the country now. So, not only are we able to gather evidence, but we're able to gather evidence so that, on occasion, we'll also be able to provide it to the police to allow them to then have an opportunity to go in and do criminal searches.

It sort of fills the gap between: your home is your castle and ought not to be disturbed, and, your home is your castle and you're doing very bad things in there that affect the community, and how do we get to protect the community. I think that's probably, maybe, the reference, and if the member has any suggestions as to legislation, we're obviously prepared to deal with it. I had a discussion with the federal minister responsible for the Treasury Board, on Saturday night, where we voiced our concerns, publicly and otherwise, about a recent Supreme Court ruling on search.

I certainly will en deavour, as I think all ministers across the country and the federal minister will endeavour, to see what the impact of that Supreme Court ruling may be on searches and see that we can ensure that, while respecting Charter rights, we can protect the public from behaviour that is dangerous and has severe ramifications, particularly amongst youth. Mr. Lamoureux: I think that there's probably quite a commentary I could give in terms of when you say, shut down houses; some might say relocate. I think it's still open for debate in terms of the effectiveness.

In time, we'll see just how effective the legislation was, the Safer Communities. I think, to a certain degree, it has been effective. I just don't believe it's as effective maybe as the minister states it has. One of the concerns that I get, on an ongoing basis, is from individuals that will tell me that they've made someone aw are of a house with suspicious behaviour in the house, and a sense of frustration because something seems not to have been done.

I can recall comments, whether it's from a retired police officer to just a community resident on Burrows Avenue, saying, well, I'm absolutely convinced; showing me licence plates, incredible detailed information, and wondering why is something not happening in regard to that house. Being somewhat aware of the time, the only question that I'd really appreciate if the minister could answer, at this point, is in regard to automobile theft. It's important, and we always get into fairly heated discussions about automobile theft, but I would like to see us make sure that we're operating from the same numbers.

What I have found is you get different numbers from MPI than you would from the police force. You'll even get different numbers from MPI depending on which document that you might be looking at. So when I say, in 2004, there were 13,425 vehicles that were stolen, and I have a list of years indicating how many vehicles were stolen, I want to feel comfortable in knowing that it is the actual number.

I don't expect the minister to be able to provide me the number instantly, but sometime over the next 30 days, if I could be provided a list of vehicles, in the province of Manitoba, that have actually been stolen–not attempted theft, but actually stolen–ideally from 1999 up to today. If the minister can provide that at some point, I'd appreciate it. Thank you. Mr. Chomiak: Just three things for the member. First, I understand the issue. One of the main tools that we have in our arsenal to fight organized crime is disruption. Organized crime, in some form or another, has always been present.

The extent to which you can disrupt it–you can't eliminate it; I would be foolish to say that. That's the first point. I'm told, of the 280 houses shut down, there have only been five repeats of the same individuals, but

1216 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 we don't assume that every time we shut down a place that heaven on earth is going to appear. What we do know is that in a community like Point Douglas, where they're r eally pleased with what they've done, well, they're going to expand those efforts to other parts of Winnipeg. We know that places will move. I've been in these places. We know that'll happen, but for every person we pull out, for every one that goes into treatment, for every street that has one of these places removed, we're doing a public service.

It would be good, but I mean the reason for The Safer Communities Act was to fill a gap and we filled the gap. So it's a step forward. On auto theft numbers, I'll provide the member with a consistent sheet. The member could also know he could refer to–when he 's referring to different stats, crime stats has the attempts and the number on the Web site regularly. Auto thefts are down dramatically. Attempts are down dramatically. The information that I am provided is in fact on a month–You know, I actually am sometimes loathe to–because you never know.

I did criminal law and the weather always had a major factor in whether the Remand Centre was full on the weekend or not. You know, in minus 40 it wasn't that full. On a full moon–that's right. On a full moon, long weekend, like it was just jammed packed. Having said that, this last month has been the lowest month in auto thefts since 1993, and 1993 was the take-off year for auto thefts in Manitoba where it just went out of control and if we can even–you know, so we've made progress. I'll get the specific numbers to the member. Mr.

David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I just wanted to follow up in regard to what I mentioned to the minister about visiting an institution in Minot. It was Youth Jobs Corps, and it is in fact sponsored by the United States Congress at no cost to those persons that are residents and taking the vocational. I think we could actually look to how well that program really is addressing youth at risk.

I want to also follow up, though, about the frustrations of those personnel that are responsible for teaching in our corrections' facilities, and I will speak very specifically of the women's correctional facility, where the majority of persons that are housed at the women's correctional facility in Portage la Prairie are on remand. Being when you're on remand, you are not available to the counsellors, to the educators, to the resources of that institution that, in fact, address the problems that saw those individuals into the facility in the first place.

What really bothers myself, personally, is to see that the persons end up getting a double credit for days spent in an institution. [interjection] The minister recognizes the case law that recognizes significantly more days as time spent when in remand.

But I want to ask the minister: Could we not, because the individuals are there anyway, if we are going to see this double or triple credit, as seen in Alberta, actually come to fruition, that the individuals have to have had some of the benefits of that institution insofar as the counselling, the education, to really rehabilitate the individual so that that individual won't again be coming into our system because of conflict of the law? * (15:50) Mr. Chomiak: I agree with what the member is stating.

The one thing, if we could fix that, and we've strongly recommended, all the ministers, that two for one be legally clarified to be one to one, or at most 1.5 to one, that legally we do that and that it be done in the Criminal Code. That would decrease substantially, I think, the number of people in remand. The fundamental issue, though, is, if you're in remand, you have to agree to some form of counselling or rehabilitation because you're presumed innocent until–it is a catch-22 situation. I know the member's frustrated and it is frustrating. There are some legal principles we have to follow. I think two things.

I hope there will be a judicial or a legislative end to the two for one. Whether or not that will withstand co urt challenges is another thing, but I'm hoping that they'll do that. Secondly, I know we'll see a different form of corrections' involvement when the new facility's constructed. It will be constructed and will be meshed and built with programming and the ability to have people return, as whole as they can, to full-functioning members of society as much as possible, with that as the major goal. Mr. Faurschou: I want to emphasize once again the importance of education.

There is study after study which will bear the statement out that persons that are better educated are far less likely to come in conflict with the law. If you speak with the teachers in the women's correctional facility, it varies from time to time, but between grade 6 and grade 8 is the level of formal education on average of the individuals serving sentences at the Portage Correctional facility.

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1217 You can see that the work is cut out for us. We have to provide for an education and give individuals the ability and self-esteem that is garnered from education. I know the minist er and I are both on side in that regard so I leave that with the minister. I'd like to move on to one other issue of his responsibility as minister of the Crown and that is the gaming for The Gaming Control Act.

It is just a very quick question in light of the most recent plebiscite results in Brandon, a few years before that, the same results in Headingley here, just west of Winnipeg. We wonder if, at that point in time, though, there was an extensive exhaustive competition for potential casinos by First Nations here in the province of Manitoba. Is the minister looking at reopening that, being that there is now only two of the five after this length of time operating? I ask that on behalf of Chief Meeches who has launched a campaign now for a potential site to be in Portage la Prairie for a casino.

Madam Chairperson: Honourable Minister, just before you– Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if I could pre-empt, if we can have leave of the committee to have the member ask a question with respect to Manitoba Gaming Control Corporation during this round of Estimates for one question. Madam Chairperson: Is there leave from the committee for the member to Portage la Prairie to ask a question related to the Gaming Commission while we are in the Justice Estimates? [Agreed] Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I thank the committee. We've been very consistent in regard to gaming.

Following the Bostrum report, recommendations were made with respect to casino proposals. The legislation had changed. A review was done following the casino initial offering of sites to First Nations. We reconstituted a committee with AMC and worked with AMC on a committee that reached, at this point, two conclusions: First, that a gaming trust would be set up with a portion of revenues from lotteries going directly to a First Nations development fund called the First Nations peoples fund, where a guarantee of approximately $2 million a year would go to First Nations for economic development fund.

A board of directors was established, comprised of prominent Manitoba business people, to make recommendations as to where that funding should go. That was the first aspect. The second aspect was to determine the future of gaming sites in Manitoba. We commissioned a report and a study that indicated there would be viability of a casino within 100 kilometres of Brandon. To that end, we then went back and the committee recommended that Brandon be looked at as th e site for a second–for a plebiscite–for a casino. A plebiscite was held and it was defeated in Brandon.

We're now meetin g as a committee to look at proposals to have a casino site within 100 kilometres or so of Brandon that would meet the criteria, as defined in the consultant's report that was made to both the Province and AMC during our process. In short, we sit at a table with AMC and have committed to continue to work on the rollout of providing job opportunities–economic opportunities to First Nations people. We have the trust fund. It's now been set up, and we'll see $20 million flow over a four-year period. We also will find an alternative site for a casino to be run and operated by AMC. Mr.

Faurschou: Plain by the answer, asking that question, it was out of scope for this particular section. Might I ask for future re ference at what

section could I pose this line of questioning without requiring leave of the committee? Mr. Chomiak: I actually think that it comes under the auspices of standing committees or Crown corporation committees, I thin k, and doesn't come to the Estimates process, in the best of my knowledge. Mr. Faurschou: So then next week, when we get Crown corps–corporations and standing committees, that's the opportunity then to dive more fully into this question? Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, since the Gaming Control Commission generally fits into the category of commissions, most questions with respect to lotteries, et cetera, are asked at Lotteries Corporation and that's generally been the forum where these matters have been discussed. * (16:00) Mr. Faurschou: That's where I did get into this line of question. Again, it was determined that it was out of scope for the Lotteries Commission because it was under The Gaming Control Act, which was different from this. I know I've asked this question of the

1218 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 Clerk's office and it is sort of a fuzzy-grey area at best. In any event, I appreciate the minister taking the question. I wanted to raise the issue in regard to Long Plains First Nations and Dakota Plains First Nations as well, that have both expressed an interest in seeing the exploration of their First Nations for a potential casino in Manitoba. Mr.

Chomiak: I actually am very excited about the prospect of another stream of revenue to First Nations and very excited by th e prospect that all 62 or 63 First Nations in Manitoba will have the opportunity to share both in the revenues and the profits from that operation, because it has become one source of economic development.

It's certainly not the be-all and the end-all, nor should it be, but it has become one source of employment and revenue that assists communities that otherwise have literally, literally no opportunity for economic development because of where they live in terms of parts of the province and in communities.

We provide assistance to municipalities and the First Nations reserves are totally under federal control, but we have significant involvement, and we want to ensure that economic development occurs as much as possible amongst First Nations to allow them to develop as individuals and as communities up to the standards that are appropriate in a modern Canada. Mr. Faurschou: I appreciate the minister's response and we'll leave that area of questioning. I'm understanding, back to the area of Justice, my colleague from Beausejour, Lac du Bonnet, has asked questions on probation.

I want to be more specific in regard to those probation services that are co-ordinated with First Nations and the actual monitoring follow-through the department does to make sure that the probation officers along the reserves do have the resources in order to be able to follow through with court or ders. I'm afraid, in some cases, this is not taking place and the probation requirements are not being fulfilled on reserve. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, ultimately, the issue of probation and probation services comes down to the individuals involved, and one obviously aspires to have the system as effective as possible. We are in review mode with respect to agreements that we have with a number of communities, and we are also aware that there ar e resource implications in a number of communities that we are going to endeavour to meet. Mr.

Hawranik: I just had a follow-up question to the MLA for Portage la Pr airie when he was asking for the double-time remand credit that has been given by judges in this province, and that's been happening for many, many years, as the minister well knows. A lot of it, of course, comes from the fact that there was a Supreme Court of Canada decision, which in many ways binds the court. But some of the reasons they gave for the decision were because they validated the two-for-one credit because of, first of all, a l ack of proper facilities and a lack of rehabilitation programs.

Now, I think it's widely acknowledged that the two-for-one credit may n eed changes federally in order to deal with that particular issue, but regardless of that, there is a role to play by the Province and that role has to be ensuring that there are proper rehabilitation programs in place and proper rehabilitation facilities. Is this something that the minister's going to be addressing because certainly it's not just good enough to point to the federal government. There is a role to play by the province and something has to be done with respect to programs. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I agree with the member's statements. When we met in November, a shiver went through the entire table because an Alberta court had awarded a three-for-one credit in some recent rulings, and I've heard since that an Ontario court has ruled four to one. That's based, I think, on some faulty reasoning, but nonetheless, the member's right, we're required to follow the ruling of the Supreme Court on this. We have asked that the government legislate a target of–Manitoba's proposed one to one, all the ministers in general have felt that they could probably get away with 1.5 to one.

So this is one area, on all the discussions we've had with the federal government with respect to specific legislation, I don't think we've got a specific answer on this issue. Whether or not that's because in law it's felt it's too difficult, it has been in the top two or three issues that are raised every meeting, and it's been long-standing, as the member acknowledges. With respect to the rehab, I think all jurisdictions–let's face it, with the two for one, remand has become a way of mitigating sentences. We are faced with the dilemma of someone in

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1219 custody, presumed innocent, and if they want to participate in any kind of programming, they have to do so, I guess, essentially voluntarily. The ADM says–it's pointed out to me–in order to take

part in the volunteering program, one must accept responsibility for one's actions, and that is more difficult if you're saying you're not guilty. So, yes, we think the solution is to lessen the credits given on sentencing from remand. It almost certainly will reduce the number of inmates on remand. I was going to start reflecting on some of my experiences in criminal justice, but then I thought I don't have to because the member's encountered the same thing. * (16:10) Mr. Hawranik: As a follow-up question to the Member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux), he was asking about grow-op operations within the province itself, and there'd been many documented cases over the last few months where grow ops have been shut down across the city, across the province. Of course, in many of those cases, though, they're using purchased homes, homes purchased by the accused and so on, and, in many cases, they are not always paying cash. Sometimes they're all cash transactions and sometimes they're not. Sometimes they've got a mortgage on it.

When that grow op is shut down, of course, if there's a mortgage, they'll likely go through foreclosure and so on, and they'll pay off the mortgage and then the expenses. But we've seen an increase in the real estate market here in Winnipeg. Can the minister indicate, due to the increase in the real estate market in Winnipeg, the increased values that are attributed to homes throughout the city and throughout the province, whether, in fact, any money has flowed to the Province under our proceeds of crime legislation as a result of shutting down these grow ops? Mr.

Chomiak: I'll reply to the member's question in a second. Just to set the reco rd straight on the federal government, on a release from the last FPT meeting, the ministers discussed the credit being given for pre-trial. The ministers reconfirmed the October 2006 agreement that credit for pre-sentencing should be limited to a maximum of 1.5 to one. When the accused has been detained due to his or her criminal record for having violated bail conditions, the maximum ratio should be one to one.

We encouraged the federal government to proceed and quote: The federal minister confirmed his commitment to addressing this matter. So it was a stronger commitment than, perhaps, the impression I left with the member in terms of the one for one. As has just been explained to me, the assets, when an operation like a grow op has been shut down, move under the federal act of the proceeds of crime into our internal RCMP division and the money remits to the federal government.

There's an agreement between the Province and the federal government where, on a quarterly basis, some funding is remitted to the Province of Manitoba as a result of the federal proceeds of crime legislation. Mr. Hawranik: As the minister well knows, we have The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act, which essentially would do the same thing but would require an application by the Province to seize that particular asset, if it could be proved that the asset resulted as a result of the criminal activities. Has The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act at all been considered to be used in cases like that? Mr.

Chomiak: The way I understand it, the big money and the big operations that go under the federal operation, that's the money that's seized, the cash and the value, et cetera. The proceeds of crime at the federal level is a much bigger opportunity. The gap is precisely what the member has identified which is why The Criminal Forfeiture Act was first enacted. The difficulty is that the police have not utilized the act, which is why we, like Ontario, are going to set up our own internal division that'll chase down these kinds of proceeds.

In the scheme of things, it's relatively small amounts of money, on a relative basis, that's up. The federal Criminal Code–and remember, mostly these are drug-related so that falls under federal prosecutions–most of that will work under the Criminal Code. The big money goes under the Criminal Code. It's the smaller amounts that we hope to capture but, in order to do that, we need someone to do the investigation and the follow-up, and that has been the failure of the previous act. I'm not critical of the police.

It's been too small potatoes relative to the other activities they do for the police to follow up on that. That's why we're changing our operation to internally do what the police don't have time to do. As I explained to the Member for Inkster earlier, it won't recover the big money or be the big cash bonanza that people might think. Hopefully, it'll at least cover its cost of operation and maybe earn a little bit of profit, but the fundamental issue is to

1220 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 2008 disrupt and get at criminal organizations just to make it harder for them to do business. So I hope that captures the essence of the member's question. Mr. Hawranik: So, if I understand the minister correctly, the money is really being seized at this point or the asset is being seized under the federal proceeds of crime legislati on, and there is a sharing between the federal government and the province.

Can the minister indicate how much money–take, for example, last fiscal year–did the federal government give the province under that particular piece of legislation? Mr. Chomiak: I'll either provide the member with a copy of the agreement and/or the respective data. Mr. Hawranik: Just a general comment to the minister. I personally know of several cases where there was no mortgage at all. The reality is some of these people come in and they buy a home in a rural area, in particular, all furniture and other assets included, for cash.

That had been happening in some rural areas so the amount of money that can be realized from after they've been charged for taking their home back and all the furniture can be a substantial amount of money to the Province. So it's something that–and I know the minister is out looking at–he's got a bill now amending our particular Criminal Property Forfeiture Act, Bill 14, and it's modelled, I believe, after Ontario, that particular piece of legislation. Does he believe then that we would certainly be able to seize assets and is there any kind of projections as to what effect that bill's going to have?

Right now we're getting absolutely nothing other than what the federal government gives to us. Under that particular piece of legislation, are there any projections as to what we'd be able to get under The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act, say, in the next year or two? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, the member had questioned last year about the utilization of cash and cash transactions. There is a federal agency that actually monitors all cash transactions at certain levels and under certain conditions that–there's been criticism as to the effectiveness. I think that it is working.

Now, on the recent report that I saw from Ontario and their criminal forfeiture act, it showed several million dollars, if memory serves me correctly, in terms of seized criminal property under that operation. The projections that I have from the department are that in the first year or two, we'd be fortunate to cover our operating costs. We could expect a modest positive cash situation, but the example that the member–there have been examples.

We'll say someone blows into town and buys a farm property and operates a farm there–farm not a conventional cash crop but a different kind of cash crop and it's all paid for in cash. Presumably, that transaction would be monitored and picked up under the–but such amounts of money passing would, you'd think, would presumably be picked up. Having said that, if it's busted, it would be busted under federal prosecutions and jurisdiction. They would take all of the assets.

The extent to which Manitoba participated or was involved, I think we'd get a share. * (16:20) What I do know, what I've been told is that, in the past, bigger amounts have been captured by the federal government and smaller amounts have not been picked up. Our hope is to pick up some of these smaller amounts and, cumulatively, hope to have an impact. I don't want to promise that The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act will be an operation that's going to garner millions and millions of dollars.

We do want it to pay its way and we do want it to have an impact on people out there who are involved in illegal activities. Mr. Hawranik: Last year the police raided the Hells Angels' clubhouse. Can the minister indicate whether or not, under the federal Proceeds of Crime legislation, whether that clubhouse was seized? Mr. Chomiak: No, I don't believe it was. Mr. Hawranik: Any reason why, under our particular legislation, that clubhouse wouldn't have been seized for the Province? Mr.

Chomiak: I think that one of the purposes of our act is to allow us to have more powers of seizure in this area and that's what we intend to do. Mr. Hawranik: Certainly, under the existing provincial legislation, our existing Criminal Property Forfeiture Act, they do have powers of seizure. Is there any reason why that piece of legislation wasn't used, at least for that purpose? It seems pretty clear that the Hells Angels have been ruled to be, in Québec, a criminal organization. We have a number of Hells Angels arrested at their clubhouse, certainly with illegal firearms and the like. I think the

April 28, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1221 argument could have been made at the time that–and probably should have been made at the time, it may not even be too late to do that at this point–but why aren't we acting to seize that particular clubhouse? If we're serious about getting after gangs and criminal organizations and really getting in their face, why wouldn't we do that even at this stage? Mr. Chomiak: I can't talk about a specific site or specific location.

We have not been successful at scheduling gangs as criminal organizations and scheduling, say, as we have for example, with terrorist organizations–which I actually think is a good idea, but we have been unable to have–and a recent B.C. court case affected that. We have asked that scheduling be

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-2-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 2nd hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	aaa6578b3c6db922d425a7f4bc87f25c8a0b35a1

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