Volume XL -- Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 55 17 June 1986

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. BARRY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, from certain questions that are being put by the press, and I do not know if they are being put to the Premier, to the ministers and members on the other side, there seems to be some impression that the time when the House will close will depend upon the fact that the per diems that are being paid to members of the House - MR. YOUNG: That is your caucus. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is traditional and customary to rise to explain if there is a misconception by the media on some matter. It may be that the Premier may like to say something to clarify it. It is our understanding that there will be a Fall session of the House of Assembly. When the House closes it is open. Whether it closes today, tomorrow or next week, the .fact of the matter remains that there are, I think, eight members of the Opposition who are affected and who incur expenses while the House is open for which they are compensated. There are seven members of the Opposition who are not compensated.

L3208 June 17, 1986 Vol XL MR. YOUNG: That is what you were counting on your fingers yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Magnificant order we have on the other side, is it not? There are seven membes of the Opposition who do not receive per diems but, in any event, all members of the Opposition are prepared to be here and expect that there will be a Fall session and expect that they will be here at considerable, I might say, cost to them. The Premier may comment, but I believe that it was the intention of the Premier to make it more difficult for those eight opposition members to be present.

Perhaps th~ Premier might like to clarify that point, Mr. Speaker. Members of the Opposition will be here, whether they are members who traditionally receive per diems or not, to continue the business of the Province, and we hope to be here for a Fall session at which time, as I understand it, no members will be receiving per diems. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that is a point of order. Quite honestly it is not a point of order at all. If the hon. member wants to ask me the question at Question Period, I am only too happy to answer it. MR.

SPEAKER: I must rule there is no point of order. No. 55 R3208

Oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier whether in fact he put a cap on per diems in an attempt to see the House of Assembly session shortened. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think it flowed out of the report of the Committee that was established - MR. BARRY: No, it did not. PREMIER PECKFORD: That was mentioned in the report. I thought it was mentioned in the report. MR. BARRY: No. You are wrong. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: I thought it was in the report of the Committee. Well, I guess, Mr. Speaker, it was done by Cabinet to reflect that the members of the Legislature too would be responsible in the way they approach the affairs of the Province and the amount of money that came out of the public chest, you know, in line with other restraints that are ongoing by the government. It was a figure that was at the highest level that was L3209 June 17, 1986 Vol XL ever received. I do not think there was ever a time when more than that figure was received by members.

It is a fair amount of money, $6,000 as I understand it, is the cap. So it was just a reasonable figure to take. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader of the Mr. Speaker, go very far point. He information in the Premier did not in clarifying that gave misleading every point stated. In any event, I would like to ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the development of Hibernia, can the Premier indicate where we stand now with a decision as to whether or not the Hibernia development will start this year?

Specifically, does the Premier have any comment with respect to a statement by one of the energy analysts, I think it was Ian Doig, to the effect that this basically is a decision whic -h is in the hands of the Government of Canada because the P~ovince has very little, in terms of royalties or otherwise, which, even if it wanted to, which I do not think it should, it would be able to give up because of the current price of oil? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I thought the leader was going to ask another question that he asked under a point of order, which was not a point of order, but obviously it was not very No. 55 R3209

important. Mr. Speaker, as I have indi.cated publicly on a number of occasions, negotiations are ongoing with the companies and the federal government and we are hopeful that they can. be brought to a successful conclusion very, ve~y soon. As far as the comments of this oil analyst or that oil analyst are concerned, they do not really mean all that much to me.

Obviously, there are three parties at the table and we got to try to make an arrangement which we can live with, the federal government can live with and the companies can live with but I am not going to get into the nuts and bolts of the negotiations as to whether the Province is going to do this or the Province is going to do that or the Province is considering doing something else. The negotiations are ongoing and if they are successful everybody will be informed and if they are not successful everybody will be informed.

But there are negotiations ongoing with all parties and we are trying to accelerate it to the degree that we will have those discussions completed soon and that we will have a green light. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Would the Premier indicate whether the statement by Bill Hopper, the Chairman of Petro-Canada, is correct where he stated that some form of subsidy would be needed to see the development project L3210 June 17, 1986 Vol XL proceed?

How can the Premier dismiss a statement by the head of a federal Crown corporation as though it were the head of a corporation in the private sector, which is what I understood he did last week? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: What does he mean, Mr. Speaker, that I cannot dismiss a statement by Mr. Hopper because he is the head of a Crown corporation

whereas I could dis-miss a statement by the President of Mobil? I do not see the great difference on that score. Petro-Canada has got to try to make a dollar in the same way as Mobil have to try to make a dollar. The federal _government has told them that in no uncertain terms . They are out in the business world just the same as Mobil are, so I do not understand where the suggestion comes that I cannot reject or take issue with a statement made by Mr. Hopper anymore than I can by the President of Mobil or the President of Chevron or Gulf. Of course I can. If I want to, Mr.

Speaker, I can reject anybody's suggestion. Obviously right now in the negotiations various positions are being put forward by the companies, by the federal government and by the Province, and we are trying to reach some middle ground. If in fact at the time that production begins ori Hibernia there is still a very low price for oil, then obviously some incentives may be necessary. But whether that is going to be the case or not remains to be seen. MR. BARRY: Is it going to get underway this year? No. 55 R3210

PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. ·MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Premier as well. At a recent Newfoundland offshore petroleum conference a consulting expert, Mr. Bill Pomfret stated, 'Industrial standards are inadequate, inspection is incompetent or sloppy, the government is not enforcing its own regulations.' What does the Premier say to that? PREMIER PECKFORD: Not very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans a supplementary. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Is that so? A couple of years after the Ocean Ranger that is not a very appropriate answer, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: Ask your leader about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: What does Newfoundland not apply L3211 June 17, 1986 Vol XL the international safety ratings systems that have been established by the International Loss Control Institute so that Mobil's or any other operators safety standards on rigs in Newfoundland's offshore can be judged or compared to safety standards on rigs working offshore anywhere in the world? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Improvements are being made every day, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Would the Premier indicate to the House how it is that Mr. Pomfret could find serious safety hazards on the rigs within one week after a government inspection? How could Mr. Pomfret, and he is a recognized safety consultant, find such safety deficiencies when a government inspector could not within a time frame of one week? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I find deficiencies with the hon. member and he has been a member of the House for many years. MR. FLIGHT: Smart answers! MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. No. 55 R3211

MR. DECKER: My question is- for the han. the Premier. Has the Premier been briefed - I think that is the defence word we use now - on the crisis in the Roddickton-Englee-Bide Arm area where the road up there has been blocked and DOT trucks have not allowed to put calcium chloride on the road? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am aware that some people were concerned about the roads up there, and someone was telling me that the citizens have the roads blocked and they cannot put the calcium chloride on.

I had not been aware of that, that they had actually blocked the roads so that normal operations could not continue, but I am glad the bon. member has brought it to my attention. MR. DECKER: A quick supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SP.EAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Would the Premier undertake to have the matter investigated with a view to restoring order up there? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The only probl~ with that is that once order is restored then there is something wrong with the government for restoring order.

As I usually view the Opposition, if we do not do anything, then we should restore order and once we L3212 June 17 , 1986 Vol XL restore order we are somehow interferring with individual rights. But obviously if the hon. member wants order restored, I think there is an RCMP detachment in Roddickton. There is a forestry officer as well as a couple of thousand · people, and I think there is a medical clinic there as well. MR. CALLAN: And there is no pavement there. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: And there is no pavement there. So in what order do you want me to do it?

Restore order and then roll the pavement? MR. FLIGHT: Reverse the process. MR. DECKER: Do it any way you want to. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will take the matter in the vein that the bon. member posed the question and that was one of concern and have the matter checked out to see that the normal course of business proceeds in the Roddickton area. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. DECKER: The road blocking would the Premier correct the problem? No. 55 is a symptom. undertake to R3212

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know. I imagine there are many problems in Roddickton as there are all over the Province and I do not think I could undertake, as a sweeping commitment, that I will eliminate all the problems of -Roddickton just with the touch of my hand or the making of one decision, but I will do what I can. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SP EAKER: The han. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr.

Doyle), but due to the fact that he is not here I wi 11 ask the Premier. The minister gave us a partial list of the capital works programme for Newfoundland for his department a couple of weeks ago and he promised that he was going to announce the complete list very shortly. Now as we understand it the House is about to close. Are we going to get it before the House closes? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know, Mr. Speaker, because I do not know what time the House is closing, but I will tell the han . member we are working very hard to get the rest of the projects approved.

As the han. member is aware there are in the order of perhaps $50 million or $60 million requests in, if not more, and ·there will be perhaps L3213 June 17, 1986 Vol XL $20 million or $25 million approved, so we want to be careful in the assessment of those projects to make sure that they are done on need in the way that we have done the first list . For example, there was a great need in the hon. member for Fogo's district which we are going to try to correct. And there are many other big needs, so we are working fairly hard to get the rest of those projects done as quickly as possible.

Whether it will be done in time for the House, I do not know because, as I said, I do not know when the House is closing. MR. GILBERT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Burgee­ Bay d' Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, maybe the Premier is waiting until the House closes so they will be able to do the political pork barelling that they have been doing with any opposition. Maybe he could make an announcement as to when it is going to be done? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I am sorry to hear the han. member say that.

I do not know if he is working for his district or working against his district or what. We have tried in the first list that carne out to be very fair to all parts of the Province regardless of what member represented it. If the hon. member is attacking me now and attacking the government because we did that well then what he is saying is we should go back and do it another way, not do it on the No. 55 R3213

basis of ·need just do it on political patronage. The Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr: Simms) today announced a $500,000 programme which is going to help the hon. member's district. We are going to be hiring people who are receiving social assistance and put them to work cleaning up where the fires have been burning down on the Bay d' Espoir highway and in other parts of Newfoundland, hundreds and hundreds of jobs for people of the Province who do not have jobs right now.

We will have other doing re-seeding all throughout Central Newfoundland, so I do not know if the bon. member is upset with all these positive things that we are trying to do. We are trying to our best to help the bon. member. We have built the only salmon hatchery in the Province - where? - in the bon. member's district. MR. GILBERT: The federal government is paying for part of that. PREMIER PECKFORD: It is a real model and we just put another $258,000, or something, in it. Also, we placed a new ferry down there last week.

The bon. member is attacking the salmon hatchery, he is attacking the new job creation programme announced today by the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, and he is attacking the new ferry. Everything that we do for the bon. member he attacks. MR . TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: L3214 June 17 , 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, I have a question for ·the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard) , but in his absence I will ask the Premier.

There are many individuals in this Province's unions who believe that political parties in this Province should not receive a portion of the hard-earned union dues they pay out to fill the coffers of certain political parties. Their primary objection to this is the elimination of choice in these matters. My question to the Premier is: Is there any process whereby union members, especially fishermen, many of whom believe that the Fishermen's Union is using their hard-earned money to support the NDP and the Leader of the NDP, the member for Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick), is there any process in place now whereby union members can use the right or opt out of this unfair practice? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know is the answer. MR. GILBERT: That is a typical answer, too. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PRE .MIER PECKFORD: Listen to the burp from Burgee again now, the negative burp. I do not know. It question. We have way. What is the formula that is used? MR. MARSHALL: The Rand formula. No. 55 is come name a a of good long the R3214

PREMIER PECKFORD: One of the problems is the Rand formula, which is one of the things that held up the strike down at telephone company, if · you remember, back a year or so ago where the union was holding out to ensure that the company automatically took out the union dues on ·behalf of the union. It is a good point. If the hon. member has any suggestions I would be glad . to receive them and government would consider them. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo. MR. TULK: the hon. the Mr.

Speaker, I point out to the Premier that the NDP and its leader supposedly operate on the premises of principle. For all we know, for example, those funds could be used to support Greenpeace, and we know what they did to the seal fishery and which is diametrically opposed to fishermen in particular. I ask the Premier would he, if there is not a process in place, investigate and attempt to see that the process of opting out is put in place? . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I will take a look at it, Mr.

Speaker, I would appreciate any suggestions that the hon. member has. MR. TULK: A final supplementary, . Mr. L3215 June 17, 1986 Vol XL Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, under the Constitution, I think it is

Section 2 of the Charter of Rights, and I would like to quote these to the Premier - PREMIER PECKFORD: I know them very well. MR. TULK: You know them very well. PREMIER PECKFORD: I helped put them in place. MR. TULK: Well, listen to them again, 'The fundamental freedoms are freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression.' I know there are court cases ongoing about unions using dues to support political parties, and there are decisions in lower courts but there have not been decisions in our courts. I wonder if the Premier would undertake, perhaps through the Minister of Justice (Ms.

Verge), to see if indeed this whole matter is contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I can have that investigated, Mr. Speaker. I just point out to the hon. member, though, one of the things that was done as a result of the new constitution, and one of the processes that have been ·put in place now, is that a lot of final decisions are going to be made by the courts. Up until the new constitution, one of the No. 55 R3215

concerns that a number of the premiers, including myself, had at the time about the Charter of Rights was that what you were doing was diluting the British Parliamentary system by taking out of the hands of elected people, nameiy the Legislature and the cabinets of the country or of the jurisdiction, those kinds of decisions and placing them in the hands of the courts. Because the nature of the Charter of Rights is that it is rather broad and therefore will be open to wide

interpretation and that that

interpretation is going to come from the courts and will be binding upon all the citizens of that jurisdiction. So that is one of the problems you have. And whilst we can investigate and have an opinion that it may or may not violate the Charter of Rights, the final adjudication of same is going to be through the courts of Canada, for better or for ill, and be more similar to the American system of things. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. · SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition. Leader of the MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, before, I surprisingly addition of yesterday or the day am not sure, in the national The Globe and Mail but not in the St. John's edition, there was a story carried on the Public Works scandal in this Province where a spokesman for the Premier was quoted, and I am wondering if the Premier is aware of this, as saying that the Premier is miffed by the Minister of Public Works• (Mr. Young) L3216 June 17, 1986 Vol XL indiscretion but that he will not consider asking the minister to resign because he had done nothing illegal.

Would the Premier confirm whether the spokesman was speaking accurately in this situation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, The Globe and Mail was not speaking accurately in that situation. The Globe and Mail has been inaccurate as it relates to me. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker the Premier does not like the CBC, he does not like The Globe and Mail, and how many others? Are there any that he does like? Maybe it is only Newfoundland Information Services, Mr. Speaker, or Radio Moscow.

Let us find out what it is. I would like to ask the Premier is he going to spend the Summer now with the albatross of that dead minister around his neck? going to be seen - MR. YOUNG: I look after the dead. MR. BARRY: Is he Is the Premier satisfied to go through the Summer with the odour of that scandal hanging around his neck because the Premier is condoning the statement of the minister that he hires young men and women based on their parents• politics? No. 55 R3216

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I shall be going to Halls Bay for the Summer hopefully to jig a few fish and so on. Hopefully the Liberal odor will not stretch that far, Mr. Speaker. As far as the Minister of Public Works and Services is concerned, as a number of members have said in this House and I have said, in the last two or three years, look at the Auditor General's report. That is the report card on the Minister of Public Works and Services and that is clean. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, in addition to minister's public confession he has engaged in patronage abused his office, we also - MR. TOBIN: 'Leo', did you pay Rockhart? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: the the that and They would not give me enough money. MR. TOBIN: Yes, they did. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we also have the Minister of · Public Works coming into this House and making statements that are contrary to the facts as established by the Government House Leader.

Is the L3217 June 17, 1986 Vol XL Premier now prepared to condone ministers in his Cabinet making a mockery of Question Period, a mockery of the House of Assembly, a mockery of · the principle of accountability? Is he prepared to have minister remain in his Cabinet after they have misled this House in response to questions? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not innuendo like the hon. the Opposition. entertain Leader of MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry!

A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition should withdraw that remark. Unless he can prove that I came in and misled this han. House he should withdraw the remark. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I will be happy, Mr. Speaker, to lay this before an independent enquiry and I will be prepared, Mr. Speaker, to abide by any consequences flowing from that No. 55 R3217

enquiry. If, Mr. Speaker, it is established that the minister has not stated that he applies patronage, if it is established, Mr. Speaker, that the minister did not issue a memorandum contrary to what he said in this House, if it is established, Mr. Speaker, that the minister's statements were accurate and correct, I will be prepared to stand before this House and offer my resignation. Because that minister, Mr. Speaker- SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no. Do not resign. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, now here we have it. MR. YOUNG: Sit down. sit down. He is a sick man, Mr. Speaker. MR.

TULK: 'Brian', You do 'Brian'! - you know you are wrong . not have the courage, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I am prepared to do, Mr. Speaker, what used to be an honourable tradition in this House, as it still is in certain jurisdictions, ' and that is to put my seat on the L3218 June 17, 1986 Vol XL line, Mr.

Speaker, if the statements that we have set out with respect to the minister engaging in patronage, with respect to the minister misleading this House with respect to that memorandum are untrue. I am prepared to put my seat on the line and have it made the subject of an independent, impartial inquiry. And I ask the Premier to show the courage, Mr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: that he pretends he has. I ask the Premier to show, Mr. Speaker, that he lives up to those principles of clean government which he has been pretending he has, or otherwise, Mr.

Speaker, let the message go forth that from this day forth, it is goodbye, Mr. Clean. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: , Mr. Speaker, it is clear in the · precedents of this House and Beauchesne that one is not allowed to say that a person has misled the House. I refer Your Honour to Beauchesne, Page 108 and 109. There are about twenty instances there where it is out of order. Now, the hon. gentleman talks about misleading the House.

I mean, for the bon. gentleman to say that after his career in politics, where he left this :administration, and he showed - I No. 55 R3218

will not say misled the House because that is out of order that he misled the people of Newfoundland when he left this administration, he went across ~his House and within a ten day period he voted for the Atlantic Accord. The fact of the matter is, Mr. SpeakE_:'!r, nobody is allowed to say that ·-somebody misled this House and he should withdraw it, particularly somebody who has misled every day the people of the Province of Newfoundland. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han . the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is the word 'mislead' can be used.

That is not the real problem here, Mr. Speaker. What the Government House Leader sees is a Leader of the Opposition who is willing to do the honourable thing, to put his seat on the line if he is proven wrong. The Minister of Public Works did mislead this House when he stood in his place and on four occasions said no, he did not issue a memorandum, 'No, no, no, no.' And the next day or a couple of days bater, the Government House Leader came in and read from the same memorandum. Now, if the Premier had the courage that he says he has - MR. BARRY : Let us have an inquiry. have an inquiry, 'Haig'. MR.

TULK: Let us - he would ask for an inquiry and he would ask that minister to step L3219 June 17, 1986 Vol XL down until the inquiry complete. But, no, he does have the courage to do it. is the real problem here. MR. MARSHALL: Just briefly, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: was not That To that point of· order, the hon . the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: We are divided here. It is a real, what they call a dichotomy, a contradiction. As far as the government is concerned, I under the Leader of the Opposition has offered to resign. The government does not want him to resign, even though, Mr.

Speaker, he ought to resign because of his conduct, and they invite the Minister of Public Works and Services to resign, and here is the best Minister of Public Works and Services that this Province has seen in a decade. So we are not going to. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: We are not going to trade the Minister of Public Works and Services for the Leader of the Opposition. The longer the Leader of the Opposition stays there, the longer the Conservative Party will be in government. The longer the Minister of Public Works and Services stays here, the longer this government will be in power as well.

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Just one final word on that, the hon. the Le?der of the Opposition. No. 55 R3219

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, maybe we can make some other sort of deal now. In return for a public inquiry into this, Mr. Speaker, maybe we can have some sort of deal that if the Minister - MR. FENWICK: What are you speaking to now? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: I am speaking to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, raised by the Minister of Public Works and Services. If they are concerned about my resigning, Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to leave it up to the Premier. If he grants that inquiry, Mr.

Speaker, I am prepared to give the Premier the option of either having me resign or stay silent for the next three to four years , Mr. Speaker. Let him have that option, but let him not try and get away from the fact that an inquiry is warranted, an inquiry is required into the stench coming from the Department of Public Works and Services. As a result of the minister's statements and the minister's actions there is a stench, an odour of corruption across that entire administration, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To that point of order, I think there should be a definite distinction between 'misleading the House' and 'deliberately misleading the House. ' The tenn was 'misleading' and in that particular context today I must rule there was no point of order. L3220 June 17 , 1986 Vol XL MR. BARRY: .. Mr. Speaker, if I could finish my question, which was interrupted by the minister's point of order, I would like to ask the Premier - MR. FENWICK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: As I recall, you just recognized me when the Minister of Public Works and Services stood up. So I believe I had the option to ask a question at that point. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, that is just a matter of fact, actually. If I recall correctly, I did recognize the hon. member for Menihek at that particular time and then the han. minister got up. I had recognized the han. the member for Menihek at the time. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: With the confusion at . the time it might not have been beard, but I can recall recognizing him.

The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, my question was for the Minister of Municipal Affairs, but since he is not here it will be to the Premier. It concerns an individual whom we have been trying to help in Hearts Desire, a woman who is close to harassed by the municipal council there. I will be sending him over a letter that has the details in it. I do No. 55 R3220

not want to go into too much detail myself but one issue did arise and I want some clairification on it, hopefully from the government. In this case the woman is making a level of income considerably lower than the minimum exemption under the Income Tax Act, and my understanding is that under the Municipalities Act these individuals are exempt __ form the poll tax, or at least that :is my understanding of it. AN HON. MEMBER: Question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: I will get to the question. It is coming now.

In this particular case the municipality has assigned a garbage tax equivalent to the poll tax so that this individual is exempted from the poll tax but will have to pay exactly the same amount on a garbage tax. My question to the Premier: Is this indeed correct and is this an ethical way for communities to behave with individuals who are obviously earning so little that they should be exempted from this tax? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of = all the municipality has the power, I think under the Municipalities Act, to exempt people based upon their circumstances.

That power has been passed over to the municipality. Now, if I am not mistaken, in the case of most of the municipalities in the Province anyway, and I would just assume it it true for this municipality, that person would be paying both a L3221 June 17, 1986 Vol XL poll tax and a garbage collection tax under normal circumstances, and that the council has just levied the garbage tax.

There is a poll tax in almost every municipality in the Province, so I am not sure if the hon. member is right when he says that they are going through the back door to get the poll tax through the garbage, because in most municipalities there is a poll tax and in a lot of them there might also be a garbage tax as well. I am not sure whether he is right in his

interpretation the motives of the council because very often there are two taxes and right now that person is only paying one for the reasons that the bon. member has given, that the person does not have enough income. In any case, I will take the letter and the details and go through it, and if there is some inequity there, then we will get onto it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for st. John's North. MR. J.

CARTER: I would like to present the report of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. It is signed by all members of the Committee and it represents · a concensus. No. 55 R3221

MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: There is now a report presented by the · Committee on Privileges and Elections. I think it would be appropriate, Mr. Speaker, that the House promptly deal with any positions or recommendations taken in this report. I ask the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) whether it is the intention of government to have that done today, to have that report - it looks like a very thin report, three or four pages. MR. J. CARTER: No one has seen it yet except the members of the Committee. MR.

BARRY: I know but it looks like only three or four pages. I do not think it would take very long for all members to make themselves familiar with it. I wonder if we could agree that this matter will be dealt with before we close today. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council, to that point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentlemen there opposite were complaining halfway through the session that the Committee's report was not tabled. It is just tabled now. I have not even seen the text of the report.

I would assume that would satiate the desires of the members of the Opposition and the members L3222 June 17, 1986 Vol XL of the enquiring press with respect to it. I would have to wait to look at the report before I would make a comment on it. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I must rule there is no point of order. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order as well. MR. SPEAKER: A new point of order, the han. the member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: The fact that the Committee, of course, was investigating a matter resulting from this member establishing a prima facie case of breach of privilege - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! That is not a point of order. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to raise a point of order based on the fact that I want to be given the right, if necessary, to respond to what is in the report because I have no idea what the report is saying. The Committee was established to investigate a matter pertaining to what was raised by this member here and, based on that, I am hoping to have the right to be able to respond in this House to the comments of the report, if necessary. Petitions MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 55 R3222

The hon. the membeL foL the StLait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: On behalf of eighty Lesidents of Bide Am, I beg leave to pLesent this petition: "WHEREAS LOute 432, which connects the Viking TLail to the Canada Bay BLanch, is not completely upgLaded and paved; "AND

WHEREAS the people of Bide Am aLe totally depend on this LOad to impoLt all theiL food, fuel, clothing, building supplies, etc.; "AND

WHEREAS the people of Bide Am depend on this Load to expoLt ouL pLoduce, namely, 2 million pounds of pLocessed fish pLoduct annually; "AND

WHEREAS the people of Bide Am depend on -this Load foL ambulance seLvices to the hospital at St. Anthony; "AND

WHEREAS the Bide Am area has an excellent tourist potential which is being discouLaged by the condition of Route 432; "We, the Lesidents of Bide Am, hereby humbly pLay that the bon. House of Assembly will instLUct the bon. the Premier and the han. the MinisteL of TLanspoLtation (ML. Dawe) to take immediate action to have Route 432 completely upgLaded and paved." ML. SpeakeL, while I stand to pLesent this petition today, the people in the Roddickton, Englee and Bide Am aLea have set up a LOad block. Now, foL quite some yeaLs the people in that aLea have been toyed aLound with by this goveLnment.

A little oveL two yeaLs ago the MinisteL of L3223 June 17, 1986 Vol XL TLansportation (ML. Dawe) went into Roddickton and Englee and in public meetings pLomised, without any conditions attached whatsoeveL, that he would pave some Loads in that aLea immediately, as soon as the snow was gone, as soon as Summer came upon them. This was a promise, ML. SpeakeL, which Laised the hopes of the p~op~e in the area. Then, ML. SpeakeL, the question of propeLty taxes came up and the people weLe told that they could not get any paving in the area unless they had a property tax system in place. That was done.

All three communities have now put property taxes in place, Mr. Speaker. This past Spring there was a delegation in here from Roddickton, Englee and Bide Arm. The delegation met with the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) and the Minister of Municipal· Affairs (Mr. Doyle). The members of the delegation assuLed the goveLnment that the town councils had done all that they were supposed to do, namely, they had made arrangements with their own banks to raise their percentage of the 60/40 funding. They had the pLoperty taxes in place. Everything was in order.

All that was required now was for the pLovincial goveLOment, through Municipal- Affairs and with the Minister of TranspoLtation, to do the TranspoLtation Department's sections of roads in the towns. The delegations went back quite happy, ML. Speaker. They weLe quite happy and the they felt that at least no politics would be involved and that the decision would be based on need. Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the No. 55 R3223

calcium chloride t["uck a["["ived in Roddickton, Englee and Bide ALm area. The people, not being totally dense, ["ealized that once the calcium chloride t["uck came in, it was anothe[" way of saying there would be no paving this year. "We are going to keep the dust down as we did last year." MR. PEACH: That is all ove[" the Province, boy. MR. DECKER: The logical conclusion, the subtlety of which seems to escape the membe[" fo[" Carbonear (Mr. Peach), M[". Speake[", is this, that there is no point in applying calcium chloride on the ["Oads if you a["e going to pave the ["Oads.

There is no point in putt ing calcium chloride on. As wasteful as this goveLnment is, I do not think they a["e wasteful enough to go and put calcium chlodde on ·a ["Oad today, if they intend to pave it next week. The people, Mr. Speake[", realize that the roads a["e not going to be paved, that the Ministers of Transpo["tation and Municipal Affairs will not keep their conunitments and are not going to pave the roads. Today the["e is a crisis there.

I have talked with the town council who is concerned that the ambulance may not be able to get to the hospital; who is concerned that the food could run out in the area; who is concerned that file! will not get in f["om the hyd["o plant, which means that the place is going to be without elect["icity. Therefo["e, Mr. Speaker, in supporting this petition, I am taking advantage of bringing it to the Premier's attention. There is an impending crisis in that area and I am L3224 June 17, 1986 Vol XL asking him and his people to try to solve the problem. I am not suggesting that he call in the artillery.

I am not suggesting that he call in the aLmed forces. That seemed to be his reaction with the NAPE strike. I am suggesting he go to the heart of the problem. The road blockage, Mr. Speaker, is a symptom of problems that have been taking place all over this Province. Go in and solve the problem or else stop your ministers from going in and attempting to tell people that they are going to do something, and then end up not doing it. There is a word for that, Mr. Speaker, which I am not allowed to say in this Chamber. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. Opposition . MR.

BARRY: Mr. Speaker, me to get petition so colleague, Strait of Decker). the Leader of the it is a pleasure for up and support the ably presented by my the member for the Belle Isle (Mr. You know, people who have been prepared to vote according to their principles deserve some recognition by this House and, despite the fact that the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) has stated, Mr. Speaker, time after time, that he will allot money on the basis of how people vote - he will abuse his position and allot money on the basis of political consideration - despite that, the No. 55 R3224

people of Bide Arm, the people of Englee and the people of Roddickton, have gone out and they have voted on their principles and they have retuLned a Liberal member to the House of Assembly, and a very good member, I think everybody would agree. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, it is not, I do not think, proper for members of the PC administration to punish the people of Bide Arm, Englee and Roddickton, which they seem to be prepared to do.

It is particularly despicable for this strategy to be employed when the minister made a solemn promise - and when the credibility of a Minister of the Crown and, indeed, the entire administration is at stake - but it is small wonder, you know, that the Premier is prepared to have his ministers endanger their credibility when we witness what the Premier himself has done with his own credibility.

He said, 'I have been bluffing and misleading the people of this Province since 1979 with respect to my position on the Newfoundland Railway.' When he gets up and is prepared to leave a Minister of Public Works and Services in office who has abused his position, and when that Premier goes out to the people of the Province and says , ' I am interested in running a clean government, I am interested in improving the level of public morality, raising the level of public morality', and then the Premier gets up and is prepared to live with that action of his Minister of Public Works and Services - MR.

MARSHALL: L3225 June 17 , 1986 Vol XL A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The bon. gentleman said, 'The bon. member is the best member for the Strait of Belle Isle that this Legislature has seen.' He is certainly better than his predecessor and his predecessor before him. The fact of the matter is the hon. gentleman brought in a petition with respect to a situation in Bide Arm and what the hon. gentleman was doing was debating and trying to make a point that he has been very unsuccessful in making over the past two weeks. MR.

BARRY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon : the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: It is a very serious matter that I am dealing with here which goes to and is raised directly by the petition and the remarks of the member of the Strait of Belle Isle because it goes to government credibility. When a Minister of the Crown goes. in and makes a promise to people in communities and says, 'We will be paving your roads.' Unqualified! Particularly, when it is done on the basis of the people in the community doing things such as bringing in property tax, then, Mr.

Speaker, it is breaking with the trust which government ministers are empowered with. It is affecting the credibility of the No. 55 R3225

administ~ation in its enti~ety when that ministe~ would then tu~n a~ound and b~eak the wo~d, b~eak the solemn p~omise which was given to these people. I -am just pointing out, M~. Speake~, and this is why it is ~elevant, I am pointing out it is the same thing as the Premier is doing in damaging his own c~edibility when he suppo~ts the Ministe~ of Public Works and Se~vices (M~. Young) and leaves him in office. It is di~ectly on point. It is di~ectly ~elevant to the petition and it goes to the essence of what is w~ong on the othe~ side.

They are just filling in time until the next election, they know they a~e gone, they know they a~e on thei~ way out and they figu~e they can do whateve~ they want now because they do not have any chance next time anyhow, no chance at all next time. I would also like to close by saying it is unfo~tunate that we did not have a few mo~e membe~s use that wonderful f~ont page on thei~ election folde~ that I see the membe~ fo~ Bellevue (M~. Callan) used because I am su~e the~e could have been fifty-two dist~icts rep~esented by this side of the House, represented by the pa~ty which the membe~ fo~ Bellevue ~ep~esents.

Have you seen that, M~. Speaker? Have you seen the fine a~t wo~k? Even the membe~ fo~ Placentia (M~. Patte~son) has one but we did not get it out in time Eo~ the election, M~. Speaker. He picked it up afte~ the election. If we had only got it out in time. I know what happened. They p~obably voted for the member for Bellevue when the member fo~ Placentia distributed that around the district. We split the vote L3226 June 17, 1986 Vol XL between Placentia Bellevue. ou~ candidate and our candidate MR. SPEAKER: O~de~, please! for for I would like to rule on that point of o~de~.

The~e is no point of o~de~ and the hon. membe~ has just about thirty seconds left. MR. BARRY: Well, I will just say, M~. Speake~, again, that that is a petition that should be considered because the c~edibility of the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), the c~edibility of the Premier, as well as the credibility of the Minister of Transportation (Mr; Dawe) is at stake, the c~edibility of the enti~e administration. Pave those roads and do it quickly! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea~. hea~! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speake~, I just want to say thi~ty seconds is more than the electo~ate will give the han. member.

He is operating on bo~rowed time. MR. BARRY: They a~e going to give me five years. Orders of the Day MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 43. The adjourned by the bon. fo~ Gande~. debate was the member The bon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No. 55 R3226

The Bill has to do with the School Tax Autho~ities and, to summa~ize, the~e was a p~oblem since 1979 whe~eby sixteen of the twenty-one School Tax Authorities in the P~ovince have been illegal and this Bill t~ies to st~aighten up that mess. M~. Speake~, I am not in favou~ of School Tax Authorities and I would like to take a few minutes to point out why. Maybe some members of the House other than myself could point out other reasons why we do not support School Tax Authorities. First of all, the School Tax Autho~ities are unfai~. I am glad to see the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) back in his seat.

If you look back over the taxes that are levied by the School Tax Authorities, first of all, you will find t~emendous differences. For instance, from 1984, and, I think the differences are ever greater today, Labrador West had a rate of seven mils on property,

whereas Fortune Bay of Bay st. George had a ~ate of only three mils. There is a tremendous difference. In terms of the poll tax charged by School Tax Authorities, District No. 1 a couple of years ago had the highest at $107, compared a poll tax of only $40 in the Ferryland school tax district. I think these poll taxes have changed again and the big diffe~ences are still evident today. It is an unfair tax from the point of view of the amounts that are levied in various parts of the Province. It creates, educational distribution an example. Mr. Speaker, unequal opportunities.

The of money per pupil is Now these School Tax L3227 June 17, 1986 Vol XL Authorities, p~esumably, are in existence to try to even out the distribution of education across this Province. However, you find tt'-emendous differences in the pee­ pupil allocations in each school tax district. For example, during 1984 - again I am c-ounding out figures - Central Labc-ador distc-ibuted about $270 per student to the schools. Now, that is admirable, Mr. Speaker. Labrado~ West, $203; St. John's around $200. I think it has gone up in the last couple of years, very admirable. Let us compare that, Mr.

Speaker, with some of the others. A place like St. Barbe South in 1984 distributed only $28 per pupil to the schools. Now, Mr. Speaker, what this means is that it leads to areas of the Province that are getting, because of the extc-a funds, a higher quality of education than the other areas of the P~ovince. Generally, Mr. Speaker, it is the riche~, more affluent parts of the Province that are getting all these extra educational benefits, the very areas of the Province, Mr. Speaker, that probably do not need them as much as the poorer areas of the Province because they are not as far behind to start with.

So they are a magnification of the difference that exists between the affluent areas of the Province and the areas that are not so affluent. The School Tax Authorities simply magnify that difference and create unequal educational opportunities in our Province, Mr. Speaker, and that is totally against the philosophy of the Department of Education, to create unequal educational opportunities. For the life of me I cannot understand why the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) No. 55 R3227

would still support that kind of thing. With regards to collection rates, there is a tremendous difference. In areas like Labrador West and St. John's, the collection rate is about 88 per cent. So one would say that within these school board areas there is a fair attempt made at collecting the taxes.

Whereas in the Strait of Belle Isle, the collection rate is only 38- per cent in District No. 1 which, Mr. Speaker, is the second largest school tax district in the Province - that is the Gander area - the collection rate is only 43 per cent compared, I will repeat again, with St. John's at a collection rate of 88 per cent. So, Mr. Speaker, there is inequality in the collection rate. Perhaps another way of looking at it, Mr. Speaker, is to look at the total revenue as a per cent of the current levy, plus the arrears.

We find that on the average across the Province, only 46 per cent is getting collected anyway, if we look at the collection rate in that way, which seems to be one ,way that we can look at it. The high is about 77 per cent. The low is about 25 per cent. It averages out to about 46 per cent. So the collection rate is very, very poor in relation to the amount of effort that is being put in.

The administration costs of the School Tax Authorities, some of them are seemingly on the surface low but I have not seen any audited school tax statements, so I cannot comment on the audited statements that would indicate the administration costs. But I can go by some of the unaudited ones in 1984. I would like to inform the Government House Leader (Mr. L3228 June 17, 1986 Vol XL Marshall) that the administration costs in one school tax districts was 52 per cent. It was one of the smaller ones. It was St. Barbe South. Conception Bay South came in at 36 per cent; Ferryland, 35 per cent.

These are some examples of some areas that had a very high administration cost. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, the administration of School· Tax Authorities in this Province results in an expenditure of close to $5 million by simply administering the School Tax Authorities. I would remind the Minister of Education and Your Honour that a Committee, one of the Committees of this House, during the examination of the estimates, indicated unanimously that they believed that School Tax Authorities sho~ld be abolished. There were many other reasons brought forward oth~r than the ones I have mentioned here today, Mr.

Speaker, like the problem with taking people to court and the difficulties that arise in court and so on. But it was obvious a Committee made up of members from both sides of the House, as a matter of fact, more members opposite than members from here, agreed unanimously that School Tax Authorities should go. Now in light of these very few - MR.. MARSHALL: Our policy is to abolish every single tax, school tax, corporate tax, sales tax, everything. That is what the Tory administration will lead to eventually. MR.

BAKER: The Government House Leader says, in case it was not picked up, that the policy of his government is to abolish all taxes and he went and No. 55 R3228

listed a number of taxes. Yet we hear the .Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) - the Government House Leader should get together with his Minister of Finance - so many times talking about taxes that are good, better and best. He talks in terms of good taxes and some taxes are better than others and so on. He does not talk about the bad taxes and some that are worse than others.

So I think there is a difference in philosophy here between the Government House Leader, who is a very progressive person, almost Liberal, who believes in reducing taxes and ·doing away with taxes and the Minister of Finance, who is obviously a very conservative person who ' believes that taxes are good and there are degrees of goodness in taxes, Mr. Speaker. Anyway, it is interesting to hear that comment from the Government House Leader. I am not going to go on very much longer, Mr . Speaker.

I could talk for hours about the inequities and the problems with the School Tax Authorities but I am sure that the Minister of Education is probably aware of most of them anyway. It is his problem right now, not . mine, although it may be my problem in a couple of years. Mr. Speaker, I cannot support this bill simply because I do not support the existence of the School Tax Authorities. I believe that - a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, Mr.

Speaker that if the people of this Province are to be taxed, if this has to happen, then the taxes should be collected through the central authority, that would not increase the administration cost and then, distributed equitably. I am not talking now about being distributed according to the L3229 June 17 , 1986 Vol XL political strife of a district but distributed equitably across the Province so that we have an equality of educational opportunity in the Province . Mr. Speaker, School Tax to conclude, the Authorities create in educational inequality opportunity against it. and that is why we are MR. FENWICK: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the member for Menihek. MR . FENWI CK: I have just a few comments, essentially to echo the comments made by the member for Gander (Mr. Baker). We have obviously gone over School Tax Authorities in the Estimates Committee with the minister and I think that there has been a thorough thrashing out of the arguments for and against them.

The member for Gander, I think, did an adequate job, maybe even a better than adequate job of putting forward the very substantive argument against the idea of school tax authority starting with the idea that they are inequitable, the fact that the School Tax Authorities charge as much as $126, I believe, on a poll tax in my district and as low as $80 in other districts. That is inequitable given that individuals have approximately the same levels of income. The mil rate, as has been pointed out, is 7 mils, in my district is as low as I think 4 mils and other places, that is inequitable.

The even more inequitable part about it is the amount yielded to the individual school boards per No. 55 R3229

.... student in the school system, it is even more atrociously distributed. As the minister, I think, indicated in our Committee meeting, somewhere in excess of $200 per student is collected with the School Tax Authority in St. John's, yet in a district like st. Barbe, I believe, the amount is somewhere like $100 per student, s~ there was a gross distortion of the ~amount of money going there, despite the fact, Mr. Speaker, that the amount of money needed in a rural area like ·St. Barbe, I would argue, would be considerably more than an urban area like St.

John's in which many of the costs of education are lower per pupil or per student because of the compact nature of the city and because of the economies of the scale and so on. The minister, of course, will come back and argue that if you throw away what is $19 million net I believe last year or a total of $22 million, if you include the administrative costs of the system, it must be replaced. I fully agree with him.

It must be replaced and I would argue to him that the general taxes, the progressive taxes we have, things such as income tax, corporation tax, other taxes that are graded on the ability to pay, would be the proper vehicle for it. I would be very happy to see the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) introduce measures which would increase those general taxes by the $22 million and then redistribute the money equally to the individual schools in the Province so that we do not end up with over twice as much going into an area like St. John's, than does go into an area like St. Barbe. And really, Mr.

Speaker, basically all I would L3230 June 17, 1986 that is like to Vol XL suggest about Authorities. I with the member the School Tax agree entirely for Gander that they are inequitable, not only on the revenue side but on the expenditure side. They are a vastly administratively wasteful way of collecting taxes. I believe the actual number for the overhead on ·this system is $3.5 million per year and not the $5 million that the member for Gander suggested, but . that is still a substantial amount of money that could be used for teachers, teachers aids, schools, school books, buses and so on.

As a matter of fact, it is one good high school a y~ar in administrative costs that have been used. So there is a much better use I think for that and bookkeepers and tax collectors who, I would argue with you, could be better retrained and put into the productive end of the school system. So, Mr . Speaker, I must say that I would agree with the Liberal Opposition and intend to vote against Bill 43, not for its particular content but for the fact that it is modifying a system that is clearly unfair. MR . SPEAKER: If the bon. minister speaks now he will close debate. The bon. the Minister of Education . MR.

HEARN: Mr. Speaker, the Bill is not one to create or abolish school tax authorities and consequently it is not a time to debate such. It is Bill to correct a couple of minor anomalies in the Bill and that is all the Bill is intended to do. What the two han gentlemen have said amounts to nothing, because neither of them know what they are No. 55 R3230

talking about in relation ·to the true function of school tax authorities, how the funding is distributed, and they certainly have no indication of how you would have to raise taxes in order to replace that money. However, that debate is for another time and another place, and with that I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the · Whole House presently by leave. ·(Bill No. 43). MR. SPEAKER: There is an amendment to this, so we will vote on the amendment" first. All those in favour of the amendment 'Aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR. SPEAKER: All those against the amendment 'Nay'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay. MR. SPEAKER: I declare the amendment defeated. On motion, that itself into a Whole on Ways Speaker left the the House resolve Committee of the and Means , Mr. Chair. Committee of Ways and Means On motion, that the rise, report progress leave to sit again, Mr. returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Committee and ask Speaker The bon. "the member for Terra Nova. L3231 June 17, 1986 Vol XL MR. GREENING: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of Ways and Means have considered the matters to them referred and have asked me to report progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again, presently, by leave. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have message from His Lieutenant-Governor. received a Honour the MR. SPEAKER: Please rise for a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. "May 15, 1986, The bon.

Minister of Finance: the "I, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Newfoundland, transmit estimates of sums ·required for the Public Service of the Province for the year ending, · 31st. day of March 1987, by way of further supply and in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution Act of 186 7 I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly. (sgd)--------------------­ w. Anthony Paddon, Lieutenant-Governor." MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I move that the message of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor be referred to a Committee of the Whole on Supply No. 55 R3231

and also to consider the bill which is in Committee of Supply under Motion 2, which is Bill No. 36. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply to consider the message of His Honour the Lieutentant-Governor, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole on Supply MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening) : Order, please! KR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the President of the Council. KR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I move that the total contained in the estimates presented to this bon. House be carried and that a resolution be adopted to give effect to the same. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Chairman. KR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, it is unfortunate that, approaching the closing day of the House, there are so many things that the Opposition asked for, so many amendments that we asked for with respect to the budget and other i terns, with respect to reduction in taxes that this bon. government did not see fit to do to try and bring some benefits to the people of the Province. Again, we fought hard L3232 June 17, 1986 Vol XL in this Session, Mr.

Chairman, for the benefit of the people of this Province so that there would be more money available to the consumer to spend. There is not an economist in Canada today, not one, not an economist in Canada worth his salt but believes and articulates and espouses the view that the taxes introduced by the federal government and by the provincial government are going to have an enormous effect on consumer spending; consumer spending is going to be reduced substantially in this year. We tried to bring some sense to the government by asking them to reduce the sales tax.

We have asked them to eliminate the tax on secondhand furniture, clothing, this kind of thing, particularly furniture, and we could not get to first base. We asked that tax zones be set up in this Province so that we could give a break to small business. We asked for these tax zones but again the government just denied, rejected and denigrated the idea as if the idea was being espoused by fools or people who did not know what they were talking about. Mr.

Chairman, we find it regrettable that government did not respond to any of these sound, solid initiatives offered by the Opposition so sincerely and so genuinely. That is regrettable. The other thing that is regrettable, Mr. Chairman, is that we are going to close this House without hon. members knowing how vast sums of money are going to be spent and where, and I refer particularly to Municipal Affairs where we just have announced one-third, actually, of the expenditures. Just one-third of ' the expenditures, that is all was brought before this House. I mean, there has to be something No. 55 R3232

undemocLatic about that. TheLe has to be something unpaLliarnentaLy about a system that does not tell the House where it is that it is going to spend money. ML. Chaiman, the Audi toL GeneLal does LefeL to this, and I am expecting the AuditoL GeneLal to LefeL to it in Municipal AffaiLs this yeaL. He LefeLred to it in the DepaLtment of TLansportation, where theLe was block funding. They aLe taking us foL a bunch of idiots, that we just come heLe and appLove a budget and we do not know wheLe the money is going to be spent.

What kind of a paLliamentaLy system is that, wheLe membeLs do not know where the money is going to be spent? We have asked for a list. The bureaucracy, I am sure, have been working on this list, the capital spending for the Department of Transportation. They have been working on that for months and months . Now, every now and again you will see, when you read the local papers, a little spot in the paper with an MHA on the government side announcing this little project.

Now, is this the level of government we are going to give ouL people, an MHA from somewhere announcing, in a little corner of the paper, a road project going on somewhere? Is that where they have come from? Is that what they believe? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Is that the level of mentality that we have come to in this Province, that MHAs think they are going to get elected by the people by making these silly, stupid, inane little announcements? The people of this Province are too L3233 June 17, 1986 Vol XL smart for that and I would ask hon. members to stop playing their silly games.

Every week in all of the Robinson - Blackmore papers you see these little announcements: 'Carbonear MHA announces, some other MHA announces. • How silly, Mr. Chaiman! Why can they not get into some higher level of debate and make a contribution to refom the parliamentary procedure in this Province instead of this silly nonsense of announcing these petty projects, ·thinking, of course, that the people are going to think they are great members?

Some of them announce things they had no more to do with than the man in the moon; they did not even know they were going on until somebody called them and said, 'Now, get down to your local newspaper and announce this project'. I mean, what do they think the people of this Province are doing? How stupid do they take them to be? Mr. Chaiman, here we are - MR. WARREN: (Inaudible). MR. LUSH: Mr. Chaiman, I have more to do with my .time than calling up the local newspapers to say that there is going to be some stupid project announced, some little project. I represent my constituents on a higher level than that, Mr.

Chaiman. MR. WARREN: Yes, sure! MR. LUSH: Here we are, closing the House not knowing where vast sums of municipal monies are going to be spent, not knowing whether it will be in the distLict of Bonavista North, or whether it will b~ in No. 55 R3233

the dist~ict of Te~~a Nova, whethe~ it will be in Bonavista South. M~. Chairman, it is an indictment on the pa~liamenta~y p~ocess, and the same thing will happen with the Depa~tment of Transportation. I would hope that hon. members will heed these words se~iously and, if we cannot do it in this session I would hope that in the next session we will not have to do this. I suspect the Auditor General will pick it up with Municipal Affairs, this block funding. I expect he will condemn that, because they are both the same, the only difference being, of course, that in Municipal Affairs it ·is guaranteed loans.

But it is still the Province making itself libel by granting these guaranteed . loans to municipalities in the Province. But it is block funding, and, Mr. Chairman, I . am expecting the Auditor General to condemn the Department of Municipal Affairs. What is so wrong with announcing all of these projects in the House? That is what the House is for, to approve expenditures of the people's money. How can the Opposition react intelligently when we do not know where the money is being spent? Does the government have anything to be afraid · of? Do they have anything to hide? If not, why do they not tell us?

Why do they not tell us, announce it today? Because I am sure all of these projects are decided. I am sure hon. members opposite know where all the money is going to be spent on road work this year, I am sure hon. members opposite know where all the money is going to be spent in Municipal Affairs. Now, Mr. Chairman, why can they not tell us? Maybe the minister will get the Minister of L3234 June 17, 1986 Vol XL Municipal Affairs in and get the Minister of Transportation in, or he, himself, will announce where all of these monies are going to be spent.

These are some of the concerns I have in granting this Supply Bill. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: As much as one would like to satisfy the han. member, I do not think, in all fai~ness, that I would be able to satisfy him this afternoon. This is a Supply Bill for $1,411,573,900 which, coupled with the $715,330,900, equals a total supply of $2,126,904,800 and I move, Mr. Chairman, that the total of these estimates be carried and that a resolution be adopted to give effect to the same. I move, Mr.

Chairman, that the Committee ~ise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. I would like it to be about $5 billion, without any taxes. On motion, that the rise, repo~t p~ogress leave to sit again, Mr. returned to the Chair. -~_,- MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Committee and ask Speaker The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. GREENING: Mr. Speake~. the Committee of Supply has considered the matters to it referred and has directed me to report having passed the sum of $1,411,573,900 contained in the Estimates of Supply and asks leave No. 55 R3234

to sit again . On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again now, by leave. MR. MARSHALL: I move that the report of the Committee of the Whole on Supply with respect to the Estimates for the year 1986 - 1987, together with a resolution and a bill consequent thereto be referred to a Committee of the Whole on Ways and Means and that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair. On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the . Whole on Ways and Means to consider a certain resolution and a· bill consequent thereto, Hr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of Ways and Means MR.

CHAIRMAN (Green in g): Order, please! Resolution That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the thirty-first day of March, 1987, the sum of $1,411,573,900. On motion, resolution carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed a resolution and recommend that a bill be introduced to give effect to same, carried. On motion, that the Committee L3235 June 17 , 1986 Vol XL rise, report progress leave to sit again, Mr. returned to the Chair. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! and ask Speaker The han. the member for Terra Nova. MR. GREENING: Mr . Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered the matters to them referred and has directed me to report that it has adopted a certain resolution and recommends that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same. On motion, resolution read a first and second time .

On motion, a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of the Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March One Thousand Nine Hundred And Eighty-Seven And For Other Purposes Relating To the Public Service'', read a first, second and third time, ordeced passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 36). On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain bills, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Motion 3.

Resolution That it is expedient to bring in a No . 55 R3235

measure relating to a Tax on the Users of Tobacco. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Cha i man ,-· MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this resolution would introduce a bill which is pursuant to announcement in the budget. MR. BARRY: Tax on tobacco? DR. COLLINS: Tax on tobacco, Bi 11 No. 28, yes. In essence, it would increase the tax on loose tobacco only. We are not changing the tax on cigarettes or other than loose tobacco. One cigarette is equivalent to about an ounce of tobacco, and that is now taxed at a rate of 4. 78 cents.

At the present time, loose tobacco is taxed at a much lower rate. Even with this increase it is only being taxed at about 1.57 cents, so that is considerably l~ss than the equivalent on a cigarette. But it does bring us in line with the other Atlantic Provinces. With those words of explanation, I move the resolution. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chaiman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chaiman, all throughout this session we have been trying to convince the government of the folly of their ways, the folly of their present fiscal policy of introducing taxes. Taxes everywhe.re!

Everywhere that government can apply a tax, they L3236 June 17, 1986 Vol XL are applying taxes. Even though this is a sin tax, we are disagreeing with it simply because we disagree with this government's total policy of trying to increase the revenues of this Province through a continuous policy of raising taxes. Throughout the Budget we can see examples of where the government have added to the cost of living of the ordinary Newfoundlander and Labradorian.

With motor registration fees, hunting fees, building materials, we will come to that one a little bit later, but just about everything that could be taxed, this government is taxing. Mr. Speaker, again at the expense of being accused of belabouring the point and repetition, the point must be raised again that there is not an economist in the · Western world that is not today condemning governments that levy excessively high taxes on tbeir people. The reason being that it cuts down on the disposable cash that people have, it cuts down on their spending when they are taxed every way they turn.

People are not going to spend so freely and therefore the economy is going to be stymied and hamstrung. That is what has happened in the national economy in Canada today. It would not be so bad if we ·'-Were just looking at one levet of government who are increasing taxes but, we are looking at both levels of government. In the last two years the federal government and the provincial government together have added enomously to the cost of living and to inflation by increasing these taxes. That is why we object. We do not object to the Tobacco Tax per se. I suppose one could say No. 55 R3236

people do not have to smoke if they do not want to and certainly that is correct, that is a person's decision. The point of the matter is it is not so much this particular sin tax but it is the propensity and the inclination of this government to put its claws and its tentacles out into every area, every segment of the Province and tax whatever they can get their claws and tentacles onto. It seems to be the only way they know how to raise funds and generate extra revenues for this Province. How about cutting expenditures? That does not seem to be the way at all.

The way seems to be to sock it to the people, sock it to the ordinary Newfoundlander and Labradorian. Bleed them, take every cent they have! It is absolutely ridiculous how you cannot knock into the skulls, how you cannot knock into the heads of bon. gentlemen opposite that heavy taxation just leads to a road of economic disaster. I ask the minister does he not believe that we have reached the saturation point in this Province with respect to taxes? Does the minister not believe that?

Does the minister not believe that, we, in this Province, have reached the saturation point? ·certainly, we have with our retail sales tax. That has remained unchanged for the last three or four years and no wonder. Does anyone ever c·onceive of a time when this government would have the effrontery and the audacity to increase the retail sales tax? Mr. Chairman, they would be a government with tremendous nerve indeed if they ever decided to do that, to increase the retail sales tax. We are as high as we can go. Mr.

Chairman, now they are L3237 June 17, 1986 Vol XL gone into every other area, taxes on everything we use. Can anybody name anything that we are not taxed on in this Province? AN HON. MEMBER: Fresh air. MR. LUSH: Yes. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that if hon. gentlemen opposite could tax fresh air, they would do it. Now, Mr. Speaker, they are taxing the bad air with the tobacco tax and I suppose that is not too bad.

As I said before, it is not the tobacco tax that we are against, it is simply the principle of this government, the public policy of this government to raise revenues through only the raising of taxes and taxing every service that there is in this Province. That is why, Mr. Chairman, ·we are going to vote against this tobacco tax. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the bon. member is against taxes, and I applaud him for that. I am wholeheartedly against taxes myself. I am a taxpayer so I hate taxes.

However, I think that one has to remember the facts. I have told this House before that we are not the most heavily taxed province in this country. That has been the perception but I have already told the House and the Committee that that is not so and I do not need to reiterate it. No. 55 R3237

.. There is another point that I think is just worth r-emembering. This is not an excuse for- taxes but we do have to deal with r-eality. ~ve did a study on the tax load on the people of this Province some time ago, that is the tax load related to per-sonal income per capita. In the late 1970s, about 16.2 per- cent of personal income per capita was taken up in pr-ovincial taxes. In 1985, which is the last figures we had available, the figur-e was 16.3. So it went up a tenth of a percentage point in that period of time.

Even though we are changing tax rates and so on and so for-th over the year, the per-sonal income is keeping up with it so we are not taking mor-e out of the economy than has been traditionally the case, shall we say. As I say, that "is not an excuse for taxes, it is just an explanation so that the people do not get the wrong idea; For- instance, our r-egular corpor-ate income tax is less than in Manitoba. We do not exact any corpor-ate capital tax on gener-al companies

whereas other- provinces do. Our fuel tax, 22 per cent on gasoline, is less than the 30 per cent in Quebec. I might point out that the dollar amount, or the cent amount, I guess, per- liter, is going down, - it is not going up. There is more cents per liter in tax exacted at the end of last year than there is at the pr-esent time and similarly on diesel, our 26 per- cent is less than the 30 per- cent in Quebec. Mr. Chairman, no one likes taxes, this gover-nment least of all, but they are necessar-y to carr-y out the obligations we have. We try to do them as fairly as possible.

We do the minimum tax gathering L3238 June 17, 1986 Vol XL that we have to do to discharge our- obligations and, in actual fact, we are not collecting more than has been tr-aditionally the case. I move the resolution. On motion, r-esolution carried. Motion, that the Committee Report having passed a resolution and a bill consequent thereto, car-ried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion 4, Bill No. 33. Resolution That it is expedient to br-ing in a measur-e r-especting The Retail Sales Tax Act, 1978. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister- of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, this is a r-esolution, again br-inging in a bill that goes back to the budget, and it will increase the r-etail sales tax on building supplies fr-om the 8 per- cent level back up to the 12 per cent level which, of course, is the level that is general for r-etail sales tax. I might add that this lower rate, the 8 per cent, was br-ought in in November 1982 as a stimulative measur-e for the construction industr-y, at a time when the recession was hitting this Province extr-emely hard. We have now moved out of the r-ecession.

It was always signalled that this was a temporar-y measur-e and now that inter-est rates ar-e lower and the economy is impr-oving generally, this tax is returned to the 12 per cent level. No. 55 R3238

I am sut"e hon. membet"s will know that cet"tain contt"actot"s and cet"tain ownet"s have been appi:"oaching goveLnment saying that they entet"ed into contt"acts and they took on pi:"ojects on the basis of the lowet" I:"ate. Even though it was cleat"ly signalled that this I:"ate was not a pei:"'Danently lowet" I:"ate, they stated they· entet"ed into contt"acts on this pi:"evious I:"ate and asked fot" t"elief. This is a lJ1attet" that is undet" study.

We have no desit"e to interfet"e with wot"thwhile pt"ojects OI:" to put constLUction companies at extt"eme t"isk if they at"e ·into obligations that need to be given some attention, so we at"e studying theit" conceLns. I am not in a position today to say how the mattet" would be I:"esolved, but we have taken out" conceLns into set"ious consideration and we will do what seems to be needed to be done to give the t"elief that is I:"equit"ed and that we at"e able to give within the limits of our budgetat"y possibilities. With those I:"emat"ks, I move the I:"esolution. MR. LUSH: HI:'. Chait"ffian. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member fot" Bonavista Not"th. MR. LUSH: MI:". Chait"ffian, of all the I:"evenue-t"aising measut"es taken by this goveLnment this one, this t"aising the I:"etail sales tax to the constLUction industt"y, has to be the m~st abominable, the most pi:"epostet"ous, the most nefarious act evet" taken by a goveLnment. Why do I say that? Mr. Chaii:"'Dan, it stt"ikes at the heat"t, it stt"ikes at the core of one of the most impot"tant industt"ies in this Province ·, namely, the constLUction L3239 June 17, 1986 Vol XL industt"y.

The constLUction industt"y people have said that this is going to affect them badly, that it is going to affect the numbet" of houses, the construction wot"k that is going to be done in this PI:"ovince this yeat" and, Mr. Chait"ffian, consequently it is going to affect the level of employment, or the level of unemployment. It is going to t"aise the level of unemployment in this PI:"ovince, this nefat"ious measure, this abominable measut"e of t"aising the I:"etail sales tax on constt"uction matet"ials by 4 pet" cent. MI:".

Chait"ffian, if the ministet" wet"e conceLned with genet"ating employment in this PI:"ovince, if he wet"e conceLned with increasing the numbers of jobs available to out" people, the least he could have done was to have kept this tax at · the same level, was to have maintained the status quo. This is about the only at"ea in which this goveLnment has not maintained a status quo, and that is with its tax mneasut"es. MI:".

Chait"man, I will not belabot" this bill much langei:' than to say that I think this bill will have a devastating effect on the constLUction industt"y in this yeat" and that it is cet"tainly going to do nothing to t"aise the levels of employment in the constt"uction industt"y and, thet"eby, it is going to have the effect of t"aising the levels of unemployment tht"oughout ·this PI:"ovince. MI:". Chait"man, if thet"e is any area in which this government should be sensitive it is in the at"ea of CI:"eating employment fot" out" people. The Premiet" asked fot" a mandate to create jobs.

It does not seem to me that this measure is going to be a measure that is going to help create employment. No. 55 R3239

.Mr. Chairman, again we have to say that we do not support this measure, that we strongly condemn this measure of raising the retail sales tax on building material by 4 per cent, from 8 per cent to 12 per cent. We strongly object to this measure and we hope, Mr. Chairman, that the government in their wisdom will now consider the damage . they have done to the construction industry in this Province and give this bill the six month hoist, or hang it out completely. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: Clearly you can raise all sorts of red flags about this particular resolution and bill but, in our judgement, it will not do as the member stated. The last figures we have is that, for instance, housing starts are up 43 per cent over last year. So the construction industry is doing quite well. As I have already mentioned, we will give particular cases, where this measure has caused unexpected harm, every consideration. I move the resolution. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the resolution and a bill consequent thereto, carried. MR . CHAIRMAN: Motion 5, Bill 30.

Resolution L3240 June 17, 1986 Vol XL That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend The Loan and Guarantee Act, 1957, the Act No. 70 of 1957, to provide for the advance of loans to and the guarantee of the repayment of bonds or debentures issued by or loans advanced to certain corporations. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon , the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, this resolution relates to the Loan and Guarantee Act, and I have a certain nostalgia for this particular resolution because it has been on the Order Paper for some time.

We have not actually been able to move it off, so I would hope that today the Committee will agree to move it off. It is like losing an old friend but, nevertheless, I will be glad to see it go. Mr. Speaker, when we enter into guarantees, whether it is to help out a fishing company or construction company or another resource company or whatever, these guarantees include legal documents which are signed by the Minister of Finance. They have a p·rovision that government will enter legislation before the House to ratify those agreements.

Whereas the guarantee allows the company or the individual to have access to funds, the banks do that on the understanding that this House will pass legislation ratifying the whole thing. That is what this bill does. The last time we legislation ratifying was in the Spring of that is over a year No. 55 brought in guarantees 1985. So ago. This R3240

particular bill covers a total of forty-one items, forty-one guarantees. The large majority of them were for the fishing industry, although there were a smaller number for other industries based on natural resources. Without a doubt - I think this remark will be concurred in by people in all walks of life --our guarantee programme has been extremely helpful. In actual fact, it was essential during the recession or we would have had many bankruptcies of various firms and losses of jobs. It is 'a good programme.

As the economy continues to improve, we will, hopefully, need to get less and less into giving guarantees. I move the resolution. MR. TULK: Mr. chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, there are certain questions that need to be asked, I think, about some of the companies that are mentioned in this bill as receiving guaranteed loans from the provincial government. I ask ·the minister, in particular, about one company, Easteel Industries Limited.

I want to ask the minister if, indeed, we are looking at another form of padding the political pockets of your buddies through extending guarantees to this company. I notice, for example, that we have continuously made loans and guarantees to that company. I ask the minister to tell us if indeed that company is still in a good financial situation. Are they, for exampl~, progressing along the L3241 June 17, 1986 Vol XL lines of Fisheries Products International, which is item number 13? Are they progressing? Are they showing a profit? Are they about to show a profit?

Just what is the financial situation of that company? Perhaps the minister could expand on that for us. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, Easteel has gone through very difficult times and they came to government for assistance. They also went to their creditors and asked for accommodation so that the amounts owing would be spread out over a longer period of time. They went to their bankers to also ask for accommodation .

All three parties, that is · government agreeing to give a guarantee, the creditors and the bankers, entered into an arrangement with Easteel whereby their debt was restructured. This allowed the company to continue its operations. If that agreement had not been entered into by all parties, this company, undoubtedly' would have faded and there would have been the loss of very valuable and highly skilled jobs. Since that time they have been doing pretty well. They have got some very good contracts, for instance, the Deaf School was one.

They recently got a large federal contract, I think, on the early warning line, they got a good contract there. We are supporting them on a project basis and we are protecting ourselves. In other words, we are monitoring how they are doing, what their expenditures are and what their income is on those various No. 55 R3241

L!. projects, and they are. getting a positive cash flow from each . one. We are, therefore, protected on the basis of the project guarantees that we are giving them. So it looks as though they are pulling themselves out of their difficulties and they are retaining the work force. That will be a very valuable company when the offshore project goes ahead, as it undoubtedly will. They will be one of the major fabricators in this Province taking

part in that activity. · So I think it was a worthwhile effort to retain them and I am glad to say, as I say, as things pick up, they seem to be getting on top of their debt. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN ~Greening): The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, in this particular case the government's guarantee runs out on June 30 of this year. Almost before we get the bill passed, the guarantee has run out. Presumably Easteel has had the money. The minister did not wait to get it approved by the Legislature.

I would ask him if he perceives that guarantee being extended beyond June 30, if there is any need for it? I would also like to ask him a couple of items, i tern 24 and 25. Ocean Harvesters Limited is now in or was in receivership, it has now been taken over by a new company. Did the government lose any amounts of money in that guarantee? Was it safeguarded in that regard?

Perhaps he might also tell us just what the state of Baie Verte Mines L3242 June 17, 1986 Vol XL understand that $1 million $1 million in some other sums Inc. is since I there was some guaranteed there, one instance and in some other perhaps he might on those three particular. instances. So like to comment companies in MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the Ocean Harvesters Company has now essentially, I guess, disappeared but the plant and the operation has been taken over by a new company and that is working successfully.

Yes, government did have guarantees for the Ocean Harvester Company. We did have a pay out. I must say that it is unfortunate that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) · had to leave the city. He had to go elsewhere in the Province on an urgent basis today and is · not available to answer in detail the fisheries questions but ·I can say that we took possession of the vessel that Ocean Harvesters had, the trawler, the H.V. Harvest star. I think I am at liberty to say now that we have an arrangement with Fishery Products to take over or purchase that vessel.

That will be put into effect soon, when all the paper work is done and that type of thing. I expect that the vessel will be used on the South Coast. So we have been successful in keeping that vessel in the Province and it is filling a need that Fishery Products has. With regard to Baie Verte, Baie Verte is in a very difficult situation. The markets for asbestos are in terrible shape in the world, but this government, No. 55 R3242

nevertheless, feels that with the right approach as to how . the operation should be conducted over the next few years there is a good chance that it will capture a large part of the market. As other asbestos mines elsewhere in Canada fold up their tents and go away, we will be in a good position to pick up their markets and this is why we went into an equity position with them. I am not saying, by any means, that Baie Verte is out of the woods, but we have done the best we can, knowing that the whole peninsl,lla there has a lot of reliance on the operation at Baie Verte.

We are hopeful that they -will finally be able to continue to operate and that they will, in time, be able to get rid of the huge amount of waste they have to to open up new ore bodies. We will then be in a position to be very competitive on the world markets because of the good type of ore that is out there. MR. TULK: How much did you lose on Ocean Harvesters? DR. COLL!NS: I do not have a precise figure, but I believe we had to pay out something. It is not all finished yet, there are still figures to be done. The hon member, T am sure, is very interested in the fishery, as is the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

W. Carter), and we can make sure that these figures are supplied. But, undoubtedly, our final payout will be over $1 million for the number of guarantees we have had to give over the years to Ocean Harvesters to try to retain that operation up there and not lose the quota, and also to retain as much employment over there as we could over the years. I will definitely undertake to get those figures. L3243 June 17 , 1986 Vol XL MR. TULK : The other question was on Easteel. Will you be signing their guarantee after the June 30th. one expires? DR. COLLINS: We will extend the guarantee as long as it is required.

As I say, Easteel seems to be pulling out of ' its difficulties, so we do not have as much concern there as we had some .time aKP· On motion, resolution, carried. Motion, that the Committee · report having passed a resolution and a bill consequent thereto, carried~ MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion 6, Bill No. 31. Resolution That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend the Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957, to provide for the ·guarantee of the repayment of loans made to, and the advance of loans to certain Local Authorities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, this again is · much like the previous resolution in that we had to enter into guarantees with the banks to allow various municipal projects to go ahead, and now a bill has to be brought in to ratify these guarantees. There is a long list of the guarantees in the bill, attached to the resolution. Hon. members know that water and sewer guarantees are for a twenty year period,

whereas the paving guarantees - there are a smaller No. 55 R3243

number for paving purposes - are ten year guarantees. The last time . we passed a Local Authority Guarantee Act, I think, was in 1983, so that is why there is such a long list this time. We are picking up the guarantees that have been entered into since that time. Mr. Chairman, with those remarks I move the resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution carry? MR. GILBERT: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Burgee - Bay d' Espoir. MR. GILBERT: As the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) just said, this is a Bill to Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act.

It goes back some years, so when we look at it we cannot really be sure as to how the list was made up, was it political or was it on need. Anytime we have to pass a bill such as this, and we find it concerns the Department of Municipal Affairs, and it has to do with guaranteed. loans, we know that the situation has deteriorated, that a pork barrelling system is being used when they give out this money. We saw an example of it here this afternoon, when the minister was not in the House and I asked the Premier about the list.

A short time ago, the Minister of Municipal Affairs gave us a partial list of the funding he was going to provide for communities throughout the Province and he made a promise at that time that he would bring in the remainder at a later date. We heard the Premier this afternoon say that it was certainly done according to L3244 June 17, 1986 Vol XL need, that a lot of work had gone into it, and th~ngs like that.

Now, as I see it, the serious part about the guaranteeing of funds by the Department of Municipal Affairs. the outright grants, is that there is an awful suspicion out there, and a great amount of doubt, as to how this money is dispensed, how it is really given out. We know the federation, in their latest brief to the Department of Municipal Affairs, say that the towns in Newfoundland are supposed to provide the department with a five year plan for capital works and the like, yet there is no provision that funds will be available to provide the capital works on a regular basis.

So it is hard for them to provide a five year plan if there is no provision made to ensure that funding is going to be available. They have asked that people from the communities in Newfoundland get together with the department when this list is being compiled and the grants given, to see that it is done on need rather than on political pork barrelling, which is the situation that we have in Newfoundland today.

The House is now closing and we find that . three-quarters of the money we approved in the estimates for grants to municipalities throughout the Island are not dispensed at this point, and the reason for it seems to be that the minister wants to wait until the House is closed so that he can then announce the list without any opposition, without anyone questioning his pork barrelling, giving this to the Tory districts. When the minister announced his last list in the House, there was great shouting and crying every time there was something announced for a Liberal district. The thing we are No. 55 R3244

forgetting is that the money which comes from this, in most cases, comes from taxes which are collected all over Newfoundland. All we ask is that a fair proportion of this money go back into every district in Newfoundland. Because it is not the transfer payments that this money comes from, this comes from the 12 per cent sales tax that everybody pays in Newfoundland and it is paid on an equal basis.

And in districts like my district, the district of Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir, Burgeo is a primary producer and produces a lot of revenue for Newfoundland because of the fish plants that are in Burgeo and Ramea and in the communities of Francois, Grey River and McCallum, which are fishing communities. And, you know, it is a little unfair when we find that in this type of situation, the money is given on a political rather than on a need basis. The other point I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that these loans and grants go back to 1983 and now we are asked to approve them very quickly this afternoon.

I think it should be done on an annual basis and I think the list should be made up, as the Federation suggests, with co-operation from the Federation and the Department of Municipal Affairs, and made up on the basis of need rather than political pork barrelling. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening) : Shall the resolution carry? MR. DOYLE: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. L3245 June 17, 1986 Vol XL MR. DOYLE: Mr. Chairman, just to respond briefly to some of the points that have been raised by the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Gilbert) as to the allocation of municipal capital works money, I have to point out to him, as I have on a number· of occasions, that there is really no pork barrelling done within the Department of Municipal Affairs, and I can only speak for the time period that I have been there . Insofar as allocation for funding is concerned, funding is distributed on a priority basis and there are an awful lot ~f things taken into account when you are distributing that funding, namely, environmental and health reasons, cost-effectiveness with respect to the projects and what have you.

I think the bon. gentleman will find that the $11.5 million that was allocated just recently certainly does not reflect any pork barrelling when you take into account the fact that $800,000 has been approved for Gander, $500,000 for Fogo; money has been approved for Tilting and Daniel's Harbour, Norris Point, Labrador City and a number of other areas that are represented by gentlemen opposite. · So it is certainly not pork barrelling.

It has to be pointed out, as well, that we are in the unfortunate position of having $180 million worth of requests and only $25 million to $30 million of a capital programme to address these requests. When you are dealing with such massive numbers of requests that come from municipalities on a daily basis, I can easily see how bon. gentlemen opposite would think that there was some pork barrelling taking No. 55 R3245

place, but there certainly is not. With respect to the list the han. gentleman mentions, I think we have co-operated with him on a number of occasions, providing all the information that they have requested. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have been waiting for this opportunity. About a month or so ago, I entered some petitions on behalf of municipalities which do not agree with the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and they were ruled out of order because they were, quite appropriately, very saucy.

But since this is debate in Committee, I am going to table the petitions I have here just to make sure that the Minister of Municipal Affairs has a chance to look at them and, in his good time, can reply to them. I will just list them. They are basically from the mayors and councils of eighteen municipalities in the Province who have returned a letter to me indicating that they are certainly concerned with the distribution of municipal grants in the past. I am not presenting a petition, but I will read it into the record.

It says, "We, the undersigned municipal counsellors, petition the Minister of Municipal Affairs to stop distributing loans for water and sewerage and paving on the basis of political patronage and start distributing them on the basis of need." They are in turn: The mayor and L3246 June 17 , 1986 Vol XL counsellors of Port au Choix; Th.e community council of Rencontre East; The council of Newville - AN HON. MEMBER: That is not in order. MR. FENWICK: I am tabling them. This is perfectly in order. The community of Whiteway; The town of Change Islands; The community council of Hampden; - MR.

CHAIRMAN (Woodford): Order, please! MR. FENWICK: I am allowed to table the things, am I not? MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you speaking to the resolution? MR. FENWICK: Oh, yes, very much so. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the . bon. member is presenting a petition here. MR. FENWICK: Oh, no, I am not presenting petitions, I am just tabling them. It is information pertaining to the distributipn of water and sewer. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, just table it and speak to the resolution. MR. FENWICK: Yes, I am.

There is L'Anse au Clair; Northern Arm; - I am almost finished anyway - Goose Cove in White Bay; Bay View; Grand La Pierre; Gander Bay South; The town council of St. Thomas; Seldom; and the community of Parsons Pond. MR. TULK: A point of order, Kr. Speaker. No. 55 R3246

MR. SPEAKER: .A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: It is not a matter of whether you agree or disagree with the member presenting petitions, it is a matter of are we now going to be allowed in Commit tee to stand up, give the subject matter of a whole bulk of petitions and then present them to the House. I think we need a ruling on this, quite frankly. If it is in order fine and dandy, we will use it. MR. FENWICK: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CH AIRMAN : To that point of order, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWIC K: I am not presenting them as petitions.

They are clearly out of order as petitions. But they are not, they are being tabled for the minister's information. I think, on those grounds, they are perfectly acceptable, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! To that point of order, hon. members must be reminded that you can read out any document as long as it is tabled in the House. There is no point of order. The hon. member can continue to speak to the resolution. MR. FENWICK: Just to wind it up, Mr. Speaker, I am going to give the House a real treat today. I have written a song for the occasion. AN HON. MEMBER: No singing.

L3247 June 17, 1986 Vol XL MR. FENWICK: I understand the present Speaker sang his first speech in the House and, under that very august precedent, I think I can continue on with this. MR. MATTHEWS: There is a precedent against singing. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: Well, Mr. Speaker, if there is a precedent against singing, when you hear my singing you will find that it is probably not singing, so it will probably be ruled in order on that basis. Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to in traduce it because, as the minister was defending the distribution of water and sewerage grants, which is the bill we are talking about here, he indicated that they were done in accordance with objective criteria and so on. Of course, members of the official Opposition have always maintained that it has been done on a patronage basis and that there is a list being constructed. When the word "list• came up, it reminded me of that very popular Christmas song, Santa Clause Is Corning To Town. So if anyone wants to sing along, those are the words to it.

Wait until I get my breath here now. It goes like this: He is making a list. /He is checking it twice./He is going to find out whose Tory or not. /Norman Doyle's dispensing patronage. /He sees you when your campaigning. I - I told you the singing is not great, that we have to watch it - He knows which way you voted. /He knows if you are a Tory or not so be a Tory No. 55 R3247

for pavement's sake ./You'd better watch out./You'd better not apply./He'll not pave your route./I'll tell you why./Norman Doyle's dispensing patronage. That, Mr. Speaker, is my comment on the bill. MR. BARRY: Is there a doctor in the House? MR. FENWICK: I never said it was good. On motion, resolution carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the resolution and a bill consequent thereto, carried. MR. MARSHALL: Order 7, Bill No. 49. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Woodford): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, I have message from His Lieutentant-Governor. received a Honour the MR. CHAIRMAN: Please rise for a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. "I, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Newfoundland, transmit supplementary estimates of sums required for the Public Service of the Province for the year ending 31st. day of March 1986, by way of supplementary supply and in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution Act, 1867, I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly. (sgd)--------------------- L3248 W.

Anthony Paddon, Lieu tenant-Governor. •• June 17, 1986 Vol XL Resolution That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1986, the sum of fifty-two million five hundred and thirty-six thousand four hundred dollars ($52,536,400). DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, this bill that will follow on from that resolution actually ratifies the various tabled warrants.

The warrants that were Supplementary Supply for the last fiscal year have already been tabled, the members of the Committee know all about them, there is nothing strange, weird, or wonderful about them, so I move the resolution. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I do not know what would happen - well, I know parliamentarily - if we could defeat the government on this bill the money has long since been spent, I expect. Mr.

Chairman, again we want to assert, we want to emphasize as dramatically as we can, our dissatisfaction with the public fiscal policy of the government of this Province. Again we reiterate the numbers of times that we have suggested to this government No. 55 R3248

certain tax measures that would be beneficial to the people of this Province and beneficial to the government. However, in this particular measure, Mr. Chairman, we want to again talk about the issuing of · these Special Warrants for monies for expenditures outside of the House of Assembly not approved by this parliament, and we disagreed with that. We know that there are times that it has to be done~ but this government has made a mockery of parliament by the issuing of Special Warrants. What was it?

Only two or three months ago $750 million that this government got through issuing of a Special Warrant when the House could have been in session and I expect, Mr. Chairman, that is an unprecedented move in any parliament in the British Commonwealth. It is an unprecedented move that a government would get such huge amounts of money, $750 million, certainly the largest by any comparison, by any comparable figures that ever we have had issued by Special Warrants in this Province. Now we have the Minister of Finance being able to issue warrants for in excess of $52 million. Mr.

Chairman, since we have mentioned the Public Service I only hope that the minister certainly softened his attitude, and the entire government's, towards the public servants of this Province, particularly towards those who are presently negotiating to try to get labour contracts ironed out and negotiated. And I would hope that over the next few weeks that the Minister of Finance will bring whatever pressure he can to bear upon the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard) and the President of Treasury Board (Mr.

Marshall) to L3249 June 17, 1986 Vol XL see that we get the NAPE people back to the bargaining table and see if we cannot have that matter resolved in the next few weeks.

We are going to get into nice weather now, and maybe everybody will be of a temperament, maybe they will be a little more inclined to come back to the bargaining table, so we hope that the Minister of Finance and the President of Treasury Board and the Minister of Labour will do all in their power to see that we can get, particularly the General Service and the people who have been experiencing difficulty with negotiating with the government over the past few months, we hope now with the good weather coming maybe there is something in the air, maybe there is something in the atmosphere, something that will certainly soften up the attitude of government and get these people back to the bargaining table and display a sensitive attitude, an attitude of empathy and sympathy towards their public servants, and get these labour disputes resolved during the good weather of June, July and August.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Motion that the Committee report having passed a resolution and a bill consequent thereo, carried. Motion that the Committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the member for Humber Valley. MR. WOODFORD: No. 55 R3249

Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered the matters to them referred and has directed me to report Bill Nos. 28, 33, 30, 31 and 49 without amendment and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted. Committee ordered to sit again presently by leave. On --1!\otion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1978 And. ' The Tobacco Tax Act, 1986," read a first, second and third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Retail Sales Tax Act, 1978," read a first, second and third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Loan And Guarantee Act, 195 7," read a first, second and third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957'," read a first, second and third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March, 1986 And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service," read a first, second and third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. On motion that the House resolve inself 'into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker, left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: L3250 June 17, 1986 Vol XL Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Order 12 Bill No. 40. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR.

TULK: The other evening in speaking to this Bill, I think it was the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) who answered a question in whicl:l he pointed out to me that . a certain gentleman by the name of Mr. White, who is a partner, I believe in the Government House Leader's law firm, when he was making representation on behalf of certain of his clients, Fairview Investments and, I believe, Acharya in 1984, when he · was carrying correspondence, then Chairman on that he of the certain was not Board of Regents at Memorial University.

In actual fact, on checking, and the Government House Leader might want to answer because the Minister of Finance is busy, I find out that the gentleman in question, Mr. White became the Chairman of the Board of Regents in October of 1982, some two years before he was making that representation on behalf of clients for the release of land which obviously Memorial University would have an interest in keeping under the purview of the Pippy Park Commission. Now, there is an obvious conflict where the Chairman of the Board of Regents makes representation, acts in a law firm that is acting for such clients.

And, of course, there is another build in conflict because that same lawyer is a partner of the Government House Leader which deals with the Pippy Park Commission. There are all No. 55 R3250

kinds of entanglements that go on that would suggest that there are all kinds of conflicts of interest. As I said, the Minister of Finance the other evening stood ·and said that Mr. Charlie White was not the Chairman of the Board of Regents at the time, when in actual fact he became Chairman of the Board of Regents in October, 1982, and the correspondence concerning Fairview Investments and Acharya was written in October. I do not have the exact letters here from him, but I can get them for the minister if he wants them because they are in my file downstairs.

The exact letters that we are talking about were written in October, 1984 so perhaps somebody might like to clear up just how it is that you can have the Chairman of · the Board of Regents acting on behalf of the law firm of Marshall, White, Ottenheimer and Green while at the same time he is the Chairman of the Board of Regents and obviously the university would have an interest in seeing that that land was kept intact as part of the Pippy Park Commission.

Perhaps the Premier might like td answer just how that fits in with his conflict of interest guidelines, since in actual fact there is so obviously a conflict there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, possibly the han member is a bit uncertain of the facts here so I am going to take that as the reason ·he raised the question and I am going to give him the facts. Mr. White is a lawyer of long standing in this city.

He has been acting for the particular people involved in this unfortunate incident, and in retrospect it was most L3251 June 17, 1986 Vol XL unfortunate, since his clients should never have been put in this position, and he should never have had to go to bat for them. He has been acting for these clients for many, many, many years. Now these clients had their land taken away from them and put into the park sometime in early 1981 and it was from early 1981 that, on behalf of his clients, Mr. White made repeated representations to the Pippy 'Park Commission to have some resolution to the problem.

The problem was this: I have paid for my land. You have taken the land and put it into the park. Let me develop it or pay me for it. It is a totally and utterly defensible and reasonable proposition for anyone to take where they have laid out some good money for something. No one lays out good money and then says I cannot do anything with the property I bought. So the client says, 'Pay me for it, now that you have taken my land; or if you do not pay me for it, let me develop it; and if you do not let me develop it, give it back to me.' In other words, take it out of the park. Mr.

White made representation on the part of his clients repeatedly throughout 1981 and throughout 1982. Now if he became Chairman of the Board of Regents sometime after that, he was not obviously going to now change his efforts on the part of his clients. It was a continuing effort that started back long before he was Chairman of the Board of Regents. The fact that government ultimately decided that they could not afford to pay for this land, in other words, could not afford to give the several millions of dollars to the Pippy