Manitoba Hansard — 3 March 1977 (Sitting 11A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-11a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

.. .. ,. t TIME: 2:30 p.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Thursday, March 3, 1977 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have some 12 students from Glen boro High and some exchange students from the United States, from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Recei ving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; INTRODUCT ION OF BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HONOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY, on behalf of the Honourable Attorney-General, introduced Bill No. 16,

an Act to amend The Garage Keepers Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY introduced Bill No. 17, The Freedom of Information Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Hei ghts. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C.: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance. In November of last year the Premier, with reference to the Federal Budget, issued a press statement in which he recommended a federal tax cut to create jobs. I wonder if the Minister of Finance is in a position to indicate whether the province intends to cut taxes? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HONOURABLE SAUL A. MILLER {Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, the member wi 11 have to wait for an answer until Budget night. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder if the Minister of Finance is in a position to indicate whether the province is prepared to put its money where its mouth is? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Again, I have to remind honourable members that the purpose of the question is to obtain information, not to supply it to the House.

Questions oral or written must not be ironical, rhetorical, offe nsive or contain innuendo satire or ridicule and the honourable member has that knowledge and has had it before him for some time. The Honourable Member for River Heig hts. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Finance, relates to the Mineral Acreage Tax. I wonder if he can indicate to the House and confirm the fact that a majority of people owing the tax have in fact not paid? MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm that statement nor deny it either. I'll take that question as notice. · MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Corrections. In view of the statement that he was reported to have made yesterday concern ing a position on rent control, can he now report to the House if the Cabinet has rescinded or changed its decision to abolish the Rent Control Program as of October this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Corrections. HONOURABLE J. R. BOYCE {Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, the position of Cabinet will be made known by the appropriate Minister.

In response to the question I res ponded as to my opinion, we should not wind down rent control any faster than we wind up the construction industry to provide adequate houses for the people, especial ly in my constituency .. : MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister then indicate that he has requested that the government change its position on the rent control program and that it will not be abolished on October 14 th. MR. PAULLEY: On a point of order, I think the question is improper, anticipatory and it's a personal observation of the Minister of Corrections. MR.

AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. To rephrase the question under the Minister of Corrections, can he indicate whether he is prepared to resign from Cabinet if the Rent Control Program is not abolished. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BIL TON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Corrections and Rehabilitation. Does the Minister have any information of the reported harshness of Manitoba teenagers at the recently closed Saskatchewan Wilder ness Camp? MR. BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, that particular facility is has been used by the Department of Health 291

Thursday,March 3, 1977 and Social Development but the people who have been placed there under the direction of the Director of Child Welfare are not under my direct ministry. I have called for a report for anybody who may be involved with my ministry. MR. BIL TON: I wonder if I may direct a question to the Minister of Health, Sir, on this subject. How many teenagers from this province were enrolled in that camp and where are they now? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HONOURABLE LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think my honourable friend can find the story of the position of the department in the same place where he got this story. I can't give him the details as to how many; I can tell him though that we' re very concerned and we're trying to get some of these children back here into Manitoba and we'll treat this during our Estimates which I believe will be following the Department of Education. MR. BIL TON: Another question to the Minister of Corrections and Rehabilitation.

Has the Minister had discussions with the federal Solicitor-General in regard to the agreement pertaining to the exchange of prisoners in the United States of America? MR. BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, while treaties with other countries falls under the jurisdiction of the federal government, these accords were worked out through the co-operation of the provinc ial jurisdictions. MR. BIL TON: A suppleme ntary, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for that reply. Can he give us any idea as to how many Manitobans this will affect? MR. BOYCE: I'll take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Deputy Premier of the Province. I would like to ask the Deputy Premier if the government is considering an early expedition of some of the changes recommended by the Law Reform Commission which have received approval of the Attorney-General? MR. PAULLEY: I think my proper answer to that my honourable friend will have to await the introduction of any changes resulting from the report of the Law Reform Commission. MR.

GRAHAM: I neg lected to inform you, this is the Law Reform Commission Report on election reform is the one that I'm dealing with specifical ly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development concerning the Wilderness Camp in Saskatchewan and the delinquent teenagers from Manitoba. Can the Minister indicate to the House if these boys are back in Manitoba now and where are they placed? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sorry I can't give the answer; this is something that I have asked the Deputy Minister to look into. We're very concerned, as concerned as the Province of Saskatchewan. I can't tell him where these children are at this time but I know we're trying to get them back as soon as possible. MR. PATRICK: A suppleme ntary, Mr. Speaker. During the last session of the House, we asked the Minister and he indicated to the House that he would have a full report. Has he got a report as a result of the investigation on the Wilderness Camp in Saskatchewan?

At the last session, the Minister indicated to the House when we asked him the question that he would have a full report and investigation to this case and has he g9t a report? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I don't recall exactly what was stated last year on that; I can tell you that this will be debated very thoroughly during the Estimates .. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WIL SON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the Minister of Urban Affairs, is the Minister prepared to explain to the House why he will not give the City of Winnipeg the right to control massage parlours, as reported in the newspaper? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I believe the City has the necessary authorities to do what it has to do and 1 can't see specific legis lation dealing with specific kind of businesses like massage parlours being introduced in this Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable, the Minister of Agriculture, and ask him whether or not he can indicate to the House as to when we can expec t the introduction of the bill having to do with land ownership? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Soon, Mr. Speaker. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I suppose that answer could, under your admonition about . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. ENNS: My question to the same Minister.

In light of the great deal of interest by many people currently transacting land deals in the province, could the Minister indicate a refinement of that answer? • 292

.. • • Thursday ,March 3, 1977 MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the Member for Lakeside knows the procedures of the Assembly and obviously I'm not in a position to give him any details until the bill is introduced. MR. ENNS: A final supplementary answer. Then is it the govern ment's intention to carry out their previous behaviour introducing this kind of major legislation in the closing and in the final days of the session? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, to facilitate my honourable friend, the Member for Lakeside, I would indicate to him that we will attempt to have that bill introduced very very soon so that we will have ample opportunity to discuss it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable, the Minister of Labour. I would like to ask him when he will be issuing instructions to commence investigation into the matter of the MTS employee suspension that is still under consideration? MR. PAULLEY: I believe I reported to the House yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, that I had appointed an investigator, that I had received a reply from the investigator, and I thought that that was accepted by the House. I don't know what my honourable friend has in mind. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister confirm to the House that that investigator has not been instructed to proceed with an investigation? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, it is one of the responsibilities of the Minister of Labour to appoint investigators. I indicated to the House that one was appoi nted. I still don't know what my honourable friend is fishing for. MR.

SHERMAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister assure the House that there will be no time lag between the appointment of an investigator to investigate, and the actual activity of investigating? MR. PAULLEY: Had my honourable friend had his ears open yesterday, Mr. Speaker, he would have noted that I said that I had received the report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Minister of Health, and would ask him if he could confirm that he has received complaints from the Manitoba Sports Federation about the poor services they are Administrative Centre for Sports. receiving from the MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, no, and this Administration Centre does not deliver any service to the Sports Federation, so it would have nothing to do with the Sports Federation and I think we answered that question a few days ago. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the Member for River Heig hts asked a question about, I think it was on page 22 of the Auditor's Report, dealing with an amount of $3,028,306, and he asked , "Where is the money paid out? Was it paid out in last year's Estimates, is it estimated for this year?" I would indicate to him that these are advances partially paid out through capitals and part through current. it's an amount that is indicated as outstanding advance.

The final amount is not known because we are still negotiating with CMHC and the federal Department of Public Works to determine what recapture and recovery we could achieve from them. We should know that within the next few months, in which case the amount shown here would be reduced accordingly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heig hts. MR. SPIVAK: 1 thank the minister for his answer. I wonder if he is in a position to indicate now exactly how much the cost has been of the operation of t he Churchill Prefab Housing Plant; that is the cost to the people of Manitoba. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Speaker, obviously I couldn't have that information available with me. l was simply responding to a question, a specific question, and expla ining why an amount is shown here and why it is still shown as an advance when in fact the final amount may be different. And until we know what the Federal Government will contribute, either through CMHC or the Department of Public Works there would be no advantage in writing off an amount or charging off an amount when we know there will be some recovery. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. The latest consumer price index indicates that Winnip eg has led in the increased cost of housing over the last year, of all cities in Canada. I wonder if he can indicate why this has come about? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. it's asking for an opinion. Could the honourable member be more specific? MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'll phrase it another way. Has his department undertaken any studies to try and determine why the cost of housing has increased higher in Winnipeg than in any other city in Canada? MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, first of ali i am not sure that I am prepared to accept the observation of my honourable friend. But there is no doubt that the cost of housing has increased rapidly throughout Canada and there are many factors involved , as my honourable friend knows, one in 293

Thursday ,March 3, 1977 particular that we are concerned with is the escalating cost of serviced land in the City of Winnipeg in particular, and this is why, Mr. Speaker, in The Throne Speech we indicated a massive land development program whereby serviced lots would be made available to consumers in Manitoba near cost without any rip-off being involved. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I again ask the Minister, has his department undertaken any study or review that wou Id indicate why the cost of housing has increased in Winnipeg higher than any other city in Canada? MR.

EVANS: I have indicated that I am not prepared to accept the honourable member's observation. We do engage in studies from time to time, of course. You can analyse the consumer price index as we can. lt does break down into residential components and you can look at the subcomponents and see for yourself what may be involved. lt may be additional prices for materials, or what have you. But the fact is that there are obviously people that are looking at changing prices, and so on. But again I say, Mr. Speaker, I don't accept the allegations. honourable member's MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister is in a position to indicate whether the manner and application of rent controls in Manitoba has been a factor in the escalation of the price? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. This is again asking for an opinion. The Honou rable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture, and I would like to ask him if he can confirm or otherwise, as to whether Mr. Rudy Usick has been reappointed to the Manitoba Marketing Board? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I did answer a similar question some time ago.

No, the former member has resigned from the board and remains that way, and a new member has been appoi nted yesterday. MR. EI NARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct a second question to the Min ister. Do I understand from the Minister, then, that Mr. Usick will not be reappointed to the marketing board? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I don't know. I gather from him, at least in his public statement, that he would prefer not to be reappointed. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the same Minister. Can we anticipate then in the possibility of a successful vote on the beef question that the same Mr.

Rudy Usick would be appointed to the beef marketing board? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Lakeside should know that there is to be no appointed members to that Board. - {I nterjection) - Well, the Member for Lakeside suggests that is not the way this government operates. Perhaps he's reflecting on his own performance when he was Minister, Mr. Speaker, because it is true that on previous occasions during their term of office, they had always appointed a provisional board.

In this particular referendum, the board will be elected from Day One. MR. WILSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Acting Minister of Tourism. I wonder if the member was aware of the opening tomorrow of the Gull Harbour complex and are the members of the House invited, who is invited, it seems to be a well-kept secret? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon-West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Finance. lt relates to the reports of the sighting of unidentified flying objects in the Sundown area of Manitoba.

My question, Sir, is: Has the Minister taken the necessary steps to ensure that there will be no loss of revenue to the provincial treasury by the non-payment of sales tax on these aircraft using our air space? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. I should again like to remind the members the purpose of a question is to obtain information. Order please. If you people wish to spend your time wasting your question hour, that's fine with me but until I get order, we don't proceed .

And I want to remind the honourable members that a question, oral or written, must not be ironical, rhetorical, offensive, contain innuendo, satire or ridicule and if the members wish to have that they are just not going to get an answer and if the Honourable Member for Lakeside doesn't sit down, I will tell him to leave the Chamber. He should have the courtesy to realize thatam ember who has the floor is entitled to speak; at the present time, I have the floor. The Honourable Member for Brandon-West have another question? The Honourable Member for Lakeside state his point of order. Order please. MR.

ENNS: In that presentation of the forbidden questions, Sir, I didn't note the word 'comical,' Sir. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member wishes to debate that issue, he should take it up with the Rules Committee. In the future, if he makes any more reflections on the Chair, I shall ask him to leave. The Honourable Member for Brandon-West. MR. McGILL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did have a suppleme ntary question. I wish to ask the Minister of Finance if in view of the fact that orange color had been sig hted in this area, could he assure us that this was not the result of the NDP flying trial balloons? .. • 294

.. Thursday,March 3, 1977 MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I'll try to answer both questions. The first one, before the supplementary, if the member would identify the jurisdiction from whence these flying objects came, I'll send them a bill. And maybe we can collect. On the second, I cannot say for sure what the orange-colored flying objects might be but I think I can say with some assurance that they are no way connected with the New Democratic Party. MR. SPIVAK: I am directing my question to the Minister of Finance.

Some time ago, the First Minister announced that travel by government officials would be restricted to absolute essential matters. I wonder if he can indicate what steps the Department of Finance has undertaken to ensure that this policy was carried out. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, these are administrative matters. Although this memo was sent out from the Department of Finance, it is the responsibil ity of each ministry and their administration to ride herd on this and I think they have done so successfully. MR. SPIVAK: I then want to understand what the Minister is saying.

Is the Minister saying that the policy was simply announced and a memo was sent or were there parameters set by the govern ment to ensure that this policy would be followed? MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, basically, the suggestion was that common sense be used rather than setting out firm and defin ite parameters or references because, in the final analysis, you can't beat common sense. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Corrections.

In his announcement of the new juvenile crisis centre, can he indicate to the House what the costs of this new centre will be and how many new employees the department will be adding to service it? MR. BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, I did not announce a new crisis centre. What I said was that we are attempting to extend probation services in the core area on a twenty-four hour basis. MR. AXWORTHY: A supple mentary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Honourable Minister indicate whether this extension of services on a twenty-four hour basis which is sixteen hours more than the present service offers it, will have the addition of new workers or new costs to the department and can he indicate how much that will be? MR. BOYCE: Well, of course, Mr. Speaker, I hope that the House will vote me the monies necessary for me to do it; if they don't, then I won't be able to do it. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister indicate whether as part of this program, his department will be providing the grants to the several private agencies presently offering a crisis service for juveniles in the inner city particularly Rossbrook House which has not received a grant yet for this year for the same kind of service. MR. BOYCE: Most definitely, Mr. Speaker.

In fact this particular expansion of services in co operation with the agencies in the private sector, we're finally getting to work together toward a common goal but our ministry's contribution to such services including Sister MacNamara who is doing a terrific job at Rossbrook House. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister then indicate that he has in fact been in direct consulation to work out this program with Rossbrook House and other agencies in that area in setting up this service? MR. BOYCE: Well, I don't want to be out of order, Mr. Speaker.

No, I' m not in direct negotiations with anyone, you know, I don't operate the bureaucracy. I think a politician's job is to muster the resources that competent people can do their work. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I pose another question to the Minister of Agriculture which is related to questions posed earlier. Could the Minister indicate who the person is who has taken the place of Mr. Rudy Usic k on the Marketing Board? Mr. Usknw: Mr. Speaker, the Orders in Council are public information readily available to my honourable frie nd. Mr. Spivak: My question is to the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker.

I believe yesterday gasoline prices went up in Manitoba and in Cacada. I wonder if he can indicate whether his depattment has undertaken any study to indicate the proportionate amount of the increase over October 19 73 that the consumer is now paying, that is, the proportionate amount of the increased price that now goes to governments, either pro vincial or federal in this country. Mr. Miller: Mr. Speaker, I don't have that information readily available.l'll take that question as notice. Mr.

Spivak: 1 wonder then if the Minister of Finance would be in a position as well to dete rmine whether he can confirm that over 80 percent of ... Mr. Speaker: Order please. The honourable member is offering an opinion which is not according to our rules. Mr. Spivak: No, I' m asking for confirmation of this, Mr. Speaker. I'm asking for confirmation of the fact that 80 percent of the increased price paid by the consumer is really paid by way of taxation to government. 295

Thursday,March 3, 1977 Mr. Miller: Mr. Speaker, that figure of 80 percent, I don't know whether it's 80 percent too high or 80 percent too low. If the member is suggesting that in fact, since 19 73 the federal government as a matter of policy has taxed away or taken away much of the increase in the price of oil and products, that is probably so. l think it was a matter of policy on the part of the federal government but insofar as the province is concerned , that is somewhat different and that's the information I will try to get for him. MR. SHERMAN: MR.

Speaker, I would like to direct a fourth supplementary to the Minister of Labour. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Fourth supplementaries are out of order. The honourable member knows that. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, having permitted a time lapse to occur in the tradition of the Minister himself with respect to some of these questions, I then will put it as a new question entirely, related to a new subject - the suspension of MTS employees for activities related to certification proceed ings.

Can the Minister confirm that an investigator appointed by his de partment earlier this week to investigate one of the suspensions still unresolved, was subsequently ordered within the past twenty-four hours by his office not to proceed with that investigation .. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: One of these days, Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend who is so knowledgeable of the operation of the Department of Labour will realize that I, as Minister of the Department, is responsible for appointment and revoking of appoi ntments of investigators, not the Department itself or any member other than myself. · MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, can I ask a supplementary question? Whether the Minister's office notwithstanding the dictates that he's outlined to this House, intervened in what was to have been an investigation that was to be carried out with respect to one of those suspensions. MR.

PAULLEY: lt's pretty hard to penetrate sometimes, Mr. Speaker, the minds of some of the honourable members of this House. The Honourable Member for Lakeside says to me, "keep trying." I have been trying ever since my honourable friend entered the House some years ago without success. I indicate that I have and accept the responsibil ity for the conduct of the Department. I indicated to the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, gentlemen, just yesterday -(I nterjection)- Oh, I' m not saying that my honourable friend isn't. Let him use his judgment as to whether the cap fits or not. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

PAULLEY: But the point is, Mr. Speaker, I received a report which was satisfactory to me and it appears that the matter has been resolved satisfactory to those involved. • • 296

• Thursday,March 3, 1977 ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Gladstone, MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Honourable Minister of Health wish to accept the Order for Return? Order please. Is the Honourable Minister prepared to accept, then we won't have it read in we'll just have it written into Hansard. Will the honourable member sit down while I'm taking the floor. Again I request, is there agreement that this Order be accepted, then we won't have to go through the total procedure?

The Hono urable Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, that was my intent to expedite the work of this House. I was going to ask for clarifications. I have no trouble in accepting it except No. (1), if my honourable friend means by this the total staff of every day care, this is something that I can't give him or something he can get as well as I. If he's talking about staff in the department, I' m certainly ready to accept this. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, as Acting House Leader on this side I recog nize a little bit of difficulty that we're getting into in the manner and way in which we're handling the Returns. I appreciate that whenever possible expeditious use of our time is of all our concerns. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member get to the point. MR. ENNS: But on the other hand we can't have half acceptance or explanations by the Ministers on these Orders for Returns and then maintain a clear record of how these Orders for Returns are presented to the House.

I quite frankly, Sir, sugge st that the Returns be allowed to be read as stated, the Ministers then making their comments either in acceptance or asking for qualifications or rejections. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Labour as House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, as House Leader may I remind my honourable friend the Member for Lakeside and appreciate the fact that I know he is the Acting House Leader of the Conservative Party, that on many occasions on Orders for Return and indeed motions of other natures questions have been asked for the purpose of clarification as to the intent of the motion, and that is why the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development asked the question: "Is the honourable member who is seeking the information asking in respect of all Day Care Centres or just those concerned within the department?" I would respectfully suggest to you, Mr.

Speaker, that this is legitimate and not an attempt to violate any of the proceed ings of the House or to differ from what has been done in the past. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Well, Mr . Speaker, the intent really was two-fold. One was how many people were working within the Department on Day Care Centres and the other of course was how many people were working in the various Day Care Centres. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, any information that I can give him that is related to the Department, I'll accept.

Now I think . he's out of order if he's asking me to find out outside, and I haven't any more facilities than my honourable friend for that, and if he accepts the answerof (2) , (3) and (4), fine; if not I consider the No. (1) out of order and I haven't the facilities or that information available. MR. SPEAKER: I shall have to rule in this instance that that information which pertains to provincial administration and operation may be requested. Other information that is of a private nature the honourable member will have to find for himself. If that's acceptable the Order will be so 297

Thursday,March 3, 1977 issued. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. aROWN: That is acceptable, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Now, there are three other Orders. Is the Honourable Minister prepared to accept all of them with that caveat? MR. DESJARDINS: The next one, Mr. Speaker, the same thing, No. (1 ), if he's talking about total staff man-years hired by the government, fine; if he's talking about staff in the working of a Day Care it's the same answer. So I wonder if he would clarify this? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland agree to the same caveat? MR. BROWN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think we should possibly continue on in this same fashion and talk about the people who are directly involved in the Department. MR. SPEAKER: The third one? MR. DESJARDINS: The third one is acceptable. I just want my honourable friend to know now that this entails a lot of work and it will take awhile before we can answer this. This is a difficult one, we'd have to go through all the records. While I'm on my feet, the fourth one I can accept it the way it is, but for clarification I would sugge st my honourable friend if he would agree to delete the (

i) in every case, as nursery school program, . because that is not the program under day care. We have no program under this. I could accept it and say nothing, but ... MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? MR. BROWN: Agreed . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. So ordered. All four Orders for Return. ORDER N0.20: On Motion of Mr. Brown; THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information for each fiscal year since inception of the Department of Health and Social Development's day care program:

(1) What is the total number of actual staff man-years tied to the total operation of the day care program?

(2) What is the total number of actual staff man-years tied to the operation of the Day Care Office itself?

(3) What is the total number of actual staff man-years tied directly to program accounting by professional and clerical staff attached to the Day Care Office?

(4) What is the total number of actual staff man-years tied to the Day Care Office personnel assigned the function of a resources staff? ) ORDER NO. 21: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information for each fiscal year since inception of the Department of Health and Social Development's day care program:

(1) What is the total number of staff man-years directly tied tothe day care program . (

i) actual (ii) voted (iii) requested.

(2) What is the total amount of subsidy grants directly tied to the day care program . (

i) actual (ii) voted (iii) requested.

(3) What is the total amount of maintenance grants directly tied to the day care program. (

i) actual (ii) voted (iii) requested.

(4) What is the total amount of start-up grants directly tied to the day care program. (

i) actual (ii) voted (iii) requested. ORDER NO. 22: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information for each fiscal year since inception of the Department of Health and Social Development's day care program: I. (

a) What is the number of fully subsidized child care spaces provided for children of single parent families. (

b) What is the number of fully subsidized child care spaces provided for children of two parent families. 2. (

a) What is the number of single parent families receiving fully subsidized day care assistance. 298 ..

Thursday,March 3, 1977 (

b) What is the number of two parent families receiving fully subsidized day care assistance. 3. (

a) What is the number of partially subsidized child care spaces provided for children of single parent fam ilies. (

b) What is the number of partially subsidized child care spaces provided for children of two parent families. 4. (

a) What is the number of single parent families receiving partially subsidized day care assistance. (

b) What is the number of two parent families receiving partially subsidized day care assistance. ORDER NO. 23: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information for each fiscal year since inception of the Department of Health and Social Development's day care program: (1 ) What is the total number of fully subsidized child care spaces in Winnipeg provided through each of the following options: (