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April 24, 2013

40th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2013-Apr-24 (PDF)

L030 - Wed 24 Apr 2013 / Mer 24 avr 2013

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 24 April 2013 Mercredi 24 avril 2013

WEARING OF PINS

ORDERS OF THE DAY

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

CO-OPERATIVES STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

LES COOPÉRATIVES DE LOGEMENT

SANS BUT LUCRATIF

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

MANUFACTURING JOBS

MANUFACTURING JOBS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

POWER PLANTS

POWER PLANTS

CANCER TREATMENT

MINING INDUSTRY

POWER PLANTS

HEALTH CARE

HOSPITAL FUNDING

POWER PLANTS

ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH

RETIREMENT HOMES

POWER PLANTS

WINTER HIGHWAY MAINTENANCE

VISITOR

ONTARIO BUDGET

DECORUM IN CHAMBER

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

WORLD MENINGITIS DAY

ORGAN DONATION

ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

FLOODING IN BANCROFT

WALLY MOLE

WORLD MENINGITIS DAY

ROBOTICS TEAM

HEALTH CARE

COMMUNITY AWARDS

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

BIRTHPLACE OF THE NATIONAL FLAG

OF CANADA ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LE BERCEAU

DU DRAPEAU NATIONAL DU CANADA

MENINGITIS AWARENESS DAY

ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LE JOUR

DE LA SENSIBILISATION

À LA MÉNINGITE

PETITIONS

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

SERVICES FOR THE

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

AGRI-FOOD INDUSTRY

ALGONQUIN LAND CLAIM

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

INDUSTRIE AGROALIMENTAIRE

FISHING REGULATIONS

DOG OWNERSHIP

FAMILY CAREGIVER LEAVE

WORKPLACE INSURANCE

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES

ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES

SERVICES FOR THE

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

ORDERS OF THE DAY

SECURITY FOR COURTS, ELECTRICITY

GENERATING FACILITIES

AND NUCLEAR FACILITIES ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR

LA SÉCURITÉ DES TRIBUNAUX,

DES CENTRALES ÉLECTRIQUES

ET DES INSTALLATIONS NUCLÉAIRES

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE

ABORIGINAL PROGRAMS

AND SERVICES

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

WEARING OF PINS

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: Point of order, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): A point of order from the minister.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: I believe we have unanimous consent that all members be permitted to wear daffodil pins today in recognition of Canadian Cancer Society Daffodil Month.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The minister has asked for unanimous consent to wear daffodil pins. Are we agreed? Agreed.

Orders of the day.

Hon. John Gerretsen: Good morning, Speaker and members. The government will not be calling order G36 but rather government order G14.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

CO-OPERATIVES STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

LES COOPÉRATIVES DE LOGEMENT

SANS BUT LUCRATIF

Resuming the debate adjourned on April 15, 2013, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 14,

An Act to amend the Co-operative Corporations Act and the Residential Tenancies Act, 2006 in respect of non-profit housing co-operatives and to make consequential amendments to other Acts / Projet de loi 14, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les sociétés coopératives et la Loi de 2006 sur la location à usage d’habitation en ce qui concerne les coopératives de logement sans but lucratif et apportant des modifications corrélatives à d’autres lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. Jim Wilson: I rise to participate in the debate about Bill 14, the Non-profit Housing Co-operatives Statute Law Amendment Act, 2013, which is yet another bill that has been revived by the Liberals after their similar legislation, Bill 65, died with prorogation. While I’m pleased to engage in this debate here today, it again comes with apprehension, as this bill would have been enacted into law by now if the Premier and the Liberal government hadn’t decided to prorogue Parliament and put their party’s interests ahead of what is best for Ontario. The Liberals can say this is an important bill to them, Mr.

Speaker, but actions speak louder than words, and they’ve proven that it’s not as important as, say, shuttering the Legislature for four months to avoid a contempt motion and find a new leader, a rather selfish act in the history of this province.

The fact of the matter, to us anyway, is that this is indeed an important issue that shouldn’t have to be continually reintroduced, as there are 550 non-profit co-operatives in Ontario—many in my riding—that provide housing for over 125,000 Ontarians. It’s an issue that, on a positive note, as we’ve seen from past debate, seemed to garner support from all three parties. It’s a shame it has taken this long to go through the parliamentary process, but I’m certainly pleased that it’s been reintroduced and am hopeful that it may soon become law.

Along with my colleagues, I’m generally supportive of this bill and its main intention to move co-operative tenure dispute cases from the courts to the Landlord and Tenant Board. This is where all other housing disputes are settled and, to me, makes sense.

There is one new aspect of the legislation that I’m concerned about, that I want to touch on in a few moments. But for now, let me explain why I believe this legislation is important. Similar to all other landlord and tenant disputes, the proposed provisions in this legislation are the same provisions that all other landlords in the province already have, and that we’ve agreed, are fair to evict a tenant. Such disputes might include: rent arrears, late payment of rent, wilful damage and illegal activity by tenants or interfering with other tenants’ enjoyment of property and so on.

Second, the new provisions would also streamline the resolution process by allowing co-ops to apply directly to the board to terminate a former member’s occupancy of a member unit and evict under a few straightforward circumstances. Such conditions might include, for instance, where the former member has terminated his or her membership and occupancy rights; where the former member’s membership and occupancy rights have expired as of a predetermined date; and where the former member is a post-secondary student living in a student housing co-operative and has given notice of termination.

As I’m sure most would agree, these are all basic circumstances that, under our current system, would require going to court and a great deal of time and money. This legislation would reduce the load of these cases and ease the burden on our court system that is not only costly but also clogs up the system.

This brings me to a third reason this legislation is important, and it has to do with legal costs incurred by co-op members each year. The average cost of resolving co-op disputes in court is somewhere between $3,000 to $5,000 per case, and with, on average, 300 cases heard each year, it puts court costs to co-op members upwards of $1 million annually. It’s a lot of money considering there is a more affordable option to settle these disputes, and it’s money that, instead of wasting, we could be putting toward the housing system.

These are all benefits of Bill 14 and its predecessor Bill 65 that, looking to the past debate, seemed to garner support from all three parties, as I’ve said, which is certainly a feat, considering the Liberal government’s history in this minority Legislature. Considering the past support for Bill 65, to ensure its swift resolution, you would think the government would keep its successor, Bill 14, the same in order to not rock the boat, as we say.

You would think that, Mr. Speaker, but that’s not the case. Bill 14 contains an amendment clause that gives the Landlord and Tenant Board the power to waive a $45 filing fee for low-income tenants. From my perspective, there was no reason to change anything in Bill 65 except if they wanted to, again, just rock the boat. There was no one advocating for the change—no stakeholders, no associations, no one except this Liberal government—and it’s incredibly disturbing that a one-sided amendment to the Landlord and Tenant Board would even be considered without widespread consultation.

We don’t know the cost of this decision. In a briefing, the ministry could not reveal who will qualify for the waived fee. The fear now is that it will open the floodgates for disgruntled landlords or tenants to take every minor dispute to the Landlord and Tenant Board, causing further delay in a system that is already horrendously backlogged, not to mention the fact that the fee is a cost-recovery mechanism for the board’s operations, which means Ontario taxpayers will be called to subsidize revenue shortfalls.

Instead of erring on the side of caution to ensure this important issue is passed in the Legislature, the Premier has taken what should have been a non-partisan bill and made it somewhat political by putting this fee in. From a Premier who prides herself on being different than Dalton McGuinty and repeatedly talking about how much she believes in co-operation, it’s certainly strange that she would include what can only be described as a poison pill in legislation that previously had all-party support. In fact, it doesn’t make sense. Again, we had co-operation on this bill before prorogation, and now we get an amendment thrown in out of left field.

This is nothing but yet another attempt by the McGuinty-Wynne Liberal government to wedge issues and play conniving political games on the backs of taxpayers. It’s 100% unacceptable behaviour, but not necessarily surprising coming from a government that prorogued the Legislature for political gain, cancelled power plants days before the 2011 election to save Liberal seats and are responsible for doubling our $411-billion debt and $10-billion deficit.

The $45 filing fee is completely unrelated and an unnecessary amendment to this legislation that almost defeats the purpose of the bill itself. In essence, we would be moving the cases from one backlogged court system and creating another backlogged system.

While I would like to affirm my belief that the Landlord and Tenant Board is a better option for these disputes—less costly, more efficient and so on—since the Premier seems to have opened the debate about the problems at the Landlord and Tenant Board, it reminds me of a number of other concerns that I have heard from constituents that perhaps should be reviewed.

In one letter I received from a constituent from Collingwood, you can almost feel his frustration. He wrote:

“Dear Mr. Wilson:

“I am writing with concerns about the Landlord and Tenant Act. The rules, the processes, the judgments, do not serve the landlords, they serve the tenants. I am a landlord and have an extremely difficult tenant who runs the show at my property which is located in Collingwood. He parks where he wants, he harasses other tenants. He routinely uses foul and offensive language. He is familiar with the Landlord and Tenant Act, and realizes that it is an extremely difficult process and next to impossible, to have him removed.

He has chased many good tenants from my property, because they feel hassled, and they decided to move. He is an alcoholic, who is making life as a tenant and a landlord miserable.

“This is my property (he was there when I bought it) and he runs the show around there with the aid of legislation which is too favourable toward tenants’ rights.

“The system is failing me and I have no control over my property.”

Similar concerns were raised in a recent missive out of the Federation of Rental Housing Providers of Ontario in a 2011 report entitled Justice Denied: Ontario’s Broken Rent Dispute Process:

“Ontario’s rent dispute process is broken.... It is excessively long, and is unjust to landlords. It typically takes 90 days in Ontario for a dispute to be finally resolved, and costs the landlord about $5,200, not including administrative costs, lost time and productivity. That’s only the typical process.

“If a ‘professional tenant’ is involved, he or she uses requests for internal board reviews and appeals to the Superior Court to add even more delays; these tenants easily use Ontario’s system to bilk landlords of up to one year’s rent, suffer no consequences, and cause severe financial and emotional distress....

“Ontario’s outdated rent dispute process needs to be modernized. Most other jurisdictions in Canada have fair and efficient rent dispute processes in place, proving an efficient system is achievable. In the western provinces, the process takes anywhere from one fifth to one third the time it takes in Ontario.

“The broken system is also bad for tenants. For a number of tenants, the delays in the system only make matters worse for them, leading them to develop large arrears which they can’t rectify, and ultimately affecting their credit rating and their future.”

You see, if you want to discuss it, there are obvious problems with the Landlord and Tenant Board. We all know that. But if we look at changes, they should be done in a fair and transparent way that allows all parties, both tenants and landlords, to have input. The government’s job is to do what is in the best interest of all Ontarians, not just of bureaucrats working under the leadership of an unelected Premier and an unstable minority government.

While I for now support this legislation, since the Premier opened the debate, I would like to urge her to consider province-wide hearings on reform of the Landlord and Tenant Board so we can best determine in a fair and transparent way for all involved what is working and what is not.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Hon. John Gerretsen: I listened quite intently to what the member had to say and couldn’t disagree with him more. I think the Landlord and Tenant Board works extremely well. We made some significant changes about four or five years ago that basically put both landlords and tenants in an equal position, so that if there are issues to be decided by the board on whether the landlord is due his rent or whether the tenant has legitimate issues with respect to repairs and things like that, it would all be done in one hearing.

Prior to that, there had to be two separate hearings, and there were all sorts of questions raised in the House for a number of years. It’s kind of interesting that since the change was made to have all issues dealt with at the same time, there has not been one question in this House in the last six years about the operation of the Landlord and Tenant Board.

With respect to the potential waiver of fees, rules are to be set by the board, and what we’re proposing is absolutely no different from the rules that are already in effect with respect to many other administrative tribunals, such as the Ontario Municipal Board. So it is just a red herring. If the Tories support the co-ops having the right to use the board, like they did last year, they should vote for it. Let’s get it to committee, and let’s iron out whatever the differences may be. But to call for province-wide hearings is just a red herring.

We’re here to do the people’s business. Let’s get on with it. Let’s stop playing games. This bill has now been in this House for 13 hours of debate. It’s a little bit like the local food bill, which has been here for about 20 hours of debate. These are good pieces of legislation for the people of Ontario. So stop filibustering every bill that comes here. Let’s get to work, get it to committee and get it done. Other than that, have a great day, folks.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. John O’Toole: The member from Simcoe–Grey, I believe, made the point that needs to be made on Bill 14 with respect to there’s probably good and bad.

I think resolving disputes is really what this bill attempts to do, and I think the current experience I have in my riding with the Landlord and Tenant Board seems to have a bias built into it in terms of the position going in. At least that’s the perception. I would say anything you can do to clarify some mechanism to resolve disputes without a bias, to look at the facts—I know most members would know from any party that the tenant can be exceptionally abusive to a landlord.

In my case, I’m thinking of families that have retired and their income source has been diversified such that they probably own a second home or a cottage that they’re deciding to rent. Then they’ve got a problem tenant and the tenant knows the rules or the ropes, and pretty soon the dispute amounts to not paying the rent, trashing the property, and the landlord, in this case a retired couple, is left holding the bag. There are other occasions when there are arguments to be made, I’m sure, of landlords that are perhaps abusive, as well.

So I think we need to have fairness in any dispute mechanism, and I think the experience that most MPPs, if they’re paying attention—we would like to make and streamline the process. The option is, of course, to go to the courts. To go to the courts is going to be an unfair and unbalanced relationship as well.

We have to make sure there’s fairness, and I don’t see that specifically in the rules here. I’d like to see a little more clarity in the rules of the balance that’s going to be in the hearing itself.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Jonah Schein: Families in my community are waiting years—up to 20 years, almost—for affordable housing. I’ve been waiting for this debate to come to an end for it seems like 20 years, and the truth is we’ve been waiting for affordable housing to be built for going on decades now. So I’m actually going to stop speaking right now. We need less talk in this chamber and more action in this province on housing.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: It’s a pleasure to rise in support of the comments of my colleague from Simcoe–Grey. He has only brought to this chamber what we have heard in terms of criticisms and concerns of this piece of legislation. To hear the Attorney General suggest that we are filibustering when we simply want to debate the issues, I think, is going a bit too far. This is a chamber of debate, a chamber of ideas—

Interjection.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: And you can try to shout me down, as you always do, Minister of Transportation, but I’m going to continue to speak. Because as I like to point out, my colleague from Simcoe–Grey has been in this esteemed chamber, both in the opposition as well as in the cabinet, and he has a great deal of experience in speaking about legislation. He is our House leader. He brought forward, I think, some very valuable concerns, concerns that have been raised by landlords and others across the province, and I think it is legitimate debate.

Our party, of course—the Progressive Conservative Party—will be putting up a number of speakers today on Bill 14, the non-profit housing co-operatives, because we feel that there needs to be more conversation, as, of course, is the tag line of the new Premier. She likes to talk about conversations, she likes to talk about discussions, and she likes to talk about process. Well, when this side of the House decides it wants to engage in conversation, discussion and talk about the process, they want to obstruct us in doing so.

But I must say to my colleague from Simcoe–Grey, I agree with your comments. I agree with your concerns. I think that you’ve done a service not only to your constituents but to the stakeholders involved in this process. I think that it is very legitimate and valid for you to be having this conversation, and I do appreciate the opportunity that we are having this debate at this present moment.

Again, I want to talk about—in the 10 seconds I have left—the fact that this government will only want to talk about discussion and process and conversations when it suits them. But when this side of the assembly wants to debate an issue, they want to shut it down.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Simcoe–Grey has two minutes.

Mr. Jim Wilson: I thank my colleagues who spoke. I say to the Attorney General and the Liberals: You’re the first government—maybe you don’t know this because you’ve had a majority for nine years—not to take bills around the province. On almost every bill, whether it was a Mike Harris or Ernie Eves government, and for many, many governments before that, we always went to the four corners. We went somewhere in the north, usually Sudbury or Thunder Bay. We always went to the southwest, either London or Windsor. We always went to Ottawa or Kingston, and we had hearings in Toronto.

That was the norm on almost every legislation—and by the way, it was faster than the process we’re in now, because it took four days, usually, on the road and usually a couple of days in Toronto. We would have it done in a week or a week and a half, in committee.

Your arrogant approach to governing, by trying to shut this place down—in fact, you did, for the first time in history. We had a leadership, I can remember, between Ernie and Mike. We took the weekend to do it, and we brought Parliament back on the Monday, like we were supposed to. You selfish people, you closed it down. You run around to the interest groups and say—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): You might want to sit down.

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Well, the member from Simcoe–Grey, I was standing for at least 15 seconds. You ignored me totally, thank you very much. Secondly, I suggest you stick to the agenda; you were wandering a bit. Thank you.

Hon. John Gerretsen: On a point of order, Speaker: Mike Harris used to say that the consultation took place during the election time. That’s what he said—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): That’s not a point of order—

Hon. John Gerretsen: —about consultation.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Ms. Sylvia Jones: It’s an honour to rise this morning on behalf of the residents of Dufferin–Caledon to discuss Bill 14,

An Act to amend the Co-operative Corporations Act and the Residential Tenancies Act, 2006 in respect of non-profit housing co-operatives and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

Excluding the lengthy title, there are certain aspects of Bill 14 that I am supportive of. In fact, I don’t think it’s by any means a stretch to say that certain aspects of Bill 14 not only have all-party support in this House, but have had all-party support for quite some time. I say this because in the last session, the Liberal government introduced a bill—Bill 65, of course—which was also generally well-received by all parties. Bill 65 was, for all intents and purposes, the same bill as Bill 14. This is with the exception of one particular measure that has been added to Bill 14, but I will touch on that momentarily.

First, I just want to summarize how we’ve gotten to this point, and I think it’s a useful exercise. I say this because lately, when I’ve been reviewing government legislation, I get a déjà vu feeling. I get that feeling because a great deal of the government’s legislation was already introduced in the last session. Bill 14 is an example of this because, as I mentioned, Bill 65 in the previous session was almost the identical bill.

As I was saying, Bill 65 was introduced in April of last year—actually, it was April 16, so over a full year ago. At that time, a year ago, our critic for municipal affairs and housing—who does an excellent job, I might add—the member for Leeds–Grenville, stood up in this chamber and outright announced that not only would the official opposition be supporting Bill 65, but also pointed out that we have been calling for its reforms for some time.

On its face, this was a great situation. It was a great situation because, as you know, Speaker, things have been somewhat toxic in this place under this particular government, what with the Ornge scandal and the gas plant scandal, contempt proceedings—well, you get the picture. In light of all that, I think it’s great that there was some legislation that we could all agree on, something that all parties agreed was good for Ontarians and was a well-needed reform.

The thing is, though, like a lot of good legislation that has been proposed, the Liberal government totally wiped out Bill 65 when the former Premier prorogued the Legislature last fall. This is a very important point, I feel, because while I anticipate Bill 14 will be passed on to committee for some needed amendments, I cannot help but point out that Bill 65 should already be law.

I can’t help but get frustrated when I hear the respective ministers stand up here in the chamber or go out in front of the television cameras and talk about how critical their bills are and how important it is that they must be passed, because the reality is a lot of these bills could already be law if their government hadn’t prorogued the Legislature last fall. Even if you’re going to prorogue, there is an opportunity for bills to be carried over. We all know how that system works. That could have happened with Bill 65 as well.

That’s why it’s so astonishing that members of the party opposite have the audacity to stand in this chamber, as they have previously, and accuse members of the opposition of stalling legislation through debate. It was their party that wiped out all that we had achieved with Bill 65, and you had to restart the whole process. That’s the abbreviated version of how we got here today, debating Bill 14.

I want to focus on two points of Bill 14 specifically. One was contained in Bill 65 and, I believe, supported by all parties. The other is a new aspect of Bill 14 that was not in Bill 65. It’s the second point, the new one, that I have a slight problem with.

But for now I want to discuss the good aspect of Bill 14, and that is the transferring of tenure disputes from the court system to the Landlord and Tenant Board. This is a good move, it’s a practical move and it makes sense. All of the disputes regarding housing, including things like rent arrears, late payment of rent, wilful damage and illegal activities by tenants etc. are settled at the Landlord and Tenant Board, so it only makes sense to have a uniform approach and have everything settled at the same body.

I will point out that the Landlord and Tenant Board is not without problems of its own. However, from a streamlining point of view, this transfer makes sense. This is because, as we all know, the court system itself has its issues with backlogs, not to mention costs. Removing tenure disputes from the courts will thus not only help relieve some of the pressures on our court system but also help save co-op members a great deal of money.

Resolving these disputes in the courts costs co-op members approximately $1 million in unnecessary legal costs every single year, and with these disputes contributing to the court backlog I mentioned, it costs taxpayers too, because of the precious court resources that are being used on these cases. On this we can agree, and have agreed.

I can’t help but point out, Speaker, at $1 million a year in costs to co-op members having to go through the courts, that one could potentially argue this government’s inaction and self-serving priorities have indirectly contributed to that penalizing cost because, as I mentioned earlier, Bill 14’s original version, Bill 65, was introduced a year ago. Yet here we are a year later, another $1 million later in legal costs to co-op members, another year later of disputes backlogging our court system, and still we’re talking about the same issue—and it’s the one we agree on.

So again, we have an example of the party opposite’s plain, basic inability to effectively manage our province’s government.

As our leader, Tim Hudak, pointed out yesterday during question period, every day, when a newborn child comes into this world in Ontario, they’re immediately burdened with a $20,000 share of the provincial debt. That’s due to the financial and managerial incompetence of the Liberal government, and it’s a direction that we in the official opposition vehemently disagree with.

But back to Bill 14. As I was saying, this reform of transferring the tenure disputes to the Landlord and Tenant Board is something we can all agree on. Great. So let’s get it passed, right? Not so fast. You see, there is a new aspect to Bill 14 that was not in Bill 65, and this is the notion that the Landlord and Tenant Board should have the power to waive the $45 filing fee for low-income tenants.

Like a lot of things this government says, it sounds good but, upon closer inspection, doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny. You see, the ministry couldn’t say just who would qualify as a low-income tenant. Alternatively, this low-income status will be determined on a case-by-case basis.

This is problematic, I feel, for a couple of reasons. Chief among them is that the filing fee represents a cost-recovery mechanism for the Landlord and Tenant Board’s operation. If we start waiving the fee, my question to the minister would be, where will that money come from?

The money to operate the board is going to have to come from somewhere, particularly with the new responsibility of resolving tenure disputes, as I’ve discussed. As the transfer of these dispute resolutions will lead to a higher caseload for the Landlord and Tenant Board, it stands to reason that the board may also see a proportionally higher operating cost as well. Otherwise, they will be dealing with backlogs. So that’s why I don’t think it’s prudent to waive a primary source of the board’s resources.

The other problem I see with waiving the fee is that it risks seeing a sharp increase in complaints to the Landlord and Tenant Board. This is because, with the possibility of not having to pay a fee, there would appear to be no reason whatsoever not to file a complaint, regardless of its credibility or severity. And as I mentioned briefly before, the Landlord and Tenant Board is not without its problems; it too has issues with backlogs.

So risking making those backlogs worse, and thus making delays even longer, I feel, is not a prudent choice, because it means that legitimate and serious issues that need to be addressed could potentially be held up by frivolous complaints; not only the complaints themselves, but also the idea of reviewing every single person who files a complaint to determine, by some set of criteria we are not privy to, whether or not they can qualify as low-income. This too could potentially add substantially to the length of the process, and no one, whether landlord or tenant, wants to wait longer for a decision.

Furthermore, I am under the impression that the fee is typically returned to the tenant if they are successful at the board. So that’s an area of Bill 14 that I think is a problem.

I think it’s a shame that we had a bill that everyone agreed on, that was supported all around, and now we’ve changed it in a way to make passing the effective streamlining measures of Bill 14 take longer, and I hope that is resolved at committee.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Bill Walker: It’s a pleasure to make comment on my colleague from Dufferin–Caledon. What I have found in my time serving alongside her—and it has indeed been a pleasure—is that she is a reasoned, balanced person who always brings facts to this table. She does her homework, she represents her constituents to the best of her ability and she also looks at the big picture for Ontarians across the board.

She’s made a good point that Bill 65 was here last year and, in fact, could have been enacted, could be law and could actually be serving the people—which we were duly elected to do here in this chamber—and yet, they prorogued. And to her point again, she said there are mechanisms that could have carried that legislation over so that it would have been enacted, but no, we start all over from scratch.

I find it a bit disingenuous of the Attorney General to bring up the word “filibuster.” Yesterday or the day before in debate, he played to the camera and said, “Why are the PCs prolonging all of this?” What he failed to disclose was that the Liberals spoke to that exact, same bill at every opportunity. So it’s a bit disingenuous and disheartening, to say the very least.

Our colleague from Leeds–Grenville stood in this chamber a year ago, almost to the day, and advised that the PCs were prepared to support this legislation that would have actually gone forward and helped people. It could have been helping people, it could have eliminated a million dollars in costs and it could have lessened the court backlogs, and yet here we still are, going through this.

She raised a very good point that the bill does allow a transfer of the dispute resolution process from the courts to the Landlord and Tenant Board, which is a good thing. Any time we can get more productivity through our courts and those people who have other issues to take forward, it’s a good thing. But I also agree that the new point they inserted into this new bill, which we’re yet doing over again, definitely has potential for increasing complaints.

They can waive the fee, but again, it’s very interesting that they use this ambiguity. They want the 30-second sound bite that sounds great to the public and the media stream, but there’s never any substance behind it. If you really start to ask questions—how will this work, who really gets impacted, what’s the reality?—there’s never any fact there. I’m very disheartened that we’re doing this again. They’re not serving the people of Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. John O’Toole: I listened to the discussion by the member from Dufferin–Caledon, and I think she made the points I’m hearing repeatedly here, but they need to be stated. The question then becomes, is the government actually listening?

I was looking back at my notes, and last time—this is the third time this bill has been called, and with all due respect and deference to the people who work in this industry, waiting for the right thing to be done, they’ve been thwarted one more time in the attempt to get this to committee. The government has the power, in different rules, to end this debate if they find that they have a real intent to resolve the issue, and I think that by bringing in a closure motion on that, they would indicate that they have to negotiate a solution.

With a minority government, that’s really the politics of all this happening. We find much appealing about this bill. At the same time, there are other things that we feel they should be looking at with a different view.

Some of that is the approach to the budget of Ontario. We feel they’ve made a complete mess of pretty well everything in terms of spending. Even if you look at the hearings that are going on on the gas plants, the hearings that are going on on Ornge and the hearings that are going on on the neglect in health care with respect to chemotherapy, there’s much—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I’d like you to sit down, thank you. The member from Durham is well aware that he’s drifting way, way far away from the bill. Maybe you want to get back on track.

Mr. John O’Toole: Thank you very much, Speaker. You’re right. I was trying to make a point, though, with your indulgence. The point I was trying to make is that this bill should go to committee. I think we’ve said that. All of the speakers here see the reasonableness of that point. What’s missing is any sense of contriteness or apologetic mode by this government, this not new government—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you. Questions and comments?

Mr. Jack MacLaren: This bill basically is good, and we will support it. It’s in need of some minor changes, but the main point of sending most disputes to the Landlord and Tenant Board is a great idea. It creates efficiencies. It saves money—approximately $1 million in costs—which is currently going to lawyers and court costs when we go to courts now. So that will be a welcome thing because, certainly, co-op housing is intended to be cheap housing for people who are in need of subsidized, cheap housing. Every penny counts. So if we can save $1 million and that would help provide a few more housing units or better maintenance for housing units, that’s a great thing.

I see there are a few points that are not included, which I find kind of funny: no pets; clearing of snow and cutting of lawns would still go to court. I’m a little puzzled by that. Surely the Landlord and Tenant Board could deal with fairly minor issues like that. But at committee these amendments could be made.

Consideration of landlords’ rights against frivolous complaints by tenants who would abuse the system and go to the Landlord and Tenant Board on a pointless, frequent basis: Those kinds of questions have to be addressed, and landlords’ rights and concerns have to be addressed.

The fees for cost recovery, I would suggest that would have to be looked at. I’m not sure why we need to be charging fees to people who basically can’t afford a house. I would suggest maybe an appropriate thing that a committee could look at would be the waiving of fees.

In short, I think what we have here is the essence of a good bill that our party will support. We look forward to speaking to it at committee, making some necessary changes, having input from people in the community such as landlords, in particular, and making it even better.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s good to be back. I was away yesterday. The Governor General was in my riding. I then had a chance to meet with Minister Meilleur up in Whitney looking at some of the flood damage from the high water levels on the Madawaska system, particularly at Galeairy Lake.

I have heard my colleagues ask repeatedly, “Why didn’t the government put this bill through before?” Then they talk about, “Oh, prorogation.” They want us now to extricate them from a problem of their own creation. Like, do we have to do all your work for you over there? Have you not figured it out? You had every opportunity before Dalton McGuinty tried to take a walk off the edge of the cliff, so to speak, and declared that he didn’t want to work with you guys anymore—because we never see him. You know that, eh? He could have brought in a programming motion that would have ensured that this bill was dealt with.

This bill would have been dealt with. Now we see the government wanting the PCs to do their work for them.

Well, the one thing that is very clearly provided for in the standing orders of this House, in the rules of debate, is that every member who wishes to speak to a bill will have the opportunity to do so. The government can change that. The government can take that away. The government has the ability. The government can bring in a closure motion. If they want this debate to end, then bring in a closure motion, but we still have members who believe that they have the right and the responsibility to speak to this piece of legislation. It affects them in their ridings; it affects people all across the province.

Do we want to see this bill move forward? Absolutely. Do we want to see it get to committee? Absolutely. Do we believe that the—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you.

Mr. John Yakabuski: “Absolutely” was my last word, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Very good.

The member from Dufferin–Caledon has two minutes.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Thank you, Speaker.

It fascinates me that for a government that talks about respectful conversation, there was not a single member of the NDP or the Liberal caucus who chose to stand up and comment on my debate.

To the members from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound, Durham, Carleton–Mississippi Mills, and Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, thank you for the feedback. Thank you for the comments. Perhaps the respectful conversation that is happening in the chamber and in Ontario is between two parties, excluding the official opposition. I don’t know; I’m not privy to it. But I do find it intriguing that no one has chosen to talk about the specific issues that I raised about Bill 14/65 in my 10 minutes of debate.

As I raised, when it comes to the Premier’s promise of co-operation and conversations, it’s starting to sound a lot like empty rhetoric. The Premier pledged over and over again, with great fanfare, a new approach of co-operation with the opposition parties, yet we just saw an example today where not only did you not participate in the debate and you are not commenting on the debate that is occurring, but you’re just sitting—I see half of you on your BlackBerrys and half of you reading the newspaper.

This debate is important to Ontario, this debate does make a difference, and you have a responsibility as a legislator to participate in it and ensure that we are getting it right. That is the point of debating in this chamber. That is the point of committees and public hearings: to hear from the public, to hear from the stakeholders, to ensure that we have got it right. I’m not sure you have it right with Bill 14, and I find it very unfortunate that you have chosen to not even participate in a debate on such an important piece of legislation.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mr. Jeff Yurek: I’m pleased to have an opportunity to speak to the bill, and I’d like to recognize the members from the co-op industry here to listen to debate. Welcome.

I think it’s very important to recognize the role that co-op housing plays in our community. Co-op housing provides a unique form of housing for the 125,000 people across the province who live in the 550 co-op housing complexes. It allows its members to come together in a common purpose.

We recognize that not everyone in Ontario can afford to buy a house or a condo. Through its membership-based model, co-op housing provides the opportunity for those who otherwise can’t afford to take these things a chance to take pride in ownership over their living environment.

The co-op model is an elegant solution to meet the needs in our community. My riding of Elgin–Middlesex–London is home to a number of co-op housing complexes. I had an opportunity to meet with some of them last December from the Elmview Estates co-op, the Meadowdale Community Housing Co-op, the Pinafore Station Co-op and the Stirling Meadows Housing Co-op. There are two others in my riding that I have not yet had a chance to meet with: Troy Village Housing Co-op in Aylmer and, of course, the Whiteoak Heritage Housing in south London. Together, these complexes alone provide 340 units in my riding.

When I met with the representatives from my area’s co-op complexes, they described to me the benefits of the membership received from having an ownership stake and management responsibilities for their housing units. I enjoyed at the time, December, the fact that people living in the co-ops would get together and have a Christmas gathering for the kids. The kids would receive gifts. It kind of forms their own little community that strengthens each other.

I’ve talked to other people in the community about the co-op housing, and they find it great, the fact that babysitters—they look out for one another’s kids when they’re out playing. If they have to make a quick errand to go get something in an emergency or just go to the grocery store quickly, their neighbour is quite readily available to help them out. I find that is unique now. We find in the other types of neighbourhoods that we have, or out in the rural communities, where you’re far and few between, that it’s a lot harder to get the extra help in the community.

So this co-op housing pretty much brings together the old-fashioned type of community we used to see 20 or 30 years ago.

Clearly, the virtues of co-op housing are immense, but as with anything, disputes will inevitably arise. The matter of housing, co-op or otherwise, lends itself to a fair share of disputes over things like rent arrears, late payments, wilful property damage and interfering with other tenants’ enjoyment of their property.

For years, people have had to turn to the court systems to resolve their disputes. Thankfully, we’re not as litigious a society as the United States, but our court systems do get overburdened. That’s why I’m proud to say that it was Premier Harris who recognized this and took action in 1997. Under his leadership, Ontario used a tribunal system, rather than courts, to settle tenure disputes in rental housing. This sparked a trend of lawmakers across Canada to keep civil cases out of the expensive court system. Using tools like mediation and arbitration, both landlords and tenants have access to a fair, cost-effective way to resolve their disputes.

While this marked a step forward in rental housing, the move did not account for co-op housing. Members of a co-op housing unit must still rely on the court system to settle their disputes. The ministry has estimated that the cost of resolving co-op disputes in the courts can range from $3,000 to $5,000 each. Annual legal costs of co-op members for the approximately 300 cases heard each year are in the neighbourhood of $1 million. These really are punitive amounts for tenants and landlords simply seeking a way to resolve their disputes.

I’ll give this government credit. It recognized the deficiency in the system and proposed a piece of legislation to overcome it. Of course, I’m not talking about Bill 14, which is the subject of today’s debate; I’m talking about Bill 65.

The two bills, in terms of content and text, are the same. The only difference is, Bill 65 was introduced just over a year ago, on April 16. Back then, the PC Party and my colleagues had said what we’re saying now: We will support this bill through second reading and work with all parties in committee to ensure its final form optimizes the benefits for all co-op housing providers and their tenants.

For a government that accuses us of always saying no and of being averse to any types of collaboration, our willingness—eagerness, even—to get the work moving on co-op unit disputes to the Landlord and Tenant Board proves otherwise. It is a policy that makes sense from both a cost perspective and an access-to-justice perspective. The PC Party’s focus has always been and will always be to push for the most practical, beneficial and cost-effective reforms, for the benefit of Ontario, and this legislation, in principle, falls into that category.

We were prepared last year to support Bill 65 and work with the government and the NDP to offer reasoned amendments to enhance it. And what was this government’s next move when it came to Bill 65? They let it sit on the order paper and ultimately killed it with their cynical move to prorogue Parliament. This is what happens when we have a government that makes decisions based on politics and not on good government. Another example of this is the erroneous bill the taxpayers have been saddled with for the government’s GTA seat-saving plan, the gas plant cancellation.

When we should have been debating ways to get our economy moving again, creating jobs for the half a million people out of work, and figuring out ways to reduce our debt and deficit before the credit rating agencies downgrade us again, we were locked out of the chamber.

As for Bill 14, previously Bill 65, we are debating it today, knowing full well that it should already be law. If we refer back to some statistics I quoted earlier, in the year that this bill has been delayed, 300 co-op-related tenure cases have appeared before a court, at a cost of a million dollars to the co-op members. Again, the government has delayed progress and hurt the people we’re supposed to be representing.

The final point I’d like to make is over an amendment this bill is proposing without any consultation. The bill talks about waiving the fee for the Landlord and Tenant Board for low-income tenants, without actually defining “low income.” I’m sure that if a consultation process was done previous to reintroducing this bill, this could have been fixed and clear

definitions defined.

My other concern with this bill is, once it gets to committee, of the government actually bringing it back for third reading. There are many bills that we have done over the past two years which—many of them died during prorogation, of course. Now we have a whole slew of bills in committee, and we haven’t quite seemed to get them back to this House for third reading. So I call upon this government, when this bill is finally passed, to get it through committee as fast as possible and bring it back for third and final reading.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: You’re joking, right?

Mr. Jeff Yurek: No, I’m not joking; not at all.

Mr. Speaker, I’m definitely feeling that we can work together on this issue. We have done so under the guidance of our lead critic, Steve Clark, from Leeds–Grenville, who has a strong grasp of this issue and other issues that are affecting Ontarians. I feel that perhaps it’s time that the government can work with us in the committee and try to get these amendments and consultations put through so that, at the end of the day, we can come up for third reading and get this bill passed, which should have already been enacted into law last year.

Mr. Bill Walker: Why wasn’t it?

Mr. Jeff Yurek: Of course, it wasn’t last year, basically, because of the prorogation that occurred on October 16.

Mr. Speaker, I will love to hear the comments. Perhaps this time around, the government can have a two-minute hit and maybe the third party. My party is continually discussing and giving advice on this bill, and I look forward to their comments.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: With that, I’m pleased to kick in and do this two-minute hit on my colleague from St. Thomas–Elgin–Middlesex—

Mr. Jeff Yurek: Elgin–Middlesex–London.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Elgin. I always call it Elgin–Middlesex. Isn’t that something? Elgin–Middlesex–St. Thomas—and London; I’ll throw that in there for good measure as well.

But you know what? My colleague here, nevertheless, has really hit the nail on the head in that we have had a concern here because good bills totally died on the floor. As he said, it’s great to see this bill come back, because we understand the importance of lessening the burden on ordinary Ontarians. That’s what the PC Party is all about, and that’s what we stand for.

If we can work through this particular bill—in a co-operative fashion, I might say—we should be able to realize some ease of burden on our folks and allow people who have disputes with their landlords to save some dollars. Instead of going to the courts, they can go through the Landlord and Tenant Board and actually get some realization and some resolve in issues that really shouldn’t be stress and extra dollars on a taxpayer who’s already burdened.

As I said, we’re glad this bill came back. We can’t get it through into committee fast enough because this is something that’s going to make life in Ontario a little bit easier. But then we have to get to the tough parts. We have to get to what else will make living in Ontario a little bit easier—not only co-operative living, but we’ve got to address the cost of ever-rising energy bills.

It’s a travesty how the government and the third party are dealing with issues and painting by political colours as opposed to addressing good policy and making sure that we can work together to ensure that life is a little bit more affordable in Ontario. We need to work together to achieve that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Bill Walker: It’s absolutely a pleasure to follow my colleague from Elgin–Middlesex–London. Mr. Yurek always comes prepared. He works very diligently on behalf of his constituents. He’s concerned about this in his riding, and he’s doing his right and his obligation to the people who sent him here to Queen’s Park to actually stand up and debate these issues.

I found it interesting—although he may have said it in jest, the colleague across the floor from Glengarry–Prescott–Russell uses the word that we were just “whining.” Well, I would like to take this opportunity to remind him that the role of the official opposition is to challenge the government and make sure that we’re bringing the thoughts of our taxpayers to this chamber. Our job is to represent them and to hold the government of the day to account, and let me tell you, Speaker—you know this as well as I do—that’s a heck of a big job right now.

If we start talking about the corruption of the gas plant scandals that’s going to cost the taxpayers of this great province probably a billion dollars or more, the Ornge boondoggle and another billion dollars, the eHealth boondoggle, the tax they said they wouldn’t raise—and they still haven’t cured the ills of the health ministry despite all of that.

I would be remiss, particularly with my colleague from Huron–Bruce in the crowd, to not bring up the Green Energy Act and that that government removed local democracy from the people who are the closest to the people.

It’s interesting that Bill 14—that the Liberals have chosen, along with their coalition partner, the NDP, to not discuss this matter. Yet this legislation has been delayed because of that party and the third party sitting on their hands, choosing not to do anything and to prop them up at budget time last year, and then the prorogation took this off. They could have had all of this in place. They could have actually been helping people, which they always suggest in this House that they’re here to do.

This bill needs some revision. We’re generally in support of it; my colleague from Leeds–Grenville said that a year ago. Let’s get it to committee. We want the two parties to work with us so we can get this to be enacted.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: I just want to let the members from the Conservatives and the Liberals—I’ve been in my seat since 9 o’clock. I’ve been listening to the debate. Part of debate is listening. I have been listening, and I respectfully listened to the points that you have been bringing across. We all agree that this should be referred to a committee, as is my understanding. So let’s do that. But I take great offence when you’re telling me that I’m not part of this debate. I’m listening. I am here; I am in my seat.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Jack MacLaren: I agree with our colleague down the way that it should go to committee. We will complete this debate at some point, and it will go there.

This is a most worthy bill. It addresses the needs of people who, through no fault of their own, have trouble getting housing. So we’re helping them, as a compassionate society, to find the housing they need. A lot of people put a lot of effort into providing housing for people who have this need, at an affordable rate.

The changes in this bill will help make it more efficient and more effective, and more cost-effective, to deliver non-profit housing to those who are in need in our communities. We have people in our galleries who work very hard and talk to all of us in the Legislature about doing just that. So the changes here are most welcome.

We are going to reduce the cost of solving disputes by not going to courts and by going to the Landlord and Tenant Board—we’ll save about a million dollars. This will go toward providing more cost-effective housing for people who are in need.

We have a lot of co-op housing in my riding. I’ve had the pleasure, during campaigning, of knocking on the doors of those people. I met an awful lot of wonderful citizens who, through no fault of their own, are in need of help with respect to economical housing. So it’s a wonderful thing that is done with co-operative not-for-profit housing, and we strongly support this.

We do need to go to committee. We will do that; we will support the bill. There are changes that need to be made that will make it even better and fairer for both sides, meaning tenants and landlords, and we look forward to having input into that and to hearing input from people in the community who have concerns and have good input to make this a better bill. We look forward to going there—to going to committee. We look forward to this bill passing, and we look forward to helping people get the housing that they need at the most affordable price possible.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Elgin–Middlesex–London has two minutes.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Interjections.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: You’re a little late. Thank you.

I’d like to thank the member from Carleton–Mississippi Mills, the member from Huron–Bruce, the member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound and his yellow paper and, of course, the member from Algoma–Manitoulin. Thank you very much for your comments.

I would like to make note of comments from the government side that this is a waste of time. I feel this isn’t a waste of time. I was elected to speak on behalf of my constituents, and I know how politics works, over the short time I’ve been here. If I didn’t address this issue, if I didn’t say anything in this Legislature, the next election coming up, I’m sure the candidate for the government side against me would raise that issue that I was quiet, and I will not be quiet for my constituents. I will bring them forward and—

Interjections.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: —my words.

To the third party, we have twice as many members as you in the House, so naturally we’re going to take a little bit longer in our debates in order to get every one of our 36 members here an opportunity to address the Legislature.

On the other side of the half is, I agree with you, listening and understanding the debate that’s going on. I can only hope that, come budget time in another three or four weeks, you do more than just listen and sit on your hands this year; that you help and vote down this government, because there is no confidence in this government anymore.

Mr. Speaker, this is a great bill going forward. Bill 14, which was Bill 65 originally, should have been passed, as I mentioned earlier, but due to prorogation they had to start from scratch. We’re getting close to having this bill voted on and passed. I’m just hoping that this government realizes that once it hits committee, let’s speed up the process and get it back here for third reading and get it enacted into law.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate? The member from Hamilton Mountain.

Miss Monique Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Am I doing further debate or comments and questions?

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate.

Miss Monique Taylor: Well, Mr. Speaker, I was actually scheduled for debate today, but I choose not to take my debate time, because we really need to move this legislation forward. We need to get it into committee. The poor people from the co-op housing have been here day after day after day listening to debate. They were not only here during this portion of the session, but they were here before it was prorogued. So, Mr. Speaker, I’m going to say, “Enough said.” Let’s move it on. I’ve been in my seat since 9 a.m. this morning listening to debate, and I know other members have been also. I’m looking forward to further debate from the Conservatives. Thank you.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): That’s the shortest further debate I’ve heard.

Questions and comments?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: Again, I support that bill very, very much because of all the good things that co-ops are doing in my community and all the projects that they’re moving forward with. But I told you, you better stay here, because the opposition party is saying that they’re supporting your bill, but really they’re not supporting your bill. That’s why they keep talking about it—and you will hear once in a while that they want to change the heart of the bill. That’s what they want.

They want to bring it to committee, but they think that by speaking and speaking you will go away and then they will be able to say that they are not supporting the bill. So stay here. It’s unfortunate that you have to be here when really you have other, better things to do, but stay here, keep an eye on them—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Could I remind the minister that she’s not addressing the people in the gallery; she’s supposed to talk through me. Thank you.

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: The message is for you too, okay? Thank you.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member for Durham.

Mr. John O’Toole: To the member from Hamilton Mountain, I believe passionately that she could have used her time to put a voice to her constituents. That’s really what this is about. Now, I’m not saying what your voice should be and what comments you should make, but I think the point has been made this morning that we have indeed a right and a privilege, a responsibility. There is a question here today suggesting that we should sit down and just shove this through.

To me, there’s so much of that going on in this Legislature, and I say in committee as well, where the government, even in question period—and this does apply to Bill 14. The government in question period is ditching the questions off on gas plants, billion-dollar waste, and they’re never actually answering the question or disclosing information that they could be said to be covering up. I’m not going to say “covering up,” because it would be wrong, but I’m just saying that’s the real issue.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Durham knows—he’s been here long enough—that we don’t use words like that. Withdraw.

Mr. John O’Toole: I withdraw that, but—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Not “but”; withdraw.

Mr. John O’Toole: I withdraw.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you.

Mr. John O’Toole: I guess the point I’m trying to make is this is the third time this piece of legislation has come before this House. On each occasion it’s been delayed or prorogued so that the debate has not concluded. I have no confidence in this government that this Bill 14 will actually make it into this House. I believe after the budget—and I believe the coalition between the NDP and the Liberals will pass the budget—we’ll be out of here in June and this will not even be in committee. There’s all kinds of bills that aren’t at committee.

I don’t have any confidence in this government—and I respect Harvey and his colleagues who are here. You are being manipulated by this government, in my view.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you. Questions and comments?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The reason that this won’t get to committee, by the way, for those who are listening, is that the Progressive Conservatives keep putting speakers up on the bill. What we’ve been asked for from the stakeholders—and trust me, Mr. Speaker, this is not an earth-shattering bill; this is a very small thing that needs to be done to help our co-ops.

I want to give a shout-out to 55 Howard Park, that celebrated their anniversary just the other day—20 years. We’re going to be standing up for about eight to 10 seconds each—we’re going to be giving our questions and comments—because we want to see this bill get to committee, and we can make that happen if the Progressive Conservatives work with us on this.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: I have a problem with the official opposition’s credibility. They have a majority in Ottawa, and I have heard today every member opposite talk about their passion for co-op housing. Could they then explain one thing to me: Why is the majority federal government not renewing rent-geared-to-income subsidies? Why, if they care about this bill and they’re not holding it up and obstructing it, are their federal counterparts dumping about 12,000 families out of affordable housing because they’re refusing to renew the income supplements under

section 95 of the federal act?

The Conservative Party—and how many of you have written one letter to your federal counterpart? How many—

Interjections.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I can barely hear myself. Could you please ask them to—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Okay, folks. I’m going to have to start moving into action soon. Get my drift?

Continue.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: If there’s any value to the words that these people actually care, how are they standing by, not writing a letter? Why has there not been a question? Why has there been nothing out of the Ontario so-called Progressive Conservative Party, that they’re not even aware that 12,000 Ontario families are about to lose their affordable housing because of that party?

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments? The member from Burlington.

Mrs. Jane McKenna: I’m pleased to rise today to take

part in the continuing debate around Bill 14, the Non-profit Housing Co-operatives Statute Law Amendment Act.

I’d like to commend the member from Leeds–Grenville for taking such an active interest in this issue around co-operative housing since taking on the portfolio of municipal affairs and housing critic for the official opposition.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I’ve been informed by the table that you’re the fifth speaker, so you’ll have to sit down.

The member from Hamilton Mountain has a two-minute response.

Miss Monique Taylor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I did not want to question that judgment call there. I find it offensive that I’m told that I don’t stand in this House and represent my constituents, because I have stood many times on this bill speaking to the great work of co-ops happening in my riding. I have a fabulous relationship with all of the co-ops. I visit them frequently. I’ll give a personal shout-out to a woman who’s become a very good friend of mine, Tracy Geddes with Applegrove co-op housing. She had knee surgery the other day, and I hope that she’s recovering well.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker; I will not be speaking any further to this debate.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It being close to 10:15, this House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1008 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Steve Clark: I don’t believe she’s in the chamber, but I know that she’s wandering the halls as part of the delegation of the OFA. It’s a pleasure for me to introduce Eleanor Renaud, who is a councillor with the township of Elizabethtown-Kitley. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Paul Miller: It’s my pleasure to introduce the Cassavetes family: Dale, Kim, Cristene and Kevin; grandmother Lillian McConnell; cousin Lauren McConnell; brother-in-law Renzo Vieceli—and Nicole’s best friend, Katelynn Labrosse. They are here at Queen’s Park today to get answers about Nicole Cassavetes’s passing at Sick Kids.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’d like to welcome representatives of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, and particularly president Mark Wales and vice-president Don McCabe, who are with us here today.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: I’d like to introduce a constituent of mine who is a councillor for Malahide township and also the president of the OFA: Mark Wales, who’s somewhere here.

I also have here—I was talking to him on the weekend—Father Mark Sargeant was somewhere on the premises yesterday or will be today. I just want to welcome him.

Mr. Bill Mauro: This morning, the Ontario Federation of Agriculture hosted a breakfast here. I was happy to attend and introduce to the Legislative Assembly, from my riding of Thunder Bay–Atikokan, the northern rep on the OFA, Ms. Peggy Brekveld.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: Our page captain today, Jack Greenberg, has his mother, Tracey Collinson, in with us today and also his father, Mark Greenberg; his brother Henry Greenberg; his grandmother Eleanor Greenberg; and his grandfather Harold Greenberg. Welcome to the Legislature of Ontario.

Hon. Jeff Leal: It’s my pleasure to introduce some regional directors for the Ontario Federation of Agriculture. Peggy Brekveld was already introduced by my colleague from Thunder Bay–Atikokan, but we have Ralph Brodie, Bruce Buttar, Keith Currie, Larry Davis and Joe Dickenson. Welcome.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: It gives me great pleasure to welcome to the Legislature today Frank Kuri, Hugh Moran, Morley Salmon and David Nelms from the Ontario Petroleum Institute. David Nelms was a legislative page here in 1969 when John Robarts was Premier of Ontario.

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I want to introduce today the Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants—Debbie Douglas, the executive director; Josie Di Zio, past president; Sudip Minhas, the vice-president and western regional director; Ibrahim Absiye, the treasurer; Don Curry; Léonie Tchatat; Notisha Massaquoi; Maya Roy; and Amy Casipullai. Welcome to the Legislature.

Mr. Bill Walker: It’s my pleasure to introduce Paul Wettlaufer, a board member of the OFA, in the members’ gallery. Welcome.

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: I’m pleased to welcome a wonderful grade 4 and 5 class from Sunnylea Junior School in Etobicoke–Lakeshore who are here today, and their teachers, Rosemary Blackwell and Joanne Barker.

Mrs. Christine Elliott: I take great pleasure in introducing two representatives from Meningitis Relief Canada, including the founder and president, Furakh Mir, and Sarbjit Kaur, who are here to mark World Meningitis Day. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Bob Delaney: Making her first visit to Queen’s Park, I would like to ask members to recognize, in the members’ east gallery, Cassandra George.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: In the members’ west gallery, it’s my pleasure to introduce, from my riding of Halton, Mr. Liddar, who is the former deputy permanent representative of Canada to the United Nations Environment Programme and to the United Nations Human Settlements Programme in Nairobi, Kenya. Welcome to the Legislature.

Mr. Grant Crack: It’s also a pleasure for me to welcome some other members of the board of directors from the Ontario Federation of Agriculture: Larry Freeman, Peter Lambrick, Eleanor Renaud, Louis Roesch, Brent Royce and also—already introduced—Paul Wettlaufer.

Mr. Frank Klees: I’m pleased to introduce Maddy Stieva. She is the treasurer of the Ontario PC association.

Ms. Dipika Damerla: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: I believe we have unanimous consent to wear carnations in honour of World Meningitis Day.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): There is a belief that we have unanimous consent. Do we have unanimous consent to wear the carnations? Agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I would like to introduce, in the gallery, the executive director of the North Bay and area multicultural society, Mr. Don Curry.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Last call for introductions.

I have two of my own. I’d like to welcome, from the great riding of Brant, an OFA director and a friend, Mr. Larry Davis. We’re glad you’re here with us in the members’ gallery.

Here with us in the Speaker’s gallery we have the Honourable Ivan Vrdoljak, Minister of Economy of the Republic of Croatia. He is accompanied today by the ambassador of Canada to Croatia and the consul general of the Republic of Croatia, in Mississauga. Let us give them a warm welcome. We’re glad you’re here with us today.

ORAL QUESTIONS

MANUFACTURING JOBS

Mr. Tim Hudak: My question is to the Premier. Yesterday your Minister of Finance said that Ontario was the lowest-cost and lowest-tax jurisdiction in North America. I think you know that’s not even close to being true.

Your lead on the gas plant committee compared the abuse at the gas plants to a rocket shot to the moon, in terms of being a worthwhile investment. You yourself, in a headline in the Toronto Star on April 3, said that the death of Ontario’s manufacturing sector is a myth.

Premier, I don’t know if this simply reflects that your government has become out of touch, increasingly arrogant, or whatever you want to call it. I ask you, how do those types of attitudes attract a single job to the province of Ontario?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Well, you know, I believe in talking up Ontario and making sure people understand that this is a place where business can thrive.

The comment about manufacturing arose out of the 10 jobs round tables that I did around the province with some of the ministers in the cabinet, where we talked to people who are in manufacturing who are hiring folks, who are talking to us about how we can invest in innovation to in fact grow the manufacturing sector, and how important it is that we not lose sight of the fact that Ontario is an important manufacturing centre.

That’s where that comment came from—talking up Ontario, making sure we understand that we can draw industry and investment to the province, rather than denigrating the province, which makes no sense to me at all.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Respectfully, Premier, it’s not talk that’s going to get Ontario moving forward; it’s making the right decisions to grow our economy, to rein in spending, to take Ontario down a very different path.

I do want to focus particularly on the plight of the manufacturing sector. We’ve lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs under the McGuinty-Wynne Liberal government. Sadly, A.O. Smith in Fergus got the news recently that they’re closing down and moving to Tennessee with 350 jobs.

My colleague from Wellington–Halton Hills, Ted Arnott, has been a champion for the manufacturing sector. He went to the plant himself to try to fight for those jobs, to keep them here in the province of Ontario. Ted is doing the right thing, but it really hurts his ability to attract jobs to the province when the Premier says that the death of manufacturing in Ontario is a myth. Premier, will you apologize for making those dramatically out-of-touch comments?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I spoke with folks in that situation. I had a conversation with the member. I spoke with folks in Fergus in the A.O. Smith plant, and I know that that’s a difficult and painful situation; I understand that.

But the reality is that if we are going to thrive as a province, we need to recognize that bringing business to the province is absolutely a possibility, and it’s happening. We have regained 400,000 jobs since the downturn. It’s absolutely necessary. So we’re making sure that we understand the conditions, making sure we understand what the infrastructure is that’s needed, so that we can create those conditions so that business will come to the province. That’s what we’ve been doing; that’s what we will continue to do, Mr. Speaker. And I would hope that the member opposite would be part of that endeavour.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: I talk about one individual. His name is Dan Bailey. I think, Ted, you’ve known Dan your entire life. Dan would be in his early fifties, and he lost his job at A.O. Smith, part of the decline in the manufacturing sector that you call a myth. Ted himself, Mr. Arnott, from Wellington–Halton Hills—I apologize, Speaker—has now for probably eight years been highlighting the trend downwards in manufacturing jobs. He has brought good ideas to the table. He fights for folks like Dan Bailey. Mr. Bailey, in his early fifties, is going to have a very difficult time getting back into the job market to provide for his family, to pay off the mortgage.

Premier, I’ll ask you again, when you see this type of circumstance in Ontario, don’t you think you’re wrong to say the decline of manufacturing is a myth, and isn’t your obligation to support the policies that the member has brought forward, to actually create jobs, open us up for investment to get Ontario—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The fact that nearly 32,000 manufacturing jobs have been recovered since the recessionary low—I think that’s a good-news story, Mr. Speaker. I think that’s something we should focus on.

On top of that, I will just say there are members here today of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture. They have come from all across the province, Mr. Speaker, and they—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): That will do. Thank you.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The members of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture know that it is extremely important that in Ontario we understand the importance of the agri-food industry, that we understand that manufacturing includes the agriculture community and includes the agri-food industry, and that innovation in that community, along with in automotive, in natural resources, in agriculture, film, small business—all of that is how we are going to thrive. That’s why we’ve been able to regain 32,000 manufacturing jobs, and we’re going to continue on that path as Ontario grows.

MANUFACTURING JOBS

Mr. Tim Hudak: Back to the Premier, Speaker: I mentioned the challenges that somebody like Mr. Bailey is going to face. The 300,000 jobs that used to be in our manufacturing sector have now left for other jurisdictions like Tennessee, Wisconsin, Michigan and Indiana. Sadly, while the Premier was visiting, I think, Wellington county, she said the following in response to the loss of jobs at A.O. Smith. She said, “We’re trending in the right direction.”

Premier, when you look at the 350 jobs lost at A.O. Smith, when we find that Wescast in Wingham just laid off more people yesterday, when Stanpac in Smithville is forced to contemplate sending jobs to Texas instead of Ontario because of our hydro rates, don’t you think it’s time to take a different course, to actually rein in spending, lower taxes, get hydro rates under control? Isn’t that the way to bring jobs back?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We know that global competition for manufacturing is—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Oxford, come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We understand that. We recognize that we have to take strong action in order to be competitive, and we’ve been doing that, which is why 32,000 manufacturing jobs have been regained since the recession. So it’s extremely important.

I understand that there is a painful reality that when a particular plant closes or a particular business leaves, those jobs are lost. That is a painful reality. I understand that. But we have to focus as a government, and I would think everyone in the Legislature has to focus, on how we make sure people have the right skills so that we can make sure that they get the jobs that are available, because one of the things that manufacturers say to me is, “We’re looking for skilled trades. We’re looking for people who have a particular skill set.” Our responsibility is to make sure we match the labour force with the labour market.

Those jobs will come to the province. We will have that investment, but only if we are positive and we put the conditions in place.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Chatham, come to order.

Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Thank you, Speaker.

I don’t doubt that the Premier has empathy for Mr. Bailey and the 350 people who lost their jobs at A.O. Smith and those who lost their jobs at John Deere and Caterpillar. But the challenge is, I don’t think your government understands the cause of the problem, nor do I believe, Premier, that the Liberal government has an understanding of how to actually move us forward and restore hope to those who have lost hope in our province, who are out of work today.

We’ve brought forward policies to lower taxes in this province and actually get energy rates under control, to drain that swamp of red tape and regulation and runaround that is, contrary to your finance minister’s opinion, the most burdensome in all of Canada. We’ve put those ideas on the table.

Premier, this should be an alarm bell for you to hit the brakes and go in the opposite direction. Instead of trying to be more like California, why don’t you give our policies a chance and restore hope for those without jobs in the province of Ontario?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Employment.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I would have to say that when it comes to A.O. Smith, we are doing everything we can as a government to support those workers, who are in a very precarious situation, and we’re certainly, both through the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities, working with all partners—the unions, the company involved, the local mayor and the other leadership, including the member representing Wellington. So we’re working hard to do that.

I talked to the mayor last week as well. We’ve offered to make available to those communities our Communities in Transition fund, our Southwestern Ontario Development Fund—which, of course, the member opposite, the official opposition, opposed its creation. It’s an issue that we’re taking very seriously. We know that those are jobs that are going to be lost in the coming months, so we’re working hard to make sure that those workers can transition into other opportunities.

When it comes to the manufacturing sector, if in the supplementary I have an opportunity to speak to that, I will enjoy that opportunity.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: I don’t doubt that the minister is attempting to respond. He has called the mayor. I just wish you had taken action in the nine years before this plant closed down. The member for Wellington–Halton Hills rang those alarm bells eight years ago. We’ve brought forward ideas to grow the economy, to create jobs. I believe the manufacturing sector can make a comeback in Ontario. I believe our better days are yet to come.

But let me ask you this: If you’ve embarked on policies for nine years that ramped up government spending, that plunged us towards doubling our debt and you’re contemplating raising taxes again, don’t you understand that’s going to cost us more jobs; that’s going to dig the hole deeper? It’s time to go down a bold new course. Look at our plan. We’ll turn the province around and we’ll bring good manufacturing jobs back to the province of Ontario.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Minister?

Hon. Eric Hoskins: Here’s where I disagree. Our manufacturing sector in this province is making a comeback, and it’s making a comeback partly because this party and this government supported the auto sector at a time when the official opposition didn’t.

Let me also say that in terms of manufacturing sales, the member opposite, the leader of the official opposition, might be interested to know that manufacturing sales rose in eight provinces in February, led by this province; led by Ontario.

In foreign direct investment, this jurisdiction here in Ontario is the third-best jurisdiction in all of North America for foreign direct investment, and let me give you an example that in fact the Speaker might be familiar with. Just last Friday, an announcement was made in Brantford where a company called Hematite, which supports the auto sector, received $1.5 million from the Southwestern Ontario Development Fund. They’ve added another line; they’re doubling employment in the next two years. The president of that company, John Pavanel, said, “Without the Southwestern Ontario Development Fund”—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: My question is to the Premier. New Democrats have been clear since the throne speech that if we’re going to support a budget, it has to create jobs, it has to strengthen our health care and it has to make life more affordable.

When families sit down to pay their bills, one of the biggest ones is their auto insurance bill. This government has brought in changes to help make the industry more profitable, but has told drivers time and time again that there’s nothing more it can do for them. Is the government finally prepared to take some real action to make drivers in this province have a more affordable insurance premium?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We have said that this is an area of great concern to us, that auto insurance premiums in Ontario are too high, that we need to work to make sure that they are lowered, as we have been doing, quite frankly, since 2004. We’ve made a lot of changes. Auto insurance rates did go down, on average, I think, 11% across the province. We recognize that they have risen again, and we are committed to working to reduce those.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Here’s the frustration for people in my community and for millions of Ontarians in this province: They are paying the highest premiums in Canada. They’ve seen the government bring in reforms that have put billions of dollars into the pockets of the industry, but their rates keep climbing. Will the government give the Financial Services Commission of Ontario the mandate and the tools to actually bring about a reduction in auto insurance rates by 15%?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’m just going to contextualize this because there are a number of issues that have been raised by the third party. Auto insurance is one of them. Home care is one of them. Youth employment is another one. I have said quite clearly that these are all areas that we are interested in and have been interested in working on. They are things that I think absolutely need to be addressed, and we are going to do that in a responsible way, and we’re going to do it in a way that is practical and doable, that in fact can be implemented.

I’ve had a conversation with the leader of the third party. I know that this is a concern, and I know there’s a particular approach that the NDP would like to take. We have taken that into consideration, and we are going to work to reduce auto insurance premiums in a way that is practical, that’s doable and that will ensure that people in the province will continue to be able to get auto insurance, and at a reduced rate.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Thank you very much. Here’s the problem. People in this province feel like they’re simply falling behind, but we’re determined to make sure they get results in this upcoming budget.

For years, the government has promised that tax cuts to Ontario’s largest corporations would trickle down into jobs for Ontarians, that handing out six-figure pay hikes to hospital CEOs would somehow make our patients healthier and that higher insurance industry profits would somehow—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. The third party has the floor, please.

Thank you.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: —and that higher insurance industry profits would trickle down to drivers.

People are tired of the status quo that’s simply not working for people here in Ontario. It hasn’t worked, and it’s time for some real results in this upcoming budget.

The government has already supported a motion to reduce auto insurance rates by 15%. Will the government—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: To the member’s question, he knows all too well the efforts and the work we’ve done as a government to try to combat the issues of fraud, recognizing that the root cause of this is the cost of our claims. The costs of the claims in Ontario are 10 times higher than any other province. We’ve taken the steps necessary to address those issues. We recognize and agree that premiums, as a result, are much too high. We also recognize and acknowledge that the companies did lose money in previous years.

We are doing what’s necessary to initiate the change. We’re going to work with all parties to try to ensure that we get at this and that we reduce premiums for all Ontarians and the nine million drivers who exist in this great province. We are going to do this. We’re going to work with FSCO to get it done.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Premier. Ontarians expect the government will put them first, but instead, this government seems intent on putting private power companies first, like those in Oakville and Mississauga. The Liberals gave a contract to one even though it was borrowing money at 60% per annum. The Liberals told the Ontario Power Authority to abandon its legal defences when it came to settling with another.

Why did the government put the interests of private power companies ahead of the interests of Ontarians?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: I appreciate the question. Mr. Speaker, it’s hard to believe, but it was just last week that the Auditor General reported on the Mississauga issue. At that time, the very next day, members from the NDP and the Conservatives asked the question about the costs at Oakville: “Why don’t you just tell us now the ... cost of cancelling Oakville?” Another one: “Release all of the costs related to the Oakville.... Do it now, Premier. The people of Ontario deserve nothing less.” Another one: “Why don’t you just reveal the ... cost of the Oakville cancellation?”

Last week, the government did ask the Ontario Power Authority to come to committee with their most up-to-date costs on Oakville. We did move a motion. The government moved a motion yesterday to have the OPA here today and both opposition parties voted against it.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Premier, back to you: Two former energy ministers testified they had no idea that their staff were destroying information. But the former chief of staff to those two ministers told us he was destroying information.

Can the Premier tell us whether she can provide any assurance that her staff and the staff of all ministers are acting within the law when it comes to preserving information?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Referred to the government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, the committee is looking into a whole variety of issues related to the gas plants. In terms of the production of documents, the government has worked in good faith to comply with the committee’s rulings to the point where, with the encouragement of the Premier, our members last fall moved forward with a motion to have all government ministries in a very wide sweep produce all documents related to the gas plants issue to the committee—and that member, joined by his opposition colleagues, voted against that.

There is a process in place whereby committees can ask for documents. They didn’t want to go the route that we suggested. We are working to comply with any requests that come forward.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Leeds–Grenville, come to order.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: It’s kind of hard to provide documents that have been destroyed, Speaker; kind of hard.

Chris Bentley, the former Minister of Energy, yesterday claimed the reason the government’s bogus cost number was different from that of the Auditor General’s was because the ministry used a different way of counting costs. The Auditor General used standard accounting when he determined the cost of the Mississauga cancellation.

The Premier won’t say whether she still believes the $40-million figure for the Oakville cancellation is the one that in fact is true. Will the Premier tell us whether the $40-million figure for Oakville was regular accounting or Liberal accounting?

Hon. John Milloy: Again, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member has the gall to ask that question. Yesterday, at the urging of the Minister of Energy and with the support of government members, we asked for a special session to bring the OPA forward, where they could answer a whole range of questions on this issue. That member voted against it.

In terms of the production of documents, let me share a quote from the member from Nipissing and what he told the committee yesterday. Listen to this: “You know the Premier reminds us every day that documents will continue to be turned over, and this is a reasonable request of timing of two weeks. We asked for that day after day after day we’ve been asking that, and”—listen to this—“have been wonderfully receiving these documents.”

Mr. Speaker, we have been working in good faith to meet the committee’s requirements. We have gone beyond it in terms of transparency. The opposition preach a good tune here, but they constantly put their hands up to vote against our motions.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Victor Fedeli: My question is for the Premier. Premier, you’ve admitted the gas plant cancellations were political decisions, but at the justice committee, your former energy minister twice removed swore that it was because the power was no longer required. He also told the Toronto Star, “It won’t be built anywhere in Ontario.”

Premier, we’ve finally uncovered documents that tell us what really happened. This is from your justice ministry: “The government offered to make TransCanada whole by finding another gas plant from which it could make profits, and in return, TransCanada promised not to sue or otherwise embarrass the government.” Now, Speaker, we’re finally getting to the truth of why this new gas plant is being built.

Premier, did you spend all that taxpayer money just to save Liberal embarrassment?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: Again, it’s astonishing that they stand here and they ask questions for information, then they vote against the government motion to have the OPA come before the committee.

Last night, the Premier showed up in this Legislature to participate in a late show with the honourable member. He chose not to participate.

Tuesday morning, the government members asked that the Leader of the Opposition—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): That’s good.

Hon. John Milloy: Government members requested the Leader of the Opposition to come before the committee, and do you know what the opposition did? The official opposition attempted to block that motion.

So perhaps in the supplementary, the honourable member will tell us—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. The member from Simcoe–Grey, I’m trying to get somebody else on the other side. Give me a chance.

Minister of Rural Affairs, come to order, and especially when he’s answering.

Finish.

Hon. John Milloy: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, he will tell us, is the Leader of the Opposition going to play calendar on Tuesday, or will he be there to answer our questions?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Well, Speaker, if I wanted to see dancing like that, next time I’ll buy a ticket to A Chorus Line.

Premier, as if your political motivations weren’t enough, let’s look at how the plant we didn’t need was sited. Under sworn testimony, the former Premier’s chief of staff told the justice committee that it was he who came up with the five replacement site options. His number one choice was in Napanee, hundreds of kilometres from Oakville. I asked him what experience he had in siting energy plants and he said “none.” He has no energy experience whatsoever.

Premier, given that Liberal logic, why didn’t you just throw darts at a dartboard? You might have gotten a little closer to Oakville and saved the taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Question?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I ask the Premier again, did you spend all of that taxpayer money just to save Liberal embarrassment?

Hon. John Milloy: Let’s talk about political motivation. We’ve had tweets; we’ve had YouTube. I have here a Conservative Party pamphlet—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Rural Affairs will not put that up in the air again. If he does, he will be admonished.

Hon. John Milloy: I have here a Conservative Party pamphlet. You can tell it’s a Conservative Party pamphlet because the Leader of the Opposition is nowhere to be seen on it, as is usually the case. But let me quote it, Mr. Speaker: “The only party that will stop the Sherway power plant is the Ontario PC Party. On October 6, vote Ontario PC. Elect Mary Anne DeMonte-Whelan. Authorized by the CFO for the Etobicoke Centre Progressive Conservative Riding Association.”

And he has the gall to talk about political overtones. The Progressive Conservative Party was 100% against—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

CANCER TREATMENT

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour la ministre de la Santé et des Soins de longue durée. Yesterday we heard from Lakeridge Health, another hospital that was affected by the diluted chemotherapy drugs. Lakeridge had no idea that there was a grey area in regulation, and had they known, the process for securing those drugs would have been completely different. The hospital is taking its responsibility and doing everything it can to close the gaps in oversight.

My question is: Will the minister be as forthright and admit that she failed both hospitals and patients by failing to provide the necessary oversight?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Speaker, what I can tell you is that when I became aware of this situation, I took immediate and swift action. The first concern, of course, was for the patients affected, and I want to commend our hospitals for very quickly identifying the affected patients, reaching out to them, facilitating appointments with their oncologists and providing them with answers to their personal questions.

I then established a working group of all of the affected partners in this. I’ve appointed Dr. Jake Thiessen to lead an investigation of the cancer drug supply chain. I’ve posted regulations directing hospitals to purchase only from suppliers who are accredited. The College of Pharmacists is developing a regulation to give them access that they need to these facilities.

I’m very pleased that Health Canada is now taking ownership as well. They are moving on this issue; they know this requires a national solution.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: I guess the question is there: when she became aware. Why did it take so long to become aware? The grey area was first identified in 1997; this is 15 years ago. Since 2009, a policy document outlining the decision-making process between the two levels of government has been in place. Today we are learning that the problem does not exist in isolation but extends to some of the biggest players in the health care system.

Will the minister finally stop dodging responsibility, commit to doing her job, and close this gap in oversight?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I have done exactly that, and the member opposite knows that I have done exactly that. It is clear: This is a national problem. It requires a national solution. Even the federal minister acknowledges that this requires a national solution. Baxter is a company that supplies drugs to Ontario hospitals. It also supplies to hospitals right across the province.

We are doing our part. We are expanding the mandate of the College of Pharmacists. We are instructing hospitals to take this responsibility seriously. It’s very important that if the member opposite has suggestions on what more we need to do, I would be most interested in hearing that.

I can assure the House that when I became aware of this, I acted immediately. I took the appropriate steps. If there’s more that the member opposite thinks I need to do, I want to hear from her.

MINING INDUSTRY

Mrs. Amrit Mangat: My question is for the Minister of Northern Development and Mines.

Ontario is blessed to have a beautiful north rich with natural resources. It is important to preserve the natural beauty of the north, but at the same time it’s also important to promote and ensure the sustainable development of natural resources. The process of such development must take into consideration the interests and aspirations of all stakeholders and for the benefit of all Ontarians.

Minister, will you inform this House about the modernizing of the Mining Act? How will it help the sustainable development of natural resources?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I want to thank the member from Mississauga–Brampton South for that great question. Certainly, we want to acknowledge the process of modernizing the Mining Act, a very important piece of legislation, and now the supporting regulations are part of a very extensive consultation process. In the two-year period between January 2010 and 2012, we held over 70 discussions and consultation sessions with aboriginal groups and communities, industry stakeholders, environmental organizations and a series of municipal representatives.

One of our key stakeholders is the Ontario Mining Association. I want to share a quote from Chris Hodgson, the president of the OMA, who, members here will know, was previously Minister of Northern Development and Mines in the mid-1990s. Here’s their quote:

“The Ontario Mining Association appreciates the consultative and focused approach to the development of the new Mining Act regulations. Ontario competes with other jurisdictions for mining investment, and a clearly defined regulatory environment is critical to ensuring the province continues as a mining leader.”

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mrs. Amrit Mangat: Minister, it’s great to hear that you have done commendable work to ensure meaningful changes to the Mining Act so that Ontario remains one of the best places in the world for mining exploration and mining investment.

Can the minister share with this House how modernizing of the Mining Act will impact stakeholders, northern communities and economic growth?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Thank you again to the member for the question. One of our goals with the modernized Mining Act is to provide certainty and clarity, and encourage early engagement, obviously, and ongoing relationship-building with aboriginal communities.

We’ve instituted a permanent, focused flow-through tax credit of 5% to encourage investment in mineral exploration and significant tax benefits for new or expanding mines, particularly for new mines in remote areas; and extended the Northern Industrial Energy Rate Program, a huge program—subject of course to annual program funding approval—which supports northern Ontario’s largest industrial consumers in reducing energy costs, sustaining employment and maintaining the sector’s global competitiveness.

We continue to invest in services such as geological mapping and the digitalization of geoscience information to help Ontario’s mineral exploration sector identify areas of economic opportunity—a hugely important piece of legislation, and we’re grateful for all the support—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is to the Premier. Yesterday we reached a new low in the growing gas plant scandal. In an embarrassing spectacle at the justice committee, two former energy ministers played dumb rather than providing answers. Throw in the current minister, and the theme song for this debacle is Three Blind Mice.

Premier, I’m worried, not that performances like yesterday undermine your credibility—not that there’s much left—but what worries me is investors seeing this cast of characters that this scandal has produced and questioning if Ontario is really a place to do business. Isn’t it time to stop playing this dangerous game with Ontario’s future by finally showing some leadership and providing the real cost to cancel the Oakville plant?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you very much—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Premier, just a moment, please.

I’m going to mention this: I’m not particularly impressed with the tone used. Although it did not use unparliamentary language, it is not the race to the top that I’ve been requesting. I would ask all questioners and people giving the answer that you consider that, please, to keep this place in good decorum.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I know the government House leader will want to speak to the events at committee, but I really think that at this moment in our history in the province, it’s very important that all parties work together. We’re here in a minority Parliament. Unfortunately, the Leader of the Opposition has said that his party is opposed to the budget before having read it, and I don’t understand that way of doing politics, but that’s what has been said.

I don’t think that we should, as a Parliament, be intent on an unnecessary election. I think that we should be trying to work together. I would invite the member opposite to work with us. I would invite the party opposite to work with us. I think that’s what the people of Ontario are looking for as we go into this budget. I would at least ask that the party opposite read the budget before they vote against it.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Premier, here’s how bad it is: The only one that seems to be making sense over there is the member for Mississauga–Streetsville, and last week people called him a space cadet.

Interjections.

Mr. Steve Clark: Withdrawn.

I think he has finally come down from the clouds. I’m actually going to quote him. It’s a quote from the Toronto Star. The member from Mississauga–Streetsville said, “It’s our responsibility as a government if we’ve got” something new “to add that we add it as soon as we know it.”

Premier, you know the true cost of the Oakville plant now. You just want to bring the OPA boss in to be your fall guy again. Well, the buck stops with you, Premier, not a bureaucrat. Will you take Mr. Delaney’s advice and do something responsible and tell us the cost of the Oakville plant cancellation?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: This is absolutely outrageous. The government went forward yesterday—you want to talk about yesterday at committee? We went forward with a motion to have a special meeting where the OPA could come in and answer all the questions the opposition had; they voted against it.

We asked the Leader of the Opposition to come on Tuesday morning; they attempted to block it through a motion that we put forward. The Premier came to this chamber last night for two late shows, and two of their members chose not to participate in them.

If anyone has an apology about what happened yesterday related to the gas plant file, it’s the members of that party over there.

HEALTH CARE

Mr. Paul Miller: My question is to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. Last year, Hamilton fell in love with Nicole Cassavetes. This 14-year-old young woman and her family battled numerous hardships while Nicole awaited a heart transplant. Tragically, two weeks after the transplant, Nicole died.

Today is the first anniversary of Nicole’s death. Her family is here today, speaking publicly about their year-long battle to get answers surrounding her treatment and passing at Sick Kids Hospital.

Why does this family have to go through such great lengths to get answers in our health care system? How can the minister help them today to get the answers they need?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you to the member opposite. I would like to welcome family members here. This is a case that I am not familiar with. It would have been preferable had the member notified me of this case so I could have more information for the family. I would be more than happy to meet with the family after question period to understand what questions they have.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Paul Miller: Nicole’s family continues to be haunted by questions regarding her care. They have quietly worked through all the proper channels over the past year, but they still are without answers.

The buck needs to stop here, Minister. The existing oversight in our health care system is clearly failing Ontarians. For families like the Cassaveteses, having an independent third party to answer their questions and help guide them through would make a world of difference to them and many Ontarians.

Speaker, will this minister listen to the families like Nicole’s and commit to Ombudsman oversight of our hospitals today?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: As I said in the first question, I will be more than happy to meet with the family after question period, and I can learn more about this situation and make sure that you get answers that you deserve.

HOSPITAL FUNDING

Mr. Phil McNeely: This question is to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. Minister, Ontario’s small and rural hospitals are an integral part of the communities they serve. Not only are these hospitals vital for providing care in a timely, efficient fashion, but many Ontarians rely on their local hospitals to provide a wide variety of services. But there’s no doubt people living in rural communities face some unique challenges. Ensuring our small and rural hospitals continue to provide excellent care for all Ontarians is of critical importance.

Speaker, through you to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, could the minister please update the House on what our government is doing to strengthen our rural hospitals?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I thank the member from Ottawa–Orléans for his passionate advocacy on this issue. I can assure you that we are committed to those small and rural hospitals that are so important in their communities.

I was recently in Seaforth, where I was able to announce some of the projects that were being funded by a special $20-million fund for small and rural hospitals. I was very impressed by the innovation, by the transformation that is under way in our small and rural—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Huron–Bruce, come to order, and the member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound is warned.

Carry on.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I was extremely impressed by the innovation that was being demonstrated by these projects that will strengthen access to care in small and rural communities. We are determined to provide all Ontarians, no matter where they live, with access to the right care, at the right time, at the right place.

I was very pleased that four of the 23 new hospitals are in rural Ontario—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Phil McNeely: Thank you, Minister, for your response. I’m glad to hear the new Ontario government takes the needs of small and rural hospitals seriously.

Improving and modernizing these hospitals is critical to ensuring they remain effective, efficient and accessible to the communities they serve. Providing access to the right care at the right time and in the right place supports Ontario’s Action Plan for Health Care. It is part of the new Ontario government’s effort to build a strong economy and a fair society for the benefit of all.

I recently heard some good news about rural hospitals’ funding in southwestern Ontario. Speaker, through you to the minister: What are some specific examples of efforts our government has undertaken to strengthen and improve small and rural hospitals in this part of the province?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: The Minister of Rural Affairs.

Hon. Jeff Leal: I want to thank the member for his question. Of course, we know that rural communities have unique health care. That’s why we’re making important investments. Just this last Monday, I had the opportunity to visit Wingham on the west coast of Ontario, and Mount Forest. I experienced warm hospitality from the member from Huron–Bruce and the member from Perth–Wellington.

Our government is supporting renovations and improvements at the Wingham and District Hospital and the Waterloo Wellington LHIN. I was very pleased to join with the members—and I had a great lunch in Wingham at Grumpy’s café. All the talk there that day was about the new Chinese investment for two casting plants in Wingham, Ontario. It was a good-news day to be in Wingham, Ontario.

We’ll continue to make strategic investments in rural Ontario. That’s what our new government is all about, and that’s what we’re doing each and every day.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Michael Harris: My question is to the Premier. Yesterday, while the Premier was busy buying off the NDP, or, as they’re now known, the Liberal farm team, the justice—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. First of all, sometimes it is hard to hear unparliamentary language because of all the chatter, and second of all, I got it. The member will withdraw.

Mr. Michael Harris: Withdrawn.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Finish your question, please.

Mr. Michael Harris: The justice committee heard from former energy ministers Duguid and Bentley. Given the continued evasion and selective amnesia of Liberal witnesses, it’s not surprising that both of them denied having any knowledge of a $712-million offer to TransCanada.

Speaker, we can accept that Minister Duguid may not have known since Premier McGuinty chose to cut him out, not trusting him with this file. What we can’t accept, though, is that the Premier and the energy minister are as clueless as Minister Duguid.

The TransCanada negotiations went to cabinet. We know that. We also know that Premier Wynne was chair of cabinet. The Premier knows what it cost to cancel the Oakville plant, so why doesn’t she just come clean right here, right now?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, it’s beyond incredible. Government members yesterday put forward a plan where the OPA would appear in front of the committee to answer all the questions as technical as any member wanted, to go through the entire process by which these various plants were dealt with. They voted no. They’re demanding answers from the Premier. She shows up for a late show last night; they don’t participate.

We have some questions on this side of the House about the costing that the PC Party had when they put out pamphlets like the one that I quoted from earlier, and yet when we attempted to call the Leader of the Opposition, they tried to block it. Perhaps in the supplementary he will confirm to this Legislature whether the Leader of the Opposition will appear next Tuesday at 8:30 a.m. to answer our questions.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Harris: Speaker, back to the Premier: It must be difficult for the Liberal members to watch the Premier’s credibility evaporate each and every passing day. And while the Liberal apologists in the NDP are willing to excuse any scandal, no matter how large or how egregious, as long as they get bought off, we in the PC caucus are determined to get answers—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): No, I’ve got to point it out before you do. The member will withdraw.

Mr. Michael Harris: Withdrawn.

Speaker, the gas plant scandal is knocking on the Premier’s door. She was the chair of cabinet. Her name is on the documents. She was briefed on “buckets of costs.” The Premier should save Minister Chiarelli the run down the hallway and save him the aggravation. Will she come clean and reveal the costs of the Oakville cancellation right here, right now?

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, if you want to talk about knocking on someone’s door, let’s talk about the Leader of the Opposition, who made a YouTube video where he stood there with his adoring PC candidates in a crowd of five or six onlookers and said that if he was elected, it would be “done, done, done.”

It was his candidate, Mary Anne DeMonte-Whelan, who put out this pamphlet saying, “The only party that will”—underlined, Mr. Speaker—“stop the Sherway power plant is the Ontario PC Party.”

Again, why are all the honourable members over there failing to answer my very simple question? Next Tuesday morning, 8:30 a.m., will the Leader of the Opposition be there to answer questions? Later in the day, the Premier will be there to answer questions. We’d like the OPA to come forward, but they keep blocking it.

ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH

Ms. Sarah Campbell: To the Premier: It has been almost a year since the federal government decided to shut down the Experimental Lakes Area, a world-renowned site.

After much pressure from within Canada and across the globe, the Ontario government announced today that it has finally seen the light. It has finally seen the light. It has only taken a year. They finally realized and recognized the importance of keeping the ELA operational.

But your announcement didn’t provide any details at all as to what funding it will put in place and what exactly you’re willing to do to save the Experimental Lakes Area.

My question is straightforward: Is the deal final, and what commitment has your government made to ensure that this important site remains open?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I am so pleased that the member opposite has asked this question. I think it is just fantastic. I know that she cares about this issue.

It was about a year ago that I was in Kenora and I met with Mayor Canfield. He was driving me around; we were talking about bridges and roads. He talked to me about the Experimental Lakes Area. I was very concerned, because there was a question about whether it was going to survive. It is a federal project, as the member opposite knows.

So I am thrilled that we are stepping up to the plate, that we are going to work with the government of Manitoba, with the federal government, with the Institute for Sustainable Development, and we are going to come to an arrangement where this terrific and unique science endeavour will be able to go forward.

We know that the operating costs are up to $2 million. We have said that we are going to support this. There are some details to be worked out in terms of capital costs. That’s what the negotiation is about.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Sarah Campbell: I would like to take the opportunity to thank everyone in my riding and across Canada who stepped up and fought hard to keep the Experimental Lakes open. It was through their petitions, their town halls, their statements, debates in this House and press conferences across the world that this government has finally seen the light. This site is not about politics; it’s about groundbreaking research. People are looking—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): We’re getting there. Just settle down. I would ask the Minister of the Environment to take a bit of a break.

Ms. Sarah Campbell: As I said, this site is not about politics; it’s about groundbreaking research. People are looking to this provincial government for a real plan. This government is not providing the basic answers to some of the most important questions around the ELA.

People are desperate to know who will pay the operating costs, who will cover the liability and what steps have been taken to ens