Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 76B (40th Legislature, 4th Session)

40-4-76b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXVII No. 76B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, November 3, 2015 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James, Hon. Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BLADY, Sharon, Hon. Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna, Hon. Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne, Hon. St. James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Greg, Hon.

Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon.

Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MELNICK, Christine Riel NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Thomas, Hon. Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa Seine River NDP PALLISTER, Brian Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder, Hon. The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie, Hon. Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC Vacant Gimli – Vacant Southdale –

2829 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, November 3, 2015 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: Good afternoon, everyone. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Mr. Speaker: Introduction of bills? Seeing no bills, we'll move on to committee reports. Tabling of reports? Ministerial statements? MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Interprovincial Migration Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye) : Manitoba is the best province in this country to call home. While Manitoba welcomes thousands of new international immigrants on a yearly basis, we lose many Manitobans due to interprovincial migration. Mr.

Speaker, according to recent data from the TD E conomics, Manitoba has the second worst interprovincial migration rate in Canada. In 2012, the province lost over 4,200 Manitobans to other provinces. Manitoba has some of the highest popu- lation losses in Canada due to interprovincial migration. This is a very serious problem for Manitoba because the largest demographic of indi - viduals leaving Manitoba are our youth, those between the ages of 20 and 27. Everyone in this House agrees that our youth are our future.

We are losing some of our brightest and ha rdest working young people to other provinces, and they usually don't come back. There are several reasons our youth are leaving this province, and the NDP government can take credit for all of these: their high -tax policy, a payroll tax and all the road blocks they've put in the way to start a small business. Manitoba has the lowest number of small-business employers per capita. It is clear that this NDP government is driving away Manitobans, especially our youth. As our population continues to age, it is this demographic that we–most essential to have in the province.

The youth are very important to us. While the NDP may boast about spending taxpayer dollars in various departments, one thing is clear: Manitobans are paying more and getting less. Manitobans want and deserve a change for the better. This change will come in April 2016. Kildonan-East Collegiate Girls' Club Hon. Erna Braun (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Two years ago, teachers Angel Audrey and Deanna Michaleski -Tellier at Kildonan - East Collegiate decided to start a girls' club.

Today we are joined by members of the girls' club, Angel and Deanna and Sigrun Bailey from the RENN Trail Committee with her husband Chuck. Welcome. Now in its second year, the girls' club is a place for students to meet and talk about issues faced by women in their community, nationally and globally. They participate in events like the international day of the girl, collect donations for women's organizations and create projects to encourage women and girls to share with and learn from other strong women in their community.

The club's latest project is a series of sculptures on the life cycle of the monarch butterfly, displayed along the Northeast Pioneers Greenway trail. Led by artist Denise Préfontaine, the club met with women of all ages to work on the mosaic tiling. Later, the girls will work with RENN Trail Committee, Naturalists Society and the City of Winnipeg parks to plant milkweed, a food source for butterflies, around the sculptures. While building the sculptures, the women and girls shared stories with each other. Having female role models is crucial for young women.

They gain an inner strength and confidence from their interaction with other women, and it's important we foster the sense of female community in young girls. It's up to all of us to ensure that schools and teachers have the resources they need to help their students create healthy, respectful relationships. We now have antibullying legislation to give schools those resources, including our safe and inclusive schools act and our Tell Them For Me student survey. We want every single child in Manitoba to feel safe at school.

Groups like the KEC girls' club are instrumental in creating space for young girls to support one another, skil ls that will carry with them into womanhood. Thank you to the KEC girls' club, Denise Préfontaine and the RENN Trail Committee for your

2830 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 beautiful contribution to Winnipeg's public arts scene. As well, thank you, Angel and Deanna, for your dedication to our future female leaders. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may have leave to include the names of the girls in the club for the public record. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to include the names in the Hansard proceedings of today? [Agreed] Members of the Kildonan-East Collegiate girls' club: Mary Anderson, Keyanna Downey, Ben Greskiw, Sarah Frederikson, Ga- Young Kim, Beth Kostyk, Angie Oritz, Jordann Relph, Tania Wiebe Children in Care Mr.

Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak today about the crisis in Child and Family Services in Manitoba. As everyone in the House knows, we have a record number of children in care in this province, with the April number showing 10,861 and the number still rising. We also know that the large number of children in care is a symptom of lack of support of families in the system affected by CFS. Why is it that we have so many more children in care than other jurisdictions?

Saskatchewan, for example, with a similar de mographic to us, with the exception of a lower population of French, has a mere 4,600 children in care. Why do we have such a significant difference? When we look at the breakdown of children in care in Saskatchewan, we find, and in fact, only 60 per cent of their children in care are First Nations, where our own corresponding number is over 90 per cent many times. Why is it we have done so poorly in regards to this?

If you look at the results in terms of children in care, based on first advocate–or, sorry, Children's Advocate office reports, we find that there is absolutely no reason to believe that children in care in Manitoba are any safer than in any other province. In fact, our numbers in terms of incidents with children in care seems to be corres pondingly higher than almost any other province in the country, Mr. Speaker. So we certainly have a crisis situation in regard to Child and Family Services, and we are making no progress, Mr. Speaker. Earl Grey Community Centre Ms.

Jennifer Howard (Fort Rouge): I need only go a few blocks anywhere in Fort Rouge to see that our neighbourhood values a strong spirit of community. Our NDP government shares this belief that community is more than a word, it's vital to our well-being. That's why we created the Winnipeg Community Infrastructure Program, and that's why we're investing $30,000 to help the Earl Grey Community Centre renovate its kitchen and office space. These upgrades will support Earl Grey's programs for people of all ages. For young athlet es, there's competitive basketball.

For seniors, there are weekly gatherings for cards and conversation. For families with young kids, there's Ride and Play, a drop- in play group where kids can make crafts, solve puzzles, build with giant blocks and jump in a bouncy castle. It's a way for parents to get out of the house and spend quality time with their children and their neighbours. My family has enjoyed many of the Family Fun Nights regularly held at Earl Grey. Thank you to the staff and volunteers who make Earl Grey one of the busiest community centres in the city.

They coach the teams, they run the canteen, and they write the grant applications that result in new investments in the community. Rather than making deep cuts that hurt families, our NDP government chooses to invest in com - munity organizations that matter to people in Fort Rouge and across Manitoba. We want community groups to have what they need to be the heart of our neighbourhoods. Thank you. Canadian Fossil Discovery Centre– Event of the Year Award Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden-Winkler): Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure to rise today and draw attention of this House yet again to the Canadian Fossil Discovery Centre in Morden. The CFDC recently received another award, this time from Manitoba Tourism for Event of the Year in the $5,000-and-under category. The centre received the award for their unveiling of Suzy the mosasaur, the centre's most important display in the last 10 years. Suzy the mosasaur was unveiled in March of 2015. At nine metres long, she

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2831 was discovered in 1977 just northwest of Morden very near to where Bruce, the museum's other prize mosasaur, was found. Suzy is now exhibited in the CFDC alongside Bruce the mosasaur in the Mosasaur Hall. Mr.

Speaker, with total t ourism funding in the province sitting at just $7.5 million, which is half of what is spent in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and less than half that is spent in PEI and our neighbours in Saskatchewan, this award obviously would not have been possible without the financial support of many local community groups and businesses, the City of Morden, the hard- working staff and board and volunteers. We know that tourism funding has stagnated in this province. Despite receiving $250 million in tax revenue, the NDP has failed to act.

The CFDC should be commended for being able to succeed and to thrive in spite of the lack of support that this government has shown for funding tourism in this province. We congratulate the CFDC. * (13:40) It says a great deal ab out the passion and commitment that the museum has for the work they are doing for their collections, for their exhibits, for their programs. And I congratulate the CFDC on this award and wish them continued success in the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: That concludes members' statements. * * * Mr.

Speaker: And just prior to oral questions, I'd like to take a moment today to welcome and introduce to the House one of our new pages who is joining us for this session. We have Julia Antonyshyn who is a student at the University of Winnipeg Collegiate. And on behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you here to the Manitoba Legislature and wish you well in your time here. Thank you. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: And also seated in the public gallery we have family members of our other page, Hilary Ransom.

We have Joan Ransom, who is the mother, and we have Gail Kennedy and Terry Kennedy, who are the grandparents of Hilary. Welcome, also, to the Manitoba Legislature. ORAL QUESTIONS Untendered Contracts Reporting Timeline Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, a year ago, Mr. Speaker, today a year ago, we had a little rebellion in this province, an unfortunate event that was historic in its nature. And I understand the present for an anniversary of one year is paper. I was going to table the 300 pages of blacked-out documents for the Premier to reread and study, but I'll save him the effort.

They're all blacked out, so I won't bother. I want to ask him a question about The Financial Administration Act, though, because it speaks to the causes of the rebellion. The Financial Administration Act was drafted 20 years ago, and it was designed to protect taxpayers against irresponsible spending such as untendere d contracts that an irresponsible government might give out to their friends. Now,

section 80 reads that any untendered document shall be reported within 30 days, shall be being, of course, the strongest word, I'm told, Mr. Speaker, that can be present i n any legislation compelling action. Shall be reported in 30 days. I want to ask the Premier in respect of this legislation: Is that law optional? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we've had a Auditor General's report on contracts and how they should be reported.

We followed the recommendations put forward by the Auditor General instead of the system that the Conservatives had when they were in power of being on a single terminal in the Legislative Library. We now put them fully online, and we are complying with all the recommendations of the Auditor General, and that's the way it should be.

We should take advantage of our independent officers of the Legislature when they give us constructive recommendation and move forward and provide informat ion within the para - meters of the freedom of information protection act that we have in Manitoba, and that's exactly what we do. The member opposite knows full well if he has any concerns about any of the information he's received, at the bottom of every page of information he 'ceives' –receives, he can make an appeal to the Ombudsman. He's never made an appeal, which tells us that he's posturing in the Legislature again.

Instead of following the procedures that we've all

2832 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 agreed to to allow him to make an appeal, he forgoes the appeal and tries to score political points through grandstanding in the Legislature. Nothing new, we've seen it many times before, and I suspect we'll see it in the subsequent questions. Mr. Pallister: Well, a smattering of applause from a divided caucus. And the Premier's response reveals that he hasn't learned anything from the experience.

He claims he's following in the Auditor General's recommendations, but after the Auditor General's report came out, the Premier still backed his minister in trying to give away an additional $5-million untendered contract to a party pal. Now, shall –shall–report within 30 days, that doesn't mean maybe or could or might or flip a coin. It means you do it or you break the law. Now, the minister in charge of Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation purchased, through six different contracts, over $9 million of Tiger tubes from a pal. Now, not once, Mr. Speaker, did he report those untendered contracts.

Not once did he report them within 30 days, not once. Can the Premier confirm that the minister broke the law? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I repeat for him: the recommendations we received from the Auditor General to improve transparency requirements with respect to contracts that are rendered in Manitoba have been completely followed by this government. And as a matter of fact, if we vote on the budget implementation act, there is additional provision in that legislation which will again increase the ability to be fully transparent on contracts i n Manitoba, Mr.

Speaker, and that's the rules we're following and that's the recommendations we're following. The member full well knows that. We're focused on providing good value to Manitobans. The member opposite has said he would cancel the infrastructure program in Manitoba where we do a variety of contracts throughout the entire province to improve our roads, to prude –to improve our water and sewer infrastructure, to ensure Manitobans have good jobs. We're doing that to build a better Manitoba. He wants to cancel those contracts?

It's no wonder he's not interested in the subject; he wouldn't be rendering any contracts because he wouldn't be doing anything to build a stronger Manitoba. Mr. Pallister: Well, the people who know him best rebelled be cause of those kinds of answers. Mr. Speaker, they rebelled a year ago and they're still rebelling, but quieter right now. Now, fully transparent–the Premier just used the phrase fully transparent and good value, yet he and his minister colluded in tryin g to give away $14 million of untendered contracts to the same provider, a friend of his party. The law says shall –shall–report within 30 days.

The law says shall, Mr. Speaker. That means do it. Don't talk about doing it later, do it. The minister gave six different untendered Tiger Dam contracts to his pal. The minister of MIT did not report even one of them. He reported zero of them, nada, zilch, none at all. So at least he was consistent; he broke the law every single time. Now, the Premier, who caused this rebellion by ignoring this conduct, has also done nothing at all. Would the Premier today stand up and accept responsibility for causing the rebellion within his own caucus and within his own party a year ago? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, every time we get a recommendation to improve the procedures of government with respect to anything, including contracts and increasing transparency, we have followed it, and that's exactly what we've done in this case. The member oppos ite knows full well that the only contract that has been made available for Tiger Dam tubes into the Interlake was done by the federal government, which is currently under investigation. The contract that we rendered for $5 million was tendered. It was not awarded because the federal government moved ahead and provided the equip- ment themselves.

We will follow the transparency requirements as recommended to us by the Auditor General. We've put them online now. If the members opposite would move more rapidly to pass the budget implementation bill, we could put additional measures in place for transparency. That's what we will do as we roll out a record infrastructure program that requires tendering and allows us to build the streets, the highways, the water

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2833 and sewer projects which will make life better for all Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Pallister), on a new question. Reporting Practices Mr. Pallister: The Premier (Mr. Selinger) knows so little about sh opping he's not even discouraged by the fact that Saskatchewan's now shopping without giving Manitobans a chance to bid on the jobs. He's not even concerned. It took him six months to even call the Premier of Saskatchewan on it. The minister really, really went over the 30 days, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, the six different Tiger Dam contracts, none of them tendered, none of them made available on the website as they should be by law – not one –took over 12 years to actually appear on August 28th, magically, this year. Twelve years: The minister waited a total of over 2,300 days to report the first contract he gave. Now, we've established that reporting for this minister, reporting untendered contracts isn't even an option if he's giving them away to his pal. If he's giving them away to his pal, then he doesn't have to report them.

So I have to ask the Premier: In The Financial Administration Act of our province, a law designed to protect taxpayers, is there a special category exempting the member from Thompson? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier, we have increased the powers of the Auditor General's office to give them a greater ability to examine any question that they think is important in Manitoba, and they have done that. And when they make their recommendations, we follow them. There was an outdated system in place by the members opposite. We have modernized that system.

And the largest untendered contract ever ren - dered in Manitoba was when the member opposite privatized the telephone syst em. There was no tendering on that. They bulled that through the House. They made every Manitoban pay for it. They took Manitobans from having the lowest rates for the telephone system to having among the highest rates. Every time they open up a bill on their cellphone now, they can remember that the largest untendered contract was by the Leader of the Opposition when he broke his promise and privatized the telephone system. Mr.

Pallister: The Premier claims accountability, but he's only accountable once c aught. Mr. Speaker, once he's caught he is then accountable, he says. However, he uses the word transparency today but refuses to table any evidence at all that isn't blacked out as far as the Tiger Dams contract is concerned. Then he says he's not going to do anything at all for months on end about the minister trying to give away a seventh untendered contract to his pal. * (13:50) Now, maybe it's a two -tier law –maybe it's a two-tier law. Let the Premier explain this. Although the member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) not once reported $9 million of untendered contracts as the law requires, he did manage to report thousands of other contracts totalling hundreds of millions of dollars. It seems like he picks and chooses the contracts he wants to report. Now, the law is designed to protect taxpayers. How can it possibly work when the minister feels that he's not obligated to obey it? Will the Premier recognize that in not overseeing this properly, he has become an accomplice to that minister's misconduct? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, what we have done is we've taken the recommendations provided to us and we followed up on them and increased transparency with respect to contracts in the province of Manitoba. The member opposite complained about the special co ntract that we put in place to protect Manitobans with an air ambulance service. He said that should have been tendered out. We entered into that contract for the air ambulance service at a time when Manitobans' lives were at risk and there was no other provider of that service available in the country.

We took the advantage of providing that service to Manitobans so that lives would be saved, and we did it for a compelling reason: There was a very serious flood going on in 2009 and in 2011. So we provided that service to Manitobans and we made sure that that service was improved when we saw that there were difficulties in the way the service was provided. That puts Manitobans first. And we continue to put Manitobans first with our infrastructure progra m. Just yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, we put Manitobans first when we did a QuickCare clinic announcement, which provides more service to all Manitobans when they have a minor medical need. What's the policy of the Leader

2834 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 of the Opposition? A two- tier health -care system. And I can tell you right now when he goes to a tier-tell health–two-tier health-care system, he won't be tendering it. Mr. Pallister: I see the Premier's (Mr. Selinger) very tender on these questions. Now, he actually had the nerve to cite the helicopter contract which the Auditor General said the government broke every rule in the book giving out.

But the very contract he refused to shop, which he now claims he did for the good of Manitobans, he did so he could do a PR announcement just before the last election. Everybody knows that in this province. Obviously, not the man for change. He's learned nothing over the last year at all. So the minister–let's get it straight. The minister reported untendered contracts except when he gave them to pals of his party. His Cabinet colleagues got tired of $9 million worth of coziness and balked at a further $5-million untendered contract.

The Premier failed to stand up to the MLA for Thompson, as he's doing again today. And all Manitobans got to watch the spectacle of five senior Cabinet ministers walking out on their Premier because of it. Now, either the Premier covered up the $9-million untendered Tiger Dam contracts or he didn't know, so I want to ask him this: Which is it, incompetent or in on it? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, the member knows full well the $5-million contract that was being proposed for the Interlake was fully tendered and not awarded because the federal government moved ahead with their own approach to that, which is currently under investigation. Those are the facts on the record. And when previous contracts were reviewed by the Auditor General and recommendations made, we followed those recommendations, Mr. Speaker, and we provided a higher level of transparency on recording those contracts than was ever provided by the members opposite.

They had never provided any transparency themselves in the way that we are doing now. We have taken it to a new level of transparency. We're prepared to take it to an even higher level of transpare ncy as soon as the members opposite allow the budget implementation bill to be passed. And I say again, the largest untendered contract in the history of the province: the privatization of the telephone system. They tried to privatize the home-care system and they weren't able to get away with it, and they weren't prepared to tender it either.

And now they're talking about a two -tier health-care system, which means more privatization, and they have no plans to tender that as well, Mr. Speaker. They want t o bull it through against the will of Manitobans, who support a universally accessible and affordable health-care system. Winnipeg ERs Performance Targets Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): This NDP government has failed to achieve a series of performance targets in our Winnipeg ERs. In fact, fewer ER patients are seen within four hours now than they were three years ago, yet another broken NDP promise. Mr.

Speaker, is this because, as the former minister of Justice said a year ago, and I quote, the Premier has become more concerned about remaining leader than necessarily doing the things in the best interest of the province? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Acting Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the fact that we've hired more doctors, opened more beds, hired more nurses and set targets speaks to the openness of this government.

The fact that we've allowed this information to go online and this information to go to the opposition speaks to the fact that we're prepared to be open and accountable for what happens in this province. We aren't doing things behind closed doors. Yes, it's true that the WRHA has admitted it did not hit its targets, Mr. Speaker, but it's better to have targets that you don't hit than to fire nurses and fire doctors if you don't have any he art–any targets to shoot at. Mrs. Stefanson: Manitobans deserve a government who will put patients' lives ahead of their own political self-interest. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Health (Ms. Blady) has failed to keep her promises on ER wait times and admissions in Winnipeg, putting patients' lives at risk, while at the same time has allowed admin - istration costs to skyrocket. This jeopardizes much needed patient health care in Winnipeg. One year ago today, the member for Seine River (Ms. Oswald) left he r Cabinet post, citing that there was a, quote –there was, and I quote, an inability to be heard on some important issues. Mr. Speaker, does the minister agree with her colleague from Seine River? Is that why ER

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2835 wait times are on the rise? Will her Prem ier (Mr. Selinger) just not listen? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, we have 22 clinics that are either been built or in the process of being built. We have, for the first time in history, and I believe other provinces are looking at the fact that we've opened QuickCare clinics. Now, those QuickCare clinics are staffed by nurses, by specially trained nurses. Nurse prac - titioners, they're called. I want to remind members opposite that they cancelled those training programs. They had no nurse practitioners.

They cancelled the training programs. We've brought it back. We have more nurses, which allows us to open QuickCare clinics that allows you to take a patient, if it's not in an ER situation, to go to a QuickCare clinic. Mr. Speaker, we may not have reached our targets, but we didn't have to close the largest hospital in the history of Manitoba, the Misericordia Hospital, and we still reduced times from times when members opposite would not put those waiting lists either– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister's time on this question has elapsed. Hydro Development Rate Increases Mr.

Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): A year ago today, the member from Minto said that the Premier has become more concerned about remaining leader than necessarily doing things in the best interest of the province. I would like to ask the Minister of Hydro: As every member opposite went door to door and told Manitobans that Bipole III and Keeyask would not cost them a cent, would he agree that the member from Minto was right, this Premier cannot be trusted? Yes or no? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro): No. Mr. Eichler: Mr.

Speaker, a year ago today, the member from Fort Rouge said this: For me is acutely a fact of my ability to be heard on some very serious issues. End of quote. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister responsible: When every member opposite went door to door and told Manitobans that hydro rates would not rise as a result of Bipole III and Keeyask – instead, we now know that hydro rates will either double or triple in the years to come –was the member from Fort Rouge right? Mr. Robinson: Again, Mr. Speaker, no. Infrastructure Projects Approval Method Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, one year ago today, the MLA for Seine River said, quote: It's become clear if you are in a position where you support the point of view of the Premi er that your priorities and your projects move up the queue. End quote. Mr. Speaker, is that how this NDP government prioritizes infrastructure projects? If an NDP LA – MLA supported the Premier today, do they get a new road? Do they get a new bridge? And y ou get a new road, and you get a new road, and you get a new bridge, but only if you're a favourite of the Premier, not if it is in the best interests of Manitobans. Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, finally a question about infrastructure. * (14:00) And the simple answer, Mr. Speaker, is there's not an MLA in this House that hasn't benefited from the historic investment in infrastructure that we've made. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker, the MLA for Seine River went further and said that projects move up the queue, quote, ahead of what was once a government plan and what would be, indeed, the priorities of Manitobans and what Manitobans need, end quote. Mr. Speaker, it had –has become what the Premier needs, not what Manitobans need.

Is that how infrastructure planning is carried out in the Premier's world? Mr. Ashton : Well, in the real world of infrastructure, you start with a vision, and we had Manitoba 2020 vision. It outlined the need for investments in infrastructure. The second thing you need is to put in place a plan, and we have a plan. The third thing you do, and, you know, you need the revenue source, and we put in place the 1 cent on the dollar. We, Mr. Speaker, year over year over the last two years, have had historic increase.

This will be – I'm giving away probably a bit of a sneak preview of our press conference we're going to have on

2836 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 Thursday–the best year ever for paving in this province. So the way we do infrastructure, we have a vision, we have a plan, and we get it done. Violence against Women Protection Order Review Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's rate against violence against women is double the national average. Protection orders are only one tool, but for them to work they need to be accessible, they need to be obtainable, and they need to be enforceable.

Fourteen years ago the Minister of Justice, the same Minister of Justice that we have today, put out a press release talking about the need to strengthen protection orders and protection for women. Today, 14 years later, he is again reviewing protection orders, and more than half of them are denied. Why has it taken 14 years and tragic, tragic circumstances, Mr. Speaker, for this minister to finally get around to working on protection orders? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, first of all, Mr.

Speaker, there's been some horrific tragedies in this province over the last several weeks, and I think it's due in all of us to wish all strength to the surviving families. This is the most difficult times of their lives. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, it's important that we learn from those lessons. And, yes, indeed, in 2005 we strengthened the protection order legislation in this province and we expanded it to those that are suffering at the hands of usually fellows in teen dating relationships and for elders who are suffering at the hands of who they thought were loved ones.

But it is high time that we redouble efforts, that we look at what lessons can be learned and strengthen protection orders in this province, and I hope to work with all members, not on a partisan basis. Mr. Goertzen: And, Mr. Speaker, that's the same promise and the same commitment that the Minister of Justice, the same Minister of Justice, made 14 years ago. Even if protection orders become more accessible and they become more obtainable, they still have to be enforceable. When there are breaches, we need to ensure that those breaches are followed up and that they're taken seriously.

Yesterday in committee, the Minister of Justice indicated that the NDP would be breaking their 2011 election commitment on hiring more police officers because he indicated that there are enough police officers. If that is the case, how is this Attorney General, this Minister of Justice, going to ensure that these protection orders are actually enforced? Mr. Mackintosh : Well, to the first part of his question, Mr.

Spea ker, protection orders have to be followed up by officials that are assigned that res - ponsibility, whether they be police or prosecutions, and we have been recognized for a very strong con- tinuum of care in this province in a follow -up to domestic violence situations. But we cannot stop and we cannot rest on any laurels, Mr. Speaker, because it's still not good enough. Any time there's a tragedy, it must spur us to further action and look to make sure that all steps can be taken.

In terms of Winnipeg Police Service, we rely on the Winnipeg Police Service to write its multi -year plan and how its policing resources should be dedicated. If the member wants to take over WPS, he's in the wrong Chamber. Mr. Goertzen: Mr. Speaker, this is an Atto rney General, this is a government that made a promise on policing. They made a promise 14 years ago to get protection orders right, 14 years ago. More recently, in 2011, the government indi - cated that they were going to be using electronic monitoring ankle bracelets for the enforcement of domestic violence.

Yesterday, the minister indicated that after four years there are only eight –only eight– units being used to ensure that domestic violence perpetrators, those who are in danger of reoffending, are actually under electronic monitoring. Broken a promise on police, broken a promise on electronic monitoring in terms of having it being robust 14 years after he said he's going to get it fixed. Mr. Speaker, why should people believe him now that it's going to get better? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Manitobans know that this province has the highest policing per capita, Mr. Speaker, and we support that. And, indeed, Mr.

Speaker, we've had a 650 per cent increase of funding to Winnipeg Police Service to help them with their policing. But they're

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2837 telling us it's not more officers they want. They want smart policing; they want analysis; they want data-driven policing. And the reductions of crime are extraordinary that I'm seeing from Winnipeg Police Service as a result of this change in policing. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, there's been a 41 per cent reduction in crime severity in Manitoba over the last decade. And members opposite might say, well, it's going down in other places too; that's the biggest reduction in Canada. We have to continue on that path.

We have to continue, though, working in partnership with Winnipeg police, not telling them what to do. Proportional Representation Request for Government Support Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, there's a steadily growing appreciation that dem - ocracy will be improved by moving toward a form of proportional representation. Indeed, Manitoba Liberals have all not only recognized this but have committed to move the province toward this enhanced democracy. I ask the Premier: Does the NDP government support the Manitoba Liberal initiative to move toward proportional representation? Hon.

Gre g Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the website actually says something different. It says they support studying it. And, of course, we would obviously be open to studying any system, that we've had similar systems in Manitoba in the past. They were changed in 1957 under the Roblin government of the day, who went to a first-past-the-post system. We've made very significant forms in dem - ocracy, Mr. Speaker. We banned corporate and union donations, was not supported by the members of the opposition.

Banning corporate and union donations put the purchasing power for democracy back in the hands of the average citizen. We've supported public support for political parties in Manitoba; the opposition has resisted that and voted against that on a continuous basis. That allows political parties to offer more independently from fear of favour of corporate or of big -business influence or big influence from anybody in particular. We want to –we've opened up our polls to allow people to vote anywhere they live in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, and we've made advanced polling more frequent in Manitoba.

We're open to any good ideas on i mproving democracy which will allow the people of Manitoba to get good quality government, which they deserve. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, proportional repre - sentation can result in a Legislature composition which is better representative of all Manitobans. Manitoba Liberals have already announced that they would bring in proportional representation. Would the Premier himself support a Legislature which better reflects the wishes of all voters, using proportional representation as Liberals will do? Mr.

Selinger: As I said, I'll give him the –repeat the answer I made on the first time he queried me on this. We're open to studying, along with the member opposite. These questions are important in how we can improve democracy. I only wish the member opposite would stand up and say he did not –that he supports our legislation to ban corporate and union donations. I hope he supports the bill that we have in front of the House right now which moves us towards a permanent voting list, Mr. Speaker. And we've s een in the federal election onerous requirements for people to identify themselves when they go to the polls.

We have a system in Manitoba where you can vouch for somebody when they go to the polls, and our Chief Electoral Officer has said that's a very sound system which allows more people to vote. We do not want to put that at risk like the members of the opposition do. That would disentitle people that are senior citizens. That would disentitle people without driver's licences. We want every Manitoban to have the right to vote, and I hope the member from River Heights will support that initiative and not pretend that –he has opposed it in the past, and he has opposed banning corporate and union donations. Mr.

Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the Premier should check the facts before he makes statements. But, Mr. Speaker, I see that the Premier is uncertain about where he stands on proportional representation. While the Manitoba Liberals want to move forward with proportional representation and a system in which the Legislature better reflects the

2838 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 desires of all voters, the NDP and the Premier remain stuck and unsure of where they stand. * (14:10) Why, after 16 years of government, is the Premier not able to state clearly where he stands: for or against proportional representation? Mr. Selinger: I've answered that question twice, but he speaks to the issue of greater representation in the Legislature. And that is one of the most important things in a democracy, is to have people in the Legislature that reflect all the peoples of Manitoba.

And I'm proud of the caucus that we have on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker. We represent all the different parts of Manitoba. We represent indigenous people. We represent people of visible minorities. We represent women and men, of course. And we represent people from all parts of Manitoba: the North, the rural areas, the urban areas. And we look forward to encouraging more people to enter into the democratic process and presenting themselves for office. That's the key, is recruiting good quality citizens, of which we have over a million in Manitoba, that want to consider presenting themself for public life.

And we know–we know–that there are people that want to do that, which is why we've reformed the rules of this Legislature to make it more family -friendly so people can actually come and be in this place and still be able to have time for their families. These are all measures to make a democracy more accessible, to make democracy more account - able, to make the democracy fairer by banning corporate and union donations, and I invite the member to look at a broader discussion on how we can strengthen the democratic fabric of this province. Trans Canada Trail Funding Grant Mr.

Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): With so many gorgeous locations in Manitoba, it's no surprise that Manitobans everywhere really look forward to a chance to get out and explore the beautiful parts of our province. And as witnessed by our $100- million parks program, our government is firmly in support of that, unlike the opposition parties who seem to can't wait to bring in an era of privatizing and cuts and hacking and slashing. And we actually believe government should make life better, not worse, or, as it were, forward, not back, as someone wisely put it once.

I'm wondering if our Minister for Agriculture and Rural Development might be able to inform the House of just the latest initiative our government has launched to help people enjoy our great outdoors. Hon. Ron Kostyshyn (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development): Today I was proud to stand with the Premier (Mr. Selinger) and the minister of local government to make an announce - ment of our commitment of $800,000 to help complete the remaining

section of the Trans Cana da Trail through Manitoba. While the opposition wants to cut, we've invested over $5.75 million to the Trans Canada Trail, to development in Manitoba. We are proud of Manitoba is what is it doing in its part of encourage Canadians to get out and explore what the province has to offer. Thank you so much. Assiniboine Valley Flood

(2011) Compensation Claim Settlements Mr. Cliff Cullen (Spruce Woods): Mr. Speaker, it's too bad the minister hasn't been around for the last four and a half years to support agriculture producers in Manitoba. Today we acknowledge the four -and-a-half-year anniversary of the 2011 Assiniboine valley flooding below the Shellmouth Dam. Agriculture producers have still not been paid, despite promises made by this Premier. The gove rnment is clearly hiding behind their own legislation in not dealing with these claims from four and a half years ago caused by artificial flooding. Mr.

Speaker, one year ago, the member for Southdale said, and I quote: People feel angry. They feel the Premier has broken their trust. Does the minister responsible agree with the member for Southdale that the Premier has broken his word on this file? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): First of all, Mr. Speaker, the member's incorrect. Over the last decade there have been numerous years in which we have made payments. And I point out to the member opposite that the key element with the Shellmouth Dam is in terms of artificial flooding.

We actually did put in legislation that mirrors what has been in place for a number of years in the Red River Valley.

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2839 We have also asked, by the way, for a review not only of the operating rules of the Shellmouth Dam, but we have indicated our willingness to look into how the program is adm inistered. I point out again there are other programs that have been in place, agricultural supports for natural flooding. And, Mr. Speaker, we have provided com - pensation, but we've indicated to producers in that area and the municipalities in that area that we're also prepared to look at some changes, both on the operating side and in terms of the programs.

But, again, we have provided assistance. Mr. Cullen: Mr. Speaker, this minister has dropped the ball for four and a half years. Clearly, agriculture producers are angry with the Premier and this NDP government. Producers were forced to sign documents saying they would not sue the government prior to even discussing any flood claims. What a disrespectful way to carry out business. Four and a half years later, claims have still not been paid, despite promises from this government. Mr. Speaker, one year ago, the member for Minto (Mr.

Swan) said, and I quote, t here's a lot of evidence and realization that there are many people in Manitoba that are angry with this Premier. Mr. Speaker, does the minister responsible agree with the member from Minto that many Manitobans are angry with the Premier over this issue? Mr. Ashton : Mr. Speaker, I point out again that it was this government that actually brought in the statutory coverage. When members opposite were in government, there was absolutely no legal recog- nition of the fact that there are circumstances where there's artificial flooding the Shellmouth Dam.

I point out that not only in terms of the Shellmouth but in terms of Lake Manitoba, Lake St. Martin, the Assiniboine valley, it was this government that was there for flood victims. And I put on the record t hat when we were fighting with the flood in real time, I wonder where the Leader of the Opposition was, someone who likes to get up every day and lecture us in terms of floods. Bottom line, when he was minister of EMO in the '90s, he quit. And when there w as a major flood last time in 2014, we don't know where he was. Infrastructure Department Yearly Funding Record Mr.

Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier, and, I understand, the minister of not making public tenders to friends, are going to do a publicity event announcing conspicuous construction. Now, there's only been one department of this government that's been under budget, and that has been the case now for five consecutive years, 'til this year, of course, a pre -election year, Mr. Speaker. Only one department, every other department over budget, the result, of course, doubling our debt in the last six years.

So that department, these ministers are –now, I understand from the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), they're going to celebrate how much they're spending this year just before an election. But I wonder if the Premier would make it clear to Manitobans the reasons why the Infrastructure Department was underspent for the last five con - secutive years by this government. Can he make that clear? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, every year we've increased the spending on infrastructure in Manitoba. That means more roads have been improved. That means more flood protection has been provided.

That m eans more sewer and water programs have been put in place. And every year we've ramped it up to a higher level. We brought in the five -year, 5 -and-a-half- billion-dollar program to improve infrastructure in Manitoba. We did that with an analysis by the Conference Board of Canada that that would generate 60,000 jobs. We've seen that steady increase. We've said, if there's ever a reason that the budget is underspent in a particular year because of a weather event or early freeze- up, that that money would be rolled over to the next year, Mr. Speaker, and we have done that.

We've rolled that money over to the next year to make sure it stays committed to infrastructure, and that has resulted in a good summer this year with excellent weather and a record build this year of over $1 billion. And if there's ever a reason why the money can't be spent because of weather events, it's rolled over to ensure Manitobans that they will get value for the

2840 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 money and the infrastructure they need to improve our economy and have good jobs in Manitoba. Mr. Pallister: Well, the Premier's integrity is the only thing that's rolling over, Mr. Speaker, and dying. The fact is for the last five years the govern - ment's underspent on infrastructure, taken the money and put it into other departments of government because it didn't value infrastructure.

And when they raised the PST, it took them a full year to figure out – through internal polling, I expect –that infrastructure is something we should invest in on a regular basis. Now they claim they love infrastructure, but for five years they didn't, Mr. Speaker. They took the money away and they put it in every other department of government but that one. The Premier speaks about spending appropriate amounts except because of weather. Saskatchewan was right on their budget exactly.

Ontario was 1 per cent under their budget over that same time period, and this government was over 20 per cent underspent on the very thing they're now running on. The thing they claim they love is the thing they hated for five years. Can the Premier explain that to Manitobans, please? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I actually just explained it to him. The increase in infrastructure spending has been on an upward trend every single year. Any money that's not 'expent' because of specific reasons has been rolled over to future years.

And that's a very direct contrast to the member opposite. * (14:20) As a member of government, he raised the gas tax and cut the highways budget. He took more revenue out of the pockets of people that drive the roads: truck drivers, Manitobans, individual vehicle owners. He took more money out of their pocket and actually cut the highways budget, Mr. Speaker. That infrastructure deficit is what we're addressing today. The deficit in infrastructure that is the legacy of their time in office is exactly what we're doing today. And, Mr.

Speaker, our debt is lower as a pro- portion of the economy than when the member opposite was in office, and our cost of servicing the debt is 5.6 cents on the dollar. When the member opposite was in office, it was 13.3 cents on the dollar. We're getting more value for the money. The money we're spending on servicing the debt is 58 per cent less, and we're creating good jobs in Manitoba. And what is the Leader of the Opposition's approach to that? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. The honourable First Minister's time on this question has elapsed. Mr.

Pallister: No, cancel the government–cancel the government. Interest rates were six times as high – interest rates were six times as high –and the Premier isn't even concerned that now we pay about the same amount in interest on our debt as when interest rates were six times as high. Mr. Speaker, basic financial management, the member doesn't get it. He doubled the provincial debt in six prosperous years. He cut our credit rating in good tim es. He raised our PST. He raided the rainy day fund, and now he's claiming he's a friend of infrastructure, and he's raided it for years. Where's the credibility in that?

Explain that. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite had no rainy day fund. We put $800 million aside in the good times to buffer the –[interjection] The member opposite seems to be concerned. Yes, they only had a rainy day fund when they sold off the telephone system. We know that. We kept all Manitobans' assets whole. We put money aside during the good times to buffer and support the economy during the difficult times, and who supports our policy?

None other than the former governor of the Bank of Canada David Dodge, who has said, at these very low interest rates, and given the need for infrastructure to allow for further economic development in Canada, it really does make sense at this point in time for governments to borrow in order to finance that infrastructure. We're doing exactly that, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition defies all the good wisdom in this country and says he would cancel the program, cancel good jobs, cancel opportunities for infrastructure and put the Manitoba economy in the tank. Mr.

Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: We'll now move on to petitions.

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2841 Manitoba Interlake–Request to Repair and Reopen Provincial Roads 415 and 416 Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The Interlake region is an important trans - portation corridor for Manitoba but, unfortunately, is still dealing with serious underinvestment in infrastructure under this provincial government.

Provincial roads 415 and 416 are vital to the region but have still not been repaired or reopened since sustaining damages during the 2010 flood. Residents and businesses in Manitoba Interlake are seriously impacted and inconceived by having no adequate east -west travel r outes over an area of 525 square miles. This lack of east -west travel routes is also a major public safety concern, as emergency response vehicles are impeded from arriving in a timely manner.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to repair and reopen provincial roads 415 and 416 to allow adequate east-west travel in the Interlake. This petition is signed by R. Bruce, R. Bruce, A. Good and many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In keeping with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they're deemed to have been received by the House. Applied Behavioural Analysis Services Mr. Ron Schuler (St. Paul): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present t he following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The provincial government broke a commitment to support families of children with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, including timely diagnosis a nd access to necessary treatment such as applied behavioural analysis, also known as ABA services.

(2) The provincial government did not follow its own policy statement on autism services, which notes the importance of early intervention and ABA therapy for children with autism.

(3) The preschool waiting list for ABA services has reached its highest level ever with at least 68 children waiting for services. That number is expected to exceed 148 children by September 2016 despite commitments to reduce the waiting list and provide timely access to services.

(4) The current provincial government policy now imposed on the ABA service provider will decrease the scientifically proven, empirically based and locally proven program and force children to go to sch ool at age five before they are ready, thus not allowing them full access to ABA services promised them as they wait on their wait-list.

(5) Waiting lists, forced decrease in services and denials of treatment are unacceptable. No child should be denied ac cess to or age out of eligibility for ABA services. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the ministers of Family Services, Education and Advanced Learning and Health consider making funding available to address the current waiting list of ABA services. This is signed by H. Musto, N. Vesbury, B. Campbell and many, many other fine Manitobans. Beausejour District Hospital– Weekend and Holiday Physician Availability Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The Beausejour District Hospital is a 30 -bed, acute-care facility that serves the communities of Beausejour and Brokenhead.

(2) The hospital and the primary-care centre have had no doctor available on weekends and holidays for many months, jeopardizing the health and livelihoods of those in the northeast region of the Interlake-Eastern Regional Health Authority.

(3) During the 2011 election, the provincial government promised to provide every Manitoban with access to a family doctor by 2015.

(4) This pro mise is far from being realized, and Manitobans are witnessing many emergency rooms limiting services or closing temporarily, with the majority of these reductions taking place in rural Manitoba.

2842 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015

(5) According to the Health Council of Canada, only 25 per cent of doctors in Manitoba reported that their patients had access to care on evenings and weekends. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government and the Minister of Health to ensure that the Beausejour District Hospital and primary -care centre have a primary-care physician available on weekends and holidays to better provide area residents with this essential service. This petition is signed by D. Long, E. Long, D. Sproult and many other fine Manitobans, Mr. Speaker.

Bipole III Land Expropriation– Collective Bargaining Request Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And this is the background to this petition:

(1) On November 19th, 2014, the Premier authorized an order -in-council enabling Manitoba Hydro to take valuable and productive farmland from its–for its controversial Bipole III transmission line project without the due process of law.

(2) On November 24th, 2014, the minister responsible for the administration of T he Manitoba Hydro Act signed a confirming order for the province of Manitoba declaring that no notice to landowners is required for the seizure of property.

(3) This waiver of notice represents an attack on rural families and their property rights in a modern democratic society. There was not even an opportunity provided for debate in the Manitoba Legislature.

(4) In many cases, the private property seized has been part of a family farm for generations.

(5) Manitoba Hydro has claimed that it has only ever expropriated one landowner in i ts entire history of operation.

(6) The provincial government has now gone ahead and instituted expropriation procedures against more than 200 landowners impacted by Bipole III.

(7) Since November 2013, the Manitoba Bipole III Landowner Committee, MBLC, in association with the Canadian Association of Energy and Pipeline Landowner Associations, CAEPLA, have been trying to engage Manitoba Hydro to negotiate a fair business agreement.

(8) For over 14 months, the provincial government and Manitoba Hydro have acted in bad faith in their dealings with Manitoba landowners or their duly authorized agents. The se actions have denied farmers their right to bargain collectively to protect their property and their businesses from Bipole III.

(9) MBLC and CAEPLA has now –has not formed an association to stop Bipole III project and they are not antidevelopment. * (14:30)

(10) MBLC and CAEPLA have –has simply come together, as a group of people, a s Manitobans, to stand up for the property rights and the right to collectively bargain for a fair business agreement that protects the future and well-being of their businesses.

(11) MBLC and CAEPLA are duly authorized agents for Manitoba landowners who wish to exercise their freedom to associate and negotiate in good faith. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government immediately direct Manitoba Hydro to engage with MBLC and CAEPLA in order to negotiate a fair business agreement that addresses the many legitimate concerns of farm families affected by the Bipole III transmission line. And this petition has been signed by G. Reimer, B. Klassen, B. Reimer and many, many more fine Manitobans.

Request to Reduce Speed Limit along Road 9E, La Salle, Manitoba Mr. Shannon Martin (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to the petition is as follows:

(1) The community of La Salle, Manitoba, continues to see significant residential growth, including new developments along Road 9E.

(2) As part of this growth, additional active transportation improvements are being constructed

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2843 by the RM of MacDonald, including the installation of walking paths.

(3) One of these paths is less than 10 feet away from Road 9E, a gravel road where the current speed limit is 90 kilometres an hour.

(4) Families and individuals, including those with small children and pets, are concerned about the safety of using walking paths with high-speed traffic being within such close proximity.

(5) Interconnecting roads, including Road 47NE and Vouriot Road, have speed limits of 70 kilometres an hour and 50 kilometres an hour respectively. We petition the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba as follows:

(1) To urge the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to recognize the potential danger of allowing high- speed travel on a gravel road immediately adjacent to a walking path.

(2) To request the Minister of Infrastructu re and Transportation consider reducing the speed limit along Road 9E similar to Road 47NE and Vouriot Road. And this is signed by L. Giesbrecht, M. Lagace and M. Laval and many other fine Manitobans. Manitoba Interlake–Request to Repair and Reopen Provincial Roads 415 and 416 Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

These are the reasons for this petition: The Interlake region is an important trans - portation corridor for Manitoba but, unfortunately, is still dealing with serious underinvestment in infrastructure under this provincial government. Provincial roads 415 and 416 are vital to the region but still have not been repaired or reopened since sustaining damages during the 2010 flood. Residents and businesses in the Manitoba Interlake are seriously impacted and inconvenienced by having no adequate east -west travel routes over an area of 525 square miles.

This lack of east -west travel routes is also a major public safety concern, as emergency response vehicles are impeded from arriving in a timely manner. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge that the provincial government repair and reopen provincial roads 415 and 416 to allow adequate east-west travel in the Interlake. And this petition is signed by C. Berg, C. Moore and C. Capuska and many more fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: That concludes petitions. We'll now move on to grievances. The honourable member for Morris (Mr. Martin), rising on a grievance? No? Okay.

ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS (Continued) Mr. Speaker: So we'll move on to orders to the day, government business. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Could you resolve the House into Committee of Supply? Mr. Speaker: We'll now resolve into the Committee of Supply. Madam Deputy Speaker, will you please take the Chair, and the various committee Chairs to the committee rooms. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE * (14:50) Mr. Chairperson (Rob Altemeyer): Will the Committee of Supply please come to some semblance of order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice. As previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. Honourable Minister, you have the floor. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I think we left off with questions around recidivism and the definition of it, and the different approach to it across the country. The department just provided some additional information. I'll just share it briefly with the committee. I think we had already said that there was no national consensus and– not jus t in terms of

2844 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 definition, but even the time frames. A number of jurisdictions, though, do use the time frame of two years, and the Auditor General has asked us to have a look at that, which we are doing. But it's interesting to see that some jurisdictions include new charges, including administration of justice violations, new charges excluding administration of justice vio lations, new charges for violence following a conviction for violence –so they separate that out.

Then– and we're looking at –we're doing convictions now, so some others do that as well, the new convictions including breach convictions. And some do new convictions for violence following a conviction for a violent offence. But I think this is what is newsworthy. There is a national group that's studying this to try and get some common elements to the definition in place, and so that we can start to compare across the country and we can really rely on the best data possible. And what they're coming down to is thinking that recid- ivism itself, perhaps, isn't what is the measure.

It's recontact with the justice system, whether it's with the police or the courts or corrections. And so, in other words, we may be on the cusp of a very different measure of recidivism and hopefully one that has some national application. Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I think, then, if I understand the minister correctly, if we're moving back to –or going –possibly moving to a national standard–which I agree has, you know, positive elements to it–if we're moving to a system where a recidivist would be defined as somebody who has recontact with the system, isn't that closer to the system we had when it was about somebody was charged in the system we have now and is convicted? Mr. Mackintosh : The measure, tho ugh, may be recontact, but resulting in conviction, not charges. So that's the question that's outstanding.

I mean, let's face it, it would be a false recid - ivism rate if charges were–say there was five charges laid against an individual, those are all co unted and, in fact, there was an acquittal, an acquittal that wouldn't perhaps be as good a measure as we can attain. But, anyway, I think we'll have to be informed by the national group, and in the meantime we'll continue with the system that we put in p lace in, I think it was 2012. Mr. Goertzen: And I think the question that I was in the middle of yesterday when I got cut off, which was my fault, Mr.

Chairperson, because I think when I reset my clock due to daylight savings time –which is a whole another line of questioning–I think I set it five minutes off. So I thought I was on good time, and then I got cut off in mid-flight.

But what the question was about, if an individual has been released from a provincial correctional centre, and within two years t hey're recontact, they get charged, they're remanded and they haven't been convicted before that two year window closes, but they're in remand, somebody who's in remand in that scenario, isn't considered someone who is a recidivist because they haven't act ually been convicted. Is that correct? Mr.

Mackintosh : Well, that's right, and –but that's why there is a debate about whether even two years is appropriate and –or whether it's two years may be appropriate for some, but three and five is also appropriate. T hat's why the Auditor General raised the issue, I think, in that context. Mr. Goertzen: Changing topics, Mr. Chairperson, and I asked this question, I believe, at a PAC committee hearing in relation to an Auditor General's report.

I just want an update on if there's newer numbers on the number of individuals who are entering and exiting, if they're done at both at the same–if they're both done, the provincial adult and youth and women's correctional centres, who identify themselves as gang affiliated? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that the number of youth that have been identified as gang members is 90. And the adults is 467. Mr. Goertzen: And I thank the staff for the answer. Is–are they identified going into the system and exiting the system? Or are they only identified going into? Mr.

Mackintosh: I'm advised that the assessment is done on their –on coming in. But I'm also advised that if they become associated when they're in custody, then they will be managed accordingly. Mr. Goertzen: And what data or information can the minister provide on how likely somebody who is maybe not gang affiliated coming into the cor - rectional system becomes gang affiliated during their time within the correctional system? Mr. Mackintosh : For some time now, Manitoba Corrections has had in place a model to segregate different gangs as best they can.

They try to manage that on an ongoing basis, but they also have to deal

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2845 with the reality that allegiances vary almost daily, I'm told. In other words, there's no constant whatsoever. Allegiances can be very weak, and they may, in some cases, be very strong. But it's just a constant dynamic that they attempt to manage. * (15:00) Mr. Goertzen: Some time ago the Province passed legislation–I don't believe the current minister was minister at the time, although I stand to be corrected– regarding the listing of gangs so that they didn't have to be reproved that they were organized criminal entities in court again.

Can the minister update us how many gangs have been officially designated as such and can he name them? Mr. Mackintosh: I believe the intention was to list the Hells Angels and that is the gang that is listed. The intention was to list the Hells Angels and that has been done. It's the first time, I understand, in North America where this approach has been taken. Mr. Goertzen: Was that the only gang that was intended to be listed?

Because I remember from past Estimates and, again, in fairness, it wasn't this minister at the time, but I think that the intention what we heard fr om other ministers was there was intended to list other gangs because there are other known gangs in the province of Manitoba. This is the first time I'm hearing that it was only intended for the Hells Angels. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, well, the legislation en ables the listing of other criminal organizations, as well, but I think at the outset the indication was the Hells Angels was the initial focus of this.

That means that we, in fact, could list other criminal organizations in consultation with police, and that–those–that relationship is well sealed between the Manitoba Justice and law enforcement in this regard. And so if there are decisions that lead that way, we'll see more than Hells Angels listed. Mr.

Goertzen: I mean, I think at the time that it was promoted as sort of a–if I remember, and I don't have the, you know, information right in front of me, so I'm going a bit off memory which is always both tricky and dangerous–but it was promoted as more of a tool for prosecutions and to be able to make the prosecution of gangs easier and more streamlined, and I thought the intention was to list as many gangs as might have members who are being prosecuted in Manitoba. I mean, if it's –it was beneficial for the prosecution of Hells Angels, why wouldn't it be beneficial for the prosecution of the Indian Posse? Mr.

Mackintosh : I'm advised that there's a high evidentiary threshold that has to be met and that was met for the Hells Angels, but the department is attuned to whether other opportunities might exist for other criminal organizations to be listed. But it should be corrected that, first of all, this is not for a prosecution of criminal cases and we have pursued the federal government to determine if there's an interest to do something similar under the Criminal Code of Canada for prosecutors.

But this is in respect of the administration of provincial statutes, for example, whether it's fortified buildings or safer communities and neighbourhoods. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that clarification. I think, maybe, we had terminology mixed up there, but I appreciate what he's saying and I'm glad for the clarification. Shifting gears, and I'm sorry we'll be doing this today in terms of moving from topic to topic.

I want to talk a little bit about the community safety officer program, which the minister referenced in his opening statement yesterday, and I'll –and we have the right people at the right table, so that's good. Can he just give us an update in terms of where Thompson is at with the pilot project, whether that's, sort of, moved out of the pilot project phase. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes.

We have the launch of both the community safety officers and the First Nations Safety Officer Program which, of course, comple - ments the cadet approach in Winnipeg, so all part of a, I think a progressive move to recognizing that many of the issues that come to the attention of police and take their time is about antisocial behaviour and, as well, can deal –as well can lead to the deployment of persons that aren't necessarily police officers to deal with matters so that police ar e left to deal with the more serious matters in the community.

I'm always pleased to see, when driving through the city of Winnipeg, the deployment of cadets, for example, at intersections. That's one example. I think that there is also an expectation th at community safety officers will be more involved in proactive preventative work as well. So we'll continue to see that develop.

2846 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 It really began in June in full bore in Thompson. It's a two -year pilot. We've been keeping abreast of how that's being rece ived.

I'll be talking to the City of Thompson political representatives about this in the near future and, as well, our staff and our lead staff on this project have met in the last week or two with the Thompson project people, including the city representatives and the RCMP and, most notably, some of the CSOs themselves, and this has been very positively received, so I think we'll look to see, as we drill down, what kind of work they're doing and what difference it makes in terms of the demands on the RCMP.

But I'll just say that I think that this is the wave of the future, and I've had some discussions with other communities about CSOs and we'll see if we can start to move the dial in terms of moving beyond Thompson and, of course, the First Nations communities. So this is a good start. Mr. Goertzen: It's legislation that our party supported, as the minister, I'm sure, remembers. Just a point of clarification: Are CSOs peace officers? There's been some dispute about that. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes. Mr. Goertzen: For some reason there seems to be some confusion on that.

I don't propose to suggest who is the reason for that confusion, but I know that there have been communities and, quite frankly, the one that I live in, the city of Steinbach, and nearby the RM of Hanover, who dealt with, you know, this issue in terms of policing, and both fast -growing areas.

I think Hanover is the fastest growing RM, and the city of Steinbach is either the fastest growing city or close to it, in Manitoba, maybe even western C anada, and, you know, inquiries that they've made have come back with different infor - mation, both in terms of whether or not individuals are peace officers or if they're looking to move individuals from a bylaw enforcement position which both the RM and t he city have, into a community safety officer position.

Is there a reason for the confusion or is it that sometimes confusion is just confusion, but if they were to move to a CSO position from their current bylaw officers, they would be peace officers? * (15:10) Mr. Mackintosh : If they do become CSOs, they indeed will become peace officers, and there is the ability to enforce bylaws and there could be provincial statutes that can be enforced as well.

I'll just highlight for the member, though, that there are ongoing intensive discussions about further relief for police officers when it comes to other kinds of social –antisocial behaviour, whether it's intoxicated persons or those that are dealing with mental health challenges in their life and lookin g for greater options, a greater array, or a continuum, shall we say, of people that can help in those situations without taking police officers off the important duties that they have in dealing with threats to public safety. So that work is in progress.

And I hope that we can report publicly in due course, but we have a lot of stakeholders there and we want to make sure that we get that right, but if the police aren't doing a job any more, that someone else is trained and able to deal with whether it's someone passed out on the corner or someone that has to be taken to hospital under The Mental Health Act. Mr.

Goertzen: And I'll just touch on that briefly, then, because the minister raises a point that both he and I have heard, I'm sure, from those in law enforcement about, you know, when they come across somebody who they believe is dealing with issues of mental health and they bring them into a medical facility, they bring them in under The Mental Health Act, and they're not able to release them to somebody else, who, I believe, has to have a peace officer status. There has to be somebody who stays with them.

And so police have certainly indicated to me in –from different municipal forces – their concern about how much time this takes, not that they don' t think that that's important that somebody be with them, but maybe not necessarily somebody who is a uniformed officer who then isn't on the street. Just as a quick point, CSOs, obviously, could fulfill that responsibility because they're peace officers, is that correct? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, CSOs and cadets may have a role there, certainly, and they've been empowered with the legislative scheme to do exactly that.

But there are other responses, as well, that may be appropriate, and it might be that it's not all or nothing for different situations. It could be based on a risk assessment. It could be based on different tech- nology. Like, do people actually have to be transported as often as they are? Can we use tele- health to a greater extent? Are there other individuals that are skilled, for example, Main Street Project workers that have different skill sets may be appropriate to do this kind of work.

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2847 So that's the effort that's under way now. And I know it's a long- standing concern, particularly municipalities that are paying for RCMP officers when they have to transport someone and then wait at the hospital and then take them back home. And, in fact, I've heard of situations most recently from the city of Brandon where an officer was taken off the beat for, like, over a day or two because of the transport issues. So I think we have to step back and look at what we really need police officers for, and it really comes down to public safety.

And that's the test and it has to remain the test. And we have to, I think, realign our resources accordingly, and we can do that, but it has to be done right. And the right people have to be in the room, and we're making best efforts at that. Mr.

Goertzen: I mean, this is a specific concern that's been raised to me by councillors with the City of Steinbach, I know it's been raised by other municipal officials, but, you know, that ability to try to get RCMP officers away from doing that monitoring of an individual who is under a mental health order –what the minister' s talking about, I think, you know, speaks to promise of movement in this particular situation. Would it require legislative change, or is it something that can be done by regulation or by policy? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I think it's both.

Legislation currently requires peace officers to deal with intoxicated persons under the IPDA, I understand, and under The Mental Health Act. So that's the first step and then the second step is by way of policy, looking to see who, in fact, should be on the job and, you know, trained accordingly to do that. And there are other issues that have to be attended to that relate to that. But this is where the CSOs and cadets, I think, are the frontrunners of a new way of doing business, but I think we could go beyond that.

I might just add that the WPS really had rec - ognized this and this is where the discussions came from with Manitoba Justice, and led to the creation of the cadet program which we fully support, and just hope we can ge t everything –everybody staffed up there. Mr. Goertzen: Is there a time frame for some of these initiatives to come to fruition? Can the minister indicate that? I know we're on a tight legislative time frame with only another, sort of, three -week set of sitting weeks after this, and then the ones that we get in February for another three weeks. Mr.

Mackintosh : Well, the gentlemen are sitting here, that we've had the discussions with, and I can tell you that I'm very eager to move this quickly. And perhaps we could have discussions with the member about how we can move that ahead, but we still have work to do on that one. There are people that are in the room with us that are working on the options. Like I say, we can't just bring in a change without knowing what the support services are going to look like, then, down the road.

But I can assure the member –and I've had dis - cussions with the senior officers of the Winnipeg Police Service just two weeks ago about this –we're pulling out all the stops; we're try ing to move as quickly as we can. But it are–it is our intention to try to get amendments introduced into the House in this session, absolutely, but when we can do it, I'm not going to commit to yet but we're doing what we can. Mr. Goertzen: Well, this session ends on Thursday, so if he's hoping to do it this session, then I look forward to that rapid speed. I guess things can happen.

I see the former Attorney General –current House leader's ready to give leave, so I look forward to seeing the bill tomorr ow, I guess, and we'll have that discussion. The issue's important, though, and I know the minister misspoke in terms of one session and I understand that, but I wanted to leave it on the record about, you know, it's an important issue to many communities, not the least of which is mine, which, obviously I bring forward. And I'm glad that there's some feeling that need –things need to change, and the time frame will be the time frame, I suppose, Mr. Speaker, but I–or Mr.

Chairperson, but I want to leave it as an important issue.

Returning to the issue of CSOs, though, the Attorney General indicated that that is sort of the new wave of doing things, and I just want to know how fast that wave is moving, because, certainly, there's many communities who I know –and he was indicating he's spoken to some and then we might be speaking about the same ones, but have indicated that they would like the ability to apply for that program and have individuals at peace office –peace officer status to deal with some provincial legislation that the RCMP then wouldn't have to deal with as frequently.

Can he indicate at what point other communities might be able to access this program?

2848 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 Mr. Mackintosh : Yes, the next step is to put in place safety officers in 31 communities, actually, across Manitoba under the First Nations Safety Officer Program. That will start within months. Different communities are different timelines, but that is on a–it's full steam ahead, I'm assured. In terms of other communities across Manitoba, we've had some initial discussions and some interest expressed and–so that will be part of any budget discussions. Mr.

Goertzen: Yes, and just in terms of the budgetary process, then, I know that there was a financial contribution made to Thompson in terms of their pilot project. Is the Province indicating that they'll provide similar funding support for other municipalities as they go forward at the ratio that Thompson was funded? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, one reason that Thompson's a pilot was just to see how this w orks in terms of funding for one, and–so that's an open matter that's subject to further discussion. I don't think anyone is firmly entrenched in any particular funding model.

It may either differ by community or we may have a different formula that's province-wide. * (15:20) Mr. Goertzen: The–I understand this is sort of happening at a staged approach. I'm wondering why other communities might not be able to apply sooner. I mean, they'll be responsible for hiring their own CSOs, I'm assuming. They might be taking their existing bylaw enforcement officers and putting them into CSO positions and the additional training that may be required. Why do they have to–why couldn't they proceed quicker as opposed to having to wait for another stage to be completed? Mr.

Mackintosh : Well, the program was never designed just to work, like, all at once, all–you know, immediately. It is going to be done based on modelling this in Thompson, and in the meantime, start to develop discussions with different com - munities tha t might have an interest in this. I'll be speaking with AMM and certainly reminding municipalities that if they do have an interest in a community safety officer program, they should contact us and we can begin discussions. But this is going to be a stag ed matter.

It's also a budgetary matter and has to be done in a way that builds on the experiences as we learn from them. Mr. Goertzen: I think it will be important when the minister visits AMM –I'm assuming he means at the annual meetings later this month , or maybe he has a different meeting arranged with them –you know, that he's clear with those officials that CSOs are peace officers, because I think there is significant confusion there.

And, in terms of the timing, obviously, I might have some objecti ons to how slow the program will be rolling out, recognizing there are things that have to be tested and checked, but I think that there is a great desire in many communities to have a program like this. And I'll again reference my community, because I'm not telling any secrets out of school then, that both the –I think the City of Steinbach and the RM of Hanover would at least have interest in looking at the program, and I think the time is a concern, that it could possibly be that delayed.

But he hasn't–the minister hasn't given a specific time frame, but communities like the City of Steinbach, which is the third largest city, as the minister knows, and the RM of Hanover, which, I think, is the largest municipality in Manitoba, what kind of a time frame could those municipal bodies be looking at for a CSO program if they were interested and applied for it? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I will be meeting with the City of Steinbach in –I think it's the next few weeks that we have a meeting scheduled on this issue.

I think there might be a couple of other issues, but this is a key issue, and the issue of IPDA and mental health transfers is part of that. But it all really comes down to this idea of having more options for community safety approaches. So I can assure the member that we'll have a discussion with Steinbach and I'll hear first -hand what their vision might be, and perhaps we can find some way of proceeding together in a way that makes sense. Mr.

Goertzen: Well, and I'll leave on the record, putting on mor e my MLA for Steinbach hat than the critic role hat, that I think it's –would certainly advocate strongly that the minister listen clearly to their wishes and the changing nature of those communities. As communities grow, there's many great things that come from growth within regions, within cities, but there are things that aren't so great. Certainly, we've seen greater instances of methamphetamine in the community, there have been concerns about

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2849 fentanyl, and that's –I wouldn't want to call it a natural by-product of growth, but it's an unfortunate by-product of growth. And the ability for police to be able to concentrate on matters such as that in terms of rooting out those difficult things in the community that can be so destructive for kids and concent rating on those things as opposed to other issues which maybe CSOs might be better conditioned for, I think, is important. So I'm glad to hear that the minister is having those meetings.

I certainly would leave him with the feeling that, you know, I hope that he'll listen to those concerns strongly and act upon them in as timely a fashion as he possibly can. That's my MLA hat, but, of course, I know there are other communities who feel the same way and who also would be interested in a program such as this.

So–but on the issue of mental health, I want to ask a quick question which I suspect will spark a bit of a shuffle, but on the mental health court, just in terms of the time frames, if the minister can give a bit of a brief description of how one becomes eligible for entry into the Mental Health Court program. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I'm a strong supporter of the mental health court and, as well, the drug court, and I think that this is an approach that has to grow.

In terms of the specific question, those that are eligible will be those with axis 1 mental disorders, and includes schizophrenia, for example, bipolar, anxiety disorders and severe depression. It was not designed to include those with Alzheimer's or FASD or personality disorders. By the way, wi th FASD we have a very unique need -in-Manitoba approach for youth with FASD and, in fact, that was the initial discussions about the mental health court was in that context, and then the current member –minister of mines took this to the next level and, as a result, we have this court.

I also will add that it doesn't include those that are not criminally responsible or unfit to instruct counsel as defined under the Criminal Code. Mr. Goertzen: Can the minister indicate how many individuals are currently part of the mental health court program and how many might be qualified but haven't yet started the program? Mr. Mackintosh : There are–I'm advised there are currently 35 participants under the jurisdiction of the court. Mr. Goertzen: Is there a number of individuals who've been accepted, essentially, but haven't actually started the program, or do you start the day that you're accepted? Mr.

Mackintosh : I'm told there's no–there's no wait-list, if that's the word. Mr. Goertzen: Is there a wait time to sta rt the program? Mr. Mackintosh : I'm advised that –well, there's an assessment according to the criteria that we just listed, but we're not aware of any, like, delay issues or complaints about that. Mr. Goertzen: So an individual becomes assessed and then they become qualified, and do they then start the program immediately? Mr.

Mackintosh: Practically, what the mental health court does is it links someone who is under charge with a –essentially a PACT team, and that could consist of a psychiatrist, of cou rse, the team leader, and there will be a multidisciplinary team, usually four service co -ordinators and the administrator, of course, is all part of that. So it's that kind of intensive more wraparound support that is the hallmark of the Mental Health Court. * (15:30) Mr.

Goertzen: As a minister, can you just clarify for me, we did –we filed a freedom of information request–and I'll take responsibility for this one, not all the ones that were alleged yesterday, but on this particular one–about the delay between entering the mental health court and we were told that it was 42 days, that was the most recent data that was provided under the freedom of information request. What is that then if the minister indicates there is no– Mr. Chairperson: Honourable Minister. Mr.

Mackintosh : Well, I understand that, what is that, that's a month and a half or so, that would be the assessment period. Mr. Goertzen: And is that something that is considered reasonable or is there a goal to try to reduce the assessment period? Mr. Mackintosh : I'm advised by courts that that's been recognized as a reasonable time frame for the assessment to take place and the conclusions to be drawn and the person to then be referred into the initiative.

2850 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 Mr. Goertzen: Now there was an assessment done by, I believe, a couple of –I don't have the names in front of me so I'll apologize –professors from the University of Winnipeg, on the mental health court. I saw them do a presentation on it. They expressed concerns about that length of time, they thought that that was, I think they were supportive of the court, don't get me wrong, but I think that they thought that that was a potentially failing of –a potential failing that took too long to start the programming.

Is that – that's not an assessment of the department then? Mr. Mackintosh : Well, no, that's not what I'm hearing here, but I think that would be Dr. Weinrath and I'm–I look forward to actually meeting with him on a few issues. I know he's got a particular interest in the mental health court and I think he did work on the drug court as well. So I want to sit down with him and I'll explore that with him to determine if, you know, that's an issue, if, you know, clearly if that would contribute to a remand population that's one we would want to priorize.

But we'll canvass it further; I don't think we'll just leave it at that. Mr. Goertzen: And I'll leave it at that. It may have been, and I'm sorry I don't have the name of the professor in front of me, it was a while ago that I saw the presentation, it was interesting and informative, but the name simply escapes me. The–you mentioned remand, and so if we can talk a bit about remand. At the –in the provincial correctional centres I understand that the remand population, and I'm not sure if it's an average across each of the institutions or if it's adult males and, or youth, is at about 70 per cent.

Is that the most up- to- date data? Mr. Mackintosh : Yes, that's the approximate number. I think the last number was, you know, 69 per cent in September . But, yes, I think 70 per cent is what I speak of publically, and is unacceptable. Mr. Goertzen: Yes, I mean, and I agree with the minister, it's unacceptable. And I think it's been unacceptably high for a very long time.

I didn't go back to Hansard t o other discussions we've had at Estimates committee when the member was the minister previously and I was the critic at that time as well, I didn't want to go down that memory lane and he probably wouldn't want to join me on that walk. But, I mean, this has been a problem for a very long time and I remember different iterations of the discussion, one in fact where I believe it was this minister, but I, you know, it may have been maybe the member for Minto (Mr. Swan), or maybe even the member for Kildonan (Mr.

Chomiak) talking about how they believe the solution to the remand issue in Manitoba would be the elimination of two -for-one sentencing. And I know there's been some work on that under the former federal government now, and yet the problem not only is it not getting better it seems to be getting worse.

Is there a reason why the previous statement of the government about how the elimination of two-for-one sentencing would deal with this problem, and I think that the–all ministers have spent a lot of time in Ottawa lobbying on that issue, and for the record I agree with them on that issue, I didn't necessarily agree that it would deal with remand, but I agree with the changes on two-for-one sentencing. I think even the member for Kildonan may have been threatened to be in the Senate jail for that reason and I came to his defence at that time and I, you know, still would defend him on that.

But is there reason why that didn't seem to be the solution that they were looking for? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, as we look at the reasons for the remand population growth over the years, there are just so many factors and it's difficult to separate out. First of all, the two -for-one credit was, I think, a perverse incentive that had to be dealt with for ever y reason. And at the same time, there was a change in federal criminal justice policy that played some role, we all suspect.

But, again, it's difficult to identify the extent of the impact of every factor that has contributed to the remand population the way it is. What I can say is that we do know, however, while all the causes may be difficult to discern independently, we are confident that some of the solutions can be put to work and the remand population can be brought down.

First of all, we have qu ietly, over the summer, initiated a new approach called the independent case assessment process, or ICAP, and it's a brand new unit of seven prosecutors and two support staff that is looking at the in- custody population at the Remand Centre, or on remand, with a view to identifying as early as possible after charges are laid what disposition can be arrived at more swiftly. So far they've analyzed 1,500 cases and there's been a disposition arrived at for 500. So I think it's reasonable to assume that those 500 may well have

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2851 been in remand still if not for those efforts. But that's just the start, and it is brand new. I've asked ICAP, now, to focus on those on remand status that are there for several days. We have an indication that a very high percentage o f the remand population–that's 70 per cent –are comprised of people that are there for just a day or two, quite frankly. And I'm concerned that there may have developed a process that has to be rethought. We also recognize that sometimes people have to be i n there for a few days.

But we think that that is, perhaps, low -hanging fruit, and we're going to get into that now. It isn't acceptable that, if it's just a processing issue that people are at the Remand Centre in large volumes of turnover because that' s the way we've done it, and that's not good enough. So we're going to look to see, now, as the next stage, how the –those that are in there for a week or two, or even if just a few days, can be dealt with differently.

At the same time, ICAP is continuing its efforts, and–but there are other approaches, too, that have to be taken, and this includes making sure that the conditions–because many of them are in there on breaches–are individually tailored to the risk of the offender. The days of boiler plate conditions have to be ended, and some good work has already been started on that one with the judiciary. I've been assured of that. And I've asked the department to step up its efforts to make sure that individual assessment takes place.

We just can't be–we have to be governed by safety and risk management, and we can't be putting people into the Remand Centre because they had a beer, for example, and it was unrelated to the nature of the offence that was alleged, or, you know, that are –they missed an appoint ment and it's not a part of a long–you know, for example, if there's a series of missed appointments there has to be a consequence, and I accept that, but if there's a missed appointment and that's the only reason, that has to be looked at. It may be app ropriate in some circumstances.

It may be a very high -risk individual and every breach that is tailored to risk should be acted on, but I think we have to have that individual assessment. But there are many other changes that we have to pursue and, in fact, getting back to the Mental Health Court, we also have to make sure that we are getting to the root of the issues that are ending up in the justice system.

And that's why mental health, addictions and job skills have to be more strongly promoted, and that 's what we're doing both in custody and outside of custody. * (15:40) The bail supervision program is another way that we have looked to better manage the remand population, and we've had meetings with both John Howard and the E Fry Society to make sure that we can move to full capacity of those programs. And Crown prosecutors and the John Howard, for example, have met to make sure that Crown prosecutors can indeed have full assurance and confidence in the supervisory capacity of John Howard.

And, by the way, I –it's my sense that, indeed, they're very strict with the oversight of the conditions that people are out on bail for. So I think on a number of fronts, we're moving ahead for a different approach because the incar - ceration rate, the overcrowdin g that results from that one being driven by the remand population, especially for those that–serving very, very few days, has got to be curtailed, but it has to be done in a way where public safety is still the test. We are moving in the right way and w e have to continue that, while at the same time addressing this issue of the remand population.

Mr. Goertzen: The minister says that it's moving in the right way, and yet I suppose if I look back at his speech from when he was the critic, actually, in the '90s when remand was, I think, significantly lower, he would have been much more critical about. Even when he became the minister in 1999, if I'd have taken one of his speeches from then about remand, could have pretty much taken maybe different program names but plugged in the same speech. I don't think much has changed in 15 years to either his statements on this issue.

The programs have changed, the initiatives have changed but the problem has actually worsened. So I'm not really sure where, when he s ays he's moving ahead on this–if this is moving ahead, then I suspect next year or if he's fortunate enough to still be in government, it'll be 80 per cent. And we'll just keep moving ahead 'til we get closer to the entire population being on remand. So I don't know that many people will have much comfort in those comments since those are the same comments that he made and has been making for 14 years during the time that's he's been the Attorney General.

But, I guess, in his defense, the

2852 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 other Attorney G enerals in there have been saying the same things, too, so it's just the same speech, I suppose, Mr. Speaker, but I don't expect much is going to change. The issue of the percentage of Aboriginal people who are incarcerated, I believe in the 1990s, it was about 46 per cent. Today, if I remember correctly, it was slightly over 70 per cent who identified as Aboriginal who were incarcerated. Can he give an explanation in terms of why there's a greater percentage of Aboriginals incarcerated now than there were when he became minister in 1999? Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, just to answer the political statements of the member, first of all, what I was talking about was the move to address crime in Manitoba. We talked the other day about the reduction in crime severity . It's an index now that's been developed and used nationally. The –so now we have both crime rates and we have the crime severity. I don't take any comfort from the positive movement except to remind us that we can make a difference when we bear down and c ontinue to innovate.

The 41 per cent reduction over the last decade in crime severity is very notable, and that's what I was referring to, is we have to always have public safety as the test for our changes and how we're dealing with the remand population. Manitoba has made some excellent movement, and I think the auto theft strategy is one that was one of the most successful crime prevention and suppression initiatives in North American history, and I'm hearing that from others. That's not what we call it.

But people have given awards to that program and recognized it internationally as being a model for how an approach can be taken to what was an epidemic and unhinging almost every family in this province and move the dial on that one very significantly. In fact, in Winnipeg, I believe it was an 83 per cent reduction in auto theft as a result. So that's what I was talking about in terms of moving in the right direction. We have to continue that.

There are, obviously, some very serious challenges in term s of the need to bring down the violent crime rate in this province and that's why we always have to look to see what changes we can bring in. Today in the Legislature, the member was wondering why we were going to look at protection orders because we had looked at them, what, 10 years ago. Well, yes, you have to continually look at that. You have to always strengthen your approaches and learn from shortcomings and learn from insights of people, so that's what we're going to do there.

In terms of Aboriginal offenders, there's been some analysis that had indicated –I think this is a CCJS analysis –that in 2013- 14, they represented 64 per cent of admissions to correctional services in Manitoba, and that was the second highest after Saskatchewan. But my understanding is that would also include–[interjection] I think–the

interpretation of that is that that would be provincial correctional services. In Saskatchewan it looks like 74 per cent. Mr. Goertzen: In terms of the Manitoba's scenario, is that an in crease since the minister was First Minister in 1999? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I'd have to–I don't have those numbers here. But it does speak to the need to continue to work to strengthen Aboriginal communities, Aboriginal families and, also, the need to make sure that, for some offences appropriate resources and responses are put in place.

And I think to some good extent, restorative justice approaches have been recognized, for example, through Onashowewin here in the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Goertzen: I think the Auditor General, in her report in March of 2014 last year, indicated that 46 per cent of incarcerated adult offenders identify as Aboriginal in the mid -1990s. Why would there be such an increase under his government? Mr.

Mackintosh : Yes, well, I'll le ave that to sociologists and criminologists, but whether that –it could be many factors, including self -identification, and it could be population trends, as well, there, but that's just mere speculation. Mr. Goertzen: I just wanted to ask because it was, I think, in the 1990s when he was critic, he indicated that that was significantly too high, so I guess the views have changed on that since then. I'll leave it to my friend from River Heights who has some questions. Mr. Chairperson: Honourable Minister, any comment? Mr. Mackintosh: What's that? Mr. Chairperson: Sorry.

Was there any comment on it? No, okay. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Now, it's my understanding that there –with the Drug Treatment Court that there was a perio d from approximately

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2853 April 2014 through August 2015, of about 15, 16 months where there was no new people allowed into the program because it was –I think there was uncertainties about whether it was going to be funded, and I was just–have asked the minister what– because I've heard various explanations, what was the reason for the program not being able to accommodate new people for about 15 or 16 months? * (15:50) Mr. Mackintosh : The intakes began again in September.

I understand that there was a suspension of intakes while the management of the Drug Treatment Court was realigned in step with what the federal government had directed the Province to do. The federal government had made a decision that it should not be a project of the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba but rather of courts in Manitoba Justice.

So that caused quite a disruption, but it's full steam ahead now, and I'm sure the honourable member will join with me asking for the federal government to be very proactive in working with the Provinc e so that we can expand the Drug Treatment Court's work in this province. Mr. Gerrard: I thank the minister. Approximately how many people could've been taken in during that 15-, 16-month period if the court had been operating on a continuous basis? Mr. Mackintosh: There could be maybe 20 people that may have benefited during that period of time.

But I should remind the member that the work of the court continued nonetheless. Those who were already admitted were continuing on with their programming. It wasn't a cessation of the court itself. Mr. Gerrard: The minister is talking about the need for an expansion of the court. What would be the minister's estimate of the increased capacity that really is needed for optimum situation of Manitobans? Mr. Mackintosh: The–both the Mental Health Court and Drug Treatment Court are in Winnipeg. Drug Treatment Court is actually called the Winnipeg Drug Treatment Court and it was a unique model.

It was built from the ground up that was unique to Manitoba's challenges. But I think it's morphed over time. It was originally intended to deal with, I think, drug use and sexual exploitation, and that was some initial thinking, but it has changed over the time. But, if there was to be expansion, which I would like to see and have discussions with the federal government about, it would be into the other cities of Manitoba where the Addictions Foundation, for example, has a presence. That would be, I think, the low-hanging fruit for expansion. Mr.

Gerrard: From the number s that the minister's provided, it would appear that there's capacity at the moment for approximately, say, 20 people a year to take the programming; you know, the minister may be able to correct or update that. Is the need 40 or 80 or 160? What, sort of, would be a ballpark figure of what the need would be, provided that you–one had the capacity in, you know, other centres in Manitoba, like Brandon and Thompson and The Pas? Mr.

Mackintosh : Yes, I think expansion in Winnipeg would be laudable, but I think that as a provincial government, it's important to provide services as best we can across the province. So that's why I think the next step would be, both with regard to the Mental Health Court and the Drug Treatment Court, to have expansion into other par ts of the province so it's not just a Winnipeg service. Mr.

Gerrard: And–but just to get some idea of the size of the expansion that would be needed, if, for instance, you had a court in Brandon and Thompson and The Pas, what would be the total intake capacity that would be appropriate to the need? Mr. Mackintosh: That would depend in large part on the service providers. But, I mean, that's a question that I hope that we can attend to because, so far, there has been no discussion whatsoever of expansion of this. It's just a matter of keeping going what we have and it hasn't been easy in the last little while.

But if there's a different approach at Ottawa, and I will certainly encourage it, I'll ask the member to maybe call in his favours, but perhaps we ca n move on that, and that would be laudable. Mr. Gerrard: So I would take it from, you know, setting up programs in other sites, that we would probably be talking about moving from 20 a year up to 60 or 80 a year, something like that? Mr. Mackintosh : Yes. I'm advised that actually there's not a lot of people that have been, you know, banging at the door here in Winnipeg to get into the program.

It's –there's high demands on those that come in, but the numbers are–I don't want to get into the numbers right now. I just think that if there's a willingness, then we can look to the numbers. Mr. Goertzen: I think we're ready to move to the resolutions by force of time. As I mentioned the session will end on Thursday, and I believe that there

2854 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 3, 2015 are a few more departments that are looking for time, so that is what it is. Mr. Chairperson: All right. Seeing no further questions, we will proceed to consideration of the resolutions. Thanks to the staff and the critic and the minister and everyone for their deliberations on this. So first one. Resolution 4.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $39,420,000 for Justice, Criminal Law, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 4.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $44,939,000 for Justice, Civil Law, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 4.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum n ot exceeding $381,343,000 for Justice, Community Safety, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 4.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $60,048,000 for Justice, Courts, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 4.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,050,000 for Justice, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 4.7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,694,000 for Justice, Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of this department is item 4.1(

a) the minister's salary contained in resolution 4.1. Floor is open for questions, if any. Mr. Goertzen: I don't believe, and I'll stand to be corrected again, that I've ev er challenged the Minister of Justice's salary, and I won't change that habit today. Mr. Chairperson: All right. We will then proceed to consideration of resolution 4.1. Resolution 4.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,597,000 for Justice, Administration, Finance and Justice Innovation, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2016. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Justice. The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is for the Department of Mineral Resources. Shall we have a brief recess to allow the appropriate staff and people arrive? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Shall we have a brief recess? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. We are in recess. The committee recessed at 3:59 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 4:03 p.m. Mr. Clarence Pettersen , Acting Chairperson , in the Chair MINERAL RESOURCES The Acting Chairperson (Clarence Pettersen ): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Mineral Resources. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Mineral Resources): Yes, Mr. Chairperson. The Acting Chairperson (Clarence Pettersen): Go ahead. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, normally I don't do an opening statement with respect to Supplementary Estimates, but I'm making an opening statement this year because I want to commend all of the work of the department officials,

November 3, 2015 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2855 and I don't get enough opportunity often to thank them for their dedication and work. So that's the reason I'm doing an opening statement for this year. For the past year and a half the department has had a strong focus on sustainable development of our mineral and petroleum resources. The 2014 value of mining and petroleum totalled $3 billion, with metallic minerals accounting of $1.2 billion, industrial minerals accounting for $214 million, and petroleum, $1.6 billion. The past year has not been an easy one for the mining and mineral sector.

Continued weakness and commodity prices and instability in global econ - omies and financial markets has created uncertai nty in mineral investments, forcing many mining com - panies to revise their exploration programs. Accordingly, the actual exploration spending in 2014 was down 56 per cent from the previous year to 27.1 million. The forecast for 2015 is 36.2 million, an increase of 28 per cent, 2014.

While there's been an overall decline in expenditures experienced across Canadian provinces and territories in recent years, the 2015 forecast increase for Manitoba is occurring while Canadian expenditures are stagnant. Despi te these challenges in Manitoba, we turned to the top 10 place in the world for mineral investments according to the 2014 institute survey of mining companies. The survey noted Manitoba's excellence in policy per - ception, mineral potential and geological database.

In response to the decreased investment due to challenging economic times and to help sustain mineral exploration in the province we've renewed our mineral incentive programs. Funding for the Mineral Exploration Assistance Program was doubled t o $3 million for 2014 and 2015- 16, with assistance of 50 per cent of approved eligible expenses available for companies. Funding for the Manitoba Prospectors Assistance Program was also increased to $125,000. The Manitoba mining explor - ation tax credit was renewed and we introduced double assessment credits for work complete in 2014 and 2015.

Altogether, Manitoba's package of exploration incentives is the best in Canada. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair While new exploration is down and Manitoba's experienced an unprecedented period of mine development with two mines in production and several gold mines potentially set to reopen in the next 12 to 36 months. Hud Bay's $440-million Lalor mine reached full production in the second quarter of 2014, at 2,700 tons of ore per day. Reed Lake, a HudBay-VMS joint venture is now in full production of approximately 1,300 tons of ore per day. HudBay recently purchased

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-4-76b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 4th hansardpdf 76b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	aabc8f2f46d70f05052c8c0a7d1d9ea52956769a

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