Manitoba Hansard — 29 April 1996 (Sitting 25, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-25

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 25- 1:30 p.m., Monday, April 29, 1996 ISSN 054?-54Q?

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Aff"iliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Anhur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charles wood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norben St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Ponage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupensland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Tunle Mountain Fon Garry Swan River � N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P.

P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

1427 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 29, 1996 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Home Care Services Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Gertrude Firth, Dorothy Carter and C. Saunders requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr.

Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Colleen Alecci, Michel Levesque, Philip Malzensky and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of J. Jorundson, E. Jorundson, L. Millar and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Home Care Services Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). It complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnan t): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front -line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations,

1428 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April29, 1996 mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divesticure of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. *

(1335) Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honour able member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

April29, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1429 An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT on at least six occasions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THA T previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions and directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Headingley Correctional Institution-Up rising Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House. I want to take this oppor tunity to report to all members of the Legislature and to the citizens of Manitoba on the major uprising which occurred last week at Headingley jail. As you know, due to a series of circumstances which have yet to be ascertained, inmates at the medium security fucility overpowered corrections officers and took control of the institution.

I can tell you today the full weight of the law will be brought to bear on those responsible, and we will take steps to ensure that it does not happen again. Thankfully, there was no loss of life during the event. In fact, I have been told that loss of life may have been prevented in no small way by the heroic efforts of provi ncial corrections officers who put their own safety aside to take steps to protect their colleagues and some inmates.

I believe it was only through the efforts of corrections staff, the RCMP and others who handled the situation in a professional and expert manner that we were able to take control of the jail in as short a time as we did. My thanks go out to all of the officers involved, and I am sure that I am joined by all those in the House wishing for a speedy recovery for those injured. My thanks also extend to the Headingley fire department, the people of Headingley, and all those who co-operated with us to bring this situation under control.

Madam Speaker, we are still piecing together what may have precipitated this uprising. To the best of our knowledge at the moment, it was not a planned event. Early reports suggest that during a routine search for contraband, several officers were overpowered by inmates and the violence spread throughout the institution. Throughout the night and during the day on Friday inmates surrendered to authorities. Finally, at approximately 5 p.m. on Friday, RCMP and corrections officers moved into the facility to regain control and to take any remaining inmates into custody.

My staff infor ms me the staffing levels at the institution are not in question and were not the cause of this riot. The inmate-to-staff ratio at Headingley is on a level or better with other institutions across the country. I can also tell the House that we do not believe that the living conditions at Headingley or the way in which inmates

1430 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April29, 1996 were treated was the cause of the incident. I want to remind members of this House, Headingley is a jail. It is not a resort or a place for a holiday. Inmates at the institution have left victims behind. There have been numerous improvements undertaken at the facility over the past few years. For security, we have upgraded fencing, installed TV cameras and installed other systems to protect both officers and inmates. We have improved windows, showers, water quality, educational and program areas and the kitchen.

Along with the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pallister), I inspected Headingley jail on Saturday and I can tell you I was appalled at the level of widespread destruction. Though some areas of the facility were left virtually untouched, what could be smashed or broken was. We are not yet able to put a dollar figure on the damage, but it is extensive. In consultation with my colleague the Minister of Government Services, we will put together a plan for the cleanup and the rebuilding process.

However, to the extent possible, we will minimize the cost to the taxpayer by having those responsible for the destruction participate in the cleanup and the rebuilding of the facility as long as the v.'ork does not compromise the safety and the security of officers, the public or inmates. *

(1340) This incident will be investigated from several aspects. The RCMP and ultimately the courts will deal with all criminal matters and, in fact, the RCMP have been in the institution all weekend to further their investigation. My department will also conduct a thorough n:view and investigation to determine why this happened and how it can be prevented in the future. My department has asked the federal corrections service to participate in this internal review of the matter which will look into all pra ctices and procedures underway at Headingley up to the point where the RCMP took control on Thursday night.

Madam Speaker, I am comnuttmg today to an independent review of the circumstances, to ascertain if anything could have been done to prevent the riot and how we may be able to prevent future occurr ences. I can also tell the House we will soon be implementing new procedures at Headingley to assist in reducing inmates' access to drugs while incarcerated. Some of the proposals we are currently reviewing include random urinalysis testing, reducing drug dealing and intimidation through the interception of phone calls and other proc edures which will reduce the possibility of visitors bringing drugs into the jail.

Madam Speaker, the 24 hours of the riot were an extremely difficult and serious time for all involved. Lives were in jeopardy. Fortunately, there were no deaths, and I want to again thank all of the officers for the way they handled this extremely volatile situation. Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): Madam Speaker, this is indeed a difficult time for too many Manitobans, v.ith the ongoing strike and the flood and now a riot, and we too join \'>ith the minister in extending our sympathies to those who have suffered injury, particularly to the correct ional officers who in the course of duty were exposed to a terri ble, terrible tragedy. We wish them full recovery and, as well, to the families, extend our best wishes, our condolences as they recover from this terrible tragedy in their particular families.

I also want to acknowledge the role of correctional staff throughout Manitoba who are now responding to new inmate populations that have arrived from Headingley. I spoke to one senior correctional officer on the weekend who had to work 36 hours just to deal with this crisis. These are difficult times. As well, we extend appreciation to the role of the police and the RCMP, in particular to the correctional officers who assisted and to the health care professionals who attended to those who were injured. This is a very, very serious matter.

This is an affront to security in this prO\ ince, to law and order in our province and the consequences that must follow to those responsible must reflect the rebuke that is needed. We hope that the minster, in the course of the plea bargaining and even the positioning on sentencing, will reflect that rebuke. However, Madam Speaker, we also must talk about who is accountable for what occurred.

We are aware certainly of very serious questions having been raised, appa rently over some period of time, about the security measures that are in place particularly at Headingley, but which bear a close resemblance to concerns that have been expressed by individuals employed at the Sheriff's

April 29, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1431 office. We cannot have individuals who are employed in the highest-risk situations in this province exposed to questionable procedures or lack of following a protocol, and serious questions must be raised beyond internal assurances from the minister's department about staffmg levels and protocol. The minister said today, after some pressuring, that she would agree to an independent review. We question when that review will take place and whether that review will be public, will be under The Evidence Act as a commission of inquiry.

We expect no less and will demand no less for the staff and families and the taxpayers to ensure this never happens again. Thank you, Madam Speaker. *

(1345) TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Fina nce): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Provincial Auditor's Report for 1994-95, Volume 4. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Billll -The Court of Queen's Bench Surrogate Practice Amendment Act Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 11, The Court of Queen's Bench Surrogate Practice Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia pratique relative aux successions devant Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill12-The Barbers Repeal and Hairdressers Repeal Act Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs (Mr. Ernst), that leave be given to introduce Bill 12, The Barbers Repeal and Hairdressers Repeal Act; Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur les coiffeurs et Ia

Loi sur les coiffeurs pour dames, and that the same now be introduced and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the atte ntion of all honourable members firstly to the loge to my right where we have with us this afternoon Gerry Ducharme, the former Minister of Urban Aff airs, Housing and Government Services and member for Riel. Also in the public gallery this afternoon, we have twenty-six Grade 12 students from Morden Collegiate under the direction of Miss Andrea Petkau.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. *

(1350) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Headingley Correctional Institu tion Inquiry Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, as noted by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) and the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), the situation on Friday is indeed tragic. All of us, I am sure, have received numerous calls over the weekend.

I have received a number of calls from correctional staff who have been absolutely traumatized by the injuries received by their co-workers and are absolutely traumatized about conditions that they feel have been develop ing in the Headingley Institution and remain in the Headingley Institution.

I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the minister's statement today that we are going to have an independent review, and in light of the fact that many of the correctional staff that we have talked to and listened to feel it is very important that we have a public inquiry so that their stories and their concerns and their issues can be heard by all of the public, would the Premier allow the staff to speak out and would the Premier allow the

1432 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1996 public to hear through an independent public inqui ry which we fe el is necessary to get answers to questions and get solutions to the saf ety that is so paramo unt in our correctional system? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I just want to make sure that the memb er and all Manitobans know the process that has to take place. First of all, there is currently a police investigation underway. That police investigation may lead to criminal charges.

We, at the same time, will be conducting our internal review within the Department of Justice. That internal review will be supported by fe deral corrections, who will come in to provide an asses sment to make sure procedures were fo llowed. But we also want to get to the bottom of this. We also want to make sure that this will never happen again, and that is why we have conunitted to an independent review, which may take place at the same time. If we were to wait fo r a public inquiry, that public inquiry could not take place until the completion of the criminal cases.

That is why we have decided to proceed this way and to not wait. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I would encourage the Minister of Justice and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to review the precedent established with the Westray public inquiry, where charges are pending and being investi gated but a public inquiry is being conduc ted. Madam Spe aker, we have had reviews bef ore, the 1989 review. There have been reviews in the past.

There have been internal reviews that have talked about the saf ety of this insti tution, the physical limitations of the corridors, the bars, the situation with the ability to deal with the locking system in that jail. Madam Speaker, I would encourage the Premier to take charge of an independent public inquiry, and I would like to ask the Premier a further ques tion. Correctional staff have been inf orming us that three or fo ur years ago-and they think it is fo ur years ago-the staffing levels in the evening shift at the Headingley Correctional Institution were 25.

When the incident took place last weekend , the staffing levels were 19, and sometimes they fee l the staffing levels are even below that. We believe that the correctional officers should be able to speak out at a public inquiry about these discrepancies of statistics between the minister and the staff. I would like to ask the Premier, will he allow the staff at the line leveL at the range level, at the security level, to speak out in a public inquiry and deal with what they perceive to be a reduction of security at that institution? Mrs.

V odrey: I would like to remind the member about his own colleague the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), when he was minister of corrections . I have a newspaper article, September 29, 1983, in which the criticism is that with the Garson Re port, completed before the riot that took place when that member was minister, they could not even get at the report at all, and that the member right across was saying the public has a right to know, strategies should not be cooked in the bowels of the institution. A secret, Madam Speaker .

This government has made it clear, there will be what is required and that is the independent investigation. We do not want to interfere, however, with the criminal case. Let me deal with the staffing level as well, Madam Speaker. Earlier, bef ore this government built the Remand Centre, this government dealt with Milner Ridge, populations were higher at Headingley . ln fa ct, I look over inf ormation from when the member for Brandon East was in charge of the situation and the population was significantly higher by alm ost 100.

Theref ore, there was staff available to assist, but as that population moved from Headingley Institution to the new Remand Centre to Milner Ridge, then staff went with them. But the ratio of staff -to-inmate population, I can tell you, is as good or better than other institutions in this country . Mr. Doer: I am again disappointed that the minister will not call fo r a public independent inquiry. *

(1355) Security Measures Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the minutes of meetings that we have reviewed and other documents that we have reviewed have indicated a concern that has been raised by correctional

April29, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1433 officer staff for the last three or four years about the level of staffing at the Headingley Correctional Institution. They also raise the fact that the new psychologist at the Correctional Institution has condemned the ways of staff and said we need new ways to deal in the institution. The corrections system, in terms of security, was not acceptable. Furth er, the correctional staff have been fighting a recomme ndation of this minister and this government to remove range bars.

I will table today a memo confirming the decision to remove the range bars in Headingley Institution. They were reinstated in '87, Madam Speaker, and now in 1995-96 they are in the process of being removed. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to overrule his Minister of Justice and stop the removal of those range bars, which the staff feel are absolutely essential to the security of themselves and the safety of their inmates. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): First of all, let me say the range bars were not removed.

The range bars have not been removed and the range bars are not going to be removed. However, the member across the way seems to be dealing with information that he is getting-and some of that information can be very dangerous, such as the information which was put on Friday afternoon by the leader of the union. That information was just plain wrong, and that information jeopardized more people than any other event, that information by the leader of the union for correctional officers who came out and gave totally false infor mation about death and about castration.

The effect of that was twofold: the effect was to endanger the inmates inside and to incite them to take further action; and then the human factor, the human factor which then every time that was commented upon, every time caused the phones to ring on the family lines while people worried about their loved ones. Madam Speaker, the security instituted by this government has been continuous security improvement.

Any changes to the range bars, the member clearly knows-Headingley Institution is the only institution across this country that has range bars, so in order to look at whether or not they would remain, work was being done with Workplace Safety and Health and with the institution and with the correctional officers. There has not been the removal of range bars. During the disturbance on Friday, the range bars were in place. The range bars will remain in place. Headingley Correctional Institution Inquiry Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

In 1989, the Justice department reported that Headingley has, and I quote from the report: marginal capabilities in terms of inmate movement control or group containment-and went on to say-there is a general recognition and frustration that the existing facility militates against safety security.

Given that the government has apparently rejected the essence of the recommendations of this 1989 report and given evidence that correctional officers have been cut by a third, and there is a lack of training, protocol and adherence to procedure at a time of an increasingly violent inmate population with gang activity, would the minister now agree to call a commission of inquiry under The Evidence Act that is public, and will the lack of resp onse by this government be one of the terms of reference? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I would like to tell the people of Manitoba that over the past appro ximately six years, there has been in the range of $700,000, $750,000 improvements done to Headingley. Those improvements were to look at issues such as security, to close down certain living areas and to make sure that there were facilities that were appropriate. Madam Speaker, we have a continuous plan to deal with the physical facilities at Headingley and particularly to deal with safety.

However , members across the way have often wanted to make sure that Headingley was in fact an easy place to go. In fact, the one letter I got on corrections was from the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) who said, at Portage, there were not enough toys. Madam Speaker, really, I look at the priorities of the members across the way and say that they, frankly, have not prioritized.

1434 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri129, 1996 *

(1400) Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker. Beauchesne's Citation 417 is very clear, that "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Madam Speaker, on an issue as serious as the riot that took place at Headingley and on a question as serious as the one put by our member asking for an independent public inquiry, I would like to ask that you call the Minister of Justice to order and ask her to answer the question.

Mada m Speaker: The honourable me:mber for Thompson does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. Security Measures Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my supplementary to the minister: When did the minister, who wants to get to the bottom of this riot apparently, become aware of allegations of problems with their closed-circuit TVS, including the monitoring of those, inaccessible antiquated equipment, one key that opens all cell blocks, widespread endemic drug use, procedures not followed, complaints about understaffmg?

Why was apparently nothing done and will that be one of the terms of reference of the inquiry? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the member again is behaving today very much the way he behaved on Friday. He is continuing to spread his ideas, some views which are unsubstantiated, and Friday, while lives hung in the balance, the head of the RCMP for Manitoba met with the member for St. Johns, the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) and myself, to make it very clear that public comment was very unhelpful at that time while lives were in the balance.

I have to take a moment to commend the member for The Maples who, as a police officer, has clearly understood not to speak. The member across the way- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. If the minister "ishes to get off into petty matters, I am sure she does not want to leave on the record of this House the misrepresentation that the RCMP in any way made some advice to me that comment was not approp riate. That is not true, and the minister knows that. I ask that she \\ithdraw that comment on the record.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. Inquiry Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My fmal supplementary, just a simple question: Will the minister undertake to ensure that there is accountability for what happened this weekend at Headingley jail, appoint a commission of inquiry under The Evidence Act immedia tely to begin the process of looking into this matter to ensure that it does not happen again? Will she simply answer that simple question? Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Att orney General): Madam Speaker, we certainly are moving immediately into accountability. That accountability will start where the people who caused the destruction of that institution will be the ones required to go in and clean it up.

That is the start of accountability for the events on Friday Madam Speaker, in addition to that, I have made it clear that we will be launching an independent re,iew into the circumstances surrounding this event at Headingley while there is a police investigation, possible criminal charges, possible court cases and our O\\n internal review. Madam Speaker, just to clarify, also, a question the member asked about correctional officers' concerns.

I would just like to say that on review ing the grievances availa ble, there are in fact no outstanding grievances at all that deal with staffing levels, that deal with safety, that

April29, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1435 deal with security. They deal with matters such as sick benefits. Home Care Program Privatization-Independent Commission Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, when the Premier addressed the Legislative Assembly of the northwest province of the Republic of South Africa, just this year, he stated, and I quote: Canadians have always valued consensus over conflict and co-operation over confrontation.

Madam Speaker, given the Premier's comments, I wonder why the Premier would not accept our proposal that a committee of eminent Manitobans from all political backgrounds, people like Sid Spivak or Ed Schreyer, study the home care issue for a year. It could end the strike; it would allow for the matter to be resolved, and it would allow for public input by the public of Manitoba. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as I have said before, our objective is to ensure that at all times we can provide for the needs of those who depend upon home care in this province.

The fact of the matter is that this withdrawal of services unilaterally by the union demonstrates exactly the concern that we have, the valid concern, that with one monopoly provider in the system you can have people irresponsibly withdraw services from those who need them most, and we cannot tolerate that happening again in future. We will not have that in future because we will bring competition into the system, alternatives and flexibility into the system for the needs of those who depend upon home care, and that is the answer that all Manitobans want. Mr.

Chomiak: My supplementary to the Premier: If the government position on privatization is as strong as the Premier suggests, why would they not permit a nonpartisan group of eminent Manitobans to study the situation for a year, to come back with recommendations, to allow Manitobans to have input and to end the strike? What is the Premier afraid of? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the problem with members opposite is they do not like the decision. They are not interested in process. They are not interested in studies or reviews because they go back all the way to the time when New Democrats were in office.

Price Waterhouse, in '87-88, brought forward a study that was commissioned by New Democrats. It said that there should be user fees. It said that many people should be cut off the system. It said it should be income tested. It said all sorts of things. There have been studies after studies. Governments are elected to make decisions and we are making a decision on behalf of those who are most vulnerable in society, those who depend upon home care.

That is why we are doing what we are doing, which is to bring in an element of competition, an element of flexibility and assurance that we can provide home care in future and that the people who are most vulnerable will not be held up for ransom for political reasons by New Democrats or anybody else. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I take it that is a no.

My fmal supplementary to the Premier: If the government's plan and their contingency is working as well as the Premier suggests, why is the government introducing a program to start paying family members and untrained third parties directly from government to do home care? Their contingency plan is in serious trouble; they do not have the capacity. Why would they not want to end the strike now by having a commission study it for a year? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, when the union leadership, supported by the New Democratic Party, wants to close down the Home Care program, we are left in a position where we have to look at all options to make sure that the clients of this program get the proper care. The honourable member is now fighting the battles for the union leadership here and he would have far more credibility \vith the public if he would fight the battles of the clients of the home care system. *

(1410) Society for Manitobans with Disabilities Funding Reductions Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, this government continues to cut those who are the most vulnerable in our society. We have been informed that the handicapped children who receive

1436 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MA."N"ITOBA April 29, 1996 adaptive skills and language programs in the preschool at the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities will have their programs cut by this government. Titis $500,000 cut amounts to 31. 8 percent reduction in overall funding with the loss of 11 highly skilled professionals who work with the children. My question to the Minister of Family Service:s is, why did this minister decide to take such vicious and drastic cuts to these very needy and vulnerable children? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does allow me the opportunity to tell all Manitobans that we care about providing service for all of those who are challenged within our society, and especially children. The changes that are happening are as a result of a collaborative process where the nursery at the Society for Man itobans with Disabilities will no longer be an in house service, but the dollars that were being spent on bricks and mortar are going to go into services for children. There will be a co-ordinated approach.

There will be outreach, and there will be more children with disabilities served as a result of the co-ordination and the collaboration that has taken place. Resources Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Spea ker, given that the personnel, the money is not available to provide services, as stated by the society, can the minister tell the families affected by these cuts what resources will be available for their children so their futures are not being thro\\n away? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, again, I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does give me the opportunity to present to all Manitobans the work that has been going on with the Society for Mimitobans with Disabilities, with the Rehabilitation Centre for Chi ldren, with the Children's Hospital and with St. Amant Centre, so that the outreach program for children and integration of children into the community will be of paramount importance.

The nursery school, the bricks and mortar at the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities, in fact, was not providing the same kind of integration and outreach and opportunity for children with disabilities, and we want to see that kind of service provided in an integrated fashion in the best way possible so as many children as possible can receive the service they need. Ms. Mihychuk: Will the minister guarantee to these families they \\ill receive the respite services they need, the specialized education supports that they received and the specialized health care aid which these children need in their homes?

Will the families receiye that? Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, again, I thank my honourable friend for that question because more Man itobans and more children with disabilities will be able to receiYe services as a result of the amalgamation, the co-ordination and the working together of those in the community who are Yery concerned about providing the supports for children with disabilities.

We know that we will be able to ensure that more children are served through that collaborative process than have been served in the past, and I think that is good for Manitoba's children who have disabilities and are in need Headingley Correctional Institution Inquiry Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. I would like to thank the minister for her all-party briefing Friday in response to the Headingley riot where we put the personal safety of those called to respond to ride above political rhetoric.

This type of tactic should be supported by all members of this House. The minister is Sll)ing a full public inquiry \\ill have to wait until the criminal inyestigations are completed, but let us not sit on our hands. Let us get personally involYed. Will the minister consider an all-party fact finding mission of MLAs which would cost the public nothing? As a 20-year veteran of the Winnipeg Police force, I would be v.illing to participate in an investigation of the underlying causes of this horrific incident and submit recommendations to the minister. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the member's comments and also his personal

April29, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1437 professionalism which has not gone unnoticed by anyone. However, in our effort to make sure that we do not have to wait, that we do not lose time, it has been our government's commitment today to have an independent review take place. I look forward to being able to announce details on who will conduct that review in the very near future. We feel the same; we do not want to wait too long. We understand that police investigation and an internal review, and we have made the commitment today to an independent review so we do not lose any time. Mr.

Kowalski: Will the minister give her commitment that, unlike the 1983 report from the former NDP government and the 1989 report from the Conservative government, the recommendations that will come out of this inquiry will be acted upon? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, we certainly are always continuing to look for improvements, particularly in the area of the safety and security practices within our institutions. There are a number which are even scheduled for this year in 1996-97, and we can discuss some of those details in Estimates.

A number of them are changes which are very enhancing in terms of, again, safety and security of prisoners. So I certainly can give the member my continued reassurance. That is exactly what we have been doing; that is what we expect to continue to do. Report Recommendations Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Will the minister make a commitment to act immediately on the recommendations from the '83 NDP report and the 1989 Conservative report, to act immediately upon them instead of waiting? Can we have immediate action, act now instead of later? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as I said in an earlier answer, there has been approximately somewhat over $700,000 spent on the institution since this government came to power, as well as the development of the Remand Centre to reduce inmate population and Milner Ridge to deal with inmate population.

So there has been a continued effort to work on recommendations, and as I said, there are a number which will be taking place in this year which were approved during the Estimates process, which will continue, I believe, to add to the safety and security of those working in the institution. Education System Special Needs Review Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, Manitobans are well aware that the number of students with special needs in our schools is increasing rapidly and the parents of those children want, I think, most clearly, longer term plans for their children.

I want to ask the Minister of Education if she could tell the House why her department's review of special needs education announced several years ago, contained in Estimates for the past three years, so far has no public presence. Could she tell us why there has been this extraordinary delay? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I have to indicate initially that the plans for the special needs review are well underway, and we have been talking with various groups, various parent groups, various school groups, various educator groups, on the types of things that we feel will need to be looked at and examined in that study. I do find it somewhat ironic that the member is asking for a study at a time when she is criticizing us for bringing in so much change.

That aside, I have to indicate it is very much a priority of ours, and we should be hearing some announcement on that within the next few weeks or months. *

(1420) Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell the House whether this long-awaited-and at my count it is over two years now-special needs review will in fact be nonpolitical in the same way that the minister claims her Enhancing Accountability review was a nonpolitical one? Will it have the opportunity for public input and will it indeed be an independent review? Mrs. Mcintos h: Madam Speaker, I am not quite sure of the exact definition of "political" that the member is using, because there is a school of thought that any decision made by people who are elected is a political decision, anything done by people who are elected edges the realm of political decision making or activity.

1438 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1996 Having said that, the review that we are envisioning for special needs purposes in the province will be widely encom passing, will include those very groups that I talked to. I have already had some preliminary in-depth discussions with parents, educators, administrators of people who work in depth with special needs students of all types, and their input will be required on a review of this nature.

So in the sense that it involves stakeholder groups, the member will have to decide for her own self if she thinks those stakeholder groups, because they are advocacy groups and lobby groups, enter into the realm of political or nonpolitical. I cannot judge that for her. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister confirm that this wide encompassing, wide-ranging review will specifically address the role and obligation of private schools in the education of special needs students in Manitoba? Mrs. Mcintosh: We have discussed this, as I say, \vith all of those who educate special needs students.

As the member knows, the independent schools also, like the public schools, do receive the same per capita grant for the special needs students they educate. There are many special needs students who, attending independent schools, are faced not only with the need to educate but also with the user fee they must provide for their Christian education or their all-girls education or whatever the milieu is they are looking for.

Certainly, Madam Speaker, since the independent schools do educate special needs students and many parents of special needs students wish their children to have a faith education, they certainly are not going to be excluded from providing input into this very important study. Child Daycare Special Needs Funding Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Family Services, through the Child Day Care office, funds daycare centres and other facilities for children with special needs, including children with medical disabilities and/or hearing, speech or language problems.

Since the Minister of Family Services said today earlier that she cares about all who are challenged, I wonder if the minister could tell us if she believes that the funding is adequate to provide for the needs of all these children in the existing system. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question because I am not sure-and we have said many times before, the amount of money that goes into programs does not necessarily mean that the quality of sen ice is any better or any worse than more or less money.

Madam Speaker, I want to indicate that we as a government have taken a very proactive approach to co ordinate sen ices so that through the Children and Youth Secretariat we are looking at how we can best spend the dollars we have available to us to provide support for those most in need. We are working very aggressively to try to ensure that the dollars that are there are used in the most appropriate fashion so that children can get the services they need. Mr.

Martindale: Madam Speaker, I would like to table a page from the minister's briefing book which shows that in the last fiscal year there was a waiting list of 46 children who could not get the sen·ices that they needed. I would like to ask the minister how she can say that they care for all the children with disabilities when there is already a waiting list for these children. Why is the minister not providing the resources that they need? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I want to indicate that one area within my department that I have placed a vety high priority on is on those with special needs, those with disabilities, and if ever there are more resources that come to the Department of Family Sen ices, they go into those areas to provide that kind of support. We work to try to prioritize the most needy within the system and find the solutions to their needs.

It continues to be an ongoing com mitment by this government to ensure that as the resources become available we prioritize in the manner that will best address the needs of those who are most vulnerable. Subsidized Spaces Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services how

April 29, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 39 she can say that she is making a priority of all these needs when as recently as a year ago the child care community thought that the minister was funding 9, 600 cases when in actual fact the utilization was at about 8,200, and now we have a freeze and daycare co-ordinators and family daycare homes are losing cases and the minister is trying to pretend that she is meeting all the needs. How can these needs be met when there is a freeze on, and the cases are being denied from children who need it? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for being at the Manitoba Child Care Association's annual meeting on Friday with me, and he heard first hand the comments that I made to the child care community. The comments were indeed that the spaces that were utilized last year will be there for anyone who needs those spaces. If in fact there is a dis crepancy between what the department has allocated and what the true needs are in those daycare centres, we are looking at those on an individual basis and we are making adjustments where they need to be made.

In the meantime, we are going to be working very closely with the child care community around review of the regulations and the programming to ensure that the flexibility, the accountability and the services are there for working families throughout the province as it is needed. What was necessarily appropriate 10 years ago is not appropriate today. The child care community has agreed to work with us in a very proactive way and I am looking forward to that process. Department oflndustry, Trade and Tourism Employee Morale Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I want to table the Price Waterhouse December 19 9 5 study of l, T and T. On page 13 of that study the following words are found. I quote: ". . . people recounted showing up for work one morning to fmd themselves in new areas, reporting to new bosses, with no accountable executive present to explain why. We found people today who . . . simply continue to do the same job they did before the 19 92 reorganization even though it no longer matches their current job description or assigned area.

In several cases, we found people who were demoted and had not received any feedback that their performance was not adequate." Madam Speaker, will the minister finally acknowledge that his department is obviously highly demoralized and in a state of complete chaos? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): No, I will not, Madam Speaker, but what I will tell the member is that the department had been involved and in charge, in part, of some $1.5 billion worth of investment in this province, some 9,000 to 10 ,000 new jobs, the second-lowest unemployment in all of the country is in this province, record export sales to the United States and internationally. That is the kind of department we have and the people have been working on those kinds of projects. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister take responsibility, and apologize to his staff, for politicizing his department where it says very clearly: " ... personal success within the organization is seen to be as much a function of personal contacts and informal relationships as performance and impact in economic development."? Mr. Downey: No, Madam Speaker, because I have to say that those individuals who work within my department are to be commended for the hard work and effort that they put forward without any influence politically, unlike a department that I had responsibility for when I was first elected .

This government was first elected to government in 19 88, where we had the former member of Parliament for the New Democratic Party for Selkirk working in the government, where we had the former MLA Mr. Eyler working who was a former ND P. He does not need to give me a lesson, Madam Speaker, as to political involvement in departments. * (14 30 ) Departmental Review Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister confirm that, contrary to what he told this House on Thursday, another study by another consulting firm, KPMG, in 19 94, also reviewed his department's function and found, among other things: that duplication exists in the delivery of economic development services: there is overlap in competition for clients; this lack of collaboration amongst government-funded organizations is inefficient?

1440 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1996 Will he confirm that he should have told the House about this study on Thurs day, Madam Speaker? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I did not say that there was not absolutely another study. I said I would take it under notice, and I do apologize. When making reference to fo rmer people working fo r the departments, I fo rgot that he himself was a political hack, but I am not just sure what party it was, whether he was a Liberal or NDP at that particular time. Madam Speaker: The time fo r Oral Qu�::stions has expired.

Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings fo r tht: House. On April 18 during Question Period I took under advis ement a point of order raised by the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton). His point of order concerned the fo llowing words used by the honourab le Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) : "honourable membe1rs opposite might condone threatening and intimidating actions against home care work ers, but they will not threaten or intimidate me." Having reviewed Hansard, I am ruling that strictly speaking the opposition House leader did not have a point of order.

However, I wish to give a very strong caution to the honourable Minister of Health; his words did come exceedingly close to being out of order. As well, in the minister's advice to me on the point of order on April 18 he went on to say "These people"-in reference to members of the opposition-"cannot be bullies like we see out on the streets of Winnipeg." The phrase "the honourab le Leader of the Opposition thinks that he can bully his way around here" was ruled out of order in this Chamber on October 5, and the member speaking was asked to withdraw that phrase.

I would remind the minister and indeed all members that infl ammatory language does nothing to enhance the decorum and workings of this Chamber . * * * On April22 the honourab le member fo r Kildonan (Mr.

Chomiak) raised a matter of privilege and moved "That this House do censure the Minister of Health for a breach of the privileges of its members in the matter of information made available about the privatization of home care , a misrepresentation of reports and background documents on this issue, and that this matter be ref erred to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections." In his submission on the matter, the honourab le member fo r Kildonan I believe made three points: ( 1) he al leged that the minister had said one thing in the Chamber and something else outside the Chamber in regard to the existence of reports on contracting out of home care services; (2) he alleged that a document tabled by the minister during Committee of Supply on April 19 appeared to have been altered because pages were missing; and (3) he referenced the inab il ity or incapacity of the minister to deal with issues.

In speaking to the matter of privilege, the honou rable Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) noted that when he tabled the document in question, he had told the committee that the pages were misnumbered and that the pagination was incorrect but that he had been assured by people in his department that all of the pages that were part of the original document were included in the document the minister tabled on April 19 . I have reviewed the Hansard of that day , and it confirms that the minister had clearly referenced the pagination errors in the document he was ta bling. A matter ofpri\ilege is a serious matter.

Beauche sne's Citation 26.(3) indicates that the Speaker cannot rule on a question of pri\ilege. The Speaker's function is li mited to deciding if a prima fac ie case has been established, i.e., whether the matter is of such a character as to entitle the motion, which the member who has raised the question desires to move, to priority over Orders of the Day. Beauchesne also in Citations 11 5 and 11 7 states that the matter must be brought to the attention of the House at the first possible opportunity. I am satisfied that the honourab le member fo r Kildonan (Mr.

Chomiak) did raise the matter at the earliest opportunity. That leaves us with the question of whether a prima fac ie case has been made. There are a number of Speakers' rulings on this point, but in particular I would reference the March 16, 1993, ruling which has some similarities to the matter before us at present. That ruling cites the Canadian authority on the subject of privilege,

April 29, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 41 Joseph Maingot. He clearly states that "An allegation of misleading the House is not out of order or unparliamentary; nor does it amount to a question of privilege." The ruling just referred to and several earlier ones dealing with circumstances similar to the current issue include the statement that a motion of privilege should be worded in such a way that another member is alleged to have deliberately or intentionally misled the House and that a member must support his or her charge with proof of intent.

In the arguments put forward by the honourable member for Kildonan, he did not put forward any evidence to show that the Minister of Health had deliberately misled the House or intended to do so when making statements about the existence of certain reports. As to the question of the document tabled by the minister on April 19, again there is no proof that the minister deli berately gave the House an altered document. The third point made by the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) concerned the competence of the minister.

Maingot, on page 191 of his book Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, says ". . . allegations of misjudgment, or mismanagement or maladministration on the part of a Minister in the performance of his ministerial duties do not come within the purview of parliamentary privilege." For these reasons I must rule that the honourable member for Kildonan has failed to establish a prima facie case of privilege. * (1 440) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Brandon Wheat Kings Mr.

Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, as many of our members know, Manitoba is home to one of the most successful organizations in the West ern Hockey League. Of course I speak of the Brandon Wheat Kings. What members of the Legislature may not be familiar with is the fact that 17 members of the Wheat Kings call Manitoba home. Madam Speaker, in a day when hockey has become a truly international sport and where teams often have many players on their roster from overseas, it is truly notable that they have this level of talent from our own province on a team as skillful as the Wheat Kings.

The players of whom I speak are: from Winnipeg, Justin Kurtz, Bobby Brown, Dorian Anneck, Mike Leclerc, Cory Cyrenne, Mark Dutiaume; from Thompson, Vinnie Jonasson and Stefan Cherneski; from Brandon, Jeff Temple and Daryl Stockham; also Brian Elder from Oak Lake, David Haun from Solsgirth, Daniel Tetrault from La Broquerie, Sven Butenschon from Oakbank, Burke Henry from Ste. Rose, Kelly Smart from McAuley, Ryan Robson from Russell. Theses young men are representing our province well as they travel to various locations in western Canada and the northwest United States.

Represented in each one of these individuals is a dedication of commitment each has invested to reach this level of sport, and they are to be congratulated. However, equal recognition should also be given to the parents of these young Manitobans for the countless hours of encouragement and support they gave so that they could reach such a high level of achievement. We need more parents in society of the ones I speak. The world would be a much better place. This past winter, these parents of these young hockey players have ventured out under severe conditions to support these young men and their team.

It is for this reason that I ask all members of this Assembly to join me in congratulating these parents on this dedication and loyalty to their children and their team. I would also ask honourable members to join me in wishing Manitoba's Brandon Wheat Kings, under the coaching of Bobby Lowes and the management of Kelly McCrimmon, well in their bid to bring the Memorial Cup to Manitoba in 19 96. W apusk National Park Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, I, too, have a statement for the House.

Last week, I was pleased to attend the official signing of the new national park, the Wapusk National Park in Churchill, along with the Minister ofNa tural Resources (Mr. Driedger) and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Praznik). This park will be a major effort not only for the North but also for the entire province. First Nations people have been involved with the development of this park since 19 89. This park not only

14 42 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri129, 19 96 protects an area that has special meaning for northern Manit obans, but it also recognizes existing treaty and abori ginal rights through renewable resource use of the parkland. Traditional land uses will continue in the park. Treaty land entitlement is also being respected and the management board of the park consists of representatives from the LGD of Churchill, the First Nations of Fox Lake, York Factory, the Province of Manitoba and the federal government.

There is a commitment that 75 percent or more of the park jobs will be held by northern residents and that northern businesses will have first consideration in terms of park businesses and services, and the Akjuit space proje ct will not be affected by the park. Quite simply, this park is a model of how parks should be created. The contrast between the launching of this park compared to the four new provincial parks that were announced last year in northern Manitoba is truly remarkab le.

My congratulations to the working committee, to the former mayor, Doug Webber, the current mayor, Mayor Michael Spence for his hospitality, as well as to Rod McKenzie, the emcee, and most certainly to Chief Norman Kirkness of Fox Lake and Chie f Eric Saunders for their hard work; also to the Minister of Natural Resources and the Mini ster of Northern Affairs, and, of course, all the residents of the town of Churchill. Thank you. Spring Flood Volunteers Mr.

Frank Pitura (Morris): Madam Speaker, as the MLA for Morris, I am keenly aware of the impact that this spring's flood has had on my constituents and, as well, some other constituencies. Most areas are expe riencing water levels that are close, if not equal, to 19 79 lev els. Closer to Winnipeg, Ste. Agathe and St. Adolphe are expecting the water to rise above the levels experienced in 19 79. What this means, Madam Speaker, is that there has been a lot of ae!ivity as people are either sandbagging their own properties or helping others who are in need.

I want to take a moment to recognize the countless vol unteers who are giving of their time and effort in selfless ways . In fact, the volunteer contribution has been overwhe lming. I acknowledge these true Manitoban s. In addition to the volunteers, I also recognize: the rural municipalities that very quickly assumed leadership roles and helped their constituents. The R.M. offices were freq uently the first place to get a phone call, and I appreciate and I think we all appreciate their preparedness.

I thank the Natural Resources staff for their great co operation and for the high level of client service and for the tireless hours they are putting in towards the needs that require attention. I also appreciate the Highways staff who have often worked around the clock helping to direct traffic and informing people who are on the roads about which hi ghways were closed and how to get to their destination. It can, Madam Speaker, be a very frustrating time when people's patience is stretched to the limit. I thank those affected for the patience they have demonstrated and for being so understanding.

I know from the people I have spoken with, any and all efforts have been greatly appreciated. It is a testament to the spirit of Manitobans that, when there is a need, there are people who are willing to give of their time. We cannot control the weather, but we can roll up our sleeves and help our neighbours To all those who have helped their neighbours. we thank you Workplace Safet�·-Role of Labour MoHments Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Sunday was a very important day for the working people of this co..ntry, Ma dam Speaker, the national day of mourning.

In Thompson we were very fortunate to have a service to commemorate this, which was attended by Alexa McDonough, national Leader of the NDP, by Gary Doer, our provincial Leader, by Mayor Bill Comaskey, and by Bob Desjarlais, the president of the United Steelworkers of America Local 616 6. Also this weekend, Madam Speaker, to mark the occas ion, we were very fortunate to have in Thompson a play called Westray, The Long Way Home, put on by the group, Two Planks and a Passi on, a theatre group from Nova Scotia, which addressed first-hand the reality of what happened in the W estray mine disaster.

Madam Speaker, as we reflect on the day of mourning and the message of the impact that that tragedy had in the

April29, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1443 province of Nova Scotia, I think it is important to recognize two things, first of all, the fact that we continue to have unsafe working conditions in this province. We have had six mining deaths in this province over the last number of years. [interjection] Mada m Speaker: Order, please. I wonder if I might ask the co-operation of all honourable members who are having private meetings at the back of the Chamber and at other members' desks, if they would return to their desks or move outside the Chamber for the meetings.

I am having great difficulty hearing the honourable member for Thompson in his member's statement. Mr. Ashton: Thank you, Madam Speaker. We have to reflect on the reality of continuing unsafe conditions in this province, and also the fact that disasters such as Westray have a very political dimension, in that province a federal Conservative and a provincial Conservative government that ignored the very clear warnings of the unsafe conditions, and I believe very much led to the 26 deaths that took place.

But there is something else that we have to reflect on, Madam Speaker, and it is something that I think was unfortunate the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews) failed to recognize in his statement on Thursday, when not once in his statement to the House, on the day of mourning, did he mention anything about the labour movement or the important role that unions play in fighting for safe workplaces. Madam Speaker, I know for political reasons it has been the practice of this government, particularly this sess ion, to attack unions, and attack union leaders and union members.

But you know, without the union movement, the labour movement, we would not have the many kinds of improvements we have in health and safety in this province, and it is about time this government recognized it has to accept the reality of the fact that unions do speak for workers. They seek better wages. They seek better working conditions, and they are key players in getting better workplace safety and health in our workplaces. Thank you, Madam Speaker. *

(1450) Balanced Budget Mr. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, this government tabled a budget in April that demonstrated fiscal responsibility. Unlike the members opposite, this government believes in living within its means, something that my constituents readily applaud. On a broader scale, I also know that Manitobans as a whole agree the balanced budget legislation will benefit this province in the short term and in the long run, which shows, in fact, there is a vision for the future. Part of that vision requires money be put aside in case of disasters such as flood or forest fires. My people in St.

Adolphe, Ile des Chenes and Lorette, right at this point, know the devastation of flood. I received a fax recently from a group called the Manitoba Taxpayers Association. The message from this association is a simple one, deal with the debt. This association also has a message for those, the NDP and Liberals, who would like to see the surplus spent. The message is that the money is being set aside to pay for billions worth of government excess, excess that the NDP are mostly responsible for, an excess that continues to plague this province even though we have tabled the second balanced budget.

Madam Speaker, the support that we are receiving for our budget from the Manitoba Taxpayers Association is not unique. This is just another group within Manitoba that is taking a long, hard look at the fiscal directives of this government, and they approve. We want to ensure that we look at the big picture, which includes what Manitoba needs right now and what Manitoba needs in the future. This has to be offset with what Manitoba currently has available to meet those needs. It is really quite simple. It is called a balanced budget and it is called living within our means. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

ORDERS OF THE DAY Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that Madam Speaker do now le ave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

14 44 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 96 Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Health. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat it had been considering item l. (c)(

l) on page 34 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chair, I think at the end of the last time we had been asking the minister about the Council of Ministers of Education, andl she was going to table some material from that. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Chairman, I indicated at our last session here that I would table some information for the members. First of all, I have the Grade 4 mathematics Manitoba curriculum framework of outcomes and Grade 3 standards, which I had said I would bring.

As well, a question was raised regarding what we might have submitted to the Council of Ministers of Education, Second National Consultation on Education, and I have documents here on that. The member had asked, what did I hope to gain from participation in that particular consultation or at that meeting, and I am looking forward to going for a variety of reasons. One reason that is always an important reason, which has nothing to do with what the agenda is, is the opportunity for ministers of Education from the provinces and territories to gather together to discuss education in Canada.

This is particularly important, given that there is no federal Ministry of Education.

While there was a period in time when in the past ministers of Education had wanted a federal ministry, I think, as time has gone on, it has become a consensus across Canada from the ministers in each province and territory that having a council in many ways is preferable to having a central authority because the decisions that we come to for common direction in Canada then are built by consensus and are truly O\\ned by the provinces, and you fmd ministers much more willing to participate when jointly we have come to agreement on issues.

I am looking forward to attending the Second National Consultation on Education for a variety of other reasons, of course. First and foremost, the consultation involves many nongovernment organizations which truly do reflect the sentiments of the public at large. These groups will involve business, labour, cultural groups, aboriginal people, educational associations, groups concerned with women's issues, and many others. Without question, it is important to participate in a consultation process that is Pan-Canadian and representative of the public at large.

Manitoba has much to gain from collaboration and partnerships at the national level.

As you know, our province is currently involved with other provinces in a number of cost -effective joint projects, and some of these include curriculum development, the western consortia programs and Pan-Canadian science project, the assessment activities, the School Achievement Indicators program, the sharing of information and resources on aboriginal education, the sharing of information regarding teacher education renewal, transferability of teaching credentials, teacher education issues. * (150 0) Manitoba, I believe, has much to offer to the national consultation.

As the report for Manitoba outlines, our province has a comprehensive process of educational renewal already underway. Some of the areas in which Manitoba is actively involved include the outcomes based curriculum, assessment evaluation, Distance Education and Technology, and post-secondary reform. There are always other areas in \\ruch provinces can work together, and a consultation process, such as the one in Alberta, can help stimulate and support such work. I had indicated at our last get-together that one of the things we

April 29, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 14 45 hoped to do was to look for the common thread that is evident across Canada and to be able, using our own experiences as a springboard for discussion, to see if those common threads would, in fact, have application for Canadian application whereby we could co-operate and benefit from a variety of thrusts. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, I wanted to ask on this line 16. 1 (c). There is a footnote there: Reduction in nonrecurring special project support. Could the minister explain what that is? Mrs. Mcint osh: Mr.

Chairman, the total operating reduction is $85,400, as the member maybe can see at the bottom of the page. In the past, a number of designated or special projects were provided from within this branch, and some of those have been moved to another area. This branch will continue its role in department-wide policy, co-ordination in areas such as the education indicators project, Human Resource development action plan, Distance Education and Technology initiatives, credit transfer recognition, school planning and other issues of the day.

However, funding will be charged to those areas having long-term or continuing responsibilities for the outcomes of such activities. Ms. Friesen: Which sections or which programs have been removed from this area? The minister said a number had been moved to other areas. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, the education indicators project, for example, you will now see under the EIP which is 16.5( c). Management Information Services, MIS, and Human Resource development action plan is now the responsibility of each manager in that thrust, in that area.

Distance Education and Technology initiatives, School Programs Division plus MERLIN, school planning will be BEF and SPD. Credit transfer recognition is now the responsibility of post-secondary education and Advanced Ed, and you will see them being moved so they have broader application in those kinds of ways. They are not just restricted to one area now; they are more permeable. Ms. Friesen: If that is the case, why is there no change in the staff years in this division?

What are the programs that the staff are working on that would involve them in the same number of staff years when so many areas of responsibilities have been transferred? Mrs. Mcintosh: As circumstances evolve, areas of endeavour will then become, for example, as I indicated, the Human Resource development action plan under the various managers. It then becomes incorporated into those particular responsibilities and the staff then, that are doing new work, continue on again with new initiatives and new projects. Ms. Friesen: I think that was the purpose of my question.

What are the new initiatives and new projects that this same number of staff are working on? Mrs. Mcint osh: Their role, Mr. Chairman, is still that of co-ordinating and taking the lead in a variety of issues. We will see now new work being done on teacher education, on adult basic education, on aboriginal issues. We have staff doing research on teacher collective bargaining, on boundaries.

Those types of initiatives that are underway in the department, of course, require people to gathei inf ormation, make recommendations, those types of duties and assignments that are always needed when new initiatives are explored. * (1510 ) I think the member is aware of some of the new initiatives that we have undertaken because they have been the matter of some questioning in the House and some matter of public interest. Each of those areas, of course, have people working on them. Distance Education and Technology, for example, is requiring a lot of study in terms of the capabilities and trends.

The capabilities to be used for tools in the classroom or to be used for the actual delivery of education, and all of those do require staff to work upon them. They do not just happen in a vacuum. Ms. Friesen: Is this

section of the department still responsible for the Schools Information System? Mrs. Mcint osh: No. That is under MIS, 16 (5)(c). Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item l. (

c) Planning and Policy Co-ordination

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $423,20 0-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $12 3 ,800 -pass. Item 1. (

d) Human Resource Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $356,300.

14 46 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 96 Ms. Friesen: The minister suggested that some of the plans of this

section have been devolved down to regional or branch ma nagers. Could the minister tell me what the role of this department will be in career development initiatives throughout the department? Mrs. Mcintosh: That area would co-ordinate all human resource activity: recruitment, evaluation, performance, management classification, career deve:lopment, affinnative action and, of course, payroll, which is a large portion of their duties, as well. Ms. Friesen: I asked specifically about the career development initiatives, and how the department is going to handle that kind of pla nning with this devolution in place.

Mrs. Mcintosh: The Human Resource Branch has always had the responsibility for career de.-elopment, and research and planning, where this question led from, does not do the career development that has always been done by the Human Resources Branch. They have experience and methods that they have used and do use to ensure that those people working in the department are suitably capable of performing the career responsibilities assigned to them. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us what career development initiatives there are anticipated in the coming year for people in the affirmative action designation? Mrs.

Mcint osh: The Manitoba C1vil Service Commission has an Affirm ative Action handbook for managers, Putting Equity to Work, and it has a large amount of information contained in it: equity framework; foundations for equity planning, for equity building blocks; removing emplo)'ment barriers; communication strategies; workforce anal ysis; accountab ility roles and responsibilities; case law legisla tion principles; equity representation through staffmg; options and best practices; recruitment and selection; outreach recruitment; equitable distribution through employee development; executive development program for women; employee development services for designated group employees; OSD seminars and career development.

They also have , in terms of retention options and best practices, a healthy, respectful workplace, sexual harassment, acco mmodation, aborigirial support network, and they have a lot of information resources, as well. So that is the foundation handbook that our managers are working to implement. Our managers themselves will in their O\'<n performance evaluations be judged on how well they are able to put equity to work. I want to indicate first of all that I have two other staff members at the table right now that I do not believe have been introduced.

They are Jack Gillespie, who is Director of Human Resources; and Louise Ulrich, at the table this afternoon, who was part of the Civil Service Commission committee that \'<TOte the Putting Equity to Work manual, so very well versed in that particular question. * (1 52 0) Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, I think what I had anticipated was that there was a departmental plan, that there were X number of people in the affmnative action group, that the plan was t..luit so many would be taking these kinds of courses, so many would be developing their careers in these area s.

That is really what I was looking for, the departmental career development mitiative for persons in the affirmative action designated groups such as it indicates on page 28. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, we have two phases really that have been at work here. The first phase was to get a han dle on the hiring practices which I believe this government has been very successful in achieving. The second phase, then, was to look at career development for those who have been employed.

This handbook is a major step in tha t, and that has just come out in 19 96, hot off the press, so to speak, and the department is currently developing the plans the member has talked about. A good question, very timely, because they are in this department at the moment in the process of developing career plans based upon the guidelines and principles and suggestions that have come from this handb ook, to start in on how we train our managers, how we get people moving towards growing in their careers, growing and creating and achieving. It is clearly a maj or first step that will be information technology skills.

So, in short, step one has been put in

- April 29, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1447 place. Step two, phase two, to sit down to plan with the Civil Service Commission on how to train our managers and how to evolve top-notch career development initiatives, is now in the creation stage. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, so at the very minimum, next year we should be looking for a plan that is on paper and perhaps begun for the training of people in the affirmative action area in information technology. Is that what we should be looking for? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, we would hope that we would have a plan ready to implement some time in the fall. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item l.( d)(

l) Salaries and Employee Benefits $35 6, 300-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $63,6 00-pass. 1. (

e) Financial and Administrative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, I notice there has been some increase in the salaries on this line in both the managerial and the professional area and in administrative support, as well. Could the minister give us a breakdown of those increases at a time when I understand the MGEU has taken percentage cuts across the board? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, the increase is mainly due to the merit increments. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chair, does that mean that every manager, the two managers, the eight professional staff and the 11 administrative support staff all had merit increases this past year? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member for Wolseley, could you repeat your question? Ms. Friesen: Yes, sorry, Mr. Chairman. I was asking whether each of the two managerial, each of the eight professional, each of the 11 administrative support staff had merit increases this past year. Mrs. Mcintosh: No, not all did receive a merit increment. Some did. Some did not.

One other factor that affected this particular line, as well, was the accrued salaries, because the province has been migrating from a cash basis of accounting to accrual accounting-and the member may be familiar with accrual accounting-that reports salaries on an earned basis, rather than on a paid basis. This year, the '96-97 year, is the first year that the accruals are reflected at the program level rather than a central appropriation, and the effect has been to increase salary budgets by about 0. 4 percent or about $1 00.

You will see the effect of switching to an accrual method of accoun ting in that, as well, but not all did get a merit increment, just some. *

(1530) Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask about the school information system services. I am not sure what the last "S" stands for on this line. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, 16.5. (

c) is the Schools Information System. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, this

section of the department also looks at the schools funding program, administers the schools funding program, and I wanted to ask the minister here about the new agreement which has been reached with the private schools, and whether that can be tabled? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, yes, I indicated we would be pleased to table it and we will. That will come under 16.5. (d), but if you would like it today, we could probably have it up here later this afternoon. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, I would like to see that new agree ment that has been reached.

I wanted to ask the minister about the origin of that agreement, if this is the office of the assistant deputy minister which develops school funding programs, how that agreement was reached? Was it initiated by the government or was it initiated by the schools themselves? Mrs. Mcintosh: I do not have with me right now the stafii>erson that will be dealing with line 16 .5, but I can respond in general terms. If we feel a need to get into more technical detail on 16.5, then we could either wait till we get to that line or see if we can get the appropriate staff people up. I just draw that to the member's attention

14 48 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 29, 19 96 for ease of questioning and answering, that we have the right staff people here for her. But in answer to the question she has just posed, my understanding of the evolution of the agreement is that there was felt to be sort of a mutual need to have a more clear understanding of what that agreement actually meant.

That I would say would be someth ing that was considered to be a mutual decision in terms of how to express this better and how to give clearer defmition to the whole matter of independent school funding or at least for those independent schools that receive funding because, as I have indicated bef ore, they do not all receive funding. So the agreement stipulates that the maximum per pupil funding for independent schools will be calculated as 50 percent of the per pupil expenditure of public schools two years prior to the school year being funded. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chair, there were some questions that I would like to ask on that, but we will wait until the appropriate staff are here on line 16 .5. One of the areas that this

section of the department deals with is the real and perceived inequities in school funding, and I wanted to ask whether the minister had received any claims, letters, deputations, delegations from school divisions or from stakeholder groups about perceived inequities in school funding this past year? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, I think there have been two. There always are one or two on an annual basis who will indicate that they are not satisfied with the funding. It is normally not a question of equity as it is that they just want more money, but some will argue on the basis of equity.

We do each year receive advice from the Advisory Co mmittee on Educational Finance. That advisory committee has proven to be invaluable because, as the member may recall, under the last year of the NDP government the formula was so inequitable that I believe there was only one school division left that was able to be on that formula. So we had a province-wide formula that was so out of whack that every division in the province, except one, had to finally be exempt from coming under the formula. To say it was a nightmare is to make an understatement that could put it in the Guinness Book of World Records.

It was extreme dissatisfaction. What we have noticed now. and it is dramatic by comparison, is that, by and large, the vast maj ority of school divisions say that the formula now does provide the equity that it did not have under the NDP, and while there will always be one or two-I think Seven Oaks comes in every year and says, it is not equal and we want more money, but. by and large, most will say it is equitable.

Now, some will indicate that while maybe the formula is equitable, they wish that the funding had not seen a reduction overalL So they will be arguing that they would like more money from government, not because the formula is \Hong, but because they wish the block grant could be larger. Having said all that, and having indicated my great relief that I do not have to be Minister of Education administering the old NDP formula, I will also indicate that we are taking a look at the whole matter of the education formula.

As we implement the Blueprint, we want to make sure that we have the equity, the flexibility for the implementation of the Blueprint, which will include new initiatives, new directions and tech nology, and those types of things . So we will be looking at it again with a view to making sure that the new ways of deliv ering education are able to be properly addressed under the funding formula. * (1 540) Ms. Friesen: Could the minister explain the process of re-examining this formula? Who is involved in it? Are there advi sory groups, other than the one the minister has already mentioned?

Does it involve the whole spectrum of K to 12, plus adult education, plus Continuing Education, or is it more formally based upon the K to 12 system? Mrs. Mcintosh: The Schools Finance program, the funding formula for finance, is for Kindergarten to Grade 12 . The advisory committee is a single advisory committee. It will work in conjunction with the men and women hired by the government of Manitoba, because they are experts in educational financing, to develop or to reaffirm funding formulae to meet the needs of the students of Manitoba.

April 29, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 49 The advisory committee, the member should be aware, provides the widest possible consultation in that it is composed of representatives of stakeholder groups who, in tum, do wide consultations with their stakeholder groups, so that they can come to the table with their organization's perspectives for input and then come to consensus.

We have representatives of the Manitoba Teachers' Society, Manitoba Association of School Superintendents, Manitoba Association of School Trustees, Manitoba Association of School Business Officials, two citizens-at-large, one, of course, representing the Manitoba Association of Parent Councils, plus the staff of schools, plus the Finance Branch, plus input from staff at the School Programs Division. These people will make recommendations to the government on what they, as representing every stakeholder group in K to 12 education, feel should be done with the funding formula.

We value their input very much and are pleased that they are so broadly representative. Ms. Friesen: Mr Chairman, I am not sure I got all of that. MTS, MASS, MAST, MASBO, et cetera, the Parent Advisory Council representative-then I think the minister said there were two citizens. Then there was staff of schools, and then there was staff of School Programs. Was that a repetition? Who were the two citizens who sit on that committee? Mrs. Mcint osh: I indicated staff of Schools Finance Branch, and I apologize for that.

The two citizens are the president of the Association of Parent Councils, Viola Prowse-the other citizen position, at the moment, we have a vacancy, and we are currently in the process of looking to fill that. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: l. (e)(

l) Salaries and Employee Benefits $9 17 ,3 00-pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditures $19 5,8 00-pass. l. (

f) Management Inf ormation Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $559 ,000 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $330,500 -pass. 2. School Programs (

a) Division Administration

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $250,800. Ms. Friesen: We are on 16 .2(a)? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: That is right. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, I wanted to ask some questions about the linkage here to New Directions. One of the things that has concerned me about New Directions is that, intentional or not, its implications have been to narrow program opportunities in Manitoba schools.

The minister knows that I am concerned about the loss of home economics programs in a number of Manitoba schools, particularly in rural areas, and the prospects for the losses of those types of programs, particularly at the middle school level. We are talking here of French, of music, of industrial arts and home economics, the areas where I think New Directions, combined with the funding cuts, have put school divisions in a very difficult bind.

One of the ways in which they have responded to the minister's requirements for increased timetabling amounts and the minister's reductions in funding has been to reduce some of these programs. We can see it now very clearly in the home economics area. I know the minister's response is to say these are local choices, but what we are getting as a result of these local choices is a school system which is inequitable. Areas which were able to offer that in the past now no longer are able to offer it for whatever reason. I think it is in many areas a combination of reasons.

So there are opportunities available for some children in some areas but not in others, and as schools under New Directions move to essentially much more atomized, much more individualized kinds of schools, I am concerned about a system which is losing that sense of system-wide opportunities. So that is one of my concerns about New Directions that it has narrowed the choices for many students. I want to ask the minister for some comments on that in the future.

Does she see that as one of the new directions, in fact, that the emphasis on what in popular terms is called back to basics, in eff ect, has meant fewer choices for Manitoba students. In some cases those choices-and, again, I am speaking particularly in the context of home economics-do not seem to me to make economic sense. One of the strategic areas for Manitoba is a garment industry, one of the areas where students become interested in careers and many aspects of the garment

14 50 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 96 industry whether it is in computer-aided design, whether it is in clothing construction, whether it is in textiles, or whether it is actually in the design of textiles themselves, those all begin, it seems to me, in the home economics classroom. A secondary, I think, for home economics is fiunily life studies. Although I know that there are perhaps old images of home economics which do not see it in that broader context.

Certainly the recent home economics curriculum and the one that people had anticipated would be there for students in Grades 7 and 8 and through in many cases to Senior 4 dealt with family life education. The other area of school experience where students had the opportunity to learn and to discuss, to prepare themselves intellectually, mentally and practically for a future family life was also in skills for independent living. For a very brief moment that was a compulsory course in Manitoba.

It has become now a noncompulsory course, and we are not sure in the future, as we look at the future, how many schools will, in fact, be able to offer that. * (1550 ) So what we are looking at, it seems to me. is the prospect of schools and divisions in Manitoba where home economics is not available. where skills for independent living may not be available. and an area I think of great importance to a community where it is clear that there are many areas of family breakdmm . It seems to me that that is a very important aspect of education.

If you talk to superintendents and schools in Manitoba, one of the things that comes through clearly is that one of the areas of increasing expense for schools is the cost of child ren who are learning disabled, not in the physical sense but who are handicapped by behaviour problems and by a breakdown in family communications and in family life, some of it economics and some of it behavioural.

It seems to me that here was one area in home economics, in a serious, progressive in the sense of advancing an educational opportunity throughout the school division and in skills for independent living, that here was an opportunity on a limited scale to try and address some of those issues which we are facing as a community. So my concerns go beyond simply the educational curriculum ones, although I am concerned about those narrowing opportunities. They also go to the larger community and to the kind of issues which have to be addressed. I am sure the minister is familiar with it, Winnipeg 1, St.

James School Division. Both ofthem have very serious costs in this area that how do we begin to address those long-term issues when we are taking away from some schools the opportunities to at least begin to address it in a formal, an academic sense, one that enables students to at least begin to prepare themselves for a different kind of future than some of them have perhaps been able to experience? Mrs. Mcinto sh: Mr. Chairman, I am just seeking clarification from the member because she is speaking as if we are making home economics not compulsory and as if that is a change.

Could she please tell me where in Manitoba home economics was compulsory? (Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, what I was speaking of was the changing conditions in Manitoba schools where schools which were once able to offer home economics, whether it be in Pine Creek School Division or in St. Boniface School Division, and there are a number ofthem-I know that the minister has been approached by the home economics teachers association and that this issue has been brought before her. The issue is that schools, which once were able to offer it, now no longer can.

It is a combination, I think, as I indicated in my question, of the minister's two-year attempt to address timetabling issues, which, I think, were put into jeopardy by the last Minister of Education as he began to put some very rigid constraints upon the number of minutes that had to be dealt with in mathematics and language education. The implications of that for school divisions across Manitoba were in the middle years that home economics, industrial arts, band, music, choral music sometimes, and basic French then became essentially choices that had to be made.

In addition, in subsequent years, there have been continuing cuts to education, and the result of that has been that school divisions have found that they have had to make final choices, that they cannot juggle those subjects an}more . In rural areas, it is partly a cost of

April29, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1451 transportation because students have to be transported from one school to another. There is a variety of reasons that these choices have been made. It is a new situation for Manitoba schools. For schools where it was available in the past, it is no longer available, and I am looking at what seems to me to be a sudden loss over the past year.

The number of school divisions which have eliminated that opportunity for their students and the number of school divisions which over the next year, in fact, will be discussing and evaluating this prospect point in a direction to me that offers fewer opportunities for young Manitobans.

Another reason, I think, has been placed before the minister by parent councils, and I think the one that I mentioned in the House was Gladstone parent council which has suggested to the minister that these are programs that are very important for students who see this as one of their reasons for remaining in school, that the practically, vocationally based aspects-and it is not the only aspect of home economics, but the vocationally based aspects of that have great value for the nature of the school and for the retention of students.

So it is on a number of areas that I am asking this question and, as I say, I know that the home economics teachers have met with the minister and that they are very concerned about this. I am looking at it in the broader context of fewer options for Manitoba students. Is this going to be the result of New Directions and of funding cuts? Is this the direction that the government is taking Manitoba schools? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the member for her answer because in her answer she has indicated to me that home economics never was compulsory, ever, and that it is still an option if parents and boards choose to wish to have it, just as it was in the past. In terms of the principle, home economics has never been compulsory, and I wish to stress that because I do believe that to some observers the way in which the member has phrased her questions it appears that she thought that it was compulsory or that she was leaving the impression inadvertently that it had been compulsory.

It has always been a choice, and it has always been a choice that has either been accepted or re jected by students and parents, and that is still the case. The member said that she wanted equality. She said that she wanted every school to be able to offer the same programs. She wants every school to have home economics, skills for independent living, music, art, phys ed. She wants every school to have those things, prac tical arts, as well. In that sense then all schools would be equal. What we are seeking is equity, and the member will probably recognize that equity and equality are not the same thing.

We are saying we want system-wide opportunities for parents to be able to do what they have told us by the hundreds in clear, unequivocal language, that they want the right to be able to choose options and not be restrained in that choice.

If a community feels that they have, for example, 4-H clubs and their students are all active in them and therefore are acquiring a lot of the skills in nutrition and textiles and things like that and they would prefer to see their students take another option in school since they feel they are acquiring these skills, through an example that has been given to me by real, live parents who are making real, live choices is that, you know, my kids are really active in 4-H and they are already learning a lot of the stuff they have learned in these options.

I would rather that my schooling for my student could more reflect my needs for my student. The member refers to things that are not in place. The member talks about timetabling problems. The member may recognize that a letter went out to all people a few months ago indicating the flexibility that has been put into timetabling as a result of direct consultation with the minister's advisory committee on the implementation of educational change and that that has been hailed with great relief, yes. *

(1600) I am glad the member is aware of it, and I wish that instead of saying that timetabling was still a problem, she had acknowledged the great relief and gratitude that the system is feeling, because to have put on the record, as she did, that timetabling was restrictive and all of those things and a terrible problem fo r the field when she knows that that is not a problem anymore and that principals have expressed relief, pleasure and optimism that they can now accommodate New Directions in a

14 52 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 19 96 more meaningful way so that parents and students can have more choices, I think it would have been probably prope r to acknowl edge that, rather than leave an impression that the past is the same as the pre:sent . School divisions make decisions based on enrollments in particular courses or on the interest the local community has expressed. That is why we have local boards ; that is why we have local school advisory committees, so that those people can make local choices.

We do not believe that every division should be a carbon copy of every other division, as the member pro poses. We do not belie ve that there needs to be identical courses, course options and items of study in every school as the member propose s.

We bel ieve that if areas have a desire to have certain courses from an approved list of options, and I indicate that the approved list of options still includes home econo mics, still includes skills for independent living, still includes music, still includes art, still includes industrial arts, still includes all those things that she would like to have compulsory in every school even if the parents fe el their students are receiv ing that education elsewhere and wish to concentrate more time on another issue.

We believe in equity for opportunity to make choices reflecting the community as opposed to equality, which forces all people to be the same, sometimes at the lowest common denominator. The issue is not as simple as the member implies because the real issues go beyond one subject or two. The issue of what do we believe is the most important in school today, we see it much more than, as the member puts it, back to the basics.

In fact, we believe we are moving forward to new ess ent ials in foundation skills, transferab le skills. ultimate outcomes of both formal and inf ormal schooling, problem solving, critical creative thinking, human relationships in all their forms, technology and communications. As far as the arts, bands, visual, et cetera, and music, we maintain these as compulsory as a group at kindergarten to Grade 6, and we have expanded them as compulsory for Grades 7 and 8. So these have been exp anded not diluted.

Again, I thilllk that is imp ortant to note for the record because the member's comments indicated there would be dec reased opportunity for these subjects when, in fact, the converse is true. Furthermore, we have empo wered parents via counci ls. We bel ieve it involved choice , and I think the member must acknow ledge if she is fair, and I believe she would like to be fair, that in today's schools, classr ooms are being called upon to deliver everything. Yet unless we lengthen the school day, the week or the school year, we instead have to make some priority choices.

We believe that a ftrst order of priority ought to be those core subjects of mathematics and language arts and social studies and science, those are the cornersto nes, plus the physical and affective subj ects up to Senior 1 of phys ical education plus up to Grade 8 of the arts. Be yond that, we believe local schools must be empowered to be able to make some choices to suit local values, belie fs, et cetera, with input from the community.

In our work with the Home Econo mics Association, we have not only provided flexibility but also recognize some of the home econom ics courses, such as family studies, which will be recognized as a graduation credit in the supplementary courses under the sciences area or the social studies area . So far from sayi ng that decreased opportunity for home econo mics is there, if students so desire it, increased opportunity can be there . But I do come back again to equality and equity and system-wide opportunities and more choices which I believe we now have.

There was a time, as well-I should indicate this so that the member is aware of the full history of things and again sees the role of her previous government in this evolution. I can recall tremendous discuss ions taking place during the '80s with school trustees. Whenever a trustee would say, you know, we really should stick to the timetable guidelines as put out by the minister, trustees would then argue-u sually, it would be new trustees ·who would say�h , I see we are supposed to have so many minutes of such and such per cycle. Why are we not abiding by this?

The answer always was, of course, there is not enough time in the school day to follow the full-time allotment assign ed to each sub ject area without extending the school day or extending the school year, so we will just ignore the guidelines. That \Vas the way education operated under the NDP. The NDP put dov.n guidelin es. Nobody followed them be cause they could not. It was impossible and nobody enf orced them doing it. Nobody said you have to follow these guidelines

April 29, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 53 So I think we are being a little more realistic and knowing that education has evolved to being a lot more than just education, we are trying to ensure that whatever we do in schools, the actual education experience, all the essential skills, is not lost as we minister to all needs and attempt to be everything to everybody. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chair, so the minister used the word "relief' which I offered to her for the changes in timetable, and it is true, as I said in the House, that it is a combination of the funding cuts and the timetabling dilemmas that the government over the past two years has placed the middle schools in. I offered the minister the word "relief' because it is exactly this that I believe schools are feeling.

For the time of the previous Minister of Education when he wanted to cut recess or offered that as an "opportunity to schools to meet his new guidelines," the protests of schools, the protests of children, the protests of parents, were that that was not the way they wanted to go. During the first, I guess, six months of this session, the same kind of protest came in to the minister from her advisory councils, from parents, from teachers, from students. Finally, the government sent out a survey and said, what do you think? How can we deal with this?

How can we deal with this difficult situation that we have created? So it is with some relief that parent councils and teachers and superintendents saw that there was, in fact, some willingness in the department to be less rigid than they had been in the previous year and a half. So, y es, I use the word relief advisedly. I am glad to see that the government finally did consult school divisions on this.

I am glad to see that the government finally saw that the rigidity which they were imposing upon the school system in the middle years was simply not going to work to the best advantage of the schools and the students and the teachers.

So I am concluding from what the minister is saying about home economics in this area that it is not the minister's concern that home economics will no longer be offered in the middle years in eight school divisions in Manitoba, that this is simply a matter of local choice, and that this kind of local choice under the constraints of both timetabling and of continuing budget cuts will continue in Manitoba. The minister would prefer to argue that there are more choices for students. I am not sure that the list has actually expanded to a very long one.

But, I think, Manitoba students would be very interested to know, those particularly in those eight divisions where they can no longer take home economics, that their choices have, in fact, been enhanced. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) I am not sure that I can see the connection or would suggest to them that their choices have been enhanced. My concerns are that as New Directions proceeds, that in other divisions, with the combination of funding cuts that continue under this government, that choices, indeed, are going to expand.

The minister has also suggested that it is system-wide decisions that she is looking for. But, in fact, New Directions puts much of the actual decision making about curriculum and curriculum choices upon the individual school rather than on the division. Individual schools may make decisions which may not be applicable for a division as a whole. The division as a whole may never get the opportunity to say, look, in this system-wide system we want to offer A, B and C in X, Y and Z schools, because many of those decisions are being made in the future.

We have not seen it yet to any extent, but in the future, and in the system that the government is setting up where schools are being atomized, being dealt with as individual units, those decisions are going to be made at the individual level. * (1610 ) There are certainly concerns amongst parents.

I know, as this is combined with school choice, that the movement of students across schools even within a division, let alone across divisions, becomes less systematic; that the availability of certain options will exist in some schools, but not in others; and that ease of movement which I think the minister has often spoken of that she would like to enhance is not necessarily going to be there in the future. So system-wide application, I am not sure, is there under the government's new system, and I would like to be assured that it is.

The minister has spoken of the involvement of local parent councils in this and of choice at the local level. I

1454 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 29, 1996 wonder if the minister is actually saying to those school trustees and those parent councils in Pine Creek and in St. Boniface and in other parts of southern Manitoba, where I know, for examp le, there have been quite large protest meetings at some of the cuts to home economics. Is the minister actually saying that in spite of the dissent that is there, that she still believes that these cuts in home economics are as a result of parents' wishes, paren ts' choices? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Chairman, I suppose the member may not be aware that there were three divisions which decided not to have home econo mics before there was any reduction in funding. I know she is trying to indicate that it is all due to funding cuts, but it is kind of hard to explain that they would make that decision bef ore any reduction in funding if her premise were corre c:t. So I do not know what she fe els was the board's rationale for making decisions there because that was done bef ore the announcement of any funding cuts in those three divisions.

However, I do maintain that decisions made by local school boards are autonomous. I do not believe that moving to autonomy is something new. School boards have always been autonomous and value their local autonomy greatly. In addition, school boards, the member may not real ize, over time have frequently put forward the request that they be allowed more decision making in the course selection for their studen ts, as have paren ts.

This whole thrust, the member must never �orget for a moment, came as a direct result of two major province wide Parents' Forums, where the parents placed this-getting back to standards and measurements and emphasis on literacy and computation-as an extremely high priority. Parents said very clearly that they were tired of schools that tried to be everything to t:verybody, jack of all trades and master of none. There was no mistaking that message.

We ran an election on that message and got very clear signals back, despi te the eff orts of many who spent millions and millions of dollars putting out the other side of the story, li terally millions of dollars putting out the other side of the story. The net result of that was very clear because I heard it at the door, and I am sure the member did. as well, that the other side of the story was not accepted.

The member keeps ref er ring to constraints on timetab ling, and she, at the same time, indicated that the school divisions fe lt relief that the constraints on timetabling had been lifted and, yet, then procee ded in her next question to continue talking about the constraints of timetab ling and wanted to know if I am on the record of wanting to see home economics dropped from school divisions . I guess I want to know, is she on the record in terms of wanting all of these courses to be taught in all schools in Manitoba?

Is she on the record of wanting extra days to accomplish this, do as they do in France and teach on Saturdays also, or is she on the record of wanting days that stretch until six o'clock, as they do in some schools, to accommodate all of the lack of time constraints that she would have? If she is not willing to see a longer s

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-25
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 25.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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