British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, March 13, 2003

H0313pm-14

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, March 13, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 12, Number 14 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon.

Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon.

George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon.

Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon. Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management and Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries ..................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon.

Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, John (L).........................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn................................................................John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Thursday, March 13, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 5505 Introduction and First Reading of Bills ........................................................................................ ......................................... 5506 Procurement Services Act (Bill 23) Hon. S.

Santori Statements (Standing Order 25B).............................................................................................................................. .............. 5506 Journée Internationale de la Francophonie R. Stewart NoRooz celebration R. Sultan AMBER alert system B. Penner Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 5508 Eligibility review for disability benefits J. MacPhail Hon. M. Coell B.C. Hydro agreement with Accenture P. Nettleton Hon. R.

Neufeld Seniors facilities and non-profit sector W. Cobb Hon. K. Whittred Early childhood development S. Orr Hon. L. Reid Eligibility review for disability benefits J. MacPhail Hon. M. Coell Petitions ...................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 5510 J.

MacPhail Tabling Documents .............................................................................................................. .................................................... 5510 Public Service Benefit Plan Act, annual report for year ending March 31, 2002 Hon. G. Collins Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 5510 Estimates: Ministry of Education (continued) V. Anderson Hon. C. Clark J. MacPhail B. Suffredine R. Nijjar I. Chong R. Hawes

5505 THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 The House met at 2:04 p.m. Introductions by Members Hon. G. Halsey-Brandt: I am pleased to welcome to this chamber the Hon. Stéphane Dion, president of the Queen's Privy Council and Minister of Intergovern- mental Affairs for the government of Canada. Minister Dion is in British Columbia this week to talk about the new federal action plan for official languages that was announced yesterday in Ottawa by the Prime Minister and Minister Dion.

We look forward to expanding the Canada–B.C. partnership with services to the franco- phone community and French-language programs in British Columbia. He is accompanied in the gallery by three staff members: Robert Asselin, Dan Hurly and Anne Scot- ten. Would the House please make them welcome. [1405] Hon. S. Hagen: Today in the members' gallery we have special guests from New Zealand. His Excellency Wade Armstrong is the high commissioner for New Zealand to Canada, and he is accompanied by Tony O'Brien, consul general of New Zealand at Vancouver.

High Commissioner Armstrong will be leaving Canada shortly, and he is visiting Victoria to make some good- bye calls. We wish him well. Would you please join me in giving them a warm welcome. R. Stewart: It gives me great pleasure to introduce several members of B.C.'s francophone community, who joined us in the legislative rotunda this afternoon for a celebration of the Journée internationale de la Francophonie. I'm pleased to introduce M.

Claude Provencher, the president, and Yseult Friolet, executive director, of Fédération des francophones de la Colom- bie-Britannique; Jean-Yves Defay, the consul general for France; Christopher Natuik from Heritage Canada; Diane Tremblay from Societé francophone de Victoria; Chantal Lefebvre from Regroupment des gens d'af- faires de Victoria; Vincent Portal from Societé de de- veloppement économique; Andrée Chenier et Paulette Bouffard from Éducacentre; and Nancy Taylor from Canadian Parents for French. Would the House please make them welcome.

Also, it's my pleasure, on behalf of the member for Esquimalt-Metchosin, to introduce the choir from l'École Brodeur in his riding. L'École Brodeur choir was able to sing some songs for us in celebration of the francophone community. Joining the students are Danielle Dupuis, Josee Paris, Jacques Gareau, Gisele Samson, Sandy Gau- det and Bertrand Dupin as well as Alain Robert. Je de- mande à l'Assemblie de les accueillir chaleureusement. Would the House please make them welcome. R. Sultan: In the House today are the grade 5 stu- dents from Holy Trinity School in North Vancouver, led by their teacher Ms.

Iacus and guided by principal Chris Sumner, parish priest Terry Larkin and parents who dig deep into their pockets to support this fine institution. Holy Trinity is first and foremost a Catholic school developing a full range of spiritual, intellectual, social and physical skills. Would the House please make them welcome. J. MacPhail: With us today in the gallery are teach- ing assistants from the University of British Columbia.

They're here to declare their respect for the power of the Legislature: Alex Aylett, Carey Hill, Kevin Gould, Stacy Bulloch, Meaghan Enright, Martin Duarte, Ben Friedland and Randal Clark. They're here to show, actually, how upset they are with the most recent legis- lation. They only took strike action as a last resort and would urge this government to take much different action in terms of urging the employer to do the right thing and bargain in good faith. Hon. C. Hansen: G e n o m e B .

C . i s a n o r g a n i z a t i o n that is part of the leading edge of research in Canada in making sure B.C. takes its place in the forefront of high-tech research and advanced research in Canada. I'm very pleased to welcome today Allan Winter, the president, and Bruce Schmidt, the vice-president. I hope the House will join me in welcoming them today. D. MacKay: Today, visiting from the northwest, I have two guests from the Burns Lake area and one from Prince George, I believe.

I have Richard Peters, chief of the Cheslatta band; Terry Kuzma from Prince George, who is the Cheslatta Forest Products director; and James Rakoshy, who is the forest manager for Cheslatta Forest Products. I would ask the House to please make them welcome. [1410] K. Stewart: I would like to make a short tribute to the Pitt Meadows Secondary School grade 8 basketball team, the Pitt Meadows Marauders. Under their coach Jim Haworth and the mentorship of Rich Goulet, they managed to lose only one game for them in their whole season.

Fortunately, it wasn't in the finals against the Delta Pacers, which they beat 54-52. I'm sure that as pleased as Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows are with the Pitt Meadows Marauders, Delta may be feeling the pinch a bit, so my sympathies go out to them. We all know that all the great athletes come out to Maple Ridge. I won't bore the House and make them jealous by listing them, but I would just like to ask the House to join us today in giving this group of young gentlemen a well-earned round of applause. R. Harris: Somewhere up there today we're joined by a very good friend of mine from Terrace: Frank Cut- ler.

Frank is one of those breed of loggers that's been around forever and does just a tremendous job of eking out a living in one of the toughest forest districts in this province. It's really a pleasure for me to have Frank

5506 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 down here today, and I would like the House to give him a really warm welcome. Hon. M. Coell: I would like to welcome to the House three former members: Peter Rolston, Art Cowie and Hugh Curtis. I've sort of followed Hugh Curtis for many years as an alderman in Saanich, mayor in Saanich, chair of the capital regional district and a min- ister of the government of B.C. I'm very pleased to wel- come them all here today and hope the House will make them welcome. Hon. G.

Abbott: I had the great pleasure this morn- ing of joining Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in opening certainly the biggest and what I suspect will be the most successful exhibition ever held at the Royal B.C. Museum: the Chinese Dragon Bones exhibit. It is huge and it's spectacular, and I'm sure it's going to be a great success. I'm delighted that there are so many kids in the gallery today because what I have here — Mr. Speaker, with your generous dispensation — is a dinosaur fin- gernail from approximately a hundred million years ago. It's slightly larger than my own, as you may note.

For kids of all ages, this show is going be spectacular. British Columbians get to see, before anyone else in the western world, these Chinese dinosaur treasures — some up to 250 million years old, if you can imagine. I'm also advised that one of the three rarest fossils in the world is part of the show. It's a dinosaur egg. No, it's not the Minister of Sustainable Resource Manage- ment. I take strong exception to that suggestion. It is in fact a dinosaur egg, perfectly intact. It's a fascinating exhibit.

I know it's one of the three rarest fossils in the world, because I've been told that by one of the leading experts in the world on dinosaur bones, or paleontol- ogy, Dr. Don Lessem, who is in the gallery today. I do want to say that Don is not only one of the world's leading authorities on dinosaurs, but I think he's also the world's funniest leading authority on dinosaurs. Although, I guess I'd have to say that I've only met one, but that doesn't necessarily diminish how funny he is. While I'm at it, could we all join together in a huge welcome for Dr. Don and wishing the Royal B.C.

Museum spectacular success on their very spectacular show. Mr. Speaker: It's apropos that this be followed by the Minister of Sustainable Resource Management. Hon. S. Hagen: I sincerely hope he's funnier than the minister. In the gallery today is Wally Smith, who is the president of the B.C. Milk Producers Association. Please make him welcome. [1415] Hon. G. Bruce: I just wanted to point out to the House that Wally Smith is actually one of my friends. Mr.

Speaker: I also, hon. members, wanted to point out to the House that the three former members who were introduced earlier are all members of the Associa- t i o n o f F o r m e r M L A s , a n d t h e y w i s h m e t o r e m i n d some of you that you may want to join their association at one time or another. Introduction and First Reading of Bills PROCUREMENT SERVICES ACT Hon. S. Santori presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Pro- curement Services Act. Hon. S. Santori: I move that Bill 23 be read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. S.

Santori: Bill 23 introduces new procure- ment legislation to replace an outdated Purchasing Commission Act in response to the new-era commit- ment to promote fair and open procurement in gov- ernment. The changes in the bill remove a commission structure that has not functioned for many years. It removes or replaces obsolete terminology and authori- ties, provides statutory authority for acquisition and disposition activities on behalf of ministries and those public sector agencies choosing to participate.

It pro- vides statutory authority to recommend procurement practices, to support fair and open procurement in government. It supports government's shared service initiative and supports government's deregulation ini- tiative. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House. Bill 23 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) JOURNÉE INTERNATIONALE DE LA FRANCOPHONIE R. Stewart: I'm pleased that the Speaker and many other members of this Legislature were able to join in the celebration of Journée Internationale de la Franco- phonie over the noonhour. As the MLA responsible for francophone affairs in B.C., I want to thank the repre- sentatives of the francophone community, the wonder- ful choir from L'École Brodeur and the many other francophones and francophiles who came out for this joyous occasion.

Each year we recognize the Journée de la Franco- phonie in honour of an international agreement signed by francophone countries on March 20, 1970, in Nige- ria. This time of year is a opportunity to embrace the francophone culture and celebrate diversity. For exam-

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5507 ple, a few weeks ago I participated with the member for Nanaimo in the festival de sucre d'érable in his com- munity, and my family and I spent most of last week- end celebrating the Festival du Bois in my community of Maillardville, celebrating the richness of our heritage and culture. Of course, this week was designated as French Im- mersion Week in British Columbia. Il me fait grand plaisir d'annoncer la proclama- tion du 20 mars comme Journée de la francophonie.

Notre gouvernement travaille en étroite collabora- tion avec la communauté francophone et le gou- vernement fédéral pour mettre en place des services publics de qualité en français dans des secteurs clés comme la santé, la justice et le développement économique. Aujourd'hui nous avons lancé une page bilingue sur le site web du gouvernement pour fa- ciliter l'accès à l'information et aux services en fran- çais pour tous. [It gives me great pleasure to announce the proclamation of March 20 as the Journée de la Francophonie.

Our government is working closely with the francophone community and the federal government to offer quality public services in French, particularly in key areas such as health, justice and economic development. Today we launched a bilingual web page on the government web site to facilitate access to information and services in French.] [French text and translation provided by R.

Stewart.] I want to thank the francophone community and their regional and provincial associations for their commitment to their language and culture and for working constructively with this government to make services more accessible to all British Columbians. I want to recognize my caucus and cabinet colleagues for their support and thank my federal counterparts — especially Minister Dion, who joins us in the House today — w h o h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g w i t h u s t o p r o v i d e better services to B.C.'s francophones through our framework agreement.

There are many celebrations taking place around the province. This week many members of caucus were able to share poutine and tourtière. I ask you to join with your francophone communities around the prov- ince this week. Merci. [1420] NOROOZ CELEBRATION R. Sultan: I rise to ask this House to acknowledge NoRooz or new day, or the first day of the new year, which our Iranian community will celebrate on March 21. NoRooz marks the spring equinox, when the sun is, shall we say, equally north and south. It's an ancient celebration of the renewal of life.

NoRooz has its roots going back at least 3,000 years in the religions of an- cient Persia. It's been celebrated by Persian-speaking cultures from ancient Mesopotamia all the way to Badakshann and Bokhara on the borders of China. Per- sian society has a legitimate claim to having produced one of the world's first working democracies and an ancient code that cherishes peace, justice and beauty, while regarding all disorder and threats to life as evil. Today the Iranian Canadian community has a large and rapidly growing presence in British Columbia.

Our more than 30,000 citizens of Iranian background bring culture, advanced education and superb business skills to many communities, particularly those on the North Shore. We are pleased to join these remarkable people in the celebration of NoRooz. AMBER ALERT SYSTEM B. Penner: Y e s t e r d a y m a n y o f u s r e j o i c e d a t n e w s that 15-year-old Elizabeth Smart of Utah had been found and reunited with her family nine months after being abducted from her bedroom in Salt Lake City. This truly is wonderful news, but sadly, it's not the usual outcome of this type of child abduction.

Accord- ing to a study by the U.S. Department of Justice, in 74 percent of abduction homicides the child is killed within the first three hours. I'm sure we would all like to do more to protect our most precious resource, which isn't oil. It's not gold; it's not even our forests. It is our children. Today Elizabeth Smart's father challenged U.S. legislators to get on with implementing a national AMBER alert plan, a volun- tary partnership between law enforcement agencies and the private sector.

Following an agreed-upon pro- tocol, police quickly alert commercial radio and televi- sion outlets during the critical first few moments fol- lowing a child abduction to provide vital details. As of today, 39 states have announced intentions to adopt or already have adopted AMBER alert plans, and a num- ber of Canadian provinces have also announced such plans. The systems in the U.S. are credited with recover- ing 49 children so far, including a high-profile case last August when two teenage girls were abducted in Or- ange County in California.

The girls were found about 12 hours later, just as it appeared their abductor was getting ready to kill them. With the provincewide implementation of the new PRIME information-sharing system for police in British Columbia, we will soon have a solid foundation for such an AMBER alert plan here. A comprehensive AMBER alert plan in B.C. would provide another tool for police by alerting the public and using their eyes and ears in the search for missing children.

Beyond PRIME and an AMBER alert plan for B.C., there's still more that can be done, including tougher sentences for child abusers and an expansion of Can- ada's federal DNA database for convicted criminals to give police additional opportunities to catch and iden- tify criminals before they strike again. Let's be thankful for the safe return of Elizabeth Smart, and let's all work to make our province a safer place for children.

5508 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 Oral Questions ELIGIBILITY REVIEW FOR DISABILITY BENEFITS J. MacPhail: Earlier throughout this week, we've learned how this government is attacking seniors who are poor, students who are poor and foster kids who are poor. For days now, the Minister of Human Re- sources has given confused and contradictory answers to some simple questions about the disability review. He said the budget for the program has gone up this year. Wrong. It's being cut by $4 million. He said 6,000 new British Columbians have the assistance that they need. Wrong.

His latest stats show, at best, a minor increase. He said the purpose of the disability review is not to take benefits away. Wrong again. The opposition has obtained an internal ministry communications plan that I'll quote from: "The ministry expects that about 9,130 disability 2 clients — 20 percent of the caseload — will not meet the new criteria." Will he now come clean and admit that his plan all along was to kick people off disability benefits to save money and keep his bonus? [1425] Hon. M.

Coell: The member knows that we changed the legislation last year, that 90 percent of the people who were on then disability 2 were moved di- rectly into the persons with disability, and there was no review necessary. She also knows that 14,000 needed reviews due to the lack of information on their files either because of new eligibility requirements or be- cause the old files had not been updated for a long time. I think the member should also know there are only approximately 500 people left for us to contact. We have contacted, and….

The rest of the review forms have been received, are in doctors' offices or health assessors' offices or are on their way in, so we have ample time for assessments to be done and further con- tact to be made. I would also like to comment that 6,600 new applications have been received. That's 6,600 peo- ple who believe the new designation fits their needs. We also have 3,200 more cases who are receiving disability assistance since we took office. We've also increased from $200 to $400 the amount of dollars that people with disabilities can earn and keep.

We also have the third-highest rate of disability assistance in Canada, and we've increased the disability employ- ment programs by $11 million. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplementary question. J. MacPhail: Clearly, the minister spends too much time reading his own news releases, but I'll tell you, the spin just doesn't fly. He has spent millions forcing dis- abled people to go through this review… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. MacPhail: …with one purpose in mind: to kick them off and cut costs so that he can keep his bonus. It's all very well and good… Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Order. J. MacPhail: …for the minister to try to spin back- ward when he gets caught out, but the document proves exactly what they had in mind. Again to the minister, a simple question: how many people does he expect will lose their benefits to meet his budget targets? Hon. M. Coell: I think what the member fails to realize is that we're trying to focus the moneys we have on those who are most in need. The disability caseload, and she should know this from being minister, is fluid. There are people who come on and go off every year. I think that at the end of this review…. Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Hon. M. Coell: At the end of this review process, I think you'll find there are actually more people receiv- ing disability assistance. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplementary. J. MacPhail: It is incredible that this minister stands up and repeats statistics and claims that because he says it, it's true. His own stats from his ministry show he is not accurate. The budget has been cut, and there are a few more who have been on DB-2.

A political appointee in the public affairs writing a communica- tions plan doesn't just pick a number like 9,130 out of the air. A political appointee doesn't say the caseload will be reduced by 20 percent. I t m u s t h av e b e e n b a s e d o n a n an a l y s i s t h at t h e minister did to justify his cost-cutting exercise. The minister should just tell the truth. He should admit what his own documents reveal. From the start of this exercise, it was about kicking people off bene- fits, but… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. J. MacPhail: …if the minister says that's not true…. Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Order, please. Would the member please now put her question.

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5509 J. MacPhail: Absolutely. If the minister says it's not true, is not accurate, all he has to do is prove it. Table the documents he used to convince his cabinet that they should spend $3 million to force disabled British Columbians to submit to a review of the benefits. Will he table that document now? Hon. M. Coell: Right from the beginning, this member has just fearmongered…. J. MacPhail: Just show us the documents. Hon. M.

Coell: Right from the beginning of this process, which is six months old now, this member has fearmongered with her friends and has frightened people with disabilities. I can tell you that at the end of this process, some people will come on, and some peo- ple will go off. There will be more people receiving disability assistance. [1430] B.C. HYDRO AGREEMENT WITH ACCENTURE P. Nettleton: I have a question for the minister re- sponsible for B.C. Hydro.

To the minister: I have made a formal request of the office of the auditor general of British Columbia to investigate the nature and circum- stances of the B.C. government's recently signed con- tract between the private company Accenture and B.C. Hydro. Minister, are you aware that people all across this province have serious concerns about the deal B.C. Hydro and this government have made with Accen- ture? Hon. R. Neufeld: B.C. Hydro has entered into an agreement to outsource some services with a firm named Accenture British Columbia.

This deal will save ratepayers of British Columbia Hydro $250 million over the next five years. This contract will guarantee that service levels will be no less than they are today and in fact will get better in time. It is a new business in Vancouver that can secure other business from around North America. This is a good deal for B.C. Hydro, and this is a good deal for the ratepayers of British Colum- bia Hydro. Mr. Speaker: The member for Prince George– Omineca has a supplementary question. P.

Nettleton: Minister, are you then saying that the people of British Columbia are happy that the govern- ment has handed over control of their public utility to a private company named Accenture, which was called Anderson Consulting before 2001 — an American company which is blacklisted in California, registered in the Bahamas to avoid paying taxes and is now regis- tering in British Columbia? Is your government now making B.C. a banana republic and a tax shelter for every disreputable company that needs a place to hide and profit outside of their own country's laws?

Is that what this government means when it says B.C. is open for business? Hon. R. Neufeld: Well, as usual, this member is ill- informed. This company operates in over 40 countries around the world. It operates in Canada, has a business office in Canada and now has a head office in British Columbia where they will pay British Columbia taxes, where they will be able to access $58 billion worth of outsourcing in North America in the future, which will grow that business and create jobs in British Columbia — private sector jobs. That's the kind of investment we need in British Columbia.

I would say to the member, who tries to talk about a company that's registered in Bermuda, that he should look around a little bit and see how many companies are registered in Bermuda. I mean, if you own Sun Life As- surance, which owns Clarica…. Their head office is in Bermuda. Just because of that, this member assails that company, but this is a good deal for British Columbia. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. SENIORS FACILITIES AND NON-PROFIT SECTOR W. Cobb: My question… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Could we have some order, please. The member for Cariboo South has the floor. W.

Cobb: …is to the Minister of State for Interme- diate, Long Term and Home Care. For years, non-profit societies around B.C. provided health care services for seniors through community-owned facilities. Unfortu- nately, under the previous NDP government and their no-direction-in-health-care, they expropriated many of these facilities with little or no public consultation or compensation. Can the minister tell my constituents if there's any hope that these facilities may be returned to the societies that started them? Hon. K.

Whittred: Our government values the ex- tremely important role that non-profit societies play, unlike the previous government, which was interested in taking over their property. We have committed to building 5,000 beds with the assistance of the non- profit sector. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. [1435] Hon. K. Whittred: That is the reason that one of the very first actions this government took was to amend the Health Authorities Act to repeal the right of health

5510 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 authorities to expropriate the property of societies. In specific answer to the member's question, we have in fact developed a policy where both parties are inter- ested in transferring property from the health authority to the non-profit society. We have developed a process to accommodate that end, and I would be happy to work with the member in this process. EARLY CHILDHOOD DEVELOPMENT S. Orr: M y q u e s t i o n i s t o t h e M i n i s t e r o f S t a t e f o r Early Childhood Development.

A child's early years are critical to the course and outcome of their life. It has been shown that children's development from birth to age six can affect their schooling, their job choices and their lifelong health. Can the minister please tell us what her ministry is doing to ensure that our children have the best possible start in life? Hon. L. Reid: I have the privileged position of hav- ing a Premier who's prepared to go forth from the base of good science. Many of you will know that Dr.

Clyde Hertzman has come on to assist this province in driv- ing better public policy regarding the best learning for youngsters in our province. The human early learning partnership in British Columbia goes forward and involves… Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. L. Reid: …more than 100 university re- searchers today who are all about discovering what, in fact, should be on the résumé of a typical five- year-old when they cross the threshold into their first kindergarten classroom.

That work, the map- ping work across our province, the EDI — early development indicator — will drive the best public policy that, indeed, will guarantee a very, very fine outcome for our youngest learners in British Co- lumbia. ELIGIBILITY REVIEW FOR DISABILITY BENEFITS J. MacPhail: B a c k t o t h e M i n i s t e r o f H u m a n R e - sources. I guess he's trying to deny this document. Maybe he'll try to deny this document, his own monthly statistics from January 2003. At least a few British Columbians are being told they get to keep their benefits, but thousands of others are being forced to wait.

His own ministry has acknowledged that. They have no idea what criteria will be used to boot them off disability — a permanent designation, by the way. The legislation doesn't tell them. The minister didn't tell them what the criteria were in the debate in this Legis- lature. The minister certainly won't come clean during question period. So again to the minister: what criteria are front-line workers using to determine who loses their benefits, and will he table the manual that contains those criteria today? Hon. M.

Coell: As the member knows, the review forms are filled out by clients, medical doctors and health professionals. The individuals are adjudicated based on that information. I think the member has to… Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Let us hear the answer. Hon. M. Coell: …go back a few years to when her own government was in. In 1991, when unemployment rates were going down, what happened to the caseload for people who were on temporary assistance? It dou- bled.

The management of the former government, without any studies, without any checks and balances, could have built 12 fast ferries on the welfare experi- ment they used. This government is working with people to make sure the y find employment. This gov- ernment is working… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. M. Coell: … w i t h p e o p l e t o m a k e s u r e t h e y achieve their highest potential. [End of question period.] Petitions J. MacPhail: I rise today to table a petition signed by 2,500 people living in Salmon Arm who are opposed to the closure of Pioneer Lodge.

They point out that the health of 75 seniors is being threatened by forced relo- cation and that the community is losing valuable long- term care beds. Tabling Documents Hon. G. Collins: I have the honour to present the twenty-sixth annual report of the Public Service Benefit Plan Act, year ended March 31, 2002. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: I call Committee of Supply, and for the information of members we'll be debating the estimates of the Ministry of Education. [1440] Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; H. Long in the chair.

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5511 The committee met at 2:48 p.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EDUCATION (continued) On vote 19: ministry operations, $4,859,939,000 (continued). V. Anderson: I'm looking at the minister's service plan. I'd like to ask for clarification on some items, if I might. On page 15 of the service plan we talk about surveys of students to understand where they are at in their development. One of those surveys is the survey on social development, the percentage of public school students that report overall satisfaction in human and social development.

I'm wondering if the minister would explain to us what the human and social development category cov- ers in that survey. That's over against stewardship on the top, surveyed environment and academic in the others. [1450] Hon. C. Clark: I'm advised that the topics we cover in that questionnaire, which is conducted in conjunc- tion with the foundation skills assessment in grades 4, 7 and 10, cover off much of the research that has been provided by Clyde Hertzman in some of the work he's done.

We've tried to learn from that — questions about integrity and how they view ethical questions, racism and how they view some of the questions around mul- ticulturalism, how they think about democracy and civic involvement and those types of questions. V. Anderson: I was curious because I noticed that the percentages in those particular areas are the lowest percentages we have, and they seem to decrease with the age of the young people and the grade they're in. Is there a particular plan in the curriculum to relate to these items as they are developed in the curriculum program? Hon. C.

Clark: It's difficult to compare the percent- ages in this human social development questionnaire with the percentages we get, for example, on founda- tion skills assessment. It's impossible to compare test- ing tools that way. This is, though, a baseline year, and we're always looking to tune up the questionnaire and make sure it works as well as it can. I'm sure we'll be making some changes this year to make sure it works better. V. Anderson: I appreciate that this is a baseline in this current year, and we'll look forward to it in future years. It's a simple question perhaps.

On page 17 — again, we're looking at developmental process, talking about the percentage of principals who are satisfied with school bandwidths — I'm not sure if the general public will understand what is meant by school bandwidths, so I thought it might be useful to have it explained for them. Hon. C. Clark: We're trying to make sure that all schools are connected with more than just dial-up ac- cess to the Internet. Anybody who uses the Internet, who has an Internet connection and has had one for some time, will remember when they had to push a button and it would dial a phone.

You might get through; you might get a busy signal. In some commu- nities that is their only access to the Internet. We want to make sure all communities have the broadband access, which means they have that instan- taneous connection to the Internet, that is not just im- portant for regular access but important for the size of documents that one can transport through the system as well. You can't download big websites, for example, or even sometimes medium-sized or small websites, if y o u o n l y h a v e d i a l - u p a c c e s s . W e w a n t t o m a k e s u r e that access is equitable across the province.

We have a few hundred communities that aren't hooked up and don't have, we think, sufficient broadband access, and we're working on that. V. Anderson: M o v i n g o n t o p a g e 1 8 i n t h e p l a n , talking about the satisfaction of the parents with the school process. I realize that community schools aren't funded under the Ministry of Education at this point, but I'm wondering if the minister can reflect on the significance that community school programs have had in involving parents and families of the community in the total school process. Hon. C.

Clark: Community schools have had vary- ing levels of success in involving parents in schools. Some have had tremendous success; some have had a little more limited success. Not every school is desig- nated a community school, either, and receives funding for that. I believe that every single school should in- volve parents as fully and meaningfully as possible. That's why we created school planning councils, one in every school, with a majority of parents on the board. They will have, for the first time, guaranteed, meaning- ful input into the plans for growth for each of their schools. V.

Anderson: I'm wondering, then, if the minister would also elaborate for people the purpose and scope of the community planning council, which is a new program and very little understood by the community at large as yet. [1455] Hon. C. Clark: I'm guessing the member was refer- ring, perhaps, to a school planning council as opposed to a community planning council. We have a school planning council at every single school — one princi- pal, one teacher and three parents at the secondary level. I've stated my intention to try and make sure we can add a student, so that it's actually six people on the planning council.

They do a mini–accountability con-

5512 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 tract for every school. That means they go out, they look at their results, they set goals for improvement on those results based on the foundation skills assessment and other kinds of assessments they do in their school, and then they put together a plan to try and reach those goals. V. Anderson: Another question on page 21. I no- ticed the survey of principals and vice-principals indi- cating the amount of time they spend in the classroom. Is the suggestion here that they should be teaching in the classroom? Is this visitation in the classroom?

I'm wondering what the relationship is with both princi- pals and vice-principals that you're expecting as a re- sult of this question. Hon. C. Clark: We believe that instructional leader- ship, which is the role of a principal and vice-principal, means that they are in the classroom working with teachers, making sure the instructional methods are sound and assisting teachers where the instructional methods could be improved. That's part of the regular supervision of a school. Parents expect that kind of leadership from principals and vice-principals, and frankly, so do we in the ministry. V.

Anderson: Another area in which the parents are very concerned in my area of the city, where we have many older schools, is plans for earthquake up- grading. That's a major concern among many of my school parents. Hon. C. Clark: We provide $100 million a year to school districts for money to upgrade schools. It's a lot o f m o n e y . W e d i s t r i b u t e i t t h r o u g h o u t d i s t r i c t s , a n d they are able to use that for whatever purpose they want to try and improve the capital infrastructure of their schools.

The Ministry of Finance manages the seismic mitigation program, and I understand there was some discussion of that in those Finance estimates. J. MacPhail: We're just trying to figure out the flow of questions here. If I could carry on, on the issue of seismic upgrad- ing, we did have some discussion in the Ministry of Finance estimates about seismic upgrading, and I un- derstand that the seismic upgrading has been prepaid to school boards. Hon. C.

Clark: I don't want to stray too far into the Ministry of Finance estimates, and I don't want to really set a precedent in this discussion where we're talking about Ministry of Finance estimates. Those questions are better put to the Minister of Finance, if the member would like to explore those questions fur- ther. I know she did have some opportunity to talk to him about that during his estimates. My understanding is that the Ministry of Finance is prepaying those. J. MacPhail: Sorry. I made a statement; I didn't ask a question. That is my understanding. The minister is quite right; we had that discussion.

But what the Minis- ter of Finance couldn't answer and referred me to these estimates is…. The prepaying of the seismic upgrading which the Minister of Finance says was the full prepay of the $133 million over four years program that was started in '98, which is fine…. But the prepay to the school boards leaves the decisions for determining seismic upgrading to the school boards. I'm wondering whether the minister can say whether her expertise…. Let me ask this, then. Is there any expertise that re- mains in the Ministry of Education that assists school boards in determining those priorities? Hon. C.

Clark: Yes, that expertise still remains. [1500] J. MacPhail: I'm going to do a little bit of MLA casework here rather than the broader issue. For in- stance, there's one school in my riding that's been quite vociferous. I laud them, the students. I think ministry staff will know it's Vancouver Tech. In terms of work- ing with my school board…. So I'll now work with my school board on ensuring that that's paid. But does the school board still have access to…?

Let me put it this way: when I go to my school board, can I refer the school board experts in this area to informa- tion that can be gleaned from the Ministry of Education in order to come to a satisfactory conclusion to upgrading? I'm not in any way suggesting…. I will be going there strictly as an advocate, not in any other capacity. Hon. C. Clark: Yeah, there certainly are. The minis- try, I think, has been in contact with the Vancouver school board, so they know who the relevant people are to talk to about that. J. MacPhail: That was not as part of the order that I had given the minister.

Now we're going to move to targeted funding. We did have a discussion about that in the context of the Rozanski report. Under this govern- ment there has been a change so that in terms of fund- ing, am I correct in saying there's one area left of tar- geted funding, which is aboriginal program funding? Hon. C. Clark: That's correct. J. MacPhail: I want to explore what the conse- quences are of the change in the system. Under the previous funding formula….

I think the system of tar- geted funding expanded under the New Democrat government, but it certainly was in place in the 1980s, as well, under the Social Credit government. The pre- vious governments had a system to target funds to special needs students. Those funds were monitored by government, and in the monitoring, special education programs were protected. As a matter of fact, there was certainly a challenge made in the 1990s that school boards were spending beyond the targeted programs.

I know that the school boards still receive funding for special needs children, but as the minister acknowledged earlier this morning, there are no

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5513 strings attached now. What is the monitoring, if any, around spending for special needs children? Hon. C. Clark: We do random audits of school dis- tricts and make sure their numbers are what they say they are. Second, we are doing random audits of individual education plans, not something we've ever done be- fore. We're going to be going out and just checking that schools are actually putting in place the individual education plans that they are obliged to put in place under the law.

That's been a big source of complaint we've heard from parents of special needs children. We want to make sure those IEPs are in place. Third, accountability contracts will focus on out- comes. There will be, in each accountability contract, recognition of the fact that we need to disaggregate the data for special needs kids and make sure special needs kids are doing better year on year, just as we expect typical kids to be doing. J. MacPhail: What has the ministry found? Hon. C. Clark: We've done seven districts so far. We found varying levels of compliance with individual education plans.

We expect that the actual content of those reports will be made public within the next cou- ple of weeks. [1505] J. MacPhail: Let's just take the seven districts, then. I'd appreciate information on this question across the school system, but I'd be happy to do it just for the seven districts. How many fewer teachers are there now allocated to those districts that are teaching spe- cial education programs? Hon. C. Clark: We're looking at the outcomes for special needs kids — that's our focus — not just the inputs, which I think are less relevant than what they're actually achieving.

Some districts have decided to manage this differently than others. Some will say, "This child needs a teacher and a couple of aides," or, "These students need just a couple of aides," or they may need a couple of teachers. Different districts man- age those things differently, and it depends on the needs of the children in those individual classrooms. J. MacPhail: With respect, that's a little bit glib. There is an acknowledged role for special education teachers in every education system across Canada and, in fact, across North America.

For those special needs programs that require teachers in the seven districts — I actually would prefer the information across the sys- tem…. Has there been a reduction in special needs teachers doing special needs programs? Hon. C. Clark: The audits didn't make a special note of what the staffing levels were. They were inter- ested in the outcomes. J. MacPhail: What kind of audit addresses an out- come that doesn't include who's delivering the ser- vices? Hon. C.

Clark: The audit looks at the number of children in the school who are declared to be special needs by the school district and makes sure that the children actually being funded are there. There have been cases where we've overfunded districts, but there are also cases where we've underfunded districts, based on the number of special needs children in their schools. How they decide they want to teach those children is a decision we have decided is best left up to the school district. J.

MacPhail: How does an audit come up with out- comes if, indeed, you're not looking at the children themselves but just the funding of those children? Hon. C. Clark: The external review teams also go out and look at the outcomes for special needs chil- dren. They go and look at individual education plans and make sure those individual education plans are appropriate for the kids they're being built for and that the drawing up of those plans has involved the par- ents, the teachers and all the appropriate members of the community that need to be a part of the planning for that child. J.

MacPhail: I am less comforted by the minister's answers at the end than at the beginning, because the audit that the minister is doing is a funding audit. Those are not new, but with funding audits in the past, because they were targeted funding, the ministry then had to deliver the services attached to that funding. The audit- ing now is just to make sure, I guess, that the boards are getting the right amount of money, but there's then no follow-up to how the children are treated. How is it that people are supposed to know about how special needs children in our system are doing? Hon. C.

Clark: Clearly, there's a philosophical dif- ference between the government and the opposition on this question. We believe, as a government, and the philosophy that we ran on in the election is that school districts would have the autonomy to decide how they wanted to manage their budgets, including staffing for their schools. We are interested in the outcomes they are producing in terms of standards and making sure that kids are doing better year on year. We set those in place, and we monitor them.

How school districts reach those goals, however, is up to districts, and that is, I think, a philosophical difference between the government and the opposition. We could have a debate about the value of one approach over the other, but that's the approach our government has been taking for the last year and a half, and it's the approach we said we would take during the election. J. MacPhail: Well, we'll get into how this is affect- ing Vancouver district.

5514 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 I'm not sure why the minister suggests there's a philosophical difference at all. I'm just trying to seek information, with the shift from targeted funding to general funding, about how that affects children. That's what I'm trying to find out. Is it that parents are sup- posed to go school district by school district to figure out how many fewer or how many more teachers are allocated to special needs programs or what the out- comes are?

The minister just said she's more interested in outcomes than inputs, but how does she know what the outcomes are? [1510] Hon. C. Clark: We'll make sure that information on outcomes is available district by district and across the province. Parents can access that information. J. MacPhail: Is there a standard report form that the school boards use to report outcomes for students with special needs? Hon. C. Clark: Monitoring outcomes for special needs children is a little bit different than monitoring outcomes for typical children.

They don't necessarily engage in a provincewide testing exercise like the foundation skills assessment that's comparative and based on the expectation that kids are starting from much the same level. Special needs kids are all much more unique. That's why we call them unique kids. It's difficult to say: "Well, we've got a standard form for these very unique kids." What we are doing, though, is…. In accountability contracts we will be able to dis- aggregate the data for special needs kids.

We'll be able to have a discussion with each district about how those kids are doing this year and set goals for their im- provement overall in the following year. It is a little bit different from the foundation skills assessment exercise that we base much of our accountability contracts on for testing the whole system in general. J. MacPhail: Yes. I'm aware of that. That's why I'm trying to seek out this information. What's form 1530? Would that be a form that would be available to get information on special needs teaching? Hon. C. Clark: That form is submitted by districts.

They talk about their different staffing levels. Different districts call different staff different things. For exam- ple, some districts will identify administrative staff differently. Some will throw in principals, vice- principals; some won't. So it's not a fair measure across the system. J. MacPhail: W e l l , I 'm ju s t t r y i ng t o f i nd o u t wh at is. The minister just referred me to school boards. I know the minister has suggested that parents are going to have greater choice. So, how is it parents know where to enrol their children? Based on what informa- tion?

I'm trying to seek that information out. If parents have a special needs child, where would they go to find out how many special needs teachers there are, how many SEAs there are and what the programs are in that particular school district? Is that form 1530? Where will this information be available? Hon. C. Clark: I wouldn't suggest that any parent decide to send a child to a school based on staffing lev- els which would necessarily be from the previous year, before their child registered.

Schools and school dis- tricts respond to staffing needs based on the students that are in their schools, and that shifts around year to year. That's how school districts decide what their staffing levels are going to look like. I wouldn't really suggest that a parent go to a school district, for exam- ple, and say, "Well, I want to find out where these teachers were last year," because it won't necessarily be the same thing the following year. That's why we track enrolment, and that's why school districts need the power to be able to shift staff around.

When I talk about provincewide, though, and I talk about outcomes, I'm referring specifically to accountabil- ity contracts. Those are available provincewide and set goals for improvement we're expecting over the years. This year, in particular, we'll start being quite a bit more specific about the outcomes for special needs kids. [1515] J. MacPhail: Well, I wouldn't limit a parent's method at all on choosing where to send their children. I'm just trying to get the information about what par- ents look for. I think it's probably safe to say everything is retrospective, including accountability contracts.

So is it that the accountability contracts will have, on a district-by-district basis, outcomes for special needs students including staffing levels, including programs offered? Hon. C. Clark: There are goals for improvement that will be based on their results from the previous year. Those results will be accessible. More important is the goal that they'll be setting for the next year. Dif- ferent accountability contracts will have different plans for being able to achieve those goals, and that will be up to the individual districts. J.

MacPhail: I take it that the minister is saying form 1530 is not useful in this area. I think that's what she said. Hon. C. Clark: We are interested in outcomes — absolutely. J. MacPhail: I have no idea what that answer meant — none whatsoever. Teacher-librarians. What's the dialogue between the ministry and the association of teacher-librarians? Has there been any information provided to the ministry in terms of the number of teacher-librarians working in the system? Hon. C. Clark: We've talked to the association of teacher-librarians. Well, it's more that they've talked to

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5515 us and made some submissions to us. I can't tell the member categorically off the top of my head what those submissions have been and how recent they've been. If the member has some correspondence she'd like to share with me, I'd be delighted to have a look at it. Again, staffing decisions are made at the school dis- trict level, and those discussions, where necessary, we've directed to that level. J. MacPhail: Actually, this is the time when I get information from the government. I don't have any information.

I know discussions have taken place, and I'm trying to find out what the nature of those discus- sions was. It's my understanding — but it's only anec- dotal, so that's why I'm seeking out the real informa- tion — is that there are fewer teacher-librarians work- ing at every level of the education system. I'm wonder- ing: is there any different information the minister has? Hon. C. Clark: Well, there are 7,100 fewer children in our public education system this year than last, so it could be true that staffing has gone down for districts. J.

MacPhail: I think the minister is aware that there's a system of calculating how teachers work. It's an FTE system. I'm not quite sure why this information is so hard to get out of the ministry. It's just information, it's just data, and I think everything would indicate I'm trying to be balanced in my approach here to either put to rest some of the anecdotal stories that are out there or actu- ally seek out what is real information. I mean, I told people that I would be standing up here asking for the real information on teacher-librarians, and I can't get that from the ministry.

Let's move on to counsellors, then. How does the ministry keep track of counsellor services to our chil- dren? Hon. C. Clark: Well, again, we look at outcomes for school districts. We make sure they're meeting the ex- pectations they've set for themselves and in conjunc- tion with us. As I think the member can expect, with fewer children in the system, there are probably lower staffing levels in that area as well. J. MacPhail: The only way that would result, actu- ally, is if there were school closures.

If the minister is acknowledging there are fewer librarians because of school closures, then I guess we can calculate that our- selves — or the parents in Victoria, I should say, will be able to calculate that themselves. The parents in Prince George will be able to calculate that themselves, and the parents in the minister's own riding will be able to calculate that themselves.

Beyond that, there are staff- ing levels that are almost fixed, as I should say, because of the nature of one library per school. [1520] I just was asking the minister whether she has any indication of the staffing levels within that library. I'm finding it a little bit troubling, as I stand here — how much work parents have to do to figure all this out, given the change in targeted funding. Perhaps the minister could just explain the ac- countability contracts. I believe that we're into the sec- ond round of accountability contracts now.

Perhaps the minister could, because I haven't had time to do this — and I make no apologies for that whatsoever — give me an example of an accountability contract that's posted now that would have this information. Hon. C. Clark: Again, accountability contracts are focused on outcomes, and we're looking…. We very much relied on Dr. Elmore's research, which the mem- ber raised earlier, which suggests that you should focus on two or three things. The accountability contracts that she'll see posted this year will focus on literacy, discipline, behaviour issues around schools or nu- meracy, for example.

We're encouraging schools to focus on those specific things. The issue that the member raises about teacher- librarians and that there's always a teacher-librarian for every library isn't necessarily accurate. Lots of schools and school districts have for many, many years also used CUPE workers, who are not teacher-librarians or members of the teachers union, to help staff those li- braries. It's not necessarily fair to say that the number of teacher-librarians is always equal to the number of libraries around the province. J. MacPhail: I'd be happy if the minister had that information as well.

I'd be happy to have that informa- tion. That would be a good discussion. W e ' r e i n M a r c h . W h a t d i s t r i c t s c a n g o t o t h e w e b - site and see the accountability contract and make deci- sions about where to put their children next year? Hon. C. Clark: They're all up on the accountability contracts — t h e d i s t r i c t r e v i e w t e a m s . W e w i l l h a v e done 20 by the end of our process. We've already got five of those up on the web. We expect to have the rest up very, very soon. That's very important reference information for parents. J. MacPhail: Sorry. They're all done.

There are 20 on the website? Hon. C. Clark: District reviews. J. MacPhail: Sorry. Could the minister just go through that and maybe just a little bit more slowly? Hon. C. Clark: Yeah, there are 60 accountability contracts, one for every district. We also do a district review. We have a district review process. That's got two different prongs to it. We review 20 districts exter- nally with a big team panel of people every three years — right? Well, every year we do 20, and every year another 20 also get a visit from the deputy, where he sits down with them and discusses their specific goals personally.

We have a fairly specific review process. The district review is the document where…. There are

5516 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 five up on the web in addition to the 60 accountability contracts, but we expect we'll have all 20 up very soon. J. MacPhail: The accountability contracts are — I remember this from the debate last year in estimates — the goals, etc. How are they different this year in terms of outcomes? Hon. C. Clark: They're much more specific this year. Last year was our first year, baseline year, and we expect to keep improving them and getting more spe- cific. Some districts last year did have a fair amount of specifics. Some were really light on specifics.

The ac- countability contracts this year have had much more focus, been much more specific about the goals they're setting. They are, for the most part, focused on literacy, on numeracy and on outcomes for aboriginal students. [1525] J. MacPhail: So a parent with a special needs stu- dent would just assume that her child would have the same outcomes based on that? Hon. C. Clark: Some districts have done that. Some districts have put in specific goals for meeting with their special needs students. Not all districts have done that.

Any parent that's interested in those specific fo- cuses for school districts should phone their local school or school district, because that's where these decisions are made. J. MacPhail: What meetings has the ministry or the minister had with parents of special needs in the last six months, and what was the nature of those discus- sions? Hon. C. Clark: I have met with representatives of special needs parents on a one-on-one basis quite a number of times. I can give the member a specific number but not off the top of my head, I'm afraid. I have to go back and review my schedule.

My deputy has also met with special needs parents quite fre- quently over the last year and a half. I t i s m y v i e w , t h o u g h — quite strongly — that BCCPAC, which is the parent organization, does an excellent job of representing the interests of special needs parents as well as parents of typical children — the B.C. Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils. J. MacPhail: Maybe the minister could just give me a sense of the feedback, then, on the changes, because the changes have been substantial in special needs in the system. Hon. C.

Clark: My sense is that parents of special needs children are continuing to monitor the progress we're making. They're watching the changes quite care- fully, as the member suggested, as they should. They're pleased about some of the things we've done. Cer- tainly, the opportunity to go out and randomly audit individual education plans addresses a big concern, potentially, of special needs parents. So they're watch- ing carefully; they're cautious, I think. They want to monitor the progress we're making and then hold us to account for that, as they certainly should. J.

MacPhail: Just to be clear, the parents have to go to individual school boards to monitor the progress. I mean, that's what the minister's been telling me all along, unless that's different. Interjections. The Chair: Would the member like to ask a ques- tion of the minister. J. MacPhail: Sorry. The minister gave me an answer that, of course, that's always been the case. Actually, targeted funding has made it so that those statistics are available within the Ministry of Education, so it hasn't always been the case. Let me try a different approach on this.

My under- standing is that the limit on how many special students can be in one classroom has been removed — removed by this government. What are the statistics in terms of how many special needs students there are per class now? Hon. C. Clark: Yeah, I think we were pretty clear when we brought in Bill 28 that our view as govern- ment is that school districts are in the best position to make these decisions about staffing and to support the needs of the children in their classroom.

It shouldn't be driven by collective agreements; it shouldn't be driven by policy that's indifferent to the needs of the individ- ual student. We should be making decisions to support stu- dents, based on the needs of that individual and unique student in the classroom.

We expect that school districts and school principals will build their class- rooms based on the needs of the students that are in the class as opposed to the needs and desires of bar- gainers at some bargaining table years before. [1530] I should note, too, that while the context for collec- tive agreements has changed for school districts, the obligations placed on them with respect to special needs children have not changed. J. MacPhail: I wasn't referring to a collective agreement at all. I'm just asking about how many chil- dren in a classroom.

It's interesting, because this morning we had this discussion in terms of the Rozanski report in Ontario and about reciprocal accountability. The minister said: "Oh, we do that." I'm trying to figure out how they're doing that in terms of reciprocal accountability, when indeed there's been a huge amount of autonomy given to the individual school boards. Is the reciprocal ac- countability the minister then refers to the school board

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5517 to the parent, and the provincial government is out of it completely? So far the minister hasn't been able to give me any information on inputs. I fully accept…. In fact, it was I who last year brought up with the minister that inputs are only one-half of the equation and that outputs are the key. Unfortunately, you can't have outputs without inputs.

So far I haven't been able to get any information on any of the changes this government has brought about, so it will be interesting to see who actually is providing the reciprocal accountability that the minis- ter said they're already doing. Does the ministry have regular meetings with all school boards on the topic of special needs education? Hon. C. Clark: We regularly meet with school boards. We meet with them mostly through their rep- resentatives on the B.C. School Trustees Association. The agenda is theirs.

They often raise the issue of spe- cial needs, so we have that discussion with them on a regular basis. J. MacPhail: One of the things that has the potential of occurring when there is no longer targeted funding for special needs programs or English-language train- ing is that school boards facing a crunch or a deficit allocate funds in a fashion differently than perhaps the original intention was there for. In fact, they — and I say this with the greatest respect to school boards — rob Peter to pay Paul as they face school crunches. This government doesn't recognize fixed costs go- ing up.

We had that discussion around gas prices. In fact, sometimes the pressures around increased gas costs can be in the millions of dollars. One year it was, I think, $9.7 million just in the K-to-12 system. There's every potential that schools that need to heat their classrooms may look for sources of funding in areas like special needs or English-language training. It will be interesting to see how the government keeps track of student outcomes when it seems, so far, that there's no data being kept at all. Let me ask about another area where there's been a change with this government.

There used to be a legis- lative limit set on administrative spending, and I re- member that clearly coming about. It was very much encouraged by the then opposition, who were outraged by the amount of money being spent on administration and the high salary costs of administration. It was well documented in '92, '93 and '94. The government of the day put a legislative cap on administration costs. This government has removed that in the name of local autonomy. Does the minister have any statistics on the percentage being spent on administration versus class- room? [1535] Hon. C.

Clark: The issue with funding costs is, again, where I think we part ways ideologically. We don't believe, as a government, in funding on a cost- resource-based model, which is what the previous government used for funding school districts. So if gas prices go down or if enrolment goes down — which is actually happening — we don't take money away. We plow that back into the system. Again, we're hoping that school districts will find efficiencies in things like heating and transportation costs that they wouldn't otherwise have found if we allow them to keep the savings they may find.

In terms of administration, we do not target funding. We do not have caps on spend- ing anymore. We say to school districts: "You decide where you want to spend your money, and it'll be up to you to justify that for your public when you go to an election." J. MacPhail: Well, it's interesting, because I just watched the noonhour news about parents in the Vic- toria school district, and parents don't have the same view as the minister on this matter.

The Victoria school board is facing a huge cash crunch — and we'll talk about that in a moment — and are having public meet- ings about the potential closure of five schools. One of the proposals put forward by the parents at those five schools was that the government should have a provincewide payroll system, for instance. They came to that conclusion based on the view that there might be administrative cost savings. The parents would have known that specifically if, indeed, the former system had been in place about a cap on administration.

What does the minister say to those parents who made that suggestion just last night? Hon. C. Clark: Two things. One, Victoria's schools are one-third empty. I know it's a difficult decision for school districts, and I do not underestimate how diffi- cult that is for districts and parents, but the school dis- trict is faced with a choice of funding empty spaces or funding teachers and programs. That's the decision they have to make.

In a place like Victoria, where you could literally uproot a third of the students in Sooke or Saanich and move them into the existing spaces in Victoria, they need to think about what their priority is to spend their money on. Do they want to spend it on empty spaces, or do they want to spend it on teachers and programs? That's the decision the school district — I know it is difficult — is being faced with at the moment.

Cer- tainly, I know that parents whose children are in schools that are being considered for amalgamation have very strong feelings about that, but I know that all parents across the district, whether they are in one of those schools or not, want to make sure the district plows as much money as it can into teachers, teaching materials, resources and curriculum to make sure the schooling their kids actually get is as enriched as pos- sible. Second, a provincial payroll system — I'm all for it. J.

MacPhail: I'm sure the parents who are protest- ing the school closures will be interested in the minis- ter's comments. That wasn't my point. My point was that the parents said they shouldn't have to have their schools closed because of administrative cost savings

5518 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 they thought could be made. This was actually a group of parents making a suggestion. If the minister is in favour of a provincewide payroll system, is it being considered? How would parents know now how much money is being spent on administration, district by district? Hon. C. Clark: We are encouraging shared services wherever we can across the school system. We're mov- ing to a provincial payroll system for government. We're going to make that available for Crowns. I hope school districts will also decide to avail themselves of it.

We are encouraging these discussions with school districts as much possible. Victoria parents should go to their school district. We expect school districts to be entirely trans- parent about how much money they spend on admini- stration, transportation and all other costs, and that in- formation will be available from the district. J. MacPhail: H o w m u c h i s V i c t o r i a s p e n d i n g o n administration? [1540] Hon. C. Clark: We happen to actually have that information here, so I can tell the member.

I apologize that we don't have this here for every district, but be- cause we talked earlier about the fact we were going to be discussing Victoria, I happen to have it here. Victo- ria's administration costs are down by 3.19 percent. That's down by $360,974. As a percentage of their op- erating budget it's 7.7 percent, which is actually the same as it was last year. The total in money is $10,950,146. J. MacPhail: What's down 3.9 percent? Is that by 3.9 percentage points it's down or…? Hon. C. Clark: T h a t ' s t h e c h a n g e o v e r l a s t y e a r i n terms of dollars.

It's down from $11,311,120 to $10,950,146. It's important to remember that in the Vic- toria school district, that includes their administrative staff — the people that are typing and what we tradi- tionally think of as civil servants — but it also includes principals and vice-principals who are school-based and providing services right at the classroom level. J. MacPhail: Yes, and that hasn't changed. That was the definition when the administration costs were leg- islated. This is very interesting. How do parents now go about discussing shared administrative costs the way that I saw in the news last night?

I'm not sure. I have n o i d e a . I t w a s o b v i o u s l y j u s t a n e w s c l i p t h a t I s a w , but I expect that if the minister had said at the school meeting last night what she said in the Legislature to- day, there would be an interesting reaction to it — probably not that welcome. But the school board was saying exactly the same thing as the minister is saying. What are the next steps? Interjection. J. MacPhail: Sorry. Did you not understand — about closing schools? Sorry, you're right. Interjection. J. MacPhail: Can't you read my mind?

It's about saying exactly the same thing about clos- ing schools that the minister said — that, you know, classrooms are a third empty, etc. However, it seemed like it wasn't washing with the parents. Is the ministry going to initiate, then, a venue where school boards can talk about shared services? Hon. C. Clark: We have actually already started that and initiated that discussion. We've had that dis- cussion with superintendents at their annual general meeting. We've also had that discussion with secretary- treasurers. The discussion about shared services hasn't been equally welcomed by all districts.

There's no question about that. Nonetheless, it's an idea that has value. If we can save money on bureaucracy costs and pump it back into the classroom, that's what we should be doing. J. MacPhail: There are ongoing discussions about the conversion of K-to-12 to generally accepted ac- counting principles, and I note that the government has provided funding for school boards in that conversion. Can the minister describe the nature of those discus- sions? I was just thinking about whether there's a fo- rum there to discuss…. I'll take this in stages.

It's my assumption that in the movement to gener- ally accepted accounting principles, there's a stan- dardization of reporting. I understand that some of that is a bit controversial within the K-to-12 system. Is there a forum there that lends itself in the standardization of reporting for any best practices to be shared? Hon. C. Clark: Probably not. The better forum to do it is to talk to superintendents, to talk to secretary- treasurers at their meetings and try to push the agenda forward that way.

The generally accepted accounting principles discussion, as I understand it, is accountants that are talking about how to categorize the spending of money as opposed to how to control or manage the spending of money. That is a different discussion, and one that we are advancing and going to continue to advance at every forum where we have the opportu- nity. J. MacPhail: You're absolutely right. It is an ac- counting exercise, but it's an accounting exercise the way all accounting exercises take place.

There are puts and takes, and puts and takes can change the bottom line. [1545] Also in the standardization, as I understand it from GAAP discussions, is that it does lead to a uniformity of the categorization and therefore may lead…. I don't k n o w . I c o u l d b e w r o n g , b u t i t c o u l d l e a d t o s o m e

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5519 standardization or some general estimate of what's a fair cost for certain services offered — that's all. For instance, as I understand it, the way you account for staffing levels, replacement staffing levels or vacation can lead to either a bigger put or a greater take, and there's either more or less money at the bottom line. That's all I'm saying. In fact, the acknowledgment of that is that the government is actually promising to make the K-to-12 system whole.

The minister is saying the superintendents discus- sion would be the place, then, to hold shared services costs. What would be the area of discussion around shared services — the range? Hon. C. Clark: We've talked to them about payroll. We've talked about maintenance. We've talked about purchasing and procurement. We've talked about a whole range of possible things. It's technically feasible, I suppose, to suggest that almost all the back-office services for a school district could be shared, but I'm not sure it would actually work in practice. We've had discussions, and payroll is an obvious one. J.

MacPhail: Sorry, Mr. Chair. I don't have an up- dated act here, so forgive me if I'm getting the wrong sections of the School Act listed here. I think it's

section 106.2, as my notes show here, that says on or before February of e ach year the minister must establish and announce the amount of provincial funding to be paid to boards in the next fiscal year. Have I got that

section right? Interjection. J. MacPhail: Well, whatever. If I don't have it right, you get the sense. Interjection. J. MacPhail: Yeah, and I remember there was al- ways controversy and charges made about how the previous government didn't announce that money quickly enough, etc. We actually, on many occasions, changed the date at which we would announce that by regulation. The minister this year announced on January 31 the allocation of funding. What discussions occurred with school boards prior to that announcement in terms of funding? Hon. C.

Clark: They had a good preview of that, because we had been working on a three-year plan with $3.79 billion for school districts in operating fund- ing. They had a good view of that a year before, and there had been lots of acknowledgment and discussion about that fact. The member is quite correct that we announced it at the end of January. After we made the announcement, we then announced a further $50 mil- lion that was going to be made available.

I suspect previous governments probably extended the date on which they announced funding for school districts so that they could maximize the amount avail- able in that single announcement as opposed to mak- ing two announcements, like our government has done. Nonetheless, we intend to be bound by the statu- tory obligations in the act, which says we must provide the information to school districts before February. J. MacPhail: Yes, it was a two-part announcement, and the minister is quite right. We made the an- nouncement with our budget having been put to bed, so that there was just one announcement.

When the individual budget letters go out for the districts tomorrow, what follow-up is there with the superintendents or the secretary-treasurers in terms of explanation of budget letters? I actually haven't seen a budget letter. Do they just get a budget letter with an amount, and then it's up to them to determine further action? [1550] Hon. C. Clark: We went through a fairly extensive and in-depth discussion with them last year when we changed the funding formula, so I think all of them have a good grip on how it works.

We've been avail- able to them over the last year as they've continued to interpret their funding allocation. I'm pretty convinced that they have a sense of it. We are providing them with an updated operating manual, and of course, we're always available over the phone, and I can tell you this: school districts do not hesitate to call when they have questions about their budgets. J. MacPhail: I think, Mr. Chair, what I'll do is talk about this in the context of the Vancouver school board, if I may. These are public documents. Then after that we'll go to questions on the service plan.

As the minister knows, there's been a whole range of budget documents released by the Vancouver school board. I mean, I love my new school board, but I'm talking about this school board because it's my school board. It just so happens that I also love them. But it's not on that basis that I'm using them, other than their being my school board. It's something that I can carry through. They published a document about the actual im- pacts from last year, and I just want to move…. I'll just generalize. Actually, I won't generalize; I'll give the actual, specific information.

They're looking at a reduc- tion of about $12 million. No, sorry. I won't go there that quickly. They're looking at a reduction of 264 teacher FTEs. As part of the class-size ratios, the international student allotment ratio is proposed to increase from one teacher per 15 students to 19 students. A reduction of approximately 124 FTEs is proposed in the number of non-enrolling teachers at the elementary-, secon- dary- and district-based levels. Elementary and secon- dary school–based, non-enrolling teachers include ESL, learning assistants, teacher-counsellors and teacher-

5520 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 librarians. District-based, non-enrolling teachers in- clude district resource teachers, psychologists and speech-language pathologists. I'm wondering. Those seem to be pretty dramatic. Where do parents go to discuss this kind of thing — to their school board? Hon. C. Clark: Yeah, that's where parents should go and speak.

It's important, though, for parents to remember that the Vancouver school district has a his- tory — regardless of political stripe, by the way — of predicting tremendous deficits and always wrestling them down and delivering quality education compara- ble to anywhere else in the world. So the doom and gloom is always deepest and darkest in advance of the budgets actually coming out and the consultations that the district makes. I think the board will be particularly avid this year, given its political stripe, but that's poli- tics, and that's the way the budget process works. J.

MacPhail: Well, is there some reason to believe that the Vancouver school board has been overly dra- matic in its deficit? Perhaps the minister could give me that information, then. Hon. C. Clark: I don't know if I have it here. I gave it to the member's colleague a couple of days ago when I read through the history of Vancouver's predicted deficits and its actual…. Do I actually have that here? Thanks. In '97-98 the district submitted a budget under pro- test and concluded that there were $16 million worth of cuts. No deficit was incurred. In '98-99 it requested a $7.1 million deficit. No deficit was incurred.

In '99-2000 with an $11.8 million deficit, no deficit was incurred. In 2000-01 with a $5.2 million deficit, no deficit was in- curred. Last year it was a $25 million deficit, and no deficit was incurred. [1555] J. MacPhail: T hat's because school boards have to table balanced budgets, so I'm not sure what com- fort…. What point is the minister trying to make? They have to. They aren't allowed to incur deficits, and school boards make cuts to accommodate, or else….

Certainly, in the years '97-98 and '98-99 the then Minis- ter of Education went in and worked with the school board and actually allocated more funding. I don't un- derstand the point the minister is making. Is the minis- ter then suggesting that those deficits didn't occur and no cuts had to be made? Hon. C. Clark: I'm suggesting that the Vancouver school district has a long and glorious history of doom and gloom before budget period — suggesting that there are going to be massive deficits, which do not occur.

I know that's part of the normal budget-making processes for school districts to try and crank up the heat as much as they can. Vancouver school district has a particularly glorious past on that front. For example, in contrast to the suggestion from last year that the school district was going to have a $25 million deficit in 2002, they actually ran a $6 million surplus in their operating budget. J. MacPhail: Well, okay. I don't challenge the minis- ter's figures on that, but is the minister somehow say- ing, then, that there's no difficulty in all of this? I'm not quite sure what her point is that she's making.

Is the minister somehow saying that there's no cause for con- cern? Is that it? Hon. C. Clark: No, I've never suggested that. I had a lot of discussion with the member's colleague about the fact that I know there have been very difficult deci- sions that districts have had to make. Closing schools in a place like Victoria, for example, is certainly one of them. I know it's tremendously difficult for school dis- tricts to do that. I know that faced with declining en- rolment across the province, that's exacerbated the problem for them. It's meant declining revenues for many of them.

So, no, I'm not saying that there haven't been difficult decisions to be made. I am saying that I recognize, certainly, that there have been difficult deci- sions to be made. What I am saying, though, is that as we get closer to the budget process, what often hap- pens is the doom and gloom gets much, much darker than it ever turns out to be. I wanted to remind parents and citizens out there that sometimes the level of rhetoric around budgets, particularly with highly politicized boards, gets a little bit higher than it probably could be justified to be.

I think that often frightens parents and undermines their confidence in the public education system unduly. J. MacPhail: Well, then this is the place to uncom- plicate those matters. Perhaps the minister could say what it was that occurred with the Vancouver school board that moved them from a potential $25 million deficit position to a $6 million surplus. Hon. C. Clark: The Vancouver school district had certainly made some reductions in many areas. They talked about maintenance. There were teacher reduc- tions; there were a number of other reductions.

They have talked about school closures in the Vancouver school district. Those decisions have all been very, very difficult, but again, Vancouver has managed, I think, those decisions very well. They're continuing to give kids a really top-quality education. The Vancouver school district, particularly over the last year and a half, can pride itself on the fact that they've been focused on outcomes. They've been fo- cused on making sure kids do better, because that's the bottom line: focus on achievement and make sure that children are doing better year on year.

That's how we need to judge our progress in whether we're improving our education system. J. MacPhail: I find it difficult that the minister somehow says that because school boards obey the law

THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5521 and balance their budgets, somehow they were fear- mongering before that. The law says school boards have to balance their budgets, and school boards do that by making cuts. I think it's kind of, well, disre- spectful in a way to school boards to somehow suggest that they could be balancing their budgets in a way that didn't involve some tough decisions — or that, in fact, that they were fearmongering. The cuts they did make were substantial, and they were deep.

It's also my understanding that the one- time allocation funding of the $50 million in '02-03, which was made in February, led to the surplus. To that point the board had made their cuts to balance the budget, or am I wrong about that? Hon. C. Clark: Yeah, '02-03 isn't over yet, so I was talking about the surplus from the previous year. That's the only information we have so far. [1600] [W. Cobb in the chair.] J. MacPhail: The Vancouver school board was never talking about a $25 million deficit for '01-02, so I'm not sure what the minister's talking about.

The deficit they were talking about was for '02-03 being $25 million. In fact, the funding for '01-02 was established by the previous government and in- cluded a lift. I'm trying to be very factual about these discussions, and the minister is putting for- ward figures that are completely irrelevant to the discussion. The $25 million deficit predicted for the Vancou- ver school board arose out of '02-03 funding, so per- haps we could just stick to that. I already read into the record reductions that had to be made to balance the budget.

There were reductions in staffing levels at the elementary level, the secondary level and at the district level in classroom staffing. There were cuts made to learning resource centres, education technology, the area discretionary fund, career edu- cation, career programs, district learning services. Inner-city school funding was cut. International bac- calaureate fees were increased, and there was still a reduction in the number of students who could par- ticipate. Japanese and Mandarin supplies were de- creased.

The media resource centre recreational ac- tivities budget was decreased, and the career techni- cal centre budget was cut. These are instructional support budgets. Urgent intervention was cut, and that budget, just so the pub- lic knows, deals with money available to provide ur- gent intervention where student behaviour is danger- ous or extremely disruptive. It's interesting that one of the outcomes the minister talks about is citizenship or behaviour in the classroom. Career program cuts.

Ca- reer information was cut, and these are secondary school support staff that are used for assisting students in going on to post-secondary education. Those are the cuts that the board was making. Let me just carry on here. There was a cut made to the maintenance operation budget that led to an in- creased deterioration in building infrastructure. Planned building maintenance work — which included interior painting, painting touch-ups, plumbing up- grade, carpet replacement, window replacements — was eliminated.

There are now increased delays in re- sponding to emergency repair breakdowns, and the physical learning environment has deteriorated. The ministry had provided bus fares for students enrolled in special district classes so that students could travel. There were cuts made there. There were transportation cuts made. There were cuts made in the adult learning centre. The continuing education com- puter centre was cut, and adult academic course fees increased. Adult education supply fees increased. I actually did some highlights there of several pages of cuts that had to be made, and I expect that, by law….

I don't think the Vancouver school district has asked to break the law and file a deficit budget, have they? [1605] Hon. C. Clark: No, not formally. They haven't made any suggestion that they want to do that. I want to just be clear with the member. The reason we were talking at cross-purposes about the money and the surplus versus the deficit is that the $42 million that was provided in additional funding last year in '01-02 was probably spent by the district largely in their '02-03 budget, and that's the source of the confusion about this. J.

MacPhail: How many school districts either re- quested assistance from the special adviser or asked to file a deficit budget for '02-03? Hon. C. Clark: None. J. MacPhail: Sorry. Nobody asked for the assis- tance? Am I using the right term — special adviser? Hon. C. Clark: That's correct. The answer is "none" to both questions the member asked. J. MacPhail: Does the minister interpret that as good news? Hon. C. Clark: Well, I think it's good news that districts don't want to file deficit budgets.

I think it's good news, too, that districts feel that they're able to manage without additional assistance from the minis- try. We're always there to help, though, informally, and we continue to do that through a whole variety of means. In terms of actually appointing a special ad- viser, we've appointed one special adviser. That's in the district of Gold Trail, I think, district 74. That was at the request of parents in the community, and I think the district has found that assistance quite helpful. J. MacPhail: So the school boards…. I'm not sure what school boards the minister was referring to in

5522 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2003 terms of politicized school boards, but clearly, in the year '02-03 every school district rolled up their sleeves and made the cuts on their own without asking for assistance from the Ministry of Education. I would certainly say that school boards are doing their best to cope with the cuts, but it does lead to meetings that occurred last night at the school district here in Victo- ria, where the parents….

The interface is between par- ents and school districts and school board trustees about cuts, not between parents and the government, even though it's the government that has forced the funding crunch. Hon. C. Clark: Well, we've actually increased money. The budget actually announced an increase in money for the Ministry of Education. We're going to be delivering an extra $100 million over the next three years. We delivered $42 million last year and $50 mil- lion in addition this year.

We hope there'll be another education dividend next year for districts so that we can provide some more one-time funding in '03-04. Given that there's declining enrolment and there's a substantial increase planned in the ministry budget, that's good news. The Chair: By agreement, we'll have a five-minute recess. The committee recessed from 4:08 p.m. to 4:15 p.m. [W. Cobb in the chair.] J. MacPhail: We've got to do the Vancouver school board for this base budget, Victoria, and then we'll move to service plan.

As for the budget assumptions on the '03-04 base budget for the Vancouver school board, I'll read into the record what is anticipated. I understand this could change, depending on what their budget letter says tomorrow. This is what their preliminary base budget is, based on what they were told January 31: elimination of one- time expenditures, $3.2 million for 57 transitional teachers and the corresponding one-time appropriation from the '01-02 surplus, which was used to fund this expenditure. That would have been the $6 million sur- plus the minister was talking about earlier.

They're assuming the same enrolment level as Sep- tember 30, 2002. They're also assuming known collec- tive increases for teachers and ALC instructors — that's 2.5 percent, July, of this budget — a 2 percent increase for the operating engineer employees, and salary in- creases for principals and vice-principals at 2 percent. They're assuming salary increments for teachers — these are contractual obligations — and known changes to the Canada Pension Plan. Now, that's a 7.68 percent rollup cost on CPP and then an EI rolldown cost — that's the good news from the federal govern- ment — a 4.5 percent decrease.

They're assuming an elimination of remaining funding for the 2001-02 one-time enhanced early re- tirement incentive program, and that's now gone. They're assuming projected benefit rate increases — we've already talked about CPP — to extended health because of the downloading of the provincial govern- ment. They're assuming a 15 percent cost increase in April of this year due to changes to Pharmacare, a 15 percent premium rate increase for July 2003 and an increase of the municipal superannuation plan contri- bution of 1.2 percent.

They're assuming inflation for goods and services of 1.95 percent and natural gas increased prices of 4.2 percent. They're also projecting an increase in interest revenue of $137,000

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0313pm-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0313pm 14
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	aad89765062e02c48b35f6ebdf66f6c24eeeedba

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